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THE REPUBLIC

By Plato

Translated by Benjamin Jowett


Contents

INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
THE REPUBLIC.
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE.
BOOK I.
BOOK II.
BOOK III.
BOOK IV.
BOOK V.
BOOK VI.
BOOK VII.
BOOK VIII.
BOOK IX.
BOOK X.

INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.

The Republic of Plato is the longest of his works with the exception of the Laws, and is certainly the greatest of them. There are nearer approaches to modern metaphysics in the Philebus and in the Sophist; the Politicus or Statesman is more ideal; the form and institutions of the State are more clearly drawn out in the Laws; as works of art, the Symposium and the Protagoras are of higher excellence. But no other Dialogue of Plato has the same largeness of view and the same perfection of style; no other shows an equal knowledge of the world, or contains more of those thoughts which are new as well as old, and not of one age only but of all. Nowhere in Plato is there a deeper irony or a greater wealth of humour or imagery, or more dramatic power. Nor in any other of his writings is the attempt made to interweave life and speculation, or to connect politics with philosophy. The Republic is the centre around which the other Dialogues may be grouped; here philosophy reaches the highest point (cp, especially in Books V, VI, VII) to which ancient thinkers ever attained. Plato among the Greeks, like Bacon among the moderns, was the first who conceived a method of knowledge, although neither of them always distinguished the bare outline or form from the substance of truth; and both of them had to be content with an abstraction of science which was not yet realized. He was the greatest metaphysical genius whom the world has seen; and in him, more than in any other ancient thinker, the germs of future knowledge are contained. The sciences of logic and psychology, which have supplied so many instruments of thought to after-ages, are based upon the analyses of Socrates and Plato. The principles of definition, the law of contradiction, the fallacy of arguing in a circle, the distinction between the essence and accidents of a thing or notion, between means and ends, between causes and conditions; also the division of the mind into the rational, concupiscent, and irascible elements, or of pleasures and desires into necessary and unnecessary—these and other great forms of thought are all of them to be found in the Republic, and were probably first invented by Plato. The greatest of all logical truths, and the one of which writers on philosophy are most apt to lose sight, the difference between words and things, has been most strenuously insisted on by him (cp. Rep.; Polit.; Cratyl. 435, 436 ff), although he has not always avoided the confusion of them in his own writings (e.g. Rep.). But he does not bind up truth in logical formulae,—logic is still veiled in metaphysics; and the science which he imagines to ‘contemplate all truth and all existence’ is very unlike the doctrine of the syllogism which Aristotle claims to have discovered (Soph. Elenchi, 33. 18).

The Republic of Plato is the longest of his works, except for the Laws, and is definitely the most significant. The Philebus and the Sophist come closer to modern metaphysics; the Politicus or Statesman is more idealistic; the form and institutions of the State are more clearly articulated in the Laws; as artistic works, the Symposium and the Protagoras are of higher quality. However, no other dialogue of Plato shares the same broad perspective and perfection of style; none exhibit an equal understanding of the world or contain as many thoughts that are both new and old, relevant across all ages. Nowhere else in Plato is there a deeper irony, richer humor, more vivid imagery, or greater dramatic power. Nor does any other of his writings attempt to weave together life and speculation or to link politics with philosophy. The Republic is the focal point around which the other dialogues can be organized; here, philosophy reaches its highest point (especially in Books V, VI, VII) that ancient thinkers ever achieved. Plato among the Greeks, like Bacon among the moderns, was the first to develop a method of knowledge, although neither of them consistently distinguished between the basic structure or form and the substance of truth; both had to settle for a level of scientific abstraction that was not yet realized. He was the greatest metaphysical genius the world has seen, and within him, more than any other ancient thinker, lie the seeds of future knowledge. The sciences of logic and psychology, which have provided numerous tools for thought to later generations, are based on the analyses of Socrates and Plato. The principles of definition, the law of contradiction, the fallacy of circular reasoning, the distinction between the essence and the accidents of a thing or idea, between means and ends, and between causes and conditions; as well as the classification of the mind into rational, appetitive, and irascible elements, or the categorization of pleasures and desires into necessary and unnecessary—these and other significant ideas can all be found in the Republic, and were likely first developed by Plato. The most crucial logical truth, which philosophy writers often overlook, is the distinction between words and things, and he has emphasized this point most strongly (see Rep.; Polit.; Cratyl. 435, 436 ff), although he hasn't always avoided confusing them in his own writings (e.g., Rep.). Yet, he doesn’t confine truth within logical formulas—logic is still cloaked in metaphysics; and the science he imagines to “contemplate all truth and all existence” is quite different from the syllogistic doctrine that Aristotle claims to have discovered (Soph. Elenchi, 33. 18).

Neither must we forget that the Republic is but the third part of a still larger design which was to have included an ideal history of Athens, as well as a political and physical philosophy. The fragment of the Critias has given birth to a world-famous fiction, second only in importance to the tale of Troy and the legend of Arthur; and is said as a fact to have inspired some of the early navigators of the sixteenth century. This mythical tale, of which the subject was a history of the wars of the Athenians against the Island of Atlantis, is supposed to be founded upon an unfinished poem of Solon, to which it would have stood in the same relation as the writings of the logographers to the poems of Homer. It would have told of a struggle for Liberty (cp. Tim. 25 C), intended to represent the conflict of Persia and Hellas. We may judge from the noble commencement of the Timaeus, from the fragment of the Critias itself, and from the third book of the Laws, in what manner Plato would have treated this high argument. We can only guess why the great design was abandoned; perhaps because Plato became sensible of some incongruity in a fictitious history, or because he had lost his interest in it, or because advancing years forbade the completion of it; and we may please ourselves with the fancy that had this imaginary narrative ever been finished, we should have found Plato himself sympathising with the struggle for Hellenic independence (cp. Laws, iii. 698 ff.), singing a hymn of triumph over Marathon and Salamis, perhaps making the reflection of Herodotus (v. 78) where he contemplates the growth of the Athenian empire—‘How brave a thing is freedom of speech, which has made the Athenians so far exceed every other state of Hellas in greatness!’ or, more probably, attributing the victory to the ancient good order of Athens and to the favor of Apollo and Athene (cp. Introd. to Critias).

We should also remember that the Republic is just one part of a much bigger plan that was meant to include an ideal history of Athens along with a political and physical philosophy. The fragment of the Critias has sparked a world-renowned story, second only in significance to the tale of Troy and the legend of Arthur, and it reportedly inspired some of the early navigators of the sixteenth century. This mythical story, which details the Athenian wars against the Island of Atlantis, is believed to be based on an unfinished poem by Solon, similar to how the works of the logographers relate to Homer's poems. It would have described a fight for freedom (cp. Tim. 25 C), meant to represent the conflict between Persia and Greece. From the grand opening of the Timaeus, the fragment of the Critias itself, and the third book of the Laws, we can see how Plato would have explored this important topic. We can only speculate why this grand project was left unfinished; perhaps Plato recognized a mismatch in a fictional history, or he lost interest, or maybe his advancing age prevented its completion. We might indulge in the idea that if this imaginary story had ever been completed, we would have seen Plato himself supporting the fight for Greek independence (cp. Laws, iii. 698 ff.), celebrating a victory over Marathon and Salamis, perhaps echoing Herodotus (v. 78) when he reflects on the rise of the Athenian empire—‘Isn’t it remarkable how freedom of speech has allowed Athenians to surpass every other state in Greece in greatness!’ or, more likely, crediting the victory to Athens' ancient good governance and to the blessings of Apollo and Athena (cp. Introd. to Critias).

Again, Plato may be regarded as the ‘captain’ (‘arhchegoz’) or leader of a goodly band of followers; for in the Republic is to be found the original of Cicero’s De Republica, of St. Augustine’s City of God, of the Utopia of Sir Thomas More, and of the numerous other imaginary States which are framed upon the same model. The extent to which Aristotle or the Aristotelian school were indebted to him in the Politics has been little recognised, and the recognition is the more necessary because it is not made by Aristotle himself. The two philosophers had more in common than they were conscious of; and probably some elements of Plato remain still undetected in Aristotle. In English philosophy too, many affinities may be traced, not only in the works of the Cambridge Platonists, but in great original writers like Berkeley or Coleridge, to Plato and his ideas. That there is a truth higher than experience, of which the mind bears witness to herself, is a conviction which in our own generation has been enthusiastically asserted, and is perhaps gaining ground. Of the Greek authors who at the Renaissance brought a new life into the world Plato has had the greatest influence. The Republic of Plato is also the first treatise upon education, of which the writings of Milton and Locke, Rousseau, Jean Paul, and Goethe are the legitimate descendants. Like Dante or Bunyan, he has a revelation of another life; like Bacon, he is profoundly impressed with the unity of knowledge; in the early Church he exercised a real influence on theology, and at the Revival of Literature on politics. Even the fragments of his words when ‘repeated at second-hand’ (Symp. 215 D) have in all ages ravished the hearts of men, who have seen reflected in them their own higher nature. He is the father of idealism in philosophy, in politics, in literature. And many of the latest conceptions of modern thinkers and statesmen, such as the unity of knowledge, the reign of law, and the equality of the sexes, have been anticipated in a dream by him.

Again, Plato can be seen as the 'captain' or leader of a strong group of followers; for in the Republic, we find the original ideas that influenced Cicero’s De Republica, St. Augustine’s City of God, Sir Thomas More’s Utopia, and numerous other imagined States created in the same spirit. The extent to which Aristotle or the Aristotelian school relied on him in the Politics has rarely been acknowledged, and this recognition is especially important since Aristotle himself did not make it. The two philosophers shared more similarities than they realized, and it’s likely that some of Plato's ideas still exist unnoticed in Aristotle's work. In English philosophy, we can also trace many connections, not only in the writings of the Cambridge Platonists but in significant original authors like Berkeley or Coleridge, back to Plato and his ideas. The belief in a truth that's greater than experience, which the mind witnesses itself, is a conviction that our generation has passionately upheld and is perhaps gaining traction. Among the Greek authors who revitalized the world during the Renaissance, Plato has had the most significant impact. Plato's Republic is also the first significant work on education, from which the writings of Milton, Locke, Rousseau, Jean Paul, and Goethe are rightful descendants. Like Dante or Bunyan, he reveals another life; like Bacon, he's deeply struck by the unity of knowledge; in the early Church, he had a substantial influence on theology, and during the Revival of Literature, on politics. Even the fragments of his words, when 'repeated second-hand,' have captivated hearts throughout ages, reflecting people's higher nature. He is the father of idealism in philosophy, politics, and literature. Many contemporary concepts held by modern thinkers and statesmen, such as the unity of knowledge, the rule of law, and gender equality, were perhaps envisioned in a dream by him.

The argument of the Republic is the search after Justice, the nature of which is first hinted at by Cephalus, the just and blameless old man—then discussed on the basis of proverbial morality by Socrates and Polemarchus—then caricatured by Thrasymachus and partially explained by Socrates—reduced to an abstraction by Glaucon and Adeimantus, and having become invisible in the individual reappears at length in the ideal State which is constructed by Socrates. The first care of the rulers is to be education, of which an outline is drawn after the old Hellenic model, providing only for an improved religion and morality, and more simplicity in music and gymnastic, a manlier strain of poetry, and greater harmony of the individual and the State. We are thus led on to the conception of a higher State, in which ‘no man calls anything his own,’ and in which there is neither ‘marrying nor giving in marriage,’ and ‘kings are philosophers’ and ‘philosophers are kings;’ and there is another and higher education, intellectual as well as moral and religious, of science as well as of art, and not of youth only but of the whole of life. Such a State is hardly to be realized in this world and quickly degenerates. To the perfect ideal succeeds the government of the soldier and the lover of honour, this again declining into democracy, and democracy into tyranny, in an imaginary but regular order having not much resemblance to the actual facts. When ‘the wheel has come full circle’ we do not begin again with a new period of human life; but we have passed from the best to the worst, and there we end. The subject is then changed and the old quarrel of poetry and philosophy which had been more lightly treated in the earlier books of the Republic is now resumed and fought out to a conclusion. Poetry is discovered to be an imitation thrice removed from the truth, and Homer, as well as the dramatic poets, having been condemned as an imitator, is sent into banishment along with them. And the idea of the State is supplemented by the revelation of a future life.

The main theme of the Republic is the pursuit of Justice, which is initially introduced by Cephalus, the honest and blameless old man. This concept is then discussed through the lens of common moral values by Socrates and Polemarchus, parodied by Thrasymachus, and partially clarified by Socrates. Glaucon and Adeimantus abstract it further, and after becoming less visible in individuals, it ultimately reemerges in the ideal State that Socrates constructs. The rulers' primary focus is education, outlined after the classic Hellenic model, which emphasizes improved religion and morality, as well as simpler music and athletics, a more masculine style of poetry, and a greater alignment between the individual and the State. This leads us to the idea of a higher State, where “no one claims anything as their own,” and where there is “neither marrying nor giving in marriage,” where “kings are philosophers” and “philosophers are kings.” It includes a more advanced form of education that is intellectual, moral, and religious, covering both science and art and spanning all of life, not just youth. Such a State is unlikely to be realized in our world and tends to quickly decline. Following the ideal, we see the governance of soldiers and those who seek honor, which then deteriorates into democracy, and democracy eventually turns into tyranny, progressing in a hypothetical but systematic order that doesn't closely reflect reality. When “the wheel has come full circle,” we don’t start anew with a fresh chapter of human life; instead, we transition from the best state to the worst, and that’s where we conclude. The topic then shifts, and the old debate between poetry and philosophy, which was addressed more lightly in the earlier books of the Republic, is now revisited and resolved. Poetry is found to be a representation that is three times removed from the truth, and both Homer and the dramatic poets are condemned as imitators and subsequently exiled alongside them. Additionally, the idea of the State is enhanced by the revelation of an afterlife.

The division into books, like all similar divisions (Cp. Sir G.C. Lewis in the Classical Museum, vol. ii. p 1.), is probably later than the age of Plato. The natural divisions are five in number;—(1) Book I and the first half of Book II down to the paragraph beginning, ‘I had always admired the genius of Glaucon and Adeimantus,’ which is introductory; the first book containing a refutation of the popular and sophistical notions of justice, and concluding, like some of the earlier Dialogues, without arriving at any definite result. To this is appended a restatement of the nature of justice according to common opinion, and an answer is demanded to the question—What is justice, stripped of appearances? The second division (2) includes the remainder of the second and the whole of the third and fourth books, which are mainly occupied with the construction of the first State and the first education. The third division (3) consists of the fifth, sixth, and seventh books, in which philosophy rather than justice is the subject of enquiry, and the second State is constructed on principles of communism and ruled by philosophers, and the contemplation of the idea of good takes the place of the social and political virtues. In the eighth and ninth books (4) the perversions of States and of the individuals who correspond to them are reviewed in succession; and the nature of pleasure and the principle of tyranny are further analysed in the individual man. The tenth book (5) is the conclusion of the whole, in which the relations of philosophy to poetry are finally determined, and the happiness of the citizens in this life, which has now been assured, is crowned by the vision of another.

The division into books, like all similar separations (See Sir G.C. Lewis in the Classical Museum, vol. ii. p 1.), likely happened after Plato's time. There are naturally five divisions: (1) Book I and the first half of Book II up to the paragraph starting with, ‘I had always admired the genius of Glaucon and Adeimantus,’ which serves as an introduction; the first book includes a critique of popular and sophistical ideas of justice and ends, like some earlier Dialogues, without reaching a definitive conclusion. This is followed by a restatement of the common view of justice, and a question is posed—What is justice, stripped of appearances? The second division (2) encompasses the rest of the second book and all of the third and fourth books, focusing mainly on building the first State and its initial education. The third division (3) includes the fifth, sixth, and seventh books, where the focus shifts from justice to philosophy, constructing the second State based on communist principles governed by philosophers, and prioritizing the idea of good over social and political virtues. In the eighth and ninth books (4), the distortions of States and their corresponding individuals are examined in order; the nature of pleasure and the principle of tyranny are further analyzed in the individual person. The tenth book (5) serves as the conclusion, where the relationship between philosophy and poetry is finally clarified, and the happiness of citizens in this life, now secured, is completed by the vision of another.

Or a more general division into two parts may be adopted; the first (Books I - IV) containing the description of a State framed generally in accordance with Hellenic notions of religion and morality, while in the second (Books V - X) the Hellenic State is transformed into an ideal kingdom of philosophy, of which all other governments are the perversions. These two points of view are really opposed, and the opposition is only veiled by the genius of Plato. The Republic, like the Phaedrus (see Introduction to Phaedrus), is an imperfect whole; the higher light of philosophy breaks through the regularity of the Hellenic temple, which at last fades away into the heavens. Whether this imperfection of structure arises from an enlargement of the plan; or from the imperfect reconcilement in the writer’s own mind of the struggling elements of thought which are now first brought together by him; or, perhaps, from the composition of the work at different times—are questions, like the similar question about the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are worth asking, but which cannot have a distinct answer. In the age of Plato there was no regular mode of publication, and an author would have the less scruple in altering or adding to a work which was known only to a few of his friends. There is no absurdity in supposing that he may have laid his labours aside for a time, or turned from one work to another; and such interruptions would be more likely to occur in the case of a long than of a short writing. In all attempts to determine the chronological order of the Platonic writings on internal evidence, this uncertainty about any single Dialogue being composed at one time is a disturbing element, which must be admitted to affect longer works, such as the Republic and the Laws, more than shorter ones. But, on the other hand, the seeming discrepancies of the Republic may only arise out of the discordant elements which the philosopher has attempted to unite in a single whole, perhaps without being himself able to recognise the inconsistency which is obvious to us. For there is a judgment of after ages which few great writers have ever been able to anticipate for themselves. They do not perceive the want of connexion in their own writings, or the gaps in their systems which are visible enough to those who come after them. In the beginnings of literature and philosophy, amid the first efforts of thought and language, more inconsistencies occur than now, when the paths of speculation are well worn and the meaning of words precisely defined. For consistency, too, is the growth of time; and some of the greatest creations of the human mind have been wanting in unity. Tried by this test, several of the Platonic Dialogues, according to our modern ideas, appear to be defective, but the deficiency is no proof that they were composed at different times or by different hands. And the supposition that the Republic was written uninterruptedly and by a continuous effort is in some degree confirmed by the numerous references from one part of the work to another.

Or a broader division into two parts can be made; the first (Books I - IV) includes a description of a State generally based on Greek ideas of religion and morality, while the second (Books V - X) presents the Greek State as an ideal kingdom of philosophy, showing that all other governments are distortions. These two perspectives are actually opposed, and this opposition is only masked by Plato’s brilliance. The Republic, like the Phaedrus (see Introduction to Phaedrus), is an imperfect whole; the deeper insights of philosophy break through the neatness of the Greek temple, which ultimately fades into the heavens. Whether this structural imperfection is due to an expansion of the plan; or from the writer’s struggle to reconcile conflicting thoughts he’s now bringing together for the first time; or perhaps because the work was compiled at different times—these are questions, similar to those concerning the Iliad and the Odyssey, that are worth raising, but cannot be clearly answered. In Plato’s time, there was no standard way of publishing, and an author would feel less hesitation in revising or adding to a work known only to a few friends. It’s not unreasonable to think that he might have set his work aside for a while or shifted focus between different writings; such breaks are more likely in lengthy texts than shorter ones. In attempts to establish the chronological order of Plato's writings based on internal evidence, this uncertainty about whether any single Dialogue was completed in one sitting is a complicating factor, affecting longer works like the Republic and the Laws more than shorter ones. However, the apparent inconsistencies in the Republic might simply result from the conflicting elements the philosopher has tried to unify as a whole, perhaps without recognizing the contradictions that are clear to us. After all, history often judges writers in ways they couldn’t foresee. They may not realize the disconnects in their own works or the gaps in their systems that are evident to later readers. In the early days of literature and philosophy, during the initial struggles with thought and language, more inconsistencies occurred than today, when the paths of speculation are well-trodden and words are precisely defined. Consistency, too, develops over time; and some of the greatest creations of the human mind lack unity. Judged by this standard, many of the Platonic Dialogues seem imperfect according to our modern views, but this doesn’t prove they were written at different times or by different authors. The idea that the Republic was written continuously and in a single effort is somewhat supported by the many references from one part of the work to another.

The second title, ‘Concerning Justice,’ is not the one by which the Republic is quoted, either by Aristotle or generally in antiquity, and, like the other second titles of the Platonic Dialogues, may therefore be assumed to be of later date. Morgenstern and others have asked whether the definition of justice, which is the professed aim, or the construction of the State is the principal argument of the work. The answer is, that the two blend in one, and are two faces of the same truth; for justice is the order of the State, and the State is the visible embodiment of justice under the conditions of human society. The one is the soul and the other is the body, and the Greek ideal of the State, as of the individual, is a fair mind in a fair body. In Hegelian phraseology the state is the reality of which justice is the idea. Or, described in Christian language, the kingdom of God is within, and yet developes into a Church or external kingdom; ‘the house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,’ is reduced to the proportions of an earthly building. Or, to use a Platonic image, justice and the State are the warp and the woof which run through the whole texture. And when the constitution of the State is completed, the conception of justice is not dismissed, but reappears under the same or different names throughout the work, both as the inner law of the individual soul, and finally as the principle of rewards and punishments in another life. The virtues are based on justice, of which common honesty in buying and selling is the shadow, and justice is based on the idea of good, which is the harmony of the world, and is reflected both in the institutions of states and in motions of the heavenly bodies (cp. Tim. 47). The Timaeus, which takes up the political rather than the ethical side of the Republic, and is chiefly occupied with hypotheses concerning the outward world, yet contains many indications that the same law is supposed to reign over the State, over nature, and over man.

The second title, 'Concerning Justice,' isn't the title by which the Republic is referenced, either by Aristotle or in general in ancient times. Like other second titles of the Platonic Dialogues, it’s likely a later addition. Scholars like Morgenstern have debated whether the definition of justice, which the work claims to pursue, or the structure of the State is the main focus. The answer is that these two concepts are intertwined; they are two aspects of the same truth. Justice represents the order of the State, and the State reflects justice in human society. One is like the soul, and the other is like the body. The Greek ideal of the State, similar to that of the individual, is a just mind in a just body. In Hegelian terms, the State is the reality of which justice is the concept. In Christian terminology, the kingdom of God exists within us but also manifests as a Church or an external kingdom; 'the house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,' is scaled down to fit the dimensions of a physical building. To use a Platonic analogy, justice and the State are the threads that run through the entire fabric. And once the State is fully developed, the concept of justice doesn't just vanish; it recurs under the same or different titles throughout the work, serving as the inner law of the individual soul and ultimately as the principle of rewards and punishments in the afterlife. Virtues are grounded in justice, with basic honesty in transactions as its reflection, while justice is rooted in the idea of the good, representing the harmony of the universe, which is mirrored in state institutions and the movements of celestial bodies (cp. Tim. 47). The Timaeus, which addresses the political rather than the ethical aspects of the Republic and focuses mainly on hypotheses about the external world, still suggests that the same law governs the State, nature, and humanity.

Too much, however, has been made of this question both in ancient and modern times. There is a stage of criticism in which all works, whether of nature or of art, are referred to design. Now in ancient writings, and indeed in literature generally, there remains often a large element which was not comprehended in the original design. For the plan grows under the author’s hand; new thoughts occur to him in the act of writing; he has not worked out the argument to the end before he begins. The reader who seeks to find some one idea under which the whole may be conceived, must necessarily seize on the vaguest and most general. Thus Stallbaum, who is dissatisfied with the ordinary explanations of the argument of the Republic, imagines himself to have found the true argument ‘in the representation of human life in a State perfected by justice, and governed according to the idea of good.’ There may be some use in such general descriptions, but they can hardly be said to express the design of the writer. The truth is, that we may as well speak of many designs as of one; nor need anything be excluded from the plan of a great work to which the mind is naturally led by the association of ideas, and which does not interfere with the general purpose. What kind or degree of unity is to be sought after in a building, in the plastic arts, in poetry, in prose, is a problem which has to be determined relatively to the subject-matter. To Plato himself, the enquiry ‘what was the intention of the writer,’ or ‘what was the principal argument of the Republic’ would have been hardly intelligible, and therefore had better be at once dismissed (cp. the Introduction to the Phaedrus).

However, too much has been made of this question both in ancient and modern times. There comes a point in criticism where all works, whether they are from nature or art, are viewed through the lens of design. In ancient writings, and indeed in literature overall, there often remains a significant element that was not part of the original design. The plan develops as the author writes; new ideas come to them while they're working; they haven't fully fleshed out the argument before they start. A reader looking for a single idea that encompasses the whole must resort to the broadest and most general concept. For example, Stallbaum, who is unhappy with the usual interpretations of the argument in the Republic, believes he has found the true argument ‘in the representation of human life in a State perfected by justice, and governed according to the idea of good.’ While such general descriptions might have some value, they can hardly be said to capture the author’s design. The reality is, it's just as valid to speak of many designs as it is to speak of one; nothing needs to be excluded from the framework of a major work that the mind naturally connects through the association of ideas, provided it doesn't disrupt the overall purpose. The question of what kind or level of unity should be aimed for in architecture, the plastic arts, poetry, or prose is a challenge that needs to be addressed in relation to the specific subject matter. For Plato himself, the question ‘what was the intention of the writer,’ or ‘what was the main argument of the Republic’ would likely have been quite unclear, and thus it's probably best to set it aside (see the Introduction to the Phaedrus).

Is not the Republic the vehicle of three or four great truths which, to Plato’s own mind, are most naturally represented in the form of the State? Just as in the Jewish prophets the reign of Messiah, or ‘the day of the Lord,’ or the suffering Servant or people of God, or the ‘Sun of righteousness with healing in his wings’ only convey, to us at least, their great spiritual ideals, so through the Greek State Plato reveals to us his own thoughts about divine perfection, which is the idea of good—like the sun in the visible world;—about human perfection, which is justice—about education beginning in youth and continuing in later years—about poets and sophists and tyrants who are the false teachers and evil rulers of mankind—about ‘the world’ which is the embodiment of them—about a kingdom which exists nowhere upon earth but is laid up in heaven to be the pattern and rule of human life. No such inspired creation is at unity with itself, any more than the clouds of heaven when the sun pierces through them. Every shade of light and dark, of truth, and of fiction which is the veil of truth, is allowable in a work of philosophical imagination. It is not all on the same plane; it easily passes from ideas to myths and fancies, from facts to figures of speech. It is not prose but poetry, at least a great part of it, and ought not to be judged by the rules of logic or the probabilities of history. The writer is not fashioning his ideas into an artistic whole; they take possession of him and are too much for him. We have no need therefore to discuss whether a State such as Plato has conceived is practicable or not, or whether the outward form or the inward life came first into the mind of the writer. For the practicability of his ideas has nothing to do with their truth; and the highest thoughts to which he attains may be truly said to bear the greatest ‘marks of design’—justice more than the external frame-work of the State, the idea of good more than justice. The great science of dialectic or the organisation of ideas has no real content; but is only a type of the method or spirit in which the higher knowledge is to be pursued by the spectator of all time and all existence. It is in the fifth, sixth, and seventh books that Plato reaches the ‘summit of speculation,’ and these, although they fail to satisfy the requirements of a modern thinker, may therefore be regarded as the most important, as they are also the most original, portions of the work.

Isn't the Republic the vehicle for three or four big truths that, in Plato’s mind, are best represented through the State? Just as the Jewish prophets talk about the reign of the Messiah, the ‘day of the Lord,’ the suffering Servant, or the people of God, conveying their significant spiritual ideals, Plato uses the Greek State to express his ideas about divine perfection, which he equates with the idea of good—like the sun in the visible world; about human perfection, which he sees as justice; about education starting in youth and continuing into adulthood; about poets, sophists, and tyrants who are the false teachers and evil rulers of humanity; about ‘the world,’ which represents these ideas; and about a kingdom that doesn’t exist on Earth but is stored in heaven as the model and guideline for human life. No inspired creation achieves unity, just like the clouds in the sky when the sun shines through them. Every nuance of light and dark, truth and fiction (which is the mask for truth) is acceptable in a work of philosophical imagination. It doesn’t all exist on the same level; it easily shifts from concepts to myths and fantasies, from facts to figures of speech. Much of it is poetry, not prose, and shouldn't be assessed by logic or historical probabilities. The writer isn’t shaping his ideas into a cohesive piece; instead, they overwhelm him and take over. Therefore, we don’t need to debate whether a State like Plato imagined is practical or whether the outer structure or the inner essence came first in the writer's mind. The feasibility of his ideas doesn’t affect their truth; and the highest thoughts he reaches can truly be said to have the greatest ‘marks of design’—justice is more significant than the external framework of the State, and the idea of good is more important than justice. The major discipline of dialectic or organizing ideas doesn’t have real substance; it’s just a representation of the way or spirit in which higher knowledge should be pursued by someone observing all of time and existence. In the fifth, sixth, and seventh books, Plato reaches the ‘peak of speculation,’ and even though they don’t meet the standards of modern thought, these parts can be seen as the most significant because they are also the most original sections of the work.

It is not necessary to discuss at length a minor question which has been raised by Boeckh, respecting the imaginary date at which the conversation was held (the year 411 B.C. which is proposed by him will do as well as any other); for a writer of fiction, and especially a writer who, like Plato, is notoriously careless of chronology (cp. Rep., Symp., 193 A, etc.), only aims at general probability. Whether all the persons mentioned in the Republic could ever have met at any one time is not a difficulty which would have occurred to an Athenian reading the work forty years later, or to Plato himself at the time of writing (any more than to Shakespeare respecting one of his own dramas); and need not greatly trouble us now. Yet this may be a question having no answer ‘which is still worth asking,’ because the investigation shows that we cannot argue historically from the dates in Plato; it would be useless therefore to waste time in inventing far-fetched reconcilements of them in order to avoid chronological difficulties, such, for example, as the conjecture of C.F. Hermann, that Glaucon and Adeimantus are not the brothers but the uncles of Plato (cp. Apol. 34 A), or the fancy of Stallbaum that Plato intentionally left anachronisms indicating the dates at which some of his Dialogues were written.

There's no need to delve deeply into a minor issue raised by Boeckh regarding the fictional date of the conversation (the year 411 B.C. that he suggests is just as valid as any other); because a fiction writer, and especially one like Plato, who is known for being careless with timelines (see Rep., Symp., 193 A, etc.), is primarily focused on general plausibility. Whether all the characters mentioned in the Republic could have realistically met at the same time wouldn’t have been a concern for an Athenian reading the work forty years later, nor for Plato himself when he was writing it (just as it wouldn't be for Shakespeare regarding one of his plays); therefore, it shouldn't significantly trouble us now. However, this might be a question without a definitive answer 'that is still worth asking,' since the inquiry reveals that we can’t draw historical conclusions from the dates in Plato; it’s pointless to spend time trying to create convoluted reconciliations to sidestep chronological issues, such as the speculation by C.F. Hermann that Glaucon and Adeimantus are not Plato's brothers but his uncles (see Apol. 34 A), or Stallbaum's notion that Plato purposefully included anachronisms to indicate the dates when some of his Dialogues were written.

The principal characters in the Republic are Cephalus, Polemarchus, Thrasymachus, Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Cephalus appears in the introduction only, Polemarchus drops at the end of the first argument, and Thrasymachus is reduced to silence at the close of the first book. The main discussion is carried on by Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Among the company are Lysias (the orator) and Euthydemus, the sons of Cephalus and brothers of Polemarchus, an unknown Charmantides—these are mute auditors; also there is Cleitophon, who once interrupts, where, as in the Dialogue which bears his name, he appears as the friend and ally of Thrasymachus.

The main characters in the Republic are Cephalus, Polemarchus, Thrasymachus, Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Cephalus only appears in the introduction, Polemarchus exits at the end of the first argument, and Thrasymachus is silenced by the end of the first book. The main conversation is between Socrates, Glaucon, and Adeimantus. Also present are Lysias (the orator) and Euthydemus, the sons of Cephalus and brothers of Polemarchus, along with an unknown Charmantides—who are quiet listeners; there’s also Cleitophon, who interjects once, where, as in the Dialogue that carries his name, he acts as Thrasymachus's friend and ally.

Cephalus, the patriarch of the house, has been appropriately engaged in offering a sacrifice. He is the pattern of an old man who has almost done with life, and is at peace with himself and with all mankind. He feels that he is drawing nearer to the world below, and seems to linger around the memory of the past. He is eager that Socrates should come to visit him, fond of the poetry of the last generation, happy in the consciousness of a well-spent life, glad at having escaped from the tyranny of youthful lusts. His love of conversation, his affection, his indifference to riches, even his garrulity, are interesting traits of character. He is not one of those who have nothing to say, because their whole mind has been absorbed in making money. Yet he acknowledges that riches have the advantage of placing men above the temptation to dishonesty or falsehood. The respectful attention shown to him by Socrates, whose love of conversation, no less than the mission imposed upon him by the Oracle, leads him to ask questions of all men, young and old alike, should also be noted. Who better suited to raise the question of justice than Cephalus, whose life might seem to be the expression of it? The moderation with which old age is pictured by Cephalus as a very tolerable portion of existence is characteristic, not only of him, but of Greek feeling generally, and contrasts with the exaggeration of Cicero in the De Senectute. The evening of life is described by Plato in the most expressive manner, yet with the fewest possible touches. As Cicero remarks (Ep. ad Attic. iv. 16), the aged Cephalus would have been out of place in the discussion which follows, and which he could neither have understood nor taken part in without a violation of dramatic propriety (cp. Lysimachus in the Laches).

Cephalus, the head of the household, is busy making a sacrifice. He represents an elderly man who is nearing the end of his life and feels at peace with himself and everyone around him. He senses he is getting closer to the afterlife and tends to reflect on the past. He is eager for Socrates to visit him, enjoys the poetry from the previous generation, and feels happy about his well-lived life, relieved to have escaped the burdens of youthful desires. His love for conversation, warmth, indifference to wealth, and even his tendency to chatter are all fascinating aspects of his character. He isn’t someone who has nothing to say because he has been too focused on making money. However, he recognizes that wealth does help people resist the temptation of dishonesty or deceit. It’s worth noting the respectful attention Socrates pays to him, driven by his love for conversation and the mission given to him by the Oracle, compelling him to ask questions of everyone, young and old. Who better to explore the topic of justice than Cephalus, whose life seems to embody it? The way Cephalus describes old age as a manageable phase of life reflects not only his perspective but also the general Greek sentiment, contrasting sharply with Cicero's exaggerations in the De Senectute. Plato portrays the twilight years of life with striking clarity and minimal detail. As Cicero points out (Ep. ad Attic. iv. 16), the elderly Cephalus would feel out of place in the ensuing discussion, which he wouldn’t have been able to understand or participate in without breaking the dramatic flow (see Lysimachus in the Laches).

His ‘son and heir’ Polemarchus has the frankness and impetuousness of youth; he is for detaining Socrates by force in the opening scene, and will not ‘let him off’ on the subject of women and children. Like Cephalus, he is limited in his point of view, and represents the proverbial stage of morality which has rules of life rather than principles; and he quotes Simonides (cp. Aristoph. Clouds) as his father had quoted Pindar. But after this he has no more to say; the answers which he makes are only elicited from him by the dialectic of Socrates. He has not yet experienced the influence of the Sophists like Glaucon and Adeimantus, nor is he sensible of the necessity of refuting them; he belongs to the pre-Socratic or pre-dialectical age. He is incapable of arguing, and is bewildered by Socrates to such a degree that he does not know what he is saying. He is made to admit that justice is a thief, and that the virtues follow the analogy of the arts. From his brother Lysias (contra Eratosth.) we learn that he fell a victim to the Thirty Tyrants, but no allusion is here made to his fate, nor to the circumstance that Cephalus and his family were of Syracusan origin, and had migrated from Thurii to Athens.

His ‘son and heir’ Polemarchus has the openness and impulsiveness of youth; he tries to force Socrates to stay in the opening scene and won’t let him off the hook when it comes to talking about women and children. Like Cephalus, he has a narrow perspective and represents a typical stage of morality that has rules for living instead of underlying principles; he quotes Simonides, just as his father had referenced Pindar. But after this, he doesn’t have much to say; the responses he gives are only drawn out of him through Socrates’ questioning. He hasn’t yet been influenced by the Sophists like Glaucon and Adeimantus, nor does he understand the need to refute them; he belongs to a time before the Sophists or formal debate. He can’t argue well and becomes so confused by Socrates that he doesn’t even know what he’s saying. He ends up admitting that justice is a thief and that virtues relate to the arts in a similar way. From his brother Lysias, we learn that he became a victim of the Thirty Tyrants, but nothing is mentioned here about his fate or the fact that Cephalus and his family were originally from Syracuse and had moved from Thurii to Athens.

The ‘Chalcedonian giant,’ Thrasymachus, of whom we have already heard in the Phaedrus, is the personification of the Sophists, according to Plato’s conception of them, in some of their worst characteristics. He is vain and blustering, refusing to discourse unless he is paid, fond of making an oration, and hoping thereby to escape the inevitable Socrates; but a mere child in argument, and unable to foresee that the next ‘move’ (to use a Platonic expression) will ‘shut him up.’ He has reached the stage of framing general notions, and in this respect is in advance of Cephalus and Polemarchus. But he is incapable of defending them in a discussion, and vainly tries to cover his confusion with banter and insolence. Whether such doctrines as are attributed to him by Plato were really held either by him or by any other Sophist is uncertain; in the infancy of philosophy serious errors about morality might easily grow up—they are certainly put into the mouths of speakers in Thucydides; but we are concerned at present with Plato’s description of him, and not with the historical reality. The inequality of the contest adds greatly to the humour of the scene. The pompous and empty Sophist is utterly helpless in the hands of the great master of dialectic, who knows how to touch all the springs of vanity and weakness in him. He is greatly irritated by the irony of Socrates, but his noisy and imbecile rage only lays him more and more open to the thrusts of his assailant. His determination to cram down their throats, or put ‘bodily into their souls’ his own words, elicits a cry of horror from Socrates. The state of his temper is quite as worthy of remark as the process of the argument. Nothing is more amusing than his complete submission when he has been once thoroughly beaten. At first he seems to continue the discussion with reluctance, but soon with apparent good-will, and he even testifies his interest at a later stage by one or two occasional remarks. When attacked by Glaucon he is humorously protected by Socrates ‘as one who has never been his enemy and is now his friend.’ From Cicero and Quintilian and from Aristotle’s Rhetoric we learn that the Sophist whom Plato has made so ridiculous was a man of note whose writings were preserved in later ages. The play on his name which was made by his contemporary Herodicus (Aris. Rhet.), ‘thou wast ever bold in battle,’ seems to show that the description of him is not devoid of verisimilitude.

The 'Chalcedonian giant,' Thrasymachus, whom we've already heard about in the Phaedrus, represents the Sophists in Plato's view, showcasing some of their worst traits. He is arrogant and loud, refusing to engage in conversation unless he's paid, loves to deliver speeches, and hopes to avoid the inevitable challenge from Socrates; yet he is basically a child when it comes to argument and can't anticipate that the next ‘move’ (to use a Platonic term) will 'shut him up.' He has advanced to the point of forming general ideas, which puts him ahead of Cephalus and Polemarchus. However, he can't defend these ideas in a discussion, trying in vain to mask his confusion with jokes and arrogance. Whether the doctrines Plato attributes to him were genuinely held by him or any other Sophist is uncertain; in the early days of philosophy, serious misunderstandings about morality could easily arise—they certainly appear in the speeches of Thucydides. But for now, we focus on Plato's portrayal of him rather than historical facts. The mismatch in this contest adds greatly to the humor of the scene. The pompous and superficial Sophist is completely at a loss against the great master of dialectic, who knows just how to exploit all his vanities and weaknesses. He becomes very irritated by Socrates' irony, but his loud and foolish anger only exposes him further to the jabs of his opponent. His insistence on forcing his words "down their throats" or "bodily into their souls" makes Socrates cry out in horror. His emotional state is as noteworthy as the argument itself. Nothing is funnier than his complete submission after being thoroughly beaten. At first, he seems to engage in the discussion reluctantly, but soon he appears eager, even showing interest later on with a few comments. When Glaucon attacks him, he is humorously defended by Socrates 'as someone who has never been his enemy and is now his friend.' From Cicero, Quintilian, and Aristotle's Rhetoric, we learn that the Sophist Plato ridicules was actually a notable figure whose works survived in later ages. The play on his name by his contemporary Herodicus (Aris. Rhet.), 'you were always brave in battle,' suggests that the depiction of him has some truth to it.

When Thrasymachus has been silenced, the two principal respondents, Glaucon and Adeimantus, appear on the scene: here, as in Greek tragedy (cp. Introd. to Phaedo), three actors are introduced. At first sight the two sons of Ariston may seem to wear a family likeness, like the two friends Simmias and Cebes in the Phaedo. But on a nearer examination of them the similarity vanishes, and they are seen to be distinct characters. Glaucon is the impetuous youth who can ‘just never have enough of fechting’ (cp. the character of him in Xen. Mem. iii. 6); the man of pleasure who is acquainted with the mysteries of love; the ‘juvenis qui gaudet canibus,’ and who improves the breed of animals; the lover of art and music who has all the experiences of youthful life. He is full of quickness and penetration, piercing easily below the clumsy platitudes of Thrasymachus to the real difficulty; he turns out to the light the seamy side of human life, and yet does not lose faith in the just and true. It is Glaucon who seizes what may be termed the ludicrous relation of the philosopher to the world, to whom a state of simplicity is ‘a city of pigs,’ who is always prepared with a jest when the argument offers him an opportunity, and who is ever ready to second the humour of Socrates and to appreciate the ridiculous, whether in the connoisseurs of music, or in the lovers of theatricals, or in the fantastic behaviour of the citizens of democracy. His weaknesses are several times alluded to by Socrates, who, however, will not allow him to be attacked by his brother Adeimantus. He is a soldier, and, like Adeimantus, has been distinguished at the battle of Megara (anno 456?)...The character of Adeimantus is deeper and graver, and the profounder objections are commonly put into his mouth. Glaucon is more demonstrative, and generally opens the game. Adeimantus pursues the argument further. Glaucon has more of the liveliness and quick sympathy of youth; Adeimantus has the maturer judgment of a grown-up man of the world. In the second book, when Glaucon insists that justice and injustice shall be considered without regard to their consequences, Adeimantus remarks that they are regarded by mankind in general only for the sake of their consequences; and in a similar vein of reflection he urges at the beginning of the fourth book that Socrates fails in making his citizens happy, and is answered that happiness is not the first but the second thing, not the direct aim but the indirect consequence of the good government of a State. In the discussion about religion and mythology, Adeimantus is the respondent, but Glaucon breaks in with a slight jest, and carries on the conversation in a lighter tone about music and gymnastic to the end of the book. It is Adeimantus again who volunteers the criticism of common sense on the Socratic method of argument, and who refuses to let Socrates pass lightly over the question of women and children. It is Adeimantus who is the respondent in the more argumentative, as Glaucon in the lighter and more imaginative portions of the Dialogue. For example, throughout the greater part of the sixth book, the causes of the corruption of philosophy and the conception of the idea of good are discussed with Adeimantus. Glaucon resumes his place of principal respondent; but he has a difficulty in apprehending the higher education of Socrates, and makes some false hits in the course of the discussion. Once more Adeimantus returns with the allusion to his brother Glaucon whom he compares to the contentious State; in the next book he is again superseded, and Glaucon continues to the end.

When Thrasymachus has been quieted, the two main speakers, Glaucon and Adeimantus, step forward: here, like in Greek drama (see Intro to Phaedo), three characters are introduced. At first glance, the two sons of Ariston might look alike, similar to the friends Simmias and Cebes in the Phaedo. But upon closer inspection, their similarities fade, revealing them as distinct characters. Glaucon is the passionate youth who can ‘never get enough of fighting’ (see his character in Xen. Mem. iii. 6); he’s a pleasure-seeker familiar with the secrets of love; the ‘young man who enjoys dogs,’ and who helps improve animal breeds; a lover of art and music with all the experiences of youthful life. He’s sharp and perceptive, easily cutting through Thrasymachus's clumsy clichés to get to the real issues; he shines a light on the darker aspects of human existence, yet he maintains his belief in justice and truth. It’s Glaucon who identifies the comical connection between the philosopher and the world, who views a state of simplicity as ‘a city of pigs,’ always ready with a joke when the argument allows, and who joins in Socrates's humor, appreciating the absurdity in music connoisseurs, theater lovers, or the quirky behavior of democratic citizens. Socrates references his weaknesses several times but doesn’t let Adeimantus attack him. He’s a soldier, and like Adeimantus, has distinguished himself at the battle of Megara (around 456 BC)... Adeimantus’s character is deeper and more serious, often voicing the more profound objections. Glaucon is more expressive and usually starts the conversation. Adeimantus digs deeper into the argument. Glaucon embodies the liveliness and quick understanding of youth; Adeimantus displays the mature judgment of an adult. In the second book, when Glaucon insists that justice and injustice should be examined without considering their outcomes, Adeimantus notes that people generally view them only for their consequences; similarly, at the start of the fourth book, he argues that Socrates fails to make his citizens happy, to which Socrates responds that happiness is not the primary goal but rather a consequence of good governance. In the discussion about religion and mythology, Adeimantus is the respondent, but Glaucon interjects with a lighthearted joke and continues the conversation in a more relaxed tone about music and athletics until the book ends. Adeimantus again offers his criticism of common sense regarding the Socratic method of argument and refuses to let Socrates brush off the topic of women and children. Adeimantus is the main speaker during the more serious arguments, while Glaucon shines in the lighter and more creative sections of the dialogue. For example, much of the sixth book discusses the causes of philosophical corruption and the concept of the idea of good, focusing on Adeimantus. Glaucon takes back the role of primary respondent; however, he struggles to grasp Socrates's higher education and makes some missteps during the discussion. Once more, Adeimantus refers to his brother Glaucon, comparing him to a contentious state; in the next book, he’s again sidelined, and Glaucon takes over until the end.

Thus in a succession of characters Plato represents the successive stages of morality, beginning with the Athenian gentleman of the olden time, who is followed by the practical man of that day regulating his life by proverbs and saws; to him succeeds the wild generalization of the Sophists, and lastly come the young disciples of the great teacher, who know the sophistical arguments but will not be convinced by them, and desire to go deeper into the nature of things. These too, like Cephalus, Polemarchus, Thrasymachus, are clearly distinguished from one another. Neither in the Republic, nor in any other Dialogue of Plato, is a single character repeated.

In this way, Plato illustrates the different stages of morality through a series of characters, starting with the Athenian gentleman of the past. This is followed by the practical man of his time, who guides his life by proverbs and sayings. Next is the bold generalization of the Sophists, and finally, there are the young students of the great teacher who understand the sophistical arguments but won’t be swayed by them, wanting to explore the deeper nature of things. Like Cephalus, Polemarchus, and Thrasymachus, these characters are clearly defined and distinct from one another. In both the Republic and all of Plato's other Dialogues, no character is ever repeated.

The delineation of Socrates in the Republic is not wholly consistent. In the first book we have more of the real Socrates, such as he is depicted in the Memorabilia of Xenophon, in the earliest Dialogues of Plato, and in the Apology. He is ironical, provoking, questioning, the old enemy of the Sophists, ready to put on the mask of Silenus as well as to argue seriously. But in the sixth book his enmity towards the Sophists abates; he acknowledges that they are the representatives rather than the corrupters of the world. He also becomes more dogmatic and constructive, passing beyond the range either of the political or the speculative ideas of the real Socrates. In one passage Plato himself seems to intimate that the time had now come for Socrates, who had passed his whole life in philosophy, to give his own opinion and not to be always repeating the notions of other men. There is no evidence that either the idea of good or the conception of a perfect state were comprehended in the Socratic teaching, though he certainly dwelt on the nature of the universal and of final causes (cp. Xen. Mem.; Phaedo); and a deep thinker like him, in his thirty or forty years of public teaching, could hardly have failed to touch on the nature of family relations, for which there is also some positive evidence in the Memorabilia (Mem.) The Socratic method is nominally retained; and every inference is either put into the mouth of the respondent or represented as the common discovery of him and Socrates. But any one can see that this is a mere form, of which the affectation grows wearisome as the work advances. The method of enquiry has passed into a method of teaching in which by the help of interlocutors the same thesis is looked at from various points of view. The nature of the process is truly characterized by Glaucon, when he describes himself as a companion who is not good for much in an investigation, but can see what he is shown, and may, perhaps, give the answer to a question more fluently than another.

The portrayal of Socrates in the Republic isn't completely consistent. In the first book, he resembles the real Socrates as depicted in Xenophon's Memorabilia, Plato's early Dialogues, and the Apology. He is ironic, provocative, and questioning, the longtime adversary of the Sophists, willing to assume the role of Silenus as well as engage in serious debate. However, in the sixth book, his hostility towards the Sophists softens; he admits that they are representatives of the world rather than its corruptors. He also becomes more dogmatic and constructive, moving beyond the political or speculative ideas of the real Socrates. At one point, Plato seems to suggest that the time has come for Socrates, who has spent his entire life in philosophy, to share his own opinions instead of just echoing others' ideas. There's no evidence that Socratic teachings included the concept of good or the idea of a perfect state, although he definitely explored the nature of universals and final causes (see Xen. Mem.; Phaedo); a deep thinker like him, after thirty or forty years of public teaching, would likely have touched on family relations, which there is some evidence for in the Memorabilia (Mem.). The Socratic method is formally maintained; every conclusion is either voiced by the respondent or posited as a shared discovery between him and Socrates. But it's obvious that this is merely a formality, and it becomes increasingly tedious as the work progresses. The method of inquiry has shifted into a teaching approach where, with the help of interlocutors, the same thesis is examined from different angles. Glaucon accurately describes this process when he characterizes himself as a companion who isn’t very helpful in investigations but can see what he's shown and might, perhaps, provide answers to questions more smoothly than others.

Neither can we be absolutely certain that Socrates himself taught the immortality of the soul, which is unknown to his disciple Glaucon in the Republic (cp. Apol.); nor is there any reason to suppose that he used myths or revelations of another world as a vehicle of instruction, or that he would have banished poetry or have denounced the Greek mythology. His favorite oath is retained, and a slight mention is made of the daemonium, or internal sign, which is alluded to by Socrates as a phenomenon peculiar to himself. A real element of Socratic teaching, which is more prominent in the Republic than in any of the other Dialogues of Plato, is the use of example and illustration τὰ φορτικὰ αὐτῷ προσφέροντες, ‘Let us apply the test of common instances.’ ‘You,’ says Adeimantus, ironically, in the sixth book, ‘are so unaccustomed to speak in images.’ And this use of examples or images, though truly Socratic in origin, is enlarged by the genius of Plato into the form of an allegory or parable, which embodies in the concrete what has been already described, or is about to be described, in the abstract. Thus the figure of the cave in Book VII is a recapitulation of the divisions of knowledge in Book VI. The composite animal in Book IX is an allegory of the parts of the soul. The noble captain and the ship and the true pilot in Book VI are a figure of the relation of the people to the philosophers in the State which has been described. Other figures, such as the dog, or the marriage of the portionless maiden, or the drones and wasps in the eighth and ninth books, also form links of connexion in long passages, or are used to recall previous discussions.

We can't be completely sure that Socrates actually taught the immortality of the soul, since his disciple Glaucon mentions it in the Republic (see Apol.); nor is there any reason to think he used myths or messages from another world for teaching. There's also no indication that he would have banned poetry or criticized Greek mythology. His preferred oath remains, and there’s a brief reference to the daemonium, or internal sign, which Socrates refers to as something unique to himself. A key aspect of Socratic teaching, which is more evident in the Republic than in any other dialogues by Plato, is the use of examples and illustrations τὰ φορτικὰ αὐτῷ προσφέροντες, ‘Let us apply the test of common instances.’ “You,” Adeimantus ironically says in the sixth book, “are so unaccustomed to speak in images.” This use of examples or images, though genuinely Socratic, is developed by Plato’s genius into forms of allegory or parable. These embody what has already been described or will be described in an abstract way. For instance, the image of the cave in Book VII summarizes the divisions of knowledge discussed in Book VI. The composite animal in Book IX symbolizes the different parts of the soul. The noble captain, the ship, and the true pilot in Book VI represent the relationship between the people and the philosophers in the State that has been described. Other images, like the dog, the marriage of the portionless maiden, or the drones and wasps in the eighth and ninth books, also serve as connections in longer passages or are used to remind readers of earlier discussions.

Plato is most true to the character of his master when he describes him as ‘not of this world.’ And with this representation of him the ideal state and the other paradoxes of the Republic are quite in accordance, though they cannot be shown to have been speculations of Socrates. To him, as to other great teachers both philosophical and religious, when they looked upward, the world seemed to be the embodiment of error and evil. The common sense of mankind has revolted against this view, or has only partially admitted it. And even in Socrates himself the sterner judgement of the multitude at times passes into a sort of ironical pity or love. Men in general are incapable of philosophy, and are therefore at enmity with the philosopher; but their misunderstanding of him is unavoidable: for they have never seen him as he truly is in his own image; they are only acquainted with artificial systems possessing no native force of truth—words which admit of many applications. Their leaders have nothing to measure with, and are therefore ignorant of their own stature. But they are to be pitied or laughed at, not to be quarrelled with; they mean well with their nostrums, if they could only learn that they are cutting off a Hydra’s head. This moderation towards those who are in error is one of the most characteristic features of Socrates in the Republic. In all the different representations of Socrates, whether of Xenophon or Plato, and amid the differences of the earlier or later Dialogues, he always retains the character of the unwearied and disinterested seeker after truth, without which he would have ceased to be Socrates.

Plato truly captures the essence of his teacher when he describes him as ‘not of this world.’ This portrayal aligns perfectly with the ideal state and other paradoxes of the Republic, even if they can't be definitively linked to Socratic thought. Like other great philosophical and religious leaders, when Socrates looked upward, he saw the world as a mix of error and evil. However, the common sense of people has pushed back against this viewpoint or only accepted it partially. Even Socrates faced the harsher judgment of the masses, which sometimes turned into a kind of ironic pity or love. In general, most people can't grasp philosophy, which puts them at odds with philosophers. Their misunderstanding of philosophers is unavoidable, as they've never seen them for who they truly are; they're only familiar with artificial systems that lack genuine truth—words that can mean many things. Their leaders don't have anything solid to measure against, leaving them unaware of their own limitations. But they should be felt sorry for or laughed at, not argued with; they genuinely mean well with their solutions, if only they'd realize they're attacking a Hydra. This calmness towards those who err is one of the most defining traits of Socrates in the Republic. Across all the different portrayals of Socrates, whether by Xenophon or Plato, and despite the variations in the earlier or later Dialogues, he consistently embodies the relentless and selfless quest for truth, which is essential to his identity.

Leaving the characters we may now analyse the contents of the Republic, and then proceed to consider (1) The general aspects of this Hellenic ideal of the State, (2) The modern lights in which the thoughts of Plato may be read.

Leaving the characters, we can now analyze the contents of the Republic, and then proceed to consider (1) The general aspects of this Hellenic ideal of the State, (2) The modern perspectives from which we can interpret Plato's thoughts.

BOOK I. The Republic opens with a truly Greek scene—a festival in honour of the goddess Bendis which is held in the Piraeus; to this is added the promise of an equestrian torch-race in the evening. The whole work is supposed to be recited by Socrates on the day after the festival to a small party, consisting of Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates, and another; this we learn from the first words of the Timaeus.

BOOK I. The Republic begins with a classic Greek scene—a festival in honor of the goddess Bendis taking place in the Piraeus; there's also the exciting promise of a horse-mounted torch race in the evening. The entire work is said to be recounted by Socrates the day after the festival to a small group that includes Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates, and another person; we learn this from the opening lines of the Timaeus.

When the rhetorical advantage of reciting the Dialogue has been gained, the attention is not distracted by any reference to the audience; nor is the reader further reminded of the extraordinary length of the narrative. Of the numerous company, three only take any serious part in the discussion; nor are we informed whether in the evening they went to the torch-race, or talked, as in the Symposium, through the night. The manner in which the conversation has arisen is described as follows:—Socrates and his companion Glaucon are about to leave the festival when they are detained by a message from Polemarchus, who speedily appears accompanied by Adeimantus, the brother of Glaucon, and with playful violence compels them to remain, promising them not only the torch-race, but the pleasure of conversation with the young, which to Socrates is a far greater attraction. They return to the house of Cephalus, Polemarchus’ father, now in extreme old age, who is found sitting upon a cushioned seat crowned for a sacrifice. ‘You should come to me oftener, Socrates, for I am too old to go to you; and at my time of life, having lost other pleasures, I care the more for conversation.’ Socrates asks him what he thinks of age, to which the old man replies, that the sorrows and discontents of age are to be attributed to the tempers of men, and that age is a time of peace in which the tyranny of the passions is no longer felt. Yes, replies Socrates, but the world will say, Cephalus, that you are happy in old age because you are rich. ‘And there is something in what they say, Socrates, but not so much as they imagine—as Themistocles replied to the Seriphian, “Neither you, if you had been an Athenian, nor I, if I had been a Seriphian, would ever have been famous,” I might in like manner reply to you, Neither a good poor man can be happy in age, nor yet a bad rich man.’ Socrates remarks that Cephalus appears not to care about riches, a quality which he ascribes to his having inherited, not acquired them, and would like to know what he considers to be the chief advantage of them. Cephalus answers that when you are old the belief in the world below grows upon you, and then to have done justice and never to have been compelled to do injustice through poverty, and never to have deceived anyone, are felt to be unspeakable blessings. Socrates, who is evidently preparing for an argument, next asks, What is the meaning of the word justice? To tell the truth and pay your debts? No more than this? Or must we admit exceptions? Ought I, for example, to put back into the hands of my friend, who has gone mad, the sword which I borrowed of him when he was in his right mind? ‘There must be exceptions.’ ‘And yet,’ says Polemarchus, ‘the definition which has been given has the authority of Simonides.’ Here Cephalus retires to look after the sacrifices, and bequeaths, as Socrates facetiously remarks, the possession of the argument to his heir, Polemarchus...

Once the advantage of discussing the Dialogue has been established, there's no distraction from the audience; the reader isn't constantly reminded of how long the story is. Out of the crowd present, only three people actively participate in the discussion, and we don't find out if they later attended the torch-race or talked through the night like in the Symposium. The way the conversation starts is explained like this: Socrates and his friend Glaucon are about to leave the festival when they are stopped by a message from Polemarchus, who soon appears with Adeimantus, Glaucon's brother, and playfully insists they stay, promising them not just the torch-race but also the joy of chatting with the youth, which is an even bigger draw for Socrates. They head back to Cephalus’ house, Polemarchus’ aging father, who they find sitting on a cushioned seat, ready for a sacrifice. "You should visit me more often, Socrates, since I'm too old to come see you; at my age, having lost other pleasures, I cherish conversation even more." Socrates asks him what he thinks about aging, and the old man responds that the sadness and discontent of old age are due to people's temperaments, and that it can actually be a peaceful time when one's passions no longer reign. "True," Socrates replies, "but people might say, Cephalus, that you're happy in your old age because you're wealthy." "There's some truth to that, Socrates, but not as much as they think. Like Themistocles told the Seriphian, 'Neither you, if you had been an Athenian, nor I, if I had been a Seriphian, would have ever become famous.' I could similarly say, neither can a good poor man be happy in old age, nor a bad rich man." Socrates observes that Cephalus seems indifferent to wealth, a trait he attributes to having inherited it rather than earned it. He then asks what he considers the main benefit of being wealthy. Cephalus replies that as you grow old, your belief in the afterlife strengthens, and having lived justly—never forced to do wrong due to poverty or deceive anyone—becomes an indescribable blessing. Socrates, clearly gearing up for an argument, then asks, "What does justice mean? Is it simply telling the truth and paying your debts? Or is there more to it? Should I return the sword I borrowed from my friend when he was sane, even though he’s now lost his mind?" "There must be exceptions," responds Polemarchus. "But," he continues, "the definition we have was given authority by Simonides." At this point, Cephalus steps away to tend to the sacrifices, humorously leaving the argument for his "heir," Polemarchus...

The description of old age is finished, and Plato, as his manner is, has touched the key-note of the whole work in asking for the definition of justice, first suggesting the question which Glaucon afterwards pursues respecting external goods, and preparing for the concluding mythus of the world below in the slight allusion of Cephalus. The portrait of the just man is a natural frontispiece or introduction to the long discourse which follows, and may perhaps imply that in all our perplexity about the nature of justice, there is no difficulty in discerning ‘who is a just man.’ The first explanation has been supported by a saying of Simonides; and now Socrates has a mind to show that the resolution of justice into two unconnected precepts, which have no common principle, fails to satisfy the demands of dialectic.

The discussion on old age is over, and Plato, as usual, has highlighted the main theme of the entire work by asking for a definition of justice. He first raises the question that Glaucon later explores about external goods and sets the stage for the final myth about the afterlife with a brief mention of Cephalus. The portrayal of the just man serves as a natural introduction to the lengthy discussion that follows and might suggest that even with all our confusion about the nature of justice, it’s easy to recognize ‘who is a just man.’ The initial explanation has been backed up by a saying from Simonides; now, Socrates intends to demonstrate that breaking down justice into two unrelated rules, which don’t have a shared principle, does not meet the standards of logical debate.

...He proceeds: What did Simonides mean by this saying of his? Did he mean that I was to give back arms to a madman? ‘No, not in that case, not if the parties are friends, and evil would result. He meant that you were to do what was proper, good to friends and harm to enemies.’ Every act does something to somebody; and following this analogy, Socrates asks, What is this due and proper thing which justice does, and to whom? He is answered that justice does good to friends and harm to enemies. But in what way good or harm? ‘In making alliances with the one, and going to war with the other.’ Then in time of peace what is the good of justice? The answer is that justice is of use in contracts, and contracts are money partnerships. Yes; but how in such partnerships is the just man of more use than any other man? ‘When you want to have money safely kept and not used.’ Then justice will be useful when money is useless. And there is another difficulty: justice, like the art of war or any other art, must be of opposites, good at attack as well as at defence, at stealing as well as at guarding. But then justice is a thief, though a hero notwithstanding, like Autolycus, the Homeric hero, who was ‘excellent above all men in theft and perjury’—to such a pass have you and Homer and Simonides brought us; though I do not forget that the thieving must be for the good of friends and the harm of enemies. And still there arises another question: Are friends to be interpreted as real or seeming; enemies as real or seeming? And are our friends to be only the good, and our enemies to be the evil? The answer is, that we must do good to our seeming and real good friends, and evil to our seeming and real evil enemies—good to the good, evil to the evil. But ought we to render evil for evil at all, when to do so will only make men more evil? Can justice produce injustice any more than the art of horsemanship can make bad horsemen, or heat produce cold? The final conclusion is, that no sage or poet ever said that the just return evil for evil; this was a maxim of some rich and mighty man, Periander, Perdiccas, or Ismenias the Theban (about B.C. 398-381)...

...He continues: What did Simonides mean by this saying of his? Did he mean that I should give arms back to a madman? ‘No, not in that case, not if the parties are friends, and it would lead to harm. He meant that you're supposed to do what is right, which is good for friends and bad for enemies.’ Every action impacts someone; following this idea, Socrates asks, What is this proper and right thing that justice does, and to whom? The response is that justice does good to friends and harm to enemies. But how does it do good or harm? ‘By forming alliances with one and waging war against the other.’ Then, in times of peace, what's the benefit of justice? The answer is that justice is useful in contracts, and contracts are financial partnerships. Yes; but how is the just person more useful in these partnerships than anyone else? ‘When you want to keep money safe and not used.’ So, justice will be useful when money isn’t needed. And there's another challenge: justice, like the art of warfare or any other skill, must deal with opposites, being effective at both attacking and defending, at stealing as well as guarding. But then justice is seen as a thief too, albeit a noble one, like Autolycus, the Homeric figure who was ‘unmatched above all in theft and deceit’—to such a point have you, Homer, and Simonides led us; though I don't forget that the thievery must benefit friends and harm enemies. Yet, another question arises: Are friends to be seen as genuine or apparent; enemies as genuine or apparent? And should our friends be only the good, and our enemies the evil? The answer is that we should do good to our genuine and apparent friends, and harm to our genuine and apparent enemies—good to the good, harm to the evil. But should we respond with evil for evil at all, when doing so will only make people worse? Can justice lead to injustice any more than the skill of horsemanship can create poor horsemen, or heat can produce cold? The final conclusion is that no wise person or poet ever claimed that the just return harm for harm; this was a principle of some wealthy and powerful individuals like Periander, Perdiccas, or Ismenias the Theban (around B.C. 398-381)...

Thus the first stage of aphoristic or unconscious morality is shown to be inadequate to the wants of the age; the authority of the poets is set aside, and through the winding mazes of dialectic we make an approach to the Christian precept of forgiveness of injuries. Similar words are applied by the Persian mystic poet to the Divine being when the questioning spirit is stirred within him:—‘If because I do evil, Thou punishest me by evil, what is the difference between Thee and me?’ In this both Plato and Kheyam rise above the level of many Christian (?) theologians. The first definition of justice easily passes into the second; for the simple words ‘to speak the truth and pay your debts’ is substituted the more abstract ‘to do good to your friends and harm to your enemies.’ Either of these explanations gives a sufficient rule of life for plain men, but they both fall short of the precision of philosophy. We may note in passing the antiquity of casuistry, which not only arises out of the conflict of established principles in particular cases, but also out of the effort to attain them, and is prior as well as posterior to our fundamental notions of morality. The ‘interrogation’ of moral ideas; the appeal to the authority of Homer; the conclusion that the maxim, ‘Do good to your friends and harm to your enemies,’ being erroneous, could not have been the word of any great man, are all of them very characteristic of the Platonic Socrates.

The initial stage of instinctive or aphoristic morality proves inadequate for the needs of the times; the influence of poets is dismissed, and through complex discussions, we move closer to the Christian idea of forgiving those who wrong us. Similar sentiments are expressed by the Persian mystic poet regarding the Divine when his questioning nature is awakened: "If you punish me with evil for my wrongdoing, what's the difference between us?" In this respect, both Plato and Kheyam exceed the understanding of many Christian theologians. The first definition of justice easily transitions into the second; the straightforward "speak the truth and pay your debts" is replaced by the more abstract "do good to your friends and harm to your enemies." Each of these provides a practical guideline for everyday people, but they both lack the exactness of philosophical thought. It's worth noting the long history of casuistry, which arises not only from conflicts between established principles in specific situations but also from the attempt to understand them, occurring both before and after our basic moral concepts. The questioning of moral ideas, the reference to the authority of Homer, and the conclusion that the saying "do good to your friends and harm to your enemies," being flawed, could not have come from any great thinker, all reflect the distinctive nature of the Platonic Socrates.

...Here Thrasymachus, who has made several attempts to interrupt, but has hitherto been kept in order by the company, takes advantage of a pause and rushes into the arena, beginning, like a savage animal, with a roar. ‘Socrates,’ he says, ‘what folly is this?—Why do you agree to be vanquished by one another in a pretended argument?’ He then prohibits all the ordinary definitions of justice; to which Socrates replies that he cannot tell how many twelve is, if he is forbidden to say 2 x 6, or 3 x 4, or 6 x 2, or 4 x 3. At first Thrasymachus is reluctant to argue; but at length, with a promise of payment on the part of the company and of praise from Socrates, he is induced to open the game. ‘Listen,’ he says, ‘my answer is that might is right, justice the interest of the stronger: now praise me.’ Let me understand you first. Do you mean that because Polydamas the wrestler, who is stronger than we are, finds the eating of beef for his interest, the eating of beef is also for our interest, who are not so strong? Thrasymachus is indignant at the illustration, and in pompous words, apparently intended to restore dignity to the argument, he explains his meaning to be that the rulers make laws for their own interests. But suppose, says Socrates, that the ruler or stronger makes a mistake—then the interest of the stronger is not his interest. Thrasymachus is saved from this speedy downfall by his disciple Cleitophon, who introduces the word ‘thinks;’—not the actual interest of the ruler, but what he thinks or what seems to be his interest, is justice. The contradiction is escaped by the unmeaning evasion: for though his real and apparent interests may differ, what the ruler thinks to be his interest will always remain what he thinks to be his interest.

...Here Thrasymachus, who has tried several times to interrupt but has been kept in check by the group, finally seizes a moment of silence and jumps in, starting off like a wild animal with a roar. ‘Socrates,’ he says, ‘what madness is this? Why do you allow yourselves to be defeated by each other in a fake argument?’ He then dismisses all the usual definitions of justice. Socrates replies that he can't say how much twelve is if he's not allowed to express it as 2 x 6, or 3 x 4, or 6 x 2, or 4 x 3. Initially, Thrasymachus is hesitant to debate; but eventually, with a promise of payment from the group and praise from Socrates, he is persuaded to join in. ‘Listen,’ he declares, ‘my answer is that might makes right, and justice is simply the interest of the stronger: now give me praise.’ Let me understand you better. Are you saying that because Polydamas the wrestler, who is stronger than we are, finds it in his interest to eat beef, that means eating beef is also in our interest, even though we are not as strong? Thrasymachus is offended by this example, and in grandiose language, seemingly aimed at restoring respect to the argument, he clarifies that the rulers make laws that benefit themselves. But what if, Socrates asks, the ruler or stronger person makes a mistake—then the interest of the stronger isn’t really his interest. Thrasymachus is spared from this quick downfall by his follower Cleitophon, who introduces the term ‘thinks;’—it's not the actual interest of the ruler, but what he thinks or what appears to be his interest, that is justice. This contradiction is avoided through a meaningless evasion: even if his real and supposed interests are different, what the ruler believes to be his interest will always stay as what he thinks it is.

Of course this was not the original assertion, nor is the new interpretation accepted by Thrasymachus himself. But Socrates is not disposed to quarrel about words, if, as he significantly insinuates, his adversary has changed his mind. In what follows Thrasymachus does in fact withdraw his admission that the ruler may make a mistake, for he affirms that the ruler as a ruler is infallible. Socrates is quite ready to accept the new position, which he equally turns against Thrasymachus by the help of the analogy of the arts. Every art or science has an interest, but this interest is to be distinguished from the accidental interest of the artist, and is only concerned with the good of the things or persons which come under the art. And justice has an interest which is the interest not of the ruler or judge, but of those who come under his sway.

Of course, this wasn’t the original claim, nor does Thrasymachus himself accept the new interpretation. But Socrates isn’t interested in fighting over words, especially if he’s hinting that his opponent has changed his mind. In what follows, Thrasymachus actually takes back his earlier admission that a ruler can make a mistake, insisting that the ruler, in their role as a ruler, is infallible. Socrates is more than willing to accept this new stance and uses it against Thrasymachus with an analogy about different fields of expertise. Every field or science has its own interest, but this interest is separate from the personal interests of the practitioner; it only focuses on the welfare of the things or people affected by that field. Justice has an interest that belongs not to the ruler or judge, but to those who are under their authority.

Thrasymachus is on the brink of the inevitable conclusion, when he makes a bold diversion. ‘Tell me, Socrates,’ he says, ‘have you a nurse?’ What a question! Why do you ask? ‘Because, if you have, she neglects you and lets you go about drivelling, and has not even taught you to know the shepherd from the sheep. For you fancy that shepherds and rulers never think of their own interest, but only of their sheep or subjects, whereas the truth is that they fatten them for their use, sheep and subjects alike. And experience proves that in every relation of life the just man is the loser and the unjust the gainer, especially where injustice is on the grand scale, which is quite another thing from the petty rogueries of swindlers and burglars and robbers of temples. The language of men proves this—our ‘gracious’ and ‘blessed’ tyrant and the like—all which tends to show (1) that justice is the interest of the stronger; and (2) that injustice is more profitable and also stronger than justice.’

Thrasymachus is about to reach his inevitable conclusion when he suddenly changes direction. “Tell me, Socrates,” he asks, “do you have a nurse?” What a question! Why do you want to know? “Because if you do have one, she’s neglecting you and letting you wander around confused, and hasn’t even taught you to tell the shepherd from the sheep. You seem to think that shepherds and rulers never consider their own interests, only those of their sheep or subjects, when the reality is that they take care of them for their own benefit, sheep and subjects alike. And life shows us that in every situation, the just person ends up losing while the unjust one benefits, especially when it comes to large-scale injustices, which are completely different from the petty scams of thieves, burglars, and temple robbers. The way people speak supports this—our ‘gracious’ and ‘blessed’ tyrant and so on—all of which suggests (1) that justice serves the interests of the stronger; and (2) that injustice is not only more beneficial but also more powerful than justice.”

Thrasymachus, who is better at a speech than at a close argument, having deluged the company with words, has a mind to escape. But the others will not let him go, and Socrates adds a humble but earnest request that he will not desert them at such a crisis of their fate. ‘And what can I do more for you?’ he says; ‘would you have me put the words bodily into your souls?’ God forbid! replies Socrates; but we want you to be consistent in the use of terms, and not to employ ‘physician’ in an exact sense, and then again ‘shepherd’ or ‘ruler’ in an inexact,—if the words are strictly taken, the ruler and the shepherd look only to the good of their people or flocks and not to their own: whereas you insist that rulers are solely actuated by love of office. ‘No doubt about it,’ replies Thrasymachus. Then why are they paid? Is not the reason, that their interest is not comprehended in their art, and is therefore the concern of another art, the art of pay, which is common to the arts in general, and therefore not identical with any one of them? Nor would any man be a ruler unless he were induced by the hope of reward or the fear of punishment;—the reward is money or honour, the punishment is the necessity of being ruled by a man worse than himself. And if a State (or Church) were composed entirely of good men, they would be affected by the last motive only; and there would be as much ‘nolo episcopari’ as there is at present of the opposite...

Thrasymachus, who’s better at speaking than at making a solid argument, has overwhelmed the group with his words and wants to leave. But the others won’t let him go, and Socrates makes a sincere but humble plea for him not to abandon them at such a crucial moment. “What more can I do for you?” he asks. “Do you want me to put the words directly into your minds?” “Heavens no!” Socrates replies; “we just want you to be consistent in your terminology. Don’t use ‘physician’ in a precise way and then ‘shepherd’ or ‘ruler’ loosely. If you take the words literally, the ruler and the shepherd are only concerned with the welfare of their people or flocks, not their own interests. Yet you claim that rulers are only motivated by their love of the job.” “Absolutely,” Thrasymachus replies. “Then why do they get paid? Isn’t it because their self-interest doesn’t fall within their expertise, and thus it’s the concern of another skill— the skill of payment—which is shared across various fields and isn’t specific to any one of them? No one would want to be a ruler unless motivated by the hope of reward or fear of punishment; the reward being money or recognition, and the punishment being the risk of being governed by someone worse than themselves. If a State (or Church) were made up entirely of good people, they would only be influenced by the latter motive; and there would be just as much ‘nolo episcopari’ now as there is of the opposite...”

The satire on existing governments is heightened by the simple and apparently incidental manner in which the last remark is introduced. There is a similar irony in the argument that the governors of mankind do not like being in office, and that therefore they demand pay.

The satire on current governments is intensified by the straightforward and seemingly casual way the last comment is brought up. There's a similar irony in the idea that the leaders of humanity don't actually enjoy being in power, and that's why they insist on getting paid.

...Enough of this: the other assertion of Thrasymachus is far more important—that the unjust life is more gainful than the just. Now, as you and I, Glaucon, are not convinced by him, we must reply to him; but if we try to compare their respective gains we shall want a judge to decide for us; we had better therefore proceed by making mutual admissions of the truth to one another.

...Enough of this: Thrasymachus’s other claim is much more significant—that living unjustly is more profitable than living justly. Since you and I, Glaucon, are not persuaded by him, we need to respond; but if we attempt to weigh their gains against each other, we will need a judge to settle it for us. It’s better if we start by acknowledging the truth between ourselves.

Thrasymachus had asserted that perfect injustice was more gainful than perfect justice, and after a little hesitation he is induced by Socrates to admit the still greater paradox that injustice is virtue and justice vice. Socrates praises his frankness, and assumes the attitude of one whose only wish is to understand the meaning of his opponents. At the same time he is weaving a net in which Thrasymachus is finally enclosed. The admission is elicited from him that the just man seeks to gain an advantage over the unjust only, but not over the just, while the unjust would gain an advantage over either. Socrates, in order to test this statement, employs once more the favourite analogy of the arts. The musician, doctor, skilled artist of any sort, does not seek to gain more than the skilled, but only more than the unskilled (that is to say, he works up to a rule, standard, law, and does not exceed it), whereas the unskilled makes random efforts at excess. Thus the skilled falls on the side of the good, and the unskilled on the side of the evil, and the just is the skilled, and the unjust is the unskilled.

Thrasymachus claimed that perfect injustice was more profitable than perfect justice, and after a bit of hesitation, he is persuaded by Socrates to accept the even more shocking idea that injustice is a form of virtue and justice is a form of vice. Socrates compliments him for his honesty and takes on the role of someone who just wants to understand his opponent's views. At the same time, he is creating a trap to ensnare Thrasymachus. The admission comes from Thrasymachus that a just person aims to gain an advantage only over the unjust, not over other just individuals, while the unjust person seeks to gain an advantage over both. To test this claim, Socrates again uses his favorite analogy of the arts. The musician, doctor, or any skilled artist doesn’t aim to gain more than another skilled person, but only more than the unskilled (meaning they adhere to a rule, standard, or law, and do not go beyond it), while the unskilled person tries randomly to achieve excess. Therefore, the skilled aligns with what is good, and the unskilled aligns with what is evil, meaning the just are the skilled and the unjust are the unskilled.

There was great difficulty in bringing Thrasymachus to the point; the day was hot and he was streaming with perspiration, and for the first time in his life he was seen to blush. But his other thesis that injustice was stronger than justice has not yet been refuted, and Socrates now proceeds to the consideration of this, which, with the assistance of Thrasymachus, he hopes to clear up; the latter is at first churlish, but in the judicious hands of Socrates is soon restored to good-humour: Is there not honour among thieves? Is not the strength of injustice only a remnant of justice? Is not absolute injustice absolute weakness also? A house that is divided against itself cannot stand; two men who quarrel detract from one another’s strength, and he who is at war with himself is the enemy of himself and the gods. Not wickedness therefore, but semi-wickedness flourishes in states,—a remnant of good is needed in order to make union in action possible,—there is no kingdom of evil in this world.

Thrasymachus was hard to get through to; it was a hot day, he was sweating, and for the first time ever, he blushed. However, his claim that injustice is stronger than justice hasn't been disproven yet. Socrates now moves on to address this point, hoping to clarify it with Thrasymachus’s help. At first, Thrasymachus is grumpy, but with Socrates' skilled approach, he quickly lightens up. Isn't there some code of honor among thieves? Isn't the power of injustice just a leftover from justice? Isn't total injustice also a kind of total weakness? A house divided against itself can’t stand; when two people fight, they weaken each other, and someone at war with themselves is at odds with both themselves and the gods. So it's not outright wickedness that thrives in societies—there’s a bit of good needed to make cooperation possible—there's no pure evil kingdom in this world.

Another question has not been answered: Is the just or the unjust the happier? To this we reply, that every art has an end and an excellence or virtue by which the end is accomplished. And is not the end of the soul happiness, and justice the excellence of the soul by which happiness is attained? Justice and happiness being thus shown to be inseparable, the question whether the just or the unjust is the happier has disappeared.

Another question remains unanswered: Who is happier, the just or the unjust? In response, we say that every skill has a goal and a virtue through which that goal is achieved. Isn’t the goal of the soul happiness, and is justice not the virtue of the soul that leads to happiness? Since justice and happiness are linked, the question of whether the just or the unjust is happier has vanished.

Thrasymachus replies: ‘Let this be your entertainment, Socrates, at the festival of Bendis.’ Yes; and a very good entertainment with which your kindness has supplied me, now that you have left off scolding. And yet not a good entertainment—but that was my own fault, for I tasted of too many things. First of all the nature of justice was the subject of our enquiry, and then whether justice is virtue and wisdom, or evil and folly; and then the comparative advantages of just and unjust: and the sum of all is that I know not what justice is; how then shall I know whether the just is happy or not?...

Thrasymachus responds, “Let this be your entertainment, Socrates, at the festival of Bendis.” Yes, and it's a great entertainment you've provided me, now that you've stopped criticizing. Yet, it's not really a good entertainment—though that’s my own fault for trying to cover too many topics. First, we explored the nature of justice, then we questioned whether justice is virtue and wisdom, or evil and folly; we also considered the relative benefits of being just versus unjust. In the end, I realize I don’t know what justice truly is; so how can I determine whether the just person is happy or not?

Thus the sophistical fabric has been demolished, chiefly by appealing to the analogy of the arts. ‘Justice is like the arts (1) in having no external interest, and (2) in not aiming at excess, and (3) justice is to happiness what the implement of the workman is to his work.’ At this the modern reader is apt to stumble, because he forgets that Plato is writing in an age when the arts and the virtues, like the moral and intellectual faculties, were still undistinguished. Among early enquirers into the nature of human action the arts helped to fill up the void of speculation; and at first the comparison of the arts and the virtues was not perceived by them to be fallacious. They only saw the points of agreement in them and not the points of difference. Virtue, like art, must take means to an end; good manners are both an art and a virtue; character is naturally described under the image of a statue; and there are many other figures of speech which are readily transferred from art to morals. The next generation cleared up these perplexities; or at least supplied after ages with a further analysis of them. The contemporaries of Plato were in a state of transition, and had not yet fully realized the common-sense distinction of Aristotle, that ‘virtue is concerned with action, art with production’ (Nic. Eth.), or that ‘virtue implies intention and constancy of purpose,’ whereas ‘art requires knowledge only’. And yet in the absurdities which follow from some uses of the analogy, there seems to be an intimation conveyed that virtue is more than art. This is implied in the reductio ad absurdum that ‘justice is a thief,’ and in the dissatisfaction which Socrates expresses at the final result.

Thus the misleading argument has been dismantled, mainly by referencing the analogy of the arts. ‘Justice is similar to the arts (1) in having no outside interest, and (2) in not trying for excess, and (3) justice is to happiness what a worker’s tool is to his job.’ At this, the modern reader often stumbles, because they forget that Plato is writing in an era when the arts and virtues, like moral and intellectual faculties, were not yet differentiated. Among early explorers of human behavior, the arts helped fill the gaps in speculation; initially, they did not see the comparison between the arts and virtues as misleading. They noted the similarities between them without recognizing the differences. Virtue, like art, requires means to achieve an end; good manners are both an art and a virtue; character is often described using the metaphor of a statue; and there are many other expressions easily transferred from art to ethics. The following generation clarified these confusions, or at least provided future ages with more analysis of them. Plato's contemporaries were in a state of change and had not yet fully grasped Aristotle's common-sense distinction that ‘virtue relates to action, art to production’ (Nic. Eth.), or that ‘virtue involves intention and consistency of purpose,’ while ‘art requires only knowledge.’ Yet, in the absurdities that arise from certain uses of the analogy, there seems to be a suggestion that virtue is more than art. This is hinted at in the reductio ad absurdum that ‘justice is a thief,’ and in the dissatisfaction Socrates shows with the final outcome.

The expression ‘an art of pay’ which is described as ‘common to all the arts’ is not in accordance with the ordinary use of language. Nor is it employed elsewhere either by Plato or by any other Greek writer. It is suggested by the argument, and seems to extend the conception of art to doing as well as making. Another flaw or inaccuracy of language may be noted in the words ‘men who are injured are made more unjust.’ For those who are injured are not necessarily made worse, but only harmed or ill-treated.

The phrase "an art of pay," which is said to be "common to all the arts," doesn't align with how we typically use language. It also doesn't appear anywhere else in the works of Plato or any other Greek writer. The argument seems to imply that the definition of art includes both doing and making. Additionally, another flaw in language can be found in the phrase "men who are injured are made more unjust." Those who are injured aren't necessarily made worse; they are simply harmed or mistreated.

The second of the three arguments, ‘that the just does not aim at excess,’ has a real meaning, though wrapped up in an enigmatical form. That the good is of the nature of the finite is a peculiarly Hellenic sentiment, which may be compared with the language of those modern writers who speak of virtue as fitness, and of freedom as obedience to law. The mathematical or logical notion of limit easily passes into an ethical one, and even finds a mythological expression in the conception of envy (Greek). Ideas of measure, equality, order, unity, proportion, still linger in the writings of moralists; and the true spirit of the fine arts is better conveyed by such terms than by superlatives.

The second of the three arguments, "that justice doesn't strive for excess," carries significant meaning, even though it's phrased in a puzzling way. The idea that the good is inherently finite is a uniquely Greek sentiment, similar to how some modern writers describe virtue as suitability and freedom as adherence to the law. The mathematical or logical idea of a limit easily translates into an ethical one, and even finds a mythical representation in the concept of envy (Greek). Ideas of measure, equality, order, unity, and proportion still appear in moralists' writings; the true essence of the fine arts is better expressed through these terms than through superlatives.

‘When workmen strive to do better than well,
They do confound their skill in covetousness.’ (King John. Act. iv. Sc. 2.)

‘When workers try to excel beyond just being good,
They confuse their abilities with greed.’ (King John. Act. iv. Sc. 2.)

The harmony of the soul and body, and of the parts of the soul with one another, a harmony ‘fairer than that of musical notes,’ is the true Hellenic mode of conceiving the perfection of human nature.

The balance between the soul and body, as well as between the different aspects of the soul, a balance “more beautiful than musical notes,” is the genuine Greek way of understanding the perfection of human nature.

In what may be called the epilogue of the discussion with Thrasymachus, Plato argues that evil is not a principle of strength, but of discord and dissolution, just touching the question which has been often treated in modern times by theologians and philosophers, of the negative nature of evil. In the last argument we trace the germ of the Aristotelian doctrine of an end and a virtue directed towards the end, which again is suggested by the arts. The final reconcilement of justice and happiness and the identity of the individual and the State are also intimated. Socrates reassumes the character of a ‘know-nothing;’ at the same time he appears to be not wholly satisfied with the manner in which the argument has been conducted. Nothing is concluded; but the tendency of the dialectical process, here as always, is to enlarge our conception of ideas, and to widen their application to human life.

In what might be seen as the closing thoughts on the discussion with Thrasymachus, Plato argues that evil is not a source of strength, but rather a cause of conflict and breakdown. This just touches on the modern debates among theologians and philosophers regarding the negative nature of evil. In this final argument, we can see the beginnings of Aristotle's idea of a purpose and a virtue aimed at that purpose, which is also inspired by the arts. There are hints at the eventual reconciliation of justice and happiness, as well as the connection between the individual and the State. Socrates returns to his role as a ‘know-nothing,’ while also seeming somewhat dissatisfied with how the argument has unfolded. No definitive conclusions are reached; however, the nature of the dialectical process, as always, is to broaden our understanding of concepts and their relevance to human life.

BOOK II. Thrasymachus is pacified, but the intrepid Glaucon insists on continuing the argument. He is not satisfied with the indirect manner in which, at the end of the last book, Socrates had disposed of the question ‘Whether the just or the unjust is the happier.’ He begins by dividing goods into three classes:—first, goods desirable in themselves; secondly, goods desirable in themselves and for their results; thirdly, goods desirable for their results only. He then asks Socrates in which of the three classes he would place justice. In the second class, replies Socrates, among goods desirable for themselves and also for their results. ‘Then the world in general are of another mind, for they say that justice belongs to the troublesome class of goods which are desirable for their results only. Socrates answers that this is the doctrine of Thrasymachus which he rejects. Glaucon thinks that Thrasymachus was too ready to listen to the voice of the charmer, and proposes to consider the nature of justice and injustice in themselves and apart from the results and rewards of them which the world is always dinning in his ears. He will first of all speak of the nature and origin of justice; secondly, of the manner in which men view justice as a necessity and not a good; and thirdly, he will prove the reasonableness of this view.

BOOK II. Thrasymachus is calmed, but the fearless Glaucon insists on continuing the discussion. He isn't satisfied with the indirect way Socrates addressed the question of whether the just or the unjust is happier at the end of the last book. He starts by categorizing goods into three types: first, goods that are desirable in themselves; second, goods that are desirable in themselves and for their outcomes; and third, goods that are desirable only for their outcomes. He then asks Socrates which category justice fits into. Socrates replies that justice falls into the second category, among goods that are desirable for themselves and also for their outcomes. "Then it seems the general public has a different opinion, claiming that justice belongs to the troublesome category of goods that are desirable only for their outcomes." Socrates counters that this is Thrasymachus's view, which he rejects. Glaucon believes Thrasymachus was too quick to be swayed by the charm of popular opinion, and suggests examining the nature of justice and injustice by themselves, apart from the results and rewards that everyone else is always shouting about. He will first discuss the essence and origin of justice; second, how people perceive justice as a necessity rather than a good; and third, he will provide reasons to support this perspective.

‘To do injustice is said to be a good; to suffer injustice an evil. As the evil is discovered by experience to be greater than the good, the sufferers, who cannot also be doers, make a compact that they will have neither, and this compact or mean is called justice, but is really the impossibility of doing injustice. No one would observe such a compact if he were not obliged. Let us suppose that the just and unjust have two rings, like that of Gyges in the well-known story, which make them invisible, and then no difference will appear in them, for every one will do evil if he can. And he who abstains will be regarded by the world as a fool for his pains. Men may praise him in public out of fear for themselves, but they will laugh at him in their hearts (Cp. Gorgias.)

"Doing wrong is considered a good thing, while experiencing wrongdoing is seen as bad. Since the harm is found through experience to be greater than the benefit, those who suffer but cannot inflict harm make an agreement that they will avoid both, and this agreement or middle ground is known as justice, but it really just shows that it's impossible to do wrong. No one would stick to such an agreement if they weren't forced to. Imagine if both the just and the unjust had two rings, like Gyges' ring in that famous story, that made them invisible; then there would be no difference between them, as everyone would commit wrongs if they could. Those who choose not to will be viewed as fools for their efforts. People might praise them publicly out of fear for their own wellbeing, but they will secretly mock them."

‘And now let us frame an ideal of the just and unjust. Imagine the unjust man to be master of his craft, seldom making mistakes and easily correcting them; having gifts of money, speech, strength—the greatest villain bearing the highest character: and at his side let us place the just in his nobleness and simplicity—being, not seeming—without name or reward—clothed in his justice only—the best of men who is thought to be the worst, and let him die as he has lived. I might add (but I would rather put the rest into the mouth of the panegyrists of injustice—they will tell you) that the just man will be scourged, racked, bound, will have his eyes put out, and will at last be crucified (literally impaled)—and all this because he ought to have preferred seeming to being. How different is the case of the unjust who clings to appearance as the true reality! His high character makes him a ruler; he can marry where he likes, trade where he likes, help his friends and hurt his enemies; having got rich by dishonesty he can worship the gods better, and will therefore be more loved by them than the just.’

‘Now, let’s create an idea of what’s just and what’s unjust. Picture the unjust person as a master of his trade, rarely making mistakes and easily fixing them; he has wealth, charisma, and strength—the biggest villain who also has a great reputation. Next to him, let’s put the just man, noble and simple—he is who he is, not just pretending—without fame or reward—clothed only in his justice—he's the best person who is seen as the worst, and he dies as he lived. I could add (but I’d rather let the admirers of injustice say it—they’ll tell you) that the just man will be whipped, tortured, bound, blinded, and eventually crucified (literally impaled)—all because he should have preferred looking good over being good. The unjust man, who focuses on appearances as the real truth, has a high reputation that makes him a leader; he can marry whoever he wants, trade wherever he chooses, help his friends and hurt his foes; having gotten rich through dishonesty, he can worship the gods better and will be loved by them more than the just man.’

I was thinking what to answer, when Adeimantus joined in the already unequal fray. He considered that the most important point of all had been omitted:—‘Men are taught to be just for the sake of rewards; parents and guardians make reputation the incentive to virtue. And other advantages are promised by them of a more solid kind, such as wealthy marriages and high offices. There are the pictures in Homer and Hesiod of fat sheep and heavy fleeces, rich corn-fields and trees toppling with fruit, which the gods provide in this life for the just. And the Orphic poets add a similar picture of another. The heroes of Musaeus and Eumolpus lie on couches at a festival, with garlands on their heads, enjoying as the meed of virtue a paradise of immortal drunkenness. Some go further, and speak of a fair posterity in the third and fourth generation. But the wicked they bury in a slough and make them carry water in a sieve: and in this life they attribute to them the infamy which Glaucon was assuming to be the lot of the just who are supposed to be unjust.

I was trying to figure out what to say when Adeimantus jumped into the already uneven discussion. He pointed out that the biggest point had been overlooked: “People are taught to be just for the sake of rewards; parents and guardians use reputation as a motivation for virtue. They promise other tangible benefits, like wealthy marriages and high-status jobs. There are images in Homer and Hesiod of fat sheep and heavy fleeces, rich farmlands, and trees weighed down with fruit that the gods provide in this life for those who are just. The Orphic poets paint a similar picture of another world. The heroes described by Musaeus and Eumolpus relax on couches at a feast, wearing garlands on their heads, enjoying a paradise of eternal revelry as a reward for their virtue. Some people go even further and talk about having descendants who will thrive for generations to come. But the wicked, on the other hand, are made to slog through the mud and carry water in a sieve; in this life, they are given the infamy that Glaucon believed was the fate of the just who are thought to be unjust.”

‘Take another kind of argument which is found both in poetry and prose:—“Virtue,” as Hesiod says, “is honourable but difficult, vice is easy and profitable.” You may often see the wicked in great prosperity and the righteous afflicted by the will of heaven. And mendicant prophets knock at rich men’s doors, promising to atone for the sins of themselves or their fathers in an easy fashion with sacrifices and festive games, or with charms and invocations to get rid of an enemy good or bad by divine help and at a small charge;—they appeal to books professing to be written by Musaeus and Orpheus, and carry away the minds of whole cities, and promise to “get souls out of purgatory;” and if we refuse to listen to them, no one knows what will happen to us.

“Consider another type of argument that appears in both poetry and prose: ‘Virtue,’ as Hesiod says, ‘is admirable but challenging, while vice is easy and rewarding.’ You often see the wicked thriving and the righteous suffering due to fate. And wandering prophets knock on the doors of the wealthy, claiming they can make up for their own or their ancestors' sins easily through sacrifices, celebrations, or with spells and rituals to eliminate an enemy, whether good or bad, with divine assistance for a small fee; they reference texts supposedly written by Musaeus and Orpheus, capturing the attention of entire cities, and promise to ‘free souls from purgatory.’ If we choose to ignore them, nobody knows what might happen to us.”

‘When a lively-minded ingenuous youth hears all this, what will be his conclusion? “Will he,” in the language of Pindar, “make justice his high tower, or fortify himself with crooked deceit?” Justice, he reflects, without the appearance of justice, is misery and ruin; injustice has the promise of a glorious life. Appearance is master of truth and lord of happiness. To appearance then I will turn,—I will put on the show of virtue and trail behind me the fox of Archilochus. I hear some one saying that “wickedness is not easily concealed,” to which I reply that “nothing great is easy.” Union and force and rhetoric will do much; and if men say that they cannot prevail over the gods, still how do we know that there are gods? Only from the poets, who acknowledge that they may be appeased by sacrifices. Then why not sin and pay for indulgences out of your sin? For if the righteous are only unpunished, still they have no further reward, while the wicked may be unpunished and have the pleasure of sinning too. But what of the world below? Nay, says the argument, there are atoning powers who will set that matter right, as the poets, who are the sons of the gods, tell us; and this is confirmed by the authority of the State.

‘When a bright, naive young person hears all this, what will be his conclusion? “Will he,” in the words of Pindar, “make justice his stronghold, or protect himself with twisted deceit?” Justice, he thinks, without the appearance of justice, leads to misery and ruin; injustice promises a glorious life. Appearance dominates truth and rules over happiness. So I will focus on appearance—I will pretend to be virtuous and carry along the cunning of Archilochus. I hear someone saying that “wickedness is not easily hidden,” to which I reply that “nothing great is easy.” Unity, strength, and persuasion can accomplish a lot; and if people say that they cannot overcome the gods, how do we even know the gods exist? Only from the poets, who claim they can be appeased with sacrifices. So why not sin and buy indulgences for your wrongdoing? Because if the righteous go unpunished, they receive no further reward, while the wicked can also go unpunished and enjoy the thrill of sinning. But what about the afterlife? No, the argument goes, there are atoning powers that will set things right, as the poets, who are the children of the gods, tell us; and this is backed by the authority of the State.

‘How can we resist such arguments in favour of injustice? Add good manners, and, as the wise tell us, we shall make the best of both worlds. Who that is not a miserable caitiff will refrain from smiling at the praises of justice? Even if a man knows the better part he will not be angry with others; for he knows also that more than human virtue is needed to save a man, and that he only praises justice who is incapable of injustice.

‘How can we ignore arguments that support injustice? With good manners, as the wise say, we can make the most of both worlds. Who, not being a wretched coward, can resist smiling at the praises of justice? Even if someone understands the better path, he won't get mad at others; he knows that more than human virtue is required to save a person, and that only someone incapable of injustice truly praises justice.

‘The origin of the evil is that all men from the beginning, heroes, poets, instructors of youth, have always asserted “the temporal dispensation,” the honours and profits of justice. Had we been taught in early youth the power of justice and injustice inherent in the soul, and unseen by any human or divine eye, we should not have needed others to be our guardians, but every one would have been the guardian of himself. This is what I want you to show, Socrates;—other men use arguments which rather tend to strengthen the position of Thrasymachus that “might is right;” but from you I expect better things. And please, as Glaucon said, to exclude reputation; let the just be thought unjust and the unjust just, and do you still prove to us the superiority of justice’...

‘The root of evil is that from the beginning, all men—heroes, poets, and teachers—have always emphasized “the temporary benefits” of justice, including its rewards and recognition. If we were taught early on about the inherent power of justice and injustice within our souls, invisible to any human or divine observer, we wouldn’t need others to protect us; everyone would be their own protector. This is what I want you to demonstrate, Socrates; other people use arguments that tend to support Thrasymachus’s claim that “might makes right,” but I expect more from you. And, as Glaucon said, let’s ignore reputation; let’s say the just are seen as unjust and the unjust as just, and still, can you prove the superiority of justice?’

The thesis, which for the sake of argument has been maintained by Glaucon, is the converse of that of Thrasymachus—not right is the interest of the stronger, but right is the necessity of the weaker. Starting from the same premises he carries the analysis of society a step further back;—might is still right, but the might is the weakness of the many combined against the strength of the few.

The thesis that Glaucon puts forth, for the sake of argument, goes against Thrasymachus's view—it's not the strong who define what's right; instead, what's right is determined by the needs of the weak. Building on the same ideas, he takes the analysis of society a step further; power still dictates what's right, but that power comes from the collective weakness of the many standing against the strength of a few.

There have been theories in modern as well as in ancient times which have a family likeness to the speculations of Glaucon; e.g. that power is the foundation of right; or that a monarch has a divine right to govern well or ill; or that virtue is self-love or the love of power; or that war is the natural state of man; or that private vices are public benefits. All such theories have a kind of plausibility from their partial agreement with experience. For human nature oscillates between good and evil, and the motives of actions and the origin of institutions may be explained to a certain extent on either hypothesis according to the character or point of view of a particular thinker. The obligation of maintaining authority under all circumstances and sometimes by rather questionable means is felt strongly and has become a sort of instinct among civilized men. The divine right of kings, or more generally of governments, is one of the forms under which this natural feeling is expressed. Nor again is there any evil which has not some accompaniment of good or pleasure; nor any good which is free from some alloy of evil; nor any noble or generous thought which may not be attended by a shadow or the ghost of a shadow of self-interest or of self-love. We know that all human actions are imperfect; but we do not therefore attribute them to the worse rather than to the better motive or principle. Such a philosophy is both foolish and false, like that opinion of the clever rogue who assumes all other men to be like himself. And theories of this sort do not represent the real nature of the State, which is based on a vague sense of right gradually corrected and enlarged by custom and law (although capable also of perversion), any more than they describe the origin of society, which is to be sought in the family and in the social and religious feelings of man. Nor do they represent the average character of individuals, which cannot be explained simply on a theory of evil, but has always a counteracting element of good. And as men become better such theories appear more and more untruthful to them, because they are more conscious of their own disinterestedness. A little experience may make a man a cynic; a great deal will bring him back to a truer and kindlier view of the mixed nature of himself and his fellow men.

There have been theories in both modern and ancient times that resemble Glaucon's ideas, like the belief that power is the basis of what is right; that a ruler has a divine right to govern well or poorly; that virtue is about self-love or power; that war is the natural state of humanity; or that private vices can benefit the public. These theories seem somewhat plausible because they partially align with our experiences. Human nature swings between good and evil, and the reasons behind actions and the beginnings of social institutions can be interpreted in different ways depending on the perspective of the thinker. The pressure to uphold authority at all costs, sometimes using questionable methods, is deeply ingrained in civilized societies. The idea of the divine right of kings, or of governments in general, is one way this instinct is shown. Furthermore, there’s no evil that doesn’t have some aspect of good or pleasure associated with it, nor any good that exists without some mix of evil; even the noblest thoughts can have a hint of self-interest or self-love. We understand that all human actions are flawed, but we don’t automatically assume they stem from the worst rather than the best motivations or principles. Such thinking is both foolish and untrue, like the belief of a clever trickster who thinks everyone else is just like him. These theories fail to capture the true nature of the State, which is grounded in a vague sense of right that is slowly refined and expanded through customs and laws (although it can also be twisted), just as they don’t accurately explain the origins of society, which comes from family ties and the social and religious instincts of people. They also misrepresent the average character of individuals, which can’t just be explained by evil but always includes a counterbalancing element of good. As people improve, these theories start to seem increasingly false to them because they become more aware of their own selflessness. A bit of experience can turn someone into a cynic; a lot can lead them back to a more accurate and compassionate understanding of the mixed nature of themselves and others.

The two brothers ask Socrates to prove to them that the just is happy when they have taken from him all that in which happiness is ordinarily supposed to consist. Not that there is (1) any absurdity in the attempt to frame a notion of justice apart from circumstances. For the ideal must always be a paradox when compared with the ordinary conditions of human life. Neither the Stoical ideal nor the Christian ideal is true as a fact, but they may serve as a basis of education, and may exercise an ennobling influence. An ideal is none the worse because ‘some one has made the discovery’ that no such ideal was ever realized. And in a few exceptional individuals who are raised above the ordinary level of humanity, the ideal of happiness may be realized in death and misery. This may be the state which the reason deliberately approves, and which the utilitarian as well as every other moralist may be bound in certain cases to prefer.

The two brothers ask Socrates to show them that being just leads to happiness, even after they’ve taken away everything that happiness usually involves. It’s not absurd to try to define justice without considering circumstances. The ideal will always seem contradictory when compared to the typical experiences of human life. Neither the Stoic ideal nor the Christian ideal is factually true, but they can be useful for education and can inspire a noble influence. An ideal doesn’t lose its value just because someone has pointed out that it was never truly achieved. In a few exceptional people who rise above the average human experience, the ideal of happiness might be found even in death and suffering. This may be the state that reason consciously supports, and which utilitarians, as well as other moralists, may be compelled to prefer in certain situations.

Nor again, (2) must we forget that Plato, though he agrees generally with the view implied in the argument of the two brothers, is not expressing his own final conclusion, but rather seeking to dramatize one of the aspects of ethical truth. He is developing his idea gradually in a series of positions or situations. He is exhibiting Socrates for the first time undergoing the Socratic interrogation. Lastly, (3) the word ‘happiness’ involves some degree of confusion because associated in the language of modern philosophy with conscious pleasure or satisfaction, which was not equally present to his mind.

Nor again, (2) should we forget that Plato, while he generally agrees with the viewpoint implied in the argument of the two brothers, is not stating his own final conclusion. Instead, he is trying to highlight one of the aspects of ethical truth. He is developing his idea step by step through a series of positions or situations. He is showing Socrates for the first time going through the Socratic questioning. Lastly, (3) the word ‘happiness’ can be a bit confusing because it is linked in modern philosophy to conscious pleasure or satisfaction, which wasn't equally present in his mind.

Glaucon has been drawing a picture of the misery of the just and the happiness of the unjust, to which the misery of the tyrant in Book IX is the answer and parallel. And still the unjust must appear just; that is ‘the homage which vice pays to virtue.’ But now Adeimantus, taking up the hint which had been already given by Glaucon, proceeds to show that in the opinion of mankind justice is regarded only for the sake of rewards and reputation, and points out the advantage which is given to such arguments as those of Thrasymachus and Glaucon by the conventional morality of mankind. He seems to feel the difficulty of ‘justifying the ways of God to man.’ Both the brothers touch upon the question, whether the morality of actions is determined by their consequences; and both of them go beyond the position of Socrates, that justice belongs to the class of goods not desirable for themselves only, but desirable for themselves and for their results, to which he recalls them. In their attempt to view justice as an internal principle, and in their condemnation of the poets, they anticipate him. The common life of Greece is not enough for them; they must penetrate deeper into the nature of things.

Glaucon has been illustrating the suffering of the just and the happiness of the unjust, which is mirrored by the suffering of the tyrant in Book IX. However, the unjust must still appear just; that’s the respect that wrongdoing pays to goodness. Now, Adeimantus, picking up on Glaucon's earlier point, argues that people believe in justice mainly for the rewards and reputation it brings, highlighting how arguments like those from Thrasymachus and Glaucon benefit from society's conventional morality. He seems to sense the challenge of “justifying the ways of God to man.” Both brothers discuss whether the morality of actions is determined by their outcomes, and they both challenge Socrates' view that justice is a type of good that is desirable not only for itself but also for its results, which he reminds them of. In their effort to see justice as an inner principle and in their criticism of the poets, they go beyond him. The everyday life of Greece isn’t enough for them; they need to dig deeper into the essence of things.

It has been objected that justice is honesty in the sense of Glaucon and Adeimantus, but is taken by Socrates to mean all virtue. May we not more truly say that the old-fashioned notion of justice is enlarged by Socrates, and becomes equivalent to universal order or well-being, first in the State, and secondly in the individual? He has found a new answer to his old question (Protag.), ‘whether the virtues are one or many,’ viz. that one is the ordering principle of the three others. In seeking to establish the purely internal nature of justice, he is met by the fact that man is a social being, and he tries to harmonise the two opposite theses as well as he can. There is no more inconsistency in this than was inevitable in his age and country; there is no use in turning upon him the cross lights of modern philosophy, which, from some other point of view, would appear equally inconsistent. Plato does not give the final solution of philosophical questions for us; nor can he be judged of by our standard.

It has been argued that justice is honesty, as Glaucon and Adeimantus define it, but Socrates understands it to mean all virtue. Can we say that Socrates expands upon the traditional idea of justice, making it synonymous with universal order or well-being, first in the State and then in the individual? He has found a new answer to his old question (Protag.), ‘are virtues one or many?’—specifically, that one is the organizing principle of the three others. In trying to establish the internal nature of justice, he faces the reality that humans are social beings, and he attempts to reconcile these two opposing ideas as best he can. There’s no more inconsistency in this than was unavoidable in his time and place; it's pointless to apply modern philosophical perspectives that might seem equally inconsistent from another angle. Plato does not provide the final answers to philosophical questions for us, nor can he be judged by our standards.

The remainder of the Republic is developed out of the question of the sons of Ariston. Three points are deserving of remark in what immediately follows:—First, that the answer of Socrates is altogether indirect. He does not say that happiness consists in the contemplation of the idea of justice, and still less will he be tempted to affirm the Stoical paradox that the just man can be happy on the rack. But first he dwells on the difficulty of the problem and insists on restoring man to his natural condition, before he will answer the question at all. He too will frame an ideal, but his ideal comprehends not only abstract justice, but the whole relations of man. Under the fanciful illustration of the large letters he implies that he will only look for justice in society, and that from the State he will proceed to the individual. His answer in substance amounts to this,—that under favourable conditions, i.e. in the perfect State, justice and happiness will coincide, and that when justice has been once found, happiness may be left to take care of itself. That he falls into some degree of inconsistency, when in the tenth book he claims to have got rid of the rewards and honours of justice, may be admitted; for he has left those which exist in the perfect State. And the philosopher ‘who retires under the shelter of a wall’ can hardly have been esteemed happy by him, at least not in this world. Still he maintains the true attitude of moral action. Let a man do his duty first, without asking whether he will be happy or not, and happiness will be the inseparable accident which attends him. ‘Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.’

The rest of the Republic is developed from the question about the sons of Ariston. Three points deserve mention in what follows: First, Socrates' response is entirely indirect. He doesn't claim that happiness comes from contemplating the idea of justice, and he definitely won't agree with the Stoic idea that a just person can be happy while suffering. Instead, he focuses on the difficulty of the issue and insists on restoring humanity to its natural state before answering the question. He will create an ideal, but his ideal includes not just abstract justice, but all human relationships. Through the imaginative example of large letters, he suggests that he will only search for justice in society, and that he will move from the State to the individual. Essentially, his answer is that under favorable conditions, meaning in the perfect State, justice and happiness will align, and once justice is established, happiness can take care of itself. It's acknowledged that he falls into some inconsistency when, in the tenth book, he claims to have eliminated the rewards and honors of justice, as he still acknowledges those that exist in the perfect State. Moreover, the philosopher ‘who retreats under the shelter of a wall’ likely wouldn't be considered truly happy by him, at least not in this life. Still, he upholds the proper approach to moral action. A person should do their duty first, without worrying about whether they will be happy, and happiness will naturally follow. ‘Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.’

Secondly, it may be remarked that Plato preserves the genuine character of Greek thought in beginning with the State and in going on to the individual. First ethics, then politics—this is the order of ideas to us; the reverse is the order of history. Only after many struggles of thought does the individual assert his right as a moral being. In early ages he is not ONE, but one of many, the citizen of a State which is prior to him; and he has no notion of good or evil apart from the law of his country or the creed of his church. And to this type he is constantly tending to revert, whenever the influence of custom, or of party spirit, or the recollection of the past becomes too strong for him.

Secondly, it’s worth noting that Plato captures the true essence of Greek thought by starting with the State and then moving to the individual. For us, it’s ethics first, then politics; in history, it’s the other way around. It takes a lot of intellectual struggle for the individual to claim their rights as a moral being. In earlier times, he isn’t ONE, but rather one among many, a citizen of a State that exists before him, and he has no concept of good or evil outside of his country’s laws or his church’s beliefs. He frequently tends to fall back into this mindset whenever the pressure of tradition, party loyalty, or the weight of the past becomes too overwhelming.

Thirdly, we may observe the confusion or identification of the individual and the State, of ethics and politics, which pervades early Greek speculation, and even in modern times retains a certain degree of influence. The subtle difference between the collective and individual action of mankind seems to have escaped early thinkers, and we too are sometimes in danger of forgetting the conditions of united human action, whenever we either elevate politics into ethics, or lower ethics to the standard of politics. The good man and the good citizen only coincide in the perfect State; and this perfection cannot be attained by legislation acting upon them from without, but, if at all, by education fashioning them from within.

Thirdly, we can notice the confusion or blending of the individual and the State, and of ethics and politics, that runs throughout early Greek thinking, and even in modern times still has some influence. The subtle difference between collective and individual actions of people seems to have been overlooked by early thinkers, and we too sometimes risk forgetting the conditions of united human action whenever we either elevate politics to the level of ethics or diminish ethics to fit politics. A good person and a good citizen only align in a perfect State; and this perfection can't be achieved through legislation imposed from the outside, but, if it is to be achieved at all, through education shaping them from within.

...Socrates praises the sons of Ariston, ‘inspired offspring of the renowned hero,’ as the elegiac poet terms them; but he does not understand how they can argue so eloquently on behalf of injustice while their character shows that they are uninfluenced by their own arguments. He knows not how to answer them, although he is afraid of deserting justice in the hour of need. He therefore makes a condition, that having weak eyes he shall be allowed to read the large letters first and then go on to the smaller, that is, he must look for justice in the State first, and will then proceed to the individual. Accordingly he begins to construct the State.

...Socrates praises the sons of Ariston, ‘inspired offspring of the renowned hero,’ as the elegiac poet calls them; but he doesn't understand how they can argue so convincingly for injustice while their character shows they aren't swayed by their own arguments. He doesn’t know how to respond to them, even though he’s worried about abandoning justice in a critical moment. So, he sets a condition: since he has weak eyes, he should be allowed to read the larger letters first and then move on to the smaller ones. This means he must first search for justice in the State before addressing it in individuals. So, he starts to build the State.

Society arises out of the wants of man. His first want is food; his second a house; his third a coat. The sense of these needs and the possibility of satisfying them by exchange, draw individuals together on the same spot; and this is the beginning of a State, which we take the liberty to invent, although necessity is the real inventor. There must be first a husbandman, secondly a builder, thirdly a weaver, to which may be added a cobbler. Four or five citizens at least are required to make a city. Now men have different natures, and one man will do one thing better than many; and business waits for no man. Hence there must be a division of labour into different employments; into wholesale and retail trade; into workers, and makers of workmen’s tools; into shepherds and husbandmen. A city which includes all this will have far exceeded the limit of four or five, and yet not be very large. But then again imports will be required, and imports necessitate exports, and this implies variety of produce in order to attract the taste of purchasers; also merchants and ships. In the city too we must have a market and money and retail trades; otherwise buyers and sellers will never meet, and the valuable time of the producers will be wasted in vain efforts at exchange. If we add hired servants the State will be complete. And we may guess that somewhere in the intercourse of the citizens with one another justice and injustice will appear.

Society is shaped by human needs. The first need is food; the second is shelter; the third is clothing. The awareness of these needs and the ability to meet them through exchange bring people together in one place; this marks the start of a State, which we claim to create, although necessity is the true creator. First, there has to be a farmer, next a builder, then a weaver, and possibly a shoemaker. At least four or five people are needed to establish a city. People have different abilities, and one person will excel at something better than others; time waits for no one. Therefore, there must be a division of labor into different jobs; into wholesale and retail trade; into laborers and makers of tools; into shepherds and farmers. A city that encompasses all this will exceed the count of four or five and still not be very large. However, imports will be necessary, and imports require exports, which means there must be a variety of products to attract buyers; this also involves merchants and ships. In the city, we also need a marketplace, currency, and retail businesses; otherwise, buyers and sellers won't connect, and the valuable time of producers will be wasted in futile attempts to trade. If we include hired workers, the State will be complete. It's likely that in the interactions among citizens, concepts of justice and injustice will emerge.

Here follows a rustic picture of their way of life. They spend their days in houses which they have built for themselves; they make their own clothes and produce their own corn and wine. Their principal food is meal and flour, and they drink in moderation. They live on the best of terms with each other, and take care not to have too many children. ‘But,’ said Glaucon, interposing, ‘are they not to have a relish?’ Certainly; they will have salt and olives and cheese, vegetables and fruits, and chestnuts to roast at the fire. ‘’Tis a city of pigs, Socrates.’ Why, I replied, what do you want more? ‘Only the comforts of life,—sofas and tables, also sauces and sweets.’ I see; you want not only a State, but a luxurious State; and possibly in the more complex frame we may sooner find justice and injustice. Then the fine arts must go to work—every conceivable instrument and ornament of luxury will be wanted. There will be dancers, painters, sculptors, musicians, cooks, barbers, tire-women, nurses, artists; swineherds and neatherds too for the animals, and physicians to cure the disorders of which luxury is the source. To feed all these superfluous mouths we shall need a part of our neighbour’s land, and they will want a part of ours. And this is the origin of war, which may be traced to the same causes as other political evils. Our city will now require the slight addition of a camp, and the citizen will be converted into a soldier. But then again our old doctrine of the division of labour must not be forgotten. The art of war cannot be learned in a day, and there must be a natural aptitude for military duties. There will be some warlike natures who have this aptitude—dogs keen of scent, swift of foot to pursue, and strong of limb to fight. And as spirit is the foundation of courage, such natures, whether of men or animals, will be full of spirit. But these spirited natures are apt to bite and devour one another; the union of gentleness to friends and fierceness against enemies appears to be an impossibility, and the guardian of a State requires both qualities. Who then can be a guardian? The image of the dog suggests an answer. For dogs are gentle to friends and fierce to strangers. Your dog is a philosopher who judges by the rule of knowing or not knowing; and philosophy, whether in man or beast, is the parent of gentleness. The human watchdogs must be philosophers or lovers of learning which will make them gentle. And how are they to be learned without education?

Here's a simple portrayal of their lifestyle. They spend their days in homes they've built for themselves; they make their own clothes and grow their own corn and wine. Their main food is meal and flour, and they drink in moderation. They get along well with each other and are careful not to have too many kids. “But,” Glaucon interjected, “aren’t they supposed to have some flavor?” Of course; they’ll have salt, olives, cheese, vegetables, fruits, and chestnuts to roast by the fire. “It’s a city of pigs, Socrates.” Well, I replied, what else do you want? “Just the comforts of life—sofas and tables, plus sauces and sweets.” I see; you want not just a state, but a luxurious state; and in this more complex setup, we might find justice and injustice more easily. Then the fine arts need to get involved—all sorts of luxurious instruments and decorations will be necessary. There will be dancers, painters, sculptors, musicians, cooks, barbers, hairdressers, nurses, artists; there will also need to be swineherds and herdsmen for the animals, and doctors to treat the issues that come from luxury. To feed all these extra mouths, we’ll need some of our neighbor’s land, and they’ll want a part of ours. And this is how war starts, which can be traced back to the same causes as other political problems. Our city will now need a bit of a military presence, and the citizens will become soldiers. But we must not forget our old idea about the division of labor. You can’t master the art of war in a day; there has to be a natural talent for military duties. Some people will have this warlike nature—dogs that are keen in their senses, fast to chase, and strong to fight. And since spirit is the foundation of courage, these spirited beings, whether human or animal, will be full of energy. But these spirited beings tend to bite and devour one another; it seems impossible to combine gentleness towards friends with fierceness against enemies, yet the protector of a state needs both traits. So, who can be a protector? The image of a dog offers a clue. Dogs are gentle with friends and fierce towards strangers. Your dog is a philosopher who judges based on knowing or not knowing; and philosophy, whether in humans or animals, brings about gentleness. The human guards must be philosophers or lovers of learning to make them gentle. And how can they be knowledgeable without education?

But what shall their education be? Is any better than the old-fashioned sort which is comprehended under the name of music and gymnastic? Music includes literature, and literature is of two kinds, true and false. ‘What do you mean?’ he said. I mean that children hear stories before they learn gymnastics, and that the stories are either untrue, or have at most one or two grains of truth in a bushel of falsehood. Now early life is very impressible, and children ought not to learn what they will have to unlearn when they grow up; we must therefore have a censorship of nursery tales, banishing some and keeping others. Some of them are very improper, as we may see in the great instances of Homer and Hesiod, who not only tell lies but bad lies; stories about Uranus and Saturn, which are immoral as well as false, and which should never be spoken of to young persons, or indeed at all; or, if at all, then in a mystery, after the sacrifice, not of an Eleusinian pig, but of some unprocurable animal. Shall our youth be encouraged to beat their fathers by the example of Zeus, or our citizens be incited to quarrel by hearing or seeing representations of strife among the gods? Shall they listen to the narrative of Hephaestus binding his mother, and of Zeus sending him flying for helping her when she was beaten? Such tales may possibly have a mystical interpretation, but the young are incapable of understanding allegory. If any one asks what tales are to be allowed, we will answer that we are legislators and not book-makers; we only lay down the principles according to which books are to be written; to write them is the duty of others.

But what kind of education should they have? Is there anything better than the old-fashioned approach known as music and gymnastics? Music encompasses literature, which comes in two forms: true and false. “What do you mean?” he asked. I mean that children hear stories before they learn gymnastics, and those stories are either untrue or contain only a tiny bit of truth amid a lot of falsehood. Early life is very impressionable, and children shouldn’t learn things they’ll have to unlearn when they grow up; therefore, we need to have a control over nursery tales, removing some and keeping others. Some of them are quite inappropriate, as we can see in the great examples of Homer and Hesiod, who not only tell lies but also immoral ones—stories about Uranus and Saturn that are both false and wrong, and should never be told to young people, or if they must be mentioned at all, only in a mystery after a sacrifice, not of an Eleusinian pig, but of some rare animal. Should we encourage our youth to overtake their fathers by the example of Zeus, or inspire our citizens to fight by exposing them to conflicts among the gods? Should they hear about Hephaestus binding his mother, and how Zeus sent him flying for helping her when she was beaten? Such stories might have a deeper meaning, but young people can't grasp allegory. If anyone asks which tales should be allowed, we’ll reply that we’re lawmakers, not authors; we only set the principles for how books should be written; it's up to others to write them.

And our first principle is, that God must be represented as he is; not as the author of all things, but of good only. We will not suffer the poets to say that he is the steward of good and evil, or that he has two casks full of destinies;—or that Athene and Zeus incited Pandarus to break the treaty; or that God caused the sufferings of Niobe, or of Pelops, or the Trojan war; or that he makes men sin when he wishes to destroy them. Either these were not the actions of the gods, or God was just, and men were the better for being punished. But that the deed was evil, and God the author, is a wicked, suicidal fiction which we will allow no one, old or young, to utter. This is our first and great principle—God is the author of good only.

And our first principle is that God should be represented as He truly is; not as the creator of everything, but only of good. We won't let poets say that He manages both good and evil, or that He has two jars full of destinies;—or that Athena and Zeus pushed Pandarus to break the treaty; or that God caused the suffering of Niobe, Pelops, or the Trojan War; or that He makes people sin when He wants to punish them. Either these weren't the actions of the gods, or God was just, and people benefited from being punished. But to say that an evil act is authored by God is a harmful, destructive fiction that we won't allow anyone, young or old, to express. This is our first and foremost principle—God is only the author of good.

And the second principle is like unto it:—With God is no variableness or change of form. Reason teaches us this; for if we suppose a change in God, he must be changed either by another or by himself. By another?—but the best works of nature and art and the noblest qualities of mind are least liable to be changed by any external force. By himself?—but he cannot change for the better; he will hardly change for the worse. He remains for ever fairest and best in his own image. Therefore we refuse to listen to the poets who tell us of Here begging in the likeness of a priestess or of other deities who prowl about at night in strange disguises; all that blasphemous nonsense with which mothers fool the manhood out of their children must be suppressed. But some one will say that God, who is himself unchangeable, may take a form in relation to us. Why should he? For gods as well as men hate the lie in the soul, or principle of falsehood; and as for any other form of lying which is used for a purpose and is regarded as innocent in certain exceptional cases—what need have the gods of this? For they are not ignorant of antiquity like the poets, nor are they afraid of their enemies, nor is any madman a friend of theirs. God then is true, he is absolutely true; he changes not, he deceives not, by day or night, by word or sign. This is our second great principle—God is true. Away with the lying dream of Agamemnon in Homer, and the accusation of Thetis against Apollo in Aeschylus...

And the second principle is similar: God does not change or vary in form. Reason tells us this; if we think of God changing, he must be changed either by something else or by himself. Changed by something else? The finest works of nature and art and the highest qualities of the mind are the least affected by external forces. Changed by himself? He can’t change for the better; it’s unlikely he would change for the worse. He remains forever the most beautiful and the best in his own image. Therefore, we won't listen to the poets who tell us about deities like Hera begging in the guise of a priestess or other gods who wander around at night in strange disguises; all that blasphemous nonsense that mothers use to keep their children naive must be shut down. But some may argue that God, being unchangeable, can take on forms in relation to us. Why would he? Just like humans, gods hate the lie in the soul, the principle of falsehood; and as for any other form of deception used for a purpose and seen as innocent in specific cases—what do the gods need that for? They are not ignorant of the past like the poets, nor do they fear their enemies, nor does any madman consider them a friend. So God is true; he is absolutely true; he does not change, he does not deceive, neither by day nor night, nor by word or sign. This is our second great principle—God is true. Let's discard the deceptive dream of Agamemnon in Homer and the accusation of Thetis against Apollo in Aeschylus...

In order to give clearness to his conception of the State, Plato proceeds to trace the first principles of mutual need and of division of labour in an imaginary community of four or five citizens. Gradually this community increases; the division of labour extends to countries; imports necessitate exports; a medium of exchange is required, and retailers sit in the market-place to save the time of the producers. These are the steps by which Plato constructs the first or primitive State, introducing the elements of political economy by the way. As he is going to frame a second or civilized State, the simple naturally comes before the complex. He indulges, like Rousseau, in a picture of primitive life—an idea which has indeed often had a powerful influence on the imagination of mankind, but he does not seriously mean to say that one is better than the other (Politicus); nor can any inference be drawn from the description of the first state taken apart from the second, such as Aristotle appears to draw in the Politics. We should not interpret a Platonic dialogue any more than a poem or a parable in too literal or matter-of-fact a style. On the other hand, when we compare the lively fancy of Plato with the dried-up abstractions of modern treatises on philosophy, we are compelled to say with Protagoras, that the ‘mythus is more interesting’ (Protag.)

To clarify his ideas about the State, Plato outlines the basic principles of mutual need and division of labor in a fictional community of four or five citizens. Over time, this community grows; the division of labor expands to different regions; imports require exports; a medium of exchange is needed, and merchants gather in the market to save producers' time. These are the steps through which Plato constructs the first or basic State, subtly introducing elements of political economy along the way. As he prepares to create a second or civilized State, he presents the simple before the complex. He paints a picture of primitive life similar to Rousseau, an idea that has often captivated people's imaginations, but he doesn't seriously claim that one is better than the other (Politicus). Nor can any conclusions be drawn from the description of the first state when separated from the second, as Aristotle seems to suggest in the Politics. We shouldn't interpret a Platonic dialogue any more rigidly than a poem or a parable. However, when we compare Plato's vibrant imagination with the dry abstractions of modern philosophical writings, we must agree with Protagoras that the 'mythos is more interesting' (Protag.).

Several interesting remarks which in modern times would have a place in a treatise on Political Economy are scattered up and down the writings of Plato: especially Laws, Population; Free Trade; Adulteration; Wills and Bequests; Begging; Eryxias, (though not Plato’s), Value and Demand; Republic, Division of Labour. The last subject, and also the origin of Retail Trade, is treated with admirable lucidity in the second book of the Republic. But Plato never combined his economic ideas into a system, and never seems to have recognized that Trade is one of the great motive powers of the State and of the world. He would make retail traders only of the inferior sort of citizens (Rep., Laws), though he remarks, quaintly enough (Laws), that ‘if only the best men and the best women everywhere were compelled to keep taverns for a time or to carry on retail trade, etc., then we should knew how pleasant and agreeable all these things are.’

Several interesting points that today would fit well in a discussion on Political Economy are scattered throughout Plato's writings, especially in Laws, Population; Free Trade; Adulteration; Wills and Bequests; Begging; Eryxias (though not by Plato), Value and Demand; and Republic, Division of Labour. The last topic, along with the origin of Retail Trade, is discussed with outstanding clarity in the second book of the Republic. However, Plato never integrated his economic ideas into a cohesive system and didn’t seem to acknowledge that Trade is one of the major driving forces of the State and the world. He considered retail traders to be of the lower class of citizens (Rep., Laws), although he interestingly notes (Laws) that “if only the best men and the best women everywhere were required to run taverns or engage in retail trade for a time, we would understand how pleasant and enjoyable all these activities are.”

The disappointment of Glaucon at the ‘city of pigs,’ the ludicrous description of the ministers of luxury in the more refined State, and the afterthought of the necessity of doctors, the illustration of the nature of the guardian taken from the dog, the desirableness of offering some almost unprocurable victim when impure mysteries are to be celebrated, the behaviour of Zeus to his father and of Hephaestus to his mother, are touches of humour which have also a serious meaning. In speaking of education Plato rather startles us by affirming that a child must be trained in falsehood first and in truth afterwards. Yet this is not very different from saying that children must be taught through the medium of imagination as well as reason; that their minds can only develope gradually, and that there is much which they must learn without understanding. This is also the substance of Plato’s view, though he must be acknowledged to have drawn the line somewhat differently from modern ethical writers, respecting truth and falsehood. To us, economies or accommodations would not be allowable unless they were required by the human faculties or necessary for the communication of knowledge to the simple and ignorant. We should insist that the word was inseparable from the intention, and that we must not be ‘falsely true,’ i.e. speak or act falsely in support of what was right or true. But Plato would limit the use of fictions only by requiring that they should have a good moral effect, and that such a dangerous weapon as falsehood should be employed by the rulers alone and for great objects.

Glaucon's disappointment with the ‘city of pigs,’ the ridiculous portrayal of the luxury ministers in the more sophisticated State, and the realization that doctors are needed, along with the analogy of the guardian being like a dog, the desire to offer some hard-to-find victim during impure rituals, and Zeus's behavior towards his father and Hephaestus's behavior towards his mother, all add a touch of humor with deeper meanings. When discussing education, Plato surprises us by stating that a child should first learn falsehood and then the truth. However, this isn’t too different from saying that kids need to be taught using both imagination and reason; their minds develop gradually, and there’s a lot they must learn without fully understanding it. This captures Plato’s perspective, even though he draws the line between truth and falsehood differently than modern ethical writers. For us, any shortcuts would only be acceptable if they stem from human needs or are necessary to convey knowledge to the simple and uninformed. We would argue that a word can’t be separated from intention, and we shouldn’t be ‘falsely true,’ meaning we shouldn’t speak or act falsely to support what’s right or true. But Plato would restrict the use of fictions only by insisting they should have a positive moral impact, and that this dangerous tool of falsehood should only be used by rulers for significant purposes.

A Greek in the age of Plato attached no importance to the question whether his religion was an historical fact. He was just beginning to be conscious that the past had a history; but he could see nothing beyond Homer and Hesiod. Whether their narratives were true or false did not seriously affect the political or social life of Hellas. Men only began to suspect that they were fictions when they recognised them to be immoral. And so in all religions: the consideration of their morality comes first, afterwards the truth of the documents in which they are recorded, or of the events natural or supernatural which are told of them. But in modern times, and in Protestant countries perhaps more than in Catholic, we have been too much inclined to identify the historical with the moral; and some have refused to believe in religion at all, unless a superhuman accuracy was discernible in every part of the record. The facts of an ancient or religious history are amongst the most important of all facts; but they are frequently uncertain, and we only learn the true lesson which is to be gathered from them when we place ourselves above them. These reflections tend to show that the difference between Plato and ourselves, though not unimportant, is not so great as might at first sight appear. For we should agree with him in placing the moral before the historical truth of religion; and, generally, in disregarding those errors or misstatements of fact which necessarily occur in the early stages of all religions. We know also that changes in the traditions of a country cannot be made in a day; and are therefore tolerant of many things which science and criticism would condemn.

A Greek in Plato's time didn’t really care about whether his religion was historically accurate. He was just starting to realize that the past had a history, but he could only see back to Homer and Hesiod. Whether their stories were true or false didn’t significantly impact the political or social life in Greece. People only began to suspect that these narratives were made-up when they recognized them as immoral. This applies to all religions: the focus on their morality comes first, followed by the accuracy of the texts that document them, or the natural or supernatural events associated with them. However, in modern times, especially in Protestant countries more than Catholic ones, we often tend to equate the historical with the moral; some have even rejected religion entirely unless every part of the record shows superhuman accuracy. The facts of ancient or religious history are among the most crucial, but they are often uncertain, and we only learn the real lessons from them when we elevate our perspective. These thoughts suggest that the gap between Plato and us, while not insignificant, isn’t as wide as it might first seem. We would agree with him in prioritizing morality over the historical truth of religion, and generally in overlooking the errors or misstatements that are common in the early phases of all religions. We also understand that changes in a nation's traditions don’t happen overnight, which makes us tolerant of many things that science and criticism might challenge.

We note in passing that the allegorical interpretation of mythology, said to have been first introduced as early as the sixth century before Christ by Theagenes of Rhegium, was well established in the age of Plato, and here, as in the Phaedrus, though for a different reason, was rejected by him. That anachronisms whether of religion or law, when men have reached another stage of civilization, should be got rid of by fictions is in accordance with universal experience. Great is the art of interpretation; and by a natural process, which when once discovered was always going on, what could not be altered was explained away. And so without any palpable inconsistency there existed side by side two forms of religion, the tradition inherited or invented by the poets and the customary worship of the temple; on the other hand, there was the religion of the philosopher, who was dwelling in the heaven of ideas, but did not therefore refuse to offer a cock to Aesculapius, or to be seen saying his prayers at the rising of the sun. At length the antagonism between the popular and philosophical religion, never so great among the Greeks as in our own age, disappeared, and was only felt like the difference between the religion of the educated and uneducated among ourselves. The Zeus of Homer and Hesiod easily passed into the ‘royal mind’ of Plato (Philebus); the giant Heracles became the knight-errant and benefactor of mankind. These and still more wonderful transformations were readily effected by the ingenuity of Stoics and neo-Platonists in the two or three centuries before and after Christ. The Greek and Roman religions were gradually permeated by the spirit of philosophy; having lost their ancient meaning, they were resolved into poetry and morality; and probably were never purer than at the time of their decay, when their influence over the world was waning.

We briefly mention that the allegorical interpretation of mythology, which is said to have been first introduced as early as the sixth century BC by Theagenes of Rhegium, was well established during Plato's time. Here, as in the Phaedrus, he rejected it for different reasons. It is in line with universal experience that anachronisms, whether in religion or law, should be removed through fictions as society reaches a new stage of civilization. The art of interpretation is significant; through a natural process that always took place once discovered, what couldn’t be changed was explained away. Thus, two forms of religion existed side by side without any obvious inconsistency: the traditions inherited or created by poets and the conventional worship of temples. Meanwhile, there was the religion of the philosopher, who lived in the realm of ideas but still didn’t hesitate to offer a rooster to Aesculapius or to be seen praying at sunrise. Eventually, the conflict between popular and philosophical religion, which was never as pronounced among the Greeks as it is in our time, faded away and became similar to the difference between the beliefs of the educated and the uneducated in our society. The Zeus of Homer and Hesiod seamlessly transitioned into the “royal mind” of Plato (Philebus); the giant Heracles evolved into the knight-errant and benefactor of humanity. These and even more incredible changes were easily achieved by the insights of Stoics and neo-Platonists in the two or three centuries before and after Christ. The Greek and Roman religions gradually became infused with philosophical thought; having lost their original meaning, they were transformed into poetry and morality, and likely were never purer than during their decline, when their influence over the world began to fade.

A singular conception which occurs towards the end of the book is the lie in the soul; this is connected with the Platonic and Socratic doctrine that involuntary ignorance is worse than voluntary. The lie in the soul is a true lie, the corruption of the highest truth, the deception of the highest part of the soul, from which he who is deceived has no power of delivering himself. For example, to represent God as false or immoral, or, according to Plato, as deluding men with appearances or as the author of evil; or again, to affirm with Protagoras that ‘knowledge is sensation,’ or that ‘being is becoming,’ or with Thrasymachus ‘that might is right,’ would have been regarded by Plato as a lie of this hateful sort. The greatest unconsciousness of the greatest untruth, e.g. if, in the language of the Gospels (John), ‘he who was blind’ were to say ‘I see,’ is another aspect of the state of mind which Plato is describing. The lie in the soul may be further compared with the sin against the Holy Ghost (Luke), allowing for the difference between Greek and Christian modes of speaking. To this is opposed the lie in words, which is only such a deception as may occur in a play or poem, or allegory or figure of speech, or in any sort of accommodation,—which though useless to the gods may be useful to men in certain cases. Socrates is here answering the question which he had himself raised about the propriety of deceiving a madman; and he is also contrasting the nature of God and man. For God is Truth, but mankind can only be true by appearing sometimes to be partial, or false. Reserving for another place the greater questions of religion or education, we may note further, (1) the approval of the old traditional education of Greece; (2) the preparation which Plato is making for the attack on Homer and the poets; (3) the preparation which he is also making for the use of economies in the State; (4) the contemptuous and at the same time euphemistic manner in which here as below he alludes to the ‘Chronique Scandaleuse’ of the gods.

A unique concept that appears near the end of the book is the lie within the soul; this relates to the Platonic and Socratic idea that involuntary ignorance is worse than voluntary ignorance. The lie in the soul is a true lie, the corruption of the highest truth, the deception of the highest part of the soul, from which someone who is deceived cannot free themselves. For instance, to portray God as false or immoral, or, according to Plato, as misleading people with appearances or as the source of evil; or to affirm, like Protagoras, that 'knowledge is sensation,' or that 'being is becoming,' or to agree with Thrasymachus that 'might is right,' would have been viewed by Plato as a lie of this despicable nature. The deepest unawareness of the greatest untruth, for example, if, using the language of the Gospels (John), 'the one who was blind' were to claim 'I see,' reflects another aspect of the mindset Plato is describing. The lie in the soul can also be compared to the sin against the Holy Ghost (Luke), accounting for the differences between Greek and Christian expressions. This contrasts with the lie in words, which is merely the kind of deception found in a play, poem, allegory, or metaphor, or in any sort of compromise — which, although useless to the gods, may benefit humans in certain situations. Socrates is responding to the question he raised about the ethics of deceiving a madman, while contrasting the nature of God and humanity. For God is Truth, but humans can only be true by sometimes appearing to be partial or dishonest. Setting aside the larger issues of religion or education for another discussion, we can note further: (1) the endorsement of the traditional education of Greece; (2) the groundwork Plato is laying for criticizing Homer and the poets; (3) the preparation he is also making for the use of management in the State; (4) the disdainful yet euphemistic way he references the ‘Chronique Scandaleuse’ of the gods here and elsewhere.

BOOK III. There is another motive in purifying religion, which is to banish fear; for no man can be courageous who is afraid of death, or who believes the tales which are repeated by the poets concerning the world below. They must be gently requested not to abuse hell; they may be reminded that their stories are both untrue and discouraging. Nor must they be angry if we expunge obnoxious passages, such as the depressing words of Achilles—‘I would rather be a serving-man than rule over all the dead;’ and the verses which tell of the squalid mansions, the senseless shadows, the flitting soul mourning over lost strength and youth, the soul with a gibber going beneath the earth like smoke, or the souls of the suitors which flutter about like bats. The terrors and horrors of Cocytus and Styx, ghosts and sapless shades, and the rest of their Tartarean nomenclature, must vanish. Such tales may have their use; but they are not the proper food for soldiers. As little can we admit the sorrows and sympathies of the Homeric heroes:—Achilles, the son of Thetis, in tears, throwing ashes on his head, or pacing up and down the sea-shore in distraction; or Priam, the cousin of the gods, crying aloud, rolling in the mire. A good man is not prostrated at the loss of children or fortune. Neither is death terrible to him; and therefore lamentations over the dead should not be practised by men of note; they should be the concern of inferior persons only, whether women or men. Still worse is the attribution of such weakness to the gods; as when the goddesses say, ‘Alas! my travail!’ and worst of all, when the king of heaven himself laments his inability to save Hector, or sorrows over the impending doom of his dear Sarpedon. Such a character of God, if not ridiculed by our young men, is likely to be imitated by them. Nor should our citizens be given to excess of laughter—‘Such violent delights’ are followed by a violent re-action. The description in the Iliad of the gods shaking their sides at the clumsiness of Hephaestus will not be admitted by us. ‘Certainly not.’

BOOK III. There’s another reason for purifying religion: to eliminate fear. No one can truly be brave if they're afraid of death or if they believe the stories the poets tell about the afterlife. They should be kindly asked not to misuse hell; they can be reminded that their tales are both false and discouraging. And we shouldn’t be met with anger if we remove offensive passages, like the gloomy words of Achilles—‘I would rather be a servant than rule over all the dead;’ and the lines that talk about filthy homes, mindless shadows, the wandering soul mourning over lost strength and youth, the soul that drifts beneath the earth like smoke, or the souls of the suitors flitting around like bats. The fears and horrors of Cocytus and Styx, ghosts and lifeless shades, and all the other terms from Tartarus, must disappear. Such stories may have their purpose, but they aren't suitable for soldiers. We also can't accept the sorrows and sympathies of the heroes in Homer: Achilles, the son of Thetis, weeping, throwing ashes on his head, or wandering the seashore in distress; or Priam, the god's cousin, crying out and rolling in the mud. A good person doesn't crumble at the loss of children or wealth. Death isn't frightening to them; therefore, mourning for the dead shouldn't be practiced by notable individuals; it should only concern lesser people, whether they are men or women. Even worse is when such weakness is attributed to the gods; like when the goddesses say, ‘Alas! my labor!’ and worst of all, when the king of heaven himself grieves his inability to save Hector or mourns the looming fate of his beloved Sarpedon. Such a depiction of God, if not mocked by our young men, is likely to be copied by them. Our citizens shouldn't indulge in excessive laughter—‘Such intense pleasures’ are followed by intense consequences. We will not accept the description in the Iliad of the gods laughing at Hephaestus' clumsiness. ‘Absolutely not.’

Truth should have a high place among the virtues, for falsehood, as we were saying, is useless to the gods, and only useful to men as a medicine. But this employment of falsehood must remain a privilege of state; the common man must not in return tell a lie to the ruler; any more than the patient would tell a lie to his physician, or the sailor to his captain.

Truth should be valued highly among virtues because, as we mentioned, lies are useless to the gods and only beneficial to people as a remedy. However, using lies should be a privilege of the state; the average person should not lie to the ruler, just as a patient wouldn’t lie to their doctor or a sailor to their captain.

In the next place our youth must be temperate, and temperance consists in self-control and obedience to authority. That is a lesson which Homer teaches in some places: ‘The Achaeans marched on breathing prowess, in silent awe of their leaders;’—but a very different one in other places: ‘O heavy with wine, who hast the eyes of a dog, but the heart of a stag.’ Language of the latter kind will not impress self-control on the minds of youth. The same may be said about his praises of eating and drinking and his dread of starvation; also about the verses in which he tells of the rapturous loves of Zeus and Here, or of how Hephaestus once detained Ares and Aphrodite in a net on a similar occasion. There is a nobler strain heard in the words:—‘Endure, my soul, thou hast endured worse.’ Nor must we allow our citizens to receive bribes, or to say, ‘Gifts persuade the gods, gifts reverend kings;’ or to applaud the ignoble advice of Phoenix to Achilles that he should get money out of the Greeks before he assisted them; or the meanness of Achilles himself in taking gifts from Agamemnon; or his requiring a ransom for the body of Hector; or his cursing of Apollo; or his insolence to the river-god Scamander; or his dedication to the dead Patroclus of his own hair which had been already dedicated to the other river-god Spercheius; or his cruelty in dragging the body of Hector round the walls, and slaying the captives at the pyre: such a combination of meanness and cruelty in Cheiron’s pupil is inconceivable. The amatory exploits of Peirithous and Theseus are equally unworthy. Either these so-called sons of gods were not the sons of gods, or they were not such as the poets imagine them, any more than the gods themselves are the authors of evil. The youth who believes that such things are done by those who have the blood of heaven flowing in their veins will be too ready to imitate their example.

Furthermore, our youth need to practice self-control, which means having self-discipline and respecting authority. This is a lesson that Homer conveys in some passages: ‘The Achaeans marched on with determination, silently respecting their leaders;’—but he teaches a very different lesson in others: ‘O heavy with wine, who has a dog’s eyes but a stag’s heart.’ Such language won't instill self-control in young minds. The same applies to his praises of feasting and drinking and his fear of hunger; it also holds true for the verses describing the passionate loves of Zeus and Hera, or how Hephaestus once caught Ares and Aphrodite in a net. There is a more noble tone in the words: ‘Endure, my soul, you have endured worse.’ We must also forbid our citizens from taking bribes or saying, ‘Gifts sway the gods, gifts honor kings;’ or from supporting the disgraceful advice from Phoenix to Achilles to demand money from the Greeks before helping them; or Achilles himself, taking gifts from Agamemnon; or requiring a ransom for Hector’s body; or cursing Apollo; or showing disrespect to the river god Scamander; or dedicating to the deceased Patroclus hair that was already dedicated to the river god Spercheius; or his cruelty in dragging Hector’s body around the walls and killing captives at the pyre: such a mix of meanness and cruelty in Cheiron’s student is unimaginable. The romantic escapades of Peirithous and Theseus are equally unworthy. Either these supposed sons of gods weren't actually sons of gods, or they weren’t as the poets portray them, just as the gods themselves are not the creators of evil. A youth who thinks such behavior is typical of those with divine blood will be all too eager to follow their example.

Enough of gods and heroes;—what shall we say about men? What the poets and story-tellers say—that the wicked prosper and the righteous are afflicted, or that justice is another’s gain? Such misrepresentations cannot be allowed by us. But in this we are anticipating the definition of justice, and had therefore better defer the enquiry.

Enough of gods and heroes; what should we say about people? What the poets and storytellers say—that bad people thrive while good people suffer, or that justice benefits someone else? We can't accept such misrepresentations. But in this, we are getting ahead of the definition of justice, so it’s better to postpone the discussion.

The subjects of poetry have been sufficiently treated; next follows style. Now all poetry is a narrative of events past, present, or to come; and narrative is of three kinds, the simple, the imitative, and a composition of the two. An instance will make my meaning clear. The first scene in Homer is of the last or mixed kind, being partly description and partly dialogue. But if you throw the dialogue into the ‘oratio obliqua,’ the passage will run thus: The priest came and prayed Apollo that the Achaeans might take Troy and have a safe return if Agamemnon would only give him back his daughter; and the other Greeks assented, but Agamemnon was wroth, and so on—The whole then becomes descriptive, and the poet is the only speaker left; or, if you omit the narrative, the whole becomes dialogue. These are the three styles—which of them is to be admitted into our State? ‘Do you ask whether tragedy and comedy are to be admitted?’ Yes, but also something more—Is it not doubtful whether our guardians are to be imitators at all? Or rather, has not the question been already answered, for we have decided that one man cannot in his life play many parts, any more than he can act both tragedy and comedy, or be rhapsodist and actor at once? Human nature is coined into very small pieces, and as our guardians have their own business already, which is the care of freedom, they will have enough to do without imitating. If they imitate they should imitate, not any meanness or baseness, but the good only; for the mask which the actor wears is apt to become his face. We cannot allow men to play the parts of women, quarrelling, weeping, scolding, or boasting against the gods,—least of all when making love or in labour. They must not represent slaves, or bullies, or cowards, drunkards, or madmen, or blacksmiths, or neighing horses, or bellowing bulls, or sounding rivers, or a raging sea. A good or wise man will be willing to perform good and wise actions, but he will be ashamed to play an inferior part which he has never practised; and he will prefer to employ the descriptive style with as little imitation as possible. The man who has no self-respect, on the contrary, will imitate anybody and anything; sounds of nature and cries of animals alike; his whole performance will be imitation of gesture and voice. Now in the descriptive style there are few changes, but in the dramatic there are a great many. Poets and musicians use either, or a compound of both, and this compound is very attractive to youth and their teachers as well as to the vulgar. But our State in which one man plays one part only is not adapted for complexity. And when one of these polyphonous pantomimic gentlemen offers to exhibit himself and his poetry we will show him every observance of respect, but at the same time tell him that there is no room for his kind in our State; we prefer the rough, honest poet, and will not depart from our original models (Laws).

The topics of poetry have been discussed enough; now let’s talk about style. All poetry tells a story about events that have happened, are happening, or will happen; and there are three types of storytelling: simple, imitative, and a mix of both. Let me give you an example to clarify. The first scene in Homer is of the last or mixed kind, including both description and dialogue. If you convert the dialogue into indirect speech, it goes like this: The priest came and prayed to Apollo that the Greeks could take Troy and return home safely if Agamemnon would just give him back his daughter; and the other Greeks agreed, but Agamemnon was angry, and so on—The whole thing then becomes descriptive, with the poet as the only speaker left; or, if you take out the narrative, it becomes all dialogue. These are the three styles—which one should we allow in our State? ‘Are you asking whether tragedy and comedy should be allowed?’ Yes, but also something more—Isn’t it questionable whether our guardians should even be imitators at all? Or rather, haven’t we already addressed this, since we’ve agreed that one person can’t play many roles in life, just like they can’t act in both tragedy and comedy, or be both a rhapsodist and an actor at the same time? Human nature is made up of very small parts, and since our guardians have their own responsibilities, which focus on freedom, they will have enough to do without imitating. If they do imitate, they should only mimic things that are good, not anything that’s lowly or dishonorable, because the mask the actor wears can easily become his true face. We can't allow men to play the roles of women, arguing, crying, scolding, or bragging about the gods—especially when it comes to romance or childbirth. They shouldn’t portray slaves, bullies, cowards, drunkards, or madmen, nor blacksmiths, neighing horses, bellowing bulls, roaring rivers, or a raging sea. A good or wise person will be eager to perform good and wise actions, but they’ll feel embarrassed to take on a lower role that they’ve never practiced; and they will likely prefer to use a descriptive style with as little imitation as possible. On the other hand, a person without self-respect will imitate anyone and anything; the sounds of nature and animal cries included; their entire performance will just be an imitation of gestures and voices. In the descriptive style, there are few changes, but in the dramatic style, there are many. Poets and musicians can use either one or a mix of both, and this mix is very appealing to youth, their teachers, and the general public. But our State, where one person plays only one role, isn’t suited for complexity. And when one of these multi-talented, mimicking individuals comes to showcase themselves and their poetry, we will show them the utmost respect, but at the same time let them know that there’s no place for their style in our State; we prefer the straightforward, honest poet, and we will stick to our original models (Laws).

Next as to the music. A song or ode has three parts,—the subject, the harmony, and the rhythm; of which the two last are dependent upon the first. As we banished strains of lamentation, so we may now banish the mixed Lydian harmonies, which are the harmonies of lamentation; and as our citizens are to be temperate, we may also banish convivial harmonies, such as the Ionian and pure Lydian. Two remain—the Dorian and Phrygian, the first for war, the second for peace; the one expressive of courage, the other of obedience or instruction or religious feeling. And as we reject varieties of harmony, we shall also reject the many-stringed, variously-shaped instruments which give utterance to them, and in particular the flute, which is more complex than any of them. The lyre and the harp may be permitted in the town, and the Pan’s-pipe in the fields. Thus we have made a purgation of music, and will now make a purgation of metres. These should be like the harmonies, simple and suitable to the occasion. There are four notes of the tetrachord, and there are three ratios of metre, 3/2, 2/2, 2/1, which have all their characteristics, and the feet have different characteristics as well as the rhythms. But about this you and I must ask Damon, the great musician, who speaks, if I remember rightly, of a martial measure as well as of dactylic, trochaic, and iambic rhythms, which he arranges so as to equalize the syllables with one another, assigning to each the proper quantity. We only venture to affirm the general principle that the style is to conform to the subject and the metre to the style; and that the simplicity and harmony of the soul should be reflected in them all. This principle of simplicity has to be learnt by every one in the days of his youth, and may be gathered anywhere, from the creative and constructive arts, as well as from the forms of plants and animals.

Next, let's talk about the music. A song or poem has three parts—the subject, the harmony, and the rhythm—where the last two depend on the first. Just as we've gotten rid of sad tunes, we can also discard the mixed Lydian harmonies, which are associated with sorrow; and since our citizens should be moderate, we can eliminate celebratory harmonies like the Ionian and pure Lydian. That leaves us with two—the Dorian and Phrygian, with the first representing war and the second representing peace; one conveys bravery, the other obedience, instruction, or a sense of spirituality. As we reject different types of harmony, we should also eliminate the many-stringed, varied instruments that produce them, especially the flute, which is more complicated than the rest. The lyre and the harp can be allowed in the city, and the Pan flute can be used in the countryside. This way, we've cleansed our music, and now we’ll purify the meters. These should be, like the harmonies, simple and appropriate for the occasion. There are four notes in the tetrachord, and three meter ratios: 3/2, 2/2, and 2/1, each with their own characteristics, and the feet and rhythms also have distinct traits. But for further detail, we should ask Damon, the great musician, who talks, if I remember correctly, about a martial measure as well as dactylic, trochaic, and iambic rhythms, organizing them to balance the syllables, giving each the right length. We can only assert the general idea that the style should match the subject, and the meter should reflect the style; that simplicity and harmony of the soul should shine through in all of them. This principle of simplicity needs to be learned by everyone in their youth, and it can be found in various places, including the arts of creation and construction, as well as in the forms of plants and animals.

Other artists as well as poets should be warned against meanness or unseemliness. Sculpture and painting equally with music must conform to the law of simplicity. He who violates it cannot be allowed to work in our city, and to corrupt the taste of our citizens. For our guardians must grow up, not amid images of deformity which will gradually poison and corrupt their souls, but in a land of health and beauty where they will drink in from every object sweet and harmonious influences. And of all these influences the greatest is the education given by music, which finds a way into the innermost soul and imparts to it the sense of beauty and of deformity. At first the effect is unconscious; but when reason arrives, then he who has been thus trained welcomes her as the friend whom he always knew. As in learning to read, first we acquire the elements or letters separately, and afterwards their combinations, and cannot recognize reflections of them until we know the letters themselves;—in like manner we must first attain the elements or essential forms of the virtues, and then trace their combinations in life and experience. There is a music of the soul which answers to the harmony of the world; and the fairest object of a musical soul is the fair mind in the fair body. Some defect in the latter may be excused, but not in the former. True love is the daughter of temperance, and temperance is utterly opposed to the madness of bodily pleasure. Enough has been said of music, which makes a fair ending with love.

Other artists and poets should be warned against being cheap or inappropriate. Sculpture and painting, just like music, must follow the principle of simplicity. Anyone who breaks this rule can't be allowed to create in our city and shouldn't be allowed to taint the taste of our citizens. Our guardians should grow up in an environment not filled with ugly images that will slowly poison and corrupt their souls, but in a place of health and beauty, where they can absorb sweet and harmonious influences from everything around them. Among all these influences, the most powerful is the education provided by music, which reaches deep into the soul and gives a sense of beauty and ugliness. At first, the impact is unconscious; but when understanding comes, the person who has been trained welcomes it like an old friend. Just as when learning to read, we first learn the individual letters and then their combinations, and we can't recognize reflections of them until we know the letters themselves; similarly, we must first learn the basic elements or essential forms of virtues, and then see how they combine in life and experience. There is a music of the soul that resonates with the harmony of the world, and the most beautiful aspect of a musical soul is a beautiful mind in a beautiful body. Any flaws in the latter can be overlooked, but not in the former. True love is the offspring of temperance, and temperance is completely against the madness of bodily pleasure. That's enough about music, which perfectly concludes with love.

Next we pass on to gymnastics; about which I would remark, that the soul is related to the body as a cause to an effect, and therefore if we educate the mind we may leave the education of the body in her charge, and need only give a general outline of the course to be pursued. In the first place the guardians must abstain from strong drink, for they should be the last persons to lose their wits. Whether the habits of the palaestra are suitable to them is more doubtful, for the ordinary gymnastic is a sleepy sort of thing, and if left off suddenly is apt to endanger health. But our warrior athletes must be wide-awake dogs, and must also be inured to all changes of food and climate. Hence they will require a simpler kind of gymnastic, akin to their simple music; and for their diet a rule may be found in Homer, who feeds his heroes on roast meat only, and gives them no fish although they are living at the sea-side, nor boiled meats which involve an apparatus of pots and pans; and, if I am not mistaken, he nowhere mentions sweet sauces. Sicilian cookery and Attic confections and Corinthian courtezans, which are to gymnastic what Lydian and Ionian melodies are to music, must be forbidden. Where gluttony and intemperance prevail the town quickly fills with doctors and pleaders; and law and medicine give themselves airs as soon as the freemen of a State take an interest in them. But what can show a more disgraceful state of education than to have to go abroad for justice because you have none of your own at home? And yet there IS a worse stage of the same disease—when men have learned to take a pleasure and pride in the twists and turns of the law; not considering how much better it would be for them so to order their lives as to have no need of a nodding justice. And there is a like disgrace in employing a physician, not for the cure of wounds or epidemic disorders, but because a man has by laziness and luxury contracted diseases which were unknown in the days of Asclepius. How simple is the Homeric practice of medicine. Eurypylus after he has been wounded drinks a posset of Pramnian wine, which is of a heating nature; and yet the sons of Asclepius blame neither the damsel who gives him the drink, nor Patroclus who is attending on him. The truth is that this modern system of nursing diseases was introduced by Herodicus the trainer; who, being of a sickly constitution, by a compound of training and medicine tortured first himself and then a good many other people, and lived a great deal longer than he had any right. But Asclepius would not practise this art, because he knew that the citizens of a well-ordered State have no leisure to be ill, and therefore he adopted the ‘kill or cure’ method, which artisans and labourers employ. ‘They must be at their business,’ they say, ‘and have no time for coddling: if they recover, well; if they don’t, there is an end of them.’ Whereas the rich man is supposed to be a gentleman who can afford to be ill. Do you know a maxim of Phocylides—that ‘when a man begins to be rich’ (or, perhaps, a little sooner) ‘he should practise virtue’? But how can excessive care of health be inconsistent with an ordinary occupation, and yet consistent with that practice of virtue which Phocylides inculcates? When a student imagines that philosophy gives him a headache, he never does anything; he is always unwell. This was the reason why Asclepius and his sons practised no such art. They were acting in the interest of the public, and did not wish to preserve useless lives, or raise up a puny offspring to wretched sires. Honest diseases they honestly cured; and if a man was wounded, they applied the proper remedies, and then let him eat and drink what he liked. But they declined to treat intemperate and worthless subjects, even though they might have made large fortunes out of them. As to the story of Pindar, that Asclepius was slain by a thunderbolt for restoring a rich man to life, that is a lie—following our old rule we must say either that he did not take bribes, or that he was not the son of a god.

Next, we move on to gymnastics; and I want to point out that the soul is related to the body like a cause is to its effect. If we focus on educating the mind, we can trust the body’s education to the soul, only needing to provide a basic outline of the path to take. First and foremost, the guardians should stay away from alcohol, as they should be the last ones to lose their senses. It's questionable whether the practices of the gymnasium are suitable for them because regular gymnastics can be rather dull and can put your health at risk if you stop suddenly. However, our warrior athletes need to be alert and adaptable to changes in food and climate. Therefore, they will require a simpler style of exercise, similar to their straightforward music; and when it comes to their diet, we can draw from Homer, who feeds his heroes only roast meat and gives them no fish, even though they live by the sea, nor boiled meats that require lots of pots and pans; and if I’m not mistaken, he never mentions sweet sauces. Sicilian cuisine, Attic treats, and Corinthian delights, which are to gymnastics what Lydian and Ionian melodies are to music, must be banned. Where overindulgence and excess rule, towns are quickly filled with doctors and lawyers; and law and medicine take on a pretentious air as soon as the citizens of a State show interest in them. But what could be more disgraceful than having to seek justice abroad because you can't find any at home? And there's a worse aspect of this problem—when people come to take pleasure and pride in the legal tricks and loopholes, not realizing how much better it would be to live in such a way that they need no corrupt justice. Similarly, it’s disgraceful to hire a doctor not for wounds or contagious illnesses, but because someone has allowed themselves to become sick through laziness and luxury, contracting diseases that didn’t even exist in Asclepius's time. How simple was the medical practice in Homer’s time! Eurypylus, after being wounded, drinks a concoction of Pramnian wine, which is warming; yet, the sons of Asclepius do not blame the woman who gives him the drink or Patroclus, who is looking after him. The truth is, this modern way of treating diseases was brought about by Herodicus the trainer, who, being of a fragile health, tortured himself first with a mix of exercise and medicine, then many others, and lived much longer than he should have. But Asclepius wouldn't practice this approach because he knew that citizens in a well-organized State don't have time to be ill, which is why he adopted the ‘kill or cure’ method, as artisans and laborers do. ‘They must get back to work,’ they say, ‘and have no time for pampering: if they recover, great; if not, that’s the end for them.’ Meanwhile, it’s assumed that a wealthy person can afford to be sick. Have you heard Phocylides’s saying that ‘when a man starts becoming rich’ (or maybe just a bit earlier) ‘he should practice virtue’? But how can excessive concern for one’s health be incompatible with a normal job yet align with the virtue practice that Phocylides promotes? When a student thinks that philosophy gives him a headache, he never gets anything done; he’s always feeling unwell. This is why Asclepius and his sons didn’t engage in such practices. They were working for the benefit of the public and didn’t want to prolong useless lives or see weak offspring born to unfortunate parents. They treated real diseases sincerely; if a man was wounded, they provided the right treatments, then let him eat and drink whatever he wanted. But they refused to treat irresponsible and worthless individuals, even if they could have made a fortune from them. As for the story that Pindar tells, that Asclepius was struck down by a thunderbolt for bringing a wealthy man back to life, that’s false—sticking to our old principle, we must say either that he didn’t accept bribes or that he wasn’t a god’s son.

Glaucon then asks Socrates whether the best physicians and the best judges will not be those who have had severally the greatest experience of diseases and of crimes. Socrates draws a distinction between the two professions. The physician should have had experience of disease in his own body, for he cures with his mind and not with his body. But the judge controls mind by mind; and therefore his mind should not be corrupted by crime. Where then is he to gain experience? How is he to be wise and also innocent? When young a good man is apt to be deceived by evil-doers, because he has no pattern of evil in himself; and therefore the judge should be of a certain age; his youth should have been innocent, and he should have acquired insight into evil not by the practice of it, but by the observation of it in others. This is the ideal of a judge; the criminal turned detective is wonderfully suspicious, but when in company with good men who have experience, he is at fault, for he foolishly imagines that every one is as bad as himself. Vice may be known of virtue, but cannot know virtue. This is the sort of medicine and this the sort of law which will prevail in our State; they will be healing arts to better natures; but the evil body will be left to die by the one, and the evil soul will be put to death by the other. And the need of either will be greatly diminished by good music which will give harmony to the soul, and good gymnastic which will give health to the body. Not that this division of music and gymnastic really corresponds to soul and body; for they are both equally concerned with the soul, which is tamed by the one and aroused and sustained by the other. The two together supply our guardians with their twofold nature. The passionate disposition when it has too much gymnastic is hardened and brutalized, the gentle or philosophic temper which has too much music becomes enervated. While a man is allowing music to pour like water through the funnel of his ears, the edge of his soul gradually wears away, and the passionate or spirited element is melted out of him. Too little spirit is easily exhausted; too much quickly passes into nervous irritability. So, again, the athlete by feeding and training has his courage doubled, but he soon grows stupid; he is like a wild beast, ready to do everything by blows and nothing by counsel or policy. There are two principles in man, reason and passion, and to these, not to the soul and body, the two arts of music and gymnastic correspond. He who mingles them in harmonious concord is the true musician,—he shall be the presiding genius of our State.

Glaucon then asks Socrates if the best doctors and judges are those who have had the most experience with diseases and crimes. Socrates makes a distinction between the two roles. A doctor should have experienced illness in their own body since they heal with their mind, not just their body. However, a judge influences mind with mind; thus, their mind shouldn't be tainted by crime. So how can they gain experience? How can they be wise yet innocent? A good person, when young, might be misled by wrongdoers because they lack an inner understanding of evil; hence, judges should be of a certain age. Their youth should be innocent, and they should gain insight into wrongdoing not by participating in it, but by observing it in others. This is the ideal for a judge; a former criminal turned detective is often overly suspicious and mistakenly assumes that everyone is as flawed as they are. While vice can recognize virtue, it cannot truly understand it. This is the kind of medicine and law that will prevail in our society; they will be healing arts for improved individuals, but the corrupt body will be left to perish by one, and the corrupt soul will be condemned by the other. The necessity for either will be significantly reduced by good music, which brings harmony to the soul, and effective exercise, which promotes health in the body. Not that this separation of music and exercise directly corresponds to soul and body; both equally relate to the soul, which is subdued by music and stirred and sustained by physical activity. Together, they provide our guardians with their dual nature. If someone with a passionate temperament overexercises, they become hardened and brutal, while someone with a gentle or philosophical nature who overindulges in music becomes weak. When a person lets music flow like water into their ears, the sharpness of their soul gradually diminishes, and their passionate or spirited side fades away. Too little energy can lead to exhaustion, while too much creates nervous irritability. Similarly, an athlete, through too much diet and training, may find their courage amplified, but they soon become dull; they act like a wild beast, relying on brute force instead of strategy or planning. There are two forces in a person, reason and passion, and these, rather than soul and body, correspond to the arts of music and exercise. The one who harmonizes them is the true musician—this person will be the guiding spirit of our society.

The next question is, Who are to be our rulers? First, the elder must rule the younger; and the best of the elders will be the best guardians. Now they will be the best who love their subjects most, and think that they have a common interest with them in the welfare of the state. These we must select; but they must be watched at every epoch of life to see whether they have retained the same opinions and held out against force and enchantment. For time and persuasion and the love of pleasure may enchant a man into a change of purpose, and the force of grief and pain may compel him. And therefore our guardians must be men who have been tried by many tests, like gold in the refiner’s fire, and have been passed first through danger, then through pleasure, and at every age have come out of such trials victorious and without stain, in full command of themselves and their principles; having all their faculties in harmonious exercise for their country’s good. These shall receive the highest honours both in life and death. (It would perhaps be better to confine the term ‘guardians’ to this select class: the younger men may be called ‘auxiliaries.’)

The next question is, Who will be our leaders? First, the older must guide the younger; and the best of the older will be the best protectors. They will be the best if they care for their people the most and believe they share a common interest in the well-being of the state. We should choose these individuals, but they need to be monitored throughout their lives to ensure they maintain the same beliefs and can withstand pressure and temptation. Over time, persuasion and the allure of pleasure can lead someone to change their mind, and the weight of grief and pain can force a change. Therefore, our guardians must be individuals who have endured many tests, like gold in a refiner's fire, and have faced both danger and pleasure, emerging from those challenges unscathed and self-controlled, fully aligned with their principles; using all their abilities for the good of their country. These individuals will receive the highest honors both in life and after death. (It might be better to reserve the term 'guardians' for this chosen group: the younger individuals can be referred to as 'auxiliaries.')

And now for one magnificent lie, in the belief of which, Oh that we could train our rulers!—at any rate let us make the attempt with the rest of the world. What I am going to tell is only another version of the legend of Cadmus; but our unbelieving generation will be slow to accept such a story. The tale must be imparted, first to the rulers, then to the soldiers, lastly to the people. We will inform them that their youth was a dream, and that during the time when they seemed to be undergoing their education they were really being fashioned in the earth, who sent them up when they were ready; and that they must protect and cherish her whose children they are, and regard each other as brothers and sisters. ‘I do not wonder at your being ashamed to propound such a fiction.’ There is more behind. These brothers and sisters have different natures, and some of them God framed to rule, whom he fashioned of gold; others he made of silver, to be auxiliaries; others again to be husbandmen and craftsmen, and these were formed by him of brass and iron. But as they are all sprung from a common stock, a golden parent may have a silver son, or a silver parent a golden son, and then there must be a change of rank; the son of the rich must descend, and the child of the artisan rise, in the social scale; for an oracle says ‘that the State will come to an end if governed by a man of brass or iron.’ Will our citizens ever believe all this? ‘Not in the present generation, but in the next, perhaps, Yes.’

And now for one amazing lie, which we wish we could teach our leaders! — at least let’s try with the rest of the world. What I’m about to share is just another version of the legend of Cadmus; but our skeptical generation will be slow to accept such a tale. The story must be shared first with the rulers, then with the soldiers, and finally with the people. We will tell them that their youth was a dream, and that during what they thought was their education, they were actually being shaped by the earth, which brought them up when they were ready. They must protect and cherish the earth, their mother, and see each other as siblings. ‘I don’t blame you for feeling embarrassed to present such a fable.’ There’s more to it. These siblings come from different backgrounds, and some were created by God to lead, shaped from gold; others were made of silver to be helpers; others were designed to be farmers and craftsmen, and those were made from brass and iron. But since they all come from the same lineage, a golden parent can have a silver child, or a silver parent can have a golden child, leading to a shift in status; the child of the wealthy must fall, and the child of the worker must rise in social standing; because an oracle says ‘that the State will perish if ruled by a man of brass or iron.’ Will our citizens ever believe this? ‘Not in this generation, but maybe in the next, yes.’

Now let the earthborn men go forth under the command of their rulers, and look about and pitch their camp in a high place, which will be safe against enemies from without, and likewise against insurrections from within. There let them sacrifice and set up their tents; for soldiers they are to be and not shopkeepers, the watchdogs and guardians of the sheep; and luxury and avarice will turn them into wolves and tyrants. Their habits and their dwellings should correspond to their education. They should have no property; their pay should only meet their expenses; and they should have common meals. Gold and silver we will tell them that they have from God, and this divine gift in their souls they must not alloy with that earthly dross which passes under the name of gold. They only of the citizens may not touch it, or be under the same roof with it, or drink from it; it is the accursed thing. Should they ever acquire houses or lands or money of their own, they will become householders and tradesmen instead of guardians, enemies and tyrants instead of helpers, and the hour of ruin, both to themselves and the rest of the State, will be at hand.

Now let the people born of the earth go out under the direction of their leaders, and look around to set up their camp in a safe place, protected from outside enemies and from rebellions within. There, they should make sacrifices and pitch their tents; for they are to be soldiers, not shopkeepers, the protectors and guardians of the flock; and indulgence and greed will turn them into wolves and oppressors. Their lifestyles and living conditions should reflect their training. They should own no property; their pay should only be enough to cover their expenses, and they should share their meals. We will tell them that the gold and silver they have are gifts from God, and this divine blessing within their souls must not be mixed with the earthly grime that is called gold. Only they among the citizens are prohibited from touching it, living under the same roof with it, or drinking from it; it is a cursed thing. If they ever gain their own homes, land, or money, they will become householders and merchants instead of guardians, enemies and oppressors instead of supporters, and the time of downfall, both for themselves and for the State, will be close at hand.

The religious and ethical aspect of Plato’s education will hereafter be considered under a separate head. Some lesser points may be more conveniently noticed in this place.

The religious and ethical aspect of Plato's education will be discussed separately later. Some minor points can be addressed more conveniently here.

1. The constant appeal to the authority of Homer, whom, with grave irony, Plato, after the manner of his age, summons as a witness about ethics and psychology, as well as about diet and medicine; attempting to distinguish the better lesson from the worse, sometimes altering the text from design; more than once quoting or alluding to Homer inaccurately, after the manner of the early logographers turning the Iliad into prose, and delighting to draw far-fetched inferences from his words, or to make ludicrous applications of them. He does not, like Heracleitus, get into a rage with Homer and Archilochus (Heracl.), but uses their words and expressions as vehicles of a higher truth; not on a system like Theagenes of Rhegium or Metrodorus, or in later times the Stoics, but as fancy may dictate. And the conclusions drawn from them are sound, although the premises are fictitious. These fanciful appeals to Homer add a charm to Plato’s style, and at the same time they have the effect of a satire on the follies of Homeric interpretation. To us (and probably to himself), although they take the form of arguments, they are really figures of speech. They may be compared with modern citations from Scripture, which have often a great rhetorical power even when the original meaning of the words is entirely lost sight of. The real, like the Platonic Socrates, as we gather from the Memorabilia of Xenophon, was fond of making similar adaptations. Great in all ages and countries, in religion as well as in law and literature, has been the art of interpretation.

1. The constant reference to the authority of Homer, whom Plato ironically calls as a witness on ethics, psychology, diet, and medicine—trying to separate the better lessons from the worse, sometimes deliberately changing the text; he often quotes or alludes to Homer inaccurately, in a way similar to the early logographers turning the Iliad into prose, and enjoys drawing far-fetched conclusions from his words or making ridiculous applications of them. Unlike Heracleitus, who got angry with Homer and Archilochus, he uses their words and expressions as vehicles for a higher truth; not in a systematic way like Theagenes of Rhegium or Metrodorus, or later the Stoics, but as his imagination dictates. The conclusions he draws from them are valid, even if the starting points are fictional. These imaginative references to Homer add charm to Plato’s style while also acting as a satire on the absurdities of Homeric interpretation. To us (and probably to him), even though they take the form of arguments, they are really just figures of speech. They can be compared to modern citations from Scripture, which often hold great rhetorical power even when their original meaning is completely overlooked. The real Socrates, as we learn from Xenophon’s Memorabilia, liked to make similar adaptations. The art of interpretation has been significant in all ages and countries, in religion as well as in law and literature.

2. ‘The style is to conform to the subject and the metre to the style.’ Notwithstanding the fascination which the word ‘classical’ exercises over us, we can hardly maintain that this rule is observed in all the Greek poetry which has come down to us. We cannot deny that the thought often exceeds the power of lucid expression in Aeschylus and Pindar; or that rhetoric gets the better of the thought in the Sophist-poet Euripides. Only perhaps in Sophocles is there a perfect harmony of the two; in him alone do we find a grace of language like the beauty of a Greek statue, in which there is nothing to add or to take away; at least this is true of single plays or of large portions of them. The connection in the Tragic Choruses and in the Greek lyric poets is not unfrequently a tangled thread which in an age before logic the poet was unable to draw out. Many thoughts and feelings mingled in his mind, and he had no power of disengaging or arranging them. For there is a subtle influence of logic which requires to be transferred from prose to poetry, just as the music and perfection of language are infused by poetry into prose. In all ages the poet has been a bad judge of his own meaning (Apol.); for he does not see that the word which is full of associations to his own mind is difficult and unmeaning to that of another; or that the sequence which is clear to himself is puzzling to others. There are many passages in some of our greatest modern poets which are far too obscure; in which there is no proportion between style and subject, in which any half-expressed figure, any harsh construction, any distorted collocation of words, any remote sequence of ideas is admitted; and there is no voice ‘coming sweetly from nature,’ or music adding the expression of feeling to thought. As if there could be poetry without beauty, or beauty without ease and clearness. The obscurities of early Greek poets arose necessarily out of the state of language and logic which existed in their age. They are not examples to be followed by us; for the use of language ought in every generation to become clearer and clearer. Like Shakespere, they were great in spite, not in consequence, of their imperfections of expression. But there is no reason for returning to the necessary obscurity which prevailed in the infancy of literature. The English poets of the last century were certainly not obscure; and we have no excuse for losing what they had gained, or for going back to the earlier or transitional age which preceded them. The thought of our own times has not out-stripped language; a want of Plato’s ‘art of measuring’ is the rule cause of the disproportion between them.

2. "The style should match the subject, and the meter should suit the style." Despite our fascination with the term "classical," we can't really say that this rule applies to all the Greek poetry we have today. It's undeniable that sometimes the thoughts in Aeschylus and Pindar exceed their ability to express them clearly, or that rhetoric overshadows the ideas in Euripides, the Sophist-poet. Only in Sophocles do we see a perfect balance between the two; in him alone is there a beauty in language akin to that of a Greek statue, where nothing can be added or removed; at least this holds true for individual plays or substantial parts of them. The connections in the Tragic Choruses and among the Greek lyric poets often lack clarity, which the poet struggled to untangle in a time before logic was established. He had many thoughts and feelings mixed up in his mind and couldn't separate or organize them. There's a subtle influence of logic that needs to transition from prose to poetry, just as poetry infuses music and the perfection of language into prose. Throughout history, poets have been poor judges of their own meaning (Apol.); they often don't recognize that a word filled with personal associations may be confusing or meaningless to others, or that a sequence that makes sense to them might puzzle an audience. Several passages in some of our greatest modern poets are far too obscure; there’s often no balance between style and subject, with half-expressed ideas, awkward constructions, jumbled words, and convoluted thoughts allowed. There’s no natural voice “coming sweetly from nature,” or music that enhances the feelings behind the thoughts. As if poetry could exist without beauty, or beauty without ease and clarity. The obscurities of early Greek poets arose from the state of language and logic at the time. They shouldn't be our models; language should become clearer with each generation. Like Shakespeare, they thrived despite their expression flaws, not because of them. We have no reason to revert to the necessary obscurity that was common in the early days of literature. The English poets of the last century were certainly clear; we have no justification for dismissing their achievements or regressing to the earlier transitional era. The thoughts of our time haven’t surpassed our language; the lack of Plato’s “art of measuring” is the primary reason for the mismatch between them.

3. In the third book of the Republic a nearer approach is made to a theory of art than anywhere else in Plato. His views may be summed up as follows:—True art is not fanciful and imitative, but simple and ideal,—the expression of the highest moral energy, whether in action or repose. To live among works of plastic art which are of this noble and simple character, or to listen to such strains, is the best of influences,—the true Greek atmosphere, in which youth should be brought up. That is the way to create in them a natural good taste, which will have a feeling of truth and beauty in all things. For though the poets are to be expelled, still art is recognized as another aspect of reason—like love in the Symposium, extending over the same sphere, but confined to the preliminary education, and acting through the power of habit; and this conception of art is not limited to strains of music or the forms of plastic art, but pervades all nature and has a wide kindred in the world. The Republic of Plato, like the Athens of Pericles, has an artistic as well as a political side.

3. In the third book of the Republic, Plato gets closer to a theory of art than anywhere else in his work. His views can be summarized as follows: True art isn’t just fanciful and imitative; it’s simple and ideal—an expression of the highest moral energy, whether in action or stillness. Living amidst works of art that are noble and simple, or listening to such music, provides the best influence—the true Greek environment in which youth should be raised. This is how to foster a natural good taste in them, one that feels a sense of truth and beauty in everything. Even though poets should be expelled, art is still seen as another facet of reason—similar to love in the Symposium—encompassing the same realm but focused on early education and working through the power of habit. This idea of art extends beyond just music or visual art; it saturates all of nature and shares a wide connection with the world. Plato's Republic, much like Pericles' Athens, has both an artistic and a political dimension.

There is hardly any mention in Plato of the creative arts; only in two or three passages does he even allude to them (Rep.; Soph.). He is not lost in rapture at the great works of Phidias, the Parthenon, the Propylea, the statues of Zeus or Athene. He would probably have regarded any abstract truth of number or figure as higher than the greatest of them. Yet it is hard to suppose that some influence, such as he hopes to inspire in youth, did not pass into his own mind from the works of art which he saw around him. We are living upon the fragments of them, and find in a few broken stones the standard of truth and beauty. But in Plato this feeling has no expression; he nowhere says that beauty is the object of art; he seems to deny that wisdom can take an external form (Phaedrus); he does not distinguish the fine from the mechanical arts. Whether or no, like some writers, he felt more than he expressed, it is at any rate remarkable that the greatest perfection of the fine arts should coincide with an almost entire silence about them. In one very striking passage he tells us that a work of art, like the State, is a whole; and this conception of a whole and the love of the newly-born mathematical sciences may be regarded, if not as the inspiring, at any rate as the regulating principles of Greek art (Xen. Mem.; and Sophist).

Plato hardly mentions the creative arts; he only brings them up in two or three places (Rep.; Soph.). He's not overly impressed by the impressive works of Phidias, the Parthenon, the Propylea, or the statues of Zeus and Athena. He would likely consider any abstract truth of numbers or shapes to be more significant than any of those masterpieces. However, it's hard to believe that he wasn't influenced by the art around him, which he hoped would inspire the youth. We live off the remnants of those influences, finding truth and beauty in just a few broken stones. Yet, in Plato’s writing, this sentiment is absent; he doesn’t say that beauty is the aim of art, and he seems to reject the idea that wisdom can take a physical form (Phaedrus). He doesn't differentiate between fine arts and mechanical arts. Whether he, like some writers, felt more than he revealed, it's notable that the peak of fine arts coincides with his near silence about them. In one striking passage, he states that a work of art, much like the State, is a whole; this idea of wholeness and the emerging mathematical sciences can be viewed, if not as inspiration, at least as guiding principles of Greek art (Xen. Mem.; and Sophist).

4. Plato makes the true and subtle remark that the physician had better not be in robust health; and should have known what illness is in his own person. But the judge ought to have had no similar experience of evil; he is to be a good man who, having passed his youth in innocence, became acquainted late in life with the vices of others. And therefore, according to Plato, a judge should not be young, just as a young man according to Aristotle is not fit to be a hearer of moral philosophy. The bad, on the other hand, have a knowledge of vice, but no knowledge of virtue. It may be doubted, however, whether this train of reflection is well founded. In a remarkable passage of the Laws it is acknowledged that the evil may form a correct estimate of the good. The union of gentleness and courage in Book ii. at first seemed to be a paradox, yet was afterwards ascertained to be a truth. And Plato might also have found that the intuition of evil may be consistent with the abhorrence of it. There is a directness of aim in virtue which gives an insight into vice. And the knowledge of character is in some degree a natural sense independent of any special experience of good or evil.

4. Plato makes a keen observation that a doctor shouldn't be in perfect health; they should have experienced illness themselves. However, a judge shouldn't have had similar negative experiences; they should be a good person who, after growing up innocent, learns about the faults of others later in life. Thus, according to Plato, a judge shouldn't be young, just as Aristotle states that a young man isn't ready to study moral philosophy. In contrast, those who are bad understand vice but lack any real knowledge of virtue. Nonetheless, it can be questioned whether this line of thought is accurate. In a notable passage from the Laws, it's acknowledged that bad people can correctly recognize what is good. The combination of gentleness and courage in Book II initially seemed paradoxical, but later was confirmed as true. Plato might also have found that the understanding of evil can coexist with a strong dislike for it. There’s a clarity of purpose in virtue that allows for insight into vice. Additionally, the ability to understand character is somewhat instinctive, not necessarily tied to specific experiences of good or evil.

5. One of the most remarkable conceptions of Plato, because un-Greek and also very different from anything which existed at all in his age of the world, is the transposition of ranks. In the Spartan state there had been enfranchisement of Helots and degradation of citizens under special circumstances. And in the ancient Greek aristocracies, merit was certainly recognized as one of the elements on which government was based. The founders of states were supposed to be their benefactors, who were raised by their great actions above the ordinary level of humanity; at a later period, the services of warriors and legislators were held to entitle them and their descendants to the privileges of citizenship and to the first rank in the state. And although the existence of an ideal aristocracy is slenderly proven from the remains of early Greek history, and we have a difficulty in ascribing such a character, however the idea may be defined, to any actual Hellenic state—or indeed to any state which has ever existed in the world—still the rule of the best was certainly the aspiration of philosophers, who probably accommodated a good deal their views of primitive history to their own notions of good government. Plato further insists on applying to the guardians of his state a series of tests by which all those who fell short of a fixed standard were either removed from the governing body, or not admitted to it; and this ‘academic’ discipline did to a certain extent prevail in Greek states, especially in Sparta. He also indicates that the system of caste, which existed in a great part of the ancient, and is by no means extinct in the modern European world, should be set aside from time to time in favour of merit. He is aware how deeply the greater part of mankind resent any interference with the order of society, and therefore he proposes his novel idea in the form of what he himself calls a ‘monstrous fiction.’ (Compare the ceremony of preparation for the two ‘great waves’ in Book v.) Two principles are indicated by him: first, that there is a distinction of ranks dependent on circumstances prior to the individual: second, that this distinction is and ought to be broken through by personal qualities. He adapts mythology like the Homeric poems to the wants of the state, making ‘the Phoenician tale’ the vehicle of his ideas. Every Greek state had a myth respecting its own origin; the Platonic republic may also have a tale of earthborn men. The gravity and verisimilitude with which the tale is told, and the analogy of Greek tradition, are a sufficient verification of the ‘monstrous falsehood.’ Ancient poetry had spoken of a gold and silver and brass and iron age succeeding one another, but Plato supposes these differences in the natures of men to exist together in a single state. Mythology supplies a figure under which the lesson may be taught (as Protagoras says, ‘the myth is more interesting’), and also enables Plato to touch lightly on new principles without going into details. In this passage he shadows forth a general truth, but he does not tell us by what steps the transposition of ranks is to be effected. Indeed throughout the Republic he allows the lower ranks to fade into the distance. We do not know whether they are to carry arms, and whether in the fifth book they are or are not included in the communistic regulations respecting property and marriage. Nor is there any use in arguing strictly either from a few chance words, or from the silence of Plato, or in drawing inferences which were beyond his vision. Aristotle, in his criticism on the position of the lower classes, does not perceive that the poetical creation is ‘like the air, invulnerable,’ and cannot be penetrated by the shafts of his logic (Pol.).

5. One of Plato's most striking ideas, because it was un-Greek and very different from anything else that existed in his time, is the idea of changing social ranks. In the Spartan society, Helots could be freed and citizens could be degraded under certain conditions. In ancient Greek aristocracies, merit was recognized as a key basis for government. The founders of states were seen as benefactors, elevated by their great deeds above the normal level of humanity; later on, the contributions of warriors and lawmakers were believed to justify their right—and that of their descendants—to citizenship privileges and top status in the state. Although the existence of an ideal aristocracy is weakly supported by early Greek historical evidence, and it’s hard to attribute such a nature, however defined, to any actual Greek state—or any state that has ever existed—still, the aspiration for the rule of the best was certainly shared by philosophers, who likely shaped their views of primitive history to fit their own ideas of good governance. Plato also emphasizes applying a series of tests to the guardians of his state, removing anyone who doesn’t meet a set standard from the governing body or preventing them from joining it; this kind of ‘academic’ discipline did, to some extent, exist in Greek states, especially in Sparta. He also suggests that the caste system, which was prevalent in much of the ancient world and continues in some form in modern Europe, should occasionally be replaced by merit. He understands how deeply most people resent changes to the social order, and so he introduces his innovative idea as what he calls a ‘monstrous fiction.’ (Compare the preparation ceremony for the two ‘great waves’ in Book v.) He presents two principles: first, that there are ranks based on circumstances outside the individual; second, that these ranks should and can be challenged by personal qualities. He adapts mythology, like the Homeric poems, to meet the needs of the state, using ‘the Phoenician tale’ to express his ideas. Every Greek state had its own myth about its origins; the Platonic republic might also have a story about earthborn men. The seriousness and believability of the story, along with Greek tradition, serve as a sufficient validation of the ‘monstrous falsehood.’ Ancient poetry spoke of ages of gold, silver, bronze, and iron succeeding one another, but Plato believes that these different natures of humanity can exist simultaneously within a single state. Mythology provides a way to convey the lesson (as Protagoras says, ‘the myth is more interesting’), allowing Plato to touch on new principles lightly without going into minutiae. In this section, he hints at a general truth but doesn’t specify the steps for changing social ranks. Indeed, throughout the Republic, he lets the lower ranks fade into the background. We don’t know whether they will carry weapons or if they are included in the communal rules about property and marriage in the fifth book. There's also no point in strictly arguing from a few random phrases, or Plato’s silence, or drawing conclusions that were beyond his perspective. Aristotle, in his critique of the status of lower classes, fails to realize that this poetic creation is ‘like the air, invulnerable,’ and cannot be pierced by his logical arguments (Pol.).

6. Two paradoxes which strike the modern reader as in the highest degree fanciful and ideal, and which suggest to him many reflections, are to be found in the third book of the Republic: first, the great power of music, so much beyond any influence which is experienced by us in modern times, when the art or science has been far more developed, and has found the secret of harmony, as well as of melody; secondly, the indefinite and almost absolute control which the soul is supposed to exercise over the body.

6. Two paradoxes that seem incredibly fanciful and ideal to today’s reader, prompting many reflections, can be found in the third book of the Republic: first, the immense power of music, which surpasses any influence we experience in modern times, where the art and science have advanced significantly and discovered the secrets of harmony as well as melody; secondly, the indefinite and almost total control that the soul is believed to have over the body.

In the first we suspect some degree of exaggeration, such as we may also observe among certain masters of the art, not unknown to us, at the present day. With this natural enthusiasm, which is felt by a few only, there seems to mingle in Plato a sort of Pythagorean reverence for numbers and numerical proportion to which Aristotle is a stranger. Intervals of sound and number are to him sacred things which have a law of their own, not dependent on the variations of sense. They rise above sense, and become a connecting link with the world of ideas. But it is evident that Plato is describing what to him appears to be also a fact. The power of a simple and characteristic melody on the impressible mind of the Greek is more than we can easily appreciate. The effect of national airs may bear some comparison with it. And, besides all this, there is a confusion between the harmony of musical notes and the harmony of soul and body, which is so potently inspired by them.

In the beginning, we suspect some level of exaggeration, similar to what we can see among certain masters of the art, who are still known to us today. Along with this natural enthusiasm, which only a few truly feel, Plato seems to mix in a kind of Pythagorean respect for numbers and numerical proportions, which Aristotle doesn't share. For Plato, sound intervals and numbers are sacred things that follow their own laws, independent of sensory variations. They transcend the senses and serve as a bridge to the world of ideas. It's clear that Plato is describing what he views as a reality. The impact of a simple and distinctive melody on the sensitive mind of the Greek is something we can't easily grasp. National songs may have a similar effect. Additionally, there's a confusion between the harmony of musical notes and the harmony of the soul and body, which is strongly influenced by them.

The second paradox leads up to some curious and interesting questions—How far can the mind control the body? Is the relation between them one of mutual antagonism or of mutual harmony? Are they two or one, and is either of them the cause of the other? May we not at times drop the opposition between them, and the mode of describing them, which is so familiar to us, and yet hardly conveys any precise meaning, and try to view this composite creature, man, in a more simple manner? Must we not at any rate admit that there is in human nature a higher and a lower principle, divided by no distinct line, which at times break asunder and take up arms against one another? Or again, they are reconciled and move together, either unconsciously in the ordinary work of life, or consciously in the pursuit of some noble aim, to be attained not without an effort, and for which every thought and nerve are strained. And then the body becomes the good friend or ally, or servant or instrument of the mind. And the mind has often a wonderful and almost superhuman power of banishing disease and weakness and calling out a hidden strength. Reason and the desires, the intellect and the senses are brought into harmony and obedience so as to form a single human being. They are ever parting, ever meeting; and the identity or diversity of their tendencies or operations is for the most part unnoticed by us. When the mind touches the body through the appetites, we acknowledge the responsibility of the one to the other. There is a tendency in us which says ‘Drink.’ There is another which says, ‘Do not drink; it is not good for you.’ And we all of us know which is the rightful superior. We are also responsible for our health, although into this sphere there enter some elements of necessity which may be beyond our control. Still even in the management of health, care and thought, continued over many years, may make us almost free agents, if we do not exact too much of ourselves, and if we acknowledge that all human freedom is limited by the laws of nature and of mind.

The second paradox raises some curious and interesting questions—How far can the mind control the body? Is the relationship between them one of conflict or harmony? Are they distinct entities or one single entity, and is one the cause of the other? Can we sometimes set aside the usual opposition between them and the way we describe them, which is so familiar yet often doesn’t convey clear meaning, and try to view this complex being, humans, in a simpler way? We must at least acknowledge that human nature has a higher and a lower principle, divided by no clear line, which can sometimes break apart and go to war with each other. Or, on the flip side, they might reconcile and move together, either unconsciously in everyday life or consciously in pursuit of some noble goal that requires effort, pushing every thought and nerve to the limit. In those moments, the body becomes a good friend, ally, servant, or tool for the mind. The mind often has an amazing and almost superhuman ability to banish illness and weakness while calling upon hidden strength. Reason and desires, intellect and senses come into harmony and obedience to form one unified human being. They are always parting and reuniting; we mostly don’t notice their similarities or differences in tendencies or actions. When the mind influences the body through cravings, we recognize the responsibility each has to the other. There’s a part of us that says, ‘Drink.’ Another part says, ‘Don’t drink; it’s not good for you.’ And we all know which part should take precedence. We are also responsible for our health, although some aspects of it may fall outside our control. Still, with care and consideration maintained over many years, we can become almost free agents when managing our health if we don’t push ourselves too hard and if we recognize that all human freedom is bounded by the laws of nature and the mind.

We are disappointed to find that Plato, in the general condemnation which he passes on the practice of medicine prevailing in his own day, depreciates the effects of diet. He would like to have diseases of a definite character and capable of receiving a definite treatment. He is afraid of invalidism interfering with the business of life. He does not recognize that time is the great healer both of mental and bodily disorders; and that remedies which are gradual and proceed little by little are safer than those which produce a sudden catastrophe. Neither does he see that there is no way in which the mind can more surely influence the body than by the control of eating and drinking; or any other action or occasion of human life on which the higher freedom of the will can be more simple or truly asserted.

We are disappointed to see that Plato, in his overall criticism of the medical practices of his time, downplays the importance of diet. He wants diseases to have clear characteristics that can be treated definitively. He worries that long-term illness will disrupt daily life. He fails to recognize that time is the greatest healer of both mental and physical issues, and that gradual remedies that take their course are safer than those that cause sudden crises. He also doesn't understand that the mind can influence the body most effectively through control over eating and drinking, or any other aspect of life where the higher freedom of will can be expressed simply and genuinely.

7. Lesser matters of style may be remarked.

7. Smaller style issues can be noted.

(1) The affected ignorance of music, which is Plato’s way of expressing that he is passing lightly over the subject.

(1) The limited understanding of music, which is Plato’s way of saying that he is not going into deep detail about the topic.

(2) The tentative manner in which here, as in the second book, he proceeds with the construction of the State.

(2) The cautious way in which he moves forward with building the State here, just like in the second book.

(3) The description of the State sometimes as a reality, and then again as a work of imagination only; these are the arts by which he sustains the reader’s interest.

(3) The description of the State is sometimes presented as a reality, and at other times as merely a product of imagination; these are the techniques he uses to keep the reader engaged.

(4) Connecting links, or the preparation for the entire expulsion of the poets in Book X.

(4) Connecting links, or the setup for the complete removal of the poets in Book X.

(5) The companion pictures of the lover of litigation and the valetudinarian, the satirical jest about the maxim of Phocylides, the manner in which the image of the gold and silver citizens is taken up into the subject, and the argument from the practice of Asclepius, should not escape notice.

(5) The accompanying images of the lawsuit lover and the invalid, the sarcastic joke about Phocylides' saying, the way the concept of wealthy citizens is incorporated into the topic, and the reference to Asclepius' practices should not be overlooked.

BOOK IV. Adeimantus said: ‘Suppose a person to argue, Socrates, that you make your citizens miserable, and this by their own free-will; they are the lords of the city, and yet instead of having, like other men, lands and houses and money of their own, they live as mercenaries and are always mounting guard.’ You may add, I replied, that they receive no pay but only their food, and have no money to spend on a journey or a mistress. ‘Well, and what answer do you give?’ My answer is, that our guardians may or may not be the happiest of men,—I should not be surprised to find in the long-run that they were,—but this is not the aim of our constitution, which was designed for the good of the whole and not of any one part. If I went to a sculptor and blamed him for having painted the eye, which is the noblest feature of the face, not purple but black, he would reply: ‘The eye must be an eye, and you should look at the statue as a whole.’ ‘Now I can well imagine a fool’s paradise, in which everybody is eating and drinking, clothed in purple and fine linen, and potters lie on sofas and have their wheel at hand, that they may work a little when they please; and cobblers and all the other classes of a State lose their distinctive character. And a State may get on without cobblers; but when the guardians degenerate into boon companions, then the ruin is complete. Remember that we are not talking of peasants keeping holiday, but of a State in which every man is expected to do his own work. The happiness resides not in this or that class, but in the State as a whole. I have another remark to make:—A middle condition is best for artisans; they should have money enough to buy tools, and not enough to be independent of business. And will not the same condition be best for our citizens? If they are poor, they will be mean; if rich, luxurious and lazy; and in neither case contented. ‘But then how will our poor city be able to go to war against an enemy who has money?’ There may be a difficulty in fighting against one enemy; against two there will be none. In the first place, the contest will be carried on by trained warriors against well-to-do citizens: and is not a regular athlete an easy match for two stout opponents at least? Suppose also, that before engaging we send ambassadors to one of the two cities, saying, ‘Silver and gold we have not; do you help us and take our share of the spoil;’—who would fight against the lean, wiry dogs, when they might join with them in preying upon the fatted sheep? ‘But if many states join their resources, shall we not be in danger?’ I am amused to hear you use the word ‘state’ of any but our own State. They are ‘states,’ but not ‘a state’—many in one. For in every state there are two hostile nations, rich and poor, which you may set one against the other. But our State, while she remains true to her principles, will be in very deed the mightiest of Hellenic states.

BOOK IV. Adeimantus said: “Imagine someone arguing, Socrates, that you make your citizens unhappy, and that it’s their own choice; they are the rulers of the city, yet instead of having their own lands, houses, and money like other people, they live like soldiers and are always on duty.” You can also point out, I replied, that they only get food as payment and have no money to spend on travel or a lover. “So, what’s your response?” My response is that whether our guardians are the happiest people or not—I wouldn’t be surprised if they turn out to be happy in the long run—but that’s not the goal of our system, which was created for the benefit of the whole society, not just one part. If I went to a sculptor and criticized him for painting the eye, which is the most important feature of the face, in black instead of purple, he would say: “The eye needs to look like an eye, and you should consider the statue as a whole.” “Now, I can easily imagine a foolish paradise where everyone is eating and drinking, dressed in purple and fine linen, with potters lounging on sofas and having their wheels nearby to work whenever they want; and cobblers and all the other professions in a State lose their unique roles. A State could function without cobblers; but when the guardians become mere party-goers, then everything falls apart. Remember, we’re not talking about peasants taking a day off, but about a State where everyone is expected to do their own job. Happiness doesn’t belong to one group, but to the State as a whole. I have another point to make: a moderate situation is best for workers; they should have enough money to buy tools but not enough to avoid doing their jobs. Wouldn’t the same situation be ideal for our citizens? If they are poor, they will be petty; if rich, they’ll get indulgent and lazy; and in neither case will they be satisfied. “But how will our poor city fight against an enemy with money?” There may be a challenge in facing one enemy; against two, there are none. First, the battle will be between trained warriors and wealthy citizens: isn’t a trained athlete an easy match for at least two strong opponents? Let’s also imagine that before the fight, we send messengers to one of the two cities saying, “We don’t have silver or gold; will you help us and share in the spoils?”—who would want to fight against lean, agile fighters when they could team up and prey on the fat sheep? “But if many states combine their resources, won’t we be in trouble?” I find it funny that you refer to any but our own State as a “state.” They may be “states,” but not “a state”—they’re many in one. Because in every state, there are two rival nations, the rich and the poor, which can be pitted against each other. But our State, as long as it stays true to its principles, will truly be the most powerful of the Hellenic states.

To the size of the state there is no limit but the necessity of unity; it must be neither too large nor too small to be one. This is a matter of secondary importance, like the principle of transposition which was intimated in the parable of the earthborn men. The meaning there implied was that every man should do that for which he was fitted, and be at one with himself, and then the whole city would be united. But all these things are secondary, if education, which is the great matter, be duly regarded. When the wheel has once been set in motion, the speed is always increasing; and each generation improves upon the preceding, both in physical and moral qualities. The care of the governors should be directed to preserve music and gymnastic from innovation; alter the songs of a country, Damon says, and you will soon end by altering its laws. The change appears innocent at first, and begins in play; but the evil soon becomes serious, working secretly upon the characters of individuals, then upon social and commercial relations, and lastly upon the institutions of a state; and there is ruin and confusion everywhere. But if education remains in the established form, there will be no danger. A restorative process will be always going on; the spirit of law and order will raise up what has fallen down. Nor will any regulations be needed for the lesser matters of life—rules of deportment or fashions of dress. Like invites like for good or for evil. Education will correct deficiencies and supply the power of self-government. Far be it from us to enter into the particulars of legislation; let the guardians take care of education, and education will take care of all other things.

The size of the state has no limits except for the need for unity; it shouldn't be too big or too small to remain unified. This is a secondary issue, similar to the principle of transposition hinted at in the story of the earthborn men. What that story suggests is that everyone should do what they're suited for and be at peace with themselves, leading to a unified society. However, all these points are minor compared to the importance of education, which is the key issue. Once the wheel of education starts turning, it keeps gaining momentum; each generation builds upon the last, improving both physically and morally. The rulers should focus on preserving music and athletics from change; if you change a nation’s songs, as Damon says, you’ll soon alter its laws. At first, the change seems harmless and starts off as fun, but it quickly turns serious, subtly affecting individual character, then social and economic relations, and ultimately the state’s institutions, leading to chaos. But if education remains consistent, there will be no threat. A restorative process will always be at work; the spirit of law and order will revive what has fallen apart. There won’t be any need for regulations on minor aspects of life—like manners or fashion. Like attracts like, for better or worse. Education will address shortcomings and foster self-governance. We should avoid delving into the specifics of laws; let the guardians focus on education, and education will take care of everything else.

But without education they may patch and mend as they please; they will make no progress, any more than a patient who thinks to cure himself by some favourite remedy and will not give up his luxurious mode of living. If you tell such persons that they must first alter their habits, then they grow angry; they are charming people. ‘Charming,—nay, the very reverse.’ Evidently these gentlemen are not in your good graces, nor the state which is like them. And such states there are which first ordain under penalty of death that no one shall alter the constitution, and then suffer themselves to be flattered into and out of anything; and he who indulges them and fawns upon them, is their leader and saviour. ‘Yes, the men are as bad as the states.’ But do you not admire their cleverness? ‘Nay, some of them are stupid enough to believe what the people tell them.’ And when all the world is telling a man that he is six feet high, and he has no measure, how can he believe anything else? But don’t get into a passion: to see our statesmen trying their nostrums, and fancying that they can cut off at a blow the Hydra-like rogueries of mankind, is as good as a play. Minute enactments are superfluous in good states, and are useless in bad ones.

But without education, they can patch things up as they like; they won't make any real progress, just like a patient who believes he can cure himself with a favorite remedy while clinging to a life of luxury. If you tell these people they need to change their habits first, they get angry; they are charming individuals. 'Charming—no, quite the opposite.' Clearly, these gentlemen aren’t in your favor, nor are the states that resemble them. There are indeed states that first impose a death penalty for anyone who tries to change the constitution, and then allow themselves to be flattered in and out of anything. The one who indulges and flatters them is their leader and savior. 'Yes, the men are as bad as the states.' But don’t you admire their cleverness? 'No, some are foolish enough to believe what the people tell them.' And when everyone is telling a man he’s six feet tall, and he has no way to measure it, how can he believe anything else? But don’t get worked up; watching our statesmen try their remedies and think they can easily solve the many deceptions of humanity is more entertaining than a play. Detailed laws are unnecessary in good states and ineffective in bad ones.

And now what remains of the work of legislation? Nothing for us; but to Apollo the god of Delphi we leave the ordering of the greatest of all things—that is to say, religion. Only our ancestral deity sitting upon the centre and navel of the earth will be trusted by us if we have any sense, in an affair of such magnitude. No foreign god shall be supreme in our realms...

And now what's left for us in the work of making laws? Nothing for us; but we leave the most important thing—religion—to Apollo, the god of Delphi. Only our ancestral god, sitting at the center of the earth, will be trusted by us, if we have any sense, in such a significant matter. No foreign god will take supremacy in our lands...

Here, as Socrates would say, let us ‘reflect on’ (Greek) what has preceded: thus far we have spoken not of the happiness of the citizens, but only of the well-being of the State. They may be the happiest of men, but our principal aim in founding the State was not to make them happy. They were to be guardians, not holiday-makers. In this pleasant manner is presented to us the famous question both of ancient and modern philosophy, touching the relation of duty to happiness, of right to utility.

Here, as Socrates would say, let’s ‘reflect on’ (Greek) what we’ve discussed so far: up to this point, we haven't talked about the happiness of the citizens, but only the well-being of the State. They might be the happiest people, but our main goal in creating the State wasn’t to make them happy. They were meant to be guardians, not vacationers. In this way, we encounter the well-known question that both ancient and modern philosophy grapple with, regarding the relationship between duty and happiness, and the connection between what is right and what is useful.

First duty, then happiness, is the natural order of our moral ideas. The utilitarian principle is valuable as a corrective of error, and shows to us a side of ethics which is apt to be neglected. It may be admitted further that right and utility are co-extensive, and that he who makes the happiness of mankind his object has one of the highest and noblest motives of human action. But utility is not the historical basis of morality; nor the aspect in which moral and religious ideas commonly occur to the mind. The greatest happiness of all is, as we believe, the far-off result of the divine government of the universe. The greatest happiness of the individual is certainly to be found in a life of virtue and goodness. But we seem to be more assured of a law of right than we can be of a divine purpose, that ‘all mankind should be saved;’ and we infer the one from the other. And the greatest happiness of the individual may be the reverse of the greatest happiness in the ordinary sense of the term, and may be realised in a life of pain, or in a voluntary death. Further, the word ‘happiness’ has several ambiguities; it may mean either pleasure or an ideal life, happiness subjective or objective, in this world or in another, of ourselves only or of our neighbours and of all men everywhere. By the modern founder of Utilitarianism the self-regarding and disinterested motives of action are included under the same term, although they are commonly opposed by us as benevolence and self-love. The word happiness has not the definiteness or the sacredness of ‘truth’ and ‘right’; it does not equally appeal to our higher nature, and has not sunk into the conscience of mankind. It is associated too much with the comforts and conveniences of life; too little with ‘the goods of the soul which we desire for their own sake.’ In a great trial, or danger, or temptation, or in any great and heroic action, it is scarcely thought of. For these reasons ‘the greatest happiness’ principle is not the true foundation of ethics. But though not the first principle, it is the second, which is like unto it, and is often of easier application. For the larger part of human actions are neither right nor wrong, except in so far as they tend to the happiness of mankind (Introd. to Gorgias and Philebus).

First comes duty, then happiness; that’s the natural order of our moral thinking. The utilitarian principle serves as a useful correction for mistakes and highlights aspects of ethics that are often overlooked. It can also be accepted that what is right and what is useful go hand in hand, and anyone who aims to promote the happiness of humanity has one of the highest and most noble motivations for human behavior. However, utility isn’t the historical basis of morality, nor is it the way moral and religious ideas usually come to mind. We believe that the greatest happiness for all is a distant result of the divine management of the universe. The greatest happiness for an individual is definitely found in a life of virtue and goodness. Yet, we seem to have more confidence in a law of right than we do in a divine purpose that desires ‘the salvation of all mankind;’ we deduce one from the other. Moreover, the greatest happiness for an individual might completely contradict the greatest happiness in the usual sense and could be experienced through a life of suffering or through a voluntary death. Additionally, the term ‘happiness’ has several meanings; it can refer to either pleasure or an ideal life, subjective or objective happiness, here in this world or in another, concerning ourselves only or about our neighbors and all people everywhere. The modern founder of Utilitarianism combines self-regarding and selfless motivations under the same term, even though we typically contrast them as benevolence and self-love. The word happiness lacks the precision or sanctity of ‘truth’ and ‘right’; it doesn’t engage our higher nature in the same way and hasn’t embedded itself in the conscience of humanity. It is too closely linked with the comforts and conveniences of life and not enough with ‘the goods of the soul that we desire for their own sake.’ During major trials, dangers, temptations, or any significant heroic actions, happiness is hardly considered at all. For these reasons, the principle of ‘the greatest happiness’ is not the proper foundation of ethics. However, even if it isn’t the primary principle, it is the second one, which is similar and often easier to apply. Most human actions are neither right nor wrong except to the extent that they contribute to the happiness of mankind (Introd. to Gorgias and Philebus).

The same question reappears in politics, where the useful or expedient seems to claim a larger sphere and to have a greater authority. For concerning political measures, we chiefly ask: How will they affect the happiness of mankind? Yet here too we may observe that what we term expediency is merely the law of right limited by the conditions of human society. Right and truth are the highest aims of government as well as of individuals; and we ought not to lose sight of them because we cannot directly enforce them. They appeal to the better mind of nations; and sometimes they are too much for merely temporal interests to resist. They are the watchwords which all men use in matters of public policy, as well as in their private dealings; the peace of Europe may be said to depend upon them. In the most commercial and utilitarian states of society the power of ideas remains. And all the higher class of statesmen have in them something of that idealism which Pericles is said to have gathered from the teaching of Anaxagoras. They recognise that the true leader of men must be above the motives of ambition, and that national character is of greater value than material comfort and prosperity. And this is the order of thought in Plato; first, he expects his citizens to do their duty, and then under favourable circumstances, that is to say, in a well-ordered State, their happiness is assured. That he was far from excluding the modern principle of utility in politics is sufficiently evident from other passages; in which ‘the most beneficial is affirmed to be the most honourable’, and also ‘the most sacred’.

The same question keeps coming up in politics, where what’s useful or convenient seems to take precedence and hold more power. When it comes to political decisions, we mainly ask: How will they impact the happiness of people? However, we can also see that what we call expediency is simply the law of right restricted by the realities of human society. Right and truth are the highest goals of government as well as individuals, and we shouldn't lose sight of them just because we can't enforce them directly. They resonate with the better judgment of nations, and sometimes they are too strong for short-term interests to ignore. They are the guiding principles that everyone refers to in public policy and their personal transactions; the peace of Europe could be said to rely on them. Even in the most commercial and practical societies, the power of ideas endures. All the top-tier statesmen exhibit a touch of the idealism that Pericles is said to have drawn from Anaxagoras’ teachings. They understand that a true leader must rise above the selfish motives of ambition, and that national character is more important than material wealth and prosperity. This aligns with Plato's way of thinking; first, he expects his citizens to fulfill their responsibilities, and then under favorable conditions, that is, in a well-ordered state, their happiness is guaranteed. It's clear from other passages that he did not dismiss the modern principle of utility in politics, where “the most beneficial is said to be the most honorable” and also “the most sacred.”

We may note

We should note

(1) The manner in which the objection of Adeimantus here, is designed to draw out and deepen the argument of Socrates.

(1) The way Adeimantus's objection here is meant to expand and deepen Socrates' argument.

(2) The conception of a whole as lying at the foundation both of politics and of art, in the latter supplying the only principle of criticism, which, under the various names of harmony, symmetry, measure, proportion, unity, the Greek seems to have applied to works of art.

(2) The idea that a whole is the basis of both politics and art, with art providing the only principle of criticism—referred to by the Greeks as harmony, symmetry, measure, proportion, and unity—seems to have been applied to artworks.

(3) The requirement that the State should be limited in size, after the traditional model of a Greek state; as in the Politics of Aristotle, the fact that the cities of Hellas were small is converted into a principle.

(3) The idea that the State should be small, following the traditional model of a Greek state; similar to Aristotle's Politics, the fact that the cities of Greece were small is turned into a principle.

(4) The humorous pictures of the lean dogs and the fatted sheep, of the light active boxer upsetting two stout gentlemen at least, of the ‘charming’ patients who are always making themselves worse; or again, the playful assumption that there is no State but our own; or the grave irony with which the statesman is excused who believes that he is six feet high because he is told so, and having nothing to measure with is to be pardoned for his ignorance—he is too amusing for us to be seriously angry with him.

(4) The funny pictures of the skinny dogs and the plump sheep, of the lively boxer knocking over two hefty gentlemen at least, of the ‘delightful’ patients who always end up making themselves worse; or again, the playful idea that there’s no state other than our own; or the serious irony with which we excuse the statesman who thinks he’s six feet tall just because someone tells him so, and since he has nothing to measure with, we can overlook his ignorance—he’s too entertaining for us to be genuinely angry with him.

(5) The light and superficial manner in which religion is passed over when provision has been made for two great principles,—first, that religion shall be based on the highest conception of the gods, secondly, that the true national or Hellenic type shall be maintained...

(5) The casual and superficial way that religion is treated when provisions are made for two important principles: first, that religion should be grounded in the highest understanding of the gods, and second, that the true national or Hellenic identity should be upheld...

Socrates proceeds: But where amid all this is justice? Son of Ariston, tell me where. Light a candle and search the city, and get your brother and the rest of our friends to help in seeking for her. ‘That won’t do,’ replied Glaucon, ‘you yourself promised to make the search and talked about the impiety of deserting justice.’ Well, I said, I will lead the way, but do you follow. My notion is, that our State being perfect will contain all the four virtues—wisdom, courage, temperance, justice. If we eliminate the three first, the unknown remainder will be justice.

Socrates continues: But where is justice in all of this? Son of Ariston, tell me where to find it. Light a candle and search the city, and get your brother and our other friends to help look for her. 'That won't work,' replied Glaucon, 'you promised to do the searching and talked about the importance of not abandoning justice.' Well, I said, I will take the lead, but you should follow me. My idea is that our ideal State will include all four virtues—wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice. If we remove the first three, the only thing left will be justice.

First then, of wisdom: the State which we have called into being will be wise because politic. And policy is one among many kinds of skill,—not the skill of the carpenter, or of the worker in metal, or of the husbandman, but the skill of him who advises about the interests of the whole State. Of such a kind is the skill of the guardians, who are a small class in number, far smaller than the blacksmiths; but in them is concentrated the wisdom of the State. And if this small ruling class have wisdom, then the whole State will be wise.

First, regarding wisdom: the State we’ve created will be wise because it’s political. And politics is just one type of skill—not the skill of a carpenter, a metalworker, or a farmer, but the skill of someone who advises on the interests of the entire State. This is the skill of the guardians, a small group, much smaller than the blacksmiths; but they hold the wisdom of the State. If this small ruling class possesses wisdom, then the entire State will be wise.

Our second virtue is courage, which we have no difficulty in finding in another class—that of soldiers. Courage may be defined as a sort of salvation—the never-failing salvation of the opinions which law and education have prescribed concerning dangers. You know the way in which dyers first prepare the white ground and then lay on the dye of purple or of any other colour. Colours dyed in this way become fixed, and no soap or lye will ever wash them out. Now the ground is education, and the laws are the colours; and if the ground is properly laid, neither the soap of pleasure nor the lye of pain or fear will ever wash them out. This power which preserves right opinion about danger I would ask you to call ‘courage,’ adding the epithet ‘political’ or ‘civilized’ in order to distinguish it from mere animal courage and from a higher courage which may hereafter be discussed.

Our second virtue is courage, which we can easily see in another group—soldiers. Courage can be seen as a kind of salvation—the reliable protection of the beliefs that law and education have established about dangers. Think about how dyers first prepare a white base and then apply the dye, whether it's purple or any other color. Colors dyed this way become permanent, and nothing like soap or lye can wash them out. Here, the ground represents education, and the laws are the colors; if the ground is well-prepared, neither the soap of pleasure nor the lye of pain or fear can ever erase them. This ability to maintain the right opinion about danger is what I’d like you to call ‘courage,’ adding the term ‘political’ or ‘civilized’ to differentiate it from simple animal courage and a higher form of courage we may discuss later.

Two virtues remain; temperance and justice. More than the preceding virtues temperance suggests the idea of harmony. Some light is thrown upon the nature of this virtue by the popular description of a man as ‘master of himself’—which has an absurd sound, because the master is also the servant. The expression really means that the better principle in a man masters the worse. There are in cities whole classes—women, slaves and the like—who correspond to the worse, and a few only to the better; and in our State the former class are held under control by the latter. Now to which of these classes does temperance belong? ‘To both of them.’ And our State if any will be the abode of temperance; and we were right in describing this virtue as a harmony which is diffused through the whole, making the dwellers in the city to be of one mind, and attuning the upper and middle and lower classes like the strings of an instrument, whether you suppose them to differ in wisdom, strength or wealth.

Two virtues remain: temperance and justice. More than the previous virtues, temperance implies a sense of harmony. The idea of a person being a ‘master of himself’ sheds some light on this virtue—though it sounds odd because the master is also a servant. What it really means is that the better aspect of a person controls the worse. In cities, there are entire groups—women, slaves, and the like—that represent the worse, while only a few represent the better; in our State, the first group is kept in check by the second. So, to which class does temperance belong? 'To both.' And our State, if any, will be the home of temperance; we were correct in describing this virtue as a harmony that spreads throughout the whole, uniting the city’s inhabitants in common purpose and syncing the upper, middle, and lower classes like the strings of an instrument, regardless of any differences in wisdom, strength, or wealth.

And now we are near the spot; let us draw in and surround the cover and watch with all our eyes, lest justice should slip away and escape. Tell me, if you see the thicket move first. ‘Nay, I would have you lead.’ Well then, offer up a prayer and follow. The way is dark and difficult; but we must push on. I begin to see a track. ‘Good news.’ Why, Glaucon, our dulness of scent is quite ludicrous! While we are straining our eyes into the distance, justice is tumbling out at our feet. We are as bad as people looking for a thing which they have in their hands. Have you forgotten our old principle of the division of labour, or of every man doing his own business, concerning which we spoke at the foundation of the State—what but this was justice? Is there any other virtue remaining which can compete with wisdom and temperance and courage in the scale of political virtue? For ‘every one having his own’ is the great object of government; and the great object of trade is that every man should do his own business. Not that there is much harm in a carpenter trying to be a cobbler, or a cobbler transforming himself into a carpenter; but great evil may arise from the cobbler leaving his last and turning into a guardian or legislator, or when a single individual is trainer, warrior, legislator, all in one. And this evil is injustice, or every man doing another’s business. I do not say that as yet we are in a condition to arrive at a final conclusion. For the definition which we believe to hold good in states has still to be tested by the individual. Having read the large letters we will now come back to the small. From the two together a brilliant light may be struck out...

And now we're close to the spot; let’s pull in, surround the area, and keep a close watch, so justice doesn’t slip away and escape. Let me know if you see the bushes move first. 'No, I want you to lead.' Alright then, let's say a prayer and move forward. The path is dark and tricky, but we must keep going. I think I see a trail. 'Good news.' Glaucon, our inability to smell is kind of ridiculous! While we're squinting into the distance, justice is right at our feet. We’re just like people searching for something that they’re already holding. Have you forgotten our old principle about the division of labor, about everyone doing their own job, which we discussed when we set up the State—wasn't that justice? Is there any other virtue that can match wisdom, self-control, and bravery when it comes to political virtue? Because the main goal of government is to ensure that 'everyone has their own,' and the main goal of trade is for each person to do their own work. It’s not that there’s too much harm in a carpenter trying to be a cobbler, or a cobbler becoming a carpenter; but serious trouble can arise when a cobbler abandons his tools to become a guardian or a legislator, or when one person is a trainer, warrior, and legislator all at once. And this trouble is injustice, or everyone doing someone else's job. I’m not saying we’re ready to reach a final conclusion yet. The definition we think applies in states still needs to be tested on individuals. After reading the bigger print, let’s return to the smaller. From the two together, we might strike a brilliant light...

Socrates proceeds to discover the nature of justice by a method of residues. Each of the first three virtues corresponds to one of the three parts of the soul and one of the three classes in the State, although the third, temperance, has more of the nature of a harmony than the first two. If there be a fourth virtue, that can only be sought for in the relation of the three parts in the soul or classes in the State to one another. It is obvious and simple, and for that very reason has not been found out. The modern logician will be inclined to object that ideas cannot be separated like chemical substances, but that they run into one another and may be only different aspects or names of the same thing, and such in this instance appears to be the case. For the definition here given of justice is verbally the same as one of the definitions of temperance given by Socrates in the Charmides, which however is only provisional, and is afterwards rejected. And so far from justice remaining over when the other virtues are eliminated, the justice and temperance of the Republic can with difficulty be distinguished. Temperance appears to be the virtue of a part only, and one of three, whereas justice is a universal virtue of the whole soul. Yet on the other hand temperance is also described as a sort of harmony, and in this respect is akin to justice. Justice seems to differ from temperance in degree rather than in kind; whereas temperance is the harmony of discordant elements, justice is the perfect order by which all natures and classes do their own business, the right man in the right place, the division and co-operation of all the citizens. Justice, again, is a more abstract notion than the other virtues, and therefore, from Plato’s point of view, the foundation of them, to which they are referred and which in idea precedes them. The proposal to omit temperance is a mere trick of style intended to avoid monotony.

Socrates seeks to understand the nature of justice through a method of elimination. Each of the first three virtues aligns with one of the three parts of the soul and one of the three classes in the State, though the third virtue, temperance, is more like a harmony than the first two. If there is a fourth virtue, it can only be explored through the relationships among the three parts of the soul or the classes in the State. It's clear and straightforward, which is why it hasn't been discovered. A modern logician might argue that ideas can't be separated like chemical substances, as they overlap and may just be different aspects or names for the same concept, which seems to be the case here. The definition of justice provided here is verbally identical to one of the definitions of temperance that Socrates offers in the Charmides, which is only a temporary definition and is later dismissed. Moreover, justice does not remain when the other virtues are taken away; in fact, distinguishing between justice and temperance in the Republic is quite challenging. Temperance appears to be a virtue of a specific part, one of three, while justice is a universal virtue of the whole soul. However, temperance is also described as a kind of harmony, making it similar to justice in that regard. Justice seems to differ from temperance more in degree than in kind; where temperance is the harmony of conflicting elements, justice is the perfect order in which all natures and classes perform their roles, the right person in the right place, allowing all citizens to work together. Additionally, justice is a more abstract concept than the other virtues, and from Plato's perspective, it serves as their foundation, the idea that precedes them. The suggestion to leave out temperance is simply a stylistic choice meant to prevent repetitiveness.

There is a famous question discussed in one of the earlier Dialogues of Plato (Protagoras; Arist. Nic. Ethics), ‘Whether the virtues are one or many?’ This receives an answer which is to the effect that there are four cardinal virtues (now for the first time brought together in ethical philosophy), and one supreme over the rest, which is not like Aristotle’s conception of universal justice, virtue relative to others, but the whole of virtue relative to the parts. To this universal conception of justice or order in the first education and in the moral nature of man, the still more universal conception of the good in the second education and in the sphere of speculative knowledge seems to succeed. Both might be equally described by the terms ‘law,’ ‘order,’ ‘harmony;’ but while the idea of good embraces ‘all time and all existence,’ the conception of justice is not extended beyond man.

There’s a well-known question discussed in one of Plato’s earlier dialogues (Protagoras; Arist. Nic. Ethics): ‘Are virtues one or many?’ The answer suggests that there are four main virtues (which are combined for the first time in ethical philosophy), and one that is supreme over the others. This isn’t like Aristotle’s idea of universal justice, which is virtue concerning others, but instead includes the entirety of virtue in relation to its parts. This universal concept of justice or order in early education and human morality seems to be succeeded by an even broader idea of the good in later education and in the realm of theoretical knowledge. Both can be described with terms like ‘law,’ ‘order,’ ‘harmony’; however, while the idea of good encompasses ‘all time and all existence,’ the concept of justice doesn’t extend beyond humanity.

...Socrates is now going to identify the individual and the State. But first he must prove that there are three parts of the individual soul. His argument is as follows:—Quantity makes no difference in quality. The word ‘just,’ whether applied to the individual or to the State, has the same meaning. And the term ‘justice’ implied that the same three principles in the State and in the individual were doing their own business. But are they really three or one? The question is difficult, and one which can hardly be solved by the methods which we are now using; but the truer and longer way would take up too much of our time. ‘The shorter will satisfy me.’ Well then, you would admit that the qualities of states mean the qualities of the individuals who compose them? The Scythians and Thracians are passionate, our own race intellectual, and the Egyptians and Phoenicians covetous, because the individual members of each have such and such a character; the difficulty is to determine whether the several principles are one or three; whether, that is to say, we reason with one part of our nature, desire with another, are angry with another, or whether the whole soul comes into play in each sort of action. This enquiry, however, requires a very exact definition of terms. The same thing in the same relation cannot be affected in two opposite ways. But there is no impossibility in a man standing still, yet moving his arms, or in a top which is fixed on one spot going round upon its axis. There is no necessity to mention all the possible exceptions; let us provisionally assume that opposites cannot do or be or suffer opposites in the same relation. And to the class of opposites belong assent and dissent, desire and avoidance. And one form of desire is thirst and hunger: and here arises a new point—thirst is thirst of drink, hunger is hunger of food; not of warm drink or of a particular kind of food, with the single exception of course that the very fact of our desiring anything implies that it is good. When relative terms have no attributes, their correlatives have no attributes; when they have attributes, their correlatives also have them. For example, the term ‘greater’ is simply relative to ‘less,’ and knowledge refers to a subject of knowledge. But on the other hand, a particular knowledge is of a particular subject. Again, every science has a distinct character, which is defined by an object; medicine, for example, is the science of health, although not to be confounded with health. Having cleared our ideas thus far, let us return to the original instance of thirst, which has a definite object—drink. Now the thirsty soul may feel two distinct impulses; the animal one saying ‘Drink;’ the rational one, which says ‘Do not drink.’ The two impulses are contradictory; and therefore we may assume that they spring from distinct principles in the soul. But is passion a third principle, or akin to desire? There is a story of a certain Leontius which throws some light on this question. He was coming up from the Piraeus outside the north wall, and he passed a spot where there were dead bodies lying by the executioner. He felt a longing desire to see them and also an abhorrence of them; at first he turned away and shut his eyes, then, suddenly tearing them open, he said,—‘Take your fill, ye wretches, of the fair sight.’ Now is there not here a third principle which is often found to come to the assistance of reason against desire, but never of desire against reason? This is passion or spirit, of the separate existence of which we may further convince ourselves by putting the following case:—When a man suffers justly, if he be of a generous nature he is not indignant at the hardships which he undergoes: but when he suffers unjustly, his indignation is his great support; hunger and thirst cannot tame him; the spirit within him must do or die, until the voice of the shepherd, that is, of reason, bidding his dog bark no more, is heard within. This shows that passion is the ally of reason. Is passion then the same with reason? No, for the former exists in children and brutes; and Homer affords a proof of the distinction between them when he says, ‘He smote his breast, and thus rebuked his soul.’

...Socrates is now going to link the individual and the State. But first, he needs to demonstrate that there are three parts of the individual soul. His argument is as follows: Quantity doesn’t affect quality. The term ‘just,’ whether referring to an individual or to the State, carries the same meaning. And the concept of ‘justice’ suggests that the same three principles are operating in both the State and the individual. But are they actually three or just one? This is a complex question, one that can't be easily resolved by our current methods; however, a more thorough approach would take too much time. ‘The shorter will work for me.’ Alright then, would you agree that the qualities of states reflect the qualities of the individuals within them? The Scythians and Thracians are emotional, our own people are intellectual, and the Egyptians and Phoenicians are greedy because the members of each group have specific characters; the challenge is to determine whether these different principles are one or three; in other words, do we reason with one part of our nature, desire with another, and get angry with yet another? Or does the whole soul engage in each type of action? This inquiry requires precise definitions. The same thing in the same context can’t be affected in two opposite ways. However, there’s no impossibility in a person being still while moving their arms or in a top that stays in one spot spinning on its axis. We don’t need to list all the possible exceptions; let’s temporarily assume that opposites can’t do, be, or experience opposites in the same context. Among these opposites are assent and dissent, desire and avoidance. One form of desire is thirst and hunger: and here comes a new point—thirst is a thirst for drink, hunger is a hunger for food; not for warm drinks or specific types of food, with the single exception that the very act of desiring something implies that it is good. When relative terms lack attributes, their correlatives also lack attributes; when they have attributes, their correlatives possess them too. For example, the term ‘greater’ is simply relative to ‘less,’ and knowledge pertains to a subject of knowledge. On the other hand, specific knowledge is of a particular subject. Furthermore, every science has its own character, defined by an object; for instance, medicine is the science of health, although it shouldn’t be confused with health itself. Having clarified our ideas so far, let’s return to the original example of thirst, which has a clear object—drink. Now the thirsty soul may feel two different impulses; the animal one urging, ‘Drink;’ the rational one saying, ‘Don’t drink.’ These two impulses are contradictory; thus we can assume they arise from distinct principles in the soul. But is passion a third principle, or is it similar to desire? There’s a story about a certain Leontius that sheds light on this question. He was coming up from the Piraeus outside the north wall and passed by a place where there were dead bodies lying by the executioner. He felt a strong desire to see them and also a repulsion towards them; initially he turned away and shut his eyes, then suddenly tearing them open, he said, ‘Take your fill, you wretches, of the fair sight.’ Now, isn’t there a third principle here that often supports reason against desire, but never supports desire against reason? This is passion or spirit, and we can further confirm its separate existence by considering the following scenario: When a person suffers justly, if they have a generous nature, they don’t feel angry about the hardships they face; but when they suffer unjustly, their indignation becomes a major source of strength for them; hunger and thirst can’t subdue them; it’s the spirit within that must act or perish until the voice of reason—the shepherd—commands their inner dog to stop barking. This shows that passion is an ally of reason. So, is passion the same as reason? No, because passion exists in children and animals; Homer illustrates the distinction by saying, ‘He smote his breast, and thus rebuked his soul.’

And now, at last, we have reached firm ground, and are able to infer that the virtues of the State and of the individual are the same. For wisdom and courage and justice in the State are severally the wisdom and courage and justice in the individuals who form the State. Each of the three classes will do the work of its own class in the State, and each part in the individual soul; reason, the superior, and passion, the inferior, will be harmonized by the influence of music and gymnastic. The counsellor and the warrior, the head and the arm, will act together in the town of Mansoul, and keep the desires in proper subjection. The courage of the warrior is that quality which preserves a right opinion about dangers in spite of pleasures and pains. The wisdom of the counsellor is that small part of the soul which has authority and reason. The virtue of temperance is the friendship of the ruling and the subject principles, both in the State and in the individual. Of justice we have already spoken; and the notion already given of it may be confirmed by common instances. Will the just state or the just individual steal, lie, commit adultery, or be guilty of impiety to gods and men? ‘No.’ And is not the reason of this that the several principles, whether in the state or in the individual, do their own business? And justice is the quality which makes just men and just states. Moreover, our old division of labour, which required that there should be one man for one use, was a dream or anticipation of what was to follow; and that dream has now been realized in justice, which begins by binding together the three chords of the soul, and then acts harmoniously in every relation of life. And injustice, which is the insubordination and disobedience of the inferior elements in the soul, is the opposite of justice, and is inharmonious and unnatural, being to the soul what disease is to the body; for in the soul as well as in the body, good or bad actions produce good or bad habits. And virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul, and vice is the disease and weakness and deformity of the soul.

And now, at last, we have reached solid ground and can understand that the virtues of the State and the individual are the same. Wisdom, courage, and justice in the State reflect the wisdom, courage, and justice in the individuals who make up that State. Each of the three classes will fulfill its own role in the State and each part in the individual soul; reason, the superior part, and passion, the inferior part, will be harmonized through the influence of music and physical training. The advisor and the warrior, the head and the arm, will work together in the community of Mansoul and keep desires in check. The warrior's courage is the quality that maintains a correct view of dangers despite pleasures and pains. The wisdom of the advisor is that small part of the soul that holds authority and reason. The virtue of temperance is the harmony between the ruling and subordinate principles, both in the State and in the individual. We have already discussed justice, and the concept presented can be backed up by common examples. Would a just State or a just individual steal, lie, commit adultery, or be impious towards gods and men? 'No.' Isn't this because the various principles, whether in the State or the individual, perform their own roles? And justice is the quality that creates just individuals and just States. Furthermore, our earlier division of labor, which called for one person for one task, was a glimpse of what was to come; and that vision has now been realized in justice, which starts by bringing together the three elements of the soul, and then acts harmoniously in every aspect of life. Injustice, which is the rebellion and disobedience of the lower elements in the soul, is the opposite of justice and is disharmonious and unnatural, just as disease is to the body; because in both the soul and body, good or bad actions create good or bad habits. Virtue is the health, beauty, and well-being of the soul, while vice is the disease, weakness, and deformity of the soul.

Again the old question returns upon us: Is justice or injustice the more profitable? The question has become ridiculous. For injustice, like mortal disease, makes life not worth having. Come up with me to the hill which overhangs the city and look down upon the single form of virtue, and the infinite forms of vice, among which are four special ones, characteristic both of states and of individuals. And the state which corresponds to the single form of virtue is that which we have been describing, wherein reason rules under one of two names—monarchy and aristocracy. Thus there are five forms in all, both of states and of souls...

Once again, the old question arises: Is justice or injustice more beneficial? The question has become absurd. Injustice, like a serious illness, makes life not worth living. Join me atop the hill that overlooks the city and observe the singular form of virtue and the countless forms of vice, among which are four particular ones that define both states and individuals. The state that aligns with the single form of virtue is the one we’ve been discussing, where reason governs under one of two titles—monarchy or aristocracy. So, in total, there are five forms, both of states and of souls...

In attempting to prove that the soul has three separate faculties, Plato takes occasion to discuss what makes difference of faculties. And the criterion which he proposes is difference in the working of the faculties. The same faculty cannot produce contradictory effects. But the path of early reasoners is beset by thorny entanglements, and he will not proceed a step without first clearing the ground. This leads him into a tiresome digression, which is intended to explain the nature of contradiction. First, the contradiction must be at the same time and in the same relation. Secondly, no extraneous word must be introduced into either of the terms in which the contradictory proposition is expressed: for example, thirst is of drink, not of warm drink. He implies, what he does not say, that if, by the advice of reason, or by the impulse of anger, a man is restrained from drinking, this proves that thirst, or desire under which thirst is included, is distinct from anger and reason. But suppose that we allow the term ‘thirst’ or ‘desire’ to be modified, and say an ‘angry thirst,’ or a ‘revengeful desire,’ then the two spheres of desire and anger overlap and become confused. This case therefore has to be excluded. And still there remains an exception to the rule in the use of the term ‘good,’ which is always implied in the object of desire. These are the discussions of an age before logic; and any one who is wearied by them should remember that they are necessary to the clearing up of ideas in the first development of the human faculties.

In his effort to demonstrate that the soul has three distinct faculties, Plato discusses what differentiates these faculties. He suggests that the key to understanding their differences lies in how they function. A single faculty can't produce opposing effects. However, the path taken by early thinkers is filled with complicated issues, and he won't move forward without first addressing them. This leads him into a lengthy digression meant to clarify the nature of contradiction. First, the contradiction must occur at the same time and in the same context. Second, no outside word should be added to either term in the contradictory statement; for example, thirst refers to drink, not warm drink. He implies, though he doesn't state it outright, that if a person is prevented from drinking due to reason or anger, it shows that thirst, or the desire that includes thirst, is separate from anger and reason. But if we allow the terms ‘thirst’ or ‘desire’ to be modified and say ‘angry thirst’ or ‘revengeful desire,’ the two areas of desire and anger overlap and become unclear. This situation must be excluded. Still, there’s an exception with the term ‘good,’ which is always inherent in what we desire. These discussions arise from a time before formal logic; anyone who finds them tiresome should remember that they are essential for clarifying ideas in the early development of human understanding.

The psychology of Plato extends no further than the division of the soul into the rational, irascible, and concupiscent elements, which, as far as we know, was first made by him, and has been retained by Aristotle and succeeding ethical writers. The chief difficulty in this early analysis of the mind is to define exactly the place of the irascible faculty (Greek), which may be variously described under the terms righteous indignation, spirit, passion. It is the foundation of courage, which includes in Plato moral courage, the courage of enduring pain, and of surmounting intellectual difficulties, as well as of meeting dangers in war. Though irrational, it inclines to side with the rational: it cannot be aroused by punishment when justly inflicted: it sometimes takes the form of an enthusiasm which sustains a man in the performance of great actions. It is the ‘lion heart’ with which the reason makes a treaty. On the other hand it is negative rather than positive; it is indignant at wrong or falsehood, but does not, like Love in the Symposium and Phaedrus, aspire to the vision of Truth or Good. It is the peremptory military spirit which prevails in the government of honour. It differs from anger (Greek), this latter term having no accessory notion of righteous indignation. Although Aristotle has retained the word, yet we may observe that ‘passion’ (Greek) has with him lost its affinity to the rational and has become indistinguishable from ‘anger’ (Greek). And to this vernacular use Plato himself in the Laws seems to revert, though not always. By modern philosophy too, as well as in our ordinary conversation, the words anger or passion are employed almost exclusively in a bad sense; there is no connotation of a just or reasonable cause by which they are aroused. The feeling of ‘righteous indignation’ is too partial and accidental to admit of our regarding it as a separate virtue or habit. We are tempted also to doubt whether Plato is right in supposing that an offender, however justly condemned, could be expected to acknowledge the justice of his sentence; this is the spirit of a philosopher or martyr rather than of a criminal.

The psychology of Plato goes no further than breaking down the soul into three parts: the rational, the spirited, and the appetitive elements. As far as we know, he was the first to make this distinction, and it has been carried on by Aristotle and later ethical thinkers. The main challenge in this early analysis of the mind is pinpointing the exact role of the spirited faculty (Greek), which can be described in various ways such as righteous anger, spirit, or passion. It serves as the foundation of courage, which for Plato includes moral courage, the courage to endure pain, to tackle intellectual challenges, and to face dangers in battle. Although it can be irrational, it tends to align with reason; it can't be stirred by punishment that is deserved; and it can sometimes manifest as the enthusiasm that drives a person to accomplish great deeds. It represents the 'lion heart' that reason brokers a deal with. However, it is more negative than positive; it reacts against wrong or dishonesty but does not, like Love in the Symposium and Phaedrus, strive for the understanding of Truth or the Good. It embodies the assertive military spirit that dominates honorable governance. It differs from anger (Greek), as this latter term lacks the notion of righteous indignation. While Aristotle kept the term, it's noticeable that 'passion' (Greek) has lost its connection to reason and has become indistinguishable from 'anger' (Greek). Plato himself appears to return to this contemporary usage in the Laws, though not always. In modern philosophy and our everyday conversations, the terms anger and passion are almost exclusively used in a negative sense, without suggesting a just or reasonable motive behind them. The feeling of 'righteous indignation' is too limited and random to be considered a distinct virtue or habit. We are also inclined to question whether Plato is correct in assuming that an offender, no matter how justly condemned, would acknowledge the fairness of their sentence; this mindset seems more fitting for a philosopher or martyr than for a criminal.

We may observe how nearly Plato approaches Aristotle’s famous thesis, that ‘good actions produce good habits.’ The words ‘as healthy practices (Greek) produce health, so do just practices produce justice,’ have a sound very like the Nicomachean Ethics. But we note also that an incidental remark in Plato has become a far-reaching principle in Aristotle, and an inseparable part of a great Ethical system.

We can see how closely Plato aligns with Aristotle’s well-known idea that “good actions create good habits.” The phrase “just as healthy practices create health, just practices create justice" sounds a lot like the Nicomachean Ethics. However, we also notice that a small comment made by Plato has evolved into a significant principle in Aristotle’s work, becoming an essential part of a major ethical system.

There is a difficulty in understanding what Plato meant by ‘the longer way’: he seems to intimate some metaphysic of the future which will not be satisfied with arguing from the principle of contradiction. In the sixth and seventh books (compare Sophist and Parmenides) he has given us a sketch of such a metaphysic; but when Glaucon asks for the final revelation of the idea of good, he is put off with the declaration that he has not yet studied the preliminary sciences. How he would have filled up the sketch, or argued about such questions from a higher point of view, we can only conjecture. Perhaps he hoped to find some a priori method of developing the parts out of the whole; or he might have asked which of the ideas contains the other ideas, and possibly have stumbled on the Hegelian identity of the ‘ego’ and the ‘universal.’ Or he may have imagined that ideas might be constructed in some manner analogous to the construction of figures and numbers in the mathematical sciences. The most certain and necessary truth was to Plato the universal; and to this he was always seeking to refer all knowledge or opinion, just as in modern times we seek to rest them on the opposite pole of induction and experience. The aspirations of metaphysicians have always tended to pass beyond the limits of human thought and language: they seem to have reached a height at which they are ‘moving about in worlds unrealized,’ and their conceptions, although profoundly affecting their own minds, become invisible or unintelligible to others. We are not therefore surprized to find that Plato himself has nowhere clearly explained his doctrine of ideas; or that his school in a later generation, like his contemporaries Glaucon and Adeimantus, were unable to follow him in this region of speculation. In the Sophist, where he is refuting the scepticism which maintained either that there was no such thing as predication, or that all might be predicated of all, he arrives at the conclusion that some ideas combine with some, but not all with all. But he makes only one or two steps forward on this path; he nowhere attains to any connected system of ideas, or even to a knowledge of the most elementary relations of the sciences to one another.

There’s a challenge in understanding what Plato meant by ‘the longer way’: he seems to suggest a future metaphysics that won’t be satisfied with just arguing from the principle of contradiction. In the sixth and seventh books (see the Sophist and Parmenides), he offers a rough outline of this metaphysics; however, when Glaucon asks for the final explanation of the idea of good, he is told that he hasn’t yet studied the necessary foundational sciences. How he would have expanded on this outline or discussed these questions from a higher perspective remains uncertain. Perhaps he hoped to discover some a priori method for developing the parts from the whole; or he might have inquired which of the ideas contains the others, and possibly stumbled upon the Hegelian concept of the ‘ego’ and the ‘universal.’ He may have thought that ideas could be constructed similarly to how figures and numbers are built in the mathematical sciences. For Plato, the most certain and necessary truth was the universal; he continuously sought to relate all knowledge or opinions to this idea, just as we today try to base them on the opposite end of induction and experience. The aspirations of metaphysicians have always aimed to surpass the limits of human thought and language: they appear to reach a point where they are ‘moving about in unrealized worlds,’ and their concepts, while deeply impactful on their own minds, become invisible or unintelligible to others. Thus, it's not surprising that Plato himself never clearly explained his doctrine of ideas; or that his school, in a later generation, like his contemporaries Glaucon and Adeimantus, struggled to follow him in this area of speculation. In the Sophist, where he counters the skepticism that argued either that there’s no such thing as predication or that anything could be predicated of everything, he concludes that some ideas can combine with others, but not all can combine with all. However, he makes only one or two advances on this journey; he never develops a coherent system of ideas or even achieves a basic understanding of how the sciences relate to each other.

BOOK V. I was going to enumerate the four forms of vice or decline in states, when Polemarchus—he was sitting a little farther from me than Adeimantus—taking him by the coat and leaning towards him, said something in an undertone, of which I only caught the words, ‘Shall we let him off?’ ‘Certainly not,’ said Adeimantus, raising his voice. Whom, I said, are you not going to let off? ‘You,’ he said. Why? ‘Because we think that you are not dealing fairly with us in omitting women and children, of whom you have slily disposed under the general formula that friends have all things in common.’ And was I not right? ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘but there are many sorts of communism or community, and we want to know which of them is right. The company, as you have just heard, are resolved to have a further explanation.’ Thrasymachus said, ‘Do you think that we have come hither to dig for gold, or to hear you discourse?’ Yes, I said; but the discourse should be of a reasonable length. Glaucon added, ‘Yes, Socrates, and there is reason in spending the whole of life in such discussions; but pray, without more ado, tell us how this community is to be carried out, and how the interval between birth and education is to be filled up.’ Well, I said, the subject has several difficulties—What is possible? is the first question. What is desirable? is the second. ‘Fear not,’ he replied, ‘for you are speaking among friends.’ That, I replied, is a sorry consolation; I shall destroy my friends as well as myself. Not that I mind a little innocent laughter; but he who kills the truth is a murderer. ‘Then,’ said Glaucon, laughing, ‘in case you should murder us we will acquit you beforehand, and you shall be held free from the guilt of deceiving us.’

BOOK V. I was about to list the four types of vice or decline in states when Polemarchus—who was sitting a bit farther away from me than Adeimantus—leaned over and whispered something to him. I only caught the words, “Should we let him off?” “Absolutely not,” Adeimantus said, raising his voice. “Who are you not letting off?” I asked. “You,” he replied. “Why?” “Because we think you’re not being fair by leaving out women and children, whom you’ve sneaked in under the idea that friends share everything.” Was I not right? “Yes,” he said, “but there are many kinds of communism or community, and we want to figure out which one is correct. The group, as you just heard, wants a further explanation.” Thrasymachus said, “Do you think we came here to dig for gold or to listen to you talk?” “Yes,” I replied, “but the talk should be a reasonable length.” Glaucon added, “Yes, Socrates, and there is value in spending our whole lives on these discussions; but please, without further delay, tell us how this community is going to work and how we’ll fill the time between birth and education.” “Well,” I said, “the topic has several challenges—What is possible? is the first question. What is desirable? is the second.” “Don’t worry,” he replied, “because you’re speaking among friends.” “That’s not much comfort,” I said, “since I could end up hurting my friends as well as myself. I don’t mind a little innocent laughter, but he who kills the truth is a murderer.” “Then,” Glaucon said, laughing, “just in case you do murder us, we’ll clear you in advance, so you won’t be guilty of deceiving us.”

Socrates proceeds:—The guardians of our state are to be watch-dogs, as we have already said. Now dogs are not divided into hes and shes—we do not take the masculine gender out to hunt and leave the females at home to look after their puppies. They have the same employments—the only difference between them is that the one sex is stronger and the other weaker. But if women are to have the same employments as men, they must have the same education—they must be taught music and gymnastics, and the art of war. I know that a great joke will be made of their riding on horseback and carrying weapons; the sight of the naked old wrinkled women showing their agility in the palaestra will certainly not be a vision of beauty, and may be expected to become a famous jest. But we must not mind the wits; there was a time when they might have laughed at our present gymnastics. All is habit: people have at last found out that the exposure is better than the concealment of the person, and now they laugh no more. Evil only should be the subject of ridicule.

Socrates continues:—The guardians of our state are meant to be watch-dogs, as we've already mentioned. Now, dogs aren't divided into males and females—we don’t take the male dogs out to hunt and leave the females at home to care for their puppies. They have the same roles—the only difference is that one sex is stronger and the other is weaker. But if women are going to have the same roles as men, they need to have the same education—they must learn music, sports, and military skills. I know people will joke about women riding horses and carrying weapons; the sight of old, wrinkled women showing their skills in the gym won't exactly be pleasant, and it’s sure to become a running joke. But we shouldn't worry about what the critics say; there was a time when they would have laughed at our current sports practices. It's all about habit: people have finally realized that exposure is better than hiding the body, and now they don’t laugh anymore. Only bad things should be the subject of ridicule.

The first question is, whether women are able either wholly or partially to share in the employments of men. And here we may be charged with inconsistency in making the proposal at all. For we started originally with the division of labour; and the diversity of employments was based on the difference of natures. But is there no difference between men and women? Nay, are they not wholly different? THERE was the difficulty, Glaucon, which made me unwilling to speak of family relations. However, when a man is out of his depth, whether in a pool or in an ocean, he can only swim for his life; and we must try to find a way of escape, if we can.

The first question is whether women can fully or partially take on the jobs of men. We might be accused of being inconsistent in raising this question at all because we initially discussed the division of labor, which was based on our understanding of different natures. But is there no difference between men and women? In fact, are they not completely different? That’s the challenge, Glaucon, which made me hesitant to discuss family relationships. However, when someone is in over their head, whether in a pool or the ocean, they can only swim for their life; and we must try to find a way out if we can.

The argument is, that different natures have different uses, and the natures of men and women are said to differ. But this is only a verbal opposition. We do not consider that the difference may be purely nominal and accidental; for example, a bald man and a hairy man are opposed in a single point of view, but you cannot infer that because a bald man is a cobbler a hairy man ought not to be a cobbler. Now why is such an inference erroneous? Simply because the opposition between them is partial only, like the difference between a male physician and a female physician, not running through the whole nature, like the difference between a physician and a carpenter. And if the difference of the sexes is only that the one beget and the other bear children, this does not prove that they ought to have distinct educations. Admitting that women differ from men in capacity, do not men equally differ from one another? Has not nature scattered all the qualities which our citizens require indifferently up and down among the two sexes? and even in their peculiar pursuits, are not women often, though in some cases superior to men, ridiculously enough surpassed by them? Women are the same in kind as men, and have the same aptitude or want of aptitude for medicine or gymnastic or war, but in a less degree. One woman will be a good guardian, another not; and the good must be chosen to be the colleagues of our guardians. If however their natures are the same, the inference is that their education must also be the same; there is no longer anything unnatural or impossible in a woman learning music and gymnastic. And the education which we give them will be the very best, far superior to that of cobblers, and will train up the very best women, and nothing can be more advantageous to the State than this. Therefore let them strip, clothed in their chastity, and share in the toils of war and in the defence of their country; he who laughs at them is a fool for his pains.

The argument is that different natures have different purposes, and the natures of men and women are thought to differ. But this is just a superficial disagreement. We shouldn’t assume that the difference is merely nominal and random; for instance, a bald man and a hairy man may differ in one aspect, but you can’t conclude that just because a bald man is a cobbler, a hairy man shouldn’t be a cobbler too. Why is such a conclusion wrong? Simply because the difference between them is only partial, similar to the distinction between a male physician and a female physician, rather than a complete divide like the difference between a physician and a carpenter. If the only difference between the sexes is that one gives birth and the other carries children, that doesn’t mean they need to have separate educations. Assuming women are different from men in abilities, don’t men also differ from each other? Hasn’t nature spread all the qualities our society needs evenly across both sexes? And in their specific fields, aren’t women sometimes, albeit in certain instances, even better than men? Women are fundamentally similar to men and have the same potential or lack of potential for fields like medicine, sports, or warfare, just to a lesser extent. One woman can be a good guardian, while another might not be; we should choose the capable ones to be our guardians. If their natures are indeed the same, it follows that their education should also be the same; there’s nothing unnatural or impossible about a woman learning music and physical training. The education we provide them will be the best, far exceeding what cobblers receive, and it will prepare the finest women, which is highly beneficial for the State. Therefore, let them shed their modesty, uphold their integrity, and participate in the struggles of war and in defending their country; anyone who mocks them is a fool for doing so.

The first wave is past, and the argument is compelled to admit that men and women have common duties and pursuits. A second and greater wave is rolling in—community of wives and children; is this either expedient or possible? The expediency I do not doubt; I am not so sure of the possibility. ‘Nay, I think that a considerable doubt will be entertained on both points.’ I meant to have escaped the trouble of proving the first, but as you have detected the little stratagem I must even submit. Only allow me to feed my fancy like the solitary in his walks, with a dream of what might be, and then I will return to the question of what can be.

The first wave is over, and the discussion has to acknowledge that men and women share common responsibilities and goals. A second and bigger wave is coming—community for wives and children; is this feasible or even possible? I have no doubt about its feasibility; I'm just not so sure about its possibility. “No, I think there will be considerable doubt about both issues.” I intended to avoid the hassle of proving the first point, but since you’ve uncovered my little trick, I must concede. Just let me entertain my imagination like someone taking a solitary walk, dreaming of what could be, and then I'll return to the question of what can actually happen.

In the first place our rulers will enforce the laws and make new ones where they are wanted, and their allies or ministers will obey. You, as legislator, have already selected the men; and now you shall select the women. After the selection has been made, they will dwell in common houses and have their meals in common, and will be brought together by a necessity more certain than that of mathematics. But they cannot be allowed to live in licentiousness; that is an unholy thing, which the rulers are determined to prevent. For the avoidance of this, holy marriage festivals will be instituted, and their holiness will be in proportion to their usefulness. And here, Glaucon, I should like to ask (as I know that you are a breeder of birds and animals), Do you not take the greatest care in the mating? ‘Certainly.’ And there is no reason to suppose that less care is required in the marriage of human beings. But then our rulers must be skilful physicians of the State, for they will often need a strong dose of falsehood in order to bring about desirable unions between their subjects. The good must be paired with the good, and the bad with the bad, and the offspring of the one must be reared, and of the other destroyed; in this way the flock will be preserved in prime condition. Hymeneal festivals will be celebrated at times fixed with an eye to population, and the brides and bridegrooms will meet at them; and by an ingenious system of lots the rulers will contrive that the brave and the fair come together, and that those of inferior breed are paired with inferiors—the latter will ascribe to chance what is really the invention of the rulers. And when children are born, the offspring of the brave and fair will be carried to an enclosure in a certain part of the city, and there attended by suitable nurses; the rest will be hurried away to places unknown. The mothers will be brought to the fold and will suckle the children; care however must be taken that none of them recognise their own offspring; and if necessary other nurses may also be hired. The trouble of watching and getting up at night will be transferred to attendants. ‘Then the wives of our guardians will have a fine easy time when they are having children.’ And quite right too, I said, that they should.

First of all, our leaders will enforce the laws and create new ones where needed, and their allies or ministers will comply. You, as the legislator, have already chosen the men; now it's time to choose the women. Once the selection is made, they will live in shared houses and eat together, drawn together by a necessity even stronger than mathematics. However, they shouldn't be allowed to live in promiscuity; that's unacceptable, and the rulers intend to prevent it. To avoid this, sacred marriage festivals will be established, and their sanctity will depend on their practical benefits. And here, Glaucon, I want to ask (knowing that you breed birds and animals), don’t you pay extra attention to mating? “Of course.” And there's no reason to think that the marriage of humans requires any less care. But our leaders must be skilled managers of the State, as they will often need to use a bit of deception to create suitable pairings among the citizens. The good should be matched with the good, and the bad with the bad, with the offspring of the former being raised and the latter being disposed of; in this way, the community will be kept in optimal condition. Marriage festivals will be planned at specific times to encourage population growth, and the brides and grooms will meet there; through a clever system of lots, the leaders will ensure that the brave and attractive come together, while those of lesser quality are paired with others like them—those will believe it to be mere luck, but it will actually be the leaders' design. When children are born, the offspring of the brave and beautiful will be taken to a designated area in the city and cared for by appropriate nurses; the others will be swiftly taken away to unknown locations. The mothers will be brought to the communal area to nurse the children; however, care must be taken so that none recognize their own kids, and if necessary, additional nurses can be hired. The burden of monitoring and night duties will be passed on to attendants. “Then the wives of our guardians will have it pretty easy when they have children.” And rightly so, I said, they should.

The parents ought to be in the prime of life, which for a man may be reckoned at thirty years—from twenty-five, when he has ‘passed the point at which the speed of life is greatest,’ to fifty-five; and at twenty years for a woman—from twenty to forty. Any one above or below those ages who partakes in the hymeneals shall be guilty of impiety; also every one who forms a marriage connexion at other times without the consent of the rulers. This latter regulation applies to those who are within the specified ages, after which they may range at will, provided they avoid the prohibited degrees of parents and children, or of brothers and sisters, which last, however, are not absolutely prohibited, if a dispensation be procured. ‘But how shall we know the degrees of affinity, when all things are common?’ The answer is, that brothers and sisters are all such as are born seven or nine months after the espousals, and their parents those who are then espoused, and every one will have many children and every child many parents.

The parents should be in the prime of their lives, which for a man is around thirty years old—starting from twenty-five, when he has 'passed the point where the pace of life is fastest,’ until fifty-five; and for a woman, it's from twenty to forty. Anyone above or below these ages who gets married will be committing an act of disrespect; also, anyone who enters a marriage without the rulers' approval at other times. This rule applies to those within the specified ages; after that, they can marry freely, as long as they avoid prohibited relationships with parents and children, or siblings. The latter, however, aren't completely off-limits if a special permission is obtained. 'But how will we know the degrees of relationship when everything is shared?' The answer is that brothers and sisters are anyone born seven or nine months after the engagement, and their parents are those who are then engaged, and everyone will have many children, and every child will have many parents.

Socrates proceeds: I have now to prove that this scheme is advantageous and also consistent with our entire polity. The greatest good of a State is unity; the greatest evil, discord and distraction. And there will be unity where there are no private pleasures or pains or interests—where if one member suffers all the members suffer, if one citizen is touched all are quickly sensitive; and the least hurt to the little finger of the State runs through the whole body and vibrates to the soul. For the true State, like an individual, is injured as a whole when any part is affected. Every State has subjects and rulers, who in a democracy are called rulers, and in other States masters: but in our State they are called saviours and allies; and the subjects who in other States are termed slaves, are by us termed nurturers and paymasters, and those who are termed comrades and colleagues in other places, are by us called fathers and brothers. And whereas in other States members of the same government regard one of their colleagues as a friend and another as an enemy, in our State no man is a stranger to another; for every citizen is connected with every other by ties of blood, and these names and this way of speaking will have a corresponding reality—brother, father, sister, mother, repeated from infancy in the ears of children, will not be mere words. Then again the citizens will have all things in common, in having common property they will have common pleasures and pains.

Socrates continues: I now need to show that this plan is beneficial and aligns with our entire system. The greatest good for a State is unity; the greatest evil is discord and division. Unity exists where there are no individual pleasures, pains, or interests—where if one member suffers, all members suffer; if one citizen is affected, all become aware; and even the slightest injury to a small part of the State reverberates through the whole body and resonates with the soul. For a true State, like an individual, is harmed as a whole when any part is impacted. Every State has subjects and rulers, who in a democracy are called rulers, and in other States masters: but in our State, they are called saviors and allies; and the subjects who in other States are referred to as slaves, are by us seen as nurturers and paymasters, while those called comrades and colleagues elsewhere, are by us considered fathers and brothers. And while in other States, members of the same government may regard one colleague as a friend and another as an enemy, in our State, no one is a stranger to another; for every citizen shares a connection with every other through family ties, and these names and this way of speaking will reflect a real bond—brother, father, sister, mother, expressed from childhood in the ears of children, will not just be empty words. Moreover, the citizens will share everything in common; by having shared property, they will experience common joys and sorrows.

Can there be strife and contention among those who are of one mind; or lawsuits about property when men have nothing but their bodies which they call their own; or suits about violence when every one is bound to defend himself? The permission to strike when insulted will be an ‘antidote’ to the knife and will prevent disturbances in the State. But no younger man will strike an elder; reverence will prevent him from laying hands on his kindred, and he will fear that the rest of the family may retaliate. Moreover, our citizens will be rid of the lesser evils of life; there will be no flattery of the rich, no sordid household cares, no borrowing and not paying. Compared with the citizens of other States, ours will be Olympic victors, and crowned with blessings greater still—they and their children having a better maintenance during life, and after death an honourable burial. Nor has the happiness of the individual been sacrificed to the happiness of the State; our Olympic victor has not been turned into a cobbler, but he has a happiness beyond that of any cobbler. At the same time, if any conceited youth begins to dream of appropriating the State to himself, he must be reminded that ‘half is better than the whole.’ ‘I should certainly advise him to stay where he is when he has the promise of such a brave life.’

Can there be conflict and disagreement among people who share the same mindset? Or legal battles over property when men own nothing but their own bodies? Or disputes over violence when everyone is expected to defend themselves? The ability to retaliate against insults will act as a 'cure' for violence and will help maintain order in society. However, no young person will strike an elder; respect will stop him from harming his relatives, and he will worry about potential retaliation from the family. Additionally, our citizens will avoid the smaller misfortunes of life; there will be no flattery of the wealthy, no petty household worries, no borrowing without repayment. Compared to the citizens of other states, ours will be like Olympic champions, blessed even more—they and their children will have better lives and honorable burials after death. The happiness of individuals hasn’t been sacrificed for the State's happiness; our Olympic champion hasn’t been reduced to a cobbler, but instead enjoys a life that's more fulfilling than that of any cobbler. At the same time, if any arrogant young man starts dreaming of claiming the State for himself, he needs to be reminded that 'half is better than the whole.' 'I would definitely suggest he stay where he is, having the promise of such a noble life.'

But is such a community possible?—as among the animals, so also among men; and if possible, in what way possible? About war there is no difficulty; the principle of communism is adapted to military service. Parents will take their children to look on at a battle, just as potters’ boys are trained to the business by looking on at the wheel. And to the parents themselves, as to other animals, the sight of their young ones will prove a great incentive to bravery. Young warriors must learn, but they must not run into danger, although a certain degree of risk is worth incurring when the benefit is great. The young creatures should be placed under the care of experienced veterans, and they should have wings—that is to say, swift and tractable steeds on which they may fly away and escape. One of the first things to be done is to teach a youth to ride.

But is such a community possible?—just like among animals, can it happen among people? And if it is possible, how would it work? There’s no issue when it comes to war; the idea of communism fits well with military service. Parents will bring their children to watch a battle, just as potters' kids learn the trade by observing at the wheel. For the parents, just like other animals, seeing their young ones will boost their courage. Young warriors need to learn, but they shouldn’t rush into danger, although some risk is worth taking when the reward is significant. The young ones should be looked after by experienced veterans, and they should have a way to escape—meaning, they need fast and manageable horses to fly away if necessary. One of the first things to do is teach a young person how to ride.

Cowards and deserters shall be degraded to the class of husbandmen; gentlemen who allow themselves to be taken prisoners, may be presented to the enemy. But what shall be done to the hero? First of all he shall be crowned by all the youths in the army; secondly, he shall receive the right hand of fellowship; and thirdly, do you think that there is any harm in his being kissed? We have already determined that he shall have more wives than others, in order that he may have as many children as possible. And at a feast he shall have more to eat; we have the authority of Homer for honouring brave men with ‘long chines,’ which is an appropriate compliment, because meat is a very strengthening thing. Fill the bowl then, and give the best seats and meats to the brave—may they do them good! And he who dies in battle will be at once declared to be of the golden race, and will, as we believe, become one of Hesiod’s guardian angels. He shall be worshipped after death in the manner prescribed by the oracle; and not only he, but all other benefactors of the State who die in any other way, shall be admitted to the same honours.

Cowards and deserters will be reduced to the status of farmers; gentlemen who allow themselves to be captured may be handed over to the enemy. But what will happen to the hero? First, he will be celebrated by all the young soldiers in the army; second, he will receive a handshake of friendship; and third, do you think it’s wrong for him to be kissed? We've already decided he will have more wives than others so he can have as many children as possible. And at a feast, he will have more to eat; we have Homer’s endorsement for rewarding brave men with "long slices of meat," which is a fitting tribute since meat provides strength. So fill the bowl and give the best seats and food to the brave—may it do them good! And the one who dies in battle will immediately be declared part of the golden race and, as we believe, will become one of Hesiod’s guardian angels. He will be honored after death in accordance with the oracle’s instructions; and not just him, but all other benefactors of the State who die in other ways will receive the same honors.

The next question is, How shall we treat our enemies? Shall Hellenes be enslaved? No; for there is too great a risk of the whole race passing under the yoke of the barbarians. Or shall the dead be despoiled? Certainly not; for that sort of thing is an excuse for skulking, and has been the ruin of many an army. There is meanness and feminine malice in making an enemy of the dead body, when the soul which was the owner has fled—like a dog who cannot reach his assailants, and quarrels with the stones which are thrown at him instead. Again, the arms of Hellenes should not be offered up in the temples of the Gods; they are a pollution, for they are taken from brethren. And on similar grounds there should be a limit to the devastation of Hellenic territory—the houses should not be burnt, nor more than the annual produce carried off. For war is of two kinds, civil and foreign; the first of which is properly termed ‘discord,’ and only the second ‘war;’ and war between Hellenes is in reality civil war—a quarrel in a family, which is ever to be regarded as unpatriotic and unnatural, and ought to be prosecuted with a view to reconciliation in a true phil-Hellenic spirit, as of those who would chasten but not utterly enslave. The war is not against a whole nation who are a friendly multitude of men, women, and children, but only against a few guilty persons; when they are punished peace will be restored. That is the way in which Hellenes should war against one another—and against barbarians, as they war against one another now.

The next question is, how should we treat our enemies? Should Greeks be enslaved? No, because there's too great a risk of the entire race falling under the control of the barbarians. Should we rob the dead? Absolutely not, because that kind of behavior is just an excuse for hiding and has led to the downfall of many armies. It’s petty and cruel to turn against the body of a foe when the soul has already left—like a dog that can’t reach his attackers and instead fights back at the stones thrown at him. Also, the weapons of Greeks shouldn’t be offered in the temples of the gods; they’re tainted since they were taken from our brothers. Similarly, there should be limits on the destruction of Greek territory—houses shouldn’t be burned, and only the annual harvest should be taken. War comes in two forms: civil and foreign. The first is rightly called ‘discord,’ and the second is ‘war;’ and conflict between Greeks is actually a civil war—a family dispute—which should always be seen as unpatriotic and wrong, aimed at reconciliation in a true pro-Greek spirit, with the intent to discipline but not completely enslave. The conflict isn’t against an entire nation made up of friendly men, women, and children, but only against a few guilty individuals; peace will return once they are punished. That’s how Greeks should fight against each other—and how they should confront barbarians, just as they do when fighting among themselves now.

‘But, my dear Socrates, you are forgetting the main question: Is such a State possible? I grant all and more than you say about the blessedness of being one family—fathers, brothers, mothers, daughters, going out to war together; but I want to ascertain the possibility of this ideal State.’ You are too unmerciful. The first wave and the second wave I have hardly escaped, and now you will certainly drown me with the third. When you see the towering crest of the wave, I expect you to take pity. ‘Not a whit.’

‘But, my dear Socrates, you're missing the main question: Is such a state even possible? I accept everything you say about the joy of being one family—fathers, brothers, mothers, daughters, going out to fight together; but I really want to know if this ideal state can actually happen.’ You’re being too harsh. I’ve barely made it through the first and second waves, and now you’re definitely going to drown me with the third. When you see that huge wave coming, I hope you’ll show some mercy. ‘Not at all.’

Well, then, we were led to form our ideal polity in the search after justice, and the just man answered to the just State. Is this ideal at all the worse for being impracticable? Would the picture of a perfectly beautiful man be any the worse because no such man ever lived? Can any reality come up to the idea? Nature will not allow words to be fully realized; but if I am to try and realize the ideal of the State in a measure, I think that an approach may be made to the perfection of which I dream by one or two, I do not say slight, but possible changes in the present constitution of States. I would reduce them to a single one—the great wave, as I call it. Until, then, kings are philosophers, or philosophers are kings, cities will never cease from ill: no, nor the human race; nor will our ideal polity ever come into being. I know that this is a hard saying, which few will be able to receive. ‘Socrates, all the world will take off his coat and rush upon you with sticks and stones, and therefore I would advise you to prepare an answer.’ You got me into the scrape, I said. ‘And I was right,’ he replied; ‘however, I will stand by you as a sort of do-nothing, well-meaning ally.’ Having the help of such a champion, I will do my best to maintain my position. And first, I must explain of whom I speak and what sort of natures these are who are to be philosophers and rulers. As you are a man of pleasure, you will not have forgotten how indiscriminate lovers are in their attachments; they love all, and turn blemishes into beauties. The snub-nosed youth is said to have a winning grace; the beak of another has a royal look; the featureless are faultless; the dark are manly, the fair angels; the sickly have a new term of endearment invented expressly for them, which is ‘honey-pale.’ Lovers of wine and lovers of ambition also desire the objects of their affection in every form. Now here comes the point:—The philosopher too is a lover of knowledge in every form; he has an insatiable curiosity. ‘But will curiosity make a philosopher? Are the lovers of sights and sounds, who let out their ears to every chorus at the Dionysiac festivals, to be called philosophers?’ They are not true philosophers, but only an imitation. ‘Then how are we to describe the true?’

Well, we were led to create our ideal society in the search for justice, and the just person corresponds to the just State. Is this ideal any worse for being impractical? Would a depiction of a perfectly beautiful person be any less valuable because such a person never existed? Can any reality live up to the idea? Nature won't let words be fully realized, but if I'm going to try to make the ideal State somewhat real, I think we can get closer to the perfection I envision with one or two, not insignificant but achievable, changes in the current setup of States. I would condense them into one—what I call the great wave. Until kings are philosophers or philosophers are kings, cities will never be free from trouble, and neither will humanity; nor will our ideal society ever come into existence. I know this is a hard truth, which few will accept. ‘Socrates, everyone will take off their coat and come at you with sticks and stones, so I suggest you prepare a response.’ You got me into this mess, I said. ‘And I was right,’ he replied; ‘but I will support you as a kind of passive, well-meaning ally.’ With such support, I'll do my best to stick to my position. First, I need to explain who I'm talking about and what kind of people are meant to be philosophers and rulers. As someone who enjoys pleasure, you won't have forgotten how indiscriminate lovers are in their affections; they love everyone and turn flaws into beauties. The young man with a flat nose is said to have a winning charm; another with a beak looks regal; the featureless are perfect; the dark are manly, the fair are angelic; the sickly have a new term of endearment created just for them, which is 'honey-pale.' Lovers of wine and ambition also desire the objects of their affection in every form. Now here's the key point: the philosopher is also a lover of knowledge in every form; he has an insatiable curiosity. ‘But does curiosity make a philosopher? Are those who are captivated by sights and sounds, letting their ears feast on every performance at the Dionysiac festivals, to be called philosophers?’ They aren't true philosophers, but only imitators. ‘So how do we define the true ones?’

You would acknowledge the existence of abstract ideas, such as justice, beauty, good, evil, which are severally one, yet in their various combinations appear to be many. Those who recognize these realities are philosophers; whereas the other class hear sounds and see colours, and understand their use in the arts, but cannot attain to the true or waking vision of absolute justice or beauty or truth; they have not the light of knowledge, but of opinion, and what they see is a dream only. Perhaps he of whom we say the last will be angry with us; can we pacify him without revealing the disorder of his mind? Suppose we say that, if he has knowledge we rejoice to hear it, but knowledge must be of something which is, as ignorance is of something which is not; and there is a third thing, which both is and is not, and is matter of opinion only. Opinion and knowledge, then, having distinct objects, must also be distinct faculties. And by faculties I mean powers unseen and distinguishable only by the difference in their objects, as opinion and knowledge differ, since the one is liable to err, but the other is unerring and is the mightiest of all our faculties. If being is the object of knowledge, and not-being of ignorance, and these are the extremes, opinion must lie between them, and may be called darker than the one and brighter than the other. This intermediate or contingent matter is and is not at the same time, and partakes both of existence and of non-existence. Now I would ask my good friend, who denies abstract beauty and justice, and affirms a many beautiful and a many just, whether everything he sees is not in some point of view different—the beautiful ugly, the pious impious, the just unjust? Is not the double also the half, and are not heavy and light relative terms which pass into one another? Everything is and is not, as in the old riddle—‘A man and not a man shot and did not shoot a bird and not a bird with a stone and not a stone.’ The mind cannot be fixed on either alternative; and these ambiguous, intermediate, erring, half-lighted objects, which have a disorderly movement in the region between being and not-being, are the proper matter of opinion, as the immutable objects are the proper matter of knowledge. And he who grovels in the world of sense, and has only this uncertain perception of things, is not a philosopher, but a lover of opinion only...

You would recognize the existence of abstract concepts like justice, beauty, good, and evil, which are each one but appear to be many in their various combinations. Those who understand these truths are philosophers, while others just hear sounds and see colors and grasp their use in the arts, but they can’t reach the true or awakened understanding of absolute justice, beauty, or truth; they don’t have the light of knowledge, only opinion, and what they perceive is just a dream. Perhaps the one we’re talking about might be upset with us; can we calm him down without exposing the confusion in his mind? If we say that we’re glad to hear he has knowledge, we must clarify that knowledge must be about something that exists, while ignorance pertains to something that doesn’t; there’s also a middle ground, which both exists and doesn’t exist, and is simply a matter of opinion. Opinion and knowledge, having different subjects, must also be different faculties. By faculties, I mean powers that aren’t visible and can only be distinguished by the difference in their subjects, since opinion and knowledge differ—one can be mistaken, while the other is infallible and is the strongest of all our faculties. If being is the object of knowledge and not-being is the object of ignorance, and these are the extremes, then opinion must lie between them and can be seen as darker than one and brighter than the other. This intermediate or contingent matter exists and doesn’t exist at the same time, participating in both existence and non-existence. Now I would ask my good friend, who denies abstract beauty and justice and insists there are many beautiful and many just things, whether everything he sees is not, in some way, different—the beautiful can be ugly, the pious can be impious, the just can be unjust? Is the double not also the half, and aren’t heavy and light relative terms that overlap? Everything is and isn’t, like the old riddle—‘A man and not a man shot and didn’t shoot a bird and not a bird with a stone and not a stone.’ The mind can’t settle on either option; these ambiguous, intermediate, uncertain objects with disorderly movement between being and not-being are the true subject of opinion, while the unchanging objects are the true subject of knowledge. And someone who is lost in the world of senses and only has this uncertain perception of things isn’t a philosopher but merely a lover of opinion...

The fifth book is the new beginning of the Republic, in which the community of property and of family are first maintained, and the transition is made to the kingdom of philosophers. For both of these Plato, after his manner, has been preparing in some chance words of Book IV, which fall unperceived on the reader’s mind, as they are supposed at first to have fallen on the ear of Glaucon and Adeimantus. The ‘paradoxes,’ as Morgenstern terms them, of this book of the Republic will be reserved for another place; a few remarks on the style, and some explanations of difficulties, may be briefly added.

The fifth book marks a fresh start for the Republic, where the idea of shared property and family first takes shape, paving the way for the reign of philosophers. Plato, as usual, hints at this in a few casual remarks in Book IV, which might not immediately catch the reader's attention, just as they didn't resonate at first with Glaucon and Adeimantus. The 'paradoxes,' as Morgenstern calls them, in this book of the Republic will be discussed elsewhere; however, I will add some brief comments on the style and clarify a few of the challenges.

First, there is the image of the waves, which serves for a sort of scheme or plan of the book. The first wave, the second wave, the third and greatest wave come rolling in, and we hear the roar of them. All that can be said of the extravagance of Plato’s proposals is anticipated by himself. Nothing is more admirable than the hesitation with which he proposes the solemn text, ‘Until kings are philosophers,’ etc.; or the reaction from the sublime to the ridiculous, when Glaucon describes the manner in which the new truth will be received by mankind.

First, there's the image of the waves, which acts as a sort of outline for the book. The first wave, the second wave, and the third, largest wave come crashing in, and we hear their roar. Everything we can say about the extravagance of Plato’s ideas is anticipated by him. Nothing is more admirable than the way he hesitates when he presents the serious statement, 'Until kings are philosophers,' etc.; or the shift from the sublime to the ridiculous, when Glaucon explains how people will react to the new truth.

Some defects and difficulties may be noted in the execution of the communistic plan. Nothing is told us of the application of communism to the lower classes; nor is the table of prohibited degrees capable of being made out. It is quite possible that a child born at one hymeneal festival may marry one of its own brothers or sisters, or even one of its parents, at another. Plato is afraid of incestuous unions, but at the same time he does not wish to bring before us the fact that the city would be divided into families of those born seven and nine months after each hymeneal festival. If it were worth while to argue seriously about such fancies, we might remark that while all the old affinities are abolished, the newly prohibited affinity rests not on any natural or rational principle, but only upon the accident of children having been born in the same month and year. Nor does he explain how the lots could be so manipulated by the legislature as to bring together the fairest and best. The singular expression which is employed to describe the age of five-and-twenty may perhaps be taken from some poet.

Some issues and challenges can be observed in the implementation of the communist plan. There's no information about how communism applies to the lower classes, and the list of prohibited relationships isn’t clear. It’s entirely possible for a child born during one wedding celebration to marry a sibling or even a parent at a later celebration. Plato is concerned about incestuous relationships, yet he doesn't acknowledge that the city would end up divided into families of people born seven and nine months after each wedding event. If it were worthwhile to seriously discuss such ideas, we could point out that while all previous connections are eliminated, the new prohibitions are based on the random chance of children being born in the same month and year without any natural or logical reasoning. He also doesn’t clarify how the laws could be arranged to ensure that the best and most attractive individuals are paired together. The unusual term used to refer to the age of twenty-five might be borrowed from some poet.

In the delineation of the philosopher, the illustrations of the nature of philosophy derived from love are more suited to the apprehension of Glaucon, the Athenian man of pleasure, than to modern tastes or feelings. They are partly facetious, but also contain a germ of truth. That science is a whole, remains a true principle of inductive as well as of metaphysical philosophy; and the love of universal knowledge is still the characteristic of the philosopher in modern as well as in ancient times.

In defining the philosopher, the examples of the nature of philosophy based on love fit Glaucon, the pleasure-seeking Athenian, better than today’s tastes or feelings. They are somewhat humorous but also hold a kernel of truth. The idea that science is a whole remains a true principle in both inductive and metaphysical philosophy; the love of universal knowledge is still a defining trait of philosophers now just as it was in ancient times.

At the end of the fifth book Plato introduces the figment of contingent matter, which has exercised so great an influence both on the Ethics and Theology of the modern world, and which occurs here for the first time in the history of philosophy. He did not remark that the degrees of knowledge in the subject have nothing corresponding to them in the object. With him a word must answer to an idea; and he could not conceive of an opinion which was an opinion about nothing. The influence of analogy led him to invent ‘parallels and conjugates’ and to overlook facts. To us some of his difficulties are puzzling only from their simplicity: we do not perceive that the answer to them ‘is tumbling out at our feet.’ To the mind of early thinkers, the conception of not-being was dark and mysterious; they did not see that this terrible apparition which threatened destruction to all knowledge was only a logical determination. The common term under which, through the accidental use of language, two entirely different ideas were included was another source of confusion. Thus through the ambiguity of (Greek) Plato, attempting to introduce order into the first chaos of human thought, seems to have confused perception and opinion, and to have failed to distinguish the contingent from the relative. In the Theaetetus the first of these difficulties begins to clear up; in the Sophist the second; and for this, as well as for other reasons, both these dialogues are probably to be regarded as later than the Republic.

At the end of the fifth book, Plato introduces the idea of contingent matter, which has significantly influenced both modern Ethics and Theology, and this concept appears here for the first time in philosophical history. He didn’t realize that the different levels of knowledge in a subject don’t have a direct match in the object. For him, a word must relate to an idea, and he couldn’t imagine an opinion that is about nothing. The influence of analogy led him to create ‘parallels and conjugates’ and overlook certain facts. Some of his challenges seem puzzling to us simply because of their straightforwardness: we don’t recognize that the answers to them ‘are tumbling out at our feet.’ Early thinkers found the idea of non-being to be dark and mysterious; they didn’t understand that this alarming concept, which seemed to threaten all knowledge, was merely a logical definition. The common term that accidentally combined two completely different ideas due to language use added to the confusion. Thus, through the ambiguity of (Greek) Plato, who aimed to bring order to the initial chaos of human thought, it seems he mixed up perception and opinion and didn’t distinguish between the contingent and the relative. In the Theaetetus, the first of these challenges starts to become clearer; in the Sophist, the second one does. For this reason, as well as others, both these dialogues are likely to be considered later than the Republic.

BOOK VI. Having determined that the many have no knowledge of true being, and have no clear patterns in their minds of justice, beauty, truth, and that philosophers have such patterns, we have now to ask whether they or the many shall be rulers in our State. But who can doubt that philosophers should be chosen, if they have the other qualities which are required in a ruler? For they are lovers of the knowledge of the eternal and of all truth; they are haters of falsehood; their meaner desires are absorbed in the interests of knowledge; they are spectators of all time and all existence; and in the magnificence of their contemplation the life of man is as nothing to them, nor is death fearful. Also they are of a social, gracious disposition, equally free from cowardice and arrogance. They learn and remember easily; they have harmonious, well-regulated minds; truth flows to them sweetly by nature. Can the god of Jealousy himself find any fault with such an assemblage of good qualities?

BOOK VI. After realizing that most people have no understanding of true existence and lack clear ideas of justice, beauty, and truth, while philosophers possess these ideas, we must now consider whether philosophers or the masses should lead our State. But who can argue against choosing philosophers if they possess the other necessary qualities of a leader? They are passionate about the pursuit of eternal knowledge and truth; they despise falsehood; their lesser desires are consumed by the pursuit of knowledge; they observe all time and existence; and in the greatness of their contemplation, human life means very little to them, and death doesn’t scare them. Additionally, they are sociable and kind, being free from both cowardice and arrogance. They learn and remember with ease; they have balanced, well-ordered minds; truth naturally reaches them effortlessly. Can even the god of Jealousy find any faults in such a collection of admirable traits?

Here Adeimantus interposes:—‘No man can answer you, Socrates; but every man feels that this is owing to his own deficiency in argument. He is driven from one position to another, until he has nothing more to say, just as an unskilful player at draughts is reduced to his last move by a more skilled opponent. And yet all the time he may be right. He may know, in this very instance, that those who make philosophy the business of their lives, generally turn out rogues if they are bad men, and fools if they are good. What do you say?’ I should say that he is quite right. ‘Then how is such an admission reconcileable with the doctrine that philosophers should be kings?’

Here Adeimantus jumps in: “No one can really answer you, Socrates, but everyone senses that it’s because they lack strong arguments. They get pushed from one viewpoint to another until they have nothing left to say, just like a poor checkers player who runs out of moves against a more skilled opponent. But even then, they might still be right. They might realize, in this specific case, that those who dedicate their lives to philosophy often end up being dishonest if they’re bad people, or foolish if they’re good. What do you think?” I would say he’s completely right. “So how does this admission fit with the idea that philosophers should be rulers?”

I shall answer you in a parable which will also let you see how poor a hand I am at the invention of allegories. The relation of good men to their governments is so peculiar, that in order to defend them I must take an illustration from the world of fiction. Conceive the captain of a ship, taller by a head and shoulders than any of the crew, yet a little deaf, a little blind, and rather ignorant of the seaman’s art. The sailors want to steer, although they know nothing of the art; and they have a theory that it cannot be learned. If the helm is refused them, they drug the captain’s posset, bind him hand and foot, and take possession of the ship. He who joins in the mutiny is termed a good pilot and what not; they have no conception that the true pilot must observe the winds and the stars, and must be their master, whether they like it or not;—such an one would be called by them fool, prater, star-gazer. This is my parable; which I will beg you to interpret for me to those gentlemen who ask why the philosopher has such an evil name, and to explain to them that not he, but those who will not use him, are to blame for his uselessness. The philosopher should not beg of mankind to be put in authority over them. The wise man should not seek the rich, as the proverb bids, but every man, whether rich or poor, must knock at the door of the physician when he has need of him. Now the pilot is the philosopher—he whom in the parable they call star-gazer, and the mutinous sailors are the mob of politicians by whom he is rendered useless. Not that these are the worst enemies of philosophy, who is far more dishonoured by her own professing sons when they are corrupted by the world. Need I recall the original image of the philosopher? Did we not say of him just now, that he loved truth and hated falsehood, and that he could not rest in the multiplicity of phenomena, but was led by a sympathy in his own nature to the contemplation of the absolute? All the virtues as well as truth, who is the leader of them, took up their abode in his soul. But as you were observing, if we turn aside to view the reality, we see that the persons who were thus described, with the exception of a small and useless class, are utter rogues.

I'll respond with a story that shows just how bad I am at crafting allegories. The relationship between good people and their governments is so unique that to defend them, I need to use an example from fiction. Imagine a ship's captain, who is taller than any of the crew but also a bit deaf, somewhat blind, and not very knowledgeable about sailing. The sailors want to take control of the ship, even though they know nothing about how to navigate, and they believe it can't be learned. If they're denied the helm, they drug the captain’s drink, tie him up, and take over the ship. Those who join the rebellion are called great pilots and so on; they have no idea that the real pilot must understand the winds and stars and must lead them whether they like it or not—such a person would be labeled a fool, a chatterbox, or a star-gazer. This is my story; I ask you to explain it to those who wonder why philosophers are viewed negatively and help them understand that it’s not the philosophers but those who refuse to value them that are at fault for their ineffectiveness. Philosophers shouldn’t have to beg to be in charge. The wise should not seek out the wealthy, as the saying goes; rather, everyone, rich or poor, should reach out to the healer when in need. The pilot is the philosopher—what they call a star-gazer in the story, while the rebellious sailors represent the group of politicians who render him useless. Yet those politicians aren’t the worst enemies of philosophy; she's more dishonored by her own supposed followers when they become corrupted by the world. Should I remind you of the true philosopher? Didn't we just say that he loves truth and despises falsehood, and that he can’t be satisfied with just the variety of appearances, but is drawn by his own nature to seek the absolute? All virtues, along with truth—the leader of them—reside in his soul. But as you've noticed, if we look closely at reality, we see that those who match this description, with a few insignificant exceptions, are complete rogues.

The point which has to be considered, is the origin of this corruption in nature. Every one will admit that the philosopher, in our description of him, is a rare being. But what numberless causes tend to destroy these rare beings! There is no good thing which may not be a cause of evil—health, wealth, strength, rank, and the virtues themselves, when placed under unfavourable circumstances. For as in the animal or vegetable world the strongest seeds most need the accompaniment of good air and soil, so the best of human characters turn out the worst when they fall upon an unsuitable soil; whereas weak natures hardly ever do any considerable good or harm; they are not the stuff out of which either great criminals or great heroes are made. The philosopher follows the same analogy: he is either the best or the worst of all men. Some persons say that the Sophists are the corrupters of youth; but is not public opinion the real Sophist who is everywhere present—in those very persons, in the assembly, in the courts, in the camp, in the applauses and hisses of the theatre re-echoed by the surrounding hills? Will not a young man’s heart leap amid these discordant sounds? and will any education save him from being carried away by the torrent? Nor is this all. For if he will not yield to opinion, there follows the gentle compulsion of exile or death. What principle of rival Sophists or anybody else can overcome in such an unequal contest? Characters there may be more than human, who are exceptions—God may save a man, but not his own strength. Further, I would have you consider that the hireling Sophist only gives back to the world their own opinions; he is the keeper of the monster, who knows how to flatter or anger him, and observes the meaning of his inarticulate grunts. Good is what pleases him, evil what he dislikes; truth and beauty are determined only by the taste of the brute. Such is the Sophist’s wisdom, and such is the condition of those who make public opinion the test of truth, whether in art or in morals. The curse is laid upon them of being and doing what it approves, and when they attempt first principles the failure is ludicrous. Think of all this and ask yourself whether the world is more likely to be a believer in the unity of the idea, or in the multiplicity of phenomena. And the world if not a believer in the idea cannot be a philosopher, and must therefore be a persecutor of philosophers. There is another evil:—the world does not like to lose the gifted nature, and so they flatter the young (Alcibiades) into a magnificent opinion of his own capacity; the tall, proper youth begins to expand, and is dreaming of kingdoms and empires. If at this instant a friend whispers to him, ‘Now the gods lighten thee; thou art a great fool’ and must be educated—do you think that he will listen? Or suppose a better sort of man who is attracted towards philosophy, will they not make Herculean efforts to spoil and corrupt him? Are we not right in saying that the love of knowledge, no less than riches, may divert him? Men of this class (Critias) often become politicians—they are the authors of great mischief in states, and sometimes also of great good. And thus philosophy is deserted by her natural protectors, and others enter in and dishonour her. Vulgar little minds see the land open and rush from the prisons of the arts into her temple. A clever mechanic having a soul coarse as his body, thinks that he will gain caste by becoming her suitor. For philosophy, even in her fallen estate, has a dignity of her own—and he, like a bald little blacksmith’s apprentice as he is, having made some money and got out of durance, washes and dresses himself as a bridegroom and marries his master’s daughter. What will be the issue of such marriages? Will they not be vile and bastard, devoid of truth and nature? ‘They will.’ Small, then, is the remnant of genuine philosophers; there may be a few who are citizens of small states, in which politics are not worth thinking of, or who have been detained by Theages’ bridle of ill health; for my own case of the oracular sign is almost unique, and too rare to be worth mentioning. And these few when they have tasted the pleasures of philosophy, and have taken a look at that den of thieves and place of wild beasts, which is human life, will stand aside from the storm under the shelter of a wall, and try to preserve their own innocence and to depart in peace. ‘A great work, too, will have been accomplished by them.’ Great, yes, but not the greatest; for man is a social being, and can only attain his highest development in the society which is best suited to him.

The main point to consider is the source of this corruption in nature. Everyone will agree that the philosopher, as we've described him, is a rare figure. But think of the countless forces that threaten to destroy these rare individuals! There isn't anything good that couldn't lead to bad outcomes—health, wealth, strength, status, and even virtues themselves, when faced with negative circumstances. Just as the strongest seeds in the animal or plant kingdom require good air and soil, the best human characters can turn into the worst when they find themselves in unsuitable environments; meanwhile, weak natures rarely do any significant good or harm; they aren't the foundation for great criminals or great heroes. The philosopher follows this same pattern: he can be either the best or the worst of all people. Some argue that the Sophists corrupt the youth; but isn't public opinion the true Sophist that is always around—existing in those very individuals, in the assembly, in the courts, in the camp, and in the praises and criticisms echoed by the surrounding hills? Won't a young man’s heart race amid these conflicting sounds? And can any education really rescue him from being swept away by the tide? That's not all. If he refuses to conform to public opinion, he faces the soft pressure of exile or death. What principle from rival Sophists or anyone else could prevail in such an unfair match? There may be exceptional characters beyond the human realm—God might save a person, but not their own strength. Furthermore, consider that the hired Sophist merely reflects the world's own views back to it; he manages the beast, knowing how to flatter or provoke it, and understands the meaning of its inarticulate grunts. What the beast likes is deemed good, and what it dislikes is deemed evil; truth and beauty are defined solely by its tastes. This is the wisdom of the Sophist and the situation of those who make public opinion their standard of truth, whether in art or morality. They are cursed to be and do what it approves, and when they try to touch first principles, the result is often laughable. Reflect on this and ask yourself whether the world is more likely to believe in the unity of the idea or in the diversity of phenomena. If the world doesn't believe in the idea, it can't be philosophical and will therefore become a persecutor of philosophers. There's another problem: the world doesn't want to lose gifted individuals, so they flatter the young (like Alcibiades) into an inflated view of their own abilities; the tall, attractive youth begins to grow and dreams of kingdoms and empires. If at that moment a friend were to whisper to him, “Now the gods bless you; you’re a great fool and need education”—do you think he’d listen? Or if a more virtuous individual, drawn to philosophy, appears, won't they make tremendous efforts to spoil and corrupt him? Are we wrong to say that the pursuit of knowledge, just like the chase for riches, could lead him astray? Individuals from this group (like Critias) often become politicians—they can cause great harm in states, but also sometimes great good. Thus, philosophy is abandoned by its natural defenders, and others intrude and dishonor her. Small-minded individuals rush from the confines of the arts into her sanctuary. A clever mechanic, with a coarse soul matched to his rough appearance, believes he can elevate his status by courting philosophy. Even in her decline, philosophy holds her own dignity—yet he, like a small, bald blacksmith's apprentice, after making some money and getting out of confinement, cleans himself up as if he were a bridegroom marrying his master's daughter. What will the outcome of such unions be? Won't they be despicable and illegitimate, lacking truth and authenticity? “They definitely will.” Thus, very few genuine philosophers remain; there might be some who live in small states where politics aren't worth contemplating, or who have been held back by Theages' bit of ill health; for my personal experience of the prophetic sign is almost unique, too rare to even mention. These few, once they’ve experienced the delights of philosophy and glimpsed the den of thieves and wild beasts that is human life, will retreat from the chaos, seeking shelter behind a wall to maintain their innocence and withdraw in peace. “A significant achievement it will be for them.” Great, yes, but not the greatest; for man is a social creature, and he can only reach his highest potential within the optimal society for him.

Enough, then, of the causes why philosophy has such an evil name. Another question is, Which of existing states is suited to her? Not one of them; at present she is like some exotic seed which degenerates in a strange soil; only in her proper state will she be shown to be of heavenly growth. ‘And is her proper state ours or some other?’ Ours in all points but one, which was left undetermined. You may remember our saying that some living mind or witness of the legislator was needed in states. But we were afraid to enter upon a subject of such difficulty, and now the question recurs and has not grown easier:—How may philosophy be safely studied? Let us bring her into the light of day, and make an end of the inquiry.

Enough about why philosophy has such a bad reputation. Another question arises: Which of the current states is suitable for it? None of them; right now, it's like a rare seed that wilts in unfamiliar ground; only in its ideal environment will it thrive. "And is that ideal environment ours or something else?" It's ours in all respects except one, which was left unresolved. You might remember us mentioning that a living mind or the presence of the legislator is necessary in states. But we hesitated to tackle such a complex topic, and now the question comes back and hasn’t become any easier: How can philosophy be studied safely? Let’s bring it out into the open and wrap up this inquiry.

In the first place, I say boldly that nothing can be worse than the present mode of study. Persons usually pick up a little philosophy in early youth, and in the intervals of business, but they never master the real difficulty, which is dialectic. Later, perhaps, they occasionally go to a lecture on philosophy. Years advance, and the sun of philosophy, unlike that of Heracleitus, sets never to rise again. This order of education should be reversed; it should begin with gymnastics in youth, and as the man strengthens, he should increase the gymnastics of his soul. Then, when active life is over, let him finally return to philosophy. ‘You are in earnest, Socrates, but the world will be equally earnest in withstanding you—no more than Thrasymachus.’ Do not make a quarrel between Thrasymachus and me, who were never enemies and are now good friends enough. And I shall do my best to convince him and all mankind of the truth of my words, or at any rate to prepare for the future when, in another life, we may again take part in similar discussions. ‘That will be a long time hence.’ Not long in comparison with eternity. The many will probably remain incredulous, for they have never seen the natural unity of ideas, but only artificial juxtapositions; not free and generous thoughts, but tricks of controversy and quips of law;—a perfect man ruling in a perfect state, even a single one they have not known. And we foresaw that there was no chance of perfection either in states or individuals until a necessity was laid upon philosophers—not the rogues, but those whom we called the useless class—of holding office; or until the sons of kings were inspired with a true love of philosophy. Whether in the infinity of past time there has been, or is in some distant land, or ever will be hereafter, an ideal such as we have described, we stoutly maintain that there has been, is, and will be such a state whenever the Muse of philosophy rules. Will you say that the world is of another mind? O, my friend, do not revile the world! They will soon change their opinion if they are gently entreated, and are taught the true nature of the philosopher. Who can hate a man who loves him? Or be jealous of one who has no jealousy? Consider, again, that the many hate not the true but the false philosophers—the pretenders who force their way in without invitation, and are always speaking of persons and not of principles, which is unlike the spirit of philosophy. For the true philosopher despises earthly strife; his eye is fixed on the eternal order in accordance with which he moulds himself into the Divine image (and not himself only, but other men), and is the creator of the virtues private as well as public. When mankind see that the happiness of states is only to be found in that image, will they be angry with us for attempting to delineate it? ‘Certainly not. But what will be the process of delineation?’ The artist will do nothing until he has made a tabula rasa; on this he will inscribe the constitution of a state, glancing often at the divine truth of nature, and from that deriving the godlike among men, mingling the two elements, rubbing out and painting in, until there is a perfect harmony or fusion of the divine and human. But perhaps the world will doubt the existence of such an artist. What will they doubt? That the philosopher is a lover of truth, having a nature akin to the best?—and if they admit this will they still quarrel with us for making philosophers our kings? ‘They will be less disposed to quarrel.’ Let us assume then that they are pacified. Still, a person may hesitate about the probability of the son of a king being a philosopher. And we do not deny that they are very liable to be corrupted; but yet surely in the course of ages there might be one exception—and one is enough. If one son of a king were a philosopher, and had obedient citizens, he might bring the ideal polity into being. Hence we conclude that our laws are not only the best, but that they are also possible, though not free from difficulty.

First of all, I assert boldly that nothing could be worse than the current way of studying. People tend to pick up a bit of philosophy in their youth, fitting it in between their other activities, but they never fully grasp the real challenge, which is dialectic. Later on, they might occasionally attend a philosophy lecture. Time passes, and the light of philosophy, unlike that of Heraclitus, sets never to rise again. This educational approach should be flipped; it should start with physical training in youth, and as a person grows, they should deepen their soul's workout. Then, when they finish their active life, they can finally return to philosophy. 'You are sincere, Socrates, but the world will equally resist you—no more than Thrasymachus.' Don’t pit me against Thrasymachus, who was never my enemy and is now a good friend. I will do my best to convince him and everyone else of my truth, or at least prepare for the future when, in another life, we might engage in similar discussions again. 'That will be a long time from now.' Not long compared to eternity. Many will probably remain skeptical, as they have never perceived the natural connection of ideas, only artificial pairings; not free and generous thoughts, but clever arguments and legal quips;—they have not known a perfect person ruling in a perfect state, not even one. We foresaw that there was no possibility of perfection in states or individuals until philosophers—those who aren’t fraudulent, but those we called the useless class—were forced to take on roles of authority; or until royal heirs were inspired with a genuine love for philosophy. Whether in the infinite past, in some distant place, or in the future, we firmly believe that an ideal such as we described has existed, exists, and will continue to exist whenever the Muse of philosophy is in charge. Will you argue that the world thinks differently? Oh, my friend, do not scorn the world! They will quickly change their minds if treated kindly and taught the true essence of a philosopher. Who can despise someone who loves them? Or envy someone who feels no envy? Also, remember that the many do not hate the genuine but the false philosophers—those impostors who intrude uninvited, always talking about people instead of principles, which goes against the spirit of philosophy. The true philosopher disregards worldly struggles; their focus is on the eternal order, which is how they shape themselves—and not just themselves, but others as well—into a divine image, and are the creators of virtues both private and public. Once humanity sees that the happiness of states can only be found in that image, will they be angry at us for trying to depict it? 'Certainly not. But how will we depict it?' The artist will do nothing until they have created a tabula rasa; on this, they will write the constitution of a state, frequently referencing the divine truth of nature, and from this, derive the godlike qualities in men, blending the two elements, erasing and painting until there is perfect harmony or integration of the divine and the human. But perhaps the world will doubt such an artist’s existence. What will they doubt? That a philosopher loves truth and has a nature similar to the best?—and if they accept this, will they still argue with us about making philosophers our rulers? 'They will be less inclined to argue.' Let's assume they are calmed down. Still, someone may hesitate about the likelihood of a king's son being a philosopher. And we do not deny that they are very prone to corruption; but surely over the ages, there might be one exception—and one is enough. If just one king's son were a philosopher and had obedient citizens, he could establish the ideal government. Therefore, we conclude that our laws are not only the best, but also feasible, though not without challenges.

I gained nothing by evading the troublesome questions which arose concerning women and children. I will be wiser now and acknowledge that we must go to the bottom of another question: What is to be the education of our guardians? It was agreed that they were to be lovers of their country, and were to be tested in the refiner’s fire of pleasures and pains, and those who came forth pure and remained fixed in their principles were to have honours and rewards in life and after death. But at this point, the argument put on her veil and turned into another path. I hesitated to make the assertion which I now hazard,—that our guardians must be philosophers. You remember all the contradictory elements, which met in the philosopher—how difficult to find them all in a single person! Intelligence and spirit are not often combined with steadiness; the stolid, fearless, nature is averse to intellectual toil. And yet these opposite elements are all necessary, and therefore, as we were saying before, the aspirant must be tested in pleasures and dangers; and also, as we must now further add, in the highest branches of knowledge. You will remember, that when we spoke of the virtues mention was made of a longer road, which you were satisfied to leave unexplored. ‘Enough seemed to have been said.’ Enough, my friend; but what is enough while anything remains wanting? Of all men the guardian must not faint in the search after truth; he must be prepared to take the longer road, or he will never reach that higher region which is above the four virtues; and of the virtues too he must not only get an outline, but a clear and distinct vision. (Strange that we should be so precise about trifles, so careless about the highest truths!) ‘And what are the highest?’ You to pretend unconsciousness, when you have so often heard me speak of the idea of good, about which we know so little, and without which though a man gain the world he has no profit of it! Some people imagine that the good is wisdom; but this involves a circle,—the good, they say, is wisdom, wisdom has to do with the good. According to others the good is pleasure; but then comes the absurdity that good is bad, for there are bad pleasures as well as good. Again, the good must have reality; a man may desire the appearance of virtue, but he will not desire the appearance of good. Ought our guardians then to be ignorant of this supreme principle, of which every man has a presentiment, and without which no man has any real knowledge of anything? ‘But, Socrates, what is this supreme principle, knowledge or pleasure, or what? You may think me troublesome, but I say that you have no business to be always repeating the doctrines of others instead of giving us your own.’ Can I say what I do not know? ‘You may offer an opinion.’ And will the blindness and crookedness of opinion content you when you might have the light and certainty of science? ‘I will only ask you to give such an explanation of the good as you have given already of temperance and justice.’ I wish that I could, but in my present mood I cannot reach to the height of the knowledge of the good. To the parent or principal I cannot introduce you, but to the child begotten in his image, which I may compare with the interest on the principal, I will. (Audit the account, and do not let me give you a false statement of the debt.) You remember our old distinction of the many beautiful and the one beautiful, the particular and the universal, the objects of sight and the objects of thought? Did you ever consider that the objects of sight imply a faculty of sight which is the most complex and costly of our senses, requiring not only objects of sense, but also a medium, which is light; without which the sight will not distinguish between colours and all will be a blank? For light is the noble bond between the perceiving faculty and the thing perceived, and the god who gives us light is the sun, who is the eye of the day, but is not to be confounded with the eye of man. This eye of the day or sun is what I call the child of the good, standing in the same relation to the visible world as the good to the intellectual. When the sun shines the eye sees, and in the intellectual world where truth is, there is sight and light. Now that which is the sun of intelligent natures, is the idea of good, the cause of knowledge and truth, yet other and fairer than they are, and standing in the same relation to them in which the sun stands to light. O inconceivable height of beauty, which is above knowledge and above truth! (‘You cannot surely mean pleasure,’ he said. Peace, I replied.) And this idea of good, like the sun, is also the cause of growth, and the author not of knowledge only, but of being, yet greater far than either in dignity and power. ‘That is a reach of thought more than human; but, pray, go on with the image, for I suspect that there is more behind.’ There is, I said; and bearing in mind our two suns or principles, imagine further their corresponding worlds—one of the visible, the other of the intelligible; you may assist your fancy by figuring the distinction under the image of a line divided into two unequal parts, and may again subdivide each part into two lesser segments representative of the stages of knowledge in either sphere. The lower portion of the lower or visible sphere will consist of shadows and reflections, and its upper and smaller portion will contain real objects in the world of nature or of art. The sphere of the intelligible will also have two divisions,—one of mathematics, in which there is no ascent but all is descent; no inquiring into premises, but only drawing of inferences. In this division the mind works with figures and numbers, the images of which are taken not from the shadows, but from the objects, although the truth of them is seen only with the mind’s eye; and they are used as hypotheses without being analysed. Whereas in the other division reason uses the hypotheses as stages or steps in the ascent to the idea of good, to which she fastens them, and then again descends, walking firmly in the region of ideas, and of ideas only, in her ascent as well as descent, and finally resting in them. ‘I partly understand,’ he replied; ‘you mean that the ideas of science are superior to the hypothetical, metaphorical conceptions of geometry and the other arts or sciences, whichever is to be the name of them; and the latter conceptions you refuse to make subjects of pure intellect, because they have no first principle, although when resting on a first principle, they pass into the higher sphere.’ You understand me very well, I said. And now to those four divisions of knowledge you may assign four corresponding faculties—pure intelligence to the highest sphere; active intelligence to the second; to the third, faith; to the fourth, the perception of shadows—and the clearness of the several faculties will be in the same ratio as the truth of the objects to which they are related...

I gained nothing by dodging the difficult questions about women and children. I’ll be smarter now and admit that we need to address another question: What kind of education should our guardians have? We agreed that they should be lovers of their country, and that they should be tested in the trials of pleasure and pain. Those who emerge untainted and stay true to their principles should receive honors and rewards in life and after death. But at this point, the discussion shifted gears. I hesitated to state what I’m about to propose—that our guardians need to be philosophers. Remember the conflicts within the philosopher—how hard it is to find all those qualities in one person! Brains and spirit don’t often go hand in hand with steadiness; the tough and fearless types tend to shy away from intellectual effort. Still, these contrasting qualities are all essential, so as we discussed earlier, the aspirant must be tested through pleasures and dangers; and we now need to add that they should also be tested in the highest knowledge. You’ll recall that when we talked about virtues, I mentioned a longer path that you were okay with leaving unexplored. "Enough has been said." Enough, my friend; but what is enough when there’s still something missing? Of all people, the guardian must not falter in the pursuit of truth; they must be ready to take the longer journey, or they will never reach that higher place above the four virtues. Furthermore, they need more than just an overview of the virtues; they need a clear and distinct vision. (Isn’t it strange that we focus so precisely on minor details while being so careless about the highest truths?) “And what are the highest?” You pretend not to know when you've often heard me talk about the idea of good, which we understand so little, and without which a man might gain the world but profit nothing from it! Some think that good is wisdom; but that leads to a circle—good equals wisdom, and wisdom relates to good. Others say good is pleasure; but then we arrive at the contradiction that good can also be bad, since there are bad pleasures too. Moreover, good must have reality; a person might want the appearance of virtue, but nobody wants merely the appearance of good. Should our guardians then be unaware of this supreme principle, which every man has an instinct for, and without which no one can truly know anything? "But, Socrates, what is this supreme principle? Is it knowledge, pleasure, or something else?" You may think I'm being difficult, but I believe it's not right for you to keep repeating others' ideas instead of sharing your own. Can I express what I don't know? "You can share an opinion." And will the confusion of opinions satisfy you when you could have the clarity and certainty of true knowledge? "I only ask that you explain the good as you did with temperance and justice." I wish I could, but right now, I can’t grasp the height of the knowledge of the good. I can’t introduce you to the parent or principal, but I can introduce you to the child that resembles it, which I can compare to interest on the principal. (Check the account, and don’t let me provide false information on the debt.) You remember our old distinction between the many beautiful and the one beautiful, the particular and the universal, the objects we see and the concepts we think about? Have you ever considered that the objects we see require the complex and precious sense of sight, needing not just sensory objects but also a medium, which is light? Without light, sight can’t distinguish colors, and everything becomes a blur. Light serves as the noble link between our perception and the perceived object, and the source of light is the sun, the eye of the day, though it's not the same as the human eye. This sun, or eye of the day, is what I call the child of the good, relating to the visible world as the good relates to the intellectual. When the sun shines, our eyes see, and in the realm of intellect, where truth resides, there is sight and light. What illuminates intelligent beings is the idea of good, the source of knowledge and truth, yet it is more beautiful and sits above them, much like the sun does to light. O unfathomable beauty that transcends both knowledge and truth! (“You can’t possibly mean pleasure,” he said. “Hold on,” I replied.) And just like the sun, this idea of good is also the source of growth and not just knowledge but existence, far greater than either in dignity and power. “That’s a thought beyond human reach; but please, continue with the metaphor, for I suspect there’s more to uncover.” Indeed, I said; and keeping in mind our two suns or principles, imagine their corresponding worlds—the visible and the intelligible. You can help your imagination by picturing a line split into two unequal parts, further dividing each part into smaller segments that represent stages of knowledge in both spheres. The lower part of the lower visible sphere consists of shadows and reflections, while its upper, smaller part contains real objects from nature or art. The intelligible sphere also has two divisions—one for mathematics, in which there is no climbing but only descending; no questioning the premises, just making inferences. In this division, the mind works with figures and numbers, whose images come not from shadows but from real objects, although their truth is only perceived with the mind's eye, and they are used as hypotheses without analysis. In the other division, reason uses those hypotheses as steps to ascend to the idea of good, which it attaches to them, before descending again, securely navigating the realm of ideas up and down, finally resting in them. “I partly understand,” he responded; “you mean that the ideas of science are superior to the hypothetical, metaphorical ideas of geometry and other arts or sciences, whatever we choose to call them; and you don’t consider those latter ideas pure intellect because they lack a first principle, even though resting on a first principle, they elevate into the higher realm.” You understand me quite well, I said. And now, to those four divisions of knowledge, you can assign four corresponding faculties—pure intelligence for the highest realm; active intelligence for the second; faith for the third; and perception of shadows for the fourth—and the clarity of each faculty will be proportional to the truth of the objects they correspond to...

Like Socrates, we may recapitulate the virtues of the philosopher. In language which seems to reach beyond the horizon of that age and country, he is described as ‘the spectator of all time and all existence.’ He has the noblest gifts of nature, and makes the highest use of them. All his desires are absorbed in the love of wisdom, which is the love of truth. None of the graces of a beautiful soul are wanting in him; neither can he fear death, or think much of human life. The ideal of modern times hardly retains the simplicity of the antique; there is not the same originality either in truth or error which characterized the Greeks. The philosopher is no longer living in the unseen, nor is he sent by an oracle to convince mankind of ignorance; nor does he regard knowledge as a system of ideas leading upwards by regular stages to the idea of good. The eagerness of the pursuit has abated; there is more division of labour and less of comprehensive reflection upon nature and human life as a whole; more of exact observation and less of anticipation and inspiration. Still, in the altered conditions of knowledge, the parallel is not wholly lost; and there may be a use in translating the conception of Plato into the language of our own age. The philosopher in modern times is one who fixes his mind on the laws of nature in their sequence and connexion, not on fragments or pictures of nature; on history, not on controversy; on the truths which are acknowledged by the few, not on the opinions of the many. He is aware of the importance of ‘classifying according to nature,’ and will try to ‘separate the limbs of science without breaking them’ (Phaedr.). There is no part of truth, whether great or small, which he will dishonour; and in the least things he will discern the greatest (Parmen.). Like the ancient philosopher he sees the world pervaded by analogies, but he can also tell ‘why in some cases a single instance is sufficient for an induction’ (Mill’s Logic), while in other cases a thousand examples would prove nothing. He inquires into a portion of knowledge only, because the whole has grown too vast to be embraced by a single mind or life. He has a clearer conception of the divisions of science and of their relation to the mind of man than was possible to the ancients. Like Plato, he has a vision of the unity of knowledge, not as the beginning of philosophy to be attained by a study of elementary mathematics, but as the far-off result of the working of many minds in many ages. He is aware that mathematical studies are preliminary to almost every other; at the same time, he will not reduce all varieties of knowledge to the type of mathematics. He too must have a nobility of character, without which genius loses the better half of greatness. Regarding the world as a point in immensity, and each individual as a link in a never-ending chain of existence, he will not think much of his own life, or be greatly afraid of death.

Like Socrates, we can revisit the qualities of the philosopher. In language that seems to reach beyond the limits of his time and place, he is described as ‘the observer of all time and all existence.’ He possesses the greatest natural gifts and uses them to the fullest. All his desires are focused on the love of wisdom, which is the love of truth. He embodies all the graces of a beautiful soul; he does not fear death nor overly value human life. The ideal of modern times lacks the simplicity of the past; there is less originality in both truth and error than what characterized the Greeks. The philosopher no longer exists in the abstract, nor is he sent by an oracle to enlighten humanity about ignorance; he does not view knowledge as a structured system of ideas that leads gradually to the idea of good. The fervor of the quest has waned; there is more specialized focus and less holistic reflection on nature and human life as a whole; more precise observation and less anticipation and inspiration. Still, amid these changes in knowledge, the parallel is not entirely lost; and it may be useful to translate Plato's concepts into the language of our time. The modern philosopher is one who concentrates on the laws of nature in their order and connection, not on fragments or images of nature; on history, not on disputes; on truths acknowledged by the few, rather than on the opinions of the many. He understands the importance of ‘classifying according to nature’ and will try to ‘separate the limbs of science without breaking them’ (Phaedr.). He respects every part of truth, whether big or small, and sees the greatest truths in even the smallest aspects (Parmen.). Like the ancient philosopher, he perceives the world filled with analogies, but he can also explain ‘why in some cases a single instance is sufficient for an induction’ (Mill’s Logic), while in other cases thousands of examples might mean nothing. He explores only a part of knowledge, as the entirety has become too vast for a single mind or life to grasp. He has a clearer understanding of the branches of science and their relationship to the human mind than what was possible for the ancients. Like Plato, he envisions the unity of knowledge, not as the starting point of philosophy achieved through elementary mathematics, but as the distant result of the efforts of many minds across many ages. He acknowledges that mathematical studies are foundational for almost all other disciplines; however, he will not simplify all forms of knowledge into the mold of mathematics. He must also possess a nobility of character, without which genius loses much of its greatness. Viewing the world as a small point in an endless expanse, and each individual as a link in an everlasting chain of existence, he does not place much value on his own life nor fears death significantly.

Adeimantus objects first of all to the form of the Socratic reasoning, thus showing that Plato is aware of the imperfection of his own method. He brings the accusation against himself which might be brought against him by a modern logician—that he extracts the answer because he knows how to put the question. In a long argument words are apt to change their meaning slightly, or premises may be assumed or conclusions inferred with rather too much certainty or universality; the variation at each step may be unobserved, and yet at last the divergence becomes considerable. Hence the failure of attempts to apply arithmetical or algebraic formulae to logic. The imperfection, or rather the higher and more elastic nature of language, does not allow words to have the precision of numbers or of symbols. And this quality in language impairs the force of an argument which has many steps.

Adeimantus first challenges the way Socratic reasoning is presented, showing that Plato recognizes the flaws in his own approach. He makes the self-critique that a modern logician might level against him—that he arrives at answers because he's skilled at asking the right questions. In a lengthy discussion, words can subtly shift in meaning, or assumptions may be made, and conclusions drawn with too much certainty or universality; the changes at each stage can go unnoticed, but eventually, the differences can become significant. This is why attempts to apply arithmetic or algebraic formulas to logic often fail. The imperfection, or rather the more flexible and nuanced nature of language, means that words can't achieve the same precision as numbers or symbols. This characteristic of language undermines the strength of arguments that involve many steps.

The objection, though fairly met by Socrates in this particular instance, may be regarded as implying a reflection upon the Socratic mode of reasoning. And here, as elsewhere, Plato seems to intimate that the time had come when the negative and interrogative method of Socrates must be superseded by a positive and constructive one, of which examples are given in some of the later dialogues. Adeimantus further argues that the ideal is wholly at variance with facts; for experience proves philosophers to be either useless or rogues. Contrary to all expectation Socrates has no hesitation in admitting the truth of this, and explains the anomaly in an allegory, first characteristically depreciating his own inventive powers. In this allegory the people are distinguished from the professional politicians, and, as elsewhere, are spoken of in a tone of pity rather than of censure under the image of ‘the noble captain who is not very quick in his perceptions.’

The objection, while adequately addressed by Socrates in this instance, can be seen as a critique of the Socratic way of reasoning. Here, as in other places, Plato suggests that the time has come for Socrates’ negative and questioning approach to be replaced by a more positive and constructive one, which is shown in some of the later dialogues. Adeimantus further argues that the ideal is completely at odds with reality; experience shows that philosophers are either ineffective or deceitful. Surprisingly, Socrates readily acknowledges this truth and explains the contradiction through an allegory, first modestly downplaying his own creative abilities. In this allegory, the general public is contrasted with professional politicians and is discussed with a sense of pity rather than criticism, depicted as "the noble captain who isn’t very quick to understand."

The uselessness of philosophers is explained by the circumstance that mankind will not use them. The world in all ages has been divided between contempt and fear of those who employ the power of ideas and know no other weapons. Concerning the false philosopher, Socrates argues that the best is most liable to corruption; and that the finer nature is more likely to suffer from alien conditions. We too observe that there are some kinds of excellence which spring from a peculiar delicacy of constitution; as is evidently true of the poetical and imaginative temperament, which often seems to depend on impressions, and hence can only breathe or live in a certain atmosphere. The man of genius has greater pains and greater pleasures, greater powers and greater weaknesses, and often a greater play of character than is to be found in ordinary men. He can assume the disguise of virtue or disinterestedness without having them, or veil personal enmity in the language of patriotism and philosophy,—he can say the word which all men are thinking, he has an insight which is terrible into the follies and weaknesses of his fellow-men. An Alcibiades, a Mirabeau, or a Napoleon the First, are born either to be the authors of great evils in states, or ‘of great good, when they are drawn in that direction.’

The uselessness of philosophers comes from the fact that people won’t use them. Throughout history, society has always been split between contempt and fear of those who wield the power of ideas and have no other tools. Regarding the false philosopher, Socrates argues that the best are most prone to corruption; and that a finer nature is more likely to be affected by outside influences. We also see that some types of excellence arise from a unique sensitivity; this is clearly true of the poetical and imaginative temperament, which often seems reliant on its surroundings and can only thrive in a specific atmosphere. A person of genius experiences greater pains and pleasures, has greater abilities and vulnerabilities, and often displays a wider character range than ordinary people. They can pretend to be virtuous or selfless without genuinely being so, or mask personal grudges with claims of patriotism and philosophy—they can articulate what everyone is thinking and possess a chilling insight into the follies and weaknesses of others. Figures like Alcibiades, Mirabeau, or Napoleon the First are either destined to be the cause of significant harm to societies or to ‘accomplish great good when guided in that direction.’

Yet the thesis, ‘corruptio optimi pessima,’ cannot be maintained generally or without regard to the kind of excellence which is corrupted. The alien conditions which are corrupting to one nature, may be the elements of culture to another. In general a man can only receive his highest development in a congenial state or family, among friends or fellow-workers. But also he may sometimes be stirred by adverse circumstances to such a degree that he rises up against them and reforms them. And while weaker or coarser characters will extract good out of evil, say in a corrupt state of the church or of society, and live on happily, allowing the evil to remain, the finer or stronger natures may be crushed or spoiled by surrounding influences—may become misanthrope and philanthrope by turns; or in a few instances, like the founders of the monastic orders, or the Reformers, owing to some peculiarity in themselves or in their age, may break away entirely from the world and from the church, sometimes into great good, sometimes into great evil, sometimes into both. And the same holds in the lesser sphere of a convent, a school, a family.

Yet the idea that "the corruption of the best is the worst" can't be applied universally or without considering the type of excellence that’s being corrupted. What is damaging to one person might actually foster growth in another. Generally, a person can achieve their fullest potential only in a supportive environment, surrounded by friends or colleagues. However, there are times when adverse situations can motivate someone to stand up against those challenges and seek reform. Weaker or coarser individuals might manage to find some good in a corrupt church or society and live contentedly, letting the corruption persist. In contrast, stronger or finer individuals may be overwhelmed or damaged by their surroundings, swinging between being misanthropic and philanthropic. In some cases, like with the founders of monastic orders or Reformers, unique aspects of their character or the times they lived in may inspire them to completely break away from the world and the church, leading to varying outcomes—sometimes positive, sometimes negative, and occasionally both. The same dynamics apply in smaller settings like a convent, school, or family.

Plato would have us consider how easily the best natures are overpowered by public opinion, and what efforts the rest of mankind will make to get possession of them. The world, the church, their own profession, any political or party organization, are always carrying them off their legs and teaching them to apply high and holy names to their own prejudices and interests. The ‘monster’ corporation to which they belong judges right and truth to be the pleasure of the community. The individual becomes one with his order; or, if he resists, the world is too much for him, and will sooner or later be revenged on him. This is, perhaps, a one-sided but not wholly untrue picture of the maxims and practice of mankind when they ‘sit down together at an assembly,’ either in ancient or modern times.

Plato prompts us to think about how easily the best people can be swayed by public opinion and the lengths others will go to gain their influence. Society, the church, their careers, any political or party group constantly pull them away from their principles and encourage them to use noble ideas to back their own biases and interests. The large corporations they’re part of define right and wrong based on what benefits the community. The individual merges with their group, and if they push back, life will eventually retaliate against them. This is, perhaps, a biased but not entirely false portrayal of human behavior when people “gather together in an assembly,” whether in ancient times or today.

When the higher natures are corrupted by politics, the lower take possession of the vacant place of philosophy. This is described in one of those continuous images in which the argument, to use a Platonic expression, ‘veils herself,’ and which is dropped and reappears at intervals. The question is asked,—Why are the citizens of states so hostile to philosophy? The answer is, that they do not know her. And yet there is also a better mind of the many; they would believe if they were taught. But hitherto they have only known a conventional imitation of philosophy, words without thoughts, systems which have no life in them; a (divine) person uttering the words of beauty and freedom, the friend of man holding communion with the Eternal, and seeking to frame the state in that image, they have never known. The same double feeling respecting the mass of mankind has always existed among men. The first thought is that the people are the enemies of truth and right; the second, that this only arises out of an accidental error and confusion, and that they do not really hate those who love them, if they could be educated to know them.

When the higher aspects of life are tainted by politics, the lower ones fill the empty space where philosophy should be. This is illustrated through recurring images that, as Plato might say, "hide" the argument, coming and going at intervals. The question arises—why are citizens so resistant to philosophy? The answer is that they simply don't understand it. However, there is also a better side to many; they would believe if they were properly taught. So far, they have only encountered a shallow imitation of philosophy—words without meaning, systems that lack vitality; they've never experienced a (divine) individual who speaks words of beauty and freedom, someone genuinely connected with humanity and the Eternal, trying to shape society in that ideal. This mixed perspective on the masses has always been present among people. The first instinct is to view the public as adversaries of truth and justice; the second is to recognize that this hostility stems from mere misunderstanding and confusion, and that they don’t truly oppose those who care for them, if only they could be taught to recognize them.

In the latter part of the sixth book, three questions have to be considered: 1st, the nature of the longer and more circuitous way, which is contrasted with the shorter and more imperfect method of Book IV; 2nd, the heavenly pattern or idea of the state; 3rd, the relation of the divisions of knowledge to one another and to the corresponding faculties of the soul:

In the later part of the sixth book, three questions need to be addressed: 1st, the nature of the longer and more complex path, which is compared to the shorter and less complete method discussed in Book IV; 2nd, the ideal or heavenly model of the state; 3rd, the relationship among the different branches of knowledge and how they connect to the corresponding abilities of the soul:

1. Of the higher method of knowledge in Plato we have only a glimpse. Neither here nor in the Phaedrus or Symposium, nor yet in the Philebus or Sophist, does he give any clear explanation of his meaning. He would probably have described his method as proceeding by regular steps to a system of universal knowledge, which inferred the parts from the whole rather than the whole from the parts. This ideal logic is not practised by him in the search after justice, or in the analysis of the parts of the soul; there, like Aristotle in the Nicomachean Ethics, he argues from experience and the common use of language. But at the end of the sixth book he conceives another and more perfect method, in which all ideas are only steps or grades or moments of thought, forming a connected whole which is self-supporting, and in which consistency is the test of truth. He does not explain to us in detail the nature of the process. Like many other thinkers both in ancient and modern times his mind seems to be filled with a vacant form which he is unable to realize. He supposes the sciences to have a natural order and connexion in an age when they can hardly be said to exist. He is hastening on to the ‘end of the intellectual world’ without even making a beginning of them.

1. We only get a glimpse of Plato's higher method of knowledge. In none of his works, including the Phaedrus, Symposium, Philebus, or Sophist, does he provide a clear explanation of what he means. He likely would have described his method as moving through regular steps toward a system of universal knowledge that infers the parts from the whole rather than the other way around. However, he doesn't actually practice this ideal logic when searching for justice or analyzing the parts of the soul; there, like Aristotle in the Nicomachean Ethics, he relies on experience and common language usage. Toward the end of the sixth book, he imagines a different, more perfect method where all ideas are just steps or stages of thought that create a connected whole, which is self-sustaining, with consistency being the measure of truth. He doesn’t go into detail about this process. Like many thinkers from both ancient and modern times, he seems to be filled with a vague idea that he can't fully grasp. He believes that the sciences have a natural order and connection at a time when they hardly exist. He is rushing toward the "end of the intellectual world" without even starting.

In modern times we hardly need to be reminded that the process of acquiring knowledge is here confused with the contemplation of absolute knowledge. In all science a priori and a posteriori truths mingle in various proportions. The a priori part is that which is derived from the most universal experience of men, or is universally accepted by them; the a posteriori is that which grows up around the more general principles and becomes imperceptibly one with them. But Plato erroneously imagines that the synthesis is separable from the analysis, and that the method of science can anticipate science. In entertaining such a vision of a priori knowledge he is sufficiently justified, or at least his meaning may be sufficiently explained by the similar attempts of Descartes, Kant, Hegel, and even of Bacon himself, in modern philosophy. Anticipations or divinations, or prophetic glimpses of truths whether concerning man or nature, seem to stand in the same relation to ancient philosophy which hypotheses bear to modern inductive science. These ‘guesses at truth’ were not made at random; they arose from a superficial impression of uniformities and first principles in nature which the genius of the Greek, contemplating the expanse of heaven and earth, seemed to recognize in the distance. Nor can we deny that in ancient times knowledge must have stood still, and the human mind been deprived of the very instruments of thought, if philosophy had been strictly confined to the results of experience.

In today's world, we hardly need reminding that the process of gaining knowledge is often confused with considering absolute knowledge. In all science, a priori and a posteriori truths mix in different amounts. The a priori part comes from the most universal experiences of people or what's widely accepted by them; the a posteriori part develops around the broader principles and seamlessly blends with them. However, Plato mistakenly believes that synthesis can be separated from analysis and that the scientific method can predict science. His perspective on a priori knowledge is somewhat justified, or at least his ideas can be explained by similar efforts from Descartes, Kant, Hegel, and even Bacon in modern philosophy. Anticipations or glimpses of truths, whether about humanity or nature, seem to relate to ancient philosophy in the same way that hypotheses relate to modern inductive science. These "guesses at truth" weren’t random; they emerged from a cursory observation of patterns and fundamental principles in nature that the genius of the Greeks, gazing at the vastness of heaven and earth, appeared to recognize from afar. We can't deny that in ancient times, knowledge would have stagnated and the human mind would have been stripped of the essential tools for thought if philosophy had been strictly limited to the results of experience.

2. Plato supposes that when the tablet has been made blank the artist will fill in the lineaments of the ideal state. Is this a pattern laid up in heaven, or mere vacancy on which he is supposed to gaze with wondering eye? The answer is, that such ideals are framed partly by the omission of particulars, partly by imagination perfecting the form which experience supplies (Phaedo). Plato represents these ideals in a figure as belonging to another world; and in modern times the idea will sometimes seem to precede, at other times to co-operate with the hand of the artist. As in science, so also in creative art, there is a synthetical as well as an analytical method. One man will have the whole in his mind before he begins; to another the processes of mind and hand will be simultaneous.

2. Plato suggests that when the tablet is blank, the artist will fill in the outlines of the ideal state. Is this a blueprint stored in heaven, or just an empty space for him to gaze at with curiosity? The answer is that such ideals are created partly by leaving out specific details and partly by the imagination refining the form that experience provides (Phaedo). Plato illustrates these ideals as belonging to another realm; in modern times, the concept may sometimes seem to come before, and at other times work alongside, the artist’s hand. Just like in science, there’s both a synthetic and an analytical approach in creative art. Some people will have a complete vision in their mind before they start, while for others, the mental and physical processes happen at the same time.

3. There is no difficulty in seeing that Plato’s divisions of knowledge are based, first, on the fundamental antithesis of sensible and intellectual which pervades the whole pre-Socratic philosophy; in which is implied also the opposition of the permanent and transient, of the universal and particular. But the age of philosophy in which he lived seemed to require a further distinction;—numbers and figures were beginning to separate from ideas. The world could no longer regard justice as a cube, and was learning to see, though imperfectly, that the abstractions of sense were distinct from the abstractions of mind. Between the Eleatic being or essence and the shadows of phenomena, the Pythagorean principle of number found a place, and was, as Aristotle remarks, a conducting medium from one to the other. Hence Plato is led to introduce a third term which had not hitherto entered into the scheme of his philosophy. He had observed the use of mathematics in education; they were the best preparation for higher studies. The subjective relation between them further suggested an objective one; although the passage from one to the other is really imaginary (Metaph.). For metaphysical and moral philosophy has no connexion with mathematics; number and figure are the abstractions of time and space, not the expressions of purely intellectual conceptions. When divested of metaphor, a straight line or a square has no more to do with right and justice than a crooked line with vice. The figurative association was mistaken for a real one; and thus the three latter divisions of the Platonic proportion were constructed.

3. It’s clear that Plato’s divisions of knowledge are rooted, first, in the key contrast between what we can sense and what we can understand intellectually, a distinction that runs through all pre-Socratic philosophy. This also involves the conflict between what is permanent and what is temporary, and between the universal and the particular. However, during Plato’s time, there seemed to be a need for an additional distinction; numbers and shapes were starting to separate from ideas. Society could no longer view justice as a cube and was beginning to recognize, though still imperfectly, that sensory abstractions are different from mental abstractions. Between the Eleatic concept of being or essence and the shadows of phenomena, the Pythagorean principle of number found its place, which, as Aristotle notes, acted as a bridge between the two. As a result, Plato introduces a third element that had not previously been part of his philosophical framework. He noticed the role of mathematics in education; they served as the best preparation for advanced studies. The subjective relationship between them led him to suggest an objective one, even though the transition from one to the other is largely imaginary (Metaph.). Metaphysical and moral philosophy doesn’t connect with mathematics; numbers and shapes are merely abstractions of time and space, not representations of purely intellectual ideas. Stripped of metaphor, a straight line or a square has no more connection to righteousness and justice than a crooked line has to wrongdoing. This figurative connection was confused with a real one, leading to the development of the last three divisions of the Platonic proportion.

There is more difficulty in comprehending how he arrived at the first term of the series, which is nowhere else mentioned, and has no reference to any other part of his system. Nor indeed does the relation of shadows to objects correspond to the relation of numbers to ideas. Probably Plato has been led by the love of analogy (Timaeus) to make four terms instead of three, although the objects perceived in both divisions of the lower sphere are equally objects of sense. He is also preparing the way, as his manner is, for the shadows of images at the beginning of the seventh book, and the imitation of an imitation in the tenth. The line may be regarded as reaching from unity to infinity, and is divided into two unequal parts, and subdivided into two more; each lower sphere is the multiplication of the preceding. Of the four faculties, faith in the lower division has an intermediate position (cp. for the use of the word faith or belief, (Greek), Timaeus), contrasting equally with the vagueness of the perception of shadows (Greek) and the higher certainty of understanding (Greek) and reason (Greek).

There is a greater challenge in understanding how he came up with the first term of the series, which isn't mentioned anywhere else and doesn't relate to any other part of his theory. In fact, the relationship of shadows to objects doesn't align with the relationship of numbers to ideas. It's likely that Plato, influenced by his fondness for analogy (Timaeus), chose to create four terms instead of three, even though the objects recognized in both sections of the lower realm are still sensory objects. He's also setting the stage, as is his style, for the shadows of images introduced at the beginning of the seventh book, and the imitation of an imitation in the tenth. The line can be seen as extending from unity to infinity, divided into two unequal parts, and further subdivided into two more; each lower sphere functions as a multiplication of the one before it. Among the four faculties, faith in the lower division occupies a middle ground (see the use of the word faith or belief, (Greek), Timaeus), contrasting with the ambiguity of shadow perception (Greek) and the higher certainty of understanding (Greek) and reason (Greek).

The difference between understanding and mind or reason (Greek) is analogous to the difference between acquiring knowledge in the parts and the contemplation of the whole. True knowledge is a whole, and is at rest; consistency and universality are the tests of truth. To this self-evidencing knowledge of the whole the faculty of mind is supposed to correspond. But there is a knowledge of the understanding which is incomplete and in motion always, because unable to rest in the subordinate ideas. Those ideas are called both images and hypotheses—images because they are clothed in sense, hypotheses because they are assumptions only, until they are brought into connexion with the idea of good.

The difference between understanding and mind or reason (in Greek) is similar to the difference between gaining knowledge of individual parts and seeing the whole picture. True knowledge is complete and stable; consistency and universality are the markers of truth. This self-evident knowledge of the whole is thought to relate to the mind's ability. However, there is a type of knowledge from understanding that is always incomplete and in motion because it can't settle on subordinate ideas. These ideas are referred to as both images and hypotheses—images because they are tied to sensory experiences, and hypotheses because they are just assumptions until they are linked to the idea of good.

The general meaning of the passage, ‘Noble, then, is the bond which links together sight...And of this kind I spoke as the intelligible...’ so far as the thought contained in it admits of being translated into the terms of modern philosophy, may be described or explained as follows:—There is a truth, one and self-existent, to which by the help of a ladder let down from above, the human intelligence may ascend. This unity is like the sun in the heavens, the light by which all things are seen, the being by which they are created and sustained. It is the IDEA of good. And the steps of the ladder leading up to this highest or universal existence are the mathematical sciences, which also contain in themselves an element of the universal. These, too, we see in a new manner when we connect them with the idea of good. They then cease to be hypotheses or pictures, and become essential parts of a higher truth which is at once their first principle and their final cause.

The general meaning of the passage, ‘Noble, then, is the bond which links together sight...And of this kind I spoke as the intelligible...’ as far as the ideas in it can be expressed in modern philosophical terms, can be described like this: There is a truth that is one and self-existent, which human intelligence can ascend to with the help of a ladder coming down from above. This unity is like the sun in the sky, the light by which everything is seen, the being by which all things are created and sustained. It is the IDEA of good. The steps of the ladder leading up to this highest or universal existence are the mathematical sciences, which also have an element of the universal within them. We see these in a new way when we connect them to the idea of good. They stop being just hypotheses or pictures and become essential parts of a greater truth that is both their first principle and their ultimate purpose.

We cannot give any more precise meaning to this remarkable passage, but we may trace in it several rudiments or vestiges of thought which are common to us and to Plato: such as (1) the unity and correlation of the sciences, or rather of science, for in Plato’s time they were not yet parted off or distinguished; (2) the existence of a Divine Power, or life or idea or cause or reason, not yet conceived or no longer conceived as in the Timaeus and elsewhere under the form of a person; (3) the recognition of the hypothetical and conditional character of the mathematical sciences, and in a measure of every science when isolated from the rest; (4) the conviction of a truth which is invisible, and of a law, though hardly a law of nature, which permeates the intellectual rather than the visible world.

We can't assign a more specific meaning to this remarkable passage, but we can identify several fundamental ideas that connect us with Plato: such as (1) the unity and relationship of the sciences, or rather science, since they hadn’t yet been separated or distinguished in Plato's time; (2) the existence of a Divine Power, or life, idea, cause, or reason, which is not understood as a person as it was in the Timaeus and other texts; (3) the acknowledgment of the hypothetical and conditional nature of mathematical sciences, and to some extent of every science when considered in isolation; (4) the belief in an invisible truth and a law, though not necessarily a law of nature, that permeates the intellectual world more than the visible one.

The method of Socrates is hesitating and tentative, awaiting the fuller explanation of the idea of good, and of the nature of dialectic in the seventh book. The imperfect intelligence of Glaucon, and the reluctance of Socrates to make a beginning, mark the difficulty of the subject. The allusion to Theages’ bridle, and to the internal oracle, or demonic sign, of Socrates, which here, as always in Plato, is only prohibitory; the remark that the salvation of any remnant of good in the present evil state of the world is due to God only; the reference to a future state of existence, which is unknown to Glaucon in the tenth book, and in which the discussions of Socrates and his disciples would be resumed; the surprise in the answers; the fanciful irony of Socrates, where he pretends that he can only describe the strange position of the philosopher in a figure of speech; the original observation that the Sophists, after all, are only the representatives and not the leaders of public opinion; the picture of the philosopher standing aside in the shower of sleet under a wall; the figure of ‘the great beast’ followed by the expression of good-will towards the common people who would not have rejected the philosopher if they had known him; the ‘right noble thought’ that the highest truths demand the greatest exactness; the hesitation of Socrates in returning once more to his well-worn theme of the idea of good; the ludicrous earnestness of Glaucon; the comparison of philosophy to a deserted maiden who marries beneath her—are some of the most interesting characteristics of the sixth book.

Socrates' approach is cautious and uncertain, waiting for a more complete explanation of the concept of good and the nature of dialectic in the seventh book. Glaucon's limited understanding and Socrates' hesitation to start highlight the complexity of the topic. There’s a mention of Theages’ bridle and the inner oracle, or divine sign, of Socrates, which, as always in Plato, only forbids; the point that any remaining good in the current troubled state of the world comes solely from God; the mention of a future existence that Glaucon is unaware of in the tenth book, where Socrates and his followers would continue their discussions; the unexpected responses; the playful irony of Socrates, who suggests he can only describe the odd position of the philosopher with a metaphor; the insight that Sophists are merely representatives and not the leaders of public opinion; the image of the philosopher standing apart in the sleet under a wall; the notion of ‘the great beast’ along with goodwill towards the common people who would have embraced the philosopher if they had known him; the ‘noble thought’ that the highest truths require the utmost precision; Socrates’ reluctance to revisit his well-trodden theme of the idea of good; Glaucon's ridiculous seriousness; and the comparison of philosophy to a forsaken maiden who settles for a lesser match—these are some of the most intriguing features of the sixth book.

Yet a few more words may be added, on the old theme, which was so oft discussed in the Socratic circle, of which we, like Glaucon and Adeimantus, would fain, if possible, have a clearer notion. Like them, we are dissatisfied when we are told that the idea of good can only be revealed to a student of the mathematical sciences, and we are inclined to think that neither we nor they could have been led along that path to any satisfactory goal. For we have learned that differences of quantity cannot pass into differences of quality, and that the mathematical sciences can never rise above themselves into the sphere of our higher thoughts, although they may sometimes furnish symbols and expressions of them, and may train the mind in habits of abstraction and self-concentration. The illusion which was natural to an ancient philosopher has ceased to be an illusion to us. But if the process by which we are supposed to arrive at the idea of good be really imaginary, may not the idea itself be also a mere abstraction? We remark, first, that in all ages, and especially in primitive philosophy, words such as being, essence, unity, good, have exerted an extraordinary influence over the minds of men. The meagreness or negativeness of their content has been in an inverse ratio to their power. They have become the forms under which all things were comprehended. There was a need or instinct in the human soul which they satisfied; they were not ideas, but gods, and to this new mythology the men of a later generation began to attach the powers and associations of the elder deities.

Yet we can add a few more words on the familiar topic that was often discussed in the Socratic circle, which we, like Glaucon and Adeimantus, would really like to understand more clearly. Like them, we feel unsatisfied when we hear that the idea of the good can only be grasped by someone studying mathematical sciences, and we start to think that neither we nor they could reach any meaningful conclusion from that path. We’ve learned that differences in quantity can’t turn into differences in quality, and the mathematical sciences can never elevate themselves to the realm of our deeper thoughts, even though they may sometimes provide symbols and expressions for those thoughts and train the mind in habits of abstraction and focus. The illusion that was once natural for ancient philosophers no longer feels like an illusion to us. But if the way we’re supposed to reach the idea of the good is actually imaginary, could the idea itself also just be an abstraction? We note that throughout history, especially in early philosophy, terms like being, essence, unity, and good have had a powerful impact on people's minds. The emptiness or negativity of their meanings has been inversely proportional to their influence. They became the forms through which everything was understood. There was a need or instinct within the human soul that they fulfilled; they were not merely ideas, but deities, and to this new mythology, later generations began to ascribe the powers and associations of older gods.

The idea of good is one of those sacred words or forms of thought, which were beginning to take the place of the old mythology. It meant unity, in which all time and all existence were gathered up. It was the truth of all things, and also the light in which they shone forth, and became evident to intelligences human and divine. It was the cause of all things, the power by which they were brought into being. It was the universal reason divested of a human personality. It was the life as well as the light of the world, all knowledge and all power were comprehended in it. The way to it was through the mathematical sciences, and these too were dependent on it. To ask whether God was the maker of it, or made by it, would be like asking whether God could be conceived apart from goodness, or goodness apart from God. The God of the Timaeus is not really at variance with the idea of good; they are aspects of the same, differing only as the personal from the impersonal, or the masculine from the neuter, the one being the expression or language of mythology, the other of philosophy.

The concept of good is one of those revered ideas or ways of thinking that started to replace the old myths. It represented unity, where all time and existence were gathered together. It embodied the truth of everything and also the light through which they became clear to both human and divine minds. It was the source of everything, the force that brought things into existence. It was universal reason, free from a human personality. It was both the life and light of the world, encompassing all knowledge and power. The path to it was through the mathematical sciences, which depended on it as well. Asking whether God created it or was created by it would be like questioning whether God can be understood separately from goodness or goodness apart from God. The God in the Timaeus doesn’t really contradict the idea of good; they are two sides of the same coin, differing only as the personal and the impersonal, or the masculine and the neuter, with one representing the language of mythology and the other of philosophy.

This, or something like this, is the meaning of the idea of good as conceived by Plato. Ideas of number, order, harmony, development may also be said to enter into it. The paraphrase which has just been given of it goes beyond the actual words of Plato. We have perhaps arrived at the stage of philosophy which enables us to understand what he is aiming at, better than he did himself. We are beginning to realize what he saw darkly and at a distance. But if he could have been told that this, or some conception of the same kind, but higher than this, was the truth at which he was aiming, and the need which he sought to supply, he would gladly have recognized that more was contained in his own thoughts than he himself knew. As his words are few and his manner reticent and tentative, so must the style of his interpreter be. We should not approach his meaning more nearly by attempting to define it further. In translating him into the language of modern thought, we might insensibly lose the spirit of ancient philosophy. It is remarkable that although Plato speaks of the idea of good as the first principle of truth and being, it is nowhere mentioned in his writings except in this passage. Nor did it retain any hold upon the minds of his disciples in a later generation; it was probably unintelligible to them. Nor does the mention of it in Aristotle appear to have any reference to this or any other passage in his extant writings.

This, or something like it, represents Plato's concept of the good. Ideas like numbers, order, harmony, and development are also part of it. The paraphrase just provided goes beyond Plato's actual words. We may now be at a point in philosophy where we understand his intentions better than he did himself. We’re starting to see what he perceived vaguely and from afar. If he could have been told that this, or a related but higher concept, was the truth he was after and the need he was trying to address, he would have gladly recognized that his own thoughts encompassed more than he realized. Since his words are few and his style reserved and tentative, so should the style of anyone interpreting him be. We shouldn’t try to get closer to his meaning by defining it further. In translating him into modern thought, we might inadvertently lose the essence of ancient philosophy. It's noteworthy that while Plato refers to the idea of good as the foundational principle of truth and existence, it's mentioned nowhere else in his writings except this one passage. It didn't seem to resonate with his later disciples and was likely incomprehensible to them. Additionally, when Aristotle mentions it, it doesn’t appear to relate to this or any other passages in his existing works.

BOOK VII. And now I will describe in a figure the enlightenment or unenlightenment of our nature:—Imagine human beings living in an underground den which is open towards the light; they have been there from childhood, having their necks and legs chained, and can only see into the den. At a distance there is a fire, and between the fire and the prisoners a raised way, and a low wall is built along the way, like the screen over which marionette players show their puppets. Behind the wall appear moving figures, who hold in their hands various works of art, and among them images of men and animals, wood and stone, and some of the passers-by are talking and others silent. ‘A strange parable,’ he said, ‘and strange captives.’ They are ourselves, I replied; and they see only the shadows of the images which the fire throws on the wall of the den; to these they give names, and if we add an echo which returns from the wall, the voices of the passengers will seem to proceed from the shadows. Suppose now that you suddenly turn them round and make them look with pain and grief to themselves at the real images; will they believe them to be real? Will not their eyes be dazzled, and will they not try to get away from the light to something which they are able to behold without blinking? And suppose further, that they are dragged up a steep and rugged ascent into the presence of the sun himself, will not their sight be darkened with the excess of light? Some time will pass before they get the habit of perceiving at all; and at first they will be able to perceive only shadows and reflections in the water; then they will recognize the moon and the stars, and will at length behold the sun in his own proper place as he is. Last of all they will conclude:—This is he who gives us the year and the seasons, and is the author of all that we see. How will they rejoice in passing from darkness to light! How worthless to them will seem the honours and glories of the den! But now imagine further, that they descend into their old habitations;—in that underground dwelling they will not see as well as their fellows, and will not be able to compete with them in the measurement of the shadows on the wall; there will be many jokes about the man who went on a visit to the sun and lost his eyes, and if they find anybody trying to set free and enlighten one of their number, they will put him to death, if they can catch him. Now the cave or den is the world of sight, the fire is the sun, the way upwards is the way to knowledge, and in the world of knowledge the idea of good is last seen and with difficulty, but when seen is inferred to be the author of good and right—parent of the lord of light in this world, and of truth and understanding in the other. He who attains to the beatific vision is always going upwards; he is unwilling to descend into political assemblies and courts of law; for his eyes are apt to blink at the images or shadows of images which they behold in them—he cannot enter into the ideas of those who have never in their lives understood the relation of the shadow to the substance. But blindness is of two kinds, and may be caused either by passing out of darkness into light or out of light into darkness, and a man of sense will distinguish between them, and will not laugh equally at both of them, but the blindness which arises from fulness of light he will deem blessed, and pity the other; or if he laugh at the puzzled soul looking at the sun, he will have more reason to laugh than the inhabitants of the den at those who descend from above. There is a further lesson taught by this parable of ours. Some persons fancy that instruction is like giving eyes to the blind, but we say that the faculty of sight was always there, and that the soul only requires to be turned round towards the light. And this is conversion; other virtues are almost like bodily habits, and may be acquired in the same manner, but intelligence has a diviner life, and is indestructible, turning either to good or evil according to the direction given. Did you never observe how the mind of a clever rogue peers out of his eyes, and the more clearly he sees, the more evil he does? Now if you take such an one, and cut away from him those leaden weights of pleasure and desire which bind his soul to earth, his intelligence will be turned round, and he will behold the truth as clearly as he now discerns his meaner ends. And have we not decided that our rulers must neither be so uneducated as to have no fixed rule of life, nor so over-educated as to be unwilling to leave their paradise for the business of the world? We must choose out therefore the natures who are most likely to ascend to the light and knowledge of the good; but we must not allow them to remain in the region of light; they must be forced down again among the captives in the den to partake of their labours and honours. ‘Will they not think this a hardship?’ You should remember that our purpose in framing the State was not that our citizens should do what they like, but that they should serve the State for the common good of all. May we not fairly say to our philosopher,—Friend, we do you no wrong; for in other States philosophy grows wild, and a wild plant owes nothing to the gardener, but you have been trained by us to be the rulers and kings of our hive, and therefore we must insist on your descending into the den. You must, each of you, take your turn, and become able to use your eyes in the dark, and with a little practice you will see far better than those who quarrel about the shadows, whose knowledge is a dream only, whilst yours is a waking reality. It may be that the saint or philosopher who is best fitted, may also be the least inclined to rule, but necessity is laid upon him, and he must no longer live in the heaven of ideas. And this will be the salvation of the State. For those who rule must not be those who are desirous to rule; and, if you can offer to our citizens a better life than that of rulers generally is, there will be a chance that the rich, not only in this world’s goods, but in virtue and wisdom, may bear rule. And the only life which is better than the life of political ambition is that of philosophy, which is also the best preparation for the government of a State.

BOOK VII. Now I will explain the enlightenment or lack of enlightenment in our nature:—Imagine people living in an underground cave that opens toward the light; they’ve been there since childhood, with their necks and legs chained, so they can only see into the cave. Farther away, there’s a fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised path with a low wall built along it, similar to the screen that puppeteers use to show their puppets. Behind the wall, there are moving figures holding various works of art, including images of people and animals, made of wood and stone; some of the passers-by are talking, while others are silent. “What a strange parable,” he said, “and strange captives.” They are us, I replied; and they only see the shadows of the images cast by the fire on the wall of the cave; they give names to these shadows, and if we add an echo that comes back from the wall, the voices of the passers-by will seem to come from the shadows. Suppose now that you suddenly turn them around to look painfully and grief-stricken at the real images; will they believe these images are real? Won’t their eyes be blinded, and won’t they try to escape from the light to something they can look at without squinting? And suppose further that they are dragged up a steep and rough path into the presence of the sun itself; won’t their sight be overwhelmed by the bright light? It will take some time before they get used to seeing at all; at first, they will only be able to see shadows and reflections in the water; then they’ll recognize the moon and the stars, and finally, they will see the sun in its rightful place. In the end, they will conclude:—This is what gives us the year and the seasons, and it is the source of all that we see. How they will rejoice at moving from darkness to light! How worthless the honors and glories of the cave will seem to them! But now, imagine they return to their old home;—in that underground dwelling, they won’t see as well as their peers, and they won’t be able to keep up with them in measuring shadows on the wall; there will be many jokes about the man who went to visit the sun and lost his sight, and if they find anyone trying to free and enlighten one of their members, they will kill him if they can catch him. Now the cave represents the world of sight, the fire symbolizes the sun, the upward path is the way to knowledge, and in the realm of knowledge, the idea of good is the last to be seen, and even then, it is seen with difficulty; but once seen, it is understood to be the source of good and right—the parent of the lord of light in this world and of truth and understanding in the next. He who reaches the ultimate vision is always moving upward; he is reluctant to go back into political meetings and courts of law because his eyes are prone to squint at the images or shadows he sees there—he cannot grasp the ideas of those who have never understood the relationship between shadow and substance. But there are two kinds of blindness, and it can be caused either by moving from darkness to light or from light to darkness, and a sensible person will recognize the difference between them; he won’t laugh equally at both, but he will consider the blindness from too much light as a blessing and feel pity for the other. Or if he laughs at the confused soul looking at the sun, he will have more reason to laugh than the inhabitants of the cave laugh at those who come down from above. There is another lesson from this parable. Some people think of education as like giving sight to the blind, but we say that the ability to see was always there; the soul just needs to turn toward the light. And this is conversion; other virtues are like physical habits and can be acquired in the same way, but intelligence has a divine quality and is indestructible, turning either toward good or evil depending on the guidance it receives. Have you ever noticed how the mind of a clever trickster shines through his eyes, and the more clearly he sees, the more evil he commits? Now, if you take someone like this and remove the heavy weights of pleasure and desire that tie their soul to the earth, their intelligence will be redirected, and they will see the truth as clearly as they now see their lower goals. And haven’t we decided that our leaders shouldn’t be so uneducated that they have no solid rule of life, nor so over-educated that they refuse to leave their paradise for the responsibilities of the world? Therefore, we must select individuals most likely to rise to the light and knowledge of the good; but we must not allow them to stay in the realm of light—they need to be brought back down among the captives in the cave to take part in their work and honors. “Won’t they see this as a burden?” Remember, our aim in creating the State wasn’t for our citizens to do whatever they like, but for them to serve the State for the common good of all. Can we not rightly say to our philosopher,—Friend, we’re not doing you any wrong; in other States, philosophy is wild and untamed, and a wild plant owes nothing to the gardener, but you have been trained by us to be the leaders and kings of our community, so we insist you return to the cave. You must take your turn and learn to use your eyes in the dark, and with a little practice, you’ll see much better than those who argue over shadows, whose knowledge is nothing but a dream, while yours is a waking reality. It may be that the saint or philosopher who is best suited to lead may also be the least eager to rule, but necessity falls upon him, and he can no longer live in the realm of ideas. This will be the salvation of the State. Those who lead shouldn’t be those who wish to lead; and if you can offer our citizens a better life than the typical life of rulers, then there's a chance that those who are rich, not only in material wealth but in virtue and wisdom, may take charge. The only life better than the life of political ambition is that of philosophy, which also provides the best preparation for governing a State.

Then now comes the question,—How shall we create our rulers; what way is there from darkness to light? The change is effected by philosophy; it is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the conversion of a soul from night to day, from becoming to being. And what training will draw the soul upwards? Our former education had two branches, gymnastic, which was occupied with the body, and music, the sister art, which infused a natural harmony into mind and literature; but neither of these sciences gave any promise of doing what we want. Nothing remains to us but that universal or primary science of which all the arts and sciences are partakers, I mean number or calculation. ‘Very true.’ Including the art of war? ‘Yes, certainly.’ Then there is something ludicrous about Palamedes in the tragedy, coming in and saying that he had invented number, and had counted the ranks and set them in order. For if Agamemnon could not count his feet (and without number how could he?) he must have been a pretty sort of general indeed. No man should be a soldier who cannot count, and indeed he is hardly to be called a man. But I am not speaking of these practical applications of arithmetic, for number, in my view, is rather to be regarded as a conductor to thought and being. I will explain what I mean by the last expression:—Things sensible are of two kinds; the one class invite or stimulate the mind, while in the other the mind acquiesces. Now the stimulating class are the things which suggest contrast and relation. For example, suppose that I hold up to the eyes three fingers—a fore finger, a middle finger, a little finger—the sight equally recognizes all three fingers, but without number cannot further distinguish them. Or again, suppose two objects to be relatively great and small, these ideas of greatness and smallness are supplied not by the sense, but by the mind. And the perception of their contrast or relation quickens and sets in motion the mind, which is puzzled by the confused intimations of sense, and has recourse to number in order to find out whether the things indicated are one or more than one. Number replies that they are two and not one, and are to be distinguished from one another. Again, the sight beholds great and small, but only in a confused chaos, and not until they are distinguished does the question arise of their respective natures; we are thus led on to the distinction between the visible and intelligible. That was what I meant when I spoke of stimulants to the intellect; I was thinking of the contradictions which arise in perception. The idea of unity, for example, like that of a finger, does not arouse thought unless involving some conception of plurality; but when the one is also the opposite of one, the contradiction gives rise to reflection; an example of this is afforded by any object of sight. All number has also an elevating effect; it raises the mind out of the foam and flux of generation to the contemplation of being, having lesser military and retail uses also. The retail use is not required by us; but as our guardian is to be a soldier as well as a philosopher, the military one may be retained. And to our higher purpose no science can be better adapted; but it must be pursued in the spirit of a philosopher, not of a shopkeeper. It is concerned, not with visible objects, but with abstract truth; for numbers are pure abstractions—the true arithmetician indignantly denies that his unit is capable of division. When you divide, he insists that you are only multiplying; his ‘one’ is not material or resolvable into fractions, but an unvarying and absolute equality; and this proves the purely intellectual character of his study. Note also the great power which arithmetic has of sharpening the wits; no other discipline is equally severe, or an equal test of general ability, or equally improving to a stupid person.

Then the question arises: how will we choose our leaders? What path leads from ignorance to knowledge? The change happens through philosophy; it's not just flipping over an oyster shell, but transforming a soul from darkness to light, from becoming to being. What kind of training will elevate the soul? Our previous education had two parts: physical exercise, which focused on the body, and music, the sister art, which brought a natural harmony to the mind and literature. However, neither of these areas promised to achieve our goal. All that remains is this universal or foundational science that underlies all arts and sciences—namely, number or mathematics. 'That's true.' Does this include the art of war? 'Yes, absolutely.' Then there's something amusing about Palamedes in the play, coming in and claiming he invented numbers, counted the ranks, and organized them. Because if Agamemnon couldn't count his men (and how could he without numbers?), he must have been quite a poor general. No one should be a soldier who can't count, and really, he could hardly be called a man. But I'm not talking about the practical applications of arithmetic; to me, number should be seen more as a guide to thought and existence. Let me explain what I mean by that: things we perceive can be divided into two categories; one type engages the mind, while in the other, the mind simply accepts. The engaging type is made up of things that suggest contrast and relationships. For instance, if I hold up three fingers—a forefinger, a middle finger, and a little finger—our sight recognizes all three, but without numbers, we can't tell them apart further. Or consider two objects that are relatively large and small; the ideas of largeness and smallness aren't given by our senses but come from the mind. The awareness of their contrast or relationship activates the mind, which struggles with the mixed signals from our senses and turns to numbers to determine whether what we see is one thing or more than one. Numbers clarify that they are two, not one, and help distinguish between them. Again, the sight recognizes big and small, but only in a confusing mix, and until they are differentiated, we don't think about their respective natures; this leads us to distinguish between the visible and the intelligible. That's what I meant by mental stimulants; I was considering the contradictions in our perceptions. For example, the concept of unity, like that of a finger, doesn't provoke thought unless it involves some idea of plurality; but when one also signifies the opposite of one, that contradiction sparks reflection; any visible object can illustrate this. All numbers also have an uplifting effect; they elevate the mind from the chaos of change to the contemplation of existence, although they have lesser military and practical applications too. We don't need the practical use, but since our guardian must be both a soldier and a philosopher, we can keep the military aspect. For our higher purpose, no science suits better; but it must be pursued like a philosopher, not a tradesman. It's not about visible things but about abstract truths; numbers are pure abstractions—the true mathematician passionately argues that his unit can’t be divided. When you divide, he asserts, you're just multiplying; his ‘one’ isn’t material or divisible into parts, but an unchanging and absolute equality; and that shows the purely intellectual nature of his study. Also, notice the incredible ability that arithmetic has to sharpen the mind; no other discipline is as rigorous, or as effective as a measure of overall ability, or as enhancing to someone who isn’t very bright.

Let our second branch of education be geometry. ‘I can easily see,’ replied Glaucon, ‘that the skill of the general will be doubled by his knowledge of geometry.’ That is a small matter; the use of geometry, to which I refer, is the assistance given by it in the contemplation of the idea of good, and the compelling the mind to look at true being, and not at generation only. Yet the present mode of pursuing these studies, as any one who is the least of a mathematician is aware, is mean and ridiculous; they are made to look downwards to the arts, and not upwards to eternal existence. The geometer is always talking of squaring, subtending, apposing, as if he had in view action; whereas knowledge is the real object of the study. It should elevate the soul, and create the mind of philosophy; it should raise up what has fallen down, not to speak of lesser uses in war and military tactics, and in the improvement of the faculties.

Let’s make geometry our second area of study. “I can see that a general's skills will be greatly enhanced by knowing geometry,” Glaucon responded. That’s just a minor point; the real value of geometry is in how it helps us understand the concept of the good, encouraging the mind to focus on true existence rather than just what is created. However, the way these studies are currently approached, as anyone with even a little mathematical knowledge knows, is low and laughable; they focus on practical applications instead of timeless truths. Geometers are always talking about squaring, subtending, and apposing, as if they are focused on action, when in reality, knowledge is the main goal of study. It should lift the spirit and foster a philosophical mindset; it should elevate what has fallen, not to mention its lesser applications in warfare and military strategy, and in the enhancement of our capabilities.

Shall we propose, as a third branch of our education, astronomy? ‘Very good,’ replied Glaucon; ‘the knowledge of the heavens is necessary at once for husbandry, navigation, military tactics.’ I like your way of giving useful reasons for everything in order to make friends of the world. And there is a difficulty in proving to mankind that education is not only useful information but a purification of the eye of the soul, which is better than the bodily eye, for by this alone is truth seen. Now, will you appeal to mankind in general or to the philosopher? or would you prefer to look to yourself only? ‘Every man is his own best friend.’ Then take a step backward, for we are out of order, and insert the third dimension which is of solids, after the second which is of planes, and then you may proceed to solids in motion. But solid geometry is not popular and has not the patronage of the State, nor is the use of it fully recognized; the difficulty is great, and the votaries of the study are conceited and impatient. Still the charm of the pursuit wins upon men, and, if government would lend a little assistance, there might be great progress made. ‘Very true,’ replied Glaucon; ‘but do I understand you now to begin with plane geometry, and to place next geometry of solids, and thirdly, astronomy, or the motion of solids?’ Yes, I said; my hastiness has only hindered us.

Shall we suggest astronomy as a third branch of our education? “Sounds great,” replied Glaucon; “knowing about the heavens is essential for farming, navigation, and military strategy.” I appreciate how you provide practical reasons for everything to connect with society. There's a challenge in showing people that education isn't just about useful information, but also about purifying the soul’s vision, which is far more important than physical sight, because only through this can we see the truth. Now, do you want to address everyone in general, or the philosopher? Or would you rather focus only on yourself? “Every person is their own best friend.” Then let's step back, because we’re getting off track, and place solid geometry after plane geometry, and then you can move on to solids in motion. However, solid geometry isn't popular and lacks government support, plus its application isn't fully recognized; the challenges are significant, and its followers can be arrogant and restless. Still, the appeal of the pursuit captivates people, and with a bit of help from the government, we could make substantial advancements. “That’s very true,” replied Glaucon; “so am I correct in understanding that we should start with plane geometry, then move to solid geometry, and lastly astronomy, or the motion of solids?” Yes, I said; my eagerness has only delayed us.

‘Very good, and now let us proceed to astronomy, about which I am willing to speak in your lofty strain. No one can fail to see that the contemplation of the heavens draws the soul upwards.’ I am an exception, then; astronomy as studied at present appears to me to draw the soul not upwards, but downwards. Star-gazing is just looking up at the ceiling—no better; a man may lie on his back on land or on water—he may look up or look down, but there is no science in that. The vision of knowledge of which I speak is seen not with the eyes, but with the mind. All the magnificence of the heavens is but the embroidery of a copy which falls far short of the divine Original, and teaches nothing about the absolute harmonies or motions of things. Their beauty is like the beauty of figures drawn by the hand of Daedalus or any other great artist, which may be used for illustration, but no mathematician would seek to obtain from them true conceptions of equality or numerical relations. How ridiculous then to look for these in the map of the heavens, in which the imperfection of matter comes in everywhere as a disturbing element, marring the symmetry of day and night, of months and years, of the sun and stars in their courses. Only by problems can we place astronomy on a truly scientific basis. Let the heavens alone, and exert the intellect.

"Great, now let's move on to astronomy, and I'm ready to discuss it in your elevated style. It's clear that contemplating the heavens should uplift the soul." I must disagree; the way astronomy is studied today seems to pull the soul downward instead. Stargazing is just staring at the ceiling—no different; a person can lie on their back on land or water—they can look up or down, but that doesn’t involve real science. The knowledge I’m talking about isn't seen with the eyes but with the mind. All the splendor of the heavens is just embellishment of a copy that falls far short of the divine Original and teaches nothing about the absolute harmonies or movements of things. Their beauty resembles the art created by Daedalus or any other great artist, which may serve for illustration, but no mathematician would rely on them for genuine understanding of equality or numerical relationships. So how absurd it is to expect to find these in the map of the heavens, where the flaws of matter disrupt everything, ruining the balance of day and night, months and years, the sun and stars in their paths. Only through problems can we place astronomy on a truly scientific foundation. Leave the heavens alone and focus on the intellect.

Still, mathematics admit of other applications, as the Pythagoreans say, and we agree. There is a sister science of harmonical motion, adapted to the ear as astronomy is to the eye, and there may be other applications also. Let us inquire of the Pythagoreans about them, not forgetting that we have an aim higher than theirs, which is the relation of these sciences to the idea of good. The error which pervades astronomy also pervades harmonics. The musicians put their ears in the place of their minds. ‘Yes,’ replied Glaucon, ‘I like to see them laying their ears alongside of their neighbours’ faces—some saying, “That’s a new note,” others declaring that the two notes are the same.’ Yes, I said; but you mean the empirics who are always twisting and torturing the strings of the lyre, and quarrelling about the tempers of the strings; I am referring rather to the Pythagorean harmonists, who are almost equally in error. For they investigate only the numbers of the consonances which are heard, and ascend no higher,—of the true numerical harmony which is unheard, and is only to be found in problems, they have not even a conception. ‘That last,’ he said, ‘must be a marvellous thing.’ A thing, I replied, which is only useful if pursued with a view to the good.

Still, mathematics has other applications, as the Pythagoreans say, and we agree. There’s a related science of harmonic motion that appeals to the ear, just like astronomy does to the eye, and there may be more applications as well. Let’s ask the Pythagoreans about them, keeping in mind that we have a higher goal than theirs, which is understanding how these sciences relate to the idea of the good. The mistake that exists in astronomy also exists in harmonics. Musicians focus on their ears instead of using their minds. “Yes,” Glaucon replied, “I find it amusing to see them putting their ears next to their neighbors’ faces—some saying, ‘That’s a new note,’ while others insist that the two notes are the same.” Sure, I said, but you're talking about the empirics who are always bending and twisting the strings of the lyre, arguing about how the strings feel; I'm actually referring to the Pythagorean harmonists, who are nearly as mistaken. They only look at the numbers of the harmonies they hear and don’t go any deeper—of the true numerical harmony that goes unheard and can only be found in mathematical problems, they don’t even have a concept. “That last part,” he said, “must be amazing.” I replied, it’s only useful if pursued with the intention of achieving the good.

All these sciences are the prelude of the strain, and are profitable if they are regarded in their natural relations to one another. ‘I dare say, Socrates,’ said Glaucon; ‘but such a study will be an endless business.’ What study do you mean—of the prelude, or what? For all these things are only the prelude, and you surely do not suppose that a mere mathematician is also a dialectician? ‘Certainly not. I have hardly ever known a mathematician who could reason.’ And yet, Glaucon, is not true reasoning that hymn of dialectic which is the music of the intellectual world, and which was by us compared to the effort of sight, when from beholding the shadows on the wall we arrived at last at the images which gave the shadows? Even so the dialectical faculty withdrawing from sense arrives by the pure intellect at the contemplation of the idea of good, and never rests but at the very end of the intellectual world. And the royal road out of the cave into the light, and the blinking of the eyes at the sun and turning to contemplate the shadows of reality, not the shadows of an image only—this progress and gradual acquisition of a new faculty of sight by the help of the mathematical sciences, is the elevation of the soul to the contemplation of the highest ideal of being.

All these sciences are just the beginning of the journey, and they are useful if we see how they relate to each other. “I get that, Socrates,” Glaucon said, “but studying all this will take forever.” Which study are you talking about—the prelude or something else? Because all of these topics are just the beginning, and you can’t really think that a person who only knows math is also skilled in reasoning, right? “Definitely not. I can hardly think of a mathematician who could reason well.” Yet, Glaucon, isn’t true reasoning like that song of dialectic which is the music of the intellectual world? We compared it to the process of sight, where we went from seeing shadows on the wall to finally understanding the images that cast those shadows. In the same way, the dialectical ability moves away from sensory experiences and reaches, through pure intellect, the understanding of the idea of good, and it doesn’t stop until it reaches the very peak of the intellectual realm. The clear path from the cave to the light—where our eyes blink in the sun and we turn to see the actual shadows of reality, not just the shadows of figments—this journey and gradual development of a new way of seeing, aided by the mathematical sciences, is what lifts the soul to the consideration of the highest ideal of existence.

‘So far, I agree with you. But now, leaving the prelude, let us proceed to the hymn. What, then, is the nature of dialectic, and what are the paths which lead thither?’ Dear Glaucon, you cannot follow me here. There can be no revelation of the absolute truth to one who has not been disciplined in the previous sciences. But that there is a science of absolute truth, which is attained in some way very different from those now practised, I am confident. For all other arts or sciences are relative to human needs and opinions; and the mathematical sciences are but a dream or hypothesis of true being, and never analyse their own principles. Dialectic alone rises to the principle which is above hypotheses, converting and gently leading the eye of the soul out of the barbarous slough of ignorance into the light of the upper world, with the help of the sciences which we have been describing—sciences, as they are often termed, although they require some other name, implying greater clearness than opinion and less clearness than science, and this in our previous sketch was understanding. And so we get four names—two for intellect, and two for opinion,—reason or mind, understanding, faith, perception of shadows—which make a proportion— being:becoming::intellect:opinion—and science:belief::understanding: perception of shadows. Dialectic may be further described as that science which defines and explains the essence or being of each nature, which distinguishes and abstracts the good, and is ready to do battle against all opponents in the cause of good. To him who is not a dialectician life is but a sleepy dream; and many a man is in his grave before his is well waked up. And would you have the future rulers of your ideal State intelligent beings, or stupid as posts? ‘Certainly not the latter.’ Then you must train them in dialectic, which will teach them to ask and answer questions, and is the coping-stone of the sciences.

‘So far, I agree with you. But now, setting aside the introduction, let’s get to the main point. What exactly is dialectic, and what paths lead us there?’ My dear Glaucon, you can’t follow me on this. There can’t be any revelation of absolute truth to someone who hasn’t been trained in the earlier sciences. But I’m confident that there is a science of absolute truth, and it’s reached in a way that’s very different from what we practice now. All other arts or sciences relate to human needs and opinions; the mathematical sciences are just a dream or hypothesis of true existence and don’t analyze their own principles. Only dialectic ascends to the principle that goes beyond hypotheses, gently guiding the soul from the dark swamp of ignorance into the light of a higher reality, with the support of the sciences we’ve been discussing—sciences, as they’re often called, even though they need another name, signifying greater clarity than opinion but less than true science, which in our earlier discussion we referred to as understanding. So we have four terms—two for intellect and two for opinion: reason or mind, understanding, belief, and perception of shadows—which create a proportion—being: becoming :: intellect: opinion—and science: belief :: understanding: perception of shadows. We can also describe dialectic as the science that defines and explains the essence or existence of each nature, that distinguishes and clarifies the good, and is ready to defend it against all opponents. To someone who isn’t a dialectician, life is just a dull dream; many people are in their graves before they’re truly awake. And would you want the future leaders of your ideal State to be intelligent individuals or as dumb as rocks? ‘Certainly not the latter.’ Then you must educate them in dialectic, which will teach them to ask and answer questions and is the pinnacle of the sciences.

I dare say that you have not forgotten how our rulers were chosen; and the process of selection may be carried a step further:—As before, they must be constant and valiant, good-looking, and of noble manners, but now they must also have natural ability which education will improve; that is to say, they must be quick at learning, capable of mental toil, retentive, solid, diligent natures, who combine intellectual with moral virtues; not lame and one-sided, diligent in bodily exercise and indolent in mind, or conversely; not a maimed soul, which hates falsehood and yet unintentionally is always wallowing in the mire of ignorance; not a bastard or feeble person, but sound in wind and limb, and in perfect condition for the great gymnastic trial of the mind. Justice herself can find no fault with natures such as these; and they will be the saviours of our State; disciples of another sort would only make philosophy more ridiculous than she is at present. Forgive my enthusiasm; I am becoming excited; but when I see her trampled underfoot, I am angry at the authors of her disgrace. ‘I did not notice that you were more excited than you ought to have been.’ But I felt that I was. Now do not let us forget another point in the selection of our disciples—that they must be young and not old. For Solon is mistaken in saying that an old man can be always learning; youth is the time of study, and here we must remember that the mind is free and dainty, and, unlike the body, must not be made to work against the grain. Learning should be at first a sort of play, in which the natural bent is detected. As in training them for war, the young dogs should at first only taste blood; but when the necessary gymnastics are over which during two or three years divide life between sleep and bodily exercise, then the education of the soul will become a more serious matter. At twenty years of age, a selection must be made of the more promising disciples, with whom a new epoch of education will begin. The sciences which they have hitherto learned in fragments will now be brought into relation with each other and with true being; for the power of combining them is the test of speculative and dialectical ability. And afterwards at thirty a further selection shall be made of those who are able to withdraw from the world of sense into the abstraction of ideas. But at this point, judging from present experience, there is a danger that dialectic may be the source of many evils. The danger may be illustrated by a parallel case:—Imagine a person who has been brought up in wealth and luxury amid a crowd of flatterers, and who is suddenly informed that he is a supposititious son. He has hitherto honoured his reputed parents and disregarded the flatterers, and now he does the reverse. This is just what happens with a man’s principles. There are certain doctrines which he learnt at home and which exercised a parental authority over him. Presently he finds that imputations are cast upon them; a troublesome querist comes and asks, ‘What is the just and good?’ or proves that virtue is vice and vice virtue, and his mind becomes unsettled, and he ceases to love, honour, and obey them as he has hitherto done. He is seduced into the life of pleasure, and becomes a lawless person and a rogue. The case of such speculators is very pitiable, and, in order that our thirty years’ old pupils may not require this pity, let us take every possible care that young persons do not study philosophy too early. For a young man is a sort of puppy who only plays with an argument; and is reasoned into and out of his opinions every day; he soon begins to believe nothing, and brings himself and philosophy into discredit. A man of thirty does not run on in this way; he will argue and not merely contradict, and adds new honour to philosophy by the sobriety of his conduct. What time shall we allow for this second gymnastic training of the soul?—say, twice the time required for the gymnastics of the body; six, or perhaps five years, to commence at thirty, and then for fifteen years let the student go down into the den, and command armies, and gain experience of life. At fifty let him return to the end of all things, and have his eyes uplifted to the idea of good, and order his life after that pattern; if necessary, taking his turn at the helm of State, and training up others to be his successors. When his time comes he shall depart in peace to the islands of the blest. He shall be honoured with sacrifices, and receive such worship as the Pythian oracle approves.

I bet you haven’t forgotten how our leaders were chosen, and we can take the selection process a step further: they must still be strong and brave, attractive, and have good manners, but now they also need to have natural talent that education can enhance. This means they should be quick learners, able to handle mental work, have good memory, be solid, and hardworking, combining both intellectual and moral virtues; they shouldn’t be physically diligent but mentally lazy, or the other way around; they shouldn’t be weak-minded souls who despise falsehood but still find themselves stuck in ignorance; they shouldn’t be weak or feeble, but strong and healthy, ready for the great mental challenge ahead. Justice herself would find no fault with individuals like these, and they would be the saviors of our State; any other type of student would only make philosophy seem even more ridiculous than it is now. Excuse my enthusiasm; I'm getting a bit carried away; but when I see her being disrespected, I get angry at those responsible. ‘I didn’t notice that you were more worked up than you should be.’ But I felt that I was. Now, let’s not forget another important point in choosing our students – they must be young, not old. Solon is wrong when he says an old person can always learn; youth is the prime time for education, and we need to remember that young minds are free and eager, and unlike the body, shouldn’t be forced into learning against their will. Learning should start off as a kind of play, where we can discover their natural inclinations. Just like training young dogs for war, they should first only get a taste of blood; once they’ve completed a couple of years of necessary physical training that mixes sleep and exercise, then the education of the soul can become more serious. By age twenty, we need to select the most promising students, with whom a new phase of education will begin. The different subjects they’ve previously learned in bits and pieces will now be connected with each other and with true reality; the ability to combine them will be the measure of their critical thinking and reasoning skills. Then, at thirty, there will be a further selection of those who can move from the sensory world into the realm of ideas. However, judging by what we've seen so far, there’s a risk that diving into dialectic could lead to many problems. Let me illustrate this: imagine someone raised in wealth and luxury surrounded by sycophants, who suddenly finds out he’s not their biological child. He honored his supposed parents before but now he starts to disregard them. This is similar to how a person feels about their beliefs. They may have certain views they learned at home that held a parental authority over them. Then, suddenly, those beliefs are challenged; a nagging questioner arrives and asks, ‘What is just and good?’ or argues that virtue is vice and vice is virtue, and this unsettles their mind, causing them to stop loving, honoring, and obeying those beliefs as they once did. They’re tempted into a life of pleasure, becoming lawless and dishonest. It’s unfortunate for such thinkers, and to prevent our thirty-year-old students from this fate, we need to ensure that young people don't start studying philosophy too soon. A young man is like a puppy who just plays with arguments; he shifts his opinions every day and soon starts believing nothing, bringing both himself and philosophy into disrepute. A thirty-year-old doesn’t behave this way; he will argue thoughtfully rather than just contradict, adding respect to philosophy through his responsible actions. How long should we allow for this second phase of mental training? Let’s say twice the time needed for physical training; we should plan for six or maybe five years to start at thirty, then for the next fifteen years, let the student gain real-life experience, commanding armies and facing challenges. By fifty, he should return to the ultimate truths and align his life with the idea of good, taking his turn in government if needed, and training future leaders. When his time comes, he shall depart peacefully to the blessed islands, honored with sacrifices and receiving the kind of worship that the Pythian oracle approves.

‘You are a statuary, Socrates, and have made a perfect image of our governors.’ Yes, and of our governesses, for the women will share in all things with the men. And you will admit that our State is not a mere aspiration, but may really come into being when there shall arise philosopher-kings, one or more, who will despise earthly vanities, and will be the servants of justice only. ‘And how will they begin their work?’ Their first act will be to send away into the country all those who are more than ten years of age, and to proceed with those who are left...

‘You’re like a sculptor, Socrates, and you've created a perfect representation of our leaders.’ Yes, and of our female leaders too, because women will participate in everything alongside men. And you would agree that our State isn't just a dream; it can actually become a reality when philosopher-kings emerge—one or more—who will look down on worldly desires and serve only justice. ‘And how will they start their work?’ Their first action will be to send away anyone older than ten and continue with those who remain...

At the commencement of the sixth book, Plato anticipated his explanation of the relation of the philosopher to the world in an allegory, in this, as in other passages, following the order which he prescribes in education, and proceeding from the concrete to the abstract. At the commencement of Book VII, under the figure of a cave having an opening towards a fire and a way upwards to the true light, he returns to view the divisions of knowledge, exhibiting familiarly, as in a picture, the result which had been hardly won by a great effort of thought in the previous discussion; at the same time casting a glance onward at the dialectical process, which is represented by the way leading from darkness to light. The shadows, the images, the reflection of the sun and stars in the water, the stars and sun themselves, severally correspond,—the first, to the realm of fancy and poetry,—the second, to the world of sense,—the third, to the abstractions or universals of sense, of which the mathematical sciences furnish the type,—the fourth and last to the same abstractions, when seen in the unity of the idea, from which they derive a new meaning and power. The true dialectical process begins with the contemplation of the real stars, and not mere reflections of them, and ends with the recognition of the sun, or idea of good, as the parent not only of light but of warmth and growth. To the divisions of knowledge the stages of education partly answer:—first, there is the early education of childhood and youth in the fancies of the poets, and in the laws and customs of the State;—then there is the training of the body to be a warrior athlete, and a good servant of the mind;—and thirdly, after an interval follows the education of later life, which begins with mathematics and proceeds to philosophy in general.

At the start of the sixth book, Plato introduces his explanation of how philosophers relate to the world through an allegory, following the educational process he outlines by moving from the concrete to the abstract. At the beginning of Book VII, using the image of a cave that opens to a fire and has a path leading up to the true light, he revisits the divisions of knowledge, illustrating the results achieved through intense intellectual effort in the previous discussion, while also hinting at the dialectical process represented by the path from darkness to light. The shadows, images, reflections of the sun and stars in the water, and the stars and sun themselves correspond to different realms: the first represents the world of imagination and poetry; the second corresponds to the sensory world; the third relates to the abstract concepts or universals derived from sensory experiences, exemplified by the mathematical sciences; and the fourth and final corresponds to these abstractions as seen in the unity of the idea, giving them new meaning and power. The true dialectical process begins with the contemplation of real stars instead of just their reflections and culminates in recognizing the sun, or the idea of the good, as the source of not just light but also warmth and growth. The stages of knowledge align with stages of education: first, there's the early education of childhood and youth, focused on the stories of poets and the laws and customs of society; next, physical training to become a skilled warrior athlete and a good servant of the mind; and finally, after a break, comes the education of adulthood, which starts with mathematics and advances to philosophy in general.

There seem to be two great aims in the philosophy of Plato,—first, to realize abstractions; secondly, to connect them. According to him, the true education is that which draws men from becoming to being, and to a comprehensive survey of all being. He desires to develop in the human mind the faculty of seeing the universal in all things; until at last the particulars of sense drop away and the universal alone remains. He then seeks to combine the universals which he has disengaged from sense, not perceiving that the correlation of them has no other basis but the common use of language. He never understands that abstractions, as Hegel says, are ‘mere abstractions’—of use when employed in the arrangement of facts, but adding nothing to the sum of knowledge when pursued apart from them, or with reference to an imaginary idea of good. Still the exercise of the faculty of abstraction apart from facts has enlarged the mind, and played a great part in the education of the human race. Plato appreciated the value of this faculty, and saw that it might be quickened by the study of number and relation. All things in which there is opposition or proportion are suggestive of reflection. The mere impression of sense evokes no power of thought or of mind, but when sensible objects ask to be compared and distinguished, then philosophy begins. The science of arithmetic first suggests such distinctions. The follow in order the other sciences of plain and solid geometry, and of solids in motion, one branch of which is astronomy or the harmony of the spheres,—to this is appended the sister science of the harmony of sounds. Plato seems also to hint at the possibility of other applications of arithmetical or mathematical proportions, such as we employ in chemistry and natural philosophy, such as the Pythagoreans and even Aristotle make use of in Ethics and Politics, e.g. his distinction between arithmetical and geometrical proportion in the Ethics (Book V), or between numerical and proportional equality in the Politics.

Plato's philosophy seems to have two main goals: first, to bring abstract concepts to life; and second, to connect them. He believes that true education draws people from becoming to being, allowing for a comprehensive understanding of all existence. He aims to develop the human mind's ability to see the universal in everything, until the specific details fade away and only the universal remains. He then tries to combine the universals he has separated from sensory perception, not realizing that their connection relies solely on the common use of language. He never fully grasps that, as Hegel puts it, abstractions are just "mere abstractions"—useful when organizing facts but adding nothing to our overall knowledge when pursued separately or in reference to an imaginary idea of good. Still, exercising the ability to abstract from facts has expanded the human mind and played a significant role in our education. Plato recognized the value of this ability and knew it could be enhanced by studying numbers and relationships. Anything involving opposition or proportion invites reflection. Simple sensory impressions evoke no real thought, but when objects require comparison and differentiation, philosophy begins. The study of arithmetic first encourages these distinctions, followed in order by the sciences of plain and solid geometry, and solids in motion, one area of which is astronomy or the harmony of the spheres—alongside this is the related field of the harmony of sounds. Plato also seems to suggest the potential for applying arithmetical or mathematical proportions to areas like chemistry and natural philosophy, as the Pythagoreans and even Aristotle do in Ethics and Politics, such as his distinctions between arithmetical and geometrical proportion in Ethics (Book V) and between numerical and proportional equality in Politics.

The modern mathematician will readily sympathise with Plato’s delight in the properties of pure mathematics. He will not be disinclined to say with him:—Let alone the heavens, and study the beauties of number and figure in themselves. He too will be apt to depreciate their application to the arts. He will observe that Plato has a conception of geometry, in which figures are to be dispensed with; thus in a distant and shadowy way seeming to anticipate the possibility of working geometrical problems by a more general mode of analysis. He will remark with interest on the backward state of solid geometry, which, alas! was not encouraged by the aid of the State in the age of Plato; and he will recognize the grasp of Plato’s mind in his ability to conceive of one science of solids in motion including the earth as well as the heavens,—not forgetting to notice the intimation to which allusion has been already made, that besides astronomy and harmonics the science of solids in motion may have other applications. Still more will he be struck with the comprehensiveness of view which led Plato, at a time when these sciences hardly existed, to say that they must be studied in relation to one another, and to the idea of good, or common principle of truth and being. But he will also see (and perhaps without surprise) that in that stage of physical and mathematical knowledge, Plato has fallen into the error of supposing that he can construct the heavens a priori by mathematical problems, and determine the principles of harmony irrespective of the adaptation of sounds to the human ear. The illusion was a natural one in that age and country. The simplicity and certainty of astronomy and harmonics seemed to contrast with the variation and complexity of the world of sense; hence the circumstance that there was some elementary basis of fact, some measurement of distance or time or vibrations on which they must ultimately rest, was overlooked by him. The modern predecessors of Newton fell into errors equally great; and Plato can hardly be said to have been very far wrong, or may even claim a sort of prophetic insight into the subject, when we consider that the greater part of astronomy at the present day consists of abstract dynamics, by the help of which most astronomical discoveries have been made.

The modern mathematician will easily relate to Plato’s appreciation for the nature of pure mathematics. He might agree by saying: Let’s set aside the cosmos and focus on the beauty of numbers and shapes for their own sake. He’s likely to downplay their practical applications in the arts. He’ll notice that Plato envisions geometry without the need for physical figures, hinting at an early idea of solving geometric problems through a broader analytical approach. He will find it interesting to see how primitive solid geometry was back then, which, unfortunately, didn’t receive support from the State during Plato’s era; he will appreciate Plato’s ability to conceive a single science that includes solids in motion, accounting for both the earth and the stars—while also considering the suggestion that, in addition to astronomy and harmonics, the study of solids in motion might have other applications. Additionally, he will be impressed by Plato’s far-reaching perspective, especially at a time when these sciences were barely developed, suggesting that they should be studied in relation to each other and the concept of the good, or a common principle of truth and existence. However, he will also recognize (perhaps without surprise) that in that period of physical and mathematical understanding, Plato mistakenly believed he could construct the cosmos a priori through mathematical problems and define the principles of harmony without considering how sounds relate to the human ear. This misconception was a natural one for his time and place. The straightforwardness and certainty of astronomy and harmonics stood in stark contrast to the variety and complexity of the sensory world; thus, he overlooked the basic factual foundations, such as measurements of distance, time, or vibrations, that they should have rested upon. The early thinkers before Newton made similarly significant errors; and when we think about it, Plato was not very far off—or may even have shown a kind of prophetic understanding—considering that most of modern astronomy involves abstract dynamics, which have played a crucial role in many astronomical discoveries.

The metaphysical philosopher from his point of view recognizes mathematics as an instrument of education,—which strengthens the power of attention, developes the sense of order and the faculty of construction, and enables the mind to grasp under simple formulae the quantitative differences of physical phenomena. But while acknowledging their value in education, he sees also that they have no connexion with our higher moral and intellectual ideas. In the attempt which Plato makes to connect them, we easily trace the influences of ancient Pythagorean notions. There is no reason to suppose that he is speaking of the ideal numbers; but he is describing numbers which are pure abstractions, to which he assigns a real and separate existence, which, as ‘the teachers of the art’ (meaning probably the Pythagoreans) would have affirmed, repel all attempts at subdivision, and in which unity and every other number are conceived of as absolute. The truth and certainty of numbers, when thus disengaged from phenomena, gave them a kind of sacredness in the eyes of an ancient philosopher. Nor is it easy to say how far ideas of order and fixedness may have had a moral and elevating influence on the minds of men, ‘who,’ in the words of the Timaeus, ‘might learn to regulate their erring lives according to them.’ It is worthy of remark that the old Pythagorean ethical symbols still exist as figures of speech among ourselves. And those who in modern times see the world pervaded by universal law, may also see an anticipation of this last word of modern philosophy in the Platonic idea of good, which is the source and measure of all things, and yet only an abstraction (Philebus).

The metaphysical philosopher recognizes mathematics as a tool for education, which enhances focus, develops a sense of order and construction, and helps the mind to understand the quantitative differences in physical phenomena through simple formulas. However, while he acknowledges their educational value, he also realizes that they have no connection with our higher moral and intellectual concepts. In Plato's attempt to link them, we can clearly see the influence of ancient Pythagorean ideas. There’s no reason to think he’s talking about ideal numbers; instead, he’s describing numbers that are pure abstractions, which he treats as having real and separate existence. These numbers, according to 'the teachers of the art' (likely the Pythagoreans), resist any attempts at division and view unity and all other numbers as absolute. The truth and certainty of numbers, when separated from phenomena, gave them a kind of sacredness in the eyes of ancient philosophers. It’s also hard to determine how much ideas of order and stability may have had a morally uplifting impact on people, ‘who,’ in the words of the Timaeus, ‘might learn to regulate their erring lives according to them.’ It’s notable that the old Pythagorean ethical symbols still exist as figures of speech in our language today. Those who see the world today as governed by universal laws might also find a precursor to this modern philosophical idea in the Platonic concept of the good, which is the source and measure of all things and yet remains just an abstraction (Philebus).

Two passages seem to require more particular explanations. First, that which relates to the analysis of vision. The difficulty in this passage may be explained, like many others, from differences in the modes of conception prevailing among ancient and modern thinkers. To us, the perceptions of sense are inseparable from the act of the mind which accompanies them. The consciousness of form, colour, distance, is indistinguishable from the simple sensation, which is the medium of them. Whereas to Plato sense is the Heraclitean flux of sense, not the vision of objects in the order in which they actually present themselves to the experienced sight, but as they may be imagined to appear confused and blurred to the half-awakened eye of the infant. The first action of the mind is aroused by the attempt to set in order this chaos, and the reason is required to frame distinct conceptions under which the confused impressions of sense may be arranged. Hence arises the question, ‘What is great, what is small?’ and thus begins the distinction of the visible and the intelligible.

Two sections seem to need a bit more explanation. First, the one about understanding vision. The confusion in this section can be understood, like many others, by looking at the different ways of thinking between ancient and modern ideas. For us, sensory perceptions are tied to the mental processes that go along with them. The awareness of shape, color, and distance can't be separated from the basic sensation that carries them. In contrast, for Plato, sense is like the ever-changing flow of experience; it’s not about seeing objects in the order they appear to our sight but how they might seem blurry and chaotic to the still-developing eye of an infant. The mind's first response is triggered by trying to organize this confusion, and reason is needed to create clear ideas that categorize the mixed sensory impressions. This leads to the question, “What is big, what is small?” and thus starts the distinction between what can be seen and what can be understood.

The second difficulty relates to Plato’s conception of harmonics. Three classes of harmonists are distinguished by him:—first, the Pythagoreans, whom he proposes to consult as in the previous discussion on music he was to consult Damon—they are acknowledged to be masters in the art, but are altogether deficient in the knowledge of its higher import and relation to the good; secondly, the mere empirics, whom Glaucon appears to confuse with them, and whom both he and Socrates ludicrously describe as experimenting by mere auscultation on the intervals of sounds. Both of these fall short in different degrees of the Platonic idea of harmony, which must be studied in a purely abstract way, first by the method of problems, and secondly as a part of universal knowledge in relation to the idea of good.

The second difficulty has to do with Plato’s idea of harmonics. He identifies three types of harmonists: first, the Pythagoreans, whom he suggests consulting just like he planned to consult Damon in the earlier discussion about music—they are recognized as experts in the field, but they completely lack an understanding of its deeper meaning and connection to the good; secondly, the mere empirics, whom Glaucon seems to mix up with the Pythagoreans, and whom both he and Socrates comically describe as just experimenting by listening to the intervals of sounds. Both of these groups fall short in different ways of the Platonic concept of harmony, which needs to be studied in an entirely abstract manner, first through problem-solving and then as part of universal knowledge in connection with the idea of the good.

The allegory has a political as well as a philosophical meaning. The den or cave represents the narrow sphere of politics or law (compare the description of the philosopher and lawyer in the Theaetetus), and the light of the eternal ideas is supposed to exercise a disturbing influence on the minds of those who return to this lower world. In other words, their principles are too wide for practical application; they are looking far away into the past and future, when their business is with the present. The ideal is not easily reduced to the conditions of actual life, and may often be at variance with them. And at first, those who return are unable to compete with the inhabitants of the den in the measurement of the shadows, and are derided and persecuted by them; but after a while they see the things below in far truer proportions than those who have never ascended into the upper world. The difference between the politician turned into a philosopher and the philosopher turned into a politician, is symbolized by the two kinds of disordered eyesight, the one which is experienced by the captive who is transferred from darkness to day, the other, of the heavenly messenger who voluntarily for the good of his fellow-men descends into the den. In what way the brighter light is to dawn on the inhabitants of the lower world, or how the idea of good is to become the guiding principle of politics, is left unexplained by Plato. Like the nature and divisions of dialectic, of which Glaucon impatiently demands to be informed, perhaps he would have said that the explanation could not be given except to a disciple of the previous sciences. (Symposium.)

The allegory has both political and philosophical meanings. The den or cave symbolizes the limited scope of politics or law (compare the portrayal of the philosopher and lawyer in the Theaetetus), and the light of eternal ideas is meant to disturb the minds of those who go back to this lower world. In other words, their principles are too broad for practical use; they are focused too much on the past and future when they should be dealing with the present. The ideal isn’t easily adapted to real life and often conflicts with it. Initially, those who return can’t keep up with the cave's inhabitants in judging the shadows and are mocked and mistreated by them; but eventually, they see things below in a much clearer perspective than those who have never ventured into the upper world. The difference between a politician becoming a philosopher and a philosopher becoming a politician is represented by the two types of impaired vision: one experienced by the captive moving from darkness to light, and the other by the heavenly messenger who willingly descends into the den for the sake of others. How the brighter light will shine on those in the lower world, or how the idea of good will become the guiding principle of politics, remains unexplained by Plato. Like the nature and divisions of dialectic, which Glaucon eagerly wants to know about, perhaps he would have said that the explanation could only be provided to a student of the earlier sciences. (Symposium.)

Many illustrations of this part of the Republic may be found in modern Politics and in daily life. For among ourselves, too, there have been two sorts of Politicians or Statesmen, whose eyesight has become disordered in two different ways. First, there have been great men who, in the language of Burke, ‘have been too much given to general maxims,’ who, like J.S. Mill or Burke himself, have been theorists or philosophers before they were politicians, or who, having been students of history, have allowed some great historical parallel, such as the English Revolution of 1688, or possibly Athenian democracy or Roman Imperialism, to be the medium through which they viewed contemporary events. Or perhaps the long projecting shadow of some existing institution may have darkened their vision. The Church of the future, the Commonwealth of the future, the Society of the future, have so absorbed their minds, that they are unable to see in their true proportions the Politics of to-day. They have been intoxicated with great ideas, such as liberty, or equality, or the greatest happiness of the greatest number, or the brotherhood of humanity, and they no longer care to consider how these ideas must be limited in practice or harmonized with the conditions of human life. They are full of light, but the light to them has become only a sort of luminous mist or blindness. Almost every one has known some enthusiastic half-educated person, who sees everything at false distances, and in erroneous proportions.

Many examples of this part of the Republic can be found in modern politics and everyday life. There have been two types of politicians or statesmen among us whose perspectives have become distorted in different ways. First, there are great individuals who, in Burke’s words, "have been too much given to general maxims." These people, like J.S. Mill or Burke himself, have been theorists or philosophers before becoming politicians, or, being students of history, they have let significant historical events, such as the English Revolution of 1688, Athenian democracy, or Roman Imperialism, cloud their view of contemporary matters. Alternatively, the overwhelming influence of some existing institution might have obscured their vision. The future Church, Commonwealth, or Society has so captivated their thoughts that they cannot see today’s politics in true perspective. They have become enamored with grand ideas like liberty, equality, or the greatest happiness for the greatest number, or the brotherhood of humanity, and they no longer consider how these ideas must be practically limited or aligned with human reality. They are full of insight, but that insight has turned into a kind of blinding haze. Almost everyone has encountered some passionate, partially educated individual who perceives everything at skewed distances and in incorrect proportions.

With this disorder of eyesight may be contrasted another—of those who see not far into the distance, but what is near only; who have been engaged all their lives in a trade or a profession; who are limited to a set or sect of their own. Men of this kind have no universal except their own interests or the interests of their class, no principle but the opinion of persons like themselves, no knowledge of affairs beyond what they pick up in the streets or at their club. Suppose them to be sent into a larger world, to undertake some higher calling, from being tradesmen to turn generals or politicians, from being schoolmasters to become philosophers:—or imagine them on a sudden to receive an inward light which reveals to them for the first time in their lives a higher idea of God and the existence of a spiritual world, by this sudden conversion or change is not their daily life likely to be upset; and on the other hand will not many of their old prejudices and narrownesses still adhere to them long after they have begun to take a more comprehensive view of human things? From familiar examples like these we may learn what Plato meant by the eyesight which is liable to two kinds of disorders.

With this vision disorder, we can compare another type—those who can only see what’s close by, not far away; who have spent their entire lives in a trade or profession; who are confined to their own group or community. People like this have no broader perspective beyond their own interests or those of their class, no principles except the opinions of others like them, and no understanding of the world beyond what they hear on the streets or at their clubs. Imagine if they were suddenly thrust into a larger world, tasked with taking on a higher role—changing from tradespeople to generals or politicians, or from being teachers to becoming philosophers. Or picture them experiencing an awakening that finally allows them to grasp a greater understanding of God and the existence of a spiritual world. Wouldn’t this sudden change disrupt their daily lives? And wouldn’t many of their old prejudices and narrow-minded views cling to them long after they began to adopt a broader perspective on humanity? From common examples like these, we can understand what Plato meant by the eyesight that can be affected by two different kinds of disorders.

Nor have we any difficulty in drawing a parallel between the young Athenian in the fifth century before Christ who became unsettled by new ideas, and the student of a modern University who has been the subject of a similar ‘aufklärung.’ We too observe that when young men begin to criticise customary beliefs, or to analyse the constitution of human nature, they are apt to lose hold of solid principle (ἅπαν τὸ βέβαιον αὐτῶν ἐξοίχεται). They are like trees which have been frequently transplanted. The earth about them is loose, and they have no roots reaching far into the soil. They ‘light upon every flower,’ following their own wayward wills, or because the wind blows them. They catch opinions, as diseases are caught—when they are in the air. Borne hither and thither, ‘they speedily fall into beliefs’ the opposite of those in which they were brought up. They hardly retain the distinction of right and wrong; they seem to think one thing as good as another. They suppose themselves to be searching after truth when they are playing the game of ‘follow my leader.’ They fall in love ‘at first sight’ with paradoxes respecting morality, some fancy about art, some novelty or eccentricity in religion, and like lovers they are so absorbed for a time in their new notion that they can think of nothing else. The resolution of some philosophical or theological question seems to them more interesting and important than any substantial knowledge of literature or science or even than a good life. Like the youth in the Philebus, they are ready to discourse to any one about a new philosophy. They are generally the disciples of some eminent professor or sophist, whom they rather imitate than understand. They may be counted happy if in later years they retain some of the simple truths which they acquired in early education, and which they may, perhaps, find to be worth all the rest. Such is the picture which Plato draws and which we only reproduce, partly in his own words, of the dangers which beset youth in times of transition, when old opinions are fading away and the new are not yet firmly established. Their condition is ingeniously compared by him to that of a supposititious son, who has made the discovery that his reputed parents are not his real ones, and, in consequence, they have lost their authority over him.

We can easily see a similarity between the young Athenian in the fifth century BC who was unsettled by new ideas and a modern university student experiencing a similar awakening. We notice that when young people start to question traditional beliefs or analyze human nature, they often lose their grip on solid principles. They resemble trees that have been frequently transplanted: the ground around them is loose, and their roots don’t go deep into the soil. They get distracted by every idea that comes their way, following their whims or being swayed by the breeze. They adopt opinions like catching a disease—when those ideas are in the air. Being tossed around, they quickly adopt beliefs that contradict what they grew up believing. They struggle to distinguish right from wrong, thinking one idea is just as good as another. They believe they are in search of truth when they're really just playing the game of “follow the leader.” They fall in love with new ideas about morality, art, or unusual religious concepts at first sight, and like infatuated lovers, they become so absorbed in their new beliefs that nothing else can hold their attention. Solving a philosophical or theological question seems more fascinating and essential to them than gaining a solid understanding of literature, science, or even living a good life. Like the youth in the Philebus, they’re eager to discuss new philosophies with anyone. They often become followers of some notable professor or sophist, imitating them rather than truly understanding their ideas. They might consider themselves lucky if they hold on to some of the simple truths they learned in childhood, which may turn out to be more valuable than anything else. This is the picture that Plato paints, which we reflect back, partly in his own words, of the dangers that threaten young people during periods of change, when old beliefs are fading and new ones have not yet taken root. He cleverly compares their situation to that of a hypothetical son who discovers that his supposed parents aren’t his biological ones, resulting in a loss of their authority over him.

The distinction between the mathematician and the dialectician is also noticeable. Plato is very well aware that the faculty of the mathematician is quite distinct from the higher philosophical sense which recognizes and combines first principles. The contempt which he expresses for distinctions of words, the danger of involuntary falsehood, the apology which Socrates makes for his earnestness of speech, are highly characteristic of the Platonic style and mode of thought. The quaint notion that if Palamedes was the inventor of number Agamemnon could not have counted his feet; the art by which we are made to believe that this State of ours is not a dream only; the gravity with which the first step is taken in the actual creation of the State, namely, the sending out of the city all who had arrived at ten years of age, in order to expedite the business of education by a generation, are also truly Platonic. (For the last, compare the passage at the end of the third book, in which he expects the lie about the earthborn men to be believed in the second generation.)

The difference between the mathematician and the dialectician is also clear. Plato recognizes that the mathematician’s skill is quite separate from the deeper philosophical understanding that identifies and connects fundamental principles. His disdain for the distinctions of words, the risk of unintentional falsehood, and the apology that Socrates offers for his serious way of speaking are very telling of the Platonic style and way of thinking. The peculiar idea that if Palamedes invented numbers, Agamemnon couldn’t have counted his own feet; the technique that convinces us that our State is not just an illusion; the seriousness with which the first action in creating the State is taken—namely, sending away all who have reached ten years of age to expedite education for future generations—are also genuinely Platonic. (For the last point, compare the passage at the end of the third book, where he anticipates that the story about the earthborn men will be accepted in the second generation.)

BOOK VIII. And so we have arrived at the conclusion, that in the perfect State wives and children are to be in common; and the education and pursuits of men and women, both in war and peace, are to be common, and kings are to be philosophers and warriors, and the soldiers of the State are to live together, having all things in common; and they are to be warrior athletes, receiving no pay but only their food, from the other citizens. Now let us return to the point at which we digressed. ‘That is easily done,’ he replied: ‘You were speaking of the State which you had constructed, and of the individual who answered to this, both of whom you affirmed to be good; and you said that of inferior States there were four forms and four individuals corresponding to them, which although deficient in various degrees, were all of them worth inspecting with a view to determining the relative happiness or misery of the best or worst man. Then Polemarchus and Adeimantus interrupted you, and this led to another argument,—and so here we are.’ Suppose that we put ourselves again in the same position, and do you repeat your question. ‘I should like to know of what constitutions you were speaking?’ Besides the perfect State there are only four of any note in Hellas:—first, the famous Lacedaemonian or Cretan commonwealth; secondly, oligarchy, a State full of evils; thirdly, democracy, which follows next in order; fourthly, tyranny, which is the disease or death of all government. Now, States are not made of ‘oak and rock,’ but of flesh and blood; and therefore as there are five States there must be five human natures in individuals, which correspond to them. And first, there is the ambitious nature, which answers to the Lacedaemonian State; secondly, the oligarchical nature; thirdly, the democratical; and fourthly, the tyrannical. This last will have to be compared with the perfectly just, which is the fifth, that we may know which is the happier, and then we shall be able to determine whether the argument of Thrasymachus or our own is the more convincing. And as before we began with the State and went on to the individual, so now, beginning with timocracy, let us go on to the timocratical man, and then proceed to the other forms of government, and the individuals who answer to them.

BOOK VIII. So, we've reached the conclusion that in the ideal State, wives and children should be shared; men and women should have the same education and roles, both in war and peace; kings should be both philosophers and warriors; and the soldiers of the State should live together, sharing everything and acting as warrior athletes, receiving only food from the other citizens. Now, let's go back to where we strayed from the topic. “That’s easy,” he replied: “You were talking about the State you built and the person who corresponds to it, both of which you claimed are good. You said there are four lesser forms of States and four individuals that go with them, which, while all flawed to some degree, are worth examining to assess the relative happiness or misery of the best and worst individuals. Then Polemarchus and Adeimantus interrupted you, which led to a different discussion—and here we are.” Let’s put ourselves back in the same position, and you can repeat your question. “I’d like to know which forms of government you were talking about?” Besides the ideal State, there are only four notable ones in Greece: first, the renowned Lacedaemonian or Cretan commonwealth; second, oligarchy, a State filled with problems; third, democracy, which comes next; and fourth, tyranny, the sickness or death of all governments. Now, States aren't made of “oak and rock,” but of flesh and blood; therefore, since there are five States, there must be five human natures in individuals that correspond to them. First, there’s the ambitious nature that aligns with the Lacedaemonian State; second, the oligarchical nature; third, the democratic; and fourth, the tyrannical. This last one will need to be compared with the perfectly just individual, which is the fifth, so we can see which is happier and then determine whether Thrasymachus's argument or our own is more convincing. Just as we started with the State and moved to the individual, let’s now start with timocracy, move on to the timocratical person, and then proceed to the other forms of government and the individuals that match them.

But how did timocracy arise out of the perfect State? Plainly, like all changes of government, from division in the rulers. But whence came division? ‘Sing, heavenly Muses,’ as Homer says;—let them condescend to answer us, as if we were children, to whom they put on a solemn face in jest. ‘And what will they say?’ They will say that human things are fated to decay, and even the perfect State will not escape from this law of destiny, when ‘the wheel comes full circle’ in a period short or long. Plants or animals have times of fertility and sterility, which the intelligence of rulers because alloyed by sense will not enable them to ascertain, and children will be born out of season. For whereas divine creations are in a perfect cycle or number, the human creation is in a number which declines from perfection, and has four terms and three intervals of numbers, increasing, waning, assimilating, dissimilating, and yet perfectly commensurate with each other. The base of the number with a fourth added (or which is 3:4), multiplied by five and cubed, gives two harmonies:—the first a square number, which is a hundred times the base (or a hundred times a hundred); the second, an oblong, being a hundred squares of the rational diameter of a figure the side of which is five, subtracting one from each square or two perfect squares from all, and adding a hundred cubes of three. This entire number is geometrical and contains the rule or law of generation. When this law is neglected marriages will be unpropitious; the inferior offspring who are then born will in time become the rulers; the State will decline, and education fall into decay; gymnastic will be preferred to music, and the gold and silver and brass and iron will form a chaotic mass—thus division will arise. Such is the Muses’ answer to our question. ‘And a true answer, of course:—but what more have they to say?’ They say that the two races, the iron and brass, and the silver and gold, will draw the State different ways;—the one will take to trade and moneymaking, and the others, having the true riches and not caring for money, will resist them: the contest will end in a compromise; they will agree to have private property, and will enslave their fellow-citizens who were once their friends and nurturers. But they will retain their warlike character, and will be chiefly occupied in fighting and exercising rule. Thus arises timocracy, which is intermediate between aristocracy and oligarchy.

But how did timocracy emerge from the ideal State? Clearly, like all government changes, it came from a division among the rulers. But where did that division come from? “Sing, heavenly Muses,” as Homer would say; let them humor us and respond as if we were children, putting on a serious face for fun. “And what will they say?” They will say that human affairs are destined to decline, and even the ideal State won’t escape this fate when “the wheel turns full circle,” whether in a short or long time. Plants and animals have times of growth and decline, which the rulers' understanding, muddied by their senses, won't allow them to recognize, leading to children being born out of season. Divine creations exist in a perfect cycle or number, while human creation exists in a form that moves away from perfection, with four phases and three intervals of numbers: increasing, declining, adapting, and separating, yet all perfectly balanced with each other. The base number with an added fourth (which is 3:4), multiplied by five and cubed, yields two harmonies: the first is a square number, which is a hundred times the base (or a hundred times a hundred); the second is a rectangle, which consists of a hundred squares based on the rational diameter of a figure with a side length of five, subtracting one from each square or two perfect squares from all of them, and adding a hundred cubes of three. This entire number is geometric and contains the rule or law of generation. When this law is ignored, marriages will be unlucky; the inferior offspring born then will eventually rise to power; the State will decline, and education will deteriorate; physical training will take precedence over music, and gold, silver, brass, and iron will become a chaotic mixture—thus division will arise. Such is the Muses’ answer to our question. “And a true answer, of course: but what else do they have to say?” They say that the two groups, the iron and brass, and the silver and gold, will pull the State in different directions; one will turn to trade and wealth accumulation, while the others, who possess true wealth and disregard money, will resist them: the conflict will end in a compromise; they will agree to have private property and will enslave their fellow citizens, who were once their friends and caretakers. However, they will maintain their warrior spirit and will mainly focus on fighting and exercising power. Thus, timocracy arises, which lies between aristocracy and oligarchy.

The new form of government resembles the ideal in obedience to rulers and contempt for trade, and having common meals, and in devotion to warlike and gymnastic exercises. But corruption has crept into philosophy, and simplicity of character, which was once her note, is now looked for only in the military class. Arts of war begin to prevail over arts of peace; the ruler is no longer a philosopher; as in oligarchies, there springs up among them an extravagant love of gain—get another man’s and save your own, is their principle; and they have dark places in which they hoard their gold and silver, for the use of their women and others; they take their pleasures by stealth, like boys who are running away from their father—the law; and their education is not inspired by the Muse, but imposed by the strong arm of power. The leading characteristic of this State is party spirit and ambition.

The new government is similar to the ideal in its obedience to leaders and disdain for trade, shared meals, and dedication to military and athletic training. However, corruption has entered philosophy, and the simplicity of character that was once its hallmark is now only found in the military class. The arts of war are starting to overshadow the arts of peace; the ruler is no longer a philosopher. As in oligarchies, there develops an excessive love of profit—"take from others and protect your own" is their motto. They stash away gold and silver in hidden places for the benefit of their women and others; they seek pleasure in secret, like kids sneaking away from their father—the law. Their education is not inspired by the Muse but enforced by the power of authority. The main feature of this society is factionalism and ambition.

And what manner of man answers to such a State? ‘In love of contention,’ replied Adeimantus, ‘he will be like our friend Glaucon.’ In that respect, perhaps, but not in others. He is self-asserting and ill-educated, yet fond of literature, although not himself a speaker,—fierce with slaves, but obedient to rulers, a lover of power and honour, which he hopes to gain by deeds of arms,—fond, too, of gymnastics and of hunting. As he advances in years he grows avaricious, for he has lost philosophy, which is the only saviour and guardian of men. His origin is as follows:—His father is a good man dwelling in an ill-ordered State, who has retired from politics in order that he may lead a quiet life. His mother is angry at her loss of precedence among other women; she is disgusted at her husband’s selfishness, and she expatiates to her son on the unmanliness and indolence of his father. The old family servant takes up the tale, and says to the youth:—‘When you grow up you must be more of a man than your father.’ All the world are agreed that he who minds his own business is an idiot, while a busybody is highly honoured and esteemed. The young man compares this spirit with his father’s words and ways, and as he is naturally well disposed, although he has suffered from evil influences, he rests at a middle point and becomes ambitious and a lover of honour.

And what kind of man responds to such a State? “In his love for conflict,” Adeimantus replied, “he’ll be like our friend Glaucon.” In that way, maybe, but not in others. He is assertive and poorly educated, yet loves literature, even though he’s not a speaker—he’s tough with slaves but obedient to rulers, driven by a desire for power and honor, which he hopes to achieve through military feats—he also enjoys sports and hunting. As he gets older, he becomes greedy, having lost touch with philosophy, which is the only true savior and protector of people. His background is as follows: his father is a decent man living in a poorly run State who has stepped back from politics to lead a peaceful life. His mother is upset about losing her status among other women; she is frustrated with her husband’s selfishness and lectures her son on his father’s weakness and laziness. The old family servant adds to the narrative, saying to the young man: “When you grow up, you need to be more of a man than your father.” Everyone agrees that someone who minds their own business is foolish, while a meddler is greatly respected and admired. The young man weighs this attitude against his father’s words and actions, and, being naturally well-meaning despite bad influences, he settles in the middle and becomes ambitious and eager for honor.

And now let us set another city over against another man. The next form of government is oligarchy, in which the rule is of the rich only; nor is it difficult to see how such a State arises. The decline begins with the possession of gold and silver; illegal modes of expenditure are invented; one draws another on, and the multitude are infected; riches outweigh virtue; lovers of money take the place of lovers of honour; misers of politicians; and, in time, political privileges are confined by law to the rich, who do not shrink from violence in order to effect their purposes.

And now let’s compare one city to another. The next type of government is oligarchy, where only the wealthy have power; it’s not hard to see how this kind of state comes about. The decline starts with the accumulation of gold and silver; illegal spending habits are created; one person influences another, and soon the masses are affected; wealth becomes more important than virtue; money lovers replace those who value honor; stingy politicians emerge; and, over time, legal political rights are limited to the rich, who won’t hesitate to use violence to achieve their goals.

Thus much of the origin,—let us next consider the evils of oligarchy. Would a man who wanted to be safe on a voyage take a bad pilot because he was rich, or refuse a good one because he was poor? And does not the analogy apply still more to the State? And there are yet greater evils: two nations are struggling together in one—the rich and the poor; and the rich dare not put arms into the hands of the poor, and are unwilling to pay for defenders out of their own money. And have we not already condemned that State in which the same persons are warriors as well as shopkeepers? The greatest evil of all is that a man may sell his property and have no place in the State; while there is one class which has enormous wealth, the other is entirely destitute. But observe that these destitutes had not really any more of the governing nature in them when they were rich than now that they are poor; they were miserable spendthrifts always. They are the drones of the hive; only whereas the actual drone is unprovided by nature with a sting, the two-legged things whom we call drones are some of them without stings and some of them have dreadful stings; in other words, there are paupers and there are rogues. These are never far apart; and in oligarchical cities, where nearly everybody is a pauper who is not a ruler, you will find abundance of both. And this evil state of society originates in bad education and bad government.

So much for the origin—now let’s look at the problems of oligarchy. Would someone wanting to stay safe on a journey choose a bad pilot just because he’s rich, or refuse a good one just because he’s poor? Doesn’t the same logic apply even more to a society? There are even bigger issues at play: two groups are fighting within one nation—the rich and the poor. The rich are afraid to arm the poor and are reluctant to pay for their protection. Have we not already judged that society where the same people are both soldiers and merchants? The worst issue of all is that a person might sell their property and have no role in society at all, while one class holds immense wealth and the other is completely broke. But note that these poor people didn’t possess any more governing potential when they were wealthy than they do now that they’re poor; they were always reckless spenders. They are like the drones in a hive; however, while the actual drone lacks a sting by nature, the two-legged beings we refer to as drones can either be harmless or dangerous—there are both beggars and thieves. These two groups are never far apart, and in oligarchical cities, where nearly everyone who isn’t a ruler is a beggar, you’ll find plenty of both. This troubled state of society stems from poor education and bad governance.

Like State, like man,—the change in the latter begins with the representative of timocracy; he walks at first in the ways of his father, who may have been a statesman, or general, perhaps; and presently he sees him ‘fallen from his high estate,’ the victim of informers, dying in prison or exile, or by the hand of the executioner. The lesson which he thus receives, makes him cautious; he leaves politics, represses his pride, and saves pence. Avarice is enthroned as his bosom’s lord, and assumes the style of the Great King; the rational and spirited elements sit humbly on the ground at either side, the one immersed in calculation, the other absorbed in the admiration of wealth. The love of honour turns to love of money; the conversion is instantaneous. The man is mean, saving, toiling, the slave of one passion which is the master of the rest: Is he not the very image of the State? He has had no education, or he would never have allowed the blind god of riches to lead the dance within him. And being uneducated he will have many slavish desires, some beggarly, some knavish, breeding in his soul. If he is the trustee of an orphan, and has the power to defraud, he will soon prove that he is not without the will, and that his passions are only restrained by fear and not by reason. Hence he leads a divided existence; in which the better desires mostly prevail. But when he is contending for prizes and other distinctions, he is afraid to incur a loss which is to be repaid only by barren honour; in time of war he fights with a small part of his resources, and usually keeps his money and loses the victory.

Just like the state, so goes the man. The change in the latter starts with the representative of a timocracy; he initially follows in his father's footsteps, who might have been a politician or a general. Soon enough, he sees his father ‘fallen from his high position,’ a victim of informers, dying in prison or exile, or at the hands of an executioner. The lesson he learns makes him cautious; he steps away from politics, suppresses his pride, and saves his money. Greed becomes his closest companion, taking on the role of the Great King; the rational and spirited parts of him sit humbly by, one deep in calculations, the other absorbed in admiration of wealth. His love for honor turns into a love for money; the switch is instantaneous. He becomes stingy, frugal, and hardworking, ruled by one passion that dominates all the others: isn't he just a reflection of the state? He lacks an education, or else he wouldn’t let the blind god of riches control him. Being uneducated, he harbors many servile desires, some petty and some deceitful, festering in his soul. If he is the guardian of an orphan and has the ability to steal from them, he will quickly show that he lacks integrity and that his passions are only held back by fear, not by reason. Thus, he lives a divided life; in which his better desires often win out. However, when he competes for rewards and other honors, he is afraid of losing something that can only be compensated by empty prestige; in wartime, he fights with only a fraction of his resources, typically hoarding his money and losing the battle.

Next comes democracy and the democratic man, out of oligarchy and the oligarchical man. Insatiable avarice is the ruling passion of an oligarchy; and they encourage expensive habits in order that they may gain by the ruin of extravagant youth. Thus men of family often lose their property or rights of citizenship; but they remain in the city, full of hatred against the new owners of their estates and ripe for revolution. The usurer with stooping walk pretends not to see them; he passes by, and leaves his sting—that is, his money—in some other victim; and many a man has to pay the parent or principal sum multiplied into a family of children, and is reduced into a state of dronage by him. The only way of diminishing the evil is either to limit a man in his use of his property, or to insist that he shall lend at his own risk. But the ruling class do not want remedies; they care only for money, and are as careless of virtue as the poorest of the citizens. Now there are occasions on which the governors and the governed meet together,—at festivals, on a journey, voyaging or fighting. The sturdy pauper finds that in the hour of danger he is not despised; he sees the rich man puffing and panting, and draws the conclusion which he privately imparts to his companions,—‘that our people are not good for much;’ and as a sickly frame is made ill by a mere touch from without, or sometimes without external impulse is ready to fall to pieces of itself, so from the least cause, or with none at all, the city falls ill and fights a battle for life or death. And democracy comes into power when the poor are the victors, killing some and exiling some, and giving equal shares in the government to all the rest.

Next comes democracy and the democratic individual, emerging from oligarchy and the oligarchical individual. Unending greed is the dominant drive in an oligarchy; they promote lavish lifestyles so they can profit from the destruction of reckless youth. As a result, families often lose their wealth or citizenship rights; however, they stay in the city, full of resentment toward the new owners of their properties and ready for rebellion. The moneylender with a hunched back pretends not to notice them; he walks past and leaves his burden—his money—on another victim, and many individuals end up paying back the principal amount multiplied by a family of children, reducing them to a state of servitude. The only ways to lessen this harm are either to restrict how someone uses their property or to require them to lend at their own risk. But the ruling class isn’t interested in solutions; they only care about money and are as indifferent to virtue as the poorest citizens. There are moments when the rulers and the ruled come together—during festivals, on travels, while sailing, or in battle. The sturdy poor person discovers that in moments of danger, he is not looked down upon; he observes the wealthy man struggling to keep up and concludes, which he privately shares with his friends, that "our people aren’t worth much." Just like a frail body can be easily harmed by a small outside touch or might collapse without any external cause, the city can become sick and fight a struggle for survival over the slightest issue or sometimes none at all. Democracy rises to power when the poor prevail, killing some and exiling others, distributing equal shares of power in government to everyone else.

The manner of life in such a State is that of democrats; there is freedom and plainness of speech, and every man does what is right in his own eyes, and has his own way of life. Hence arise the most various developments of character; the State is like a piece of embroidery of which the colours and figures are the manners of men, and there are many who, like women and children, prefer this variety to real beauty and excellence. The State is not one but many, like a bazaar at which you can buy anything. The great charm is, that you may do as you like; you may govern if you like, let it alone if you like; go to war and make peace if you feel disposed, and all quite irrespective of anybody else. When you condemn men to death they remain alive all the same; a gentleman is desired to go into exile, and he stalks about the streets like a hero; and nobody sees him or cares for him. Observe, too, how grandly Democracy sets her foot upon all our fine theories of education,—how little she cares for the training of her statesmen! The only qualification which she demands is the profession of patriotism. Such is democracy;—a pleasing, lawless, various sort of government, distributing equality to equals and unequals alike.

The way of life in such a state is that of democrats; there is freedom and straightforwardness in speech, and everyone does what they think is right and lives their own way. This leads to a wide variety of character developments; the state is like a piece of embroidery, where the colors and patterns represent the behaviors of people, and many, like women and children, prefer this diversity over true beauty and excellence. The state is not one but many, similar to a marketplace where you can find anything. The great appeal is that you can do as you wish; you can govern if you want, ignore it if you prefer, go to war or make peace as you feel like, completely independent of anyone else. When you sentence someone to death, they still stay alive; a gentleman is told to go into exile, and he walks the streets like a hero, unnoticed and uncared for. Notice too how Democracy boldly disregards all our fine theories of education—how little she values the training of her leaders! The only qualification she demands is a show of patriotism. This is democracy—a delightful, lawless, varied type of government, offering equality to both equals and those who are not.

Let us now inspect the individual democrat; and first, as in the case of the State, we will trace his antecedents. He is the son of a miserly oligarch, and has been taught by him to restrain the love of unnecessary pleasures. Perhaps I ought to explain this latter term:—Necessary pleasures are those which are good, and which we cannot do without; unnecessary pleasures are those which do no good, and of which the desire might be eradicated by early training. For example, the pleasures of eating and drinking are necessary and healthy, up to a certain point; beyond that point they are alike hurtful to body and mind, and the excess may be avoided. When in excess, they may be rightly called expensive pleasures, in opposition to the useful ones. And the drone, as we called him, is the slave of these unnecessary pleasures and desires, whereas the miserly oligarch is subject only to the necessary.

Let's take a look at the individual democrat; and first, just like with the State, we'll look at his background. He's the son of a stingy oligarch, who has taught him to control his desire for unnecessary pleasures. I should probably clarify what I mean by this: necessary pleasures are those that are good for us and that we can't live without; unnecessary pleasures are those that provide no real benefit and that could be eliminated through early education. For instance, the pleasures of eating and drinking are necessary and healthy, but only up to a point; beyond that point, they become harmful to both body and mind, and we can avoid the excess. When indulged in excessively, they can justifiably be called expensive pleasures, compared to the useful ones. And the slacker, as we referred to him, is a slave to these unnecessary pleasures and desires, while the stingy oligarch is only focused on the necessary.

The oligarch changes into the democrat in the following manner:—The youth who has had a miserly bringing up, gets a taste of the drone’s honey; he meets with wild companions, who introduce him to every new pleasure. As in the State, so in the individual, there are allies on both sides, temptations from without and passions from within; there is reason also and external influences of parents and friends in alliance with the oligarchical principle; and the two factions are in violent conflict with one another. Sometimes the party of order prevails, but then again new desires and new disorders arise, and the whole mob of passions gets possession of the Acropolis, that is to say, the soul, which they find void and unguarded by true words and works. Falsehoods and illusions ascend to take their place; the prodigal goes back into the country of the Lotophagi or drones, and openly dwells there. And if any offer of alliance or parley of individual elders comes from home, the false spirits shut the gates of the castle and permit no one to enter,—there is a battle, and they gain the victory; and straightway making alliance with the desires, they banish modesty, which they call folly, and send temperance over the border. When the house has been swept and garnished, they dress up the exiled vices, and, crowning them with garlands, bring them back under new names. Insolence they call good breeding, anarchy freedom, waste magnificence, impudence courage. Such is the process by which the youth passes from the necessary pleasures to the unnecessary. After a while he divides his time impartially between them; and perhaps, when he gets older and the violence of passion has abated, he restores some of the exiles and lives in a sort of equilibrium, indulging first one pleasure and then another; and if reason comes and tells him that some pleasures are good and honourable, and others bad and vile, he shakes his head and says that he can make no distinction between them. Thus he lives in the fancy of the hour; sometimes he takes to drink, and then he turns abstainer; he practises in the gymnasium or he does nothing at all; then again he would be a philosopher or a politician; or again, he would be a warrior or a man of business; he is

The oligarch becomes a democrat in the following way: The young person, raised in a strict environment, gets a taste of indulgence; he meets wild friends who introduce him to all sorts of new pleasures. Just like in society, there are influences on both sides—outside temptations and inner desires; there is also reason, along with external pressures from parents and friends supporting the oligarchical way; and the two sides are in constant conflict. Sometimes the side of order wins, but then new desires and chaos emerge, and a whole swarm of passions seizes control of the Acropolis, which means the soul, finding it empty and unprotected by honesty and action. Lies and delusions take over; the prodigal returns to the land of indulgence and immerses himself there. And if any attempts at reconciliation from older individuals come from home, the false spirits close the gates and let no one in—there’s a battle, and they win; quickly allying with the desires, they banish modesty, calling it foolish, and send temperance away. Once the house has been cleaned and decorated, they dress up the exiled vices, giving them new names and crowns. Insolence becomes good breeding, chaos is labeled freedom, waste is seen as magnificence, and impudence is called courage. This is how a young person moves from necessary pleasures to unnecessary ones. Eventually, he splits his time fairly between them; and perhaps as he ages and the intensity of his passions lessens, he brings back some of the exiled pleasures and lives in a sort of balance, indulging first in one pleasure and then in another; and if reason comes along and tells him that some pleasures are good and honorable, while others are bad and shameful, he shakes his head and claims he can't tell them apart. Thus, he lives in the moment; sometimes he drinks, then he abstains; he exercises in the gym or does nothing; at other times he aspires to be a philosopher or a politician, or a warrior or a businessperson; he is

‘Every thing by starts and nothing long.’

‘Everything begins but nothing lasts long.’

There remains still the finest and fairest of all men and all States—tyranny and the tyrant. Tyranny springs from democracy much as democracy springs from oligarchy. Both arise from excess; the one from excess of wealth, the other from excess of freedom. ‘The great natural good of life,’ says the democrat, ‘is freedom.’ And this exclusive love of freedom and regardlessness of everything else, is the cause of the change from democracy to tyranny. The State demands the strong wine of freedom, and unless her rulers give her a plentiful draught, punishes and insults them; equality and fraternity of governors and governed is the approved principle. Anarchy is the law, not of the State only, but of private houses, and extends even to the animals. Father and son, citizen and foreigner, teacher and pupil, old and young, are all on a level; fathers and teachers fear their sons and pupils, and the wisdom of the young man is a match for the elder, and the old imitate the jaunty manners of the young because they are afraid of being thought morose. Slaves are on a level with their masters and mistresses, and there is no difference between men and women. Nay, the very animals in a democratic State have a freedom which is unknown in other places. The she-dogs are as good as their she-mistresses, and horses and asses march along with dignity and run their noses against anybody who comes in their way. ‘That has often been my experience.’ At last the citizens become so sensitive that they cannot endure the yoke of laws, written or unwritten; they would have no man call himself their master. Such is the glorious beginning of things out of which tyranny springs. ‘Glorious, indeed; but what is to follow?’ The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; for there is a law of contraries; the excess of freedom passes into the excess of slavery, and the greater the freedom the greater the slavery. You will remember that in the oligarchy were found two classes—rogues and paupers, whom we compared to drones with and without stings. These two classes are to the State what phlegm and bile are to the human body; and the State-physician, or legislator, must get rid of them, just as the bee-master keeps the drones out of the hive. Now in a democracy, too, there are drones, but they are more numerous and more dangerous than in the oligarchy; there they are inert and unpractised, here they are full of life and animation; and the keener sort speak and act, while the others buzz about the bema and prevent their opponents from being heard. And there is another class in democratic States, of respectable, thriving individuals, who can be squeezed when the drones have need of their possessions; there is moreover a third class, who are the labourers and the artisans, and they make up the mass of the people. When the people meet, they are omnipotent, but they cannot be brought together unless they are attracted by a little honey; and the rich are made to supply the honey, of which the demagogues keep the greater part themselves, giving a taste only to the mob. Their victims attempt to resist; they are driven mad by the stings of the drones, and so become downright oligarchs in self-defence. Then follow informations and convictions for treason. The people have some protector whom they nurse into greatness, and from this root the tree of tyranny springs. The nature of the change is indicated in the old fable of the temple of Zeus Lycaeus, which tells how he who tastes human flesh mixed up with the flesh of other victims will turn into a wolf. Even so the protector, who tastes human blood, and slays some and exiles others with or without law, who hints at abolition of debts and division of lands, must either perish or become a wolf—that is, a tyrant. Perhaps he is driven out, but he soon comes back from exile; and then if his enemies cannot get rid of him by lawful means, they plot his assassination. Thereupon the friend of the people makes his well-known request to them for a body-guard, which they readily grant, thinking only of his danger and not of their own. Now let the rich man make to himself wings, for he will never run away again if he does not do so then. And the Great Protector, having crushed all his rivals, stands proudly erect in the chariot of State, a full-blown tyrant: Let us enquire into the nature of his happiness.

There still exists the finest and fairest of all people and all governments—tyranny and the tyrant. Tyranny comes from democracy just like democracy comes from oligarchy. Both emerge from excess; one from too much wealth, the other from too much freedom. "The greatest natural good in life," says the democrat, "is freedom." This intense focus on freedom and disregard for everything else causes the shift from democracy to tyranny. The State demands a strong dose of freedom, and if its leaders don’t provide it generously, they face punishment and insults; equality and brotherhood between rulers and the ruled is the accepted principle. Anarchy is the law not just of the State, but of private households, and it extends even to animals. Fathers and sons, citizens and foreigners, teachers and students, the old and the young are all equals; fathers and teachers fear their children and students, and the wisdom of the young can rival that of the older generation, while the elderly mimic the lively behavior of the young for fear of being seen as gloomy. Slaves stand on the same level as their owners, and there’s no difference between men and women. In fact, even animals in a democratic State enjoy freedoms not found elsewhere. Female dogs are on par with their female owners, and horses and donkeys carry themselves with dignity, nudging anyone who crosses their path. "That has often been my experience." Eventually, citizens become so sensitive that they cannot bear the burden of laws, written or unwritten; they won’t allow anyone to call themselves their master. This is the proud beginning from which tyranny arises. "Proud indeed; but what comes next?" The collapse of oligarchy leads to the collapse of democracy; for there’s a law of opposites; excess freedom turns into extreme slavery, and the more freedom there is, the greater the slavery becomes. You’ll remember that in the oligarchy there were two classes—crooks and the poor, whom we compared to drones with and without stingers. These two groups are to the State what phlegm and bile are to the human body; and the State-physician, or legislator, must eliminate them, just as the beekeeper keeps drones out of the hive. In a democracy, there are drones too, but they are more numerous and more dangerous than in the oligarchy; there, they are stagnant and inexperienced, but here they are lively and animated; the sharper ones speak and act, while others swarm around the assembly and drown out their opponents. There’s also another class in democratic States, of respectable, thriving individuals who can be drained when the drones need their resources; plus, there’s a third class, which consists of laborers and artisans, making up the bulk of the population. When the people gather, they are powerful, but they won’t come together unless lured by a little sweetness; and the wealthy are compelled to provide that sweetness, most of which the demagogues keep for themselves, offering a taste only to the masses. Their victims try to resist; they become enraged by the drones’ stings and thus may turn into outright oligarchs in self-defense. This is followed by accusations and convictions for treason. The people have some protector whom they elevate to greatness, and from this root, the tree of tyranny grows. The nature of the transformation is illustrated in the old fable of the temple of Zeus Lycaeus, which tells how someone who tastes human flesh mixed with that of other victims will turn into a wolf. Similarly, the protector who tastes human blood, killing some and exiling others with or without laws, who hints at the cancellation of debts and redistribution of land, must either die or become a wolf—that is, a tyrant. He might get expelled, but soon returns from exile; and if his enemies can't legally remove him, they plot his assassination. Next, the people's friend makes his usual request for a bodyguard, which they willingly grant, thinking only of his danger and not their own. Let the rich person grow wings, for they won't escape again if they don't act then. And the Great Protector, after eliminating all his rivals, stands proudly in the State chariot, a fully-fledged tyrant: Let's examine the nature of his happiness.

In the early days of his tyranny he smiles and beams upon everybody; he is not a ‘dominus,’ no, not he: he has only come to put an end to debt and the monopoly of land. Having got rid of foreign enemies, he makes himself necessary to the State by always going to war. He is thus enabled to depress the poor by heavy taxes, and so keep them at work; and he can get rid of bolder spirits by handing them over to the enemy. Then comes unpopularity; some of his old associates have the courage to oppose him. The consequence is, that he has to make a purgation of the State; but, unlike the physician who purges away the bad, he must get rid of the high-spirited, the wise and the wealthy; for he has no choice between death and a life of shame and dishonour. And the more hated he is, the more he will require trusty guards; but how will he obtain them? ‘They will come flocking like birds—for pay.’ Will he not rather obtain them on the spot? He will take the slaves from their owners and make them his body-guard; these are his trusted friends, who admire and look up to him. Are not the tragic poets wise who magnify and exalt the tyrant, and say that he is wise by association with the wise? And are not their praises of tyranny alone a sufficient reason why we should exclude them from our State? They may go to other cities, and gather the mob about them with fine words, and change commonwealths into tyrannies and democracies, receiving honours and rewards for their services; but the higher they and their friends ascend constitution hill, the more their honour will fail and become ‘too asthmatic to mount.’ To return to the tyrant—How will he support that rare army of his? First, by robbing the temples of their treasures, which will enable him to lighten the taxes; then he will take all his father’s property, and spend it on his companions, male or female. Now his father is the demus, and if the demus gets angry, and says that a great hulking son ought not to be a burden on his parents, and bids him and his riotous crew begone, then will the parent know what a monster he has been nurturing, and that the son whom he would fain expel is too strong for him. ‘You do not mean to say that he will beat his father?’ Yes, he will, after having taken away his arms. ‘Then he is a parricide and a cruel, unnatural son.’ And the people have jumped from the fear of slavery into slavery, out of the smoke into the fire. Thus liberty, when out of all order and reason, passes into the worst form of servitude...

In the early days of his rule, he smiles and charms everyone; he’s not a ‘master,’ no, that’s not who he is: he’s just here to end debt and land monopolies. After getting rid of foreign enemies, he makes himself essential to the State by constantly going to war. This allows him to burden the poor with heavy taxes and keep them working; and he can eliminate tougher individuals by handing them over to the enemy. Soon, he becomes unpopular; some of his old allies find the courage to stand against him. As a result, he has to cleanse the State; but, unlike a doctor who removes the bad, he has to eliminate the spirited, the wise, and the wealthy; he faces a choice between death and a life of shame and dishonor. And the more he is hated, the more he’ll need loyal guards; but how will he find them? ‘They will come flocking like birds—for payment.’ Wouldn’t he just get them right away? He’ll take the slaves from their owners and make them his bodyguards; these are his trusted friends, who admire and look up to him. Aren’t the tragic poets wise who glorify and elevate the tyrant, claiming he’s wise by hanging out with the wise? And aren’t their praises of tyranny a good reason to exclude them from our State? They can go to other cities, gather crowds with flowery speeches, and turn commonwealths into tyrannies and democracies, gaining honors and rewards for their efforts; but the higher they and their friends rise, the more their honors will fade and become ‘too breathless to ascend.’ Back to the tyrant—how will he maintain his rare army? First, by robbing the temples of their wealth, which will help him lower taxes; then he’ll seize all his father’s property and spend it on his companions, whether male or female. Now his father is the people, and if the people get angry and say that a big, clumsy son shouldn’t burden his parents, and orders him and his chaotic crew to leave, then the parent will realize the monster he has been nurturing, and that the son he wants to expel is too powerful for him. ‘You can’t be saying he will attack his father?’ Yes, he will, after disarming him. ‘Then he’s a murderer and a cruel, unnatural son.’ And the people have jumped from the fear of oppression into oppression, from the frying pan into the fire. Thus, liberty, when it’s out of control and reason, slips into the worst kind of servitude...

In the previous books Plato has described the ideal State; now he returns to the perverted or declining forms, on which he had lightly touched at the end of Book IV. These he describes in a succession of parallels between the individuals and the States, tracing the origin of either in the State or individual which has preceded them. He begins by asking the point at which he digressed; and is thus led shortly to recapitulate the substance of the three former books, which also contain a parallel of the philosopher and the State.

In the earlier books, Plato outlined the ideal State; now he shifts his focus to the corrupted or declining forms, which he briefly mentioned at the end of Book IV. He describes these forms through a series of comparisons between individuals and States, exploring where each one originated in the previous State or individual. He starts by identifying where he left off and is quickly prompted to summarize the main points from the three earlier books, which also include a comparison between the philosopher and the State.

Of the first decline he gives no intelligible account; he would not have liked to admit the most probable causes of the fall of his ideal State, which to us would appear to be the impracticability of communism or the natural antagonism of the ruling and subject classes. He throws a veil of mystery over the origin of the decline, which he attributes to ignorance of the law of population. Of this law the famous geometrical figure or number is the expression. Like the ancients in general, he had no idea of the gradual perfectibility of man or of the education of the human race. His ideal was not to be attained in the course of ages, but was to spring in full armour from the head of the legislator. When good laws had been given, he thought only of the manner in which they were likely to be corrupted, or of how they might be filled up in detail or restored in accordance with their original spirit. He appears not to have reflected upon the full meaning of his own words, ‘In the brief space of human life, nothing great can be accomplished’; or again, as he afterwards says in the Laws, ‘Infinite time is the maker of cities.’ The order of constitutions which is adopted by him represents an order of thought rather than a succession of time, and may be considered as the first attempt to frame a philosophy of history.

He doesn’t provide a clear explanation for the initial decline; he wouldn’t have wanted to acknowledge the most likely reasons for the fall of his ideal State, which to us would seem to be the impracticality of communism or the natural conflict between the ruling and subject classes. He shrouds the decline's origins in mystery, blaming it on a lack of understanding about the law of population. This law is represented by the famous geometric figure or number. Like many ancient thinkers, he failed to recognize the gradual improvement of humanity or the education of the human race. His ideal wasn't meant to be achieved over ages but was supposed to arise fully formed from the mind of the legislator. Once good laws were established, he focused only on how they could be corrupted, or how they might need to be detailed or restored to their original intent. He seemingly didn’t reflect deeply on his own statement, “In the brief span of human life, nothing great can be accomplished,” or his later remark in the Laws, “Infinite time is the maker of cities.” The order of constitutions he proposes reflects a sequence of thought rather than a chronological progression and can be seen as an early attempt to shape a philosophy of history.

The first of these declining States is timocracy, or the government of soldiers and lovers of honour, which answers to the Spartan State; this is a government of force, in which education is not inspired by the Muses, but imposed by the law, and in which all the finer elements of organization have disappeared. The philosopher himself has lost the love of truth, and the soldier, who is of a simpler and honester nature, rules in his stead. The individual who answers to timocracy has some noticeable qualities. He is described as ill educated, but, like the Spartan, a lover of literature; and although he is a harsh master to his servants he has no natural superiority over them. His character is based upon a reaction against the circumstances of his father, who in a troubled city has retired from politics; and his mother, who is dissatisfied at her own position, is always urging him towards the life of political ambition. Such a character may have had this origin, and indeed Livy attributes the Licinian laws to a feminine jealousy of a similar kind. But there is obviously no connection between the manner in which the timocratic State springs out of the ideal, and the mere accident by which the timocratic man is the son of a retired statesman.

The first of these declining States is timocracy, or the rule of soldiers and those who value honor, which corresponds to the Spartan State; this is a government based on force, where education comes not from inspiration but from the law, and where all the finer aspects of organization have faded away. The philosopher has lost his love for truth, and the soldier, who is of a simpler and more honest nature, takes his place. The individual representing timocracy has some distinct traits. He is considered poorly educated, but like the Spartan, he enjoys literature; and although he is a tough master to his servants, he doesn't have any natural superiority over them. His character is shaped by a reaction against his father's situation, who has withdrawn from politics in a troubled city, and his mother, who is unhappy with her own status, constantly pushes him towards a life of political ambition. This character may have originated in such a way, and Livy indeed attributes the Licinian laws to a similar kind of feminine jealousy. However, there is clearly no link between how the timocratic State arises from the ideal and the mere chance that the timocratic man is the son of a retired politician.

The two next stages in the decline of constitutions have even less historical foundation. For there is no trace in Greek history of a polity like the Spartan or Cretan passing into an oligarchy of wealth, or of the oligarchy of wealth passing into a democracy. The order of history appears to be different; first, in the Homeric times there is the royal or patriarchal form of government, which a century or two later was succeeded by an oligarchy of birth rather than of wealth, and in which wealth was only the accident of the hereditary possession of land and power. Sometimes this oligarchical government gave way to a government based upon a qualification of property, which, according to Aristotle’s mode of using words, would have been called a timocracy; and this in some cities, as at Athens, became the conducting medium to democracy. But such was not the necessary order of succession in States; nor, indeed, can any order be discerned in the endless fluctuation of Greek history (like the tides in the Euripus), except, perhaps, in the almost uniform tendency from monarchy to aristocracy in the earliest times. At first sight there appears to be a similar inversion in the last step of the Platonic succession; for tyranny, instead of being the natural end of democracy, in early Greek history appears rather as a stage leading to democracy; the reign of Peisistratus and his sons is an episode which comes between the legislation of Solon and the constitution of Cleisthenes; and some secret cause common to them all seems to have led the greater part of Hellas at her first appearance in the dawn of history, e.g. Athens, Argos, Corinth, Sicyon, and nearly every State with the exception of Sparta, through a similar stage of tyranny which ended either in oligarchy or democracy. But then we must remember that Plato is describing rather the contemporary governments of the Sicilian States, which alternated between democracy and tyranny, than the ancient history of Athens or Corinth.

The next two stages in the decline of constitutions have even less historical basis. There’s no evidence in Greek history of a city-state like Sparta or Crete transitioning into a government led by the wealthy, or of that wealthy oligarchy turning into a democracy. The sequence of events seems different; initially, during the Homeric era, there’s a royal or patriarchal style of governance, which about a century or two later was replaced by an oligarchy based on lineage rather than wealth, where wealth was merely an outcome of land and power handed down through generations. At times, this oligarchical rule shifted to a government that required property qualifications, which Aristotle would refer to as a timocracy; in some cities, like Athens, this served as a pathway to democracy. However, this wasn’t the inevitable order of events for all states; in fact, it’s difficult to identify any consistent pattern in the constantly changing landscape of Greek history (much like the tides in the Euripus), except perhaps for the almost consistent movement from monarchy to aristocracy in the earliest periods. At first glance, there seems to be a similar reversal in the final step of the Platonic succession; tyranny, rather than being the natural outcome of democracy, seems to have played a role as a precursor to democracy in early Greek history. The rule of Peisistratus and his sons is an episode that sits between Solon’s legislation and Cleisthenes’ constitution; and some underlying factor common to them all appears to have guided much of Greece in its early historical days, like Athens, Argos, Corinth, Sicyon, and nearly every state except Sparta, through a similar phase of tyranny that ended in either oligarchy or democracy. But we must also keep in mind that Plato is primarily discussing the contemporary governments of the Sicilian States, which fluctuated between democracy and tyranny, rather than the ancient histories of Athens or Corinth.

The portrait of the tyrant himself is just such as the later Greek delighted to draw of Phalaris and Dionysius, in which, as in the lives of mediaeval saints or mythic heroes, the conduct and actions of one were attributed to another in order to fill up the outline. There was no enormity which the Greek was not today to believe of them; the tyrant was the negation of government and law; his assassination was glorious; there was no crime, however unnatural, which might not with probability be attributed to him. In this, Plato was only following the common thought of his countrymen, which he embellished and exaggerated with all the power of his genius. There is no need to suppose that he drew from life; or that his knowledge of tyrants is derived from a personal acquaintance with Dionysius. The manner in which he speaks of them would rather tend to render doubtful his ever having ‘consorted’ with them, or entertained the schemes, which are attributed to him in the Epistles, of regenerating Sicily by their help.

The portrait of the tyrant himself is exactly like the ones later Greeks loved to create of Phalaris and Dionysius, where, similar to the lives of medieval saints or mythic heroes, the actions of one person were attributed to another to create a fuller picture. There was no wrongdoing the Greeks wouldn’t believe they committed; the tyrant represented the complete opposite of government and law; his assassination was seen as glorious; there was no crime, no matter how unnatural, that couldn’t reasonably be linked to him. In this, Plato was just echoing the common beliefs of his countrymen, which he enhanced and exaggerated with all the brilliance of his genius. There’s no need to think he was drawing from life; or that his knowledge of tyrants comes from a personal acquaintance with Dionysius. The way he talks about them would actually make it questionable whether he ever "associated" with them or entertained the ideas attributed to him in the Epistles about regenerating Sicily with their help.

Plato in a hyperbolical and serio-comic vein exaggerates the follies of democracy which he also sees reflected in social life. To him democracy is a state of individualism or dissolution; in which every one is doing what is right in his own eyes. Of a people animated by a common spirit of liberty, rising as one man to repel the Persian host, which is the leading idea of democracy in Herodotus and Thucydides, he never seems to think. But if he is not a believer in liberty, still less is he a lover of tyranny. His deeper and more serious condemnation is reserved for the tyrant, who is the ideal of wickedness and also of weakness, and who in his utter helplessness and suspiciousness is leading an almost impossible existence, without that remnant of good which, in Plato’s opinion, was required to give power to evil (Book I). This ideal of wickedness living in helpless misery, is the reverse of that other portrait of perfect injustice ruling in happiness and splendour, which first of all Thrasymachus, and afterwards the sons of Ariston had drawn, and is also the reverse of the king whose rule of life is the good of his subjects.

Plato, in an exaggerated and somewhat humorous way, highlights the mistakes of democracy, which he sees mirrored in social life. To him, democracy is a state of individualism or chaos, where everyone does what they think is right. He doesn’t seem to consider a people united by a shared spirit of freedom, standing together to fend off the Persian army, which is the central idea of democracy in Herodotus and Thucydides. However, if he doesn't believe in freedom, he is even less fond of tyranny. His more profound and serious criticism is directed at the tyrant, who embodies both wickedness and weakness, and who, in his complete helplessness and suspicion, lives an almost impossible life, devoid of any goodness that, in Plato's view, is necessary to empower evil (Book I). This image of wickedness living in miserable helplessness stands in stark contrast to the other portrayal of perfect injustice reigning in happiness and splendor, which was first presented by Thrasymachus and later by the sons of Ariston, as well as the king whose guiding principle is the well-being of his subjects.

Each of these governments and individuals has a corresponding ethical gradation: the ideal State is under the rule of reason, not extinguishing but harmonizing the passions, and training them in virtue; in the timocracy and the timocratic man the constitution, whether of the State or of the individual, is based, first, upon courage, and secondly, upon the love of honour; this latter virtue, which is hardly to be esteemed a virtue, has superseded all the rest. In the second stage of decline the virtues have altogether disappeared, and the love of gain has succeeded to them; in the third stage, or democracy, the various passions are allowed to have free play, and the virtues and vices are impartially cultivated. But this freedom, which leads to many curious extravagances of character, is in reality only a state of weakness and dissipation. At last, one monster passion takes possession of the whole nature of man—this is tyranny. In all of them excess—the excess first of wealth and then of freedom, is the element of decay.

Each of these governments and individuals has a corresponding ethical hierarchy: the ideal state is governed by reason, not suppressing but balancing the passions and guiding them toward virtue. In a timocracy and in the timocratic individual, the foundation, whether of the state or the person, rests primarily on courage and secondarily on the pursuit of honor; this latter quality, which is hardly considered a true virtue, has overshadowed all others. In the second stage of decline, virtues completely vanish, and the desire for wealth takes their place; in the third stage, or democracy, various passions are allowed to run free, and both virtues and vices are equally encouraged. However, this freedom, which can lead to many strange behaviors, is really just a sign of weakness and disarray. Ultimately, one overpowering passion seizes the entire nature of a person—this is tyranny. In all cases, excess—first of wealth and then of freedom—is the source of decay.

The eighth book of the Republic abounds in pictures of life and fanciful allusions; the use of metaphorical language is carried to a greater extent than anywhere else in Plato. We may remark,

The eighth book of the Republic is full of vivid images of life and creative references; the use of metaphorical language is more pronounced here than in any other part of Plato's work. We can note,

(1), the description of the two nations in one, which become more and more divided in the Greek Republics, as in feudal times, and perhaps also in our own;

(1), the description of the two nations as one, which become increasingly divided in the Greek Republics, much like in feudal times, and maybe even in our own;

(2), the notion of democracy expressed in a sort of Pythagorean formula as equality among unequals;

(2), the idea of democracy described in a kind of Pythagorean formula as equality among those who are not equal;

(3), the free and easy ways of men and animals, which are characteristic of liberty, as foreign mercenaries and universal mistrust are of the tyrant;

(3), the carefree behaviors of people and animals, which signify freedom, are as distinct from the foreign mercenaries and widespread suspicion that define a tyrant;

(4), the proposal that mere debts should not be recoverable by law is a speculation which has often been entertained by reformers of the law in modern times, and is in harmony with the tendencies of modern legislation. Debt and land were the two great difficulties of the ancient lawgiver: in modern times we may be said to have almost, if not quite, solved the first of these difficulties, but hardly the second.

(4), the idea that simple debts shouldn't be enforceable by law is a concept that has often been considered by legal reformers today, and it aligns with the trends in modern legislation. Debt and property were the two major challenges for ancient lawmakers: in today's world, we can say we've nearly, if not completely, resolved the first issue, but the second one remains a struggle.

Still more remarkable are the corresponding portraits of individuals: there is the family picture of the father and mother and the old servant of the timocratical man, and the outward respectability and inherent meanness of the oligarchical; the uncontrolled licence and freedom of the democrat, in which the young Alcibiades seems to be depicted, doing right or wrong as he pleases, and who at last, like the prodigal, goes into a far country (note here the play of language by which the democratic man is himself represented under the image of a State having a citadel and receiving embassies); and there is the wild-beast nature, which breaks loose in his successor. The hit about the tyrant being a parricide; the representation of the tyrant’s life as an obscene dream; the rhetorical surprise of a more miserable than the most miserable of men in Book IX; the hint to the poets that if they are the friends of tyrants there is no place for them in a constitutional State, and that they are too clever not to see the propriety of their own expulsion; the continuous image of the drones who are of two kinds, swelling at last into the monster drone having wings (Book IX),—are among Plato’s happiest touches.

Even more impressive are the matching portraits of individuals: there's the family picture of the father, mother, and the old servant of the well-to-do man, alongside the outward respectability and hidden meanness of the elite; the unchecked freedom of the democrat, in which the young Alcibiades seems to be captured, acting as he wishes without regard for right or wrong, and who ultimately, like the prodigal son, ventures off to a distant land (note the clever use of language by which the democratic man is portrayed as a State with a stronghold that receives embassies); and there’s the wild, beastly nature that breaks free in his successor. The jab about the tyrant being a parricide; the depiction of the tyrant's life as an obscene nightmare; the shocking revelation of a man more miserable than the most miserable in Book IX; the suggestion to poets that if they are allies of tyrants, there’s no place for them in a constitutional State, and that they are too smart not to recognize the necessity of their own expulsion; the ongoing image of the drones who come in two varieties, ultimately growing into the monstrous drone with wings (Book IX)—are among Plato’s best points.

There remains to be considered the great difficulty of this book of the Republic, the so-called number of the State. This is a puzzle almost as great as the Number of the Beast in the Book of Revelation, and though apparently known to Aristotle, is referred to by Cicero as a proverb of obscurity (Ep. ad Att.). And some have imagined that there is no answer to the puzzle, and that Plato has been practising upon his readers. But such a deception as this is inconsistent with the manner in which Aristotle speaks of the number (Pol.), and would have been ridiculous to any reader of the Republic who was acquainted with Greek mathematics. As little reason is there for supposing that Plato intentionally used obscure expressions; the obscurity arises from our want of familiarity with the subject. On the other hand, Plato himself indicates that he is not altogether serious, and in describing his number as a solemn jest of the Muses, he appears to imply some degree of satire on the symbolical use of number. (Compare Cratylus; Protag.)

There still needs to be addressed the significant challenge of this book of the Republic, known as the number of the State. This is a conundrum almost as complex as the Number of the Beast in the Book of Revelation. Although it seems to be recognized by Aristotle, Cicero refers to it as a saying of obscurity (Ep. ad Att.). Some people believe there’s no solution to this puzzle and that Plato is just playing tricks on his readers. However, this kind of trickery goes against how Aristotle discusses the number (Pol.) and would have been ridiculous to anyone familiar with Greek mathematics at the time. There’s also no good reason to think that Plato intentionally used confusing language; the confusion comes from our lack of understanding of the topic. On the other hand, Plato himself suggests that he’s not entirely serious, and by calling his number a solemn joke of the Muses, he seems to hint at a degree of satire regarding the symbolic use of numbers. (Compare Cratylus; Protag.)

Our hope of understanding the passage depends principally on an accurate study of the words themselves; on which a faint light is thrown by the parallel passage in the ninth book. Another help is the allusion in Aristotle, who makes the important remark that the latter part of the passage (Greek) describes a solid figure. (Pol.—‘He only says that nothing is abiding, but that all things change in a certain cycle; and that the origin of the change is a base of numbers which are in the ratio of 4:3; and this when combined with a figure of five gives two harmonies; he means when the number of this figure becomes solid.’) Some further clue may be gathered from the appearance of the Pythagorean triangle, which is denoted by the numbers 3, 4, 5, and in which, as in every right-angled triangle, the squares of the two lesser sides equal the square of the hypotenuse (9 + 16 = 25).

Our understanding of the passage mainly relies on a careful study of the words themselves, which is slightly illuminated by the related passage in the ninth book. Another source of insight is the reference made by Aristotle, who points out that the latter part of the passage (Greek) describes a solid figure. (Pol.—"He only states that nothing is permanent, but that all things change in a certain cycle; and that the source of this change is a base of numbers in the ratio of 4:3; and that when this is combined with a figure of five, it creates two harmonies; he means when the number of this figure becomes solid.") We can also gather more clues from the Pythagorean triangle, represented by the numbers 3, 4, 5, in which, like every right-angled triangle, the squares of the two shorter sides equal the square of the hypotenuse (9 + 16 = 25).

Plato begins by speaking of a perfect or cyclical number (Tim.), i.e. a number in which the sum of the divisors equals the whole; this is the divine or perfect number in which all lesser cycles or revolutions are complete. He also speaks of a human or imperfect number, having four terms and three intervals of numbers which are related to one another in certain proportions; these he converts into figures, and finds in them when they have been raised to the third power certain elements of number, which give two ‘harmonies,’ the one square, the other oblong; but he does not say that the square number answers to the divine, or the oblong number to the human cycle; nor is any intimation given that the first or divine number represents the period of the world, the second the period of the state, or of the human race as Zeller supposes; nor is the divine number afterwards mentioned (Arist.). The second is the number of generations or births, and presides over them in the same mysterious manner in which the stars preside over them, or in which, according to the Pythagoreans, opportunity, justice, marriage, are represented by some number or figure. This is probably the number 216.

Plato starts by discussing a perfect or cyclical number (Tim.), which is a number where the sum of its divisors equals the number itself; this is the divine or perfect number that completes all lesser cycles. He also mentions a human or imperfect number, consisting of four terms and three intervals of numbers that relate to each other in specific proportions; he represents these with figures and discovers that when they are raised to the third power, they contain certain numerical elements that create two ‘harmonies,’ one square and the other oblong. However, he doesn’t claim that the square number corresponds to the divine, or that the oblong number aligns with the human cycle; there’s no suggestion that the first, divine number symbolizes the world’s period, nor that the second represents the state or the human race, as Zeller suggests; the divine number is not mentioned later (Arist.). The second number pertains to generations or births and has a mysterious influence over them, similar to how the stars do, or how, according to the Pythagoreans, concepts like opportunity, justice, and marriage are represented by specific numbers or figures. This is likely the number 216.

The explanation given in the text supposes the two harmonies to make up the number 8000. This explanation derives a certain plausibility from the circumstance that 8000 is the ancient number of the Spartan citizens (Herod.), and would be what Plato might have called ‘a number which nearly concerns the population of a city’; the mysterious disappearance of the Spartan population may possibly have suggested to him the first cause of his decline of States. The lesser or square ‘harmony,’ of 400, might be a symbol of the guardians,—the larger or oblong ‘harmony,’ of the people, and the numbers 3, 4, 5 might refer respectively to the three orders in the State or parts of the soul, the four virtues, the five forms of government. The harmony of the musical scale, which is elsewhere used as a symbol of the harmony of the state, is also indicated. For the numbers 3, 4, 5, which represent the sides of the Pythagorean triangle, also denote the intervals of the scale.

The explanation in the text suggests that the two harmonies add up to 8000. This idea gains some credibility from the fact that 8000 was the traditional number of Spartan citizens (Herod.), and it could be what Plato would call ‘a number that closely relates to the population of a city’; the mysterious vanishing of the Spartan population might have led him to think about the initial cause of the decline of city-states. The smaller or square ‘harmony’ of 400 could symbolize the guardians—while the larger or oblong ‘harmony’ represents the people. The numbers 3, 4, and 5 might refer to the three classes in the State or parts of the soul, the four virtues, and the five forms of government. The harmony of the musical scale, often cited as a symbol of state harmony, is also referenced here. The numbers 3, 4, and 5, which correspond to the sides of the Pythagorean triangle, also represent the intervals of the scale.

The terms used in the statement of the problem may be explained as follows. A perfect number (Greek), as already stated, is one which is equal to the sum of its divisors. Thus 6, which is the first perfect or cyclical number, = 1 + 2 + 3. The words (Greek), ‘terms’ or ‘notes,’ and (Greek), ‘intervals,’ are applicable to music as well as to number and figure. (Greek) is the ‘base’ on which the whole calculation depends, or the ‘lowest term’ from which it can be worked out. The words (Greek) have been variously translated—‘squared and cubed’ (Donaldson), ‘equalling and equalled in power’ (Weber), ‘by involution and evolution,’ i.e. by raising the power and extracting the root (as in the translation). Numbers are called ‘like and unlike’ (Greek) when the factors or the sides of the planes and cubes which they represent are or are not in the same ratio: e.g. 8 and 27 = 2 cubed and 3 cubed; and conversely. ‘Waxing’ (Greek) numbers, called also ‘increasing’ (Greek), are those which are exceeded by the sum of their divisors: e.g. 12 and 18 are less than 16 and 21. ‘Waning’ (Greek) numbers, called also ‘decreasing’ (Greek) are those which succeed the sum of their divisors: e.g. 8 and 27 exceed 7 and 13. The words translated ‘commensurable and agreeable to one another’ (Greek) seem to be different ways of describing the same relation, with more or less precision. They are equivalent to ‘expressible in terms having the same relation to one another,’ like the series 8, 12, 18, 27, each of which numbers is in the relation of (1 and 1/2) to the preceding. The ‘base,’ or ‘fundamental number, which has 1/3 added to it’ (1 and 1/3) = 4/3 or a musical fourth. (Greek) is a ‘proportion’ of numbers as of musical notes, applied either to the parts or factors of a single number or to the relation of one number to another. The first harmony is a ‘square’ number (Greek); the second harmony is an ‘oblong’ number (Greek), i.e. a number representing a figure of which the opposite sides only are equal. (Greek) = ‘numbers squared from’ or ‘upon diameters’; (Greek) = ‘rational,’ i.e. omitting fractions, (Greek), ‘irrational,’ i.e. including fractions; e.g. 49 is a square of the rational diameter of a figure the side of which = 5: 50, of an irrational diameter of the same. For several of the explanations here given and for a good deal besides I am indebted to an excellent article on the Platonic Number by Dr. Donaldson (Proc. of the Philol. Society).

The terms used in the problem statement can be explained like this. A perfect number, as mentioned earlier, is one that's equal to the sum of its divisors. For example, 6, which is the first perfect or cyclical number, equals 1 + 2 + 3. The terms for 'terms' or 'notes,' and 'intervals,' apply to both music and numbers. The 'base' is the foundation of the entire calculation or the starting point from which everything else can be derived. The terms have been translated in different ways—'squared and cubed' (Donaldson), 'equaling and equaled in power' (Weber), 'by involution and evolution,' which means raising to a power and taking a root. Numbers are described as 'like and unlike' when the factors or dimensions they represent (like planes and cubes) are in the same ratio or not: for example, 8 and 27, which are 2 cubed and 3 cubed. ‘Waxing’ numbers, also known as ‘increasing’ numbers, are those that are smaller than the sum of their divisors: for instance, 12 and 18 are less than 16 and 21. ‘Waning’ numbers, also called ‘decreasing’ numbers, are those that exceed the sum of their divisors: for example, 8 and 27 are greater than 7 and 13. The terms 'commensurable and agreeable to one another' seem to describe the same relationship in slightly different ways. They can be understood as 'expressible in terms that have the same relationship to one another,' like the series 8, 12, 18, and 27, where each number has a ratio of (1 and 1/2) to the one before it. The 'base' or 'fundamental number that has 1/3 added to it' (1 and 1/3) equals 4/3 or a musical fourth. The term refers to a 'proportion' of numbers as well as musical notes, which can apply either to the parts or factors of a single number or the relationship between two numbers. The first harmony is a 'square' number; the second harmony is an 'oblong' number, meaning a number that represents a figure with only the opposite sides being equal. The term means 'numbers squared from' or 'upon diameters'; another means 'rational', which ignores fractions, while another means 'irrational', which includes fractions; for example, 49 is the square of the rational diameter of a figure whose side is 5, while 50 has an irrational diameter of the same. For several of the explanations provided here and much more, I owe thanks to an excellent article on the Platonic Number by Dr. Donaldson (Proc. of the Philol. Society).

The conclusions which he draws from these data are summed up by him as follows. Having assumed that the number of the perfect or divine cycle is the number of the world, and the number of the imperfect cycle the number of the state, he proceeds: ‘The period of the world is defined by the perfect number 6, that of the state by the cube of that number or 216, which is the product of the last pair of terms in the Platonic Tetractys (a series of seven terms, 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 8, 27); and if we take this as the basis of our computation, we shall have two cube numbers (Greek), viz. 8 and 27; and the mean proportionals between these, viz. 12 and 18, will furnish three intervals and four terms, and these terms and intervals stand related to one another in the sesqui-altera ratio, i.e. each term is to the preceding as 3/2. Now if we remember that the number 216 = 8 x 27 = 3 cubed + 4 cubed + 5 cubed, and 3 squared + 4 squared = 5 squared, we must admit that this number implies the numbers 3, 4, 5, to which musicians attach so much importance. And if we combine the ratio 4/3 with the number 5, or multiply the ratios of the sides by the hypotenuse, we shall by first squaring and then cubing obtain two expressions, which denote the ratio of the two last pairs of terms in the Platonic Tetractys, the former multiplied by the square, the latter by the cube of the number 10, the sum of the first four digits which constitute the Platonic Tetractys.’ The two (Greek) he elsewhere explains as follows: ‘The first (Greek) is (Greek), in other words (4/3 x 5) all squared = 100 x 2 squared over 3 squared. The second (Greek), a cube of the same root, is described as 100 multiplied (alpha) by the rational diameter of 5 diminished by unity, i.e., as shown above, 48: (beta) by two incommensurable diameters, i.e. the two first irrationals, or 2 and 3: and (gamma) by the cube of 3, or 27. Thus we have (48 + 5 + 27) 100 = 1000 x 2 cubed. This second harmony is to be the cube of the number of which the former harmony is the square, and therefore must be divided by the cube of 3. In other words, the whole expression will be: (1), for the first harmony, 400/9: (2), for the second harmony, 8000/27.’

The conclusions he reaches from this data are summarized as follows. He assumes that the perfect or divine cycle corresponds to the number of the world, while the imperfect cycle correlates to the number of the state. He states: “The period of the world is defined by the perfect number 6, and the period of the state by the cube of that number, which is 216. This is the product of the last pair of terms in the Platonic Tetractys (a series of seven terms: 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 8, 27). If we use this as the foundation for our calculations, we will have two cube numbers (Greek), which are 8 and 27; and the mean proportional values between these are 12 and 18. This will create three intervals and four terms, which relate to one another in the sesqui-altera ratio, meaning each term is to the preceding one as 3/2. Now, if we note that 216 = 8 x 27 = 3 cubed + 4 cubed + 5 cubed, and 3 squared + 4 squared = 5 squared, we must acknowledge that this number reflects the numbers 3, 4, 5, which are significant to musicians. If we combine the ratio 4/3 with the number 5, or multiply the ratios of the sides by the hypotenuse, we can first square and then cube to obtain two expressions that represent the ratios of the last two pairs of terms in the Platonic Tetractys, with the first multiplied by the square and the second by the cube of the number 10, the sum of the first four digits that make up the Platonic Tetractys.” He explains the two (Greek) elsewhere as follows: “The first (Greek) is (Greek), which means (4/3 x 5) squared = 100 x 2 squared over 3 squared. The second (Greek), a cube of the same root, is defined as 100 multiplied (alpha) by the rational diameter of 5 minus 1, which is, as shown above, 48: (beta) by two incommensurable diameters, which are the first two irrationals, or 2 and 3: and (gamma) by the cube of 3, or 27. Therefore, we have (48 + 5 + 27) 100 = 1000 x 2 cubed. This second harmony is to be the cube of the number for which the first harmony is the square, so it must be divided by the cube of 3. In other words, the entire expression will be: (1) for the first harmony, 400/9; (2) for the second harmony, 8000/27.”

The reasons which have inclined me to agree with Dr. Donaldson and also with Schleiermacher in supposing that 216 is the Platonic number of births are: (1) that it coincides with the description of the number given in the first part of the passage (Greek...): (2) that the number 216 with its permutations would have been familiar to a Greek mathematician, though unfamiliar to us: (3) that 216 is the cube of 6, and also the sum of 3 cubed, 4 cubed, 5 cubed, the numbers 3, 4, 5 representing the Pythagorean triangle, of which the sides when squared equal the square of the hypotenuse (9 + 16 = 25): (4) that it is also the period of the Pythagorean Metempsychosis: (5) the three ultimate terms or bases (3, 4, 5) of which 216 is composed answer to the third, fourth, fifth in the musical scale: (6) that the number 216 is the product of the cubes of 2 and 3, which are the two last terms in the Platonic Tetractys: (7) that the Pythagorean triangle is said by Plutarch (de Is. et Osir.), Proclus (super prima Eucl.), and Quintilian (de Musica) to be contained in this passage, so that the tradition of the school seems to point in the same direction: (8) that the Pythagorean triangle is called also the figure of marriage (Greek).

The reasons that led me to agree with Dr. Donaldson and Schleiermacher in believing that 216 is the Platonic number of births are: (1) it matches the description of the number provided in the first part of the passage (Greek...); (2) the number 216 and its variations would have been known to a Greek mathematician, even if it’s unfamiliar to us; (3) 216 is the cube of 6, and it’s also the sum of 3 cubed, 4 cubed, and 5 cubed, with the numbers 3, 4, and 5 forming the Pythagorean triangle, where the squares of the sides equal the square of the hypotenuse (9 + 16 = 25); (4) it’s also the period of the Pythagorean Metempsychosis; (5) the three basic numbers (3, 4, 5) that make up 216 correspond to the third, fourth, and fifth notes in the musical scale; (6) the number 216 is the product of the cubes of 2 and 3, which are the last two terms in the Platonic Tetractys; (7) the Pythagorean triangle is said by Plutarch (de Is. et Osir.), Proclus (super prima Eucl.), and Quintilian (de Musica) to be included in this passage, suggesting that the tradition of the school seems to support this idea; (8) the Pythagorean triangle is also referred to as the figure of marriage (Greek).

But though agreeing with Dr. Donaldson thus far, I see no reason for supposing, as he does, that the first or perfect number is the world, the human or imperfect number the state; nor has he given any proof that the second harmony is a cube. Nor do I think that (Greek) can mean ‘two incommensurables,’ which he arbitrarily assumes to be 2 and 3, but rather, as the preceding clause implies, (Greek), i.e. two square numbers based upon irrational diameters of a figure the side of which is 5 = 50 x 2.

But even though I agree with Dr. Donaldson up to this point, I don’t see any reason to believe, as he does, that the first or perfect number represents the world, and the human or imperfect number represents the state. He also hasn’t provided any evidence that the second harmony is a cube. Furthermore, I don’t think that (Greek) can mean ‘two incommensurables,’ which he randomly claims are 2 and 3, but rather, as the previous clause suggests, (Greek), meaning two square numbers based on the irrational diameters of a figure whose side is 5 = 50 x 2.

The greatest objection to the translation is the sense given to the words (Greek), ‘a base of three with a third added to it, multiplied by 5.’ In this somewhat forced manner Plato introduces once more the numbers of the Pythagorean triangle. But the coincidences in the numbers which follow are in favour of the explanation. The first harmony of 400, as has been already remarked, probably represents the rulers; the second and oblong harmony of 7600, the people.

The biggest issue with the translation is the interpretation of the words (Greek), ‘a base of three with a third added to it, multiplied by 5.’ In this somewhat awkward way, Plato brings up the numbers of the Pythagorean triangle again. However, the numerical coincidences that follow support this explanation. The first harmony of 400 likely represents the rulers, while the second, more elongated harmony of 7600 represents the people.

And here we take leave of the difficulty. The discovery of the riddle would be useless, and would throw no light on ancient mathematics. The point of interest is that Plato should have used such a symbol, and that so much of the Pythagorean spirit should have prevailed in him. His general meaning is that divine creation is perfect, and is represented or presided over by a perfect or cyclical number; human generation is imperfect, and represented or presided over by an imperfect number or series of numbers. The number 5040, which is the number of the citizens in the Laws, is expressly based by him on utilitarian grounds, namely, the convenience of the number for division; it is also made up of the first seven digits multiplied by one another. The contrast of the perfect and imperfect number may have been easily suggested by the corrections of the cycle, which were made first by Meton and secondly by Callippus; (the latter is said to have been a pupil of Plato). Of the degree of importance or of exactness to be attributed to the problem, the number of the tyrant in Book IX (729 = 365 x 2), and the slight correction of the error in the number 5040/12 (Laws), may furnish a criterion. There is nothing surprising in the circumstance that those who were seeking for order in nature and had found order in number, should have imagined one to give law to the other. Plato believes in a power of number far beyond what he could see realized in the world around him, and he knows the great influence which ‘the little matter of 1, 2, 3’ exercises upon education. He may even be thought to have a prophetic anticipation of the discoveries of Quetelet and others, that numbers depend upon numbers; e.g.—in population, the numbers of births and the respective numbers of children born of either sex, on the respective ages of parents, i.e. on other numbers.

And here we address the challenge. Figuring out the riddle wouldn’t really help us understand ancient mathematics. What’s interesting is that Plato used such a symbol and that he was influenced by the Pythagorean ideas. His main point is that divine creation is perfect, represented or overseen by a perfect or cyclical number, while human creation is flawed, represented or overseen by an imperfect number or series of numbers. The number 5040, which represents the citizens in the Laws, is specifically based on practical reasons, namely, how easy it is to divide. It’s also made up of the first seven digits multiplied together. The contrast between perfect and imperfect numbers may have been inspired by the corrections of the cycle made first by Meton and then by Callippus; (the latter is said to have been a student of Plato). To understand how significant or accurate the problem is, we can look at the tyrant's number in Book IX (729 = 365 x 2) and the small correction in the number 5040/12 (Laws). It’s not surprising that those searching for order in nature, who found it in numbers, would have thought one could govern the other. Plato believes in the power of numbers that goes far beyond what he could observe in the world around him, and he understands the significant impact that “the simple matter of 1, 2, 3” has on education. He could even be seen as having predicted the discoveries of Quetelet and others, that numbers depend on numbers; for example—in population, the birth rates and the respective numbers of children born of each sex, depending on the ages of parents, meaning dependent on other numbers.

BOOK IX. Last of all comes the tyrannical man, about whom we have to enquire, Whence is he, and how does he live—in happiness or in misery? There is, however, a previous question of the nature and number of the appetites, which I should like to consider first. Some of them are unlawful, and yet admit of being chastened and weakened in various degrees by the power of reason and law. ‘What appetites do you mean?’ I mean those which are awake when the reasoning powers are asleep, which get up and walk about naked without any self-respect or shame; and there is no conceivable folly or crime, however cruel or unnatural, of which, in imagination, they may not be guilty. ‘True,’ he said; ‘very true.’ But when a man’s pulse beats temperately; and he has supped on a feast of reason and come to a knowledge of himself before going to rest, and has satisfied his desires just enough to prevent their perturbing his reason, which remains clear and luminous, and when he is free from quarrel and heat,—the visions which he has on his bed are least irregular and abnormal. Even in good men there is such an irregular wild-beast nature, which peers out in sleep.

BOOK IX. Finally, we come to the tyrannical man, and we need to investigate where he comes from and how he lives—whether in happiness or misery. However, there's a prior question about the nature and number of appetites that I want to address first. Some of these appetites are unjust, yet they can be toned down and controlled to varying extents by reason and the law. 'Which appetites are you referring to?' I’m talking about those that come alive when reason is asleep, those that roam free without any sense of dignity or shame; and there’s no possible foolishness or crime, no matter how cruel or unnatural, that they couldn't fantasize about. 'That's true,' he said; 'very true.' But when a person is calm, has enjoyed an intellectual feast, has gained self-awareness before heading to bed, and has fulfilled his desires just enough to keep them from disrupting his clear and bright reasoning, and when he is free from conflict and agitation—the dreams he experiences in bed are the least chaotic and strange. Even in good people, there's an untamed wild nature that surfaces in their sleep.

To return:—You remember what was said of the democrat; that he was the son of a miserly father, who encouraged the saving desires and repressed the ornamental and expensive ones; presently the youth got into fine company, and began to entertain a dislike to his father’s narrow ways; and being a better man than the corrupters of his youth, he came to a mean, and led a life, not of lawless or slavish passion, but of regular and successive indulgence. Now imagine that the youth has become a father, and has a son who is exposed to the same temptations, and has companions who lead him into every sort of iniquity, and parents and friends who try to keep him right. The counsellors of evil find that their only chance of retaining him is to implant in his soul a monster drone, or love; while other desires buzz around him and mystify him with sweet sounds and scents, this monster love takes possession of him, and puts an end to every true or modest thought or wish. Love, like drunkenness and madness, is a tyranny; and the tyrannical man, whether made by nature or habit, is just a drinking, lusting, furious sort of animal.

To return:—You remember what was said about the democrat; that he was the son of a stingy father, who encouraged saving but crushed any desire for luxury and expensive things. Eventually, the young man started hanging out with better company and began to dislike his father's narrow ways. Being a better person than the influences around him, he found a balance and led a life not driven by wild passions but by steady and moderate indulgences. Now imagine that this young man has become a father and has a son who faces the same temptations, with friends leading him into all sorts of wrongdoing, while his parents and other friends try to keep him on the right path. The advisors of vice realize that their best chance to keep him is to instill in him a monstrous obsession, known as love. While other desires swirl around him, confusing him with sweet sounds and scents, this overpowering love takes over his mind and obliterates any genuine or humble thoughts or wishes. Love, like drunkenness and insanity, is a form of tyranny; and a tyrannical person, whether shaped by nature or habit, is simply a wild, lustful creature.

And how does such an one live? ‘Nay, that you must tell me.’ Well then, I fancy that he will live amid revelries and harlotries, and love will be the lord and master of the house. Many desires require much money, and so he spends all that he has and borrows more; and when he has nothing the young ravens are still in the nest in which they were hatched, crying for food. Love urges them on; and they must be gratified by force or fraud, or if not, they become painful and troublesome; and as the new pleasures succeed the old ones, so will the son take possession of the goods of his parents; if they show signs of refusing, he will defraud and deceive them; and if they openly resist, what then? ‘I can only say, that I should not much like to be in their place.’ But, O heavens, Adeimantus, to think that for some new-fangled and unnecessary love he will give up his old father and mother, best and dearest of friends, or enslave them to the fancies of the hour! Truly a tyrannical son is a blessing to his father and mother! When there is no more to be got out of them, he turns burglar or pickpocket, or robs a temple. Love overmasters the thoughts of his youth, and he becomes in sober reality the monster that he was sometimes in sleep. He waxes strong in all violence and lawlessness; and is ready for any deed of daring that will supply the wants of his rabble-rout. In a well-ordered State there are only a few such, and these in time of war go out and become the mercenaries of a tyrant. But in time of peace they stay at home and do mischief; they are the thieves, footpads, cut-purses, man-stealers of the community; or if they are able to speak, they turn false-witnesses and informers. ‘No small catalogue of crimes truly, even if the perpetrators are few.’ Yes, I said; but small and great are relative terms, and no crimes which are committed by them approach those of the tyrant, whom this class, growing strong and numerous, create out of themselves. If the people yield, well and good, but, if they resist, then, as before he beat his father and mother, so now he beats his fatherland and motherland, and places his mercenaries over them. Such men in their early days live with flatterers, and they themselves flatter others, in order to gain their ends; but they soon discard their followers when they have no longer any need of them; they are always either masters or servants,—the joys of friendship are unknown to them. And they are utterly treacherous and unjust, if the nature of justice be at all understood by us. They realize our dream; and he who is the most of a tyrant by nature, and leads the life of a tyrant for the longest time, will be the worst of them, and being the worst of them, will also be the most miserable.

And how does someone like that live? ‘Well, you have to tell me.’ Alright then, I imagine he lives in a world of parties and promiscuity, where love is the ruler of everything. Many desires need a lot of money, so he spends all he has and borrows even more; and when he's broke, the young ones still at home demand food like baby birds. Love pushes them on; they must be satisfied by any means, or else they become a burden. As new pleasures come, the son will take what his parents have; if they resist, he will cheat and deceive them; and if they fight back, what then? ‘Honestly, I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.’ But, oh my, Adeimantus, to think that for some trendy and unnecessary love, he would abandon his old father and mother—his best and closest friends—or make them slaves to passing desires! Truly, a tyrannical son is a curse to his parents! When there's nothing left to take from them, he turns to burglary or theft or plunders a temple. Love takes over his youthful mind, and he becomes the monster he sometimes was in his dreams. He grows strong in violence and lawlessness and is ready for any reckless act to satisfy his wild group. In a well-ordered society, there are only a few like this, and in times of war, they become the mercenaries for a tyrant. But in times of peace, they cause havoc at home; they become thieves, robbers, pickpockets, and kidnappers; or if they can speak, they become false witnesses and informants. ‘That’s quite a list of crimes, even if there aren’t many doing them.’ Yes, I said; but whether crimes are small or large is relative, and none of their crimes compare to those of the tyrant, who rises from this class as they grow strong and numerous. If the people submit, that's fine, but if they resist, just like he once hit his parents, he will now beat his homeland and put his mercenaries over them. Such men live in their youth surrounded by flatterers, and they flatter others to get what they want; but they quickly ditch their followers when they no longer need them; they are always either in control or being controlled—the joys of friendship are foreign to them. They are completely treacherous and unjust, if we understand justice at all. They realize our worst nightmares; and the one who is the most tyrannical by nature, living the life of a tyrant longest, will become the worst, and being the worst, he will also be the most miserable.

Like man, like State,—the tyrannical man will answer to tyranny, which is the extreme opposite of the royal State; for one is the best and the other the worst. But which is the happier? Great and terrible as the tyrant may appear enthroned amid his satellites, let us not be afraid to go in and ask; and the answer is, that the monarchical is the happiest, and the tyrannical the most miserable of States. And may we not ask the same question about the men themselves, requesting some one to look into them who is able to penetrate the inner nature of man, and will not be panic-struck by the vain pomp of tyranny? I will suppose that he is one who has lived with him, and has seen him in family life, or perhaps in the hour of trouble and danger.

Like people, like the State—tyrannical individuals will create tyranny, which is the complete opposite of a true monarchy; one is the best, and the other the worst. But which one is happier? As grand and intimidating as the tyrant may seem, surrounded by his followers, let’s not hesitate to ask; the answer is that a monarchy is the happiest, and tyranny is the most miserable of all forms of government. Can we not also pose this question about the individuals themselves, asking someone to examine them who can see into the true nature of a person and isn’t intimidated by the empty show of tyranny? I’ll assume this person has lived with the tyrant and witnessed him in family life, or maybe during times of trouble and danger.

Assuming that we ourselves are the impartial judge for whom we seek, let us begin by comparing the individual and State, and ask first of all, whether the State is likely to be free or enslaved—Will there not be a little freedom and a great deal of slavery? And the freedom is of the bad, and the slavery of the good; and this applies to the man as well as to the State; for his soul is full of meanness and slavery, and the better part is enslaved to the worse. He cannot do what he would, and his mind is full of confusion; he is the very reverse of a freeman. The State will be poor and full of misery and sorrow; and the man’s soul will also be poor and full of sorrows, and he will be the most miserable of men. No, not the most miserable, for there is yet a more miserable. ‘Who is that?’ The tyrannical man who has the misfortune also to become a public tyrant. ‘There I suspect that you are right.’ Say rather, ‘I am sure;’ conjecture is out of place in an enquiry of this nature. He is like a wealthy owner of slaves, only he has more of them than any private individual. You will say, ‘The owners of slaves are not generally in any fear of them.’ But why? Because the whole city is in a league which protects the individual. Suppose however that one of these owners and his household is carried off by a god into a wilderness, where there are no freemen to help him—will he not be in an agony of terror?—will he not be compelled to flatter his slaves and to promise them many things sore against his will? And suppose the same god who carried him off were to surround him with neighbours who declare that no man ought to have slaves, and that the owners of them should be punished with death. ‘Still worse and worse! He will be in the midst of his enemies.’ And is not our tyrant such a captive soul, who is tormented by a swarm of passions which he cannot indulge; living indoors always like a woman, and jealous of those who can go out and see the world?

Assuming that we are the unbiased judges we seek, let’s start by comparing the individual and the State, and first ask: is the State likely to be free or enslaved? Will there be a bit of freedom and a lot of slavery? And the freedom is of the bad kind, while the slavery belongs to the good; this applies to both the individual and the State. His soul is filled with pettiness and bondage, and the better part is enslaved to the worse. He can’t do what he wants, and his mind is clouded; he is the complete opposite of a free person. The State will be impoverished and filled with suffering and sorrow; the individual’s soul will also be poor and full of grief, making him the most wretched of men. No, not the most miserable, because there is someone more miserable. ‘Who is that?’ The tyrannical person who is unfortunate enough to also become a public tyrant. ‘I suspect you’re right.’ Better to say, ‘I’m sure;’ guessing has no place in this type of inquiry. He is like a wealthy slave owner, but he has more slaves than any private individual. You might say, ‘Slave owners are generally not afraid of them.’ But why? Because the entire city supports the individual. However, suppose one of these owners and his household is taken by a god to a wilderness where there are no free people to help him—will he not be in a state of panic?—will he not have to flatter his slaves and promise them many things against his will? And if the same god that took him away surrounds him with neighbors who declare that no one should have slaves, and that owners should be punished with death? ‘It just keeps getting worse! He will be surrounded by his enemies.’ Isn’t our tyrant a captive soul, tormented by a swarm of desires he can’t indulge; always stuck indoors like a woman, and envious of those who can venture out and experience the world?

Having so many evils, will not the most miserable of men be still more miserable in a public station? Master of others when he is not master of himself; like a sick man who is compelled to be an athlete; the meanest of slaves and the most abject of flatterers; wanting all things, and never able to satisfy his desires; always in fear and distraction, like the State of which he is the representative. His jealous, hateful, faithless temper grows worse with command; he is more and more faithless, envious, unrighteous,—the most wretched of men, a misery to himself and to others. And so let us have a final trial and proclamation; need we hire a herald, or shall I proclaim the result? ‘Made the proclamation yourself.’ The son of Ariston (the best) is of opinion that the best and justest of men is also the happiest, and that this is he who is the most royal master of himself; and that the unjust man is he who is the greatest tyrant of himself and of his State. And I add further—‘seen or unseen by gods or men.’

Having so many problems, won’t the most miserable man be even more miserable in a public role? He’s in charge of others while struggling to control himself; like a sick person forced to be an athlete; the lowest of slaves and the most pathetic of flatterers; lacking everything and never able to satisfy his wants; always scared and distracted, much like the State he represents. His jealous, hateful, and untrustworthy nature worsens with power; he becomes increasingly deceitful, envious, and unjust—the most miserable of men, a burden to himself and to others. So let’s have a final trial and announcement; do we need to hire a herald, or should I announce the results myself? 'Make the announcement yourself.' The son of Ariston (the best) believes that the best and most just man is also the happiest, and that this person is someone who is the most noble master of himself; while the unjust man is the one who is the biggest tyrant over himself and his State. And I further add—‘whether seen or unseen by gods or men.’

This is our first proof. The second is derived from the three kinds of pleasure, which answer to the three elements of the soul—reason, passion, desire; under which last is comprehended avarice as well as sensual appetite, while passion includes ambition, party-feeling, love of reputation. Reason, again, is solely directed to the attainment of truth, and careless of money and reputation. In accordance with the difference of men’s natures, one of these three principles is in the ascendant, and they have their several pleasures corresponding to them. Interrogate now the three natures, and each one will be found praising his own pleasures and depreciating those of others. The money-maker will contrast the vanity of knowledge with the solid advantages of wealth. The ambitious man will despise knowledge which brings no honour; whereas the philosopher will regard only the fruition of truth, and will call other pleasures necessary rather than good. Now, how shall we decide between them? Is there any better criterion than experience and knowledge? And which of the three has the truest knowledge and the widest experience? The experience of youth makes the philosopher acquainted with the two kinds of desire, but the avaricious and the ambitious man never taste the pleasures of truth and wisdom. Honour he has equally with them; they are ‘judged of him,’ but he is ‘not judged of them,’ for they never attain to the knowledge of true being. And his instrument is reason, whereas their standard is only wealth and honour; and if by reason we are to judge, his good will be the truest. And so we arrive at the result that the pleasure of the rational part of the soul, and a life passed in such pleasure is the pleasantest. He who has a right to judge judges thus. Next comes the life of ambition, and, in the third place, that of money-making.

This is our first proof. The second comes from the three types of pleasure, which correspond to the three parts of the soul—reason, passion, and desire. Under desire, we include both greed and physical cravings, while passion encompasses ambition, loyalty to a group, and the desire for recognition. Reason is solely focused on achieving truth and is indifferent to money and reputation. Depending on individual personalities, one of these three elements tends to dominate, and each has its own pleasures that match it. If you question each of these three types of people, you will find that each one praises their own pleasures and looks down on those of others. The person focused on making money will compare the emptiness of knowledge to the tangible benefits of wealth. The ambitious person will disregard knowledge that doesn't bring honor; meanwhile, the philosopher values only the pursuit of truth and considers other pleasures as necessary rather than truly good. So, how do we choose between them? Is there a better standard than experience and knowledge? And which of these three possesses the most accurate understanding and the broadest experience? The experience of youth may provide the philosopher with knowledge of both types of desire, but the greedy and the ambitious never taste the pleasures of truth and wisdom. They share similar honors, as they are “judged by him,” but he is “not judged by them,” since they never attain the understanding of true existence. His tool is reason, while their standards are only wealth and honor; and if we judge by reason, his understanding will be the most genuine. Thus, we conclude that the pleasure derived from the rational part of the soul, and a life spent in such pleasure, is the most enjoyable. Those who are capable of judging do so in this way. Next in line is the life of ambition, and lastly, that of making money.

Twice has the just man overthrown the unjust—once more, as in an Olympian contest, first offering up a prayer to the saviour Zeus, let him try a fall. A wise man whispers to me that the pleasures of the wise are true and pure; all others are a shadow only. Let us examine this: Is not pleasure opposed to pain, and is there not a mean state which is neither? When a man is sick, nothing is more pleasant to him than health. But this he never found out while he was well. In pain he desires only to cease from pain; on the other hand, when he is in an ecstasy of pleasure, rest is painful to him. Thus rest or cessation is both pleasure and pain. But can that which is neither become both? Again, pleasure and pain are motions, and the absence of them is rest; but if so, how can the absence of either of them be the other? Thus we are led to infer that the contradiction is an appearance only, and witchery of the senses. And these are not the only pleasures, for there are others which have no preceding pains. Pure pleasure then is not the absence of pain, nor pure pain the absence of pleasure; although most of the pleasures which reach the mind through the body are reliefs of pain, and have not only their reactions when they depart, but their anticipations before they come. They can be best described in a simile. There is in nature an upper, lower, and middle region, and he who passes from the lower to the middle imagines that he is going up and is already in the upper world; and if he were taken back again would think, and truly think, that he was descending. All this arises out of his ignorance of the true upper, middle, and lower regions. And a like confusion happens with pleasure and pain, and with many other things. The man who compares grey with black, calls grey white; and the man who compares absence of pain with pain, calls the absence of pain pleasure. Again, hunger and thirst are inanitions of the body, ignorance and folly of the soul; and food is the satisfaction of the one, knowledge of the other. Now which is the purer satisfaction—that of eating and drinking, or that of knowledge? Consider the matter thus: The satisfaction of that which has more existence is truer than of that which has less. The invariable and immortal has a more real existence than the variable and mortal, and has a corresponding measure of knowledge and truth. The soul, again, has more existence and truth and knowledge than the body, and is therefore more really satisfied and has a more natural pleasure. Those who feast only on earthly food, are always going at random up to the middle and down again; but they never pass into the true upper world, or have a taste of true pleasure. They are like fatted beasts, full of gluttony and sensuality, and ready to kill one another by reason of their insatiable lust; for they are not filled with true being, and their vessel is leaky (Gorgias). Their pleasures are mere shadows of pleasure, mixed with pain, coloured and intensified by contrast, and therefore intensely desired; and men go fighting about them, as Stesichorus says that the Greeks fought about the shadow of Helen at Troy, because they know not the truth.

Twice the just man has defeated the unjust—once more, like in an Olympic game, first offering a prayer to the savior Zeus, let him take a chance. A wise person tells me that the pleasures of the wise are real and pure; all others are just a shadow. Let's think about this: Is pleasure not the opposite of pain, and is there not a neutral state that is neither? When a person is sick, nothing feels better than being healthy. But he never realizes this when he is well. In pain, he only wants to be free from it; however, when he’s overwhelmed with pleasure, rest feels uncomfortable. So, rest or the end of something can be both pleasure and pain. But can something that is neither be both? Again, pleasure and pain are movements, and their absence is rest; but if that’s the case, how can the absence of one be the other? Thus, we conclude that the contradiction is just an illusion, a trick of the senses. And these aren’t the only pleasures; there are others that come without any preceding pain. So pure pleasure isn’t just the absence of pain, nor is pure pain merely the absence of pleasure; although most physical pleasures are reliefs from pain and have reactions when they go away, as well as anticipations before they arrive. They can best be explained with a comparison. In nature, there’s an upper, lower, and middle region, and someone moving from the lower to the middle thinks he’s going up and is already in the upper world; and if he’s taken back, he would believe, and truly believe, he’s going down. All this comes from a lack of understanding of the real upper, middle, and lower regions. A similar confusion occurs with pleasure and pain, and many other things. A person comparing gray to black calls gray white; and someone who compares the absence of pain to pain calls the absence of pain pleasure. Hunger and thirst are signs of the body’s need, ignorance and folly of the soul; and food satisfies one, while knowledge satisfies the other. Now, which satisfaction is purer—eating and drinking, or knowledge? Think about it this way: The satisfaction derived from something with more existence is truer than from something with less. The constant and eternal has a truer existence than what is changeable and mortal, along with a fitting measure of knowledge and truth. The soul has more existence, truth, and knowledge than the body, and is thus more genuinely satisfied and experiences more natural pleasure. Those who only feast on earthly food keep wandering up to the middle and back down; they never reach the true upper world or experience real pleasure. They’re like fattened animals, full of greed and sensuality, ready to turn on each other due to their endless desire; they are not filled with true existence, and their vessel is leaky (Gorgias). Their pleasures are merely shadows of pleasure, mixed with pain, enhanced and intensified by contrast, and therefore intensely sought after; and people fight over them, just like Stesichorus says the Greeks fought over the shadow of Helen in Troy, because they don’t know the truth.

The same may be said of the passionate element:—the desires of the ambitious soul, as well as of the covetous, have an inferior satisfaction. Only when under the guidance of reason do either of the other principles do their own business or attain the pleasure which is natural to them. When not attaining, they compel the other parts of the soul to pursue a shadow of pleasure which is not theirs. And the more distant they are from philosophy and reason, the more distant they will be from law and order, and the more illusive will be their pleasures. The desires of love and tyranny are the farthest from law, and those of the king are nearest to it. There is one genuine pleasure, and two spurious ones: the tyrant goes beyond even the latter; he has run away altogether from law and reason. Nor can the measure of his inferiority be told, except in a figure. The tyrant is the third removed from the oligarch, and has therefore, not a shadow of his pleasure, but the shadow of a shadow only. The oligarch, again, is thrice removed from the king, and thus we get the formula 3 x 3, which is the number of a surface, representing the shadow which is the tyrant’s pleasure, and if you like to cube this ‘number of the beast,’ you will find that the measure of the difference amounts to 729; the king is 729 times more happy than the tyrant. And this extraordinary number is NEARLY equal to the number of days and nights in a year (365 x 2 = 730); and is therefore concerned with human life. This is the interval between a good and bad man in happiness only: what must be the difference between them in comeliness of life and virtue!

The same can be said about the passionate aspect: the desires of an ambitious person, as well as those of a greedy one, have a lower level of satisfaction. Only when they are guided by reason do these principles truly function or find the pleasure that is natural to them. When they fail to achieve this, they force the other parts of the soul to chase after a false pleasure that isn't theirs. The farther they drift from philosophy and reason, the farther they will be from law and order, and the more illusory their pleasures will become. The desires driven by love and tyranny are the farthest from law, while those of the king are closest to it. There is one true pleasure and two fake ones: the tyrant goes even beyond the latter; he has completely escaped from law and reason. The measure of his inferiority can only be expressed mathematically. The tyrant is the third removed from the oligarch and thus has not just a shadow of his pleasure but only the shadow of a shadow. The oligarch, in turn, is three times removed from the king, leading us to the equation 3 x 3, which represents the surface area of the shadow that constitutes the tyrant’s pleasure. If you take this "number of the beast" and cube it, you will find that the measure of the difference is 729; the king is 729 times happier than the tyrant. This extraordinary number is nearly equal to the number of days and nights in a year (365 x 2 = 730) and is, therefore, related to human life. This illustrates the gap in happiness between a good person and a bad one: just imagine the difference between them in terms of the beauty of life and virtue!

Perhaps you may remember some one saying at the beginning of our discussion that the unjust man was profited if he had the reputation of justice. Now that we know the nature of justice and injustice, let us make an image of the soul, which will personify his words. First of all, fashion a multitudinous beast, having a ring of heads of all manner of animals, tame and wild, and able to produce and change them at pleasure. Suppose now another form of a lion, and another of a man; the second smaller than the first, the third than the second; join them together and cover them with a human skin, in which they are completely concealed. When this has been done, let us tell the supporter of injustice that he is feeding up the beasts and starving the man. The maintainer of justice, on the other hand, is trying to strengthen the man; he is nourishing the gentle principle within him, and making an alliance with the lion heart, in order that he may be able to keep down the many-headed hydra, and bring all into unity with each other and with themselves. Thus in every point of view, whether in relation to pleasure, honour, or advantage, the just man is right, and the unjust wrong.

Maybe you recall someone saying at the start of our discussion that an unjust person benefits if they have a reputation for being just. Now that we understand the nature of justice and injustice, let’s create an image of the soul that captures this idea. First, imagine a many-headed beast with heads from all kinds of animals, both tame and wild, that can produce and change them at will. Now picture a lion and a man, with the man smaller than the lion and the second man smaller than the first; join them together and cover them with human skin so they’re completely hidden. Once that’s done, let’s point out to the supporter of injustice that they’re feeding the beasts while starving the man. Meanwhile, the supporter of justice is working to strengthen the man; they’re nurturing the gentle part of him and making an alliance with the lion’s heart so he can control the many-headed hydra and unite everything with itself and each other. Thus, in every respect—whether it’s about pleasure, honor, or benefit—the just person is right, and the unjust is wrong.

But now, let us reason with the unjust, who is not intentionally in error. Is not the noble that which subjects the beast to the man, or rather to the God in man; the ignoble, that which subjects the man to the beast? And if so, who would receive gold on condition that he was to degrade the noblest part of himself under the worst?—who would sell his son or daughter into the hands of brutal and evil men, for any amount of money? And will he sell his own fairer and diviner part without any compunction to the most godless and foul? Would he not be worse than Eriphyle, who sold her husband’s life for a necklace? And intemperance is the letting loose of the multiform monster, and pride and sullenness are the growth and increase of the lion and serpent element, while luxury and effeminacy are caused by a too great relaxation of spirit. Flattery and meanness again arise when the spirited element is subjected to avarice, and the lion is habituated to become a monkey. The real disgrace of handicraft arts is, that those who are engaged in them have to flatter, instead of mastering their desires; therefore we say that they should be placed under the control of the better principle in another because they have none in themselves; not, as Thrasymachus imagined, to the injury of the subjects, but for their good. And our intention in educating the young, is to give them self-control; the law desires to nurse up in them a higher principle, and when they have acquired this, they may go their ways.

But now, let's reason with the unjust, who isn't intentionally in the wrong. Isn't it noble to bring the beast under the control of man, or better yet, to the God within man? And isn't it ignoble to let man be ruled by the beast? If that's the case, who would accept gold knowing they had to degrade their highest self for something low? Who would sell their son or daughter to cruel and evil people for any sum of money? Would they sell their own nobler and divine part without any guilt to the most godless and vile? Wouldn't that person be worse than Eriphyle, who sold her husband's life for a necklace? Intemperance unleashes the many-faced monster, while pride and sullenness signify the growth of the lion and serpent within. Luxury and softness come from an excessive relaxation of spirit. Flattery and pettiness arise when ambition is subjected to greed, turning the lion into a monkey. The real disgrace of manual labor is that those who engage in it must flatter instead of mastering their desires; that's why we believe they should be guided by a higher principle from someone else, since they lack one themselves—not, as Thrasymachus thought, to harm the workers, but for their own good. Our goal in educating the young is to instill self-control in them; the law aims to nurture a higher principle within them, and once they have that, they can find their own way.

‘What, then, shall a man profit, if he gain the whole world’ and become more and more wicked? Or what shall he profit by escaping discovery, if the concealment of evil prevents the cure? If he had been punished, the brute within him would have been silenced, and the gentler element liberated; and he would have united temperance, justice, and wisdom in his soul—a union better far than any combination of bodily gifts. The man of understanding will honour knowledge above all; in the next place he will keep under his body, not only for the sake of health and strength, but in order to attain the most perfect harmony of body and soul. In the acquisition of riches, too, he will aim at order and harmony; he will not desire to heap up wealth without measure, but he will fear that the increase of wealth will disturb the constitution of his own soul. For the same reason he will only accept such honours as will make him a better man; any others he will decline. ‘In that case,’ said he, ‘he will never be a politician.’ Yes, but he will, in his own city; though probably not in his native country, unless by some divine accident. ‘You mean that he will be a citizen of the ideal city, which has no place upon earth.’ But in heaven, I replied, there is a pattern of such a city, and he who wishes may order his life after that image. Whether such a state is or ever will be matters not; he will act according to that pattern and no other...

‘What, then, will a person gain if they acquire the whole world’ and become increasingly wicked? Or what is the point of avoiding discovery if hiding evil stops the possibility of healing? If he had been punished, the beast within him would have been quieted, and the kinder part would have been freed; he would have brought together self-control, fairness, and wisdom within his soul—a union far better than any combination of physical gifts. A wise person will value knowledge above all else; next, they will discipline their body, not just for health and strength, but to achieve the most complete harmony of body and soul. In the pursuit of wealth, too, they will seek order and balance; they won’t want to amass riches without limits, fearing that an increase in wealth will unsettle their soul. For this reason, they will only accept honors that will make them a better person; any others they will refuse. ‘In that case,’ he said, 'he will never be a politician.' Yes, but he will in his own city; though probably not in his native land, unless by some divine chance. 'You mean he will be a citizen of the ideal city, which doesn't exist on earth.' But in heaven, I replied, there is a model of such a city, and anyone who wishes can shape their life to reflect that image. Whether such a state exists or will ever exist is irrelevant; he will act according to that model and no other...

The most noticeable points in the 9th Book of the Republic are:—(1) the account of pleasure; (2) the number of the interval which divides the king from the tyrant; (3) the pattern which is in heaven.

The most noticeable points in the 9th Book of the Republic are:—(1) the discussion of pleasure; (2) the difference between the king and the tyrant; (3) the model that exists in heaven.

1. Plato’s account of pleasure is remarkable for moderation, and in this respect contrasts with the later Platonists and the views which are attributed to them by Aristotle. He is not, like the Cynics, opposed to all pleasure, but rather desires that the several parts of the soul shall have their natural satisfaction; he even agrees with the Epicureans in describing pleasure as something more than the absence of pain. This is proved by the circumstance that there are pleasures which have no antecedent pains (as he also remarks in the Philebus), such as the pleasures of smell, and also the pleasures of hope and anticipation. In the previous book he had made the distinction between necessary and unnecessary pleasure, which is repeated by Aristotle, and he now observes that there are a further class of ‘wild beast’ pleasures, corresponding to Aristotle’s (Greek). He dwells upon the relative and unreal character of sensual pleasures and the illusion which arises out of the contrast of pleasure and pain, pointing out the superiority of the pleasures of reason, which are at rest, over the fleeting pleasures of sense and emotion. The pre-eminence of royal pleasure is shown by the fact that reason is able to form a judgment of the lower pleasures, while the two lower parts of the soul are incapable of judging the pleasures of reason. Thus, in his treatment of pleasure, as in many other subjects, the philosophy of Plato is ‘sawn up into quantities’ by Aristotle; the analysis which was originally made by him became in the next generation the foundation of further technical distinctions. Both in Plato and Aristotle we note the illusion under which the ancients fell of regarding the transience of pleasure as a proof of its unreality, and of confounding the permanence of the intellectual pleasures with the unchangeableness of the knowledge from which they are derived. Neither do we like to admit that the pleasures of knowledge, though more elevating, are not more lasting than other pleasures, and are almost equally dependent on the accidents of our bodily state (Introduction to Philebus).

1. Plato's view on pleasure is notable for its balance, which sets it apart from the later Platonists and the interpretations attributed to them by Aristotle. He doesn’t completely reject pleasure like the Cynics do; instead, he believes that each part of the soul should experience its natural satisfaction. He even shares with the Epicureans the idea that pleasure is more than just the absence of pain. This is evidenced by the fact that there are pleasures that don’t arise from previous pains (as he mentions in the Philebus), such as the pleasures of smell and the joys of hope and anticipation. In the previous book, he distinguished between necessary and unnecessary pleasures, a distinction that Aristotle later repeats, and he now points out another category of ‘wild beast’ pleasures, similar to Aristotle’s (Greek). He emphasizes the relative and illusory nature of sensual pleasures and the confusion that arises from contrasting pleasure and pain, highlighting that the pleasures of reason, which are stable, are superior to the temporary pleasures of the senses and emotions. The greatness of royal pleasure is illustrated by reason’s ability to judge lower pleasures, while the lower aspects of the soul cannot evaluate the pleasures of reason. Thus, in his discussion of pleasure, as with many other topics, Plato's philosophy is 'chopped up into pieces' by Aristotle; the original analysis he provided became the basis for more detailed distinctions in the following generation. Both Plato and Aristotle demonstrate the ancient misconception of viewing the fleeting nature of pleasure as evidence of its unreality and confusing the lasting nature of intellectual pleasures with the permanence of the knowledge that informs them. We also tend to resist acknowledging that the pleasures of knowledge, while more fulfilling, are not necessarily longer-lasting than other pleasures and are almost equally affected by our physical conditions (Introduction to Philebus).

2. The number of the interval which separates the king from the tyrant, and royal from tyrannical pleasures, is 729, the cube of 9. Which Plato characteristically designates as a number concerned with human life, because NEARLY equivalent to the number of days and nights in the year. He is desirous of proclaiming that the interval between them is immeasurable, and invents a formula to give expression to his idea. Those who spoke of justice as a cube, of virtue as an art of measuring (Prot.), saw no inappropriateness in conceiving the soul under the figure of a line, or the pleasure of the tyrant as separated from the pleasure of the king by the numerical interval of 729. And in modern times we sometimes use metaphorically what Plato employed as a philosophical formula. ‘It is not easy to estimate the loss of the tyrant, except perhaps in this way,’ says Plato. So we might say, that although the life of a good man is not to be compared to that of a bad man, yet you may measure the difference between them by valuing one minute of the one at an hour of the other (‘One day in thy courts is better than a thousand’), or you might say that ‘there is an infinite difference.’ But this is not so much as saying, in homely phrase, ‘They are a thousand miles asunder.’ And accordingly Plato finds the natural vehicle of his thoughts in a progression of numbers; this arithmetical formula he draws out with the utmost seriousness, and both here and in the number of generation seems to find an additional proof of the truth of his speculation in forming the number into a geometrical figure; just as persons in our own day are apt to fancy that a statement is verified when it has been only thrown into an abstract form. In speaking of the number 729 as proper to human life, he probably intended to intimate that one year of the tyrannical = 12 hours of the royal life.

2. The distance between the king and the tyrant, and between royal and tyrannical pleasures, is 729, which is the cube of 9. Plato refers to this number as significant to human life because it is nearly equal to the number of days and nights in a year. He wants to emphasize that the gap between them is beyond measurement, and he creates a formula to express this idea. Those who described justice as a cube and virtue as a way of measuring didn’t find it odd to picture the soul as a line or to see the tyrant's pleasure as separated from the king's pleasure by the numerical gap of 729. In modern times, we sometimes use metaphors similar to what Plato used as a philosophical formula. "It is not easy to assess the loss of the tyrant, except perhaps in this way," Plato states. So we might say that, even though the life of a good person can't be compared to that of a bad person, you could measure the difference between them by valuing one minute of the good person's life as equivalent to an hour of the bad person's life (“One day in thy courts is better than a thousand”), or you might argue that “there is an infinite difference.” But that’s just another way of saying, in plain terms, “They are a thousand miles apart.” Thus, Plato expresses his ideas through a sequence of numbers; he takes this mathematical formula very seriously, and both in this context and in the number of generation, he seems to find extra evidence supporting his ideas by shaping the number into a geometric figure—just as people today often think a claim is validated when it is presented in an abstract form. By calling the number 729 fitting for human life, he likely meant to suggest that one year of tyrannical life equals 12 hours of royal existence.

The simple observation that the comparison of two similar solids is effected by the comparison of the cubes of their sides, is the mathematical groundwork of this fanciful expression. There is some difficulty in explaining the steps by which the number 729 is obtained; the oligarch is removed in the third degree from the royal and aristocratical, and the tyrant in the third degree from the oligarchical; but we have to arrange the terms as the sides of a square and to count the oligarch twice over, thus reckoning them not as = 5 but as = 9. The square of 9 is passed lightly over as only a step towards the cube.

The basic idea that comparing two similar solids involves comparing the cubes of their sides is the mathematical foundation of this elaborate expression. It’s somewhat tricky to explain how the number 729 is derived; the oligarch is three steps away from the royal and aristocratic class, and the tyrant is three steps away from the oligarchic class. However, we need to organize the terms like the sides of a square and count the oligarch twice, so we treat them as = 9 instead of = 5. The square of 9 is quickly overlooked, as it’s just a step toward the cube.

3. Towards the close of the Republic, Plato seems to be more and more convinced of the ideal character of his own speculations. At the end of the 9th Book the pattern which is in heaven takes the place of the city of philosophers on earth. The vision which has received form and substance at his hands, is now discovered to be at a distance. And yet this distant kingdom is also the rule of man’s life. (‘Say not lo! here, or lo! there, for the kingdom of God is within you.’) Thus a note is struck which prepares for the revelation of a future life in the following Book. But the future life is present still; the ideal of politics is to be realized in the individual.

3. Towards the end of the Republic, Plato seems increasingly convinced of the ideal nature of his own ideas. At the conclusion of the 9th Book, the ideal realm in heaven replaces the city of philosophers on earth. The vision that he has shaped and given form to is now revealed to be far away. Yet, this distant kingdom is still the guiding principle of human life. ('Don’t say, “Look! Here!” or “Look! There!” for the kingdom of God is within you.') Thus, a theme is introduced that sets the stage for the revelation of a future life in the next Book. However, this future life still exists now; the ideal of politics is meant to be realized in individuals.

BOOK X. Many things pleased me in the order of our State, but there was nothing which I liked better than the regulation about poetry. The division of the soul throws a new light on our exclusion of imitation. I do not mind telling you in confidence that all poetry is an outrage on the understanding, unless the hearers have that balm of knowledge which heals error. I have loved Homer ever since I was a boy, and even now he appears to me to be the great master of tragic poetry. But much as I love the man, I love truth more, and therefore I must speak out: and first of all, will you explain what is imitation, for really I do not understand? ‘How likely then that I should understand!’ That might very well be, for the duller often sees better than the keener eye. ‘True, but in your presence I can hardly venture to say what I think.’ Then suppose that we begin in our old fashion, with the doctrine of universals. Let us assume the existence of beds and tables. There is one idea of a bed, or of a table, which the maker of each had in his mind when making them; he did not make the ideas of beds and tables, but he made beds and tables according to the ideas. And is there not a maker of the works of all workmen, who makes not only vessels but plants and animals, himself, the earth and heaven, and things in heaven and under the earth? He makes the Gods also. ‘He must be a wizard indeed!’ But do you not see that there is a sense in which you could do the same? You have only to take a mirror, and catch the reflection of the sun, and the earth, or anything else—there now you have made them. ‘Yes, but only in appearance.’ Exactly so; and the painter is such a creator as you are with the mirror, and he is even more unreal than the carpenter; although neither the carpenter nor any other artist can be supposed to make the absolute bed. ‘Not if philosophers may be believed.’ Nor need we wonder that his bed has but an imperfect relation to the truth. Reflect:—Here are three beds; one in nature, which is made by God; another, which is made by the carpenter; and the third, by the painter. God only made one, nor could he have made more than one; for if there had been two, there would always have been a third—more absolute and abstract than either, under which they would have been included. We may therefore conceive God to be the natural maker of the bed, and in a lower sense the carpenter is also the maker; but the painter is rather the imitator of what the other two make; he has to do with a creation which is thrice removed from reality. And the tragic poet is an imitator, and, like every other imitator, is thrice removed from the king and from the truth. The painter imitates not the original bed, but the bed made by the carpenter. And this, without being really different, appears to be different, and has many points of view, of which only one is caught by the painter, who represents everything because he represents a piece of everything, and that piece an image. And he can paint any other artist, although he knows nothing of their arts; and this with sufficient skill to deceive children or simple people. Suppose now that somebody came to us and told us, how he had met a man who knew all that everybody knows, and better than anybody:—should we not infer him to be a simpleton who, having no discernment of truth and falsehood, had met with a wizard or enchanter, whom he fancied to be all-wise? And when we hear persons saying that Homer and the tragedians know all the arts and all the virtues, must we not infer that they are under a similar delusion? they do not see that the poets are imitators, and that their creations are only imitations. ‘Very true.’ But if a person could create as well as imitate, he would rather leave some permanent work and not an imitation only; he would rather be the receiver than the giver of praise? ‘Yes, for then he would have more honour and advantage.’

BOOK X. There are many things I appreciate about our State, but nothing pleases me more than the rules about poetry. The division of the soul sheds new light on why we exclude imitation. I’ll tell you honestly, all poetry is an offense to understanding unless listeners have that knowledge that corrects mistakes. I have admired Homer since I was young, and even now, I see him as the great master of tragic poetry. But as much as I love him, I love the truth more, and so I must be honest: can you explain what imitation is? Because honestly, I don’t get it. "How likely am I to understand?" That might be true since sometimes those who are less sharp can see things better than the keen-eyed. "True, but in your company, I can hardly say what I think." How about we start with our usual approach, discussing the concept of universals? Let’s assume there are beds and tables. There’s one idea of a bed or a table that the maker had in mind while making them; he didn’t create the ideas of beds and tables, but he made them based on those ideas. And isn’t there a maker of everything that craftsmen create, who makes not just vessels but also plants, animals, the earth, the heavens, and everything in them? He even creates the gods. "He must truly be a wizard!" But can’t you see that in a way, you could do the same? Just take a mirror and catch the reflection of the sun, the earth, or anything else—you’ve made them. "Yes, but only in appearance." Exactly; and the painter is a creator just like you with the mirror, and he’s even less real than the carpenter is—though neither the carpenter nor any artist can be said to make the ideal bed. "Unless we trust the philosophers." And we shouldn’t be surprised that his bed has an imperfect relation to the truth. Think about it: Here are three beds; one in nature, made by God; another made by the carpenter; and the third by the painter. God made only one, because if there were two, there would always be a third—more absolute and abstract than either, that includes them both. So we can see God as the natural maker of the bed, and in a lower sense, the carpenter is also a maker; but the painter is really just an imitator of what the other two created; his work is three times removed from reality. The painter imitates not the original bed, but the bed created by the carpenter. And while this doesn't really differ, it seems different and has many angles, of which only one is captured by the painter, who portrays everything because he represents part of everything, and that part is just an image. He can even paint any other artist, despite knowing nothing about their craft; and he’s skilled enough to fool children or simple people. Now, suppose someone came to us saying they met a person who knows everything better than anyone else: should we not assume they’re a fool who, lacking the ability to discern truth from falsehood, has encountered a wizard or enchanter they believe is all-knowing? And when we hear people claiming that Homer and the tragedians are experts in all the arts and virtues, shouldn’t we think they are similarly deluded? They fail to see that poets are imitators, and their creations are just imitations. "Very true." But if someone could create as well as imitate, wouldn’t they prefer to leave something lasting rather than just an imitation? Would they not rather receive praise than give it? "Yes, because then they would gain more honor and benefit."

Let us now interrogate Homer and the poets. Friend Homer, say I to him, I am not going to ask you about medicine, or any art to which your poems incidentally refer, but about their main subjects—war, military tactics, politics. If you are only twice and not thrice removed from the truth—not an imitator or an image-maker, please to inform us what good you have ever done to mankind? Is there any city which professes to have received laws from you, as Sicily and Italy have from Charondas, Sparta from Lycurgus, Athens from Solon? Or was any war ever carried on by your counsels? or is any invention attributed to you, as there is to Thales and Anacharsis? Or is there any Homeric way of life, such as the Pythagorean was, in which you instructed men, and which is called after you? ‘No, indeed; and Creophylus (Flesh-child) was even more unfortunate in his breeding than he was in his name, if, as tradition says, Homer in his lifetime was allowed by him and his other friends to starve.’ Yes, but could this ever have happened if Homer had really been the educator of Hellas? Would he not have had many devoted followers? If Protagoras and Prodicus can persuade their contemporaries that no one can manage house or State without them, is it likely that Homer and Hesiod would have been allowed to go about as beggars—I mean if they had really been able to do the world any good?—would not men have compelled them to stay where they were, or have followed them about in order to get education? But they did not; and therefore we may infer that Homer and all the poets are only imitators, who do but imitate the appearances of things. For as a painter by a knowledge of figure and colour can paint a cobbler without any practice in cobbling, so the poet can delineate any art in the colours of language, and give harmony and rhythm to the cobbler and also to the general; and you know how mere narration, when deprived of the ornaments of metre, is like a face which has lost the beauty of youth and never had any other. Once more, the imitator has no knowledge of reality, but only of appearance. The painter paints, and the artificer makes a bridle and reins, but neither understands the use of them—the knowledge of this is confined to the horseman; and so of other things. Thus we have three arts: one of use, another of invention, a third of imitation; and the user furnishes the rule to the two others. The flute-player will know the good and bad flute, and the maker will put faith in him; but the imitator will neither know nor have faith—neither science nor true opinion can be ascribed to him. Imitation, then, is devoid of knowledge, being only a kind of play or sport, and the tragic and epic poets are imitators in the highest degree.

Let's now question Homer and the poets. "Hey, Homer," I say to him, "I'm not going to ask you about medicine or any skills your poems touch on, but about their main topics—war, military strategy, politics. If you're only twice removed from the truth—not an imitator or a mere image-maker—please tell us what good you've ever done for humanity. Is there any city that claims to have received laws from you, like Sicily and Italy received from Charondas, Sparta from Lycurgus, or Athens from Solon? Did any wars happen because of your advice? Or do people credit you with any inventions, like they do with Thales and Anacharsis? Is there a way of life that you taught, like the Pythagorean way, which is named after you? 'No, of course not; and Creophylus (Flesh-child) was even more unfortunate in his background than in his name if, as tradition says, Homer was allowed to starve by him and his other friends during his lifetime.' Yes, but could this ever have happened if Homer had truly been the teacher of Greece? Wouldn't he have had many loyal followers? If Protagoras and Prodicus can convince their peers that no one can manage a household or a state without them, is it likely that Homer and Hesiod would have been left to wander as beggars—if they genuinely could benefit the world? Wouldn't people have forced them to stay in one place or followed them around to learn? But they didn't; and so we can conclude that Homer and all the poets are merely imitators, who only mimic the appearances of things. Just as a painter, through knowledge of form and color, can depict a cobbler without having ever cobbled, the poet can portray any skill using the language and give harmony and rhythm to both the cobbler and the general. And we all know how plain narration, stripped of the beauty of meter, resembles a face that has lost its youthful charm and never possessed any other. Once again, the imitator lacks understanding of reality, only knowing appearances. The painter paints, and the craftsman makes a bridle and reins, but neither truly grasps their purpose—the knowledge of that belongs only to the horseman; and the same goes for other things. Thus, we identify three types of skills: one of use, another of invention, and a third of imitation; and the user sets the standard for the other two. The flute player knows what makes a good flute and what doesn't, and the maker trusts him. But the imitator knows neither and has no faith—neither true knowledge nor accurate opinion can be attributed to him. Imitation, then, lacks true understanding, being merely a form of play or sport, and the tragic and epic poets are the ultimate imitators.

And now let us enquire, what is the faculty in man which answers to imitation. Allow me to explain my meaning: Objects are differently seen when in the water and when out of the water, when near and when at a distance; and the painter or juggler makes use of this variation to impose upon us. And the art of measuring and weighing and calculating comes in to save our bewildered minds from the power of appearance; for, as we were saying, two contrary opinions of the same about the same and at the same time, cannot both of them be true. But which of them is true is determined by the art of calculation; and this is allied to the better faculty in the soul, as the arts of imitation are to the worse. And the same holds of the ear as well as of the eye, of poetry as well as painting. The imitation is of actions voluntary or involuntary, in which there is an expectation of a good or bad result, and present experience of pleasure and pain. But is a man in harmony with himself when he is the subject of these conflicting influences? Is there not rather a contradiction in him? Let me further ask, whether he is more likely to control sorrow when he is alone or when he is in company. ‘In the latter case.’ Feeling would lead him to indulge his sorrow, but reason and law control him and enjoin patience; since he cannot know whether his affliction is good or evil, and no human thing is of any great consequence, while sorrow is certainly a hindrance to good counsel. For when we stumble, we should not, like children, make an uproar; we should take the measures which reason prescribes, not raising a lament, but finding a cure. And the better part of us is ready to follow reason, while the irrational principle is full of sorrow and distraction at the recollection of our troubles. Unfortunately, however, this latter furnishes the chief materials of the imitative arts. Whereas reason is ever in repose and cannot easily be displayed, especially to a mixed multitude who have no experience of her. Thus the poet is like the painter in two ways: first he paints an inferior degree of truth, and secondly, he is concerned with an inferior part of the soul. He indulges the feelings, while he enfeebles the reason; and we refuse to allow him to have authority over the mind of man; for he has no measure of greater and less, and is a maker of images and very far gone from truth.

And now let’s ask, what part of us responds to imitation? Let me clarify what I mean: things look different when they're in water versus out of water, when they’re close versus far away; and artists like painters or jugglers take advantage of this difference to trick us. The ability to measure, weigh, and calculate helps us make sense of these confusing appearances; because, as we said, two opposing opinions about the same matter at the same time can't both be true. Which one is true is figured out through calculation, which connects to the better part of our soul, just as the arts of imitation connect to the weaker part. This also applies to hearing as well as seeing, to poetry just like painting. Imitation involves actions that are either voluntary or involuntary, where there’s an expectation of a positive or negative outcome, along with current feelings of pleasure or pain. But is a person truly balanced when they experience these conflicting influences? Isn’t there a contradiction within them? Let me also ask, are they more likely to manage their sorrow when they’re alone or with others? “In the latter case.” Emotion might make them give in to their sadness, while reason and society demand patience; since they can't tell if their suffering is good or bad, and nothing human is of great significance, while sorrow definitely gets in the way of wise decisions. When we trip, we shouldn't throw a fit like children; we should take the steps that reason suggests, not cry out, but look for a solution. The better part of us is ready to follow reason, while the irrational side is overwhelmed with sorrow and distraction over our troubles. Unfortunately, this latter side provides most of the material for the arts of imitation. On the other hand, reason is generally calm and can't be easily shown, especially to a mixed crowd that doesn’t understand it. Thus, the poet is similar to the painter in two main ways: first, he portrays a lower level of truth, and second, he deals with a lesser aspect of the soul. He caters to emotions while weakening reason; and we don’t give him authority over human thoughts; because he lacks a sense of what’s greater or lesser, and is merely a creator of images, far removed from the truth.

But we have not yet mentioned the heaviest count in the indictment—the power which poetry has of injuriously exciting the feelings. When we hear some passage in which a hero laments his sufferings at tedious length, you know that we sympathize with him and praise the poet; and yet in our own sorrows such an exhibition of feeling is regarded as effeminate and unmanly (Ion). Now, ought a man to feel pleasure in seeing another do what he hates and abominates in himself? Is he not giving way to a sentiment which in his own case he would control?—he is off his guard because the sorrow is another’s; and he thinks that he may indulge his feelings without disgrace, and will be the gainer by the pleasure. But the inevitable consequence is that he who begins by weeping at the sorrows of others, will end by weeping at his own. The same is true of comedy,—you may often laugh at buffoonery which you would be ashamed to utter, and the love of coarse merriment on the stage will at last turn you into a buffoon at home. Poetry feeds and waters the passions and desires; she lets them rule instead of ruling them. And therefore, when we hear the encomiasts of Homer affirming that he is the educator of Hellas, and that all life should be regulated by his precepts, we may allow the excellence of their intentions, and agree with them in thinking Homer a great poet and tragedian. But we shall continue to prohibit all poetry which goes beyond hymns to the Gods and praises of famous men. Not pleasure and pain, but law and reason shall rule in our State.

But we haven't talked about the biggest issue in the indictment—the way poetry can harm our feelings. When we hear a passage where a hero painfully talks about his struggles, we sympathize and praise the poet; yet, in our own pain, acting that way is seen as weak and unmanly (Ion). Should a man take pleasure in watching someone do what he despises in himself? Isn't he giving in to a feeling he would suppress in his own case?—he lets his guard down because the sorrow belongs to someone else; he thinks he can show his emotions without shame and that he'll benefit from the enjoyment. But the inevitable result is that someone who starts crying for others' misfortunes will end up crying for his own. The same goes for comedy—you often laugh at silly antics that you would be embarrassed to say yourself, and a love for crude humor on stage will eventually turn you into a clown at home. Poetry nurtures and encourages our passions and desires; it lets them take control instead of managing them. So, when we hear Homer’s admirers claim that he is the teacher of Greece and that all life should follow his guidance, we can appreciate their good intentions and agree that Homer is a great poet and dramatist. However, we will still ban poetry that goes beyond hymns to the gods and praises of great people. Not pleasure and pain, but law and reason will govern our State.

These are our grounds for expelling poetry; but lest she should charge us with discourtesy, let us also make an apology to her. We will remind her that there is an ancient quarrel between poetry and philosophy, of which there are many traces in the writings of the poets, such as the saying of ‘the she-dog, yelping at her mistress,’ and ‘the philosophers who are ready to circumvent Zeus,’ and ‘the philosophers who are paupers.’ Nevertheless we bear her no ill-will, and will gladly allow her to return upon condition that she makes a defence of herself in verse; and her supporters who are not poets may speak in prose. We confess her charms; but if she cannot show that she is useful as well as delightful, like rational lovers, we must renounce our love, though endeared to us by early associations. Having come to years of discretion, we know that poetry is not truth, and that a man should be careful how he introduces her to that state or constitution which he himself is; for there is a mighty issue at stake—no less than the good or evil of a human soul. And it is not worth while to forsake justice and virtue for the attractions of poetry, any more than for the sake of honour or wealth. ‘I agree with you.’

These are our reasons for expelling poetry; however, so she doesn’t see us as rude, let’s also apologize to her. We’ll remind her that there’s an old conflict between poetry and philosophy, evident in many writings of the poets, like the idea of ‘the she-dog barking at her owner,’ and ‘the philosophers looking to outsmart Zeus,’ and ‘the philosophers who are broke.’ Still, we hold no resentment against her and will gladly welcome her back if she defends herself in verse; her supporters who aren’t poets can speak in prose. We acknowledge her appeal, but if she can’t demonstrate that she’s both useful and enjoyable, like wise lovers, we will have to give up our affection for her, even if we have fond memories connected to it. Now that we’re more discerning, we realize that poetry isn’t the same as truth, and we should be cautious about how we present her to a society or state that reflects who we are; because the stakes are high—it's nothing less than the good or bad of a human soul. It's not worth abandoning justice and virtue for the allure of poetry any more than it is for the sake of honor or wealth. “I agree with you.”

And yet the rewards of virtue are greater far than I have described. ‘And can we conceive things greater still?’ Not, perhaps, in this brief span of life: but should an immortal being care about anything short of eternity? ‘I do not understand what you mean?’ Do you not know that the soul is immortal? ‘Surely you are not prepared to prove that?’ Indeed I am. ‘Then let me hear this argument, of which you make so light.’

And yet the rewards of being virtuous are far greater than I've explained. ‘Can we even imagine greater things?’ Maybe not in this short life: but should an immortal being really care about anything less than eternity? ‘I don’t understand what you’re getting at.’ Don’t you know that the soul is immortal? ‘Surely you’re not going to prove that?’ Actually, I am. ‘Then let me hear this argument that you think is so simple.’

You would admit that everything has an element of good and of evil. In all things there is an inherent corruption; and if this cannot destroy them, nothing else will. The soul too has her own corrupting principles, which are injustice, intemperance, cowardice, and the like. But none of these destroy the soul in the same sense that disease destroys the body. The soul may be full of all iniquities, but is not, by reason of them, brought any nearer to death. Nothing which was not destroyed from within ever perished by external affection of evil. The body, which is one thing, cannot be destroyed by food, which is another, unless the badness of the food is communicated to the body. Neither can the soul, which is one thing, be corrupted by the body, which is another, unless she herself is infected. And as no bodily evil can infect the soul, neither can any bodily evil, whether disease or violence, or any other destroy the soul, unless it can be shown to render her unholy and unjust. But no one will ever prove that the souls of men become more unjust when they die. If a person has the audacity to say the contrary, the answer is—Then why do criminals require the hand of the executioner, and not die of themselves? ‘Truly,’ he said, ‘injustice would not be very terrible if it brought a cessation of evil; but I rather believe that the injustice which murders others may tend to quicken and stimulate the life of the unjust.’ You are quite right. If sin which is her own natural and inherent evil cannot destroy the soul, hardly will anything else destroy her. But the soul which cannot be destroyed either by internal or external evil must be immortal and everlasting. And if this be true, souls will always exist in the same number. They cannot diminish, because they cannot be destroyed; nor yet increase, for the increase of the immortal must come from something mortal, and so all would end in immortality. Neither is the soul variable and diverse; for that which is immortal must be of the fairest and simplest composition. If we would conceive her truly, and so behold justice and injustice in their own nature, she must be viewed by the light of reason pure as at birth, or as she is reflected in philosophy when holding converse with the divine and immortal and eternal. In her present condition we see her only like the sea-god Glaucus, bruised and maimed in the sea which is the world, and covered with shells and stones which are incrusted upon her from the entertainments of earth.

You would agree that everything has a mix of good and evil. In everything, there’s an inherent corruption; and if this can’t destroy them, nothing else will. The soul also has its own corrupting traits, like injustice, intemperance, cowardice, and so on. But none of these destroy the soul in the same way that disease destroys the body. The soul can be filled with all kinds of wrongdoings, but that doesn’t bring it closer to death. Nothing that wasn’t destroyed from within ever perished from external evil. The body, which is one thing, can’t be destroyed by food, which is another, unless the badness of the food affects the body. Similarly, the soul, which is one thing, can’t be corrupted by the body, which is another, unless it becomes infected itself. And just as no physical evil can infect the soul, no physical evil, whether it’s disease, violence, or anything else, can destroy the soul unless it can be shown to make it unholy and unjust. But no one will ever prove that people’s souls become more unjust when they die. If someone has the nerve to say otherwise, the reply is—Then why do criminals need the executioner's hand and don’t just die on their own? “Truly,” he said, “injustice wouldn’t be so terrible if it led to a cessation of evil; but I believe that the injustice which murders others may actually invigorate and enhance the life of the unjust.” You’re absolutely right. If sin, which is its own natural and inherent evil, can’t destroy the soul, it’s hard to believe anything else could. But the soul that can’t be destroyed by internal or external evil must be immortal and everlasting. If this is true, souls will always exist in the same number. They can’t decrease because they can’t be destroyed; nor can they increase, as the increase of the immortal must come from something mortal, thus all would ultimately lead to immortality. The soul isn’t variable and diverse; because what is immortal must have the fairest and simplest composition. If we would truly understand it, and see justice and injustice in their true nature, the soul must be viewed through the light of pure reason, just like at birth, or as it is seen in philosophy when engaging with the divine, the immortal, and the eternal. In its current state, we only see it like the sea-god Glaucus, battered and scarred in the sea, which represents the world, and covered with shells and stones that have accumulated from the experiences of the earth.

Thus far, as the argument required, we have said nothing of the rewards and honours which the poets attribute to justice; we have contented ourselves with showing that justice in herself is best for the soul in herself, even if a man should put on a Gyges’ ring and have the helmet of Hades too. And now you shall repay me what you borrowed; and I will enumerate the rewards of justice in life and after death. I granted, for the sake of argument, as you will remember, that evil might perhaps escape the knowledge of Gods and men, although this was really impossible. And since I have shown that justice has reality, you must grant me also that she has the palm of appearance. In the first place, the just man is known to the Gods, and he is therefore the friend of the Gods, and he will receive at their hands every good, always excepting such evil as is the necessary consequence of former sins. All things end in good to him, either in life or after death, even what appears to be evil; for the Gods have a care of him who desires to be in their likeness. And what shall we say of men? Is not honesty the best policy? The clever rogue makes a great start at first, but breaks down before he reaches the goal, and slinks away in dishonour; whereas the true runner perseveres to the end, and receives the prize. And you must allow me to repeat all the blessings which you attributed to the fortunate unjust—they bear rule in the city, they marry and give in marriage to whom they will; and the evils which you attributed to the unfortunate just, do really fall in the end on the unjust, although, as you implied, their sufferings are better veiled in silence.

So far, as our discussion required, we haven’t mentioned the rewards and honors that poets say come from being just. We have simply shown that justice itself is best for the soul, even if someone wears Gyges’ ring and has Hades’ helmet. Now you need to repay me what you borrowed, and I will list the rewards of justice in life and after death. For the sake of argument, I agreed, as you’ll recall, that evil might somehow escape the notice of gods and humans, even though that’s really impossible. Since I’ve demonstrated that justice is real, you must also accept that it has an appearance of goodness. First off, the just man is known to the gods, which makes him their friend, and he will receive every good from them, except the evil that’s a necessary result of past sins. Everything ends well for him, whether in life or after death, even what seems to be bad; because the gods care for those who wish to be like them. What about people? Isn’t honesty the best approach? The clever trickster may start strong, but he stumbles before reaching the finish line and ultimately retreats in disgrace. Meanwhile, the true runner keeps going until the end and wins the prize. And you must let me restate all the blessings you associated with the lucky unjust—they hold power in the city, and they can marry whom they choose; and the problems you mentioned concerning the unlucky just actually end up falling on the unjust, although, as you suggested, their suffering tends to be better hidden.

But all the blessings of this present life are as nothing when compared with those which await good men after death. ‘I should like to hear about them.’ Come, then, and I will tell you the story of Er, the son of Armenius, a valiant man. He was supposed to have died in battle, but ten days afterwards his body was found untouched by corruption and sent home for burial. On the twelfth day he was placed on the funeral pyre and there he came to life again, and told what he had seen in the world below. He said that his soul went with a great company to a place, in which there were two chasms near together in the earth beneath, and two corresponding chasms in the heaven above. And there were judges sitting in the intermediate space, bidding the just ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand, having the seal of their judgment set upon them before, while the unjust, having the seal behind, were bidden to descend by the way on the left hand. Him they told to look and listen, as he was to be their messenger to men from the world below. And he beheld and saw the souls departing after judgment at either chasm; some who came from earth, were worn and travel-stained; others, who came from heaven, were clean and bright. They seemed glad to meet and rest awhile in the meadow; here they discoursed with one another of what they had seen in the other world. Those who came from earth wept at the remembrance of their sorrows, but the spirits from above spoke of glorious sights and heavenly bliss. He said that for every evil deed they were punished tenfold—now the journey was of a thousand years’ duration, because the life of man was reckoned as a hundred years—and the rewards of virtue were in the same proportion. He added something hardly worth repeating about infants dying almost as soon as they were born. Of parricides and other murderers he had tortures still more terrible to narrate. He was present when one of the spirits asked—Where is Ardiaeus the Great? (This Ardiaeus was a cruel tyrant, who had murdered his father, and his elder brother, a thousand years before.) Another spirit answered, ‘He comes not hither, and will never come. And I myself,’ he added, ‘actually saw this terrible sight. At the entrance of the chasm, as we were about to reascend, Ardiaeus appeared, and some other sinners—most of whom had been tyrants, but not all—and just as they fancied that they were returning to life, the chasm gave a roar, and then wild, fiery-looking men who knew the meaning of the sound, seized him and several others, and bound them hand and foot and threw them down, and dragged them along at the side of the road, lacerating them and carding them like wool, and explaining to the passers-by, that they were going to be cast into hell.’ The greatest terror of the pilgrims ascending was lest they should hear the voice, and when there was silence one by one they passed up with joy. To these sufferings there were corresponding delights.

But all the blessings of this life are nothing compared to what awaits good people after they die. “I’d like to hear about them.” Alright, let me tell you the story of Er, the son of Armenius, a brave man. He was thought to have died in battle, but ten days later, his body was found completely intact and sent home for burial. On the twelfth day, he was placed on the funeral pyre and came back to life, telling what he had seen in the underworld. He said that his soul traveled with a large group to a place where there were two chasms close together in the earth below, and two corresponding chasms in the sky above. There were judges sitting in the space between, directing the righteous to ascend by the heavenly path on the right, marked with their judgment seal, while the unjust, marked by a seal on the back, were told to descend by the path on the left. They instructed him to look and listen, as he would be their messenger to humans from the world below. He witnessed the souls departing after judgment at each chasm; some from earth looked worn and weary, while those from heaven appeared clean and bright. They seemed happy to reunite and rest in a meadow; here, they exchanged stories about what they had seen in the other world. Those from earth cried as they remembered their sorrows, while the spirits from above spoke of glorious sights and heavenly happiness. He mentioned that for every evil deed, they were punished ten times over—now the journey lasted a thousand years, because a hundred years was the measure of human life—and the rewards for virtue were proportionate. He added something that’s barely worth repeating about infants dying almost as soon as they were born. For parricides and other murderers, he had even more terrible tortures to relate. He was there when one spirit asked—Where is Ardiaeus the Great? (This Ardiaeus was a cruel tyrant who murdered his father and elder brother a thousand years earlier.) Another spirit replied, “He doesn’t come here and will never come. And I myself saw this dreadful sight. At the entrance of the chasm, just as we were about to ascend again, Ardiaeus appeared, along with some other sinners—most of whom had been tyrants, but not all—just as they thought they were returning to life. The chasm roared, and then wild-looking, fiery men who understood the meaning of that sound seized him and several others, bound them hand and foot, and dragged them along the roadside, tearing at them and carding them like wool, explaining to passersby that they were going to be cast into hell.” The greatest fear of the ascending pilgrims was that they would hear the voice, and when it was silent, one by one, they joyfully passed upward. For every one of these sufferings, there were corresponding delights.

On the eighth day the souls of the pilgrims resumed their journey, and in four days came to a spot whence they looked down upon a line of light, in colour like a rainbow, only brighter and clearer. One day more brought them to the place, and they saw that this was the column of light which binds together the whole universe. The ends of the column were fastened to heaven, and from them hung the distaff of Necessity, on which all the heavenly bodies turned—the hook and spindle were of adamant, and the whorl of a mixed substance. The whorl was in form like a number of boxes fitting into one another with their edges turned upwards, making together a single whorl which was pierced by the spindle. The outermost had the rim broadest, and the inner whorls were smaller and smaller, and had their rims narrower. The largest (the fixed stars) was spangled—the seventh (the sun) was brightest—the eighth (the moon) shone by the light of the seventh—the second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) were most like one another and yellower than the eighth—the third (Jupiter) had the whitest light—the fourth (Mars) was red—the sixth (Venus) was in whiteness second. The whole had one motion, but while this was revolving in one direction the seven inner circles were moving in the opposite, with various degrees of swiftness and slowness. The spindle turned on the knees of Necessity, and a Siren stood hymning upon each circle, while Lachesis, Clotho, and Atropos, the daughters of Necessity, sat on thrones at equal intervals, singing of past, present, and future, responsive to the music of the Sirens; Clotho from time to time guiding the outer circle with a touch of her right hand; Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner circles; Lachesis in turn putting forth her hand from time to time to guide both of them. On their arrival the pilgrims went to Lachesis, and there was an interpreter who arranged them, and taking from her knees lots, and samples of lives, got up into a pulpit and said: ‘Mortal souls, hear the words of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. A new period of mortal life has begun, and you may choose what divinity you please; the responsibility of choosing is with you—God is blameless.’ After speaking thus, he cast the lots among them and each one took up the lot which fell near him. He then placed on the ground before them the samples of lives, many more than the souls present; and there were all sorts of lives, of men and of animals. There were tyrannies ending in misery and exile, and lives of men and women famous for their different qualities; and also mixed lives, made up of wealth and poverty, sickness and health. Here, Glaucon, is the great risk of human life, and therefore the whole of education should be directed to the acquisition of such a knowledge as will teach a man to refuse the evil and choose the good. He should know all the combinations which occur in life—of beauty with poverty or with wealth,—of knowledge with external goods,—and at last choose with reference to the nature of the soul, regarding that only as the better life which makes men better, and leaving the rest. And a man must take with him an iron sense of truth and right into the world below, that there too he may remain undazzled by wealth or the allurements of evil, and be determined to avoid the extremes and choose the mean. For this, as the messenger reported the interpreter to have said, is the true happiness of man; and any one, as he proclaimed, may, if he choose with understanding, have a good lot, even though he come last. ‘Let not the first be careless in his choice, nor the last despair.’ He spoke; and when he had spoken, he who had drawn the first lot chose a tyranny: he did not see that he was fated to devour his own children—and when he discovered his mistake, he wept and beat his breast, blaming chance and the Gods and anybody rather than himself. He was one of those who had come from heaven, and in his previous life had been a citizen of a well-ordered State, but he had only habit and no philosophy. Like many another, he made a bad choice, because he had no experience of life; whereas those who came from earth and had seen trouble were not in such a hurry to choose. But if a man had followed philosophy while upon earth, and had been moderately fortunate in his lot, he might not only be happy here, but his pilgrimage both from and to this world would be smooth and heavenly. Nothing was more curious than the spectacle of the choice, at once sad and laughable and wonderful; most of the souls only seeking to avoid their own condition in a previous life. He saw the soul of Orpheus changing into a swan because he would not be born of a woman; there was Thamyras becoming a nightingale; musical birds, like the swan, choosing to be men; the twentieth soul, which was that of Ajax, preferring the life of a lion to that of a man, in remembrance of the injustice which was done to him in the judgment of the arms; and Agamemnon, from a like enmity to human nature, passing into an eagle. About the middle was the soul of Atalanta choosing the honours of an athlete, and next to her Epeus taking the nature of a workwoman; among the last was Thersites, who was changing himself into a monkey. Thither, the last of all, came Odysseus, and sought the lot of a private man, which lay neglected and despised, and when he found it he went away rejoicing, and said that if he had been first instead of last, his choice would have been the same. Men, too, were seen passing into animals, and wild and tame animals changing into one another.

On the eighth day, the souls of the pilgrims continued their journey, and after four days, they arrived at a place where they could see a bright, clear line of light, similar to a rainbow but more radiant. One more day brought them to this location, and they realized it was the column of light that connects the entire universe. The ends of the column reached up to heaven, and from it hung the distaff of Necessity, on which all the heavenly bodies rotated—the hook and spindle were made of adamant, and the whorl was composed of a mixed material. The whorl was shaped like a series of boxes fitting into one another, with their edges turned upwards, creating a single whorl pierced by the spindle. The outermost whorl was the widest, and the inner whorls progressively got smaller and narrower. The largest (the fixed stars) sparkled—the seventh (the sun) was the brightest—the eighth (the moon) glowed with the light of the seventh—the second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) resembled each other and were yellower than the eighth—the third (Jupiter) had the brightest light—the fourth (Mars) was red—and the sixth (Venus) was second in whiteness. They all moved together, but while this was rotating in one direction, the seven inner circles moved in the opposite direction, at various speeds. The spindle turned on Necessity’s knees, and a Siren sang on each circle, while Lachesis, Clotho, and Atropos, the daughters of Necessity, sat on thrones at equal intervals, singing about the past, present, and future, responding to the Sirens' music; Clotho occasionally guided the outer circle with her right hand; Atropos touched and guided the inner circles with her left; and Lachesis put forth her hand from time to time to guide both. Upon their arrival, the pilgrims approached Lachesis, and there was an interpreter who organized them. He took lots and samples of lives from her knees, climbed onto a pulpit, and said: ‘Mortal souls, listen to the words of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. A new phase of mortal life has begun, and you can choose any divinity you wish; the responsibility for your choice lies with you—God is not at fault.’ After saying this, he cast the lots among them, and each picked up the lot that fell near them. He then laid out before them the samples of lives, many more than the souls present; and there were all kinds of lives, of both humans and animals. There were tyrannies ending in misery and exile, and lives of notable men and women with various qualities; there were also mixed lives, composed of wealth and poverty, sickness and health. Here, Glaucon, is the significant risk of human existence, and so all education should focus on acquiring the knowledge that helps a person to reject the bad and choose the good. They should understand all the different combinations that life presents—of beauty with poverty or wealth, of knowledge with material goods—and ultimately choose based on the nature of the soul, considering that only the life that makes people better is worth pursuing, while leaving the rest behind. And a person must bring a strong sense of truth and righteousness into the world below, so that he can remain undazzled by wealth or the temptations of wrongdoing and resolve to avoid extremes while choosing the middle path. For this, as the messenger reported the interpreter said, is the true happiness of man; and anyone, he proclaimed, can receive a good lot, even if they come last. ‘Let not the first be careless in their choice, nor the last despair.’ He spoke; and after he spoke, the one who had drawn the first lot chose a tyranny: he did not see that he was destined to consume his own children—and when he realized his mistake, he wept and beat his chest, blaming chance and the gods and anyone but himself. He was one of those who had come from heaven, having been a citizen of a well-ordered State in his previous life, but he had only habit and no philosophy. Like many others, he made a poor choice because he lacked life experience; meanwhile, those who had come from earth and faced hardships were not in as much of a rush to decide. But if someone had followed philosophy while on earth and had been moderately fortunate in their lot, they might not only find happiness here but also have a smooth and heavenly journey both to and from this world. Nothing was more intriguing than the sight of the choices being made, which was both sad and amusing and marvelous; most of the souls were only trying to escape their previous conditions. He saw the soul of Orpheus transforming into a swan because he refused to be born of a woman; there was Thamyras becoming a nightingale; musical birds, like the swan, opting to become men; the twentieth soul, that of Ajax, preferring the life of a lion to that of a man, in memory of the injustice done to him in the judgment of the arms; and Agamemnon, out of a similar resentment towards human nature, turning into an eagle. Among them was the soul of Atalanta choosing the honors of an athlete, and next to her, Epeus taking on the role of a worker; among the last was Thersites, who was transforming into a monkey. Lastly, Odysseus arrived, seeking the neglected and despised lot of a private man, and when he found it, he left joyfully, claiming that if he had been first instead of last, his choice would have been the same. Men were also seen turning into animals, and wild and tame animals changing into one another.

When all the souls had chosen they went to Lachesis, who sent with each of them their genius or attendant to fulfil their lot. He first of all brought them under the hand of Clotho, and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand; from her they were carried to Atropos, who made the threads irreversible; whence, without turning round, they passed beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they moved on in scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness and rested at evening by the river Unmindful, whose water could not be retained in any vessel; of this they had all to drink a certain quantity—some of them drank more than was required, and he who drank forgot all things. Er himself was prevented from drinking. When they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there were thunderstorms and earthquakes, and suddenly they were all driven divers ways, shooting like stars to their birth. Concerning his return to the body, he only knew that awaking suddenly in the morning he found himself lying on the pyre.

When all the souls had made their choices, they went to Lachesis, who assigned each of them their genius or guide to fulfill their destiny. He first brought them to Clotho, who spun their threads on her spindle; from her, they were taken to Atropos, who made the threads impossible to change. Then, without looking back, they passed beneath the throne of Necessity. Once they all passed this point, they continued on in intense heat to the plain of Forgetfulness and rested in the evening by the river Unmindful, whose waters could not be held in any container. They all had to drink a certain amount from this river—some drank more than necessary, and whoever drank too much forgot everything. Er himself was stopped from drinking. After they had settled down for the night, around midnight there were thunderstorms and earthquakes, and suddenly they were all scattered in different directions, shooting like stars to their new lives. Regarding his return to the body, he only knew that when he woke up suddenly in the morning, he found himself lying on the pyre.

Thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved, and will be our salvation, if we believe that the soul is immortal, and hold fast to the heavenly way of Justice and Knowledge. So shall we pass undefiled over the river of Forgetfulness, and be dear to ourselves and to the Gods, and have a crown of reward and happiness both in this world and also in the millennial pilgrimage of the other.

Thus, Glaucon, the story has been preserved and will be our salvation if we believe that the soul is immortal, and stay committed to the divine path of Justice and Knowledge. This way, we will cross the river of Forgetfulness untainted, be dear to ourselves and to the Gods, and receive a crown of reward and happiness both in this life and in the journey of the next.

The Tenth Book of the Republic of Plato falls into two divisions: first, resuming an old thread which has been interrupted, Socrates assails the poets, who, now that the nature of the soul has been analyzed, are seen to be very far gone from the truth; and secondly, having shown the reality of the happiness of the just, he demands that appearance shall be restored to him, and then proceeds to prove the immortality of the soul. The argument, as in the Phaedo and Gorgias, is supplemented by the vision of a future life.

The Tenth Book of Plato's Republic is divided into two parts: first, picking up an earlier discussion, Socrates takes aim at the poets, who, now that we've examined the nature of the soul, are revealed to be quite far from the truth; and second, after demonstrating the true happiness of the just, he asks for appearance to be returned to him, then goes on to argue for the immortality of the soul. As in the Phaedo and Gorgias, the argument is accompanied by a vision of an afterlife.

Why Plato, who was himself a poet, and whose dialogues are poems and dramas, should have been hostile to the poets as a class, and especially to the dramatic poets; why he should not have seen that truth may be embodied in verse as well as in prose, and that there are some indefinable lights and shadows of human life which can only be expressed in poetry—some elements of imagination which always entwine with reason; why he should have supposed epic verse to be inseparably associated with the impurities of the old Hellenic mythology; why he should try Homer and Hesiod by the unfair and prosaic test of utility,—are questions which have always been debated amongst students of Plato. Though unable to give a complete answer to them, we may show—first, that his views arose naturally out of the circumstances of his age; and secondly, we may elicit the truth as well as the error which is contained in them.

Why did Plato, who was a poet himself and whose dialogues are poems and dramas, have a negative view of poets as a whole, especially dramatic poets? Why didn’t he recognize that truth can be expressed in verse just as much as in prose, and that there are aspects of human life that can only be captured through poetry—elements of imagination that always blend with reason? Why did he believe epic verse was inextricably linked to the flaws of old Hellenic mythology? Why did he evaluate Homer and Hesiod using the unfair and prosaic standard of utility? These are questions that have long been discussed among Plato scholars. While we might not have complete answers, we can show—first, that his views naturally arose from the circumstances of his time; and second, that there are truths as well as errors in his perspectives.

He is the enemy of the poets because poetry was declining in his own lifetime, and a theatrocracy, as he says in the Laws, had taken the place of an intellectual aristocracy. Euripides exhibited the last phase of the tragic drama, and in him Plato saw the friend and apologist of tyrants, and the Sophist of tragedy. The old comedy was almost extinct; the new had not yet arisen. Dramatic and lyric poetry, like every other branch of Greek literature, was falling under the power of rhetoric. There was no ‘second or third’ to Aeschylus and Sophocles in the generation which followed them. Aristophanes, in one of his later comedies (Frogs), speaks of ‘thousands of tragedy-making prattlers,’ whose attempts at poetry he compares to the chirping of swallows; ‘their garrulity went far beyond Euripides,’—‘they appeared once upon the stage, and there was an end of them.’ To a man of genius who had a real appreciation of the godlike Aeschylus and the noble and gentle Sophocles, though disagreeing with some parts of their ‘theology’ (Rep.), these ‘minor poets’ must have been contemptible and intolerable. There is no feeling stronger in the dialogues of Plato than a sense of the decline and decay both in literature and in politics which marked his own age. Nor can he have been expected to look with favour on the licence of Aristophanes, now at the end of his career, who had begun by satirizing Socrates in the Clouds, and in a similar spirit forty years afterwards had satirized the founders of ideal commonwealths in his Eccleziazusae, or Female Parliament (Laws).

He is the enemy of poets because poetry was fading during his own time, and a theater-based system, as he mentions in the Laws, had replaced an intellectual elite. Euripides represented the final phase of tragic drama, and Plato viewed him as a supporter and defender of tyrants, as well as a Sophist in tragedy. Old comedy was nearly gone; the new one hadn't yet emerged. Dramatic and lyric poetry, like all other aspects of Greek literature, was succumbing to the influence of rhetoric. There was no 'second or third' to Aeschylus and Sophocles in the generation that came after them. Aristophanes, in one of his later comedies (Frogs), refers to 'thousands of tragedy-making chatterboxes,' whose attempts at poetry he likens to the chirping of swallows; 'their endless talk surpassed even Euripides'—'they appeared on stage once, and that was it.' For a person of genius who truly appreciated the divine Aeschylus and the noble and gentle Sophocles, despite disagreeing with some aspects of their 'theology' (Rep.), these 'minor poets' must have seemed both contemptible and unbearable. There is no feeling stronger in the dialogues of Plato than a sense of decline and decay in both literature and politics that characterized his era. Nor could he have been expected to view favorably the excesses of Aristophanes, who, near the end of his career, had begun by satirizing Socrates in the Clouds and, in a similar spirit, forty years later, had satirized the founders of ideal societies in his Eccleziazusae, or Female Parliament (Laws).

There were other reasons for the antagonism of Plato to poetry. The profession of an actor was regarded by him as a degradation of human nature, for ‘one man in his life’ cannot ‘play many parts;’ the characters which the actor performs seem to destroy his own character, and to leave nothing which can be truly called himself. Neither can any man live his life and act it. The actor is the slave of his art, not the master of it. Taking this view Plato is more decided in his expulsion of the dramatic than of the epic poets, though he must have known that the Greek tragedians afforded noble lessons and examples of virtue and patriotism, to which nothing in Homer can be compared. But great dramatic or even great rhetorical power is hardly consistent with firmness or strength of mind, and dramatic talent is often incidentally associated with a weak or dissolute character.

There were other reasons for Plato's dislike of poetry. He viewed acting as a degradation of human nature because "one person in their life" cannot "play many parts;" the roles an actor portrays seem to undermine their own identity, leaving nothing that can truly be called themselves. A person cannot live and act their life at the same time. The actor is a slave to their craft, not its master. With this perspective, Plato is more adamant about banning dramatic poets than epic poets, even though he must have known that Greek tragedians provided noble lessons and examples of virtue and patriotism, which nothing in Homer can match. However, great dramatic or even rhetorical talent rarely aligns with strong mental fortitude, and dramatic skill is often linked to a weak or immoral character.

In the Tenth Book Plato introduces a new series of objections. First, he says that the poet or painter is an imitator, and in the third degree removed from the truth. His creations are not tested by rule and measure; they are only appearances. In modern times we should say that art is not merely imitation, but rather the expression of the ideal in forms of sense. Even adopting the humble image of Plato, from which his argument derives a colour, we should maintain that the artist may ennoble the bed which he paints by the folds of the drapery, or by the feeling of home which he introduces; and there have been modern painters who have imparted such an ideal interest to a blacksmith’s or a carpenter’s shop. The eye or mind which feels as well as sees can give dignity and pathos to a ruined mill, or a straw-built shed (Rembrandt), to the hull of a vessel ‘going to its last home’ (Turner). Still more would this apply to the greatest works of art, which seem to be the visible embodiment of the divine. Had Plato been asked whether the Zeus or Athene of Pheidias was the imitation of an imitation only, would he not have been compelled to admit that something more was to be found in them than in the form of any mortal; and that the rule of proportion to which they conformed was ‘higher far than any geometry or arithmetic could express?’ (Statesman.)

In the Tenth Book, Plato introduces a new set of objections. First, he claims that the poet or painter is an imitator and is three steps removed from the truth. His creations aren't measured by rules or standards; they are just appearances. In modern terms, we could say that art is not just imitation but the expression of the ideal through sensory forms. Even using Plato's humble image, from which his argument takes its coloring, we should argue that an artist can elevate the bed they paint by the folds of the drapery or the sense of home they convey; there have been modern painters who have given such an ideal quality to a blacksmith’s or carpenter’s workshop. The eye or mind that feels as well as sees can add dignity and emotion to a ruined mill or a straw-built shed (like Rembrandt), or to the hull of a ship ‘heading to its final resting place’ (like Turner). This idea is even more applicable to the greatest works of art, which seem to be the visible representation of the divine. If Plato were asked whether the Zeus or Athena of Pheidias was simply an imitation of an imitation, wouldn't he have to admit that there’s something more in them than in any human form, and that the proportions they adhere to are ‘far beyond anything that geometry or arithmetic could express?’ (Statesman.)

Again, Plato objects to the imitative arts that they express the emotional rather than the rational part of human nature. He does not admit Aristotle’s theory, that tragedy or other serious imitations are a purgation of the passions by pity and fear; to him they appear only to afford the opportunity of indulging them. Yet we must acknowledge that we may sometimes cure disordered emotions by giving expression to them; and that they often gain strength when pent up within our own breast. It is not every indulgence of the feelings which is to be condemned. For there may be a gratification of the higher as well as of the lower—thoughts which are too deep or too sad to be expressed by ourselves, may find an utterance in the words of poets. Every one would acknowledge that there have been times when they were consoled and elevated by beautiful music or by the sublimity of architecture or by the peacefulness of nature. Plato has himself admitted, in the earlier part of the Republic, that the arts might have the effect of harmonizing as well as of enervating the mind; but in the Tenth Book he regards them through a Stoic or Puritan medium. He asks only ‘What good have they done?’ and is not satisfied with the reply, that ‘They have given innocent pleasure to mankind.’

Plato again argues against the imitative arts, claiming they focus on emotions rather than rationality. He dismisses Aristotle’s idea that tragedy and serious imitations purify feelings through pity and fear, believing they simply offer a chance to indulge those feelings. However, we must recognize that expressing our troubled emotions can sometimes help us heal; keeping them bottled up often makes them stronger. Not all expressions of feelings should be criticized. There can be a fulfillment of both higher and lower emotions—thoughts that are too profound or too sorrowful for us to articulate might find a voice in poetry. Everyone can relate to moments when they felt comforted and uplifted by beautiful music, striking architecture, or the tranquility of nature. Plato himself acknowledged earlier in the Republic that the arts can harmonize the mind as well as weaken it; but in the Tenth Book, he views them through a Stoic or Puritan lens. He only asks, “What good have they done?” and is not satisfied with the answer, “They have provided innocent pleasure to humanity.”

He tells us that he rejoices in the banishment of the poets, since he has found by the analysis of the soul that they are concerned with the inferior faculties. He means to say that the higher faculties have to do with universals, the lower with particulars of sense. The poets are on a level with their own age, but not on a level with Socrates and Plato; and he was well aware that Homer and Hesiod could not be made a rule of life by any process of legitimate interpretation; his ironical use of them is in fact a denial of their authority; he saw, too, that the poets were not critics—as he says in the Apology, ‘Any one was a better interpreter of their writings than they were themselves. He himself ceased to be a poet when he became a disciple of Socrates; though, as he tells us of Solon, ‘he might have been one of the greatest of them, if he had not been deterred by other pursuits’ (Tim.) Thus from many points of view there is an antagonism between Plato and the poets, which was foreshadowed to him in the old quarrel between philosophy and poetry. The poets, as he says in the Protagoras, were the Sophists of their day; and his dislike of the one class is reflected on the other. He regards them both as the enemies of reasoning and abstraction, though in the case of Euripides more with reference to his immoral sentiments about tyrants and the like. For Plato is the prophet who ‘came into the world to convince men’—first of the fallibility of sense and opinion, and secondly of the reality of abstract ideas. Whatever strangeness there may be in modern times in opposing philosophy to poetry, which to us seem to have so many elements in common, the strangeness will disappear if we conceive of poetry as allied to sense, and of philosophy as equivalent to thought and abstraction. Unfortunately the very word ‘idea,’ which to Plato is expressive of the most real of all things, is associated in our minds with an element of subjectiveness and unreality. We may note also how he differs from Aristotle who declares poetry to be truer than history, for the opposite reason, because it is concerned with universals, not like history, with particulars (Poet).

He tells us that he takes pleasure in the banishment of poets, as he has determined through analyzing the soul that they focus on lower faculties. He means that the higher faculties deal with universal concepts, while the lower faculties relate to sensory particulars. The poets reflect their own time but aren’t on the same level as Socrates and Plato. He understood that Homer and Hesiod couldn’t serve as a guide for life through any proper interpretation; his sarcastic use of them actually denies their authority. He also recognized that poets weren’t critics—as he mentions in the Apology, “Anyone was a better interpreter of their works than they were.” He stopped being a poet when he became a follower of Socrates; although, as he notes about Solon, “he might have been one of the greatest if he hadn't been distracted by other pursuits” (Tim.). Thus, from several angles, there’s a conflict between Plato and the poets, which was hinted at in the long-standing dispute between philosophy and poetry. The poets, as he points out in the Protagoras, were the Sophists of their era; his disdain for one group extends to the other. He sees them both as opponents of reasoning and abstract thought, though in the case of Euripides, it’s largely due to his immoral views on tyrants and similar topics. Plato is the messenger who “came into the world to convince people”—first of the unpredictability of sensory experiences and opinions, and second of the existence of abstract ideas. While it may seem odd today to pit philosophy against poetry, which we view as sharing many similarities, this oddity fades if we think of poetry as linked to the senses and philosophy as tied to thought and abstraction. Unfortunately, the term “idea,” which for Plato represents the most real of all things, carries connotations of subjectivity and unreality in our minds. We can also note how he differs from Aristotle, who claims that poetry is truer than history for the opposite reason, because it focuses on universals while history deals with particulars (Poet).

The things which are seen are opposed in Scripture to the things which are unseen—they are equally opposed in Plato to universals and ideas. To him all particulars appear to be floating about in a world of sense; they have a taint of error or even of evil. There is no difficulty in seeing that this is an illusion; for there is no more error or variation in an individual man, horse, bed, etc., than in the class man, horse, bed, etc.; nor is the truth which is displayed in individual instances less certain than that which is conveyed through the medium of ideas. But Plato, who is deeply impressed with the real importance of universals as instruments of thought, attributes to them an essential truth which is imaginary and unreal; for universals may be often false and particulars true. Had he attained to any clear conception of the individual, which is the synthesis of the universal and the particular; or had he been able to distinguish between opinion and sensation, which the ambiguity of the words (Greek) and the like, tended to confuse, he would not have denied truth to the particulars of sense.

The things we can see are contrasted in Scripture with the things we can't see—they're also contrasted in Plato with universals and ideas. To him, all specifics seem to float around in a sensory world; they carry a hint of error or even evil. It's not hard to see that this is an illusion; there's no more error or difference in an individual person, horse, bed, etc., than in the category of person, horse, bed, etc.; nor is the truth shown in individual cases any less certain than the truth conveyed through ideas. However, Plato, who is very aware of the real significance of universals as tools for thinking, attributes an essential truth to them that is imaginary and unreal; universals can often be false while particulars can be true. If he had reached a clear understanding of the individual, which is the combination of the universal and the particular; or if he had been able to differentiate between opinion and sensation, which the ambiguity of the Greek words tended to mix up, he wouldn't have denied truth to the particulars we sense.

But the poets are also the representatives of falsehood and feigning in all departments of life and knowledge, like the sophists and rhetoricians of the Gorgias and Phaedrus; they are the false priests, false prophets, lying spirits, enchanters of the world. There is another count put into the indictment against them by Plato, that they are the friends of the tyrant, and bask in the sunshine of his patronage. Despotism in all ages has had an apparatus of false ideas and false teachers at its service—in the history of Modern Europe as well as of Greece and Rome. For no government of men depends solely upon force; without some corruption of literature and morals—some appeal to the imagination of the masses—some pretence to the favour of heaven—some element of good giving power to evil, tyranny, even for a short time, cannot be maintained. The Greek tyrants were not insensible to the importance of awakening in their cause a Pseudo-Hellenic feeling; they were proud of successes at the Olympic games; they were not devoid of the love of literature and art. Plato is thinking in the first instance of Greek poets who had graced the courts of Dionysius or Archelaus: and the old spirit of freedom is roused within him at their prostitution of the Tragic Muse in the praises of tyranny. But his prophetic eye extends beyond them to the false teachers of other ages who are the creatures of the government under which they live. He compares the corruption of his contemporaries with the idea of a perfect society, and gathers up into one mass of evil the evils and errors of mankind; to him they are personified in the rhetoricians, sophists, poets, rulers who deceive and govern the world.

But poets also represent deception and pretentiousness in every area of life and knowledge, like the sophists and rhetoricians in the Gorgias and Phaedrus; they are the fake priests, false prophets, deceitful spirits, and illusionists of the world. Plato adds another accusation against them: they are allies of the tyrant, thriving under his support. Throughout history, despotism has relied on a network of false ideas and fake teachers—this applies to both Modern Europe and ancient Greece and Rome. No government depends purely on force; without some distortion of literature and morals—some appeal to the imagination of the masses—some facade of divine favor—some aspect of goodness that empowers evil, tyranny cannot survive, even for a little while. The Greek tyrants recognized the need to foster a Pseudo-Hellenic sentiment for their cause; they took pride in victories at the Olympic games and appreciated literature and art. Plato initially focuses on Greek poets who flattered the courts of Dionysius or Archelaus; the old spirit of freedom stirs within him at their betrayal of the Tragic Muse to praise tyranny. But his prophetic vision looks beyond them to the false teachers from other eras who are the products of the governments they serve. He juxtaposes the corruption of his contemporaries with the concept of a perfect society and conglomerates the evils and errors of humanity into a single mass of wrongdoing; for him, they are embodied in the rhetoricians, sophists, poets, and rulers who mislead and control the world.

A further objection which Plato makes to poetry and the imitative arts is that they excite the emotions. Here the modern reader will be disposed to introduce a distinction which appears to have escaped him. For the emotions are neither bad nor good in themselves, and are not most likely to be controlled by the attempt to eradicate them, but by the moderate indulgence of them. And the vocation of art is to present thought in the form of feeling, to enlist the feelings on the side of reason, to inspire even for a moment courage or resignation; perhaps to suggest a sense of infinity and eternity in a way which mere language is incapable of attaining. True, the same power which in the purer age of art embodies gods and heroes only, may be made to express the voluptuous image of a Corinthian courtezan. But this only shows that art, like other outward things, may be turned to good and also to evil, and is not more closely connected with the higher than with the lower part of the soul. All imitative art is subject to certain limitations, and therefore necessarily partakes of the nature of a compromise. Something of ideal truth is sacrificed for the sake of the representation, and something in the exactness of the representation is sacrificed to the ideal. Still, works of art have a permanent element; they idealize and detain the passing thought, and are the intermediates between sense and ideas.

Another objection that Plato has against poetry and the imitative arts is that they stir up emotions. Here, the modern reader might want to make a distinction that Plato seems to have missed. Emotions aren’t inherently bad or good, and they’re not best controlled by trying to eliminate them, but rather by allowing them to be experienced in moderation. The purpose of art is to convey ideas through feelings, to align emotions with reason, to inspire moments of courage or acceptance; perhaps to evoke a sense of infinity and eternity that plain language can’t achieve. While it’s true that the same artistic power that once depicted only gods and heroes can now also portray the seductive image of a Corinthian courtesan, this merely shows that art, like other external things, can be used for both good and evil, and doesn't inherently connect more with the higher or lower aspects of the soul. All imitative art has its limitations, making it a compromise by nature. Some ideal truth is sacrificed for the sake of depiction, and some accuracy in representation is given up for the ideal. Nevertheless, works of art possess a lasting quality; they elevate and capture fleeting thoughts, serving as intermediaries between sensory experience and ideas.

In the present stage of the human mind, poetry and other forms of fiction may certainly be regarded as a good. But we can also imagine the existence of an age in which a severer conception of truth has either banished or transformed them. At any rate we must admit that they hold a different place at different periods of the world’s history. In the infancy of mankind, poetry, with the exception of proverbs, is the whole of literature, and the only instrument of intellectual culture; in modern times she is the shadow or echo of her former self, and appears to have a precarious existence. Milton in his day doubted whether an epic poem was any longer possible. At the same time we must remember, that what Plato would have called the charms of poetry have been partly transferred to prose; he himself (Statesman) admits rhetoric to be the handmaiden of Politics, and proposes to find in the strain of law (Laws) a substitute for the old poets. Among ourselves the creative power seems often to be growing weaker, and scientific fact to be more engrossing and overpowering to the mind than formerly. The illusion of the feelings commonly called love, has hitherto been the inspiring influence of modern poetry and romance, and has exercised a humanizing if not a strengthening influence on the world. But may not the stimulus which love has given to fancy be some day exhausted? The modern English novel which is the most popular of all forms of reading is not more than a century or two old: will the tale of love a hundred years hence, after so many thousand variations of the same theme, be still received with unabated interest?

In today's world, poetry and other forms of fiction can definitely be seen as valuable. However, we can also picture a future where a stricter understanding of truth has either eliminated or changed them. Regardless, we must recognize that they occupy different roles at different times in history. In the early days of humanity, poetry, aside from proverbs, represented the entirety of literature and the main tool for intellectual development; in modern times, it is more like a shadow or echo of its former self and seems to exist in a fragile state. Milton, during his time, questioned whether an epic poem was still achievable. At the same time, we should remember that what Plato would have referred to as the allure of poetry has partially shifted to prose; he acknowledges (in Statesman) that rhetoric serves as the assistant to Politics and suggests that the essence of law (in Laws) might replace the ancient poets. Nowadays, the ability to create seems to be diminishing, and scientific facts appear to capture our attention and dominate our thoughts more than before. The feeling commonly known as love has, until now, inspired much of modern poetry and romance, creating a humanizing if not empowering influence on the world. But could the excitement that love brings to imagination eventually run out? The contemporary English novel, which is the most popular form of reading today, is only a century or two old: will stories about love a hundred years from now, after countless variations of the same theme, still be met with the same enthusiasm?

Art cannot claim to be on a level with philosophy or religion, and may often corrupt them. It is possible to conceive a mental state in which all artistic representations are regarded as a false and imperfect expression, either of the religious ideal or of the philosophical ideal. The fairest forms may be revolting in certain moods of mind, as is proved by the fact that the Mahometans, and many sects of Christians, have renounced the use of pictures and images. The beginning of a great religion, whether Christian or Gentile, has not been ‘wood or stone,’ but a spirit moving in the hearts of men. The disciples have met in a large upper room or in ‘holes and caves of the earth’; in the second or third generation, they have had mosques, temples, churches, monasteries. And the revival or reform of religions, like the first revelation of them, has come from within and has generally disregarded external ceremonies and accompaniments.

Art cannot claim to stand on the same level as philosophy or religion, and it can often corrupt them. It's possible to imagine a mindset where all artistic representations are seen as a false and imperfect expression of either the religious ideal or the philosophical ideal. The most beautiful forms can be off-putting in certain moods, as seen by the fact that Muslims and many Christian sects have given up the use of pictures and images. The start of a great religion, whether Christian or pagan, has not been "wood or stone," but a spirit moving in the hearts of people. The followers have gathered in a large upper room or in "holes and caves of the earth"; by the second or third generation, they have established mosques, temples, churches, and monasteries. The revival or reform of religions, just like their first revelation, has come from within and has usually overlooked external ceremonies and rituals.

But poetry and art may also be the expression of the highest truth and the purest sentiment. Plato himself seems to waver between two opposite views—when, as in the third Book, he insists that youth should be brought up amid wholesome imagery; and again in Book X, when he banishes the poets from his Republic. Admitting that the arts, which some of us almost deify, have fallen short of their higher aim, we must admit on the other hand that to banish imagination wholly would be suicidal as well as impossible. For nature too is a form of art; and a breath of the fresh air or a single glance at the varying landscape would in an instant revive and reillumine the extinguished spark of poetry in the human breast. In the lower stages of civilization imagination more than reason distinguishes man from the animals; and to banish art would be to banish thought, to banish language, to banish the expression of all truth. No religion is wholly devoid of external forms; even the Mahometan who renounces the use of pictures and images has a temple in which he worships the Most High, as solemn and beautiful as any Greek or Christian building. Feeling too and thought are not really opposed; for he who thinks must feel before he can execute. And the highest thoughts, when they become familiarized to us, are always tending to pass into the form of feeling.

But poetry and art can also express the highest truths and the purest feelings. Plato himself seems to go back and forth between two opposing views—when, as mentioned in Book III, he argues that young people should grow up surrounded by positive imagery; and again in Book X, when he expels poets from his Republic. While we acknowledge that the arts, which some of us almost idolize, have not reached their full potential, we must also recognize that completely rejecting imagination would be both harmful and impossible. Nature is a form of art too; a breath of fresh air or a single glance at a changing landscape can instantly revive and reignite the lost spark of poetry in our hearts. In earlier stages of civilization, imagination, more than reason, sets humans apart from animals; to get rid of art would mean eliminating thought, language, and the expression of all truth. No religion is entirely without external forms; even a Muslim who rejects pictures and images has a temple in which to worship the Most High, just as solemn and beautiful as any Greek or Christian structure. Feelings and thoughts are not truly opposed; anyone who thinks must feel before they can create. And the highest thoughts, once they become familiar to us, tend to transform into feelings.

Plato does not seriously intend to expel poets from life and society. But he feels strongly the unreality of their writings; he is protesting against the degeneracy of poetry in his own day as we might protest against the want of serious purpose in modern fiction, against the unseemliness or extravagance of some of our poets or novelists, against the time-serving of preachers or public writers, against the regardlessness of truth which to the eye of the philosopher seems to characterize the greater part of the world. For we too have reason to complain that our poets and novelists ‘paint inferior truth’ and ‘are concerned with the inferior part of the soul’; that the readers of them become what they read and are injuriously affected by them. And we look in vain for that healthy atmosphere of which Plato speaks,—‘the beauty which meets the sense like a breeze and imperceptibly draws the soul, even in childhood, into harmony with the beauty of reason.’

Plato doesn’t actually want to kick poets out of life and society. However, he strongly believes their writings lack authenticity; he’s expressing his frustration with the decline of poetry in his time, similar to how we might complain about the lack of seriousness in modern fiction, the inappropriateness or excess of some of our poets or novelists, the opportunism of preachers or public writers, and the disregard for truth that seems to define much of the world from a philosopher's perspective. We too have valid concerns that our poets and novelists "present inferior truths" and "focused on the lower aspects of the soul"; that their readers become like what they read and are negatively impacted by it. And we search in vain for that healthy environment Plato describes—"the beauty that greets the senses like a breeze and subtly guides the soul, even in childhood, into alignment with the beauty of reason."

For there might be a poetry which would be the hymn of divine perfection, the harmony of goodness and truth among men: a strain which should renew the youth of the world, and bring back the ages in which the poet was man’s only teacher and best friend,—which would find materials in the living present as well as in the romance of the past, and might subdue to the fairest forms of speech and verse the intractable materials of modern civilisation,—which might elicit the simple principles, or, as Plato would have called them, the essential forms, of truth and justice out of the variety of opinion and the complexity of modern society,—which would preserve all the good of each generation and leave the bad unsung,—which should be based not on vain longings or faint imaginings, but on a clear insight into the nature of man. Then the tale of love might begin again in poetry or prose, two in one, united in the pursuit of knowledge, or the service of God and man; and feelings of love might still be the incentive to great thoughts and heroic deeds as in the days of Dante or Petrarch; and many types of manly and womanly beauty might appear among us, rising above the ordinary level of humanity, and many lives which were like poems (Laws), be not only written, but lived by us. A few such strains have been heard among men in the tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles, whom Plato quotes, not, as Homer is quoted by him, in irony, but with deep and serious approval,—in the poetry of Milton and Wordsworth, and in passages of other English poets,—first and above all in the Hebrew prophets and psalmists. Shakespeare has taught us how great men should speak and act; he has drawn characters of a wonderful purity and depth; he has ennobled the human mind, but, like Homer (Rep.), he ‘has left no way of life.’ The next greatest poet of modern times, Goethe, is concerned with ‘a lower degree of truth’; he paints the world as a stage on which ‘all the men and women are merely players’; he cultivates life as an art, but he furnishes no ideals of truth and action. The poet may rebel against any attempt to set limits to his fancy; and he may argue truly that moralizing in verse is not poetry. Possibly, like Mephistopheles in Faust, he may retaliate on his adversaries. But the philosopher will still be justified in asking, ‘How may the heavenly gift of poesy be devoted to the good of mankind?’

For there might be a poetry that serves as a song of divine perfection, a blend of goodness and truth among people: a melody that could revitalize the world and restore the times when the poet was humanity’s sole teacher and best friend. This poetry would draw from both the vibrant present and the stories of the past, transforming the challenging elements of modern civilization into beautiful language and verse. It could reveal the fundamental principles, or what Plato called the essential forms, of truth and justice amidst the variety of opinions and the complexities of contemporary society. It would preserve the good from each generation while leaving the bad unmentioned, grounded not in empty hopes or distant fantasies but in a clear understanding of human nature. Then, the story of love could start anew in poetry or prose, intertwined in the quest for knowledge or in the service of God and humanity; feelings of love could still inspire great thoughts and courageous actions just as in the eras of Dante or Petrarch. Many forms of noble beauty could emerge around us, rising above the ordinary, and many lives that resemble poems (Laws) could not only be written but lived by us. A few such expressions have been felt among men in the tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles, whom Plato quotes with deep sincerity and respect, rather than with irony as he does with Homer. This can also be seen in the poetry of Milton and Wordsworth, and in lines from other English poets, particularly in the Hebrew prophets and psalmists. Shakespeare has shown us how great individuals should speak and act; he has created characters of remarkable purity and depth, uplifting the human mind, but, like Homer, he 'has left no way of life.' The next most important poet of modern times, Goethe, focuses on 'a lower degree of truth'; he illustrates the world as a stage where 'all the men and women are merely players.' He treats life as an art but offers no ideals of truth and action. The poet might resist any attempts to limit his imagination and might rightly argue that moralizing in verse isn’t true poetry. Perhaps, like Mephistopheles in Faust, he might strike back at his critics. But the philosopher will still be right to ask, 'How can the divine gift of poetry be used for the benefit of humanity?'

Returning to Plato, we may observe that a similar mixture of truth and error appears in other parts of the argument. He is aware of the absurdity of mankind framing their whole lives according to Homer; just as in the Phaedrus he intimates the absurdity of interpreting mythology upon rational principles; both these were the modern tendencies of his own age, which he deservedly ridicules. On the other hand, his argument that Homer, if he had been able to teach mankind anything worth knowing, would not have been allowed by them to go about begging as a rhapsodist, is both false and contrary to the spirit of Plato (Rep.). It may be compared with those other paradoxes of the Gorgias, that ‘No statesman was ever unjustly put to death by the city of which he was the head’; and that ‘No Sophist was ever defrauded by his pupils’ (Gorg.)...

Returning to Plato, we can see that a similar mix of truth and error shows up in other parts of his argument. He recognizes the absurdity of people building their entire lives based on Homer; just like in the Phaedrus, he hints at the ridiculousness of interpreting mythology using rational principles. Both of these were modern tendencies of his time, which he rightfully mocks. On the flip side, his point that Homer, if he had anything valuable to teach humanity, wouldn’t have had to go around begging as a rhapsodist is both incorrect and contrary to Plato's spirit (Rep.). It can be compared to those other paradoxes from the Gorgias, like ‘No statesman was ever unjustly executed by the city he led’; and ‘No Sophist was ever cheated by his students’ (Gorg.)...

The argument for immortality seems to rest on the absolute dualism of soul and body. Admitting the existence of the soul, we know of no force which is able to put an end to her. Vice is her own proper evil; and if she cannot be destroyed by that, she cannot be destroyed by any other. Yet Plato has acknowledged that the soul may be so overgrown by the incrustations of earth as to lose her original form; and in the Timaeus he recognizes more strongly than in the Republic the influence which the body has over the mind, denying even the voluntariness of human actions, on the ground that they proceed from physical states (Tim.). In the Republic, as elsewhere, he wavers between the original soul which has to be restored, and the character which is developed by training and education...

The argument for immortality seems to depend on a strict separation of the soul and body. Recognizing the existence of the soul, we find no force that can end it. Sin is its own unique evil; if it can't be destroyed by that, it can't be destroyed by anything else. However, Plato acknowledged that the soul can become so burdened by earthly influences that it loses its original form; in the Timaeus, he emphasizes even more than in the Republic the impact the body has on the mind, even suggesting that human actions aren't entirely voluntary since they arise from physical conditions (Tim.). In the Republic, as in other works, he fluctuates between the idea of the original soul that needs to be restored and the character shaped by training and education...

The vision of another world is ascribed to Er, the son of Armenius, who is said by Clement of Alexandria to have been Zoroaster. The tale has certainly an oriental character, and may be compared with the pilgrimages of the soul in the Zend Avesta (Haug, Avesta). But no trace of acquaintance with Zoroaster is found elsewhere in Plato’s writings, and there is no reason for giving him the name of Er the Pamphylian. The philosophy of Heracleitus cannot be shown to be borrowed from Zoroaster, and still less the myths of Plato.

The vision of another world is attributed to Er, the son of Armenius, who Clement of Alexandria claims was Zoroaster. The story definitely has an Eastern vibe and can be compared to the soul's journeys in the Zend Avesta (Haug, Avesta). However, there is no evidence of familiarity with Zoroaster in any other writings of Plato, and there is no reason to refer to him as Er the Pamphylian. Heracleitus's philosophy cannot be shown to have been borrowed from Zoroaster, and even less so Plato's myths.

The local arrangement of the vision is less distinct than that of the Phaedrus and Phaedo. Astronomy is mingled with symbolism and mythology; the great sphere of heaven is represented under the symbol of a cylinder or box, containing the seven orbits of the planets and the fixed stars; this is suspended from an axis or spindle which turns on the knees of Necessity; the revolutions of the seven orbits contained in the cylinder are guided by the fates, and their harmonious motion produces the music of the spheres. Through the innermost or eighth of these, which is the moon, is passed the spindle; but it is doubtful whether this is the continuation of the column of light, from which the pilgrims contemplate the heavens; the words of Plato imply that they are connected, but not the same. The column itself is clearly not of adamant. The spindle (which is of adamant) is fastened to the ends of the chains which extend to the middle of the column of light—this column is said to hold together the heaven; but whether it hangs from the spindle, or is at right angles to it, is not explained. The cylinder containing the orbits of the stars is almost as much a symbol as the figure of Necessity turning the spindle;—for the outermost rim is the sphere of the fixed stars, and nothing is said about the intervals of space which divide the paths of the stars in the heavens. The description is both a picture and an orrery, and therefore is necessarily inconsistent with itself. The column of light is not the Milky Way—which is neither straight, nor like a rainbow—but the imaginary axis of the earth. This is compared to the rainbow in respect not of form but of colour, and not to the undergirders of a trireme, but to the straight rope running from prow to stern in which the undergirders meet.

The local arrangement of vision is less clear than in the Phaedrus and Phaedo. Astronomy mixes with symbolism and mythology; the vast sphere of the heavens is depicted as a cylinder or box that holds the seven orbits of the planets and the fixed stars. This is suspended from an axis or spindle that turns on the knees of Necessity. The movements of the seven orbits inside the cylinder are directed by fate, and their harmonious motion creates the music of the spheres. The spindle passes through the innermost or eighth of these orbits, which is the moon, but it’s unclear if this is a continuation of the column of light from which the pilgrims gaze at the heavens; Plato's words suggest they are linked but not identical. The column itself is clearly not made of adamant. The spindle (which is made of adamant) is attached to the ends of chains that extend to the center of the column of light—this column is said to hold the heavens together; however, it isn't explained whether it hangs from the spindle or is perpendicular to it. The cylinder holding the star orbits is nearly as much a symbol as the image of Necessity turning the spindle, since the outermost edge represents the sphere of the fixed stars, and nothing is mentioned about the spaces that separate the paths of stars in the sky. The description serves both as a picture and an orrery, making it inevitably inconsistent. The column of light isn't the Milky Way—which is neither straight nor rainbow-like—but the imaginary axis of the earth. This is compared to a rainbow not in shape but in color, and not to the supports of a trireme, but to the straight rope running from the front to the back where the supports connect.

The orrery or picture of the heavens given in the Republic differs in its mode of representation from the circles of the same and of the other in the Timaeus. In both the fixed stars are distinguished from the planets, and they move in orbits without them, although in an opposite direction: in the Republic as in the Timaeus they are all moving round the axis of the world. But we are not certain that in the former they are moving round the earth. No distinct mention is made in the Republic of the circles of the same and other; although both in the Timaeus and in the Republic the motion of the fixed stars is supposed to coincide with the motion of the whole. The relative thickness of the rims is perhaps designed to express the relative distances of the planets. Plato probably intended to represent the earth, from which Er and his companions are viewing the heavens, as stationary in place; but whether or not herself revolving, unless this is implied in the revolution of the axis, is uncertain (Timaeus). The spectator may be supposed to look at the heavenly bodies, either from above or below. The earth is a sort of earth and heaven in one, like the heaven of the Phaedrus, on the back of which the spectator goes out to take a peep at the stars and is borne round in the revolution. There is no distinction between the equator and the ecliptic. But Plato is no doubt led to imagine that the planets have an opposite motion to that of the fixed stars, in order to account for their appearances in the heavens. In the description of the meadow, and the retribution of the good and evil after death, there are traces of Homer.

The orrery or depiction of the heavens in the Republic is represented differently compared to the circles in the Timaeus. In both, the fixed stars are separated from the planets, and they move in their own orbits, although in opposite directions: in the Republic, just like in the Timaeus, they all revolve around the world's axis. However, it's unclear if in the former, they are revolving around the earth. The Republic doesn't specifically mention the circles of the same and different; still, in both the Timaeus and the Republic, the motion of the fixed stars is assumed to align with the motion of the whole. The varying thickness of the rims might be meant to indicate the relative distances of the planets. Plato likely intended for the earth, from which Er and his companions observe the heavens, to be stationary; however, it’s uncertain if it is also revolving, unless that is suggested by the rotation of the axis (Timaeus). The viewer could be imagined as observing the celestial bodies from above or below. The earth serves as a blend of earth and heaven, reminiscent of the heaven in the Phaedrus, where the spectator goes out to gaze at the stars while being carried around in the revolution. There’s no clear distinction between the equator and the ecliptic. However, Plato seems to envision that the planets move in the opposite direction of the fixed stars to explain their appearances in the sky. The description of the meadow and the reward of the good and the punishment of the evil after death shows influences from Homer.

The description of the axis as a spindle, and of the heavenly bodies as forming a whole, partly arises out of the attempt to connect the motions of the heavenly bodies with the mythological image of the web, or weaving of the Fates. The giving of the lots, the weaving of them, and the making of them irreversible, which are ascribed to the three Fates—Lachesis, Clotho, Atropos, are obviously derived from their names. The element of chance in human life is indicated by the order of the lots. But chance, however adverse, may be overcome by the wisdom of man, if he knows how to choose aright; there is a worse enemy to man than chance; this enemy is himself. He who was moderately fortunate in the number of the lot—even the very last comer—might have a good life if he chose with wisdom. And as Plato does not like to make an assertion which is unproven, he more than confirms this statement a few sentences afterwards by the example of Odysseus, who chose last. But the virtue which is founded on habit is not sufficient to enable a man to choose; he must add to virtue knowledge, if he is to act rightly when placed in new circumstances. The routine of good actions and good habits is an inferior sort of goodness; and, as Coleridge says, ‘Common sense is intolerable which is not based on metaphysics,’ so Plato would have said, ‘Habit is worthless which is not based upon philosophy.’

The description of the axis as a spindle and the celestial bodies as forming a whole partly comes from trying to link the movements of these bodies to the mythological idea of the web or the weaving of the Fates. The casting of lots, the weaving of them, and making them unchangeable, attributed to the three Fates—Lachesis, Clotho, Atropos—are clearly reflected in their names. The role of chance in human life is shown by the order of the lots. However, despite the challenges posed by chance, it can be overcome by human wisdom if one knows how to choose wisely. There's a greater enemy to man than chance; that enemy is oneself. Even someone who is only moderately lucky with the lots—even the last one to choose—can have a good life if they make wise choices. And since Plato is cautious about making unsupported claims, he reinforces this idea shortly after with the example of Odysseus, who chose last. However, virtue based on habit alone is not enough for a person to make wise choices; they must also combine virtue with knowledge to act correctly in new situations. Relying solely on good actions and habits represents a lower level of goodness; and just as Coleridge noted that "common sense is intolerable if it isn’t grounded in metaphysics," Plato would suggest that "habit is worthless if it isn’t grounded in philosophy."

The freedom of the will to refuse the evil and to choose the good is distinctly asserted. ‘Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he will have more or less of her.’ The life of man is ‘rounded’ by necessity; there are circumstances prior to birth which affect him (Pol.). But within the walls of necessity there is an open space in which he is his own master, and can study for himself the effects which the variously compounded gifts of nature or fortune have upon the soul, and act accordingly. All men cannot have the first choice in everything. But the lot of all men is good enough, if they choose wisely and will live diligently.

The freedom to say no to what’s bad and to choose what's good is clearly stated. "Virtue is free, and as a person respects or disrespects it, they will have more or less of it." A person's life is shaped by necessity; there are conditions before birth that influence them (Pol.). However, within the boundaries of necessity, there is a space where they are in control and can explore how the different traits they are born with or circumstances in life affect their soul, and act accordingly. Not everyone can have the top choice in everything. But everyone has a decent path if they make wise choices and live actively.

The verisimilitude which is given to the pilgrimage of a thousand years, by the intimation that Ardiaeus had lived a thousand years before; the coincidence of Er coming to life on the twelfth day after he was supposed to have been dead with the seven days which the pilgrims passed in the meadow, and the four days during which they journeyed to the column of light; the precision with which the soul is mentioned who chose the twentieth lot; the passing remarks that there was no definite character among the souls, and that the souls which had chosen ill blamed any one rather than themselves; or that some of the souls drank more than was necessary of the waters of Forgetfulness, while Er himself was hindered from drinking; the desire of Odysseus to rest at last, unlike the conception of him in Dante and Tennyson; the feigned ignorance of how Er returned to the body, when the other souls went shooting like stars to their birth,—add greatly to the probability of the narrative. They are such touches of nature as the art of Defoe might have introduced when he wished to win credibility for marvels and apparitions.

The realism of the pilgrimage that spans a thousand years is enhanced by the idea that Ardiaeus lived a thousand years earlier. The coincidence of Er coming back to life twelve days after he was presumed dead aligns with the seven days the pilgrims spent in the meadow and the four days they traveled to the column of light. The exact mention of the soul who chose the twentieth lot, the casual comments about the lack of distinct characters among the souls, and how those who made poor choices blamed others instead of themselves; or that some souls drank too much from the waters of Forgetfulness while Er himself was prevented from drinking; the longing of Odysseus to finally find rest, which differs from how he's portrayed in Dante and Tennyson; and the deliberate mystery surrounding how Er returned to his body while the other souls shot off like stars to their new lives—all these elements significantly add to the story's plausibility. They are natural details that someone like Defoe might have included to lend credibility to fantastic events and appearances.


There still remain to be considered some points which have been intentionally reserved to the end: (1) the Janus-like character of the Republic, which presents two faces—one an Hellenic state, the other a kingdom of philosophers. Connected with the latter of the two aspects are (2) the paradoxes of the Republic, as they have been termed by Morgenstern: (a) the community of property; (b) of families; (c) the rule of philosophers; (d) the analogy of the individual and the State, which, like some other analogies in the Republic, is carried too far. We may then proceed to consider (3) the subject of education as conceived by Plato, bringing together in a general view the education of youth and the education of after-life; (4) we may note further some essential differences between ancient and modern politics which are suggested by the Republic; (5) we may compare the Politicus and the Laws; (6) we may observe the influence exercised by Plato on his imitators; and (7) take occasion to consider the nature and value of political, and (8) of religious ideals.

There are still some points left to discuss that have been intentionally saved for the end: (1) the dual nature of the Republic, which shows two sides—one as a Hellenic state and the other as a kingdom of philosophers. Linked to the latter are (2) the paradoxes of the Republic, as described by Morgenstern: (a) the shared ownership of property; (b) shared families; (c) the governance by philosophers; (d) the comparison between the individual and the State, which, like some other comparisons in the Republic, is taken too far. Next, we can look at (3) Plato's view on education, integrating the education of youth and lifelong learning; (4) we should also highlight some key differences between ancient and modern politics as suggested by the Republic; (5) we can compare the Politicus and the Laws; (6) we can observe how Plato influenced his followers; and (7) take the opportunity to examine the nature and value of political, and (8) religious ideals.

1. Plato expressly says that he is intending to found an Hellenic State (Book V). Many of his regulations are characteristically Spartan; such as the prohibition of gold and silver, the common meals of the men, the military training of the youth, the gymnastic exercises of the women. The life of Sparta was the life of a camp (Laws), enforced even more rigidly in time of peace than in war; the citizens of Sparta, like Plato’s, were forbidden to trade—they were to be soldiers and not shopkeepers. Nowhere else in Greece was the individual so completely subjected to the State; the time when he was to marry, the education of his children, the clothes which he was to wear, the food which he was to eat, were all prescribed by law. Some of the best enactments in the Republic, such as the reverence to be paid to parents and elders, and some of the worst, such as the exposure of deformed children, are borrowed from the practice of Sparta. The encouragement of friendships between men and youths, or of men with one another, as affording incentives to bravery, is also Spartan; in Sparta too a nearer approach was made than in any other Greek State to equality of the sexes, and to community of property; and while there was probably less of licentiousness in the sense of immorality, the tie of marriage was regarded more lightly than in the rest of Greece. The ‘suprema lex’ was the preservation of the family, and the interest of the State. The coarse strength of a military government was not favourable to purity and refinement; and the excessive strictness of some regulations seems to have produced a reaction. Of all Hellenes the Spartans were most accessible to bribery; several of the greatest of them might be described in the words of Plato as having a ‘fierce secret longing after gold and silver.’ Though not in the strict sense communists, the principle of communism was maintained among them in their division of lands, in their common meals, in their slaves, and in the free use of one another’s goods. Marriage was a public institution: and the women were educated by the State, and sang and danced in public with the men.

1. Plato clearly states that he plans to create a Hellenic State (Book V). Many of his rules are characteristically Spartan, such as the ban on gold and silver, the communal meals for men, the military training for youth, and the physical fitness activities for women. Life in Sparta felt like living in a military camp (Laws), enforced even more strictly during peacetime than in wartime; like Plato’s citizens, Spartiates weren't allowed to engage in trade—they were meant to be soldiers, not shopkeepers. Nowhere else in Greece was the individual so thoroughly subordinated to the State; laws dictated when to get married, how to raise children, what clothes to wear, and what food to eat. Some of the best laws in the Republic, like showing respect to parents and elders, as well as some of the worst, like abandoning deformed children, were taken from Spartan practices. Promoting friendships between men and young boys, or between men themselves, to encourage bravery, is also a Spartan idea; in Sparta, there was also a closer approach to gender equality and shared property than in any other Greek State. While there may have been less immorality, marriage was taken less seriously compared to the rest of Greece. The ultimate law was the preservation of the family and the interests of the State. The rough nature of a military government didn't support purity and refinement, and the overly strict rules seemed to inspire a backlash. Of all Greeks, Spartans were the most prone to bribery; several of their greatest figures could be described in Plato's words as having a "fierce secret longing for gold and silver." Although they weren't communists in the strictest sense, they practiced a form of communism in their land distribution, communal meals, shared slaves, and mutual use of each other's goods. Marriage was a public affair, and women were educated by the State, participating in song and dance with men in public.

Many traditions were preserved at Sparta of the severity with which the magistrates had maintained the primitive rule of music and poetry; as in the Republic of Plato, the new-fangled poet was to be expelled. Hymns to the Gods, which are the only kind of music admitted into the ideal State, were the only kind which was permitted at Sparta. The Spartans, though an unpoetical race, were nevertheless lovers of poetry; they had been stirred by the Elegiac strains of Tyrtaeus, they had crowded around Hippias to hear his recitals of Homer; but in this they resembled the citizens of the timocratic rather than of the ideal State. The council of elder men also corresponds to the Spartan gerousia; and the freedom with which they are permitted to judge about matters of detail agrees with what we are told of that institution. Once more, the military rule of not spoiling the dead or offering arms at the temples; the moderation in the pursuit of enemies; the importance attached to the physical well-being of the citizens; the use of warfare for the sake of defence rather than of aggression—are features probably suggested by the spirit and practice of Sparta.

Many traditions were kept at Sparta, reflecting the strict way the magistrates upheld the original principles of music and poetry; similar to Plato's Republic, any new-age poet would be banned. Only hymns to the Gods, which were the only acceptable type of music in the ideal State, were allowed at Sparta. The Spartans, although not particularly poetic, still appreciated poetry; they were moved by the Elegiac verses of Tyrtaeus and gathered around Hippias to hear his readings of Homer. However, in this aspect, they resembled citizens of a timocratic society more than those of an ideal State. The council of elder men is also similar to the Spartan gerousia; their freedom to judge specific matters aligns with what we know about that institution. Additionally, the military rules against plundering the dead or bringing weapons to temples, the restraint shown in seeking vengeance, the emphasis on the physical health of citizens, and the focus on defense rather than aggression in warfare are traits likely inspired by the principles and practices of Sparta.

To the Spartan type the ideal State reverts in the first decline; and the character of the individual timocrat is borrowed from the Spartan citizen. The love of Lacedaemon not only affected Plato and Xenophon, but was shared by many undistinguished Athenians; there they seemed to find a principle which was wanting in their own democracy. The (Greek) of the Spartans attracted them, that is to say, not the goodness of their laws, but the spirit of order and loyalty which prevailed. Fascinated by the idea, citizens of Athens would imitate the Lacedaemonians in their dress and manners; they were known to the contemporaries of Plato as ‘the persons who had their ears bruised,’ like the Roundheads of the Commonwealth. The love of another church or country when seen at a distance only, the longing for an imaginary simplicity in civilized times, the fond desire of a past which never has been, or of a future which never will be,—these are aspirations of the human mind which are often felt among ourselves. Such feelings meet with a response in the Republic of Plato.

To the Spartan type, the ideal State emerges at its first decline; the character of the individual timocrat is drawn from the Spartan citizen. The admiration for Lacedaemon not only influenced Plato and Xenophon but was also shared by many ordinary Athenians; there they found a principle that was missing in their own democracy. The (Greek) of the Spartans attracted them, not because of the quality of their laws, but due to the spirit of order and loyalty that prevailed. Captivated by this idea, Athenian citizens began to imitate the Lacedaemonians in their clothing and behavior; they were known to Plato's contemporaries as ‘the people with bruised ears,’ similar to the Roundheads of the Commonwealth. The affection for another church or country when seen from afar, the yearning for an imagined simplicity in civilized times, and the nostalgic longing for a past that never existed or a future that never will—these are feelings that the human mind often experiences. Such sentiments resonate within the Republic of Plato.

But there are other features of the Platonic Republic, as, for example, the literary and philosophical education, and the grace and beauty of life, which are the reverse of Spartan. Plato wishes to give his citizens a taste of Athenian freedom as well as of Lacedaemonian discipline. His individual genius is purely Athenian, although in theory he is a lover of Sparta; and he is something more than either—he has also a true Hellenic feeling. He is desirous of humanizing the wars of Hellenes against one another; he acknowledges that the Delphian God is the grand hereditary interpreter of all Hellas. The spirit of harmony and the Dorian mode are to prevail, and the whole State is to have an external beauty which is the reflex of the harmony within. But he has not yet found out the truth which he afterwards enunciated in the Laws—that he was a better legislator who made men to be of one mind, than he who trained them for war. The citizens, as in other Hellenic States, democratic as well as aristocratic, are really an upper class; for, although no mention is made of slaves, the lower classes are allowed to fade away into the distance, and are represented in the individual by the passions. Plato has no idea either of a social State in which all classes are harmonized, or of a federation of Hellas or the world in which different nations or States have a place. His city is equipped for war rather than for peace, and this would seem to be justified by the ordinary condition of Hellenic States. The myth of the earth-born men is an embodiment of the orthodox tradition of Hellas, and the allusion to the four ages of the world is also sanctioned by the authority of Hesiod and the poets. Thus we see that the Republic is partly founded on the ideal of the old Greek polis, partly on the actual circumstances of Hellas in that age. Plato, like the old painters, retains the traditional form, and like them he has also a vision of a city in the clouds.

But there are other aspects of the Platonic Republic, such as the literary and philosophical education and the grace and beauty of life, which are quite the opposite of Spartan ideals. Plato wants to give his citizens a taste of Athenian freedom along with Lacedaemonian discipline. His unique genius is distinctly Athenian, even though he theoretically admires Sparta; and he encompasses something more—he has a genuine Hellenic spirit. He aims to humanize the conflicts among the Hellenes; he acknowledges that the Delphian God is the primary interpreter of all of Greece. The spirit of harmony and the Dorian mode should dominate, and the entire State should reflect an external beauty that mirrors the harmony within. However, he has yet to realize the truth he later expressed in the Laws—that a better legislator is one who fosters unity among people rather than prepares them for war. Like in other Hellenic states, both democratic and aristocratic, the citizens are effectively an upper class; even though there is no mention of slaves, the lower classes are allowed to fade into the background and are represented in individual passions. Plato doesn't envision a social state where all classes are harmonized, nor does he consider a federation of Greece or the world where different nations or states have their place. His city is geared more for war than for peace, which seems justified by the typical state of Hellenic countries. The myth of earth-born men embodies the traditional beliefs of Greece, and the reference to the four ages of the world is also supported by the authority of Hesiod and the poets. Thus, we see that the Republic is partly based on the ideal of the ancient Greek polis and partly on the real circumstances of Greece during that time. Plato, like the old painters, retains the traditional style and, similar to them, he has a vision of a city in the clouds.

There is yet another thread which is interwoven in the texture of the work; for the Republic is not only a Dorian State, but a Pythagorean league. The ‘way of life’ which was connected with the name of Pythagoras, like the Catholic monastic orders, showed the power which the mind of an individual might exercise over his contemporaries, and may have naturally suggested to Plato the possibility of reviving such ‘mediaeval institutions.’ The Pythagoreans, like Plato, enforced a rule of life and a moral and intellectual training. The influence ascribed to music, which to us seems exaggerated, is also a Pythagorean feature; it is not to be regarded as representing the real influence of music in the Greek world. More nearly than any other government of Hellas, the Pythagorean league of three hundred was an aristocracy of virtue. For once in the history of mankind the philosophy of order or (Greek), expressing and consequently enlisting on its side the combined endeavours of the better part of the people, obtained the management of public affairs and held possession of it for a considerable time (until about B.C. 500). Probably only in States prepared by Dorian institutions would such a league have been possible. The rulers, like Plato’s (Greek), were required to submit to a severe training in order to prepare the way for the education of the other members of the community. Long after the dissolution of the Order, eminent Pythagoreans, such as Archytas of Tarentum, retained their political influence over the cities of Magna Graecia. There was much here that was suggestive to the kindred spirit of Plato, who had doubtless meditated deeply on the ‘way of life of Pythagoras’ (Rep.) and his followers. Slight traces of Pythagoreanism are to be found in the mystical number of the State, in the number which expresses the interval between the king and the tyrant, in the doctrine of transmigration, in the music of the spheres, as well as in the great though secondary importance ascribed to mathematics in education.

There’s another important thread woven into the fabric of this work; the Republic isn’t just a Dorian State, but also a Pythagorean league. The ‘way of life’ associated with Pythagoras, similar to Catholic monastic orders, demonstrated the influence an individual’s mind could have on others and may have naturally led Plato to consider reviving such ‘medieval institutions.’ The Pythagoreans, like Plato, promoted a lifestyle and an intellectual and moral education. The supposed power of music, which seems exaggerated to us, is also a Pythagorean aspect; it shouldn't be seen as fully representing the actual influence of music in the Greek world. More than any other government in Greece, the Pythagorean league of three hundred was an aristocracy of virtue. For a brief moment in history, a philosophy of order (Greek), which expressed and rallied the efforts of the virtuous segment of society, managed public affairs and maintained control for a significant period (until around 500 B.C.). Such a league likely would only have been possible in states shaped by Dorian institutions. The leaders, like Plato’s (Greek), were expected to undergo rigorous training to prepare for the education of other community members. Long after the Order fell apart, notable Pythagoreans, like Archytas of Tarentum, continued to hold political sway over the cities of Magna Graecia. There was much here that resonated with Plato, who surely thought deeply about the ‘way of life of Pythagoras’ (Rep.) and his followers. Some subtle traces of Pythagoreanism can be found in the mystical number of the State, in the number that symbolizes the gap between the king and the tyrant, in the idea of transmigration, in the music of the spheres, and in the significant, though secondary, role of mathematics in education.

But as in his philosophy, so also in the form of his State, he goes far beyond the old Pythagoreans. He attempts a task really impossible, which is to unite the past of Greek history with the future of philosophy, analogous to that other impossibility, which has often been the dream of Christendom, the attempt to unite the past history of Europe with the kingdom of Christ. Nothing actually existing in the world at all resembles Plato’s ideal State; nor does he himself imagine that such a State is possible. This he repeats again and again; e.g. in the Republic, or in the Laws where, casting a glance back on the Republic, he admits that the perfect state of communism and philosophy was impossible in his own age, though still to be retained as a pattern. The same doubt is implied in the earnestness with which he argues in the Republic that ideals are none the worse because they cannot be realized in fact, and in the chorus of laughter, which like a breaking wave will, as he anticipates, greet the mention of his proposals; though like other writers of fiction, he uses all his art to give reality to his inventions. When asked how the ideal polity can come into being, he answers ironically, ‘When one son of a king becomes a philosopher’; he designates the fiction of the earth-born men as ‘a noble lie’; and when the structure is finally complete, he fairly tells you that his Republic is a vision only, which in some sense may have reality, but not in the vulgar one of a reign of philosophers upon earth. It has been said that Plato flies as well as walks, but this falls short of the truth; for he flies and walks at the same time, and is in the air and on firm ground in successive instants.

But just like his philosophy, his vision of the State goes way beyond the old Pythagoreans. He takes on a task that's really impossible: trying to connect the past of Greek history with the future of philosophy, similar to that other impossible dream often held by Christendom, which is to merge Europe's historical past with the kingdom of Christ. Nothing that actually exists in the world resembles Plato’s ideal State; nor does he truly believe that such a State is achievable. He keeps saying this over and over, for example, in the Republic or in the Laws, where, reflecting back on the Republic, he acknowledges that the perfect state of communism and philosophy was unattainable in his time, even though it should still serve as a model. The same uncertainty is evident in how seriously he argues in the Republic that ideals aren't any less valuable just because they can't be realized in reality, and in the burst of laughter, which he anticipates will arise when his proposals are mentioned; still, like other fiction writers, he uses all of his skills to make his creations feel real. When asked how this ideal society can actually come to be, he ironically responds, ‘When a king's son becomes a philosopher’; he calls the idea of earth-born men ‘a noble lie’; and when the whole structure is finally laid out, he honestly tells us that his Republic is just a vision, which may hold some sense of reality, but not in the ordinary way of having philosophers rule on Earth. It’s been said that Plato can both fly and walk, but that doesn't quite capture the truth; he can both fly and walk at the same time, being in the air and on solid ground in successive moments.

Niebuhr has asked a trifling question, which may be briefly noticed in this place—Was Plato a good citizen? If by this is meant, Was he loyal to Athenian institutions?—he can hardly be said to be the friend of democracy: but neither is he the friend of any other existing form of government; all of them he regarded as ‘states of faction’ (Laws); none attained to his ideal of a voluntary rule over voluntary subjects, which seems indeed more nearly to describe democracy than any other; and the worst of them is tyranny. The truth is, that the question has hardly any meaning when applied to a great philosopher whose writings are not meant for a particular age and country, but for all time and all mankind. The decline of Athenian politics was probably the motive which led Plato to frame an ideal State, and the Republic may be regarded as reflecting the departing glory of Hellas. As well might we complain of St. Augustine, whose great work ‘The City of God’ originated in a similar motive, for not being loyal to the Roman Empire. Even a nearer parallel might be afforded by the first Christians, who cannot fairly be charged with being bad citizens because, though ‘subject to the higher powers,’ they were looking forward to a city which is in heaven.

Niebuhr has asked a small question, which can be briefly addressed here—Was Plato a good citizen? If this means, Was he loyal to Athenian institutions?—he can hardly be called a friend of democracy: but neither is he a friend of any other existing form of government; he viewed all of them as ‘states of faction’ (Laws); none achieved his ideal of voluntary rule over voluntary subjects, which indeed seems to describe democracy more closely than anything else; and the worst among them is tyranny. The truth is, the question is nearly meaningless when applied to a great philosopher whose writings are intended for all times and all people, not just a specific age or nation. The decline of Athenian politics likely motivated Plato to create an ideal State, and the Republic can be seen as reflecting the fading glory of Hellas. We might as well criticize St. Augustine, whose significant work ‘The City of God’ originated from a similar motive, for not being loyal to the Roman Empire. An even closer parallel might be the first Christians, who cannot fairly be labeled as bad citizens because, while being ‘subject to the higher powers,’ they were looking forward to a city that is in heaven.

2. The idea of the perfect State is full of paradox when judged of according to the ordinary notions of mankind. The paradoxes of one age have been said to become the commonplaces of the next; but the paradoxes of Plato are at least as paradoxical to us as they were to his contemporaries. The modern world has either sneered at them as absurd, or denounced them as unnatural and immoral; men have been pleased to find in Aristotle’s criticisms of them the anticipation of their own good sense. The wealthy and cultivated classes have disliked and also dreaded them; they have pointed with satisfaction to the failure of efforts to realize them in practice. Yet since they are the thoughts of one of the greatest of human intelligences, and of one who had done most to elevate morality and religion, they seem to deserve a better treatment at our hands. We may have to address the public, as Plato does poetry, and assure them that we mean no harm to existing institutions. There are serious errors which have a side of truth and which therefore may fairly demand a careful consideration: there are truths mixed with error of which we may indeed say, ‘The half is better than the whole.’ Yet ‘the half’ may be an important contribution to the study of human nature.

2. The concept of the perfect State is full of contradictions when looked at through the lens of common ideas. It's often said that the paradoxes of one era become the accepted truths of the next; however, Plato's paradoxes remain just as puzzling to us as they were to his contemporaries. The modern world has either mocked them as ridiculous or condemned them as unnatural and immoral; people have enjoyed finding in Aristotle’s critiques of them an endorsement of their own common sense. The wealthy and educated classes have both disliked and feared these ideas; they have pointed out with satisfaction the failures to implement them in real life. Nevertheless, since these are the thoughts of one of the greatest minds in history, who contributed significantly to the advancement of morality and religion, they deserve a better response from us. We may need to communicate to the public, similar to how Plato addressed poetry, that we don’t intend to harm existing institutions. There are serious errors that contain a kernel of truth and thus warrant thoughtful consideration; there are truths intermingled with errors where we can honestly say, ‘The half is better than the whole.’ Yet ‘the half’ might be a crucial contribution to understanding human nature.

(a) The first paradox is the community of goods, which is mentioned slightly at the end of the third Book, and seemingly, as Aristotle observes, is confined to the guardians; at least no mention is made of the other classes. But the omission is not of any real significance, and probably arises out of the plan of the work, which prevents the writer from entering into details.

(a) The first paradox is the community of goods, which is briefly mentioned at the end of the third Book, and seemingly, as Aristotle notes, is limited to the guardians; there’s no mention of the other classes. However, this omission isn’t really significant and likely stems from the structure of the work, which keeps the writer from going into specifics.

Aristotle censures the community of property much in the spirit of modern political economy, as tending to repress industry, and as doing away with the spirit of benevolence. Modern writers almost refuse to consider the subject, which is supposed to have been long ago settled by the common opinion of mankind. But it must be remembered that the sacredness of property is a notion far more fixed in modern than in ancient times. The world has grown older, and is therefore more conservative. Primitive society offered many examples of land held in common, either by a tribe or by a township, and such may probably have been the original form of landed tenure. Ancient legislators had invented various modes of dividing and preserving the divisions of land among the citizens; according to Aristotle there were nations who held the land in common and divided the produce, and there were others who divided the land and stored the produce in common. The evils of debt and the inequality of property were far greater in ancient than in modern times, and the accidents to which property was subject from war, or revolution, or taxation, or other legislative interference, were also greater. All these circumstances gave property a less fixed and sacred character. The early Christians are believed to have held their property in common, and the principle is sanctioned by the words of Christ himself, and has been maintained as a counsel of perfection in almost all ages of the Church. Nor have there been wanting instances of modern enthusiasts who have made a religion of communism; in every age of religious excitement notions like Wycliffe’s ‘inheritance of grace’ have tended to prevail. A like spirit, but fiercer and more violent, has appeared in politics. ‘The preparation of the Gospel of peace’ soon becomes the red flag of Republicanism.

Aristotle critiques the idea of community property much like today’s political economists, arguing that it stifles industry and undermines generosity. Modern writers often shy away from this topic, believing it was settled long ago by common consensus. However, it’s important to note that the sacredness of property is a concept that is much more entrenched in modern times compared to ancient ones. The world has aged and become more conservative. Early societies often demonstrated examples of land being shared, whether by tribes or communities, and this may have been the original way land was owned. Ancient lawmakers created various methods to divide and maintain land among citizens; according to Aristotle, some nations shared land and divided its produce, while others divided land and shared the harvest. The issues of debt and property inequality were much more pronounced in ancient times than today, and property was more vulnerable to war, revolution, taxation, or other forms of governmental interference. All these factors made property feel less secure and sacred. Early Christians are thought to have shared their possessions, a principle endorsed by Christ’s teachings and upheld as an ideal throughout many periods in Church history. There have also been modern movements where enthusiasts have turned communism into a religious belief; in every era of religious fervor, ideas similar to Wycliffe’s ‘inheritance of grace’ have gained traction. A similar but more intense spirit has surfaced in politics, where ‘the preparation of the Gospel of peace’ quickly transforms into the rallying cry for Republicanism.

We can hardly judge what effect Plato’s views would have upon his own contemporaries; they would perhaps have seemed to them only an exaggeration of the Spartan commonwealth. Even modern writers would acknowledge that the right of private property is based on expediency, and may be interfered with in a variety of ways for the public good. Any other mode of vesting property which was found to be more advantageous, would in time acquire the same basis of right; ‘the most useful,’ in Plato’s words, ‘would be the most sacred.’ The lawyers and ecclesiastics of former ages would have spoken of property as a sacred institution. But they only meant by such language to oppose the greatest amount of resistance to any invasion of the rights of individuals and of the Church.

We can barely assess the impact of Plato’s ideas on his contemporaries; they might have just seen them as an exaggerated version of the Spartan state. Even modern writers would agree that the right to own property is based on practicality and can be limited in various ways for the greater good. Any different approach to property that proves to be more beneficial would eventually gain the same legitimacy; as Plato put it, “the most useful” would be “the most sacred.” In earlier times, lawyers and church leaders viewed property as a sacred institution. However, they merely used such language to resist any threats to individual and Church rights.

When we consider the question, without any fear of immediate application to practice, in the spirit of Plato’s Republic, are we quite sure that the received notions of property are the best? Is the distribution of wealth which is customary in civilized countries the most favourable that can be conceived for the education and development of the mass of mankind? Can ‘the spectator of all time and all existence’ be quite convinced that one or two thousand years hence, great changes will not have taken place in the rights of property, or even that the very notion of property, beyond what is necessary for personal maintenance, may not have disappeared? This was a distinction familiar to Aristotle, though likely to be laughed at among ourselves. Such a change would not be greater than some other changes through which the world has passed in the transition from ancient to modern society, for example, the emancipation of the serfs in Russia, or the abolition of slavery in America and the West Indies; and not so great as the difference which separates the Eastern village community from the Western world. To accomplish such a revolution in the course of a few centuries, would imply a rate of progress not more rapid than has actually taken place during the last fifty or sixty years. The kingdom of Japan underwent more change in five or six years than Europe in five or six hundred. Many opinions and beliefs which have been cherished among ourselves quite as strongly as the sacredness of property have passed away; and the most untenable propositions respecting the right of bequests or entail have been maintained with as much fervour as the most moderate. Some one will be heard to ask whether a state of society can be final in which the interests of thousands are perilled on the life or character of a single person. And many will indulge the hope that our present condition may, after all, be only transitional, and may conduct to a higher, in which property, besides ministering to the enjoyment of the few, may also furnish the means of the highest culture to all, and will be a greater benefit to the public generally, and also more under the control of public authority. There may come a time when the saying, ‘Have I not a right to do what I will with my own?’ will appear to be a barbarous relic of individualism;—when the possession of a part may be a greater blessing to each and all than the possession of the whole is now to any one.

When we think about this question, without worrying about how it applies to real life, in the spirit of Plato’s Republic, can we be sure that our current ideas about property are the best? Is the way wealth is distributed in civilized countries really the best option for the education and development of all people? Can “the observer of all time and existence” really believe that in one or two thousand years, there won’t be significant changes in property rights, or that the concept of property, beyond what’s needed for personal survival, might not even vanish? This was a distinction well-known to Aristotle, although it might seem ridiculous to us. Such a change wouldn’t be more drastic than others the world has experienced moving from ancient to modern society, such as the freeing of serfs in Russia or the end of slavery in America and the West Indies; and it’s not as significant as the gap between Eastern village communities and the Western world. Achieving such a revolution within a few centuries would suggest a pace of progress no faster than what has really happened in the last fifty or sixty years. Japan changed more in five or six years than Europe did in five or six hundred. Many opinions and beliefs we hold dear, as strongly as we do the sanctity of property, have disappeared; and some very shaky ideas about inheritance and property rights have been defended with the same passion as more reasonable views. Someone might question whether a society can be stable when the well-being of thousands depends on one person's life or character. Many will still hope that our current situation is just a temporary phase that could lead us to a better future, where property not only serves the enjoyment of a few, but also provides opportunities for the highest cultural development for everyone, benefiting society as a whole and being more regulated by public authority. There may come a time when the phrase “Do I not have the right to do what I want with my own?” seems like a primitive remnant of individualism; a time when sharing part of what we have might be more valuable to everyone than one person having it all.

Such reflections appear visionary to the eye of the practical statesman, but they are within the range of possibility to the philosopher. He can imagine that in some distant age or clime, and through the influence of some individual, the notion of common property may or might have sunk as deep into the heart of a race, and have become as fixed to them, as private property is to ourselves. He knows that this latter institution is not more than four or five thousand years old: may not the end revert to the beginning? In our own age even Utopias affect the spirit of legislation, and an abstract idea may exercise a great influence on practical politics.

Such thoughts might seem idealistic to a practical politician, but they are quite possible for a philosopher. He can picture that, in some future era or place, and through the influence of a certain individual, the idea of common ownership could become as ingrained in a society as private property is for us today. He understands that the concept of private property is only about four or five thousand years old: could the cycle return to its origins? Even in our time, utopian ideas can influence the lawmaking process, and a theoretical concept can have a significant impact on real-world politics.

The objections that would be generally urged against Plato’s community of property, are the old ones of Aristotle, that motives for exertion would be taken away, and that disputes would arise when each was dependent upon all. Every man would produce as little and consume as much as he liked. The experience of civilized nations has hitherto been adverse to Socialism. The effort is too great for human nature; men try to live in common, but the personal feeling is always breaking in. On the other hand it may be doubted whether our present notions of property are not conventional, for they differ in different countries and in different states of society. We boast of an individualism which is not freedom, but rather an artificial result of the industrial state of modern Europe. The individual is nominally free, but he is also powerless in a world bound hand and foot in the chains of economic necessity. Even if we cannot expect the mass of mankind to become disinterested, at any rate we observe in them a power of organization which fifty years ago would never have been suspected. The same forces which have revolutionized the political system of Europe, may effect a similar change in the social and industrial relations of mankind. And if we suppose the influence of some good as well as neutral motives working in the community, there will be no absurdity in expecting that the mass of mankind having power, and becoming enlightened about the higher possibilities of human life, when they learn how much more is attainable for all than is at present the possession of a favoured few, may pursue the common interest with an intelligence and persistency which mankind have hitherto never seen.

The common objections to Plato’s idea of shared property are the same old arguments from Aristotle: that it would eliminate motivation for hard work and lead to conflicts since everyone would depend on everyone else. Each person would produce as little and consume as much as they wanted. So far, the experience of civilized nations has shown that socialism doesn’t work well. The effort required is too much for human nature; people try to live together, but personal feelings always interfere. On the flip side, we might question whether our current ideas about property are just social constructs, as they vary across different countries and social situations. We pride ourselves on individualism, but it’s not true freedom; it’s more of an artificial outcome of modern Europe’s industrial system. Individuals may appear free in name, but they are actually powerless, stuck in a world constrained by economic necessity. Even if we can’t expect the majority of people to be selfless, it's clear they possess an organizing ability that would have been unimaginable fifty years ago. The same forces that have changed Europe’s political landscape could also transform social and economic relationships. If we assume that some positive and neutral motives are influencing the community, it’s not unreasonable to think that people could become empowered and enlightened about the greater potentials of life. Once they realize how much more could be available to everyone compared to what a privileged few currently have, they might pursue the common good with a level of intelligence and determination that has never been seen before.

Now that the world has once been set in motion, and is no longer held fast under the tyranny of custom and ignorance; now that criticism has pierced the veil of tradition and the past no longer overpowers the present,—the progress of civilization may be expected to be far greater and swifter than heretofore. Even at our present rate of speed the point at which we may arrive in two or three generations is beyond the power of imagination to foresee. There are forces in the world which work, not in an arithmetical, but in a geometrical ratio of increase. Education, to use the expression of Plato, moves like a wheel with an ever-multiplying rapidity. Nor can we say how great may be its influence, when it becomes universal,—when it has been inherited by many generations,—when it is freed from the trammels of superstition and rightly adapted to the wants and capacities of different classes of men and women. Neither do we know how much more the co-operation of minds or of hands may be capable of accomplishing, whether in labour or in study. The resources of the natural sciences are not half-developed as yet; the soil of the earth, instead of growing more barren, may become many times more fertile than hitherto; the uses of machinery far greater, and also more minute than at present. New secrets of physiology may be revealed, deeply affecting human nature in its innermost recesses. The standard of health may be raised and the lives of men prolonged by sanitary and medical knowledge. There may be peace, there may be leisure, there may be innocent refreshments of many kinds. The ever-increasing power of locomotion may join the extremes of earth. There may be mysterious workings of the human mind, such as occur only at great crises of history. The East and the West may meet together, and all nations may contribute their thoughts and their experience to the common stock of humanity. Many other elements enter into a speculation of this kind. But it is better to make an end of them. For such reflections appear to the majority far-fetched, and to men of science, commonplace.

Now that the world has been set in motion and is no longer stuck under the control of tradition and ignorance; now that criticism has broken through the shield of the past and the past no longer dominates the present—civilization's progress is likely to be much greater and faster than before. Even at our current pace, the future we could reach in two or three generations is beyond what we can imagine. There are forces in the world that grow not in a linear, but in an exponential way. Education, as Plato said, moves like a wheel that accelerates exponentially. We also can't predict how significant its impact might be once it becomes universal—once it's been passed down through many generations—once it's freed from the chains of superstition and properly suited to the needs and abilities of different groups of people. We also don't know how much more collaboration between minds or hands could achieve, whether in work or study. The potential of natural sciences is still only partially tapped; the earth's soil could become much more fertile instead of less so; the uses of machinery could expand in ways that are both broader and more precise than they are now. New insights into physiology could emerge, profoundly influencing our understanding of human nature. Health standards might improve, and lives could be extended through advances in sanitation and medicine. There could be peace, leisure, and various wholesome pastimes. The ever-growing power of transportation may connect distant parts of the world. There could be surprising insights from the human mind that only occur during critical moments in history. The East and West may come together, allowing all nations to share their ideas and experiences, enriching our collective humanity. Many other factors could be considered in such speculation. However, it's better to stop here, as such thoughts often seem far-fetched to many and ordinary to scientists.

(b) Neither to the mind of Plato nor of Aristotle did the doctrine of community of property present at all the same difficulty, or appear to be the same violation of the common Hellenic sentiment, as the community of wives and children. This paradox he prefaces by another proposal, that the occupations of men and women shall be the same, and that to this end they shall have a common training and education. Male and female animals have the same pursuits—why not also the two sexes of man?

(b) For both Plato and Aristotle, the idea of shared property didn't seem nearly as problematic or as much of a breach of common Greek values as the idea of sharing wives and children. He introduces this paradox with another suggestion: that men and women should have the same roles and, to support this, they should undergo the same training and education. Just as male and female animals have similar activities, why shouldn't the two genders of humans?

But have we not here fallen into a contradiction? for we were saying that different natures should have different pursuits. How then can men and women have the same? And is not the proposal inconsistent with our notion of the division of labour?—These objections are no sooner raised than answered; for, according to Plato, there is no organic difference between men and women, but only the accidental one that men beget and women bear children. Following the analogy of the other animals, he contends that all natural gifts are scattered about indifferently among both sexes, though there may be a superiority of degree on the part of the men. The objection on the score of decency to their taking part in the same gymnastic exercises, is met by Plato’s assertion that the existing feeling is a matter of habit.

But haven't we stumbled into a contradiction? We were saying that different natures should have different pursuits. So how can men and women have the same ones? And isn’t the proposal inconsistent with our idea of the division of labor?—These objections are quickly addressed; according to Plato, there’s no fundamental difference between men and women, just the accidental fact that men create and women carry children. Drawing from the example of other animals, he argues that all natural talents are distributed equally between both sexes, though men might have a slight edge in some areas. The concern about decency regarding them participating in the same physical training is countered by Plato’s claim that the current discomfort is merely a matter of habit.

That Plato should have emancipated himself from the ideas of his own country and from the example of the East, shows a wonderful independence of mind. He is conscious that women are half the human race, in some respects the more important half (Laws); and for the sake both of men and women he desires to raise the woman to a higher level of existence. He brings, not sentiment, but philosophy to bear upon a question which both in ancient and modern times has been chiefly regarded in the light of custom or feeling. The Greeks had noble conceptions of womanhood in the goddesses Athene and Artemis, and in the heroines Antigone and Andromache. But these ideals had no counterpart in actual life. The Athenian woman was in no way the equal of her husband; she was not the entertainer of his guests or the mistress of his house, but only his housekeeper and the mother of his children. She took no part in military or political matters; nor is there any instance in the later ages of Greece of a woman becoming famous in literature. ‘Hers is the greatest glory who has the least renown among men,’ is the historian’s conception of feminine excellence. A very different ideal of womanhood is held up by Plato to the world; she is to be the companion of the man, and to share with him in the toils of war and in the cares of government. She is to be similarly trained both in bodily and mental exercises. She is to lose as far as possible the incidents of maternity and the characteristics of the female sex.

That Plato broke away from the ideas of his own society and the examples from the East shows an impressive independence of thought. He understands that women make up half of humanity and are, in some ways, the more important half (Laws); and for the benefit of both men and women, he wants to elevate women to a higher level of existence. He approaches this issue not through sentiment but through philosophy, a question that has traditionally been viewed mainly through the lens of custom or emotion. The Greeks had noble ideals of womanhood in goddesses like Athene and Artemis, and in heroines such as Antigone and Andromache. However, these ideals did not reflect the realities of life. Athenian women were definitely not equal to their husbands; they weren't the ones entertaining guests or managing the household but were simply housekeepers and mothers. They had no role in military or political matters, and there are no examples in later Greek history of women gaining fame in literature. The historian’s view of feminine excellence is that “hers is the greatest glory who has the least renown among men.” Plato presents a very different ideal of womanhood; she is to be a companion to men, sharing both the struggles of war and the responsibilities of government. She is to receive similar training in both physical and mental activities. She is expected to minimize the characteristics associated with motherhood and the female sex as much as possible.

The modern antagonist of the equality of the sexes would argue that the differences between men and women are not confined to the single point urged by Plato; that sensibility, gentleness, grace, are the qualities of women, while energy, strength, higher intelligence, are to be looked for in men. And the criticism is just: the differences affect the whole nature, and are not, as Plato supposes, confined to a single point. But neither can we say how far these differences are due to education and the opinions of mankind, or physically inherited from the habits and opinions of former generations. Women have been always taught, not exactly that they are slaves, but that they are in an inferior position, which is also supposed to have compensating advantages; and to this position they have conformed. It is also true that the physical form may easily change in the course of generations through the mode of life; and the weakness or delicacy, which was once a matter of opinion, may become a physical fact. The characteristics of sex vary greatly in different countries and ranks of society, and at different ages in the same individuals. Plato may have been right in denying that there was any ultimate difference in the sexes of man other than that which exists in animals, because all other differences may be conceived to disappear in other states of society, or under different circumstances of life and training.

The modern opponent of gender equality would argue that the differences between men and women aren't limited to the single point made by Plato; that sensitivity, kindness, and grace are qualities associated with women, while energy, strength, and higher intelligence are expected from men. This criticism is valid: the differences impact the entire nature and aren't, as Plato suggests, confined to just one aspect. However, we also cannot determine how much of these differences stem from education and societal beliefs, or if they are physically inherited from the habits and opinions of past generations. Women have always been taught not exactly that they are slaves, but that they hold an inferior position, which is also believed to have its own advantages; they have conformed to this role. It’s also true that physical traits can easily change over generations due to lifestyle; what was once seen as weakness or delicacy can become a physical reality. The traits associated with gender vary significantly across different countries, social classes, and stages of life within the same individuals. Plato might have been correct in stating that there is no fundamental difference between the sexes of humans other than what exists in animals since all other distinctions might fade in different social contexts or under varying life experiences and education.

The first wave having been passed, we proceed to the second—community of wives and children. ‘Is it possible? Is it desirable?’ For as Glaucon intimates, and as we far more strongly insist, ‘Great doubts may be entertained about both these points.’ Any free discussion of the question is impossible, and mankind are perhaps right in not allowing the ultimate bases of social life to be examined. Few of us can safely enquire into the things which nature hides, any more than we can dissect our own bodies. Still, the manner in which Plato arrived at his conclusions should be considered. For here, as Mr. Grote has remarked, is a wonderful thing, that one of the wisest and best of men should have entertained ideas of morality which are wholly at variance with our own. And if we would do Plato justice, we must examine carefully the character of his proposals. First, we may observe that the relations of the sexes supposed by him are the reverse of licentious: he seems rather to aim at an impossible strictness. Secondly, he conceives the family to be the natural enemy of the state; and he entertains the serious hope that an universal brotherhood may take the place of private interests—an aspiration which, although not justified by experience, has possessed many noble minds. On the other hand, there is no sentiment or imagination in the connections which men and women are supposed by him to form; human beings return to the level of the animals, neither exalting to heaven, nor yet abusing the natural instincts. All that world of poetry and fancy which the passion of love has called forth in modern literature and romance would have been banished by Plato. The arrangements of marriage in the Republic are directed to one object—the improvement of the race. In successive generations a great development both of bodily and mental qualities might be possible. The analogy of animals tends to show that mankind can within certain limits receive a change of nature. And as in animals we should commonly choose the best for breeding, and destroy the others, so there must be a selection made of the human beings whose lives are worthy to be preserved.

The first wave has passed, and we move on to the second—community of wives and children. ‘Is it possible? Is it desirable?’ Because, as Glaucon suggests, and we insist even more strongly, ‘There are serious doubts about both points.’ Any open discussion on this topic is impossible, and perhaps people are right to prevent the fundamental aspects of social life from being questioned. Few of us can safely investigate the things that nature conceals, just as we can't dissect our own bodies. Still, we should consider how Plato reached his conclusions. As Mr. Grote noted, it’s quite remarkable that one of the wisest and best individuals entertained moral ideas that are completely different from our own. To do justice to Plato, we must closely examine his proposals. First, we can see that the relationships he envisions are the opposite of promiscuous; he seems to aim for an unattainable strictness. Second, he views the family as a natural enemy of the state and seriously hopes that universal brotherhood can replace individual interests—an aspiration that, although not supported by experience, has inspired many noble minds. On the flip side, there’s no feeling or imagination in the relationships between men and women as he describes them; people revert to being like animals, lacking the elevation to heaven or any abuse of natural instincts. All the world of poetry and fantasy that love has sparked in modern literature and romance would be absent in Plato's vision. The marriage arrangements in the Republic serve one purpose—the improvement of the race. Over generations, significant development of both physical and mental qualities might be achievable. The analogy of animals suggests that humans can undergo certain changes. Just as we typically select the best animals for breeding and cull the rest, we must also choose which human lives are worthy of preservation.

We start back horrified from this Platonic ideal, in the belief, first, that the higher feelings of humanity are far too strong to be crushed out; secondly, that if the plan could be carried into execution we should be poorly recompensed by improvements in the breed for the loss of the best things in life. The greatest regard for the weakest and meanest of human beings—the infant, the criminal, the insane, the idiot, truly seems to us one of the noblest results of Christianity. We have learned, though as yet imperfectly, that the individual man has an endless value in the sight of God, and that we honour Him when we honour the darkened and disfigured image of Him (Laws). This is the lesson which Christ taught in a parable when He said, ‘Their angels do always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven.’ Such lessons are only partially realized in any age; they were foreign to the age of Plato, as they have very different degrees of strength in different countries or ages of the Christian world. To the Greek the family was a religious and customary institution binding the members together by a tie inferior in strength to that of friendship, and having a less solemn and sacred sound than that of country. The relationship which existed on the lower level of custom, Plato imagined that he was raising to the higher level of nature and reason; while from the modern and Christian point of view we regard him as sanctioning murder and destroying the first principles of morality.

We step back in horror from this ideal model, believing, first, that the higher feelings of humanity are way too strong to be completely crushed; and second, that if this plan could actually be put into action, we would be poorly compensated by any improvements in the breed for losing the best things in life. The greatest respect for the weakest and lowest human beings—the infant, the criminal, the mentally ill, the disabled—seems to us one of the noblest outcomes of Christianity. We have learned, though still imperfectly, that every individual has endless value in the eyes of God, and that we honor Him when we honor the distorted and darkened image of Him (Laws). This is the lesson Christ taught in a parable when He said, ‘Their angels do always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven.’ Such lessons are only partially understood in any era; they were absent in the age of Plato, as they vary significantly in strength across different countries or times in the Christian world. To the Greeks, the family was a religious and customary institution that connected its members with ties weaker than friendship, and had a less solemn and sacred significance than that of the country. Plato believed he was elevating the relationships based on custom to a higher level of nature and reason; meanwhile, from a modern and Christian perspective, we see him as endorsing murder and undermining the fundamental principles of morality.

The great error in these and similar speculations is that the difference between man and the animals is forgotten in them. The human being is regarded with the eye of a dog- or bird-fancier, or at best of a slave-owner; the higher or human qualities are left out. The breeder of animals aims chiefly at size or speed or strength; in a few cases at courage or temper; most often the fitness of the animal for food is the great desideratum. But mankind are not bred to be eaten, nor yet for their superiority in fighting or in running or in drawing carts. Neither does the improvement of the human race consist merely in the increase of the bones and flesh, but in the growth and enlightenment of the mind. Hence there must be ‘a marriage of true minds’ as well as of bodies, of imagination and reason as well as of lusts and instincts. Men and women without feeling or imagination are justly called brutes; yet Plato takes away these qualities and puts nothing in their place, not even the desire of a noble offspring, since parents are not to know their own children. The most important transaction of social life, he who is the idealist philosopher converts into the most brutal. For the pair are to have no relation to one another, except at the hymeneal festival; their children are not theirs, but the state’s; nor is any tie of affection to unite them. Yet here the analogy of the animals might have saved Plato from a gigantic error, if he had ‘not lost sight of his own illustration.’ For the ‘nobler sort of birds and beasts’ nourish and protect their offspring and are faithful to one another.

The major flaw in these and similar ideas is that they overlook the difference between humans and animals. People are seen through the eyes of a dog or bird enthusiast, or at best as a slave owner; the higher human qualities are ignored. Animal breeders mainly focus on size, speed, or strength; sometimes they consider courage or temperament, but most often they care about the animal’s suitability for food. However, humans aren’t raised to be eaten, nor are they meant to excel solely in fighting, running, or pulling carts. The improvement of the human race isn’t just about increasing physical mass; it’s about the development and enlightenment of the mind. Therefore, there has to be a 'merger of true minds' as well as bodies, blending imagination and reason alongside desires and instincts. Men and women who lack feelings or imagination rightly deserve to be called brutes; yet Plato removes these qualities and offers nothing in exchange, not even the desire for noble offspring, since parents won’t know their own children. The most crucial aspect of social life, he, as the idealist philosopher, turns into something brutal. The couple is supposed to have no connection with each other except at the wedding; their children belong to the state, and no emotional bond exists between them. Yet, in this case, the analogy with animals could have saved Plato from a massive misunderstanding if he hadn’t ‘lost sight of his own illustration.’ Because the ‘nobler kinds of birds and beasts’ care for and protect their young and remain faithful to one another.

An eminent physiologist thinks it worth while ‘to try and place life on a physical basis.’ But should not life rest on the moral rather than upon the physical? The higher comes first, then the lower, first the human and rational, afterwards the animal. Yet they are not absolutely divided; and in times of sickness or moments of self-indulgence they seem to be only different aspects of a common human nature which includes them both. Neither is the moral the limit of the physical, but the expansion and enlargement of it,—the highest form which the physical is capable of receiving. As Plato would say, the body does not take care of the body, and still less of the mind, but the mind takes care of both. In all human action not that which is common to man and the animals is the characteristic element, but that which distinguishes him from them. Even if we admit the physical basis, and resolve all virtue into health of body ‘la facon que notre sang circule,’ still on merely physical grounds we must come back to ideas. Mind and reason and duty and conscience, under these or other names, are always reappearing. There cannot be health of body without health of mind; nor health of mind without the sense of duty and the love of truth (Charm).

An important physiologist believes it’s worthwhile "to try and put life on a physical foundation." But shouldn’t life be based on moral values rather than physical ones? The higher comes first, then the lower; first the human and rational aspects, followed by the animal. However, they're not completely separate; during sickness or moments of indulgence, they seem to be just different facets of a shared human nature that encompasses both. The moral doesn't just limit the physical; it's the growth and extension of it — the highest form the physical can achieve. As Plato would say, the body doesn’t care for the body, and even less for the mind, but the mind cares for both. In all human actions, the distinguishing factor is not what we share with animals, but what sets us apart from them. Even if we acknowledge a physical basis and reduce all virtues to bodily health "the way our blood circulates," we still inevitably return to ideas. Mind, reason, duty, and conscience, whether named differently or not, always come back around. There can’t be physical health without mental well-being; nor can there be mental health without a sense of duty and a love for truth (Charm).

That the greatest of ancient philosophers should in his regulations about marriage have fallen into the error of separating body and mind, does indeed appear surprising. Yet the wonder is not so much that Plato should have entertained ideas of morality which to our own age are revolting, but that he should have contradicted himself to an extent which is hardly credible, falling in an instant from the heaven of idealism into the crudest animalism. Rejoicing in the newly found gift of reflection, he appears to have thought out a subject about which he had better have followed the enlightened feeling of his own age. The general sentiment of Hellas was opposed to his monstrous fancy. The old poets, and in later time the tragedians, showed no want of respect for the family, on which much of their religion was based. But the example of Sparta, and perhaps in some degree the tendency to defy public opinion, seems to have misled him. He will make one family out of all the families of the state. He will select the finest specimens of men and women and breed from these only.

It is indeed surprising that one of the greatest ancient philosophers made the mistake of separating body and mind in his regulations about marriage. The real shock isn’t so much that Plato had ideas about morality that seem shocking to us today, but that he contradicted himself in a way that’s hard to believe, suddenly dropping from the heights of idealism into the most basic animal instincts. Excited by his newfound ability to reflect, he seemed to have thought through a topic where he would have been better off aligning with the enlightened views of his own time. The general sentiment in Greece was against his disturbing ideas. The old poets, and later the tragedians, showed great respect for the family, which was a cornerstone of their religion. However, the example of Sparta, and perhaps a desire to go against public opinion, seems to have misled him. He proposed uniting all the families of the state into one. He intended to select only the best specimens of men and women to breed from.

Yet because the illusion is always returning (for the animal part of human nature will from time to time assert itself in the disguise of philosophy as well as of poetry), and also because any departure from established morality, even where this is not intended, is apt to be unsettling, it may be worth while to draw out a little more at length the objections to the Platonic marriage. In the first place, history shows that wherever polygamy has been largely allowed the race has deteriorated. One man to one woman is the law of God and nature. Nearly all the civilized peoples of the world at some period before the age of written records, have become monogamists; and the step when once taken has never been retraced. The exceptions occurring among Brahmins or Mahometans or the ancient Persians, are of that sort which may be said to prove the rule. The connexions formed between superior and inferior races hardly ever produce a noble offspring, because they are licentious; and because the children in such cases usually despise the mother and are neglected by the father who is ashamed of them. Barbarous nations when they are introduced by Europeans to vice die out; polygamist peoples either import and adopt children from other countries, or dwindle in numbers, or both. Dynasties and aristocracies which have disregarded the laws of nature have decreased in numbers and degenerated in stature; ‘mariages de convenance’ leave their enfeebling stamp on the offspring of them (King Lear). The marriage of near relations, or the marrying in and in of the same family tends constantly to weakness or idiocy in the children, sometimes assuming the form as they grow older of passionate licentiousness. The common prostitute rarely has any offspring. By such unmistakable evidence is the authority of morality asserted in the relations of the sexes: and so many more elements enter into this ‘mystery’ than are dreamed of by Plato and some other philosophers.

Yet because the illusion keeps coming back (since the animal side of human nature will occasionally show itself disguised as both philosophy and poetry), and also because any shift from established morality, even if unintentional, can be unsettling, it might be useful to expand on the objections to Platonic marriage. First, history indicates that wherever polygamy has been widely practiced, the race has declined. One man and one woman is the law of God and nature. Almost all civilized societies at some point before written records have adopted monogamy, and once that step has been taken, it has never been reversed. The exceptions found among Brahmins, Muslims, or ancient Persians tend to reinforce the rule. Connections between superior and inferior races rarely produce noble offspring because they are morally corrupt; in these cases, the children typically look down on their mother and are neglected by their father, who feels ashamed of them. Savage nations that encounter vice introduced by Europeans tend to die out; polygamous societies either take in and adopt children from other countries, or their numbers decline, or sometimes both. Dynasties and aristocracies that ignore the laws of nature have dwindled both in numbers and stature; "marriages of convenience" leave their weakening mark on their descendants (King Lear). Marrying close relatives, or the inbreeding within the same family, consistently leads to weakness or idiocy in the children, sometimes resulting in intense promiscuity as they grow older. Common prostitutes rarely have children. Such clear evidence reinforces the authority of morality in the relationships between the sexes: and so many more factors come into play in this "mystery" than Plato and other philosophers might have imagined.

Recent enquirers have indeed arrived at the conclusion that among primitive tribes there existed a community of wives as of property, and that the captive taken by the spear was the only wife or slave whom any man was permitted to call his own. The partial existence of such customs among some of the lower races of man, and the survival of peculiar ceremonies in the marriages of some civilized nations, are thought to furnish a proof of similar institutions having been once universal. There can be no question that the study of anthropology has considerably changed our views respecting the first appearance of man upon the earth. We know more about the aborigines of the world than formerly, but our increasing knowledge shows above all things how little we know. With all the helps which written monuments afford, we do but faintly realize the condition of man two thousand or three thousand years ago. Of what his condition was when removed to a distance 200,000 or 300,000 years, when the majority of mankind were lower and nearer the animals than any tribe now existing upon the earth, we cannot even entertain conjecture. Plato (Laws) and Aristotle (Metaph.) may have been more right than we imagine in supposing that some forms of civilisation were discovered and lost several times over. If we cannot argue that all barbarism is a degraded civilization, neither can we set any limits to the depth of degradation to which the human race may sink through war, disease, or isolation. And if we are to draw inferences about the origin of marriage from the practice of barbarous nations, we should also consider the remoter analogy of the animals. Many birds and animals, especially the carnivorous, have only one mate, and the love and care of offspring which seems to be natural is inconsistent with the primitive theory of marriage. If we go back to an imaginary state in which men were almost animals and the companions of them, we have as much right to argue from what is animal to what is human as from the barbarous to the civilized man. The record of animal life on the globe is fragmentary,—the connecting links are wanting and cannot be supplied; the record of social life is still more fragmentary and precarious. Even if we admit that our first ancestors had no such institution as marriage, still the stages by which men passed from outer barbarism to the comparative civilization of China, Assyria, and Greece, or even of the ancient Germans, are wholly unknown to us.

Recent inquiries have concluded that among primitive tribes, there existed a community of wives similar to property, and that the only wife or slave a man could claim as his own was the one taken by force. The limited existence of such customs among some of the lower races and the survival of unique ceremonies in the marriages of some civilized nations are thought to provide evidence that similar institutions were once universal. There's no doubt that the study of anthropology has significantly changed our understanding of humanity's first appearance on Earth. We know much more about the world’s original inhabitants than we used to, but our growing knowledge highlights just how little we truly understand. Despite the insights offered by written records, we can only vaguely grasp the state of humanity two thousand or three thousand years ago. When considering what life was like 200,000 or 300,000 years ago, when most humans were more animal-like than any tribe existing today, we can't even begin to speculate. Plato (Laws) and Aristotle (Metaph.) might have been more accurate than we think in suggesting that certain forms of civilization were discovered and lost multiple times. While we can't argue that all barbarism is just a degraded form of civilization, we also can’t limit how far humanity could fall into degradation through war, disease, or isolation. If we’re going to draw conclusions about the origins of marriage from the practices of barbaric nations, we also need to consider the more distant analogy of animals. Many birds and animals, particularly carnivorous ones, typically have only one mate, and the natural love and care for their offspring contradicts the primitive theory of marriage. If we imagine a time when men were almost animal-like and lived alongside them, we have as much right to argue from the animal world to the human world as we do from the barbaric to civilized humans. The record of animal life on the planet is incomplete—the connections are missing and can’t be filled in; the record of social life is even more fragmented and uncertain. Even if we accept that our earliest ancestors didn't have a concept of marriage, the stages through which humans progressed from deep barbarism to the relative civilization of China, Assyria, Greece, or even ancient Germans are entirely unknown to us.

Such speculations are apt to be unsettling, because they seem to show that an institution which was thought to be a revelation from heaven, is only the growth of history and experience. We ask what is the origin of marriage, and we are told that like the right of property, after many wars and contests, it has gradually arisen out of the selfishness of barbarians. We stand face to face with human nature in its primitive nakedness. We are compelled to accept, not the highest, but the lowest account of the origin of human society. But on the other hand we may truly say that every step in human progress has been in the same direction, and that in the course of ages the idea of marriage and of the family has been more and more defined and consecrated. The civilized East is immeasurably in advance of any savage tribes; the Greeks and Romans have improved upon the East; the Christian nations have been stricter in their views of the marriage relation than any of the ancients. In this as in so many other things, instead of looking back with regret to the past, we should look forward with hope to the future. We must consecrate that which we believe to be the most holy, and that ‘which is the most holy will be the most useful.’ There is more reason for maintaining the sacredness of the marriage tie, when we see the benefit of it, than when we only felt a vague religious horror about the violation of it. But in all times of transition, when established beliefs are being undermined, there is a danger that in the passage from the old to the new we may insensibly let go the moral principle, finding an excuse for listening to the voice of passion in the uncertainty of knowledge, or the fluctuations of opinion. And there are many persons in our own day who, enlightened by the study of anthropology, and fascinated by what is new and strange, some using the language of fear, others of hope, are inclined to believe that a time will come when through the self-assertion of women, or the rebellious spirit of children, by the analysis of human relations, or by the force of outward circumstances, the ties of family life may be broken or greatly relaxed. They point to societies in America and elsewhere which tend to show that the destruction of the family need not necessarily involve the overthrow of all morality. Wherever we may think of such speculations, we can hardly deny that they have been more rife in this generation than in any other; and whither they are tending, who can predict?

Such speculations can be unsettling because they suggest that an institution once thought to be a divine revelation is really just a product of history and experience. We ask about the origin of marriage, and we find out that, like the right to own property, it has emerged gradually from the selfishness of primitive people after numerous conflicts. We're confronted with the raw reality of human nature. We're forced to accept not the highest, but the lowest explanation for the origins of human society. However, we can also say that every step in human progress has moved in the same direction, and over time, the concept of marriage and family has become more defined and respected. The civilized East is significantly ahead of any tribal societies; the Greeks and Romans built on the East’s foundations; Christian nations have maintained stricter views on marriage than any ancient cultures. In this, as in many other aspects, instead of looking back with regret, we should look forward with hope for the future. We must honor what we believe to be the most sacred, as what is sacred will be the most useful. There is more reason to uphold the sanctity of marriage when we recognize its benefits rather than just feeling a vague religious fear about violating it. Yet during times of change, when established beliefs are being challenged, there is a risk that we might inadvertently abandon moral principles in our transition from the old to the new, justifying the pursuit of passion amid uncertainty or shifting opinions. Nowadays, many people, enlightened by studying anthropology and intrigued by new and unconventional ideas—some expressing fear, others hope—believe that a time may come when, due to women's assertion, children's rebelliousness, the analysis of human relationships, or external circumstances, family bonds might weaken or even break. They point to communities in America and elsewhere that suggest the breakdown of family doesn't necessarily lead to a collapse of all morality. Regardless of what we think about these speculations, it's hard to deny that they've become more prevalent in this generation than in any other, and who knows where they might lead?

To the doubts and queries raised by these ‘social reformers’ respecting the relation of the sexes and the moral nature of man, there is a sufficient answer, if any is needed. The difference about them and us is really one of fact. They are speaking of man as they wish or fancy him to be, but we are speaking of him as he is. They isolate the animal part of his nature; we regard him as a creature having many sides, or aspects, moving between good and evil, striving to rise above himself and to become ‘a little lower than the angels.’ We also, to use a Platonic formula, are not ignorant of the dissatisfactions and incompatibilities of family life, of the meannesses of trade, of the flatteries of one class of society by another, of the impediments which the family throws in the way of lofty aims and aspirations. But we are conscious that there are evils and dangers in the background greater still, which are not appreciated, because they are either concealed or suppressed. What a condition of man would that be, in which human passions were controlled by no authority, divine or human, in which there was no shame or decency, no higher affection overcoming or sanctifying the natural instincts, but simply a rule of health! Is it for this that we are asked to throw away the civilization which is the growth of ages?

To the doubts and questions raised by these ‘social reformers’ about the relationship between the sexes and the moral nature of man, there is a clear answer, if one is needed. The difference between them and us is really a matter of fact. They talk about man as they wish or imagine him to be, but we discuss him as he actually is. They focus on the animal side of his nature; we see him as a being with many facets, moving between good and evil, striving to rise above himself and to become ‘a little lower than the angels.’ We also, to use a Platonic phrase, are aware of the frustrations and conflicts of family life, the petty aspects of commerce, the flattery one class of society offers to another, the obstacles that family poses to lofty goals and ambitions. But we recognize that there are even greater evils and dangers lurking beneath the surface, which often go unrecognized because they are either hidden or repressed. What kind of existence would it be for humanity if human passions were governed by no authority, whether divine or human, with no sense of shame or decency, no higher love to elevate or sanctify natural instincts, but merely a rule of health? Is this what we are being asked to give up in exchange for the civilization that has developed over ages?

For strength and health are not the only qualities to be desired; there are the more important considerations of mind and character and soul. We know how human nature may be degraded; we do not know how by artificial means any improvement in the breed can be effected. The problem is a complex one, for if we go back only four steps (and these at least enter into the composition of a child), there are commonly thirty progenitors to be taken into account. Many curious facts, rarely admitting of proof, are told us respecting the inheritance of disease or character from a remote ancestor. We can trace the physical resemblances of parents and children in the same family—

For strength and health aren't the only qualities we should value; the more important aspects of mind, character, and soul are also crucial. We understand how human nature can be degraded; however, we don’t know how to effectively improve it through artificial means. It’s a complicated issue because if we look back just four generations (and these at least contribute to a child's makeup), there are generally thirty ancestors to consider. There are many interesting facts, often hard to prove, about inheriting diseases or traits from distant ancestors. We can see the physical similarities between parents and children in the same family—

‘Sic oculos, sic ille manus, sic ora ferebat’;

‘This is how he moved his eyes, this is how he used his hands, this is how he spoke.’

but scarcely less often the differences which distinguish children both from their parents and from one another. We are told of similar mental peculiarities running in families, and again of a tendency, as in the animals, to revert to a common or original stock. But we have a difficulty in distinguishing what is a true inheritance of genius or other qualities, and what is mere imitation or the result of similar circumstances. Great men and great women have rarely had great fathers and mothers. Nothing that we know of in the circumstances of their birth or lineage will explain their appearance. Of the English poets of the last and two preceding centuries scarcely a descendant remains,—none have ever been distinguished. So deeply has nature hidden her secret, and so ridiculous is the fancy which has been entertained by some that we might in time by suitable marriage arrangements or, as Plato would have said, ‘by an ingenious system of lots,’ produce a Shakespeare or a Milton. Even supposing that we could breed men having the tenacity of bulldogs, or, like the Spartans, ‘lacking the wit to run away in battle,’ would the world be any the better? Many of the noblest specimens of the human race have been among the weakest physically. Tyrtaeus or Aesop, or our own Newton, would have been exposed at Sparta; and some of the fairest and strongest men and women have been among the wickedest and worst. Not by the Platonic device of uniting the strong and fair with the strong and fair, regardless of sentiment and morality, nor yet by his other device of combining dissimilar natures (Statesman), have mankind gradually passed from the brutality and licentiousness of primitive marriage to marriage Christian and civilized.

but hardly less often the differences that set children apart from both their parents and from each other. We hear about similar mental traits running in families and also about a tendency, like in animals, to go back to a common or original lineage. However, we struggle to tell what is a true inheritance of talent or other traits, and what is simply imitation or the result of similar circumstances. Great men and women rarely come from great fathers and mothers. Nothing we know about their birth circumstances or lineage explains their emergence. Of the English poets from the last three centuries, hardly any descendants remain—none have stood out. Nature has hidden her secrets so well, and the idea some have entertained that we could eventually produce a Shakespeare or a Milton through careful marriage arrangements or, as Plato would put it, 'by an inventive system of lots,' seems laughable. Even if we could breed people with the determination of bulldogs, or, like the Spartans, 'lacking the sense to flee in battle,' would the world really benefit? Many of the noblest examples of humanity have been among the physically weakest. Tyrtaeus or Aesop, or our own Newton, would have been cast aside in Sparta; and some of the most beautiful and strongest men and women have been among the most wicked and worst. Not by Plato’s method of uniting the strong and beautiful with the strong and beautiful, regardless of emotion and morality, nor by his other method of mixing different natures (Statesman), have people gradually moved from the brutality and immorality of primitive marriage to Christian and civilized marriage.

Few persons would deny that we bring into the world an inheritance of mental and physical qualities derived first from our parents, or through them from some remoter ancestor, secondly from our race, thirdly from the general condition of mankind into which we are born. Nothing is commoner than the remark, that ‘So and so is like his father or his uncle’; and an aged person may not unfrequently note a resemblance in a youth to a long-forgotten ancestor, observing that ‘Nature sometimes skips a generation.’ It may be true also, that if we knew more about our ancestors, these similarities would be even more striking to us. Admitting the facts which are thus described in a popular way, we may however remark that there is no method of difference by which they can be defined or estimated, and that they constitute only a small part of each individual. The doctrine of heredity may seem to take out of our hands the conduct of our own lives, but it is the idea, not the fact, which is really terrible to us. For what we have received from our ancestors is only a fraction of what we are, or may become. The knowledge that drunkenness or insanity has been prevalent in a family may be the best safeguard against their recurrence in a future generation. The parent will be most awake to the vices or diseases in his child of which he is most sensible within himself. The whole of life may be directed to their prevention or cure. The traces of consumption may become fainter, or be wholly effaced: the inherent tendency to vice or crime may be eradicated. And so heredity, from being a curse, may become a blessing. We acknowledge that in the matter of our birth, as in our nature generally, there are previous circumstances which affect us. But upon this platform of circumstances or within this wall of necessity, we have still the power of creating a life for ourselves by the informing energy of the human will.

Few people would argue that we inherit mental and physical traits from our parents, or through them from some distant ancestor, from our ethnicity, and from the broader condition of humanity into which we are born. It's common to hear someone say, ‘So and so looks like their father or uncle,’ and an older person might often remark on a young person resembling a long-forgotten ancestor, saying that ‘Nature sometimes skips a generation.’ It's also likely that if we knew more about our ancestors, these similarities would be even more apparent to us. While we acknowledge these commonly accepted facts, we can point out that there’s no clear way to define or measure them, and they represent only a small part of who we are. The idea of heredity might seem to take control of our lives away from us, but it's the concept, not the reality, that truly frightens us. What we inherit from our ancestors is just a small fraction of what we are or what we can become. Knowing that alcoholism or mental illness has been common in a family can be the best protection against them showing up in future generations. A parent will be most aware of the flaws or illnesses in their child that they recognize in themselves. Life can be focused on preventing or curing these issues. The signs of tuberculosis may fade or be completely erased: the tendency towards vice or crime can be eliminated. Thus, heredity can shift from being a curse to a blessing. We recognize that our birth circumstances, like our general nature, affect us. However, within these circumstances or boundaries, we still have the ability to create our own lives through the powerful force of human will.

There is another aspect of the marriage question to which Plato is a stranger. All the children born in his state are foundlings. It never occurred to him that the greater part of them, according to universal experience, would have perished. For children can only be brought up in families. There is a subtle sympathy between the mother and the child which cannot be supplied by other mothers, or by ‘strong nurses one or more’ (Laws). If Plato’s ‘pen’ was as fatal as the Creches of Paris, or the foundling hospital of Dublin, more than nine-tenths of his children would have perished. There would have been no need to expose or put out of the way the weaklier children, for they would have died of themselves. So emphatically does nature protest against the destruction of the family.

There’s another part of the marriage issue that Plato doesn’t seem to understand. All the kids born in his society are foundlings. He never considered that most of them, based on common experience, would not survive. Children can only thrive in families. There’s a deep bond between a mother and her child that cannot be replaced by other mothers or by “strong nurses one or more” (Laws). If Plato’s “pen” was as deadly as the Creches of Paris or the foundling hospital in Dublin, over ninety percent of his children would have died. There wouldn’t even be a need to abandon or get rid of the weaker children because they would have died on their own. Nature strongly opposes the destruction of the family.

What Plato had heard or seen of Sparta was applied by him in a mistaken way to his ideal commonwealth. He probably observed that both the Spartan men and women were superior in form and strength to the other Greeks; and this superiority he was disposed to attribute to the laws and customs relating to marriage. He did not consider that the desire of a noble offspring was a passion among the Spartans, or that their physical superiority was to be attributed chiefly, not to their marriage customs, but to their temperance and training. He did not reflect that Sparta was great, not in consequence of the relaxation of morality, but in spite of it, by virtue of a political principle stronger far than existed in any other Grecian state. Least of all did he observe that Sparta did not really produce the finest specimens of the Greek race. The genius, the political inspiration of Athens, the love of liberty—all that has made Greece famous with posterity, were wanting among the Spartans. They had no Themistocles, or Pericles, or Aeschylus, or Sophocles, or Socrates, or Plato. The individual was not allowed to appear above the state; the laws were fixed, and he had no business to alter or reform them. Yet whence has the progress of cities and nations arisen, if not from remarkable individuals, coming into the world we know not how, and from causes over which we have no control? Something too much may have been said in modern times of the value of individuality. But we can hardly condemn too strongly a system which, instead of fostering the scattered seeds or sparks of genius and character, tends to smother and extinguish them.

What Plato heard or saw about Sparta was misapplied by him to his ideal society. He likely noticed that both Spartan men and women were physically stronger and more capable than other Greeks, and he was inclined to credit this superiority to their laws and customs around marriage. He didn’t recognize that the desire for noble offspring was a strong passion among Spartans, or that their physical advantage came mainly from their discipline and training, not their marriage traditions. He failed to understand that Sparta’s greatness stemmed not from a decline in morality, but from a political principle that was far stronger than what existed in any other Greek city-state. Most importantly, he overlooked that Sparta didn't actually produce the finest examples of the Greek race. The creativity, political leadership of Athens, and the love of freedom—everything that has made Greece legendary in history—were absent among the Spartans. They had no Themistocles, Pericles, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Socrates, or Plato. The individual was not allowed to stand out above the state; the laws were set, and he had no right to change or challenge them. Yet, how has the progress of cities and nations happened if not through remarkable individuals appearing out of the blue, driven by forces beyond our control? Perhaps too much has been said in recent times about the importance of individuality. However, we can hardly criticize too harshly a system that, instead of nurturing the scattered seeds or sparks of talent and character, tends to stifle and snuff them out.

Still, while condemning Plato, we must acknowledge that neither Christianity, nor any other form of religion and society, has hitherto been able to cope with this most difficult of social problems, and that the side from which Plato regarded it is that from which we turn away. Population is the most untameable force in the political and social world. Do we not find, especially in large cities, that the greatest hindrance to the amelioration of the poor is their improvidence in marriage?—a small fault truly, if not involving endless consequences. There are whole countries too, such as India, or, nearer home, Ireland, in which a right solution of the marriage question seems to lie at the foundation of the happiness of the community. There are too many people on a given space, or they marry too early and bring into the world a sickly and half-developed offspring; or owing to the very conditions of their existence, they become emaciated and hand on a similar life to their descendants. But who can oppose the voice of prudence to the ‘mightiest passions of mankind’ (Laws), especially when they have been licensed by custom and religion? In addition to the influences of education, we seem to require some new principles of right and wrong in these matters, some force of opinion, which may indeed be already heard whispering in private, but has never affected the moral sentiments of mankind in general. We unavoidably lose sight of the principle of utility, just in that action of our lives in which we have the most need of it. The influences which we can bring to bear upon this question are chiefly indirect. In a generation or two, education, emigration, improvements in agriculture and manufactures, may have provided the solution. The state physician hardly likes to probe the wound: it is beyond his art; a matter which he cannot safely let alone, but which he dare not touch:

Still, while criticizing Plato, we have to admit that neither Christianity nor any other religion or society has been able to tackle this challenging social issue. The perspective from which Plato viewed it is the one we tend to avoid. Population is the most uncontrollable force in politics and society. Don’t we see, especially in large cities, that the biggest obstacle to improving the lives of the poor is their poor choices in marriage? — a minor issue, truly, if it didn’t lead to endless consequences. There are entire countries like India, or closer to home, Ireland, where finding a proper solution to the marriage dilemma seems essential for the community's happiness. There are too many people in a given area, or they marry too young and have sickly, underdeveloped children; or due to their living conditions, they become weak and pass on a similar life to their offspring. But who can counter the voice of reason against the 'strongest passions of humanity' (Laws), especially when they’ve been condoned by tradition and religion? Beyond education’s influence, we seem to need some new principles of right and wrong regarding these issues, a force of opinion that might already be gently suggesting changes in private but has never truly impacted the general moral views of society. We inevitably lose sight of the principle of utility precisely at the moment in our lives when we need it the most. The means we can use to address this question are mostly indirect. In a generation or two, education, migration, and advancements in agriculture and manufacturing may provide the answer. The state physician is usually reluctant to delve into the problem: it’s beyond what they can handle; it’s an issue they can’t ignore but also can’t safely address.

‘We do but skin and film the ulcerous place.’

‘We only cover and mask the sore spot.’

When again in private life we see a whole family one by one dropping into the grave under the Ate of some inherited malady, and the parents perhaps surviving them, do our minds ever go back silently to that day twenty-five or thirty years before on which under the fairest auspices, amid the rejoicings of friends and acquaintances, a bride and bridegroom joined hands with one another? In making such a reflection we are not opposing physical considerations to moral, but moral to physical; we are seeking to make the voice of reason heard, which drives us back from the extravagance of sentimentalism on common sense. The late Dr. Combe is said by his biographer to have resisted the temptation to marriage, because he knew that he was subject to hereditary consumption. One who deserved to be called a man of genius, a friend of my youth, was in the habit of wearing a black ribbon on his wrist, in order to remind him that, being liable to outbreaks of insanity, he must not give way to the natural impulses of affection: he died unmarried in a lunatic asylum. These two little facts suggest the reflection that a very few persons have done from a sense of duty what the rest of mankind ought to have done under like circumstances, if they had allowed themselves to think of all the misery which they were about to bring into the world. If we could prevent such marriages without any violation of feeling or propriety, we clearly ought; and the prohibition in the course of time would be protected by a ‘horror naturalis’ similar to that which, in all civilized ages and countries, has prevented the marriage of near relations by blood. Mankind would have been the happier, if some things which are now allowed had from the beginning been denied to them; if the sanction of religion could have prohibited practices inimical to health; if sanitary principles could in early ages have been invested with a superstitious awe. But, living as we do far on in the world’s history, we are no longer able to stamp at once with the impress of religion a new prohibition. A free agent cannot have his fancies regulated by law; and the execution of the law would be rendered impossible, owing to the uncertainty of the cases in which marriage was to be forbidden. Who can weigh virtue, or even fortune against health, or moral and mental qualities against bodily? Who can measure probabilities against certainties? There has been some good as well as evil in the discipline of suffering; and there are diseases, such as consumption, which have exercised a refining and softening influence on the character. Youth is too inexperienced to balance such nice considerations; parents do not often think of them, or think of them too late. They are at a distance and may probably be averted; change of place, a new state of life, the interests of a home may be the cure of them. So persons vainly reason when their minds are already made up and their fortunes irrevocably linked together. Nor is there any ground for supposing that marriages are to any great extent influenced by reflections of this sort, which seem unable to make any head against the irresistible impulse of individual attachment.

When we see a whole family gradually losing members to some inherited illness, while the parents somehow survive them, do we ever reflect back to that day twenty-five or thirty years ago when, under the best circumstances, surrounded by friends and family’s joy, a bride and groom joined hands? In making such a reflection, we aren’t pitting physical considerations against moral ones, but rather morals against physical factors; we’re trying to hear the voice of reason that brings us back from the extremes of sentimentality to common sense. The late Dr. Combe was said by his biographer to have resisted the urge to marry because he was aware that he was prone to hereditary tuberculosis. A friend of my youth, who truly deserved to be called a genius, wore a black ribbon around his wrist to remind himself that, since he faced episodes of insanity, he should not succumb to the natural impulses of love: he died unmarried in a mental institution. These two facts highlight that very few people have acted out of a sense of duty in a way that others should have, if they had allowed themselves to genuinely consider the misery they were about to bring into the world. If we could stop such marriages without hurting feelings or disrupting social norms, we definitely should; and over time, this prohibition would be upheld by a natural repulsion similar to that, which throughout civilized history has prevented marriages among close blood relatives. Humanity would have been happier if certain things that are allowed now had been prohibited from the start; if religious authority could have banned practices harmful to health; if health principles could have been shrouded in a reverential fear in early times. However, living in the later stages of history, we can no longer swiftly apply the weight of religion to a new prohibition. A free agent can’t have their desires dictated by law; and enforcing the law would be unfeasible due to the unpredictability of determining which marriages should be forbidden. Who can really measure virtue, or even luck, against health, or moral and mental traits against physical ones? Who can weigh probabilities against certainties? There has been both good and bad in the trials of suffering; some diseases, like tuberculosis, can have a refining and softening impact on character. Youth lacks the experience to balance these delicate considerations; parents often don’t think about them, or they consider them too late. They feel distant and might be avoided; changes in location, a new stage of life, or the responsibilities of home could possibly resolve them. So people mistakenly convince themselves when their minds are already made up and their futures are irrevocably intertwined. There is also no real reason to believe that marriages are significantly influenced by these reflections, which seem powerless against the strong pull of personal attachment.

Lastly, no one can have observed the first rising flood of the passions in youth, the difficulty of regulating them, and the effects on the whole mind and nature which follow from them, the stimulus which is given to them by the imagination, without feeling that there is something unsatisfactory in our method of treating them. That the most important influence on human life should be wholly left to chance or shrouded in mystery, and instead of being disciplined or understood, should be required to conform only to an external standard of propriety—cannot be regarded by the philosopher as a safe or satisfactory condition of human things. And still those who have the charge of youth may find a way by watchfulness, by affection, by the manliness and innocence of their own lives, by occasional hints, by general admonitions which every one can apply for himself, to mitigate this terrible evil which eats out the heart of individuals and corrupts the moral sentiments of nations. In no duty towards others is there more need of reticence and self-restraint. So great is the danger lest he who would be the counsellor of another should reveal the secret prematurely, lest he should get another too much into his power; or fix the passing impression of evil by demanding the confession of it.

Lastly, no one can have observed the initial surge of emotions in youth, the challenge of managing them, and the overall impact on the mind and character that follows, along with the spark provided by the imagination, without sensing that our approach to dealing with them is lacking. The fact that such a crucial influence on human life is left to chance or remains a mystery, rather than being guided or understood, and is merely expected to adhere to an external standard of decency—this cannot be seen by the thinker as a secure or satisfactory state of affairs. Yet, those responsible for guiding the young may find ways through attentiveness, care, the integrity and purity of their own lives, occasional suggestions, and general advice that anyone can consider for themselves, to reduce this grave issue that undermines individuals and poisons the moral values of societies. In no obligation to others is there a greater need for discretion and self-control. The risk is too high that someone who wishes to advise another might accidentally expose a secret too soon, gain too much influence over them, or solidify the fleeting impression of wrongdoing by insisting on a confession.

Nor is Plato wrong in asserting that family attachments may interfere with higher aims. If there have been some who ‘to party gave up what was meant for mankind,’ there have certainly been others who to family gave up what was meant for mankind or for their country. The cares of children, the necessity of procuring money for their support, the flatteries of the rich by the poor, the exclusiveness of caste, the pride of birth or wealth, the tendency of family life to divert men from the pursuit of the ideal or the heroic, are as lowering in our own age as in that of Plato. And if we prefer to look at the gentle influences of home, the development of the affections, the amenities of society, the devotion of one member of a family for the good of the others, which form one side of the picture, we must not quarrel with him, or perhaps ought rather to be grateful to him, for having presented to us the reverse. Without attempting to defend Plato on grounds of morality, we may allow that there is an aspect of the world which has not unnaturally led him into error.

Plato isn’t wrong to say that family ties can get in the way of higher goals. While some have sacrificed for their political groups, many have given up what could have benefited humanity or their country for their families. Concerns about children, the need to earn money to support them, the flattery from the rich to the poor, the exclusivity of social classes, the pride in ancestry or wealth, and how family life can distract people from pursuing ideals or heroic efforts are just as limiting today as they were in Plato's time. If we choose to focus on the positive aspects of home life, like emotional growth, social niceties, and one family member’s dedication to the well-being of others, we shouldn’t argue with Plato. Instead, we might be thankful to him for showing us the other side of the story. Without trying to defend Plato’s moral stance, we can acknowledge that he recognized a part of the world that understandably led him to mistake.

We hardly appreciate the power which the idea of the State, like all other abstract ideas, exercised over the mind of Plato. To us the State seems to be built up out of the family, or sometimes to be the framework in which family and social life is contained. But to Plato in his present mood of mind the family is only a disturbing influence which, instead of filling up, tends to disarrange the higher unity of the State. No organization is needed except a political, which, regarded from another point of view, is a military one. The State is all-sufficing for the wants of man, and, like the idea of the Church in later ages, absorbs all other desires and affections. In time of war the thousand citizens are to stand like a rampart impregnable against the world or the Persian host; in time of peace the preparation for war and their duties to the State, which are also their duties to one another, take up their whole life and time. The only other interest which is allowed to them besides that of war, is the interest of philosophy. When they are too old to be soldiers they are to retire from active life and to have a second novitiate of study and contemplation. There is an element of monasticism even in Plato’s communism. If he could have done without children, he might have converted his Republic into a religious order. Neither in the Laws, when the daylight of common sense breaks in upon him, does he retract his error. In the state of which he would be the founder, there is no marrying or giving in marriage: but because of the infirmity of mankind, he condescends to allow the law of nature to prevail.

We barely recognize the influence that the concept of the State, like all abstract ideas, had on Plato's thinking. To us, the State seems to be formed from families or sometimes serves as the structure that supports family and social life. But for Plato, in this particular mindset, the family is merely a disruptive force that, rather than enhancing, tends to disrupt the overarching unity of the State. No organization is needed other than a political one, which, from another perspective, is essentially a military one. The State meets all human needs and, like the concept of the Church in later times, encompasses all other desires and feelings. In wartime, the thousand citizens are to stand like an indestructible barrier against the world or the Persian army; in peacetime, their preparations for war and duties to the State, which also reflect their responsibilities to one another, occupy their entire lives. The only other interest allowed, aside from war, is philosophy. Once they are too old to serve as soldiers, they are to withdraw from active life and engage in a second period of study and contemplation. There’s a hint of monasticism in Plato’s communism. If he could have managed without children, he might have transformed his Republic into a religious order. Even in the Laws, when the clarity of common sense begins to emerge, he doesn’t retract his mistake. In the society he envisions, there’s no marriage or giving in marriage; however, because of human frailty, he concedes to allow natural law to take precedence.

(c) But Plato has an equal, or, in his own estimation, even greater paradox in reserve, which is summed up in the famous text, ‘Until kings are philosophers or philosophers are kings, cities will never cease from ill.’ And by philosophers he explains himself to mean those who are capable of apprehending ideas, especially the idea of good. To the attainment of this higher knowledge the second education is directed. Through a process of training which has already made them good citizens they are now to be made good legislators. We find with some surprise (not unlike the feeling which Aristotle in a well-known passage describes the hearers of Plato’s lectures as experiencing, when they went to a discourse on the idea of good, expecting to be instructed in moral truths, and received instead of them arithmetical and mathematical formulae) that Plato does not propose for his future legislators any study of finance or law or military tactics, but only of abstract mathematics, as a preparation for the still more abstract conception of good. We ask, with Aristotle, What is the use of a man knowing the idea of good, if he does not know what is good for this individual, this state, this condition of society? We cannot understand how Plato’s legislators or guardians are to be fitted for their work of statesmen by the study of the five mathematical sciences. We vainly search in Plato’s own writings for any explanation of this seeming absurdity.

(c) However, Plato has an equal, or in his own view, even greater paradox in store, summed up in the famous phrase, “Until kings are philosophers or philosophers are kings, cities will never cease to suffer.” By “philosophers,” he means those who are capable of understanding ideas, especially the idea of the good. The second education aims to help them achieve this higher knowledge. After training that has already turned them into good citizens, they are now to become good legislators. We find, somewhat surprisingly (similar to how Aristotle describes the feeling of those attending Plato’s lectures, who expected to learn moral truths about the idea of good but instead received arithmetical and mathematical formulas), that Plato does not suggest that his future legislators study finance, law, or military strategy, but only abstract mathematics as preparation for the even more abstract concept of good. We question, as Aristotle does, what use it is for a person to know the idea of good if they don’t know what is good for this individual, this state, or this society. We struggle to understand how Plato’s legislators or guardians will be prepared for their roles as statesmen through the study of the five mathematical sciences. We look in vain through Plato’s own writings for any explanation of this apparent absurdity.

The discovery of a great metaphysical conception seems to ravish the mind with a prophetic consciousness which takes away the power of estimating its value. No metaphysical enquirer has ever fairly criticised his own speculations; in his own judgment they have been above criticism; nor has he understood that what to him seemed to be absolute truth may reappear in the next generation as a form of logic or an instrument of thought. And posterity have also sometimes equally misapprehended the real value of his speculations. They appear to them to have contributed nothing to the stock of human knowledge. The IDEA of good is apt to be regarded by the modern thinker as an unmeaning abstraction; but he forgets that this abstraction is waiting ready for use, and will hereafter be filled up by the divisions of knowledge. When mankind do not as yet know that the world is subject to law, the introduction of the mere conception of law or design or final cause, and the far-off anticipation of the harmony of knowledge, are great steps onward. Even the crude generalization of the unity of all things leads men to view the world with different eyes, and may easily affect their conception of human life and of politics, and also their own conduct and character (Tim). We can imagine how a great mind like that of Pericles might derive elevation from his intercourse with Anaxagoras (Phaedr.). To be struggling towards a higher but unattainable conception is a more favourable intellectual condition than to rest satisfied in a narrow portion of ascertained fact. And the earlier, which have sometimes been the greater ideas of science, are often lost sight of at a later period. How rarely can we say of any modern enquirer in the magnificent language of Plato, that ‘He is the spectator of all time and of all existence!’

The discovery of a profound metaphysical idea seems to captivate the mind with a prophetic awareness that obscures its true value. No metaphysical seeker has ever objectively critiqued their own theories; they believe their insights are beyond criticism, nor do they realize that what they see as absolute truth could later be viewed as just a form of logic or a tool for thought by future generations. Moreover, later generations sometimes completely misunderstand the actual value of these ideas, thinking they contribute nothing to human knowledge. Modern thinkers often see the IDEA of good as an empty abstraction, but they forget that this abstraction is ready to be developed and will eventually be enriched by various fields of knowledge. When humanity is not yet aware that the world operates under law, the mere concept of law, design, or final cause, along with the distant hope of a unified understanding, represents significant progress. Even a simple idea of the unity of all things can lead people to see the world differently and may influence their views on human life, politics, and their own actions and character. We can envision how an exceptional mind like Pericles might be uplifted by engaging with Anaxagoras. Striving toward a higher yet elusive understanding is a more beneficial intellectual state than settling for a narrow grasp of established facts. Additionally, earlier ideas, which were sometimes the most significant in science, are often overlooked in later times. How seldom can we say of any modern seeker, in the eloquent words of Plato, that "They are the observer of all time and of all existence!"

Nor is there anything unnatural in the hasty application of these vast metaphysical conceptions to practical and political life. In the first enthusiasm of ideas men are apt to see them everywhere, and to apply them in the most remote sphere. They do not understand that the experience of ages is required to enable them to fill up ‘the intermediate axioms.’ Plato himself seems to have imagined that the truths of psychology, like those of astronomy and harmonics, would be arrived at by a process of deduction, and that the method which he has pursued in the Fourth Book, of inferring them from experience and the use of language, was imperfect and only provisional. But when, after having arrived at the idea of good, which is the end of the science of dialectic, he is asked, What is the nature, and what are the divisions of the science? He refuses to answer, as if intending by the refusal to intimate that the state of knowledge which then existed was not such as would allow the philosopher to enter into his final rest. The previous sciences must first be studied, and will, we may add, continue to be studied tell the end of time, although in a sense different from any which Plato could have conceived. But we may observe, that while he is aware of the vacancy of his own ideal, he is full of enthusiasm in the contemplation of it. Looking into the orb of light, he sees nothing, but he is warmed and elevated. The Hebrew prophet believed that faith in God would enable him to govern the world; the Greek philosopher imagined that contemplation of the good would make a legislator. There is as much to be filled up in the one case as in the other, and the one mode of conception is to the Israelite what the other is to the Greek. Both find a repose in a divine perfection, which, whether in a more personal or impersonal form, exists without them and independently of them, as well as within them.

There's nothing unnatural about quickly applying these vast metaphysical ideas to practical and political life. In their initial excitement over ideas, people tend to see them everywhere and try to apply them in the most unlikely areas. They often don’t realize that it takes ages of experience to effectively understand the ‘intermediate axioms.’ Plato himself seems to have thought that the truths of psychology, like those of astronomy and harmonics, could be reached through deduction, and that the method he used in the Fourth Book—inferring them from experience and language—was inadequate and only preliminary. But when he arrives at the idea of the good, which is the ultimate goal of dialectic science, and is questioned about the nature and divisions of the science, he declines to answer, possibly suggesting that the level of knowledge at that time was insufficient for the philosopher to find his ultimate peace. The earlier sciences need to be studied first, and we could add that they will continue to be studied until the end of time, although in a way that is different from what Plato could have imagined. However, it’s clear that while he recognizes the emptiness of his own ideal, he is filled with enthusiasm for it. When he gazes into the light, he sees nothing, yet he feels uplifted and inspired. The Hebrew prophet believed that faith in God would help him govern the world; the Greek philosopher thought that contemplating the good would make him a great legislator. There’s as much that needs to be filled in for one as there is for the other, and each perspective is as meaningful to its respective culture. Both seek solace in a divine perfection that exists independently of them, as well as within them.

There is no mention of the idea of good in the Timaeus, nor of the divine Creator of the world in the Republic; and we are naturally led to ask in what relation they stand to one another. Is God above or below the idea of good? Or is the Idea of Good another mode of conceiving God? The latter appears to be the truer answer. To the Greek philosopher the perfection and unity of God was a far higher conception than his personality, which he hardly found a word to express, and which to him would have seemed to be borrowed from mythology. To the Christian, on the other hand, or to the modern thinker in general, it is difficult, if not impossible, to attach reality to what he terms mere abstraction; while to Plato this very abstraction is the truest and most real of all things. Hence, from a difference in forms of thought, Plato appears to be resting on a creation of his own mind only. But if we may be allowed to paraphrase the idea of good by the words ‘intelligent principle of law and order in the universe, embracing equally man and nature,’ we begin to find a meeting-point between him and ourselves.

There’s no mention of the idea of good in the Timaeus, nor of the divine Creator of the world in the Republic; and we naturally want to ask how they relate to each other. Is God above or below the idea of good? Or is the Idea of Good just another way of thinking about God? The latter seems to be the more accurate answer. For the Greek philosopher, the perfection and unity of God was a much higher concept than His personality, which he struggled to put into words and which would have seemed borrowed from mythology. On the other hand, for the Christian, or for modern thinkers in general, it’s hard, if not impossible, to give substance to what they call mere abstraction; while for Plato, this very abstraction is the most real of all things. Therefore, due to different ways of thinking, it seems that Plato is relying on a creation of his own mind. But if we can paraphrase the idea of good as “the intelligent principle of law and order in the universe, encompassing both humanity and nature,” we start to find common ground between him and us.

The question whether the ruler or statesman should be a philosopher is one that has not lost interest in modern times. In most countries of Europe and Asia there has been some one in the course of ages who has truly united the power of command with the power of thought and reflection, as there have been also many false combinations of these qualities. Some kind of speculative power is necessary both in practical and political life; like the rhetorician in the Phaedrus, men require to have a conception of the varieties of human character, and to be raised on great occasions above the commonplaces of ordinary life. Yet the idea of the philosopher-statesman has never been popular with the mass of mankind; partly because he cannot take the world into his confidence or make them understand the motives from which he acts; and also because they are jealous of a power which they do not understand. The revolution which human nature desires to effect step by step in many ages is likely to be precipitated by him in a single year or life. They are afraid that in the pursuit of his greater aims he may disregard the common feelings of humanity, he is too apt to be looking into the distant future or back into the remote past, and unable to see actions or events which, to use an expression of Plato’s ‘are tumbling out at his feet.’ Besides, as Plato would say, there are other corruptions of these philosophical statesmen. Either ‘the native hue of resolution is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,’ and at the moment when action above all things is required he is undecided, or general principles are enunciated by him in order to cover some change of policy; or his ignorance of the world has made him more easily fall a prey to the arts of others; or in some cases he has been converted into a courtier, who enjoys the luxury of holding liberal opinions, but was never known to perform a liberal action. No wonder that mankind have been in the habit of calling statesmen of this class pedants, sophisters, doctrinaires, visionaries. For, as we may be allowed to say, a little parodying the words of Plato, ‘they have seen bad imitations of the philosopher-statesman.’ But a man in whom the power of thought and action are perfectly balanced, equal to the present, reaching forward to the future, ‘such a one,’ ruling in a constitutional state, ‘they have never seen.’

The question of whether a ruler or statesman should also be a philosopher is still relevant today. Across Europe and Asia, there have been individuals throughout history who successfully combined the ability to lead with deep thought and reflection, as well as many false examples of this combination. Some level of critical thinking is essential in practical and political life; like the rhetorician in the Phaedrus, people need to understand different human characteristics and be elevated above the ordinary during significant moments. However, the idea of the philosopher-statesman has never been popular among the general public, partly because he cannot share his motives or make them understood, and also due to their jealousy of a power they can’t grasp. The gradual change in human nature that people desire to see over many ages can often be accelerated by him in just a year or a lifetime. There’s a fear that, in chasing his higher goals, he might overlook common human feelings; he tends to be focused on the distant future or the far-off past, unable to notice immediate actions or events that, as Plato would say, "are tumbling out at his feet." Furthermore, as Plato might argue, there are other flaws among these philosophical statesmen. Either their decisive nature gets clouded by overthinking, leaving them indecisive when action is critical; or they state general principles merely to disguise a shift in policy; or their lack of worldly experience makes them susceptible to manipulation by others; or in some instances, they become sycophants, enjoying the luxury of holding progressive views without ever taking action. It’s no surprise that people have often labeled such statesmen as pedants, sophists, doctrinaires, and dreamers. For, as we might humorously paraphrase Plato, "they have encountered poor imitations of the philosopher-statesman." Yet, a person who perfectly balances thought and action, being engaged in the present while looking toward the future, “such a one,” ruling in a constitutional state, “has yet to be seen.”

But as the philosopher is apt to fail in the routine of political life, so the ordinary statesman is also apt to fail in extraordinary crises. When the face of the world is beginning to alter, and thunder is heard in the distance, he is still guided by his old maxims, and is the slave of his inveterate party prejudices; he cannot perceive the signs of the times; instead of looking forward he looks back; he learns nothing and forgets nothing; with ‘wise saws and modern instances’ he would stem the rising tide of revolution. He lives more and more within the circle of his own party, as the world without him becomes stronger. This seems to be the reason why the old order of things makes so poor a figure when confronted with the new, why churches can never reform, why most political changes are made blindly and convulsively. The great crises in the history of nations have often been met by an ecclesiastical positiveness, and a more obstinate reassertion of principles which have lost their hold upon a nation. The fixed ideas of a reactionary statesman may be compared to madness; they grow upon him, and he becomes possessed by them; no judgement of others is ever admitted by him to be weighed in the balance against his own.

But just as a philosopher often struggles with the everyday realities of politics, an ordinary politician frequently stumbles during extraordinary crises. When the world is starting to change and you can hear thunder in the distance, he continues to rely on his old beliefs and is trapped by his stubborn party biases. He can't see the signs of the times; instead of looking ahead, he looks back. He learns nothing and forgets nothing; with “wise sayings and current examples,” he tries to hold back the rising tide of revolution. He increasingly confines himself within the boundaries of his own party, while the outside world grows stronger. This seems to explain why the old ways struggle so much when faced with the new, why churches can’t reform, and why most political changes happen blindly and chaotically. Major national crises have often been met with a dogmatic stance from the church and a stubborn reassertion of principles that have lost their relevance. The rigid beliefs of a reactionary politician can be likened to madness; they consume him, and he becomes obsessed with them; he never considers anyone else's judgment as equal to his own.

(d) Plato, labouring under what, to modern readers, appears to have been a confusion of ideas, assimilates the state to the individual, and fails to distinguish Ethics from Politics. He thinks that to be most of a state which is most like one man, and in which the citizens have the greatest uniformity of character. He does not see that the analogy is partly fallacious, and that the will or character of a state or nation is really the balance or rather the surplus of individual wills, which are limited by the condition of having to act in common. The movement of a body of men can never have the pliancy or facility of a single man; the freedom of the individual, which is always limited, becomes still more straitened when transferred to a nation. The powers of action and feeling are necessarily weaker and more balanced when they are diffused through a community; whence arises the often discussed question, ‘Can a nation, like an individual, have a conscience?’ We hesitate to say that the characters of nations are nothing more than the sum of the characters of the individuals who compose them; because there may be tendencies in individuals which react upon one another. A whole nation may be wiser than any one man in it; or may be animated by some common opinion or feeling which could not equally have affected the mind of a single person, or may have been inspired by a leader of genius to perform acts more than human. Plato does not appear to have analysed the complications which arise out of the collective action of mankind. Neither is he capable of seeing that analogies, though specious as arguments, may often have no foundation in fact, or of distinguishing between what is intelligible or vividly present to the mind, and what is true. In this respect he is far below Aristotle, who is comparatively seldom imposed upon by false analogies. He cannot disentangle the arts from the virtues—at least he is always arguing from one to the other. His notion of music is transferred from harmony of sounds to harmony of life: in this he is assisted by the ambiguities of language as well as by the prevalence of Pythagorean notions. And having once assimilated the state to the individual, he imagines that he will find the succession of states paralleled in the lives of individuals.

(d) Plato, grappling with what seems like a muddle of ideas to modern readers, equates the state with the individual and does not clearly differentiate Ethics from Politics. He believes that the best state is the one that resembles a single person the most, where the citizens share a high degree of uniformity in their character. He fails to recognize that this analogy has flaws and that the will or character of a state or nation is actually the sum or, more accurately, the excess of individual wills, which are constrained by the need to act together. The actions of a group of people can never be as flexible or spontaneous as those of an individual; the freedom of the individual, which is always limited, becomes even more restricted when applied to a nation. The abilities to act and feel are inevitably weaker and more balanced when spread across a community, leading to the often-debated question, ‘Can a nation, like an individual, have a conscience?’ We hesitate to claim that the characteristics of nations are simply the sum of the traits of the individuals within them because there can be influences among individuals that affect each other. A whole nation might possess wisdom greater than any one person in it; or be driven by a shared opinion or feeling that couldn’t have equally influenced a single person, or might be inspired by a brilliant leader to achieve extraordinary actions. Plato doesn’t seem to have examined the complexities that arise from collective human action. He also struggles to see that while analogies may seem convincing as arguments, they often lack a basis in reality, and he cannot differentiate between what is understandable or clearly present in thought and what is actually true. In this regard, he falls short compared to Aristotle, who is less easily swayed by misleading analogies. He cannot separate the arts from the virtues—at least he always connects one to the other. His concept of music shifts from the harmony of sounds to the harmony of life: this shift is supported by linguistic ambiguities and the dominance of Pythagorean ideas. And once he equates the state to the individual, he believes he can find a sequence of states mirrored in the lives of individuals.

Still, through this fallacious medium, a real enlargement of ideas is attained. When the virtues as yet presented no distinct conception to the mind, a great advance was made by the comparison of them with the arts; for virtue is partly art, and has an outward form as well as an inward principle. The harmony of music affords a lively image of the harmonies of the world and of human life, and may be regarded as a splendid illustration which was naturally mistaken for a real analogy. In the same way the identification of ethics with politics has a tendency to give definiteness to ethics, and also to elevate and ennoble men’s notions of the aims of government and of the duties of citizens; for ethics from one point of view may be conceived as an idealized law and politics; and politics, as ethics reduced to the conditions of human society. There have been evils which have arisen out of the attempt to identify them, and this has led to the separation or antagonism of them, which has been introduced by modern political writers. But we may likewise feel that something has been lost in their separation, and that the ancient philosophers who estimated the moral and intellectual wellbeing of mankind first, and the wealth of nations and individuals second, may have a salutary influence on the speculations of modern times. Many political maxims originate in a reaction against an opposite error; and when the errors against which they were directed have passed away, they in turn become errors.

Still, through this misleading approach, a true expansion of ideas is achieved. When the virtues didn't yet have a clear concept in the mind, a significant progress was made by comparing them with the arts; because virtue is partly an art and has an outward form as well as an inner principle. The harmony of music provides a vivid image of the harmonies of the world and of human life, and can be seen as a brilliant illustration that was naturally mistaken for a real comparison. Similarly, linking ethics with politics tends to clarify ethics and also to elevate and enhance people's ideas about the goals of government and the responsibilities of citizens; because ethics, from one perspective, can be seen as an idealized law and politics; and politics can be viewed as ethics shaped by the realities of human society. There have been problems that arose from trying to merge them, leading to the separation or conflict introduced by modern political writers. However, we might also feel that something valuable has been lost in their separation, and that the ancient philosophers who prioritized the moral and intellectual well-being of humanity over the wealth of nations and individuals could positively influence modern thoughts. Many political principles come from a reaction against an opposing mistake; and when the mistakes they were aimed at have faded, they too become mistakes.

3. Plato’s views of education are in several respects remarkable; like the rest of the Republic they are partly Greek and partly ideal, beginning with the ordinary curriculum of the Greek youth, and extending to after-life. Plato is the first writer who distinctly says that education is to comprehend the whole of life, and to be a preparation for another in which education begins again. This is the continuous thread which runs through the Republic, and which more than any other of his ideas admits of an application to modern life.

3. Plato’s views on education are quite striking in several ways; like the rest of the Republic, they blend Greek tradition with idealism, starting with the standard curriculum for Greek youth and extending into the afterlife. Plato is the first author to clearly state that education should encompass the entirety of life and serve as preparation for another life where education begins anew. This ongoing theme is woven throughout the Republic and, more than any of his other ideas, has relevance for modern life.

He has long given up the notion that virtue cannot be taught; and he is disposed to modify the thesis of the Protagoras, that the virtues are one and not many. He is not unwilling to admit the sensible world into his scheme of truth. Nor does he assert in the Republic the involuntariness of vice, which is maintained by him in the Timaeus, Sophist, and Laws (Protag., Apol., Gorg.). Nor do the so-called Platonic ideas recovered from a former state of existence affect his theory of mental improvement. Still we observe in him the remains of the old Socratic doctrine, that true knowledge must be elicited from within, and is to be sought for in ideas, not in particulars of sense. Education, as he says, will implant a principle of intelligence which is better than ten thousand eyes. The paradox that the virtues are one, and the kindred notion that all virtue is knowledge, are not entirely renounced; the first is seen in the supremacy given to justice over the rest; the second in the tendency to absorb the moral virtues in the intellectual, and to centre all goodness in the contemplation of the idea of good. The world of sense is still depreciated and identified with opinion, though admitted to be a shadow of the true. In the Republic he is evidently impressed with the conviction that vice arises chiefly from ignorance and may be cured by education; the multitude are hardly to be deemed responsible for what they do. A faint allusion to the doctrine of reminiscence occurs in the Tenth Book; but Plato’s views of education have no more real connection with a previous state of existence than our own; he only proposes to elicit from the mind that which is there already. Education is represented by him, not as the filling of a vessel, but as the turning the eye of the soul towards the light.

He has long stopped believing that virtue can't be taught; he's open to adjusting Protagoras' idea that virtues are one instead of many. He's willing to include the sensible world in his understanding of truth. He doesn't claim in the Republic that vice is involuntary, which he argues in the Timaeus, Sophist, and Laws (Protag., Apol., Gorg.). The so-called Platonic ideas brought back from a past existence don't change his theory of mental growth. Still, we can see hints of the old Socratic belief that true knowledge must come from within and is found in ideas, not in sensory details. Education, as he says, will instill a sense of intelligence that's better than having ten thousand eyes. The idea that virtues are one, along with the related thought that all virtue is knowledge, isn't completely abandoned; the first is reflected in the priority given to justice above all else, while the second is seen in the tendency to merge moral virtues with intellectual ones and center goodness around the idea of the good. The world of the senses is still seen as lower and tied to opinion, even though it’s acknowledged as just a shadow of the true. In the Republic, he clearly believes that vice mainly comes from ignorance and can be fixed through education; most people can't really be held accountable for their actions. A slight reference to the idea of reminiscence appears in the Tenth Book; however, Plato's thoughts on education aren't actually connected to a past existence any more than ours are; he simply aims to draw out what is already in the mind. He describes education not as pouring something into a vessel but as turning the eye of the soul toward the light.

He treats first of music or literature, which he divides into true and false, and then goes on to gymnastics; of infancy in the Republic he takes no notice, though in the Laws he gives sage counsels about the nursing of children and the management of the mothers, and would have an education which is even prior to birth. But in the Republic he begins with the age at which the child is capable of receiving ideas, and boldly asserts, in language which sounds paradoxical to modern ears, that he must be taught the false before he can learn the true. The modern and ancient philosophical world are not agreed about truth and falsehood; the one identifies truth almost exclusively with fact, the other with ideas. This is the difference between ourselves and Plato, which is, however, partly a difference of words. For we too should admit that a child must receive many lessons which he imperfectly understands; he must be taught some things in a figure only, some too which he can hardly be expected to believe when he grows older; but we should limit the use of fiction by the necessity of the case. Plato would draw the line differently; according to him the aim of early education is not truth as a matter of fact, but truth as a matter of principle; the child is to be taught first simple religious truths, and then simple moral truths, and insensibly to learn the lesson of good manners and good taste. He would make an entire reformation of the old mythology; like Xenophanes and Heracleitus he is sensible of the deep chasm which separates his own age from Homer and Hesiod, whom he quotes and invests with an imaginary authority, but only for his own purposes. The lusts and treacheries of the gods are to be banished; the terrors of the world below are to be dispelled; the misbehaviour of the Homeric heroes is not to be a model for youth. But there is another strain heard in Homer which may teach our youth endurance; and something may be learnt in medicine from the simple practice of the Homeric age. The principles on which religion is to be based are two only: first, that God is true; secondly, that he is good. Modern and Christian writers have often fallen short of these; they can hardly be said to have gone beyond them.

He first discusses music and literature, dividing them into true and false, and then moves on to gymnastics. He doesn’t address infancy in the Republic, but in the Laws, he gives wise advice about nursing children and managing mothers, advocating for an education that starts even before birth. In the Republic, he begins with the age at which a child can grasp ideas and boldly claims, in words that sound paradoxical today, that he must first be taught the false before he can learn the true. The modern and ancient philosophical worlds don’t agree on truth and falsehood; the former links truth almost solely with fact, while the latter connects it with ideas. This is the key difference between us and Plato, which is, however, partly a matter of wording. For we too would accept that a child must learn many lessons that he doesn't fully understand; he must be taught some things figuratively, and some he might find hard to believe as he grows up; but we would limit the use of fiction based on necessity. Plato would draw the line differently; for him, the goal of early education isn’t truth as a fact, but truth as a principle. The child should first learn simple religious truths, then simple moral truths, while gradually absorbing lessons on good manners and good taste. He would completely reform the old mythology; like Xenophanes and Heraclitus, he recognizes the significant gap between his own time and that of Homer and Hesiod, whom he quotes and gives imaginary authority, but only for his own goals. The desires and betrayals of the gods should be eliminated; the fears of the underworld should be dispelled; the misbehavior of the Homeric heroes should not serve as a model for youth. However, there is another message in Homer that may teach our youth endurance; and some medical knowledge can be drawn from the simple practices of the Homeric age. The principles that religion should be based on are only two: first, that God is true; and second, that He is good. Modern and Christian writers have often fallen short of these; they can hardly be said to have exceeded them.

The young are to be brought up in happy surroundings, out of the way of sights or sounds which may hurt the character or vitiate the taste. They are to live in an atmosphere of health; the breeze is always to be wafting to them the impressions of truth and goodness. Could such an education be realized, or if our modern religious education could be bound up with truth and virtue and good manners and good taste, that would be the best hope of human improvement. Plato, like ourselves, is looking forward to changes in the moral and religious world, and is preparing for them. He recognizes the danger of unsettling young men’s minds by sudden changes of laws and principles, by destroying the sacredness of one set of ideas when there is nothing else to take their place. He is afraid too of the influence of the drama, on the ground that it encourages false sentiment, and therefore he would not have his children taken to the theatre; he thinks that the effect on the spectators is bad, and on the actors still worse. His idea of education is that of harmonious growth, in which are insensibly learnt the lessons of temperance and endurance, and the body and mind develope in equal proportions. The first principle which runs through all art and nature is simplicity; this also is to be the rule of human life.

The young should be raised in happy environments, away from sights or sounds that could harm their character or taste. They should grow up with a sense of health; the breeze should always bring them experiences of truth and goodness. If such an education could be achieved, or if our modern religious education could be intertwined with truth, virtue, good manners, and good taste, it would be the best hope for human improvement. Like us, Plato looks forward to changes in the moral and religious landscape and is preparing for them. He understands the danger of disturbing young people's minds with sudden changes in laws and principles, which can undermine the importance of established ideas when there’s nothing to replace them. He’s also concerned about the influence of theater, believing it promotes false feelings, so he wouldn’t want his children to go to the theater; he thinks the impact on audiences is negative and even worse for the actors. His vision of education is one of balanced growth, where lessons of moderation and resilience are learned naturally, allowing both the body and mind to develop equally. The guiding principle in all art and nature is simplicity; this should also be the foundation of human life.

The second stage of education is gymnastic, which answers to the period of muscular growth and development. The simplicity which is enforced in music is extended to gymnastic; Plato is aware that the training of the body may be inconsistent with the training of the mind, and that bodily exercise may be easily overdone. Excessive training of the body is apt to give men a headache or to render them sleepy at a lecture on philosophy, and this they attribute not to the true cause, but to the nature of the subject. Two points are noticeable in Plato’s treatment of gymnastic:—First, that the time of training is entirely separated from the time of literary education. He seems to have thought that two things of an opposite and different nature could not be learnt at the same time. Here we can hardly agree with him; and, if we may judge by experience, the effect of spending three years between the ages of fourteen and seventeen in mere bodily exercise would be far from improving to the intellect. Secondly, he affirms that music and gymnastic are not, as common opinion is apt to imagine, intended, the one for the cultivation of the mind and the other of the body, but that they are both equally designed for the improvement of the mind. The body, in his view, is the servant of the mind; the subjection of the lower to the higher is for the advantage of both. And doubtless the mind may exercise a very great and paramount influence over the body, if exerted not at particular moments and by fits and starts, but continuously, in making preparation for the whole of life. Other Greek writers saw the mischievous tendency of Spartan discipline (Arist. Pol; Thuc.). But only Plato recognized the fundamental error on which the practice was based.

The second stage of education is gymnastics, which corresponds to the time of physical growth and development. The simplicity emphasized in music extends to gymnastics; Plato recognizes that training the body can conflict with training the mind, and that too much physical exercise can lead to headaches or make people drowsy during a philosophy lecture, which they mistakenly attribute to the subject itself rather than the overexertion. Two key points stand out in Plato's approach to gymnastics: First, he insists that training time is completely separate from literary education. He seems to believe that two things of such different natures can’t be learned simultaneously. Here, we might disagree with him; based on experience, spending three years between the ages of fourteen and seventeen focused solely on physical exercise would likely not benefit the intellect at all. Second, he claims that music and gymnastics are not, as many believe, meant to develop the mind and body separately, but that both are intended for the improvement of the mind. In his view, the body serves the mind; the subordination of the lower to the higher benefits both. Moreover, the mind can exert significant and continuous influence over the body if applied consistently rather than just in bursts, preparing for life as a whole. Other Greek writers noted the harmful aspects of Spartan discipline (Arist. Pol; Thuc.), but only Plato identified the fundamental flaw on which this practice was built.

The subject of gymnastic leads Plato to the sister subject of medicine, which he further illustrates by the parallel of law. The modern disbelief in medicine has led in this, as in some other departments of knowledge, to a demand for greater simplicity; physicians are becoming aware that they often make diseases ‘greater and more complicated’ by their treatment of them (Rep.). In two thousand years their art has made but slender progress; what they have gained in the analysis of the parts is in a great degree lost by their feebler conception of the human frame as a whole. They have attended more to the cure of diseases than to the conditions of health; and the improvements in medicine have been more than counterbalanced by the disuse of regular training. Until lately they have hardly thought of air and water, the importance of which was well understood by the ancients; as Aristotle remarks, ‘Air and water, being the elements which we most use, have the greatest effect upon health’ (Polit.). For ages physicians have been under the dominion of prejudices which have only recently given way; and now there are as many opinions in medicine as in theology, and an equal degree of scepticism and some want of toleration about both. Plato has several good notions about medicine; according to him, ‘the eye cannot be cured without the rest of the body, nor the body without the mind’ (Charm.). No man of sense, he says in the Timaeus, would take physic; and we heartily sympathize with him in the Laws when he declares that ‘the limbs of the rustic worn with toil will derive more benefit from warm baths than from the prescriptions of a not over wise doctor.’ But we can hardly praise him when, in obedience to the authority of Homer, he depreciates diet, or approve of the inhuman spirit in which he would get rid of invalid and useless lives by leaving them to die. He does not seem to have considered that the ‘bridle of Theages’ might be accompanied by qualities which were of far more value to the State than the health or strength of the citizens; or that the duty of taking care of the helpless might be an important element of education in a State. The physician himself (this is a delicate and subtle observation) should not be a man in robust health; he should have, in modern phraseology, a nervous temperament; he should have experience of disease in his own person, in order that his powers of observation may be quickened in the case of others.

The topic of gymnastics leads Plato to the related topic of medicine, which he further illustrates through a comparison with law. Today's skepticism about medicine has led, like in some other areas of knowledge, to a demand for more straightforward approaches; doctors are realizing that they often make illnesses 'worse and more complicated' through their treatments (Rep.). In two thousand years, their practice has made only minimal progress; what they have achieved in understanding the individual parts is largely offset by their weaker concept of the human body as a whole. They have focused more on treating illnesses than on promoting health; and the advances in medicine have been more than canceled out by the decline in regular exercise. Until recently, they hardly considered the significance of air and water, which the ancients knew to be crucial; as Aristotle notes, 'Air and water, being the elements we use the most, have the greatest impact on health' (Polit.). For centuries, doctors have been influenced by biases that have only recently begun to fade; now there are as many differing opinions in medicine as there are in theology, with a similar level of skepticism and some lack of tolerance in both fields. Plato has several insightful ideas about medicine; according to him, 'the eye cannot be cured without the rest of the body, nor the body without the mind' (Charm.). No sensible person, he states in the Timaeus, would take medicine; and we fully agree with him in the Laws when he claims that 'the limbs of the laborer, worn out from work, will benefit more from warm baths than from the prescriptions of a not particularly wise doctor.' However, we can hardly commend him when, following Homer's authority, he downplays the importance of diet or support the cruel view he holds regarding allowing sick and unproductive lives to just perish. He does not seem to have considered that the 'bridle of Theages' might possess qualities that are of far greater value to the state than the health or strength of its citizens; or that caring for the helpless could be an essential aspect of education in a society. The physician himself (this is a nuanced and subtle point) should not be someone in perfect health; he should have, in contemporary terms, a sensitive temperament; he should have personally experienced illness so that his observational skills may be sharpened when treating others.

The perplexity of medicine is paralleled by the perplexity of law; in which, again, Plato would have men follow the golden rule of simplicity. Greater matters are to be determined by the legislator or by the oracle of Delphi, lesser matters are to be left to the temporary regulation of the citizens themselves. Plato is aware that laissez faire is an important element of government. The diseases of a State are like the heads of a hydra; they multiply when they are cut off. The true remedy for them is not extirpation but prevention. And the way to prevent them is to take care of education, and education will take care of all the rest. So in modern times men have often felt that the only political measure worth having—the only one which would produce any certain or lasting effect, was a measure of national education. And in our own more than in any previous age the necessity has been recognized of restoring the ever-increasing confusion of law to simplicity and common sense.

The complexity of medicine is similar to the complexity of law; in which, again, Plato believed people should stick to the simple rule of doing what’s right. Bigger issues should be handled by lawmakers or the oracle of Delphi, while smaller issues can be managed by the citizens themselves. Plato recognized that a hands-off approach is an important part of governance. The problems of a State resemble the heads of a hydra; they multiply when you try to get rid of them. The real solution isn’t to eliminate them but to prevent them. And the way to prevent them is by focusing on education, because education will take care of everything else. In modern times, people often feel that the only political action worth pursuing—the only one that would bring about certain or lasting change—was a focus on national education. Now more than ever, there is a recognized need to restore the growing chaos of law to simplicity and common sense.

When the training in music and gymnastic is completed, there follows the first stage of active and public life. But soon education is to begin again from a new point of view. In the interval between the Fourth and Seventh Books we have discussed the nature of knowledge, and have thence been led to form a higher conception of what was required of us. For true knowledge, according to Plato, is of abstractions, and has to do, not with particulars or individuals, but with universals only; not with the beauties of poetry, but with the ideas of philosophy. And the great aim of education is the cultivation of the habit of abstraction. This is to be acquired through the study of the mathematical sciences. They alone are capable of giving ideas of relation, and of arousing the dormant energies of thought.

Once the training in music and gymnastics is done, the first stage of active public life begins. But soon, education has to start up again from a new angle. In the gap between the Fourth and Seventh Books, we've discussed the nature of knowledge and have been led to develop a deeper understanding of what is expected of us. According to Plato, true knowledge is about abstractions and focuses not on specifics or individuals but solely on universals; not on the beauty of poetry but on the concepts of philosophy. The main goal of education is to cultivate the ability to think abstractly. This can be achieved through studying the mathematical sciences, as they are uniquely capable of providing ideas about relationships and stimulating the dormant powers of thought.

Mathematics in the age of Plato comprehended a very small part of that which is now included in them; but they bore a much larger proportion to the sum of human knowledge. They were the only organon of thought which the human mind at that time possessed, and the only measure by which the chaos of particulars could be reduced to rule and order. The faculty which they trained was naturally at war with the poetical or imaginative; and hence to Plato, who is everywhere seeking for abstractions and trying to get rid of the illusions of sense, nearly the whole of education is contained in them. They seemed to have an inexhaustible application, partly because their true limits were not yet understood. These Plato himself is beginning to investigate; though not aware that number and figure are mere abstractions of sense, he recognizes that the forms used by geometry are borrowed from the sensible world. He seeks to find the ultimate ground of mathematical ideas in the idea of good, though he does not satisfactorily explain the connexion between them; and in his conception of the relation of ideas to numbers, he falls very far short of the definiteness attributed to him by Aristotle (Met.). But if he fails to recognize the true limits of mathematics, he also reaches a point beyond them; in his view, ideas of number become secondary to a higher conception of knowledge. The dialectician is as much above the mathematician as the mathematician is above the ordinary man. The one, the self-proving, the good which is the higher sphere of dialectic, is the perfect truth to which all things ascend, and in which they finally repose.

Mathematics in Plato's time included only a small part of what we now know, but it made up a much larger portion of overall human knowledge. It was the only tool for thought that people had then and the only way to bring structure and order to the overwhelming chaos of details. The skills it developed were naturally in conflict with poetic or imaginative thinking; for Plato, who constantly searched for abstract concepts and aimed to overcome sensory illusions, most education was wrapped up in mathematics. They seemed to have endless applications since their true boundaries weren’t yet understood. Plato started to explore those boundaries himself; although he didn’t realize that number and shape are just abstractions from our senses, he understood that the geometric forms come from the physical world. He tried to find the fundamental basis of mathematical ideas in the concept of the good, though he didn’t clearly explain the connection between the two. In his understanding of how ideas relate to numbers, he fell short of the clarity that Aristotle later attributed to him. However, even though he didn’t fully grasp the actual limits of mathematics, he also reached beyond them; he believed the concepts of numbers were secondary to a higher understanding of knowledge. The dialectician is elevated above the mathematician just as the mathematician is above the average person. The self-evident, the good—the higher realm of dialectic—is the ultimate truth that everything strives for and rests in.

This self-proving unity or idea of good is a mere vision of which no distinct explanation can be given, relative only to a particular stage in Greek philosophy. It is an abstraction under which no individuals are comprehended, a whole which has no parts (Arist., Nic. Eth.). The vacancy of such a form was perceived by Aristotle, but not by Plato. Nor did he recognize that in the dialectical process are included two or more methods of investigation which are at variance with each other. He did not see that whether he took the longer or the shorter road, no advance could be made in this way. And yet such visions often have an immense effect; for although the method of science cannot anticipate science, the idea of science, not as it is, but as it will be in the future, is a great and inspiring principle. In the pursuit of knowledge we are always pressing forward to something beyond us; and as a false conception of knowledge, for example the scholastic philosophy, may lead men astray during many ages, so the true ideal, though vacant, may draw all their thoughts in a right direction. It makes a great difference whether the general expectation of knowledge, as this indefinite feeling may be termed, is based upon a sound judgment. For mankind may often entertain a true conception of what knowledge ought to be when they have but a slender experience of facts. The correlation of the sciences, the consciousness of the unity of nature, the idea of classification, the sense of proportion, the unwillingness to stop short of certainty or to confound probability with truth, are important principles of the higher education. Although Plato could tell us nothing, and perhaps knew that he could tell us nothing, of the absolute truth, he has exercised an influence on the human mind which even at the present day is not exhausted; and political and social questions may yet arise in which the thoughts of Plato may be read anew and receive a fresh meaning.

This self-evident unity or concept of good is just a vision that can't be clearly explained, relevant only to a certain phase in Greek philosophy. It's an abstraction that doesn't encompass any individuals, a whole without any parts (Arist., Nic. Eth.). Aristotle recognized the emptiness of such a concept, while Plato did not. He also failed to see that the dialectical process includes two or more conflicting methods of inquiry. He didn't realize that regardless of whether he chose the longer or shorter path, no progress could be made this way. However, such visions can have a huge impact; even though the method of science can't predict science, the idea of science—not as it currently is, but as it will be in the future—is a powerful and motivating principle. In our quest for knowledge, we are always striving for something beyond our reach; and just as a misguided view of knowledge, like scholastic philosophy, can mislead people for ages, the true ideal, although empty, can steer their thoughts in the right direction. It matters greatly whether this general expectation of knowledge, which we might call an indefinite feeling, is grounded in sound judgment. People can often have a true idea of what knowledge should be, even if their actual experience of facts is minimal. Connections between the sciences, awareness of nature's unity, the idea of classification, a sense of proportion, and the determination to not settle for mere probability when seeking truth are all crucial principles of higher education. Although Plato might not have been able to tell us anything definitive, and perhaps knew that he couldn't, his influence on the human mind is still significant today; political and social issues may arise where Plato's thoughts can be reinterpreted and gain new meaning.

The Idea of good is so called only in the Republic, but there are traces of it in other dialogues of Plato. It is a cause as well as an idea, and from this point of view may be compared with the creator of the Timaeus, who out of his goodness created all things. It corresponds to a certain extent with the modern conception of a law of nature, or of a final cause, or of both in one, and in this regard may be connected with the measure and symmetry of the Philebus. It is represented in the Symposium under the aspect of beauty, and is supposed to be attained there by stages of initiation, as here by regular gradations of knowledge. Viewed subjectively, it is the process or science of dialectic. This is the science which, according to the Phaedrus, is the true basis of rhetoric, which alone is able to distinguish the natures and classes of men and things; which divides a whole into the natural parts, and reunites the scattered parts into a natural or organized whole; which defines the abstract essences or universal ideas of all things, and connects them; which pierces the veil of hypotheses and reaches the final cause or first principle of all; which regards the sciences in relation to the idea of good. This ideal science is the highest process of thought, and may be described as the soul conversing with herself or holding communion with eternal truth and beauty, and in another form is the everlasting question and answer—the ceaseless interrogative of Socrates. The dialogues of Plato are themselves examples of the nature and method of dialectic. Viewed objectively, the idea of good is a power or cause which makes the world without us correspond with the world within. Yet this world without us is still a world of ideas. With Plato the investigation of nature is another department of knowledge, and in this he seeks to attain only probable conclusions (Timaeus).

The concept of the good is only mentioned in the Republic, but you can find hints of it in other dialogues by Plato. It serves both as a cause and an idea and can be compared to the creator in the Timaeus, who made everything out of goodness. It somewhat aligns with the modern idea of a law of nature or a final cause, or a combination of both, and in this sense, it connects with the measure and symmetry discussed in the Philebus. In the Symposium, it is portrayed as beauty, and it's thought to be reached through stages of initiation, similar to the gradual steps of acquiring knowledge. Subjectively, it's about the process or science of dialectic. This science, as stated in the Phaedrus, forms the true foundation of rhetoric. It's capable of distinguishing the different natures and categories of people and things, dividing a whole into its natural parts, and bringing those scattered parts back together into an organized whole. It defines the abstract essences or universal ideas of everything and connects them; it cuts through assumptions to get to the final cause or first principle of all; and it considers the sciences in relation to the idea of the good. This ideal science represents the highest form of thinking and can be described as the soul engaging in self-reflection or connecting with eternal truth and beauty. In another sense, it represents the timeless question and answer—the ongoing inquiry of Socrates. The dialogues of Plato serve as illustrations of the nature and method of dialectic. Objectively speaking, the idea of the good is a power or cause that aligns our external world with our inner world. However, the external world remains a world of ideas. For Plato, exploring nature is a separate area of knowledge, where he aims to draw only probable conclusions (Timaeus).

If we ask whether this science of dialectic which Plato only half explains to us is more akin to logic or to metaphysics, the answer is that in his mind the two sciences are not as yet distinguished, any more than the subjective and objective aspects of the world and of man, which German philosophy has revealed to us. Nor has he determined whether his science of dialectic is at rest or in motion, concerned with the contemplation of absolute being, or with a process of development and evolution. Modern metaphysics may be described as the science of abstractions, or as the science of the evolution of thought; modern logic, when passing beyond the bounds of mere Aristotelian forms, may be defined as the science of method. The germ of both of them is contained in the Platonic dialectic; all metaphysicians have something in common with the ideas of Plato; all logicians have derived something from the method of Plato. The nearest approach in modern philosophy to the universal science of Plato, is to be found in the Hegelian ‘succession of moments in the unity of the idea.’ Plato and Hegel alike seem to have conceived the world as the correlation of abstractions; and not impossibly they would have understood one another better than any of their commentators understand them (Swift’s Voyage to Laputa. ‘Having a desire to see those ancients who were most renowned for wit and learning, I set apart one day on purpose. I proposed that Homer and Aristotle might appear at the head of all their commentators; but these were so numerous that some hundreds were forced to attend in the court and outward rooms of the palace. I knew, and could distinguish these two heroes, at first sight, not only from the crowd, but from each other. Homer was the taller and comelier person of the two, walked very erect for one of his age, and his eyes were the most quick and piercing I ever beheld. Aristotle stooped much, and made use of a staff. His visage was meagre, his hair lank and thin, and his voice hollow. I soon discovered that both of them were perfect strangers to the rest of the company, and had never seen or heard of them before. And I had a whisper from a ghost, who shall be nameless, “That these commentators always kept in the most distant quarters from their principals, in the lower world, through a consciousness of shame and guilt, because they had so horribly misrepresented the meaning of these authors to posterity.” I introduced Didymus and Eustathius to Homer, and prevailed on him to treat them better than perhaps they deserved, for he soon found they wanted a genius to enter into the spirit of a poet. But Aristotle was out of all patience with the account I gave him of Scotus and Ramus, as I presented them to him; and he asked them “whether the rest of the tribe were as great dunces as themselves?”’). There is, however, a difference between them: for whereas Hegel is thinking of all the minds of men as one mind, which developes the stages of the idea in different countries or at different times in the same country, with Plato these gradations are regarded only as an order of thought or ideas; the history of the human mind had not yet dawned upon him.

If we ask whether the science of dialectic that Plato only partially explains is closer to logic or metaphysics, the answer is that, in his view, the two disciplines aren’t yet separate. This is similar to how he sees the subjective and objective aspects of the world and humanity, which German philosophy has uncovered. He also hasn’t figured out whether his dialectic science is static or dynamic, focused on contemplating absolute being or on a process of development and evolution. Modern metaphysics can be described as the study of abstractions or the evolution of thought, while modern logic, when it goes beyond mere Aristotelian forms, can be defined as the science of method. The essence of both is found in Platonic dialectic; all metaphysicians share something in common with Plato’s ideas, and all logicians have learned from his method. The closest thing in modern philosophy to Plato's universal science is Hegel's concept of the 'succession of moments in the unity of the idea.' Both Plato and Hegel seem to have viewed the world as a connection of abstractions; it’s possible that they would have understood each other better than their commentators do (Swift’s Voyage to Laputa. ‘Having a desire to see those ancients who were most renowned for wit and learning, I set apart one day on purpose. I proposed that Homer and Aristotle might appear at the head of all their commentators; but these were so numerous that some hundreds were forced to attend in the court and outward rooms of the palace. I knew, and could distinguish these two heroes, at first sight, not only from the crowd, but from each other. Homer was the taller and comelier person of the two, walked very erect for one of his age, and his eyes were the most quick and piercing I ever beheld. Aristotle stooped much, and made use of a staff. His visage was meagre, his hair lank and thin, and his voice hollow. I soon discovered that both of them were perfect strangers to the rest of the company, and had never seen or heard of them before. And I had a whisper from a ghost, who shall be nameless, “That these commentators always kept in the most distant quarters from their principals, in the lower world, through a consciousness of shame and guilt, because they had so horribly misrepresented the meaning of these authors to posterity.” I introduced Didymus and Eustathius to Homer, and persuaded him to treat them better than perhaps they deserved, for he soon found they lacked the genius to grasp the spirit of a poet. But Aristotle was completely frustrated with the account I gave him of Scotus and Ramus, as I introduced them to him; and he asked them, “whether the rest of the tribe were as great dunces as themselves?”’). There is, however, a difference between them: while Hegel thinks of all human minds as one mind that develops stages of the idea in various countries or different times in the same country, Plato sees these stages only as an order of thought or ideas; the history of human thought had not yet occurred to him.

Many criticisms may be made on Plato’s theory of education. While in some respects he unavoidably falls short of modern thinkers, in others he is in advance of them. He is opposed to the modes of education which prevailed in his own time; but he can hardly be said to have discovered new ones. He does not see that education is relative to the characters of individuals; he only desires to impress the same form of the state on the minds of all. He has no sufficient idea of the effect of literature on the formation of the mind, and greatly exaggerates that of mathematics. His aim is above all things to train the reasoning faculties; to implant in the mind the spirit and power of abstraction; to explain and define general notions, and, if possible, to connect them. No wonder that in the vacancy of actual knowledge his followers, and at times even he himself, should have fallen away from the doctrine of ideas, and have returned to that branch of knowledge in which alone the relation of the one and many can be truly seen—the science of number. In his views both of teaching and training he might be styled, in modern language, a doctrinaire; after the Spartan fashion he would have his citizens cast in one mould; he does not seem to consider that some degree of freedom, ‘a little wholesome neglect,’ is necessary to strengthen and develope the character and to give play to the individual nature. His citizens would not have acquired that knowledge which in the vision of Er is supposed to be gained by the pilgrims from their experience of evil.

Many criticisms can be made about Plato’s theory of education. While he falls short of modern thinkers in some ways, in others he is ahead of them. He opposes the educational methods that were common in his time, but he hardly seems to have found new ones. He doesn’t recognize that education should relate to individuals' characters; he merely wants to impose the same structure of the state on everyone’s minds. He lacks a clear understanding of how literature shapes the mind and greatly overstates the importance of mathematics. His main goal is to develop reasoning skills; to instill the spirit and power of abstraction; to clarify and define general concepts, and, if possible, link them together. It’s not surprising that in the absence of concrete knowledge, his followers, and sometimes even he, drifted away from his theory of ideas and returned to the only area where the relationship between the one and the many can be really understood—the study of numbers. In both his teaching and training methods, he could be seen as a doctrinaire in contemporary terms; like the Spartans, he wants his citizens to be uniform. He doesn’t seem to recognize that some degree of freedom, a little "wholesome neglect," is necessary to strengthen and develop character and allow individual nature to flourish. His citizens wouldn’t have gained the knowledge that, in the vision of Er, is supposed to come from experiencing evil.

On the other hand, Plato is far in advance of modern philosophers and theologians when he teaches that education is to be continued through life and will begin again in another. He would never allow education of some kind to cease; although he was aware that the proverbial saying of Solon, ‘I grow old learning many things,’ cannot be applied literally. Himself ravished with the contemplation of the idea of good, and delighting in solid geometry (Rep.), he has no difficulty in imagining that a lifetime might be passed happily in such pursuits. We who know how many more men of business there are in the world than real students or thinkers, are not equally sanguine. The education which he proposes for his citizens is really the ideal life of the philosopher or man of genius, interrupted, but only for a time, by practical duties,—a life not for the many, but for the few.

On the other hand, Plato is well ahead of modern philosophers and theologians when he teaches that education should continue throughout life and will start again in another. He would never accept the idea that education could just stop; although he understood that the saying of Solon, 'I grow old learning many things,' isn't meant to be taken literally. Being captivated by the idea of the good and enjoying solid geometry, he easily imagines that a lifetime could be happily spent in such pursuits. We, who see how many more people focus on business than on real study or thinking, aren't as optimistic. The education he envisions for his citizens is actually the ideal life of a philosopher or a genius, interrupted, but only temporarily, by practical responsibilities—a life meant for the few, not the many.

Yet the thought of Plato may not be wholly incapable of application to our own times. Even if regarded as an ideal which can never be realized, it may have a great effect in elevating the characters of mankind, and raising them above the routine of their ordinary occupation or profession. It is the best form under which we can conceive the whole of life. Nevertheless the idea of Plato is not easily put into practice. For the education of after life is necessarily the education which each one gives himself. Men and women cannot be brought together in schools or colleges at forty or fifty years of age; and if they could the result would be disappointing. The destination of most men is what Plato would call ‘the Den’ for the whole of life, and with that they are content. Neither have they teachers or advisers with whom they can take counsel in riper years. There is no ‘schoolmaster abroad’ who will tell them of their faults, or inspire them with the higher sense of duty, or with the ambition of a true success in life; no Socrates who will convict them of ignorance; no Christ, or follower of Christ, who will reprove them of sin. Hence they have a difficulty in receiving the first element of improvement, which is self-knowledge. The hopes of youth no longer stir them; they rather wish to rest than to pursue high objects. A few only who have come across great men and women, or eminent teachers of religion and morality, have received a second life from them, and have lighted a candle from the fire of their genius.

Yet the ideas of Plato might still be relevant to our times. Even if we see them as ideals that can never be fully achieved, they can inspire people to improve their character and rise above the monotony of everyday work. This is the best way we can imagine life as a whole. However, putting Plato's ideas into action isn't simple. The education we gain in later life is mostly self-directed. Men and women can't just gather in schools or colleges at ages forty or fifty; if they did, the outcome would likely be disappointing. Most people end up in what Plato would call ‘the Den’ for their entire lives, and they're okay with that. They lack mentors or advisors to consult during their mature years. There's no ‘schoolmaster abroad’ to point out their faults, inspire a stronger sense of duty, or drive them toward genuine success in life; no Socrates to reveal their ignorance; no Christ, or follower of Christ, to challenge them about their sins. As a result, they struggle to achieve the first step in self-improvement: self-knowledge. The hopes of youth no longer motivate them; they prefer to rest rather than pursue lofty goals. Only a few who have encountered great figures or notable teachers of ethics and morality have been rejuvenated by them, igniting a spark from the fire of their brilliance.

The want of energy is one of the main reasons why so few persons continue to improve in later years. They have not the will, and do not know the way. They ‘never try an experiment,’ or look up a point of interest for themselves; they make no sacrifices for the sake of knowledge; their minds, like their bodies, at a certain age become fixed. Genius has been defined as ‘the power of taking pains’; but hardly any one keeps up his interest in knowledge throughout a whole life. The troubles of a family, the business of making money, the demands of a profession destroy the elasticity of the mind. The waxen tablet of the memory which was once capable of receiving ‘true thoughts and clear impressions’ becomes hard and crowded; there is not room for the accumulations of a long life (Theaet.). The student, as years advance, rather makes an exchange of knowledge than adds to his stores. There is no pressing necessity to learn; the stock of Classics or History or Natural Science which was enough for a man at twenty-five is enough for him at fifty. Neither is it easy to give a definite answer to any one who asks how he is to improve. For self-education consists in a thousand things, commonplace in themselves,—in adding to what we are by nature something of what we are not; in learning to see ourselves as others see us; in judging, not by opinion, but by the evidence of facts; in seeking out the society of superior minds; in a study of lives and writings of great men; in observation of the world and character; in receiving kindly the natural influence of different times of life; in any act or thought which is raised above the practice or opinions of mankind; in the pursuit of some new or original enquiry; in any effort of mind which calls forth some latent power.

The lack of energy is one of the main reasons why so few people continue to grow in their later years. They lack the willpower and don't know how to move forward. They never take the initiative to experiment or seek out interesting topics on their own; they make no sacrifices for knowledge. Their minds, like their bodies, become set in a certain way as they age. Genius has been described as "the power of taking pains," but very few maintain a lifelong interest in learning. Family troubles, the need to earn a living, and professional responsibilities sap the mind's flexibility. The once-receptive memory, which could hold "true thoughts and clear impressions," becomes rigid and cluttered; there's no space for the insights accumulated over a lifetime (Theaet.). As they grow older, students tend to exchange knowledge rather than build on it. There’s often no strong motivation to learn; the stock of Classics, History, or Natural Science that was sufficient for someone at twenty-five is still deemed enough at fifty. It's also difficult to provide a clear answer to anyone asking how to improve. Self-education involves countless simple activities—adding something we aren't by nature to what we are; learning to view ourselves through others' eyes; judging not by opinion but by evidence; seeking the company of superior minds; studying the lives and writings of great individuals; observing the world and human behavior; being open to the natural influences of different life stages; engaging in any act or thought that rises above common beliefs; pursuing new or original inquiries; and making any mental effort that brings out a hidden potential.

If any one is desirous of carrying out in detail the Platonic education of after-life, some such counsels as the following may be offered to him:—That he shall choose the branch of knowledge to which his own mind most distinctly inclines, and in which he takes the greatest delight, either one which seems to connect with his own daily employment, or, perhaps, furnishes the greatest contrast to it. He may study from the speculative side the profession or business in which he is practically engaged. He may make Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Plato, Bacon the friends and companions of his life. He may find opportunities of hearing the living voice of a great teacher. He may select for enquiry some point of history or some unexplained phenomenon of nature. An hour a day passed in such scientific or literary pursuits will furnish as many facts as the memory can retain, and will give him ‘a pleasure not to be repented of’ (Timaeus). Only let him beware of being the slave of crotchets, or of running after a Will o’ the Wisp in his ignorance, or in his vanity of attributing to himself the gifts of a poet or assuming the air of a philosopher. He should know the limits of his own powers. Better to build up the mind by slow additions, to creep on quietly from one thing to another, to gain insensibly new powers and new interests in knowledge, than to form vast schemes which are never destined to be realized. But perhaps, as Plato would say, ‘This is part of another subject’ (Tim.); though we may also defend our digression by his example (Theaet.).

If anyone wants to fully embrace the Platonic vision of education in life after death, here are some suggestions: Choose the area of knowledge that truly interests you and excites you the most, whether it relates to your daily job or is something completely different. You can study your current profession from a theoretical perspective or dive into the works of great authors like Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Plato, and Bacon as your lifelong companions. Look for opportunities to hear inspiring lessons from a great teacher. Dive into historical events or unexplained natural phenomena. Spending just an hour a day on these scientific or literary activities will fill your memory with facts and provide you with enjoyment you won’t regret (Timaeus). Just be careful not to get bogged down by small quirks, to chase after meaningless distractions in ignorance, or to mistakenly believe you have the talents of a poet or the demeanor of a philosopher. Understand the limits of your abilities. It’s better to slowly build your knowledge, progressing steadily from one topic to another and gradually acquiring new skills and interests, than to create grand plans that are unlikely to succeed. But perhaps, as Plato might say, "This is part of another topic" (Tim.); although we can justify our digression by his example (Theaet.).

4. We remark with surprise that the progress of nations or the natural growth of institutions which fill modern treatises on political philosophy seem hardly ever to have attracted the attention of Plato and Aristotle. The ancients were familiar with the mutability of human affairs; they could moralize over the ruins of cities and the fall of empires (Plato, Statesman, and Sulpicius’ Letter to Cicero); by them fate and chance were deemed to be real powers, almost persons, and to have had a great share in political events. The wiser of them like Thucydides believed that ‘what had been would be again,’ and that a tolerable idea of the future could be gathered from the past. Also they had dreams of a Golden Age which existed once upon a time and might still exist in some unknown land, or might return again in the remote future. But the regular growth of a state enlightened by experience, progressing in knowledge, improving in the arts, of which the citizens were educated by the fulfilment of political duties, appears never to have come within the range of their hopes and aspirations. Such a state had never been seen, and therefore could not be conceived by them. Their experience (Aristot. Metaph.; Plato, Laws) led them to conclude that there had been cycles of civilization in which the arts had been discovered and lost many times over, and cities had been overthrown and rebuilt again and again, and deluges and volcanoes and other natural convulsions had altered the face of the earth. Tradition told them of many destructions of mankind and of the preservation of a remnant. The world began again after a deluge and was reconstructed out of the fragments of itself. Also they were acquainted with empires of unknown antiquity, like the Egyptian or Assyrian; but they had never seen them grow, and could not imagine, any more than we can, the state of man which preceded them. They were puzzled and awestricken by the Egyptian monuments, of which the forms, as Plato says, not in a figure, but literally, were ten thousand years old (Laws), and they contrasted the antiquity of Egypt with their own short memories.

4. We are surprised to note that the progress of nations or the natural growth of institutions that fill modern discussions about political philosophy hardly ever caught the attention of Plato and Aristotle. The ancients understood the changing nature of human affairs; they could reflect on the ruins of cities and the collapse of empires (Plato, Statesman, and Sulpicius’ Letter to Cicero); they viewed fate and chance as real forces, almost like people, having a significant role in political events. The more insightful among them, like Thucydides, believed that ‘what had happened would happen again,’ suggesting that a reasonable understanding of the future could be derived from the past. They also cherished dreams of a Golden Age that had once existed and might still be found in some unknown place, or that might return in the distant future. However, the steady development of a state enlightened by experience, progressing in knowledge, and improving in the arts, where citizens were educated through the fulfillment of political duties, seems to have never been part of their hopes and aspirations. Such a state had never been observed, and therefore could not be imagined by them. Their experiences (Aristot. Metaph.; Plato, Laws) led them to conclude that there had been cycles of civilization in which the arts were discovered and lost many times, and cities were repeatedly destroyed and rebuilt, while natural disasters like floods and volcanoes transformed the landscape. Tradition spoke of many destructions of humanity and the survival of a remnant. The world began anew after a flood, reconstructed from its own ruins. They were also aware of ancient empires, such as the Egyptian or Assyrian; but they had never witnessed their growth and could not envision, any more than we can, the state of humanity that existed before them. They were baffled and awed by the Egyptian monuments, whose forms, as Plato notes, were literally ten thousand years old (Laws), contrasting Egypt's antiquity with their own brief memories.

The early legends of Hellas have no real connection with the later history: they are at a distance, and the intermediate region is concealed from view; there is no road or path which leads from one to the other. At the beginning of Greek history, in the vestibule of the temple, is seen standing first of all the figure of the legislator, himself the interpreter and servant of the God. The fundamental laws which he gives are not supposed to change with time and circumstances. The salvation of the state is held rather to depend on the inviolable maintenance of them. They were sanctioned by the authority of heaven, and it was deemed impiety to alter them. The desire to maintain them unaltered seems to be the origin of what at first sight is very surprising to us—the intolerant zeal of Plato against innovators in religion or politics (Laws); although with a happy inconsistency he is also willing that the laws of other countries should be studied and improvements in legislation privately communicated to the Nocturnal Council (Laws). The additions which were made to them in later ages in order to meet the increasing complexity of affairs were still ascribed by a fiction to the original legislator; and the words of such enactments at Athens were disputed over as if they had been the words of Solon himself. Plato hopes to preserve in a later generation the mind of the legislator; he would have his citizens remain within the lines which he has laid down for them. He would not harass them with minute regulations, he would have allowed some changes in the laws: but not changes which would affect the fundamental institutions of the state, such for example as would convert an aristocracy into a timocracy, or a timocracy into a popular form of government.

The early legends of Greece don’t really connect with later history; they’re distant, and the space in between is hidden from view; there’s no clear path linking the two. At the start of Greek history, in the entrance of the temple, stands the figure of the legislator, who is both the interpreter and servant of God. The core laws he provides are meant to remain unchanged over time and circumstances. The survival of the state relies on their unwavering enforcement. They were backed by heavenly authority, and changing them was seen as impious. The urge to keep these laws intact seems to explain what initially strikes us as surprising—the intense determination of Plato against changes in religion or politics (Laws); although, inconsistently, he is open to studying the laws of other nations and privately discussing legal improvements with the Nocturnal Council (Laws). Later additions to these laws, made to address the growing complexity of society, were still fictionally attributed to the original legislator; and the language of such laws in Athens was debated as if it were the exact wording of Solon himself. Plato aims to maintain the legislator's mindset in future generations; he wants his citizens to stay within the guidelines he established. He wouldn’t burden them with excessive regulations but would allow some changes to the laws—though not ones that would alter the fundamental institutions of the state, such as turning an aristocracy into a timocracy, or a timocracy into a popular government.

Passing from speculations to facts, we observe that progress has been the exception rather than the law of human history. And therefore we are not surprised to find that the idea of progress is of modern rather than of ancient date; and, like the idea of a philosophy of history, is not more than a century or two old. It seems to have arisen out of the impression left on the human mind by the growth of the Roman Empire and of the Christian Church, and to be due to the political and social improvements which they introduced into the world; and still more in our own century to the idealism of the first French Revolution and the triumph of American Independence; and in a yet greater degree to the vast material prosperity and growth of population in England and her colonies and in America. It is also to be ascribed in a measure to the greater study of the philosophy of history. The optimist temperament of some great writers has assisted the creation of it, while the opposite character has led a few to regard the future of the world as dark. The ‘spectator of all time and of all existence’ sees more of ‘the increasing purpose which through the ages ran’ than formerly: but to the inhabitant of a small state of Hellas the vision was necessarily limited like the valley in which he dwelt. There was no remote past on which his eye could rest, nor any future from which the veil was partly lifted up by the analogy of history. The narrowness of view, which to ourselves appears so singular, was to him natural, if not unavoidable.

Moving from speculation to facts, we see that progress has been more of an exception than the rule in human history. So, it's not surprising to find that the idea of progress is a modern concept rather than an ancient one; like the idea of a philosophy of history, it’s only about a century or two old. It seems to have emerged from the impact of the growth of the Roman Empire and the Christian Church, and from the political and social advancements they brought to the world. Even more so in our own century, it stems from the ideals of the first French Revolution and the success of American Independence, and to an even greater extent, from the immense material prosperity and population growth in England, its colonies, and in America. This idea can also be partially attributed to a deeper focus on the philosophy of history. The optimistic outlook of some prominent writers has contributed to its development, while others have perceived the future of the world as bleak. The 'observer of all time and existence' perceives more of 'the increasing purpose that has run through the ages' than before: but for someone living in a small state of ancient Greece, their perspective was necessarily limited, much like the valley they inhabited. There was no distant past for them to consider, nor any future that history partially unveiled. The restricted viewpoint, which seems so unusual to us, was natural, if not unavoidable, for them.

5. For the relation of the Republic to the Statesman and the Laws, and the two other works of Plato which directly treat of politics, see the Introductions to the two latter; a few general points of comparison may be touched upon in this place.

5. For the connection between the Republic and the Statesman and the Laws, as well as the two other works of Plato that focus on politics, refer to the Introductions of those two works; we can touch on a few general points of comparison here.

And first of the Laws.

And first of the laws.

(1) The Republic, though probably written at intervals, yet speaking generally and judging by the indications of thought and style, may be reasonably ascribed to the middle period of Plato’s life: the Laws are certainly the work of his declining years, and some portions of them at any rate seem to have been written in extreme old age.

(1) The Republic, although likely written over a span of time, can generally be said to belong to the middle part of Plato’s life, based on the style and thought presented. The Laws are definitely from his later years, and some parts of them appear to have been written when he was very old.

(2) The Republic is full of hope and aspiration: the Laws bear the stamp of failure and disappointment. The one is a finished work which received the last touches of the author: the other is imperfectly executed, and apparently unfinished. The one has the grace and beauty of youth: the other has lost the poetical form, but has more of the severity and knowledge of life which is characteristic of old age.

(2) The Republic is full of hope and ambition: the Laws show signs of failure and disappointment. One is a completed piece that received the final edits from the author: the other is poorly executed and seems incomplete. One has the charm and beauty of youth: the other has lost its poetic form but has gained the seriousness and wisdom of experience that come with old age.

(3) The most conspicuous defect of the Laws is the failure of dramatic power, whereas the Republic is full of striking contrasts of ideas and oppositions of character.

(3) The most obvious flaw in the Laws is the lack of dramatic impact, while the Republic is filled with striking contrasts of ideas and opposing characters.

(4) The Laws may be said to have more the nature of a sermon, the Republic of a poem; the one is more religious, the other more intellectual.

(4) The Laws can be seen more like a sermon, while the Republic is more like a poem; one is more religious, and the other is more intellectual.

(5) Many theories of Plato, such as the doctrine of ideas, the government of the world by philosophers, are not found in the Laws; the immortality of the soul is first mentioned in xii; the person of Socrates has altogether disappeared. The community of women and children is renounced; the institution of common or public meals for women (Laws) is for the first time introduced (Ar. Pol.).

(5) Many of Plato's theories, like the idea of forms and the idea of philosophers governing the world, aren't present in the Laws; the concept of the immortality of the soul is mentioned for the first time in book twelve; Socrates' character is completely absent. The idea of sharing women and children is dismissed; the practice of communal meals for women is introduced for the first time in the Laws (Ar. Pol.).

(6) There remains in the Laws the old enmity to the poets, who are ironically saluted in high-flown terms, and, at the same time, are peremptorily ordered out of the city, if they are not willing to submit their poems to the censorship of the magistrates (Rep.).

(6) In the Laws, there's still a lingering hostility towards the poets, who are ironically praised in grand language, yet at the same time, they're firmly told to leave the city unless they're willing to have their poems reviewed by the magistrates (Rep.).

(7) Though the work is in most respects inferior, there are a few passages in the Laws, such as the honour due to the soul, the evils of licentious or unnatural love, the whole of Book x. (religion), the dishonesty of retail trade, and bequests, which come more home to us, and contain more of what may be termed the modern element in Plato than almost anything in the Republic.

(7) While the work is generally of lower quality, there are a few sections in the Laws, like the respect owed to the soul, the harms of excessive or unnatural love, the entirety of Book x (on religion), the dishonesty in retail trade, and inheritances, that resonate more with us and include more of what could be considered the modern aspect in Plato than almost anything in the Republic.

The relation of the two works to one another is very well given:

The relationship between the two works is very clearly presented:

(1) by Aristotle in the Politics from the side of the Laws:—

(1) by Aristotle in the Politics focusing on the Laws:—

‘The same, or nearly the same, objections apply to Plato’s later work, the Laws, and therefore we had better examine briefly the constitution which is therein described. In the Republic, Socrates has definitely settled in all a few questions only; such as the community of women and children, the community of property, and the constitution of the state. The population is divided into two classes—one of husbandmen, and the other of warriors; from this latter is taken a third class of counsellors and rulers of the state. But Socrates has not determined whether the husbandmen and artists are to have a share in the government, and whether they too are to carry arms and share in military service or not. He certainly thinks that the women ought to share in the education of the guardians, and to fight by their side. The remainder of the work is filled up with digressions foreign to the main subject, and with discussions about the education of the guardians. In the Laws there is hardly anything but laws; not much is said about the constitution. This, which he had intended to make more of the ordinary type, he gradually brings round to the other or ideal form. For with the exception of the community of women and property, he supposes everything to be the same in both states; there is to be the same education; the citizens of both are to live free from servile occupations, and there are to be common meals in both. The only difference is that in the Laws the common meals are extended to women, and the warriors number about 5000, but in the Republic only 1000.’

The same, or nearly the same, objections apply to Plato's later work, the Laws, so let’s briefly examine the constitution described there. In the Republic, Socrates only addresses a few key questions, like the community of women and children, the community of property, and the structure of the state. The population is divided into two classes—one of farmers and the other of warriors; from the warriors, a third class of counselors and rulers of the state is created. However, Socrates hasn’t made it clear whether farmers and artisans should participate in the government or if they should also bear arms and serve in the military. He definitely believes that women should be involved in the education of the guardians and fight alongside them. The rest of the work is filled with digressions unrelated to the main topic and discussions about the education of the guardians. In the Laws, there’s almost nothing but laws; not much is mentioned about the constitution. What he intended to be more of the usual type gradually shifts towards the ideal form. Except for the community of women and property, he assumes everything else is the same in both states; there will be the same education; citizens in both will live free from servile jobs, and there will be common meals in both. The only difference is that in the Laws, common meals include women, and the number of warriors is about 5000, while in the Republic, it's only 1000.

(2) by Plato in the Laws (Book v.), from the side of the Republic:—

(2) by Plato in the Laws (Book v.), from the perspective of the Republic:—

‘The first and highest form of the state and of the government and of the law is that in which there prevails most widely the ancient saying that “Friends have all things in common.” Whether there is now, or ever will be, this communion of women and children and of property, in which the private and individual is altogether banished from life, and things which are by nature private, such as eyes and ears and hands, have become common, and all men express praise and blame, and feel joy and sorrow, on the same occasions, and the laws unite the city to the utmost,—whether all this is possible or not, I say that no man, acting upon any other principle, will ever constitute a state more exalted in virtue, or truer or better than this. Such a state, whether inhabited by Gods or sons of Gods, will make them blessed who dwell therein; and therefore to this we are to look for the pattern of the state, and to cling to this, and, as far as possible, to seek for one which is like this. The state which we have now in hand, when created, will be nearest to immortality and unity in the next degree; and after that, by the grace of God, we will complete the third one. And we will begin by speaking of the nature and origin of the second.’

The first and highest form of the state, government, and law is the one where the old saying "Friends have everything in common" is most widely accepted. Whether there is currently, or ever will be, a true community of women, children, and property—where private and individual ownership is completely eliminated and personal things like eyes, ears, and hands are shared, and everyone experiences joy and sorrow at the same moments, with laws binding the city together to the fullest—whether any of this is possible or not, I claim that no one acting under any other principle will ever create a state that is more virtuous, truthful, or better than this one. Such a state, whether inhabited by gods or their descendants, will bring happiness to those who live there; thus, we should look to this as the ideal model for our state and strive to create something that resembles it as much as possible. The state we are currently discussing, once established, will be closest to immortality and unity in the next level, and afterward, with God's grace, we will complete the third. We will begin by discussing the nature and origin of the second.

The comparatively short work called the Statesman or Politicus in its style and manner is more akin to the Laws, while in its idealism it rather resembles the Republic. As far as we can judge by various indications of language and thought, it must be later than the one and of course earlier than the other. In both the Republic and Statesman a close connection is maintained between Politics and Dialectic. In the Statesman, enquiries into the principles of Method are interspersed with discussions about Politics. The comparative advantages of the rule of law and of a person are considered, and the decision given in favour of a person (Arist. Pol.). But much may be said on the other side, nor is the opposition necessary; for a person may rule by law, and law may be so applied as to be the living voice of the legislator. As in the Republic, there is a myth, describing, however, not a future, but a former existence of mankind. The question is asked, ‘Whether the state of innocence which is described in the myth, or a state like our own which possesses art and science and distinguishes good from evil, is the preferable condition of man.’ To this question of the comparative happiness of civilized and primitive life, which was so often discussed in the last century and in our own, no answer is given. The Statesman, though less perfect in style than the Republic and of far less range, may justly be regarded as one of the greatest of Plato’s dialogues.

The relatively short work known as the Statesman, or Politicus, is more similar in style and approach to the Laws, while its idealism is more like that of the Republic. Based on various clues in language and thought, we can conclude it was written later than one and earlier than the other. Both the Republic and Statesman maintain a close link between Politics and Dialectic. In the Statesman, discussions on the principles of Method are mixed with political discussions. It considers the pros and cons of rule by law versus rule by an individual, ultimately favoring rule by a person (Arist. Pol.). However, there’s much to be said on the opposing side, and the conflict isn’t necessary; a person can govern by law, and the law can be applied in such a way that it echoes the will of the legislator. Similar to the Republic, there’s a myth included, which describes not a future state but a past condition of humanity. The text asks whether the innocent state portrayed in the myth or a state like our own, which includes art and science and distinguishes between good and evil, represents the better condition for humankind. No answer is provided to this question about the comparative happiness of civilized versus primitive life, a topic frequently debated in the last century and in our own. Although the Statesman is less polished in style than the Republic and has a narrower scope, it can rightly be considered one of Plato’s greatest dialogues.

6. Others as well as Plato have chosen an ideal Republic to be the vehicle of thoughts which they could not definitely express, or which went beyond their own age. The classical writing which approaches most nearly to the Republic of Plato is the ‘De Republica’ of Cicero; but neither in this nor in any other of his dialogues does he rival the art of Plato. The manners are clumsy and inferior; the hand of the rhetorician is apparent at every turn. Yet noble sentiments are constantly recurring: the true note of Roman patriotism—‘We Romans are a great people’—resounds through the whole work. Like Socrates, Cicero turns away from the phenomena of the heavens to civil and political life. He would rather not discuss the ‘two Suns’ of which all Rome was talking, when he can converse about ‘the two nations in one’ which had divided Rome ever since the days of the Gracchi. Like Socrates again, speaking in the person of Scipio, he is afraid lest he should assume too much the character of a teacher, rather than of an equal who is discussing among friends the two sides of a question. He would confine the terms King or State to the rule of reason and justice, and he will not concede that title either to a democracy or to a monarchy. But under the rule of reason and justice he is willing to include the natural superior ruling over the natural inferior, which he compares to the soul ruling over the body. He prefers a mixture of forms of government to any single one. The two portraits of the just and the unjust, which occur in the second book of the Republic, are transferred to the state—Philus, one of the interlocutors, maintaining against his will the necessity of injustice as a principle of government, while the other, Laelius, supports the opposite thesis. His views of language and number are derived from Plato; like him he denounces the drama. He also declares that if his life were to be twice as long he would have no time to read the lyric poets. The picture of democracy is translated by him word for word, though he had hardly shown himself able to ‘carry the jest’ of Plato. He converts into a stately sentence the humorous fancy about the animals, who ‘are so imbued with the spirit of democracy that they make the passers-by get out of their way.’ His description of the tyrant is imitated from Plato, but is far inferior. The second book is historical, and claims for the Roman constitution (which is to him the ideal) a foundation of fact such as Plato probably intended to have given to the Republic in the Critias. His most remarkable imitation of Plato is the adaptation of the vision of Er, which is converted by Cicero into the ‘Somnium Scipionis’; he has ‘romanized’ the myth of the Republic, adding an argument for the immortality of the soul taken from the Phaedrus, and some other touches derived from the Phaedo and the Timaeus. Though a beautiful tale and containing splendid passages, the ‘Somnium Scipionis; is very inferior to the vision of Er; it is only a dream, and hardly allows the reader to suppose that the writer believes in his own creation. Whether his dialogues were framed on the model of the lost dialogues of Aristotle, as he himself tells us, or of Plato, to which they bear many superficial resemblances, he is still the Roman orator; he is not conversing, but making speeches, and is never able to mould the intractable Latin to the grace and ease of the Greek Platonic dialogue. But if he is defective in form, much more is he inferior to the Greek in matter; he nowhere in his philosophical writings leaves upon our minds the impression of an original thinker.

6. Others, along with Plato, have chosen an ideal Republic as a way to express thoughts they couldn't clearly convey, or that went beyond their own time. The classical work that comes closest to Plato's Republic is Cicero's ‘De Republica’; however, neither this nor any of his other dialogues match Plato's skill. The style is awkward and lacking; the influence of a rhetorician is evident throughout. Yet, noble ideas often emerge: the true spirit of Roman patriotism—‘We Romans are a great people’—echoes throughout the entire work. Like Socrates, Cicero shifts focus from celestial phenomena to civil and political matters. He prefers not to discuss the ‘two Suns’ that were the talk of Rome when he can talk about ‘the two nations in one’ that have split Rome since the days of the Gracchi. Again, like Socrates, speaking through Scipio, he worries about coming off too much as a teacher rather than as an equal discussing different sides of an issue with friends. He wants to reserve the terms King or State for governance by reason and justice, and he doesn’t grant those titles to either a democracy or a monarchy. However, under the governance of reason and justice, he includes the natural superior ruling over the natural inferior, comparing it to the soul governing the body. He prefers a mix of government forms over any single one. The two portrayals of the just and the unjust, found in the second book of the Republic, are mirrored in the state—Philus, one of the speakers, reluctantly arguing for the necessity of injustice as a governing principle, while Laelius represents the opposing view. His thoughts on language and number come from Plato; like him, he criticizes drama. He also states that if he had twice as long to live, he still wouldn’t have time to read the lyric poets. He translates the depiction of democracy word for word, even though he hardly seems capable of achieving the cleverness of Plato. He turns the playful idea about animals, who ‘are so caught up in the spirit of democracy that they force passers-by to step aside,’ into a formal sentence. His portrayal of the tyrant is borrowed from Plato but is significantly weaker. The second book is historical and claims that the Roman constitution (which he sees as ideal) is based on facts, similar to what Plato likely intended for the Republic in the Critias. His most notable imitation of Plato is the transformation of the vision of Er into the ‘Somnium Scipionis’; he has 'Romanized' the myth of the Republic, adding in an argument for the immortality of the soul taken from the Phaedrus, along with other elements from the Phaedo and Timaeus. While it’s a beautiful story with some impressive sections, the ‘Somnium Scipionis’ falls short of the vision of Er; it reads more as a dream and makes it hard for readers to believe that the author is convinced by his own creation. Whether his dialogues were modeled after the lost works of Aristotle, as he claims, or Plato, to which they have many superficial similarities, he remains the Roman orator; he is delivering speeches rather than engaging in conversation, and he can never shape the unyielding Latin into the grace and fluidity of the Greek Platonic dialogue. While he may be lacking in style, he is even more deficient compared to the Greeks in substance; in none of his philosophical writings does he leave the impression of an original thinker.

Plato’s Republic has been said to be a church and not a state; and such an ideal of a city in the heavens has always hovered over the Christian world, and is embodied in St. Augustine’s ‘De Civitate Dei,’ which is suggested by the decay and fall of the Roman Empire, much in the same manner in which we may imagine the Republic of Plato to have been influenced by the decline of Greek politics in the writer’s own age. The difference is that in the time of Plato the degeneracy, though certain, was gradual and insensible: whereas the taking of Rome by the Goths stirred like an earthquake the age of St. Augustine. Men were inclined to believe that the overthrow of the city was to be ascribed to the anger felt by the old Roman deities at the neglect of their worship. St. Augustine maintains the opposite thesis; he argues that the destruction of the Roman Empire is due, not to the rise of Christianity, but to the vices of Paganism. He wanders over Roman history, and over Greek philosophy and mythology, and finds everywhere crime, impiety and falsehood. He compares the worst parts of the Gentile religions with the best elements of the faith of Christ. He shows nothing of the spirit which led others of the early Christian Fathers to recognize in the writings of the Greek philosophers the power of the divine truth. He traces the parallel of the kingdom of God, that is, the history of the Jews, contained in their scriptures, and of the kingdoms of the world, which are found in gentile writers, and pursues them both into an ideal future. It need hardly be remarked that his use both of Greek and of Roman historians and of the sacred writings of the Jews is wholly uncritical. The heathen mythology, the Sybilline oracles, the myths of Plato, the dreams of Neo-Platonists are equally regarded by him as matter of fact. He must be acknowledged to be a strictly polemical or controversial writer who makes the best of everything on one side and the worst of everything on the other. He has no sympathy with the old Roman life as Plato has with Greek life, nor has he any idea of the ecclesiastical kingdom which was to arise out of the ruins of the Roman empire. He is not blind to the defects of the Christian Church, and looks forward to a time when Christian and Pagan shall be alike brought before the judgment-seat, and the true City of God shall appear...The work of St. Augustine is a curious repertory of antiquarian learning and quotations, deeply penetrated with Christian ethics, but showing little power of reasoning, and a slender knowledge of the Greek literature and language. He was a great genius, and a noble character, yet hardly capable of feeling or understanding anything external to his own theology. Of all the ancient philosophers he is most attracted by Plato, though he is very slightly acquainted with his writings. He is inclined to believe that the idea of creation in the Timaeus is derived from the narrative in Genesis; and he is strangely taken with the coincidence (?) of Plato’s saying that ‘the philosopher is the lover of God,’ and the words of the Book of Exodus in which God reveals himself to Moses (Exod.) He dwells at length on miracles performed in his own day, of which the evidence is regarded by him as irresistible. He speaks in a very interesting manner of the beauty and utility of nature and of the human frame, which he conceives to afford a foretaste of the heavenly state and of the resurrection of the body. The book is not really what to most persons the title of it would imply, and belongs to an age which has passed away. But it contains many fine passages and thoughts which are for all time.

Plato's Republic has been referred to as a church rather than a state; an ideal vision of a city in the heavens has always influenced the Christian world and is reflected in St. Augustine's 'De Civitate Dei.' This was inspired by the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, much like how Plato's Republic may have been shaped by the deterioration of Greek politics in his time. The key difference is that during Plato's era, the decline was slow and subtle, whereas the fall of Rome at the hands of the Goths was like a seismic shock that rocked St. Augustine's world. Many believed that the city's downfall was due to the old Roman gods' anger over being neglected in worship. St. Augustine argues the opposite, claiming that the destruction of the Roman Empire does not stem from the rise of Christianity but rather from the vices of Paganism. He examines Roman history, Greek philosophy, and mythology, uncovering themes of crime, impiety, and deceit throughout. He contrasts the worst aspects of pagan religions with the best features of Christ's faith. Unlike other early Christian Fathers who found divine truth in Greek philosophers' writings, he does not share that perspective. He draws parallels between the kingdom of God, as depicted in Jewish scriptures, and the kingdoms of the world found in pagan literature, following their trajectories into an ideal future. It’s noteworthy that his usage of Greek and Roman historians, along with Jewish sacred texts, is entirely uncritical. He treats heathen mythology, the Sibylline oracles, Plato’s myths, and Neo-Platonist dreams as factual. He is clearly a polemical writer, emphasizing the positives of one side while highlighting the negatives of the other. He lacks the admiration for the old Roman life that Plato has for Greek life, and he doesn’t envision the ecclesiastical kingdom that would rise from the ruins of the Roman Empire. He acknowledges the flaws of the Christian Church and anticipates a time when both Christians and Pagans will be judged together, and the true City of God will manifest. St. Augustine's work is a fascinating collection of antiquarian knowledge and quotations, deeply infused with Christian ethics but showing a lack of reasoning skills and limited knowledge of Greek literature and language. He was a brilliant mind with noble character, yet he struggled to comprehend anything beyond his own theology. Among all ancient philosophers, he is most intrigued by Plato, despite having only a slight acquaintance with his writings. He tends to believe that the idea of creation in the Timaeus comes from the Genesis narrative; he is curiously fascinated by the coincidence of Plato’s statement that “the philosopher is the lover of God” and God revealing Himself to Moses in the Book of Exodus. He discusses at length the miracles occurring in his time, regarding the evidence for these as undeniable. He speaks engagingly of the beauty and purpose of nature and the human body, which he believes give a glimpse of the heavenly state and the resurrection of the body. The book may not align with what most people would expect from its title, belonging to a bygone era. However, it contains many profound passages and thoughts that remain relevant through time.

The short treatise de Monarchia of Dante is by far the most remarkable of mediaeval ideals, and bears the impress of the great genius in whom Italy and the Middle Ages are so vividly reflected. It is the vision of an Universal Empire, which is supposed to be the natural and necessary government of the world, having a divine authority distinct from the Papacy, yet coextensive with it. It is not ‘the ghost of the dead Roman Empire sitting crowned upon the grave thereof,’ but the legitimate heir and successor of it, justified by the ancient virtues of the Romans and the beneficence of their rule. Their right to be the governors of the world is also confirmed by the testimony of miracles, and acknowledged by St. Paul when he appealed to Caesar, and even more emphatically by Christ Himself, Who could not have made atonement for the sins of men if He had not been condemned by a divinely authorized tribunal. The necessity for the establishment of an Universal Empire is proved partly by a priori arguments such as the unity of God and the unity of the family or nation; partly by perversions of Scripture and history, by false analogies of nature, by misapplied quotations from the classics, and by odd scraps and commonplaces of logic, showing a familiar but by no means exact knowledge of Aristotle (of Plato there is none). But a more convincing argument still is the miserable state of the world, which he touchingly describes. He sees no hope of happiness or peace for mankind until all nations of the earth are comprehended in a single empire. The whole treatise shows how deeply the idea of the Roman Empire was fixed in the minds of his contemporaries. Not much argument was needed to maintain the truth of a theory which to his own contemporaries seemed so natural and congenial. He speaks, or rather preaches, from the point of view, not of the ecclesiastic, but of the layman, although, as a good Catholic, he is willing to acknowledge that in certain respects the Empire must submit to the Church. The beginning and end of all his noble reflections and of his arguments, good and bad, is the aspiration ‘that in this little plot of earth belonging to mortal man life may pass in freedom and peace.’ So inextricably is his vision of the future bound up with the beliefs and circumstances of his own age.

The short essay "de Monarchia" by Dante is by far the most notable of medieval ideals and carries the mark of the great genius who so vividly reflects both Italy and the Middle Ages. It presents the idea of a Universal Empire, seen as the natural and necessary government of the world, possessing a divine authority separate from the Papacy, yet still interconnected with it. It’s not “the ghost of the dead Roman Empire sitting crowned upon its grave,” but rather the legitimate heir and successor, justified by the ancient virtues of the Romans and the benefits of their governance. Their right to rule the world is also validated by miraculous testimonies, acknowledged by St. Paul when he appealed to Caesar, and even more emphatically by Christ Himself, who could not have redeemed the sins of humanity without being judged by a divinely authorized court. The need for establishing a Universal Empire is supported partly by a priori arguments, like the unity of God and the unity of families or nations; and partly through misinterpretations of Scripture and history, flawed natural analogies, incorrectly applied classical quotations, and odd snippets of logic that show a familiar yet imprecise understanding of Aristotle (there’s no reference to Plato). But an even stronger argument is the dire condition of the world, which he poignantly describes. He sees no hope for happiness or peace for humanity until all nations are united under a single empire. The entire treatise demonstrates how deeply the concept of the Roman Empire was embedded in the minds of his peers. Little argument was needed to defend a theory that seemed so natural and agreeable to those of his time. He speaks, or rather preaches, from the perspective of a layperson rather than an ecclesiastical figure, although, as a good Catholic, he concedes that in certain respects the Empire must defer to the Church. The essence of all his noble thoughts and arguments, whether strong or weak, is the desire “that in this small part of the earth belonging to mortals, life may be lived in freedom and peace.” His vision for the future is so tightly woven with the beliefs and circumstances of his own time.

The ‘Utopia’ of Sir Thomas More is a surprising monument of his genius, and shows a reach of thought far beyond his contemporaries. The book was written by him at the age of about 34 or 35, and is full of the generous sentiments of youth. He brings the light of Plato to bear upon the miserable state of his own country. Living not long after the Wars of the Roses, and in the dregs of the Catholic Church in England, he is indignant at the corruption of the clergy, at the luxury of the nobility and gentry, at the sufferings of the poor, at the calamities caused by war. To the eye of More the whole world was in dissolution and decay; and side by side with the misery and oppression which he has described in the First Book of the Utopia, he places in the Second Book the ideal state which by the help of Plato he had constructed. The times were full of stir and intellectual interest. The distant murmur of the Reformation was beginning to be heard. To minds like More’s, Greek literature was a revelation: there had arisen an art of interpretation, and the New Testament was beginning to be understood as it had never been before, and has not often been since, in its natural sense. The life there depicted appeared to him wholly unlike that of Christian commonwealths, in which ‘he saw nothing but a certain conspiracy of rich men procuring their own commodities under the name and title of the Commonwealth.’ He thought that Christ, like Plato, ‘instituted all things common,’ for which reason, he tells us, the citizens of Utopia were the more willing to receive his doctrines (‘Howbeit, I think this was no small help and furtherance in the matter, that they heard us say that Christ instituted among his, all things common, and that the same community doth yet remain in the rightest Christian communities’ (Utopia).). The community of property is a fixed idea with him, though he is aware of the arguments which may be urged on the other side (‘These things (I say), when I consider with myself, I hold well with Plato, and do nothing marvel that he would make no laws for them that refused those laws, whereby all men should have and enjoy equal portions of riches and commodities. For the wise men did easily foresee this to be the one and only way to the wealth of a community, if equality of all things should be brought in and established’ (Utopia).). We wonder how in the reign of Henry VIII, though veiled in another language and published in a foreign country, such speculations could have been endured.

The 'Utopia' by Sir Thomas More is an impressive testament to his genius, showcasing a level of thought that surpasses his peers. He wrote the book at around 34 or 35 years old, filled with the idealistic sentiments of youth. He sheds light on the dire situation of his country, influenced by the philosophies of Plato. Living shortly after the Wars of the Roses and during a troubled period for the Catholic Church in England, he is outraged by the corruption of the clergy, the excesses of the nobility and gentry, the suffering of the poor, and the devastation caused by war. In More's view, the entire world was falling apart; alongside the misery and oppression he describes in the First Book of Utopia, he presents in the Second Book the ideal society he constructed with Plato’s guidance. These were times of great change and intellectual curiosity. The distant sound of the Reformation was starting to be heard. For thinkers like More, Greek literature was a revelation: an emerging ability to interpret it allowed the New Testament to be understood more clearly than ever before, and rarely since, in its natural meaning. The lifestyle depicted felt completely unlike that of Christian communities, which he saw as “nothing but a conspiracy of rich people seeking their own interests under the name of the Commonwealth.” He believed that Christ, similar to Plato, “established everything in common,” which is why, he tells us, the citizens of Utopia were more open to his ideas (“However, I think it was a significant help in this matter that they heard us say that Christ established everything in common among his followers, and that this same community still exists in the true Christian communities” (Utopia).). The concept of shared property is a foundational idea for him, even though he acknowledges the arguments against it (“These things (I say), when I reflect on them, I agree with Plato, and I am not surprised that he would create no laws for those who rejected the laws that would allow everyone to have and enjoy equal shares of wealth and resources. For wise individuals easily foresaw that this was the only path to communal wealth if equality of all things were to be established” (Utopia).). It's astonishing that during the reign of Henry VIII, even though it was disguised in different language and published abroad, such ideas could be tolerated.

He is gifted with far greater dramatic invention than any one who succeeded him, with the exception of Swift. In the art of feigning he is a worthy disciple of Plato. Like him, starting from a small portion of fact, he founds his tale with admirable skill on a few lines in the Latin narrative of the voyages of Amerigo Vespucci. He is very precise about dates and facts, and has the power of making us believe that the narrator of the tale must have been an eyewitness. We are fairly puzzled by his manner of mixing up real and imaginary persons; his boy John Clement and Peter Giles, citizen of Antwerp, with whom he disputes about the precise words which are supposed to have been used by the (imaginary) Portuguese traveller, Raphael Hythloday. ‘I have the more cause,’ says Hythloday, ‘to fear that my words shall not be believed, for that I know how difficultly and hardly I myself would have believed another man telling the same, if I had not myself seen it with mine own eyes.’ Or again: ‘If you had been with me in Utopia, and had presently seen their fashions and laws as I did which lived there five years and more, and would never have come thence, but only to make the new land known here,’ etc. More greatly regrets that he forgot to ask Hythloday in what part of the world Utopia is situated; he ‘would have spent no small sum of money rather than it should have escaped him,’ and he begs Peter Giles to see Hythloday or write to him and obtain an answer to the question. After this we are not surprised to hear that a Professor of Divinity (perhaps ‘a late famous vicar of Croydon in Surrey,’ as the translator thinks) is desirous of being sent thither as a missionary by the High Bishop, ‘yea, and that he may himself be made Bishop of Utopia, nothing doubting that he must obtain this Bishopric with suit; and he counteth that a godly suit which proceedeth not of the desire of honour or lucre, but only of a godly zeal.’ The design may have failed through the disappearance of Hythloday, concerning whom we have ‘very uncertain news’ after his departure. There is no doubt, however, that he had told More and Giles the exact situation of the island, but unfortunately at the same moment More’s attention, as he is reminded in a letter from Giles, was drawn off by a servant, and one of the company from a cold caught on shipboard coughed so loud as to prevent Giles from hearing. And ‘the secret has perished’ with him; to this day the place of Utopia remains unknown.

He has a much greater talent for storytelling than anyone who came after him, except for Swift. In the art of creating fictional stories, he is a true student of Plato. Like him, starting with a small piece of fact, he skillfully builds his narrative based on a few lines from the Latin account of Amerigo Vespucci's voyages. He is very precise about dates and facts, and he makes us believe that the storyteller must have been an eyewitness. We are somewhat confused by his way of mixing real and imaginary figures; his friend John Clement and Peter Giles, a citizen of Antwerp, argue about the exact words supposedly used by the (fictional) Portuguese traveler, Raphael Hythloday. "I have even more reason," says Hythloday, "to fear that my words won't be believed, because I know just how difficult it would have been for me to believe another person telling the same story if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes." He also says: "If you had been with me in Utopia and had seen their customs and laws as I did after living there for over five years, you would never have left except to share news of this new land here," etc. He deeply regrets that he forgot to ask Hythloday where Utopia is located; he "would have spent a lot of money to ensure he didn’t miss it," and he asks Peter Giles to see Hythloday or write to him to find out the answer. After this, it's no surprise to hear that a Professor of Divinity (possibly "a recently famous vicar of Croydon in Surrey," as the translator suggests) wants to be sent there as a missionary by the High Bishop, "and he wants to be made Bishop of Utopia, sure that he can obtain this position with a request; he believes this is a righteous request that comes not from a desire for honor or profit, but only from a godly zeal." The plan may have failed due to Hythloday's disappearance, of whom we have "very uncertain news" after he left. However, there's no doubt he told More and Giles the exact location of the island, but unfortunately, at the very moment, as Giles reminds him in a letter, More was distracted by a servant, and someone in the group, who caught a cold on the ship, coughed so loudly that Giles couldn't hear. And "the secret has perished" with him; to this day, the location of Utopia remains unknown.

The words of Phaedrus, ‘O Socrates, you can easily invent Egyptians or anything,’ are recalled to our mind as we read this lifelike fiction. Yet the greater merit of the work is not the admirable art, but the originality of thought. More is as free as Plato from the prejudices of his age, and far more tolerant. The Utopians do not allow him who believes not in the immortality of the soul to share in the administration of the state (Laws), ‘howbeit they put him to no punishment, because they be persuaded that it is in no man’s power to believe what he list’; and ‘no man is to be blamed for reasoning in support of his own religion (‘One of our company in my presence was sharply punished. He, as soon as he was baptised, began, against our wills, with more earnest affection than wisdom, to reason of Christ’s religion, and began to wax so hot in his matter, that he did not only prefer our religion before all other, but also did despise and condemn all other, calling them profane, and the followers of them wicked and devilish, and the children of everlasting damnation. When he had thus long reasoned the matter, they laid hold on him, accused him, and condemned him into exile, not as a despiser of religion, but as a seditious person and a raiser up of dissension among the people’).’ In the public services ‘no prayers be used, but such as every man may boldly pronounce without giving offence to any sect.’ He says significantly, ‘There be that give worship to a man that was once of excellent virtue or of famous glory, not only as God, but also the chiefest and highest God. But the most and the wisest part, rejecting all these, believe that there is a certain godly power unknown, far above the capacity and reach of man’s wit, dispersed throughout all the world, not in bigness, but in virtue and power. Him they call the Father of all. To Him alone they attribute the beginnings, the increasings, the proceedings, the changes, and the ends of all things. Neither give they any divine honours to any other than him.’ So far was More from sharing the popular beliefs of his time. Yet at the end he reminds us that he does not in all respects agree with the customs and opinions of the Utopians which he describes. And we should let him have the benefit of this saving clause, and not rudely withdraw the veil behind which he has been pleased to conceal himself.

The words of Phaedrus, “Oh Socrates, you can easily come up with stories about Egyptians or anything else,” come to mind as we read this vivid narrative. However, the true value of the work lies not just in its impressive artistry but in its originality of thought. More is as free as Plato from the biases of his time and far more accepting. The Utopians do not let anyone who doesn’t believe in the immortality of the soul take part in governing the state (Laws), but they don’t punish him because they believe that it’s not within anyone's control to believe what they choose; and “no one should be blamed for reasoning in support of their own religion.” (“One of our group was sharply punished in my presence. As soon as he was baptized, he began, against our wishes, to fervently argue about Christ’s religion with more passion than wisdom, becoming so intense that he not only preferred our religion above all others but also looked down on and condemned every other religion, calling them profane, and their followers wicked and demonic, and children destined for eternal damnation. After he argued for a while, they seized him, accused him, and sentenced him to exile, not as someone who disdained religion, but as someone causing unrest and stirring up conflict among the people.”) In public services, “no prayers are used except those that anyone can confidently say without offending any group.” He notably says, “There are those who worship a man who was once highly virtuous or famous, not only as God but even as the greatest and highest God. However, the majority and the wisest part reject all these and believe in a certain divine power that is unknown, far beyond what anyone can understand, spread throughout the entire world, not in size, but in virtue and power. They call Him the Father of all. To Him alone they attribute the beginnings, growths, actions, changes, and ends of everything. They give no divine honors to anyone other than Him.” Such was More's distance from the common beliefs of his era. Still, in the end, he reminds us that he doesn’t completely agree with all the customs and opinions of the Utopians he describes. We should respect this reservation and not roughly pull back the cover behind which he has chosen to hide.

Nor is he less in advance of popular opinion in his political and moral speculations. He would like to bring military glory into contempt; he would set all sorts of idle people to profitable occupation, including in the same class, priests, women, noblemen, gentlemen, and ‘sturdy and valiant beggars,’ that the labour of all may be reduced to six hours a day. His dislike of capital punishment, and plans for the reformation of offenders; his detestation of priests and lawyers (Compare his satirical observation: ‘They (the Utopians) have priests of exceeding holiness, and therefore very few.); his remark that ‘although every one may hear of ravenous dogs and wolves and cruel man-eaters, it is not easy to find states that are well and wisely governed,’ are curiously at variance with the notions of his age and indeed with his own life. There are many points in which he shows a modern feeling and a prophetic insight like Plato. He is a sanitary reformer; he maintains that civilized states have a right to the soil of waste countries; he is inclined to the opinion which places happiness in virtuous pleasures, but herein, as he thinks, not disagreeing from those other philosophers who define virtue to be a life according to nature. He extends the idea of happiness so as to include the happiness of others; and he argues ingeniously, ‘All men agree that we ought to make others happy; but if others, how much more ourselves!’ And still he thinks that there may be a more excellent way, but to this no man’s reason can attain unless heaven should inspire him with a higher truth. His ceremonies before marriage; his humane proposal that war should be carried on by assassinating the leaders of the enemy, may be compared to some of the paradoxes of Plato. He has a charming fancy, like the affinities of Greeks and barbarians in the Timaeus, that the Utopians learnt the language of the Greeks with the more readiness because they were originally of the same race with them. He is penetrated with the spirit of Plato, and quotes or adapts many thoughts both from the Republic and from the Timaeus. He prefers public duties to private, and is somewhat impatient of the importunity of relations. His citizens have no silver or gold of their own, but are ready enough to pay them to their mercenaries. There is nothing of which he is more contemptuous than the love of money. Gold is used for fetters of criminals, and diamonds and pearls for children’s necklaces (When the ambassadors came arrayed in gold and peacocks’ feathers ‘to the eyes of all the Utopians except very few, which had been in other countries for some reasonable cause, all that gorgeousness of apparel seemed shameful and reproachful. In so much that they most reverently saluted the vilest and most abject of them for lords—passing over the ambassadors themselves without any honour, judging them by their wearing of golden chains to be bondmen. You should have seen children also, that had cast away their pearls and precious stones, when they saw the like sticking upon the ambassadors’ caps, dig and push their mothers under the sides, saying thus to them—“Look, though he were a little child still.” But the mother; yea and that also in good earnest: “Peace, son,” saith she, “I think he be some of the ambassadors’ fools.”’)

He is also ahead of popular opinion in his political and moral ideas. He wants to make military glory looked down upon; he would assign all kinds of idle people to useful work, including priests, women, noblemen, gentlemen, and “sturdy and valiant beggars,” so that everyone’s labor could be limited to six hours a day. His aversion to capital punishment and his plans for reforming offenders; his dislike for priests and lawyers (Compare his satirical comment: “They (the Utopians) have priests of great holiness, and therefore very few.”); his observation that “even though everyone hears about savage dogs, wolves, and cruel man-eaters, it’s rare to find states that are well and wisely governed,” are strikingly at odds with the views of his time and even his own life. In many ways, he expresses modern sentiments and has a prophetic insight similar to Plato’s. He is a sanitary reformer; he argues that civilized states have a right to the land of waste countries; he leans towards the idea that happiness comes from virtuous pleasures, believing that this doesn’t contradict other philosophers who define virtue as living according to nature. He expands the concept of happiness to include the happiness of others, cleverly arguing, “Everyone agrees we should make others happy; but if we should do that for others, how much more for ourselves!” Still, he believes there could be a better way, but no one can reach this understanding unless heaven inspires them with a higher truth. His rituals before marriage, and his humane suggestion that wars be waged by eliminating enemy leaders, can be compared to some of Plato's paradoxes. He has a delightful notion, much like the relationships between Greeks and barbarians in the Timaeus, that the Utopians learned Greek more easily because they were originally from the same race. He is infused with the spirit of Plato and quotes or adapts many ideas from both the Republic and the Timaeus. He favors public duties over private ones and shows impatience with the demands of family. His citizens do not possess silver or gold, but they are quick to pay their mercenaries. There is nothing he holds in greater contempt than the love of money. Gold is used to shackle criminals, and diamonds and pearls are made into children’s necklaces. When the ambassadors arrived dressed in gold and peacock feathers, it seemed shameful and disgraceful to all the Utopians except for a few who had been in other countries for valid reasons. They respectfully greeted the lowest and most despised among them as lords, ignoring the ambassadors themselves, judging them by their gold chains as if they were captives. You should have seen the children who had tossed aside their pearls and precious stones when they saw similar items adorning the ambassadors’ caps, digging at their mothers’ sides and saying, “Look, although he is still a little child.” But the mother, being serious, replied, “Be quiet, son. I think he must be one of the ambassadors’ fools.”

Like Plato he is full of satirical reflections on governments and princes; on the state of the world and of knowledge. The hero of his discourse (Hythloday) is very unwilling to become a minister of state, considering that he would lose his independence and his advice would never be heeded (Compare an exquisite passage, of which the conclusion is as follows: ‘And verily it is naturally given...suppressed and ended.’) He ridicules the new logic of his time; the Utopians could never be made to understand the doctrine of Second Intentions (‘For they have not devised one of all those rules of restrictions, amplifications, and suppositions, very wittily invented in the small Logicals, which here our children in every place do learn. Furthermore, they were never yet able to find out the second intentions; insomuch that none of them all could ever see man himself in common, as they call him, though he be (as you know) bigger than was ever any giant, yea, and pointed to of us even with our finger.’) He is very severe on the sports of the gentry; the Utopians count ‘hunting the lowest, the vilest, and the most abject part of butchery.’ He quotes the words of the Republic in which the philosopher is described ‘standing out of the way under a wall until the driving storm of sleet and rain be overpast,’ which admit of a singular application to More’s own fate; although, writing twenty years before (about the year 1514), he can hardly be supposed to have foreseen this. There is no touch of satire which strikes deeper than his quiet remark that the greater part of the precepts of Christ are more at variance with the lives of ordinary Christians than the discourse of Utopia (‘And yet the most part of them is more dissident from the manners of the world now a days, than my communication was. But preachers, sly and wily men, following your counsel (as I suppose) because they saw men evil-willing to frame their manners to Christ’s rule, they have wrested and wried his doctrine, and, like a rule of lead, have applied it to men’s manners, that by some means at the least way, they might agree together.’)

Like Plato, he has plenty of satirical thoughts about governments and leaders; about the state of the world and knowledge. The main character in his discussion (Hythloday) is very reluctant to take a government position, believing that he would lose his independence and his advice would never be taken seriously (Compare an exquisite passage, of which the conclusion is as follows: ‘And verily it is naturally given...suppressed and ended.’) He mocks the new logic of his time; the Utopians could never understand the idea of Second Intentions (‘For they haven’t come up with any of those rules of restrictions, amplifications, and suppositions that are cleverly invented in the small Logicals, which our children learn everywhere today. Furthermore, they have never been able to figure out the second intentions; so none of them could ever see man himself in general, as they call him, even though he is (as you know) bigger than any giant ever was, and pointed out by us using our fingers.’) He is very critical of the gentry's pastimes; the Utopians view ‘hunting as the lowest, most despicable form of butchery.’ He quotes words from the Republic where the philosopher is described as ‘standing out of the way under a wall until the storm of sleet and rain passes by,’ which can be uniquely applied to More’s own fate; although he wrote this twenty years earlier (around 1514), he can hardly have foreseen this. There’s no satirical point that strikes deeper than his calm observation that most of Christ’s teachings are more at odds with the lives of regular Christians than the discussions in Utopia (‘And yet most of them are more disconnected from the ways of the world these days than my conversation was. But preachers, sly and crafty men, following your advice (as I suppose) because they saw that people were reluctant to shape their lives according to Christ’s teachings, have twisted and bent his doctrine, and, like a rule of lead, have adjusted it to fit men’s behaviors so that, by some means at least, they might come to some sort of agreement.’)

The ‘New Atlantis’ is only a fragment, and far inferior in merit to the ‘Utopia.’ The work is full of ingenuity, but wanting in creative fancy, and by no means impresses the reader with a sense of credibility. In some places Lord Bacon is characteristically different from Sir Thomas More, as, for example, in the external state which he attributes to the governor of Solomon’s House, whose dress he minutely describes, while to Sir Thomas More such trappings appear simple ridiculous. Yet, after this programme of dress, Bacon adds the beautiful trait, ‘that he had a look as though he pitied men.’ Several things are borrowed by him from the Timaeus; but he has injured the unity of style by adding thoughts and passages which are taken from the Hebrew Scriptures.

The ‘New Atlantis’ is just a fragment and doesn’t compare to the ‘Utopia.’ The work shows a lot of cleverness but lacks imaginative flair and doesn’t really make the reader feel it’s believable. In some aspects, Lord Bacon stands out in a way that’s different from Sir Thomas More; for instance, he carefully describes the attire of the governor of Solomon’s House, while Sir Thomas More finds such details utterly silly. Yet, after detailing the outfit, Bacon nicely notes that the governor had a look of someone who felt compassion for people. He borrows several ideas from the Timaeus, but he disrupts the overall style by including thoughts and passages from the Hebrew Scriptures.

The ‘City of the Sun’ written by Campanella (1568-1639), a Dominican friar, several years after the ‘New Atlantis’ of Bacon, has many resemblances to the Republic of Plato. The citizens have wives and children in common; their marriages are of the same temporary sort, and are arranged by the magistrates from time to time. They do not, however, adopt his system of lots, but bring together the best natures, male and female, ‘according to philosophical rules.’ The infants until two years of age are brought up by their mothers in public temples; and since individuals for the most part educate their children badly, at the beginning of their third year they are committed to the care of the State, and are taught at first, not out of books, but from paintings of all kinds, which are emblazoned on the walls of the city. The city has six interior circuits of walls, and an outer wall which is the seventh. On this outer wall are painted the figures of legislators and philosophers, and on each of the interior walls the symbols or forms of some one of the sciences are delineated. The women are, for the most part, trained, like the men, in warlike and other exercises; but they have two special occupations of their own. After a battle, they and the boys soothe and relieve the wounded warriors; also they encourage them with embraces and pleasant words. Some elements of the Christian or Catholic religion are preserved among them. The life of the Apostles is greatly admired by this people because they had all things in common; and the short prayer which Jesus Christ taught men is used in their worship. It is a duty of the chief magistrates to pardon sins, and therefore the whole people make secret confession of them to the magistrates, and they to their chief, who is a sort of Rector Metaphysicus; and by this means he is well informed of all that is going on in the minds of men. After confession, absolution is granted to the citizens collectively, but no one is mentioned by name. There also exists among them a practice of perpetual prayer, performed by a succession of priests, who change every hour. Their religion is a worship of God in Trinity, that is of Wisdom, Love and Power, but without any distinction of persons. They behold in the sun the reflection of His glory; mere graven images they reject, refusing to fall under the ‘tyranny’ of idolatry.

The ‘City of the Sun’ written by Campanella (1568-1639), a Dominican friar, was inspired by Bacon's ‘New Atlantis’ and shares many similarities with Plato's Republic. The citizens have their wives and children in common; their marriages are temporary and are arranged by the magistrates periodically. However, they don’t adopt his system of lots but instead pair the best individuals, both male and female, ‘according to philosophical rules.’ Infants up to two years old are raised by their mothers in public temples. Since individuals usually educate their children poorly, once they reach three years old, they are handed over to the State for education, which begins not with books but through various paintings displayed on city walls. The city has six inner walls, with a seventh outer wall. This outer wall features paintings of legislators and philosophers, while each inner wall displays symbols or representations of various sciences. Women, like men, are mostly trained in military and other skills, but they have two specific roles. After a battle, they and the boys care for the wounded warriors and comfort them with hugs and kind words. Some aspects of the Christian or Catholic religion remain among them. They greatly admire the life of the Apostles because they shared everything; the short prayer that Jesus taught is part of their worship. The chief magistrates are responsible for granting forgiveness for sins, so citizens confess their sins to the magistrates, who then report to their leader, a sort of Rector Metaphysicus, keeping him informed about everyone’s thoughts. After confession, the group is collectively absolved, but no individual is named. They also have a tradition of continuous prayer led by rotating priests every hour. Their religion is a worship of God in Trinity, representing Wisdom, Love, and Power, but without distinguishing between persons. They see the reflection of His glory in the sun and reject mere idols, refusing to succumb to the ‘tyranny’ of idolatry.

Many details are given about their customs of eating and drinking, about their mode of dressing, their employments, their wars. Campanella looks forward to a new mode of education, which is to be a study of nature, and not of Aristotle. He would not have his citizens waste their time in the consideration of what he calls ‘the dead signs of things.’ He remarks that he who knows one science only, does not really know that one any more than the rest, and insists strongly on the necessity of a variety of knowledge. More scholars are turned out in the City of the Sun in one year than by contemporary methods in ten or fifteen. He evidently believes, like Bacon, that henceforward natural science will play a great part in education, a hope which seems hardly to have been realized, either in our own or in any former age; at any rate the fulfilment of it has been long deferred.

Many details are provided about their eating and drinking customs, their clothing styles, their jobs, and their wars. Campanella anticipates a new approach to education, which would focus on studying nature instead of Aristotle. He believes that his citizens shouldn't waste their time pondering what he calls "the dead signs of things." He notes that someone who knows only one science doesn't truly understand it any better than the others and strongly emphasizes the importance of having a diverse range of knowledge. More scholars are produced in the City of the Sun in one year than through contemporary methods in ten or fifteen years. He clearly believes, like Bacon, that natural science will play a significant role in education moving forward, a hope that seems to have been largely unfulfilled, both in our time and in the past; at any rate, achieving it has been long postponed.

There is a good deal of ingenuity and even originality in this work, and a most enlightened spirit pervades it. But it has little or no charm of style, and falls very far short of the ‘New Atlantis’ of Bacon, and still more of the ‘Utopia’ of Sir Thomas More. It is full of inconsistencies, and though borrowed from Plato, shows but a superficial acquaintance with his writings. It is a work such as one might expect to have been written by a philosopher and man of genius who was also a friar, and who had spent twenty-seven years of his life in a prison of the Inquisition. The most interesting feature of the book, common to Plato and Sir Thomas More, is the deep feeling which is shown by the writer, of the misery and ignorance prevailing among the lower classes in his own time. Campanella takes note of Aristotle’s answer to Plato’s community of property, that in a society where all things are common, no individual would have any motive to work (Arist. Pol.): he replies, that his citizens being happy and contented in themselves (they are required to work only four hours a day), will have greater regard for their fellows than exists among men at present. He thinks, like Plato, that if he abolishes private feelings and interests, a great public feeling will take their place.

This work shows a lot of creativity and originality, and it has a very enlightened perspective. However, it lacks charm in its writing style and falls significantly short of Bacon's 'New Atlantis' and even more so of Sir Thomas More's 'Utopia.' It contains many inconsistencies and, while it draws from Plato, only demonstrates a shallow understanding of his writings. It seems like something that could have been written by a philosopher and genius who was also a friar and had spent twenty-seven years in an Inquisition prison. One of the most interesting aspects of the book, shared with Plato and Sir Thomas More, is the writer's deep awareness of the suffering and ignorance among the lower classes of his time. Campanella references Aristotle's response to Plato's idea of communal property, noting that in a society where everything is shared, individuals would have no incentive to work (Arist. Pol.). He counters that his citizens, who are happy and satisfied with their lives (as they only need to work four hours a day), will care more about each other than people do today. Like Plato, he believes that by eliminating private desires and interests, a strong sense of public spirit will emerge in their place.

Other writings on ideal states, such as the ‘Oceana’ of Harrington, in which the Lord Archon, meaning Cromwell, is described, not as he was, but as he ought to have been; or the ‘Argenis’ of Barclay, which is an historical allegory of his own time, are too unlike Plato to be worth mentioning. More interesting than either of these, and far more Platonic in style and thought, is Sir John Eliot’s ‘Monarchy of Man,’ in which the prisoner of the Tower, no longer able ‘to be a politician in the land of his birth,’ turns away from politics to view ‘that other city which is within him,’ and finds on the very threshold of the grave that the secret of human happiness is the mastery of self. The change of government in the time of the English Commonwealth set men thinking about first principles, and gave rise to many works of this class...The great original genius of Swift owes nothing to Plato; nor is there any trace in the conversation or in the works of Dr. Johnson of any acquaintance with his writings. He probably would have refuted Plato without reading him, in the same fashion in which he supposed himself to have refuted Bishop Berkeley’s theory of the non-existence of matter. If we except the so-called English Platonists, or rather Neo-Platonists, who never understood their master, and the writings of Coleridge, who was to some extent a kindred spirit, Plato has left no permanent impression on English literature.

Other writings on ideal states, like Harrington’s ‘Oceana,’ which describes Lord Archon, meaning Cromwell, not as he was but as he should have been, or Barclay’s ‘Argenis,’ an allegorical reflection of his own era, are too different from Plato to be worth discussing. More interesting than either, and much more Platonic in style and thought, is Sir John Eliot’s ‘Monarchy of Man,’ where the prisoner in the Tower, unable to ‘be a politician in the land of his birth,’ turns away from politics to explore ‘that other city which is within him,’ discovering at the very edge of death that the secret to human happiness lies in mastering oneself. The shift in government during the English Commonwealth prompted people to reflect on fundamental principles, leading to many works of this nature. The exceptional genius of Swift is unrelated to Plato, and there's no indication in the conversations or writings of Dr. Johnson that he was familiar with Plato’s work. He likely would have argued against Plato without ever reading him, just as he thought he had disproven Bishop Berkeley’s theory of the non-existence of matter. If we exclude the so-called English Platonists, or rather Neo-Platonists, who never really grasped their master, and the writings of Coleridge, who shared some similar thoughts, Plato has made no lasting impact on English literature.

7. Human life and conduct are affected by ideals in the same way that they are affected by the examples of eminent men. Neither the one nor the other are immediately applicable to practice, but there is a virtue flowing from them which tends to raise individuals above the common routine of society or trade, and to elevate States above the mere interests of commerce or the necessities of self-defence. Like the ideals of art they are partly framed by the omission of particulars; they require to be viewed at a certain distance, and are apt to fade away if we attempt to approach them. They gain an imaginary distinctness when embodied in a State or in a system of philosophy, but they still remain the visions of ‘a world unrealized.’ More striking and obvious to the ordinary mind are the examples of great men, who have served their own generation and are remembered in another. Even in our own family circle there may have been some one, a woman, or even a child, in whose face has shone forth a goodness more than human. The ideal then approaches nearer to us, and we fondly cling to it. The ideal of the past, whether of our own past lives or of former states of society, has a singular fascination for the minds of many. Too late we learn that such ideals cannot be recalled, though the recollection of them may have a humanizing influence on other times. But the abstractions of philosophy are to most persons cold and vacant; they give light without warmth; they are like the full moon in the heavens when there are no stars appearing. Men cannot live by thought alone; the world of sense is always breaking in upon them. They are for the most part confined to a corner of earth, and see but a little way beyond their own home or place of abode; they ‘do not lift up their eyes to the hills’; they are not awake when the dawn appears. But in Plato we have reached a height from which a man may look into the distance and behold the future of the world and of philosophy. The ideal of the State and of the life of the philosopher; the ideal of an education continuing through life and extending equally to both sexes; the ideal of the unity and correlation of knowledge; the faith in good and immortality—are the vacant forms of light on which Plato is seeking to fix the eye of mankind.

7. Human life and behavior are influenced by ideals just like they are by the examples set by great individuals. Neither of these is easily put into practice, but they both have a virtue that lifts people above the daily grind of society or work, and elevates nations beyond just the interests of trade or self-defense. Similar to the ideals in art, they are partly shaped by leaving out details; they need to be viewed from a distance and tend to disappear if we try to get too close. They take on an imagined clarity when represented in a nation or a philosophical system, but they still remain visions of 'a world not yet realized.' More noticeable and familiar to most people are the examples of exceptional individuals, who have made an impact in their own time and are remembered later. Even within our own families, there may have been someone—a woman or even a child—whose presence radiated a goodness that seems superhuman. This ideal then feels closer to us, and we cherish it. The ideals of the past, whether from our own experiences or from previous societies, captivate many minds. We often realize too late that these ideals can't be brought back, although remembering them can humanize other times. But for most, philosophical ideas feel cold and empty; they provide insight without warmth; they are like a bright full moon in a sky without stars. People can't survive on thoughts alone; the tangible world constantly interrupts them. Most people are limited to a small area and see only a little beyond their own home; they 'do not lift their eyes to the hills'; they miss the dawn when it arrives. However, in Plato, we reach a perspective from which one can gaze into the distance and envision the future of the world and philosophy. The ideal of the State and the philosopher’s life; the ideal of lifelong education open to all; the ideal of the unity and connection of knowledge; the belief in goodness and immortality—these are the empty forms of light that Plato aims to focus humanity’s attention on.

8. Two other ideals, which never appeared above the horizon in Greek Philosophy, float before the minds of men in our own day: one seen more clearly than formerly, as though each year and each generation brought us nearer to some great change; the other almost in the same degree retiring from view behind the laws of nature, as if oppressed by them, but still remaining a silent hope of we know not what hidden in the heart of man. The first ideal is the future of the human race in this world; the second the future of the individual in another. The first is the more perfect realization of our own present life; the second, the abnegation of it: the one, limited by experience, the other, transcending it. Both of them have been and are powerful motives of action; there are a few in whom they have taken the place of all earthly interests. The hope of a future for the human race at first sight seems to be the more disinterested, the hope of individual existence the more egotistical, of the two motives. But when men have learned to resolve their hope of a future either for themselves or for the world into the will of God—‘not my will but Thine,’ the difference between them falls away; and they may be allowed to make either of them the basis of their lives, according to their own individual character or temperament. There is as much faith in the willingness to work for an unseen future in this world as in another. Neither is it inconceivable that some rare nature may feel his duty to another generation, or to another century, almost as strongly as to his own, or that living always in the presence of God, he may realize another world as vividly as he does this.

8. Two other ideals, which never appeared in Greek Philosophy, are present in our minds today: one is clearer than before, as if each year and generation brings us closer to some significant change; the other is receding behind the laws of nature, as if weighed down by them, but still remains a quiet hope we can't quite identify in the heart of humanity. The first ideal is about the future of the human race in this world; the second is about the future of the individual in another. The first is a more complete realization of our current life; the second is about stepping away from it: one is limited by experience, while the other goes beyond it. Both have been and continue to be strong motivating factors; there are a few individuals for whom these ideals have replaced all earthly concerns. At first glance, the hope for the future of humanity seems more selfless, while the hope for individual existence appears more selfish. However, when people learn to align their hopes for the future—either for themselves or for the world—with God's will—‘not my will but Thine,’ the distinction between the two fades; and they may base their lives on either one, depending on their individual character or temperament. There is just as much faith in striving for an unseen future in this world as in the next. It's also possible that some rare individuals may feel just as strongly responsible for another generation or century as they do for their own, or that by living consistently in the presence of God, they may perceive another world as vividly as this one.

The greatest of all ideals may, or rather must be conceived by us under similitudes derived from human qualities; although sometimes, like the Jewish prophets, we may dash away these figures of speech and describe the nature of God only in negatives. These again by degrees acquire a positive meaning. It would be well, if when meditating on the higher truths either of philosophy or religion, we sometimes substituted one form of expression for another, lest through the necessities of language we should become the slaves of mere words.

The greatest ideals must be understood through similarities based on human qualities; although sometimes, like the Jewish prophets, we might strip away these figures of speech and describe God's nature only in negative terms. Over time, these negatives can take on a positive meaning. It would be beneficial if, when reflecting on the deeper truths of philosophy or religion, we occasionally swapped one expression for another, so that, due to the limits of language, we don’t become trapped by mere words.

There is a third ideal, not the same, but akin to these, which has a place in the home and heart of every believer in the religion of Christ, and in which men seem to find a nearer and more familiar truth, the Divine man, the Son of Man, the Saviour of mankind, Who is the first-born and head of the whole family in heaven and earth, in Whom the Divine and human, that which is without and that which is within the range of our earthly faculties, are indissolubly united. Neither is this divine form of goodness wholly separable from the ideal of the Christian Church, which is said in the New Testament to be ‘His body,’ or at variance with those other images of good which Plato sets before us. We see Him in a figure only, and of figures of speech we select but a few, and those the simplest, to be the expression of Him. We behold Him in a picture, but He is not there. We gather up the fragments of His discourses, but neither do they represent Him as He truly was. His dwelling is neither in heaven nor earth, but in the heart of man. This is that image which Plato saw dimly in the distance, which, when existing among men, he called, in the language of Homer, ‘the likeness of God,’ the likeness of a nature which in all ages men have felt to be greater and better than themselves, and which in endless forms, whether derived from Scripture or nature, from the witness of history or from the human heart, regarded as a person or not as a person, with or without parts or passions, existing in space or not in space, is and will always continue to be to mankind the Idea of Good.

There’s a third ideal that, while different, is related to these and holds a special place in the minds and hearts of every believer in Christ. This ideal represents the Divine man, the Son of Man, the Savior of humanity, who is the firstborn and head of the entire family in heaven and on earth. In Him, the divine and human, the external and internal aspects that fit within our earthly understanding, are inseparably connected. This divine form of goodness is also linked to the ideal of the Christian Church, which is referred to in the New Testament as ‘His body,’ and is not in conflict with the other representations of goodness that Plato presents to us. We see Him only through a representation, and from the figures of speech we have, we choose just a few, the simplest ones, to express Him. We see Him in an image, but He isn’t fully present there. We piece together fragments of His teachings, but they still don’t capture Him as He truly was. His true home isn’t in heaven or on earth, but within the heart of humanity. This is the image that Plato saw faintly in the distance. When he referred to it, he used Homer's term ‘the likeness of God,’ reflecting a nature that throughout history people have felt is greater and better than themselves. This idea exists in endless forms, drawn from Scripture or nature, from historical testimony or from the human heart, whether seen as a person or not, with or without emotions or traits, existing in space or not in space. This remains, and will always be, the Ideal of Good for mankind.

THE REPUBLIC.

PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE.

Socrates, who is the narrator.

Socrates, the narrator.

Glaucon.

Glaucon.

Adeimantus.

Adeimantus.

Polemarchus.

Polemarchus.

Cephalus.

Cephalus.

Thrasymachus.

Thrasymachus.

Cleitophon.

Cleitophon.

And others who are mute auditors.

And others who are silent listeners.

The scene is laid in the house of Cephalus at the Piraeus; and the whole dialogue is narrated by Socrates the day after it actually took place to Timaeus, Hermocrates, Critias, and a nameless person, who are introduced in the Timaeus.

The scene takes place in Cephalus's house at Piraeus, and Socrates recounts the entire dialogue the day after it happened to Timaeus, Hermocrates, Critias, and an unnamed person who are mentioned in the Timaeus.

BOOK I.

I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with Glaucon the son of Ariston, that I might offer up my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis.); and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the festival, which was a new thing. I was delighted with the procession of the inhabitants; but that of the Thracians was equally, if not more, beautiful. When we had finished our prayers and viewed the spectacle, we turned in the direction of the city; and at that instant Polemarchus the son of Cephalus chanced to catch sight of us from a distance as we were starting on our way home, and told his servant to run and bid us wait for him. The servant took hold of me by the cloak behind, and said: Polemarchus desires you to wait.

I went down to the Piraeus yesterday with Glaucon, the son of Ariston, to offer my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis); and also because I wanted to see how they would celebrate the festival, which was something new. I was impressed by the locals' procession; but the Thracians’ was just as beautiful, if not more so. After we finished our prayers and enjoyed the spectacle, we started heading back to the city. At that moment, Polemarchus, the son of Cephalus, spotted us from a distance as we were on our way home and told his servant to run and ask us to wait for him. The servant grabbed me by the cloak from behind and said, "Polemarchus wants you to wait."

I turned round, and asked him where his master was.

I turned around and asked him where his boss was.

There he is, said the youth, coming after you, if you will only wait.

There he is, the young man said, following you, if you just wait a moment.

Certainly we will, said Glaucon; and in a few minutes Polemarchus appeared, and with him Adeimantus, Glaucon’s brother, Niceratus the son of Nicias, and several others who had been at the procession.

"Sure, we will," Glaucon replied. A few minutes later, Polemarchus showed up, along with Adeimantus, Glaucon’s brother, Niceratus the son of Nicias, and a few others who had been at the procession.

Polemarchus said to me: I perceive, Socrates, that you and your companion are already on your way to the city.

Polemarchus said to me, "I see, Socrates, that you and your friend are already heading to the city."

You are not far wrong, I said.

You’re not entirely wrong, I said.

But do you see, he rejoined, how many we are?

But do you see how many of us there are?

Of course.

Sure.

And are you stronger than all these? for if not, you will have to remain where you are.

And are you stronger than all these? Because if not, you'll have to stay where you are.

May there not be the alternative, I said, that we may persuade you to let us go?

May there be a chance, I said, for us to convince you to let us go?

But can you persuade us, if we refuse to listen to you? he said.

But how can you convince us if we don't want to hear you? he said.

Certainly not, replied Glaucon.

Certainly not, Glaucon replied.

Then we are not going to listen; of that you may be assured.

Then we’re not going to listen; you can count on that.

Adeimantus added: Has no one told you of the torch-race on horseback in honour of the goddess which will take place in the evening?

Adeimantus added: Has no one mentioned the torch race on horseback in honor of the goddess that will happen this evening?

With horses! I replied: That is a novelty. Will horsemen carry torches and pass them one to another during the race?

With horses! I replied: That's a new idea. Will the riders carry torches and pass them to each other during the race?

Yes, said Polemarchus, and not only so, but a festival will be celebrated at night, which you certainly ought to see. Let us rise soon after supper and see this festival; there will be a gathering of young men, and we will have a good talk. Stay then, and do not be perverse.

Yes, Polemarchus said, and not only that, but there’s a festival happening tonight that you really should check out. Let’s get up shortly after dinner and go see this festival; a bunch of young guys will be there, and we can have a great conversation. So stay, and don’t be difficult.

Glaucon said: I suppose, since you insist, that we must.

Glaucon said, "I guess, since you’re insisting, we have to."

Very good, I replied.

Sounds great, I replied.

Accordingly we went with Polemarchus to his house; and there we found his brothers Lysias and Euthydemus, and with them Thrasymachus the Chalcedonian, Charmantides the Paeanian, and Cleitophon the son of Aristonymus. There too was Cephalus the father of Polemarchus, whom I had not seen for a long time, and I thought him very much aged. He was seated on a cushioned chair, and had a garland on his head, for he had been sacrificing in the court; and there were some other chairs in the room arranged in a semicircle, upon which we sat down by him. He saluted me eagerly, and then he said:—

So we went with Polemarchus to his house, where we found his brothers Lysias and Euthydemus, along with Thrasymachus from Chalcedon, Charmantides from Paeania, and Cleitophon, the son of Aristonymus. Also there was Cephalus, Polemarchus’ father, whom I hadn’t seen in a long time, and he looked quite aged. He was sitting in a cushioned chair with a garland on his head because he had been making sacrifices in the courtyard. There were some other chairs set up in a semicircle, and we sat down next to him. He greeted me warmly and then said:—

You don’t come to see me, Socrates, as often as you ought: If I were still able to go and see you I would not ask you to come to me. But at my age I can hardly get to the city, and therefore you should come oftener to the Piraeus. For let me tell you, that the more the pleasures of the body fade away, the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation. Do not then deny my request, but make our house your resort and keep company with these young men; we are old friends, and you will be quite at home with us.

You don’t visit me, Socrates, as often as you should. If I could still come to see you, I wouldn’t ask you to come to me. But at my age, I can barely make it to the city, so you should come to Piraeus more often. Let me tell you, the more the pleasures of the body fade, the more I enjoy and appreciate conversation. So please don’t refuse my request; make our house your go-to place and hang out with these young men. We are old friends, and you will feel completely at home with us.

I replied: There is nothing which for my part I like better, Cephalus, than conversing with aged men; for I regard them as travellers who have gone a journey which I too may have to go, and of whom I ought to enquire, whether the way is smooth and easy, or rugged and difficult. And this is a question which I should like to ask of you who have arrived at that time which the poets call the ‘threshold of old age’—Is life harder towards the end, or what report do you give of it?

I said: There's nothing I appreciate more than talking with older men, Cephalus. I see them as travelers who have taken a journey that I might also have to take, and I’d like to ask them if the path is smooth and easy or rough and challenging. And this is a question I want to pose to you, since you've reached what the poets refer to as the "threshold of old age"—Is life more difficult at the end, or what do you think about it?

I will tell you, Socrates, he said, what my own feeling is. Men of my age flock together; we are birds of a feather, as the old proverb says; and at our meetings the tale of my acquaintance commonly is—I cannot eat, I cannot drink; the pleasures of youth and love are fled away: there was a good time once, but now that is gone, and life is no longer life. Some complain of the slights which are put upon them by relations, and they will tell you sadly of how many evils their old age is the cause. But to me, Socrates, these complainers seem to blame that which is not really in fault. For if old age were the cause, I too being old, and every other old man, would have felt as they do. But this is not my own experience, nor that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet Sophocles, when in answer to the question, How does love suit with age, Sophocles,—are you still the man you were? Peace, he replied; most gladly have I escaped the thing of which you speak; I feel as if I had escaped from a mad and furious master. His words have often occurred to my mind since, and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them. For certainly old age has a great sense of calm and freedom; when the passions relax their hold, then, as Sophocles says, we are freed from the grasp not of one mad master only, but of many. The truth is, Socrates, that these regrets, and also the complaints about relations, are to be attributed to the same cause, which is not old age, but men’s characters and tempers; for he who is of a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the pressure of age, but to him who is of an opposite disposition youth and age are equally a burden.

“I’ll share my thoughts with you, Socrates,” he said. “Men my age gather together; we’re similar, as the saying goes; and during our meetings, I usually hear the same story—‘I can’t eat, I can’t drink; the joys of youth and love are gone. There was a good time once, but now that’s over, and life feels less like life.’ Some complain about the neglect they face from family, and they’ll sadly recount the many struggles that their old age brings. But to me, Socrates, these whiners seem to blame something that isn’t actually at fault. If old age were the cause, then I, too, being old, and every other old man, would feel like they do. But that’s not my experience, nor that of others I’ve known. I vividly remember the aged poet Sophocles, when asked, ‘How does love fit with age? Are you still the man you once were?’ He replied, ‘Peace, I’m glad I’ve escaped from what you speak of; I feel like I’ve been freed from a mad and raging master.’ His words have often come to my mind since, and they seem just as valid to me now as they did when he first said them. Old age certainly brings a sense of calm and freedom; when our passions loosen their grip, then, as Sophocles puts it, we are liberated not just from one crazy master, but from many. The truth is, Socrates, that these regrets and complaints about family arise from the same source, which isn’t old age but rather people’s characters and temperaments. A person with a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the weight of aging, but for someone with a different mindset, both youth and age can feel burdensome.”

I listened in admiration, and wanting to draw him out, that he might go on—Yes, Cephalus, I said: but I rather suspect that people in general are not convinced by you when you speak thus; they think that old age sits lightly upon you, not because of your happy disposition, but because you are rich, and wealth is well known to be a great comforter.

I listened with admiration, and wanting to encourage him to continue—Yes, Cephalus, I said: but I have a feeling that most people aren’t convinced by what you say; they believe that old age doesn’t weigh on you, not because of your positive outlook, but because you’re wealthy, and everyone knows that money is a great source of comfort.

You are right, he replied; they are not convinced: and there is something in what they say; not, however, so much as they imagine. I might answer them as Themistocles answered the Seriphian who was abusing him and saying that he was famous, not for his own merits but because he was an Athenian: ‘If you had been a native of my country or I of yours, neither of us would have been famous.’ And to those who are not rich and are impatient of old age, the same reply may be made; for to the good poor man old age cannot be a light burden, nor can a bad rich man ever have peace with himself.

"You’re right," he said; "they're not convinced, and there’s some truth in what they’re saying, though not as much as they think. I could respond like Themistocles did to the Seriphian who was insulting him by claiming he was famous not for his own qualities but because he was an Athenian: ‘If you had been from my country or I from yours, neither of us would have been famous.’ The same can be said to those who aren’t wealthy and are frustrated with aging; for a good poor person can't easily bear the weight of old age, while a bad rich person can never find peace within themselves."

May I ask, Cephalus, whether your fortune was for the most part inherited or acquired by you?

May I ask, Cephalus, whether your wealth was mostly inherited or earned by you?

Acquired! Socrates; do you want to know how much I acquired? In the art of making money I have been midway between my father and grandfather: for my grandfather, whose name I bear, doubled and trebled the value of his patrimony, that which he inherited being much what I possess now; but my father Lysanias reduced the property below what it is at present: and I shall be satisfied if I leave to these my sons not less but a little more than I received.

Acquired! Socrates, do you want to know how much I’ve got? In the business of making money, I’m somewhere in between my father and grandfather: my grandfather, who I’m named after, doubled and tripled the value of what he inherited, which is about what I have now; but my father Lysanias let our property decrease to less than what it is now. I’ll be happy if I can leave my sons not less, but just a little more than what I received.

That was why I asked you the question, I replied, because I see that you are indifferent about money, which is a characteristic rather of those who have inherited their fortunes than of those who have acquired them; the makers of fortunes have a second love of money as a creation of their own, resembling the affection of authors for their own poems, or of parents for their children, besides that natural love of it for the sake of use and profit which is common to them and all men. And hence they are very bad company, for they can talk about nothing but the praises of wealth.

That's why I asked you the question, I replied, because I can tell you're indifferent about money, which is more typical of those who have inherited their wealth rather than those who have earned it. People who create their own fortunes often have a special attachment to money, similar to how authors feel about their own poems or parents feel about their children, along with the basic desire for it for practical use and profit that everyone shares. This makes them pretty boring to be around, since they can only talk about how great money is.

That is true, he said.

That's true, he said.

Yes, that is very true, but may I ask another question?—What do you consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaped from your wealth?

Yes, that’s absolutely true, but can I ask another question?—What do you think is the greatest blessing you’ve gained from your wealth?

One, he said, of which I could not expect easily to convince others. For let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks himself to be near death, fears and cares enter into his mind which he never had before; the tales of a world below and the punishment which is exacted there of deeds done here were once a laughing matter to him, but now he is tormented with the thought that they may be true: either from the weakness of age, or because he is now drawing nearer to that other place, he has a clearer view of these things; suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him, and he begins to reflect and consider what wrongs he has done to others. And when he finds that the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like a child start up in his sleep for fear, and he is filled with dark forebodings. But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age:

One, he said, was something I couldn’t easily convince others about. Let me tell you, Socrates, when someone thinks they are near death, fears and worries creep into their mind that they never had before; the stories of an afterlife and the punishments for wrongdoings here once seemed silly to him, but now he’s tormented by the thought that they might be true. Either because of the frailty of old age, or because he’s getting closer to that other realm, he sees these things more clearly; suspicions and fears crowd around him, and he starts to think about the wrongs he has done to others. When he realizes how many wrongs he has committed, he may suddenly wake up in a panic, like a child, filled with dark fears. But for someone who is aware of no wrongdoing, sweet hope, as Pindar beautifully puts it, is the gentle comforter of old age.

‘Hope,’ he says, ‘cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey;—hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.’

‘Hope,’ he says, ‘nourishes the spirit of someone who lives righteously and in purity, and is the caregiver of his life and the partner on his journey;—hope that is strongest in calming the restless soul of humanity.’

How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest.

How admirable are his words! The great blessing of wealth, which I don’t say applies to everyone, but to a good person, is that they haven't had to deceive or cheat others, whether on purpose or by mistake; and when they leave this world, they don't worry about offerings owed to the gods or debts to other people. This peace of mind is significantly enhanced by having money; therefore, I believe that when comparing the many benefits wealth can provide, this peace of mind is the greatest for a sensible person.

Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it?—to speak the truth and to pay your debts—no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition.

Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but when it comes to justice, what is it? Is it just telling the truth and paying your debts—nothing more than that? And aren’t there exceptions to this? If a friend, when he's sane, leaves his weapons with me and then asks for them when he’s not in his right mind, should I give them back to him? No one would say that I should or that it would be right for me to do so, just like they wouldn't say I should always tell the truth to someone in his condition.

You are quite right, he replied.

"You’re totally right," he said.

But then, I said, speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct definition of justice.

But then, I said, being honest and paying what you owe isn’t an accurate definition of justice.

Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed, said Polemarchus interposing.

"That's right, Socrates, if we trust Simonides," Polemarchus interrupted.

I fear, said Cephalus, that I must go now, for I have to look after the sacrifices, and I hand over the argument to Polemarchus and the company.

"I’m afraid I have to leave now," Cephalus said, "because I need to take care of the sacrifices. I'll pass the discussion on to Polemarchus and the others."

Is not Polemarchus your heir? I said.

Isn't Polemarchus your heir? I said.

To be sure, he answered, and went away laughing to the sacrifices.

To be sure, he replied, and walked away laughing toward the sacrifices.

Tell me then, O thou heir of the argument, what did Simonides say, and according to you truly say, about justice?

Tell me then, you heir of the debate, what did Simonides say, and according to you truly say, about justice?

He said that the repayment of a debt is just, and in saying so he appears to me to be right.

He said that paying back a debt is fair, and I believe he’s right about that.

I should be sorry to doubt the word of such a wise and inspired man, but his meaning, though probably clear to you, is the reverse of clear to me. For he certainly does not mean, as we were just now saying, that I ought to return a deposit of arms or of anything else to one who asks for it when he is not in his right senses; and yet a deposit cannot be denied to be a debt.

I would regret doubting the word of such a wise and inspired person, but his meaning, while likely clear to you, is completely unclear to me. He definitely doesn’t mean, as we were just saying, that I should give back a deposit of weapons or anything else to someone who asks for it when they're not in their right mind; and yet, a deposit can’t be denied as being a debt.

True.

True.

Then when the person who asks me is not in his right mind I am by no means to make the return?

Then when the person who asks me is not thinking clearly, am I not supposed to respond?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

When Simonides said that the repayment of a debt was justice, he did not mean to include that case?

When Simonides stated that repaying a debt was justice, he didn’t mean to include that situation?

Certainly not; for he thinks that a friend ought always to do good to a friend and never evil.

Certainly not; because he believes that a friend should always do good for a friend and never harm them.

You mean that the return of a deposit of gold which is to the injury of the receiver, if the two parties are friends, is not the repayment of a debt,—that is what you would imagine him to say?

You mean that when a deposit of gold is returned in a way that hurts the receiver, it doesn't count as paying back a debt, especially if the two parties are friends—that's what you think he would say?

Yes.

Yeah.

And are enemies also to receive what we owe to them?

And should enemies also get what we owe them?

To be sure, he said, they are to receive what we owe them, and an enemy, as I take it, owes to an enemy that which is due or proper to him—that is to say, evil.

Sure, he said, they are going to get what we owe them, and an enemy, as I see it, owes an enemy what’s rightfully his—that is, harm.

Simonides, then, after the manner of poets, would seem to have spoken darkly of the nature of justice; for he really meant to say that justice is the giving to each man what is proper to him, and this he termed a debt.

Simonides, in his typical poetic style, seemed to speak ambiguously about the nature of justice; he was really saying that justice is about giving each person what they deserve, and he referred to this as a debt.

That must have been his meaning, he said.

That must have been what he meant, he said.

By heaven! I replied; and if we asked him what due or proper thing is given by medicine, and to whom, what answer do you think that he would make to us?

By heaven! I replied, and if we asked him what proper thing medicine provides, and to whom, what do you think he would say to us?

He would surely reply that medicine gives drugs and meat and drink to human bodies.

He would definitely say that medicine provides drugs and food and drink for people.

And what due or proper thing is given by cookery, and to what?

And what good or proper thing does cooking provide, and for whom?

Seasoning to food.

Seasoning for food.

And what is that which justice gives, and to whom?

And what is justice offering, and to whom?

If, Socrates, we are to be guided at all by the analogy of the preceding instances, then justice is the art which gives good to friends and evil to enemies.

If we are to be guided at all by the analogy of the earlier examples, Socrates, then justice is the skill that brings good to friends and harm to enemies.

That is his meaning then?

Is that his meaning then?

I think so.

I believe so.

And who is best able to do good to his friends and evil to his enemies in time of sickness?

And who is best at helping their friends and hurting their enemies when they're sick?

The physician.

The doctor.

Or when they are on a voyage, amid the perils of the sea?

Or when they are on a journey, facing the dangers of the ocean?

The pilot.

The pilot episode.

And in what sort of actions or with a view to what result is the just man most able to do harm to his enemy and good to his friend?

And in what kind of actions or aiming for what outcome can a fair person most effectively harm their enemy and benefit their friend?

In going to war against the one and in making alliances with the other.

In going to war against one and making alliances with the other.

But when a man is well, my dear Polemarchus, there is no need of a physician?

But when a guy is healthy, my dear Polemarchus, there's no need for a doctor?

No.

No.

And he who is not on a voyage has no need of a pilot?

And someone who isn't on a journey doesn't need a guide?

No.

No.

Then in time of peace justice will be of no use?

Then in a time of peace, justice won’t matter?

I am very far from thinking so.

I totally don’t think that.

You think that justice may be of use in peace as well as in war?

Do you believe that justice can be useful in both peacetime and wartime?

Yes.

Yes.

Like husbandry for the acquisition of corn?

Like farming to grow corn?

Yes.

Yes.

Or like shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes,—that is what you mean?

Or like making shoes to get shoes—that's what you mean?

Yes.

Yes.

And what similar use or power of acquisition has justice in time of peace?

And what similar role or ability to gain does justice have during peaceful times?

In contracts, Socrates, justice is of use.

In contracts, Socrates, justice is useful.

And by contracts you mean partnerships?

And when you say contracts, do you mean partnerships?

Exactly.

Exactly.

But is the just man or the skilful player a more useful and better partner at a game of draughts?

But is the fair player or the skilled strategist a more valuable and better partner in a game of checkers?

The skilful player.

The skilled player.

And in the laying of bricks and stones is the just man a more useful or better partner than the builder?

And when it comes to laying bricks and stones, is the honest person a more useful or better partner than the builder?

Quite the reverse.

Actually, the opposite.

Then in what sort of partnership is the just man a better partner than the harp-player, as in playing the harp the harp-player is certainly a better partner than the just man?

Then in what kind of partnership is the just man a better partner than the harp player, considering that in playing the harp, the harp player is definitely a better partner than the just man?

In a money partnership.

In a financial partnership.

Yes, Polemarchus, but surely not in the use of money; for you do not want a just man to be your counsellor in the purchase or sale of a horse; a man who is knowing about horses would be better for that, would he not?

Yes, Polemarchus, but definitely not when it comes to money; you wouldn’t want a just person advising you on buying or selling a horse; someone who knows about horses would be better for that, right?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And when you want to buy a ship, the shipwright or the pilot would be better?

And when you want to buy a ship, who would be better, the shipbuilder or the captain?

True.

True.

Then what is that joint use of silver or gold in which the just man is to be preferred?

Then what is that shared use of silver or gold where the just person should be favored?

When you want a deposit to be kept safely.

When you want a deposit to be kept safe.

You mean when money is not wanted, but allowed to lie?

You mean when money isn't needed but just left sitting around?

Precisely.

Exactly.

That is to say, justice is useful when money is useless?

That is to say, is justice helpful when money is worthless?

That is the inference.

That's the conclusion.

And when you want to keep a pruning-hook safe, then justice is useful to the individual and to the state; but when you want to use it, then the art of the vine-dresser?

And when you want to keep a pruning hook safe, justice is helpful for both individuals and the state; but when you want to use it, what about the skill of the vine dresser?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And when you want to keep a shield or a lyre, and not to use them, you would say that justice is useful; but when you want to use them, then the art of the soldier or of the musician?

And when you want to hold onto a shield or a lyre without using them, you would say that justice is important; but when you want to use them, what about the skills of a soldier or a musician?

Certainly.

Sure.

And so of all other things;—justice is useful when they are useless, and useless when they are useful?

And so, of all other things—justice is helpful when they are not, and not helpful when they are?

That is the inference.

That's the conclusion.

Then justice is not good for much. But let us consider this further point: Is not he who can best strike a blow in a boxing match or in any kind of fighting best able to ward off a blow?

Then justice isn't really valuable. But let's think about this point further: Isn't the person who can land a hit in a boxing match or any kind of fight also the one best able to avoid getting hit?

Certainly.

Sure.

And he who is most skilful in preventing or escaping from a disease is best able to create one?

And the person who is best at preventing or getting away from a disease is also the one most capable of causing one?

True.

True.

And he is the best guard of a camp who is best able to steal a march upon the enemy?

And the best protector of a camp is the one who can sneak up on the enemy the most effectively?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then he who is a good keeper of anything is also a good thief?

Then someone who is good at keeping things is also good at stealing?

That, I suppose, is to be inferred.

That, I guess, is what you can take from it.

Then if the just man is good at keeping money, he is good at stealing it.

Then if a just person is good at handling money, they are good at stealing it.

That is implied in the argument.

That is suggested in the argument.

Then after all the just man has turned out to be a thief. And this is a lesson which I suspect you must have learnt out of Homer; for he, speaking of Autolycus, the maternal grandfather of Odysseus, who is a favourite of his, affirms that

Then after all, the so-called just man has turned out to be a thief. And this is a lesson I suspect you must have learned from Homer; for he, talking about Autolycus, the maternal grandfather of Odysseus, who is one of his favorites, states that

‘He was excellent above all men in theft and perjury.’

‘He was outstanding above all others in stealing and lying under oath.’

And so, you and Homer and Simonides are agreed that justice is an art of theft; to be practised however ‘for the good of friends and for the harm of enemies,’—that was what you were saying?

And so, you, Homer, and Simonides all agree that justice is a form of stealing; it should be practiced “for the benefit of friends and for the detriment of enemies”—that’s what you were saying?

No, certainly not that, though I do not now know what I did say; but I still stand by the latter words.

No, definitely not that, though I can't remember exactly what I said; but I still stand by those last words.

Well, there is another question: By friends and enemies do we mean those who are so really, or only in seeming?

Well, there's another question: When we talk about friends and enemies, are we referring to those who truly are, or just those who seem to be?

Surely, he said, a man may be expected to love those whom he thinks good, and to hate those whom he thinks evil.

Surely, he said, a person can be expected to love those they believe are good and to hate those they believe are evil.

Yes, but do not persons often err about good and evil: many who are not good seem to be so, and conversely?

Yes, but don't people often get good and evil wrong? Many who don't seem good appear to be so, and the opposite is true as well.

That is true.

That's true.

Then to them the good will be enemies and the evil will be their friends? True.

Then the good will be enemies to them, and the evil will be their friends? That's true.

And in that case they will be right in doing good to the evil and evil to the good?

And in that case, will they be justified in doing good to those who are evil and evil to those who are good?

Clearly.

Clearly.

But the good are just and would not do an injustice?

But the good are fair and wouldn’t commit an injustice.

True.

True.

Then according to your argument it is just to injure those who do no wrong?

So according to your reasoning, it's okay to hurt people who haven't done anything wrong?

Nay, Socrates; the doctrine is immoral.

No, Socrates; the idea is wrong.

Then I suppose that we ought to do good to the just and harm to the unjust?

Then I guess we should help the good people and hurt the bad ones?

I like that better.

I prefer that.

But see the consequence:—Many a man who is ignorant of human nature has friends who are bad friends, and in that case he ought to do harm to them; and he has good enemies whom he ought to benefit; but, if so, we shall be saying the very opposite of that which we affirmed to be the meaning of Simonides.

But look at the result: Many people who don’t understand human nature have friends who are not true friends, and in that case, they should do harm to them; meanwhile, they have good enemies to whom they should offer help. However, if that's the case, we would be saying the exact opposite of what we claimed was the meaning of Simonides.

Very true, he said: and I think that we had better correct an error into which we seem to have fallen in the use of the words ‘friend’ and ‘enemy.’

Very true, he said: and I think we should fix a mistake we've made in how we use the words ‘friend’ and ‘enemy.’

What was the error, Polemarchus? I asked.

What was the mistake, Polemarchus? I asked.

We assumed that he is a friend who seems to be or who is thought good.

We thought he was a friend who appears to be good or is seen as good.

And how is the error to be corrected?

And how is the mistake going to be fixed?

We should rather say that he is a friend who is, as well as seems, good; and that he who seems only, and is not good, only seems to be and is not a friend; and of an enemy the same may be said.

We should say that someone is a friend if they are actually good, as well as appearing to be good; and that someone who only appears to be good but isn't truly good is not a real friend; the same can be said about an enemy.

You would argue that the good are our friends and the bad our enemies?

You would say that the good people are our friends and the bad ones are our enemies?

Yes.

Yes.

And instead of saying simply as we did at first, that it is just to do good to our friends and harm to our enemies, we should further say: It is just to do good to our friends when they are good and harm to our enemies when they are evil?

And instead of just saying, as we did at first, that it’s right to help our friends and hurt our enemies, we should add: It’s right to help our friends when they’re good and hurt our enemies when they’re bad?

Yes, that appears to me to be the truth.

Yes, that seems to be the truth to me.

But ought the just to injure any one at all?

But should the just harm anyone at all?

Undoubtedly he ought to injure those who are both wicked and his enemies.

He definitely should harm those who are both evil and his enemies.

When horses are injured, are they improved or deteriorated?

When horses get hurt, do they get better or worse?

The latter.

The latter.

Deteriorated, that is to say, in the good qualities of horses, not of dogs?

Deteriorated, meaning the positive traits of horses, not of dogs?

Yes, of horses.

Yes, about horses.

And dogs are deteriorated in the good qualities of dogs, and not of horses?

And dogs have lost their good qualities, but not horses?

Of course.

Sure thing.

And will not men who are injured be deteriorated in that which is the proper virtue of man?

And won't men who are hurt see a decline in what's considered the true virtue of a man?

Certainly.

Sure.

And that human virtue is justice?

And that human virtue is justice?

To be sure.

For sure.

Then men who are injured are of necessity made unjust?

Then are men who are hurt unjust by necessity?

That is the result.

That's the result.

But can the musician by his art make men unmusical?

But can a musician, through their art, make people unmusical?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Or the horseman by his art make them bad horsemen?

Or does the horseman make them poor riders with his skill?

Impossible.

Not gonna happen.

And can the just by justice make men unjust, or speaking generally, can the good by virtue make them bad?

And can doing what’s right make people act unfairly, or more broadly, can being good lead them to behave poorly?

Assuredly not.

Definitely not.

Any more than heat can produce cold?

Any more than heat can create cold?

It cannot.

It can't.

Or drought moisture?

Or drought conditions?

Clearly not.

Definitely not.

Nor can the good harm any one?

Can good harm anyone?

Impossible.

Not possible.

And the just is the good?

And is the just the good?

Certainly.

Sure.

Then to injure a friend or any one else is not the act of a just man, but of the opposite, who is the unjust?

Then hurting a friend or anyone else is not what a just person would do, but rather the opposite, who is the unjust?

I think that what you say is quite true, Socrates.

I think what you're saying is totally true, Socrates.

Then if a man says that justice consists in the repayment of debts, and that good is the debt which a just man owes to his friends, and evil the debt which he owes to his enemies,—to say this is not wise; for it is not true, if, as has been clearly shown, the injuring of another can be in no case just.

Then if a man says that justice means paying off debts, and that good is the debt a just person owes to their friends, and evil is the debt owed to their enemies,—saying this isn't smart; because it's not true, as has been clearly shown, that harming another person can ever be just.

I agree with you, said Polemarchus.

I agree with you, said Polemarchus.

Then you and I are prepared to take up arms against any one who attributes such a saying to Simonides or Bias or Pittacus, or any other wise man or seer?

Then you and I are ready to fight against anyone who claims that saying came from Simonides, Bias, Pittacus, or any other wise person or prophet?

I am quite ready to do battle at your side, he said.

I’m totally ready to fight alongside you, he said.

Shall I tell you whose I believe the saying to be?

Shall I tell you whose saying I think it is?

Whose?

Whose is it?

I believe that Periander or Perdiccas or Xerxes or Ismenias the Theban, or some other rich and mighty man, who had a great opinion of his own power, was the first to say that justice is ‘doing good to your friends and harm to your enemies.’

I think that Periander, Perdiccas, Xerxes, Ismenias the Theban, or some other wealthy and powerful person who had a high opinion of their own influence was the first to claim that justice means ‘doing good for your friends and harm to your enemies.’

Most true, he said.

True, he said.

Yes, I said; but if this definition of justice also breaks down, what other can be offered?

Yes, I said; but if this definition of justice falls apart, what other one can be provided?

Several times in the course of the discussion Thrasymachus had made an attempt to get the argument into his own hands, and had been put down by the rest of the company, who wanted to hear the end. But when Polemarchus and I had done speaking and there was a pause, he could no longer hold his peace; and, gathering himself up, he came at us like a wild beast, seeking to devour us. We were quite panic-stricken at the sight of him.

Several times during the discussion, Thrasymachus tried to take control of the conversation, but the others shut him down because they wanted to hear the conclusion. However, when Polemarchus and I finished speaking and there was a moment of silence, he could no longer stay quiet; and, gathering himself, he came at us like a wild animal, ready to attack. We were completely startled by the sight of him.

He roared out to the whole company: What folly, Socrates, has taken possession of you all? And why, sillybillies, do you knock under to one another? I say that if you want really to know what justice is, you should not only ask but answer, and you should not seek honour to yourself from the refutation of an opponent, but have your own answer; for there is many a one who can ask and cannot answer. And now I will not have you say that justice is duty or advantage or profit or gain or interest, for this sort of nonsense will not do for me; I must have clearness and accuracy.

He shouted to everyone: What madness has taken over you all, Socrates? And why, you silly people, do you let each other control you? I say that if you really want to understand what justice is, you shouldn't just ask but also answer, and you shouldn't seek glory for disproving someone else's views; instead, you should focus on your own answer. Many can ask questions but can't provide answers. And now, I won’t let you claim that justice is about duty, advantage, profit, gain, or self-interest, because that kind of nonsense doesn’t work for me; I need clarity and precision.

I was panic-stricken at his words, and could not look at him without trembling. Indeed I believe that if I had not fixed my eye upon him, I should have been struck dumb: but when I saw his fury rising, I looked at him first, and was therefore able to reply to him.

I was terrified by what he said and couldn’t look at him without shaking. Honestly, I think if I hadn’t focused on him, I would have been unable to speak: but when I noticed his anger building, I looked at him first and was then able to respond.

Thrasymachus, I said, with a quiver, don’t be hard upon us. Polemarchus and I may have been guilty of a little mistake in the argument, but I can assure you that the error was not intentional. If we were seeking for a piece of gold, you would not imagine that we were ‘knocking under to one another,’ and so losing our chance of finding it. And why, when we are seeking for justice, a thing more precious than many pieces of gold, do you say that we are weakly yielding to one another and not doing our utmost to get at the truth? Nay, my good friend, we are most willing and anxious to do so, but the fact is that we cannot. And if so, you people who know all things should pity us and not be angry with us.

Thrasymachus, I said, a bit nervously, please don’t be too hard on us. Polemarchus and I might have made a small mistake in our argument, but I assure you it wasn’t on purpose. If we were searching for a piece of gold, you wouldn’t think we were “giving in to each other” and missing our chance to find it. So why, when we’re searching for justice, something far more valuable than gold, do you say we’re weakly yielding to each other and not doing our best to uncover the truth? Honestly, my friend, we’re eager and ready to do so, but the truth is we just can’t. And if that’s the case, you who know everything should feel sorry for us instead of getting angry.

How characteristic of Socrates! he replied, with a bitter laugh;—that’s your ironical style! Did I not foresee—have I not already told you, that whatever he was asked he would refuse to answer, and try irony or any other shuffle, in order that he might avoid answering?

How typical of Socrates! he replied with a bitter laugh;—that’s your ironic style! Didn’t I predict—haven’t I already told you that no matter what he was asked, he would refuse to answer and use irony or any other excuse to avoid responding?

You are a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I replied, and well know that if you ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three, ‘for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,’—then obviously, if that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer you. But suppose that he were to retort, ‘Thrasymachus, what do you mean? If one of these numbers which you interdict be the true answer to the question, am I falsely to say some other number which is not the right one?—is that your meaning?’—How would you answer him?

You’re a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I said, and you know that if you ask someone what numbers add up to twelve, while making sure to stop them from saying twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three—'because that kind of nonsense won’t work for me'—then obviously, if that’s how you’re framing the question, no one can give you an answer. But what if he responded, ‘Thrasymachus, what are you getting at? If one of those numbers you’re banning is actually the right answer, should I just say another number that’s incorrect?—Is that what you mean?’—How would you respond to him?

Just as if the two cases were at all alike! he said.

Just as if the two cases were anything alike! he said.

Why should they not be? I replied; and even if they are not, but only appear to be so to the person who is asked, ought he not to say what he thinks, whether you and I forbid him or not?

Why shouldn't they be? I replied; and even if they aren't, but just seem that way to the person being asked, shouldn't he express what he thinks, whether you and I tell him not to?

I presume then that you are going to make one of the interdicted answers?

I assume that you’re going to give one of the forbidden answers?

I dare say that I may, notwithstanding the danger, if upon reflection I approve of any of them.

I must say that I might, despite the risk, if I think any of them are worth it.

But what if I give you an answer about justice other and better, he said, than any of these? What do you deserve to have done to you?

But what if I give you a different and better answer about justice, he said, than any of these? What do you deserve to have done to you?

Done to me!—as becomes the ignorant, I must learn from the wise—that is what I deserve to have done to me.

Done to me!—as fits the uninformed, I have to learn from the knowledgeable—that's what I deserve to happen to me.

What, and no payment! a pleasant notion!

What, and no payment? What a nice idea!

I will pay when I have the money, I replied.

I’ll pay when I have the money, I replied.

But you have, Socrates, said Glaucon: and you, Thrasymachus, need be under no anxiety about money, for we will all make a contribution for Socrates.

But you have, Socrates, said Glaucon: and you, Thrasymachus, don’t have to worry about money, because we will all chip in for Socrates.

Yes, he replied, and then Socrates will do as he always does—refuse to answer himself, but take and pull to pieces the answer of some one else.

Yes, he replied, and then Socrates will do what he always does—refuse to answer himself, but take someone else's answer and break it down.

Why, my good friend, I said, how can any one answer who knows, and says that he knows, just nothing; and who, even if he has some faint notions of his own, is told by a man of authority not to utter them? The natural thing is, that the speaker should be some one like yourself who professes to know and can tell what he knows. Will you then kindly answer, for the edification of the company and of myself?

Why, my good friend, I said, how can anyone answer who really knows, and claims to know, absolutely nothing? And someone who, even if they have some vague ideas, is told by an authority figure not to share them? Naturally, the speaker should be someone like you who claims to know and can share what they know. So, could you please answer, for the benefit of everyone present and myself?

Glaucon and the rest of the company joined in my request, and Thrasymachus, as any one might see, was in reality eager to speak; for he thought that he had an excellent answer, and would distinguish himself. But at first he affected to insist on my answering; at length he consented to begin. Behold, he said, the wisdom of Socrates; he refuses to teach himself, and goes about learning of others, to whom he never even says Thank you.

Glaucon and the others chimed in with my request, and Thrasymachus, as anyone could tell, was really eager to speak; he believed he had a great answer and wanted to stand out. At first, he pretended to insist that I should answer, but eventually he agreed to start. Look, he said, at the wisdom of Socrates; he won’t teach himself and instead goes around learning from others, to whom he doesn’t even bother to say thank you.

That I learn of others, I replied, is quite true; but that I am ungrateful I wholly deny. Money I have none, and therefore I pay in praise, which is all I have; and how ready I am to praise any one who appears to me to speak well you will very soon find out when you answer; for I expect that you will answer well.

That I learn from others is definitely true; but I completely deny being ungrateful. I have no money, so I pay with praise, which is all I have; and you'll see how eager I am to praise anyone who seems to speak well when you respond. I expect that you'll reply thoughtfully.

Listen, then, he said; I proclaim that justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger. And now why do you not praise me? But of course you won’t.

Listen, he said; I declare that justice is just the advantage of the stronger. So why don’t you praise me? But of course you won’t.

Let me first understand you, I replied. Justice, as you say, is the interest of the stronger. What, Thrasymachus, is the meaning of this? You cannot mean to say that because Polydamas, the pancratiast, is stronger than we are, and finds the eating of beef conducive to his bodily strength, that to eat beef is therefore equally for our good who are weaker than he is, and right and just for us?

Let me first get what you're saying, I replied. Justice, as you claim, is about the interests of the stronger. What do you mean by that, Thrasymachus? Are you really suggesting that just because Polydamas, the pancratiast, is stronger than us and finds eating beef beneficial for his strength, it also means that eating beef is just as good for us, who are weaker, and that it's right and fair for us?

That’s abominable of you, Socrates; you take the words in the sense which is most damaging to the argument.

That's terrible of you, Socrates; you interpret the words in the way that is most harmful to the argument.

Not at all, my good sir, I said; I am trying to understand them; and I wish that you would be a little clearer.

Not at all, my good sir, I said; I’m trying to understand them, and I wish you would be a bit clearer.

Well, he said, have you never heard that forms of government differ; there are tyrannies, and there are democracies, and there are aristocracies?

Well, he said, have you never heard that different forms of government exist; there are tyrannies, democracies, and aristocracies?

Yes, I know.

Yes, I get it.

And the government is the ruling power in each state?

And the government is the ruling authority in each state?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And the different forms of government make laws democratical, aristocratical, tyrannical, with a view to their several interests; and these laws, which are made by them for their own interests, are the justice which they deliver to their subjects, and him who transgresses them they punish as a breaker of the law, and unjust. And that is what I mean when I say that in all states there is the same principle of justice, which is the interest of the government; and as the government must be supposed to have power, the only reasonable conclusion is, that everywhere there is one principle of justice, which is the interest of the stronger.

Different types of government create laws that are democratic, aristocratic, or tyrannical, based on their specific interests. These laws, designed for their own benefit, represent the justice they enforce on their people. Those who break these laws face punishment as lawbreakers and wrongdoers. This is what I mean when I say that in every state, the underlying principle of justice is the interest of the government. Since the government is assumed to have power, the logical conclusion is that there is a single principle of justice everywhere, which serves the interests of the stronger party.

Now I understand you, I said; and whether you are right or not I will try to discover. But let me remark, that in defining justice you have yourself used the word ‘interest’ which you forbade me to use. It is true, however, that in your definition the words ‘of the stronger’ are added.

Now I get what you're saying, I said; and whether you're right or not, I’ll try to find out. But I want to point out that in defining justice, you used the word 'interest' which you told me not to use. It’s true, though, that in your definition, you included the phrase 'of the stronger.'

A small addition, you must allow, he said.

A small addition, you have to agree, he said.

Great or small, never mind about that: we must first enquire whether what you are saying is the truth. Now we are both agreed that justice is interest of some sort, but you go on to say ‘of the stronger’; about this addition I am not so sure, and must therefore consider further.

Great or small, it doesn’t matter: we first need to find out if what you’re saying is true. We both agree that justice relates to some kind of interest, but you say it’s the interest of the stronger. I’m not so sure about that addition, so I need to think about it more.

Proceed.

Understood! Please provide the text you'd like me to modernize.

I will; and first tell me, Do you admit that it is just for subjects to obey their rulers?

I will; and first tell me, do you agree that it’s fair for people to follow their leaders?

I do.

I do.

But are the rulers of states absolutely infallible, or are they sometimes liable to err?

But are the leaders of states completely infallible, or are they sometimes prone to making mistakes?

To be sure, he replied, they are liable to err.

To be sure, he replied, they can make mistakes.

Then in making their laws they may sometimes make them rightly, and sometimes not?

Then when they create their laws, they might sometimes get it right and sometimes not?

True.

True.

When they make them rightly, they make them agreeably to their interest; when they are mistaken, contrary to their interest; you admit that?

When they do it right, they align with their interests; when they get it wrong, they go against their interests; do you agree with that?

Yes.

Yes.

And the laws which they make must be obeyed by their subjects,—and that is what you call justice?

And the laws they create must be followed by their citizens—and that's what you call justice?

Doubtless.

Definitely.

Then justice, according to your argument, is not only obedience to the interest of the stronger but the reverse?

Then justice, according to your argument, is not just about following the interests of the stronger but the opposite?

What is that you are saying? he asked.

"What are you saying?" he asked.

I am only repeating what you are saying, I believe. But let us consider: Have we not admitted that the rulers may be mistaken about their own interest in what they command, and also that to obey them is justice? Has not that been admitted?

I’m just echoing what you’re saying, I think. But let’s think about this: Haven’t we agreed that the rulers can be wrong about what’s best for themselves in what they demand, and that obeying them is the right thing to do? Hasn’t that been acknowledged?

Yes.

Yes.

Then you must also have acknowledged justice not to be for the interest of the stronger, when the rulers unintentionally command things to be done which are to their own injury. For if, as you say, justice is the obedience which the subject renders to their commands, in that case, O wisest of men, is there any escape from the conclusion that the weaker are commanded to do, not what is for the interest, but what is for the injury of the stronger?

Then you must also recognize that justice isn’t just for the benefit of the stronger, especially when the rulers unintentionally order actions that harm themselves. Because if, as you say, justice is the obedience that the subject gives to their commands, then, O wisest of men, is there any way to avoid the conclusion that the weaker are commanded to do not what benefits them, but what harms the stronger?

Nothing can be clearer, Socrates, said Polemarchus.

"Nothing could be clearer, Socrates," said Polemarchus.

Yes, said Cleitophon, interposing, if you are allowed to be his witness.

Yes, said Cleitophon, stepping in, if you're allowed to be his witness.

But there is no need of any witness, said Polemarchus, for Thrasymachus himself acknowledges that rulers may sometimes command what is not for their own interest, and that for subjects to obey them is justice.

But there’s no need for a witness, said Polemarchus, because Thrasymachus himself admits that rulers can sometimes order things that aren’t in their own interest, and that it is just for subjects to obey them.

Yes, Polemarchus,—Thrasymachus said that for subjects to do what was commanded by their rulers is just.

Yes, Polemarchus,—Thrasymachus said that it's just for people to do what their rulers tell them to do.

Yes, Cleitophon, but he also said that justice is the interest of the stronger, and, while admitting both these propositions, he further acknowledged that the stronger may command the weaker who are his subjects to do what is not for his own interest; whence follows that justice is the injury quite as much as the interest of the stronger.

Yes, Cleitophon, but he also said that justice is what benefits the stronger, and, while accepting both these ideas, he also recognized that the stronger can make the weaker, who are his subjects, do things that aren't in his own interest; from this, it follows that justice is as much about harming as it is about benefiting the stronger.

But, said Cleitophon, he meant by the interest of the stronger what the stronger thought to be his interest,—this was what the weaker had to do; and this was affirmed by him to be justice.

But, Cleitophon said, he meant that the interest of the stronger is what the stronger believes to be his interest—this is what the weaker must follow; and he claimed this was justice.

Those were not his words, rejoined Polemarchus.

Those weren't his words, Polemarchus replied.

Never mind, I replied, if he now says that they are, let us accept his statement. Tell me, Thrasymachus, I said, did you mean by justice what the stronger thought to be his interest, whether really so or not?

Never mind, I replied. If he says that they are, let’s just accept what he says. Tell me, Thrasymachus, did you mean by justice what the stronger believed was in his best interest, whether it truly is or not?

Certainly not, he said. Do you suppose that I call him who is mistaken the stronger at the time when he is mistaken?

Certainly not, he said. Do you think I would consider someone who is wrong to be stronger when they are mistaken?

Yes, I said, my impression was that you did so, when you admitted that the ruler was not infallible but might be sometimes mistaken.

Yes, I said, it seemed to me that you did, when you acknowledged that the ruler wasn’t perfect but could sometimes be wrong.

You argue like an informer, Socrates. Do you mean, for example, that he who is mistaken about the sick is a physician in that he is mistaken? or that he who errs in arithmetic or grammar is an arithmetician or grammarian at the time when he is making the mistake, in respect of the mistake? True, we say that the physician or arithmetician or grammarian has made a mistake, but this is only a way of speaking; for the fact is that neither the grammarian nor any other person of skill ever makes a mistake in so far as he is what his name implies; they none of them err unless their skill fails them, and then they cease to be skilled artists. No artist or sage or ruler errs at the time when he is what his name implies; though he is commonly said to err, and I adopted the common mode of speaking. But to be perfectly accurate, since you are such a lover of accuracy, we should say that the ruler, in so far as he is a ruler, is unerring, and, being unerring, always commands that which is for his own interest; and the subject is required to execute his commands; and therefore, as I said at first and now repeat, justice is the interest of the stronger.

You argue like a snitch, Socrates. Are you suggesting, for instance, that someone who is wrong about the sick is still a doctor just because they’re wrong? Or that someone who makes mistakes in math or grammar is a mathematician or grammarian while they’re making those mistakes? Sure, we say that the doctor or mathematician or grammarian has made a mistake, but that’s just a figure of speech; the truth is that neither the grammarian nor anyone else skilled ever really makes a mistake as long as they’re being what their title suggests. They only err if their skill lets them down, and then they stop being skilled professionals. No artist, wise person, or leader makes mistakes while they’re being what their title indicates; although people often say they do, I used that common way of speaking. But to be completely precise, since you care so much about accuracy, we ought to say that the leader, as long as they are a leader, is infallible, and because they are infallible, they always direct what’s in their best interest; and the subjects must carry out their orders. Therefore, as I stated before and am now repeating, justice is the interest of the stronger.

Indeed, Thrasymachus, and do I really appear to you to argue like an informer?

Indeed, Thrasymachus, do I really seem to you to argue like a snitch?

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

And do you suppose that I ask these questions with any design of injuring you in the argument?

And do you think I’m asking these questions to hurt you in the debate?

Nay, he replied, ‘suppose’ is not the word—I know it; but you will be found out, and by sheer force of argument you will never prevail.

No, he replied, 'suppose' isn’t the right word—I know it; but you will be discovered, and just through the strength of your arguments, you will never succeed.

I shall not make the attempt, my dear man; but to avoid any misunderstanding occurring between us in future, let me ask, in what sense do you speak of a ruler or stronger whose interest, as you were saying, he being the superior, it is just that the inferior should execute—is he a ruler in the popular or in the strict sense of the term?

I won't attempt that, my dear friend; but to prevent any misunderstandings between us in the future, let me ask, in what sense are you referring to a ruler or someone stronger whose interest, as you mentioned, it is right for the weaker party to follow—are they a ruler in the general sense or in the strict sense of the term?

In the strictest of all senses, he said. And now cheat and play the informer if you can; I ask no quarter at your hands. But you never will be able, never.

In the strictest sense, he said. And now go ahead and cheat and be a snitch if you want; I don't expect any mercy from you. But you’ll never be able to, never.

And do you imagine, I said, that I am such a madman as to try and cheat, Thrasymachus? I might as well shave a lion.

And do you really think, I said, that I'm crazy enough to try to cheat Thrasymachus? I might as well try to shave a lion.

Why, he said, you made the attempt a minute ago, and you failed.

"Why," he said, "you tried just a minute ago, and you didn’t succeed."

Enough, I said, of these civilities. It will be better that I should ask you a question: Is the physician, taken in that strict sense of which you are speaking, a healer of the sick or a maker of money? And remember that I am now speaking of the true physician.

Enough with these pleasantries, I said. It’s better if I ask you a question: Is a doctor, in the specific sense you're talking about, a healer of the sick or just someone who makes money? And keep in mind that I'm referring to the true doctor.

A healer of the sick, he replied.

A healer for the sick, he replied.

And the pilot—that is to say, the true pilot—is he a captain of sailors or a mere sailor?

And the pilot—that is to say, the real pilot—is he the captain of sailors or just another sailor?

A captain of sailors.

A ship captain.

The circumstance that he sails in the ship is not to be taken into account; neither is he to be called a sailor; the name pilot by which he is distinguished has nothing to do with sailing, but is significant of his skill and of his authority over the sailors.

The fact that he’s on the ship doesn’t really matter; he shouldn’t be called a sailor. The title "pilot" he goes by doesn’t relate to sailing but signifies his expertise and his authority over the crew.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Now, I said, every art has an interest?

Now, I asked, does every art have its own appeal?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

For which the art has to consider and provide?

For what purpose does art need to consider and provide?

Yes, that is the aim of art.

Yes, that's the goal of art.

And the interest of any art is the perfection of it—this and nothing else?

And the focus of any art is its perfection—nothing more, nothing less?

What do you mean?

What are you talking about?

I mean what I may illustrate negatively by the example of the body. Suppose you were to ask me whether the body is self-sufficing or has wants, I should reply: Certainly the body has wants; for the body may be ill and require to be cured, and has therefore interests to which the art of medicine ministers; and this is the origin and intention of medicine, as you will acknowledge. Am I not right?

I can show this negatively by using the example of the body. If you were to ask me whether the body can take care of itself or has needs, I would say: Absolutely, the body has needs; it can get sick and needs to be healed, which is why there are medical practices to address those needs. This is the purpose and aim of medicine, as you would agree. Am I right?

Quite right, he replied.

You’re right, he replied.

But is the art of medicine or any other art faulty or deficient in any quality in the same way that the eye may be deficient in sight or the ear fail of hearing, and therefore requires another art to provide for the interests of seeing and hearing—has art in itself, I say, any similar liability to fault or defect, and does every art require another supplementary art to provide for its interests, and that another and another without end? Or have the arts to look only after their own interests? Or have they no need either of themselves or of another?—having no faults or defects, they have no need to correct them, either by the exercise of their own art or of any other; they have only to consider the interest of their subject-matter. For every art remains pure and faultless while remaining true—that is to say, while perfect and unimpaired. Take the words in your precise sense, and tell me whether I am not right.

But is the practice of medicine or any other art flawed or lacking in some way like how the eye might struggle to see or the ear might fail to hear, and therefore needs another skill to address the needs of seeing and hearing? Does art itself, I ask, have a similar tendency toward flaws or shortcomings, requiring another supplementary art to look after its concerns, and that one needing another, and so on infinitely? Or do the arts only need to take care of their own interests? Or do they not need either themselves or anything else?—if they have no faults or defects, they don't need to fix them, whether by using their own skill or another; they only need to focus on the interests of their subject matter. Every art stays pure and flawless as long as it remains true—that is, while it is perfect and intact. Consider my words carefully and tell me if I'm not right.

Yes, clearly.

Yep, definitely.

Then medicine does not consider the interest of medicine, but the interest of the body?

Then doesn't medicine focus on the needs of the body rather than the interests of medicine itself?

True, he said.

He said, "True."

Nor does the art of horsemanship consider the interests of the art of horsemanship, but the interests of the horse; neither do any other arts care for themselves, for they have no needs; they care only for that which is the subject of their art?

The art of horsemanship doesn't focus on its own interests, but rather on the interests of the horse; similarly, no other arts prioritize themselves, as they have no needs; they only concern themselves with what is central to their craft.

True, he said.

True, he said.

But surely, Thrasymachus, the arts are the superiors and rulers of their own subjects?

But surely, Thrasymachus, the arts are the experts and leaders of their own fields?

To this he assented with a good deal of reluctance.

He agreed to this with a lot of hesitation.

Then, I said, no science or art considers or enjoins the interest of the stronger or superior, but only the interest of the subject and weaker?

Then, I said, no science or art looks out for or favors the interests of the stronger or superior, but only the interests of the subject and weaker?

He made an attempt to contest this proposition also, but finally acquiesced.

He tried to dispute this idea too, but eventually agreed.

Then, I continued, no physician, in so far as he is a physician, considers his own good in what he prescribes, but the good of his patient; for the true physician is also a ruler having the human body as a subject, and is not a mere money-maker; that has been admitted?

Then, I continued, no doctor, as a doctor, thinks about his own benefit when he prescribes something, but rather the well-being of his patient; for the true doctor is also a leader governing the human body as his focus, and is not just a profit-driven individual; that has been accepted?

Yes.

Yes.

And the pilot likewise, in the strict sense of the term, is a ruler of sailors and not a mere sailor?

And the pilot, in the true sense of the word, is a leader of sailors and not just a regular sailor?

That has been admitted.

That's been acknowledged.

And such a pilot and ruler will provide and prescribe for the interest of the sailor who is under him, and not for his own or the ruler’s interest?

And such a captain and leader will ensure and arrange for the welfare of the sailor under his command, rather than for his own benefit or the benefit of the ruler?

He gave a reluctant ‘Yes.’

He reluctantly said ‘Yes.’

Then, I said, Thrasymachus, there is no one in any rule who, in so far as he is a ruler, considers or enjoins what is for his own interest, but always what is for the interest of his subject or suitable to his art; to that he looks, and that alone he considers in everything which he says and does.

Then I said, Thrasymachus, no ruler, as a ruler, thinks about or commands what's in their own interest, but always what benefits their subjects or what aligns with their expertise; that's what they focus on, and that's all they consider in everything they say and do.

When we had got to this point in the argument, and every one saw that the definition of justice had been completely upset, Thrasymachus, instead of replying to me, said: Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse?

When we reached this point in the discussion and everyone realized that the definition of justice had been totally overturned, Thrasymachus, instead of responding to me, asked: Tell me, Socrates, do you have a nurse?

Why do you ask such a question, I said, when you ought rather to be answering?

Why do you ask that question, I said, when you should be answering instead?

Because she leaves you to snivel, and never wipes your nose: she has not even taught you to know the shepherd from the sheep.

Because she lets you cry and never wipes your nose: she hasn’t even taught you to tell the shepherd from the sheep.

What makes you say that? I replied.

"What makes you say that?" I replied.

Because you fancy that the shepherd or neatherd fattens or tends the sheep or oxen with a view to their own good and not to the good of himself or his master; and you further imagine that the rulers of states, if they are true rulers, never think of their subjects as sheep, and that they are not studying their own advantage day and night. Oh, no; and so entirely astray are you in your ideas about the just and unjust as not even to know that justice and the just are in reality another’s good; that is to say, the interest of the ruler and stronger, and the loss of the subject and servant; and injustice the opposite; for the unjust is lord over the truly simple and just: he is the stronger, and his subjects do what is for his interest, and minister to his happiness, which is very far from being their own. Consider further, most foolish Socrates, that the just is always a loser in comparison with the unjust. First of all, in private contracts: wherever the unjust is the partner of the just you will find that, when the partnership is dissolved, the unjust man has always more and the just less. Secondly, in their dealings with the State: when there is an income-tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income; and when there is anything to be received the one gains nothing and the other much. Observe also what happens when they take an office; there is the just man neglecting his affairs and perhaps suffering other losses, and getting nothing out of the public, because he is just; moreover he is hated by his friends and acquaintance for refusing to serve them in unlawful ways. But all this is reversed in the case of the unjust man. I am speaking, as before, of injustice on a large scale in which the advantage of the unjust is most apparent; and my meaning will be most clearly seen if we turn to that highest form of injustice in which the criminal is the happiest of men, and the sufferers or those who refuse to do injustice are the most miserable—that is to say tyranny, which by fraud and force takes away the property of others, not little by little but wholesale; comprehending in one, things sacred as well as profane, private and public; for which acts of wrong, if he were detected perpetrating any one of them singly, he would be punished and incur great disgrace—they who do such wrong in particular cases are called robbers of temples, and man-stealers and burglars and swindlers and thieves. But when a man besides taking away the money of the citizens has made slaves of them, then, instead of these names of reproach, he is termed happy and blessed, not only by the citizens but by all who hear of his having achieved the consummation of injustice. For mankind censure injustice, fearing that they may be the victims of it and not because they shrink from committing it. And thus, as I have shown, Socrates, injustice, when on a sufficient scale, has more strength and freedom and mastery than justice; and, as I said at first, justice is the interest of the stronger, whereas injustice is a man’s own profit and interest.

Because you think that the shepherd or cattle herder looks after the sheep or cows for their own benefit and not for his own or his boss's; and you also believe that true rulers of states never see their subjects as sheep and that they aren’t constantly focused on their own advantage. Oh, no; you’re completely misguided in your understanding of justice and injustice, not even realizing that justice and what is just essentially means the good of others—the interests of the ruler and the strong, leading to the loss of the subject and the servant; and injustice is the opposite; because the unjust person dominates the truly simple and just individual: he is the stronger, and his subjects act in his interest and contribute to his happiness, which is far from their own. Also, consider this, foolish Socrates: the just person always ends up at a disadvantage compared to the unjust. First, in private agreements: wherever the unjust is partnered with the just, when the partnership ends, the unjust ends up with more and the just with less. Secondly, in their interactions with the State: when an income tax is in place, the just person will pay more, and the unjust less, on the same income; and when there's something to gain, one gets nothing and the other a lot. Notice also what happens when they take on a position of power; the just man neglects his own affairs and might incur other losses, gaining nothing from the public because he’s just; furthermore, he’s resented by friends and acquaintances for not serving them through illegal means. But this is completely reversed for the unjust person. I’m referring to large-scale injustice, where the advantages for the unjust are most obvious; and my point will be clearer if we look at the extreme form of injustice where the criminal is the happiest, while those who suffer or refuse to act unjustly are the most miserable—that is to say, tyranny, which through deception and force seizes the property of others, not gradually but wholesale; encompassing everything, sacred and secular, private and public; for which acts of wrongdoing, if he were caught doing any one of them alone, he would face punishment and disgrace—people who commit such wrongs individually are labeled as temple robbers, kidnappers, burglars, swindlers, and thieves. Yet when a person not only takes the money of citizens but also turns them into slaves, instead of these disparaging labels, he is called happy and blessed, not just by the citizens but by anyone who hears of his complete act of injustice. People condemn injustice, fearing they might be victims of it rather than because they hesitate to commit it. Thus, as I’ve demonstrated, Socrates, when injustice is substantial enough, it possesses more power, freedom, and control than justice; and, as I mentioned from the start, justice serves the interests of the stronger, while injustice serves one’s own gain and self-interest.

Thrasymachus, when he had thus spoken, having, like a bath-man, deluged our ears with his words, had a mind to go away. But the company would not let him; they insisted that he should remain and defend his position; and I myself added my own humble request that he would not leave us. Thrasymachus, I said to him, excellent man, how suggestive are your remarks! And are you going to run away before you have fairly taught or learned whether they are true or not? Is the attempt to determine the way of man’s life so small a matter in your eyes—to determine how life may be passed by each one of us to the greatest advantage?

Thrasymachus, after he finished speaking and overwhelmed us with his words, seemed ready to leave. But the group wouldn’t let him; they insisted he stay and defend his viewpoint. I also added my own polite request for him to stick around. "Thrasymachus," I said to him, "you have some really thought-provoking points! Are you really going to walk away before you’ve had a chance to teach or learn whether they’re true or not? Don’t you think figuring out how to live one’s life is a big deal—determining how each of us can live to our fullest potential?"

And do I differ from you, he said, as to the importance of the enquiry?

And do I differ from you, he said, in how important this inquiry is?

You appear rather, I replied, to have no care or thought about us, Thrasymachus—whether we live better or worse from not knowing what you say you know, is to you a matter of indifference. Prithee, friend, do not keep your knowledge to yourself; we are a large party; and any benefit which you confer upon us will be amply rewarded. For my own part I openly declare that I am not convinced, and that I do not believe injustice to be more gainful than justice, even if uncontrolled and allowed to have free play. For, granting that there may be an unjust man who is able to commit injustice either by fraud or force, still this does not convince me of the superior advantage of injustice, and there may be others who are in the same predicament with myself. Perhaps we may be wrong; if so, you in your wisdom should convince us that we are mistaken in preferring justice to injustice.

You seem, I replied, to care little about us, Thrasymachus—whether we live better or worse because we don’t know what you claim to know doesn’t seem to matter to you. Please, friend, don’t keep your knowledge to yourself; we’re a large group, and any benefit you offer us will be well rewarded. Personally, I’ll say it clearly: I’m not convinced, and I don’t believe that being unjust is more profitable than being just, even if it runs wild and unchecked. Even if there’s an unjust person who can act unfairly through trickery or force, that still doesn’t persuade me that injustice has a greater advantage, and others might feel the same way I do. We might be wrong; if that’s the case, you should use your wisdom to show us we’re wrong by choosing justice over injustice.

And how am I to convince you, he said, if you are not already convinced by what I have just said; what more can I do for you? Would you have me put the proof bodily into your souls?

And how am I supposed to convince you, he said, if you aren't already convinced by what I've just said; what more can I do for you? Do you want me to force the proof directly into your souls?

Heaven forbid! I said; I would only ask you to be consistent; or, if you change, change openly and let there be no deception. For I must remark, Thrasymachus, if you will recall what was previously said, that although you began by defining the true physician in an exact sense, you did not observe a like exactness when speaking of the shepherd; you thought that the shepherd as a shepherd tends the sheep not with a view to their own good, but like a mere diner or banquetter with a view to the pleasures of the table; or, again, as a trader for sale in the market, and not as a shepherd. Yet surely the art of the shepherd is concerned only with the good of his subjects; he has only to provide the best for them, since the perfection of the art is already ensured whenever all the requirements of it are satisfied. And that was what I was saying just now about the ruler. I conceived that the art of the ruler, considered as ruler, whether in a state or in private life, could only regard the good of his flock or subjects; whereas you seem to think that the rulers in states, that is to say, the true rulers, like being in authority.

Heaven forbid! I said; I only ask you to be consistent; or, if you change, do it openly and don’t deceive anyone. I have to point out, Thrasymachus, if you remember what was said earlier, that although you started by defining the true physician accurately, you didn’t do the same when talking about the shepherd; you believed that the shepherd tends to the sheep not for their benefit, but like a mere diner focused on enjoying a meal; or, again, as a merchant looking to sell them in the market, not as a genuine shepherd. But surely the shepherd's role is solely about the welfare of his flock; he is meant to provide what’s best for them, since the excellence of the role is guaranteed whenever all its demands are met. And that was what I was saying just now about the ruler. I believe that the role of the ruler, whether in a state or in private life, should only focus on the welfare of his subjects; whereas you seem to believe that rulers in states, that is, the true rulers, simply enjoy being in power.

Think! Nay, I am sure of it.

Think! No, I'm sure of it.

Then why in the case of lesser offices do men never take them willingly without payment, unless under the idea that they govern for the advantage not of themselves but of others? Let me ask you a question: Are not the several arts different, by reason of their each having a separate function? And, my dear illustrious friend, do say what you think, that we may make a little progress.

Then why, when it comes to lesser positions, do people never accept them willingly without payment, unless they believe they're serving not for their own benefit but for others’? Let me ask you this: Aren't the various arts different because each has its own specific purpose? And, my dear esteemed friend, please share your thoughts so we can make a bit of progress.

Yes, that is the difference, he replied.

Yes, that's the difference, he replied.

And each art gives us a particular good and not merely a general one—medicine, for example, gives us health; navigation, safety at sea, and so on?

And each skill provides us with a specific benefit and not just a general one—medicine, for instance, provides us with health; navigation ensures safety at sea, and so on?

Yes, he said.

Yeah, he said.

And the art of payment has the special function of giving pay: but we do not confuse this with other arts, any more than the art of the pilot is to be confused with the art of medicine, because the health of the pilot may be improved by a sea voyage. You would not be inclined to say, would you, that navigation is the art of medicine, at least if we are to adopt your exact use of language?

And the art of payment has a distinct role in providing compensation: however, we don't mix this up with other skills, just as we shouldn't confuse a pilot's expertise with that of a doctor, even if a sea voyage can enhance the pilot's health. You wouldn't say, would you, that navigation is the same as medicine, especially if we stick to your precise definition?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Or because a man is in good health when he receives pay you would not say that the art of payment is medicine?

Or just because a man is healthy when he gets paid, you wouldn't say that the art of payment is like medicine?

I should not.

I shouldn't.

Nor would you say that medicine is the art of receiving pay because a man takes fees when he is engaged in healing?

Nor would you argue that medicine is just about making money just because someone charges fees to help others heal?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And we have admitted, I said, that the good of each art is specially confined to the art?

And we have acknowledged, I said, that the benefit of each skill is specifically limited to that skill?

Yes.

Yes.

Then, if there be any good which all artists have in common, that is to be attributed to something of which they all have the common use?

Then, if there’s any good that all artists share, can it be attributed to something they all commonly use?

True, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

And when the artist is benefited by receiving pay the advantage is gained by an additional use of the art of pay, which is not the art professed by him?

And when the artist benefits from getting paid, the advantage comes from a different kind of art of payment that he doesn’t actually practice?

He gave a reluctant assent to this.

He reluctantly agreed to this.

Then the pay is not derived by the several artists from their respective arts. But the truth is, that while the art of medicine gives health, and the art of the builder builds a house, another art attends them which is the art of pay. The various arts may be doing their own business and benefiting that over which they preside, but would the artist receive any benefit from his art unless he were paid as well?

Then the pay isn’t earned by the different artists through their specific crafts. But the reality is that while the practice of medicine provides health, and the builder's trade constructs houses, there's another crucial aspect, which is the art of earning a living. Each craft may be successfully doing its own work and benefiting from it, but would the artist gain anything from their craft if they weren’t compensated too?

I suppose not.

I guess not.

But does he therefore confer no benefit when he works for nothing?

But does he not offer any benefit when he works for free?

Certainly, he confers a benefit.

Sure, he offers a benefit.

Then now, Thrasymachus, there is no longer any doubt that neither arts nor governments provide for their own interests; but, as we were before saying, they rule and provide for the interests of their subjects who are the weaker and not the stronger—to their good they attend and not to the good of the superior. And this is the reason, my dear Thrasymachus, why, as I was just now saying, no one is willing to govern; because no one likes to take in hand the reformation of evils which are not his concern without remuneration. For, in the execution of his work, and in giving his orders to another, the true artist does not regard his own interest, but always that of his subjects; and therefore in order that rulers may be willing to rule, they must be paid in one of three modes of payment, money, or honour, or a penalty for refusing.

Then now, Thrasymachus, there’s no longer any doubt that neither professions nor governments act in their own interests; instead, as we mentioned before, they oversee and take care of the interests of their subjects, who are the weaker ones, not the stronger. They focus on what’s good for them, not for those in power. This is why, my dear Thrasymachus, as I was just saying, no one is keen to govern; because no one wants to tackle problems that aren’t theirs without some sort of reward. In doing their work and giving instructions to others, the true professional doesn’t look out for their own interests but always considers the interests of those they serve. Therefore, to encourage rulers to govern, they need to be compensated in one of three ways: money, respect, or a penalty for saying no.

What do you mean, Socrates? said Glaucon. The first two modes of payment are intelligible enough, but what the penalty is I do not understand, or how a penalty can be a payment.

"What do you mean, Socrates?" Glaucon asked. "The first two ways to pay make sense, but I don't get what the penalty is or how a penalty can be considered a payment."

You mean that you do not understand the nature of this payment which to the best men is the great inducement to rule? Of course you know that ambition and avarice are held to be, as indeed they are, a disgrace?

You mean you don’t understand why this payment is such a strong incentive for the best people to govern? Of course you know that ambition and greed are considered, and rightly so, to be shameful?

Very true.

So true.

And for this reason, I said, money and honour have no attraction for them; good men do not wish to be openly demanding payment for governing and so to get the name of hirelings, nor by secretly helping themselves out of the public revenues to get the name of thieves. And not being ambitious they do not care about honour. Wherefore necessity must be laid upon them, and they must be induced to serve from the fear of punishment. And this, as I imagine, is the reason why the forwardness to take office, instead of waiting to be compelled, has been deemed dishonourable. Now the worst part of the punishment is that he who refuses to rule is liable to be ruled by one who is worse than himself. And the fear of this, as I conceive, induces the good to take office, not because they would, but because they cannot help—not under the idea that they are going to have any benefit or enjoyment themselves, but as a necessity, and because they are not able to commit the task of ruling to any one who is better than themselves, or indeed as good. For there is reason to think that if a city were composed entirely of good men, then to avoid office would be as much an object of contention as to obtain office is at present; then we should have plain proof that the true ruler is not meant by nature to regard his own interest, but that of his subjects; and every one who knew this would choose rather to receive a benefit from another than to have the trouble of conferring one. So far am I from agreeing with Thrasymachus that justice is the interest of the stronger. This latter question need not be further discussed at present; but when Thrasymachus says that the life of the unjust is more advantageous than that of the just, his new statement appears to me to be of a far more serious character. Which of us has spoken truly? And which sort of life, Glaucon, do you prefer?

And for this reason, I said, money and honor don’t appeal to them; good people don’t want to openly demand payment for being in charge and risk being called mercenaries, nor do they want to secretly take from public funds and earn the title of thieves. Because they aren’t ambitious, they don’t care about honor. Thus, they must be pressured into serving out of fear of punishment. This is, I think, why being eager to hold an office is seen as dishonorable instead of waiting to be forced into it. The worst part of this punishment is that someone who refuses to lead may end up being led by someone worse than themselves. And I believe this fear drives good people to take on office—not because they want to, but because they feel they have to—not with the expectation of any personal gain or enjoyment, but out of necessity, as they can’t trust the responsibility of ruling to anyone who is better or even as good as they are. If a city were made up entirely of good people, avoiding office would be just as contentious as seeking it is now; then we would have clear proof that a true ruler doesn’t naturally prioritize their own interests but those of their subjects. And everyone who understands this would prefer to receive a benefit from others rather than face the burden of providing one themselves. I completely disagree with Thrasymachus’s claim that justice is just the strong’s advantage. We don’t need to delve into that topic right now; however, when Thrasymachus claims that the life of the unjust is more advantageous than that of the just, I find this statement much more serious. Who among us has spoken the truth? And which type of life, Glaucon, do you prefer?

I for my part deem the life of the just to be the more advantageous, he answered.

I, for my part, think that the life of the righteous is more beneficial, he replied.

Did you hear all the advantages of the unjust which Thrasymachus was rehearsing?

Did you hear all the benefits of being unjust that Thrasymachus was talking about?

Yes, I heard him, he replied, but he has not convinced me.

Yes, I heard him, he said, but he hasn't convinced me.

Then shall we try to find some way of convincing him, if we can, that he is saying what is not true?

Then shall we try to find a way to convince him, if we can, that he is saying something that isn’t true?

Most certainly, he replied.

Definitely, he replied.

If, I said, he makes a set speech and we make another recounting all the advantages of being just, and he answers and we rejoin, there must be a numbering and measuring of the goods which are claimed on either side, and in the end we shall want judges to decide; but if we proceed in our enquiry as we lately did, by making admissions to one another, we shall unite the offices of judge and advocate in our own persons.

If he gives a prepared speech and we respond by listing all the benefits of being fair, and he replies and we counter, there will need to be a tallying and weighing of the benefits claimed by both sides, and in the end, we'll need judges to make a decision; but if we continue our discussion like we did recently, by conceding points to each other, we will combine the roles of judge and lawyer within ourselves.

Very good, he said.

Sounds great, he said.

And which method do I understand you to prefer? I said.

And which method do I understand you to prefer? I asked.

That which you propose.

What you propose.

Well, then, Thrasymachus, I said, suppose you begin at the beginning and answer me. You say that perfect injustice is more gainful than perfect justice?

Well, Thrasymachus, I said, let’s start from the beginning and you can answer my question. Are you saying that total injustice is more rewarding than total justice?

Yes, that is what I say, and I have given you my reasons.

Yes, that's what I say, and I've provided my reasons.

And what is your view about them? Would you call one of them virtue and the other vice?

And what do you think about them? Would you consider one to be a virtue and the other a vice?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

I suppose that you would call justice virtue and injustice vice?

I guess you would call justice a good thing and injustice a bad thing?

What a charming notion! So likely too, seeing that I affirm injustice to be profitable and justice not.

What a lovely idea! It seems true too, since I believe that injustice is profitable while justice is not.

What else then would you say?

What else would you say then?

The opposite, he replied.

The opposite, he said.

And would you call justice vice?

And would you call justice a bad thing?

No, I would rather say sublime simplicity.

No, I would rather call it pure simplicity.

Then would you call injustice malignity?

Then would you call injustice wickedness?

No; I would rather say discretion.

No; I would rather say caution.

And do the unjust appear to you to be wise and good?

And do the unfair ones seem wise and good to you?

Yes, he said; at any rate those of them who are able to be perfectly unjust, and who have the power of subduing states and nations; but perhaps you imagine me to be talking of cutpurses. Even this profession if undetected has advantages, though they are not to be compared with those of which I was just now speaking.

Yes, he said; anyway, those among them who can be completely unfair and have the ability to dominate states and nations; but maybe you think I'm referring to thieves. Even this profession, if not caught, has its benefits, although they don't compare to the ones I was just talking about.

I do not think that I misapprehend your meaning, Thrasymachus, I replied; but still I cannot hear without amazement that you class injustice with wisdom and virtue, and justice with the opposite.

I don’t think I misunderstood what you mean, Thrasymachus, I replied; but I’m still amazed to hear that you put injustice in the same category as wisdom and virtue, while considering justice as its opposite.

Certainly I do so class them.

Sure, I classify them.

Now, I said, you are on more substantial and almost unanswerable ground; for if the injustice which you were maintaining to be profitable had been admitted by you as by others to be vice and deformity, an answer might have been given to you on received principles; but now I perceive that you will call injustice honourable and strong, and to the unjust you will attribute all the qualities which were attributed by us before to the just, seeing that you do not hesitate to rank injustice with wisdom and virtue.

Now, I said, you're on firmer and almost unarguable ground; because if you had acknowledged that the injustice you claim to be profitable is, like others say, a vice and a flaw, then a response could have been made based on accepted ideas. But now I see that you will label injustice as honorable and powerful, and you'll assign to the unjust all the traits we previously attributed to the just, since you don't hesitate to place injustice alongside wisdom and virtue.

You have guessed most infallibly, he replied.

You were right, he said.

Then I certainly ought not to shrink from going through with the argument so long as I have reason to think that you, Thrasymachus, are speaking your real mind; for I do believe that you are now in earnest and are not amusing yourself at our expense.

Then I definitely shouldn't hesitate to continue with the debate as long as I have reason to believe that you, Thrasymachus, are being genuine; I really believe that you are serious now and not just having fun at our expense.

I may be in earnest or not, but what is that to you?—to refute the argument is your business.

I might be serious or not, but what does that matter to you?—it's your job to disprove the argument.

Very true, I said; that is what I have to do: But will you be so good as answer yet one more question? Does the just man try to gain any advantage over the just?

Very true, I said; that’s what I have to do: But could you please answer one more question? Does a just person try to gain any advantage over another just person?

Far otherwise; if he did he would not be the simple amusing creature which he is.

Far from it; if he did, he wouldn't be the simply entertaining person he is.

And would he try to go beyond just action?

And would he try to go beyond just taking action?

He would not.

He wouldn't.

And how would he regard the attempt to gain an advantage over the unjust; would that be considered by him as just or unjust?

And how would he see the effort to get an edge over the unfair; would he think of that as fair or unfair?

He would think it just, and would try to gain the advantage; but he would not be able.

He would consider it fair and would try to take advantage of the situation, but he wouldn't succeed.

Whether he would or would not be able, I said, is not to the point. My question is only whether the just man, while refusing to have more than another just man, would wish and claim to have more than the unjust?

Whether he would be able to or not isn't the main issue. My question is simply if the just person, while choosing not to have more than another just person, would want and claim to have more than the unjust person?

Yes, he would.

Yeah, he would.

And what of the unjust—does he claim to have more than the just man and to do more than is just?

And what about the unjust person—do they claim to have more than the just person and to do more than what is fair?

Of course, he said, for he claims to have more than all men.

Of course, he said, because he says he has more than anyone else.

And the unjust man will strive and struggle to obtain more than the unjust man or action, in order that he may have more than all?

And the unfair person will work hard and fight to get more than the unfair person or action, so that they can have more than everyone else?

True.

True.

We may put the matter thus, I said—the just does not desire more than his like but more than his unlike, whereas the unjust desires more than both his like and his unlike?

We could put it this way, I said—the just person doesn't want more than their equal but desires more than what is unlike them, while the unjust person wants more than both their equal and their opposite?

Nothing, he said, can be better than that statement.

Nothing, he said, could be better than that statement.

And the unjust is good and wise, and the just is neither?

And the unfair person is good and wise, while the fair person is neither?

Good again, he said.

Good again, he said.

And is not the unjust like the wise and good and the just unlike them?

And isn't the unjust similar to the wise and good, while the just are different from them?

Of course, he said, he who is of a certain nature, is like those who are of a certain nature; he who is not, not.

Of course, he said, someone with a certain nature is

Each of them, I said, is such as his like is?

Each of them, I said, is just like his counterpart?

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

Very good, Thrasymachus, I said; and now to take the case of the arts: you would admit that one man is a musician and another not a musician?

Very good, Thrasymachus, I said; and now let's consider the arts: you would agree that one person is a musician and another is not, right?

Yes.

Yep.

And which is wise and which is foolish?

And what’s smart and what’s dumb?

Clearly the musician is wise, and he who is not a musician is foolish.

Clearly, the musician is smart, and anyone who isn’t a musician is missing out.

And he is good in as far as he is wise, and bad in as far as he is foolish?

And he is good to the extent that he is wise, and bad to the extent that he is foolish?

Yes.

Yep.

And you would say the same sort of thing of the physician?

And you would say the same kind of thing about the doctor?

Yes.

Yes.

And do you think, my excellent friend, that a musician when he adjusts the lyre would desire or claim to exceed or go beyond a musician in the tightening and loosening the strings?

And do you think, my great friend, that a musician adjusting the lyre would want or try to be better than another musician at tightening and loosening the strings?

I do not think that he would.

I doubt he would.

But he would claim to exceed the non-musician?

But would he really say he's better than someone who's not a musician?

Of course.

Of course.

And what would you say of the physician? In prescribing meats and drinks would he wish to go beyond another physician or beyond the practice of medicine?

And what do you think about the doctor? When recommending foods and drinks, does he want to outdo another doctor or go beyond standard medical practice?

He would not.

He won't.

But he would wish to go beyond the non-physician?

But would he want to go beyond the non-physician?

Yes.

Yes.

And about knowledge and ignorance in general; see whether you think that any man who has knowledge ever would wish to have the choice of saying or doing more than another man who has knowledge. Would he not rather say or do the same as his like in the same case?

And regarding knowledge and ignorance in general, consider whether you believe that any knowledgeable person would ever want to say or do more than another knowledgeable person. Wouldn’t he prefer to say or do the same as someone like him in the same situation?

That, I suppose, can hardly be denied.

That, I guess, can hardly be denied.

And what of the ignorant? would he not desire to have more than either the knowing or the ignorant?

And what about the ignorant? Wouldn't they want to have more than either the knowledgeable or the ignorant?

I dare say.

I would say.

And the knowing is wise?

Knowledge is wisdom?

Yes.

Yes.

And the wise is good?

Is the wise person good?

True.

True.

Then the wise and good will not desire to gain more than his like, but more than his unlike and opposite?

Then the wise and good person will not want to gain more than someone similar to them, but rather more than someone who is different and their opposite?

I suppose so.

I guess so.

Whereas the bad and ignorant will desire to gain more than both?

Whereas the greedy and clueless will want to get more than both?

Yes.

Yep.

But did we not say, Thrasymachus, that the unjust goes beyond both his like and unlike? Were not these your words?

But didn’t we say, Thrasymachus, that the unjust person surpasses both their equals and those who are different? Were those not your words?

They were.

They existed.

And you also said that the just will not go beyond his like but his unlike?

And you also said that the just person won’t go beyond their own kind but will stick to those who are different?

Yes.

Yes.

Then the just is like the wise and good, and the unjust like the evil and ignorant?

Then the just person is like the wise and good, and the unjust person is like the evil and ignorant?

That is the inference.

That's the inference.

And each of them is such as his like is?

And each of them is just like the person they resemble?

That was admitted.

That was acknowledged.

Then the just has turned out to be wise and good and the unjust evil and ignorant.

Then the just has proven to be wise and good, while the unjust has turned out to be evil and ignorant.

Thrasymachus made all these admissions, not fluently, as I repeat them, but with extreme reluctance; it was a hot summer’s day, and the perspiration poured from him in torrents; and then I saw what I had never seen before, Thrasymachus blushing. As we were now agreed that justice was virtue and wisdom, and injustice vice and ignorance, I proceeded to another point:

Thrasymachus made all these admissions, not smoothly, as I repeat them, but with a lot of hesitation; it was a hot summer day, and sweat was pouring off him. Then I saw something I had never seen before: Thrasymachus was blushing. Since we now agreed that justice was virtue and wisdom, and injustice was vice and ignorance, I moved on to another point:

Well, I said, Thrasymachus, that matter is now settled; but were we not also saying that injustice had strength; do you remember?

Well, I said, Thrasymachus, that’s settled now; but weren’t we also saying that injustice has power? Do you remember?

Yes, I remember, he said, but do not suppose that I approve of what you are saying or have no answer; if however I were to answer, you would be quite certain to accuse me of haranguing; therefore either permit me to have my say out, or if you would rather ask, do so, and I will answer ‘Very good,’ as they say to story-telling old women, and will nod ‘Yes’ and ‘No.’

Yes, I remember, he said, but don’t think that I agree with what you’re saying or that I don’t have a response; if I were to respond, you’d probably accuse me of lecturing; so either let me finish what I have to say, or if you prefer to ask, go ahead, and I’ll respond with ‘Sounds good,’ like you would to an old woman telling stories, and I’ll nod ‘Yes’ and ‘No.’

Certainly not, I said, if contrary to your real opinion.

Certainly not, I said, if it's not what you really think.

Yes, he said, I will, to please you, since you will not let me speak. What else would you have?

Yes, he said, I will, to make you happy, since you won't let me talk. What else do you want?

Nothing in the world, I said; and if you are so disposed I will ask and you shall answer.

Nothing in the world, I said; and if you're willing, I'll ask and you will answer.

Proceed.

Understood! Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.

Then I will repeat the question which I asked before, in order that our examination of the relative nature of justice and injustice may be carried on regularly. A statement was made that injustice is stronger and more powerful than justice, but now justice, having been identified with wisdom and virtue, is easily shown to be stronger than injustice, if injustice is ignorance; this can no longer be questioned by any one. But I want to view the matter, Thrasymachus, in a different way: You would not deny that a state may be unjust and may be unjustly attempting to enslave other states, or may have already enslaved them, and may be holding many of them in subjection?

Then I'll ask the question I raised before, so we can keep our discussion about the nature of justice and injustice on track. Someone said that injustice is stronger and more powerful than justice, but now that we've linked justice with wisdom and virtue, it's clear that justice is actually stronger than injustice, especially if we consider injustice to be a form of ignorance; this is no longer up for debate. However, I want to look at this differently, Thrasymachus: would you deny that a state can be unjust and might unjustly try to enslave other states, or might have already enslaved them, and could be keeping many of them under control?

True, he replied; and I will add that the best and most perfectly unjust state will be most likely to do so.

True, he replied; and I'll add that the best and most completely unjust system is the one most likely to achieve that.

I know, I said, that such was your position; but what I would further consider is, whether this power which is possessed by the superior state can exist or be exercised without justice or only with justice.

I understand, I said, that this is your stance; but what I want to consider further is whether this power held by the dominant state can exist or be exercised without justice, or only with justice.

If you are right in your view, and justice is wisdom, then only with justice; but if I am right, then without justice.

If you’re correct in your opinion, and justice is wisdom, then it’s only with justice; but if I’m right, then it’s without justice.

I am delighted, Thrasymachus, to see you not only nodding assent and dissent, but making answers which are quite excellent.

I’m glad to see you, Thrasymachus, not just agreeing or disagreeing, but giving really great responses.

That is out of civility to you, he replied.

That's just out of politeness to you, he replied.

You are very kind, I said; and would you have the goodness also to inform me, whether you think that a state, or an army, or a band of robbers and thieves, or any other gang of evil-doers could act at all if they injured one another?

"You’re very kind," I said. "Could you also let me know if you think that a state, an army, a group of robbers and thieves, or any other gang of wrongdoers could function at all if they harmed each other?"

No indeed, he said, they could not.

No, they really couldn't, he said.

But if they abstained from injuring one another, then they might act together better?

But if they refrained from hurting each other, would they be able to work together more effectively?

Yes.

Yes.

And this is because injustice creates divisions and hatreds and fighting, and justice imparts harmony and friendship; is not that true, Thrasymachus?

And that's because injustice causes divisions, hatred, and conflict, while justice brings about harmony and friendship; isn't that right, Thrasymachus?

I agree, he said, because I do not wish to quarrel with you.

"I agree," he said, "because I don’t want to argue with you."

How good of you, I said; but I should like to know also whether injustice, having this tendency to arouse hatred, wherever existing, among slaves or among freemen, will not make them hate one another and set them at variance and render them incapable of common action?

That's great of you, I said; but I would also like to know if injustice, which tends to provoke hatred wherever it exists, whether among slaves or free people, will not cause them to hate each other and create conflict, making them unable to work together?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And even if injustice be found in two only, will they not quarrel and fight, and become enemies to one another and to the just?

And even if there’s injustice between just two people, won’t they argue and fight, becoming enemies to each other and to the fair?

They will.

They definitely will.

And suppose injustice abiding in a single person, would your wisdom say that she loses or that she retains her natural power?

And if injustice exists in just one person, would your wisdom say that she loses or keeps her natural strength?

Let us assume that she retains her power.

Let’s assume that she keeps her power.

Yet is not the power which injustice exercises of such a nature that wherever she takes up her abode, whether in a city, in an army, in a family, or in any other body, that body is, to begin with, rendered incapable of united action by reason of sedition and distraction; and does it not become its own enemy and at variance with all that opposes it, and with the just? Is not this the case?

Yet isn’t the power that injustice holds such that wherever it settles, whether in a city, an army, a family, or any other group, that group becomes, first and foremost, incapable of working together because of conflict and confusion? Doesn’t it turn against itself and conflict with everything that stands in its way, and with what is just? Isn’t this true?

Yes, certainly.

Yep, definitely.

And is not injustice equally fatal when existing in a single person; in the first place rendering him incapable of action because he is not at unity with himself, and in the second place making him an enemy to himself and the just? Is not that true, Thrasymachus?

And isn’t injustice just as deadly when it’s present in an individual? First, it prevents them from taking action because they’re not in harmony with themselves, and second, it turns them into an enemy of themselves and of what’s right. Isn’t that right, Thrasymachus?

Yes.

Yes.

And O my friend, I said, surely the gods are just?

And oh my friend, I said, surely the gods are fair?

Granted that they are.

Granted that they are.

But if so, the unjust will be the enemy of the gods, and the just will be their friend?

But if that’s the case, then the unjust will be the enemies of the gods, and the just will be their friends?

Feast away in triumph, and take your fill of the argument; I will not oppose you, lest I should displease the company.

Feast in celebration, and enjoy the discussion; I won’t challenge you, so I don’t upset the group.

Well then, proceed with your answers, and let me have the remainder of my repast. For we have already shown that the just are clearly wiser and better and abler than the unjust, and that the unjust are incapable of common action; nay more, that to speak as we did of men who are evil acting at any time vigorously together, is not strictly true, for if they had been perfectly evil, they would have laid hands upon one another; but it is evident that there must have been some remnant of justice in them, which enabled them to combine; if there had not been they would have injured one another as well as their victims; they were but half-villains in their enterprises; for had they been whole villains, and utterly unjust, they would have been utterly incapable of action. That, as I believe, is the truth of the matter, and not what you said at first. But whether the just have a better and happier life than the unjust is a further question which we also proposed to consider. I think that they have, and for the reasons which I have given; but still I should like to examine further, for no light matter is at stake, nothing less than the rule of human life.

Well then, go ahead with your answers, and let me enjoy the rest of my meal. We've already established that the just are clearly wiser, better, and more capable than the unjust, and that the unjust can't work together effectively. In fact, when we talked about evil people acting together, it wasn't entirely accurate. If they were perfectly evil, they would have turned against each other; but it's clear that there must have been some trace of justice in them that allowed them to team up. If there hadn't been, they would have harmed each other as much as their victims. They were only halfway criminals in their actions; if they had been completely villainous and totally unjust, they wouldn't have been able to take any action at all. That, I believe, is the truth of the matter, not what you originally said. However, whether the just have a better and happier life than the unjust is another question we intended to explore. I believe they do, and for the reasons I've mentioned; but I would still like to investigate further because this is a serious issue—nothing less than the foundation of human life.

Proceed.

Understood. Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.

I will proceed by asking a question: Would you not say that a horse has some end?

I’ll start with a question: Wouldn’t you agree that a horse has some purpose?

I should.

I should.

And the end or use of a horse or of anything would be that which could not be accomplished, or not so well accomplished, by any other thing?

And the purpose of a horse, or anything else, would be what cannot be done, or not done as well, by anything else?

I do not understand, he said.

"I don't get it," he said.

Let me explain: Can you see, except with the eye?

Let me explain: Can you see, other than with your eyes?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Or hear, except with the ear?

Or listen, but not with the ear?

No.

No.

These then may be truly said to be the ends of these organs?

These can truly be said to be the purposes of these organs?

They may.

They might.

But you can cut off a vine-branch with a dagger or with a chisel, and in many other ways?

But you can cut a vine branch with a dagger or a chisel, or in many other ways?

Of course.

Of course.

And yet not so well as with a pruning-hook made for the purpose?

And yet, isn't it better with a pruning hook designed for the job?

True.

True.

May we not say that this is the end of a pruning-hook?

May we not say that this is the end of a pruning hook?

We may.

Sure!

Then now I think you will have no difficulty in understanding my meaning when I asked the question whether the end of anything would be that which could not be accomplished, or not so well accomplished, by any other thing?

Then now I think you will easily understand what I mean when I asked whether the end of anything would be something that couldn’t be achieved, or not achieved as well, by anything else?

I understand your meaning, he said, and assent.

I get what you're saying, he said, and I agree.

And that to which an end is appointed has also an excellence? Need I ask again whether the eye has an end?

And does something that has an end also have value? Do I really need to ask again if the eye has a purpose?

It has.

It does.

And has not the eye an excellence?

And doesn't the eye have a certain excellence?

Yes.

Yes.

And the ear has an end and an excellence also?

And does the ear have a purpose and a quality too?

True.

True.

And the same is true of all other things; they have each of them an end and a special excellence?

And the same goes for everything else; each of them has a purpose and a unique quality.

That is so.

That's true.

Well, and can the eyes fulfil their end if they are wanting in their own proper excellence and have a defect instead?

Well, can the eyes do their job if they lack their own proper quality and have a flaw instead?

How can they, he said, if they are blind and cannot see?

How can they, he said, if they're blind and can't see?

You mean to say, if they have lost their proper excellence, which is sight; but I have not arrived at that point yet. I would rather ask the question more generally, and only enquire whether the things which fulfil their ends fulfil them by their own proper excellence, and fail of fulfilling them by their own defect?

You mean to say, if they have lost their true excellence, which is sight; but I haven't gotten to that point yet. I would prefer to ask the question more generally and just inquire whether the things that achieve their purposes do so through their own true excellence, and fail to achieve them because of their own shortcomings?

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

I might say the same of the ears; when deprived of their own proper excellence they cannot fulfil their end?

I could say the same about the ears; when they lack their own proper quality, they can't do their job.

True.

True.

And the same observation will apply to all other things?

And the same observation applies to everything else?

I agree.

I’m in.

Well; and has not the soul an end which nothing else can fulfil? for example, to superintend and command and deliberate and the like. Are not these functions proper to the soul, and can they rightly be assigned to any other?

Well, doesn't the soul have a purpose that nothing else can fulfill? For instance, to oversee, direct, think things through, and so on. Are these functions not unique to the soul, and can they truly be attributed to anything else?

To no other.

To no one else.

And is not life to be reckoned among the ends of the soul?

And shouldn’t life be considered one of the goals of the soul?

Assuredly, he said.

For sure, he said.

And has not the soul an excellence also?

And doesn't the soul have its own excellence too?

Yes.

Yes.

And can she or can she not fulfil her own ends when deprived of that excellence?

And can she or can she not achieve her own goals when she lacks that quality?

She cannot.

She can't.

Then an evil soul must necessarily be an evil ruler and superintendent, and the good soul a good ruler?

Then an evil person must be a bad leader and supervisor, and a good person must be a good leader?

Yes, necessarily.

Yes, definitely.

And we have admitted that justice is the excellence of the soul, and injustice the defect of the soul?

And have we not acknowledged that justice is the virtue of the soul, while injustice is its flaw?

That has been admitted.

That has been acknowledged.

Then the just soul and the just man will live well, and the unjust man will live ill?

Then the righteous person and the good man will live well, while the unjust person will live poorly?

That is what your argument proves.

That's what your argument indicates.

And he who lives well is blessed and happy, and he who lives ill the reverse of happy?

And the person who lives well is blessed and happy, while the one who lives poorly is the opposite of happy?

Certainly.

Sure.

Then the just is happy, and the unjust miserable?

Then the just person is happy, and the unjust person is miserable?

So be it.

So be it.

But happiness and not misery is profitable.

But happiness, not misery, is beneficial.

Of course.

Of course.

Then, my blessed Thrasymachus, injustice can never be more profitable than justice.

Then, my dear Thrasymachus, being unjust can never be more rewarding than being just.

Let this, Socrates, he said, be your entertainment at the Bendidea.

Let this, Socrates, he said, be your entertainment at the Bendidea.

For which I am indebted to you, I said, now that you have grown gentle towards me and have left off scolding. Nevertheless, I have not been well entertained; but that was my own fault and not yours. As an epicure snatches a taste of every dish which is successively brought to table, he not having allowed himself time to enjoy the one before, so have I gone from one subject to another without having discovered what I sought at first, the nature of justice. I left that enquiry and turned away to consider whether justice is virtue and wisdom or evil and folly; and when there arose a further question about the comparative advantages of justice and injustice, I could not refrain from passing on to that. And the result of the whole discussion has been that I know nothing at all. For I know not what justice is, and therefore I am not likely to know whether it is or is not a virtue, nor can I say whether the just man is happy or unhappy.

I owe you for this, I said, now that you’ve become kinder to me and stopped scolding. Still, I haven’t been very well entertained; but that’s my own fault, not yours. Just like a foodie who samples every dish as it’s served up, without taking the time to enjoy any one of them, I’ve jumped from one topic to another without figuring out what I initially set out to find, which is the nature of justice. I abandoned that inquiry and shifted my focus to whether justice is virtue and wisdom or something evil and foolish; and when the question of the relative benefits of justice versus injustice came up, I couldn’t resist exploring that too. In the end, I realized I know nothing at all. I don’t even know what justice is, so I can’t say whether it’s a virtue or not, nor can I determine whether a just person is happy or unhappy.

BOOK II.

With these words I was thinking that I had made an end of the discussion; but the end, in truth, proved to be only a beginning. For Glaucon, who is always the most pugnacious of men, was dissatisfied at Thrasymachus’ retirement; he wanted to have the battle out. So he said to me: Socrates, do you wish really to persuade us, or only to seem to have persuaded us, that to be just is always better than to be unjust?

With these words, I thought I had ended the discussion; but the end was really just the beginning. Glaucon, who is always the most combative person, was unhappy with Thrasymachus leaving; he wanted to continue the debate. So he said to me: Socrates, do you genuinely want to convince us, or just to appear to have convinced us, that being just is always better than being unjust?

I should wish really to persuade you, I replied, if I could.

I truly wish I could convince you, I replied.

Then you certainly have not succeeded. Let me ask you now:—How would you arrange goods—are there not some which we welcome for their own sakes, and independently of their consequences, as, for example, harmless pleasures and enjoyments, which delight us at the time, although nothing follows from them?

Then you definitely haven't succeeded. Let me ask you now:—How would you organize things—aren't there some that we appreciate just for themselves, regardless of the outcomes, like harmless pleasures and joys that make us happy in the moment, even if nothing comes from them?

I agree in thinking that there is such a class, I replied.

I agree that there is definitely such a class, I replied.

Is there not also a second class of goods, such as knowledge, sight, health, which are desirable not only in themselves, but also for their results?

Isn't there also a second type of goods, like knowledge, vision, and health, that are valuable not just for their own sake but also for the outcomes they bring?

Certainly, I said.

Sure, I said.

And would you not recognize a third class, such as gymnastic, and the care of the sick, and the physician’s art; also the various ways of money-making—these do us good but we regard them as disagreeable; and no one would choose them for their own sakes, but only for the sake of some reward or result which flows from them?

And wouldn’t you recognize a third category, like sports, taking care of the sick, and the practice of medicine; also the various ways to make money—these benefit us, but we see them as unpleasant; and no one would choose them for their own sake, but only for the reward or outcome that comes from them?

There is, I said, this third class also. But why do you ask?

There’s also this third group, I said. But why are you asking?

Because I want to know in which of the three classes you would place justice?

Because I want to know which of the three classes you would put justice in?

In the highest class, I replied,—among those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results.

In the highest class, I replied, —among those things that someone who wants to be happy seeks both for themselves and for their outcomes.

Then the many are of another mind; they think that justice is to be reckoned in the troublesome class, among goods which are to be pursued for the sake of rewards and of reputation, but in themselves are disagreeable and rather to be avoided.

Then the majority have a different opinion; they believe that justice is tied to the difficult things, among rewards and reputation that people chase after, but are actually unpleasant and should be avoided.

I know, I said, that this is their manner of thinking, and that this was the thesis which Thrasymachus was maintaining just now, when he censured justice and praised injustice. But I am too stupid to be convinced by him.

I know, I said, that this is how they think, and that this was the point Thrasymachus was making just now when he criticized justice and praised injustice. But I'm too clueless to be convinced by him.

I wish, he said, that you would hear me as well as him, and then I shall see whether you and I agree. For Thrasymachus seems to me, like a snake, to have been charmed by your voice sooner than he ought to have been; but to my mind the nature of justice and injustice have not yet been made clear. Setting aside their rewards and results, I want to know what they are in themselves, and how they inwardly work in the soul. If you, please, then, I will revive the argument of Thrasymachus. And first I will speak of the nature and origin of justice according to the common view of them. Secondly, I will show that all men who practise justice do so against their will, of necessity, but not as a good. And thirdly, I will argue that there is reason in this view, for the life of the unjust is after all better far than the life of the just—if what they say is true, Socrates, since I myself am not of their opinion. But still I acknowledge that I am perplexed when I hear the voices of Thrasymachus and myriads of others dinning in my ears; and, on the other hand, I have never yet heard the superiority of justice to injustice maintained by any one in a satisfactory way. I want to hear justice praised in respect of itself; then I shall be satisfied, and you are the person from whom I think that I am most likely to hear this; and therefore I will praise the unjust life to the utmost of my power, and my manner of speaking will indicate the manner in which I desire to hear you too praising justice and censuring injustice. Will you say whether you approve of my proposal?

"I wish," he said, "that you would listen to me as well as you listen to him, and then I can see if we agree. It seems to me that Thrasymachus, like a snake, has been charmed by your voice sooner than he should have been; however, I don’t think we’ve fully clarified what justice and injustice really are. Putting aside their rewards and consequences, I want to understand what they are on their own and how they truly operate within the soul. If you’re willing, I will revisit Thrasymachus's argument. First, I will discuss the nature and origins of justice based on common beliefs. Second, I will argue that everyone who practices justice does so reluctantly, out of necessity, and not because they see it as good. Third, I will explain why there's some truth to this perspective, since the life of the unjust is, after all, much better than that of the just—if what they say is true, Socrates, as I personally don’t share their view. Still, I admit I feel confused when I hear Thrasymachus and countless others echoing in my mind; on the other hand, I've never heard anyone convincingly argue for the superiority of justice over injustice. I want to hear justice praised for what it is; then I will feel satisfied, and I believe you are the person who can best provide that. Therefore, I will advocate for the unjust life as strongly as I can, and the way I speak will reflect how I wish to hear you praise justice and criticize injustice. Will you let me know if you agree with my approach?"

Indeed I do; nor can I imagine any theme about which a man of sense would oftener wish to converse.

I certainly do; and I can't think of any topic that a sensible person would want to talk about more often.

I am delighted, he replied, to hear you say so, and shall begin by speaking, as I proposed, of the nature and origin of justice.

"I'm glad to hear you say that," he replied, "and I'll start by discussing, as I suggested, the nature and origin of justice."

They say that to do injustice is, by nature, good; to suffer injustice, evil; but that the evil is greater than the good. And so when men have both done and suffered injustice and have had experience of both, not being able to avoid the one and obtain the other, they think that they had better agree among themselves to have neither; hence there arise laws and mutual covenants; and that which is ordained by law is termed by them lawful and just. This they affirm to be the origin and nature of justice;—it is a mean or compromise, between the best of all, which is to do injustice and not be punished, and the worst of all, which is to suffer injustice without the power of retaliation; and justice, being at a middle point between the two, is tolerated not as a good, but as the lesser evil, and honoured by reason of the inability of men to do injustice. For no man who is worthy to be called a man would ever submit to such an agreement if he were able to resist; he would be mad if he did. Such is the received account, Socrates, of the nature and origin of justice.

They say that doing wrong is naturally beneficial, while suffering wrong is bad; however, the bad is worse than the good. So when people have both committed and endured wrongs and have experienced both sides, unable to escape one and gain the other, they figure it's better to come to an agreement to avoid both; this leads to the creation of laws and mutual agreements. What is established by law is considered lawful and just. They claim this is the origin and nature of justice—it’s a middle ground or compromise between the best, which is to commit injustice without facing consequences, and the worst, which is to suffer injustice without the ability to retaliate. Justice stands at a point between the two, accepted not as a good, but as the lesser evil, valued because people can’t always avoid wrongdoing. For no one truly worthy of being called a person would agree to such a pact if they could resist; they would be foolish to do so. This is the widely accepted explanation, Socrates, of the nature and origin of justice.

Now that those who practise justice do so involuntarily and because they have not the power to be unjust will best appear if we imagine something of this kind: having given both to the just and the unjust power to do what they will, let us watch and see whither desire will lead them; then we shall discover in the very act the just and unjust man to be proceeding along the same road, following their interest, which all natures deem to be their good, and are only diverted into the path of justice by the force of law. The liberty which we are supposing may be most completely given to them in the form of such a power as is said to have been possessed by Gyges, the ancestor of Croesus the Lydian. According to the tradition, Gyges was a shepherd in the service of the king of Lydia; there was a great storm, and an earthquake made an opening in the earth at the place where he was feeding his flock. Amazed at the sight, he descended into the opening, where, among other marvels, he beheld a hollow brazen horse, having doors, at which he stooping and looking in saw a dead body of stature, as appeared to him, more than human, and having nothing on but a gold ring; this he took from the finger of the dead and reascended. Now the shepherds met together, according to custom, that they might send their monthly report about the flocks to the king; into their assembly he came having the ring on his finger, and as he was sitting among them he chanced to turn the collet of the ring inside his hand, when instantly he became invisible to the rest of the company and they began to speak of him as if he were no longer present. He was astonished at this, and again touching the ring he turned the collet outwards and reappeared; he made several trials of the ring, and always with the same result—when he turned the collet inwards he became invisible, when outwards he reappeared. Whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who were sent to the court; whereas soon as he arrived he seduced the queen, and with her help conspired against the king and slew him, and took the kingdom. Suppose now that there were two such magic rings, and the just put on one of them and the unjust the other; no man can be imagined to be of such an iron nature that he would stand fast in justice. No man would keep his hands off what was not his own when he could safely take what he liked out of the market, or go into houses and lie with any one at his pleasure, or kill or release from prison whom he would, and in all respects be like a God among men. Then the actions of the just would be as the actions of the unjust; they would both come at last to the same point. And this we may truly affirm to be a great proof that a man is just, not willingly or because he thinks that justice is any good to him individually, but of necessity, for wherever any one thinks that he can safely be unjust, there he is unjust. For all men believe in their hearts that injustice is far more profitable to the individual than justice, and he who argues as I have been supposing, will say that they are right. If you could imagine any one obtaining this power of becoming invisible, and never doing any wrong or touching what was another’s, he would be thought by the lookers-on to be a most wretched idiot, although they would praise him to one another’s faces, and keep up appearances with one another from a fear that they too might suffer injustice. Enough of this.

Now that people who practice justice do so involuntarily and because they lack the ability to be unjust, it will be clearer if we picture something like this: if we give both just and unjust people the power to do whatever they want, let's observe where their desires lead them. Then we'll see that both the just and unjust person would head down the same path, pursuing their own interests, which all beings consider their good, and are only guided toward justice by the force of law. The freedom we're talking about could be granted fully in the form of a power similar to what is said to belong to Gyges, the ancestor of Croesus of Lydia. According to legend, Gyges was a shepherd serving the king of Lydia; during a massive storm, an earthquake created an opening in the ground where he was tending his flock. Astonished by the sight, he climbed down into the opening, where he found many wonders, including a hollow bronze horse with doors. Crouching to look inside, he saw a dead body, which appeared to be more than human and clad only in a gold ring. He took this ring from the dead person's finger and ascended back up. The shepherds would gather, as was their custom, to send their monthly report about the flocks to the king; he joined their assembly wearing the ring on his finger, and as he sat with them, he accidentally turned the bezel of the ring inward, becoming invisible to the rest of the group, who began talking about him as if he were no longer there. He was amazed by this, and when he turned the ring outward again, he reappeared; he tested the ring several times, each time with the same outcome—turning the bezel inward made him invisible, while turning it outward made him visible again. He then devised a plan to be chosen as one of the messengers sent to the court; as soon as he arrived, he seduced the queen, and with her aid, plotted against the king, killing him and seizing the throne. Now, imagine if there were two such magical rings, and the just person wore one while the unjust one wore the other; it seems unlikely that anyone could possess such a rigid character that they would remain committed to justice. No one would refrain from taking what wasn't theirs if they could safely grab whatever they wanted from the market, sneak into houses, sleep with anyone they pleased, or kill or free anyone from prison, essentially acting as a god among men. Eventually, the actions of the just would mirror those of the unjust; they would ultimately reach the same conclusion. This strongly supports the idea that a person is just, not by choice or because they believe justice yields personal benefit, but out of necessity. Because wherever someone thinks they can get away with being unjust, they will be unjust. Everyone believes in their hearts that being unjust is far more beneficial for them than being just, and those who would argue as I have suggested would say they're correct. If you could imagine someone gaining the ability to become invisible and never doing any wrong or taking what belongs to others, they would be viewed by onlookers as a pathetic fool, even though people would praise him to each other's faces and maintain appearances out of fear that they too might face injustice. That's enough of this.

Now, if we are to form a real judgment of the life of the just and unjust, we must isolate them; there is no other way; and how is the isolation to be effected? I answer: Let the unjust man be entirely unjust, and the just man entirely just; nothing is to be taken away from either of them, and both are to be perfectly furnished for the work of their respective lives. First, let the unjust be like other distinguished masters of craft; like the skilful pilot or physician, who knows intuitively his own powers and keeps within their limits, and who, if he fails at any point, is able to recover himself. So let the unjust make his unjust attempts in the right way, and lie hidden if he means to be great in his injustice: (he who is found out is nobody:) for the highest reach of injustice is, to be deemed just when you are not. Therefore I say that in the perfectly unjust man we must assume the most perfect injustice; there is to be no deduction, but we must allow him, while doing the most unjust acts, to have acquired the greatest reputation for justice. If he have taken a false step he must be able to recover himself; he must be one who can speak with effect, if any of his deeds come to light, and who can force his way where force is required by his courage and strength, and command of money and friends. And at his side let us place the just man in his nobleness and simplicity, wishing, as Aeschylus says, to be and not to seem good. There must be no seeming, for if he seem to be just he will be honoured and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice or for the sake of honours and rewards; therefore, let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering; and he must be imagined in a state of life the opposite of the former. Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worst; then he will have been put to the proof; and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy and its consequences. And let him continue thus to the hour of death; being just and seeming to be unjust. When both have reached the uttermost extreme, the one of justice and the other of injustice, let judgment be given which of them is the happier of the two.

Now, to really judge the lives of the just and unjust, we need to separate them; there's no other way to do this. So how do we achieve this separation? Here’s my answer: Let the unjust man be completely unjust, and the just man completely just; we shouldn't take anything away from either of them, and both should be fully equipped for their respective lives. First, let the unjust man be like other skilled professionals; like a competent pilot or doctor, who instinctively knows his own abilities and stays within those limits, and if he stumbles at any point, he can recover. Similarly, let the unjust man make his unethical moves skillfully, remaining hidden if he wants to succeed in his wrongdoing: (those who get caught are nobodies:) because the ultimate goal of being unjust is to be thought just when you’re not. Therefore, I contend that we should assume the most extreme form of injustice in the perfectly unjust man; there should be no reductions, but we must allow him to perform the most unethical acts while gaining the greatest reputation for justice. If he makes a mistake, he should be able to bounce back; he must be someone who can talk convincingly if any of his actions come to light, and who can push his way through when necessary, with the courage, strength, resources, and connections he has. Next to him, we should place the just man in his nobility and simplicity, wanting, as Aeschylus said, to actually be good and not just appear to be good. There must be no pretense, because if he seems just, he will receive honor and rewards, and then we won’t know if he is just for the sake of justice or for the sake of accolades; so, let him be dressed only in justice, with no other façade; and we must envision him in a life that is the complete opposite of the unjust man’s. Let him be the best of men while being regarded as the worst; then he will truly be tested, and we’ll see if he’ll be affected by the fear of disgrace and its repercussions. And let him stay that way until the moment of death, being just while appearing to be unjust. When both have reached their extremes—one in justice and the other in injustice—let's judge which of them is the happier.

Heavens! my dear Glaucon, I said, how energetically you polish them up for the decision, first one and then the other, as if they were two statues.

Wow! My dear Glaucon, I said, you really get into it as you refine them for the decision, first one and then the other, as if they were two sculptures.

I do my best, he said. And now that we know what they are like there is no difficulty in tracing out the sort of life which awaits either of them. This I will proceed to describe; but as you may think the description a little too coarse, I ask you to suppose, Socrates, that the words which follow are not mine.—Let me put them into the mouths of the eulogists of injustice: They will tell you that the just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, racked, bound—will have his eyes burnt out; and, at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled: Then he will understand that he ought to seem only, and not to be, just; the words of Aeschylus may be more truly spoken of the unjust than of the just. For the unjust is pursuing a reality; he does not live with a view to appearances—he wants to be really unjust and not to seem only:—

"I do my best," he said. "And now that we know what they're like, it's easy to figure out the kind of life that awaits either of them. I will describe this, but since you might find the description a bit too harsh, I ask you to suppose, Socrates, that the following words aren’t mine. Let me put them in the mouths of those who praise injustice: They will say that the just person, who is thought to be unjust, will be beaten, tortured, tied up—will have his eyes burned out; and finally, after enduring every kind of suffering, he will be impaled. Then he will realize that he should only appear just, not actually be just; the lines of Aeschylus may apply more accurately to the unjust than to the just. Because the unjust is pursuing a reality; he doesn't live for appearances—he wants to truly be unjust, not just seem it."

‘His mind has a soil deep and fertile, Out of which spring his prudent counsels.’

‘His mind is deep and fertile soil, from which wise thoughts grow.’

In the first place, he is thought just, and therefore bears rule in the city; he can marry whom he will, and give in marriage to whom he will; also he can trade and deal where he likes, and always to his own advantage, because he has no misgivings about injustice; and at every contest, whether in public or private, he gets the better of his antagonists, and gains at their expense, and is rich, and out of his gains he can benefit his friends, and harm his enemies; moreover, he can offer sacrifices, and dedicate gifts to the gods abundantly and magnificently, and can honour the gods or any man whom he wants to honour in a far better style than the just, and therefore he is likely to be dearer than they are to the gods. And thus, Socrates, gods and men are said to unite in making the life of the unjust better than the life of the just.

First of all, people see him as just, which is why he holds power in the city; he can marry anyone he chooses and arrange marriages for others as well. He can also trade and conduct business wherever he likes, always to his own benefit, because he has no doubts about his fairness. In every competition, whether public or private, he outperforms his rivals and profits at their expense, becoming wealthy. With his wealth, he helps his friends and harms his enemies. Moreover, he can offer sacrifices and dedicate gifts to the gods in a lavish and impressive manner, honoring the gods or anyone he wishes in a much better way than the just can. This makes him more favored by both gods and men. So, Socrates, it’s said that both gods and people agree that the life of the unjust is better than that of the just.

I was going to say something in answer to Glaucon, when Adeimantus, his brother, interposed: Socrates, he said, you do not suppose that there is nothing more to be urged?

I was about to respond to Glaucon when his brother, Adeimantus, interrupted: "Socrates," he said, "you don't think there's nothing more to add?"

Why, what else is there? I answered.

Why, what else is there? I replied.

The strongest point of all has not been even mentioned, he replied.

The strongest point hasn’t even been mentioned, he replied.

Well, then, according to the proverb, ‘Let brother help brother’—if he fails in any part do you assist him; although I must confess that Glaucon has already said quite enough to lay me in the dust, and take from me the power of helping justice.

Well, then, according to the saying, ‘Let brother help brother’—if he struggles in any way, you should support him; although I have to admit that Glaucon has already said enough to leave me speechless and take away my ability to advocate for justice.

Nonsense, he replied. But let me add something more: There is another side to Glaucon’s argument about the praise and censure of justice and injustice, which is equally required in order to bring out what I believe to be his meaning. Parents and tutors are always telling their sons and their wards that they are to be just; but why? not for the sake of justice, but for the sake of character and reputation; in the hope of obtaining for him who is reputed just some of those offices, marriages, and the like which Glaucon has enumerated among the advantages accruing to the unjust from the reputation of justice. More, however, is made of appearances by this class of persons than by the others; for they throw in the good opinion of the gods, and will tell you of a shower of benefits which the heavens, as they say, rain upon the pious; and this accords with the testimony of the noble Hesiod and Homer, the first of whom says, that the gods make the oaks of the just—

"Nonsense," he replied. "But let me add something more: There’s another aspect to Glaucon’s argument about the praise and blame of justice and injustice that’s equally important for understanding his point. Parents and teachers constantly tell their kids and students to be just; but why? Not for the sake of justice itself, but for the sake of their character and reputation. They hope that being seen as just will help their children secure some of those positions, marriages, and similar benefits that Glaucon mentioned as advantages enjoyed by the unjust due to their reputation for justice. However, this group places more emphasis on appearances than others do; they bring in the opinion of the gods and will tell you about a flood of blessings that, as they say, the heavens send down on the virtuous. This aligns with what the esteemed Hesiod and Homer say, with the former claiming that the gods make the oaks of the just—"

‘To bear acorns at their summit, and bees in the middle;
And the sheep are bowed down with the weight of their fleeces,’

‘To have acorns at their top, and bees in the middle;
And the sheep are weighed down by the heaviness of their wool,’

and many other blessings of a like kind are provided for them. And Homer has a very similar strain; for he speaks of one whose fame is—

and many other blessings of a similar kind are provided for them. And Homer has a very similar theme; for he talks about someone whose fame is—

‘As the fame of some blameless king who, like a god, Maintains justice; to whom the black earth brings forth Wheat and barley, whose trees are bowed with fruit, And his sheep never fail to bear, and the sea gives him fish.’

‘As the fame of a virtuous king who, like a god, Upholds justice; to whom the fertile earth yields Wheat and barley, whose trees are heavy with fruit, And his sheep always produce, and the sea supplies him with fish.’

Still grander are the gifts of heaven which Musaeus and his son vouchsafe to the just; they take them down into the world below, where they have the saints lying on couches at a feast, everlastingly drunk, crowned with garlands; their idea seems to be that an immortality of drunkenness is the highest meed of virtue. Some extend their rewards yet further; the posterity, as they say, of the faithful and just shall survive to the third and fourth generation. This is the style in which they praise justice. But about the wicked there is another strain; they bury them in a slough in Hades, and make them carry water in a sieve; also while they are yet living they bring them to infamy, and inflict upon them the punishments which Glaucon described as the portion of the just who are reputed to be unjust; nothing else does their invention supply. Such is their manner of praising the one and censuring the other.

Even greater are the gifts of heaven that Musaeus and his son bestow upon the righteous; they bring them down to the underworld, where the saints lounge on couches at a never-ending feast, constantly drunk and crowned with garlands. Their idea seems to be that eternal drunkenness is the ultimate reward for virtue. Some even extend their rewards further; they claim that the descendants of the faithful and just will last for three or four generations. This is how they celebrate justice. But for the wicked, there's a different story; they bury them in a mire in Hades and make them carry water in a sieve. Also, while they're still alive, they subject them to disgrace and impose upon them the punishments that Glaucon described as the fate of the just who are thought to be unjust; their imagination offers nothing beyond that. This is how they honor one and criticize the other.

Once more, Socrates, I will ask you to consider another way of speaking about justice and injustice, which is not confined to the poets, but is found in prose writers. The universal voice of mankind is always declaring that justice and virtue are honourable, but grievous and toilsome; and that the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy of attainment, and are only censured by law and opinion. They say also that honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty; and they are quite ready to call wicked men happy, and to honour them both in public and private when they are rich or in any other way influential, while they despise and overlook those who may be weak and poor, even though acknowledging them to be better than the others. But most extraordinary of all is their mode of speaking about virtue and the gods: they say that the gods apportion calamity and misery to many good men, and good and happiness to the wicked. And mendicant prophets go to rich men’s doors and persuade them that they have a power committed to them by the gods of making an atonement for a man’s own or his ancestor’s sins by sacrifices or charms, with rejoicings and feasts; and they promise to harm an enemy, whether just or unjust, at a small cost; with magic arts and incantations binding heaven, as they say, to execute their will. And the poets are the authorities to whom they appeal, now smoothing the path of vice with the words of Hesiod;—

Once again, Socrates, I'm asking you to think about another perspective on justice and injustice, one that comes from prose writers rather than just poets. Everyone seems to agree that justice and virtue are admirable, but also difficult and burdensome; meanwhile, the pleasures of vice and injustice are easy to get and are only criticized by laws and societal opinions. They often claim that being honest is usually less rewarding than being dishonest, and they're quick to label wicked people as happy, honoring them both publicly and privately when they're wealthy or influential, while ignoring or looking down on those who are weak and poor, even if they recognize those individuals as better. But what's most shocking is how they talk about virtue and the gods: they assert that the gods give suffering and misery to many good people and grant fortune and happiness to the wicked. And opportunistic prophets go to the homes of the wealthy, convincing them they have the power given by the gods to atone for their own sins or their ancestors' sins through sacrifices or charms, celebrating with feasts; they also promise to harm an enemy, whether they're justified or not, for a small fee, using magical arts and incantations that supposedly bind heaven to fulfill their wishes. Moreover, the poets are the authorities they reference, smoothing the way for vice with the words of Hesiod;—

‘Vice may be had in abundance without trouble; the way is smooth and her dwelling-place is near. But before virtue the gods have set toil,’

‘You can find vice easily and without effort; the path is clear and its home is close. But the gods have placed hard work before virtue,’

and a tedious and uphill road: then citing Homer as a witness that the gods may be influenced by men; for he also says:—

and a long and difficult journey: then quoting Homer as proof that the gods can be swayed by humans; for he also says:—

‘The gods, too, may be turned from their purpose; and men pray to them and avert their wrath by sacrifices and soothing entreaties, and by libations and the odour of fat, when they have sinned and transgressed.’

‘The gods can also change their minds; people pray to them and try to calm their anger with sacrifices and gentle requests, along with pouring out drinks and the smell of fatty offerings, especially when they have done wrong.’

And they produce a host of books written by Musaeus and Orpheus, who were children of the Moon and the Muses—that is what they say—according to which they perform their ritual, and persuade not only individuals, but whole cities, that expiations and atonements for sin may be made by sacrifices and amusements which fill a vacant hour, and are equally at the service of the living and the dead; the latter sort they call mysteries, and they redeem us from the pains of hell, but if we neglect them no one knows what awaits us.

And they create a bunch of books written by Musaeus and Orpheus, who they say were kids of the Moon and the Muses. According to these works, they carry out their rituals and convince not only individuals but entire cities that making amends and atoning for sin can be done through sacrifices and entertainment that fill an empty hour, serving both the living and the dead. They refer to the latter as mysteries, claiming they free us from the pains of hell, but if we ignore them, no one knows what could happen to us.

He proceeded: And now when the young hear all this said about virtue and vice, and the way in which gods and men regard them, how are their minds likely to be affected, my dear Socrates,—those of them, I mean, who are quickwitted, and, like bees on the wing, light on every flower, and from all that they hear are prone to draw conclusions as to what manner of persons they should be and in what way they should walk if they would make the best of life? Probably the youth will say to himself in the words of Pindar—

He continued: And now when young people hear all this talk about virtue and vice, and how both gods and humans view them, how do you think this will affect their minds, my dear Socrates? I’m talking about those who are sharp-witted, and, like bees buzzing from flower to flower, quickly draw conclusions from everything they hear about the kind of people they should be and how they should live if they want to get the most out of life. The youth will probably say to themselves in the words of Pindar—

‘Can I by justice or by crooked ways of deceit ascend a loftier tower which may be a fortress to me all my days?’

'Can I, through fairness or through dishonest tricks, reach a higher place that will protect me for the rest of my life?'

For what men say is that, if I am really just and am not also thought just profit there is none, but the pain and loss on the other hand are unmistakeable. But if, though unjust, I acquire the reputation of justice, a heavenly life is promised to me. Since then, as philosophers prove, appearance tyrannizes over truth and is lord of happiness, to appearance I must devote myself. I will describe around me a picture and shadow of virtue to be the vestibule and exterior of my house; behind I will trail the subtle and crafty fox, as Archilochus, greatest of sages, recommends. But I hear some one exclaiming that the concealment of wickedness is often difficult; to which I answer, Nothing great is easy. Nevertheless, the argument indicates this, if we would be happy, to be the path along which we should proceed. With a view to concealment we will establish secret brotherhoods and political clubs. And there are professors of rhetoric who teach the art of persuading courts and assemblies; and so, partly by persuasion and partly by force, I shall make unlawful gains and not be punished. Still I hear a voice saying that the gods cannot be deceived, neither can they be compelled. But what if there are no gods? or, suppose them to have no care of human things—why in either case should we mind about concealment? And even if there are gods, and they do care about us, yet we know of them only from tradition and the genealogies of the poets; and these are the very persons who say that they may be influenced and turned by ‘sacrifices and soothing entreaties and by offerings.’ Let us be consistent then, and believe both or neither. If the poets speak truly, why then we had better be unjust, and offer of the fruits of injustice; for if we are just, although we may escape the vengeance of heaven, we shall lose the gains of injustice; but, if we are unjust, we shall keep the gains, and by our sinning and praying, and praying and sinning, the gods will be propitiated, and we shall not be punished. ‘But there is a world below in which either we or our posterity will suffer for our unjust deeds.’ Yes, my friend, will be the reflection, but there are mysteries and atoning deities, and these have great power. That is what mighty cities declare; and the children of the gods, who were their poets and prophets, bear a like testimony.

What people say is that if I'm truly just and not just seen as just, there's no benefit, but the pain and loss are definitely real. However, if I act unjustly but earn a reputation for being just, I'm promised a divine life. Therefore, as philosophers explain, appearances dominate truth and dictate happiness, so I must focus on appearances. I will create a façade of virtue around me to serve as the entrance and exterior of my life; meanwhile, I will secretly follow the sly and crafty ways, as Archilochus, the wisest of men, advises. Yet I hear someone saying that hiding wickedness is often tricky; to that, I reply, nothing worthwhile is easy. Still, the argument suggests that if we want to be happy, this is the path we should take. To aid in concealment, we'll form secret societies and political groups. There are also teachers of rhetoric who show how to persuade courts and gatherings; so, partly through persuasion and partly through force, I will gain illegally without facing consequences. Yet I hear a voice saying that the gods can't be fooled, nor can they be forced. But what if there are no gods? Or if they don’t care about human matters—why should we worry about hiding our deeds in either case? And even if there are gods who care about us, we only know about them from stories and the myths crafted by poets, who are the same ones saying that they can be swayed by ‘sacrifices, pleas, and offerings.’ So let’s be consistent and either believe in both or neither. If the poets are right, then it’s better to be unjust and offer the gains from wrongdoing; because if we're just, we might avoid divine retribution, but we would miss out on the benefits of being unjust. However, if we are unjust, we keep the gains, and by our wrongdoing and praying, and praying and wrongdoing, we’ll appease the gods and escape punishment. “But there's an afterlife where either we or our descendants will pay for our unjust actions.” Yes, my friend, that's true, but there are mysteries and atoning deities with significant power. That's what mighty cities claim; and the offspring of the gods, who were their poets and prophets, support the same idea.

On what principle, then, shall we any longer choose justice rather than the worst injustice? when, if we only unite the latter with a deceitful regard to appearances, we shall fare to our mind both with gods and men, in life and after death, as the most numerous and the highest authorities tell us. Knowing all this, Socrates, how can a man who has any superiority of mind or person or rank or wealth, be willing to honour justice; or indeed to refrain from laughing when he hears justice praised? And even if there should be some one who is able to disprove the truth of my words, and who is satisfied that justice is best, still he is not angry with the unjust, but is very ready to forgive them, because he also knows that men are not just of their own free will; unless, peradventure, there be some one whom the divinity within him may have inspired with a hatred of injustice, or who has attained knowledge of the truth—but no other man. He only blames injustice who, owing to cowardice or age or some weakness, has not the power of being unjust. And this is proved by the fact that when he obtains the power, he immediately becomes unjust as far as he can be.

On what principle should we choose justice over the worst injustice? If we can combine the latter with a deceptive appearance, we'll be favored by both gods and humans, in life and after death, as many of the greatest authorities suggest. Knowing this, Socrates, how can someone who is superior in mind, body, status, or wealth genuinely respect justice, or even not laugh when they hear it praised? Even if someone could argue against what I'm saying and believes that justice is the best, they don't get mad at the unjust; instead, they're quick to forgive them because they understand that people aren't just by their own choice. Unless, perhaps, there's someone inspired by a divine spark who genuinely hates injustice or has attained true knowledge—but that's not the case for most people. People only criticize injustice when they lack the ability to be unjust themselves due to cowardice, age, or some other weakness. This is proven by the fact that once they gain the ability, they often become unjust as much as they can.

The cause of all this, Socrates, was indicated by us at the beginning of the argument, when my brother and I told you how astonished we were to find that of all the professing panegyrists of justice—beginning with the ancient heroes of whom any memorial has been preserved to us, and ending with the men of our own time—no one has ever blamed injustice or praised justice except with a view to the glories, honours, and benefits which flow from them. No one has ever adequately described either in verse or prose the true essential nature of either of them abiding in the soul, and invisible to any human or divine eye; or shown that of all the things of a man’s soul which he has within him, justice is the greatest good, and injustice the greatest evil. Had this been the universal strain, had you sought to persuade us of this from our youth upwards, we should not have been on the watch to keep one another from doing wrong, but every one would have been his own watchman, because afraid, if he did wrong, of harbouring in himself the greatest of evils. I dare say that Thrasymachus and others would seriously hold the language which I have been merely repeating, and words even stronger than these about justice and injustice, grossly, as I conceive, perverting their true nature. But I speak in this vehement manner, as I must frankly confess to you, because I want to hear from you the opposite side; and I would ask you to show not only the superiority which justice has over injustice, but what effect they have on the possessor of them which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil to him. And please, as Glaucon requested of you, to exclude reputations; for unless you take away from each of them his true reputation and add on the false, we shall say that you do not praise justice, but the appearance of it; we shall think that you are only exhorting us to keep injustice dark, and that you really agree with Thrasymachus in thinking that justice is another’s good and the interest of the stronger, and that injustice is a man’s own profit and interest, though injurious to the weaker. Now as you have admitted that justice is one of that highest class of goods which are desired indeed for their results, but in a far greater degree for their own sakes—like sight or hearing or knowledge or health, or any other real and natural and not merely conventional good—I would ask you in your praise of justice to regard one point only: I mean the essential good and evil which justice and injustice work in the possessors of them. Let others praise justice and censure injustice, magnifying the rewards and honours of the one and abusing the other; that is a manner of arguing which, coming from them, I am ready to tolerate, but from you who have spent your whole life in the consideration of this question, unless I hear the contrary from your own lips, I expect something better. And therefore, I say, not only prove to us that justice is better than injustice, but show what they either of them do to the possessor of them, which makes the one to be a good and the other an evil, whether seen or unseen by gods and men.

The reason for all this, Socrates, was what we mentioned at the start of our discussion when my brother and I expressed our amazement at discovering that none of the self-proclaimed champions of justice—from the ancient heroes we’ve heard about to the people of our time—have ever criticized injustice or praised justice except in terms of the glory, honor, and benefits that come from them. No one has ever truly described either of them in poetry or prose regarding their real essential nature as it exists in the soul and is unseen by any human or divine eye; nor has anyone shown that of all the aspects of a person’s soul, justice is the greatest good and injustice the greatest evil. If this perspective had been the norm, and if you had helped us understand this from a young age, we wouldn’t need to keep watch over each other to avoid wrongdoing. Instead, everyone would be their own guardian, fearing that committing a wrong would result in harboring the greatest of evils within themselves. I suspect that Thrasymachus and others would seriously argue the points I'm simply restating, perhaps even using stronger words about justice and injustice, grossly distorting their true nature as I see it. But I speak with this intensity, I must confess, because I want to hear your perspective; I ask you to demonstrate not only why justice is superior to injustice but also what effects they have on those who experience them that make one a good and the other an evil. And please, as Glaucon requested, leave out any discussions of reputation; unless you detach each from their true reputation and attach a false one, it will seem to us that you’re praising justice, not its true form. We might think you are only advising us to keep injustice hidden and that you actually agree with Thrasymachus, believing that justice is just the good of others and the interest of the stronger, while injustice is a person’s own gain, even at the cost of others. Now, since you’ve acknowledged that justice is one of those highest types of goods that are indeed desired for their outcomes, but even more so for their own sake—like sight, hearing, knowledge, or health, or any other real, natural good rather than merely a social construct—I ask you, in your praise of justice, to focus on one specific aspect: the inherent good and evil that justice and injustice create within those who possess them. Let others praise justice and condemn injustice, emphasizing the rewards and honors of the former while disparaging the latter; that's a way of arguing that I can tolerate coming from them, but from you, who have dedicated your entire life to this question, unless I hear otherwise from you, I expect something more substantial. Therefore, I say, not only prove to us that justice is better than injustice but also clarify what each does to those who possess them, revealing what makes one good and the other evil, whether observable by gods or men.

I had always admired the genius of Glaucon and Adeimantus, but on hearing these words I was quite delighted, and said: Sons of an illustrious father, that was not a bad beginning of the Elegiac verses which the admirer of Glaucon made in honour of you after you had distinguished yourselves at the battle of Megara:—

I had always admired the brilliance of Glaucon and Adeimantus, but when I heard those words, I was really pleased and said: Sons of a respected father, that was a great start to the Elegiac verses that Glaucon's admirer wrote in your honor after you distinguished yourselves at the battle of Megara:—

‘Sons of Ariston,’ he sang, ‘divine offspring of an illustrious hero.’

‘Sons of Ariston,’ he sang, ‘divine children of a legendary hero.’

The epithet is very appropriate, for there is something truly divine in being able to argue as you have done for the superiority of injustice, and remaining unconvinced by your own arguments. And I do believe that you are not convinced—this I infer from your general character, for had I judged only from your speeches I should have mistrusted you. But now, the greater my confidence in you, the greater is my difficulty in knowing what to say. For I am in a strait between two; on the one hand I feel that I am unequal to the task; and my inability is brought home to me by the fact that you were not satisfied with the answer which I made to Thrasymachus, proving, as I thought, the superiority which justice has over injustice. And yet I cannot refuse to help, while breath and speech remain to me; I am afraid that there would be an impiety in being present when justice is evil spoken of and not lifting up a hand in her defence. And therefore I had best give such help as I can.

The title fits perfectly because there's something truly remarkable about being able to argue for the superiority of injustice while not believing your own arguments. I genuinely think you're not convinced—this is what I gather from your overall character; if I had only listened to your speeches, I would have doubted you. But now, the more I trust you, the harder it is for me to know what to say. I'm torn between two things; on one hand, I feel like I'm not up to the challenge, and my struggle is highlighted by the fact that you weren't satisfied with my response to Thrasymachus, where I thought I proved that justice is better than injustice. Yet, I can't refuse to help as long as I have breath and speech; it would feel wrong to be present when justice is being criticized and not defend her. So, I should offer whatever help I can.

Glaucon and the rest entreated me by all means not to let the question drop, but to proceed in the investigation. They wanted to arrive at the truth, first, about the nature of justice and injustice, and secondly, about their relative advantages. I told them, what I really thought, that the enquiry would be of a serious nature, and would require very good eyes. Seeing then, I said, that we are no great wits, I think that we had better adopt a method which I may illustrate thus; suppose that a short-sighted person had been asked by some one to read small letters from a distance; and it occurred to some one else that they might be found in another place which was larger and in which the letters were larger—if they were the same and he could read the larger letters first, and then proceed to the lesser—this would have been thought a rare piece of good fortune.

Glaucon and the others urged me not to drop the question but to continue the investigation. They wanted to uncover the truth, first about what justice and injustice really are, and second about their respective benefits. I told them honestly that the inquiry would be serious and would need sharp insight. So, I said, since we're not the brightest, I think we should take an approach I can explain like this: imagine a person with poor eyesight being asked to read small letters from far away; then someone else suggests checking in a different place where the letters are bigger. If the larger letters are the same and he can read those first before moving on to the smaller ones, that would be considered quite a stroke of luck.

Very true, said Adeimantus; but how does the illustration apply to our enquiry?

Very true, said Adeimantus; but how does the example relate to our discussion?

I will tell you, I replied; justice, which is the subject of our enquiry, is, as you know, sometimes spoken of as the virtue of an individual, and sometimes as the virtue of a State.

I’ll tell you, I replied; justice, which is what we’re discussing, is, as you know, sometimes described as the virtue of a person and sometimes as the virtue of a government.

True, he replied.

Yeah, he replied.

And is not a State larger than an individual?

And isn't a state bigger than an individual?

It is.

It is.

Then in the larger the quantity of justice is likely to be larger and more easily discernible. I propose therefore that we enquire into the nature of justice and injustice, first as they appear in the State, and secondly in the individual, proceeding from the greater to the lesser and comparing them.

Then in larger quantities, justice is likely to be more abundant and easier to see. I suggest we look into the nature of justice and injustice, first as they show up in the State, and then in the individual, moving from the larger to the smaller and comparing them.

That, he said, is an excellent proposal.

“That’s an excellent proposal,” he said.

And if we imagine the State in process of creation, we shall see the justice and injustice of the State in process of creation also.

And if we picture the State being formed, we'll also see the justice and injustice of the State being formed.

I dare say.

I must say.

When the State is completed there may be a hope that the object of our search will be more easily discovered.

When the State is finished, there might be a chance that we'll find what we're looking for more easily.

Yes, far more easily.

Yes, much easier.

But ought we to attempt to construct one? I said; for to do so, as I am inclined to think, will be a very serious task. Reflect therefore.

But should we try to create one? I asked; because doing so, as I believe, will be a very challenging task. So think about it.

I have reflected, said Adeimantus, and am anxious that you should proceed.

“I’ve thought it over,” said Adeimantus, “and I’m eager for you to continue.”

A State, I said, arises, as I conceive, out of the needs of mankind; no one is self-sufficing, but all of us have many wants. Can any other origin of a State be imagined?

A State, I said, comes into being, as I see it, from the needs of people; no one is completely self-sufficient, and we all have various wants. Can we think of any other origin for a State?

There can be no other.

There can't be anyone else.

Then, as we have many wants, and many persons are needed to supply them, one takes a helper for one purpose and another for another; and when these partners and helpers are gathered together in one habitation the body of inhabitants is termed a State.

Then, since we have many needs and many people are required to meet them, one person gets a helper for one task and another for a different task; and when these partners and helpers come together in one place, the group of residents is called a State.

True, he said.

True, he stated.

And they exchange with one another, and one gives, and another receives, under the idea that the exchange will be for their good.

And they trade with each other; one person gives while another receives, believing that this exchange will benefit them both.

Very true.

So true.

Then, I said, let us begin and create in idea a State; and yet the true creator is necessity, who is the mother of our invention.

Then I said, let’s get started and come up with a concept for a State; but really, the true creator is necessity, which is the mother of our invention.

Of course, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

Now the first and greatest of necessities is food, which is the condition of life and existence.

Now the most important necessity is food, which is essential for life and survival.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

The second is a dwelling, and the third clothing and the like.

The second is a home, and the third is clothing and similar items.

True.

True.

And now let us see how our city will be able to supply this great demand: We may suppose that one man is a husbandman, another a builder, some one else a weaver—shall we add to them a shoemaker, or perhaps some other purveyor to our bodily wants?

And now let’s see how our city can meet this huge demand: We can imagine one person as a farmer, another as a builder, someone else as a weaver—should we include a shoemaker, or maybe someone else who supplies our basic needs?

Quite right.

Exactly right.

The barest notion of a State must include four or five men.

The simplest idea of a State must include four or five people.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And how will they proceed? Will each bring the result of his labours into a common stock?—the individual husbandman, for example, producing for four, and labouring four times as long and as much as he need in the provision of food with which he supplies others as well as himself; or will he have nothing to do with others and not be at the trouble of producing for them, but provide for himself alone a fourth of the food in a fourth of the time, and in the remaining three fourths of his time be employed in making a house or a coat or a pair of shoes, having no partnership with others, but supplying himself all his own wants?

And how will they move forward? Will everyone contribute the fruits of their labor to a shared pool? For instance, will one farmer produce food for four people, working four times as hard as necessary to feed both himself and others? Or will he choose to only take care of himself, producing just a quarter of the food in a quarter of the time, and use the other three-quarters to build a house, make a coat, or create a pair of shoes, without collaborating with anyone else and meeting all his own needs?

Adeimantus thought that he should aim at producing food only and not at producing everything.

Adeimantus believed he should focus on producing food only, rather than trying to produce everything.

Probably, I replied, that would be the better way; and when I hear you say this, I am myself reminded that we are not all alike; there are diversities of natures among us which are adapted to different occupations.

"Yeah, I think that’s probably the best approach," I replied. "And when I hear you say that, it reminds me that we're not all the same; we each have different personalities that are suited for different jobs."

Very true.

So true.

And will you have a work better done when the workman has many occupations, or when he has only one?

And will the work be done better when the worker has many jobs, or when he has just one?

When he has only one.

When he only has one.

Further, there can be no doubt that a work is spoilt when not done at the right time?

Further, there’s no doubt that a piece of work is ruined when it’s not done at the right time?

No doubt.

For sure.

For business is not disposed to wait until the doer of the business is at leisure; but the doer must follow up what he is doing, and make the business his first object.

For business doesn't wait until the person handling it is free; instead, the person must stay focused on what they are doing and prioritize the business above all else.

He must.

He has to.

And if so, we must infer that all things are produced more plentifully and easily and of a better quality when one man does one thing which is natural to him and does it at the right time, and leaves other things.

And if that's the case, we have to conclude that everything is produced more abundantly, easily, and of higher quality when one person focuses on what they're naturally suited for and does it at the right time, while letting go of other tasks.

Undoubtedly.

Absolutely.

Then more than four citizens will be required; for the husbandman will not make his own plough or mattock, or other implements of agriculture, if they are to be good for anything. Neither will the builder make his tools—and he too needs many; and in like manner the weaver and shoemaker.

Then more than four citizens will be needed; because a farmer won’t make his own plow or hoe, or any other farming tools, if they’re going to be useful. The builder won’t make his own tools either—and he needs a lot as well; and the same goes for the weaver and the shoemaker.

True.

True.

Then carpenters, and smiths, and many other artisans, will be sharers in our little State, which is already beginning to grow?

Then carpenters, blacksmiths, and many other craftsmen will be a part of our little State, which is already starting to develop?

True.

True.

Yet even if we add neatherds, shepherds, and other herdsmen, in order that our husbandmen may have oxen to plough with, and builders as well as husbandmen may have draught cattle, and curriers and weavers fleeces and hides,—still our State will not be very large.

Yet even if we include farmers, shepherds, and other livestock herders, so that our farmers can have oxen to plow with, and both builders and farmers can have draft animals, and tanners and weavers can have wool and hides—our State still won’t be very big.

That is true; yet neither will it be a very small State which contains all these.

That’s true; however, it won’t be a very small state that includes all these things.

Then, again, there is the situation of the city—to find a place where nothing need be imported is wellnigh impossible.

Then again, there's the situation in the city—finding a place where nothing needs to be imported is nearly impossible.

Impossible.

Not gonna happen.

Then there must be another class of citizens who will bring the required supply from another city?

Then there must be another group of citizens who will bring the necessary supply from another city?

There must.

There has to be.

But if the trader goes empty-handed, having nothing which they require who would supply his need, he will come back empty-handed.

But if the trader goes without anything that those who meet his needs require, he will return empty-handed.

That is certain.

That's a given.

And therefore what they produce at home must be not only enough for themselves, but such both in quantity and quality as to accommodate those from whom their wants are supplied.

And so what they make at home needs to be not just enough for themselves, but also in both quantity and quality to meet the needs of those who provide for them.

Very true.

So true.

Then more husbandmen and more artisans will be required?

Then more farmers and more workers will be needed?

They will.

They will.

Not to mention the importers and exporters, who are called merchants?

Not to mention the importers and exporters, who are known as merchants?

Yes.

Yes.

Then we shall want merchants?

Then do we need merchants?

We shall.

We will.

And if merchandise is to be carried over the sea, skilful sailors will also be needed, and in considerable numbers?

And if goods are going to be transported across the ocean, skilled sailors will also be required, and in large quantities?

Yes, in considerable numbers.

Yes, in large numbers.

Then, again, within the city, how will they exchange their productions? To secure such an exchange was, as you will remember, one of our principal objects when we formed them into a society and constituted a State.

Then, again, within the city, how will they trade their goods? Ensuring such an exchange was, as you may recall, one of our main goals when we brought them together into a society and created a State.

Clearly they will buy and sell.

Clearly, they will buy and sell.

Then they will need a market-place, and a money-token for purposes of exchange.

Then they will need a marketplace and a form of currency for exchanging goods.

Certainly.

Sure.

Suppose now that a husbandman, or an artisan, brings some production to market, and he comes at a time when there is no one to exchange with him,—is he to leave his calling and sit idle in the market-place?

Suppose now that a farmer or a craftsman brings some goods to market, and he arrives when there’s no one to trade with him—should he abandon his work and just sit around in the marketplace?

Not at all; he will find people there who, seeing the want, undertake the office of salesmen. In well-ordered states they are commonly those who are the weakest in bodily strength, and therefore of little use for any other purpose; their duty is to be in the market, and to give money in exchange for goods to those who desire to sell and to take money from those who desire to buy.

Not at all; he will find people there who, seeing the need, take on the role of salespeople. In well-run societies, they are usually those who are physically weaker and therefore not much use for anything else; their job is to be in the market and to give money in exchange for goods to those who want to sell, and to take money from those who want to buy.

This want, then, creates a class of retail-traders in our State. Is not ‘retailer’ the term which is applied to those who sit in the market-place engaged in buying and selling, while those who wander from one city to another are called merchants?

This desire, then, creates a group of retail traders in our state. Isn't 'retailer' the term used for those who are in the market buying and selling, while those who travel from one city to another are called merchants?

Yes, he said.

Yeah, he said.

And there is another class of servants, who are intellectually hardly on the level of companionship; still they have plenty of bodily strength for labour, which accordingly they sell, and are called, if I do not mistake, hirelings, hire being the name which is given to the price of their labour.

And there’s another group of workers who aren’t really on the same intellectual level as companions; however, they have a lot of physical strength for manual labor, which they sell, and are typically called hirelings, since the payment for their work is known as hire.

True.

True.

Then hirelings will help to make up our population?

Then hired workers will help make up our population?

Yes.

Yes.

And now, Adeimantus, is our State matured and perfected?

And now, Adeimantus, is our society fully developed and perfected?

I think so.

I believe so.

Where, then, is justice, and where is injustice, and in what part of the State did they spring up?

Where is justice, and where is injustice, and where in the State did they originate?

Probably in the dealings of these citizens with one another. I cannot imagine that they are more likely to be found any where else.

Probably in the interactions of these citizens with each other. I can't imagine they would be found more often anywhere else.

I dare say that you are right in your suggestion, I said; we had better think the matter out, and not shrink from the enquiry.

I have to agree with you on that suggestion, I said; we should really think this through and not shy away from the investigation.

Let us then consider, first of all, what will be their way of life, now that we have thus established them. Will they not produce corn, and wine, and clothes, and shoes, and build houses for themselves? And when they are housed, they will work, in summer, commonly, stripped and barefoot, but in winter substantially clothed and shod. They will feed on barley-meal and flour of wheat, baking and kneading them, making noble cakes and loaves; these they will serve up on a mat of reeds or on clean leaves, themselves reclining the while upon beds strewn with yew or myrtle. And they and their children will feast, drinking of the wine which they have made, wearing garlands on their heads, and hymning the praises of the gods, in happy converse with one another. And they will take care that their families do not exceed their means; having an eye to poverty or war.

Let’s think about what their lifestyle will look like now that we have set them up. Won't they grow grain, make wine, create clothing, and build homes for themselves? Once they have shelter, they’ll work, usually in summer without shirts and shoes, but in winter adequately dressed and shod. They’ll eat barley and wheat flour, baking and kneading them to make fine cakes and loaves; they'll serve these on a mat made of reeds or on clean leaves, while they relax on beds covered with yew or myrtle. They and their children will enjoy feasts, drinking the wine they made, wearing garlands on their heads, and singing praises to the gods, happily chatting with one another. They'll also ensure that their families live within their means, keeping in mind the potential for poverty or war.

But, said Glaucon, interposing, you have not given them a relish to their meal.

But, Glaucon interjected, you haven't made their meal appealing.

True, I replied, I had forgotten; of course they must have a relish—salt, and olives, and cheese, and they will boil roots and herbs such as country people prepare; for a dessert we shall give them figs, and peas, and beans; and they will roast myrtle-berries and acorns at the fire, drinking in moderation. And with such a diet they may be expected to live in peace and health to a good old age, and bequeath a similar life to their children after them.

Sure, I replied, I had forgotten; they must have some flavor—salt, olives, and cheese, and they will cook roots and herbs like the locals do; for dessert we’ll give them figs, peas, and beans; and they will roast myrtle berries and acorns over the fire, drinking in moderation. With a diet like that, they can be expected to live peacefully and healthily into old age and pass on a similar life to their children.

Yes, Socrates, he said, and if you were providing for a city of pigs, how else would you feed the beasts?

Yes, Socrates, he said, and if you were taking care of a city of pigs, how else would you feed the animals?

But what would you have, Glaucon? I replied.

But what do you want, Glaucon? I replied.

Why, he said, you should give them the ordinary conveniences of life. People who are to be comfortable are accustomed to lie on sofas, and dine off tables, and they should have sauces and sweets in the modern style.

Why, he said, you should provide them with the basic comforts of life. People who are comfortable are used to lounging on sofas and eating at tables, and they should have sauces and desserts in the modern way.

Yes, I said, now I understand: the question which you would have me consider is, not only how a State, but how a luxurious State is created; and possibly there is no harm in this, for in such a State we shall be more likely to see how justice and injustice originate. In my opinion the true and healthy constitution of the State is the one which I have described. But if you wish also to see a State at fever-heat, I have no objection. For I suspect that many will not be satisfied with the simpler way of life. They will be for adding sofas, and tables, and other furniture; also dainties, and perfumes, and incense, and courtesans, and cakes, all these not of one sort only, but in every variety; we must go beyond the necessaries of which I was at first speaking, such as houses, and clothes, and shoes: the arts of the painter and the embroiderer will have to be set in motion, and gold and ivory and all sorts of materials must be procured.

Yeah, I get it now: the question you want me to think about is not just how a State is formed, but how a luxurious State comes into being. And maybe there's nothing wrong with this because in such a State, we'll likely get a clearer view of how justice and injustice come about. I believe the ideal and healthy structure of the State is the one I've outlined. But if you also want to explore a State that's all about excess, I'm fine with that. I suspect many people won't be happy with a simpler way of living. They'll want to add sofas, tables, and other furniture; they'll want delicacies, perfumes, incense, courtesans, and cakes—not just one type, but in every variety. We need to go beyond the basics I talked about at first, like houses, clothes, and shoes: we’ll have to engage the skills of painters and embroiderers, and gather gold, ivory, and all kinds of materials.

True, he said.

True, he said.

Then we must enlarge our borders; for the original healthy State is no longer sufficient. Now will the city have to fill and swell with a multitude of callings which are not required by any natural want; such as the whole tribe of hunters and actors, of whom one large class have to do with forms and colours; another will be the votaries of music—poets and their attendant train of rhapsodists, players, dancers, contractors; also makers of divers kinds of articles, including women’s dresses. And we shall want more servants. Will not tutors be also in request, and nurses wet and dry, tirewomen and barbers, as well as confectioners and cooks; and swineherds, too, who were not needed and therefore had no place in the former edition of our State, but are needed now? They must not be forgotten: and there will be animals of many other kinds, if people eat them.

Then we need to expand our borders because the original, healthy state is no longer enough. Now the city will have to accommodate a large number of professions that aren’t driven by any natural need, like all the hunters and entertainers. One group will focus on appearance and design, while another will be the music lovers—poets and their entourage of performers, dancers, and various suppliers. We’ll also need more service workers. Tutors will definitely be in demand, along with wet and dry nurses, hairdressers, barbers, bakers, and chefs; not to mention swineherds, who weren’t necessary before but are now required. We shouldn’t overlook them, and there will be many other animals if people choose to eat them.

Certainly.

Sure.

And living in this way we shall have much greater need of physicians than before?

And living like this, we'll need doctors a lot more than we did before?

Much greater.

Much larger.

And the country which was enough to support the original inhabitants will be too small now, and not enough?

And the land that was sufficient to support the original inhabitants will now be too small and inadequate?

Quite true.

So true.

Then a slice of our neighbours’ land will be wanted by us for pasture and tillage, and they will want a slice of ours, if, like ourselves, they exceed the limit of necessity, and give themselves up to the unlimited accumulation of wealth?

Then we'll want a piece of our neighbors’ land for grazing and farming, and they'll want a piece of ours, if they, like us, go beyond what they need and get caught up in the endless pursuit of wealth?

That, Socrates, will be inevitable.

That, Socrates, will be unavoidable.

And so we shall go to war, Glaucon. Shall we not?

And so we will go to war, Glaucon. Right?

Most certainly, he replied.

Absolutely, he replied.

Then without determining as yet whether war does good or harm, thus much we may affirm, that now we have discovered war to be derived from causes which are also the causes of almost all the evils in States, private as well as public.

Then, without deciding whether war is beneficial or harmful, we can say this much: we have now found that war arises from the same reasons that cause nearly all the problems in societies, both personal and public.

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

And our State must once more enlarge; and this time the enlargement will be nothing short of a whole army, which will have to go out and fight with the invaders for all that we have, as well as for the things and persons whom we were describing above.

And our state needs to expand again; this time, the expansion will involve a whole army that will have to go out and fight against the invaders for everything we have, as well as for the people and things we mentioned earlier.

Why? he said; are they not capable of defending themselves?

Why? he asked; can't they defend themselves?

No, I said; not if we were right in the principle which was acknowledged by all of us when we were framing the State: the principle, as you will remember, was that one man cannot practise many arts with success.

No, I said; not if we were right about the principle that we all agreed on when we were creating the State: the principle, as you’ll recall, was that one person cannot successfully master many skills.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

But is not war an art?

But isn't war a form of art?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And an art requiring as much attention as shoemaking?

And an art that needs as much attention as shoemaking?

Quite true.

So true.

And the shoemaker was not allowed by us to be a husbandman, or a weaver, or a builder—in order that we might have our shoes well made; but to him and to every other worker was assigned one work for which he was by nature fitted, and at that he was to continue working all his life long and at no other; he was not to let opportunities slip, and then he would become a good workman. Now nothing can be more important than that the work of a soldier should be well done. But is war an art so easily acquired that a man may be a warrior who is also a husbandman, or shoemaker, or other artisan; although no one in the world would be a good dice or draught player who merely took up the game as a recreation, and had not from his earliest years devoted himself to this and nothing else? No tools will make a man a skilled workman, or master of defence, nor be of any use to him who has not learned how to handle them, and has never bestowed any attention upon them. How then will he who takes up a shield or other implement of war become a good fighter all in a day, whether with heavy-armed or any other kind of troops?

And we didn’t allow the shoemaker to be a farmer, weaver, or builder—so that we could have well-made shoes. Each worker was assigned a job that suited their natural talents, and they were meant to stick to that job for their whole lives, without letting opportunities pass by, so they could become skilled at it. Now, it’s crucial for a soldier’s work to be done well. But is war a skill so easily learned that someone can be a warrior while also being a farmer, shoemaker, or any other type of craftsman? Just like no one can be a good dice or checkers player if they only play for fun and haven’t dedicated their time to it from a young age. No tools will turn someone into a skilled worker or a master of defense unless they've learned how to use them and paid attention to them. So how can someone who picks up a shield or any other weapon become a good fighter overnight, whether they're in heavy armor or with any other type of troops?

Yes, he said, the tools which would teach men their own use would be beyond price.

Yes, he said, the tools that would help people understand their own worth would be priceless.

And the higher the duties of the guardian, I said, the more time, and skill, and art, and application will be needed by him?

And the greater the responsibilities of the guardian, I said, the more time, skill, craftsmanship, and effort he will need?

No doubt, he replied.

Of course, he replied.

Will he not also require natural aptitude for his calling?

Will he not also need a natural talent for his job?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then it will be our duty to select, if we can, natures which are fitted for the task of guarding the city?

Then it will be our responsibility to choose, if possible, individuals who are suited for the job of protecting the city?

It will.

It definitely will.

And the selection will be no easy matter, I said; but we must be brave and do our best.

And choosing won't be easy, I said; but we have to be courageous and give it our all.

We must.

We have to.

Is not the noble youth very like a well-bred dog in respect of guarding and watching?

Isn't the noble youth a lot like a well-trained dog when it comes to guarding and watching?

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean that both of them ought to be quick to see, and swift to overtake the enemy when they see him; and strong too if, when they have caught him, they have to fight with him.

I mean that both of them should be quick to notice and fast to catch up to the enemy when they spot him, and they should be strong too if, when they catch him, they have to fight him.

All these qualities, he replied, will certainly be required by them.

All these qualities, he replied, will definitely be needed by them.

Well, and your guardian must be brave if he is to fight well?

Well, your guardian has to be brave if he wants to fight well?

Certainly.

Sure.

And is he likely to be brave who has no spirit, whether horse or dog or any other animal? Have you never observed how invincible and unconquerable is spirit and how the presence of it makes the soul of any creature to be absolutely fearless and indomitable?

And is he really going to be brave if he lacks spirit, whether it's a horse, a dog, or any other animal? Have you not noticed how unstoppable and unconquerable spirit can be, and how having it makes any creature's soul completely fearless and resilient?

I have.

I have.

Then now we have a clear notion of the bodily qualities which are required in the guardian.

Then we now have a clear understanding of the physical qualities that are needed in the guardian.

True.

True.

And also of the mental ones; his soul is to be full of spirit?

And also of the mental ones; is his soul supposed to be full of spirit?

Yes.

Yes.

But are not these spirited natures apt to be savage with one another, and with everybody else?

But don't these fiery personalities tend to be aggressive towards each other and everyone else?

A difficulty by no means easy to overcome, he replied.

That's definitely not easy to get past, he replied.

Whereas, I said, they ought to be dangerous to their enemies, and gentle to their friends; if not, they will destroy themselves without waiting for their enemies to destroy them.

Whereas, I said, they should be a threat to their enemies and kind to their friends; otherwise, they will bring about their own downfall without needing their enemies to do it.

True, he said.

True, he said.

What is to be done then? I said; how shall we find a gentle nature which has also a great spirit, for the one is the contradiction of the other?

What should we do then? I asked; how can we find a kind nature that also has a strong spirit, since one contradicts the other?

True.

True.

He will not be a good guardian who is wanting in either of these two qualities; and yet the combination of them appears to be impossible; and hence we must infer that to be a good guardian is impossible.

A good guardian can't lack either of these two qualities; however, it seems like having both is impossible. Therefore, we can conclude that being a good guardian is impossible.

I am afraid that what you say is true, he replied.

"I'm afraid what you're saying is true," he replied.

Here feeling perplexed I began to think over what had preceded.—My friend, I said, no wonder that we are in a perplexity; for we have lost sight of the image which we had before us.

Here, feeling confused, I started to reflect on what had happened before. "My friend," I said, "it's no surprise that we're in a state of confusion; we've lost track of the image we had in front of us."

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

I mean to say that there do exist natures gifted with those opposite qualities.

I just want to point out that there are indeed people with those contrasting traits.

And where do you find them?

And where do you find them?

Many animals, I replied, furnish examples of them; our friend the dog is a very good one: you know that well-bred dogs are perfectly gentle to their familiars and acquaintances, and the reverse to strangers.

Many animals, I replied, provide examples of them; our friend the dog is a great one: you know that well-bred dogs are very gentle with their family and friends, but not so much with strangers.

Yes, I know.

Yeah, I know.

Then there is nothing impossible or out of the order of nature in our finding a guardian who has a similar combination of qualities?

Then it's not impossible or unnatural for us to find a guardian who has a similar mix of qualities?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Would not he who is fitted to be a guardian, besides the spirited nature, need to have the qualities of a philosopher?

Wouldn't someone suited to be a guardian, in addition to having a brave nature, also need to have the qualities of a philosopher?

I do not apprehend your meaning.

I don’t understand what you mean.

The trait of which I am speaking, I replied, may be also seen in the dog, and is remarkable in the animal.

The trait I'm talking about, I replied, can also be seen in dogs and is quite striking in animals.

What trait?

What quality?

Why, a dog, whenever he sees a stranger, is angry; when an acquaintance, he welcomes him, although the one has never done him any harm, nor the other any good. Did this never strike you as curious?

Why is it that a dog gets angry whenever he sees a stranger, but welcomes an acquaintance, even though one has never done him any harm and the other no good? Doesn't that seem curious to you?

The matter never struck me before; but I quite recognise the truth of your remark.

I never thought about it like that before, but I totally see the truth in what you’re saying.

And surely this instinct of the dog is very charming;—your dog is a true philosopher.

And definitely, this instinct of the dog is really charming; your dog is a true philosopher.

Why?

Why?

Why, because he distinguishes the face of a friend and of an enemy only by the criterion of knowing and not knowing. And must not an animal be a lover of learning who determines what he likes and dislikes by the test of knowledge and ignorance?

Why? Because he tells the difference between a friend and an enemy solely based on what he knows and doesn’t know. Isn’t it true that an animal must be a lover of learning if it decides what it likes and dislikes based on knowledge and ignorance?

Most assuredly.

Definitely.

And is not the love of learning the love of wisdom, which is philosophy?

Isn't the love of learning the same as the love of wisdom, which is philosophy?

They are the same, he replied.

They're the same, he replied.

And may we not say confidently of man also, that he who is likely to be gentle to his friends and acquaintances, must by nature be a lover of wisdom and knowledge?

And can we not confidently say about a person that someone who is likely to be kind to their friends and acquaintances must naturally be a lover of wisdom and knowledge?

That we may safely affirm.

That we can safely say.

Then he who is to be a really good and noble guardian of the State will require to unite in himself philosophy and spirit and swiftness and strength?

Then, someone who wants to be a truly good and noble guardian of the State will need to combine philosophy, spirit, speed, and strength in themselves?

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

Then we have found the desired natures; and now that we have found them, how are they to be reared and educated? Is not this an enquiry which may be expected to throw light on the greater enquiry which is our final end—How do justice and injustice grow up in States? for we do not want either to omit what is to the point or to draw out the argument to an inconvenient length.

Then we have identified the desired qualities, and now that we've found them, how should they be nurtured and educated? Isn't this a question that could help illuminate the bigger question we're ultimately trying to answer—How do justice and injustice develop in societies? We want to make sure not to skip over what's relevant or to extend the discussion unnecessarily.

Adeimantus thought that the enquiry would be of great service to us.

Adeimantus believed that the investigation would be very helpful to us.

Then, I said, my dear friend, the task must not be given up, even if somewhat long.

Then, I said, my dear friend, we must not give up on this task, even if it takes a while.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Come then, and let us pass a leisure hour in story-telling, and our story shall be the education of our heroes.

Come on, let's spend some free time telling stories, and our story will be about the education of our heroes.

By all means.

Absolutely.

And what shall be their education? Can we find a better than the traditional sort?—and this has two divisions, gymnastic for the body, and music for the soul.

And what should their education be? Can we find something better than the traditional kind?—which has two parts: physical training for the body and music for the soul.

True.

True.

Shall we begin education with music, and go on to gymnastic afterwards?

Shall we start with music in our education, and then move on to gymnastic activities afterward?

By all means.

Of course.

And when you speak of music, do you include literature or not?

And when you talk about music, do you also include literature or not?

I do.

I do.

And literature may be either true or false?

And can literature be either true or false?

Yes.

Yes.

And the young should be trained in both kinds, and we begin with the false?

And young people should be educated in both aspects, and do we start with the false?

I do not understand your meaning, he said.

I don’t get what you mean, he said.

You know, I said, that we begin by telling children stories which, though not wholly destitute of truth, are in the main fictitious; and these stories are told them when they are not of an age to learn gymnastics.

You know, I said, that we start by telling kids stories that, while not completely lacking in truth, are mostly made up; and these stories are shared with them when they’re not old enough to learn gymnastics.

Very true.

So true.

That was my meaning when I said that we must teach music before gymnastics.

That’s what I meant when I said we should teach music before gym class.

Quite right, he said.

Absolutely, he said.

You know also that the beginning is the most important part of any work, especially in the case of a young and tender thing; for that is the time at which the character is being formed and the desired impression is more readily taken.

You also know that the beginning is the most important part of any work, especially when it involves something young and delicate; this is when the character is being shaped and the intended impression is more easily absorbed.

Quite true.

Very true.

And shall we just carelessly allow children to hear any casual tales which may be devised by casual persons, and to receive into their minds ideas for the most part the very opposite of those which we should wish them to have when they are grown up?

And should we really just let kids hear any random stories made up by anyone, filling their minds with ideas that are mostly the complete opposite of what we want them to think when they're older?

We cannot.

We can't.

Then the first thing will be to establish a censorship of the writers of fiction, and let the censors receive any tale of fiction which is good, and reject the bad; and we will desire mothers and nurses to tell their children the authorised ones only. Let them fashion the mind with such tales, even more fondly than they mould the body with their hands; but most of those which are now in use must be discarded.

Then the first step will be to set up a system to monitor fiction writers, allowing censors to accept any good stories and reject the bad ones. We will encourage mothers and caregivers to share only the approved stories with their children. Let them shape their minds with these tales, even more lovingly than they shape their bodies with their hands; however, most of the stories currently in circulation should be eliminated.

Of what tales are you speaking? he said.

Of what stories are you talking about? he said.

You may find a model of the lesser in the greater, I said; for they are necessarily of the same type, and there is the same spirit in both of them.

You might see a smaller version in the larger one, I said; because they are both essentially the same, and they share the same essence.

Very likely, he replied; but I do not as yet know what you would term the greater.

Very likely, he replied; but I still don't know what you would consider the greater.

Those, I said, which are narrated by Homer and Hesiod, and the rest of the poets, who have ever been the great story-tellers of mankind.

Those, I said, that are told by Homer and Hesiod, along with the other poets, who have always been the great storytellers of humanity.

But which stories do you mean, he said; and what fault do you find with them?

But which stories are you talking about, he asked; and what issues do you have with them?

A fault which is most serious, I said; the fault of telling a lie, and, what is more, a bad lie.

A serious mistake, I said; the mistake of telling a lie, and, what’s worse, a bad lie.

But when is this fault committed?

But when does this mistake happen?

Whenever an erroneous representation is made of the nature of gods and heroes,—as when a painter paints a portrait not having the shadow of a likeness to the original.

Whenever an inaccurate depiction is made of the nature of gods and heroes—like when a painter creates a portrait that doesn't look at all like the original.

Yes, he said, that sort of thing is certainly very blameable; but what are the stories which you mean?

Yes, he said, that kind of thing is definitely blameworthy; but what stories are you referring to?

First of all, I said, there was that greatest of all lies in high places, which the poet told about Uranus, and which was a bad lie too,—I mean what Hesiod says that Uranus did, and how Cronus retaliated on him. The doings of Cronus, and the sufferings which in turn his son inflicted upon him, even if they were true, ought certainly not to be lightly told to young and thoughtless persons; if possible, they had better be buried in silence. But if there is an absolute necessity for their mention, a chosen few might hear them in a mystery, and they should sacrifice not a common (Eleusinian) pig, but some huge and unprocurable victim; and then the number of the hearers will be very few indeed.

First of all, I said, there was that greatest of all lies in high places, which the poet told about Uranus, and which was a bad lie too—I mean what Hesiod says Uranus did, and how Cronus got back at him. The things Cronus did, and the suffering his son later inflicted on him, even if they were true, definitely shouldn't be shared lightly with young and careless people; if possible, they should be kept silent. But if it's absolutely necessary to mention them, only a select few should hear them in a secretive way, and they should offer a sacrifice not of a common (Eleusinian) pig, but of some great and hard-to-find victim; and then the number of listeners will be very small indeed.

Why, yes, said he, those stories are extremely objectionable.

Sure, he said, those stories are really problematic.

Yes, Adeimantus, they are stories not to be repeated in our State; the young man should not be told that in committing the worst of crimes he is far from doing anything outrageous; and that even if he chastises his father when he does wrong, in whatever manner, he will only be following the example of the first and greatest among the gods.

Yes, Adeimantus, these are stories that shouldn't be repeated in our State; the young man shouldn't be told that committing the worst crimes is nothing extraordinary; and that even if he punishes his father when he does something wrong, in any way, he will just be imitating the example of the first and greatest of the gods.

I entirely agree with you, he said; in my opinion those stories are quite unfit to be repeated.

"I completely agree with you," he said. "In my view, those stories are definitely not suitable to be shared."

Neither, if we mean our future guardians to regard the habit of quarrelling among themselves as of all things the basest, should any word be said to them of the wars in heaven, and of the plots and fightings of the gods against one another, for they are not true. No, we shall never mention the battles of the giants, or let them be embroidered on garments; and we shall be silent about the innumerable other quarrels of gods and heroes with their friends and relatives. If they would only believe us we would tell them that quarrelling is unholy, and that never up to this time has there been any quarrel between citizens; this is what old men and old women should begin by telling children; and when they grow up, the poets also should be told to compose for them in a similar spirit. But the narrative of Hephaestus binding Here his mother, or how on another occasion Zeus sent him flying for taking her part when she was being beaten, and all the battles of the gods in Homer—these tales must not be admitted into our State, whether they are supposed to have an allegorical meaning or not. For a young person cannot judge what is allegorical and what is literal; anything that he receives into his mind at that age is likely to become indelible and unalterable; and therefore it is most important that the tales which the young first hear should be models of virtuous thoughts.

If we want our future guardians to see the habit of fighting among themselves as the lowest of all things, we shouldn’t mention the wars in heaven or the schemes and battles of the gods against each other, because they aren’t true. No, we should never bring up the battles of the giants or let them be depicted on clothes; and we should stay quiet about the countless other disputes of the gods and heroes with their friends and family. If only they would believe us, we would tell them that fighting is wrong, and that up until now, there has never been a quarrel among citizens; this is what elderly men and women should start telling children. When the children grow up, poets should also be encouraged to write for them in the same positive spirit. However, stories like Hephaestus binding his mother Hera, or how Zeus threw him out for defending her when she was being abused, and all the battles of the gods in Homer—none of these stories should be allowed in our State, no matter if they’re thought to have a deeper meaning or not. A young person can’t differentiate between what’s allegorical and what’s literal; anything they take in at that age is likely to stick with them permanently; that’s why it’s crucial that the stories they first hear are examples of virtuous ideas.

There you are right, he replied; but if any one asks where are such models to be found and of what tales are you speaking—how shall we answer him?

You’re right, he said; but if someone asks where to find such models and what stories you’re talking about—how do we reply?

I said to him, You and I, Adeimantus, at this moment are not poets, but founders of a State: now the founders of a State ought to know the general forms in which poets should cast their tales, and the limits which must be observed by them, but to make the tales is not their business.

I said to him, "You and I, Adeimantus, right now are not poets, but founders of a State. Founders of a State should understand the general structures that poets should use for their stories and the boundaries they need to follow, but creating those stories isn't our role."

Very true, he said; but what are these forms of theology which you mean?

That's true, he said; but what do you mean by these types of theology?

Something of this kind, I replied:—God is always to be represented as he truly is, whatever be the sort of poetry, epic, lyric or tragic, in which the representation is given.

Something like this, I replied:—God should always be depicted as He really is, regardless of whether it’s in epic, lyrical, or tragic poetry.

Right.

Okay.

And is he not truly good? and must he not be represented as such?

And isn't he really good? And shouldn't he be shown that way?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And no good thing is hurtful?

Is anything good actually harmful?

No, indeed.

No way.

And that which is not hurtful hurts not?

And what doesn't harm doesn't hurt?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And that which hurts not does no evil?

And what doesn't hurt does no harm?

No.

No.

And can that which does no evil be a cause of evil?

And can something that causes no harm be the source of harm?

Impossible.

Impossible.

And the good is advantageous?

Is the good beneficial?

Yes.

Yes.

And therefore the cause of well-being?

And so what is the reason for well-being?

Yes.

Yes.

It follows therefore that the good is not the cause of all things, but of the good only?

It follows, then, that the good is not the cause of everything, but only of the good?

Assuredly.

For sure.

Then God, if he be good, is not the author of all things, as the many assert, but he is the cause of a few things only, and not of most things that occur to men. For few are the goods of human life, and many are the evils, and the good is to be attributed to God alone; of the evils the causes are to be sought elsewhere, and not in him.

Then God, if he is good, is not the creator of everything, as many claim, but rather he is the cause of only a few things, not most of what happens to people. For there are few goods in human life and many evils; the good should be attributed only to God, while the causes of the evils should be looked for elsewhere, not in him.

That appears to me to be most true, he said.

That seems to be really true to me, he said.

Then we must not listen to Homer or to any other poet who is guilty of the folly of saying that two casks

Then we must not listen to Homer or to any other poet who is guilty of the foolishness of saying that two casks

‘Lie at the threshold of Zeus, full of lots, one of good, the other of evil lots,’

‘Lie at the doorstep of Zeus, filled with many lots, one of good, the other of evil lots,’

and that he to whom Zeus gives a mixture of the two

and that the person to whom Zeus gives a blend of the two

‘Sometimes meets with evil fortune, at other times with good;’

‘Sometimes faces bad luck, other times good luck;’

but that he to whom is given the cup of unmingled ill,

but that he to whom the cup of pure misfortune is given,

‘Him wild hunger drives o’er the beauteous earth.’

‘His wild hunger drives him across the beautiful earth.’

And again—

And again—

‘Zeus, who is the dispenser of good and evil to us.’

‘Zeus, who gives us both good and bad.’

And if any one asserts that the violation of oaths and treaties, which was really the work of Pandarus, was brought about by Athene and Zeus, or that the strife and contention of the gods was instigated by Themis and Zeus, he shall not have our approval; neither will we allow our young men to hear the words of Aeschylus, that

And if anyone claims that the breaking of oaths and treaties, which was actually caused by Pandarus, was done by Athene and Zeus, or that the gods' conflicts were started by Themis and Zeus, we won’t support that; nor will we permit our young men to listen to the words of Aeschylus, that

‘God plants guilt among men when he desires utterly to destroy a house.’

‘God instills guilt in people when He wants to completely bring down a household.’

And if a poet writes of the sufferings of Niobe—the subject of the tragedy in which these iambic verses occur—or of the house of Pelops, or of the Trojan war or on any similar theme, either we must not permit him to say that these are the works of God, or if they are of God, he must devise some explanation of them such as we are seeking; he must say that God did what was just and right, and they were the better for being punished; but that those who are punished are miserable, and that God is the author of their misery—the poet is not to be permitted to say; though he may say that the wicked are miserable because they require to be punished, and are benefited by receiving punishment from God; but that God being good is the author of evil to any one is to be strenuously denied, and not to be said or sung or heard in verse or prose by any one whether old or young in any well-ordered commonwealth. Such a fiction is suicidal, ruinous, impious.

And if a poet writes about the sufferings of Niobe—the topic of the tragedy in which these iambic verses appear—or about the House of Pelops, the Trojan War, or any similar theme, we must either not allow him to claim that these are the works of God, or if they are indeed from God, he must provide an explanation, like the one we’re looking for; he must assert that God did what was just and right, and that those punished were better for it; but he cannot say that those who are punished are miserable, and that God is the cause of their misery—the poet is not allowed to say this. However, he may say that the wicked are miserable because they deserve to be punished, and that punishing them is beneficial for them; but the idea that a good God is the source of evil for anyone must be firmly rejected and should not be expressed or sung or heard in verse or prose by anyone, young or old, in any well-ordered society. Such a notion is destructive, harmful, and impious.

I agree with you, he replied, and am ready to give my assent to the law.

"I agree with you," he said, "and I'm ready to support the law."

Let this then be one of our rules and principles concerning the gods, to which our poets and reciters will be expected to conform,—that God is not the author of all things, but of good only.

Let this be one of our rules and principles about the gods, which our poets and storytellers should follow—that God is not the creator of everything, but only of good things.

That will do, he said.

That works, he said.

And what do you think of a second principle? Shall I ask you whether God is a magician, and of a nature to appear insidiously now in one shape, and now in another—sometimes himself changing and passing into many forms, sometimes deceiving us with the semblance of such transformations; or is he one and the same immutably fixed in his own proper image?

And what do you think about a second principle? Should I ask you if God is like a magician, appearing in different forms—sometimes changing himself into many shapes, and other times tricking us with illusions of such transformations; or is he the same, unchanging and fixed in his own true image?

I cannot answer you, he said, without more thought.

I can't answer you, he said, without thinking more about it.

Well, I said; but if we suppose a change in anything, that change must be effected either by the thing itself, or by some other thing?

Well, I said; but if we assume a change in anything, that change has to be brought about either by the thing itself or by something else?

Most certainly.

Definitely.

And things which are at their best are also least liable to be altered or discomposed; for example, when healthiest and strongest, the human frame is least liable to be affected by meats and drinks, and the plant which is in the fullest vigour also suffers least from winds or the heat of the sun or any similar causes.

And things that are at their best are also the least likely to be changed or disturbed; for instance, when it's healthiest and strongest, the human body is least affected by food and drink, and a plant that is thriving the most suffers the least from wind, heat from the sun, or any similar factors.

Of course.

Of course.

And will not the bravest and wisest soul be least confused or deranged by any external influence?

And won't the bravest and wisest person be the least confused or affected by any outside influence?

True.

True.

And the same principle, as I should suppose, applies to all composite things—furniture, houses, garments: when good and well made, they are least altered by time and circumstances.

And I think the same idea applies to all combined things—furniture, houses, clothes: when they're well-made and of good quality, they are least affected by time and circumstances.

Very true.

So true.

Then everything which is good, whether made by art or nature, or both, is least liable to suffer change from without?

Then everything that is good, whether created by art or nature, or both, is the least likely to be affected by external changes?

True.

True.

But surely God and the things of God are in every way perfect?

But surely God and the matters of God are perfect in every way?

Of course they are.

Of course they are.

Then he can hardly be compelled by external influence to take many shapes?

Then he can barely be pressured by outside forces to assume different forms?

He cannot.

He can't.

But may he not change and transform himself?

But can he not change and reinvent himself?

Clearly, he said, that must be the case if he is changed at all.

Clearly, he said, that has to be true if he has changed at all.

And will he then change himself for the better and fairer, or for the worse and more unsightly?

And will he then change himself for the better and more attractive, or for the worse and less appealing?

If he change at all he can only change for the worse, for we cannot suppose him to be deficient either in virtue or beauty.

If he changes at all, it can only be for the worse, since we can't assume he lacks either virtue or beauty.

Very true, Adeimantus; but then, would any one, whether God or man, desire to make himself worse?

Very true, Adeimantus; but then, would anyone, whether God or man, want to make themselves worse?

Impossible.

No way.

Then it is impossible that God should ever be willing to change; being, as is supposed, the fairest and best that is conceivable, every God remains absolutely and for ever in his own form.

Then it’s impossible for God to ever want to change; since, as is believed, He is the most perfect and best being imaginable, every God remains completely and eternally in His own form.

That necessarily follows, he said, in my judgment.

That naturally follows, he said, in my opinion.

Then, I said, my dear friend, let none of the poets tell us that

Then I said, my dear friend, let none of the poets tell us that

‘The gods, taking the disguise of strangers from other lands, walk up and down cities in all sorts of forms;’

‘The gods, disguised as travelers from distant places, roam around cities in all kinds of forms;’

and let no one slander Proteus and Thetis, neither let any one, either in tragedy or in any other kind of poetry, introduce Here disguised in the likeness of a priestess asking an alms

and let no one speak ill of Proteus and Thetis, nor let anyone, whether in tragedy or any other form of poetry, bring in Hera disguised as a priestess asking for alms

‘For the life-giving daughters of Inachus the river of Argos;’

‘For the life-giving daughters of Inachus, the river of Argos;’

—let us have no more lies of that sort. Neither must we have mothers under the influence of the poets scaring their children with a bad version of these myths—telling how certain gods, as they say, ‘Go about by night in the likeness of so many strangers and in divers forms;’ but let them take heed lest they make cowards of their children, and at the same time speak blasphemy against the gods.

—let's avoid any more lies like that. We shouldn’t have mothers influenced by poets scaring their kids with a twisted version of these myths—saying how certain gods, as they claim, ‘roam around at night in the guise of various strangers and in different forms;’ but they should be careful not to make cowards of their children, while also speaking disrespectfully about the gods.

Heaven forbid, he said.

God forbid, he said.

But although the gods are themselves unchangeable, still by witchcraft and deception they may make us think that they appear in various forms?

But even though the gods themselves are unchanging, they can still use magic and deception to make us believe that they appear in different forms.

Perhaps, he replied.

Maybe, he replied.

Well, but can you imagine that God will be willing to lie, whether in word or deed, or to put forth a phantom of himself?

Well, can you imagine that God would be willing to lie, either in words or actions, or to present a false version of himself?

I cannot say, he replied.

I can't say, he replied.

Do you not know, I said, that the true lie, if such an expression may be allowed, is hated of gods and men?

Don’t you know, I said, that the real lie, if that’s even a thing, is hated by both gods and people?

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

I mean that no one is willingly deceived in that which is the truest and highest part of himself, or about the truest and highest matters; there, above all, he is most afraid of a lie having possession of him.

I mean that no one chooses to be misled about the truest and highest part of themselves, or regarding the most genuine and important matters; there, above all, they fear being controlled by a lie.

Still, he said, I do not comprehend you.

Still, he said, I don't understand you.

The reason is, I replied, that you attribute some profound meaning to my words; but I am only saying that deception, or being deceived or uninformed about the highest realities in the highest part of themselves, which is the soul, and in that part of them to have and to hold the lie, is what mankind least like;—that, I say, is what they utterly detest.

The reason is, I replied, that you think there's some deep meaning to my words; but I’m just saying that being deceived or not knowing the most important truths about the deepest part of ourselves, which is the soul, and in that part to accept the lie, is what humanity dislikes the most;—that, I say, is what they completely hate.

There is nothing more hateful to them.

They hate nothing more than that.

And, as I was just now remarking, this ignorance in the soul of him who is deceived may be called the true lie; for the lie in words is only a kind of imitation and shadowy image of a previous affection of the soul, not pure unadulterated falsehood. Am I not right?

And, as I was just saying, this ignorance in the soul of someone who is deceived can be called the true lie; because the lie in words is just a kind of imitation and a shadowy image of a previous feeling in the soul, not a completely pure falsehood. Am I wrong?

Perfectly right.

Absolutely correct.

The true lie is hated not only by the gods, but also by men?

The real lie is disliked not just by the gods, but by people too?

Yes.

Yes.

Whereas the lie in words is in certain cases useful and not hateful; in dealing with enemies—that would be an instance; or again, when those whom we call our friends in a fit of madness or illusion are going to do some harm, then it is useful and is a sort of medicine or preventive; also in the tales of mythology, of which we were just now speaking—because we do not know the truth about ancient times, we make falsehood as much like truth as we can, and so turn it to account.

Where the lie in words can sometimes be useful and not malicious; for example, in dealing with enemies; or when we have friends who, in a moment of madness or delusion, might cause harm, then it becomes useful and acts like a kind of medicine or preventive measure; also in the stories of mythology, which we were just discussing—since we don’t know the truth about ancient times, we shape falsehoods to resemble truth as closely as possible and use them to our advantage.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

But can any of these reasons apply to God? Can we suppose that he is ignorant of antiquity, and therefore has recourse to invention?

But can any of these reasons apply to God? Can we assume that He is unaware of history and therefore resorts to invention?

That would be ridiculous, he said.

That would be ridiculous, he said.

Then the lying poet has no place in our idea of God?

Then the deceitful poet has no place in our concept of God?

I should say not.

I wouldn't say so.

Or perhaps he may tell a lie because he is afraid of enemies?

Or maybe he lies because he's scared of his enemies?

That is inconceivable.

That's unbelievable.

But he may have friends who are senseless or mad?

But he might have friends who are clueless or crazy?

But no mad or senseless person can be a friend of God.

But no crazy or unreasonable person can be a friend of God.

Then no motive can be imagined why God should lie?

Then no reason can be imagined why God would lie?

None whatever.

None at all.

Then the superhuman and divine is absolutely incapable of falsehood?

Then the superhuman and divine is completely incapable of lying?

Yes.

Yes.

Then is God perfectly simple and true both in word and deed; he changes not; he deceives not, either by sign or word, by dream or waking vision.

Then God is completely simple and true in both His words and actions; He doesn’t change; He doesn’t deceive, whether by sign, word, dream, or waking vision.

Your thoughts, he said, are the reflection of my own.

Your thoughts, he said, are a reflection of my own.

You agree with me then, I said, that this is the second type or form in which we should write and speak about divine things. The gods are not magicians who transform themselves, neither do they deceive mankind in any way.

You agree with me then, I said, that this is the second type or form in which we should write and speak about divine things. The gods are not magicians who change themselves, nor do they trick humanity in any way.

I grant that.

I agree to that.

Then, although we are admirers of Homer, we do not admire the lying dream which Zeus sends to Agamemnon; neither will we praise the verses of Aeschylus in which Thetis says that Apollo at her nuptials

Then, even though we admire Homer, we don't admire the deceptive dream that Zeus sends to Agamemnon; nor will we praise the lines of Aeschylus where Thetis says that Apollo at her wedding

‘Was celebrating in song her fair progeny whose days were to be long, and to know no sickness. And when he had spoken of my lot as in all things blessed of heaven he raised a note of triumph and cheered my soul. And I thought that the word of Phoebus, being divine and full of prophecy, would not fail. And now he himself who uttered the strain, he who was present at the banquet, and who said this—he it is who has slain my son.’

‘Was celebrating in song her beautiful child whose days were meant to be long, free from illness. And when he talked about my fate as being blessed in every way by heaven, he raised a note of triumph that lifted my spirit. I believed that the word of Phoebus, being divine and full of prophecy, would come true. And now, the very one who spoke those words, the one who was at the feast, and who said this—he is the one who has killed my son.’

These are the kind of sentiments about the gods which will arouse our anger; and he who utters them shall be refused a chorus; neither shall we allow teachers to make use of them in the instruction of the young, meaning, as we do, that our guardians, as far as men can be, should be true worshippers of the gods and like them.

These are the kinds of feelings about the gods that will stir our anger; anyone who expresses them will be denied a chorus; we won't permit teachers to use them when educating the young, as we believe that our guardians should be true worshippers of the gods and embody their qualities as much as possible.

I entirely agree, he said, in these principles, and promise to make them my laws.

I completely agree, he said, with these principles, and I promise to make them my laws.

BOOK III.

Such then, I said, are our principles of theology—some tales are to be told, and others are not to be told to our disciples from their youth upwards, if we mean them to honour the gods and their parents, and to value friendship with one another.

So, I said, these are our beliefs about theology—some stories should be told, and others should not be shared with our students from a young age, if we want them to respect the gods and their parents, and to appreciate friendship with each other.

Yes; and I think that our principles are right, he said.

Yeah, and I believe our principles are correct, he said.

But if they are to be courageous, must they not learn other lessons besides these, and lessons of such a kind as will take away the fear of death? Can any man be courageous who has the fear of death in him?

But if they are going to be brave, don’t they need to learn other lessons too, ones that will help them overcome the fear of death? Can anyone truly be brave if they are afraid of dying?

Certainly not, he said.

Definitely not, he said.

And can he be fearless of death, or will he choose death in battle rather than defeat and slavery, who believes the world below to be real and terrible?

And can he really be unafraid of death, or will he choose to die in battle instead of facing defeat and slavery, if he thinks the world below is real and awful?

Impossible.

Not possible.

Then we must assume a control over the narrators of this class of tales as well as over the others, and beg them not simply to revile but rather to commend the world below, intimating to them that their descriptions are untrue, and will do harm to our future warriors.

Then we need to take control of the narrators of these types of tales as well as the others, and ask them not just to criticize but to actually praise the world below, hinting to them that their descriptions are inaccurate and will negatively affect our future warriors.

That will be our duty, he said.

That will be our responsibility, he said.

Then, I said, we shall have to obliterate many obnoxious passages, beginning with the verses,

Then, I said, we’ll need to get rid of a lot of annoying parts, starting with the verses,

‘I would rather be a serf on the land of a poor and portionless man than rule over all the dead who have come to nought.’

‘I would rather be a laborer on the land of a poor and landless man than rule over all the dead who have come to nothing.’

We must also expunge the verse, which tells us how Pluto feared,

We also need to remove the line that explains how Pluto was afraid,

‘Lest the mansions grim and squalid which the gods abhor should be seen both of mortals and immortals.’

'So that both humans and gods don’t have to see the grim and shabby mansions that are loathed by the gods.'

And again:—

And again:—

‘O heavens! verily in the house of Hades there is soul and ghostly form but no mind at all!’

‘Oh heavens! Truly in the realm of Hades, there are souls and ghostly forms, but no minds whatsoever!’

Again of Tiresias:—

Again from Tiresias:—

‘(To him even after death did Persephone grant mind,) that he alone should be wise; but the other souls are flitting shades.’

‘(To him even after death did Persephone grant understanding,) that he alone should be wise; but the other souls are just fleeting shadows.’

Again:—

Again:—

‘The soul flying from the limbs had gone to Hades, lamenting her fate, leaving manhood and youth.’

‘The soul, escaping from the body, had gone to Hades, mourning her fate, leaving behind manhood and youth.’

Again:—

Again:—

‘And the soul, with shrilling cry, passed like smoke beneath the earth.’

‘And the soul, with a piercing scream, drifted like smoke beneath the ground.’

And,—

And—

‘As bats in hollow of mystic cavern, whenever any of them has dropped out of the string and falls from the rock, fly shrilling and cling to one another, so did they with shrilling cry hold together as they moved.’

‘Like bats in a dark cave, whenever one of them drops from the group and falls from the rock, they scream and cling to each other, so did they, with loud cries, stick together as they moved.’

And we must beg Homer and the other poets not to be angry if we strike out these and similar passages, not because they are unpoetical, or unattractive to the popular ear, but because the greater the poetical charm of them, the less are they meet for the ears of boys and men who are meant to be free, and who should fear slavery more than death.

And we have to ask Homer and the other poets not to be upset if we remove these and similar lines, not because they lack poetry or don't appeal to people, but because the more poetic they are, the less suitable they are for boys and men who are meant to be free and who should fear slavery more than death.

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

Also we shall have to reject all the terrible and appalling names which describe the world below—Cocytus and Styx, ghosts under the earth, and sapless shades, and any similar words of which the very mention causes a shudder to pass through the inmost soul of him who hears them. I do not say that these horrible stories may not have a use of some kind; but there is a danger that the nerves of our guardians may be rendered too excitable and effeminate by them.

Also, we need to get rid of all the terrible and horrifying names that describe the world below—Cocytus and Styx, ghosts underground, lifeless shades, and any similar terms that make people shudder just by hearing them. I’m not saying these scary stories don’t serve some purpose; but there’s a risk that our guardians might become too anxious and sensitive because of them.

There is a real danger, he said.

There’s a real danger, he said.

Then we must have no more of them.

Then we can't have any more of them.

True.

True.

Another and a nobler strain must be composed and sung by us.

Another and a better song must be created and sung by us.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And shall we proceed to get rid of the weepings and wailings of famous men?

And should we move on to eliminate the cries and laments of famous people?

They will go with the rest.

They will go with everyone else.

But shall we be right in getting rid of them? Reflect: our principle is that the good man will not consider death terrible to any other good man who is his comrade.

But will we be correct in getting rid of them? Think about it: our belief is that a good person won’t see death as something terrible for any other good person who is their friend.

Yes; that is our principle.

Yes, that's our principle.

And therefore he will not sorrow for his departed friend as though he had suffered anything terrible?

And so he won’t grieve for his lost friend as if he experienced something truly awful?

He will not.

He won't.

Such an one, as we further maintain, is sufficient for himself and his own happiness, and therefore is least in need of other men.

Someone like this, as we further argue, is self-sufficient and capable of their own happiness, and therefore depends the least on others.

True, he said.

For sure, he said.

And for this reason the loss of a son or brother, or the deprivation of fortune, is to him of all men least terrible.

And for this reason, losing a son or brother, or losing wealth, is the least terrible experience for him compared to all other men.

Assuredly.

For sure.

And therefore he will be least likely to lament, and will bear with the greatest equanimity any misfortune of this sort which may befall him.

And so he’s least likely to complain and will handle any misfortune like this with the greatest calmness.

Yes, he will feel such a misfortune far less than another.

Yes, he will feel that misfortune much less than someone else.

Then we shall be right in getting rid of the lamentations of famous men, and making them over to women (and not even to women who are good for anything), or to men of a baser sort, that those who are being educated by us to be the defenders of their country may scorn to do the like.

Then we will be justified in dismissing the complaints of famous men and shifting them onto women (and not even to capable women), or to dishonorable men, so that those we are educating to be the defenders of their country may look down on such behavior.

That will be very right.

That will be very true.

Then we will once more entreat Homer and the other poets not to depict Achilles, who is the son of a goddess, first lying on his side, then on his back, and then on his face; then starting up and sailing in a frenzy along the shores of the barren sea; now taking the sooty ashes in both his hands and pouring them over his head, or weeping and wailing in the various modes which Homer has delineated. Nor should he describe Priam the kinsman of the gods as praying and beseeching,

Then we will once again ask Homer and the other poets not to show Achilles, the son of a goddess, first lying on his side, then on his back, and then on his face; then standing up and rushing wildly along the shores of the empty sea; now taking the dark ashes in both his hands and pouring them over his head, or crying and mourning in the different ways that Homer has described. Nor should he depict Priam, the relative of the gods, as praying and begging,

‘Rolling in the dirt, calling each man loudly by his name.’

‘Rolling in the dirt, shouting each man's name loudly.’

Still more earnestly will we beg of him at all events not to introduce the gods lamenting and saying,

Still more earnestly, we will ask him not to introduce the gods lamenting and saying,

‘Alas! my misery! Alas! that I bore the bravest to my sorrow.’

‘Oh no! My misery! Oh no! That I carried the bravest into my sorrow.’

But if he must introduce the gods, at any rate let him not dare so completely to misrepresent the greatest of the gods, as to make him say—

But if he has to bring in the gods, at least let him not be so bold as to completely misrepresent the greatest of the gods by making him say—

‘O heavens! with my eyes verily I behold a dear friend of mine chased round and round the city, and my heart is sorrowful.’

‘Oh no! I can truly see a dear friend of mine being chased around the city, and my heart is heavy.’

Or again:—

Or again:—

Woe is me that I am fated to have Sarpedon, dearest of men to me, subdued at the hands of Patroclus the son of Menoetius.’

Woe is me that I am destined to see Sarpedon, my dearest friend, defeated by Patroclus, the son of Menoetius.

For if, my sweet Adeimantus, our youth seriously listen to such unworthy representations of the gods, instead of laughing at them as they ought, hardly will any of them deem that he himself, being but a man, can be dishonoured by similar actions; neither will he rebuke any inclination which may arise in his mind to say and do the like. And instead of having any shame or self-control, he will be always whining and lamenting on slight occasions.

For if, my dear Adeimantus, our young people take these unworthy portrayals of the gods seriously instead of laughing them off like they should, it's unlikely that any of them will believe that they, as mere humans, could be dishonored by similar actions; nor will they discourage any thoughts that come to mind to say or do the same. And instead of feeling shame or self-control, they'll just be complaining and crying over little things.

Yes, he said, that is most true.

Yes, he said, that's absolutely true.

Yes, I replied; but that surely is what ought not to be, as the argument has just proved to us; and by that proof we must abide until it is disproved by a better.

Yes, I replied; but that definitely shouldn't be the case, as the argument has just shown us; and we'll have to stick to that proof until a better one comes along that disproves it.

It ought not to be.

It shouldn't be.

Neither ought our guardians to be given to laughter. For a fit of laughter which has been indulged to excess almost always produces a violent reaction.

Our guardians shouldn't be prone to laughter. A prolonged fit of laughter often leads to a strong backlash.

So I believe.

That's what I believe.

Then persons of worth, even if only mortal men, must not be represented as overcome by laughter, and still less must such a representation of the gods be allowed.

Then, people of value, even if they are just mortal men, should not be depicted as being overcome by laughter, and even more so, such a portrayal of the gods should not be permitted.

Still less of the gods, as you say, he replied.

Still less of the gods, as you say, he replied.

Then we shall not suffer such an expression to be used about the gods as that of Homer when he describes how

Then we won't allow such a description to be used about the gods as that of Homer when he describes how

‘Inextinguishable laughter arose among the blessed gods, when they saw Hephaestus bustling about the mansion.’

'Uncontrollable laughter erupted among the blessed gods when they saw Hephaestus bustling around the mansion.'

On your views, we must not admit them.

On your opinions, we can't accept them.

On my views, if you like to father them on me; that we must not admit them is certain.

On my opinion, if you want to place that responsibility on me; it's clear that we can't accept them.

Again, truth should be highly valued; if, as we were saying, a lie is useless to the gods, and useful only as a medicine to men, then the use of such medicines should be restricted to physicians; private individuals have no business with them.

Again, truth should be deeply valued; if, as we mentioned, a lie is of no use to the gods and only serves as a remedy for humans, then the use of such remedies should be limited to doctors; regular people shouldn't be involved with them.

Clearly not, he said.

Clearly not, he stated.

Then if any one at all is to have the privilege of lying, the rulers of the State should be the persons; and they, in their dealings either with enemies or with their own citizens, may be allowed to lie for the public good. But nobody else should meddle with anything of the kind; and although the rulers have this privilege, for a private man to lie to them in return is to be deemed a more heinous fault than for the patient or the pupil of a gymnasium not to speak the truth about his own bodily illnesses to the physician or to the trainer, or for a sailor not to tell the captain what is happening about the ship and the rest of the crew, and how things are going with himself or his fellow sailors.

Then, if anyone is allowed to lie at all, it should be the leaders of the State; they should have the right to deceive in their interactions with either enemies or their own citizens for the greater good. However, no one else should be involved in such matters. While the rulers have this privilege, if a private citizen lies to them in return, it's considered a much worse offense than a patient or a student at a gym not telling the truth about their physical issues to their doctor or trainer, or a sailor not informing the captain about what’s happening on the ship and with the crew, and how things are going for himself or his fellow sailors.

Most true, he said.

Totally true, he said.

If, then, the ruler catches anybody beside himself lying in the State,

If the ruler sees anyone else besides himself lying in the State,

‘Any of the craftsmen, whether he be priest or physician or carpenter,’

‘Any of the craftsmen, whether they are a priest, doctor, or carpenter,’

he will punish him for introducing a practice which is equally subversive and destructive of ship or State.

he will punish him for bringing in a practice that is just as undermining and harmful to the ship or the State.

Most certainly, he said, if our idea of the State is ever carried out.

Most definitely, he said, if we ever go through with our idea of the State.

In the next place our youth must be temperate?

In the next place, our youth must be moderate.

Certainly.

Sure.

Are not the chief elements of temperance, speaking generally, obedience to commanders and self-control in sensual pleasures?

Aren't the main aspects of temperance, generally speaking, following orders and exercising self-control over physical desires?

True.

True.

Then we shall approve such language as that of Diomede in Homer,

Then we'll agree on language like that of Diomede in Homer,

‘Friend, sit still and obey my word,’

‘Friend, sit tight and listen to what I say,’

and the verses which follow,

and the following verses,

‘The Greeks marched breathing prowess, ...in silent awe of their leaders,’

‘The Greeks marched with confidence, ...in quiet admiration of their leaders,’

and other sentiments of the same kind.

and similar feelings.

We shall.

We'll do it.

What of this line,

What about this line,

‘O heavy with wine, who hast the eyes of a dog and the heart of a stag,’

‘O heavy with wine, you who have the eyes of a dog and the heart of a stag,’

and of the words which follow? Would you say that these, or any similar impertinences which private individuals are supposed to address to their rulers, whether in verse or prose, are well or ill spoken?

and what about the words that come next? Would you say that these, or any similar rude remarks that regular people are expected to direct at their leaders, whether in poetry or in prose, are well said or poorly said?

They are ill spoken.

They are poorly spoken.

They may very possibly afford some amusement, but they do not conduce to temperance. And therefore they are likely to do harm to our young men—you would agree with me there?

They might provide some entertainment, but they don't promote moderation. So, they could end up harming our young men—would you agree with me on that?

Yes.

Yes.

And then, again, to make the wisest of men say that nothing in his opinion is more glorious than

And then, once more, to have the wisest of men say that nothing, in his view, is more glorious than

‘When the tables are full of bread and meat, and the cup-bearer carries round wine which he draws from the bowl and pours into the cups,’

‘When the tables are filled with bread and meat, and the cup-bearer passes around wine that he draws from the bowl and pours into the cups,’

is it fit or conducive to temperance for a young man to hear such words? Or the verse

is it appropriate or helpful for a young man to hear such words? Or the verse

‘The saddest of fates is to die and meet destiny from hunger?’

‘The saddest fate is to die and meet your destiny from starvation?’

What would you say again to the tale of Zeus, who, while other gods and men were asleep and he the only person awake, lay devising plans, but forgot them all in a moment through his lust, and was so completely overcome at the sight of Here that he would not even go into the hut, but wanted to lie with her on the ground, declaring that he had never been in such a state of rapture before, even when they first met one another

What would you say about the story of Zeus, who, while everyone else—gods and humans—was asleep and he was the only one awake, was thinking up plans but forgot them all in an instant due to his desire? He was so overwhelmed by the sight of Hera that he wouldn’t even go inside the hut; he just wanted to be with her on the ground, saying that he had never felt such ecstasy before, even when they first met.

‘Without the knowledge of their parents;’

‘Without their parents finding out;’

or that other tale of how Hephaestus, because of similar goings on, cast a chain around Ares and Aphrodite?

or that other story about how Hephaestus, because of similar drama, trapped Ares and Aphrodite with a chain?

Indeed, he said, I am strongly of opinion that they ought not to hear that sort of thing.

Indeed, he said, I firmly believe that they shouldn't listen to that kind of thing.

But any deeds of endurance which are done or told by famous men, these they ought to see and hear; as, for example, what is said in the verses,

But any acts of endurance performed or recounted by famous people, these they should witness and listen to; for instance, what is expressed in the verses,

‘He smote his breast, and thus reproached his heart, Endure, my heart; far worse hast thou endured!’

‘He struck his chest and scolded his heart, Endure, my heart; you’ve endured much worse!’

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

In the next place, we must not let them be receivers of gifts or lovers of money.

Next, we must not allow them to accept gifts or be obsessed with money.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Neither must we sing to them of

Neither must we sing to them of

‘Gifts persuading gods, and persuading reverend kings.’

‘Gifts convincing gods, and convincing respected kings.’

Neither is Phoenix, the tutor of Achilles, to be approved or deemed to have given his pupil good counsel when he told him that he should take the gifts of the Greeks and assist them; but that without a gift he should not lay aside his anger. Neither will we believe or acknowledge Achilles himself to have been such a lover of money that he took Agamemnon’s gifts, or that when he had received payment he restored the dead body of Hector, but that without payment he was unwilling to do so.

Neither can we approve of Phoenix, Achilles' tutor, for advising him to accept the gifts from the Greeks and help them, saying he shouldn't let go of his anger without a gift. We also won't believe or accept that Achilles himself was so greedy that he took Agamemnon’s gifts or that he only returned Hector's body after receiving payment, refusing to do so without it.

Undoubtedly, he said, these are not sentiments which can be approved.

Undoubtedly, he said, these are not feelings that can be accepted.

Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to say that in attributing these feelings to Achilles, or in believing that they are truly attributed to him, he is guilty of downright impiety. As little can I believe the narrative of his insolence to Apollo, where he says,

Loving Homer as I do, I hardly like to say that by attributing these feelings to Achilles, or by believing that they are genuinely his, he is committing a blatant act of disrespect. I can also hardly buy the story of his disrespect toward Apollo, where he says,

‘Thou hast wronged me, O far-darter, most abominable of deities. Verily I would be even with thee, if I had only the power;’

‘You have wronged me, O far-darter, most detestable of gods. Truly I would take my revenge on you if I only had the power;’

or his insubordination to the river-god, on whose divinity he is ready to lay hands; or his offering to the dead Patroclus of his own hair, which had been previously dedicated to the other river-god Spercheius, and that he actually performed this vow; or that he dragged Hector round the tomb of Patroclus, and slaughtered the captives at the pyre; of all this I cannot believe that he was guilty, any more than I can allow our citizens to believe that he, the wise Cheiron’s pupil, the son of a goddess and of Peleus who was the gentlest of men and third in descent from Zeus, was so disordered in his wits as to be at one time the slave of two seemingly inconsistent passions, meanness, not untainted by avarice, combined with overweening contempt of gods and men.

For his disrespect towards the river-god, whose power he is ready to challenge; or his tribute to the deceased Patroclus of his own hair, which he had originally dedicated to the other river-god Spercheius, and that he actually fulfilled this vow; or that he dragged Hector around Patroclus’s tomb and killed the captives at the pyre; I can't believe he was guilty of any of this, just as I can't accept our citizens believing that he, the wise Cheiron’s student, the son of a goddess and Peleus who was the kindest of men and third in line from Zeus, was so out of his mind as to be at one moment the victim of two seemingly contradictory passions: meanness, tinged with greed, mixed with overwhelming scorn for both gods and men.

You are quite right, he replied.

You're totally right, he replied.

And let us equally refuse to believe, or allow to be repeated, the tale of Theseus son of Poseidon, or of Peirithous son of Zeus, going forth as they did to perpetrate a horrid rape; or of any other hero or son of a god daring to do such impious and dreadful things as they falsely ascribe to them in our day: and let us further compel the poets to declare either that these acts were not done by them, or that they were not the sons of gods;—both in the same breath they shall not be permitted to affirm. We will not have them trying to persuade our youth that the gods are the authors of evil, and that heroes are no better than men—sentiments which, as we were saying, are neither pious nor true, for we have already proved that evil cannot come from the gods.

And let’s firmly reject the idea, or allow it to be repeated, that Theseus, son of Poseidon, or Peirithous, son of Zeus, went out to commit a terrible act of violence; or that any other hero or demigod would dare to do such immoral and awful things that people accuse them of today. We should also insist that poets either state that these actions were never performed by them or that they are not actually sons of gods—both cannot be true at the same time. We won’t let them convince our youth that the gods are responsible for wrongdoing and that heroes are no better than regular people—ideas that, as we’ve discussed, are neither respectful nor accurate, since we have already shown that evil cannot come from the gods.

Assuredly not.

Definitely not.

And further they are likely to have a bad effect on those who hear them; for everybody will begin to excuse his own vices when he is convinced that similar wickednesses are always being perpetrated by—

And on top of that, they’re likely to negatively impact those who hear them; because everyone will start to make excuses for their own flaws when they're convinced that similar wrongdoings are constantly being committed by—

‘The kindred of the gods, the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral altar, the altar of Zeus, is aloft in air on the peak of Ida,’

‘The family of the gods, the relatives of Zeus, whose ancestral altar, the altar of Zeus, is high up in the air on the peak of Ida,’

and who have

and who have

‘the blood of deities yet flowing in their veins.’

'the blood of gods still flowing in their veins.'

And therefore let us put an end to such tales, lest they engender laxity of morals among the young.

And so, let's put a stop to these stories, so they don't lead to a decline in morals among young people.

By all means, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

But now that we are determining what classes of subjects are or are not to be spoken of, let us see whether any have been omitted by us. The manner in which gods and demigods and heroes and the world below should be treated has been already laid down.

But now that we're figuring out which topics should or shouldn't be discussed, let's check if we've left anything out. We've already established how to address gods, demigods, heroes, and the underworld.

Very true.

So true.

And what shall we say about men? That is clearly the remaining portion of our subject.

And what should we say about men? That's clearly the last part of our topic.

Clearly so.

Definitely.

But we are not in a condition to answer this question at present, my friend.

But we can’t answer that question right now, my friend.

Why not?

Why not?

Because, if I am not mistaken, we shall have to say that about men poets and story-tellers are guilty of making the gravest misstatements when they tell us that wicked men are often happy, and the good miserable; and that injustice is profitable when undetected, but that justice is a man’s own loss and another’s gain—these things we shall forbid them to utter, and command them to sing and say the opposite.

Because, if I'm not wrong, we need to say that male poets and storytellers seriously mislead us when they claim that bad people are often happy while good people are miserable, and that injustice pays off when it's hidden, but that justice only costs a person and benefits someone else—these are things we will not allow them to say, and we will instruct them to sing and speak the opposite.

To be sure we shall, he replied.

To make sure we will, he answered.

But if you admit that I am right in this, then I shall maintain that you have implied the principle for which we have been all along contending.

But if you agree that I am right about this, then I will argue that you have suggested the principle we've been discussing all along.

I grant the truth of your inference.

I agree with your conclusion.

That such things are or are not to be said about men is a question which we cannot determine until we have discovered what justice is, and how naturally advantageous to the possessor, whether he seem to be just or not.

That we can say certain things about men or not is a question we can’t answer until we figure out what justice really is and how naturally beneficial it is to the person who has it, whether they appear to be just or not.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

Enough of the subjects of poetry: let us now speak of the style; and when this has been considered, both matter and manner will have been completely treated.

Enough about the topics of poetry: let’s now talk about the style; and once we’ve covered this, both content and form will have been fully addressed.

I do not understand what you mean, said Adeimantus.

I don't get what you mean, said Adeimantus.

Then I must make you understand; and perhaps I may be more intelligible if I put the matter in this way. You are aware, I suppose, that all mythology and poetry is a narration of events, either past, present, or to come?

Then I need to make you understand; and maybe I'll be clearer if I explain it like this. You know, I assume, that all mythology and poetry tells stories about events, whether they happened in the past, are happening now, or will happen in the future?

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

And narration may be either simple narration, or imitation, or a union of the two?

And narration can be either straightforward narration, imitation, or a combination of both?

That again, he said, I do not quite understand.

That again, he said, I don't quite get it.

I fear that I must be a ridiculous teacher when I have so much difficulty in making myself apprehended. Like a bad speaker, therefore, I will not take the whole of the subject, but will break a piece off in illustration of my meaning. You know the first lines of the Iliad, in which the poet says that Chryses prayed Agamemnon to release his daughter, and that Agamemnon flew into a passion with him; whereupon Chryses, failing of his object, invoked the anger of the God against the Achaeans. Now as far as these lines,

I worry that I come across as a silly teacher since I struggle so much to get my point across. So, like a poor speaker, I won’t cover everything at once, but I’ll take a part of it to illustrate what I mean. You know the opening lines of the Iliad, where the poet tells how Chryses begged Agamemnon to let his daughter go, and Agamemnon got really angry with him; after that, Chryses, not getting what he wanted, called down the wrath of the God on the Achaeans. Now, as far as these lines,

‘And he prayed all the Greeks, but especially the two sons of Atreus, the chiefs of the people,’

‘And he prayed to all the Greeks, but especially to the two sons of Atreus, the leaders of the people,’

the poet is speaking in his own person; he never leads us to suppose that he is any one else. But in what follows he takes the person of Chryses, and then he does all that he can to make us believe that the speaker is not Homer, but the aged priest himself. And in this double form he has cast the entire narrative of the events which occurred at Troy and in Ithaca and throughout the Odyssey.

the poet speaks for himself; he never makes us think he is anyone else. But next, he takes on the voice of Chryses, trying hard to convince us that the speaker isn't Homer, but the old priest himself. In this dual role, he has shaped the entire story of what happened at Troy, in Ithaca, and throughout the Odyssey.

Yes.

Yes.

And a narrative it remains both in the speeches which the poet recites from time to time and in the intermediate passages?

And it continues to be a story both in the speeches that the poet occasionally recites and in the sections in between.

Quite true.

Totally true.

But when the poet speaks in the person of another, may we not say that he assimilates his style to that of the person who, as he informs you, is going to speak?

But when the poet speaks as someone else, can we not say that he adapts his style to match that of the person he tells you is about to speak?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And this assimilation of himself to another, either by the use of voice or gesture, is the imitation of the person whose character he assumes?

And this adaptation of himself to someone else, whether through speech or movement, is the imitation of the person whose traits he takes on?

Of course.

Sure thing.

Then in this case the narrative of the poet may be said to proceed by way of imitation?

Then in this case, can we say that the poet's narrative unfolds through imitation?

Very true.

So true.

Or, if the poet everywhere appears and never conceals himself, then again the imitation is dropped, and his poetry becomes simple narration. However, in order that I may make my meaning quite clear, and that you may no more say, ‘I don’t understand,’ I will show how the change might be effected. If Homer had said, ‘The priest came, having his daughter’s ransom in his hands, supplicating the Achaeans, and above all the kings;’ and then if, instead of speaking in the person of Chryses, he had continued in his own person, the words would have been, not imitation, but simple narration. The passage would have run as follows (I am no poet, and therefore I drop the metre), ‘The priest came and prayed the gods on behalf of the Greeks that they might capture Troy and return safely home, but begged that they would give him back his daughter, and take the ransom which he brought, and respect the God. Thus he spoke, and the other Greeks revered the priest and assented. But Agamemnon was wroth, and bade him depart and not come again, lest the staff and chaplets of the God should be of no avail to him—the daughter of Chryses should not be released, he said—she should grow old with him in Argos. And then he told him to go away and not to provoke him, if he intended to get home unscathed. And the old man went away in fear and silence, and, when he had left the camp, he called upon Apollo by his many names, reminding him of everything which he had done pleasing to him, whether in building his temples, or in offering sacrifice, and praying that his good deeds might be returned to him, and that the Achaeans might expiate his tears by the arrows of the god,’—and so on. In this way the whole becomes simple narrative.

Or, if the poet is always present and never hides himself, then the imitation falls away, and his poetry turns into straightforward storytelling. To make my point completely clear, so you can't say, "I don't understand," I'll show you how this change could happen. If Homer had written, "The priest came, holding the ransom for his daughter, begging the Achaeans, especially the kings;" and then, instead of speaking as Chryses, he had used his own voice, the words would have been straightforward narration rather than imitation. The passage might have read like this (I'm not a poet, so I'm skipping the meter): "The priest came and prayed to the gods for the Greeks to capture Troy and return home safely, but asked them to give back his daughter and accept the ransom he brought, and to honor the God. He spoke, and the other Greeks respected the priest and agreed. But Agamemnon was angry and told him to leave and not come back, warning that the staff and wreaths of the God wouldn't help him—the daughter of Chryses would not be released, he said—she would grow old with him in Argos. Then he told the priest to go away and not to anger him if he wanted to return safely. The old man left in fear and silence, and when he got outside the camp, he called on Apollo by his many names, reminding him of everything he had done to please him, whether in building his temples, or making sacrifices, and praying that his good deeds might be rewarded, and that the Achaeans might make amends for his tears with the arrows of the god,"—and so on. In this way, it all becomes straightforward narration.

I understand, he said.

I get it, he said.

Or you may suppose the opposite case—that the intermediate passages are omitted, and the dialogue only left.

Or you might think the opposite situation—that the middle sections are skipped, and only the dialogue remains.

That also, he said, I understand; you mean, for example, as in tragedy.

I get that too, he said; you’re talking about something tragic, for instance.

You have conceived my meaning perfectly; and if I mistake not, what you failed to apprehend before is now made clear to you, that poetry and mythology are, in some cases, wholly imitative—instances of this are supplied by tragedy and comedy; there is likewise the opposite style, in which the poet is the only speaker—of this the dithyramb affords the best example; and the combination of both is found in epic, and in several other styles of poetry. Do I take you with me?

You totally understand what I mean; and if I’m not mistaken, what you didn’t get before is now clear to you: poetry and mythology can, in some cases, be completely imitative—tragedy and comedy are examples of this; there’s also the opposite style, where the poet is the only one speaking—this is best shown in the dithyramb; and you can find a mix of both in epic poetry and various other styles. Are you with me?

Yes, he said; I see now what you meant.

Yes, he said; I understand now what you meant.

I will ask you to remember also what I began by saying, that we had done with the subject and might proceed to the style.

I want you to remember what I said at the beginning: that we've wrapped up the topic and can move on to the style.

Yes, I remember.

Yep, I remember.

In saying this, I intended to imply that we must come to an understanding about the mimetic art,—whether the poets, in narrating their stories, are to be allowed by us to imitate, and if so, whether in whole or in part, and if the latter, in what parts; or should all imitation be prohibited?

In saying this, I meant to suggest that we need to come to an agreement about mimetic art—whether we should allow poets to imitate in their storytelling, and if we do allow it, should they imitate fully or only in part, and if it's the latter, which parts? Or should we ban all imitation entirely?

You mean, I suspect, to ask whether tragedy and comedy shall be admitted into our State?

I think you're asking whether we should allow tragedy and comedy in our State?

Yes, I said; but there may be more than this in question: I really do not know as yet, but whither the argument may blow, thither we go.

Yes, I said; but there might be more at stake here: I really don't know yet, but wherever the argument leads us, that's where we'll go.

And go we will, he said.

And we will go, he said.

Then, Adeimantus, let me ask you whether our guardians ought to be imitators; or rather, has not this question been decided by the rule already laid down that one man can only do one thing well, and not many; and that if he attempt many, he will altogether fail of gaining much reputation in any?

Then, Adeimantus, let me ask you whether our guardians should be imitators; or rather, hasn’t this question already been settled by the rule that one person can only do one thing well, and not many; and that if he tries to do many things, he won’t gain much reputation in any of them?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And this is equally true of imitation; no one man can imitate many things as well as he would imitate a single one?

And this is also true for imitation; no one person can imitate multiple things as well as they can imitate just one.

He cannot.

He can't.

Then the same person will hardly be able to play a serious part in life, and at the same time to be an imitator and imitate many other parts as well; for even when two species of imitation are nearly allied, the same persons cannot succeed in both, as, for example, the writers of tragedy and comedy—did you not just now call them imitations?

Then that same person will struggle to take on a serious role in life while also imitating and playing many other roles; because even when two types of imitation are closely related, the same people can't excel in both, like, for example, the writers of tragedy and comedy—did you not just call them imitations?

Yes, I did; and you are right in thinking that the same persons cannot succeed in both.

Yes, I did; and you’re correct in thinking that the same people can’t excel in both.

Any more than they can be rhapsodists and actors at once?

Any more than they can be both poets and actors at the same time?

True.

True.

Neither are comic and tragic actors the same; yet all these things are but imitations.

Neither are comic and tragic actors the same; yet all of these things are just imitations.

They are so.

They're so.

And human nature, Adeimantus, appears to have been coined into yet smaller pieces, and to be as incapable of imitating many things well, as of performing well the actions of which the imitations are copies.

And human nature, Adeimantus, seems to have been divided into even smaller parts and is just as unable to imitate many things effectively as it is to carry out the actions that those imitations represent.

Quite true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

If then we adhere to our original notion and bear in mind that our guardians, setting aside every other business, are to dedicate themselves wholly to the maintenance of freedom in the State, making this their craft, and engaging in no work which does not bear on this end, they ought not to practise or imitate anything else; if they imitate at all, they should imitate from youth upward only those characters which are suitable to their profession—the courageous, temperate, holy, free, and the like; but they should not depict or be skilful at imitating any kind of illiberality or baseness, lest from imitation they should come to be what they imitate. Did you never observe how imitations, beginning in early youth and continuing far into life, at length grow into habits and become a second nature, affecting body, voice, and mind?

If we stick to our original idea and remember that our guardians, putting aside all other duties, are meant to fully commit to maintaining freedom in the State—making this their primary focus and engaging in no activities that don’t contribute to that goal—they shouldn’t practice or copy anything else. If they do imitate anything, it should only be from a young age those traits that are fitting for their role—the brave, the self-controlled, the virtuous, the free, and so on; but they shouldn’t portray or become skilled at imitating any form of unrefinement or wrongdoing, so that they don’t end up becoming what they mimic through imitation. Have you ever noticed how imitations, starting in early childhood and continuing through life, eventually transform into habits and become like a second nature, influencing their body, voice, and mind?

Yes, certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

Then, I said, we will not allow those for whom we profess a care and of whom we say that they ought to be good men, to imitate a woman, whether young or old, quarrelling with her husband, or striving and vaunting against the gods in conceit of her happiness, or when she is in affliction, or sorrow, or weeping; and certainly not one who is in sickness, love, or labour.

Then, I said, we won’t let those we claim to care for and believe should be good people imitate a woman, whether she is young or old, arguing with her husband, boasting and competing with the gods out of pride in her happiness, or when she is suffering, sad, or crying; and definitely not one who is sick, in love, or struggling.

Very right, he said.

Absolutely, he said.

Neither must they represent slaves, male or female, performing the offices of slaves?

Neither must they represent slaves, whether male or female, doing the work of slaves?

They must not.

They can't.

And surely not bad men, whether cowards or any others, who do the reverse of what we have just been prescribing, who scold or mock or revile one another in drink or out of drink, or who in any other manner sin against themselves and their neighbours in word or deed, as the manner of such is. Neither should they be trained to imitate the action or speech of men or women who are mad or bad; for madness, like vice, is to be known but not to be practised or imitated.

And definitely not bad people, whether they're cowards or otherwise, who do the opposite of what we've just suggested, who criticize, mock, or insult each other while drinking or otherwise, or who harm themselves and their neighbors through their words or actions, as is the way of such individuals. They shouldn't be taught to copy the behavior or speech of people who are crazy or immoral; because madness, like vice, should be recognized but not practiced or imitated.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Neither may they imitate smiths or other artificers, or oarsmen, or boatswains, or the like?

Neither may they copy blacksmiths or other craftsmen, or rowers, or ship's mates, or anything similar?

How can they, he said, when they are not allowed to apply their minds to the callings of any of these?

How can they, he asked, when they aren't allowed to think about any of these jobs?

Nor may they imitate the neighing of horses, the bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers and roll of the ocean, thunder, and all that sort of thing?

Nor can they mimic the neighing of horses, the bellowing of bulls, the murmur of rivers, the rolling of the ocean, thunder, and all that sort of stuff?

Nay, he said, if madness be forbidden, neither may they copy the behaviour of madmen.

No, he said, if madness is not allowed, then they can’t imitate the behavior of madmen.

You mean, I said, if I understand you aright, that there is one sort of narrative style which may be employed by a truly good man when he has anything to say, and that another sort will be used by a man of an opposite character and education.

You’re saying, I replied, if I’m getting this right, that there’s one type of storytelling style that a genuinely good person uses when they have something to say, and a different one that someone with the opposite character and background would use.

And which are these two sorts? he asked.

And what are these two types? he asked.

Suppose, I answered, that a just and good man in the course of a narration comes on some saying or action of another good man,—I should imagine that he will like to personate him, and will not be ashamed of this sort of imitation: he will be most ready to play the part of the good man when he is acting firmly and wisely; in a less degree when he is overtaken by illness or love or drink, or has met with any other disaster. But when he comes to a character which is unworthy of him, he will not make a study of that; he will disdain such a person, and will assume his likeness, if at all, for a moment only when he is performing some good action; at other times he will be ashamed to play a part which he has never practised, nor will he like to fashion and frame himself after the baser models; he feels the employment of such an art, unless in jest, to be beneath him, and his mind revolts at it.

Let’s say, I replied, that a fair and good person, while telling a story, encounters a saying or action from another good person—I think they would want to embody that person and wouldn’t feel embarrassed about this kind of imitation. They would be most willing to take on the role of the good person when they are acting thoughtfully and wisely; to a lesser extent when they’re caught up in illness, love, alcohol, or any other trouble. But when faced with a character that doesn’t suit them, they won’t put much effort into that; they will hold such a person in contempt and will only imitate them, if at all, for a brief moment while doing something good; otherwise, they will feel ashamed to play a role they’ve never practiced, nor will they want to shape themselves after lesser examples. They consider engaging in such behavior, unless it’s just for fun, to be below them, and they instinctively reject it.

So I should expect, he replied.

So I guess I should expect that, he replied.

Then he will adopt a mode of narration such as we have illustrated out of Homer, that is to say, his style will be both imitative and narrative; but there will be very little of the former, and a great deal of the latter. Do you agree?

Then he will take on a way of telling the story like what we showed from Homer, meaning his style will be both imitative and narrative; however, there will be very little of the imitative and a lot of the narrative. Do you agree?

Certainly, he said; that is the model which such a speaker must necessarily take.

Certainly, he said; that's the approach such a speaker has to follow.

But there is another sort of character who will narrate anything, and, the worse he is, the more unscrupulous he will be; nothing will be too bad for him: and he will be ready to imitate anything, not as a joke, but in right good earnest, and before a large company. As I was just now saying, he will attempt to represent the roll of thunder, the noise of wind and hail, or the creaking of wheels, and pulleys, and the various sounds of flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all sorts of instruments: he will bark like a dog, bleat like a sheep, or crow like a cock; his entire art will consist in imitation of voice and gesture, and there will be very little narration.

But there’s another type of character who will tell any story, and the worse he is, the more shameless he becomes; nothing is too terrible for him. He’ll be ready to imitate anything, not just for laughs, but with total seriousness, and in front of a big crowd. As I mentioned earlier, he’ll try to mimic the sound of thunder, the howling wind and hail, or the creaking of wheels and pulleys, along with various sounds from flutes, pipes, trumpets, and all kinds of instruments. He’ll bark like a dog, bleat like a sheep, or crow like a rooster; his whole skill will be in mimicking voices and gestures, and there will be hardly any storytelling involved.

That, he said, will be his mode of speaking.

That, he said, will be the way he talks.

These, then, are the two kinds of style?

These are the two types of style?

Yes.

Yes.

And you would agree with me in saying that one of them is simple and has but slight changes; and if the harmony and rhythm are also chosen for their simplicity, the result is that the speaker, if he speaks correctly, is always pretty much the same in style, and he will keep within the limits of a single harmony (for the changes are not great), and in like manner he will make use of nearly the same rhythm?

And you would agree with me that one of them is straightforward and has only a few minor changes; and if the harmony and rhythm are also selected for their simplicity, the outcome is that the speaker, if he speaks properly, will usually have a similar style, and he will stay within the bounds of a single harmony (since the variations are minimal), and similarly, he will use almost the same rhythm?

That is quite true, he said.

That's totally true, he said.

Whereas the other requires all sorts of harmonies and all sorts of rhythms, if the music and the style are to correspond, because the style has all sorts of changes.

Whereas the other needs all kinds of harmonies and rhythms for the music and style to match, since the style has various changes.

That is also perfectly true, he replied.

That's totally true, he said.

And do not the two styles, or the mixture of the two, comprehend all poetry, and every form of expression in words? No one can say anything except in one or other of them or in both together.

And don't the two styles, or a mix of both, cover all poetry and every way of expressing ourselves in words? No one can say anything except in one or the other, or in both at the same time.

They include all, he said.

He said they include everyone.

And shall we receive into our State all the three styles, or one only of the two unmixed styles? or would you include the mixed?

And should we allow all three styles into our State, or just one of the two pure styles? Or would you also consider the mixed style?

I should prefer only to admit the pure imitator of virtue.

I would only want to accept someone who truly imitates virtue.

Yes, I said, Adeimantus, but the mixed style is also very charming: and indeed the pantomimic, which is the opposite of the one chosen by you, is the most popular style with children and their attendants, and with the world in general.

Yes, I said, Adeimantus, but the mixed style is also very appealing: and in fact, the pantomime style, which is the opposite of the one you've chosen, is the most popular among children and their caregivers, as well as with the general public.

I do not deny it.

I won't deny it.

But I suppose you would argue that such a style is unsuitable to our State, in which human nature is not twofold or manifold, for one man plays one part only?

But I guess you would say that such a style doesn't fit our State, where human nature isn't complicated or diverse, since one person only plays one role?

Yes; quite unsuitable.

Yes; totally inappropriate.

And this is the reason why in our State, and in our State only, we shall find a shoemaker to be a shoemaker and not a pilot also, and a husbandman to be a husbandman and not a dicast also, and a soldier a soldier and not a trader also, and the same throughout?

And this is why in our State, and only in our State, we will have a shoemaker who is just a shoemaker, not a pilot as well; a farmer who is just a farmer, not a judge too; and a soldier who is just a soldier, not a trader as well, and so on?

True, he said.

True, he said.

And therefore when any one of these pantomimic gentlemen, who are so clever that they can imitate anything, comes to us, and makes a proposal to exhibit himself and his poetry, we will fall down and worship him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being; but we must also inform him that in our State such as he are not permitted to exist; the law will not allow them. And so when we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland of wool upon his head, we shall send him away to another city. For we mean to employ for our souls’ health the rougher and severer poet or story-teller, who will imitate the style of the virtuous only, and will follow those models which we prescribed at first when we began the education of our soldiers.

So when one of these talented performers, who can mimic anything, comes to us and wants to showcase himself and his poetry, we will praise him as a sweet, holy, and amazing being. But we must also let him know that in our state, people like him aren't allowed to exist; the law prohibits it. Therefore, after we’ve anointed him with myrrh and placed a woolen garland on his head, we’ll send him to another city. Instead, we plan to focus on the tougher and more serious poet or storyteller, who will only imitate virtuous styles and follow the models we laid out when we first started educating our soldiers.

We certainly will, he said, if we have the power.

We definitely will, he said, if we have the ability.

Then now, my friend, I said, that part of music or literary education which relates to the story or myth may be considered to be finished; for the matter and manner have both been discussed.

Then now, my friend, I said, that part of music or literary education that deals with the story or myth can be considered complete; because we’ve talked about both the content and the style.

I think so too, he said.

I think so too, he said.

Next in order will follow melody and song.

Next up will be melody and song.

That is obvious.

That's obvious.

Every one can see already what we ought to say about them, if we are to be consistent with ourselves.

Everyone can see what we should say about them if we want to be consistent with ourselves.

I fear, said Glaucon, laughing, that the word ‘every one’ hardly includes me, for I cannot at the moment say what they should be; though I may guess.

“I’m afraid,” said Glaucon, laughing, “that the term ‘everyone’ doesn’t really include me, because I can’t say right now what they should be; although I can take a guess.”

At any rate you can tell that a song or ode has three parts—the words, the melody, and the rhythm; that degree of knowledge I may presuppose?

At any rate, you can tell that a song or poem has three parts—the lyrics, the melody, and the rhythm; can I assume you have that level of understanding?

Yes, he said; so much as that you may.

Yes, he said; you can do that much.

And as for the words, there will surely be no difference between words which are and which are not set to music; both will conform to the same laws, and these have been already determined by us?

And when it comes to the words, there will definitely be no difference between words that are set to music and those that aren't; both will follow the same rules, which we have already established, right?

Yes.

Yes.

And the melody and rhythm will depend upon the words?

And the melody and rhythm will depend on the words?

Certainly.

Sure.

We were saying, when we spoke of the subject-matter, that we had no need of lamentation and strains of sorrow?

We were saying, when we talked about the topic, that we didn’t need any mourning or expressions of grief?

True.

True.

And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical, and can tell me.

And what are the melodies that express sadness? You have a good ear for music, so you can tell me.

The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the full-toned or bass Lydian, and such like.

The harmonies you’re referring to are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the rich or bass Lydian, and similar ones.

These then, I said, must be banished; even to women who have a character to maintain they are of no use, and much less to men.

These then, I said, must be sent away; even for women who have a reputation to uphold, they are useless, and even more so for men.

Certainly.

Sure.

In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our guardians.

Next, being drunk, weak, and lazy is completely inappropriate for our guardians.

Utterly unbecoming.

Completely unflattering.

And which are the soft or drinking harmonies?

And what are the soothing or drinking harmonies?

The Ionian, he replied, and the Lydian; they are termed ‘relaxed.’

The Ionian and the Lydian, he replied; they are called 'relaxed.'

Well, and are these of any military use?

Well, are these useful for the military?

Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left.

Quite the opposite, he replied; and if that's the case, the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones you have left.

I answered: Of the harmonies I know nothing, but I want to have one warlike, to sound the note or accent which a brave man utters in the hour of danger and stern resolve, or when his cause is failing, and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by some other evil, and at every such crisis meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure; and another to be used by him in times of peace and freedom of action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or on the other hand, when he is expressing his willingness to yield to persuasion or entreaty or admonition, and which represents him when by prudent conduct he has attained his end, not carried away by his success, but acting moderately and wisely under the circumstances, and acquiescing in the event. These two harmonies I ask you to leave; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.

I replied: I know nothing about harmonies, but I want one that sounds fierce, conveying the note or tone a brave person uses in moments of danger and tough decisions, or when their cause is struggling, facing injury or death, or caught in some other misfortune, and at every such moment meets the challenges of fate with a steady step and determination to endure; and another to be used when he is at peace and has the freedom to act, when there’s no urgent need, and he’s trying to persuade God with prayer, or people with teaching and advice, or on the other hand, when he’s open to being persuaded or begged, representing him when through wise actions he has achieved his goals, not overwhelmed by success, but acting moderately and wisely given the situation, and accepting the outcome. These two harmonies I ask you to hold on to; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, hold on to.

And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies of which I was just now speaking.

And these, he replied, are the Dorian and Phrygian harmonies I was just talking about.

Then, I said, if these and these only are to be used in our songs and melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of notes or a panharmonic scale?

Then, I said, if these are the only notes we use in our songs and melodies, we won't need a lot of different notes or a full harmonic scale?

I suppose not.

I guess not.

Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners and complex scales, or the makers of any other many-stringed curiously-harmonised instruments?

Then we won’t support the creators of triangular lyres and intricate scales, or the makers of any other complex stringed instruments?

Certainly not.

Certainly not.

But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players? Would you admit them into our State when you reflect that in this composite use of harmony the flute is worse than all the stringed instruments put together; even the panharmonic music is only an imitation of the flute?

But what do you think about flute makers and flute players? Would you let them into our State when you consider that in this mixed form of harmony, the flute is worse than all the string instruments combined; even the panharmonic music is just mimicking the flute?

Clearly not.

Definitely not.

There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city, and the shepherds may have a pipe in the country.

There are only the lyre and the harp left to play in the city, and the shepherds can have a pipe in the countryside.

That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.

That’s definitely the conclusion we can draw from the argument.

The preferring of Apollo and his instruments to Marsyas and his instruments is not at all strange, I said.

Preferring Apollo and his instruments over Marsyas and his instruments isn't surprising at all, I said.

Not at all, he replied.

Not at all, he said.

And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unconsciously purging the State, which not long ago we termed luxurious.

And so, by the dog of Egypt, we have been unknowingly cleaning up the State that we used to call luxurious not too long ago.

And we have done wisely, he replied.

And we made a smart choice, he replied.

Then let us now finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies, rhythms will naturally follow, and they should be subject to the same rules, for we ought not to seek out complex systems of metre, or metres of every kind, but rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of a courageous and harmonious life; and when we have found them, we shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, not the words to the foot and melody. To say what these rhythms are will be your duty—you must teach me them, as you have already taught me the harmonies.

Then let’s wrap up the cleansing, I said. Next, to create harmony, rhythms will naturally follow, and they should follow the same rules. We shouldn’t go looking for complicated systems of meter or meters of every kind; instead, we should focus on finding the rhythms that express a courageous and harmonious life. Once we identify them, we will match the foot and melody to words that share the same spirit, not the other way around. It will be your responsibility to define these rhythms—you need to teach them to me, just as you’ve already taught me the harmonies.

But, indeed, he replied, I cannot tell you. I only know that there are some three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four notes (i.e. the four notes of the tetrachord.) out of which all the harmonies are composed; that is an observation which I have made. But of what sort of lives they are severally the imitations I am unable to say.

But, honestly, he replied, I can't tell you. I only know that there are basically three principles of rhythm that form the basis of metrical systems, just like there are four notes (the four notes of the tetrachord) that make up all harmonies; that's an observation I've made. But I can't say what kinds of lives each of them imitates.

Then, I said, we must take Damon into our counsels; and he will tell us what rhythms are expressive of meanness, or insolence, or fury, or other unworthiness, and what are to be reserved for the expression of opposite feelings. And I think that I have an indistinct recollection of his mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm; also a dactylic or heroic, and he arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the rhythms equal in the rise and fall of the foot, long and short alternating; and, unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an iambic as well as of a trochaic rhythm, and assigned to them short and long quantities. Also in some cases he appeared to praise or censure the movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm; or perhaps a combination of the two; for I am not certain what he meant. These matters, however, as I was saying, had better be referred to Damon himself, for the analysis of the subject would be difficult, you know? (Socrates expresses himself carelessly in accordance with his assumed ignorance of the details of the subject. In the first part of the sentence he appears to be speaking of paeonic rhythms which are in the ratio of 3/2; in the second part, of dactylic and anapaestic rhythms, which are in the ratio of 1/1; in the last clause, of iambic and trochaic rhythms, which are in the ratio of 1/2 or 2/1.)

Then, I said, we should include Damon in our discussions; he can explain which rhythms represent meanness, insolence, fury, or other negative feelings, and which ones should be reserved for expressing the opposite emotions. I think I vaguely remember him mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm, as well as a dactylic or heroic one. He organized them in a way I don’t fully grasp, making the rhythms equal in their rise and fall, alternating long and short. Unless I’m mistaken, he also talked about both iambic and trochaic rhythms, assigning them short and long values. At times, he seemed to praise or criticize the movement of the foot just as much as the rhythm itself; or maybe it was a mix of both, because I’m not sure what he meant. However, as I was saying, it would be better to refer to Damon himself about these topics, since analyzing them would be tricky, you know?

Rather so, I should say.

I should say so.

But there is no difficulty in seeing that grace or the absence of grace is an effect of good or bad rhythm.

But it's easy to see that grace or the lack of it is a result of good or bad rhythm.

None at all.

None at all.

And also that good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good and bad style; and that harmony and discord in like manner follow style; for our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words, and not the words by them.

And also that good and bad rhythm naturally align with good and bad style; and that harmony and discord similarly follow style; because our principle is that rhythm and harmony are determined by the words, not the other way around.

Just so, he said, they should follow the words.

Just like that, he said, they should follow the words.

And will not the words and the character of the style depend on the temper of the soul?

And won't the words and the style depend on the mood of the soul?

Yes.

Yes.

And everything else on the style?

And what about everything else regarding the style?

Yes.

Yes.

Then beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity,—I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only an euphemism for folly?

Then the beauty of style, harmony, grace, and good rhythm depends on simplicity—I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is just a nice way of saying foolishness.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

And if our youth are to do their work in life, must they not make these graces and harmonies their perpetual aim?

And if our young people are to succeed in life, shouldn't they make these qualities and balances their constant goal?

They must.

They have to.

And surely the art of the painter and every other creative and constructive art are full of them,—weaving, embroidery, architecture, and every kind of manufacture; also nature, animal and vegetable,—in all of them there is grace or the absence of grace. And ugliness and discord and inharmonious motion are nearly allied to ill words and ill nature, as grace and harmony are the twin sisters of goodness and virtue and bear their likeness.

And definitely, the art of painting and all other creative and constructive arts are filled with them—like weaving, embroidery, architecture, and all sorts of manufacturing; also in nature, both animal and plant—there’s always grace or a lack of it. Ugliness, discord, and awkwardness are closely related to bad words and bad character, just as grace and harmony are like the twin sisters of goodness and virtue, reflecting their essence.

That is quite true, he said.

That's completely true, he said.

But shall our superintendence go no further, and are the poets only to be required by us to express the image of the good in their works, on pain, if they do anything else, of expulsion from our State? Or is the same control to be extended to other artists, and are they also to be prohibited from exhibiting the opposite forms of vice and intemperance and meanness and indecency in sculpture and building and the other creative arts; and is he who cannot conform to this rule of ours to be prevented from practising his art in our State, lest the taste of our citizens be corrupted by him? We would not have our guardians grow up amid images of moral deformity, as in some noxious pasture, and there browse and feed upon many a baneful herb and flower day by day, little by little, until they silently gather a festering mass of corruption in their own soul. Let our artists rather be those who are gifted to discern the true nature of the beautiful and graceful; then will our youth dwell in a land of health, amid fair sights and sounds, and receive the good in everything; and beauty, the effluence of fair works, shall flow into the eye and ear, like a health-giving breeze from a purer region, and insensibly draw the soul from earliest years into likeness and sympathy with the beauty of reason.

But should our oversight stop here? Are we only going to ask the poets to represent the idea of goodness in their works, threatening them with expulsion from our State if they do anything else? Should we extend this same control to other artists, prohibiting them from showcasing the negative aspects of vice, excess, meanness, and indecency in sculpture, architecture, and other creative fields? And anyone who can't follow this rule should be barred from practicing their art in our State, so they don’t corrupt our citizens’ taste? We don’t want our guardians to grow up surrounded by images of moral ugliness, like in a harmful pasture, where they slowly consume dangerous plants day by day until they silently accumulate a toxic mass of corruption within their souls. Instead, let’s have artists who can truly recognize beauty and grace; this way, our youth will thrive in a healthy environment filled with beautiful sights and sounds, absorbing goodness in everything. Beauty, the result of fine works, will flow into their eyes and ears like a refreshing breeze from a cleaner place, gradually guiding their souls from a young age to align and resonate with the beauty of reason.

There can be no nobler training than that, he replied.

There’s no better training than that, he replied.

And therefore, I said, Glaucon, musical training is a more potent instrument than any other, because rhythm and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting grace, and making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of him who is ill-educated ungraceful; and also because he who has received this true education of the inner being will most shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in art and nature, and with a true taste, while he praises and rejoices over and receives into his soul the good, and becomes noble and good, he will justly blame and hate the bad, now in the days of his youth, even before he is able to know the reason why; and when reason comes he will recognise and salute the friend with whom his education has made him long familiar.

So, I said, Glaucon, that musical training is a more powerful tool than any other because rhythm and harmony seep into the depths of the soul, where they strongly attach themselves, giving grace to the soul of someone who is well-educated, or making the soul of someone who is poorly educated ungraceful. Additionally, someone who has received this true education of the inner self will be able to spot flaws or gaps in art and nature more sharply and will have a genuine appreciation for the good. As they praise, enjoy, and absorb the good into their soul, becoming noble and good themselves, they will rightly criticize and dislike the bad from a young age, even before they can articulate why. And when reason develops, they will recognize and acknowledge the friend they have become so familiar with through their education.

Yes, he said, I quite agree with you in thinking that our youth should be trained in music and on the grounds which you mention.

Yes, he said, I completely agree with you that our young people should be educated in music and on the points you mentioned.

Just as in learning to read, I said, we were satisfied when we knew the letters of the alphabet, which are very few, in all their recurring sizes and combinations; not slighting them as unimportant whether they occupy a space large or small, but everywhere eager to make them out; and not thinking ourselves perfect in the art of reading until we recognise them wherever they are found:

Just like when we learn to read, I said, we feel accomplished when we understand the letters of the alphabet, which are quite limited, in all their different sizes and combinations; we don’t consider them unimportant just because they take up a big or small space, but we are always excited to figure them out; and we don’t think we’re fully skilled in reading until we can identify them no matter where they appear:

True—

True—

Or, as we recognise the reflection of letters in the water, or in a mirror, only when we know the letters themselves; the same art and study giving us the knowledge of both:

Or, just like we only see the reflection of letters in water or a mirror when we know the letters themselves; the same practice and study give us the understanding of both:

Exactly—

Exactly—

Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor our guardians, whom we have to educate, can ever become musical until we and they know the essential forms of temperance, courage, liberality, magnificence, and their kindred, as well as the contrary forms, in all their combinations, and can recognise them and their images wherever they are found, not slighting them either in small things or great, but believing them all to be within the sphere of one art and study.

Even so, as I keep saying, neither we nor our guardians, whom we need to educate, can ever be truly musical until we and they understand the essential qualities of self-control, bravery, generosity, grandeur, and their related aspects, as well as their opposites, in all their variations. We must be able to recognize them and their representations wherever they appear, not dismissing them in either minor or major matters, but considering them all to be part of one field of art and study.

Most assuredly.

Definitely.

And when a beautiful soul harmonizes with a beautiful form, and the two are cast in one mould, that will be the fairest of sights to him who has an eye to see it?

And when a beautiful soul aligns with a beautiful body, and the two come together as one, that will be the most stunning sight for anyone who can truly recognize it.

The fairest indeed.

The fairest, indeed.

And the fairest is also the loveliest?

And the most beautiful is also the sweetest?

That may be assumed.

That can be assumed.

And the man who has the spirit of harmony will be most in love with the loveliest; but he will not love him who is of an inharmonious soul?

And the man who has a harmonious spirit will be most in love with the most beautiful; but he will not love someone who has a discordant soul.

That is true, he replied, if the deficiency be in his soul; but if there be any merely bodily defect in another he will be patient of it, and will love all the same.

That's true, he replied, if the flaw is in his soul; but if there's just a physical defect in someone else, he'll be understanding about it and will love them just the same.

I perceive, I said, that you have or have had experiences of this sort, and I agree. But let me ask you another question: Has excess of pleasure any affinity to temperance?

I see, I said, that you have had experiences like this, and I agree. But let me ask you another question: Does too much pleasure relate to self-control in any way?

How can that be? he replied; pleasure deprives a man of the use of his faculties quite as much as pain.

"How is that possible?" he replied. "Pleasure takes away a person's ability to think just as much as pain does."

Or any affinity to virtue in general?

Or any connection to virtue in general?

None whatever.

None whatsoever.

Any affinity to wantonness and intemperance?

Any attraction to indulgence and excess?

Yes, the greatest.

Yes, the best.

And is there any greater or keener pleasure than that of sensual love?

Is there any greater or more intense pleasure than that of physical love?

No, nor a madder.

No, nor a crazier.

Whereas true love is a love of beauty and order—temperate and harmonious?

Whereas true love is a love of beauty and balance—calm and harmonious?

Quite true, he said.

So true, he said.

Then no intemperance or madness should be allowed to approach true love?

Then no excess or craziness should be allowed to get close to true love?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Then mad or intemperate pleasure must never be allowed to come near the lover and his beloved; neither of them can have any part in it if their love is of the right sort?

Then reckless or excessive pleasure must never be allowed to come near the lover and his beloved; neither of them can be involved in it if their love is genuine.

No, indeed, Socrates, it must never come near them.

No way, Socrates, it should never get close to them.

Then I suppose that in the city which we are founding you would make a law to the effect that a friend should use no other familiarity to his love than a father would use to his son, and then only for a noble purpose, and he must first have the other’s consent; and this rule is to limit him in all his intercourse, and he is never to be seen going further, or, if he exceeds, he is to be deemed guilty of coarseness and bad taste.

Then I guess that in the city we’re building, you’d create a law stating that a friend should only show affection similar to how a father treats his son, and only for a good reason, and he must first get the other person's approval; this rule is meant to restrict him in all his interactions, and he should never be seen going beyond that. If he does go too far, he should be considered crude and lacking in good taste.

I quite agree, he said.

I totally agree, he said.

Thus much of music, which makes a fair ending; for what should be the end of music if not the love of beauty?

So much of music creates a beautiful conclusion; after all, what could the purpose of music be if not to appreciate beauty?

I agree, he said.

"I agree," he said.

After music comes gymnastic, in which our youth are next to be trained.

After music, the next focus is gymnastics, where our young people will be trained.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Gymnastic as well as music should begin in early years; the training in it should be careful and should continue through life. Now my belief is,—and this is a matter upon which I should like to have your opinion in confirmation of my own, but my own belief is,—not that the good body by any bodily excellence improves the soul, but, on the contrary, that the good soul, by her own excellence, improves the body as far as this may be possible. What do you say?

Gymnastics and music should start at a young age; the training for them should be thorough and carried on throughout life. I believe that it's not the case that a healthy body enhances the soul through physical excellence, but rather that a good soul, through its own merits, can improve the body as much as possible. What do you think?

Yes, I agree.

Yep, I agree.

Then, to the mind when adequately trained, we shall be right in handing over the more particular care of the body; and in order to avoid prolixity we will now only give the general outlines of the subject.

Then, for a well-trained mind, it makes sense to take better care of the body. To keep things concise, we will now provide just the general outlines of the topic.

Very good.

Awesome.

That they must abstain from intoxication has been already remarked by us; for of all persons a guardian should be the last to get drunk and not know where in the world he is.

It has already been noted that they must avoid getting drunk; after all, a guardian should be the last person to be intoxicated and unaware of their surroundings.

Yes, he said; that a guardian should require another guardian to take care of him is ridiculous indeed.

Yes, he said; it's truly absurd for one guardian to expect another guardian to look after him.

But next, what shall we say of their food; for the men are in training for the great contest of all—are they not?

But next, what should we say about their food? The guys are training for the biggest competition, right?

Yes, he said.

Yes, he said.

And will the habit of body of our ordinary athletes be suited to them?

And will the physical condition of our regular athletes be suitable for them?

Why not?

Why not?

I am afraid, I said, that a habit of body such as they have is but a sleepy sort of thing, and rather perilous to health. Do you not observe that these athletes sleep away their lives, and are liable to most dangerous illnesses if they depart, in ever so slight a degree, from their customary regimen?

I’m worried, I said, that their physical routine is a pretty lazy approach and can be quite harmful to health. Don’t you notice that these athletes waste away their lives sleeping, and they’re at risk of serious illnesses if they stray, even a little, from their usual routines?

Yes, I do.

Yep, I do.

Then, I said, a finer sort of training will be required for our warrior athletes, who are to be like wakeful dogs, and to see and hear with the utmost keenness; amid the many changes of water and also of food, of summer heat and winter cold, which they will have to endure when on a campaign, they must not be liable to break down in health.

Then, I said, our warrior athletes will need better training to be like alert dogs, able to see and hear with great sharpness; they must endure the various changes in water and food, the heat of summer, and the cold of winter during campaigns, without compromising their health.

That is my view.

That's my perspective.

The really excellent gymnastic is twin sister of that simple music which we were just now describing.

The truly great gymnastics is like the twin sister of the simple music we were just talking about.

How so?

How's that?

Why, I conceive that there is a gymnastic which, like our music, is simple and good; and especially the military gymnastic.

Why, I believe there's a form of exercise that, like our music, is straightforward and beneficial; particularly the exercises related to the military.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

My meaning may be learned from Homer; he, you know, feeds his heroes at their feasts, when they are campaigning, on soldiers’ fare; they have no fish, although they are on the shores of the Hellespont, and they are not allowed boiled meats but only roast, which is the food most convenient for soldiers, requiring only that they should light a fire, and not involving the trouble of carrying about pots and pans.

You can see what I mean in Homer; he, as you know, feeds his heroes at their feasts on basic soldiers’ food while they’re out on campaigns. They don’t get fish, even though they’re by the shores of the Hellespont, and they can only have roasted meat, not boiled. This is the easiest food for soldiers since it only takes starting a fire and doesn’t require carrying around pots and pans.

True.

True.

And I can hardly be mistaken in saying that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned in Homer. In proscribing them, however, he is not singular; all professional athletes are well aware that a man who is to be in good condition should take nothing of the kind.

And I can hardly be wrong in saying that sweet sauces are nowhere mentioned in Homer. In banning them, though, he isn't alone; all professional athletes know that someone who wants to be in good shape should avoid anything like that.

Yes, he said; and knowing this, they are quite right in not taking them.

Yes, he said; and knowing this, they're completely justified in not taking them.

Then you would not approve of Syracusan dinners, and the refinements of Sicilian cookery?

Then you wouldn’t like dinners in Syracuse, or the fancy dishes from Sicilian cooking?

I think not.

I don't think so.

Nor, if a man is to be in condition, would you allow him to have a Corinthian girl as his fair friend?

Nor would you let a guy have a Corinthian girl as his girlfriend if he wants to be in good shape?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Neither would you approve of the delicacies, as they are thought, of Athenian confectionary?

Neither would you approve of the sweets, as they are considered, of Athenian desserts?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

All such feeding and living may be rightly compared by us to melody and song composed in the panharmonic style, and in all the rhythms.

All this feeding and living can be rightly compared to melody and song created in a harmonious style, with all the rhythms.

Exactly.

Exactly.

There complexity engendered licence, and here disease; whereas simplicity in music was the parent of temperance in the soul; and simplicity in gymnastic of health in the body.

There complexity created chaos, and here illness; while simplicity in music fostered balance in the soul, and simplicity in exercise led to health in the body.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

But when intemperance and diseases multiply in a State, halls of justice and medicine are always being opened; and the arts of the doctor and the lawyer give themselves airs, finding how keen is the interest which not only the slaves but the freemen of a city take about them.

But when excess and illnesses increase in a society, courts and clinics are constantly being established; and the skills of both doctors and lawyers take on a certain pride, noticing how strongly not just the enslaved but also the free citizens of a city care about them.

Of course.

Of course.

And yet what greater proof can there be of a bad and disgraceful state of education than this, that not only artisans and the meaner sort of people need the skill of first-rate physicians and judges, but also those who would profess to have had a liberal education? Is it not disgraceful, and a great sign of want of good-breeding, that a man should have to go abroad for his law and physic because he has none of his own at home, and must therefore surrender himself into the hands of other men whom he makes lords and judges over him?

And what greater evidence is there of a poor and embarrassing education system than the fact that not only skilled workers and ordinary people rely on top-notch doctors and judges, but even those who claim to be well-educated? Isn't it shameful, and a clear indication of bad manners, that someone has to seek legal and medical help elsewhere because they can't find any good options at home, effectively giving others the power to decide for them?

Of all things, he said, the most disgraceful.

Of all things, he said, the most shameful.

Would you say ‘most,’ I replied, when you consider that there is a further stage of the evil in which a man is not only a life-long litigant, passing all his days in the courts, either as plaintiff or defendant, but is actually led by his bad taste to pride himself on his litigiousness; he imagines that he is a master in dishonesty; able to take every crooked turn, and wriggle into and out of every hole, bending like a withy and getting out of the way of justice: and all for what?—in order to gain small points not worth mentioning, he not knowing that so to order his life as to be able to do without a napping judge is a far higher and nobler sort of thing. Is not that still more disgraceful?

Would you say “most?” I replied. Think about it: there’s a deeper level of evil where a person is not just a lifelong litigant, spending all their time in court as either the plaintiff or the defendant, but actually takes pride in their love for litigation due to their bad taste. They believe they’re masters of dishonesty, able to navigate every tricky situation and escape from every legal trap, bending like a willow to avoid justice. And for what? To win insignificant advantages that aren’t even worth mentioning, unaware that living a life in such a way that you don’t need a biased judge is much higher and nobler. Isn’t that even more disgraceful?

Yes, he said, that is still more disgraceful.

Yes, he said, that’s even more shameful.

Well, I said, and to require the help of medicine, not when a wound has to be cured, or on occasion of an epidemic, but just because, by indolence and a habit of life such as we have been describing, men fill themselves with waters and winds, as if their bodies were a marsh, compelling the ingenious sons of Asclepius to find more names for diseases, such as flatulence and catarrh; is not this, too, a disgrace?

Well, I said, needing to rely on medicine not just for treating wounds or during an epidemic, but simply because people, due to laziness and the lifestyle we've been discussing, fill themselves with bad food and unhealthy habits, as if their bodies were a swamp, forcing the clever descendants of Asclepius to come up with more names for diseases like gas and nasal congestion; isn't this, too, a shame?

Yes, he said, they do certainly give very strange and newfangled names to diseases.

Yes, he said, they definitely come up with some really strange and trendy names for diseases.

Yes, I said, and I do not believe that there were any such diseases in the days of Asclepius; and this I infer from the circumstance that the hero Eurypylus, after he has been wounded in Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine well besprinkled with barley-meal and grated cheese, which are certainly inflammatory, and yet the sons of Asclepius who were at the Trojan war do not blame the damsel who gives him the drink, or rebuke Patroclus, who is treating his case.

Yes, I said, and I don’t think there were any diseases like that in the time of Asclepius. I come to this conclusion because the hero Eurypylus, after being wounded in Homer, drinks a posset of Pramnian wine generously sprinkled with barley meal and grated cheese, which are definitely inflammatory. Yet, the sons of Asclepius who were at the Trojan War don’t criticize the girl who gives him the drink or scold Patroclus, who is taking care of him.

Well, he said, that was surely an extraordinary drink to be given to a person in his condition.

Well, he said, that was definitely an unusual drink to give to someone in his condition.

Not so extraordinary, I replied, if you bear in mind that in former days, as is commonly said, before the time of Herodicus, the guild of Asclepius did not practise our present system of medicine, which may be said to educate diseases. But Herodicus, being a trainer, and himself of a sickly constitution, by a combination of training and doctoring found out a way of torturing first and chiefly himself, and secondly the rest of the world.

Not so extraordinary, I replied, if you consider that in the past, as people often say, before Herodicus's time, the Asclepius guild didn't use our current medical system, which can be seen as educating diseases. But Herodicus, as a trainer and someone with a weak constitution, discovered a way to torture primarily himself, and then the rest of the world, through a mix of training and medicine.

How was that? he said.

How was that? he asked.

By the invention of lingering death; for he had a mortal disease which he perpetually tended, and as recovery was out of the question, he passed his entire life as a valetudinarian; he could do nothing but attend upon himself, and he was in constant torment whenever he departed in anything from his usual regimen, and so dying hard, by the help of science he struggled on to old age.

By the invention of a slow death; he had a terminal illness that he constantly managed, and since recovery was impossible, he spent his whole life as an invalid; he could only take care of himself, and he was in constant distress whenever he strayed from his regular routine, so in a difficult state, he clung to life with the help of medical science until old age.

A rare reward of his skill!

A unique reward for his talent!

Yes, I said; a reward which a man might fairly expect who never understood that, if Asclepius did not instruct his descendants in valetudinarian arts, the omission arose, not from ignorance or inexperience of such a branch of medicine, but because he knew that in all well-ordered states every individual has an occupation to which he must attend, and has therefore no leisure to spend in continually being ill. This we remark in the case of the artisan, but, ludicrously enough, do not apply the same rule to people of the richer sort.

Yes, I said; a reward that a person could reasonably expect who never realized that if Asclepius didn't teach his descendants the skills for treating chronic illness, it wasn’t due to a lack of knowledge or experience in that area of medicine, but because he understood that in well-structured societies, everyone has a job they need to focus on, and therefore, they have no time to waste being sick all the time. We see this with workers, yet, rather amusingly, we don’t apply the same logic to those who are wealthier.

How do you mean? he said.

"How do you mean?" he asked.

I mean this: When a carpenter is ill he asks the physician for a rough and ready cure; an emetic or a purge or a cautery or the knife,—these are his remedies. And if some one prescribes for him a course of dietetics, and tells him that he must swathe and swaddle his head, and all that sort of thing, he replies at once that he has no time to be ill, and that he sees no good in a life which is spent in nursing his disease to the neglect of his customary employment; and therefore bidding good-bye to this sort of physician, he resumes his ordinary habits, and either gets well and lives and does his business, or, if his constitution fails, he dies and has no more trouble.

I mean this: When a carpenter gets sick, he asks the doctor for a quick fix; something like a vomit inducer, a laxative, a cauterization, or surgery—these are his solutions. If someone suggests a strict diet and tells him he needs to wrap and pamper his head and all that kind of stuff, he immediately responds that he has no time to be sick and doesn’t see the point in a life spent nursing his illness while ignoring his regular work. So, saying goodbye to that kind of doctor, he goes back to his usual routine, and either he gets better, continues living, and goes on with his job, or if his body gives out, he dies and is done with the hassle.

Yes, he said, and a man in his condition of life ought to use the art of medicine thus far only.

Yes, he said, and a man in his position in life should only use the art of medicine to this extent.

Has he not, I said, an occupation; and what profit would there be in his life if he were deprived of his occupation?

Has he not, I asked, a job; and what benefit would there be in his life if he lost his job?

Quite true, he said.

Totally true, he said.

But with the rich man this is otherwise; of him we do not say that he has any specially appointed work which he must perform, if he would live.

But it's different for the rich man; we don't say that he has any specific duties he needs to fulfill in order to live.

He is generally supposed to have nothing to do.

He is generally thought to have nothing to do.

Then you never heard of the saying of Phocylides, that as soon as a man has a livelihood he should practise virtue?

Then you’ve never heard the saying of Phocylides, that as soon as a person has a way to make a living, they should practice virtue?

Nay, he said, I think that he had better begin somewhat sooner.

No, he said, I think it would be better if he started a bit earlier.

Let us not have a dispute with him about this, I said; but rather ask ourselves: Is the practice of virtue obligatory on the rich man, or can he live without it? And if obligatory on him, then let us raise a further question, whether this dieting of disorders, which is an impediment to the application of the mind in carpentering and the mechanical arts, does not equally stand in the way of the sentiment of Phocylides?

Let’s not argue with him about this, I said; instead, let’s ask ourselves: Is being virtuous a must for the wealthy, or can they get by without it? And if it is a must for them, then let’s ask another question: does this obsession with disorders, which prevents them from focusing on carpentry and other hands-on skills, also hinder the feelings of Phocylides?

Of that, he replied, there can be no doubt; such excessive care of the body, when carried beyond the rules of gymnastic, is most inimical to the practice of virtue.

He replied without a doubt: overly focusing on the body, when taken too far beyond the principles of athletic training, is really harmful to practicing virtue.

Yes, indeed, I replied, and equally incompatible with the management of a house, an army, or an office of state; and, what is most important of all, irreconcileable with any kind of study or thought or self-reflection—there is a constant suspicion that headache and giddiness are to be ascribed to philosophy, and hence all practising or making trial of virtue in the higher sense is absolutely stopped; for a man is always fancying that he is being made ill, and is in constant anxiety about the state of his body.

Yes, that's right, I replied, and it's just as incompatible with running a household, an army, or a government; and most importantly, it's completely at odds with any form of study, contemplation, or self-reflection—there's a constant worry that headaches and dizziness are caused by philosophy, and as a result, any serious effort to practice or explore virtue is completely halted; a person always thinks they are getting sick and is constantly anxious about their health.

Yes, likely enough.

Yeah, probably.

And therefore our politic Asclepius may be supposed to have exhibited the power of his art only to persons who, being generally of healthy constitution and habits of life, had a definite ailment; such as these he cured by purges and operations, and bade them live as usual, herein consulting the interests of the State; but bodies which disease had penetrated through and through he would not have attempted to cure by gradual processes of evacuation and infusion: he did not want to lengthen out good-for-nothing lives, or to have weak fathers begetting weaker sons;—if a man was not able to live in the ordinary way he had no business to cure him; for such a cure would have been of no use either to himself, or to the State.

And so, our political Asclepius can be seen as someone who only showed the power of his skills to people who were generally healthy and had a specific illness. He treated such individuals with cleanses and surgeries and advised them to continue their usual lives, keeping the State's best interests in mind. However, for those whose bodies were deeply affected by disease, he wouldn't try to heal them with slow methods of cleansing and treatment. He didn't want to prolong lives that weren't worth living or have weak fathers producing weaker sons. If a person couldn’t live normally, he believed he shouldn’t be treated because it wouldn't benefit either him or the State.

Then, he said, you regard Asclepius as a statesman.

Then, he said, you view Asclepius as a leader.

Clearly; and his character is further illustrated by his sons. Note that they were heroes in the days of old and practised the medicines of which I am speaking at the siege of Troy: You will remember how, when Pandarus wounded Menelaus, they

Clearly; and his character is further shown through his sons. Note that they were heroes in ancient times and practiced the medicines I'm mentioning during the siege of Troy: You might recall how, when Pandarus wounded Menelaus, they

‘Sucked the blood out of the wound, and sprinkled soothing remedies,’

‘Sucked the blood out of the wound and sprinkled on soothing remedies,’

but they never prescribed what the patient was afterwards to eat or drink in the case of Menelaus, any more than in the case of Eurypylus; the remedies, as they conceived, were enough to heal any man who before he was wounded was healthy and regular in his habits; and even though he did happen to drink a posset of Pramnian wine, he might get well all the same. But they would have nothing to do with unhealthy and intemperate subjects, whose lives were of no use either to themselves or others; the art of medicine was not designed for their good, and though they were as rich as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would have declined to attend them.

but they never suggested what the patient should eat or drink afterwards in the case of Menelaus, just like with Eurypylus; the treatments, as they believed, were enough to heal anyone who was healthy and had good habits before getting wounded; and even if he happened to drink a mix of Pramnian wine, he could still recover. But they wanted nothing to do with unhealthy and excessive people, whose lives were of no benefit to themselves or others; the practice of medicine wasn't meant for their benefit, and even if they were as rich as Midas, the sons of Asclepius would have refused to treat them.

They were very acute persons, those sons of Asclepius.

They were very sharp individuals, those sons of Asclepius.

Naturally so, I replied. Nevertheless, the tragedians and Pindar disobeying our behests, although they acknowledge that Asclepius was the son of Apollo, say also that he was bribed into healing a rich man who was at the point of death, and for this reason he was struck by lightning. But we, in accordance with the principle already affirmed by us, will not believe them when they tell us both;—if he was the son of a god, we maintain that he was not avaricious; or, if he was avaricious, he was not the son of a god.

Naturally, I replied. Still, the playwrights and Pindar, despite our requests, acknowledge that Asclepius was the son of Apollo but also claim that he was bribed to heal a wealthy man who was dying, and because of this, he was struck by lightning. However, we will not believe both statements—if he was the son of a god, we insist that he wasn't greedy; or if he was greedy, then he couldn't be the son of a god.

All that, Socrates, is excellent; but I should like to put a question to you: Ought there not to be good physicians in a State, and are not the best those who have treated the greatest number of constitutions good and bad? and are not the best judges in like manner those who are acquainted with all sorts of moral natures?

All of that, Socrates, is great; but I’d like to ask you a question: Shouldn't there be good doctors in a society, and aren’t the best ones those who have dealt with the most types of conditions, both good and bad? And aren’t the best judges similarly those who understand all kinds of moral characters?

Yes, I said, I too would have good judges and good physicians. But do you know whom I think good?

Yes, I said, I also want to have good judges and good doctors. But do you know who I consider to be good?

Will you tell me?

Will you share with me?

I will, if I can. Let me however note that in the same question you join two things which are not the same.

I will, if I can. However, let me point out that in the same question, you combine two things that are not the same.

How so? he asked.

How's that? he asked.

Why, I said, you join physicians and judges. Now the most skilful physicians are those who, from their youth upwards, have combined with the knowledge of their art the greatest experience of disease; they had better not be robust in health, and should have had all manner of diseases in their own persons. For the body, as I conceive, is not the instrument with which they cure the body; in that case we could not allow them ever to be or to have been sickly; but they cure the body with the mind, and the mind which has become and is sick can cure nothing.

Why, I said, you join doctors and judges. The best doctors are those who, from a young age, have paired their medical knowledge with extensive experience of illnesses; it’s better if they aren’t always in perfect health and have dealt with various diseases themselves. I believe the body isn't the only tool they use to heal; if it were, we couldn’t allow them to ever be unwell themselves. Rather, they heal the body with their mind, and a mind that has been or is currently sick can’t cure anything.

That is very true, he said.

That’s definitely true, he said.

But with the judge it is otherwise; since he governs mind by mind; he ought not therefore to have been trained among vicious minds, and to have associated with them from youth upwards, and to have gone through the whole calendar of crime, only in order that he may quickly infer the crimes of others as he might their bodily diseases from his own self-consciousness; the honourable mind which is to form a healthy judgment should have had no experience or contamination of evil habits when young. And this is the reason why in youth good men often appear to be simple, and are easily practised upon by the dishonest, because they have no examples of what evil is in their own souls.

But with the judge, it’s different; since he rules over minds, he shouldn’t have been raised among corrupt minds or surrounded by them from a young age, nor should he have gone through a whole range of criminal experiences just to quickly understand the crimes of others like he would recognize physical ailments through his self-awareness. A noble mind that is meant to make sound judgments should not have faced any contamination from bad habits in youth. This is why, in their younger years, good people often seem naive and can be easily deceived by the dishonest; they lack examples of evil within their own souls.

Yes, he said, they are far too apt to be deceived.

Yes, he said, they are way too likely to be fooled.

Therefore, I said, the judge should not be young; he should have learned to know evil, not from his own soul, but from late and long observation of the nature of evil in others: knowledge should be his guide, not personal experience.

So, I said, the judge shouldn't be young; he should understand evil not from his own experiences, but from extensive observation of the nature of evil in others: knowledge should lead him, not personal experience.

Yes, he said, that is the ideal of a judge.

Yes, he said, that is what an ideal judge should be.

Yes, I replied, and he will be a good man (which is my answer to your question); for he is good who has a good soul. But the cunning and suspicious nature of which we spoke,—he who has committed many crimes, and fancies himself to be a master in wickedness, when he is amongst his fellows, is wonderful in the precautions which he takes, because he judges of them by himself: but when he gets into the company of men of virtue, who have the experience of age, he appears to be a fool again, owing to his unseasonable suspicions; he cannot recognise an honest man, because he has no pattern of honesty in himself; at the same time, as the bad are more numerous than the good, and he meets with them oftener, he thinks himself, and is by others thought to be, rather wise than foolish.

Yes, I replied, and he will be a good man (which answers your question); because a good person has a good soul. But the sly and distrustful person we talked about—someone who has done many wrongs and thinks he's a master of wickedness among his peers—goes to great lengths to be cautious, judging others by his own standards. However, when he’s around virtuous people who have the wisdom of age, he seems foolish because of his misplaced suspicions. He can’t recognize an honest person since he has no example of honesty within himself. At the same time, because there are more bad people than good, and he encounters them more often, he believes, and others think of him as, more wise than foolish.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

Then the good and wise judge whom we are seeking is not this man, but the other; for vice cannot know virtue too, but a virtuous nature, educated by time, will acquire a knowledge both of virtue and vice: the virtuous, and not the vicious, man has wisdom—in my opinion.

Then the good and wise judge we're looking for isn't this man; it's the other one. A person who's corrupt can't recognize virtue, but someone virtuous, shaped by experience, will understand both virtue and vice. In my view, it's the virtuous person, not the corrupt one, who possesses wisdom.

And in mine also.

And in mine too.

This is the sort of medicine, and this is the sort of law, which you will sanction in your state. They will minister to better natures, giving health both of soul and of body; but those who are diseased in their bodies they will leave to die, and the corrupt and incurable souls they will put an end to themselves.

This is the kind of medicine and this is the kind of law that you will approve in your state. They will support better natures, promoting health for both the soul and the body; however, those who are physically ill will be left to die, and the corrupt and incurable souls will be ended by their own choice.

That is clearly the best thing both for the patients and for the State.

That is clearly the best option for both the patients and the government.

And thus our youth, having been educated only in that simple music which, as we said, inspires temperance, will be reluctant to go to law.

And so our young people, having been taught only that basic music which, as we mentioned, encourages self-control, will be hesitant to resort to legal action.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And the musician, who, keeping to the same track, is content to practise the simple gymnastic, will have nothing to do with medicine unless in some extreme case.

And the musician, who sticks to the same path, is fine with just practicing the basics and won't bother with medicine unless it's a really serious situation.

That I quite believe.

I totally believe that.

The very exercises and tolls which he undergoes are intended to stimulate the spirited element of his nature, and not to increase his strength; he will not, like common athletes, use exercise and regimen to develope his muscles.

The exercises and challenges he faces are meant to energize the spirited side of his personality, not to build his strength; unlike regular athletes, he won’t rely on workouts and strict routines to bulk up his muscles.

Very right, he said.

Absolutely, he said.

Neither are the two arts of music and gymnastic really designed, as is often supposed, the one for the training of the soul, the other for the training of the body.

Neither the arts of music and gymnastics are actually intended, as is commonly believed, one for developing the soul and the other for training the body.

What then is the real object of them?

What is the actual purpose of them?

I believe, I said, that the teachers of both have in view chiefly the improvement of the soul.

I believe, I said, that the teachers of both mainly focus on the improvement of the soul.

How can that be? he asked.

How is that possible? he asked.

Did you never observe, I said, the effect on the mind itself of exclusive devotion to gymnastic, or the opposite effect of an exclusive devotion to music?

Did you never notice, I said, how focusing solely on gym workouts affects the mind, or how exclusively dedicating yourself to music has the opposite effect?

In what way shown? he said.

In what way is it shown? he asked.

The one producing a temper of hardness and ferocity, the other of softness and effeminacy, I replied.

The one creates a mood of toughness and aggression, while the other brings about a sense of gentleness and weakness, I replied.

Yes, he said, I am quite aware that the mere athlete becomes too much of a savage, and that the mere musician is melted and softened beyond what is good for him.

Yes, he said, I know that just being an athlete can make someone too wild, and that just being a musician can make someone too gentle, beyond what is healthy for them.

Yet surely, I said, this ferocity only comes from spirit, which, if rightly educated, would give courage, but, if too much intensified, is liable to become hard and brutal.

Yet surely, I said, this intensity comes from the spirit, which, if properly nurtured, would offer courage, but if pushed too far, can turn harsh and brutal.

That I quite think.

I really think so.

On the other hand the philosopher will have the quality of gentleness. And this also, when too much indulged, will turn to softness, but, if educated rightly, will be gentle and moderate.

On the other hand, the philosopher will have a quality of gentleness. If this is overly indulged, it can become softness, but if developed properly, it will be gentle and balanced.

True.

True.

And in our opinion the guardians ought to have both these qualities?

And we think the guardians should have both these qualities?

Assuredly.

For sure.

And both should be in harmony?

And shouldn’t both be in harmony?

Beyond question.

No doubt.

And the harmonious soul is both temperate and courageous?

And is the harmonious soul both balanced and brave?

Yes.

Yes.

And the inharmonious is cowardly and boorish?

And is the discordant cowardly and rude?

Very true.

So true.

And, when a man allows music to play upon him and to pour into his soul through the funnel of his ears those sweet and soft and melancholy airs of which we were just now speaking, and his whole life is passed in warbling and the delights of song; in the first stage of the process the passion or spirit which is in him is tempered like iron, and made useful, instead of brittle and useless. But, if he carries on the softening and soothing process, in the next stage he begins to melt and waste, until he has wasted away his spirit and cut out the sinews of his soul; and he becomes a feeble warrior.

And when a man lets music wash over him and fill his soul through the funnel of his ears with those sweet, soft, and melancholic tunes we mentioned earlier, and he spends his whole life singing and enjoying music; in the first stage of this process, the passion or spirit within him is tempered like iron, becoming useful instead of fragile and worthless. However, if he continues the softening and soothing process, in the next stage he starts to dissolve and diminish, until he has drained his spirit and weakened the very core of his soul; and he becomes a weak warrior.

Very true.

So true.

If the element of spirit is naturally weak in him the change is speedily accomplished, but if he have a good deal, then the power of music weakening the spirit renders him excitable;—on the least provocation he flames up at once, and is speedily extinguished; instead of having spirit he grows irritable and passionate and is quite impracticable.

If he naturally has a weak spirit, the change happens quickly, but if he has a lot of spirit, then the influence of music weakens it, making him overly sensitive; with the slightest provocation, he gets fired up immediately and is quickly calmed down; instead of having spirit, he becomes irritable and emotional and is pretty much impossible to deal with.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so in gymnastics, if a man takes violent exercise and is a great feeder, and the reverse of a great student of music and philosophy, at first the high condition of his body fills him with pride and spirit, and he becomes twice the man that he was.

And so in gymnastics, if a man works out intensely and eats a lot, and isn't much of a student of music and philosophy, at first his strong physical condition boosts his pride and spirit, making him feel like he's twice the man he used to be.

Certainly.

Sure.

And what happens? if he do nothing else, and holds no converse with the Muses, does not even that intelligence which there may be in him, having no taste of any sort of learning or enquiry or thought or culture, grow feeble and dull and blind, his mind never waking up or receiving nourishment, and his senses not being purged of their mists?

And what happens? If he does nothing else and doesn’t engage with the Muses, doesn’t that intelligence within him, lacking any taste for learning, inquiry, thought, or culture, become weak, dull, and blind? His mind never awakens or receives nourishment, and his senses remain clouded?

True, he said.

True, he said.

And he ends by becoming a hater of philosophy, uncivilized, never using the weapon of persuasion,—he is like a wild beast, all violence and fierceness, and knows no other way of dealing; and he lives in all ignorance and evil conditions, and has no sense of propriety and grace.

And he ends up hating philosophy, becoming uncivilized, never using the power of persuasion—he is like a wild animal, full of violence and aggression, and doesn’t know any other way to respond; he lives in complete ignorance and bad circumstances, lacking any sense of decency and elegance.

That is quite true, he said.

That's so true, he said.

And as there are two principles of human nature, one the spirited and the other the philosophical, some God, as I should say, has given mankind two arts answering to them (and only indirectly to the soul and body), in order that these two principles (like the strings of an instrument) may be relaxed or drawn tighter until they are duly harmonized.

And since there are two sides to human nature, one being spirited and the other philosophical, some divine force, as I would put it, has given humanity two corresponding arts (which relate indirectly to the soul and body) so that these two aspects (like the strings of an instrument) can be loosened or tightened until they are properly harmonized.

That appears to be the intention.

That seems to be the plan.

And he who mingles music with gymnastic in the fairest proportions, and best attempers them to the soul, may be rightly called the true musician and harmonist in a far higher sense than the tuner of the strings.

And the one who combines music and exercise in the best balance, and adapts them most effectively to the soul, can truly be called the real musician and harmonist in a much deeper way than just being someone who tunes instruments.

You are quite right, Socrates.

You're absolutely right, Socrates.

And such a presiding genius will be always required in our State if the government is to last.

And having such a guiding force will always be essential in our State if the government is going to endure.

Yes, he will be absolutely necessary.

Yes, he will be absolutely essential.

Such, then, are our principles of nurture and education: Where would be the use of going into further details about the dances of our citizens, or about their hunting and coursing, their gymnastic and equestrian contests? For these all follow the general principle, and having found that, we shall have no difficulty in discovering them.

Such are our principles of nurturing and education: What’s the point of diving deeper into the dances of our citizens, or their hunting and coursing, or their athletic and horseback competitions? They all follow the same general principle, and once we understand that, we won't have any trouble figuring them out.

I dare say that there will be no difficulty.

I bet there won't be any trouble.

Very good, I said; then what is the next question? Must we not ask who are to be rulers and who subjects?

Very good, I said; so what’s the next question? Shouldn’t we ask who will be the rulers and who will be the subjects?

Certainly.

Sure.

There can be no doubt that the elder must rule the younger.

There’s no doubt that the older should lead the younger.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And that the best of these must rule.

And the best of these should lead.

That is also clear.

That's clear too.

Now, are not the best husbandmen those who are most devoted to husbandry?

Now, aren't the best farmers those who are most dedicated to farming?

Yes.

Yes.

And as we are to have the best of guardians for our city, must they not be those who have most the character of guardians?

And since we want the best guardians for our city, shouldn't they be the ones who truly embody the role of guardians?

Yes.

Yes.

And to this end they ought to be wise and efficient, and to have a special care of the State?

And for this reason, they should be smart and effective, and take special care of the State?

True.

True.

And a man will be most likely to care about that which he loves?

And a man is most likely to care about what he loves?

To be sure.

To be certain.

And he will be most likely to love that which he regards as having the same interests with himself, and that of which the good or evil fortune is supposed by him at any time most to affect his own?

And he's most likely to love what he sees as having the same interests as him, and what he believes can most influence his own good or bad luck at any given time?

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Then there must be a selection. Let us note among the guardians those who in their whole life show the greatest eagerness to do what is for the good of their country, and the greatest repugnance to do what is against her interests.

Then there has to be a selection. Let's identify among the guardians those who throughout their lives demonstrate the most enthusiasm for doing what benefits their country, and the strongest reluctance to do anything that goes against her interests.

Those are the right men.

Those are the right guys.

And they will have to be watched at every age, in order that we may see whether they preserve their resolution, and never, under the influence either of force or enchantment, forget or cast off their sense of duty to the State.

And they will need to be monitored at every age, so we can see if they maintain their determination, and never, whether under pressure or magic, forget or abandon their obligation to the State.

How cast off? he said.

How to get rid of it? he said.

I will explain to you, I replied. A resolution may go out of a man’s mind either with his will or against his will; with his will when he gets rid of a falsehood and learns better, against his will whenever he is deprived of a truth.

I will explain it to you, I replied. A decision can leave a person's mind either with their consent or without it; with their consent when they let go of a falsehood and gain a better understanding, and without their consent whenever they lose a truth.

I understand, he said, the willing loss of a resolution; the meaning of the unwilling I have yet to learn.

I get it, he said, the easy acceptance of giving up a decision; the meaning of the unwillingness I still need to learn.

Why, I said, do you not see that men are unwillingly deprived of good, and willingly of evil? Is not to have lost the truth an evil, and to possess the truth a good? and you would agree that to conceive things as they are is to possess the truth?

Why, I said, do you not see that men are unwillingly deprived of good and willingly accept evil? Isn't losing the truth an evil, and possessing the truth a good? And surely you would agree that understanding things as they are means possessing the truth?

Yes, he replied; I agree with you in thinking that mankind are deprived of truth against their will.

Yes, he replied; I agree with you that humanity is deprived of truth against their will.

And is not this involuntary deprivation caused either by theft, or force, or enchantment?

And isn’t this unintentional loss caused by theft, force, or magic?

Still, he replied, I do not understand you.

Still, he replied, I don't understand you.

I fear that I must have been talking darkly, like the tragedians. I only mean that some men are changed by persuasion and that others forget; argument steals away the hearts of one class, and time of the other; and this I call theft. Now you understand me?

I’m afraid I must have been speaking in a gloomy way, like the tragic actors. What I mean is that some people are influenced by persuasion, while others forget; arguments win over the hearts of one group, and time takes away from the other; and I refer to this as theft. Now do you get what I’m saying?

Yes.

Yes.

Those again who are forced, are those whom the violence of some pain or grief compels to change their opinion.

Those who are forced are the ones whose pain or grief pushes them to change their minds.

I understand, he said, and you are quite right.

"I get it," he said, "and you’re absolutely right."

And you would also acknowledge that the enchanted are those who change their minds either under the softer influence of pleasure, or the sterner influence of fear?

And you would also agree that the enchanted are those who change their minds either under the gentle influence of pleasure or the harsher influence of fear?

Yes, he said; everything that deceives may be said to enchant.

Yes, he said; anything that tricks you can be considered enchanting.

Therefore, as I was just now saying, we must enquire who are the best guardians of their own conviction that what they think the interest of the State is to be the rule of their lives. We must watch them from their youth upwards, and make them perform actions in which they are most likely to forget or to be deceived, and he who remembers and is not deceived is to be selected, and he who fails in the trial is to be rejected. That will be the way?

Therefore, as I was just saying, we need to find out who are the best guardians of their own belief that what they consider the interests of the State should guide their lives. We should observe them from a young age and make them take actions where they are most likely to forget or be misled. Those who remember and are not fooled should be chosen, while those who fail the test should be dismissed. Is that the plan?

Yes.

Yes.

And there should also be toils and pains and conflicts prescribed for them, in which they will be made to give further proof of the same qualities.

And there should also be struggles, hardships, and conflicts assigned to them, in which they will be required to demonstrate those same qualities further.

Very right, he replied.

That's true, he replied.

And then, I said, we must try them with enchantments—that is the third sort of test—and see what will be their behaviour: like those who take colts amid noise and tumult to see if they are of a timid nature, so must we take our youth amid terrors of some kind, and again pass them into pleasures, and prove them more thoroughly than gold is proved in the furnace, that we may discover whether they are armed against all enchantments, and of a noble bearing always, good guardians of themselves and of the music which they have learned, and retaining under all circumstances a rhythmical and harmonious nature, such as will be most serviceable to the individual and to the State. And he who at every age, as boy and youth and in mature life, has come out of the trial victorious and pure, shall be appointed a ruler and guardian of the State; he shall be honoured in life and death, and shall receive sepulture and other memorials of honour, the greatest that we have to give. But him who fails, we must reject. I am inclined to think that this is the sort of way in which our rulers and guardians should be chosen and appointed. I speak generally, and not with any pretension to exactness.

And then I said, we should test them with challenges—that's the third kind of test—and see how they respond: similar to how we put young horses through noise and commotion to determine if they're timid, we must expose our young people to some kind of fears, then introduce them to pleasures, and test them more thoroughly than gold is tested in a furnace. This way, we can find out if they can resist all temptations, if they always have a noble character, are good at looking after themselves and the lessons they've learned, and maintain a rhythmic and harmonious nature, which will be most beneficial to both the individual and the State. Those who emerge from these trials pure and victorious at every stage of life—childhood, youth, and adulthood—should be appointed as rulers and guardians of the State; they will be honored in life and death, receiving burial and other memorials of honor, the highest we can offer. But those who fail must be dismissed. I believe this is a reasonable approach to selecting and appointing our rulers and guardians. I'm speaking broadly, not claiming to be precise.

And, speaking generally, I agree with you, he said.

And, generally speaking, I agree with you, he said.

And perhaps the word ‘guardian’ in the fullest sense ought to be applied to this higher class only who preserve us against foreign enemies and maintain peace among our citizens at home, that the one may not have the will, or the others the power, to harm us. The young men whom we before called guardians may be more properly designated auxiliaries and supporters of the principles of the rulers.

And maybe the term ‘guardian’ should really only refer to this higher class that protects us from foreign enemies and keeps peace among our citizens at home, ensuring that one group doesn't have the intention, and the other group doesn't have the ability, to harm us. The young men we previously referred to as guardians might be better seen as helpers and supporters of the rulers' principles.

I agree with you, he said.

I agree with you, he said.

How then may we devise one of those needful falsehoods of which we lately spoke—just one royal lie which may deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city?

How can we come up with one of those necessary lies we mentioned earlier—just one big lie that might trick the leaders, if that's possible, and at least the rest of the city?

What sort of lie? he said.

What kind of lie? he asked.

Nothing new, I replied; only an old Phoenician tale (Laws) of what has often occurred before now in other places, (as the poets say, and have made the world believe,) though not in our time, and I do not know whether such an event could ever happen again, or could now even be made probable, if it did.

Nothing new, I replied; just an old Phoenician story (Laws) about what has often happened in other places before (as the poets say, and have convinced the world of), although not in our time. I’m not sure if such an event could ever happen again, or if it could even seem likely if it did.

How your words seem to hesitate on your lips!

How your words seem to linger on your lips!

You will not wonder, I replied, at my hesitation when you have heard.

You won't be surprised at my hesitation once you hear.

Speak, he said, and fear not.

Speak, he said, and don't be afraid.

Well then, I will speak, although I really know not how to look you in the face, or in what words to utter the audacious fiction, which I propose to communicate gradually, first to the rulers, then to the soldiers, and lastly to the people. They are to be told that their youth was a dream, and the education and training which they received from us, an appearance only; in reality during all that time they were being formed and fed in the womb of the earth, where they themselves and their arms and appurtenances were manufactured; when they were completed, the earth, their mother, sent them up; and so, their country being their mother and also their nurse, they are bound to advise for her good, and to defend her against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as children of the earth and their own brothers.

Well then, I’ll speak up, even though I’m not really sure how to look you in the eye or what words to use for the bold idea I’m about to share gradually, first with the leaders, then with the soldiers, and finally with the people. They need to be told that their youth was just a fantasy, and the education and training we gave them were only for show; in reality, during all that time, they were being formed and nurtured in the womb of the earth, where they, their weapons, and their tools were made. Once they were ready, their mother, the earth, sent them up; so, since their country is both their mother and their caregiver, they should put her interests first and defend her against threats, regarding her citizens as children of the earth and their own siblings.

You had good reason, he said, to be ashamed of the lie which you were going to tell.

You had every reason, he said, to feel ashamed of the lie you were about to tell.

True, I replied, but there is more coming; I have only told you half. Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you are brothers, yet God has framed you differently. Some of you have the power of command, and in the composition of these he has mingled gold, wherefore also they have the greatest honour; others he has made of silver, to be auxiliaries; others again who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen he has composed of brass and iron; and the species will generally be preserved in the children. But as all are of the same original stock, a golden parent will sometimes have a silver son, or a silver parent a golden son. And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring; for if the son of a golden or silver parent has an admixture of brass and iron, then nature orders a transposition of ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not be pitiful towards the child because he has to descend in the scale and become a husbandman or artisan, just as there may be sons of artisans who having an admixture of gold or silver in them are raised to honour, and become guardians or auxiliaries. For an oracle says that when a man of brass or iron guards the State, it will be destroyed. Such is the tale; is there any possibility of making our citizens believe in it?

Sure, I replied, but there’s more coming; I've only shared half of it. Citizens, we will say in our story, you are all brothers, yet God has made you differently. Some of you have the ability to lead, and to these, He has mixed in gold, which is why they hold the highest honor; others He has made of silver to serve as helpers; and others who are meant to be farmers and craftsmen He has created from brass and iron; and generally, these traits will be passed down to their children. But since everyone comes from the same original lineage, a golden parent can sometimes have a silver child, or a silver parent can have a golden child. And God makes it clear as a fundamental principle to the rulers, above all else, that they should protect the purity of their lineage. They need to pay attention to what traits are present in their children; because if the child of a golden or silver parent has any traits of brass and iron, then nature dictates a change in their status, and the ruler should not feel sorry for the child who must lower his status and become a farmer or craftsman, just as there can be children of craftsmen who, having traits of gold or silver, can be elevated to honor and become leaders or helpers. For an oracle states that if a person made of brass or iron is in charge of the State, it will be destroyed. That is the story; is there any chance we can make our citizens believe it?

Not in the present generation, he replied; there is no way of accomplishing this; but their sons may be made to believe in the tale, and their sons’ sons, and posterity after them.

Not in this generation, he replied; there's no way to achieve this; but their children might come to believe the story, and their grandchildren, and generations that follow.

I see the difficulty, I replied; yet the fostering of such a belief will make them care more for the city and for one another. Enough, however, of the fiction, which may now fly abroad upon the wings of rumour, while we arm our earth-born heroes, and lead them forth under the command of their rulers. Let them look round and select a spot whence they can best suppress insurrection, if any prove refractory within, and also defend themselves against enemies, who like wolves may come down on the fold from without; there let them encamp, and when they have encamped, let them sacrifice to the proper Gods and prepare their dwellings.

I understand the challenge, I replied; but encouraging that belief will make them care more about the city and each other. Enough of the fiction that may now spread through whispers, while we prepare our local heroes and send them out under the authority of their leaders. Let them look around and choose a place from which they can best control any rebellion, if anyone within causes trouble, and also protect themselves from outside threats, like wolves attacking a flock; there, they should set up camp, and once they’ve settled in, they should make sacrifices to the right gods and get their homes ready.

Just so, he said.

Exactly, he said.

And their dwellings must be such as will shield them against the cold of winter and the heat of summer.

And their homes should protect them from the cold of winter and the heat of summer.

I suppose that you mean houses, he replied.

I guess you’re talking about houses, he responded.

Yes, I said; but they must be the houses of soldiers, and not of shop-keepers.

Yes, I said; but they have to be the homes of soldiers, not shopkeepers.

What is the difference? he said.

What's the difference? he asked.

That I will endeavour to explain, I replied. To keep watch-dogs, who, from want of discipline or hunger, or some evil habit or other, would turn upon the sheep and worry them, and behave not like dogs but wolves, would be a foul and monstrous thing in a shepherd?

I will try to explain, I replied. Keeping watch-dogs that, due to lack of training, hunger, or some bad habit, would attack the sheep and act not like dogs but like wolves, would be a terrible and monstrous thing for a shepherd, right?

Truly monstrous, he said.

Really monstrous, he said.

And therefore every care must be taken that our auxiliaries, being stronger than our citizens, may not grow to be too much for them and become savage tyrants instead of friends and allies?

And so we must be very careful that our helpers, who are stronger than our citizens, do not become too powerful and turn into brutal tyrants instead of friends and allies.

Yes, great care should be taken.

Yes, we should be very careful.

And would not a really good education furnish the best safeguard?

And wouldn’t a really great education provide the best protection?

But they are well-educated already, he replied.

But they are already well-educated, he replied.

I cannot be so confident, my dear Glaucon, I said; I am much more certain that they ought to be, and that true education, whatever that may be, will have the greatest tendency to civilize and humanize them in their relations to one another, and to those who are under their protection.

I can't be that confident, my dear Glaucon, I said; I'm much more sure that they should be, and that real education, whatever that might be, will do the most to civilize and humanize them in their interactions with each other and with those they protect.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

And not only their education, but their habitations, and all that belongs to them, should be such as will neither impair their virtue as guardians, nor tempt them to prey upon the other citizens. Any man of sense must acknowledge that.

And not just their education, but also their living conditions and everything associated with them, should be designed in a way that doesn’t compromise their integrity as guardians or entice them to exploit other citizens. Anyone with common sense must recognize that.

He must.

He has to.

Then now let us consider what will be their way of life, if they are to realize our idea of them. In the first place, none of them should have any property of his own beyond what is absolutely necessary; neither should they have a private house or store closed against any one who has a mind to enter; their provisions should be only such as are required by trained warriors, who are men of temperance and courage; they should agree to receive from the citizens a fixed rate of pay, enough to meet the expenses of the year and no more; and they will go to mess and live together like soldiers in a camp. Gold and silver we will tell them that they have from God; the diviner metal is within them, and they have therefore no need of the dross which is current among men, and ought not to pollute the divine by any such earthly admixture; for that commoner metal has been the source of many unholy deeds, but their own is undefiled. And they alone of all the citizens may not touch or handle silver or gold, or be under the same roof with them, or wear them, or drink from them. And this will be their salvation, and they will be the saviours of the State. But should they ever acquire homes or lands or moneys of their own, they will become housekeepers and husbandmen instead of guardians, enemies and tyrants instead of allies of the other citizens; hating and being hated, plotting and being plotted against, they will pass their whole life in much greater terror of internal than of external enemies, and the hour of ruin, both to themselves and to the rest of the State, will be at hand. For all which reasons may we not say that thus shall our State be ordered, and that these shall be the regulations appointed by us for guardians concerning their houses and all other matters?

Let’s consider what their lifestyle will be if they are to embody our vision of them. First, none of them should own anything beyond what is absolutely necessary; they shouldn't have private houses or stores that are closed off to anyone who wants to enter; their provisions should only be what trained warriors need, who are men of self-control and bravery; they should agree to receive a set salary from the citizens, just enough to cover their yearly expenses and nothing more; and they will eat and live together like soldiers in a camp. We'll tell them that they get gold and silver from God; that precious metal is within them, so they don’t need the worthless stuff that people use, and they shouldn’t taint the divine with such earthly mixtures; because that common metal has led to many sinful acts, while their own is pure. And they alone of all the citizens should not touch or handle silver or gold, or live under the same roof with it, or wear it, or drink from it. This will ensure their salvation, and they will be the saviors of the State. But if they ever acquire homes, land, or money of their own, they will become homeowners and farmers instead of guardians, turning into enemies and oppressors rather than allies of the other citizens; filled with hatred and being hated, scheming and being schemed against, they will spend their lives far more afraid of internal threats than external ones, and the moment of destruction, for themselves and for the entire State, will come. For all these reasons, can we not say that this is how our State should be structured, and that these will be the rules we set for guardians regarding their homes and all other matters?

Yes, said Glaucon.

Sure, said Glaucon.

BOOK IV.

Here Adeimantus interposed a question: How would you answer, Socrates, said he, if a person were to say that you are making these people miserable, and that they are the cause of their own unhappiness; the city in fact belongs to them, but they are none the better for it; whereas other men acquire lands, and build large and handsome houses, and have everything handsome about them, offering sacrifices to the gods on their own account, and practising hospitality; moreover, as you were saying just now, they have gold and silver, and all that is usual among the favourites of fortune; but our poor citizens are no better than mercenaries who are quartered in the city and are always mounting guard?

Here, Adeimantus interrupted with a question: "How would you respond, Socrates, if someone were to say that you’re making these people unhappy and that they’re responsible for their own misery? The city actually belongs to them, but it doesn’t benefit them; meanwhile, other people acquire land, build large and beautiful homes, and have everything pleasing about them. They make sacrifices to the gods for their own benefit and practice hospitality. Moreover, as you just mentioned, they possess gold and silver and have everything that’s typical for the lucky ones. But our poor citizens are no better than mercenaries stationed in the city, constantly on guard?"

Yes, I said; and you may add that they are only fed, and not paid in addition to their food, like other men; and therefore they cannot, if they would, take a journey of pleasure; they have no money to spend on a mistress or any other luxurious fancy, which, as the world goes, is thought to be happiness; and many other accusations of the same nature might be added.

Yes, I said; and you can also say that they only get food, not any extra pay like everyone else; so they can’t, even if they wanted to, go on a fun trip; they don’t have money to spend on a girlfriend or any other indulgence that people consider happiness; and many other similar complaints could be added.

But, said he, let us suppose all this to be included in the charge.

But, he said, let's assume all of this is included in the charge.

You mean to ask, I said, what will be our answer?

You’re asking, I said, what our answer will be?

Yes.

Yes.

If we proceed along the old path, my belief, I said, is that we shall find the answer. And our answer will be that, even as they are, our guardians may very likely be the happiest of men; but that our aim in founding the State was not the disproportionate happiness of any one class, but the greatest happiness of the whole; we thought that in a State which is ordered with a view to the good of the whole we should be most likely to find justice, and in the ill-ordered State injustice: and, having found them, we might then decide which of the two is the happier. At present, I take it, we are fashioning the happy State, not piecemeal, or with a view of making a few happy citizens, but as a whole; and by-and-by we will proceed to view the opposite kind of State. Suppose that we were painting a statue, and some one came up to us and said, Why do you not put the most beautiful colours on the most beautiful parts of the body—the eyes ought to be purple, but you have made them black—to him we might fairly answer, Sir, you would not surely have us beautify the eyes to such a degree that they are no longer eyes; consider rather whether, by giving this and the other features their due proportion, we make the whole beautiful. And so I say to you, do not compel us to assign to the guardians a sort of happiness which will make them anything but guardians; for we too can clothe our husbandmen in royal apparel, and set crowns of gold on their heads, and bid them till the ground as much as they like, and no more. Our potters also might be allowed to repose on couches, and feast by the fireside, passing round the winecup, while their wheel is conveniently at hand, and working at pottery only as much as they like; in this way we might make every class happy—and then, as you imagine, the whole State would be happy. But do not put this idea into our heads; for, if we listen to you, the husbandman will be no longer a husbandman, the potter will cease to be a potter, and no one will have the character of any distinct class in the State. Now this is not of much consequence where the corruption of society, and pretension to be what you are not, is confined to cobblers; but when the guardians of the laws and of the government are only seeming and not real guardians, then see how they turn the State upside down; and on the other hand they alone have the power of giving order and happiness to the State. We mean our guardians to be true saviours and not the destroyers of the State, whereas our opponent is thinking of peasants at a festival, who are enjoying a life of revelry, not of citizens who are doing their duty to the State. But, if so, we mean different things, and he is speaking of something which is not a State. And therefore we must consider whether in appointing our guardians we would look to their greatest happiness individually, or whether this principle of happiness does not rather reside in the State as a whole. But if the latter be the truth, then the guardians and auxiliaries, and all others equally with them, must be compelled or induced to do their own work in the best way. And thus the whole State will grow up in a noble order, and the several classes will receive the proportion of happiness which nature assigns to them.

If we continue down the traditional path, I believe, I said, we will find the answer. Our answer will likely show that, just as they are, our guardians might be the happiest people. However, our goal in creating the State wasn’t to ensure the excessive happiness of any single group, but to achieve the greatest happiness for everyone. We believed that in a State designed for the overall good, we would be most likely to find justice, while in a poorly organized State, we would see injustice. Once we've identified these concepts, we can then determine which of the two is the happier. Right now, I think we are building a happy State not in pieces or focused on making a few citizens happy, but as a complete entity; soon, we will look at the opposite type of State. Imagine if we were painting a statue, and someone approached us and asked, "Why don’t you apply the most beautiful colors to the most beautiful parts of the body? The eyes should be purple, but you’ve made them black." To that person, we might reasonably respond, "You surely wouldn’t want us to beautify the eyes to such an extent that they no longer look like eyes; rather, consider whether, by giving each feature its proper proportion, we create beauty in the whole." So I say to you, don’t force us to assign to the guardians a kind of happiness that would change their nature as guardians; we too can dress our farmers in royal clothes, crown them with gold, and let them till the land as much as they wish, and no more. Our potters could also lounge on couches and enjoy hanging out by the fireside, passing around the wine cup, while having their wheel nearby and only working on pottery as much as they desire; in this way, we could make every class happy—and then, as you think, the whole State would be happy. But don’t plant that idea in our minds; because if we listen to you, the farmer will no longer be a farmer, the potter will stop being a potter, and no one will have a distinct role in the State. This wouldn’t matter much if the problem of societal corruption and pretending to be something you’re not is limited to cobblers; but when the guardians of the laws and the government are merely pretending to be real guardians, just see how they disrupt the State. On the other hand, they alone have the power to provide order and happiness to the State. We intend for our guardians to be genuine protectors and not destroyers of the State, while our opponent envisions peasants at a festival living a life of indulgence, not citizens fulfilling their responsibilities to the State. If that’s the case, we have different definitions and he is referring to something that isn’t a State. Therefore, we must think about whether, in appointing our guardians, we should prioritize their individual happiness or consider that true happiness might reside in the State as a whole. If the latter is true, then the guardians, auxiliaries, and everyone else must be encouraged or forced to perform their roles effectively. This way, the entire State will develop in an admirable order, and each class will receive the level of happiness that nature has assigned to them.

I think that you are quite right.

I think you're absolutely right.

I wonder whether you will agree with another remark which occurs to me.

I wonder if you'll agree with another thought I've had.

What may that be?

What could that be?

There seem to be two causes of the deterioration of the arts.

There appear to be two reasons for the decline of the arts.

What are they?

What are those?

Wealth, I said, and poverty.

Wealth and poverty, I said.

How do they act?

How do they behave?

The process is as follows: When a potter becomes rich, will he, think you, any longer take the same pains with his art?

The process is like this: When a potter gets rich, do you think he'll still care as much about his art?

Certainly not.

Absolutely not.

He will grow more and more indolent and careless?

He will become more and more lazy and careless?

Very true.

So true.

And the result will be that he becomes a worse potter?

And will that mean he becomes a worse potter?

Yes; he greatly deteriorates.

Yes, he is getting worse.

But, on the other hand, if he has no money, and cannot provide himself with tools or instruments, he will not work equally well himself, nor will he teach his sons or apprentices to work equally well.

But, on the other hand, if he has no money and can't provide himself with tools or equipment, he won't work as well himself, nor will he teach his sons or apprentices to work as well.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Then, under the influence either of poverty or of wealth, workmen and their work are equally liable to degenerate?

Then, influenced by either poverty or wealth, workers and their work are equally prone to decline?

That is evident.

It's clear.

Here, then, is a discovery of new evils, I said, against which the guardians will have to watch, or they will creep into the city unobserved.

Here’s a discovery of new threats, I said, that the guardians need to keep an eye on, or they will sneak into the city unnoticed.

What evils?

What wrongs?

Wealth, I said, and poverty; the one is the parent of luxury and indolence, and the other of meanness and viciousness, and both of discontent.

Wealth and poverty; one leads to luxury and laziness, while the other brings about stinginess and immorality, and both result in discontent.

That is very true, he replied; but still I should like to know, Socrates, how our city will be able to go to war, especially against an enemy who is rich and powerful, if deprived of the sinews of war.

"That's definitely true," he replied. "But I'd still like to know, Socrates, how our city is going to fight a war, especially against a wealthy and powerful enemy, if we're lacking the resources we need."

There would certainly be a difficulty, I replied, in going to war with one such enemy; but there is no difficulty where there are two of them.

There would definitely be a challenge, I replied, in going to war with one such enemy; but there’s no challenge when there are two of them.

How so? he asked.

How so? he asked.

In the first place, I said, if we have to fight, our side will be trained warriors fighting against an army of rich men.

In the first place, I said, if we have to fight, our side will be skilled fighters going up against an army of wealthy men.

That is true, he said.

That's true, he said.

And do you not suppose, Adeimantus, that a single boxer who was perfect in his art would easily be a match for two stout and well-to-do gentlemen who were not boxers?

And do you really think, Adeimantus, that a single boxer who was perfect in his craft could easily take on two strong and wealthy gentlemen who weren't boxers?

Hardly, if they came upon him at once.

Hardly, if they ran into him all at once.

What, now, I said, if he were able to run away and then turn and strike at the one who first came up? And supposing he were to do this several times under the heat of a scorching sun, might he not, being an expert, overturn more than one stout personage?

What if, I said, he could escape and then attack the first person who came near? And if he did this several times in the blazing sun, could he, being skilled, take down more than one heavyset person?

Certainly, he said, there would be nothing wonderful in that.

Certainly, he said, there wouldn't be anything amazing about that.

And yet rich men probably have a greater superiority in the science and practise of boxing than they have in military qualities.

And still, wealthy people likely have a greater advantage in the knowledge and practice of boxing than they do in military skills.

Likely enough.

Probably.

Then we may assume that our athletes will be able to fight with two or three times their own number?

Then can we assume that our athletes will be able to fight against two or three times their own number?

I agree with you, for I think you right.

I agree with you because I think you're right.

And suppose that, before engaging, our citizens send an embassy to one of the two cities, telling them what is the truth: Silver and gold we neither have nor are permitted to have, but you may; do you therefore come and help us in war, and take the spoils of the other city: Who, on hearing these words, would choose to fight against lean wiry dogs, rather than, with the dogs on their side, against fat and tender sheep?

And imagine that, before getting involved, our citizens send a delegation to one of the two cities, telling them the truth: We don’t have silver or gold, nor are we allowed to have it, but you can; so will you come and help us in the war and take the spoils from the other city? Who, after hearing this, would choose to fight against lean, tough dogs instead of teaming up with the dogs to go against fat and tender sheep?

That is not likely; and yet there might be a danger to the poor State if the wealth of many States were to be gathered into one.

That’s unlikely; still, there could be a risk to the struggling State if the wealth of many States were consolidated into one.

But how simple of you to use the term State at all of any but our own!

But how naive of you to use the term State for anyone else's but our own!

Why so?

Why is that?

You ought to speak of other States in the plural number; not one of them is a city, but many cities, as they say in the game. For indeed any city, however small, is in fact divided into two, one the city of the poor, the other of the rich; these are at war with one another; and in either there are many smaller divisions, and you would be altogether beside the mark if you treated them all as a single State. But if you deal with them as many, and give the wealth or power or persons of the one to the others, you will always have a great many friends and not many enemies. And your State, while the wise order which has now been prescribed continues to prevail in her, will be the greatest of States, I do not mean to say in reputation or appearance, but in deed and truth, though she number not more than a thousand defenders. A single State which is her equal you will hardly find, either among Hellenes or barbarians, though many that appear to be as great and many times greater.

You should refer to other states in the plural; none of them is just one city, but many cities, as they say in the game. In fact, any city, no matter how small, is actually divided into two: one for the poor and the other for the rich; these two are at odds with each other. Each also has many smaller divisions, and you'd be completely missing the point if you treated them all as a single state. But if you approach them as multiple entities, and share the wealth, power, or people of one with the others, you’ll end up having a lot of friends and not many enemies. And your state, while the wise order that has been laid out remains in place, will be the greatest of states—not just in reputation or appearance, but in reality and substance, even if it has only a thousand defenders. You’ll hardly find a single state that equals her, whether among Greeks or non-Greeks, even though many might seem as great or even greater.

That is most true, he said.

That's totally right, he said.

And what, I said, will be the best limit for our rulers to fix when they are considering the size of the State and the amount of territory which they are to include, and beyond which they will not go?

And what, I said, should be the ideal limit for our leaders to set when they're thinking about the size of the State and how much territory they should include, and beyond which they won't go?

What limit would you propose?

What limit would you suggest?

I would allow the State to increase so far as is consistent with unity; that, I think, is the proper limit.

I would let the State grow as long as it stays in line with unity; that, I believe, is the right boundary.

Very good, he said.

Sounds great, he said.

Here then, I said, is another order which will have to be conveyed to our guardians: Let our city be accounted neither large nor small, but one and self-sufficing.

Here, I said, is another instruction that we need to share with our guardians: Let our city be seen as neither large nor small, but as one, complete, and self-sufficient.

And surely, said he, this is not a very severe order which we impose upon them.

And sure, he said, this isn’t a very harsh demand we’re placing on them.

And the other, said I, of which we were speaking before is lighter still,—I mean the duty of degrading the offspring of the guardians when inferior, and of elevating into the rank of guardians the offspring of the lower classes, when naturally superior. The intention was, that, in the case of the citizens generally, each individual should be put to the use for which nature intended him, one to one work, and then every man would do his own business, and be one and not many; and so the whole city would be one and not many.

And the other thing we were discussing earlier is even lighter—I'm talking about the responsibility of demoting the children of the guardians if they’re not up to par and promoting the children from the lower classes if they show natural talent. The idea was that, for the citizens as a whole, each person should be assigned the role that nature intended for them, focusing on one specific task. That way, everyone would handle their own responsibilities, and the whole city would function as one cohesive unit rather than a collection of many.

Yes, he said; that is not so difficult.

Yes, he said; that's not so hard.

The regulations which we are prescribing, my good Adeimantus, are not, as might be supposed, a number of great principles, but trifles all, if care be taken, as the saying is, of the one great thing,—a thing, however, which I would rather call, not great, but sufficient for our purpose.

The rules we're setting out, my good Adeimantus, aren't, as one might think, a bunch of big principles, but rather small details, if we focus on the one important thing—though I'd rather refer to it not as great, but as sufficient for what we need.

What may that be? he asked.

What could that be? he asked.

Education, I said, and nurture: If our citizens are well educated, and grow into sensible men, they will easily see their way through all these, as well as other matters which I omit; such, for example, as marriage, the possession of women and the procreation of children, which will all follow the general principle that friends have all things in common, as the proverb says.

Education and nurturing: If our citizens are well-educated and develop into reasonable individuals, they will clearly understand all these issues and others I haven't mentioned; for instance, topics like marriage, relationships, and having children, which will all align with the general idea that friends share everything in common, as the saying goes.

That will be the best way of settling them.

That will be the best way to resolve them.

Also, I said, the State, if once started well, moves with accumulating force like a wheel. For good nurture and education implant good constitutions, and these good constitutions taking root in a good education improve more and more, and this improvement affects the breed in man as in other animals.

Also, I said, the State, once it gets going in the right direction, moves with growing strength like a wheel. Good upbringing and education create strong foundations, and these strong foundations, supported by a good education, continue to develop and improve. This improvement influences people's qualities just like it does with other animals.

Very possibly, he said.

Probably, he said.

Then to sum up: This is the point to which, above all, the attention of our rulers should be directed,—that music and gymnastic be preserved in their original form, and no innovation made. They must do their utmost to maintain them intact. And when any one says that mankind most regard

Then to sum up: This is the point that, above all, our leaders should focus on—that music and physical education should be kept in their original form, with no changes made. They must do their best to preserve them as they are. And when someone claims that people should most regard

‘The newest song which the singers have,’

‘The latest song that the singers have,’

they will be afraid that he may be praising, not new songs, but a new kind of song; and this ought not to be praised, or conceived to be the meaning of the poet; for any musical innovation is full of danger to the whole State, and ought to be prohibited. So Damon tells me, and I can quite believe him;—he says that when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them.

They will be worried that he might be applauding not just new songs, but a new type of song altogether; and this shouldn’t be praised, nor should it be seen as the poet's intention. Any change in music is risky for the entire State and should be banned. That's what Damon tells me, and I definitely believe him—he says that when musical styles change, the fundamental laws of the State always change along with them.

Yes, said Adeimantus; and you may add my suffrage to Damon’s and your own.

Yes, said Adeimantus; and you can count my vote along with Damon’s and yours.

Then, I said, our guardians must lay the foundations of their fortress in music?

Then, I said, our guardians need to build the foundations of their fortress in music?

Yes, he said; the lawlessness of which you speak too easily steals in.

Yes, he said; the lawlessness you’re talking about creeps in too easily.

Yes, I replied, in the form of amusement; and at first sight it appears harmless.

Yes, I replied, amused; and at first glance it seems harmless.

Why, yes, he said, and there is no harm; were it not that little by little this spirit of licence, finding a home, imperceptibly penetrates into manners and customs; whence, issuing with greater force, it invades contracts between man and man, and from contracts goes on to laws and constitutions, in utter recklessness, ending at last, Socrates, by an overthrow of all rights, private as well as public.

Sure, he said, and it's not harmful; it's just that gradually this spirit of freedom, finding a place, quietly seeps into behavior and traditions; from there, it bursts forth more powerfully, invading agreements between people, and from agreements, it moves on to laws and constitutions with complete disregard, ultimately leading, Socrates, to the collapse of all rights, both private and public.

Is that true? I said.

Is that true? I asked.

That is my belief, he replied.

That’s what I believe, he said.

Then, as I was saying, our youth should be trained from the first in a stricter system, for if amusements become lawless, and the youths themselves become lawless, they can never grow up into well-conducted and virtuous citizens.

Then, as I was saying, our young people should be raised from the start in a stricter system, because if entertainment becomes chaotic and the youth themselves act without rules, they can never grow up to be well-behaved and virtuous citizens.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And when they have made a good beginning in play, and by the help of music have gained the habit of good order, then this habit of order, in a manner how unlike the lawless play of the others! will accompany them in all their actions and be a principle of growth to them, and if there be any fallen places in the State will raise them up again.

And when they start off well in their activities, and with the help of music develop the habit of good organization, this sense of order—so different from the chaotic play of others—will stay with them in everything they do and serve as a foundation for their development. If there are any declining areas in society, it will help restore them.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Thus educated, they will invent for themselves any lesser rules which their predecessors have altogether neglected.

So educated, they will create their own lesser rules that their predecessors completely overlooked.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean such things as these:—when the young are to be silent before their elders; how they are to show respect to them by standing and making them sit; what honour is due to parents; what garments or shoes are to be worn; the mode of dressing the hair; deportment and manners in general. You would agree with me?

I mean things like this:—when young people should be quiet around their elders; how they should show respect by standing while the elders sit; what honor is owed to parents; what clothes or shoes should be worn; how to style hair; and general behavior and manners. Do you agree with me?

Yes.

Yes.

But there is, I think, small wisdom in legislating about such matters,—I doubt if it is ever done; nor are any precise written enactments about them likely to be lasting.

But I think there's little wisdom in creating laws about such things—I doubt it ever really happens; and any specific written laws on them are unlikely to endure.

Impossible.

Not happening.

It would seem, Adeimantus, that the direction in which education starts a man, will determine his future life. Does not like always attract like?

It seems, Adeimantus, that the path education takes a person on will shape their future. Doesn't like always attract like?

To be sure.

For sure.

Until some one rare and grand result is reached which may be good, and may be the reverse of good?

Until a rare and significant outcome is reached that could be positive or negative?

That is not to be denied.

That's undeniable.

And for this reason, I said, I shall not attempt to legislate further about them.

And for this reason, I said, I won’t try to make any more laws about them.

Naturally enough, he replied.

Of course, he replied.

Well, and about the business of the agora, and the ordinary dealings between man and man, or again about agreements with artisans; about insult and injury, or the commencement of actions, and the appointment of juries, what would you say? there may also arise questions about any impositions and exactions of market and harbour dues which may be required, and in general about the regulations of markets, police, harbours, and the like. But, oh heavens! shall we condescend to legislate on any of these particulars?

Well, when it comes to the workings of the marketplace and the everyday interactions between people, or discussions about agreements with tradespeople; about insults and harm, the start of lawsuits, and how juries are assigned, what do you think? There might also be questions about any taxes and fees for markets and ports that could be imposed, and generally about the rules governing markets, law enforcement, ports, and similar matters. But, oh my goodness! Should we really stoop to making laws on any of this?

I think, he said, that there is no need to impose laws about them on good men; what regulations are necessary they will find out soon enough for themselves.

"I think," he said, "that there's no need to impose laws about them on good people; whatever rules are necessary, they'll figure them out soon enough on their own."

Yes, I said, my friend, if God will only preserve to them the laws which we have given them.

Yes, I said, my friend, if God will just keep the laws we've given them safe.

And without divine help, said Adeimantus, they will go on for ever making and mending their laws and their lives in the hope of attaining perfection.

And without divine help, Adeimantus said, they will continue forever creating and fixing their laws and lives, hoping to reach perfection.

You would compare them, I said, to those invalids who, having no self-restraint, will not leave off their habits of intemperance?

You would compare them, I said, to those people who, lacking self-control, can’t give up their excessive habits?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yes, I said; and what a delightful life they lead! they are always doctoring and increasing and complicating their disorders, and always fancying that they will be cured by any nostrum which anybody advises them to try.

Yes, I said; and what a wonderful life they have! They are constantly treating, amplifying, and complicating their ailments, always convinced that any remedy someone suggests will cure them.

Such cases are very common, he said, with invalids of this sort.

These cases are really common, he said, with people who have this kind of disability.

Yes, I replied; and the charming thing is that they deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth, which is simply that, unless they give up eating and drinking and wenching and idling, neither drug nor cautery nor spell nor amulet nor any other remedy will avail.

Yes, I replied; and the interesting part is that they consider their worst enemy to be the one who tells them the truth, which is just that, unless they stop eating, drinking, fooling around, and being lazy, no medicine, surgery, magic, charm, or any other remedy will help.

Charming! he replied. I see nothing charming in going into a passion with a man who tells you what is right.

"Charming!" he replied. "I see nothing charming about getting angry with someone who is telling you what’s right."

These gentlemen, I said, do not seem to be in your good graces.

These guys, I said, don’t seem to be in your good books.

Assuredly not.

Definitely not.

Nor would you praise the behaviour of States which act like the men whom I was just now describing. For are there not ill-ordered States in which the citizens are forbidden under pain of death to alter the constitution; and yet he who most sweetly courts those who live under this regime and indulges them and fawns upon them and is skilful in anticipating and gratifying their humours is held to be a great and good statesman—do not these States resemble the persons whom I was describing?

Nor would you commend the actions of governments that behave like the men I was just describing. Aren't there poorly managed countries where citizens are threatened with death if they try to change the constitution? And yet, the one who flatters those living under this system, indulges them, and skillfully anticipates and satisfies their whims is considered a great and good politician—do these governments not resemble the people I was talking about?

Yes, he said; the States are as bad as the men; and I am very far from praising them.

Yes, he said; the States are just as bad as the people, and I am definitely not praising them.

But do you not admire, I said, the coolness and dexterity of these ready ministers of political corruption?

But don’t you admire, I said, the chill and skill of these quick ministers of political corruption?

Yes, he said, I do; but not of all of them, for there are some whom the applause of the multitude has deluded into the belief that they are really statesmen, and these are not much to be admired.

Yes, he said, I do; but not all of them, because there are some who have been misled by the applause of the crowd into thinking they are truly statesmen, and they’re not really worth admiring.

What do you mean? I said; you should have more feeling for them. When a man cannot measure, and a great many others who cannot measure declare that he is four cubits high, can he help believing what they say?

What do you mean? I said; you should be more empathetic towards them. When a man can’t gauge his own height, and a lot of others who can’t measure either claim that he is four cubits tall, can he help but believe what they say?

Nay, he said, certainly not in that case.

No, he said, definitely not in that case.

Well, then, do not be angry with them; for are they not as good as a play, trying their hand at paltry reforms such as I was describing; they are always fancying that by legislation they will make an end of frauds in contracts, and the other rascalities which I was mentioning, not knowing that they are in reality cutting off the heads of a hydra?

Well, don’t be mad at them; aren’t they just like a show, attempting minor reforms like I was saying? They always think that by passing laws, they can put a stop to scams in contracts and other shady practices I mentioned, not realizing that they’re really just chopping off the heads of a hydra?

Yes, he said; that is just what they are doing.

Yes, he said; that's exactly what they're doing.

I conceive, I said, that the true legislator will not trouble himself with this class of enactments whether concerning laws or the constitution either in an ill-ordered or in a well-ordered State; for in the former they are quite useless, and in the latter there will be no difficulty in devising them; and many of them will naturally flow out of our previous regulations.

I believe, I said, that a true lawmaker won’t worry about these kinds of laws or the constitution, whether in a chaotic or a well-organized state; in the first case, they’re completely pointless, and in the second, creating them won’t be an issue at all; many of them will naturally come from our existing regulations.

What, then, he said, is still remaining to us of the work of legislation?

What, then, he said, is left for us to do in the work of legislation?

Nothing to us, I replied; but to Apollo, the God of Delphi, there remains the ordering of the greatest and noblest and chiefest things of all.

Nothing to us, I replied; but to Apollo, the God of Delphi, there remains the arrangement of the greatest, noblest, and most important things of all.

Which are they? he said.

Which ones are they? he said.

The institution of temples and sacrifices, and the entire service of gods, demigods, and heroes; also the ordering of the repositories of the dead, and the rites which have to be observed by him who would propitiate the inhabitants of the world below. These are matters of which we are ignorant ourselves, and as founders of a city we should be unwise in trusting them to any interpreter but our ancestral deity. He is the god who sits in the centre, on the navel of the earth, and he is the interpreter of religion to all mankind.

The establishment of temples and sacrifices, along with the whole service dedicated to gods, demigods, and heroes; the organization of burial sites, and the rituals needed to honor the spirits of the underworld. These are things we don’t fully understand ourselves, and as founders of a city, it would be foolish to rely on anyone but our ancestral deity for guidance. He is the god who resides at the center, the navel of the earth, and he provides religious insight for all humanity.

You are right, and we will do as you propose.

You’re right, and we’ll go with your suggestion.

But where, amid all this, is justice? son of Ariston, tell me where. Now that our city has been made habitable, light a candle and search, and get your brother and Polemarchus and the rest of our friends to help, and let us see where in it we can discover justice and where injustice, and in what they differ from one another, and which of them the man who would be happy should have for his portion, whether seen or unseen by gods and men.

But where, in all of this, is justice? Son of Ariston, tell me where. Now that our city has become livable, light a candle and search, and get your brother and Polemarchus and the rest of our friends to help. Let’s see where we can find justice and where we can find injustice, how they differ from each other, and which one a person who wants to be happy should have, whether it's seen by gods and men or not.

Nonsense, said Glaucon: did you not promise to search yourself, saying that for you not to help justice in her need would be an impiety?

“Nonsense,” said Glaucon. “Didn’t you promise to look within yourself, saying that not helping justice in her time of need would be wrong?”

I do not deny that I said so, and as you remind me, I will be as good as my word; but you must join.

I won't deny that I said that, and as you remind me, I'll stick to my word; but you have to join.

We will, he replied.

"Sure," he replied.

Well, then, I hope to make the discovery in this way: I mean to begin with the assumption that our State, if rightly ordered, is perfect.

Well, I hope to make the discovery this way: I plan to start with the assumption that our State, when properly organized, is perfect.

That is most certain.

That's for sure.

And being perfect, is therefore wise and valiant and temperate and just.

Being perfect means being wise, brave, balanced, and fair.

That is likewise clear.

That's also clear.

And whichever of these qualities we find in the State, the one which is not found will be the residue?

And whatever qualities we see in the State, the one that’s missing will be the leftover?

Very good.

Great.

If there were four things, and we were searching for one of them, wherever it might be, the one sought for might be known to us from the first, and there would be no further trouble; or we might know the other three first, and then the fourth would clearly be the one left.

If there are four things, and we're looking for one of them, no matter where it is, we might already know which one we're searching for from the start, which would save us any further hassle; or we could figure out the other three first, and then it would be obvious that the fourth is the one we're after.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And is not a similar method to be pursued about the virtues, which are also four in number?

And shouldn't a similar approach be taken regarding the virtues, which also number four?

Clearly.

Clearly.

First among the virtues found in the State, wisdom comes into view, and in this I detect a certain peculiarity.

First among the virtues found in the State, wisdom stands out, and in this, I notice a unique quality.

What is that?

What's that?

The State which we have been describing is said to be wise as being good in counsel?

The State we've been talking about is considered wise because it makes good decisions.

Very true.

So true.

And good counsel is clearly a kind of knowledge, for not by ignorance, but by knowledge, do men counsel well?

And good advice is definitely a type of knowledge, because it's not through ignorance, but through knowledge, that people give good advice.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And the kinds of knowledge in a State are many and diverse?

And are the types of knowledge in a state numerous and varied?

Of course.

Sure.

There is the knowledge of the carpenter; but is that the sort of knowledge which gives a city the title of wise and good in counsel?

There’s the knowledge of the carpenter, but is that the kind of knowledge that makes a city wise and good at giving advice?

Certainly not; that would only give a city the reputation of skill in carpentering.

Certainly not; that would just make the city known for its carpentry skills.

Then a city is not to be called wise because possessing a knowledge which counsels for the best about wooden implements?

Then a city shouldn't be considered wise just because it has knowledge that advises on the best wooden tools?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Nor by reason of a knowledge which advises about brazen pots, I said, nor as possessing any other similar knowledge?

Nor because of knowledge that talks about brazen pots, I said, nor as having any other similar knowledge?

Not by reason of any of them, he said.

Not because of any of them, he said.

Nor yet by reason of a knowledge which cultivates the earth; that would give the city the name of agricultural?

Nor is it because of knowledge that cultivates the land; would that make the city agricultural?

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I said, and is there any knowledge in our recently-founded State among any of the citizens which advises, not about any particular thing in the State, but about the whole, and considers how a State can best deal with itself and with other States?

Well, I said, is there any knowledge among the citizens of our newly established State that provides guidance, not just about specific issues within the State, but about the overall picture, and examines how a State can best manage itself and interact with other States?

There certainly is.

There definitely is.

And what is this knowledge, and among whom is it found? I asked.

And what is this knowledge, and who has it? I asked.

It is the knowledge of the guardians, he replied, and is found among those whom we were just now describing as perfect guardians.

It’s the knowledge of the guardians, he replied, and it’s found among those we were just describing as ideal guardians.

And what is the name which the city derives from the possession of this sort of knowledge?

And what is the name that the city gets from having this kind of knowledge?

The name of good in counsel and truly wise.

The name of someone who is wise in advice and genuinely knowledgeable.

And will there be in our city more of these true guardians or more smiths?

And will there be more true guardians in our city or more blacksmiths?

The smiths, he replied, will be far more numerous.

The blacksmiths, he replied, will be many more.

Will not the guardians be the smallest of all the classes who receive a name from the profession of some kind of knowledge?

Will the guardians really be the smallest of all the groups that get a name based on their expertise in some kind of knowledge?

Much the smallest.

Much the tiniest.

And so by reason of the smallest part or class, and of the knowledge which resides in this presiding and ruling part of itself, the whole State, being thus constituted according to nature, will be wise; and this, which has the only knowledge worthy to be called wisdom, has been ordained by nature to be of all classes the least.

And so, because of the smallest part or category and the knowledge that exists in this leading and governing part of itself, the entire State, when formed according to nature, will be wise; and this part, which holds the only kind of knowledge that can truly be called wisdom, has been created by nature to be the smallest of all classes.

Most true.

So true.

Thus, then, I said, the nature and place in the State of one of the four virtues has somehow or other been discovered.

Thus, I said, the nature and role of one of the four virtues in the State has somehow been uncovered.

And, in my humble opinion, very satisfactorily discovered, he replied.

And, in my opinion, it was found very satisfactorily, he replied.

Again, I said, there is no difficulty in seeing the nature of courage, and in what part that quality resides which gives the name of courageous to the State.

Again, I said, it’s easy to understand what courage is and where that quality exists that makes a State courageous.

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

Why, I said, every one who calls any State courageous or cowardly, will be thinking of the part which fights and goes out to war on the State’s behalf.

Why, I said, everyone who describes any State as brave or timid will be considering the faction that fights and goes to war on the State’s behalf.

No one, he replied, would ever think of any other.

No one, he replied, would ever consider anyone else.

The rest of the citizens may be courageous or may be cowardly, but their courage or cowardice will not, as I conceive, have the effect of making the city either the one or the other.

The other citizens might be brave or they could be fearful, but I believe their bravery or fearfulness won’t really change whether the city is one way or the other.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

The city will be courageous in virtue of a portion of herself which preserves under all circumstances that opinion about the nature of things to be feared and not to be feared in which our legislator educated them; and this is what you term courage.

The city will be brave because part of itself keeps, no matter the situation, the belief about what should be feared and what shouldn't, which our lawmakers taught them; and this is what you call courage.

I should like to hear what you are saying once more, for I do not think that I perfectly understand you.

I would like to hear what you're saying again because I don't think I completely understand you.

I mean that courage is a kind of salvation.

I believe that courage is a form of salvation.

Salvation of what?

Salvation for what?

Of the opinion respecting things to be feared, what they are and of what nature, which the law implants through education; and I mean by the words ‘under all circumstances’ to intimate that in pleasure or in pain, or under the influence of desire or fear, a man preserves, and does not lose this opinion. Shall I give you an illustration?

Of the view regarding things to be afraid of, what they are and what kind they are, which the law instills through education; and I mean by the phrase ‘under all circumstances’ to suggest that whether in pleasure or pain, or under the influence of desire or fear, a person maintains this view and does not lose it. Should I provide an example?

If you please.

If you don't mind.

You know, I said, that dyers, when they want to dye wool for making the true sea-purple, begin by selecting their white colour first; this they prepare and dress with much care and pains, in order that the white ground may take the purple hue in full perfection. The dyeing then proceeds; and whatever is dyed in this manner becomes a fast colour, and no washing either with lyes or without them can take away the bloom. But, when the ground has not been duly prepared, you will have noticed how poor is the look either of purple or of any other colour.

You know, I said, that dyers, when they want to dye wool for making the true sea-purple, start by choosing their white color first; they prepare and treat it with a lot of care and effort so that the white base can fully absorb the purple hue. The dyeing then continues, and anything dyed this way becomes a permanent color, and no washing, whether with lyes or not, can wash away the brightness. But when the base hasn’t been properly prepared, you’ll notice how dull the purple or any other color looks.

Yes, he said; I know that they have a washed-out and ridiculous appearance.

Yes, he said; I know that they look faded and silly.

Then now, I said, you will understand what our object was in selecting our soldiers, and educating them in music and gymnastic; we were contriving influences which would prepare them to take the dye of the laws in perfection, and the colour of their opinion about dangers and of every other opinion was to be indelibly fixed by their nurture and training, not to be washed away by such potent lyes as pleasure—mightier agent far in washing the soul than any soda or lye; or by sorrow, fear, and desire, the mightiest of all other solvents. And this sort of universal saving power of true opinion in conformity with law about real and false dangers I call and maintain to be courage, unless you disagree.

So now, I said, you'll understand why we chose our soldiers and trained them in music and physical exercise; we were creating influences to prepare them to fully embody the laws, and their views on dangers, along with all their other opinions, were meant to be permanently shaped by their upbringing and training, not easily washed away by strong illusions like pleasure—which is a much more powerful force for shaping the soul than any chemical solution; nor by grief, fear, or desire, which are the strongest of all influences. This kind of universal saving power of true belief in alignment with the law regarding real and false dangers is what I call courage, unless you disagree.

But I agree, he replied; for I suppose that you mean to exclude mere uninstructed courage, such as that of a wild beast or of a slave—this, in your opinion, is not the courage which the law ordains, and ought to have another name.

But I agree, he replied; I assume you mean to set aside just raw, untrained bravery, like that of a wild animal or a slave—this, in your view, isn't the kind of courage that the law promotes, and it should have a different name.

Most certainly.

For sure.

Then I may infer courage to be such as you describe?

Then can I assume that courage is just as you described?

Why, yes, said I, you may, and if you add the words ‘of a citizen,’ you will not be far wrong;—hereafter, if you like, we will carry the examination further, but at present we are seeking not for courage but justice; and for the purpose of our enquiry we have said enough.

Sure, I replied, you can, and if you include the phrase 'of a citizen,' you won't be mistaken; —in the future, if you'd like, we can delve deeper into the examination, but for now, we're looking for justice, not bravery; and for our investigation, we've said enough.

You are right, he replied.

You’re right, he replied.

Two virtues remain to be discovered in the State—first, temperance, and then justice which is the end of our search.

Two virtues still need to be uncovered in the State—first, moderation, and then fairness, which is the goal of our quest.

Very true.

So true.

Now, can we find justice without troubling ourselves about temperance?

Now, can we find justice without worrying about self-control?

I do not know how that can be accomplished, he said, nor do I desire that justice should be brought to light and temperance lost sight of; and therefore I wish that you would do me the favour of considering temperance first.

I don’t know how that can be done, he said, and I don’t want justice to overshadow temperance; so I kindly ask that you consider temperance first.

Certainly, I replied, I should not be justified in refusing your request.

Certainly, I replied, I wouldn't be justified in refusing your request.

Then consider, he said.

"Think about it," he said.

Yes, I replied; I will; and as far as I can at present see, the virtue of temperance has more of the nature of harmony and symphony than the preceding.

Yes, I replied; I will; and as far as I can currently see, the virtue of temperance is more about harmony and balance than the previous ones.

How so? he asked.

How's that? he asked.

Temperance, I replied, is the ordering or controlling of certain pleasures and desires; this is curiously enough implied in the saying of ‘a man being his own master;’ and other traces of the same notion may be found in language.

Temperance, I said, is about managing or controlling certain pleasures and desires; interestingly, this is hinted at in the phrase 'a man being his own master,' and you can find other hints of the same idea in language.

No doubt, he said.

No doubt, he said.

There is something ridiculous in the expression ‘master of himself;’ for the master is also the servant and the servant the master; and in all these modes of speaking the same person is denoted.

There’s something ridiculous about the phrase ‘master of himself’; because the master is also the servant and the servant is the master; and in all these ways of speaking, the same person is referred to.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

The meaning is, I believe, that in the human soul there is a better and also a worse principle; and when the better has the worse under control, then a man is said to be master of himself; and this is a term of praise: but when, owing to evil education or association, the better principle, which is also the smaller, is overwhelmed by the greater mass of the worse—in this case he is blamed and is called the slave of self and unprincipled.

The meaning is, I think, that in every person’s soul, there are both better and worse impulses. When the better impulse has control over the worse one, a person is considered to have self-mastery, which is a commendable quality. However, when someone’s negative influences, often due to bad upbringing or social circles, overpower the smaller, better impulse, that person is criticized and referred to as a slave to their own weaknesses and lacking principles.

Yes, there is reason in that.

Yep, that makes sense.

And now, I said, look at our newly-created State, and there you will find one of these two conditions realized; for the State, as you will acknowledge, may be justly called master of itself, if the words ‘temperance’ and ‘self-mastery’ truly express the rule of the better part over the worse.

And now, I said, look at our newly-created State, and there you will find one of these two conditions met; because the State, as you would agree, can rightly be called master of itself if the words ‘self-control’ and ‘self-discipline’ genuinely represent the rule of the better aspect over the worse.

Yes, he said, I see that what you say is true.

Yes, he said, I see that what you're saying is true.

Let me further note that the manifold and complex pleasures and desires and pains are generally found in children and women and servants, and in the freemen so called who are of the lowest and more numerous class.

Let me also point out that the many and complicated pleasures, desires, and pains are usually seen in children, women, and servants, as well as in the so-called freemen who belong to the lowest and most numerous class.

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

Whereas the simple and moderate desires which follow reason, and are under the guidance of mind and true opinion, are to be found only in a few, and those the best born and best educated.

While the straightforward and reasonable desires that align with logic and informed judgment are only seen in a select few, specifically those who are well-born and well-educated.

Very true.

So true.

These two, as you may perceive, have a place in our State; and the meaner desires of the many are held down by the virtuous desires and wisdom of the few.

These two, as you can see, have a role in our society; and the basic desires of the majority are kept in check by the noble aspirations and wisdom of the few.

That I perceive, he said.

I see that, he said.

Then if there be any city which may be described as master of its own pleasures and desires, and master of itself, ours may claim such a designation?

Then if there is any city that can be called the master of its own pleasures and desires, and in control of itself, ours can rightly claim that title?

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

It may also be called temperate, and for the same reasons?

It can also be called temperate, and for the same reasons?

Yes.

Yep.

And if there be any State in which rulers and subjects will be agreed as to the question who are to rule, that again will be our State?

And if there’s any state where rulers and subjects agree on who should be in charge, then that will be our state?

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

And the citizens being thus agreed among themselves, in which class will temperance be found—in the rulers or in the subjects?

And with the citizens in agreement, which group will show temperance—the rulers or the subjects?

In both, as I should imagine, he replied.

In both cases, I would think, he replied.

Do you observe that we were not far wrong in our guess that temperance was a sort of harmony?

Do you notice that we weren't too off in our assumption that temperance is a kind of balance?

Why so?

Why is that?

Why, because temperance is unlike courage and wisdom, each of which resides in a part only, the one making the State wise and the other valiant; not so temperance, which extends to the whole, and runs through all the notes of the scale, and produces a harmony of the weaker and the stronger and the middle class, whether you suppose them to be stronger or weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or wealth, or anything else. Most truly then may we deem temperance to be the agreement of the naturally superior and inferior, as to the right to rule of either, both in states and individuals.

Why? Because temperance is different from courage and wisdom, which each exist in only a part—one making the State wise and the other brave. But temperance is different; it encompasses everything, connecting all aspects and creating harmony among the weaker, the stronger, and the middle class, regardless of whether you see them as stronger or weaker in wisdom, power, numbers, wealth, or anything else. Therefore, we can truly consider temperance to be the agreement between those who are naturally superior and inferior regarding the right to govern, both in states and individuals.

I entirely agree with you.

I totally agree with you.

And so, I said, we may consider three out of the four virtues to have been discovered in our State. The last of those qualities which make a state virtuous must be justice, if we only knew what that was.

And so, I said, we can say that three out of the four virtues have been found in our State. The last quality that makes a state virtuous must be justice, if only we knew what that actually meant.

The inference is obvious.

The conclusion is clear.

The time then has arrived, Glaucon, when, like huntsmen, we should surround the cover, and look sharp that justice does not steal away, and pass out of sight and escape us; for beyond a doubt she is somewhere in this country: watch therefore and strive to catch a sight of her, and if you see her first, let me know.

The time has come, Glaucon, when we need to act like hunters, getting ready to surround our target and staying alert so that justice doesn’t slip away and disappear on us; because she’s definitely somewhere in this land. So, keep an eye out and try to catch a glimpse of her, and if you spot her first, let me know.

Would that I could! but you should regard me rather as a follower who has just eyes enough to see what you show him—that is about as much as I am good for.

If only I could! But you should see me more as a follower who just has enough sight to see what you show him—that's about all I'm good for.

Offer up a prayer with me and follow.

Offer a prayer with me and let's follow.

I will, but you must show me the way.

I will, but you need to guide me.

Here is no path, I said, and the wood is dark and perplexing; still we must push on.

There’s no path here, I said, and the woods are dark and confusing; still, we have to keep going.

Let us push on.

Let's keep moving forward.

Here I saw something: Halloo! I said, I begin to perceive a track, and I believe that the quarry will not escape.

Here I saw something: Hey! I said, I’m starting to see a trail, and I think the target won’t get away.

Good news, he said.

Great news, he said.

Truly, I said, we are stupid fellows.

Truly, I said, we are foolish people.

Why so?

Why’s that?

Why, my good sir, at the beginning of our enquiry, ages ago, there was justice tumbling out at our feet, and we never saw her; nothing could be more ridiculous. Like people who go about looking for what they have in their hands—that was the way with us—we looked not at what we were seeking, but at what was far off in the distance; and therefore, I suppose, we missed her.

Why, my good sir, at the start of our inquiry, long ago, justice was right at our feet, and we didn’t even notice; nothing could be more absurd. Like people who search for what they already have in their hands—that’s how we were—we didn’t focus on what we were actually looking for, but instead looked far off into the distance; and so, I guess, we missed her.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean to say that in reality for a long time past we have been talking of justice, and have failed to recognise her.

I want to say that for a long time now, we've been discussing justice, but have failed to see her.

I grow impatient at the length of your exordium.

I’m getting impatient with how long your introduction is.

Well then, tell me, I said, whether I am right or not: You remember the original principle which we were always laying down at the foundation of the State, that one man should practise one thing only, the thing to which his nature was best adapted;—now justice is this principle or a part of it.

Well then, tell me, I said, whether I'm right or not: You remember the fundamental idea we always agreed on about the foundation of the State, that each person should focus on just one thing, the one they are best suited for;—now justice is this idea or part of it.

Yes, we often said that one man should do one thing only.

Yes, we often said that one person should focus on just one thing.

Further, we affirmed that justice was doing one’s own business, and not being a busybody; we said so again and again, and many others have said the same to us.

Furthermore, we confirmed that justice means focusing on your own responsibilities and not meddling in others' affairs; we repeated this multiple times, and many others have echoed the same sentiment to us.

Yes, we said so.

Yep, we said that.

Then to do one’s own business in a certain way may be assumed to be justice. Can you tell me whence I derive this inference?

Then conducting one’s own affairs in a certain manner can be seen as justice. Can you explain where I got this idea from?

I cannot, but I should like to be told.

I can’t, but I would like to be informed.

Because I think that this is the only virtue which remains in the State when the other virtues of temperance and courage and wisdom are abstracted; and, that this is the ultimate cause and condition of the existence of all of them, and while remaining in them is also their preservative; and we were saying that if the three were discovered by us, justice would be the fourth or remaining one.

Because I believe this is the only virtue that remains in the State when we take away the other virtues of temperance, courage, and wisdom; and that this is the ultimate reason and condition for the existence of all of them. While this virtue also stays in them, it is their means of preservation. We were saying that if we discovered the three, justice would be the fourth or remaining one.

That follows of necessity.

That follows necessarily.

If we are asked to determine which of these four qualities by its presence contributes most to the excellence of the State, whether the agreement of rulers and subjects, or the preservation in the soldiers of the opinion which the law ordains about the true nature of dangers, or wisdom and watchfulness in the rulers, or whether this other which I am mentioning, and which is found in children and women, slave and freeman, artisan, ruler, subject,—the quality, I mean, of every one doing his own work, and not being a busybody, would claim the palm—the question is not so easily answered.

If we're asked to figure out which of these four qualities most contributes to the greatness of the State—whether it's the harmony between rulers and subjects, the soldiers' understanding of what the law says about real dangers, the wisdom and vigilance of the rulers, or this other quality I'm mentioning, which can be found in children, women, slaves, free people, workers, rulers, and subjects—the quality of everyone doing their own job without interfering in others' business—then it's not an easy question to answer.

Certainly, he replied, there would be a difficulty in saying which.

Certainly, he replied, there would be a challenge in deciding which.

Then the power of each individual in the State to do his own work appears to compete with the other political virtues, wisdom, temperance, courage.

Then the ability of each person in the State to do their own work seems to compete with other political virtues like wisdom, self-control, and bravery.

Yes, he said.

Yeah, he said.

And the virtue which enters into this competition is justice?

And the quality that plays a role in this competition is justice?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Let us look at the question from another point of view: Are not the rulers in a State those to whom you would entrust the office of determining suits at law?

Let’s consider the question from a different angle: Aren't the leaders in a State the ones you would trust to handle legal disputes?

Certainly.

Of course.

And are suits decided on any other ground but that a man may neither take what is another’s, nor be deprived of what is his own?

And are lawsuits decided on any grounds other than the idea that a person should neither take what belongs to someone else nor be deprived of what is rightfully theirs?

Yes; that is their principle.

Yes, that's their principle.

Which is a just principle?

What is a fair principle?

Yes.

Yes.

Then on this view also justice will be admitted to be the having and doing what is a man’s own, and belongs to him?

Then in this view, justice will be recognized as having and doing what belongs to a person and is rightfully theirs.

Very true.

So true.

Think, now, and say whether you agree with me or not. Suppose a carpenter to be doing the business of a cobbler, or a cobbler of a carpenter; and suppose them to exchange their implements or their duties, or the same person to be doing the work of both, or whatever be the change; do you think that any great harm would result to the State?

Think about it and let me know if you agree with me or not. Imagine a carpenter doing the job of a cobbler, or a cobbler working as a carpenter; and imagine them swapping their tools or their tasks, or even one person doing both jobs, or whatever the change might be; do you think that any significant harm would come to society?

Not much.

Not a lot.

But when the cobbler or any other man whom nature designed to be a trader, having his heart lifted up by wealth or strength or the number of his followers, or any like advantage, attempts to force his way into the class of warriors, or a warrior into that of legislators and guardians, for which he is unfitted, and either to take the implements or the duties of the other; or when one man is trader, legislator, and warrior all in one, then I think you will agree with me in saying that this interchange and this meddling of one with another is the ruin of the State.

But when a cobbler or anyone else meant to be a trader, feeling elevated by wealth, strength, the number of followers, or similar advantages, tries to push into the warrior class, or a warrior tries to become a legislator or guardian, roles for which they are unsuited, and either takes on the tools or responsibilities of the other; or when one person is a trader, legislator, and warrior all at once, then I think you'll agree with me that this mixing and meddling among roles is the downfall of the State.

Most true.

Very true.

Seeing then, I said, that there are three distinct classes, any meddling of one with another, or the change of one into another, is the greatest harm to the State, and may be most justly termed evil-doing?

Seeing then, I said, that there are three distinct classes, any interference between them or the change of one into another is the greatest harm to the State, and can most justly be called wrongdoing?

Precisely.

Exactly.

And the greatest degree of evil-doing to one’s own city would be termed by you injustice?

And the worst thing you can do to your own city would be called injustice by you?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

This then is injustice; and on the other hand when the trader, the auxiliary, and the guardian each do their own business, that is justice, and will make the city just.

This is injustice; on the other hand, when the trader, the helper, and the guardian each handle their own tasks, that is justice, and it will make the city just.

I agree with you.

I’m with you.

We will not, I said, be over-positive as yet; but if, on trial, this conception of justice be verified in the individual as well as in the State, there will be no longer any room for doubt; if it be not verified, we must have a fresh enquiry. First let us complete the old investigation, which we began, as you remember, under the impression that, if we could previously examine justice on the larger scale, there would be less difficulty in discerning her in the individual. That larger example appeared to be the State, and accordingly we constructed as good a one as we could, knowing well that in the good State justice would be found. Let the discovery which we made be now applied to the individual—if they agree, we shall be satisfied; or, if there be a difference in the individual, we will come back to the State and have another trial of the theory. The friction of the two when rubbed together may possibly strike a light in which justice will shine forth, and the vision which is then revealed we will fix in our souls.

We won’t jump to conclusions just yet, I said, but if this idea of justice holds true both in individuals and in the State, there will be no more doubts; if it doesn’t hold up, we’ll need to start a new investigation. First, let’s finish the previous exploration we started, as you might remember, under the assumption that if we could look at justice on a larger scale, it would be easier to see it in individuals. That larger example seemed to be the State, so we built the best one we could, knowing that justice should exist in a good State. Now let’s take what we discovered and apply it to individuals—if they match up, we’ll be happy; if there’s a difference in individuals, we’ll return to the State and test the theory again. The friction between the two might just create a spark where justice will become clear, and we’ll hold onto that vision in our hearts.

That will be in regular course; let us do as you say.

That will happen as usual; let's do what you suggest.

I proceeded to ask: When two things, a greater and less, are called by the same name, are they like or unlike in so far as they are called the same?

I went ahead and asked: When two things, one bigger and one smaller, are called by the same name, are they similar or different just because they share that name?

Like, he replied.

He replied.

The just man then, if we regard the idea of justice only, will be like the just State?

The just person, then, if we consider the concept of justice alone, will be like the just State?

He will.

He'll.

And a State was thought by us to be just when the three classes in the State severally did their own business; and also thought to be temperate and valiant and wise by reason of certain other affections and qualities of these same classes?

And we believed a State was just when the three classes in the State each took care of their own responsibilities; and it was also considered temperate, brave, and wise because of certain other traits and qualities of these same classes?

True, he said.

True, he said.

And so of the individual; we may assume that he has the same three principles in his own soul which are found in the State; and he may be rightly described in the same terms, because he is affected in the same manner?

And so for the individual; we can assume that he has the same three principles in his own soul that are found in the State, and he can be accurately described in the same terms because he is influenced in the same way?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

Once more then, O my friend, we have alighted upon an easy question—whether the soul has these three principles or not?

Once again, my friend, we've come across a simple question—does the soul have these three principles or not?

An easy question! Nay, rather, Socrates, the proverb holds that hard is the good.

An easy question! No, rather, Socrates, the saying goes that hard is the good.

Very true, I said; and I do not think that the method which we are employing is at all adequate to the accurate solution of this question; the true method is another and a longer one. Still we may arrive at a solution not below the level of the previous enquiry.

Very true, I said; and I don’t think that the method we’re using is sufficient to accurately solve this question; the right method is different and more lengthy. Still, we might reach a solution that isn’t below the standard of the previous inquiry.

May we not be satisfied with that? he said;—under the circumstances, I am quite content.

"Isn't that enough for us?" he said; "given the situation, I'm actually pretty satisfied."

I too, I replied, shall be extremely well satisfied.

I replied, I'll be very happy with that.

Then faint not in pursuing the speculation, he said.

Then don't hesitate in pursuing the idea, he said.

Must we not acknowledge, I said, that in each of us there are the same principles and habits which there are in the State; and that from the individual they pass into the State?—how else can they come there? Take the quality of passion or spirit;—it would be ridiculous to imagine that this quality, when found in States, is not derived from the individuals who are supposed to possess it, e.g. the Thracians, Scythians, and in general the northern nations; and the same may be said of the love of knowledge, which is the special characteristic of our part of the world, or of the love of money, which may, with equal truth, be attributed to the Phoenicians and Egyptians.

Must we not recognize, I said, that each of us has the same principles and habits that exist in the State, and that these traits pass from individuals into the State? How else could they get there? Take the quality of passion or spirit; it would be silly to think that this quality, when seen in States, does not come from the individuals who are believed to have it, like the Thracians, Scythians, and generally the northern nations. The same goes for the love of knowledge, which is a defining trait of our part of the world, or the love of money, which can justifiably be linked to the Phoenicians and Egyptians.

Exactly so, he said.

Absolutely, he said.

There is no difficulty in understanding this.

There’s nothing difficult about understanding this.

None whatever.

None at all.

But the question is not quite so easy when we proceed to ask whether these principles are three or one; whether, that is to say, we learn with one part of our nature, are angry with another, and with a third part desire the satisfaction of our natural appetites; or whether the whole soul comes into play in each sort of action—to determine that is the difficulty.

But the question gets a bit tricky when we try to figure out whether these principles are three or one; in other words, do we learn with one part of ourselves, get angry with another, and with a third part seek to satisfy our natural desires? Or does the whole soul engage in each type of action? That’s the challenge.

Yes, he said; there lies the difficulty.

Yes, he said; that's where the problem is.

Then let us now try and determine whether they are the same or different.

Then let's try to figure out if they are the same or different.

How can we? he asked.

How can we? he asked.

I replied as follows: The same thing clearly cannot act or be acted upon in the same part or in relation to the same thing at the same time, in contrary ways; and therefore whenever this contradiction occurs in things apparently the same, we know that they are really not the same, but different.

I responded like this: The same thing clearly can't act or be acted upon in the same way or in relation to the same thing at the same time in opposing ways; so whenever this contradiction happens in things that seem the same, we understand that they are actually not the same, but different.

Good.

Good.

For example, I said, can the same thing be at rest and in motion at the same time in the same part?

For example, I said, can something be at rest and in motion at the same time in the same place?

Impossible.

No way.

Still, I said, let us have a more precise statement of terms, lest we should hereafter fall out by the way. Imagine the case of a man who is standing and also moving his hands and his head, and suppose a person to say that one and the same person is in motion and at rest at the same moment—to such a mode of speech we should object, and should rather say that one part of him is in motion while another is at rest.

Still, I said, let's clarify our terms so we don't end up arguing later. Picture a man who is standing still but is also moving his hands and head. If someone claims that this one person is both in motion and at rest at the same time, we'd take issue with that. We would instead say that one part of him is moving while another part is not.

Very true.

So true.

And suppose the objector to refine still further, and to draw the nice distinction that not only parts of tops, but whole tops, when they spin round with their pegs fixed on the spot, are at rest and in motion at the same time (and he may say the same of anything which revolves in the same spot), his objection would not be admitted by us, because in such cases things are not at rest and in motion in the same parts of themselves; we should rather say that they have both an axis and a circumference, and that the axis stands still, for there is no deviation from the perpendicular; and that the circumference goes round. But if, while revolving, the axis inclines either to the right or left, forwards or backwards, then in no point of view can they be at rest.

And imagine if the objector wanted to refine that idea even more and pointed out that not just parts of tops, but entire tops, when they spin with their pegs fixed in place, are both at rest and in motion at the same time (and he could say the same about anything that rotates in the same spot). We wouldn't accept his objection because, in those cases, things aren't at rest and in motion in the same parts of themselves; we'd say instead that they have both a center and an outer edge, and that the center remains still, as there's no tilt from the vertical; while the outer edge moves around. But if, during the spinning, the center tilts either to the right or left, or forward or backward, then they can't be considered at rest from any perspective.

That is the correct mode of describing them, he replied.

That's the right way to describe them, he replied.

Then none of these objections will confuse us, or incline us to believe that the same thing at the same time, in the same part or in relation to the same thing, can act or be acted upon in contrary ways.

Then none of these objections will confuse us or lead us to believe that the same thing, at the same time, in the same place, or in relation to the same thing, can act or be acted upon in opposite ways.

Certainly not, according to my way of thinking.

Definitely not, in my view.

Yet, I said, that we may not be compelled to examine all such objections, and prove at length that they are untrue, let us assume their absurdity, and go forward on the understanding that hereafter, if this assumption turn out to be untrue, all the consequences which follow shall be withdrawn.

Yet, I said, so we don't have to go through all these objections and prove in detail that they're false, let's assume they're ridiculous and move on with the understanding that if this assumption ends up being incorrect, all the consequences that follow will be taken back.

Yes, he said, that will be the best way.

Yes, he said, that will be the best way.

Well, I said, would you not allow that assent and dissent, desire and aversion, attraction and repulsion, are all of them opposites, whether they are regarded as active or passive (for that makes no difference in the fact of their opposition)?

Well, I said, wouldn't you agree that agreement and disagreement, wanting and not wanting, attraction and dislike, are all opposites, whether we see them as active or passive (because that doesn't change the fact that they're opposite)?

Yes, he said, they are opposites.

Yes, he said, they are opposites.

Well, I said, and hunger and thirst, and the desires in general, and again willing and wishing,—all these you would refer to the classes already mentioned. You would say—would you not?—that the soul of him who desires is seeking after the object of his desire; or that he is drawing to himself the thing which he wishes to possess: or again, when a person wants anything to be given him, his mind, longing for the realization of his desire, intimates his wish to have it by a nod of assent, as if he had been asked a question?

Well, I said, hunger and thirst, and desires in general, along with the act of wanting and wishing—all of these would fall into the categories we already talked about. You would agree, wouldn’t you? That a person's soul who desires is searching for what they want; or that they are trying to pull towards themselves what they wish to have. Similarly, when someone wants something to be given to them, their mind, yearning for their desire to be fulfilled, signals their wish to have it with a nod, almost as if they were responding to a question?

Very true.

So true.

And what would you say of unwillingness and dislike and the absence of desire; should not these be referred to the opposite class of repulsion and rejection?

And what would you say about unwillingness, dislike, and lack of desire? Shouldn't these be associated with the opposite category of repulsion and rejection?

Certainly.

Sure.

Admitting this to be true of desire generally, let us suppose a particular class of desires, and out of these we will select hunger and thirst, as they are termed, which are the most obvious of them?

Admitting that this is true for desire in general, let's consider a specific category of desires, and from these, we will choose hunger and thirst, as they are commonly called, since they are the most evident of all.

Let us take that class, he said.

Let’s take that class, he said.

The object of one is food, and of the other drink?

The purpose of one is food, and the other is drink?

Yes.

Yes.

And here comes the point: is not thirst the desire which the soul has of drink, and of drink only; not of drink qualified by anything else; for example, warm or cold, or much or little, or, in a word, drink of any particular sort: but if the thirst be accompanied by heat, then the desire is of cold drink; or, if accompanied by cold, then of warm drink; or, if the thirst be excessive, then the drink which is desired will be excessive; or, if not great, the quantity of drink will also be small: but thirst pure and simple will desire drink pure and simple, which is the natural satisfaction of thirst, as food is of hunger?

And here’s the main point: isn’t thirst just the soul’s need for a drink, and nothing else? Not a drink that’s warm or cold, a lot or a little, or any specific type of drink. But if thirst comes with heat, then the craving is for something cold to drink; if it comes with cold, then the craving is for something warm. If the thirst is intense, then the desired drink will be abundant; if it’s not so intense, then the amount of drink will be small. But pure and simple thirst seeks just a plain drink, which naturally satisfies thirst, just like food satisfies hunger?

Yes, he said; the simple desire is, as you say, in every case of the simple object, and the qualified desire of the qualified object.

Yes, he said; the basic desire is, as you mentioned, present in every instance of the simple object, and the specific desire of the specific object.

But here a confusion may arise; and I should wish to guard against an opponent starting up and saying that no man desires drink only, but good drink, or food only, but good food; for good is the universal object of desire, and thirst being a desire, will necessarily be thirst after good drink; and the same is true of every other desire.

But a confusion might come up here; and I want to make sure to prevent someone from claiming that no one desires just any drink, but only good drinks, or food just for the sake of food, but rather good food; because good is the universal thing that everyone desires, and thirst being a desire means it will always be for good drink; and the same applies to every other desire.

Yes, he replied, the opponent might have something to say.

Yes, he replied, the opponent might have something to add.

Nevertheless I should still maintain, that of relatives some have a quality attached to either term of the relation; others are simple and have their correlatives simple.

Nevertheless, I still believe that some relatives have a quality related to either side of the relationship; others are straightforward and have their counterparts straightforward as well.

I do not know what you mean.

I don't understand what you mean.

Well, you know of course that the greater is relative to the less?

Well, you know that more is relative to less, right?

Certainly.

Sure.

And the much greater to the much less?

And the much greater to the much lesser?

Yes.

Yes.

And the sometime greater to the sometime less, and the greater that is to be to the less that is to be?

And sometimes the greater is less, and the greater that is to be is less than the lesser that is to be?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And so of more and less, and of other correlative terms, such as the double and the half, or again, the heavier and the lighter, the swifter and the slower; and of hot and cold, and of any other relatives;—is not this true of all of them?

And so regarding more and less, and other related terms, like double and half, or heavier and lighter, swifter and slower; and hot and cold, and any other relatives—isn't this true for all of them?

Yes.

Yes.

And does not the same principle hold in the sciences? The object of science is knowledge (assuming that to be the true definition), but the object of a particular science is a particular kind of knowledge; I mean, for example, that the science of house-building is a kind of knowledge which is defined and distinguished from other kinds and is therefore termed architecture.

And doesn’t the same principle apply in the sciences? The goal of science is knowledge (assuming that’s the right definition), but the goal of a specific science is a specific kind of knowledge; for instance, the science of house-building is a type of knowledge that is defined and separated from other kinds, and is therefore called architecture.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Because it has a particular quality which no other has?

Because it has a unique quality that nothing else has?

Yes.

Yes.

And it has this particular quality because it has an object of a particular kind; and this is true of the other arts and sciences?

And it has this specific quality because it involves a certain type of object; and the same applies to other arts and sciences?

Yes.

Yes.

Now, then, if I have made myself clear, you will understand my original meaning in what I said about relatives. My meaning was, that if one term of a relation is taken alone, the other is taken alone; if one term is qualified, the other is also qualified. I do not mean to say that relatives may not be disparate, or that the science of health is healthy, or of disease necessarily diseased, or that the sciences of good and evil are therefore good and evil; but only that, when the term science is no longer used absolutely, but has a qualified object which in this case is the nature of health and disease, it becomes defined, and is hence called not merely science, but the science of medicine.

If I've been clear, you should understand what I originally meant regarding relatives. What I meant is that if you consider one part of a relationship on its own, the other part is also considered in isolation; if one part is described in a certain way, the other is too. I’m not saying that relatives can’t be different, or that the study of health is necessarily healthy, or that the study of disease is automatically diseased, or that the studies of good and evil are inherently good or evil. I’m simply stating that when the term "science" isn’t used in a general sense anymore, but instead refers to a specific topic—like the nature of health and disease—it becomes more defined and is called not just science, but the science of medicine.

I quite understand, and I think as you do.

I completely understand, and I think the same way you do.

Would you not say that thirst is one of these essentially relative terms, having clearly a relation—

Wouldn't you agree that thirst is one of those terms that are fundamentally relative, clearly having a connection—

Yes, thirst is relative to drink.

Yes, thirst depends on what you drink.

And a certain kind of thirst is relative to a certain kind of drink; but thirst taken alone is neither of much nor little, nor of good nor bad, nor of any particular kind of drink, but of drink only?

And a certain type of thirst relates to a certain type of drink; however, thirst by itself isn’t really much of anything—neither good nor bad, neither large nor small, nor tied to any specific kind of drink, just to drink in general?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then the soul of the thirsty one, in so far as he is thirsty, desires only drink; for this he yearns and tries to obtain it?

Then the soul of the thirsty person, as long as they are thirsty, desires only something to drink; for this, they long and strive to get it.

That is plain.

That's simple.

And if you suppose something which pulls a thirsty soul away from drink, that must be different from the thirsty principle which draws him like a beast to drink; for, as we were saying, the same thing cannot at the same time with the same part of itself act in contrary ways about the same.

And if you think of something that pulls a thirsty person away from getting a drink, that has to be different from the thirst that drives them like an animal to drink; because, as we were saying, the same thing can't act in opposite ways at the same time on the same part of itself.

Impossible.

Not happening.

No more than you can say that the hands of the archer push and pull the bow at the same time, but what you say is that one hand pushes and the other pulls.

No more than you can say that the archer's hands push and pull the bow at the same time, but what you really mean is that one hand pushes and the other pulls.

Exactly so, he replied.

Absolutely, he replied.

And might a man be thirsty, and yet unwilling to drink?

And can a man be thirsty and still not want to drink?

Yes, he said, it constantly happens.

Yes, he said, it always happens.

And in such a case what is one to say? Would you not say that there was something in the soul bidding a man to drink, and something else forbidding him, which is other and stronger than the principle which bids him?

And in a situation like that, what can you say? Wouldn't you agree that there's something in the soul encouraging a person to drink, and something else stopping him, which is different and stronger than the urge to drink?

I should say so.

I should say that.

And the forbidding principle is derived from reason, and that which bids and attracts proceeds from passion and disease?

And the harsh principle comes from reason, while that which orders and draws us in comes from emotion and sickness?

Clearly.

Clearly.

Then we may fairly assume that they are two, and that they differ from one another; the one with which a man reasons, we may call the rational principle of the soul, the other, with which he loves and hungers and thirsts and feels the flutterings of any other desire, may be termed the irrational or appetitive, the ally of sundry pleasures and satisfactions?

Then we can reasonably assume that there are two aspects, and that they are different from each other; the one that a person uses to think can be called the rational part of the soul, while the other, with which they love and crave and feel the stirrings of various desires, can be called the irrational or appetitive part, the companion of various pleasures and satisfactions?

Yes, he said, we may fairly assume them to be different.

Yes, he said, we can reasonably assume they are different.

Then let us finally determine that there are two principles existing in the soul. And what of passion, or spirit? Is it a third, or akin to one of the preceding?

Then let's finally decide that there are two principles in the soul. What about passion or spirit? Is it a third principle, or is it similar to one of the two mentioned earlier?

I should be inclined to say—akin to desire.

I’d say—similar to craving.

Well, I said, there is a story which I remember to have heard, and in which I put faith. The story is, that Leontius, the son of Aglaion, coming up one day from the Piraeus, under the north wall on the outside, observed some dead bodies lying on the ground at the place of execution. He felt a desire to see them, and also a dread and abhorrence of them; for a time he struggled and covered his eyes, but at length the desire got the better of him; and forcing them open, he ran up to the dead bodies, saying, Look, ye wretches, take your fill of the fair sight.

Well, I said, there's a story I remember hearing, and I believe it. The story goes that Leontius, the son of Aglaion, was coming up one day from the Piraeus and saw some dead bodies lying on the ground at the execution site, just outside the north wall. He felt both a desire to look at them and a fear and revulsion towards them. For a while, he struggled and covered his eyes, but eventually, his desire won out. He forced his eyes open and ran up to the dead bodies, saying, "Look, you poor souls, take your fill of the sight."

I have heard the story myself, he said.

I’ve heard the story myself, he said.

The moral of the tale is, that anger at times goes to war with desire, as though they were two distinct things.

The moral of the story is that anger sometimes battles with desire, as if they were two separate entities.

Yes; that is the meaning, he said.

Yes, that's what it means, he said.

And are there not many other cases in which we observe that when a man’s desires violently prevail over his reason, he reviles himself, and is angry at the violence within him, and that in this struggle, which is like the struggle of factions in a State, his spirit is on the side of his reason;—but for the passionate or spirited element to take part with the desires when reason decides that she should not be opposed, is a sort of thing which I believe that you never observed occurring in yourself, nor, as I should imagine, in any one else?

Aren't there many situations where we see that when a person's desires overpower their reasoning, they end up hating themselves and feeling frustrated by the internal conflict? In this battle, which is similar to conflicts between factions in a state, their spirit aligns with their reason. But for the passionate or spirited part of a person to side with their desires, despite reason saying it shouldn’t, is something I believe you've never noticed happening in yourself, nor have I imagined it happening to anyone else?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Suppose that a man thinks he has done a wrong to another, the nobler he is the less able is he to feel indignant at any suffering, such as hunger, or cold, or any other pain which the injured person may inflict upon him—these he deems to be just, and, as I say, his anger refuses to be excited by them.

Suppose a man believes he has wronged someone else; the nobler he is, the less capable he is of feeling angry about any suffering, like hunger, cold, or any other pain the hurt person might cause him—he sees these as deserved, and, as I said, he can't get angry about them.

True, he said.

Sure, he said.

But when he thinks that he is the sufferer of the wrong, then he boils and chafes, and is on the side of what he believes to be justice; and because he suffers hunger or cold or other pain he is only the more determined to persevere and conquer. His noble spirit will not be quelled until he either slays or is slain; or until he hears the voice of the shepherd, that is, reason, bidding his dog bark no more.

But when he believes he's the one being wronged, he gets really angry and frustrated, siding with what he thinks is justice; and because he endures hunger, cold, or other suffering, he becomes even more determined to keep going and win. His strong spirit won't be silenced until he either defeats his opponent or is defeated; or until he hears the voice of reason, like a shepherd, telling his dog to stop barking.

The illustration is perfect, he replied; and in our State, as we were saying, the auxiliaries were to be dogs, and to hear the voice of the rulers, who are their shepherds.

The illustration is perfect, he replied; and in our State, as we were saying, the helpers were to be dogs, and they should listen to the voice of the rulers, who are their shepherds.

I perceive, I said, that you quite understand me; there is, however, a further point which I wish you to consider.

I see, I said, that you really get me; however, there's one more thing I'd like you to think about.

What point?

What’s the point?

You remember that passion or spirit appeared at first sight to be a kind of desire, but now we should say quite the contrary; for in the conflict of the soul spirit is arrayed on the side of the rational principle.

You remember that passion or spirit initially seemed like a type of desire, but now we would say the opposite; in the struggle of the soul, spirit aligns itself with reason.

Most assuredly.

Absolutely.

But a further question arises: Is passion different from reason also, or only a kind of reason; in which latter case, instead of three principles in the soul, there will only be two, the rational and the concupiscent; or rather, as the State was composed of three classes, traders, auxiliaries, counsellors, so may there not be in the individual soul a third element which is passion or spirit, and when not corrupted by bad education is the natural auxiliary of reason?

But another question comes up: Is passion different from reason, or is it just a type of reason? In that case, instead of having three principles in the soul, there would only be two: the rational and the appetitive. Or, just as the State has three classes—traders, auxiliaries, and counselors—could there also be a third element in the individual soul, which is passion or spirit, and when not corrupted by poor education, serves as the natural support for reason?

Yes, he said, there must be a third.

Yes, he said, there has to be a third.

Yes, I replied, if passion, which has already been shown to be different from desire, turn out also to be different from reason.

Yes, I replied, if passion, which has already been shown to be different from desire, turns out to also be different from reason.

But that is easily proved:—We may observe even in young children that they are full of spirit almost as soon as they are born, whereas some of them never seem to attain to the use of reason, and most of them late enough.

But that's easy to prove:—We can see even in young children that they are full of energy almost as soon as they are born, while some of them never seem to develop the ability to reason, and most take a long time to do so.

Excellent, I said, and you may see passion equally in brute animals, which is a further proof of the truth of what you are saying. And we may once more appeal to the words of Homer, which have been already quoted by us,

Excellent, I said, and you can see the same passion in wild animals, which further proves the truth of what you're saying. And we can turn again to the words of Homer, which we have already quoted,

‘He smote his breast, and thus rebuked his soul,’

‘He struck his chest and scolded his soul,’

for in this verse Homer has clearly supposed the power which reasons about the better and worse to be different from the unreasoning anger which is rebuked by it.

for in this verse Homer has clearly suggested that the reasoning part that distinguishes between better and worse is different from the unthinking anger that it chastises.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And so, after much tossing, we have reached land, and are fairly agreed that the same principles which exist in the State exist also in the individual, and that they are three in number.

And so, after a lot of uncertainty, we have arrived on land, and we generally agree that the same principles that exist in the State also exist in the individual, and that there are three of them.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Must we not then infer that the individual is wise in the same way, and in virtue of the same quality which makes the State wise?

Must we not then conclude that a person is wise in the same way and because of the same quality that makes the State wise?

Certainly.

Of course.

Also that the same quality which constitutes courage in the State constitutes courage in the individual, and that both the State and the individual bear the same relation to all the other virtues?

Also that the same quality that defines courage in the State defines courage in the individual, and that both the State and the individual share the same connection to all the other virtues?

Assuredly.

Sure.

And the individual will be acknowledged by us to be just in the same way in which the State is just?

And will we recognize the individual as just in the same way we recognize the State as just?

That follows, of course.

That makes sense, of course.

We cannot but remember that the justice of the State consisted in each of the three classes doing the work of its own class?

We can't help but remember that the state's justice depended on each of the three classes doing the work specific to their own class.

We are not very likely to have forgotten, he said.

We probably haven't forgotten, he said.

We must recollect that the individual in whom the several qualities of his nature do their own work will be just, and will do his own work?

We need to remember that a person who lets the different aspects of their nature do their thing will be fair and will handle their responsibilities.

Yes, he said, we must remember that too.

Yes, he said, we need to remember that too.

And ought not the rational principle, which is wise, and has the care of the whole soul, to rule, and the passionate or spirited principle to be the subject and ally?

And shouldn't the rational part, which is wise and looks after the whole soul, be in charge, with the passionate or spirited part as its subject and ally?

Certainly.

Sure.

And, as we were saying, the united influence of music and gymnastic will bring them into accord, nerving and sustaining the reason with noble words and lessons, and moderating and soothing and civilizing the wildness of passion by harmony and rhythm?

And, as we were saying, the combined impact of music and exercise will bring them into harmony, strengthening and supporting reason with inspiring words and lessons, while calming and refining the intense emotions through melody and rhythm?

Quite true, he said.

So true, he said.

And these two, thus nurtured and educated, and having learned truly to know their own functions, will rule over the concupiscent, which in each of us is the largest part of the soul and by nature most insatiable of gain; over this they will keep guard, lest, waxing great and strong with the fulness of bodily pleasures, as they are termed, the concupiscent soul, no longer confined to her own sphere, should attempt to enslave and rule those who are not her natural-born subjects, and overturn the whole life of man?

And these two, trained and educated this way, having genuinely learned their own roles, will oversee the desires within us, which is the largest part of the soul and naturally the most insatiable for pleasure; they will watch over this, so that, growing powerful and strong with the fullness of physical pleasures, as they are called, the desire-driven soul, no longer limited to its own domain, doesn't try to control and dominate those who aren't naturally its subjects, disrupting the entire human experience.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Both together will they not be the best defenders of the whole soul and the whole body against attacks from without; the one counselling, and the other fighting under his leader, and courageously executing his commands and counsels?

Both of them together will be the best defenders of the entire soul and body against outside attacks; one advising and the other fighting under his leadership, bravely following his commands and advice?

True.

True.

And he is to be deemed courageous whose spirit retains in pleasure and in pain the commands of reason about what he ought or ought not to fear?

And he is considered brave who, in both good times and bad, follows the guidance of reason about what he should or shouldn’t fear?

Right, he replied.

Okay, he replied.

And him we call wise who has in him that little part which rules, and which proclaims these commands; that part too being supposed to have a knowledge of what is for the interest of each of the three parts and of the whole?

And we consider someone wise who has within them that small part that governs and issues these commands; this part is also believed to understand what is in the best interest of each of the three parts and of the whole.

Assuredly.

Absolutely.

And would you not say that he is temperate who has these same elements in friendly harmony, in whom the one ruling principle of reason, and the two subject ones of spirit and desire are equally agreed that reason ought to rule, and do not rebel?

And wouldn't you say that someone is self-controlled if they have these same elements in friendly balance, where the one governing principle of reason and the two subordinate ones of spirit and desire all agree that reason should be in charge, and they don’t resist?

Certainly, he said, that is the true account of temperance whether in the State or individual.

Sure, he said, that's the real story about self-control, whether you're talking about the government or a person.

And surely, I said, we have explained again and again how and by virtue of what quality a man will be just.

And definitely, I said, we’ve explained over and over how and what qualities make a person just.

That is very certain.

That's definitely true.

And is justice dimmer in the individual, and is her form different, or is she the same which we found her to be in the State?

And is justice less clear in individuals, and does it take on a different shape, or is it the same as we discovered in the State?

There is no difference in my opinion, he said.

“There’s no difference, in my opinion,” he said.

Because, if any doubt is still lingering in our minds, a few commonplace instances will satisfy us of the truth of what I am saying.

Because, if we still have any doubts, a few common examples will confirm the truth of what I'm saying.

What sort of instances do you mean?

What kind of examples are you talking about?

If the case is put to us, must we not admit that the just State, or the man who is trained in the principles of such a State, will be less likely than the unjust to make away with a deposit of gold or silver? Would any one deny this?

If we're asked about this, shouldn't we agree that a just State, or a person who understands the principles of such a State, is less likely to steal a deposit of gold or silver than an unjust person? Would anyone argue against this?

No one, he replied.

No one, he said.

Will the just man or citizen ever be guilty of sacrilege or theft, or treachery either to his friends or to his country?

Will a just person or citizen ever commit sacrilege, theft, or betrayal against their friends or their country?

Never.

Never.

Neither will he ever break faith where there have been oaths or agreements?

He will never break his promises when there are oaths or agreements involved.

Impossible.

Not happening.

No one will be less likely to commit adultery, or to dishonour his father and mother, or to fail in his religious duties?

No one is less likely to cheat, disrespect their parents, or neglect their religious obligations?

No one.

Nobody.

And the reason is that each part of him is doing its own business, whether in ruling or being ruled?

And the reason is that each part of him is doing its own thing, whether leading or being led?

Exactly so.

Exactly.

Are you satisfied then that the quality which makes such men and such states is justice, or do you hope to discover some other?

Are you convinced that the quality that defines such people and such governments is justice, or do you expect to find something else?

Not I, indeed.

Not me, for sure.

Then our dream has been realized; and the suspicion which we entertained at the beginning of our work of construction, that some divine power must have conducted us to a primary form of justice, has now been verified?

Then our dream has come true; and the doubt we had at the start of our project, that some divine force must have guided us to a fundamental sense of justice, has now been confirmed?

Yes, certainly.

Of course.

And the division of labour which required the carpenter and the shoemaker and the rest of the citizens to be doing each his own business, and not another’s, was a shadow of justice, and for that reason it was of use?

And the division of labor that required the carpenter, the shoemaker, and the other citizens to each focus on their own trade and not meddle in someone else's was a reflection of justice, and for that reason, it was beneficial?

Clearly.

Definitely.

But in reality justice was such as we were describing, being concerned however, not with the outward man, but with the inward, which is the true self and concernment of man: for the just man does not permit the several elements within him to interfere with one another, or any of them to do the work of others,—he sets in order his own inner life, and is his own master and his own law, and at peace with himself; and when he has bound together the three principles within him, which may be compared to the higher, lower, and middle notes of the scale, and the intermediate intervals—when he has bound all these together, and is no longer many, but has become one entirely temperate and perfectly adjusted nature, then he proceeds to act, if he has to act, whether in a matter of property, or in the treatment of the body, or in some affair of politics or private business; always thinking and calling that which preserves and co-operates with this harmonious condition, just and good action, and the knowledge which presides over it, wisdom, and that which at any time impairs this condition, he will call unjust action, and the opinion which presides over it ignorance.

But in reality, justice is as we described, focusing not on the external person, but on the internal, which is the true self and main concern of a person. A just person doesn’t let the different parts within them interfere with one another, nor let any part take over the role of another— they organize their inner life, being their own master and law, and find peace within themselves. When they have united the three principles inside them, which can be likened to the higher, lower, and middle notes of a musical scale, along with the intervals in between—when all these aspects are connected and they no longer feel divided but have become a single, balanced, and well-adjusted being, then they take action if needed, whether it’s related to property, physical health, politics, or personal matters. They always think of what preserves and supports this harmonious state as just and good action, with the knowledge guiding it being wisdom; anything that disrupts this state, they label as unjust action, with the understanding behind it being ignorance.

You have said the exact truth, Socrates.

You’ve spoken the absolute truth, Socrates.

Very good; and if we were to affirm that we had discovered the just man and the just State, and the nature of justice in each of them, we should not be telling a falsehood?

Very well; and if we were to say that we had found the just person and the just society, along with the essence of justice in each, we wouldn't be lying, would we?

Most certainly not.

Definitely not.

May we say so, then?

Can we say that, then?

Let us say so.

Let's say it.

And now, I said, injustice has to be considered.

And now, I said, we need to think about injustice.

Clearly.

Clearly.

Must not injustice be a strife which arises among the three principles—a meddlesomeness, and interference, and rising up of a part of the soul against the whole, an assertion of unlawful authority, which is made by a rebellious subject against a true prince, of whom he is the natural vassal,—what is all this confusion and delusion but injustice, and intemperance and cowardice and ignorance, and every form of vice?

Mustn't injustice be a conflict that comes up among the three principles—a meddling, interference, and a part of the soul rebelling against the whole, a claim to illegitimate authority made by a disloyal subject against a rightful ruler, to whom they naturally belong—what is all this chaos and misunderstanding but injustice, recklessness, weakness, ignorance, and every kind of vice?

Exactly so.

Exactly.

And if the nature of justice and injustice be known, then the meaning of acting unjustly and being unjust, or, again, of acting justly, will also be perfectly clear?

And if we understand what justice and injustice are, then we'll also clearly understand what it means to act unjustly and be unjust, or to act justly.

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

Why, I said, they are like disease and health; being in the soul just what disease and health are in the body.

Why, I said, they are like illness and wellness; they exist in the soul just as illness and wellness exist in the body.

How so? he said.

How so? he asked.

Why, I said, that which is healthy causes health, and that which is unhealthy causes disease.

Why, I said, what is healthy brings health, and what is unhealthy brings disease.

Yes.

Yes.

And just actions cause justice, and unjust actions cause injustice?

And does doing the right thing lead to justice, while doing the wrong thing leads to injustice?

That is certain.

That's for sure.

And the creation of health is the institution of a natural order and government of one by another in the parts of the body; and the creation of disease is the production of a state of things at variance with this natural order?

And the creation of health is the establishment of a natural order and governance of one part of the body by another; and the creation of disease is the emergence of a situation that contradicts this natural order?

True.

True.

And is not the creation of justice the institution of a natural order and government of one by another in the parts of the soul, and the creation of injustice the production of a state of things at variance with the natural order?

And isn't the establishment of justice the organization of a natural order and the governance of one by another within the parts of the soul, while the creation of injustice results in a situation that goes against the natural order?

Exactly so, he said.

Exactly, he said.

Then virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul, and vice the disease and weakness and deformity of the same?

Then virtue is the health, beauty, and well-being of the soul, while vice is the disease, weakness, and deformity of it?

True.

True.

And do not good practices lead to virtue, and evil practices to vice?

And don’t good practices lead to virtue, while bad practices lead to vice?

Assuredly.

Definitely.

Still our old question of the comparative advantage of justice and injustice has not been answered: Which is the more profitable, to be just and act justly and practise virtue, whether seen or unseen of gods and men, or to be unjust and act unjustly, if only unpunished and unreformed?

Still, our old question about whether justice or injustice is more advantageous hasn't been resolved: Which is more rewarding, being just and acting justly while practicing virtue, whether it's recognized by gods and people or not, or being unjust and acting unjustly, as long as there are no consequences and no need for change?

In my judgment, Socrates, the question has now become ridiculous. We know that, when the bodily constitution is gone, life is no longer endurable, though pampered with all kinds of meats and drinks, and having all wealth and all power; and shall we be told that when the very essence of the vital principle is undermined and corrupted, life is still worth having to a man, if only he be allowed to do whatever he likes with the single exception that he is not to acquire justice and virtue, or to escape from injustice and vice; assuming them both to be such as we have described?

In my opinion, Socrates, this question has become absurd. We know that when our physical health is gone, life is unbearable, even with all kinds of food, drinks, wealth, and power; so are we really expected to believe that when the fundamental essence of life is broken and corrupted, life is still worth living for someone, as long as they can do whatever they want except for gaining justice and virtue, or escaping from injustice and vice, as we've defined them?

Yes, I said, the question is, as you say, ridiculous. Still, as we are near the spot at which we may see the truth in the clearest manner with our own eyes, let us not faint by the way.

Yes, I said, the question is, as you say, silly. Still, since we're close to the place where we can see the truth most clearly with our own eyes, let’s not give up along the way.

Certainly not, he replied.

Definitely not, he replied.

Come up hither, I said, and behold the various forms of vice, those of them, I mean, which are worth looking at.

Come up here, I said, and check out the different types of vice, the ones that are actually worth seeing.

I am following you, he replied: proceed.

I’m following you, he said: go ahead.

I said, The argument seems to have reached a height from which, as from some tower of speculation, a man may look down and see that virtue is one, but that the forms of vice are innumerable; there being four special ones which are deserving of note.

I said, The argument seems to have reached a point where, like standing on a tall tower of thought, a person can look down and see that virtue is singular, but the types of vice are countless; there are four specific ones worth mentioning.

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

I mean, I replied, that there appear to be as many forms of the soul as there are distinct forms of the State.

I mean, I replied, that there seem to be as many types of the soul as there are different types of the State.

How many?

How many?

There are five of the State, and five of the soul, I said.

There are five of the state, and five of the soul, I said.

What are they?

What are they?

The first, I said, is that which we have been describing, and which may be said to have two names, monarchy and aristocracy, accordingly as rule is exercised by one distinguished man or by many.

The first, I said, is what we’ve been describing, and it can be referred to by two names: monarchy and aristocracy, depending on whether the rule is held by one notable person or by many.

True, he replied.

"True," he replied.

But I regard the two names as describing one form only; for whether the government is in the hands of one or many, if the governors have been trained in the manner which we have supposed, the fundamental laws of the State will be maintained.

But I see the two names as referring to just one form; because whether power is held by one person or many, if those in charge have been trained as we’ve discussed, the basic laws of the State will be upheld.

That is true, he replied.

That's true, he replied.

BOOK V.

Such is the good and true City or State, and the good and true man is of the same pattern; and if this is right every other is wrong; and the evil is one which affects not only the ordering of the State, but also the regulation of the individual soul, and is exhibited in four forms.

This is the ideal City or State, and the ideal person reflects the same qualities. If this is correct, then everything else is incorrect; the wrongness impacts not only the structure of the State but also the management of each individual soul, showing up in four different ways.

What are they? he said.

What are they? he asked.

I was proceeding to tell the order in which the four evil forms appeared to me to succeed one another, when Polemarchus, who was sitting a little way off, just beyond Adeimantus, began to whisper to him: stretching forth his hand, he took hold of the upper part of his coat by the shoulder, and drew him towards him, leaning forward himself so as to be quite close and saying something in his ear, of which I only caught the words, ‘Shall we let him off, or what shall we do?’

I was about to explain the order in which the four evil figures showed up one after another when Polemarchus, who was sitting a short distance away just beyond Adeimantus, started to whisper to him. He reached out, grabbed the shoulder of Adeimantus's coat, pulled him closer, leaned forward so they were almost touching, and said something in his ear. I only heard the words, "Should we let him go, or what should we do?"

Certainly not, said Adeimantus, raising his voice.

Certainly not, Adeimantus said, raising his voice.

Who is it, I said, whom you are refusing to let off?

Who is it, I asked, that you're refusing to let go?

You, he said.

You, he said.

I repeated, Why am I especially not to be let off?

I asked again, Why am I not allowed to be let off?

Why, he said, we think that you are lazy, and mean to cheat us out of a whole chapter which is a very important part of the story; and you fancy that we shall not notice your airy way of proceeding; as if it were self-evident to everybody, that in the matter of women and children ‘friends have all things in common.’

Why, he said, we think you’re lazy and plan to cheat us out of a whole chapter, which is a crucial part of the story; and you believe we won’t notice your casual approach, as if it’s obvious to everyone that when it comes to women and children, ‘friends share everything.’

And was I not right, Adeimantus?

And wasn't I right, Adeimantus?

Yes, he said; but what is right in this particular case, like everything else, requires to be explained; for community may be of many kinds. Please, therefore, to say what sort of community you mean. We have been long expecting that you would tell us something about the family life of your citizens—how they will bring children into the world, and rear them when they have arrived, and, in general, what is the nature of this community of women and children—for we are of opinion that the right or wrong management of such matters will have a great and paramount influence on the State for good or for evil. And now, since the question is still undetermined, and you are taking in hand another State, we have resolved, as you heard, not to let you go until you give an account of all this.

Yes, he said; but what is right in this case, like everything else, needs to be explained because communities can take many forms. So, please tell us what kind of community you're talking about. We've been waiting for you to share something about the family life of your citizens—how they will have children, raise them when they arrive, and, in general, what the dynamic is like in this community of women and children. We believe that the proper or improper management of these issues will greatly impact the State, for better or worse. And now, since the question remains unresolved and you're considering another State, we've decided, as you heard, not to let you go until you explain all of this.

To that resolution, said Glaucon, you may regard me as saying Agreed.

To that resolution, Glaucon said, you can consider me saying Agreed.

And without more ado, said Thrasymachus, you may consider us all to be equally agreed.

And without further delay, Thrasymachus said, you can consider us all to be in complete agreement.

I said, You know not what you are doing in thus assailing me: What an argument are you raising about the State! Just as I thought that I had finished, and was only too glad that I had laid this question to sleep, and was reflecting how fortunate I was in your acceptance of what I then said, you ask me to begin again at the very foundation, ignorant of what a hornet’s nest of words you are stirring. Now I foresaw this gathering trouble, and avoided it.

I said, You don't realize what you're doing by attacking me like this: What a point you're making about the State! Just when I thought I had wrapped things up and was relieved that you accepted what I said, you ask me to start all over again, unaware of the mess of words you're stirring up. I anticipated this trouble and tried to avoid it.

For what purpose do you conceive that we have come here, said Thrasymachus,—to look for gold, or to hear discourse?

"For what reason do you think we've come here?" said Thrasymachus. "To search for gold or to listen to a discussion?"

Yes, but discourse should have a limit.

Yes, but conversation should have its boundaries.

Yes, Socrates, said Glaucon, and the whole of life is the only limit which wise men assign to the hearing of such discourses. But never mind about us; take heart yourself and answer the question in your own way: What sort of community of women and children is this which is to prevail among our guardians? and how shall we manage the period between birth and education, which seems to require the greatest care? Tell us how these things will be.

Yes, Socrates, Glaucon said, and the entirety of life is the only limit that wise people set for listening to such discussions. But let's not focus on us; be brave and answer the question in your own way: What kind of community of women and children will exist among our guardians? And how will we handle the time between birth and education, which seems to need the most attention? Explain how these things will work.

Yes, my simple friend, but the answer is the reverse of easy; many more doubts arise about this than about our previous conclusions. For the practicability of what is said may be doubted; and looked at in another point of view, whether the scheme, if ever so practicable, would be for the best, is also doubtful. Hence I feel a reluctance to approach the subject, lest our aspiration, my dear friend, should turn out to be a dream only.

Yes, my simple friend, but the answer is actually quite complicated; there are many more doubts about this than about our previous conclusions. We can question the feasibility of what is being discussed, and from another perspective, whether the plan, even if it is feasible, would actually be the best option is also uncertain. So, I hesitate to dive into the topic, fearing that our hopes, my dear friend, might end up being just a dream.

Fear not, he replied, for your audience will not be hard upon you; they are not sceptical or hostile.

"Don’t worry," he replied, "your audience won’t be tough on you; they are neither skeptical nor hostile."

I said: My good friend, I suppose that you mean to encourage me by these words.

I said: My good friend, I guess you’re trying to encourage me with these words.

Yes, he said.

Yeah, he said.

Then let me tell you that you are doing just the reverse; the encouragement which you offer would have been all very well had I myself believed that I knew what I was talking about: to declare the truth about matters of high interest which a man honours and loves among wise men who love him need occasion no fear or faltering in his mind; but to carry on an argument when you are yourself only a hesitating enquirer, which is my condition, is a dangerous and slippery thing; and the danger is not that I shall be laughed at (of which the fear would be childish), but that I shall miss the truth where I have most need to be sure of my footing, and drag my friends after me in my fall. And I pray Nemesis not to visit upon me the words which I am going to utter. For I do indeed believe that to be an involuntary homicide is a less crime than to be a deceiver about beauty or goodness or justice in the matter of laws. And that is a risk which I would rather run among enemies than among friends, and therefore you do well to encourage me.

Then let me tell you that you’re doing just the opposite; the encouragement you give would have been fine if I actually believed that I knew what I was talking about. Speaking the truth about important issues that someone respects and values among wise people who care about him shouldn’t make anyone feel fear or doubt. But having a debate when you’re just a hesitant questioner, which is my situation, is risky and tricky. The risk isn’t that I’ll be laughed at (that fear would be silly), but that I might miss the truth where I need to be most certain, and lead my friends down with me when I fall. And I hope Nemesis doesn’t hold me accountable for the words I’m about to say. Because I truly believe that being an unintentional killer is a lesser crime than deceiving others about beauty, goodness, or justice regarding laws. That’s a risk I’d rather take among enemies than friends, so you’re right to encourage me.

Glaucon laughed and said: Well then, Socrates, in case you and your argument do us any serious injury you shall be acquitted beforehand of the homicide, and shall not be held to be a deceiver; take courage then and speak.

Glaucon laughed and said, "Alright, Socrates, just so you know, if you and your argument happen to cause us any real harm, you won’t be blamed for murder or seen as a fraud. So go ahead and speak with confidence."

Well, I said, the law says that when a man is acquitted he is free from guilt, and what holds at law may hold in argument.

Well, I said, the law says that when a man is acquitted, he is free from guilt, and what applies in law can apply in argument.

Then why should you mind?

Then why should you care?

Well, I replied, I suppose that I must retrace my steps and say what I perhaps ought to have said before in the proper place. The part of the men has been played out, and now properly enough comes the turn of the women. Of them I will proceed to speak, and the more readily since I am invited by you.

Well, I replied, I guess I need to go back and say what I probably should have said earlier in the right spot. The men have had their turn, and now it’s the women’s time to take the stage. I'll talk about them now, especially since you’ve invited me to do so.

For men born and educated like our citizens, the only way, in my opinion, of arriving at a right conclusion about the possession and use of women and children is to follow the path on which we originally started, when we said that the men were to be the guardians and watchdogs of the herd.

For men raised and educated like our citizens, the only way, in my view, to reach a proper conclusion about the ownership and treatment of women and children is to stick to the path we initially took when we stated that men are to be the protectors and guardians of the group.

True.

True.

Let us further suppose the birth and education of our women to be subject to similar or nearly similar regulations; then we shall see whether the result accords with our design.

Let’s also assume that the birth and upbringing of our women follow similar or almost identical rules; then we can see if the outcome matches our intentions.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

What I mean may be put into the form of a question, I said: Are dogs divided into hes and shes, or do they both share equally in hunting and in keeping watch and in the other duties of dogs? or do we entrust to the males the entire and exclusive care of the flocks, while we leave the females at home, under the idea that the bearing and suckling their puppies is labour enough for them?

What I'm trying to say can be framed as a question, I said: Are dogs categorized as males and females, or do they both participate equally in hunting, guarding, and other dog duties? Or do we assign all the responsibility for the flocks to the males while keeping the females at home, thinking that raising and nursing their puppies is enough work for them?

No, he said, they share alike; the only difference between them is that the males are stronger and the females weaker.

No, he said, they are the same; the only difference between them is that the males are stronger and the females are weaker.

But can you use different animals for the same purpose, unless they are bred and fed in the same way?

But can you use different animals for the same purpose unless they are raised and fed the same way?

You cannot.

You can't.

Then, if women are to have the same duties as men, they must have the same nurture and education?

Then, if women are going to have the same responsibilities as men, shouldn't they have the same upbringing and education?

Yes.

Yes.

The education which was assigned to the men was music and gymnastic.

The education given to the men included music and physical training.

Yes.

Yes.

Then women must be taught music and gymnastic and also the art of war, which they must practise like the men?

Then women must be taught music, gymnastics, and also the art of war, which they need to practice just like the men?

That is the inference, I suppose.

That's the conclusion, I guess.

I should rather expect, I said, that several of our proposals, if they are carried out, being unusual, may appear ridiculous.

I would expect, I said, that many of our ideas, if put into action, being unconventional, might seem silly.

No doubt of it.

No doubt about it.

Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they are no longer young; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the enthusiastic old men who in spite of wrinkles and ugliness continue to frequent the gymnasia.

Yes, and the most absurd thing of all will be seeing women naked in the gym, working out alongside the men, especially when they're no longer young; they certainly won’t be a sight to behold, just like the overly enthusiastic old men who, despite their wrinkles and lack of looks, keep coming to the gym.

Yes, indeed, he said: according to present notions the proposal would be thought ridiculous.

Yes, he said: by today’s standards, the proposal would seem ridiculous.

But then, I said, as we have determined to speak our minds, we must not fear the jests of the wits which will be directed against this sort of innovation; how they will talk of women’s attainments both in music and gymnastic, and above all about their wearing armour and riding upon horseback!

But then, I said, since we've decided to be honest, we shouldn’t fear the jokes from the clever ones aimed at this kind of change; they’ll have plenty to say about women’s skills in music and sports, and especially about them wearing armor and riding horses!

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Yet having begun we must go forward to the rough places of the law; at the same time begging of these gentlemen for once in their life to be serious. Not long ago, as we shall remind them, the Hellenes were of the opinion, which is still generally received among the barbarians, that the sight of a naked man was ridiculous and improper; and when first the Cretans and then the Lacedaemonians introduced the custom, the wits of that day might equally have ridiculed the innovation.

Yet having started, we must move ahead to the tough aspects of the law; at the same time, we ask these gentlemen to be serious for once in their lives. Not long ago, as we will remind them, the Greeks believed, a view that is still common among the uncivilized, that seeing a naked man was laughable and inappropriate; and when the Cretans first and then the Spartans introduced this custom, the clever people of that time might have mocked the change.

No doubt.

No question.

But when experience showed that to let all things be uncovered was far better than to cover them up, and the ludicrous effect to the outward eye vanished before the better principle which reason asserted, then the man was perceived to be a fool who directs the shafts of his ridicule at any other sight but that of folly and vice, or seriously inclines to weigh the beautiful by any other standard but that of the good.

But when experience proved that revealing everything was much better than hiding it, and the ridiculous appearance faded away in light of the more rational principle, people recognized that it was foolish to mock anything other than folly and vice, or to judge beauty by any standard other than goodness.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

First, then, whether the question is to be put in jest or in earnest, let us come to an understanding about the nature of woman: Is she capable of sharing either wholly or partially in the actions of men, or not at all? And is the art of war one of those arts in which she can or can not share? That will be the best way of commencing the enquiry, and will probably lead to the fairest conclusion.

First, whether we’re asking this in a joking way or seriously, let’s agree on what women are like: Can they take part in men’s actions, fully or partially, or not at all? And is warfare one of the areas where they can participate, or not? That will be the best way to start the discussion and will likely lead to the most fair conclusion.

That will be much the best way.

That will be the best way to go.

Shall we take the other side first and begin by arguing against ourselves; in this manner the adversary’s position will not be undefended.

Shall we start by taking the other side and arguing against ourselves? That way, the opponent's position won't go unchallenged.

Why not? he said.

Why not? he asked.

Then let us put a speech into the mouths of our opponents. They will say: ‘Socrates and Glaucon, no adversary need convict you, for you yourselves, at the first foundation of the State, admitted the principle that everybody was to do the one work suited to his own nature.’ And certainly, if I am not mistaken, such an admission was made by us. ‘And do not the natures of men and women differ very much indeed?’ And we shall reply: Of course they do. Then we shall be asked, ‘Whether the tasks assigned to men and to women should not be different, and such as are agreeable to their different natures?’ Certainly they should. ‘But if so, have you not fallen into a serious inconsistency in saying that men and women, whose natures are so entirely different, ought to perform the same actions?’—What defence will you make for us, my good Sir, against any one who offers these objections?

Then let’s imagine what our opponents might say. They would argue: ‘Socrates and Glaucon, no one needs to challenge you, because you both admitted at the very beginning of the State that everyone should do the work suited to their nature.’ And if I’m not mistaken, we did make that admission. ‘And don’t men and women have very different natures?’ To which we would respond: Absolutely. Then they would ask, ‘Shouldn’t the tasks assigned to men and women be different and aligned with their unique natures?’ Indeed, they should. ‘But if that’s the case, haven’t you contradicted yourselves by saying that men and women, whose natures are so distinct, should perform the same actions?’—What defense can you provide for us, my good Sir, against anyone who raises these objections?

That is not an easy question to answer when asked suddenly; and I shall and I do beg of you to draw out the case on our side.

That’s not an easy question to answer when it comes out of the blue; and I kindly ask you to help clarify our position.

These are the objections, Glaucon, and there are many others of a like kind, which I foresaw long ago; they made me afraid and reluctant to take in hand any law about the possession and nurture of women and children.

These are the objections, Glaucon, and there are many others like them that I anticipated a long time ago; they made me fearful and hesitant to propose any laws regarding the ownership and upbringing of women and children.

By Zeus, he said, the problem to be solved is anything but easy.

By Zeus, he said, the issue at hand is far from simple.

Why yes, I said, but the fact is that when a man is out of his depth, whether he has fallen into a little swimming bath or into mid ocean, he has to swim all the same.

"Of course," I said, "but the truth is that when a man is in over his head, whether he’s just fallen into a kiddie pool or out in the middle of the ocean, he still has to swim."

Very true.

So true.

And must not we swim and try to reach the shore: we will hope that Arion’s dolphin or some other miraculous help may save us?

And shouldn’t we swim and try to reach the shore? Let’s hope that Arion’s dolphin or some other miraculous help might save us.

I suppose so, he said.

I guess so, he said.

Well then, let us see if any way of escape can be found. We acknowledged—did we not? that different natures ought to have different pursuits, and that men’s and women’s natures are different. And now what are we saying?—that different natures ought to have the same pursuits,—this is the inconsistency which is charged upon us.

Well then, let’s see if we can find a way out. We acknowledged—did we not?—that different natures should have different pursuits, and that men and women have different natures. And now what are we saying?—that different natures should have the same pursuits—this is the inconsistency that is being pointed out to us.

Precisely.

Exactly.

Verily, Glaucon, I said, glorious is the power of the art of contradiction!

Truly, Glaucon, I said, the power of the art of contradiction is amazing!

Why do you say so?

Why do you think that?

Because I think that many a man falls into the practice against his will. When he thinks that he is reasoning he is really disputing, just because he cannot define and divide, and so know that of which he is speaking; and he will pursue a merely verbal opposition in the spirit of contention and not of fair discussion.

Because I think a lot of guys get into the habit against their will. When they think they're reasoning, they're actually just arguing, simply because they can't define or separate their ideas, and therefore don't really understand what they're talking about. They end up engaging in pointless verbal disputes out of a sense of conflict rather than genuine discussion.

Yes, he replied, such is very often the case; but what has that to do with us and our argument?

Yes, he replied, that happens quite often; but what does that have to do with us and our argument?

A great deal; for there is certainly a danger of our getting unintentionally into a verbal opposition.

A lot; because there's definitely a risk of us accidentally getting into a verbal disagreement.

In what way?

How so?

Why we valiantly and pugnaciously insist upon the verbal truth, that different natures ought to have different pursuits, but we never considered at all what was the meaning of sameness or difference of nature, or why we distinguished them when we assigned different pursuits to different natures and the same to the same natures.

Why we bravely and aggressively insist on the truth that different natures should have different pursuits, but we never actually thought about what sameness or difference of nature really means, or why we differentiated them when we assigned different pursuits to different natures and the same pursuits to the same natures.

Why, no, he said, that was never considered by us.

Why, no, he said, we never thought about that.

I said: Suppose that by way of illustration we were to ask the question whether there is not an opposition in nature between bald men and hairy men; and if this is admitted by us, then, if bald men are cobblers, we should forbid the hairy men to be cobblers, and conversely?

I said: Imagine if we were to ask whether there’s a natural opposition between bald men and hairy men; and if we agree to this, then, if bald men are cobblers, should we forbid hairy men from being cobblers, and the other way around?

That would be a jest, he said.

That would be a joke, he said.

Yes, I said, a jest; and why? because we never meant when we constructed the State, that the opposition of natures should extend to every difference, but only to those differences which affected the pursuit in which the individual is engaged; we should have argued, for example, that a physician and one who is in mind a physician may be said to have the same nature.

Yes, I said, a joke; and why? Because we never intended, when we created the State, for the clash of natures to apply to every difference, but only to those differences that impacted the pursuits individuals were involved in. We would have argued, for instance, that a physician and someone who aspires to be a physician can be said to have the same nature.

True.

True.

Whereas the physician and the carpenter have different natures?

Whereas the doctor and the carpenter have different natures?

Certainly.

Sure.

And if, I said, the male and female sex appear to differ in their fitness for any art or pursuit, we should say that such pursuit or art ought to be assigned to one or the other of them; but if the difference consists only in women bearing and men begetting children, this does not amount to a proof that a woman differs from a man in respect of the sort of education she should receive; and we shall therefore continue to maintain that our guardians and their wives ought to have the same pursuits.

And if, I said, men and women seem to differ in their suitability for any skill or activity, we should argue that such skill or activity should be given to one or the other; but if the difference is just that women give birth and men father children, that doesn’t prove that a woman needs a different kind of education than a man does; therefore, we will continue to insist that our guardians and their wives should have the same activities.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Next, we shall ask our opponent how, in reference to any of the pursuits or arts of civic life, the nature of a woman differs from that of a man?

Next, we will ask our opponent how, regarding any of the activities or arts of civic life, the nature of a woman differs from that of a man?

That will be quite fair.

That will be totally fair.

And perhaps he, like yourself, will reply that to give a sufficient answer on the instant is not easy; but after a little reflection there is no difficulty.

And maybe he, just like you, will respond that giving a complete answer right away isn't easy; but after thinking it over for a bit, it becomes straightforward.

Yes, perhaps.

Sure, maybe.

Suppose then that we invite him to accompany us in the argument, and then we may hope to show him that there is nothing peculiar in the constitution of women which would affect them in the administration of the State.

Suppose we invite him to join us in the discussion, and then we can hope to show him that there is nothing unusual about the nature of women that would impact their ability to govern the State.

By all means.

Of course.

Let us say to him: Come now, and we will ask you a question:—when you spoke of a nature gifted or not gifted in any respect, did you mean to say that one man will acquire a thing easily, another with difficulty; a little learning will lead the one to discover a great deal; whereas the other, after much study and application, no sooner learns than he forgets; or again, did you mean, that the one has a body which is a good servant to his mind, while the body of the other is a hindrance to him?—would not these be the sort of differences which distinguish the man gifted by nature from the one who is ungifted?

Let's ask him this: Come on, we have a question for you—when you talked about someone being naturally talented or not, did you mean that some people pick things up easily while others struggle; that a bit of knowledge helps one person discover a lot, while the other quickly forgets what they've learned despite working hard? Or did you mean that one person has a body that supports their mind well, while the other’s body holds them back? Wouldn't these be the kinds of differences that set apart the naturally talented from those who aren’t?

No one will deny that.

No one can deny that.

And can you mention any pursuit of mankind in which the male sex has not all these gifts and qualities in a higher degree than the female? Need I waste time in speaking of the art of weaving, and the management of pancakes and preserves, in which womankind does really appear to be great, and in which for her to be beaten by a man is of all things the most absurd?

And can you think of any pursuit where men don’t have these skills and qualities to a greater extent than women? Do I really need to waste time talking about weaving, or making pancakes and preserves, where women truly excel, and where it’s completely ridiculous for a man to outperform a woman?

You are quite right, he replied, in maintaining the general inferiority of the female sex: although many women are in many things superior to many men, yet on the whole what you say is true.

You’re completely right, he said, in pointing out the general inferiority of women: while many women are better than many men in various ways, on the whole, what you’re saying is correct.

And if so, my friend, I said, there is no special faculty of administration in a state which a woman has because she is a woman, or which a man has by virtue of his sex, but the gifts of nature are alike diffused in both; all the pursuits of men are the pursuits of women also, but in all of them a woman is inferior to a man.

And if that's the case, my friend, I said, there’s no unique skill in leadership that a woman has just because she’s a woman, or that a man has simply because he’s a man. The talents given by nature are equally shared by both. All the activities that men engage in are also open to women, but in every one of them, a woman is at a disadvantage compared to a man.

Very true.

So true.

Then are we to impose all our enactments on men and none of them on women?

Then are we supposed to impose all our laws on men and none on women?

That will never do.

That's not going to work.

One woman has a gift of healing, another not; one is a musician, and another has no music in her nature?

One woman has a talent for healing, while another does not; one is a musician, and another lacks any musical ability?

Very true.

Totally true.

And one woman has a turn for gymnastic and military exercises, and another is unwarlike and hates gymnastics?

And one woman is into gymnastics and military training, while another is not interested in fighting and dislikes working out?

Certainly.

Sure.

And one woman is a philosopher, and another is an enemy of philosophy; one has spirit, and another is without spirit?

And one woman is a philosopher, while another is against philosophy; one is spirited, and another lacks spirit?

That is also true.

That's true too.

Then one woman will have the temper of a guardian, and another not. Was not the selection of the male guardians determined by differences of this sort?

Then one woman will have the temperament of a guardian, while another will not. Wasn't the choice of male guardians influenced by differences like these?

Yes.

Yep.

Men and women alike possess the qualities which make a guardian; they differ only in their comparative strength or weakness.

Men and women both have the qualities that make a good guardian; they just vary in their relative strength or weakness.

Obviously.

Clearly.

And those women who have such qualities are to be selected as the companions and colleagues of men who have similar qualities and whom they resemble in capacity and in character?

And those women who have these qualities should be chosen as companions and colleagues of men who have similar qualities and who are alike in ability and character?

Very true.

So true.

And ought not the same natures to have the same pursuits?

And shouldn't the same natures have the same goals?

They ought.

They should.

Then, as we were saying before, there is nothing unnatural in assigning music and gymnastic to the wives of the guardians—to that point we come round again.

Then, as we mentioned earlier, there’s nothing strange about giving music and physical exercise to the wives of the guardians—this is the point we return to again.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

The law which we then enacted was agreeable to nature, and therefore not an impossibility or mere aspiration; and the contrary practice, which prevails at present, is in reality a violation of nature.

The law we created was in line with nature, so it wasn't impossible or just a wish; the opposite practice that exists today is, in fact, a violation of nature.

That appears to be true.

That seems to be true.

We had to consider, first, whether our proposals were possible, and secondly whether they were the most beneficial?

We needed to think about, first, whether our proposals were realistic, and second, whether they were the most advantageous.

Yes.

Yep.

And the possibility has been acknowledged?

And has the possibility been recognized?

Yes.

Yes.

The very great benefit has next to be established?

The next question to address is what the significant benefit is.

Quite so.

Absolutely.

You will admit that the same education which makes a man a good guardian will make a woman a good guardian; for their original nature is the same?

You have to agree that the same education that helps a man become a good guardian will help a woman be a good guardian too, since their essential nature is the same.

Yes.

Yes.

I should like to ask you a question.

I’d like to ask you a question.

What is it?

What's it about?

Would you say that all men are equal in excellence, or is one man better than another?

Would you say that all men are equally excellent, or is one man better than another?

The latter.

The latter.

And in the commonwealth which we were founding do you conceive the guardians who have been brought up on our model system to be more perfect men, or the cobblers whose education has been cobbling?

And in the society we are creating, do you think the guardians raised with our ideal education will be better people, or the cobblers who have only learned to cobble?

What a ridiculous question!

What a silly question!

You have answered me, I replied: Well, and may we not further say that our guardians are the best of our citizens?

You answered me, so I said: Well, can we also say that our guardians are the best citizens?

By far the best.

The absolute best.

And will not their wives be the best women?

And won't their wives be the best women?

Yes, by far the best.

Definitely the best.

And can there be anything better for the interests of the State than that the men and women of a State should be as good as possible?

And is there anything better for the State than having its men and women be as good as they can be?

There can be nothing better.

There’s nothing better.

And this is what the arts of music and gymnastic, when present in such manner as we have described, will accomplish?

And this is what the arts of music and gymnastics, when present in the way we've described, will achieve?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then we have made an enactment not only possible but in the highest degree beneficial to the State?

Then have we made this law not only possible but also extremely beneficial to the State?

True.

True.

Then let the wives of our guardians strip, for their virtue will be their robe, and let them share in the toils of war and the defence of their country; only in the distribution of labours the lighter are to be assigned to the women, who are the weaker natures, but in other respects their duties are to be the same. And as for the man who laughs at naked women exercising their bodies from the best of motives, in his laughter he is plucking

Then let the wives of our guardians undress, for their virtue will be their clothing, and let them participate in the struggles of war and the defense of their country; only in the division of tasks should the lighter ones be given to the women, who are the physically weaker, but in all other respects, their responsibilities should be the same. And as for the man who laughs at naked women exercising their bodies for the best reasons, in his laughter, he is undermining.

‘A fruit of unripe wisdom,’

‘An early sign of wisdom,’

and he himself is ignorant of what he is laughing at, or what he is about;—for that is, and ever will be, the best of sayings, That the useful is the noble and the hurtful is the base.

and he doesn’t even realize what he’s laughing at or what he’s doing;—because that is, and always will be, the best saying: That what is useful is noble and what is harmful is low.

Very true.

So true.

Here, then, is one difficulty in our law about women, which we may say that we have now escaped; the wave has not swallowed us up alive for enacting that the guardians of either sex should have all their pursuits in common; to the utility and also to the possibility of this arrangement the consistency of the argument with itself bears witness.

Here’s one challenge in our laws regarding women that we can say we've now moved past; the wave hasn’t consumed us for stating that the guardians of both genders should share all their activities. The logic and feasibility of this arrangement serve as evidence of its coherence.

Yes, that was a mighty wave which you have escaped.

Yes, that was a huge wave that you got away from.

Yes, I said, but a greater is coming; you will not think much of this when you see the next.

Yes, I said, but something greater is coming; you won't think much of this when you see what’s next.

Go on; let me see.

Go ahead; let me see.

The law, I said, which is the sequel of this and of all that has preceded, is to the following effect,—‘that the wives of our guardians are to be common, and their children are to be common, and no parent is to know his own child, nor any child his parent.’

The law, I said, which follows this and everything that came before, is as follows: 'the wives of our guardians should be shared, their children should be shared, and no parent should know their own child, nor any child know their parent.'

Yes, he said, that is a much greater wave than the other; and the possibility as well as the utility of such a law are far more questionable.

Yes, he said, that is a much bigger wave than the other; and the likelihood as well as the usefulness of such a law are much more uncertain.

I do not think, I said, that there can be any dispute about the very great utility of having wives and children in common; the possibility is quite another matter, and will be very much disputed.

I don't think, I said, that there's any debate about the significant benefits of having wives and children together; the actual feasibility is a completely different issue and will be widely debated.

I think that a good many doubts may be raised about both.

I believe that many doubts can be raised about both.

You imply that the two questions must be combined, I replied. Now I meant that you should admit the utility; and in this way, as I thought, I should escape from one of them, and then there would remain only the possibility.

"You suggest that the two questions should be merged," I replied. "What I meant was that you need to acknowledge the usefulness; this way, I thought, I could avoid one of them, leaving only the possibility."

But that little attempt is detected, and therefore you will please to give a defence of both.

But that small effort is noticed, so please provide a defense for both.

Well, I said, I submit to my fate. Yet grant me a little favour: let me feast my mind with the dream as day dreamers are in the habit of feasting themselves when they are walking alone; for before they have discovered any means of effecting their wishes—that is a matter which never troubles them—they would rather not tire themselves by thinking about possibilities; but assuming that what they desire is already granted to them, they proceed with their plan, and delight in detailing what they mean to do when their wish has come true—that is a way which they have of not doing much good to a capacity which was never good for much. Now I myself am beginning to lose heart, and I should like, with your permission, to pass over the question of possibility at present. Assuming therefore the possibility of the proposal, I shall now proceed to enquire how the rulers will carry out these arrangements, and I shall demonstrate that our plan, if executed, will be of the greatest benefit to the State and to the guardians. First of all, then, if you have no objection, I will endeavour with your help to consider the advantages of the measure; and hereafter the question of possibility.

Well, I said, I accept my fate. But please do me a favor: let me indulge my mind in a daydream like those who often do when they're alone. Before they figure out how to make their wishes come true—and that's something that never worries them—they prefer not to exhaust themselves thinking about what could happen. Instead, they act as if what they want has already been granted, and they go ahead with their plans, enjoying the details of what they'll do once their wish is fulfilled. It’s a way of distracting themselves from their limitations. Right now, I'm starting to lose hope, so I'd like to skip the part about what's possible for the moment. Assuming for now that the proposal is feasible, I’ll examine how the leaders will implement these plans and show that if we follow through, it will greatly benefit both the State and the guardians. First, if you don’t mind, I’ll work with you to consider the advantages of this measure; we can tackle the question of feasibility later.

I have no objection; proceed.

I'm good with that; go ahead.

First, I think that if our rulers and their auxiliaries are to be worthy of the name which they bear, there must be willingness to obey in the one and the power of command in the other; the guardians must themselves obey the laws, and they must also imitate the spirit of them in any details which are entrusted to their care.

First, I believe that if our leaders and their supporters are to truly deserve the title they hold, there must be a willingness to follow from one side and the ability to lead from the other; the guardians must obey the laws themselves, and they must also embody the essence of those laws in every detail entrusted to their care.

That is right, he said.

That's right, he said.

You, I said, who are their legislator, having selected the men, will now select the women and give them to them;—they must be as far as possible of like natures with them; and they must live in common houses and meet at common meals. None of them will have anything specially his or her own; they will be together, and will be brought up together, and will associate at gymnastic exercises. And so they will be drawn by a necessity of their natures to have intercourse with each other—necessity is not too strong a word, I think?

You, I said, who are their legislator, having chosen the men, will now choose the women and give them to them; they should be as similar in nature to them as possible; and they will live in shared houses and eat together. None of them will have anything that belongs exclusively to them; they will be together, raised together, and engaged in physical activities together. Thus, they will be naturally inclined to interact with each other—“necessity” isn’t too strong a word, I think?

Yes, he said;—necessity, not geometrical, but another sort of necessity which lovers know, and which is far more convincing and constraining to the mass of mankind.

Yes, he said;—a necessity, not geometrical, but a different kind of necessity that lovers understand, and which is much more persuasive and compelling to most people.

True, I said; and this, Glaucon, like all the rest, must proceed after an orderly fashion; in a city of the blessed, licentiousness is an unholy thing which the rulers will forbid.

True, I said; and this, Glaucon, like everything else, must happen in an organized way; in a city of the blessed, excess is something immoral that the leaders will prohibit.

Yes, he said, and it ought not to be permitted.

Yes, he said, and it shouldn’t be allowed.

Then clearly the next thing will be to make matrimony sacred in the highest degree, and what is most beneficial will be deemed sacred?

Then obviously the next step is to make marriage sacred in the highest way, and what is most beneficial will be considered sacred?

Exactly.

Exactly.

And how can marriages be made most beneficial?—that is a question which I put to you, because I see in your house dogs for hunting, and of the nobler sort of birds not a few. Now, I beseech you, do tell me, have you ever attended to their pairing and breeding?

And how can marriages be made most beneficial?—that's a question I ask you because I see in your house hunting dogs and quite a few of the finer birds. Now, please, tell me, have you ever considered their mating and breeding?

In what particulars?

In what ways?

Why, in the first place, although they are all of a good sort, are not some better than others?

Why, to begin with, even though they're all good people, are some not better than others?

True.

True.

And do you breed from them all indifferently, or do you take care to breed from the best only?

And do you breed from all of them without thinking, or do you make sure to breed from only the best?

From the best.

From the top.

And do you take the oldest or the youngest, or only those of ripe age?

And do you choose the oldest or the youngest, or just those who are of mature age?

I choose only those of ripe age.

I only choose those who are of a suitable age.

And if care was not taken in the breeding, your dogs and birds would greatly deteriorate?

And if you didn't pay attention to breeding, your dogs and birds would really suffer?

Certainly.

Sure.

And the same of horses and animals in general?

And what about horses and animals in general?

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

Good heavens! my dear friend, I said, what consummate skill will our rulers need if the same principle holds of the human species!

Good heavens! my dear friend, I said, what incredible skill our leaders will need if the same principle applies to humanity!

Certainly, the same principle holds; but why does this involve any particular skill?

Certainly, the same principle applies; but why does this require any specific skill?

Because, I said, our rulers will often have to practise upon the body corporate with medicines. Now you know that when patients do not require medicines, but have only to be put under a regimen, the inferior sort of practitioner is deemed to be good enough; but when medicine has to be given, then the doctor should be more of a man.

Because, I said, our leaders will often need to use medicine on the community. Now you know that when patients don't need medicine but just have to follow a routine, a less skilled practitioner is seen as adequate; but when medicine is needed, the doctor should be more competent.

That is quite true, he said; but to what are you alluding?

That's really true, he said; but what are you referring to?

I mean, I replied, that our rulers will find a considerable dose of falsehood and deceit necessary for the good of their subjects: we were saying that the use of all these things regarded as medicines might be of advantage.

I mean, I replied, that our leaders will find a significant amount of falsehood and deceit necessary for the benefit of their people: we were saying that using all these things viewed as remedies could be helpful.

And we were very right.

And we were totally right.

And this lawful use of them seems likely to be often needed in the regulations of marriages and births.

And this legal use of them is likely to be frequently necessary in the rules governing marriages and births.

How so?

How's that?

Why, I said, the principle has been already laid down that the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition. Now these goings on must be a secret which the rulers only know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as the guardians may be termed, breaking out into rebellion.

Why, I said, it's already established that the best of either gender should be paired with the best as much as possible, while the less desirable should be paired with the less desirable as rarely as possible; and that they should raise the children from one kind of pairing, but not from the other if we want to keep the group in top shape. Now, these actions need to be a secret known only to the rulers, or else there’s a greater risk of our group, as we might call the guardians, rebelling.

Very true.

So true.

Had we not better appoint certain festivals at which we will bring together the brides and bridegrooms, and sacrifices will be offered and suitable hymeneal songs composed by our poets: the number of weddings is a matter which must be left to the discretion of the rulers, whose aim will be to preserve the average of population? There are many other things which they will have to consider, such as the effects of wars and diseases and any similar agencies, in order as far as this is possible to prevent the State from becoming either too large or too small.

Shouldn't we set specific festivals where we can gather the brides and grooms, offer sacrifices, and have our poets create fitting wedding songs? The number of weddings should be up to the rulers, whose goal will be to maintain a balanced population. They also need to think about other factors, like the impacts of wars, diseases, and other similar issues, in order to keep the State from becoming either too large or too small as much as possible.

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

We shall have to invent some ingenious kind of lots which the less worthy may draw on each occasion of our bringing them together, and then they will accuse their own ill-luck and not the rulers.

We’ll need to come up with some clever method of drawing lots so that the less deserving can pick each time we gather them. Then, they’ll blame their bad luck instead of blaming the leaders.

To be sure, he said.

Sure thing, he said.

And I think that our braver and better youth, besides their other honours and rewards, might have greater facilities of intercourse with women given them; their bravery will be a reason, and such fathers ought to have as many sons as possible.

And I believe that our braver and better youth, in addition to their other honors and rewards, should have more opportunities to interact with women; their bravery should be a reason for this, and such fathers should have as many sons as possible.

True.

True.

And the proper officers, whether male or female or both, for offices are to be held by women as well as by men—

And the proper officials, whether male or female or both, can hold office equally—

Yes—

Yeah—

The proper officers will take the offspring of the good parents to the pen or fold, and there they will deposit them with certain nurses who dwell in a separate quarter; but the offspring of the inferior, or of the better when they chance to be deformed, will be put away in some mysterious, unknown place, as they should be.

The right authorities will take the children of the good parents to the pen or fold, where they will leave them with specific caregivers who live in a different area; however, the children of the less desirable parents, or those of the better ones who happen to be deformed, will be sent away to some secret, unknown location, as they should be.

Yes, he said, that must be done if the breed of the guardians is to be kept pure.

Yes, he said, that has to be done if the guardianship breed is to remain pure.

They will provide for their nurture, and will bring the mothers to the fold when they are full of milk, taking the greatest possible care that no mother recognises her own child; and other wet-nurses may be engaged if more are required. Care will also be taken that the process of suckling shall not be protracted too long; and the mothers will have no getting up at night or other trouble, but will hand over all this sort of thing to the nurses and attendants.

They will take care of their upbringing and will bring the mothers to the group when they have plenty of milk, making sure that no mother recognizes her own child. If more wet-nurses are needed, they can be hired. They will also ensure that the nursing process doesn’t last too long, and the mothers won’t have to get up at night or deal with any hassle; all of that will be managed by the nurses and staff.

You suppose the wives of our guardians to have a fine easy time of it when they are having children.

You think the wives of our guardians have it pretty easy when they're having kids.

Why, said I, and so they ought. Let us, however, proceed with our scheme. We were saying that the parents should be in the prime of life?

Why, I said, and they should. Let’s, however, move forward with our plan. We were saying that the parents should be in their prime, right?

Very true.

Absolutely.

And what is the prime of life? May it not be defined as a period of about twenty years in a woman’s life, and thirty in a man’s?

And what is the prime of life? Could it be defined as a time of about twenty years in a woman’s life and thirty in a man’s?

Which years do you mean to include?

Which years are you planning to include?

A woman, I said, at twenty years of age may begin to bear children to the State, and continue to bear them until forty; a man may begin at five-and-twenty, when he has passed the point at which the pulse of life beats quickest, and continue to beget children until he be fifty-five.

A woman, I said, at twenty years old can start having children for the State and keep having them until she’s forty; a man can start at twenty-five, once he’s past the peak of his youth, and can have kids until he’s fifty-five.

Certainly, he said, both in men and women those years are the prime of physical as well as of intellectual vigour.

Sure, he said, in both men and women, those years are the peak of physical and intellectual energy.

Any one above or below the prescribed ages who takes part in the public hymeneals shall be said to have done an unholy and unrighteous thing; the child of which he is the father, if it steals into life, will have been conceived under auspices very unlike the sacrifices and prayers, which at each hymeneal priestesses and priest and the whole city will offer, that the new generation may be better and more useful than their good and useful parents, whereas his child will be the offspring of darkness and strange lust.

Anyone who is above or below the specified ages and participates in public weddings will be seen as having done something wrong and immoral; the child they father, if it comes into existence, will have been conceived in conditions very different from the offerings and prayers that the priestesses, the priest, and the entire city make at each wedding, hoping that the new generation will be better and more beneficial than their decent and helpful parents, while their child will be the result of darkness and unusual desire.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

And the same law will apply to any one of those within the prescribed age who forms a connection with any woman in the prime of life without the sanction of the rulers; for we shall say that he is raising up a bastard to the State, uncertified and unconsecrated.

And the same rule will apply to anyone within the specified age who connects with any woman in her prime without the approval of the authorities; because we will claim that he is bringing an illegitimate child into the State, unrecognized and unblessed.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he said.

This applies, however, only to those who are within the specified age: after that we allow them to range at will, except that a man may not marry his daughter or his daughter’s daughter, or his mother or his mother’s mother; and women, on the other hand, are prohibited from marrying their sons or fathers, or son’s son or father’s father, and so on in either direction. And we grant all this, accompanying the permission with strict orders to prevent any embryo which may come into being from seeing the light; and if any force a way to the birth, the parents must understand that the offspring of such an union cannot be maintained, and arrange accordingly.

This only applies to those within the specified age range: after that, they're free to choose as they please, except that a man can't marry his daughter or granddaughter, or his mother or grandmother; and women, on the other hand, can't marry their sons or fathers, or their son’s son or father’s father, and so forth in either direction. We allow all this, but with strict orders to ensure that any embryo that may come into existence doesn't survive; and if anyone tries to push for a birth, the parents need to understand that the child from such a union can't be raised, and they should plan accordingly.

That also, he said, is a reasonable proposition. But how will they know who are fathers and daughters, and so on?

That’s also a reasonable suggestion, he said. But how will they know who the fathers and daughters are, and so on?

They will never know. The way will be this:—dating from the day of the hymeneal, the bridegroom who was then married will call all the male children who are born in the seventh and tenth month afterwards his sons, and the female children his daughters, and they will call him father, and he will call their children his grandchildren, and they will call the elder generation grandfathers and grandmothers. All who were begotten at the time when their fathers and mothers came together will be called their brothers and sisters, and these, as I was saying, will be forbidden to inter-marry. This, however, is not to be understood as an absolute prohibition of the marriage of brothers and sisters; if the lot favours them, and they receive the sanction of the Pythian oracle, the law will allow them.

They will never know. Here’s how it will go: from the day of the wedding, the groom who got married will refer to all the male children born in the seventh and tenth month afterward as his sons, and the female children as his daughters. They will call him father, and he will call their children his grandchildren, while they will call the older generation grandfathers and grandmothers. All who were conceived when their parents were together will be called their brothers and sisters, and these, as I mentioned, will be prohibited from marrying. However, this shouldn’t be taken as a strict ban on the marriage of brothers and sisters; if luck is on their side, and they receive approval from the Pythian oracle, the law will permit it.

Quite right, he replied.

Absolutely, he replied.

Such is the scheme, Glaucon, according to which the guardians of our State are to have their wives and families in common. And now you would have the argument show that this community is consistent with the rest of our polity, and also that nothing can be better—would you not?

This is the plan, Glaucon, where the guardians of our State will share their wives and families. Now you want the argument to prove that this community fits well with our overall system, and that nothing could be better—right?

Yes, certainly.

Absolutely.

Shall we try to find a common basis by asking of ourselves what ought to be the chief aim of the legislator in making laws and in the organization of a State,—what is the greatest good, and what is the greatest evil, and then consider whether our previous description has the stamp of the good or of the evil?

Shall we try to find a common ground by asking ourselves what the main goal of a legislator should be when creating laws and organizing a State—what is the greatest good, and what is the greatest evil, and then consider whether our earlier description reflects the good or the evil?

By all means.

Sure thing.

Can there be any greater evil than discord and distraction and plurality where unity ought to reign? or any greater good than the bond of unity?

Can there be any greater evil than conflict and distraction and diversity where harmony should prevail? Or any greater good than the strength of unity?

There cannot.

Not possible.

And there is unity where there is community of pleasures and pains—where all the citizens are glad or grieved on the same occasions of joy and sorrow?

And there is unity where there's a shared experience of joys and sorrows—where all the people are happy or sad at the same times of celebration and loss?

No doubt.

No question.

Yes; and where there is no common but only private feeling a State is disorganized—when you have one half of the world triumphing and the other plunged in grief at the same events happening to the city or the citizens?

Yes; and when there’s no shared feeling but only personal emotions, a State becomes disorganized—what happens when one half of the world is celebrating while the other is drowning in sorrow over the same events affecting the city or its people?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Such differences commonly originate in a disagreement about the use of the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine,’ ‘his’ and ‘not his.’

Such differences typically stem from a disagreement over the use of the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine,’ ‘his’ and ‘not his.’

Exactly so.

Right on.

And is not that the best-ordered State in which the greatest number of persons apply the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine’ in the same way to the same thing?

And isn't that the best-run society where the most people use the terms ‘mine’ and ‘not mine’ in the same way for the same thing?

Quite true.

Absolutely.

Or that again which most nearly approaches to the condition of the individual—as in the body, when but a finger of one of us is hurt, the whole frame, drawn towards the soul as a centre and forming one kingdom under the ruling power therein, feels the hurt and sympathizes all together with the part affected, and we say that the man has a pain in his finger; and the same expression is used about any other part of the body, which has a sensation of pain at suffering or of pleasure at the alleviation of suffering.

Or that again which most closely resembles the state of the individual—like in the body, when one of our fingers gets hurt, the entire body, connected to the soul as its center and forming one cohesive unit under its governing power, feels the pain and universally empathizes with the affected part. We say that a person has pain in their finger; the same phrase is applied to any other part of the body that feels pain or experiences relief from suffering.

Very true, he replied; and I agree with you that in the best-ordered State there is the nearest approach to this common feeling which you describe.

Very true, he said; and I agree with you that in the best-managed society, there is the closest alignment with this shared sentiment that you describe.

Then when any one of the citizens experiences any good or evil, the whole State will make his case their own, and will either rejoice or sorrow with him?

Then when any of the citizens go through something good or bad, the entire State will support him, sharing in his joy or his sorrow.

Yes, he said, that is what will happen in a well-ordered State.

Yes, he said, that's what will happen in a well-organized State.

It will now be time, I said, for us to return to our State and see whether this or some other form is most in accordance with these fundamental principles.

It’s now time, I said, for us to go back to our State and see if this or another form is more in line with these basic principles.

Very good.

Great job.

Our State like every other has rulers and subjects?

Our state, like every other, has leaders and followers?

True.

True.

All of whom will call one another citizens?

All of whom will refer to each other as citizens?

Of course.

Of course.

But is there not another name which people give to their rulers in other States?

But don't people in other states call their leaders something else?

Generally they call them masters, but in democratic States they simply call them rulers.

Generally, they refer to them as masters, but in democratic countries, they just call them rulers.

And in our State what other name besides that of citizens do the people give the rulers?

And in our state, what other name do the people give the rulers besides citizens?

They are called saviours and helpers, he replied.

They’re called saviors and helpers, he replied.

And what do the rulers call the people?

And what do the leaders call the people?

Their maintainers and foster-fathers.

Their caregivers and guardians.

And what do they call them in other States?

And what do they call them in other states?

Slaves.

Slaves.

And what do the rulers call one another in other States?

And what do the leaders call each other in other states?

Fellow-rulers.

Co-rulers.

And what in ours?

And what about ours?

Fellow-guardians.

Fellow guardians.

Did you ever know an example in any other State of a ruler who would speak of one of his colleagues as his friend and of another as not being his friend?

Did you ever hear of a ruler in any other state who would call one of his colleagues his friend and another one not his friend?

Yes, very often.

Yeah, quite often.

And the friend he regards and describes as one in whom he has an interest, and the other as a stranger in whom he has no interest?

And the friend he thinks of and talks about as someone he cares about, and the other as a stranger he doesn't care about?

Exactly.

Exactly.

But would any of your guardians think or speak of any other guardian as a stranger?

But would any of your guardians consider or refer to any other guardian as a stranger?

Certainly he would not; for every one whom they meet will be regarded by them either as a brother or sister, or father or mother, or son or daughter, or as the child or parent of those who are thus connected with him.

Certainly he would not; for everyone they meet will be seen by them as either a brother or sister, a father or mother, a son or daughter, or as the child or parent of those who are connected to him in that way.

Capital, I said; but let me ask you once more: Shall they be a family in name only; or shall they in all their actions be true to the name? For example, in the use of the word ‘father,’ would the care of a father be implied and the filial reverence and duty and obedience to him which the law commands; and is the violator of these duties to be regarded as an impious and unrighteous person who is not likely to receive much good either at the hands of God or of man? Are these to be or not to be the strains which the children will hear repeated in their ears by all the citizens about those who are intimated to them to be their parents and the rest of their kinsfolk?

Capital, I said; but let me ask you again: Will they be a family in name only, or will they truly live up to that name in their actions? For instance, when it comes to the word ‘father,’ does it imply the care a father should provide, along with the respect, duty, and obedience that the law requires? Is someone who neglects these responsibilities seen as impious and unjust, likely to gain little from God or man? Will these be the lessons that children hear from everyone in the community about those they are told are their parents and relatives?

These, he said, and none other; for what can be more ridiculous than for them to utter the names of family ties with the lips only and not to act in the spirit of them?

These, he said, and no others; for what could be more ridiculous than for them to speak the names of family bonds with their lips alone and not to embody their meaning through their actions?

Then in our city the language of harmony and concord will be more often heard than in any other. As I was describing before, when any one is well or ill, the universal word will be ‘with me it is well’ or ‘it is ill.’

Then in our city, the language of harmony and agreement will be heard more often than anywhere else. As I mentioned before, when someone is doing well or not, the common response will be ‘I’m doing well’ or ‘I’m not doing well.’

Most true.

Very true.

And agreeably to this mode of thinking and speaking, were we not saying that they will have their pleasures and pains in common?

And in line with this way of thinking and talking, weren't we saying that they will share both their joys and their sorrows?

Yes, and so they will.

Yeah, and so they will.

And they will have a common interest in the same thing which they will alike call ‘my own,’ and having this common interest they will have a common feeling of pleasure and pain?

And they will share a common interest in something they will both refer to as 'my own,' and with this shared interest, they will experience similar feelings of pleasure and pain.

Yes, far more so than in other States.

Yes, much more than in other states.

And the reason of this, over and above the general constitution of the State, will be that the guardians will have a community of women and children?

And the reason for this, in addition to the overall structure of the State, is that the guardians will have a shared community of women and children?

That will be the chief reason.

That will be the main reason.

And this unity of feeling we admitted to be the greatest good, as was implied in our own comparison of a well-ordered State to the relation of the body and the members, when affected by pleasure or pain?

And we recognized that this unity of feeling was the greatest good, just like when we compared a well-organized State to the relationship between the body and its parts, especially when experiencing pleasure or pain.

That we acknowledged, and very rightly.

That we recognized, and quite rightly.

Then the community of wives and children among our citizens is clearly the source of the greatest good to the State?

Then the community of wives and children among our citizens is definitely the source of the greatest benefit to the State?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And this agrees with the other principle which we were affirming,—that the guardians were not to have houses or lands or any other property; their pay was to be their food, which they were to receive from the other citizens, and they were to have no private expenses; for we intended them to preserve their true character of guardians.

And this aligns with the other principle we were stating—that the guardians were not supposed to own houses, land, or any other property; their compensation was meant to be their food, which they were to get from the other citizens, and they were to have no personal expenses; we wanted them to maintain their true role as guardians.

Right, he replied.

Okay, he replied.

Both the community of property and the community of families, as I am saying, tend to make them more truly guardians; they will not tear the city in pieces by differing about ‘mine’ and ‘not mine;’ each man dragging any acquisition which he has made into a separate house of his own, where he has a separate wife and children and private pleasures and pains; but all will be affected as far as may be by the same pleasures and pains because they are all of one opinion about what is near and dear to them, and therefore they all tend towards a common end.

Both the community of property and the community of families, as I’m saying, help to truly make them guardians; they won’t tear the city apart by arguing over ‘mine’ and ‘not mine;’ no one will drag their possessions into a separate house of their own, where they have their own wife, kids, and personal joys and struggles; instead, everyone will be impacted as much as possible by the same joys and struggles because they all share common values about what matters to them, and as a result, they all work towards a shared goal.

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

And as they have nothing but their persons which they can call their own, suits and complaints will have no existence among them; they will be delivered from all those quarrels of which money or children or relations are the occasion.

And since they only have themselves to rely on, there won't be any lawsuits or complaints among them; they will be free from all the arguments that arise from money, children, or family.

Of course they will.

Of course they will.

Neither will trials for assault or insult ever be likely to occur among them. For that equals should defend themselves against equals we shall maintain to be honourable and right; we shall make the protection of the person a matter of necessity.

Neither will trials for assault or insult ever likely happen among them. For it is honorable and right that equals defend themselves against equals; we will make personal protection a necessity.

That is good, he said.

"That's good," he said.

Yes; and there is a further good in the law; viz. that if a man has a quarrel with another he will satisfy his resentment then and there, and not proceed to more dangerous lengths.

Yes; and there's an additional benefit to the law; namely, that if a person has a conflict with someone else, he will address his anger right then and there, instead of escalating things to a more dangerous level.

Certainly.

Of course.

To the elder shall be assigned the duty of ruling and chastising the younger.

The older person will be given the responsibility of leading and disciplining the younger ones.

Clearly.

Clearly.

Nor can there be a doubt that the younger will not strike or do any other violence to an elder, unless the magistrates command him; nor will he slight him in any way. For there are two guardians, shame and fear, mighty to prevent him: shame, which makes men refrain from laying hands on those who are to them in the relation of parents; fear, that the injured one will be succoured by the others who are his brothers, sons, fathers.

There’s no question that the younger person won’t hit or harm an elder unless ordered to do so by the authorities; they also won’t show disrespect in any way. This is because two powerful forces keep them in check: shame, which prevents people from physically harming those they view as parental figures, and fear that the person being hurt will receive support from their brothers, sons, or fathers.

That is true, he replied.

That's true, he replied.

Then in every way the laws will help the citizens to keep the peace with one another?

Then in every way, the laws will help citizens get along with each other?

Yes, there will be no want of peace.

Yes, there will be no lack of peace.

And as the guardians will never quarrel among themselves there will be no danger of the rest of the city being divided either against them or against one another.

And since the guardians will never argue amongst themselves, there will be no risk of the rest of the city being divided against them or against each other.

None whatever.

None at all.

I hardly like even to mention the little meannesses of which they will be rid, for they are beneath notice: such, for example, as the flattery of the rich by the poor, and all the pains and pangs which men experience in bringing up a family, and in finding money to buy necessaries for their household, borrowing and then repudiating, getting how they can, and giving the money into the hands of women and slaves to keep—the many evils of so many kinds which people suffer in this way are mean enough and obvious enough, and not worth speaking of.

I barely want to mention the small pettinesses they'll get rid of, since they're not worth discussing: like how the poor flatter the rich, and all the struggles people face raising a family and scraping together money for basic needs—borrowing and then denying it, getting by however they can, and handing the money to women and slaves to manage. The many different hardships people endure in this way are petty and pretty clear, and not worth talking about.

Yes, he said, a man has no need of eyes in order to perceive that.

Yes, he said, a man doesn't need eyes to see that.

And from all these evils they will be delivered, and their life will be blessed as the life of Olympic victors and yet more blessed.

And they will be saved from all these troubles, and their lives will be blessed like those of Olympic champions, but even more blessed.

How so?

How's that?

The Olympic victor, I said, is deemed happy in receiving a part only of the blessedness which is secured to our citizens, who have won a more glorious victory and have a more complete maintenance at the public cost. For the victory which they have won is the salvation of the whole State; and the crown with which they and their children are crowned is the fulness of all that life needs; they receive rewards from the hands of their country while living, and after death have an honourable burial.

The Olympic champion, I said, is considered happy for receiving only a portion of the fulfillment that our citizens achieve, who have secured a greater victory and enjoy more comprehensive support from the public. Their victory is the salvation of the entire State; the crown they and their children wear represents everything that life needs. They receive rewards from their country while they're alive, and after death, they have an honorable burial.

Yes, he said, and glorious rewards they are.

Yes, he said, and they are truly amazing rewards.

Do you remember, I said, how in the course of the previous discussion some one who shall be nameless accused us of making our guardians unhappy—they had nothing and might have possessed all things—to whom we replied that, if an occasion offered, we might perhaps hereafter consider this question, but that, as at present advised, we would make our guardians truly guardians, and that we were fashioning the State with a view to the greatest happiness, not of any particular class, but of the whole?

Do you remember, I said, how during our previous discussion someone, who shall remain unnamed, accused us of making our guardians unhappy—they had nothing and could have had everything—to which we replied that if the opportunity arises, we might consider this question later, but for now, we would make our guardians truly guardians, and that we were creating the State with the goal of maximizing happiness, not for any specific group, but for everyone?

Yes, I remember.

Yeah, I remember.

And what do you say, now that the life of our protectors is made out to be far better and nobler than that of Olympic victors—is the life of shoemakers, or any other artisans, or of husbandmen, to be compared with it?

And what do you think, now that the lives of our protectors are seen as much better and more admirable than those of Olympic champions—can the lives of shoemakers, or any other craftsmen, or farmers, really be compared to it?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

At the same time I ought here to repeat what I have said elsewhere, that if any of our guardians shall try to be happy in such a manner that he will cease to be a guardian, and is not content with this safe and harmonious life, which, in our judgment, is of all lives the best, but infatuated by some youthful conceit of happiness which gets up into his head shall seek to appropriate the whole state to himself, then he will have to learn how wisely Hesiod spoke, when he said, ‘half is more than the whole.’

At the same time, I should reiterate what I've mentioned before: if any of our guardians tries to find happiness in a way that makes him stop being a guardian, and isn't satisfied with this safe and balanced life, which we believe is the best of all lives, but gets caught up in some youthful fantasy of happiness that goes to his head and tries to take the whole state for himself, he will need to understand how wisely Hesiod said, ‘half is more than the whole.’

If he were to consult me, I should say to him: Stay where you are, when you have the offer of such a life.

If he asked for my advice, I would tell him: Stay where you are, especially when you have the chance for such a life.

You agree then, I said, that men and women are to have a common way of life such as we have described—common education, common children; and they are to watch over the citizens in common whether abiding in the city or going out to war; they are to keep watch together, and to hunt together like dogs; and always and in all things, as far as they are able, women are to share with the men? And in so doing they will do what is best, and will not violate, but preserve the natural relation of the sexes.

So, you agree then, I said, that men and women should have a shared way of life as we’ve talked about—shared education, shared children; and they should look after the citizens together whether they’re in the city or going off to war; they should keep watch together and hunt together like dogs; and in everything, as much as they can, women should share with men? By doing this, they'll do what’s best and will maintain, rather than disrupt, the natural relationship between the sexes.

I agree with you, he replied.

I agree with you, he said.

The enquiry, I said, has yet to be made, whether such a community be found possible—as among other animals, so also among men—and if possible, in what way possible?

The inquiry, I said, still needs to be conducted, to see if such a community is possible—both among other animals and among humans—and if it's possible, how exactly it could be achieved?

You have anticipated the question which I was about to suggest.

You anticipated the question I was about to bring up.

There is no difficulty, I said, in seeing how war will be carried on by them.

There’s no trouble, I said, in understanding how they will wage war.

How?

How?

Why, of course they will go on expeditions together; and will take with them any of their children who are strong enough, that, after the manner of the artisan’s child, they may look on at the work which they will have to do when they are grown up; and besides looking on they will have to help and be of use in war, and to wait upon their fathers and mothers. Did you never observe in the arts how the potters’ boys look on and help, long before they touch the wheel?

Sure, they'll definitely go on adventures together and bring along any of their kids who are strong enough. Just like the artisan’s child, the kids will watch the work they’ll eventually do when they grow up. And besides just watching, they'll also help out and be useful in war, and assist their moms and dads. Haven't you ever noticed how the potter's kids observe and help out long before they ever get to use the wheel?

Yes, I have.

Yeah, I have.

And shall potters be more careful in educating their children and in giving them the opportunity of seeing and practising their duties than our guardians will be?

And will potters be more diligent in raising their children and giving them the chance to see and practice their responsibilities than our guardians will be?

The idea is ridiculous, he said.

The idea is ridiculous, he said.

There is also the effect on the parents, with whom, as with other animals, the presence of their young ones will be the greatest incentive to valour.

There is also the impact on the parents, who, like other animals, find that the presence of their young is the biggest motivation for bravery.

That is quite true, Socrates; and yet if they are defeated, which may often happen in war, how great the danger is! the children will be lost as well as their parents, and the State will never recover.

That’s absolutely right, Socrates; but if they’re defeated, which can happen in war, the danger is huge! The children will be lost along with their parents, and the State will never bounce back.

True, I said; but would you never allow them to run any risk?

True, I said; but wouldn't you ever let them take any risks?

I am far from saying that.

I wouldn't say that at all.

Well, but if they are ever to run a risk should they not do so on some occasion when, if they escape disaster, they will be the better for it?

Well, if they’re going to take a risk, shouldn’t they do it at a time when, if they avoid disaster, they’ll come out ahead?

Clearly.

Clearly.

Whether the future soldiers do or do not see war in the days of their youth is a very important matter, for the sake of which some risk may fairly be incurred.

Whether future soldiers experience war in their youth or not is a very important issue, for which some risk may be justifiably taken.

Yes, very important.

Totally important.

This then must be our first step,—to make our children spectators of war; but we must also contrive that they shall be secured against danger; then all will be well.

This should be our first step—to let our children witness war; but we also need to ensure they are protected from danger; then everything will be fine.

True.

True.

Their parents may be supposed not to be blind to the risks of war, but to know, as far as human foresight can, what expeditions are safe and what dangerous?

Their parents might not be unaware of the risks of war, but they should know, as much as human foresight allows, which missions are safe and which are dangerous.

That may be assumed.

That can be assumed.

And they will take them on the safe expeditions and be cautious about the dangerous ones?

And they will take them on the safe trips and be careful about the risky ones?

True.

True.

And they will place them under the command of experienced veterans who will be their leaders and teachers?

And they will put them under the guidance of experienced veterans who will be their leaders and instructors?

Very properly.

Very appropriately.

Still, the dangers of war cannot be always foreseen; there is a good deal of chance about them?

Still, the dangers of war can't always be predicted; there's a lot of unpredictability involved.

True.

True.

Then against such chances the children must be at once furnished with wings, in order that in the hour of need they may fly away and escape.

Then, to face such risks, the children need to be given wings right away so that in a moment of need, they can fly away and get away.

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

I mean that we must mount them on horses in their earliest youth, and when they have learnt to ride, take them on horseback to see war: the horses must not be spirited and warlike, but the most tractable and yet the swiftest that can be had. In this way they will get an excellent view of what is hereafter to be their own business; and if there is danger they have only to follow their elder leaders and escape.

I mean that we should put them on horses when they're very young, and once they've learned to ride, take them horseback to witness war: the horses shouldn't be fierce and combative, but rather the most gentle yet fastest ones available. This way, they'll get a great look at what will eventually be their responsibility; and if there's any danger, they just need to follow their older leaders and get away.

I believe that you are right, he said.

"I think you're right," he said.

Next, as to war; what are to be the relations of your soldiers to one another and to their enemies? I should be inclined to propose that the soldier who leaves his rank or throws away his arms, or is guilty of any other act of cowardice, should be degraded into the rank of a husbandman or artisan. What do you think?

Next, regarding war; what should the relationships be between your soldiers and their enemies? I would suggest that a soldier who abandons his post, discards his weapons, or commits any other act of cowardice should be demoted to the status of a farmer or craftsman. What do you think?

By all means, I should say.

By all means, I should say.

And he who allows himself to be taken prisoner may as well be made a present of to his enemies; he is their lawful prey, and let them do what they like with him.

And the person who lets himself get captured might as well be a gift to his enemies; he is their rightful target, and they can do whatever they want with him.

Certainly.

Sure.

But the hero who has distinguished himself, what shall be done to him? In the first place, he shall receive honour in the army from his youthful comrades; every one of them in succession shall crown him. What do you say?

But what will happen to the hero who has set himself apart? First of all, he will be honored in the army by his young comrades; each of them, one after another, will crown him. What do you think?

I approve.

I approve.

And what do you say to his receiving the right hand of fellowship?

And what do you think about him getting the right hand of fellowship?

To that too, I agree.

I agree with that too.

But you will hardly agree to my next proposal.

But you probably won’t agree to my next proposal.

What is your proposal?

What's your suggestion?

That he should kiss and be kissed by them.

That he should kiss them and be kissed by them.

Most certainly, and I should be disposed to go further, and say: Let no one whom he has a mind to kiss refuse to be kissed by him while the expedition lasts. So that if there be a lover in the army, whether his love be youth or maiden, he may be more eager to win the prize of valour.

Most definitely, and I would even go further and say: Let no one who he wants to kiss turn him down while the mission is on. That way, if there's a lover in the army, whether it's a young man or a woman, he will be more motivated to earn the reward of bravery.

Capital, I said. That the brave man is to have more wives than others has been already determined: and he is to have first choices in such matters more than others, in order that he may have as many children as possible?

Capital, I said. It's already been decided that a brave man can have more wives than others, and he gets to make the first picks in these matters so he can have as many children as possible?

Agreed.

Sounds good.

Again, there is another manner in which, according to Homer, brave youths should be honoured; for he tells how Ajax, after he had distinguished himself in battle, was rewarded with long chines, which seems to be a compliment appropriate to a hero in the flower of his age, being not only a tribute of honour but also a very strengthening thing.

Again, there's another way, according to Homer, that brave young men should be honored; he mentions how Ajax, after proving himself in battle, was rewarded with long cuts of meat, which seems like a fitting tribute for a hero in the prime of his life, serving not just as an honor but also as something very nourishing.

Most true, he said.

That's true, he said.

Then in this, I said, Homer shall be our teacher; and we too, at sacrifices and on the like occasions, will honour the brave according to the measure of their valour, whether men or women, with hymns and those other distinctions which we were mentioning; also with

Then in this, I said, Homer will be our teacher; and we too, during sacrifices and similar occasions, will honor the brave according to their valor, whether they are men or women, with hymns and those other distinctions we were talking about; also with

‘seats of precedence, and meats and full cups;’

‘places of honor, and food and overflowing drinks;’

and in honouring them, we shall be at the same time training them.

and by honoring them, we will also be training them at the same time.

That, he replied, is excellent.

That's great, he replied.

Yes, I said; and when a man dies gloriously in war shall we not say, in the first place, that he is of the golden race?

Yes, I said; and when a man dies heroically in battle, shouldn't we first say that he belongs to the golden race?

To be sure.

For sure.

Nay, have we not the authority of Hesiod for affirming that when they are dead

Nay, do we not have Hesiod's authority to affirm that when they are dead

‘They are holy angels upon the earth, authors of good, averters of evil, the guardians of speech-gifted men’?

‘They are sacred angels on earth, creators of good, preventers of evil, the protectors of eloquent people’?

Yes; and we accept his authority.

Yes, and we accept his authority.

We must learn of the god how we are to order the sepulture of divine and heroic personages, and what is to be their special distinction; and we must do as he bids?

We need to understand from the god how we should arrange the burial of divine and heroic figures, and what their unique honors should be; and we must follow his commands.

By all means.

Absolutely.

And in ages to come we will reverence them and kneel before their sepulchres as at the graves of heroes. And not only they but any who are deemed pre-eminently good, whether they die from age, or in any other way, shall be admitted to the same honours.

And in the future, we will honor them and kneel at their graves like we do for heroes. Not just them, but anyone who is considered exceptionally good, whether they die of old age or in any other way, will receive the same honors.

That is very right, he said.

That’s totally true, he said.

Next, how shall our soldiers treat their enemies? What about this?

Next, how should our soldiers deal with their enemies? What do you think about this?

In what respect do you mean?

In what way are you asking?

First of all, in regard to slavery? Do you think it right that Hellenes should enslave Hellenic States, or allow others to enslave them, if they can help? Should not their custom be to spare them, considering the danger which there is that the whole race may one day fall under the yoke of the barbarians?

First of all, about slavery? Do you think it's okay for Greeks to enslave other Greek states, or let others do it if they can avoid it? Shouldn't their tradition be to protect each other, especially considering the threat that one day the entire race might end up under the control of barbarians?

To spare them is infinitely better.

To save them is way better.

Then no Hellene should be owned by them as a slave; that is a rule which they will observe and advise the other Hellenes to observe.

Then no Greek should be owned by them as a slave; that is a rule they will follow and encourage other Greeks to follow as well.

Certainly, he said; they will in this way be united against the barbarians and will keep their hands off one another.

Sure, he said; they'll be united against the outsiders this way and will stay away from each other.

Next as to the slain; ought the conquerors, I said, to take anything but their armour? Does not the practice of despoiling an enemy afford an excuse for not facing the battle? Cowards skulk about the dead, pretending that they are fulfilling a duty, and many an army before now has been lost from this love of plunder.

Next, regarding the slain; should the victors, I asked, take anything but their armor? Doesn’t the act of looting an enemy provide an excuse for avoiding the fight? Cowards hide around the dead, pretending they are doing their duty, and many armies have been defeated before because of this desire for loot.

Very true.

So true.

And is there not illiberality and avarice in robbing a corpse, and also a degree of meanness and womanishness in making an enemy of the dead body when the real enemy has flown away and left only his fighting gear behind him,—is not this rather like a dog who cannot get at his assailant, quarrelling with the stones which strike him instead?

And isn’t there a lack of generosity and greed in robbing a corpse? Isn’t there a kind of lowliness and weakness in making an enemy of the dead body when the real enemy has already run away, leaving only their armor behind? Isn’t this more like a dog that, unable to reach its attacker, ends up fighting the stones that hit it instead?

Very like a dog, he said.

Very much like a dog, he said.

Then we must abstain from spoiling the dead or hindering their burial?

Then we must refrain from disturbing the dead or obstructing their burial?

Yes, he replied, we most certainly must.

Yes, he replied, we definitely have to.

Neither shall we offer up arms at the temples of the gods, least of all the arms of Hellenes, if we care to maintain good feeling with other Hellenes; and, indeed, we have reason to fear that the offering of spoils taken from kinsmen may be a pollution unless commanded by the god himself?

Neither should we present weapons at the temples of the gods, especially the weapons of our fellow Greeks, if we want to keep good relations with other Greeks; and, in fact, we have good reason to worry that offering spoils taken from our own people could be seen as a defilement unless it's commanded by the god himself?

Very true.

So true.

Again, as to the devastation of Hellenic territory or the burning of houses, what is to be the practice?

Again, regarding the destruction of Greek land or the burning of homes, what should be the approach?

May I have the pleasure, he said, of hearing your opinion?

Can I please hear your thoughts? he asked.

Both should be forbidden, in my judgment; I would take the annual produce and no more. Shall I tell you why?

Both should be banned, in my opinion; I would only take the yearly yield and nothing more. Want me to explain why?

Pray do.

Please do.

Why, you see, there is a difference in the names ‘discord’ and ‘war,’ and I imagine that there is also a difference in their natures; the one is expressive of what is internal and domestic, the other of what is external and foreign; and the first of the two is termed discord, and only the second, war.

Why, you see, there’s a difference between the terms ‘discord’ and ‘war,’ and I believe there’s also a difference in what they represent; one reflects what is internal and personal, while the other relates to what is external and foreign; and the first of the two is called discord, and only the second is called war.

That is a very proper distinction, he replied.

That's a very valid distinction, he said.

And may I not observe with equal propriety that the Hellenic race is all united together by ties of blood and friendship, and alien and strange to the barbarians?

And can I also note that the Greek people are all connected by ties of blood and friendship, and they’re foreign and unfamiliar to the barbarians?

Very good, he said.

Good job, he said.

And therefore when Hellenes fight with barbarians and barbarians with Hellenes, they will be described by us as being at war when they fight, and by nature enemies, and this kind of antagonism should be called war; but when Hellenes fight with one another we shall say that Hellas is then in a state of disorder and discord, they being by nature friends; and such enmity is to be called discord.

And so when Greeks fight against non-Greeks and non-Greeks fight against Greeks, we will refer to those encounters as war, and they are naturally enemies, so this kind of conflict should be called war. However, when Greeks fight each other, we will say that Greece is in a state of chaos and disagreement, as they are naturally friends; this kind of hostility should be called discord.

I agree.

I’m in.

Consider then, I said, when that which we have acknowledged to be discord occurs, and a city is divided, if both parties destroy the lands and burn the houses of one another, how wicked does the strife appear! No true lover of his country would bring himself to tear in pieces his own nurse and mother: There might be reason in the conqueror depriving the conquered of their harvest, but still they would have the idea of peace in their hearts and would not mean to go on fighting for ever.

Consider then, I said, when what we recognize as conflict happens, and a city is divided, if both sides destroy each other's fields and burn each other's homes, how terrible does the fighting seem! No true lover of his country would allow himself to harm his own caretaker and mother. There might be a rationale for the winner taking away the crops from the loser, but still they would hold the idea of peace in their hearts and wouldn’t intend to keep fighting forever.

Yes, he said, that is a better temper than the other.

Yes, he said, that's a better attitude than the other one.

And will not the city, which you are founding, be an Hellenic city?

And won't the city you're building be a Greek city?

It ought to be, he replied.

"It should be," he replied.

Then will not the citizens be good and civilized?

Then won’t the citizens be good and civilized?

Yes, very civilized.

Yeah, super civilized.

And will they not be lovers of Hellas, and think of Hellas as their own land, and share in the common temples?

And won’t they be fans of Greece, see Greece as their own homeland, and participate in the shared temples?

Most certainly.

Definitely.

And any difference which arises among them will be regarded by them as discord only—a quarrel among friends, which is not to be called a war?

And any disagreements that come up between them will be seen as just that—arguments between friends, which shouldn’t be labeled as war?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Then they will quarrel as those who intend some day to be reconciled?

Then they'll fight like people who plan to make up someday?

Certainly.

Sure.

They will use friendly correction, but will not enslave or destroy their opponents; they will be correctors, not enemies?

They will offer constructive feedback, but will not enslave or harm their opponents; they will be mentors, not foes.

Just so.

Exactly.

And as they are Hellenes themselves they will not devastate Hellas, nor will they burn houses, nor ever suppose that the whole population of a city—men, women, and children—are equally their enemies, for they know that the guilt of war is always confined to a few persons and that the many are their friends. And for all these reasons they will be unwilling to waste their lands and rase their houses; their enmity to them will only last until the many innocent sufferers have compelled the guilty few to give satisfaction?

And since they are Greeks themselves, they won’t destroy Greece, nor will they burn homes, nor will they ever think that everyone in a city—men, women, and children—are all their enemies. They understand that the blame for war lies with just a few people, while the majority are their friends. For all these reasons, they won’t want to ruin their land or demolish their homes; their hatred will only last until the many innocent victims force the guilty few to make amends.

I agree, he said, that our citizens should thus deal with their Hellenic enemies; and with barbarians as the Hellenes now deal with one another.

"I agree," he said, "that our citizens should handle their Greek enemies this way; and deal with the barbarians just like the Greeks are currently dealing with each other."

Then let us enact this law also for our guardians:—that they are neither to devastate the lands of Hellenes nor to burn their houses.

Then let's make this rule for our guardians as well: they shouldn't destroy the lands of the Greeks or burn their homes.

Agreed; and we may agree also in thinking that these, like all our previous enactments, are very good.

Agreed; and we can also agree that these, like all our previous laws, are really good.

But still I must say, Socrates, that if you are allowed to go on in this way you will entirely forget the other question which at the commencement of this discussion you thrust aside:—Is such an order of things possible, and how, if at all? For I am quite ready to acknowledge that the plan which you propose, if only feasible, would do all sorts of good to the State. I will add, what you have omitted, that your citizens will be the bravest of warriors, and will never leave their ranks, for they will all know one another, and each will call the other father, brother, son; and if you suppose the women to join their armies, whether in the same rank or in the rear, either as a terror to the enemy, or as auxiliaries in case of need, I know that they will then be absolutely invincible; and there are many domestic advantages which might also be mentioned and which I also fully acknowledge: but, as I admit all these advantages and as many more as you please, if only this State of yours were to come into existence, we need say no more about them; assuming then the existence of the State, let us now turn to the question of possibility and ways and means—the rest may be left.

But I have to say, Socrates, that if you keep going like this, you’re going to completely overlook the other question you set aside at the start of our discussion: Is such an arrangement even possible, and if so, how? I’m ready to admit that your proposed plan, if it’s doable, would greatly benefit the State. I’ll also add what you didn’t mention—that your citizens would be the bravest warriors and would never abandon their ranks, because they would all know each other and each would refer to the others as father, brother, or son. And if you think about women joining the armies, whether in the same ranks or behind as support, either to intimidate the enemy or to assist when needed, I believe they would become truly invincible. There are numerous domestic advantages I could mention as well, which I completely acknowledge. However, since I agree to all these benefits and even more, if only your State could come to exist, we don’t need to discuss them further. Let’s assume the State exists and now focus on whether it’s possible and how it could be achieved—the rest can wait.

If I loiter for a moment, you instantly make a raid upon me, I said, and have no mercy; I have hardly escaped the first and second waves, and you seem not to be aware that you are now bringing upon me the third, which is the greatest and heaviest. When you have seen and heard the third wave, I think you will be more considerate and will acknowledge that some fear and hesitation was natural respecting a proposal so extraordinary as that which I have now to state and investigate.

If I hang around for a moment, you immediately attack me without mercy, I said, and I have barely avoided the first and second waves, and you don’t seem to realize that you’re now bringing the third wave upon me, which is the most significant and intense. Once you see and hear this third wave, I believe you’ll be more understanding and will recognize that some fear and hesitation is natural regarding a proposal as extraordinary as the one I have to present and explore.

The more appeals of this sort which you make, he said, the more determined are we that you shall tell us how such a State is possible: speak out and at once.

"The more requests like this you make," he said, "the more decided we are that you need to explain how such a State is possible: speak up and do it now."

Let me begin by reminding you that we found our way hither in the search after justice and injustice.

Let me start by reminding you that we came here in search of justice and injustice.

True, he replied; but what of that?

True, he replied; but so what?

I was only going to ask whether, if we have discovered them, we are to require that the just man should in nothing fail of absolute justice; or may we be satisfied with an approximation, and the attainment in him of a higher degree of justice than is to be found in other men?

I just wanted to ask whether, if we have found them, we should expect the just person to achieve perfect justice in every aspect; or can we be content with an approximation and a higher level of justice in them than what is seen in others?

The approximation will be enough.

The estimate will be enough.

We were enquiring into the nature of absolute justice and into the character of the perfectly just, and into injustice and the perfectly unjust, that we might have an ideal. We were to look at these in order that we might judge of our own happiness and unhappiness according to the standard which they exhibited and the degree in which we resembled them, but not with any view of showing that they could exist in fact.

We were exploring the concept of absolute justice and what it means to be perfectly just, as well as looking into injustice and the perfectly unjust, so we could have an ideal. We aimed to examine these ideas to evaluate our own happiness and unhappiness based on the standards they set and how closely we matched them, but not to prove that they could actually exist in reality.

True, he said.

True, he said.

Would a painter be any the worse because, after having delineated with consummate art an ideal of a perfectly beautiful man, he was unable to show that any such man could ever have existed?

Would a painter be any worse off because, after skillfully depicting an ideal of a perfectly beautiful man, he couldn't prove that such a man ever existed?

He would be none the worse.

He wouldn't be any worse off.

Well, and were we not creating an ideal of a perfect State?

Well, weren't we trying to create the ideal of a perfect state?

To be sure.

For sure.

And is our theory a worse theory because we are unable to prove the possibility of a city being ordered in the manner described?

And is our theory a worse theory just because we can’t prove that a city can be organized in the way described?

Surely not, he replied.

Definitely not, he replied.

That is the truth, I said. But if, at your request, I am to try and show how and under what conditions the possibility is highest, I must ask you, having this in view, to repeat your former admissions.

That's the truth, I said. But if, at your request, I'm supposed to explain how and under what conditions the possibility is greatest, I need you to repeat what you previously admitted, keeping this in mind.

What admissions?

What applications?

I want to know whether ideals are ever fully realized in language? Does not the word express more than the fact, and must not the actual, whatever a man may think, always, in the nature of things, fall short of the truth? What do you say?

I want to know if ideals are ever fully realized in language. Doesn’t the word express more than the fact, and doesn’t the actual, no matter what someone thinks, always, in the nature of things, fall short of the truth? What do you think?

I agree.

I agree.

Then you must not insist on my proving that the actual State will in every respect coincide with the ideal: if we are only able to discover how a city may be governed nearly as we proposed, you will admit that we have discovered the possibility which you demand; and will be contented. I am sure that I should be contented—will not you?

Then you shouldn’t insist that I prove that the real State will match the ideal in every way. If we can just figure out how to govern a city close to our plan, you’ll agree that we’ve found the possibility you’re looking for, and you’ll be satisfied. I know I’d be satisfied—wouldn’t you?

Yes, I will.

Yes, I will.

Let me next endeavour to show what is that fault in States which is the cause of their present maladministration, and what is the least change which will enable a State to pass into the truer form; and let the change, if possible, be of one thing only, or, if not, of two; at any rate, let the changes be as few and slight as possible.

Let me now try to explain what the flaw is in governments that leads to their current mismanagement, and what is the minimum change needed for a government to transition to a better model; ideally, this change should involve only one thing, or at most two; either way, the changes should be as few and minor as possible.

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

I think, I said, that there might be a reform of the State if only one change were made, which is not a slight or easy though still a possible one.

I think, I said, that there could be a reform of the State if just one change were made, which isn’t minor or simple but is still possible.

What is it? he said.

"What is it?" he asked.

Now then, I said, I go to meet that which I liken to the greatest of the waves; yet shall the word be spoken, even though the wave break and drown me in laughter and dishonour; and do you mark my words.

Now then, I said, I'm off to face what I compare to the biggest waves; yet I'll still speak the word, even if the wave crashes down and drowns me in laughter and disgrace; and you should pay attention to my words.

Proceed.

Understood. Please provide the text you'd like me to modernize.

I said: ‘Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from their evils,—nor the human race, as I believe,—and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day.’ Such was the thought, my dear Glaucon, which I would fain have uttered if it had not seemed too extravagant; for to be convinced that in no other State can there be happiness private or public is indeed a hard thing.

I said: "Until philosophers are rulers, or the rulers and leaders of this world embrace the spirit and wisdom of philosophy, merging political greatness with wisdom, and those with more common perspectives who focus solely on one or the other are pushed aside, cities will never find peace from their troubles—nor will humanity, as I believe—and only then will our State have a chance at life and see the light of day." That was the thought, my dear Glaucon, that I would have liked to express if it hadn’t seemed too far-fetched; because believing that no other State can achieve happiness, whether private or public, is truly a difficult thing.

Socrates, what do you mean? I would have you consider that the word which you have uttered is one at which numerous persons, and very respectable persons too, in a figure pulling off their coats all in a moment, and seizing any weapon that comes to hand, will run at you might and main, before you know where you are, intending to do heaven knows what; and if you don’t prepare an answer, and put yourself in motion, you will be ‘pared by their fine wits,’ and no mistake.

Socrates, what do you mean? I want you to think about how the word you just said is one that will make many people, and very respectable ones too, suddenly take off their coats and grab whatever weapon is nearby, rushing at you with full force before you even realize what’s happening, planning who knows what; and if you don’t get ready with a response and take action, you’ll be ‘pared by their fine wits,’ no doubt about it.

You got me into the scrape, I said.

You got me into this mess, I said.

And I was quite right; however, I will do all I can to get you out of it; but I can only give you good-will and good advice, and, perhaps, I may be able to fit answers to your questions better than another—that is all. And now, having such an auxiliary, you must do your best to show the unbelievers that you are right.

And I was absolutely right; still, I will do everything I can to help you out of this situation. All I can offer are my support and good advice, and maybe I can provide better answers to your questions than someone else—that’s about it. So now, with that support, you need to do your best to prove to the skeptics that you’re right.

I ought to try, I said, since you offer me such invaluable assistance. And I think that, if there is to be a chance of our escaping, we must explain to them whom we mean when we say that philosophers are to rule in the State; then we shall be able to defend ourselves: There will be discovered to be some natures who ought to study philosophy and to be leaders in the State; and others who are not born to be philosophers, and are meant to be followers rather than leaders.

I should give it a shot, I said, since you’re offering me such valuable help. I think that if we want a chance to escape, we need to explain who we’re talking about when we say that philosophers should lead in the State. Then we’ll be able to defend ourselves: there are some people who should study philosophy and become leaders, while others aren’t meant to be philosophers and are meant to follow rather than lead.

Then now for a definition, he said.

Then now for a definition, he said.

Follow me, I said, and I hope that I may in some way or other be able to give you a satisfactory explanation.

Follow me, I said, and I hope I can somehow provide you with a satisfactory explanation.

Proceed.

Understood. Please provide the text for modernization.

I dare say that you remember, and therefore I need not remind you, that a lover, if he is worthy of the name, ought to show his love, not to some one part of that which he loves, but to the whole.

I bet you remember, so I don’t need to remind you, that a true lover should express his love not just for one part of what he loves, but for the whole thing.

I really do not understand, and therefore beg of you to assist my memory.

I really don’t understand, so I’m asking you to help me remember.

Another person, I said, might fairly reply as you do; but a man of pleasure like yourself ought to know that all who are in the flower of youth do somehow or other raise a pang or emotion in a lover’s breast, and are thought by him to be worthy of his affectionate regards. Is not this a way which you have with the fair: one has a snub nose, and you praise his charming face; the hook-nose of another has, you say, a royal look; while he who is neither snub nor hooked has the grace of regularity: the dark visage is manly, the fair are children of the gods; and as to the sweet ‘honey pale,’ as they are called, what is the very name but the invention of a lover who talks in diminutives, and is not averse to paleness if appearing on the cheek of youth? In a word, there is no excuse which you will not make, and nothing which you will not say, in order not to lose a single flower that blooms in the spring-time of youth.

Another person, I said, might reasonably respond as you do; but someone who enjoys life like you should understand that everyone in the prime of youth stirs feelings in a lover's heart and is seen by him as worthy of his affection. Isn't this how you engage with the beautiful? One person has a flat nose, and you praise their lovely face; another with a hooked nose, you claim, has a regal appearance; while someone who has neither a flat nor hooked nose has the beauty of symmetry: the darker skin is seen as manly, while the fair-skinned are considered divine; and as for the sweet "honey pale," as they are called, isn’t that name just a creation of a lover who enjoys using endearing terms and doesn’t mind paleness when it’s on the cheeks of youth? In short, there’s no excuse you won’t find and nothing you won’t say to avoid missing out on any blossom that appears in the springtime of youth.

If you make me an authority in matters of love, for the sake of the argument, I assent.

If you want to consider me an expert in love for the sake of this discussion, I agree.

And what do you say of lovers of wine? Do you not see them doing the same? They are glad of any pretext of drinking any wine.

And what do you think about wine lovers? Don’t you see them doing the same thing? They’re happy for any excuse to drink wine.

Very good.

Great job.

And the same is true of ambitious men; if they cannot command an army, they are willing to command a file; and if they cannot be honoured by really great and important persons, they are glad to be honoured by lesser and meaner people,—but honour of some kind they must have.

And the same goes for ambitious people; if they can't lead an army, they're willing to lead a small group; and if they can't be recognized by truly great and influential individuals, they're happy to be acknowledged by less significant and ordinary people—but they need some kind of recognition.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Once more let me ask: Does he who desires any class of goods, desire the whole class or a part only?

Once again, let me ask: When someone wants a certain type of product, do they want the entire category or just a part of it?

The whole.

The entire thing.

And may we not say of the philosopher that he is a lover, not of a part of wisdom only, but of the whole?

And can we not say of the philosopher that he is a lover, not just of a part of wisdom, but of the whole thing?

Yes, of the whole.

Yes, of the whole thing.

And he who dislikes learning, especially in youth, when he has no power of judging what is good and what is not, such an one we maintain not to be a philosopher or a lover of knowledge, just as he who refuses his food is not hungry, and may be said to have a bad appetite and not a good one?

And someone who hates learning, especially when they're young and can't really tell what's good and what's not, we don't consider them a philosopher or a lover of knowledge, just like someone who turns down food isn't actually hungry and can be said to have a bad appetite instead of a good one.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Whereas he who has a taste for every sort of knowledge and who is curious to learn and is never satisfied, may be justly termed a philosopher? Am I not right?

Isn't it true that someone who enjoys all kinds of knowledge, is eager to learn, and is never satisfied can be called a philosopher? Am I right?

Glaucon said: If curiosity makes a philosopher, you will find many a strange being will have a title to the name. All the lovers of sights have a delight in learning, and must therefore be included. Musical amateurs, too, are a folk strangely out of place among philosophers, for they are the last persons in the world who would come to anything like a philosophical discussion, if they could help, while they run about at the Dionysiac festivals as if they had let out their ears to hear every chorus; whether the performance is in town or country—that makes no difference—they are there. Now are we to maintain that all these and any who have similar tastes, as well as the professors of quite minor arts, are philosophers?

Glaucon said: If curiosity defines a philosopher, then many odd characters could claim that title. All the enthusiasts for sights love learning and should be included. Music lovers, too, are oddly out of place among philosophers, as they would do anything to avoid a philosophical discussion if they could. Yet they rush around at the Dionysiac festivals, eager to hear every chorus; whether the event is in the city or the countryside makes no difference—they are there. So, are we really saying that everyone with these interests, as well as those who practice lesser arts, are philosophers?

Certainly not, I replied; they are only an imitation.

Certainly not, I replied; they’re just a copy.

He said: Who then are the true philosophers?

He said, "So who are the real philosophers?"

Those, I said, who are lovers of the vision of truth.

Those, I said, who love the vision of truth.

That is also good, he said; but I should like to know what you mean?

That’s good too, he said, but I’d like to know what you mean.

To another, I replied, I might have a difficulty in explaining; but I am sure that you will admit a proposition which I am about to make.

To someone else, I replied, I might struggle to explain; but I’m sure you’ll agree with the proposal I’m about to make.

What is the proposition?

What's the proposal?

That since beauty is the opposite of ugliness, they are two?

That since beauty is the opposite of ugliness, are they two?

Certainly.

Sure.

And inasmuch as they are two, each of them is one?

And since they are two, is each of them one?

True again.

True again.

And of just and unjust, good and evil, and of every other class, the same remark holds: taken singly, each of them is one; but from the various combinations of them with actions and things and with one another, they are seen in all sorts of lights and appear many?

And when it comes to just and unjust, good and evil, and every other category, the same observation applies: each of them stands alone as one; however, through the different combinations of them with actions, things, and with each other, they are viewed in various ways and seem numerous?

Very true.

So true.

And this is the distinction which I draw between the sight-loving, art-loving, practical class and those of whom I am speaking, and who are alone worthy of the name of philosophers.

And this is the difference I see between the sight-loving, art-loving, practical group and those I’m talking about, who alone deserve the title of philosophers.

How do you distinguish them? he said.

How do you tell them apart? he asked.

The lovers of sounds and sights, I replied, are, as I conceive, fond of fine tones and colours and forms and all the artificial products that are made out of them, but their mind is incapable of seeing or loving absolute beauty.

The people who love sounds and sights, I replied, are, as I see it, into beautiful tones, colors, shapes, and all the man-made things created from them, but their minds can’t truly recognize or appreciate pure beauty.

True, he replied.

For sure, he replied.

Few are they who are able to attain to the sight of this.

Few are able to see this.

Very true.

So true.

And he who, having a sense of beautiful things has no sense of absolute beauty, or who, if another lead him to a knowledge of that beauty is unable to follow—of such an one I ask, Is he awake or in a dream only? Reflect: is not the dreamer, sleeping or waking, one who likens dissimilar things, who puts the copy in the place of the real object?

And someone who has an appreciation for beautiful things but lacks an understanding of true beauty, or who, if someone else guides them to understand that beauty, is unable to follow—of such a person I ask, Are they awake or just dreaming? Consider this: isn't the dreamer, whether asleep or awake, someone who compares unrelated things, who replaces the real object with a mere copy?

I should certainly say that such an one was dreaming.

I would definitely say that someone like that was dreaming.

But take the case of the other, who recognises the existence of absolute beauty and is able to distinguish the idea from the objects which participate in the idea, neither putting the objects in the place of the idea nor the idea in the place of the objects—is he a dreamer, or is he awake?

But consider the other person, who acknowledges the existence of absolute beauty and can tell the idea apart from the objects that embody it, neither confusing the objects with the idea nor the idea with the objects—are they a dreamer, or are they awake?

He is wide awake.

He's wide awake.

And may we not say that the mind of the one who knows has knowledge, and that the mind of the other, who opines only, has opinion?

And can we not say that the mind of the person who knows has knowledge, while the mind of the one who just guesses has an opinion?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

But suppose that the latter should quarrel with us and dispute our statement, can we administer any soothing cordial or advice to him, without revealing to him that there is sad disorder in his wits?

But what if the latter gets into an argument with us and challenges our statement? Can we offer him any comforting words or advice without letting him know that there’s something seriously off in his thinking?

We must certainly offer him some good advice, he replied.

"We definitely need to give him some good advice," he replied.

Come, then, and let us think of something to say to him. Shall we begin by assuring him that he is welcome to any knowledge which he may have, and that we are rejoiced at his having it? But we should like to ask him a question: Does he who has knowledge know something or nothing? (You must answer for him.)

Come on, let’s figure out what to say to him. Should we start by letting him know he’s welcome to share any knowledge he has and that we’re glad he has it? But we also want to ask him a question: Does someone with knowledge know something or nothing? (You have to answer for him.)

I answer that he knows something.

I respond that he knows something.

Something that is or is not?

Is it or isn't it?

Something that is; for how can that which is not ever be known?

Something that exists; for how can what does not exist ever be known?

And are we assured, after looking at the matter from many points of view, that absolute being is or may be absolutely known, but that the utterly non-existent is utterly unknown?

And are we sure, after considering the situation from various angles, that absolute existence is or can be completely understood, while the completely non-existent is completely unknown?

Nothing can be more certain.

Nothing is more certain.

Good. But if there be anything which is of such a nature as to be and not to be, that will have a place intermediate between pure being and the absolute negation of being?

Good. But if there’s something that can exist and not exist at the same time, does that create a space between pure existence and total non-existence?

Yes, between them.

Yes, among them.

And, as knowledge corresponded to being and ignorance of necessity to not-being, for that intermediate between being and not-being there has to be discovered a corresponding intermediate between ignorance and knowledge, if there be such?

And since knowledge corresponds to existence and ignorance to non-existence, there must be some kind of middle ground between existence and non-existence, so we need to find a similar middle ground between ignorance and knowledge, if such a thing exists?

Certainly.

Sure.

Do we admit the existence of opinion?

Do we acknowledge the existence of opinion?

Undoubtedly.

Definitely.

As being the same with knowledge, or another faculty?

As being the same as knowledge, or another ability?

Another faculty.

Another department.

Then opinion and knowledge have to do with different kinds of matter corresponding to this difference of faculties?

Then do opinion and knowledge relate to different kinds of matters based on this difference in faculties?

Yes.

Yes.

And knowledge is relative to being and knows being. But before I proceed further I will make a division.

And knowledge is related to existence and understands existence. But before I go any further, I will make a distinction.

What division?

Which division?

I will begin by placing faculties in a class by themselves: they are powers in us, and in all other things, by which we do as we do. Sight and hearing, for example, I should call faculties. Have I clearly explained the class which I mean?

I will start by categorizing faculties as a distinct group: they are the abilities within us, and in all other things, that enable us to act as we do. For instance, I would refer to sight and hearing as faculties. Have I clarified the category I’m referring to?

Yes, I quite understand.

Yes, I totally get it.

Then let me tell you my view about them. I do not see them, and therefore the distinctions of figure, colour, and the like, which enable me to discern the differences of some things, do not apply to them. In speaking of a faculty I think only of its sphere and its result; and that which has the same sphere and the same result I call the same faculty, but that which has another sphere and another result I call different. Would that be your way of speaking?

Then let me share my perspective on them. I can’t see them, so the distinctions in shape, color, and such that help me recognize differences in some things don’t apply here. When I talk about a faculty, I only consider its area and its outcome; I refer to anything that has the same area and outcome as the same faculty, while anything with a different area and outcome I call different. Is that how you would put it?

Yes.

Yes.

And will you be so very good as to answer one more question? Would you say that knowledge is a faculty, or in what class would you place it?

And would you be so kind as to answer one more question? Would you say that knowledge is a skill, or how would you categorize it?

Certainly knowledge is a faculty, and the mightiest of all faculties.

Certainly, knowledge is a skill, and the greatest of all skills.

And is opinion also a faculty?

And is opinion also a skill?

Certainly, he said; for opinion is that with which we are able to form an opinion.

Certainly, he said; because it's our opinion that allows us to form an opinion.

And yet you were acknowledging a little while ago that knowledge is not the same as opinion?

And yet you just admitted a little while ago that knowledge isn't the same as opinion?

Why, yes, he said: how can any reasonable being ever identify that which is infallible with that which errs?

Sure, he replied: how can any rational person ever confuse what is perfect with what makes mistakes?

An excellent answer, proving, I said, that we are quite conscious of a distinction between them.

An excellent answer, showing, I said, that we are very aware of a difference between them.

Yes.

Yes.

Then knowledge and opinion having distinct powers have also distinct spheres or subject-matters?

Then knowledge and opinion, having different strengths, also have different areas or topics?

That is certain.

That's for sure.

Being is the sphere or subject-matter of knowledge, and knowledge is to know the nature of being?

Being is the area or topic of knowledge, and knowledge is about understanding the nature of being?

Yes.

Yes.

And opinion is to have an opinion?

And is having an opinion just about having an opinion?

Yes.

Yeah.

And do we know what we opine? or is the subject-matter of opinion the same as the subject-matter of knowledge?

And do we know what we think? Or is the topic of our opinions the same as the topic of our knowledge?

Nay, he replied, that has been already disproven; if difference in faculty implies difference in the sphere or subject-matter, and if, as we were saying, opinion and knowledge are distinct faculties, then the sphere of knowledge and of opinion cannot be the same.

No, he replied, that has already been proven wrong; if a difference in ability implies a difference in the area or subject matter, and if, as we were saying, opinion and knowledge are separate abilities, then the area of knowledge and opinion cannot be the same.

Then if being is the subject-matter of knowledge, something else must be the subject-matter of opinion?

Then if being is the topic of knowledge, something else must be the topic of opinion?

Yes, something else.

Yes, something different.

Well then, is not-being the subject-matter of opinion? or, rather, how can there be an opinion at all about not-being? Reflect: when a man has an opinion, has he not an opinion about something? Can he have an opinion which is an opinion about nothing?

Well then, is non-existence the topic of opinion? Or, how can there even be an opinion about non-existence? Think about it: when someone has an opinion, don’t they have an opinion about something? Is it possible to have an opinion that is about nothing?

Impossible.

Not happening.

He who has an opinion has an opinion about some one thing?

Anyone who has an opinion has an opinion about something specific?

Yes.

Yes.

And not-being is not one thing but, properly speaking, nothing?

And non-existence isn't just one thing; technically speaking, it's nothing?

True.

True.

Of not-being, ignorance was assumed to be the necessary correlative; of being, knowledge?

Of non-existence, ignorance was thought to be the necessary counterpart; of existence, knowledge?

True, he said.

True, he said.

Then opinion is not concerned either with being or with not-being?

Then is opinion not concerned with either existence or non-existence?

Not with either.

Not with either one.

And can therefore neither be ignorance nor knowledge?

And can it therefore be neither ignorance nor knowledge?

That seems to be true.

That seems to be true.

But is opinion to be sought without and beyond either of them, in a greater clearness than knowledge, or in a greater darkness than ignorance?

But should opinion be found outside of either of them, in a clearer way than knowledge, or in a darker way than ignorance?

In neither.

In neither place.

Then I suppose that opinion appears to you to be darker than knowledge, but lighter than ignorance?

Then I guess you think that opinion seems darker than knowledge, but lighter than ignorance?

Both; and in no small degree.

Both; and to a significant extent.

And also to be within and between them?

And also to exist within and between them?

Yes.

Yes.

Then you would infer that opinion is intermediate?

Then you would conclude that opinion is in between?

No question.

No doubt.

But were we not saying before, that if anything appeared to be of a sort which is and is not at the same time, that sort of thing would appear also to lie in the interval between pure being and absolute not-being; and that the corresponding faculty is neither knowledge nor ignorance, but will be found in the interval between them?

But weren’t we saying earlier that if something seems to exist and not exist at the same time, then it would also be found in the space between pure existence and total non-existence; and that the related ability is neither knowledge nor ignorance, but resides in the space between the two?

True.

True.

And in that interval there has now been discovered something which we call opinion?

And during that time, something has now been discovered that we refer to as opinion.

There has.

There exists.

Then what remains to be discovered is the object which partakes equally of the nature of being and not-being, and cannot rightly be termed either, pure and simple; this unknown term, when discovered, we may truly call the subject of opinion, and assign each to their proper faculty,—the extremes to the faculties of the extremes and the mean to the faculty of the mean.

Then what’s left to find is the thing that has both being and not-being, and can’t truly be called either one on its own; this unknown concept, once we discover it, we can rightly refer to as the subject of opinion, and assign each to their appropriate ability—extremes to the abilities of the extremes and the mean to the ability of the mean.

True.

True.

This being premised, I would ask the gentleman who is of opinion that there is no absolute or unchangeable idea of beauty—in whose opinion the beautiful is the manifold—he, I say, your lover of beautiful sights, who cannot bear to be told that the beautiful is one, and the just is one, or that anything is one—to him I would appeal, saying, Will you be so very kind, sir, as to tell us whether, of all these beautiful things, there is one which will not be found ugly; or of the just, which will not be found unjust; or of the holy, which will not also be unholy?

With that in mind, I'd like to ask the gentleman who believes that there is no absolute or unchanging idea of beauty—who thinks that beauty is varied—this: you, who love beautiful sights and can't stand the idea that beauty is singular, that justice is singular, or that anything is singular—can you please let us know if there’s any one beautiful thing that won’t also be ugly; or any just thing that won’t also be unjust; or any holy thing that won’t also be unholy?

No, he replied; the beautiful will in some point of view be found ugly; and the same is true of the rest.

No, he replied; beauty can be seen as ugly from certain perspectives, and the same goes for everything else.

And may not the many which are doubles be also halves?—doubles, that is, of one thing, and halves of another?

And can’t some things that are doubles also be halves?—doubles, meaning they represent one thing, and halves, meaning they represent another?

Quite true.

Totally true.

And things great and small, heavy and light, as they are termed, will not be denoted by these any more than by the opposite names?

And things that are big and small, heavy and light, as they’re called, won’t be labeled by these any more than by the opposite names?

True; both these and the opposite names will always attach to all of them.

True; both these and the opposite names will always apply to all of them.

And can any one of those many things which are called by particular names be said to be this rather than not to be this?

And can any of those many things that have specific names be said to be this instead of not being this?

He replied: They are like the punning riddles which are asked at feasts or the children’s puzzle about the eunuch aiming at the bat, with what he hit him, as they say in the puzzle, and upon what the bat was sitting. The individual objects of which I am speaking are also a riddle, and have a double sense: nor can you fix them in your mind, either as being or not-being, or both, or neither.

He replied: They’re like the playful riddles asked at parties or the kids' puzzle about the eunuch aiming at the bat, with what he hit him with, as the puzzle states, and on what the bat was sitting. The specific things I'm talking about are also a riddle and have a double meaning: you can't really pin them down in your mind as either existing or not existing, or both, or neither.

Then what will you do with them? I said. Can they have a better place than between being and not-being? For they are clearly not in greater darkness or negation than not-being, or more full of light and existence than being.

Then what will you do with them? I asked. Can they be in a better place than between being and not-being? Because they're clearly not in more darkness or negation than not-being, or more full of light and existence than being.

That is quite true, he said.

That’s totally right, he said.

Thus then we seem to have discovered that the many ideas which the multitude entertain about the beautiful and about all other things are tossing about in some region which is half-way between pure being and pure not-being?

So it seems we've found that the many ideas people have about beauty and everything else are floating around in a space that's somewhere between pure existence and pure non-existence.

We have.

We’ve got this.

Yes; and we had before agreed that anything of this kind which we might find was to be described as matter of opinion, and not as matter of knowledge; being the intermediate flux which is caught and detained by the intermediate faculty.

Yes; and we had previously agreed that anything like this we might discover would be labeled as an opinion, not as knowledge; since it's the transitional flow that is captured and held by the intermediate faculty.

Quite true.

Very true.

Then those who see the many beautiful, and who yet neither see absolute beauty, nor can follow any guide who points the way thither; who see the many just, and not absolute justice, and the like,—such persons may be said to have opinion but not knowledge?

Then those who see many beautiful things, yet neither see absolute beauty nor can follow a guide that shows the way there; who see many just things, but not absolute justice, and similar cases—these people may be said to have opinions but not knowledge?

That is certain.

That's for sure.

But those who see the absolute and eternal and immutable may be said to know, and not to have opinion only?

But those who perceive the absolute, eternal, and unchangeable can be said to know, rather than just having an opinion?

Neither can that be denied.

That can't be denied either.

The one love and embrace the subjects of knowledge, the other those of opinion? The latter are the same, as I dare say you will remember, who listened to sweet sounds and gazed upon fair colours, but would not tolerate the existence of absolute beauty.

The one deals with love and the things we understand, while the other focuses on personal beliefs? The second group, as I'm sure you recall, is made up of those who enjoyed beautiful sounds and admired lovely colors, but couldn't accept the idea of absolute beauty.

Yes, I remember.

Yeah, I remember.

Shall we then be guilty of any impropriety in calling them lovers of opinion rather than lovers of wisdom, and will they be very angry with us for thus describing them?

Shall we be wrong in calling them lovers of opinion instead of lovers of wisdom, and will they be very upset with us for describing them this way?

I shall tell them not to be angry; no man should be angry at what is true.

I'll tell them not to be angry; no one should be angry about what is true.

But those who love the truth in each thing are to be called lovers of wisdom and not lovers of opinion.

But those who love the truth in everything should be called lovers of wisdom, not lovers of opinion.

Assuredly.

For sure.

BOOK VI.

And thus, Glaucon, after the argument has gone a weary way, the true and the false philosophers have at length appeared in view.

And so, Glaucon, after the discussion has dragged on for a while, the real and the fake philosophers have finally come into sight.

I do not think, he said, that the way could have been shortened.

"I don't think," he said, "that the route could have been shortened."

I suppose not, I said; and yet I believe that we might have had a better view of both of them if the discussion could have been confined to this one subject and if there were not many other questions awaiting us, which he who desires to see in what respect the life of the just differs from that of the unjust must consider.

I guess not, I said; but I think we could have had a clearer view of both of them if the discussion had focused on just this one topic and if there weren’t so many other questions waiting for us. Anyone who wants to understand how the life of the just differs from that of the unjust needs to take those into account.

And what is the next question? he asked.

And what's the next question? he asked.

Surely, I said, the one which follows next in order. Inasmuch as philosophers only are able to grasp the eternal and unchangeable, and those who wander in the region of the many and variable are not philosophers, I must ask you which of the two classes should be the rulers of our State?

Surely, I said, the one that comes next in line. Since only philosophers can understand the eternal and unchanging truths, and those who focus on the many and ever-changing things are not philosophers, I must ask you which of the two groups should lead our State?

And how can we rightly answer that question?

And how can we properly answer that question?

Whichever of the two are best able to guard the laws and institutions of our State—let them be our guardians.

Whichever of the two is best able to protect the laws and institutions of our State—let them be our guardians.

Very good.

Great.

Neither, I said, can there be any question that the guardian who is to keep anything should have eyes rather than no eyes?

Neither, I said, can there be any doubt that the guardian who is in charge of something should have eyes instead of being blind?

There can be no question of that.

No doubt about that.

And are not those who are verily and indeed wanting in the knowledge of the true being of each thing, and who have in their souls no clear pattern, and are unable as with a painter’s eye to look at the absolute truth and to that original to repair, and having perfect vision of the other world to order the laws about beauty, goodness, justice in this, if not already ordered, and to guard and preserve the order of them—are not such persons, I ask, simply blind?

And aren't those who truly lack an understanding of the true nature of everything, who have no clear vision in their minds, and are unable to see the absolute truth like a skilled painter, and who cannot find their way back to that original truth, and lacking a perfect view of the other world to organize the principles of beauty, goodness, and justice here, if they are not already organized, and to protect and maintain that order—aren't such people, I ask, simply blind?

Truly, he replied, they are much in that condition.

Truly, he replied, they are very much in that condition.

And shall they be our guardians when there are others who, besides being their equals in experience and falling short of them in no particular of virtue, also know the very truth of each thing?

And will they be our protectors when there are others who, while being their equals in experience and lacking in no aspect of virtue, also understand the true nature of everything?

There can be no reason, he said, for rejecting those who have this greatest of all great qualities; they must always have the first place unless they fail in some other respect.

There’s no reason, he said, to reject those who possess this greatest of all qualities; they should always take the top spot unless they fall short in some other way.

Suppose then, I said, that we determine how far they can unite this and the other excellences.

Suppose then, I said, that we figure out how well they can combine this and the other qualities.

By all means.

Of course.

In the first place, as we began by observing, the nature of the philosopher has to be ascertained. We must come to an understanding about him, and, when we have done so, then, if I am not mistaken, we shall also acknowledge that such an union of qualities is possible, and that those in whom they are united, and those only, should be rulers in the State.

First, as we noted at the start, we need to understand the nature of the philosopher. We have to come to a consensus about him, and once we do that, I believe we will also recognize that this combination of qualities is attainable, and that only those who possess this combination should be the leaders in the State.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

Let us suppose that philosophical minds always love knowledge of a sort which shows them the eternal nature not varying from generation and corruption.

Let’s assume that thoughtful people always seek knowledge that reveals the unchanging nature of things, unaffected by birth and decay.

Agreed.

Understood.

And further, I said, let us agree that they are lovers of all true being; there is no part whether greater or less, or more or less honourable, which they are willing to renounce; as we said before of the lover and the man of ambition.

And also, I said, let’s agree that they are passionate about all true existence; there’s no part, whether bigger or smaller, or more or less honorable, that they are willing to give up; just like we discussed before about the lover and the ambitious person.

True.

True.

And if they are to be what we were describing, is there not another quality which they should also possess?

And if they are meant to be what we were talking about, isn’t there another quality they should have too?

What quality?

What kind of quality?

Truthfulness: they will never intentionally receive into their mind falsehood, which is their detestation, and they will love the truth.

Truthfulness: they will never intentionally allow falsehood into their minds, which they hate, and they will love the truth.

Yes, that may be safely affirmed of them.

Yes, that can definitely be said about them.

‘May be,’ my friend, I replied, is not the word; say rather ‘must be affirmed:’ for he whose nature is amorous of anything cannot help loving all that belongs or is akin to the object of his affections.

‘Maybe,’ my friend, I replied, isn’t the right word; it’s better to say ‘must be affirmed:’ because someone who naturally loves anything can’t help but love everything that belongs to or is related to the object of their affection.

Right, he said.

Okay, he said.

And is there anything more akin to wisdom than truth?

Is there anything more similar to wisdom than truth?

How can there be?

How can there be?

Can the same nature be a lover of wisdom and a lover of falsehood?

Can the same nature be both a lover of wisdom and a lover of lies?

Never.

Never.

The true lover of learning then must from his earliest youth, as far as in him lies, desire all truth?

The true lover of learning must, from a young age, strive for the truth as much as they can.

Assuredly.

For sure.

But then again, as we know by experience, he whose desires are strong in one direction will have them weaker in others; they will be like a stream which has been drawn off into another channel.

But as we know from experience, someone whose desires are strong in one area will have weaker desires in others; they will be like a stream that has been redirected into a different channel.

True.

True.

He whose desires are drawn towards knowledge in every form will be absorbed in the pleasures of the soul, and will hardly feel bodily pleasure—I mean, if he be a true philosopher and not a sham one.

A person whose desires are directed towards knowledge in all its forms will be immersed in the joys of the spirit and will hardly notice physical pleasure—assuming they are a genuine philosopher and not a fake one.

That is most certain.

That’s definitely true.

Such an one is sure to be temperate and the reverse of covetous; for the motives which make another man desirous of having and spending, have no place in his character.

Such a person is definitely self-controlled and not greedy; the reasons that make others want to acquire and spend have no part in his character.

Very true.

So true.

Another criterion of the philosophical nature has also to be considered.

Another criterion of a philosophical nature also needs to be considered.

What is that?

What's that?

There should be no secret corner of illiberality; nothing can be more antagonistic than meanness to a soul which is ever longing after the whole of things both divine and human.

There should be no hidden area of narrow-mindedness; nothing is more opposed to a spirit that constantly seeks the entirety of both divine and human aspects than being petty.

Most true, he replied.

Most definitely, he replied.

Then how can he who has magnificence of mind and is the spectator of all time and all existence, think much of human life?

Then how can someone with a grand mind, who observes all time and existence, care much about human life?

He cannot.

He can't.

Or can such an one account death fearful?

Or can someone really consider death to be scary?

No indeed.

No way.

Then the cowardly and mean nature has no part in true philosophy?

Then cowardice and a mean spirit have no place in true philosophy?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Or again: can he who is harmoniously constituted, who is not covetous or mean, or a boaster, or a coward—can he, I say, ever be unjust or hard in his dealings?

Or again: can someone who is well-balanced, who isn't greedy or petty, or boastful, or cowardly—can they, I ask, ever be unfair or harsh in their dealings?

Impossible.

Not happening.

Then you will soon observe whether a man is just and gentle, or rude and unsociable; these are the signs which distinguish even in youth the philosophical nature from the unphilosophical.

Then you will quickly see whether a man is fair and kind or harsh and unfriendly; these are the traits that set apart the philosophical nature from the unphilosophical, even in youth.

True.

True.

There is another point which should be remarked.

There's another thing to mention.

What point?

What's the point?

Whether he has or has not a pleasure in learning; for no one will love that which gives him pain, and in which after much toil he makes little progress.

Whether he enjoys learning or not; because no one will love what causes them pain, especially when, after a lot of effort, they see very little improvement.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And again, if he is forgetful and retains nothing of what he learns, will he not be an empty vessel?

And again, if he forgets everything he learns, won't he be an empty vessel?

That is certain.

That's for sure.

Labouring in vain, he must end in hating himself and his fruitless occupation? Yes.

Laboring in vain, he will ultimately end up hating himself and his pointless work? Yes.

Then a soul which forgets cannot be ranked among genuine philosophic natures; we must insist that the philosopher should have a good memory?

Then a soul that forgets cannot be considered among true philosophical natures; we must insist that a philosopher should have a good memory?

Certainly.

Absolutely.

And once more, the inharmonious and unseemly nature can only tend to disproportion?

And once again, the discordant and unattractive nature can only lead to imbalance?

Undoubtedly.

For sure.

And do you consider truth to be akin to proportion or to disproportion?

Do you think truth is more like proportion or disproportion?

To proportion.

To balance.

Then, besides other qualities, we must try to find a naturally well-proportioned and gracious mind, which will move spontaneously towards the true being of everything.

Then, in addition to other qualities, we need to look for a naturally well-balanced and graceful mind that will instinctively reach toward the true essence of everything.

Certainly.

Absolutely.

Well, and do not all these qualities, which we have been enumerating, go together, and are they not, in a manner, necessary to a soul, which is to have a full and perfect participation of being?

Well, don't all these qualities we've been listing go hand in hand, and aren't they, in a way, essential for a soul that aims to fully and perfectly participate in existence?

They are absolutely necessary, he replied.

They are definitely essential, he responded.

And must not that be a blameless study which he only can pursue who has the gift of a good memory, and is quick to learn,—noble, gracious, the friend of truth, justice, courage, temperance, who are his kindred?

And shouldn’t that be a worthy pursuit that only someone with a good memory and quick learning can follow—someone noble, gracious, a friend of truth, justice, courage, and temperance, who are his kindred?

The god of jealousy himself, he said, could find no fault with such a study.

The god of jealousy himself, he said, could find no issue with such a study.

And to men like him, I said, when perfected by years and education, and to these only you will entrust the State.

And to men like him, I said, when they are shaped by years and education, to these only will you trust the State.

Here Adeimantus interposed and said: To these statements, Socrates, no one can offer a reply; but when you talk in this way, a strange feeling passes over the minds of your hearers: They fancy that they are led astray a little at each step in the argument, owing to their own want of skill in asking and answering questions; these littles accumulate, and at the end of the discussion they are found to have sustained a mighty overthrow and all their former notions appear to be turned upside down. And as unskilful players of draughts are at last shut up by their more skilful adversaries and have no piece to move, so they too find themselves shut up at last; for they have nothing to say in this new game of which words are the counters; and yet all the time they are in the right. The observation is suggested to me by what is now occurring. For any one of us might say, that although in words he is not able to meet you at each step of the argument, he sees as a fact that the votaries of philosophy, when they carry on the study, not only in youth as a part of education, but as the pursuit of their maturer years, most of them become strange monsters, not to say utter rogues, and that those who may be considered the best of them are made useless to the world by the very study which you extol.

Here Adeimantus chimed in and said: Socrates, no one can really respond to your claims; but when you speak like this, it leaves a strange impression on your listeners’ minds. They start to think that they’re getting lost bit by bit in your argument because they struggle with asking and answering questions. These small confusions add up, and by the end of the discussion, they realize they’ve experienced a massive defeat, with all their previous beliefs turned upside down. It’s like inexperienced checkers players who eventually find themselves trapped by their more skilled opponents and have no pieces left to move. Similarly, they too end up stuck; they have nothing to say in this new game where words are the pieces. Yet all along, they are actually right. This thought occurs to me from what’s happening now. One could say that even if he can’t keep up with you on every point of the argument, he knows that those dedicated to philosophy, whether as part of their education in youth or as a lifelong pursuit, often become strange individuals, to put it mildly, or even complete rogues. And those who might be considered the best among them often become useless to the world because of the very study you praise.

Well, and do you think that those who say so are wrong?

Well, do you think those who say that are wrong?

I cannot tell, he replied; but I should like to know what is your opinion.

"I can't say," he replied, "but I’d really like to know what you think."

Hear my answer; I am of opinion that they are quite right.

Hear my answer: I believe they are completely correct.

Then how can you be justified in saying that cities will not cease from evil until philosophers rule in them, when philosophers are acknowledged by us to be of no use to them?

Then how can you justify saying that cities won't stop being corrupt until philosophers rule them, when we recognize that philosophers are actually useless to them?

You ask a question, I said, to which a reply can only be given in a parable.

You ask a question, I said, to which the answer can only be given in a story.

Yes, Socrates; and that is a way of speaking to which you are not at all accustomed, I suppose.

Yes, Socrates; and I guess this is a way of speaking that you're not used to at all.

I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering—every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer, though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard, and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug, they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such manner as might be expected of them. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion, they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not—the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

I see, I said, that you find it quite entertaining to have thrown me into such a hopeless discussion; but now listen to the story, and then you’ll be even more amused at the limits of my imagination: because the way the best people are treated in their own states is so terrible that nothing else on earth can compare to it; so, if I'm going to advocate for them, I need to turn to fiction and create a figure made up of many elements, like the mythical creatures combining goats and stags that we see in art. Imagine a fleet or a ship with a captain who is taller and stronger than any crew member, but he’s a bit deaf and has similar problems with his eyesight, and his knowledge of navigation isn’t much better. The sailors are arguing with each other about steering—everyone believes they have a right to steer, even though none of them have learned how to navigate, and they can’t say who taught them or when they learned, insisting that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to attack anyone who disagrees. They crowd around the captain, begging him to let them take the helm; if they don’t get their way and others are chosen instead, they will kill the others or throw them overboard. After first intoxicating the noble captain with drink or some kind of drug, they rebel and take control of the ship, consuming the supplies; thus, eating and drinking, they continue their journey in the way you’d expect of them. They praise whoever supports them and cleverly helps them seize the ship from the captain, whether by force or persuasion, by calling them sailors, pilots, or able seamen, and they insult the others, labeling them as worthless. But the true pilot has to pay attention to the year, the seasons, the sky, the stars, the winds, and everything else related to his craft if he truly wants to be qualified to command a ship; he must and will be the one steering, whether others agree or not—this blend of authority and steering skill has never seriously crossed their minds or become part of their work. So how will the true pilot be viewed on ships in a state of mutiny, among mutinous sailors? Will they not call him a chatterbox, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

Of course, said Adeimantus.

Of course, said Adeimantus.

Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State; for you understand already.

Then you probably don’t need to hear the explanation of the figure that illustrates the true philosopher's relationship with the State; you already get it.

Certainly.

Sure.

Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary.

Then imagine you take this story to the guy who is shocked to discover that philosophers aren't respected in their cities; explain it to him and try to persuade him that them being honored would be much more surprising.

I will.

I will.

Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him—that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’—the ingenious author of this saying told a lie—but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers.

Tell him that while he may be right in thinking that the best followers of philosophy are useless to the rest of the world, he should also recognize that their uselessness comes from the failure of those who refuse to use them, not from the philosophers themselves. The pilot shouldn’t humbly ask the sailors to listen to him—that’s not how things should be; and it’s not true that "the wise should go to the doors of the rich"—the clever person who said that was mistaken. The reality is that when someone is sick, they must go to the doctor, regardless of whether they are rich or poor, and those who seek guidance should turn to those capable of providing it. A competent ruler shouldn’t have to plead with their subjects to be governed by them; however, today’s leaders are quite different; they can be justly compared to rebellious sailors, while the true helmsmen are dismissed as good-for-nothings and dreamers.

Precisely so, he said.

Exactly, he said.

For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed.

For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the highest pursuit of all, isn't likely to be valued much by those on the other side; not that the greatest and most lasting harm comes from her opponents, but from her own professing followers, many of whom you think the accuser claims are complete frauds, and the best among them are ineffective; I agree with that viewpoint.

Yes.

Yes.

And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained?

And the reason why good people are useless has now been explained?

True.

True.

Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other?

Then let's go ahead and demonstrate that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this shouldn't be blamed on philosophy any more than it should be on anything else.

By all means.

Absolutely.

And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature. Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy.

And let's ask and answer in turn, first revisiting the description of the gentle and noble character. Truth, as you might recall, was his guide, whom he always followed in everything; if he failed to do this, he was a fraud and had no connection to true philosophy.

Yes, that was said.

Yes, that was said.

Well, and is not this one quality, to mention no others, greatly at variance with present notions of him?

Well, isn't this one quality, not to mention others, really different from the current ideas about him?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And have we not a right to say in his defence, that the true lover of knowledge is always striving after being—that is his nature; he will not rest in the multiplicity of individuals which is an appearance only, but will go on—the keen edge will not be blunted, nor the force of his desire abate until he have attained the knowledge of the true nature of every essence by a sympathetic and kindred power in the soul, and by that power drawing near and mingling and becoming incorporate with very being, having begotten mind and truth, he will have knowledge and will live and grow truly, and then, and not till then, will he cease from his travail.

And can we not argue in his defense that a true lover of knowledge is always striving for a deeper understanding—that's just who they are; they won’t settle for the superficial differences among individuals, which are just illusions. Instead, they will continue pursuing the truth—their sharp focus won’t dull, nor will their desire fade until they grasp the true essence of everything through a connected and sympathetic force within their soul. By that power, they will draw closer, mix with, and become one with the essence of being. Once they birth understanding and truth, they will gain true knowledge and live genuinely, and only then will they find peace from their efforts.

Nothing, he said, can be more just than such a description of him.

"Nothing," he said, "can describe him more accurately."

And will the love of a lie be any part of a philosopher’s nature? Will he not utterly hate a lie?

And can a philosopher really love a lie? Won't he completely detest it?

He will.

He will.

And when truth is the captain, we cannot suspect any evil of the band which he leads?

And when truth leads the way, we can't suspect any wrongdoing from the group he guides?

Impossible.

Not happening.

Justice and health of mind will be of the company, and temperance will follow after?

Justice and mental well-being will be present, and self-control will come along afterward?

True, he replied.

True, he said.

Neither is there any reason why I should again set in array the philosopher’s virtues, as you will doubtless remember that courage, magnificence, apprehension, memory, were his natural gifts. And you objected that, although no one could deny what I then said, still, if you leave words and look at facts, the persons who are thus described are some of them manifestly useless, and the greater number utterly depraved; we were then led to enquire into the grounds of these accusations, and have now arrived at the point of asking why are the majority bad, which question of necessity brought us back to the examination and definition of the true philosopher.

There’s no need for me to list the philosopher’s virtues again, as you surely remember that his natural gifts included courage, greatness, awareness, and memory. You pointed out that while no one can deny what I said, if we focus on facts instead of just words, some of the people described are clearly useless, and many are totally corrupt. This led us to question the reasons behind these claims, and now we’ve come to the point of asking why most people are bad, which naturally brings us back to examining and defining what a true philosopher is.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And we have next to consider the corruptions of the philosophic nature, why so many are spoiled and so few escape spoiling—I am speaking of those who were said to be useless but not wicked—and, when we have done with them, we will speak of the imitators of philosophy, what manner of men are they who aspire after a profession which is above them and of which they are unworthy, and then, by their manifold inconsistencies, bring upon philosophy, and upon all philosophers, that universal reprobation of which we speak.

And next, we need to look at the flaws in philosophical thinking—why so many people get corrupted while so few remain untouched. I'm talking about those who are considered unproductive but not evil. After we address them, we'll discuss the wannabe philosophers—what kind of people are they who aim for a field beyond their reach and who don’t deserve it, and how their many contradictions tarnish philosophy and bring a bad reputation to all philosophers, which we mentioned earlier.

What are these corruptions? he said.

What are these corruptions? he asked.

I will see if I can explain them to you. Every one will admit that a nature having in perfection all the qualities which we required in a philosopher, is a rare plant which is seldom seen among men.

I’ll see if I can explain them to you. Everyone will agree that a person with all the qualities we want in a philosopher is a rare find and not something you see often among people.

Rare indeed.

Very rare.

And what numberless and powerful causes tend to destroy these rare natures!

And what countless and strong factors work to destroy these unique individuals!

What causes?

What are the causes?

In the first place there are their own virtues, their courage, temperance, and the rest of them, every one of which praiseworthy qualities (and this is a most singular circumstance) destroys and distracts from philosophy the soul which is the possessor of them.

In the first place, there are their own virtues: courage, self-control, and the others, each one of which is a commendable quality (and this is quite a unique situation) that undermines and diverts the soul that possesses them from philosophy.

That is very singular, he replied.

That's really one of a kind, he replied.

Then there are all the ordinary goods of life—beauty, wealth, strength, rank, and great connections in the State—you understand the sort of things—these also have a corrupting and distracting effect.

Then there are all the everyday things in life—looks, money, strength, status, and important connections in the government—you know what I mean—these also have a corrupting and distracting influence.

I understand; but I should like to know more precisely what you mean about them.

I get it; but I would like to know more clearly what you mean about them.

Grasp the truth as a whole, I said, and in the right way; you will then have no difficulty in apprehending the preceding remarks, and they will no longer appear strange to you.

Grasp the truth as a whole, I said, and in the right way; you will then have no difficulty in understanding the previous comments, and they will no longer seem strange to you.

And how am I to do so? he asked.

And how am I supposed to do that? he asked.

Why, I said, we know that all germs or seeds, whether vegetable or animal, when they fail to meet with proper nutriment or climate or soil, in proportion to their vigour, are all the more sensitive to the want of a suitable environment, for evil is a greater enemy to what is good than to what is not.

Why, I said, we know that all germs or seeds, whether plant or animal, when they don't find the right nutrients, climate, or soil, are much more sensitive to the lack of a suitable environment based on their strength, because negativity is a bigger threat to what is good than to what is not.

Very true.

Very accurate.

There is reason in supposing that the finest natures, when under alien conditions, receive more injury than the inferior, because the contrast is greater.

There’s a good reason to think that the best people, when faced with unfamiliar situations, suffer more than those who are less capable, because the difference is more pronounced.

Certainly.

Sure.

And may we not say, Adeimantus, that the most gifted minds, when they are ill-educated, become pre-eminently bad? Do not great crimes and the spirit of pure evil spring out of a fulness of nature ruined by education rather than from any inferiority, whereas weak natures are scarcely capable of any very great good or very great evil?

And can we not agree, Adeimantus, that the most talented minds, when poorly educated, often turn out to be exceptionally bad? Don't serious crimes and pure evil arise from a lack of proper education rather than from any inherent deficiency, while weaker natures are hardly able to do either great good or great evil?

There I think that you are right.

I think you’re right.

And our philosopher follows the same analogy—he is like a plant which, having proper nurture, must necessarily grow and mature into all virtue, but, if sown and planted in an alien soil, becomes the most noxious of all weeds, unless he be preserved by some divine power. Do you really think, as people so often say, that our youth are corrupted by Sophists, or that private teachers of the art corrupt them in any degree worth speaking of? Are not the public who say these things the greatest of all Sophists? And do they not educate to perfection young and old, men and women alike, and fashion them after their own hearts?

And our philosopher uses the same analogy—he’s like a plant that, with the right care, will definitely grow and develop all the virtues. However, if he’s planted in the wrong soil, he’ll become the worst kind of weed unless he’s saved by some divine force. Do you really believe, as people often claim, that our youth are corrupted by Sophists, or that private teachers of the art do any significant damage? Aren’t the public who say this the biggest Sophists of all? And don’t they train both young and old, men and women alike, to be just like themselves?

When is this accomplished? he said.

"When is this done?" he asked.

When they meet together, and the world sits down at an assembly, or in a court of law, or a theatre, or a camp, or in any other popular resort, and there is a great uproar, and they praise some things which are being said or done, and blame other things, equally exaggerating both, shouting and clapping their hands, and the echo of the rocks and the place in which they are assembled redoubles the sound of the praise or blame—at such a time will not a young man’s heart, as they say, leap within him? Will any private training enable him to stand firm against the overwhelming flood of popular opinion? or will he be carried away by the stream? Will he not have the notions of good and evil which the public in general have—he will do as they do, and as they are, such will he be?

When people come together, whether it's at a meeting, in a courtroom, at a theater, in a camp, or any popular spot, and there's a lot of noise, praising some things being said or done and criticizing others, both sides being blown out of proportion, shouting and clapping, with the echoes around amplifying the sounds of approval or disapproval—won't a young man's heart, as they say, race inside him? Can any personal training help him resist the overpowering wave of public opinion, or will he get swept up in it? Won't he adopt the same ideas of right and wrong as everyone else? He'll probably act like they do, and if that's the case, isn't that who he'll become?

Yes, Socrates; necessity will compel him.

Yes, Socrates; necessity will force him.

And yet, I said, there is a still greater necessity, which has not been mentioned.

And yet, I said, there is an even greater necessity that hasn’t been mentioned.

What is that?

What's that?

The gentle force of attainder or confiscation or death, which, as you are aware, these new Sophists and educators, who are the public, apply when their words are powerless.

The mild pressure of punishment, confiscation, or death, which, as you know, these new thinkers and teachers, who represent the public, resort to when their arguments fail.

Indeed they do; and in right good earnest.

Indeed they do, and they're quite serious about it.

Now what opinion of any other Sophist, or of any private person, can be expected to overcome in such an unequal contest?

Now what opinion from any other Sophist or from any individual can be expected to prevail in such an unfair matchup?

None, he replied.

None, he said.

No, indeed, I said, even to make the attempt is a great piece of folly; there neither is, nor has been, nor is ever likely to be, any different type of character which has had no other training in virtue but that which is supplied by public opinion—I speak, my friend, of human virtue only; what is more than human, as the proverb says, is not included: for I would not have you ignorant that, in the present evil state of governments, whatever is saved and comes to good is saved by the power of God, as we may truly say.

No, really, I said, even trying is a major mistake; there has never been, is not now, and probably never will be, any other kind of character trained in virtue solely by public opinion—I’m only talking about human virtue; anything beyond that, as the saying goes, doesn’t count: I want you to understand that, in today’s corrupt state of governments, anything good that exists is saved by the power of God, as we can honestly say.

I quite assent, he replied.

I totally agree, he replied.

Then let me crave your assent also to a further observation.

Then let me ask for your agreement on another point.

What are you going to say?

What are you going to say?

Why, that all those mercenary individuals, whom the many call Sophists and whom they deem to be their adversaries, do, in fact, teach nothing but the opinion of the many, that is to say, the opinions of their assemblies; and this is their wisdom. I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him—he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes; and he can give no other account of them except that the just and noble are the necessary, having never himself seen, and having no power of explaining to others the nature of either, or the difference between them, which is immense. By heaven, would not such an one be a rare educator?

Why is it that all those mercenary individuals, whom many call Sophists and view as their adversaries, actually teach nothing but the opinions of the crowd, meaning the views of their gatherings? This is their form of wisdom. I could liken them to a person who studies the moods and desires of a powerful beast that he feeds—he would learn how to approach and manage it, at what times and for what reasons it is dangerous or calm, and what its various cries mean. He would also understand what sounds soothe or anger it when made by others. Suppose that, by constantly attending to the beast, he masters all of this and starts calling his knowledge wisdom, creating a system or art from it, which he then teaches, even though he has no real understanding of the principles or emotions he’s discussing. He labels this as honorable or dishonorable, good or evil, just or unjust, all based on the preferences and moods of the great beast. He claims that what the beast enjoys is good, and what it rejects is evil; he can provide no other explanation beyond that the just and noble are simply necessary, having never truly comprehended them himself, nor being able to clarify their essence or the vast difference between them. By heaven, wouldn’t that kind of person be an extraordinary educator?

Indeed he would.

Sure he would.

And in what way does he who thinks that wisdom is the discernment of the tempers and tastes of the motley multitude, whether in painting or music, or, finally, in politics, differ from him whom I have been describing? For when a man consorts with the many, and exhibits to them his poem or other work of art or the service which he has done the State, making them his judges when he is not obliged, the so-called necessity of Diomede will oblige him to produce whatever they praise. And yet the reasons are utterly ludicrous which they give in confirmation of their own notions about the honourable and good. Did you ever hear any of them which were not?

And how does someone who believes that wisdom is about understanding the moods and preferences of the diverse crowd—whether in art, music, or even politics—differ from the person I’ve been talking about? When someone engages with the masses and shows them his poem or any other artwork or service to the State, letting them judge even when it's not necessary, he’ll feel pressured to create whatever gets their approval. Yet, the justifications they offer for their own ideas about what’s honorable and good are completely ridiculous. Have you ever heard any of them that weren’t?

No, nor am I likely to hear.

No, and I probably won’t hear either.

You recognise the truth of what I have been saying? Then let me ask you to consider further whether the world will ever be induced to believe in the existence of absolute beauty rather than of the many beautiful, or of the absolute in each kind rather than of the many in each kind?

Do you acknowledge the truth of what I’ve been saying? Then let me ask you to think about whether the world will ever come to believe in the existence of absolute beauty instead of the many beautiful things, or in the absolute within each category instead of the many within each category?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Then the world cannot possibly be a philosopher?

Then the world can't possibly be a philosopher?

Impossible.

Not possible.

And therefore philosophers must inevitably fall under the censure of the world?

And so, philosophers will inevitably face criticism from society?

They must.

They have to.

And of individuals who consort with the mob and seek to please them?

And what about people who hang out with the crowd and try to win their approval?

That is evident.

That's clear.

Then, do you see any way in which the philosopher can be preserved in his calling to the end? and remember what we were saying of him, that he was to have quickness and memory and courage and magnificence—these were admitted by us to be the true philosopher’s gifts.

Then, do you see any way for the philosopher to stay true to his calling until the end? And remember what we said about him: he was supposed to have quickness, memory, courage, and magnificence—these were recognized by us as the true gifts of a philosopher.

Yes.

Yep.

Will not such an one from his early childhood be in all things first among all, especially if his bodily endowments are like his mental ones?

Will such a person not be the best at everything from a young age, especially if their physical abilities match their mental ones?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And his friends and fellow-citizens will want to use him as he gets older for their own purposes?

And as he gets older, his friends and fellow citizens will want to use him for their own purposes?

No question.

No doubt.

Falling at his feet, they will make requests to him and do him honour and flatter him, because they want to get into their hands now, the power which he will one day possess.

They will fall at his feet, making requests and honoring him, flattering him because they want to gain the power he will one day have.

That often happens, he said.

That happens a lot, he said.

And what will a man such as he is be likely to do under such circumstances, especially if he be a citizen of a great city, rich and noble, and a tall proper youth? Will he not be full of boundless aspirations, and fancy himself able to manage the affairs of Hellenes and of barbarians, and having got such notions into his head will he not dilate and elevate himself in the fulness of vain pomp and senseless pride?

And what is a man like him likely to do in such situations, especially if he’s a citizen of a big city, wealthy and noble, and a tall, handsome young man? Won’t he be filled with endless ambitions and think he can handle the matters of Greeks and non-Greeks? Once he gets those ideas in his head, won’t he puff himself up and elevate himself in a complete display of empty arrogance and foolish pride?

To be sure he will.

He definitely will.

Now, when he is in this state of mind, if some one gently comes to him and tells him that he is a fool and must get understanding, which can only be got by slaving for it, do you think that, under such adverse circumstances, he will be easily induced to listen?

Now, when he's in this mindset, if someone softly approaches him and tells him that he's being foolish and needs to gain understanding—which can only be achieved through hard work—do you think that, in such unfavorable conditions, he will be easily persuaded to listen?

Far otherwise.

Not at all.

And even if there be some one who through inherent goodness or natural reasonableness has had his eyes opened a little and is humbled and taken captive by philosophy, how will his friends behave when they think that they are likely to lose the advantage which they were hoping to reap from his companionship? Will they not do and say anything to prevent him from yielding to his better nature and to render his teacher powerless, using to this end private intrigues as well as public prosecutions?

And even if there’s someone who, due to their natural goodness or common sense, has started to see things more clearly and is humbled and captivated by philosophy, how will their friends react when they feel they might lose the benefits they were hoping to gain from being around them? Won't they do and say anything to stop that person from embracing their better self and to make their teacher ineffective, using both private schemes and public attacks to achieve that?

There can be no doubt of it.

No question about it.

And how can one who is thus circumstanced ever become a philosopher?

And how can someone in that situation ever become a philosopher?

Impossible.

Not happening.

Then were we not right in saying that even the very qualities which make a man a philosopher may, if he be ill-educated, divert him from philosophy, no less than riches and their accompaniments and the other so-called goods of life?

Then weren't we right in saying that even the qualities that make someone a philosopher can, if they're poorly educated, lead them away from philosophy just as much as wealth and its associated luxuries and other so-called goods in life?

We were quite right.

We were totally correct.

Thus, my excellent friend, is brought about all that ruin and failure which I have been describing of the natures best adapted to the best of all pursuits; they are natures which we maintain to be rare at any time; this being the class out of which come the men who are the authors of the greatest evil to States and individuals; and also of the greatest good when the tide carries them in that direction; but a small man never was the doer of any great thing either to individuals or to States.

So, my dear friend, this is how all the ruin and failure I've been talking about happen to those whose natures are best suited for the highest pursuits. We assert that such natures are rare at any time; this group is where we find the people who can cause the most harm to both societies and individuals, as well as the greatest good when circumstances lead them that way. But a small-minded person has never accomplished anything great, whether for individuals or for states.

That is most true, he said.

That's totally true, he said.

And so philosophy is left desolate, with her marriage rite incomplete: for her own have fallen away and forsaken her, and while they are leading a false and unbecoming life, other unworthy persons, seeing that she has no kinsmen to be her protectors, enter in and dishonour her; and fasten upon her the reproaches which, as you say, her reprovers utter, who affirm of her votaries that some are good for nothing, and that the greater number deserve the severest punishment.

And so philosophy is left alone, with her marriage ceremony unfinished: her own have abandoned and neglected her, and while they are living false and unworthy lives, others, seeing that she has no supporters to protect her, come in and disrespect her; and they place on her the criticisms that, as you mentioned, her critics say, claiming that some of her followers are useless, and that most deserve the harshest punishment.

That is certainly what people say.

That's what people say.

Yes; and what else would you expect, I said, when you think of the puny creatures who, seeing this land open to them—a land well stocked with fair names and showy titles—like prisoners running out of prison into a sanctuary, take a leap out of their trades into philosophy; those who do so being probably the cleverest hands at their own miserable crafts? For, although philosophy be in this evil case, still there remains a dignity about her which is not to be found in the arts. And many are thus attracted by her whose natures are imperfect and whose souls are maimed and disfigured by their meannesses, as their bodies are by their trades and crafts. Is not this unavoidable?

Yes; and what else would you expect, I said, when you think about the insignificant people who, seeing this land open to them—a land full of impressive names and flashy titles—like prisoners escaping from jail into a refuge, jump from their jobs into philosophy; those who do so are probably the best at their own miserable tasks? Because, even though philosophy is in a tough spot, there’s still a dignity about it that you won’t find in the arts. Many are therefore drawn to it whose personalities are flawed and whose souls are damaged and marked by their shortcomings, just as their bodies are by their jobs and crafts. Isn’t this inevitable?

Yes.

Yes.

Are they not exactly like a bald little tinker who has just got out of durance and come into a fortune; he takes a bath and puts on a new coat, and is decked out as a bridegroom going to marry his master’s daughter, who is left poor and desolate?

Are they not just like a bald little tinkerer who has just been released from prison and come into some money; he takes a bath, puts on a new coat, and is dressed up like a groom ready to marry his master’s daughter, who is left broke and alone?

A most exact parallel.

A very close parallel.

What will be the issue of such marriages? Will they not be vile and bastard?

What will come from these marriages? Will they not be disgusting and illegitimate?

There can be no question of it.

There's no doubt.

And when persons who are unworthy of education approach philosophy and make an alliance with her who is in a rank above them what sort of ideas and opinions are likely to be generated? Will they not be sophisms captivating to the ear, having nothing in them genuine, or worthy of or akin to true wisdom?

And when people who don’t deserve an education engage with philosophy and team up with someone above them, what kind of ideas and opinions are likely to come out of that? Won’t they just be persuasive nonsense that sounds good but lacks anything real, valuable, or related to true wisdom?

No doubt, he said.

No doubt, he said.

Then, Adeimantus, I said, the worthy disciples of philosophy will be but a small remnant: perchance some noble and well-educated person, detained by exile in her service, who in the absence of corrupting influences remains devoted to her; or some lofty soul born in a mean city, the politics of which he contemns and neglects; and there may be a gifted few who leave the arts, which they justly despise, and come to her;—or peradventure there are some who are restrained by our friend Theages’ bridle; for everything in the life of Theages conspired to divert him from philosophy; but ill-health kept him away from politics. My own case of the internal sign is hardly worth mentioning, for rarely, if ever, has such a monitor been given to any other man. Those who belong to this small class have tasted how sweet and blessed a possession philosophy is, and have also seen enough of the madness of the multitude; and they know that no politician is honest, nor is there any champion of justice at whose side they may fight and be saved. Such an one may be compared to a man who has fallen among wild beasts—he will not join in the wickedness of his fellows, but neither is he able singly to resist all their fierce natures, and therefore seeing that he would be of no use to the State or to his friends, and reflecting that he would have to throw away his life without doing any good either to himself or others, he holds his peace, and goes his own way. He is like one who, in the storm of dust and sleet which the driving wind hurries along, retires under the shelter of a wall; and seeing the rest of mankind full of wickedness, he is content, if only he can live his own life and be pure from evil or unrighteousness, and depart in peace and good-will, with bright hopes.

Then, Adeimantus, I said, the true followers of philosophy will be just a small group: maybe a noble and well-educated person, stuck in exile due to their devotion to it, who remains dedicated in the absence of negative influences; or a lofty soul born in a poor town, whose politics he scorns and ignores; and there might be a few gifted individuals who abandon the arts, which they rightfully look down upon, to pursue philosophy;—or perhaps there are some who are held back by our friend Theages’ influence; for everything in Theages’ life conspired to steer him away from philosophy, yet poor health kept him from politics. My own experience with the inner sign is hardly worth mentioning, as rarely, if ever, has such a guide been given to anyone else. Those who belong to this small group have experienced how sweet and precious philosophy is, and have witnessed enough of the craziness of the masses; they know that no politician is truthful, nor is there any defender of justice with whom they can align and find safety. Such a person can be likened to someone who has fallen among wild animals—he won’t partake in the wrongdoing of his peers, but he can’t single-handedly withstand all their brutality. So, realizing that he wouldn’t be helpful to the State or to his friends, and reflecting that he would only squander his life without benefiting himself or others, he stays quiet and goes his own way. He is like one who, in the storm of dust and sleet driven by a fierce wind, seeks shelter behind a wall; observing that the rest of humanity is consumed by wickedness, he is content, as long as he can live his own life, remain free from evil or injustice, and depart in peace and goodwill, with bright hopes.

Yes, he said, and he will have done a great work before he departs.

Yes, he said, and he will have accomplished a great task before he leaves.

A great work—yes; but not the greatest, unless he find a State suitable to him; for in a State which is suitable to him, he will have a larger growth and be the saviour of his country, as well as of himself.

A great work—sure; but not the greatest, unless he finds a state that fits him; because in a state that suits him, he will thrive more and become the savior of both his country and himself.

The causes why philosophy is in such an evil name have now been sufficiently explained: the injustice of the charges against her has been shown—is there anything more which you wish to say?

The reasons why philosophy has such a bad reputation have now been clearly explained: the unfairness of the accusations against it has been demonstrated—do you have anything else you want to add?

Nothing more on that subject, he replied; but I should like to know which of the governments now existing is in your opinion the one adapted to her.

Nothing more on that subject, he replied; but I'd like to know which of the current governments you think is best suited for her.

Not any of them, I said; and that is precisely the accusation which I bring against them—not one of them is worthy of the philosophic nature, and hence that nature is warped and estranged;—as the exotic seed which is sown in a foreign land becomes denaturalized, and is wont to be overpowered and to lose itself in the new soil, even so this growth of philosophy, instead of persisting, degenerates and receives another character. But if philosophy ever finds in the State that perfection which she herself is, then will be seen that she is in truth divine, and that all other things, whether natures of men or institutions, are but human;—and now, I know, that you are going to ask, What that State is:

Not any of them, I said; and that’s exactly the accusation I have against them—not one of them is worthy of the true nature of philosophy, and because of that, this nature is distorted and alienated;—just like an exotic seed sown in foreign soil loses its original character and tends to get overwhelmed and disappear in the new environment, so too this philosophy fails to thrive and instead deteriorates and takes on a different nature. But if philosophy ever finds in the State the perfection that it embodies, then it will be clear that it is truly divine, while everything else, whether people or institutions, is merely human;—and now, I know you’re going to ask, What is that State:

No, he said; there you are wrong, for I was going to ask another question—whether it is the State of which we are the founders and inventors, or some other?

No, he said; you're mistaken, because I was going to ask another question—whether we are the founders and inventors of this State, or is it something else?

Yes, I replied, ours in most respects; but you may remember my saying before, that some living authority would always be required in the State having the same idea of the constitution which guided you when as legislator you were laying down the laws.

Yes, I replied, ours in most ways; but you might recall that I mentioned before that some living authority will always be needed in the State, sharing the same understanding of the constitution that guided you when you were laying down the laws as a legislator.

That was said, he replied.

He replied to that.

Yes, but not in a satisfactory manner; you frightened us by interposing objections, which certainly showed that the discussion would be long and difficult; and what still remains is the reverse of easy.

Yes, but not in a satisfying way; you scared us by throwing in objections, which clearly indicated that the conversation would be lengthy and challenging; and what's left is far from easy.

What is there remaining?

What is left?

The question how the study of philosophy may be so ordered as not to be the ruin of the State: All great attempts are attended with risk; ‘hard is the good,’ as men say.

The question of how to structure the study of philosophy so that it doesn't harm the State: All major efforts come with risks; "good things are hard to achieve," as people say.

Still, he said, let the point be cleared up, and the enquiry will then be complete.

Still, he said, let's clarify the point, and then the inquiry will be finished.

I shall not be hindered, I said, by any want of will, but, if at all, by a want of power: my zeal you may see for yourselves; and please to remark in what I am about to say how boldly and unhesitatingly I declare that States should pursue philosophy, not as they do now, but in a different spirit.

I won’t let anything stop me, I said, except maybe a lack of ability; you can see my passion for yourselves. And I want you to notice how confidently and clearly I state that countries should engage with philosophy, not the way they currently do, but with a different attitude.

In what manner?

How?

At present, I said, the students of philosophy are quite young; beginning when they are hardly past childhood, they devote only the time saved from moneymaking and housekeeping to such pursuits; and even those of them who are reputed to have most of the philosophic spirit, when they come within sight of the great difficulty of the subject, I mean dialectic, take themselves off. In after life when invited by some one else, they may, perhaps, go and hear a lecture, and about this they make much ado, for philosophy is not considered by them to be their proper business: at last, when they grow old, in most cases they are extinguished more truly than Heracleitus’ sun, inasmuch as they never light up again. (Heraclitus said that the sun was extinguished every evening and relighted every morning.)

Right now, I said, the philosophy students are quite young; starting when they're barely out of childhood, they only dedicate whatever time they can spare from making money and managing their homes to these pursuits. Even those who are thought to have the most philosophical spirit tend to back away when they encounter the major challenge of the subject, which I mean dialectic. Later in life, when someone invites them, they might attend a lecture, and they make a big deal about it, since they don't see philosophy as their main focus. Finally, as they grow old, in most cases they fade away more completely than Heraclitus' sun, since they never shine again. (Heraclitus said that the sun goes out every evening and comes back every morning.)

But what ought to be their course?

But what should their path be?

Just the opposite. In childhood and youth their study, and what philosophy they learn, should be suited to their tender years: during this period while they are growing up towards manhood, the chief and special care should be given to their bodies that they may have them to use in the service of philosophy; as life advances and the intellect begins to mature, let them increase the gymnastics of the soul; but when the strength of our citizens fails and is past civil and military duties, then let them range at will and engage in no serious labour, as we intend them to live happily here, and to crown this life with a similar happiness in another.

Just the opposite. In childhood and adolescence, their education and any philosophy they learn should match their young age. During this time, while they’re growing into adulthood, the main focus should be on their physical development so they can use their bodies in the pursuit of philosophy. As they get older and their minds start to mature, they should also increase their mental exercises. But when our citizens grow weak and can no longer fulfill civil and military responsibilities, then they should enjoy their freedom and not engage in serious work, as we want them to live happily here and to achieve similar happiness in the afterlife.

How truly in earnest you are, Socrates! he said; I am sure of that; and yet most of your hearers, if I am not mistaken, are likely to be still more earnest in their opposition to you, and will never be convinced; Thrasymachus least of all.

How genuinely serious you are, Socrates! he said; I’m sure of that; and yet most of your listeners, if I’m not mistaken, are probably even more serious in their opposition to you and will never be convinced; Thrasymachus least of all.

Do not make a quarrel, I said, between Thrasymachus and me, who have recently become friends, although, indeed, we were never enemies; for I shall go on striving to the utmost until I either convert him and other men, or do something which may profit them against the day when they live again, and hold the like discourse in another state of existence.

Don't start an argument, I said, between Thrasymachus and me, who have just become friends, although we were never really enemies; because I will continue to do my best until I either persuade him and others, or do something that might help them when they come back to life and have similar discussions in another existence.

You are speaking of a time which is not very near.

You’re talking about a time that’s not too close.

Rather, I replied, of a time which is as nothing in comparison with eternity. Nevertheless, I do not wonder that the many refuse to believe; for they have never seen that of which we are now speaking realized; they have seen only a conventional imitation of philosophy, consisting of words artificially brought together, not like these of ours having a natural unity. But a human being who in word and work is perfectly moulded, as far as he can be, into the proportion and likeness of virtue—such a man ruling in a city which bears the same image, they have never yet seen, neither one nor many of them—do you think that they ever did?

Instead, I responded, it's a period that's insignificant compared to eternity. Still, I’m not surprised that so many people refuse to believe; they’ve never witnessed the reality of what we’re discussing. They’ve only encountered a superficial version of philosophy, made up of words pieced together in an artificial way, rather than having the natural unity that our words do. But a person who is fully shaped, in both word and action, to reflect virtue—someone leading a city that embodies the same qualities—none of them have ever seen that, not one of them, have they?

No indeed.

No way.

No, my friend, and they have seldom, if ever, heard free and noble sentiments; such as men utter when they are earnestly and by every means in their power seeking after truth for the sake of knowledge, while they look coldly on the subtleties of controversy, of which the end is opinion and strife, whether they meet with them in the courts of law or in society.

No, my friend, and they have rarely, if ever, heard free and noble ideas; like those expressed by people who are genuinely and fully pursuing truth for the sake of knowledge, while they regard the complexities of argumentation—whose outcome is just opinion and conflict—with indifference, whether encountered in courtrooms or in social settings.

They are strangers, he said, to the words of which you speak.

They are unfamiliar with the words you are saying, he said.

And this was what we foresaw, and this was the reason why truth forced us to admit, not without fear and hesitation, that neither cities nor States nor individuals will ever attain perfection until the small class of philosophers whom we termed useless but not corrupt are providentially compelled, whether they will or not, to take care of the State, and until a like necessity be laid on the State to obey them; or until kings, or if not kings, the sons of kings or princes, are divinely inspired with a true love of true philosophy. That either or both of these alternatives are impossible, I see no reason to affirm: if they were so, we might indeed be justly ridiculed as dreamers and visionaries. Am I not right?

And this is what we anticipated, and this is why truth forced us to admit, not without fear and hesitation, that neither cities nor states nor individuals will ever reach perfection until the small group of philosophers we called useless but not corrupt are, whether they want to or not, required to take care of the state, and until a similar obligation is placed on the state to follow them; or until kings, or if not kings, the sons of kings or princes, are genuinely inspired by a true love for real philosophy. I see no reason to say that either of these options is impossible; if they were, we might rightfully be mocked as dreamers and visionaries. Am I not correct?

Quite right.

Absolutely.

If then, in the countless ages of the past, or at the present hour in some foreign clime which is far away and beyond our ken, the perfected philosopher is or has been or hereafter shall be compelled by a superior power to have the charge of the State, we are ready to assert to the death, that this our constitution has been, and is—yea, and will be whenever the Muse of Philosophy is queen. There is no impossibility in all this; that there is a difficulty, we acknowledge ourselves.

If, in the countless ages of the past or even now in some distant land that is beyond our understanding, the ideal philosopher has been or will be forced by a higher power to govern the State, we confidently declare that our constitution has been, is, and will be—whenever Philosophy reigns supreme. There’s nothing impossible about this; we do acknowledge that there is a challenge.

My opinion agrees with yours, he said.

I share your opinion, he said.

But do you mean to say that this is not the opinion of the multitude?

But are you saying that this isn't what most people think?

I should imagine not, he replied.

I don’t think so, he said.

O my friend, I said, do not attack the multitude: they will change their minds, if, not in an aggressive spirit, but gently and with the view of soothing them and removing their dislike of over-education, you show them your philosophers as they really are and describe as you were just now doing their character and profession, and then mankind will see that he of whom you are speaking is not such as they supposed—if they view him in this new light, they will surely change their notion of him, and answer in another strain. Who can be at enmity with one who loves them, who that is himself gentle and free from envy will be jealous of one in whom there is no jealousy? Nay, let me answer for you, that in a few this harsh temper may be found but not in the majority of mankind.

Oh my friend, I said, don’t go after the crowd: they will change their minds. If you show them your philosophers for who they really are, and explain their character and profession gently, with the intent to calm them and ease their dislike of being overly educated, they will see that the person you’re talking about isn’t what they thought. If they view him in this new light, they’ll definitely change their opinion of him and respond differently. Who can hold a grudge against someone who cares for them? Who, being kind and free from envy, would feel jealous of someone who has no jealousy? Let me assure you, while a few may have this harsh attitude, it’s not the norm for most people.

I quite agree with you, he said.

I totally agree with you, he said.

And do you not also think, as I do, that the harsh feeling which the many entertain towards philosophy originates in the pretenders, who rush in uninvited, and are always abusing them, and finding fault with them, who make persons instead of things the theme of their conversation? and nothing can be more unbecoming in philosophers than this.

And don’t you also think, like I do, that the negative attitude many people have towards philosophy comes from the impostors who intrude uninvited, constantly criticize and complain about it, and focus on people rather than ideas in their discussions? Nothing is more inappropriate for philosophers than this.

It is most unbecoming.

It's really unappealing.

For he, Adeimantus, whose mind is fixed upon true being, has surely no time to look down upon the affairs of earth, or to be filled with malice and envy, contending against men; his eye is ever directed towards things fixed and immutable, which he sees neither injuring nor injured by one another, but all in order moving according to reason; these he imitates, and to these he will, as far as he can, conform himself. Can a man help imitating that with which he holds reverential converse?

For Adeimantus, who focuses on what truly exists, definitely doesn't have time to look down on earthly matters or fill himself with malice and envy while arguing with others; his attention is always on things that are constant and unchanging, which he sees neither harming nor being harmed by each other, but all moving in harmony according to reason. He imitates these, and as much as he can, he strives to align himself with them. Can a person avoid imitating what they hold in deep respect?

Impossible.

Not possible.

And the philosopher holding converse with the divine order, becomes orderly and divine, as far as the nature of man allows; but like every one else, he will suffer from detraction.

And the philosopher who engages in discussion with the divine order becomes orderly and divine, as much as human nature allows; but like everyone else, he will face criticism.

Of course.

Of course.

And if a necessity be laid upon him of fashioning, not only himself, but human nature generally, whether in States or individuals, into that which he beholds elsewhere, will he, think you, be an unskilful artificer of justice, temperance, and every civil virtue?

And if he has to shape not just himself but also human nature overall, whether in societies or individuals, into what he sees elsewhere, do you think he will be an unskilled creator of justice, self-control, and all civic virtues?

Anything but unskilful.

Anything but clumsy.

And if the world perceives that what we are saying about him is the truth, will they be angry with philosophy? Will they disbelieve us, when we tell them that no State can be happy which is not designed by artists who imitate the heavenly pattern?

And if the world sees that what we're saying about him is true, will they be upset with philosophy? Will they doubt us when we say that no State can be happy unless it's created by artists who replicate the heavenly design?

They will not be angry if they understand, he said. But how will they draw out the plan of which you are speaking?

They won't be upset if they understand, he said. But how will they figure out the plan you’re talking about?

They will begin by taking the State and the manners of men, from which, as from a tablet, they will rub out the picture, and leave a clean surface. This is no easy task. But whether easy or not, herein will lie the difference between them and every other legislator,—they will have nothing to do either with individual or State, and will inscribe no laws, until they have either found, or themselves made, a clean surface.

They will start by examining the State and the behavior of people, and from that, like erasing a drawing from a tablet, they will clear away the current image and leave a blank slate. This is no simple job. But whether it's easy or not, this will be what sets them apart from all other lawmakers—they won't engage with individuals or the State, and they won't create any laws until they have either discovered or created a clean slate themselves.

They will be very right, he said.

They will be completely right, he said.

Having effected this, they will proceed to trace an outline of the constitution?

Having done this, they will move on to outline the constitution?

No doubt.

For sure.

And when they are filling in the work, as I conceive, they will often turn their eyes upwards and downwards: I mean that they will first look at absolute justice and beauty and temperance, and again at the human copy; and will mingle and temper the various elements of life into the image of a man; and this they will conceive according to that other image, which, when existing among men, Homer calls the form and likeness of God.

And when they’re doing their work, as I see it, they’ll often look up and down: first at perfect justice and beauty and self-control, and then at the human versions of these qualities; they’ll blend and balance the different aspects of life into the image of a person; and they’ll shape this based on that other image, which Homer refers to as the form and likeness of God when it appears among people.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And one feature they will erase, and another they will put in, until they have made the ways of men, as far as possible, agreeable to the ways of God?

And they will remove one feature and add another until they have shaped human behavior, as much as they can, to align with God's ways?

Indeed, he said, in no way could they make a fairer picture.

Indeed, he said, there was no way they could create a better image.

And now, I said, are we beginning to persuade those whom you described as rushing at us with might and main, that the painter of constitutions is such an one as we are praising; at whom they were so very indignant because to his hands we committed the State; and are they growing a little calmer at what they have just heard?

And now, I said, are we starting to convince those you described as charging at us with all their might that the creator of constitutions is actually the one we're praising; the one they were so angry at because we entrusted the State to him? Are they becoming a bit calmer after what they've just heard?

Much calmer, if there is any sense in them.

Much calmer, if there's any sense in them.

Why, where can they still find any ground for objection? Will they doubt that the philosopher is a lover of truth and being?

Why, where can they still find any reason to object? Will they question that the philosopher is someone who loves truth and existence?

They would not be so unreasonable.

They wouldn't be that unreasonable.

Or that his nature, being such as we have delineated, is akin to the highest good?

Or that his nature, being what we’ve described, is similar to the highest good?

Neither can they doubt this.

They can't doubt this either.

But again, will they tell us that such a nature, placed under favourable circumstances, will not be perfectly good and wise if any ever was? Or will they prefer those whom we have rejected?

But again, will they tell us that a nature like that, in the right circumstances, won't be perfectly good and wise if any ever was? Or will they choose those we've dismissed?

Surely not.

Definitely not.

Then will they still be angry at our saying, that, until philosophers bear rule, States and individuals will have no rest from evil, nor will this our imaginary State ever be realized?

Then will they still be upset by our saying that until philosophers are in charge, both governments and individuals will never find peace from wrongdoing, nor will this imagined State ever become a reality?

I think that they will be less angry.

I think they'll be less angry.

Shall we assume that they are not only less angry but quite gentle, and that they have been converted and for very shame, if for no other reason, cannot refuse to come to terms?

Shall we assume that they are not just less angry but actually quite gentle, and that they have changed their ways and, out of sheer shame, if for no other reason, cannot refuse to reach an agreement?

By all means, he said.

"Absolutely," he said.

Then let us suppose that the reconciliation has been effected. Will any one deny the other point, that there may be sons of kings or princes who are by nature philosophers?

Then let’s assume that the reconciliation has happened. Can anyone deny the other point that there might be sons of kings or princes who are naturally philosophers?

Surely no man, he said.

Surely no guy, he said.

And when they have come into being will any one say that they must of necessity be destroyed; that they can hardly be saved is not denied even by us; but that in the whole course of ages no single one of them can escape—who will venture to affirm this?

And when they come into existence, will anyone claim that they must inevitably be destroyed? Even we don’t deny that they can barely be saved, but who will dare to assert that throughout all ages, none of them can escape?

Who indeed!

Who, indeed!

But, said I, one is enough; let there be one man who has a city obedient to his will, and he might bring into existence the ideal polity about which the world is so incredulous.

But, I said, one is enough; let there be one man who has a city that follows his wishes, and he could create the perfect government that the world is so skeptical about.

Yes, one is enough.

Yes, one is sufficient.

The ruler may impose the laws and institutions which we have been describing, and the citizens may possibly be willing to obey them?

The ruler can enforce the laws and institutions we've been talking about, and the citizens might actually be willing to follow them.

Certainly.

Sure.

And that others should approve, of what we approve, is no miracle or impossibility?

And is it really a surprise that others agree with what we agree on?

I think not.

I don't think so.

But we have sufficiently shown, in what has preceded, that all this, if only possible, is assuredly for the best.

But we have clearly demonstrated, in what we've discussed earlier, that all of this, if it's even possible, is definitely for the best.

We have.

We have.

And now we say not only that our laws, if they could be enacted, would be for the best, but also that the enactment of them, though difficult, is not impossible.

And now we say not only that our laws, if they could be put into effect, would be for the best, but also that making them happen, though challenging, is not impossible.

Very good.

Great.

And so with pain and toil we have reached the end of one subject, but more remains to be discussed;—how and by what studies and pursuits will the saviours of the constitution be created, and at what ages are they to apply themselves to their several studies?

And so, after much hard work and struggle, we have finished discussing one topic, but there’s still more to cover—how and through what studies and activities the protectors of the constitution will be developed, and at what ages they should start focusing on their various studies?

Certainly.

Of course.

I omitted the troublesome business of the possession of women, and the procreation of children, and the appointment of the rulers, because I knew that the perfect State would be eyed with jealousy and was difficult of attainment; but that piece of cleverness was not of much service to me, for I had to discuss them all the same. The women and children are now disposed of, but the other question of the rulers must be investigated from the very beginning. We were saying, as you will remember, that they were to be lovers of their country, tried by the test of pleasures and pains, and neither in hardships, nor in dangers, nor at any other critical moment were to lose their patriotism—he was to be rejected who failed, but he who always came forth pure, like gold tried in the refiner’s fire, was to be made a ruler, and to receive honours and rewards in life and after death. This was the sort of thing which was being said, and then the argument turned aside and veiled her face; not liking to stir the question which has now arisen.

I left out the complicated issues of women's roles, having kids, and choosing leaders because I knew that an ideal society would be envied and hard to achieve. But my cleverness didn’t really help since I had to tackle those topics anyway. The matters of women and children are now settled, but we need to explore the question of rulers from the very start. As you might remember, we said that they should truly love their country, tested through pleasures and pains, and should never lose their patriotism, even in tough times or dangers. Anyone who failed this test would be rejected, but those who consistently proved themselves pure, like gold refined in the fire, would be made rulers and receive honors and rewards in life and beyond. That was the kind of discussion we were having, and then the argument shifted and turned away, hesitant to address the current issue.

I perfectly remember, he said.

I remember that perfectly, he said.

Yes, my friend, I said, and I then shrank from hazarding the bold word; but now let me dare to say—that the perfect guardian must be a philosopher.

Yes, my friend, I said, and I then hesitated to take the bold step; but now let me be brave enough to say—that the ideal guardian must be a philosopher.

Yes, he said, let that be affirmed.

Yes, he said, let that be confirmed.

And do not suppose that there will be many of them; for the gifts which were deemed by us to be essential rarely grow together; they are mostly found in shreds and patches.

And don’t think there will be many of them; the qualities we consider essential rarely come together; they are mostly found in bits and pieces.

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

You are aware, I replied, that quick intelligence, memory, sagacity, cleverness, and similar qualities, do not often grow together, and that persons who possess them and are at the same time high-spirited and magnanimous are not so constituted by nature as to live orderly and in a peaceful and settled manner; they are driven any way by their impulses, and all solid principle goes out of them.

You know, I said, that quick thinking, memory, insight, cleverness, and similar traits don’t often come together, and people who have them but are also spirited and generous aren’t usually made by nature to live calmly and in an orderly way; they are pushed around by their impulses, and all sense of solid principles slips away from them.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

On the other hand, those steadfast natures which can better be depended upon, which in a battle are impregnable to fear and immovable, are equally immovable when there is anything to be learned; they are always in a torpid state, and are apt to yawn and go to sleep over any intellectual toil.

On the other hand, those reliable personalities that can be counted on, which are fearless and unshakeable in a battle, are equally unresponsive when it comes to learning something new; they tend to stay in a sluggish state and often yawn and drift off during any mental effort.

Quite true.

So true.

And yet we were saying that both qualities were necessary in those to whom the higher education is to be imparted, and who are to share in any office or command.

And yet we were saying that both qualities are necessary in those who are to receive higher education and who are to hold any position or authority.

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And will they be a class which is rarely found?

And will they be a group that’s hard to find?

Yes, indeed.

Yep, definitely.

Then the aspirant must not only be tested in those labours and dangers and pleasures which we mentioned before, but there is another kind of probation which we did not mention—he must be exercised also in many kinds of knowledge, to see whether the soul will be able to endure the highest of all, or will faint under them, as in any other studies and exercises.

Then the candidate must not only be tested in the challenges, dangers, and pleasures we've mentioned before, but there is another type of trial we didn't mention—he must also be trained in various kinds of knowledge to see if the soul can handle the highest of them all, or if it will give up, just like in any other studies and exercises.

Yes, he said, you are quite right in testing him. But what do you mean by the highest of all knowledge?

Yes, he said, you're totally right to challenge him. But what do you mean by the ultimate knowledge?

You may remember, I said, that we divided the soul into three parts; and distinguished the several natures of justice, temperance, courage, and wisdom?

You might recall that I mentioned we divided the soul into three parts and identified the different aspects of justice, self-control, bravery, and wisdom?

Indeed, he said, if I had forgotten, I should not deserve to hear more.

Indeed, he said, if I had forgotten, I shouldn't deserve to hear more.

And do you remember the word of caution which preceded the discussion of them?

And do you remember the warning that came before the discussion of them?

To what do you refer?

What are you referring to?

We were saying, if I am not mistaken, that he who wanted to see them in their perfect beauty must take a longer and more circuitous way, at the end of which they would appear; but that we could add on a popular exposition of them on a level with the discussion which had preceded. And you replied that such an exposition would be enough for you, and so the enquiry was continued in what to me seemed to be a very inaccurate manner; whether you were satisfied or not, it is for you to say.

We were saying, if I’m not mistaken, that anyone who wanted to see them in their full beauty had to take a longer and more complicated route, after which they would finally appear; but that we could provide a simpler explanation that matched the earlier discussion. And you said that such an explanation would be sufficient for you, so we continued the conversation in what seemed to me to be a very imprecise way; whether you were satisfied or not is something only you can decide.

Yes, he said, I thought and the others thought that you gave us a fair measure of truth.

Yes, he said, I thought, and the others thought that you provided us with a fair amount of truth.

But, my friend, I said, a measure of such things which in any degree falls short of the whole truth is not fair measure; for nothing imperfect is the measure of anything, although persons are too apt to be contented and think that they need search no further.

But, my friend, I said, any assessment that doesn’t encompass the whole truth is not a fair assessment; for nothing flawed can be the standard for anything, even though people tend to be satisfied and believe that they don’t need to look any deeper.

Not an uncommon case when people are indolent.

Not an unusual situation when people are lazy.

Yes, I said; and there cannot be any worse fault in a guardian of the State and of the laws.

Yes, I said; and there can't be a worse fault in a guardian of the State and the laws.

True.

True.

The guardian then, I said, must be required to take the longer circuit, and toil at learning as well as at gymnastics, or he will never reach the highest knowledge of all which, as we were just now saying, is his proper calling.

The guardian, I said, needs to take the longer route and work hard at both learning and physical training, or he will never achieve the highest knowledge, which, as we just discussed, is his true purpose.

What, he said, is there a knowledge still higher than this—higher than justice and the other virtues?

What, he asked, is there any knowledge that is even greater than this—greater than justice and the other virtues?

Yes, I said, there is. And of the virtues too we must behold not the outline merely, as at present—nothing short of the most finished picture should satisfy us. When little things are elaborated with an infinity of pains, in order that they may appear in their full beauty and utmost clearness, how ridiculous that we should not think the highest truths worthy of attaining the highest accuracy!

Yes, I said, there is. And when it comes to virtues, we shouldn't just glimpse the outline like we do now—nothing less than the most polished depiction should be enough for us. When small things are worked on with endless effort to show their full beauty and clarity, how absurd is it that we don't consider our highest truths deserving of the utmost precision!

A right noble thought; but do you suppose that we shall refrain from asking you what is this highest knowledge?

A truly noble thought; but do you really think we'll hold back from asking you what this ultimate knowledge is?

Nay, I said, ask if you will; but I am certain that you have heard the answer many times, and now you either do not understand me or, as I rather think, you are disposed to be troublesome; for you have often been told that the idea of good is the highest knowledge, and that all other things become useful and advantageous only by their use of this. You can hardly be ignorant that of this I was about to speak, concerning which, as you have often heard me say, we know so little; and, without which, any other knowledge or possession of any kind will profit us nothing. Do you think that the possession of all other things is of any value if we do not possess the good? or the knowledge of all other things if we have no knowledge of beauty and goodness?

No, I said, ask if you want; but I’m sure you’ve heard the answer many times, and now you either don’t understand me or, as I suspect, you want to stir up trouble; because you’ve often been told that the concept of good is the highest knowledge, and that everything else becomes useful and beneficial only through its connection to this. You can hardly be unaware that this is what I was going to talk about, regarding which, as you’ve often heard me say, we know so little; and without it, any other knowledge or possession won’t benefit us at all. Do you really think that having everything else matters if we don’t have the good? Or knowing everything else is valuable if we don’t understand beauty and goodness?

Assuredly not.

Definitely not.

You are further aware that most people affirm pleasure to be the good, but the finer sort of wits say it is knowledge?

You also know that most people believe pleasure is the ultimate good, but the more insightful minds argue that it's knowledge?

Yes.

Yeah.

And you are aware too that the latter cannot explain what they mean by knowledge, but are obliged after all to say knowledge of the good?

And you also know that they can't really explain what they mean by knowledge, but they still have to say it's knowledge of the good?

How ridiculous!

So ridiculous!

Yes, I said, that they should begin by reproaching us with our ignorance of the good, and then presume our knowledge of it—for the good they define to be knowledge of the good, just as if we understood them when they use the term ‘good’—this is of course ridiculous.

Yes, I said that they should start by criticizing us for not understanding what is good, and then assume that we do know what it is—because they define the good as knowledge of the good, as if we actually grasp what they mean when they use the term 'good'—this is obviously absurd.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

And those who make pleasure their good are in equal perplexity; for they are compelled to admit that there are bad pleasures as well as good.

And those who see pleasure as their ultimate good are just as confused; they have to accept that there are both bad pleasures and good ones.

Certainly.

Sure.

And therefore to acknowledge that bad and good are the same?

And so, should we really accept that bad and good are the same?

True.

True.

There can be no doubt about the numerous difficulties in which this question is involved.

There’s no doubt about the many challenges this question brings.

There can be none.

There can’t be any.

Further, do we not see that many are willing to do or to have or to seem to be what is just and honourable without the reality; but no one is satisfied with the appearance of good—the reality is what they seek; in the case of the good, appearance is despised by every one.

Furthermore, don’t we notice that many are ready to do or have or appear to be what is right and respectable without actually being so; but no one is content with just the appearance of goodness—the real thing is what they want; in the case of goodness, everyone looks down on mere appearances.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Of this then, which every soul of man pursues and makes the end of all his actions, having a presentiment that there is such an end, and yet hesitating because neither knowing the nature nor having the same assurance of this as of other things, and therefore losing whatever good there is in other things,—of a principle such and so great as this ought the best men in our State, to whom everything is entrusted, to be in the darkness of ignorance?

Of this thing that every person chases and makes the goal of all their actions, having a sense that there is such a goal, yet hesitating because they neither understand its nature nor have the same confidence in it as they do in other things, and as a result losing whatever goodness exists in other things—should the best people in our society, to whom everything is entrusted, remain in the dark about this ignorance?

Certainly not, he said.

Definitely not, he said.

I am sure, I said, that he who does not know how the beautiful and the just are likewise good will be but a sorry guardian of them; and I suspect that no one who is ignorant of the good will have a true knowledge of them.

I’m sure, I said, that anyone who doesn’t understand how beauty and justice are also good will be a poor protector of them; and I suspect that no one who is clueless about what is good will truly understand them.

That, he said, is a shrewd suspicion of yours.

That's a clever suspicion you have.

And if we only have a guardian who has this knowledge our State will be perfectly ordered?

And if we only have a guardian who knows this, our state will be perfectly organized?

Of course, he replied; but I wish that you would tell me whether you conceive this supreme principle of the good to be knowledge or pleasure, or different from either?

Of course, he replied; but I wish you would tell me whether you think this ultimate principle of goodness is knowledge, pleasure, or something different from both?

Aye, I said, I knew all along that a fastidious gentleman like you would not be contented with the thoughts of other people about these matters.

Yeah, I said, I knew all along that a particular guy like you wouldn't be satisfied with other people's opinions on these things.

True, Socrates; but I must say that one who like you has passed a lifetime in the study of philosophy should not be always repeating the opinions of others, and never telling his own.

True, Socrates; but I have to say that someone like you, who has spent a lifetime studying philosophy, shouldn’t just keep repeating other people’s opinions and never share your own.

Well, but has any one a right to say positively what he does not know?

Well, does anyone really have the right to say for sure what they don't know?

Not, he said, with the assurance of positive certainty; he has no right to do that: but he may say what he thinks, as a matter of opinion.

Not, he said, with complete confidence; he has no right to do that: but he can express what he thinks, as an opinion.

And do you not know, I said, that all mere opinions are bad, and the best of them blind? You would not deny that those who have any true notion without intelligence are only like blind men who feel their way along the road?

And don't you know, I said, that all mere opinions are bad, and the best of them are still blind? You wouldn't deny that those who have any real understanding without insight are just like blind people trying to find their way along the road?

Very true.

So true.

And do you wish to behold what is blind and crooked and base, when others will tell you of brightness and beauty?

And do you want to look at what is blind, twisted, and low, while others talk about light and beauty?

Still, I must implore you, Socrates, said Glaucon, not to turn away just as you are reaching the goal; if you will only give such an explanation of the good as you have already given of justice and temperance and the other virtues, we shall be satisfied.

Still, I have to urge you, Socrates, said Glaucon, not to back off just when you're about to reach the finish line; if you could just explain the good like you've already done with justice, temperance, and the other virtues, we would be satisfied.

Yes, my friend, and I shall be at least equally satisfied, but I cannot help fearing that I shall fail, and that my indiscreet zeal will bring ridicule upon me. No, sweet sirs, let us not at present ask what is the actual nature of the good, for to reach what is now in my thoughts would be an effort too great for me. But of the child of the good who is likest him, I would fain speak, if I could be sure that you wished to hear—otherwise, not.

Yes, my friend, I will at least be just as happy, but I can’t shake the fear that I might fail, and that my overly enthusiastic approach will make me look foolish. No, dear friends, let’s not ask right now about the true nature of the good, because reaching what I’m thinking about would be too much for me. But if I could be sure you want to hear about the child of the good who is most like him, I would love to speak about it—otherwise, I won’t.

By all means, he said, tell us about the child, and you shall remain in our debt for the account of the parent.

“Of course,” he said, “tell us about the child, and you’ll owe us for the information about the parent.”

I do indeed wish, I replied, that I could pay, and you receive, the account of the parent, and not, as now, of the offspring only; take, however, this latter by way of interest, and at the same time have a care that I do not render a false account, although I have no intention of deceiving you.

I really do wish, I said, that I could settle the bill for the parent instead of just for the child like we’re doing now; however, take this one instead as interest, and just make sure I don’t give you a misleading account, even though I have no intention of tricking you.

Yes, we will take all the care that we can: proceed.

Yes, we will do our best to be careful: let's go.

Yes, I said, but I must first come to an understanding with you, and remind you of what I have mentioned in the course of this discussion, and at many other times.

Yes, I said, but I need to come to an agreement with you first and remind you of what I've brought up during this conversation and many times before.

What?

What?

The old story, that there is a many beautiful and a many good, and so of other things which we describe and define; to all of them the term ‘many’ is applied.

The old story goes that there are many beautiful things and many good things, as well as other things we describe and define; to all of them, we use the term 'many.'

True, he said.

For sure, he said.

And there is an absolute beauty and an absolute good, and of other things to which the term ‘many’ is applied there is an absolute; for they may be brought under a single idea, which is called the essence of each.

And there is a perfect beauty and a perfect good, and for other things referred to as ‘many,’ there is a perfect form as well; because they can all be grouped under a single concept, which is known as the essence of each.

Very true.

Very true.

The many, as we say, are seen but not known, and the ideas are known but not seen.

The many, as we say, are visible but not understood, and the ideas are understood but not visible.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And what is the organ with which we see the visible things?

And what is the organ that allows us to see what's visible?

The sight, he said.

The view, he said.

And with the hearing, I said, we hear, and with the other senses perceive the other objects of sense?

And with hearing, I said, we hear, and with our other senses, we perceive the other things we sense?

True.

True.

But have you remarked that sight is by far the most costly and complex piece of workmanship which the artificer of the senses ever contrived?

But have you noticed that sight is easily the most expensive and complicated piece of craftsmanship that the creator of the senses ever designed?

No, I never have, he said.

No, I never have, he said.

Then reflect; has the ear or voice need of any third or additional nature in order that the one may be able to hear and the other to be heard?

Then think about it; does hearing or speaking require any third or extra element for one to hear and the other to be heard?

Nothing of the sort.

Not at all.

No, indeed, I replied; and the same is true of most, if not all, the other senses—you would not say that any of them requires such an addition?

No, I replied; and the same goes for most, if not all, of the other senses—you wouldn't say that any of them needs such an addition?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

But you see that without the addition of some other nature there is no seeing or being seen?

But you see that without the addition of something else, there is no seeing or being seen?

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

Sight being, as I conceive, in the eyes, and he who has eyes wanting to see; colour being also present in them, still unless there be a third nature specially adapted to the purpose, the owner of the eyes will see nothing and the colours will be invisible.

Seeing, as I understand it, happens through the eyes, and anyone with eyes wants to see; color is also found in them, but unless there is a third element specially suited for this purpose, the person with the eyes will see nothing and the colors will remain unseen.

Of what nature are you speaking?

Of what kind are you talking about?

Of that which you term light, I replied.

Of what you call light, I replied.

True, he said.

True, he said.

Noble, then, is the bond which links together sight and visibility, and great beyond other bonds by no small difference of nature; for light is their bond, and light is no ignoble thing?

Noble, then, is the connection that ties together sight and visibility, and it stands out among other connections by a significant difference in nature; for light is their connection, and light is not a trivial thing.

Nay, he said, the reverse of ignoble.

No, he said, quite the opposite of dishonorable.

And which, I said, of the gods in heaven would you say was the lord of this element? Whose is that light which makes the eye to see perfectly and the visible to appear?

And which of the gods in heaven would you say is the lord of this element? Whose is that light that lets the eye see clearly and makes things visible?

You mean the sun, as you and all mankind say.

You mean the sun, like you and everyone else say.

May not the relation of sight to this deity be described as follows?

May we describe the connection between sight and this deity as follows?

How?

How?

Neither sight nor the eye in which sight resides is the sun?

Neither sight nor the eye that perceives sight is the sun?

No.

No.

Yet of all the organs of sense the eye is the most like the sun?

Yet of all the sense organs, the eye is the closest to the sun.

By far the most like.

Definitely the most similar.

And the power which the eye possesses is a sort of effluence which is dispensed from the sun?

And the power that the eye has is a kind of energy that comes from the sun?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Then the sun is not sight, but the author of sight who is recognised by sight?

Then the sun isn't just something we see; it's the source of sight that we understand through seeing?

True, he said.

True, he said.

And this is he whom I call the child of the good, whom the good begat in his own likeness, to be in the visible world, in relation to sight and the things of sight, what the good is in the intellectual world in relation to mind and the things of mind:

And this is the one I refer to as the child of the good, whom the good created in his own image, to be in the visible world, in relation to sight and the things we see, what the good is in the intellectual world in relation to the mind and the things of the mind:

Will you be a little more explicit? he said.

"Can you be a bit more clear?" he said.

Why, you know, I said, that the eyes, when a person directs them towards objects on which the light of day is no longer shining, but the moon and stars only, see dimly, and are nearly blind; they seem to have no clearness of vision in them?

Why, you know, I said, that the eyes, when a person looks at things that are no longer lit by the sunlight but only by the moon and stars, see poorly and are almost blind; they seem to have no clarity of vision in them?

Very true.

Absolutely true.

But when they are directed towards objects on which the sun shines, they see clearly and there is sight in them?

But when they look at things that the sun shines on, they see clearly and have sight?

Certainly.

Sure.

And the soul is like the eye: when resting upon that on which truth and being shine, the soul perceives and understands, and is radiant with intelligence; but when turned towards the twilight of becoming and perishing, then she has opinion only, and goes blinking about, and is first of one opinion and then of another, and seems to have no intelligence?

And the soul is like the eye: when it focuses on what embodies truth and existence, the soul sees and understands, shining with insight; but when it turns towards the blurry realm of change and decay, it only forms opinions, wandering around, unsure, landing on one belief and then switching to another, seeming utterly lost in understanding.

Just so.

Exactly.

Now, that which imparts truth to the known and the power of knowing to the knower is what I would have you term the idea of good, and this you will deem to be the cause of science, and of truth in so far as the latter becomes the subject of knowledge; beautiful too, as are both truth and knowledge, you will be right in esteeming this other nature as more beautiful than either; and, as in the previous instance, light and sight may be truly said to be like the sun, and yet not to be the sun, so in this other sphere, science and truth may be deemed to be like the good, but not the good; the good has a place of honour yet higher.

What gives truth to what we know and the ability to know to the knower is what I want you to call the idea of good. You will see this as the reason for science and for truth as it pertains to knowledge. Truth and knowledge are both beautiful, but you'll be right to consider this other nature even more beautiful. Just like light and sight can be compared to the sun but are not the sun itself, in the same way, science and truth can be seen as similar to the good but are not the good; the good holds an even higher place of honor.

What a wonder of beauty that must be, he said, which is the author of science and truth, and yet surpasses them in beauty; for you surely cannot mean to say that pleasure is the good?

What a beautiful thing that must be, he said, which is the source of science and truth, and yet is more beautiful than both; because you can't really mean to say that pleasure is the ultimate good?

God forbid, I replied; but may I ask you to consider the image in another point of view?

God forbid, I replied; but can I ask you to consider the image from another perspective?

In what point of view?

What point of view?

You would say, would you not, that the sun is not only the author of visibility in all visible things, but of generation and nourishment and growth, though he himself is not generation?

You would say, wouldn't you, that the sun is not only the source of visibility in all things we can see, but also of creation, sustenance, and growth, even though it itself is not the source of creation?

Certainly.

Sure.

In like manner the good may be said to be not only the author of knowledge to all things known, but of their being and essence, and yet the good is not essence, but far exceeds essence in dignity and power.

In the same way, we can say that the good is not just the source of knowledge for everything known, but also of their existence and essence. However, the good is not essence itself; it surpasses essence in dignity and power.

Glaucon said, with a ludicrous earnestness: By the light of heaven, how amazing!

Glaucon said, with a seriously ridiculous tone: By the light of heaven, how incredible!

Yes, I said, and the exaggeration may be set down to you; for you made me utter my fancies.

Yes, I said, and you can take the blame for the exaggeration; it was you who made me share my thoughts.

And pray continue to utter them; at any rate let us hear if there is anything more to be said about the similitude of the sun.

And please keep talking; at the very least, let us know if there's anything else to say about the similarity of the sun.

Yes, I said, there is a great deal more.

Yes, I said, there’s a lot more.

Then omit nothing, however slight.

Understood! Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.

I will do my best, I said; but I should think that a great deal will have to be omitted.

I’ll do my best, I said; but I think a lot will have to be left out.

I hope not, he said.

I hope not, he replied.

You have to imagine, then, that there are two ruling powers, and that one of them is set over the intellectual world, the other over the visible. I do not say heaven, lest you should fancy that I am playing upon the name (‘ourhanoz, orhatoz’). May I suppose that you have this distinction of the visible and intelligible fixed in your mind?

You need to picture that there are two ruling powers: one governs the intellectual world and the other oversees the visible world. I'm not referring to heaven, so don’t think I'm just playing with words. Can I assume that you understand this distinction between the visible and the intelligible?

I have.

I've.

Now take a line which has been cut into two unequal parts, and divide each of them again in the same proportion, and suppose the two main divisions to answer, one to the visible and the other to the intelligible, and then compare the subdivisions in respect of their clearness and want of clearness, and you will find that the first section in the sphere of the visible consists of images. And by images I mean, in the first place, shadows, and in the second place, reflections in water and in solid, smooth and polished bodies and the like: Do you understand?

Now take a line that's been cut into two unequal parts and divide each part again in the same proportion. Imagine that the two main divisions correspond to the visible and the intelligible, and then compare the subdivisions in terms of their clarity and lack of clarity. You'll notice that the first section in the realm of the visible consists of images. And by images, I mean shadows first, and then reflections in water and in solid, smooth, polished surfaces, and similar things. Do you get it?

Yes, I understand.

Yep, I get it.

Imagine, now, the other section, of which this is only the resemblance, to include the animals which we see, and everything that grows or is made.

Imagine the other part, which this is just a likeness of, to include the animals we see and everything that grows or is created.

Very good.

Great!

Would you not admit that both the sections of this division have different degrees of truth, and that the copy is to the original as the sphere of opinion is to the sphere of knowledge?

Would you agree that both parts of this division have different levels of truth, and that a copy is to the original as the realm of opinion is to the realm of knowledge?

Most undoubtedly.

Definitely.

Next proceed to consider the manner in which the sphere of the intellectual is to be divided.

Next, let's consider how to divide the realm of the intellectual.

In what manner?

How?

Thus:—There are two subdivisions, in the lower of which the soul uses the figures given by the former division as images; the enquiry can only be hypothetical, and instead of going upwards to a principle descends to the other end; in the higher of the two, the soul passes out of hypotheses, and goes up to a principle which is above hypotheses, making no use of images as in the former case, but proceeding only in and through the ideas themselves.

Thus:—There are two subdivisions. In the lower one, the soul uses the concepts provided by the first division as images; the inquiry can only be hypothetical, and instead of moving upward to a principle, it descends to the other end. In the higher of the two, the soul moves beyond hypotheses and ascends to a principle that is above them, not relying on images as in the first case, but engaging only with the ideas themselves.

I do not quite understand your meaning, he said.

I don't really get what you mean, he said.

Then I will try again; you will understand me better when I have made some preliminary remarks. You are aware that students of geometry, arithmetic, and the kindred sciences assume the odd and the even and the figures and three kinds of angles and the like in their several branches of science; these are their hypotheses, which they and every body are supposed to know, and therefore they do not deign to give any account of them either to themselves or others; but they begin with them, and go on until they arrive at last, and in a consistent manner, at their conclusion?

Then I’ll give it another shot; you’ll understand me better once I share a few initial thoughts. You know that students of geometry, arithmetic, and related fields take for granted concepts like odd and even numbers, shapes, and the three types of angles in their studies; these are their assumptions, which they and everyone else is expected to know, so they don’t bother explaining them to themselves or others; instead, they start with these ideas and continue on until they reach their conclusions in a logical way.

Yes, he said, I know.

Yeah, he said, I know.

And do you not know also that although they make use of the visible forms and reason about them, they are thinking not of these, but of the ideals which they resemble; not of the figures which they draw, but of the absolute square and the absolute diameter, and so on—the forms which they draw or make, and which have shadows and reflections in water of their own, are converted by them into images, but they are really seeking to behold the things themselves, which can only be seen with the eye of the mind?

And don’t you also realize that even though they use visible forms and think about them, they’re not actually focused on those forms? Instead, they’re thinking about the ideals they represent; not about the shapes they create, but about the perfect square and the perfect diameter, and so on. The forms they draw or create, which also cast shadows and reflections in water, are turned into images by them, but what they really want to see are the things themselves, which can only be perceived with the mind’s eye?

That is true.

That's true.

And of this kind I spoke as the intelligible, although in the search after it the soul is compelled to use hypotheses; not ascending to a first principle, because she is unable to rise above the region of hypothesis, but employing the objects of which the shadows below are resemblances in their turn as images, they having in relation to the shadows and reflections of them a greater distinctness, and therefore a higher value.

And this is what I meant by the intelligible, even though in searching for it, the soul has to rely on hypotheses; not reaching a first principle because it can't go beyond the level of hypothesis, but using the objects that the shadows below are representations of as images, which have a clearer and therefore more valuable relationship to the shadows and reflections.

I understand, he said, that you are speaking of the province of geometry and the sister arts.

I get it, he said, that you're talking about the field of geometry and the related arts.

And when I speak of the other division of the intelligible, you will understand me to speak of that other sort of knowledge which reason herself attains by the power of dialectic, using the hypotheses not as first principles, but only as hypotheses—that is to say, as steps and points of departure into a world which is above hypotheses, in order that she may soar beyond them to the first principle of the whole; and clinging to this and then to that which depends on this, by successive steps she descends again without the aid of any sensible object, from ideas, through ideas, and in ideas she ends.

And when I talk about the other part of what we can understand, you’ll know I’m referring to the different kind of knowledge that reason achieves through dialectic thinking, using hypotheses not as starting points, but merely as stepping stones. This means going beyond those hypotheses to reach the foundational truth of everything. By holding on to this truth and then to what follows from it, reason can move step by step back down, all without relying on any physical objects, starting from ideas, through ideas, and finally arriving at ideas.

I understand you, he replied; not perfectly, for you seem to me to be describing a task which is really tremendous; but, at any rate, I understand you to say that knowledge and being, which the science of dialectic contemplates, are clearer than the notions of the arts, as they are termed, which proceed from hypotheses only: these are also contemplated by the understanding, and not by the senses: yet, because they start from hypotheses and do not ascend to a principle, those who contemplate them appear to you not to exercise the higher reason upon them, although when a first principle is added to them they are cognizable by the higher reason. And the habit which is concerned with geometry and the cognate sciences I suppose that you would term understanding and not reason, as being intermediate between opinion and reason.

"I get what you're saying," he replied. "Not completely, since it seems to me you're describing a really huge task; but, at least, I understand you to mean that knowledge and existence, which dialectic science considers, are clearer than the ideas of the arts, as they're called, which are based solely on hypotheses. These are also understood by the mind, not the senses. However, because they begin with hypotheses and don’t move up to a principle, those who study them seem to you not to be using the higher reasoning, although when a first principle is added, they can be understood by that higher reasoning. And I guess you would call the skill related to geometry and similar sciences 'understanding' instead of 'reason,' since it’s something between opinion and reason."

You have quite conceived my meaning, I said; and now, corresponding to these four divisions, let there be four faculties in the soul—reason answering to the highest, understanding to the second, faith (or conviction) to the third, and perception of shadows to the last—and let there be a scale of them, and let us suppose that the several faculties have clearness in the same degree that their objects have truth.

You’ve understood my point, I said; so, corresponding to these four divisions, let’s assign four faculties in the soul—reason for the highest, understanding for the second, faith (or conviction) for the third, and perception of shadows for the last—and let’s establish a hierarchy among them, assuming that each faculty has clarity in proportion to the truth of its objects.

I understand, he replied, and give my assent, and accept your arrangement.

I understand, he replied, and I'm on board with your plan.

BOOK VII.

And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:—Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

And now, I said, let me illustrate how much our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:—Check this out! Picture human beings living in an underground cave, which has an opening that faces the light and extends across the cave; they have been there since childhood, with their legs and necks chained so they can’t move, only able to see straight ahead, unable to turn their heads because of the chains. Above and behind them, a fire is burning at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners, there’s a raised path; and if you look, you'll see a low wall built along the path, similar to the screen that puppet shows have in front of them, over which they display the puppets.

I see.

Got it.

And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

And do you see, I said, guys walking by the wall carrying all kinds of containers, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and different materials, which can be seen over the wall? Some of them are talking, while others are quiet.

You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.

You’ve shown me a weird image, and they are odd prisoners.

Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

Like us, I replied; and they only see their own shadows, or each other's shadows, which the fire casts on the opposite wall of the cave?

True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

True, he said; how could they see anything but shadows if they were never allowed to turn their heads?

And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

And would they only see the shadows of the things being carried in the same way?

Yes, he said.

Yep, he said.

And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?

And if they could talk to each other, wouldn't they think they were naming what was really in front of them?

Very true.

So true.

And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

And let's say the prison had an echo from the other side, wouldn't the prisoners likely think that when someone walked by and spoke, the voice they heard came from the shadow passing by?

No question, he replied.

No doubt, he replied.

To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

To them, I said, the truth would be nothing more than the shadows of the images.

That is certain.

That's for sure.

And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision,—what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them,—will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

And now look again and see what will naturally happen if the prisoners are freed and realize their mistake. At first, when one of them is released and suddenly has to stand up, turn around, walk, and look at the light, he will feel sharp pains; the brightness will overwhelm him, and he won’t be able to see the realities that he only saw as shadows before. Then imagine someone telling him that what he saw before was an illusion, but now, as he gets closer to reality and his eyes shift towards something more real, he’ll have a clearer view—what will he say? And you can picture his teacher pointing to the objects as they pass and asking him to name them—won’t he be confused? Won’t he think that the shadows he used to see are more real than the objects he’s being shown now?

Far truer.

Much truer.

And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

And if he’s forced to look directly at the light, won’t he feel a pain in his eyes that makes him turn away and seek refuge in the things he can see, which he will believe are actually clearer than what’s being shown to him now?

True, he said.

True, he said.

And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he is forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

And let's say again that he is unwillingly pulled up a steep and rough hill and kept there until he's made to face the sun directly. Isn't he likely to feel hurt and annoyed? As he gets closer to the light, his eyes will be blinded, and he won't be able to see anything that we now call real.

Not all in a moment, he said.

Not everything happens at once, he said.

He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

He will need to get used to seeing the world above. At first, he will notice the shadows most clearly, then the reflections of people and other things in the water, and finally the actual objects themselves. After that, he will look at the light of the moon and the stars and the glittering sky; and he will see the night sky and the stars more clearly than the sun or the daylight.

Certainly.

Sure.

Last of all he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

Finally, he will be able to see the sun, not just its reflections in the water, but the sun in its true position, not in someone else's, and he will appreciate it for what it is.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?

He will then go on to argue that he is the one who provides the seasons and the years, and is the guardian of everything in the visible world, and in a way, the reason for all things that he and his companions have been used to seeing?

Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.

Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then think about him.

And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

And when he thought about his old home, and the knowledge from the den and his fellow prisoners, do you really think he wouldn’t feel grateful about the change and feel sorry for them?

Certainly, he would.

Sure, he would.

And if they were in the habit of conferring honours among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honours and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,

And if they usually gave each other awards for those who were the quickest to notice the passing shadows and to point out which ones went first, which ones came after, and which were together; and who were therefore best at predicting the future, do you think he would care about those awards and accolades, or envy those who had them? Wouldn’t he just say with Homer,

‘Better to be the poor servant of a poor master,’

'It's better to be a poor servant to a poor master,'

and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?

and put up with anything, rather than think like they do and live their way?

Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.

Yes, he said, I think he would rather endure anything than hold onto these false ideas and live like this.

Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?

Imagine again, I said, someone suddenly stepping out of the sun to find himself back in his old place; wouldn’t he be sure to have his eyes full of darkness?

To be sure, he said.

For sure, he said.

And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable), would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never left the cave, while his vision was still weak, and before his eyes had become adjusted (and the time it would take to get used to this new way of seeing could be quite long), wouldn't he look foolish? People would say that he went up and came down without his sight; that it would be better not to even think about going up at all. And if anyone tried to free another and lead him up to the light, they would just have to catch the person who did it, and they would be put to death.

No question, he said.

No doubt, he said.

This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed—whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

You can now add this whole allegory, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument. The prison is the world of sight, the light from the fire is the sun, and you won't misunderstand me if you interpret the journey upwards as the soul's ascent into the intellectual realm, according to my humble belief, which I have shared at your request—whether rightly or wrongly, only God knows. But, whether it's true or false, I believe that in the realm of knowledge, the concept of good appears last and is seen only with effort. When it is seen, it's understood to be the universal source of everything beautiful and right, the parent of light and the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual realm. This is the power that anyone who wants to act rationally, whether in public or private life, must focus on.

I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you.

"I agree," he said, "as much as I can understand you."

Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.

Moreover, I said, you shouldn’t be surprised that those who experience this divine vision don't want to return to human concerns; their souls are constantly eager to ascend to the higher realm where they long to reside, and this longing is perfectly natural, if we can trust our allegory.

Yes, very natural.

Yeah, super natural.

And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavouring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice?

And is there anything surprising about someone who moves from deep spiritual thoughts to the flawed behavior of humans, acting in a foolish way? If, while his eyes are still adjusting to the darkness, he's forced to argue in court or elsewhere about the representations or shadows of justice, trying to satisfy the ideas of those who have never witnessed true justice?

Anything but surprising, he replied.

Not surprising at all, he replied.

Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind’s eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter life, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den.

Anyone with common sense will realize that the confusion of sight comes from two sources: either stepping out of the light or moving into the light, which applies to the mind’s eye just as much as the physical eye. When he sees someone whose vision is troubled and unclear, he won't be quick to laugh; instead, he will first consider whether that person has just come from a brighter existence and is struggling to see because they’re not used to the dark, or if they have turned from the darkness into the light and are overwhelmed by too much brightness. He will see the first as fortunate in their condition and feel compassion for the latter. However, if he chooses to laugh at the person coming from below into the light, his laughter will hold more reason than that directed at someone returning from the light into the shadows.

That, he said, is a very just distinction.

That, he said, is a very fair distinction.

But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.

But then, if I'm right, some education professors must be wrong when they claim they can insert knowledge into a soul that didn't have it before, like giving sight to blind eyes.

They undoubtedly say this, he replied.

They definitely say that, he replied.

Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.

Our argument shows that the ability to learn is already present in the soul; and just as the eye can't shift from darkness to light without the whole body, the tool of knowledge can only, through the movement of the entire soul, transition from the world of change to the world of existence, gradually learning to bear the sight of existence and of the brightest and best form of existence, or in other words, the good.

Very true.

Absolutely.

And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth?

And isn't there a way to help people change their minds in the easiest and fastest way possible? Not by giving them the ability to see, since they already have that, but by redirecting their gaze away from falsehoods and towards the truth?

Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed.

Yes, he said, such an art can be assumed.

And whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities, for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise, the virtue of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains, and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable; or, on the other hand, hurtful and useless. Did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue—how eager he is, how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end; he is the reverse of blind, but his keen eye-sight is forced into the service of evil, and he is mischievous in proportion to his cleverness?

And while the other so-called virtues of the soul seem similar to physical traits, since they can be developed later through habits and practice even if they aren't originally inherent, the virtue of wisdom, more than anything else, has a divine aspect that always remains. This virtue can be transformed to become useful and beneficial, or, conversely, harmful and pointless. Have you ever noticed the sharp intelligence shining from the eyes of a clever trickster? Look how eager they are, how clearly their small-mindedness shows them the path to their goal; they aren't blind at all, but their sharp vision is used for wrongdoing, and their mischief grows in direct proportion to their cleverness.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

But what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth; and they had been severed from those sensual pleasures, such as eating and drinking, which, like leaden weights, were attached to them at their birth, and which drag them down and turn the vision of their souls upon the things that are below—if, I say, they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction, the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now.

But what if there had been a removal of those desires in their youth; and they had been cut off from those sensual pleasures, like eating and drinking, which, like heavy weights, were tied to them at birth, dragging them down and making them focus on lesser things—if, I say, they had been freed from these limitations and directed the other way, that same ability within them would see the truth just as clearly as they see what they are focused on now.

Very likely.

Highly likely.

Yes, I said; and there is another thing which is likely, or rather a necessary inference from what has preceded, that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth, nor yet those who never make an end of their education, will be able ministers of State; not the former, because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions, private as well as public; nor the latter, because they will not act at all except upon compulsion, fancying that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blest.

Yes, I said; and there’s another point that’s likely, or rather a necessary conclusion based on what’s come before: neither the uneducated and uninformed about the truth, nor those who never finish their education, will be able to serve as ministers of State. The former won’t be able to because they lack a clear sense of duty that guides all their actions, both private and public; and the latter won’t act at all unless forced, believing they already live in the islands of the blessed.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all—they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now.

Then, I said, our job as the founders of the State will be to make sure the best thinkers gain the knowledge we’ve already established as the most important—they need to keep rising until they reach the good; but once they’ve reached that level and seen enough, we can’t let them behave the way they do now.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the den, and partake of their labours and honours, whether they are worth having or not.

I mean that they stay in the upper world: but this can't be allowed; they need to go back down among the prisoners in the cave and share in their work and recognition, whether it's deserved or not.

But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a worse life, when they might have a better?

But isn't this unfair? he said; should we make their lives worse when they could have a better one?

You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not to please themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State.

You’ve forgotten again, my friend, I said, the purpose of the lawmaker, who didn’t intend for any one group in the State to be happier than the others; the goal was the happiness of the entire State. He kept the citizens united through persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of each other; for this reason, he created them, not to serve their own interests, but to be his tools in maintaining the State.

True, he said, I had forgotten.

True, he said, I had totally forgotten.

Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State, which is also yours, will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst.

Listen, Glaucon, there’s nothing wrong with pushing our philosophers to take care of others. We can explain to them that in other societies, people like them don’t have to get involved in politics, and that makes sense because they develop on their own, and the government prefers it that way. Since they taught themselves, they can’t be expected to feel grateful for an education they never received. But we brought you into this world to be leaders of the community, rulers of yourselves and your fellow citizens, and we’ve educated you much better than they have been educated, so you’re more prepared to take on this dual responsibility. Therefore, when it’s your turn, you need to go down to the general underground home and learn to see in the dark. Once you develop that ability, you’ll see a thousand times clearer than those who live in the cave, and you’ll understand what all the images are and what they represent, because you’ve seen beauty, justice, and goodness in their true forms. This way, our State, which is also yours, will be real and not just a dream, and it will be run differently from other States, where people only argue about shadows and get caught up in the struggle for power, thinking that’s a great achievement. In reality, the best-governed State is the one where the rulers are most reluctant to rule, while the State where they are most eager to govern is the worst.

Quite true, he replied.

Very true, he replied.

And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light?

And will our students, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn in the duties of the State, when they can spend most of their time together in the heavenly light?

Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State.

Impossible, he replied; because they are just men, and the orders we place upon them are fair; there’s no doubt that each one of them will assume their role out of strict necessity, not like our current leaders of the State.

Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after their own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.

Yes, my friend, I said; and that’s the main point. You need to create a different and better life for your future leaders than that of just being a ruler, and only then can you have a well-organized State; because in the State that provides this, those who will lead are truly wealthy, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the real treasures of life. On the other hand, if they enter public service poor and hungry for their own gain, believing that they can seize the greatest good from it, there will be no order; they will end up competing for positions, and the civil and domestic conflicts that arise from this will lead to the downfall of the rulers themselves and the entire State.

Most true, he replied.

Most definitely, he replied.

And the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any other?

And the only life that looks down on political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any others?

Indeed, I do not, he said.

I really don’t, he said.

And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight.

And those in charge shouldn't be too attached to their role, right? Because if they are, there will be competing interests, and they'll end up clashing.

No question.

No doubt.

Who then are those whom we shall compel to be guardians? Surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of State, and by whom the State is best administered, and who at the same time have other honours and another and a better life than that of politics?

Who are we going to choose as guardians? They will surely be the people who are the most knowledgeable about government matters, who manage the state well, and who also have other honors and a better life outside of politics.

They are the men, and I will choose them, he replied.

They are the guys, and I'm going to choose them, he replied.

And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light,—as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?

And now let’s think about how such guardians will be created and how they can be taken from darkness to light—just as some are said to have risen from the underworld to the gods?

By all means, he replied.

Sure thing, he replied.

The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell (In allusion to a game in which two parties fled or pursued according as an oyster-shell which was thrown into the air fell with the dark or light side uppermost.), but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy?

The process, I said, isn't just flipping over an oyster shell (referring to a game where two teams run after an oyster shell thrown in the air, depending on whether it lands with the dark or light side up), but rather the transformation of a soul moving from a day that's barely better than night to the true light of existence, that is, the rise from below, which we claim to be true philosophy?

Quite so.

Exactly.

And should we not enquire what sort of knowledge has the power of effecting such a change?

And shouldn't we ask what kind of knowledge has the ability to bring about such a change?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

What sort of knowledge is there which would draw the soul from becoming to being? And another consideration has just occurred to me: You will remember that our young men are to be warrior athletes?

What kind of knowledge exists that could elevate the soul from becoming to being? And another thought just came to me: You’ll recall that our young men are supposed to be warrior athletes?

Yes, that was said.

Yes, that was mentioned.

Then this new kind of knowledge must have an additional quality?

Then this new kind of knowledge must have an extra quality?

What quality?

What type of quality?

Usefulness in war.

Usefulness in warfare.

Yes, if possible.

Yes, if possible.

There were two parts in our former scheme of education, were there not?

There were two parts in our previous education system, right?

Just so.

Exactly.

There was gymnastic which presided over the growth and decay of the body, and may therefore be regarded as having to do with generation and corruption?

There was a gymnastics that governed the growth and decline of the body and can therefore be seen as related to creation and destruction?

True.

True.

Then that is not the knowledge which we are seeking to discover?

Then that isn’t the knowledge we’re trying to find?

No.

No.

But what do you say of music, which also entered to a certain extent into our former scheme?

But what do you think about music, which also played a role in our earlier plan?

Music, he said, as you will remember, was the counterpart of gymnastic, and trained the guardians by the influences of habit, by harmony making them harmonious, by rhythm rhythmical, but not giving them science; and the words, whether fabulous or possibly true, had kindred elements of rhythm and harmony in them. But in music there was nothing which tended to that good which you are now seeking.

Music, he said, as you’ll recall, was the counterpart of gymnastics, and it trained the guardians through the influence of habit, making them harmonious through harmony and rhythmic through rhythm, but it didn't provide them with knowledge; and the words, whether they were fanciful or perhaps true, contained similar elements of rhythm and harmony. However, in music, there was nothing that contributed to that good which you are now pursuing.

You are most accurate, I said, in your recollection; in music there certainly was nothing of the kind. But what branch of knowledge is there, my dear Glaucon, which is of the desired nature; since all the useful arts were reckoned mean by us?

You’re absolutely right, I said, in what you remember; in music, there definitely wasn’t anything like that. But what field of knowledge is there, my dear Glaucon, that meets the ideal; since all the practical skills were considered ordinary by us?

Undoubtedly; and yet if music and gymnastic are excluded, and the arts are also excluded, what remains?

Undoubtedly; and yet if music and gymnastics are excluded, and the arts are also excluded, what’s left?

Well, I said, there may be nothing left of our special subjects; and then we shall have to take something which is not special, but of universal application.

Well, I said, there might not be anything left of our special topics; and then we'll have to choose something that's not special but has universal relevance.

What may that be?

What could that be?

A something which all arts and sciences and intelligences use in common, and which every one first has to learn among the elements of education.

A concept that all arts, sciences, and forms of intelligence share, and that everyone must first learn as part of their basic education.

What is that?

What's that?

The little matter of distinguishing one, two, and three—in a word, number and calculation:—do not all arts and sciences necessarily partake of them?

The small issue of distinguishing one, two, and three—in other words, numbers and calculations: don’t all arts and sciences necessarily involve them?

Yes.

Yes.

Then the art of war partakes of them?

Then does the art of war involve them?

To be sure.

For sure.

Then Palamedes, whenever he appears in tragedy, proves Agamemnon ridiculously unfit to be a general. Did you never remark how he declares that he had invented number, and had numbered the ships and set in array the ranks of the army at Troy; which implies that they had never been numbered before, and Agamemnon must be supposed literally to have been incapable of counting his own feet—how could he if he was ignorant of number? And if that is true, what sort of general must he have been?

Then Palamedes, whenever he shows up in tragedy, makes Agamemnon look absurdly unfit to be a general. Have you ever noticed how he claims that he invented numbers and counted the ships and organized the army at Troy? This suggests that they had never been counted before, and Agamemnon must literally be seen as unable to count his own toes—how could he if he didn't know numbers? And if that's the case, what kind of general could he have possibly been?

I should say a very strange one, if this was as you say.

I should say it's a really strange one, if that's what you mean.

Can we deny that a warrior should have a knowledge of arithmetic?

Can we really argue that a warrior shouldn't know math?

Certainly he should, if he is to have the smallest understanding of military tactics, or indeed, I should rather say, if he is to be a man at all.

Certainly he should, if he wants to have the slightest understanding of military tactics, or rather, I should say, if he wants to be a man at all.

I should like to know whether you have the same notion which I have of this study?

I would like to know if you have the same idea about this study that I do.

What is your notion?

What’s your idea?

It appears to me to be a study of the kind which we are seeking, and which leads naturally to reflection, but never to have been rightly used; for the true use of it is simply to draw the soul towards being.

It seems to me that this is a kind of study we’re looking for, one that naturally encourages reflection, but has never been used correctly; because its true purpose is simply to guide the soul towards existence.

Will you explain your meaning? he said.

"Can you explain what you mean?" he asked.

I will try, I said; and I wish you would share the enquiry with me, and say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ when I attempt to distinguish in my own mind what branches of knowledge have this attracting power, in order that we may have clearer proof that arithmetic is, as I suspect, one of them.

I’ll give it a shot, I said; and I hope you’ll join me in this exploration, and say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ when I try to figure out in my own mind what areas of knowledge have this appealing quality, so we can have clearer evidence that arithmetic is, as I think, one of them.

Explain, he said.

"Explain," he said.

I mean to say that objects of sense are of two kinds; some of them do not invite thought because the sense is an adequate judge of them; while in the case of other objects sense is so untrustworthy that further enquiry is imperatively demanded.

I mean to say that sensory objects fall into two categories: some don't require much thought because our senses are good judges of them; while for other objects, our senses are so unreliable that further investigation is absolutely necessary.

You are clearly referring, he said, to the manner in which the senses are imposed upon by distance, and by painting in light and shade.

You’re obviously talking about how our senses are influenced by distance and how light and shadow are used in painting.

No, I said, that is not at all my meaning.

No, I said, that's not at all what I mean.

Then what is your meaning?

Then what's your meaning?

When speaking of uninviting objects, I mean those which do not pass from one sensation to the opposite; inviting objects are those which do; in this latter case the sense coming upon the object, whether at a distance or near, gives no more vivid idea of anything in particular than of its opposite. An illustration will make my meaning clearer:—here are three fingers—a little finger, a second finger, and a middle finger.

When I talk about uninviting objects, I mean things that don’t shift from one sensation to the opposite. Inviting objects do shift in that way; in this case, whether the sense approaches the object from far away or up close, it doesn’t create a stronger impression of anything specific than it does of its opposite. An example will help clarify my point: here are three fingers—a pinky, an index finger, and a middle finger.

Very good.

Great job.

You may suppose that they are seen quite close: And here comes the point.

You might think that they're seen really up close: And here’s the main point.

What is it?

What’s that?

Each of them equally appears a finger, whether seen in the middle or at the extremity, whether white or black, or thick or thin—it makes no difference; a finger is a finger all the same. In these cases a man is not compelled to ask of thought the question what is a finger? for the sight never intimates to the mind that a finger is other than a finger.

Each of them looks like a finger, whether you see it in the middle or at the tip, whether it's white or black, or thick or thin—it doesn't matter; a finger is a finger regardless. In these situations, a person doesn't need to question what a finger is because sight doesn't suggest to the mind that a finger is anything other than a finger.

True.

True.

And therefore, I said, as we might expect, there is nothing here which invites or excites intelligence.

And so, I said, as we might expect, there's nothing here that invites or stimulates intelligence.

There is not, he said.

No, he said.

But is this equally true of the greatness and smallness of the fingers? Can sight adequately perceive them? and is no difference made by the circumstance that one of the fingers is in the middle and another at the extremity? And in like manner does the touch adequately perceive the qualities of thickness or thinness, of softness or hardness? And so of the other senses; do they give perfect intimations of such matters? Is not their mode of operation on this wise—the sense which is concerned with the quality of hardness is necessarily concerned also with the quality of softness, and only intimates to the soul that the same thing is felt to be both hard and soft?

But is this also true for the size of our fingers, both big and small? Can our eyes really see them properly? Does it matter that one finger is in the middle while another is at the edge? Similarly, can our sense of touch really tell the difference between thickness and thinness, or softness and hardness? And what about our other senses? Do they provide accurate information about these qualities? Isn’t it the case that the sense that detects hardness also has to deal with softness, and only suggests to our mind that something can be both hard and soft?

You are quite right, he said.

You're totally right, he said.

And must not the soul be perplexed at this intimation which the sense gives of a hard which is also soft? What, again, is the meaning of light and heavy, if that which is light is also heavy, and that which is heavy, light?

And shouldn't the soul be confused by this indication that something can be both hard and soft? What does it really mean for something to be light or heavy if what is light can also be heavy, and what is heavy can be light?

Yes, he said, these intimations which the soul receives are very curious and require to be explained.

Yes, he said, these insights that the soul experiences are really intriguing and need to be explained.

Yes, I said, and in these perplexities the soul naturally summons to her aid calculation and intelligence, that she may see whether the several objects announced to her are one or two.

Yes, I said, and in these confusing situations, the soul instinctively calls on reason and intelligence to help her determine whether the various things presented to her are one or two.

True.

True.

And if they turn out to be two, is not each of them one and different?

And if they turn out to be two, isn't each of them one and unique?

Certainly.

Sure.

And if each is one, and both are two, she will conceive the two as in a state of division, for if there were undivided they could only be conceived of as one?

And if each is one, and together they make two, she will see the two as separate because if they were not separate, they could only be thought of as one.

True.

True.

The eye certainly did see both small and great, but only in a confused manner; they were not distinguished.

The eye definitely saw both small and large, but it was all mixed up; they weren't recognized separately.

Yes.

Yes.

Whereas the thinking mind, intending to light up the chaos, was compelled to reverse the process, and look at small and great as separate and not confused.

Whereas the analytical mind, aiming to clarify the chaos, was forced to turn things around and view the small and the large as distinct and not mixed up.

Very true.

So true.

Was not this the beginning of the enquiry ‘What is great?’ and ‘What is small?’

Wasn't this the start of the question 'What is great?' and 'What is small?'

Exactly so.

Exactly.

And thus arose the distinction of the visible and the intelligible.

And so the difference between the visible and the intelligible emerged.

Most true.

Absolutely true.

This was what I meant when I spoke of impressions which invited the intellect, or the reverse—those which are simultaneous with opposite impressions, invite thought; those which are not simultaneous do not.

This is what I meant when I talked about impressions that engage the mind, or the opposite—those that occur at the same time as conflicting impressions stimulate thought; those that don’t happen at the same time do not.

I understand, he said, and agree with you.

"I get it," he said, "and I agree with you."

And to which class do unity and number belong?

And which category do unity and number fall into?

I do not know, he replied.

"I don't know," he responded.

Think a little and you will see that what has preceded will supply the answer; for if simple unity could be adequately perceived by the sight or by any other sense, then, as we were saying in the case of the finger, there would be nothing to attract towards being; but when there is some contradiction always present, and one is the reverse of one and involves the conception of plurality, then thought begins to be aroused within us, and the soul perplexed and wanting to arrive at a decision asks ‘What is absolute unity?’ This is the way in which the study of the one has a power of drawing and converting the mind to the contemplation of true being.

Think about it for a moment, and you'll see that what’s come before provides the answer. If we could fully understand simple unity through sight or any other sense, then, as we mentioned with the finger, there would be nothing to pull us toward existence. However, when contradictions are always present, and one concept is the opposite of another and includes the idea of many, then our thoughts begin to stir, and the soul, confused and seeking a decision, asks, "What is absolute unity?" This is how studying the concept of one draws and transforms the mind to consider true existence.

And surely, he said, this occurs notably in the case of one; for we see the same thing to be both one and infinite in multitude?

And surely, he said, this happens especially in the case of one; because we observe the same thing being both one and countless in number?

Yes, I said; and this being true of one must be equally true of all number?

Yes, I said; and if this is true for one, it must be true for all, right?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And all arithmetic and calculation have to do with number?

And is everything related to math and calculations about numbers?

Yes.

Yes.

And they appear to lead the mind towards truth?

And do they seem to guide the mind toward the truth?

Yes, in a very remarkable manner.

Yes, in a really impressive way.

Then this is knowledge of the kind for which we are seeking, having a double use, military and philosophical; for the man of war must learn the art of number or he will not know how to array his troops, and the philosopher also, because he has to rise out of the sea of change and lay hold of true being, and therefore he must be an arithmetician.

Then this is the kind of knowledge we are looking for, as it serves two purposes: military and philosophical. A warrior must learn the art of numbers, or he won't know how to arrange his troops. The philosopher, too, needs this knowledge because he must rise above the chaos of change and grasp true existence, so he must be skilled in arithmetic.

That is true.

That's true.

And our guardian is both warrior and philosopher?

And our guardian is both a fighter and a thinker?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then this is a kind of knowledge which legislation may fitly prescribe; and we must endeavour to persuade those who are to be the principal men of our State to go and learn arithmetic, not as amateurs, but they must carry on the study until they see the nature of numbers with the mind only; nor again, like merchants or retail-traders, with a view to buying or selling, but for the sake of their military use, and of the soul herself; and because this will be the easiest way for her to pass from becoming to truth and being.

This is a type of knowledge that should be properly outlined by laws; we need to encourage the future leaders of our State to study arithmetic seriously, not just as a hobby. They should pursue this study until they grasp the essence of numbers purely through thought, not like merchants focused on buying or selling, but for its value in military strategy and for the benefit of the soul itself. This approach will provide the simplest pathway for the soul to transition from a state of becoming to one of truth and being.

That is excellent, he said.

"That’s great," he said.

Yes, I said, and now having spoken of it, I must add how charming the science is! and in how many ways it conduces to our desired end, if pursued in the spirit of a philosopher, and not of a shopkeeper!

Yes, I said, and now that I’ve mentioned it, I have to say how wonderful the science is! And in how many ways it helps us reach our goals if we approach it with the mindset of a philosopher and not just a shopkeeper!

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean, as I was saying, that arithmetic has a very great and elevating effect, compelling the soul to reason about abstract number, and rebelling against the introduction of visible or tangible objects into the argument. You know how steadily the masters of the art repel and ridicule any one who attempts to divide absolute unity when he is calculating, and if you divide, they multiply (Meaning either (1) that they integrate the number because they deny the possibility of fractions; or (2) that division is regarded by them as a process of multiplication, for the fractions of one continue to be units.), taking care that one shall continue one and not become lost in fractions.

I mean, like I was saying, arithmetic has a really significant and uplifting impact, pushing the mind to think about abstract numbers and resisting the inclusion of visual or physical objects in the argument. You know how strongly the experts in the field push back against anyone who tries to split up absolute unity while calculating, and if you divide, they multiply (meaning either (1) that they consolidate the number because they refuse to accept the possibility of fractions; or (2) that they view division as a form of multiplication, since the fractions of one still count as units), making sure that one stays as one and doesn’t get lost in fractions.

That is very true.

That's so true.

Now, suppose a person were to say to them: O my friends, what are these wonderful numbers about which you are reasoning, in which, as you say, there is a unity such as you demand, and each unit is equal, invariable, indivisible,—what would they answer?

Now, imagine someone saying to them: Hey friends, what are these amazing numbers you’re talking about, where, as you claim, there’s a unity like you require, and each unit is equal, unchanging, and indivisible—what would they say?

They would answer, as I should conceive, that they were speaking of those numbers which can only be realized in thought.

They would reply, as I imagine, that they were talking about those concepts that can only exist in the mind.

Then you see that this knowledge may be truly called necessary, necessitating as it clearly does the use of the pure intelligence in the attainment of pure truth?

Then you see that this knowledge can genuinely be called essential, as it clearly requires the use of pure intellect to achieve pure truth?

Yes; that is a marked characteristic of it.

Yes, that's a noticeable feature of it.

And have you further observed, that those who have a natural talent for calculation are generally quick at every other kind of knowledge; and even the dull, if they have had an arithmetical training, although they may derive no other advantage from it, always become much quicker than they would otherwise have been.

And have you also noticed that people who are naturally good at math tend to be quick at learning other things too? Even those who aren’t as sharp, if they've had some training in math, though they might not gain any other benefit from it, still become way quicker than they would have been without that training.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And indeed, you will not easily find a more difficult study, and not many as difficult.

And really, you won't easily find a more challenging subject, and not many are as tough.

You will not.

You won't.

And, for all these reasons, arithmetic is a kind of knowledge in which the best natures should be trained, and which must not be given up.

And for all these reasons, math is a type of knowledge that the best minds should be educated in, and it must not be neglected.

I agree.

I agree.

Let this then be made one of our subjects of education. And next, shall we enquire whether the kindred science also concerns us?

Let this then be one of our topics of education. And next, should we ask whether the related science is also relevant to us?

You mean geometry?

You mean geometry?

Exactly so.

Exactly.

Clearly, he said, we are concerned with that part of geometry which relates to war; for in pitching a camp, or taking up a position, or closing or extending the lines of an army, or any other military manoeuvre, whether in actual battle or on a march, it will make all the difference whether a general is or is not a geometrician.

Clearly, he said, we are focused on that aspect of geometry that's connected to war; because when setting up a camp, choosing a position, adjusting the lines of an army, or any other military operation, whether in battle or during a march, it really matters whether a general knows geometry or not.

Yes, I said, but for that purpose a very little of either geometry or calculation will be enough; the question relates rather to the greater and more advanced part of geometry—whether that tends in any degree to make more easy the vision of the idea of good; and thither, as I was saying, all things tend which compel the soul to turn her gaze towards that place, where is the full perfection of being, which she ought, by all means, to behold.

Yes, I said, but to achieve that, a little bit of geometry or calculation will suffice; the question is more about the higher and more advanced aspects of geometry—whether they, in any way, make it easier to envision the idea of good. And as I was saying, everything that urges the soul to look towards that place, where the full perfection of existence is found, is where she should definitely focus her attention.

True, he said.

For sure, he said.

Then if geometry compels us to view being, it concerns us; if becoming only, it does not concern us?

Then if geometry forces us to consider existence, it matters to us; if it's only about becoming, it doesn't matter to us?

Yes, that is what we assert.

Yes, that's our claim.

Yet anybody who has the least acquaintance with geometry will not deny that such a conception of the science is in flat contradiction to the ordinary language of geometricians.

Yet anyone with even a basic understanding of geometry will not deny that such a concept of the science directly contradicts the typical language used by geometers.

How so?

How come?

They have in view practice only, and are always speaking, in a narrow and ridiculous manner, of squaring and extending and applying and the like—they confuse the necessities of geometry with those of daily life; whereas knowledge is the real object of the whole science.

They focus only on practice and always talk in a narrow and silly way about squaring, extending, applying, and so on—they mix up the needs of geometry with everyday life; meanwhile, true understanding is the real goal of the entire field.

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

Then must not a further admission be made?

Then mustn't we make another admission?

What admission?

What admission are you referring to?

That the knowledge at which geometry aims is knowledge of the eternal, and not of aught perishing and transient.

That the knowledge geometry seeks is knowledge of the eternal, not of anything that is temporary or fleeting.

That, he replied, may be readily allowed, and is true.

That, he replied, can definitely be accepted, and is true.

Then, my noble friend, geometry will draw the soul towards truth, and create the spirit of philosophy, and raise up that which is now unhappily allowed to fall down.

Then, my noble friend, geometry will lead the soul to truth, spark the spirit of philosophy, and lift up what is currently allowed to fall.

Nothing will be more likely to have such an effect.

Nothing is more likely to have that effect.

Then nothing should be more sternly laid down than that the inhabitants of your fair city should by all means learn geometry. Moreover the science has indirect effects, which are not small.

Then nothing should be more firmly established than that the people of your beautiful city should definitely learn geometry. Also, the science has significant indirect effects.

Of what kind? he said.

What kind? he asked.

There are the military advantages of which you spoke, I said; and in all departments of knowledge, as experience proves, any one who has studied geometry is infinitely quicker of apprehension than one who has not.

There are the military advantages you mentioned, I said; and in all areas of knowledge, as experience shows, anyone who has studied geometry is way quicker at understanding things than someone who hasn’t.

Yes indeed, he said, there is an infinite difference between them.

Yes, he said, there is an endless difference between them.

Then shall we propose this as a second branch of knowledge which our youth will study?

Then should we suggest this as a second area of knowledge for our young people to study?

Let us do so, he replied.

"Sure, let's do that," he replied.

And suppose we make astronomy the third—what do you say?

And how about we make astronomy the third subject—what do you think?

I am strongly inclined to it, he said; the observation of the seasons and of months and years is as essential to the general as it is to the farmer or sailor.

I totally agree, he said; keeping track of the seasons, months, and years is just as important for the general as it is for farmers or sailors.

I am amused, I said, at your fear of the world, which makes you guard against the appearance of insisting upon useless studies; and I quite admit the difficulty of believing that in every man there is an eye of the soul which, when by other pursuits lost and dimmed, is by these purified and re-illumined; and is more precious far than ten thousand bodily eyes, for by it alone is truth seen. Now there are two classes of persons: one class of those who will agree with you and will take your words as a revelation; another class to whom they will be utterly unmeaning, and who will naturally deem them to be idle tales, for they see no sort of profit which is to be obtained from them. And therefore you had better decide at once with which of the two you are proposing to argue. You will very likely say with neither, and that your chief aim in carrying on the argument is your own improvement; at the same time you do not grudge to others any benefit which they may receive.

I'm amused, I said, by your fear of the world, which makes you cautious about seeming like you're pushing pointless studies; and I completely understand how hard it is to believe that every person has a soul's eye that, when lost and dimmed by other pursuits, is purified and brightened again through these studies; and this eye is far more valuable than ten thousand physical eyes because it alone perceives truth. There are two types of people: one type who will agree with you and see your words as a revelation; another type who will find them completely meaningless and think they are just idle stories since they see no benefit to gain from them. So, you might as well decide right now which of the two groups you want to argue with. You’ll probably say neither, claiming that your main goal in this discussion is your own improvement, while also not begrudging others any benefits they might gain.

I think that I should prefer to carry on the argument mainly on my own behalf.

I believe I should make my case mostly for myself.

Then take a step backward, for we have gone wrong in the order of the sciences.

Then take a step back, because we've messed up the order of the sciences.

What was the mistake? he said.

What was the mistake? he asked.

After plane geometry, I said, we proceeded at once to solids in revolution, instead of taking solids in themselves; whereas after the second dimension the third, which is concerned with cubes and dimensions of depth, ought to have followed.

After plane geometry, I said, we immediately moved on to solids of revolution, instead of looking at solids on their own; whereas after the second dimension, the third, which deals with cubes and depth, should have come next.

That is true, Socrates; but so little seems to be known as yet about these subjects.

That’s true, Socrates; but it seems that not much is known yet about these topics.

Why, yes, I said, and for two reasons:—in the first place, no government patronises them; this leads to a want of energy in the pursuit of them, and they are difficult; in the second place, students cannot learn them unless they have a director. But then a director can hardly be found, and even if he could, as matters now stand, the students, who are very conceited, would not attend to him. That, however, would be otherwise if the whole State became the director of these studies and gave honour to them; then disciples would want to come, and there would be continuous and earnest search, and discoveries would be made; since even now, disregarded as they are by the world, and maimed of their fair proportions, and although none of their votaries can tell the use of them, still these studies force their way by their natural charm, and very likely, if they had the help of the State, they would some day emerge into light.

Sure, I said, and for two reasons: first, no government supports them; this leads to a lack of energy in pursuing them, and they are challenging. Second, students can't learn them without a teacher. But it's hard to find a teacher, and even if one could be found, given how things are now, the students, who are quite full of themselves, wouldn't pay attention to him. However, that would change if the whole State took charge of these studies and recognized their value; then students would want to participate, and there would be ongoing and serious exploration, leading to discoveries. Even now, despite being overlooked by society and lacking their original beauty, and although none of their followers can explain their benefits, these studies have a natural appeal that pushes through. With the support of the State, they might one day come to light.

Yes, he said, there is a remarkable charm in them. But I do not clearly understand the change in the order. First you began with a geometry of plane surfaces?

Yes, he said, there is a remarkable charm in them. But I don’t quite understand the change in the order. First, you started with a geometry of flat surfaces?

Yes, I said.

Yeah, I said.

And you placed astronomy next, and then you made a step backward?

And then you put astronomy next, and after that, you took a step back?

Yes, and I have delayed you by my hurry; the ludicrous state of solid geometry, which, in natural order, should have followed, made me pass over this branch and go on to astronomy, or motion of solids.

Yes, and I have held you up with my rush; the ridiculous situation of solid geometry, which should have logically come next, caused me to skip over this topic and move on to astronomy, or the motion of solids.

True, he said.

True, he said.

Then assuming that the science now omitted would come into existence if encouraged by the State, let us go on to astronomy, which will be fourth.

Then, assuming that the science we’re missing would emerge if supported by the State, let’s move on to astronomy, which will be the fourth.

The right order, he replied. And now, Socrates, as you rebuked the vulgar manner in which I praised astronomy before, my praise shall be given in your own spirit. For every one, as I think, must see that astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and leads us from this world to another.

The right order, he said. And now, Socrates, just as you criticized the way I praised astronomy before, I'll praise it in your style. Because I think everyone can see that astronomy encourages the soul to look up and guides us from this world to another.

Every one but myself, I said; to every one else this may be clear, but not to me.

Everyone except me, I said; this might be clear to everyone else, but not to me.

And what then would you say?

And what would you say then?

I should rather say that those who elevate astronomy into philosophy appear to me to make us look downwards and not upwards.

I would say that those who turn astronomy into philosophy seem to make us focus on what’s below rather than what’s above.

What do you mean? he asked.

What do you mean? he asked.

You, I replied, have in your mind a truly sublime conception of our knowledge of the things above. And I dare say that if a person were to throw his head back and study the fretted ceiling, you would still think that his mind was the percipient, and not his eyes. And you are very likely right, and I may be a simpleton: but, in my opinion, that knowledge only which is of being and of the unseen can make the soul look upwards, and whether a man gapes at the heavens or blinks on the ground, seeking to learn some particular of sense, I would deny that he can learn, for nothing of that sort is matter of science; his soul is looking downwards, not upwards, whether his way to knowledge is by water or by land, whether he floats, or only lies on his back.

You, I replied, have a truly amazing understanding of our knowledge about higher things. I’d say that if someone threw their head back and stared at the detailed ceiling, you would still believe that their mind was the perceiver, not their eyes. And you might be right, and I could be a fool: but in my view, only knowledge of existence and the unseen can lift the soul upwards. Whether a person stares at the sky or looks down at the ground, trying to learn something through their senses, I would argue that they can't truly learn, because that doesn't fall under the realm of science; their soul is looking down, not up, whether their path to knowledge is by water or by land, whether they float or just lie on their back.

I acknowledge, he said, the justice of your rebuke. Still, I should like to ascertain how astronomy can be learned in any manner more conducive to that knowledge of which we are speaking?

"I see your point," he said, "and I accept your criticism. Still, I would like to know if there's any better way to learn astronomy that helps us gain the knowledge we're discussing?"

I will tell you, I said: The starry heaven which we behold is wrought upon a visible ground, and therefore, although the fairest and most perfect of visible things, must necessarily be deemed inferior far to the true motions of absolute swiftness and absolute slowness, which are relative to each other, and carry with them that which is contained in them, in the true number and in every true figure. Now, these are to be apprehended by reason and intelligence, but not by sight.

I’ll tell you this: The starry sky we see is built on a visible surface, and so, even though it is one of the most beautiful and perfect visible things, it has to be considered far inferior to the true motions of absolute speed and absolute slowness, which are related to each other and include everything contained within them in the true quantity and in every true shape. Now, these can be understood through reason and intelligence, not by sight.

True, he replied.

"True," he replied.

The spangled heavens should be used as a pattern and with a view to that higher knowledge; their beauty is like the beauty of figures or pictures excellently wrought by the hand of Daedalus, or some other great artist, which we may chance to behold; any geometrician who saw them would appreciate the exquisiteness of their workmanship, but he would never dream of thinking that in them he could find the true equal or the true double, or the truth of any other proportion.

The starry sky should serve as a model, aiming for that greater understanding; its beauty is comparable to the stunning works of art crafted by Daedalus or other great artists that we might come across. Any mathematician who gazed upon them would recognize the skill behind their creation, yet he would never think that he could discover the true equality, true doubling, or the truth of any other proportion within them.

No, he replied, such an idea would be ridiculous.

No, he replied, that idea would be ridiculous.

And will not a true astronomer have the same feeling when he looks at the movements of the stars? Will he not think that heaven and the things in heaven are framed by the Creator of them in the most perfect manner? But he will never imagine that the proportions of night and day, or of both to the month, or of the month to the year, or of the stars to these and to one another, and any other things that are material and visible can also be eternal and subject to no deviation—that would be absurd; and it is equally absurd to take so much pains in investigating their exact truth.

And doesn't a true astronomer feel the same way when he observes the movements of the stars? Doesn't he think that the heavens and everything in them are designed by their Creator in the most perfect way? But he would never believe that the ratios of night and day, or of both to the month, or of the month to the year, or of the stars to each other and to these other things that are tangible and visible can also be eternal and unchanging—that would be ridiculous; and it’s just as ridiculous to put so much effort into uncovering their precise truth.

I quite agree, though I never thought of this before.

I totally agree, even though I never thought about this before.

Then, I said, in astronomy, as in geometry, we should employ problems, and let the heavens alone if we would approach the subject in the right way and so make the natural gift of reason to be of any real use.

Then, I said, in astronomy, just like in geometry, we should focus on problems and leave the heavens alone if we want to tackle the subject properly and actually make the natural gift of reason useful.

That, he said, is a work infinitely beyond our present astronomers.

That, he said, is a task far beyond what our current astronomers can handle.

Yes, I said; and there are many other things which must also have a similar extension given to them, if our legislation is to be of any value. But can you tell me of any other suitable study?

Yes, I said; and there are many other things that also need to have a similar focus if our laws are going to mean anything. But can you suggest any other appropriate subjects to study?

No, he said, not without thinking.

No, he said, after thinking it over.

Motion, I said, has many forms, and not one only; two of them are obvious enough even to wits no better than ours; and there are others, as I imagine, which may be left to wiser persons.

Motion, I said, comes in many forms, not just one; two of them are pretty clear even to minds like ours; and there are others, I believe, that might be better understood by smarter individuals.

But where are the two?

But where are the two of them?

There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already named.

There is a second, I said, which is the counterpart of the one already mentioned.

And what may that be?

And what could that be?

The second, I said, would seem relatively to the ears to be what the first is to the eyes; for I conceive that as the eyes are designed to look up at the stars, so are the ears to hear harmonious motions; and these are sister sciences—as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree with them?

The second, I said, seems to be to the ears what the first is to the eyes; because I think just like our eyes are meant to gaze at the stars, our ears are meant to appreciate harmonious sounds; and these are related fields—just as the Pythagoreans say, and we, Glaucon, agree with them?

Yes, he replied.

Yeah, he replied.

But this, I said, is a laborious study, and therefore we had better go and learn of them; and they will tell us whether there are any other applications of these sciences. At the same time, we must not lose sight of our own higher object.

But this, I said, is a demanding study, so we should go and learn from them; they can tell us if there are any other uses for these sciences. At the same time, we must not forget our greater purpose.

What is that?

What's that?

There is a perfection which all knowledge ought to reach, and which our pupils ought also to attain, and not to fall short of, as I was saying that they did in astronomy. For in the science of harmony, as you probably know, the same thing happens. The teachers of harmony compare the sounds and consonances which are heard only, and their labour, like that of the astronomers, is in vain.

There is a level of perfection that all knowledge should achieve, and our students should reach it as well, rather than falling short, as I mentioned they did in astronomy. The same applies to the science of harmony, as you probably know. The teachers of harmony compare the sounds and harmonies that can only be heard, and their efforts, like those of the astronomers, are in vain.

Yes, by heaven! he said; and ’tis as good as a play to hear them talking about their condensed notes, as they call them; they put their ears close alongside of the strings like persons catching a sound from their neighbour’s wall—one set of them declaring that they distinguish an intermediate note and have found the least interval which should be the unit of measurement; the others insisting that the two sounds have passed into the same—either party setting their ears before their understanding.

Yes, by heaven! he said; and it’s just as entertaining to hear them talk about their condensed notes, as they call them; they lean in close to the strings like people trying to catch a sound from their neighbor’s wall—one group claiming they can tell the intermediate note and have found the smallest interval that should be the unit of measurement; the other group insisting that the two sounds have merged into one—each side putting their ears before their understanding.

You mean, I said, those gentlemen who tease and torture the strings and rack them on the pegs of the instrument: I might carry on the metaphor and speak after their manner of the blows which the plectrum gives, and make accusations against the strings, both of backwardness and forwardness to sound; but this would be tedious, and therefore I will only say that these are not the men, and that I am referring to the Pythagoreans, of whom I was just now proposing to enquire about harmony. For they too are in error, like the astronomers; they investigate the numbers of the harmonies which are heard, but they never attain to problems—that is to say, they never reach the natural harmonies of number, or reflect why some numbers are harmonious and others not.

You mean, I said, those guys who tease and torture the strings and stretch them on the pegs of the instrument: I could keep going with this metaphor and talk about the blows from the plectrum, making accusations against the strings, both for being too slow and too quick to sound; but that would be boring, so I’ll just say that these are not the people I’m referring to, and I’m talking about the Pythagoreans, whom I was just about to ask about harmony. They are also mistaken, just like the astronomers; they look into the numbers of the harmonies we can hear, but they never solve the real issues—that is to say, they never grasp the natural harmonies of numbers, or consider why some numbers sound harmonious while others do not.

That, he said, is a thing of more than mortal knowledge.

That, he said, is something beyond human understanding.

A thing, I replied, which I would rather call useful; that is, if sought after with a view to the beautiful and good; but if pursued in any other spirit, useless.

A thing, I replied, that I would prefer to call useful; that is, if pursued with the intention of achieving beauty and goodness; but if chased for any other reason, then it's pointless.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Now, when all these studies reach the point of inter-communion and connection with one another, and come to be considered in their mutual affinities, then, I think, but not till then, will the pursuit of them have a value for our objects; otherwise there is no profit in them.

Now, when all these studies connect and relate to each other, and are viewed in light of their shared similarities, I believe, but only then, will the pursuit of them be worthwhile for our purposes; otherwise, they offer no benefit.

I suspect so; but you are speaking, Socrates, of a vast work.

I think so; but you’re talking about a huge task, Socrates.

What do you mean? I said; the prelude or what? Do you not know that all this is but the prelude to the actual strain which we have to learn? For you surely would not regard the skilled mathematician as a dialectician?

What do you mean? I said; the prelude or what? Don't you know that all this is just the introduction to the actual complexity we have to learn? Because you definitely wouldn't see the skilled mathematician as a debater, right?

Assuredly not, he said; I have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning.

"Definitely not," he said. "I have rarely come across a mathematician who can actually reason."

But do you imagine that men who are unable to give and take a reason will have the knowledge which we require of them?

But do you really think that men who can't give and take a reason will have the knowledge we need from them?

Neither can this be supposed.

This can't be assumed either.

And so, Glaucon, I said, we have at last arrived at the hymn of dialectic. This is that strain which is of the intellect only, but which the faculty of sight will nevertheless be found to imitate; for sight, as you may remember, was imagined by us after a while to behold the real animals and stars, and last of all the sun himself. And so with dialectic; when a person starts on the discovery of the absolute by the light of reason only, and without any assistance of sense, and perseveres until by pure intelligence he arrives at the perception of the absolute good, he at last finds himself at the end of the intellectual world, as in the case of sight at the end of the visible.

So, Glaucon, I said, we have finally reached the hymn of dialectic. This is the melody of the intellect, yet it's one that sight can still be seen to mimic; remember, we once imagined sight as a way to perceive real animals and stars, ultimately leading us to the sun itself. The same goes for dialectic; when someone embarks on the quest for the absolute using only reason without help from the senses, and keeps going until they grasp the absolute good through pure intellect, they ultimately arrive at the conclusion of the intellectual realm, just as sight concludes with the visible.

Exactly, he said.

Exactly, he said.

Then this is the progress which you call dialectic?

Then this is the progress you refer to as dialectic?

True.

True.

But the release of the prisoners from chains, and their translation from the shadows to the images and to the light, and the ascent from the underground den to the sun, while in his presence they are vainly trying to look on animals and plants and the light of the sun, but are able to perceive even with their weak eyes the images in the water (which are divine), and are the shadows of true existence (not shadows of images cast by a light of fire, which compared with the sun is only an image)—this power of elevating the highest principle in the soul to the contemplation of that which is best in existence, with which we may compare the raising of that faculty which is the very light of the body to the sight of that which is brightest in the material and visible world—this power is given, as I was saying, by all that study and pursuit of the arts which has been described.

But freeing the prisoners from their chains, bringing them from the shadows into the light, and raising them from the dark underground to the sun, while they try in vain to look at animals and plants and the sunlight; yet even with their weak sight, they can still perceive the divine reflections in the water, which are shadows of true existence (not shadows of images cast by firelight, which is just an image compared to the sun)—this ability to lift the highest principle in the soul to contemplate what is best in existence is like the way we elevate the faculty that is the true light of the body to see what is brightest in the material and visible world—this power comes, as I was saying, from all the study and pursuit of the arts that has been described.

I agree in what you are saying, he replied, which may be hard to believe, yet, from another point of view, is harder still to deny. This, however, is not a theme to be treated of in passing only, but will have to be discussed again and again. And so, whether our conclusion be true or false, let us assume all this, and proceed at once from the prelude or preamble to the chief strain (A play upon the Greek word, which means both ‘law’ and ‘strain.’), and describe that in like manner. Say, then, what is the nature and what are the divisions of dialectic, and what are the paths which lead thither; for these paths will also lead to our final rest.

"I agree with what you're saying," he replied, "which might be hard to believe, but from another perspective, it's even harder to deny. However, this isn't a topic to just touch on briefly; it needs to be revisited multiple times. So, whether our conclusion is right or wrong, let's take all of this into account and move directly from the introduction to the main theme (a play on the Greek word, which means both ‘law’ and ‘strain’), and describe that in a similar way. Now, tell me what the nature and divisions of dialectic are, and what the paths are that lead there; because these paths will also guide us to our ultimate conclusion."

Dear Glaucon, I said, you will not be able to follow me here, though I would do my best, and you should behold not an image only but the absolute truth, according to my notion. Whether what I told you would or would not have been a reality I cannot venture to say; but you would have seen something like reality; of that I am confident.

Dear Glaucon, I said, you might find it hard to follow me here, even though I’ll try my best, and you should see not just an image but the absolute truth, as I see it. I can’t say for sure whether what I told you would have been real or not; but you would have witnessed something similar to reality; I’m sure of that.

Doubtless, he replied.

Definitely, he replied.

But I must also remind you, that the power of dialectic alone can reveal this, and only to one who is a disciple of the previous sciences.

But I must also remind you that the power of dialectic alone can reveal this, and only to someone who is a student of the earlier sciences.

Of that assertion you may be as confident as of the last.

You can be just as sure about that claim as you were about the last one.

And assuredly no one will argue that there is any other method of comprehending by any regular process all true existence or of ascertaining what each thing is in its own nature; for the arts in general are concerned with the desires or opinions of men, or are cultivated with a view to production and construction, or for the preservation of such productions and constructions; and as to the mathematical sciences which, as we were saying, have some apprehension of true being—geometry and the like—they only dream about being, but never can they behold the waking reality so long as they leave the hypotheses which they use unexamined, and are unable to give an account of them. For when a man knows not his own first principle, and when the conclusion and intermediate steps are also constructed out of he knows not what, how can he imagine that such a fabric of convention can ever become science?

And no one can deny that there’s no other way to fully understand true existence or to determine what each thing truly is in its nature. The arts generally deal with human desires or opinions, or they’re developed for the purpose of creating and building, or for preserving those creations. As for the mathematical sciences, like geometry, which we mentioned earlier, they only grasp a glimpse of true being. However, they can never truly see the reality as long as they leave the assumptions they rely on unexamined and can’t explain them. If a person doesn’t understand their own basic principles, and if the conclusions and intermediate steps are based on unknown foundations, how can they expect such a system of conventions to ever be considered science?

Impossible, he said.

"That's impossible," he said.

Then dialectic, and dialectic alone, goes directly to the first principle and is the only science which does away with hypotheses in order to make her ground secure; the eye of the soul, which is literally buried in an outlandish slough, is by her gentle aid lifted upwards; and she uses as handmaids and helpers in the work of conversion, the sciences which we have been discussing. Custom terms them sciences, but they ought to have some other name, implying greater clearness than opinion and less clearness than science: and this, in our previous sketch, was called understanding. But why should we dispute about names when we have realities of such importance to consider?

Then dialectic, and dialectic alone, goes straight to the first principle and is the only field of study that eliminates hypotheses to establish a solid foundation; it gently lifts the eye of the soul, which is trapped in a murky mess, upwards. It employs the sciences we’ve been talking about as helpers in the process of change. People call them sciences, but they should really be named something else, indicating more clarity than opinion but less clarity than true science: in our earlier discussion, we referred to this as understanding. But why should we argue over names when we have such significant realities to think about?

Why indeed, he said, when any name will do which expresses the thought of the mind with clearness?

Why not, he said, when any name can clearly express what’s on your mind?

At any rate, we are satisfied, as before, to have four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call the first division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows, opinion being concerned with becoming, and intellect with being; and so to make a proportion:—

At any rate, we’re still happy to have four divisions: two for intellect and two for opinion. We call the first division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows. Opinion relates to becoming, while intellect relates to being; so we create a proportion:—

As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect to opinion. And as intellect is to opinion, so is science to belief, and understanding to the perception of shadows.

As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect to opinion. And just as intellect relates to opinion, so does science relate to belief, and understanding relates to the perception of shadows.

But let us defer the further correlation and subdivision of the subjects of opinion and of intellect, for it will be a long enquiry, many times longer than this has been.

But let's put off the further connection and breakdown of the topics of opinion and intellect, as it will be a lengthy exploration, much longer than this has been.

As far as I understand, he said, I agree.

As far as I get it, he said, I agree.

And do you also agree, I said, in describing the dialectician as one who attains a conception of the essence of each thing? And he who does not possess and is therefore unable to impart this conception, in whatever degree he fails, may in that degree also be said to fail in intelligence? Will you admit so much?

And do you also agree, I said, in describing the dialectician as someone who gets a grasp of the essence of each thing? And the person who doesn’t have this understanding and therefore can't share it, no matter how much they fall short, could be said to also lack intelligence to that same extent? Will you accept that?

Yes, he said; how can I deny it?

Yes, he said; how can I argue with that?

And you would say the same of the conception of the good? Until the person is able to abstract and define rationally the idea of good, and unless he can run the gauntlet of all objections, and is ready to disprove them, not by appeals to opinion, but to absolute truth, never faltering at any step of the argument—unless he can do all this, you would say that he knows neither the idea of good nor any other good; he apprehends only a shadow, if anything at all, which is given by opinion and not by science;—dreaming and slumbering in this life, before he is well awake here, he arrives at the world below, and has his final quietus.

And would you say the same about the idea of the good? Until a person can abstractly and rationally define what good is, and unless they can go through all criticisms and are prepared to counter them, not by relying on opinions but by referring to absolute truth, without wavering at any point in the reasoning—unless they can do all this, you would say that they don’t truly understand the concept of good or any other goodness; they only grasp a faint idea, if anything at all, that comes from opinion and not from knowledge;—living in a dream, half-asleep in this life, before they’re fully awake here, they end up in the afterlife and find their final rest.

In all that I should most certainly agree with you.

I definitely agree with you on that.

And surely you would not have the children of your ideal State, whom you are nurturing and educating—if the ideal ever becomes a reality—you would not allow the future rulers to be like posts (Literally ‘lines,’ probably the starting-point of a race-course.), having no reason in them, and yet to be set in authority over the highest matters?

And you definitely wouldn’t want the kids in your ideal State, whom you’re raising and educating—if the ideal ever becomes real—you wouldn’t want the future leaders to be like wooden posts, having no reasoning skills, yet placed in charge of the most important issues?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Then you will make a law that they shall have such an education as will enable them to attain the greatest skill in asking and answering questions?

Then you will create a law that ensures they receive an education that allows them to become highly skilled at asking and answering questions?

Yes, he said, you and I together will make it.

Yes, he said, you and I will make it together.

Dialectic, then, as you will agree, is the coping-stone of the sciences, and is set over them; no other science can be placed higher—the nature of knowledge can no further go?

Dialectic, then, as you will agree, is the capstone of the sciences, and stands above them; no other science can be ranked higher—the nature of knowledge cannot extend beyond this?

I agree, he said.

"I agree," he said.

But to whom we are to assign these studies, and in what way they are to be assigned, are questions which remain to be considered.

But we still need to decide who these studies should be assigned to and how they should be assigned.

Yes, clearly.

Yes, obviously.

You remember, I said, how the rulers were chosen before?

You remember how the leaders were chosen back then?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

The same natures must still be chosen, and the preference again given to the surest and the bravest, and, if possible, to the fairest; and, having noble and generous tempers, they should also have the natural gifts which will facilitate their education.

The same qualities must still be chosen, with preference given to those who are most reliable and courageous, and if possible, to those who are also the most attractive; and, possessing noble and generous spirits, they should also have the natural abilities that will help them learn.

And what are these?

What are these?

Such gifts as keenness and ready powers of acquisition; for the mind more often faints from the severity of study than from the severity of gymnastics: the toil is more entirely the mind’s own, and is not shared with the body.

Gifts like sharpness and quick learning ability; because the mind usually gets tired from the intensity of studying more than from working out: the effort belongs entirely to the mind and isn’t shared with the body.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Further, he of whom we are in search should have a good memory, and be an unwearied solid man who is a lover of labour in any line; or he will never be able to endure the great amount of bodily exercise and to go through all the intellectual discipline and study which we require of him.

Furthermore, the person we are looking for should have a good memory and be a reliable, hard-working individual who enjoys putting in effort in any field; otherwise, he will never be able to handle the significant amount of physical activity and complete all the intellectual training and study that we expect from him.

Certainly, he said; he must have natural gifts.

Certainly, he said; he must have natural talents.

The mistake at present is, that those who study philosophy have no vocation, and this, as I was before saying, is the reason why she has fallen into disrepute: her true sons should take her by the hand and not bastards.

The current mistake is that those who study philosophy lack a genuine calling, and this, as I mentioned before, is why it has fallen out of favor: its true followers should support it, not impostors.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

In the first place, her votary should not have a lame or halting industry—I mean, that he should not be half industrious and half idle: as, for example, when a man is a lover of gymnastic and hunting, and all other bodily exercises, but a hater rather than a lover of the labour of learning or listening or enquiring. Or the occupation to which he devotes himself may be of an opposite kind, and he may have the other sort of lameness.

In the first place, her admirer shouldn't have a lazy or inconsistent work ethic—I mean, he shouldn't be partially diligent and partially lazy: for instance, when someone loves physical activities like gymnastics and hunting, but dislikes or avoids the effort of learning, listening, or questioning. Or, he might be completely focused on one type of activity, and still have the other kind of lack of balance.

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And as to truth, I said, is not a soul equally to be deemed halt and lame which hates voluntary falsehood and is extremely indignant at herself and others when they tell lies, but is patient of involuntary falsehood, and does not mind wallowing like a swinish beast in the mire of ignorance, and has no shame at being detected?

And as for truth, I said, isn’t a person just as much at fault if they hate deliberate lies and feel really angry at themselves and others for lying, but are okay with unintentional lies, and don’t care about rolling around like a filthy beast in ignorance, and feel no shame when they get caught?

To be sure.

Just to be sure.

And, again, in respect of temperance, courage, magnificence, and every other virtue, should we not carefully distinguish between the true son and the bastard? for where there is no discernment of such qualities states and individuals unconsciously err; and the state makes a ruler, and the individual a friend, of one who, being defective in some part of virtue, is in a figure lame or a bastard.

And again, when it comes to temperance, courage, magnificence, and every other virtue, shouldn’t we carefully distinguish between the true son and the illegitimate one? Because without recognizing these qualities, both states and individuals make mistakes without realizing it; the state ends up making a ruler, and individuals choose a friend, from someone who, lacking some part of virtue, is flawed or not genuinely legitimate.

That is very true, he said.

That's totally true, he said.

All these things, then, will have to be carefully considered by us; and if only those whom we introduce to this vast system of education and training are sound in body and mind, justice herself will have nothing to say against us, and we shall be the saviours of the constitution and of the State; but, if our pupils are men of another stamp, the reverse will happen, and we shall pour a still greater flood of ridicule on philosophy than she has to endure at present.

All these things will need to be carefully thought about by us; and if we only introduce those who are healthy in body and mind to this extensive system of education and training, justice herself will have nothing to criticize us for, and we’ll be the saviors of the constitution and the State. However, if our students are of a different kind, the opposite will occur, and we’ll bring even more ridicule on philosophy than it currently faces.

That would not be creditable.

That wouldn’t be credible.

Certainly not, I said; and yet perhaps, in thus turning jest into earnest I am equally ridiculous.

Certainly not, I said; and yet maybe, by turning a joke into something serious, I am just as ridiculous.

In what respect?

In what way?

I had forgotten, I said, that we were not serious, and spoke with too much excitement. For when I saw philosophy so undeservedly trampled under foot of men I could not help feeling a sort of indignation at the authors of her disgrace: and my anger made me too vehement.

I had forgotten, I said, that we weren't serious, and spoke with too much excitement. Because when I saw philosophy so unjustly trampled by people, I couldn't help but feel a kind of anger toward those responsible for her disgrace: and my frustration made me too intense.

Indeed! I was listening, and did not think so.

Indeed! I was listening, and I didn't think that.

But I, who am the speaker, felt that I was. And now let me remind you that, although in our former selection we chose old men, we must not do so in this. Solon was under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows old may learn many things—for he can no more learn much than he can run much; youth is the time for any extraordinary toil.

But I, as the one speaking, felt that I was. And now let me remind you that, although in our previous selection we chose older men, we shouldn't do the same here. Solon was mistaken when he said that a man can learn a lot as he gets older—he can learn no more than he can run a lot; youth is the time for any extraordinary effort.

Of course.

Absolutely.

And, therefore, calculation and geometry and all the other elements of instruction, which are a preparation for dialectic, should be presented to the mind in childhood; not, however, under any notion of forcing our system of education.

And so, subjects like math, geometry, and all the other basics of learning that set the stage for critical thinking should be introduced to children early on; however, this shouldn't be seen as imposing our education system on them.

Why not?

Why not?

Because a freeman ought not to be a slave in the acquisition of knowledge of any kind. Bodily exercise, when compulsory, does no harm to the body; but knowledge which is acquired under compulsion obtains no hold on the mind.

Because a free person shouldn't be enslaved in their pursuit of knowledge in any form. Physical exercise, when made mandatory, doesn't harm the body; but knowledge gained under pressure doesn't stick in the mind.

Very true.

So true.

Then, my good friend, I said, do not use compulsion, but let early education be a sort of amusement; you will then be better able to find out the natural bent.

Then, my good friend, I said, don't use force; instead, let early education be a kind of fun. This way, you'll be better able to discover the natural inclination.

That is a very rational notion, he said.

"That’s a really reasonable idea," he said.

Do you remember that the children, too, were to be taken to see the battle on horseback; and that if there were no danger they were to be brought close up and, like young hounds, have a taste of blood given them?

Do you remember that the kids were also supposed to see the battle on horseback? And that if there was no danger, they were to be brought in close and, like young hounds, given a taste of blood?

Yes, I remember.

Yeah, I remember.

The same practice may be followed, I said, in all these things—labours, lessons, dangers—and he who is most at home in all of them ought to be enrolled in a select number.

The same approach can be applied in all these areas—work, learning, risks—and the person who is most skilled in all of them should be included in a select group.

At what age?

How old?

At the age when the necessary gymnastics are over: the period whether of two or three years which passes in this sort of training is useless for any other purpose; for sleep and exercise are unpropitious to learning; and the trial of who is first in gymnastic exercises is one of the most important tests to which our youth are subjected.

At the age when the necessary physical training is done: the two or three years spent on this type of training is pointless for anything else; because sleep and exercise don't really help with learning; and competing to see who excels in physical activities is one of the most important challenges our young people face.

Certainly, he replied.

Sure, he replied.

After that time those who are selected from the class of twenty years old will be promoted to higher honour, and the sciences which they learned without any order in their early education will now be brought together, and they will be able to see the natural relationship of them to one another and to true being.

After that time, those chosen from the group of twenty-year-olds will be promoted to a higher honor, and the subjects they learned in a random way during their early education will now be organized. They will be able to understand how these subjects are related to each other and to true existence.

Yes, he said, that is the only kind of knowledge which takes lasting root.

Yes, he said, that is the only kind of knowledge that really sticks with you.

Yes, I said; and the capacity for such knowledge is the great criterion of dialectical talent: the comprehensive mind is always the dialectical.

Yes, I said; and the ability to understand such knowledge is the key measure of dialectical skills: a broad-minded person is always dialectical.

I agree with you, he said.

I agree with you, he said.

These, I said, are the points which you must consider; and those who have most of this comprehension, and who are most steadfast in their learning, and in their military and other appointed duties, when they have arrived at the age of thirty have to be chosen by you out of the select class, and elevated to higher honour; and you will have to prove them by the help of dialectic, in order to learn which of them is able to give up the use of sight and the other senses, and in company with truth to attain absolute being: And here, my friend, great caution is required.

These are the points you need to think about. Those who understand this the best, and who are most dedicated to their studies and their military and other assigned responsibilities, should be selected by you from the elite group once they reach the age of thirty and promoted to higher honors. You will need to test them using dialectic to see who can forsake the use of sight and the other senses to connect with truth and achieve absolute existence. Here, my friend, you need to be very careful.

Why great caution?

Why be so cautious?

Do you not remark, I said, how great is the evil which dialectic has introduced?

Don't you notice, I said, how much harm dialectic has caused?

What evil? he said.

What evil? he asked.

The students of the art are filled with lawlessness.

The art students are filled with rebellion.

Quite true, he said.

That's right, he said.

Do you think that there is anything so very unnatural or inexcusable in their case? or will you make allowance for them?

Do you think there's anything so completely unnatural or unforgivable about their situation? Or will you be understanding toward them?

In what way make allowance?

How to make accommodations?

I want you, I said, by way of parallel, to imagine a supposititious son who is brought up in great wealth; he is one of a great and numerous family, and has many flatterers. When he grows up to manhood, he learns that his alleged are not his real parents; but who the real are he is unable to discover. Can you guess how he will be likely to behave towards his flatterers and his supposed parents, first of all during the period when he is ignorant of the false relation, and then again when he knows? Or shall I guess for you?

I want you to imagine a hypothetical son who grows up in extreme wealth. He’s part of a large family and has plenty of people who flatter him. When he reaches adulthood, he discovers that the people he thought were his real parents aren’t. However, he can’t find out who his true parents are. Can you figure out how he’s likely to act towards his flatterers and the parents he believed were his, both while he’s unaware of the truth and then again once he knows it? Or should I take a guess for you?

If you please.

If you would be so kind.

Then I should say, that while he is ignorant of the truth he will be likely to honour his father and his mother and his supposed relations more than the flatterers; he will be less inclined to neglect them when in need, or to do or say anything against them; and he will be less willing to disobey them in any important matter.

Then I should say that while he doesn't know the truth, he will probably respect his father and mother and his supposed relatives more than the people who flatter him. He will be less likely to ignore them when they need help, or to do or say anything bad about them; and he will be less willing to disobey them in any important situation.

He will.

He will.

But when he has made the discovery, I should imagine that he would diminish his honour and regard for them, and would become more devoted to the flatterers; their influence over him would greatly increase; he would now live after their ways, and openly associate with them, and, unless he were of an unusually good disposition, he would trouble himself no more about his supposed parents or other relations.

But when he realizes the truth, I can imagine he would feel less respect and honor for them, and would become more devoted to the people who flatter him; their influence over him would grow significantly. He would start living like them and openly hang out with them, and unless he had an unusually good character, he wouldn't care about his supposed parents or other relatives anymore.

Well, all that is very probable. But how is the image applicable to the disciples of philosophy?

Well, that all sounds likely. But how does this relate to the followers of philosophy?

In this way: you know that there are certain principles about justice and honour, which were taught us in childhood, and under their parental authority we have been brought up, obeying and honouring them.

In this way: you know that there are certain principles about justice and honor that we were taught in childhood, and under the guidance of our parents, we grew up obeying and respecting them.

That is true.

That's true.

There are also opposite maxims and habits of pleasure which flatter and attract the soul, but do not influence those of us who have any sense of right, and they continue to obey and honour the maxims of their fathers.

There are also opposite principles and habits of pleasure that flatter and draw in the soul, but they don’t affect those of us who have a sense of what’s right, and we continue to follow and respect the principles of our parents.

True.

True.

Now, when a man is in this state, and the questioning spirit asks what is fair or honourable, and he answers as the legislator has taught him, and then arguments many and diverse refute his words, until he is driven into believing that nothing is honourable any more than dishonourable, or just and good any more than the reverse, and so of all the notions which he most valued, do you think that he will still honour and obey them as before?

Now, when a man is in this position, and the questioning spirit asks what is fair or honorable, and he responds as the legislator has taught him, and then various arguments challenge his words, until he is led to believe that nothing is any more honorable than it is dishonorable, or just and good any more than the opposite, and so with all the beliefs he once valued, do you think he will still respect and follow them like he did before?

Impossible.

Not happening.

And when he ceases to think them honourable and natural as heretofore, and he fails to discover the true, can he be expected to pursue any life other than that which flatters his desires?

And when he stops seeing them as honorable and natural like he used to, and he can't find the truth, can we really expect him to seek a life that isn't just about feeding his desires?

He cannot.

He can't.

And from being a keeper of the law he is converted into a breaker of it?

And from being a person who upholds the law, he becomes a lawbreaker?

Unquestionably.

Definitely.

Now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have described, and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable.

Now, all of this is completely normal for the philosophy students I've described, and, as I've just mentioned, it's also quite understandable.

Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable.

Yes, he said; and I might add, pathetic.

Therefore, that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our citizens who are now thirty years of age, every care must be taken in introducing them to dialectic.

Therefore, to ensure that you don't feel pity for our citizens who are now thirty years old, we must be very careful in introducing them to dialectic.

Certainly.

Sure.

There is a danger lest they should taste the dear delight too early; for youngsters, as you may have observed, when they first get the taste in their mouths, argue for amusement, and are always contradicting and refuting others in imitation of those who refute them; like puppy-dogs, they rejoice in pulling and tearing at all who come near them.

There’s a risk that they might experience the precious joy too soon; because kids, as you may have noticed, when they first have a taste of it, seek fun and constantly argue and contradict others in imitation of those who challenge them; like puppies, they take pleasure in tugging and biting at anyone who gets close to them.

Yes, he said, there is nothing which they like better.

Yes, he said, there's nothing they enjoy more.

And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not believing anything which they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy and all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the world.

And when they have achieved many victories and suffered defeats from various people, they quickly and aggressively adopt a mindset of disbelief in everything they once believed, which leads not just to their downfall, but also to philosophy and everything connected to it gaining a bad reputation among others.

Too true, he said.

So true, he said.

But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of such insanity; he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and not the eristic, who is contradicting for the sake of amusement; and the greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing the honour of the pursuit.

But as a man gets older, he won't be guilty of such foolishness anymore; he'll resemble the critical thinker who is genuinely seeking the truth, rather than the contrarian who argues just for fun. His greater self-control will enhance, rather than lessen, the value of his quest.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And did we not make special provision for this, when we said that the disciples of philosophy were to be orderly and steadfast, not, as now, any chance aspirant or intruder?

And didn’t we make special arrangements for this when we stated that the followers of philosophy should be organized and committed, rather than allowing any random seeker or outsider?

Very true.

So true.

Suppose, I said, the study of philosophy to take the place of gymnastics and to be continued diligently and earnestly and exclusively for twice the number of years which were passed in bodily exercise—will that be enough?

Suppose, I said, that studying philosophy takes the place of gym class and is pursued diligently, seriously, and exclusively for double the amount of time spent on physical exercise—will that be enough?

Would you say six or four years? he asked.

"Would you say six or four years?" he asked.

Say five years, I replied; at the end of the time they must be sent down again into the den and compelled to hold any military or other office which young men are qualified to hold: in this way they will get their experience of life, and there will be an opportunity of trying whether, when they are drawn all manner of ways by temptation, they will stand firm or flinch.

Say five years, I replied; at the end of that time they must be sent back down into the den and required to take on any military or other role suited for young men: this way they'll gain real-life experience, and there will be a chance to see whether, when they're pulled in all sorts of directions by temptation, they'll stand strong or back down.

And how long is this stage of their lives to last?

And how long will this phase of their lives last?

Fifteen years, I answered; and when they have reached fifty years of age, then let those who still survive and have distinguished themselves in every action of their lives and in every branch of knowledge come at last to their consummation: the time has now arrived at which they must raise the eye of the soul to the universal light which lightens all things, and behold the absolute good; for that is the pattern according to which they are to order the State and the lives of individuals, and the remainder of their own lives also; making philosophy their chief pursuit, but, when their turn comes, toiling also at politics and ruling for the public good, not as though they were performing some heroic action, but simply as a matter of duty; and when they have brought up in each generation others like themselves and left them in their place to be governors of the State, then they will depart to the Islands of the Blest and dwell there; and the city will give them public memorials and sacrifices and honour them, if the Pythian oracle consent, as demigods, but if not, as in any case blessed and divine.

Fifteen years, I replied; and when they reach the age of fifty, let those who are still alive and have excelled in every aspect of their lives and in every field of knowledge finally come to their fulfillment: the time has come for them to lift the eyes of their souls to the universal light that illuminates all things, and see the ultimate good; for that is the model by which they should organize the State and the lives of individuals, as well as the rest of their own lives; prioritizing philosophy as their main focus, but when it's their turn, also engaging in politics and ruling for the public good, not as if they were doing something heroic, but simply out of obligation; and when they have educated each generation to be like them and left them in charge to govern the State, then they will go to the Islands of the Blest and live there; and the city will honor them with public memorials and sacrifices and will recognize them, if the Pythian oracle agrees, as demigods, but if not, then as blessed and divine in any case.

You are a sculptor, Socrates, and have made statues of our governors faultless in beauty.

You are a sculptor, Socrates, and have created flawless statues of our leaders.

Yes, I said, Glaucon, and of our governesses too; for you must not suppose that what I have been saying applies to men only and not to women as far as their natures can go.

Yes, I said, Glaucon, and of our caretakers too; for you mustn't think that what I've been saying only applies to men and not to women as far as their capabilities allow.

There you are right, he said, since we have made them to share in all things like the men.

There you are right, he said, since we've made them share in everything like the men.

Well, I said, and you would agree (would you not?) that what has been said about the State and the government is not a mere dream, and although difficult not impossible, but only possible in the way which has been supposed; that is to say, when the true philosopher kings are born in a State, one or more of them, despising the honours of this present world which they deem mean and worthless, esteeming above all things right and the honour that springs from right, and regarding justice as the greatest and most necessary of all things, whose ministers they are, and whose principles will be exalted by them when they set in order their own city?

Well, I said, and you would agree (wouldn’t you?) that what has been said about the State and the government isn’t just a fantasy. It may be challenging, but it’s not impossible. It can only happen the way we’ve described: when true philosopher-kings arise in a State, one or more of them, who look down on the honors of this world as trivial and worthless, valuing above all else what is right and the honor that comes from it, seeing justice as the most important and necessary thing of all, which they serve as its leaders, and whose principles they will elevate when they organize their own city?

How will they proceed?

What's their next step?

They will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the city who are more than ten years old, and will take possession of their children, who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents; these they will train in their own habits and laws, I mean in the laws which we have given them: and in this way the State and constitution of which we were speaking will soonest and most easily attain happiness, and the nation which has such a constitution will gain most.

They will start by expelling all city residents over the age of ten into the countryside and will take custody of their children, who won’t be influenced by their parents’ ways. These children will be raised according to their own customs and laws, specifically the laws we’ve provided. In this way, the state and constitution we were discussing will quickly and easily achieve happiness, and the nation with such a constitution will benefit the most.

Yes, that will be the best way. And I think, Socrates, that you have very well described how, if ever, such a constitution might come into being.

Yes, that will be the best way. And I think, Socrates, that you have nicely explained how, if it ever happens, such a system might come to exist.

Enough then of the perfect State, and of the man who bears its image—there is no difficulty in seeing how we shall describe him.

Enough talk about the perfect State and the person who embodies it—it's easy to see how we will describe him.

There is no difficulty, he replied; and I agree with you in thinking that nothing more need be said.

There’s no problem, he replied; and I agree with you that there’s nothing more to discuss.

BOOK VIII.

And so, Glaucon, we have arrived at the conclusion that in the perfect State wives and children are to be in common; and that all education and the pursuits of war and peace are also to be common, and the best philosophers and the bravest warriors are to be their kings?

And so, Glaucon, we’ve come to the conclusion that in the ideal society, wives and children should be shared; and that all education and the practices of war and peace should also be shared, with the best philosophers and the most courageous warriors serving as their leaders?

That, replied Glaucon, has been acknowledged.

That, Glaucon replied, has been acknowledged.

Yes, I said; and we have further acknowledged that the governors, when appointed themselves, will take their soldiers and place them in houses such as we were describing, which are common to all, and contain nothing private, or individual; and about their property, you remember what we agreed?

Yes, I said; and we've also agreed that the governors, once they are appointed, will take their soldiers and put them in shared housing like the ones we were discussing, which are public and have no private or individual space; and regarding their property, do you remember what we agreed?

Yes, I remember that no one was to have any of the ordinary possessions of mankind; they were to be warrior athletes and guardians, receiving from the other citizens, in lieu of annual payment, only their maintenance, and they were to take care of themselves and of the whole State.

Yes, I remember that no one was supposed to have any typical belongings; they were meant to be warrior athletes and protectors, receiving only their upkeep from the other citizens instead of a yearly salary, and they were responsible for taking care of themselves and the entire State.

True, I said; and now that this division of our task is concluded, let us find the point at which we digressed, that we may return into the old path.

Sure, I said; and now that we've finished this part of our work, let’s figure out where we got sidetracked so we can get back on the right track.

There is no difficulty in returning; you implied, then as now, that you had finished the description of the State: you said that such a State was good, and that the man was good who answered to it, although, as now appears, you had more excellent things to relate both of State and man. And you said further, that if this was the true form, then the others were false; and of the false forms, you said, as I remember, that there were four principal ones, and that their defects, and the defects of the individuals corresponding to them, were worth examining. When we had seen all the individuals, and finally agreed as to who was the best and who was the worst of them, we were to consider whether the best was not also the happiest, and the worst the most miserable. I asked you what were the four forms of government of which you spoke, and then Polemarchus and Adeimantus put in their word; and you began again, and have found your way to the point at which we have now arrived.

There’s no trouble in going back; you suggested, then as you do now, that you had wrapped up the description of the State. You claimed that such a State was good and that a person who fit that description was good, although, as it turns out now, you had even better things to say about both the State and the person. You also mentioned that if this was the true form, then the others were false. From those false forms, if I remember correctly, you identified four main ones, and you pointed out that their flaws, along with the flaws of the people who fit them, were worth examining. Once we had looked at all the individuals and finally agreed on who was the best and who was the worst among them, we were supposed to figure out whether the best was also the happiest and the worst the most miserable. I asked you what the four forms of government were that you talked about, and then Polemarchus and Adeimantus chimed in; you started again and have made your way to where we are now.

Your recollection, I said, is most exact.

Your memory, I said, is spot on.

Then, like a wrestler, he replied, you must put yourself again in the same position; and let me ask the same questions, and do you give me the same answer which you were about to give me then.

Then, like a wrestler, he replied, you need to put yourself back in the same position; and let me ask the same questions, and you give me the same answer you were about to give me back then.

Yes, if I can, I will, I said.

Yes, if I can, I will, I said.

I shall particularly wish to hear what were the four constitutions of which you were speaking.

I really want to know what the four constitutions you were talking about are.

That question, I said, is easily answered: the four governments of which I spoke, so far as they have distinct names, are, first, those of Crete and Sparta, which are generally applauded; what is termed oligarchy comes next; this is not equally approved, and is a form of government which teems with evils: thirdly, democracy, which naturally follows oligarchy, although very different: and lastly comes tyranny, great and famous, which differs from them all, and is the fourth and worst disorder of a State. I do not know, do you? of any other constitution which can be said to have a distinct character. There are lordships and principalities which are bought and sold, and some other intermediate forms of government. But these are nondescripts and may be found equally among Hellenes and among barbarians.

That question, I said, has an easy answer: the four governments I mentioned, as far as they have specific names, are first, those of Crete and Sparta, which are generally praised; next is oligarchy, which isn’t as well-regarded and is a type of government filled with problems; third is democracy, which follows oligarchy naturally but is quite different; and lastly, there’s tyranny, infamous and severe, which is unlike all the others and is the fourth and worst disorder of a state. I don’t know, do you? of any other government that can be said to have a clear character. There are lordships and principalities that are bought and sold, along with some other mixed forms of government. But these don’t fit into clear categories and can be found among both Greeks and non-Greeks.

Yes, he replied, we certainly hear of many curious forms of government which exist among them.

Yes, he replied, we definitely hear about many interesting types of government that exist among them.

Do you know, I said, that governments vary as the dispositions of men vary, and that there must be as many of the one as there are of the other? For we cannot suppose that States are made of ‘oak and rock,’ and not out of the human natures which are in them, and which in a figure turn the scale and draw other things after them?

Do you realize, I said, that governments change just like people's attitudes change, and that there must be as many different governments as there are different kinds of people? We can't think that countries are built from 'oak and rock,' and not from the human natures that exist within them, which, in a way, tip the scales and influence everything else around them?

Yes, he said, the States are as the men are; they grow out of human characters.

Yes, he said, the states are like the people; they develop from human nature.

Then if the constitutions of States are five, the dispositions of individual minds will also be five?

Then if there are five types of state constitutions, will there also be five types of individual perspectives?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Him who answers to aristocracy, and whom we rightly call just and good, we have already described.

Him who is part of the aristocracy, and whom we rightly refer to as just and good, we have already described.

We have.

We have.

Then let us now proceed to describe the inferior sort of natures, being the contentious and ambitious, who answer to the Spartan polity; also the oligarchical, democratical, and tyrannical. Let us place the most just by the side of the most unjust, and when we see them we shall be able to compare the relative happiness or unhappiness of him who leads a life of pure justice or pure injustice. The enquiry will then be completed. And we shall know whether we ought to pursue injustice, as Thrasymachus advises, or in accordance with the conclusions of the argument to prefer justice.

Then let's now describe the lower types of characters, specifically the argumentative and ambitious ones, which correspond to the Spartan system; also the oligarchical, democratic, and tyrannical types. We'll put the most just next to the most unjust, and by observing them, we can compare the relative happiness or unhappiness of someone living a life of total justice versus total injustice. This examination will then be finished. And we'll find out whether we should chase after injustice, as Thrasymachus suggests, or, based on our discussion, choose to value justice instead.

Certainly, he replied, we must do as you say.

Certainly, he replied, we should do what you suggest.

Shall we follow our old plan, which we adopted with a view to clearness, of taking the State first and then proceeding to the individual, and begin with the government of honour?—I know of no name for such a government other than timocracy, or perhaps timarchy. We will compare with this the like character in the individual; and, after that, consider oligarchy and the oligarchical man; and then again we will turn our attention to democracy and the democratical man; and lastly, we will go and view the city of tyranny, and once more take a look into the tyrant’s soul, and try to arrive at a satisfactory decision.

Should we stick to our original plan, which we chose for clarity, starting with the state and then moving on to the individual, and begin with the concept of honor in governance?—I can only refer to such a government as timocracy, or maybe timarchy. We will compare this to the same traits in individuals; then, we’ll look into oligarchy and the oligarchic person; next, we’ll focus on democracy and the democratic individual; and finally, we will examine the city under tyranny and take another look at the tyrant’s soul in an effort to reach a clear conclusion.

That way of viewing and judging of the matter will be very suitable.

That way of looking at and judging the situation will be very appropriate.

First, then, I said, let us enquire how timocracy (the government of honour) arises out of aristocracy (the government of the best). Clearly, all political changes originate in divisions of the actual governing power; a government which is united, however small, cannot be moved.

First, I said, let’s explore how timocracy (the government of honor) comes from aristocracy (the government of the best). Clearly, all political changes start from divisions within the actual governing power; a government that is united, no matter how small, cannot be easily shaken.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

In what way, then, will our city be moved, and in what manner will the two classes of auxiliaries and rulers disagree among themselves or with one another? Shall we, after the manner of Homer, pray the Muses to tell us ‘how discord first arose’? Shall we imagine them in solemn mockery, to play and jest with us as if we were children, and to address us in a lofty tragic vein, making believe to be in earnest?

In what way, then, will our city be affected, and how will the two groups of helpers and leaders conflict with each other? Should we, like Homer, ask the Muses to explain ‘how discord first arose’? Should we picture them in a serious yet playful way, treating us like children, and speaking to us in a grand, dramatic manner, pretending to be genuine?

How would they address us?

How would they talk to us?

After this manner:—A city which is thus constituted can hardly be shaken; but, seeing that everything which has a beginning has also an end, even a constitution such as yours will not last for ever, but will in time be dissolved. And this is the dissolution:—In plants that grow in the earth, as well as in animals that move on the earth’s surface, fertility and sterility of soul and body occur when the circumferences of the circles of each are completed, which in short-lived existences pass over a short space, and in long-lived ones over a long space. But to the knowledge of human fecundity and sterility all the wisdom and education of your rulers will not attain; the laws which regulate them will not be discovered by an intelligence which is alloyed with sense, but will escape them, and they will bring children into the world when they ought not. Now that which is of divine birth has a period which is contained in a perfect number (i.e. a cyclical number, such as 6, which is equal to the sum of its divisors 1, 2, 3, so that when the circle or time represented by 6 is completed, the lesser times or rotations represented by 1, 2, 3 are also completed.), but the period of human birth is comprehended in a number in which first increments by involution and evolution (or squared and cubed) obtaining three intervals and four terms of like and unlike, waxing and waning numbers, make all the terms commensurable and agreeable to one another. (Probably the numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 of which the three first = the sides of the Pythagorean triangle. The terms will then be 3 cubed, 4 cubed, 5 cubed, which together = 6 cubed = 216.) The base of these (3) with a third added (4) when combined with five (20) and raised to the third power furnishes two harmonies; the first a square which is a hundred times as great (400 = 4 x 100) (Or the first a square which is 100 x 100 = 10,000. The whole number will then be 17,500 = a square of 100, and an oblong of 100 by 75.), and the other a figure having one side equal to the former, but oblong, consisting of a hundred numbers squared upon rational diameters of a square (i.e. omitting fractions), the side of which is five (7 x 7 = 49 x 100 = 4900), each of them being less by one (than the perfect square which includes the fractions, sc. 50) or less by (Or, ‘consisting of two numbers squared upon irrational diameters,’ etc. = 100. For other explanations of the passage see Introduction.) two perfect squares of irrational diameters (of a square the side of which is five = 50 + 50 = 100); and a hundred cubes of three (27 x 100 = 2700 + 4900 + 400 = 8000). Now this number represents a geometrical figure which has control over the good and evil of births. For when your guardians are ignorant of the law of births, and unite bride and bridegroom out of season, the children will not be goodly or fortunate. And though only the best of them will be appointed by their predecessors, still they will be unworthy to hold their fathers’ places, and when they come into power as guardians, they will soon be found to fail in taking care of us, the Muses, first by under-valuing music; which neglect will soon extend to gymnastic; and hence the young men of your State will be less cultivated. In the succeeding generation rulers will be appointed who have lost the guardian power of testing the metal of your different races, which, like Hesiod’s, are of gold and silver and brass and iron. And so iron will be mingled with silver, and brass with gold, and hence there will arise dissimilarity and inequality and irregularity, which always and in all places are causes of hatred and war. This the Muses affirm to be the stock from which discord has sprung, wherever arising; and this is their answer to us.

After this manner:—A city organized like this can hardly be shaken; however, since everything that begins must also end, even a constitution like yours will not last forever and will eventually break down. This breakdown happens like this: In plants that grow in the ground and animals that move on the earth's surface, fertility and sterility of both body and soul occur when each circle's circumference is complete. For short-lived beings, this happens over a short time, and for long-lived beings, over a longer time. However, the understanding of human fertility and sterility will elude even all the wisdom and education of your leaders; the laws that govern these matters cannot be uncovered by any reasoning mixed with physical senses. They will have children when they should not. What is born of the divine has a period contained within a perfect number (like a cyclical number, such as 6, which equals the sum of its divisors 1, 2, and 3, so that when the time represented by 6 is fulfilled, the smaller times represented by 1, 2, and 3 are also completed). However, the period of human birth is expressed in a number where first increments through involution and evolution (or squared and cubed) creating three intervals and four terms of similar and dissimilar, increasing and decreasing numbers, render all terms comparable and harmonious with one another. (Likely the numbers 3, 4, 5, and 6, of which the first three form the sides of the Pythagorean triangle. The terms will then be 3 cubed, 4 cubed, 5 cubed, which together equal 6 cubed = 216.) The base of these (3), with an additional third (4), when combined with five (20) and raised to the third power, provides two harmonies: the first a square that is a hundred times greater (400 = 4 x 100) (or the first as a square which is 100 x 100 = 10,000. The total number will then be 17,500 = a square of 100 and an oblong of 100 by 75), and the second a figure with one side equal to the former, but oblong, consisting of a hundred numbers squared upon rational diameters of a square (that is, ignoring fractions), the side of which is five (7 x 7 = 49 x 100 = 4900), each being one less (than the perfect square that includes the fractions, i.e., 50) or less by two perfect squares of irrational diameters (a square with a side of five = 50 + 50 = 100); and a hundred cubes of three (27 x 100 = 2700 + 4900 + 400 = 8000). This number represents a geometrical figure that governs the good and bad of births. When your guardians are unaware of the laws of births and unite couples out of season, the resulting children will be neither good nor lucky. And even though only the best among them will be appointed by their predecessors, still, they will be unfit to take their fathers’ places. When they gain power as guardians, they will quickly fail to care for us, the Muses, starting by under-valuing music; this neglect will soon extend to physical training, and as a result, the young men of your State will be less developed. In the next generation, leaders will be chosen who lack the guardian ability to evaluate the quality of your various races, which, like Hesiod described, consist of gold, silver, brass, and iron. As a result, iron will mix with silver, and brass with gold, leading to differences, inequalities, and irregularities, which are always causes of hatred and war everywhere. The Muses affirm this is the source from which discord has emerged, wherever it arises; and this is their reply to us.

Yes, and we may assume that they answer truly.

Yes, and we can assume that they are answering honestly.

Why, yes, I said, of course they answer truly; how can the Muses speak falsely?

Why, yes, I said, of course they tell the truth; how could the Muses ever lie?

And what do the Muses say next?

And what do the Muses say next?

When discord arose, then the two races were drawn different ways: the iron and brass fell to acquiring money and land and houses and gold and silver; but the gold and silver races, not wanting money but having the true riches in their own nature, inclined towards virtue and the ancient order of things. There was a battle between them, and at last they agreed to distribute their land and houses among individual owners; and they enslaved their friends and maintainers, whom they had formerly protected in the condition of freemen, and made of them subjects and servants; and they themselves were engaged in war and in keeping a watch against them.

When conflict broke out, the two races went in different directions: the iron and brass races focused on acquiring money, land, homes, and wealth; while the gold and silver races, not interested in money but possessing true value within themselves, leaned towards virtue and the way things used to be. A battle unfolded between them, and eventually, they agreed to divide their land and homes among individual owners. They enslaved their friends and supporters, whom they had previously protected as free individuals, turning them into subjects and servants; meanwhile, they were caught up in war and on guard against their former allies.

I believe that you have rightly conceived the origin of the change.

I think you’ve accurately figured out where the change came from.

And the new government which thus arises will be of a form intermediate between oligarchy and aristocracy?

And the new government that emerges will be a mix between oligarchy and aristocracy?

Very true.

So true.

Such will be the change, and after the change has been made, how will they proceed? Clearly, the new State, being in a mean between oligarchy and the perfect State, will partly follow one and partly the other, and will also have some peculiarities.

Such will be the change, and after the change has been made, how will they move forward? Clearly, the new State, existing somewhere between oligarchy and the perfect State, will partially adopt elements of both and will also have some unique features.

True, he said.

True, he said.

In the honour given to rulers, in the abstinence of the warrior class from agriculture, handicrafts, and trade in general, in the institution of common meals, and in the attention paid to gymnastics and military training—in all these respects this State will resemble the former.

In the honor given to leaders, in the avoidance of the warrior class from farming, crafts, and trade overall, in the practice of shared meals, and in the focus on physical training and military preparation—in all these ways, this State will be similar to the past.

True.

True.

But in the fear of admitting philosophers to power, because they are no longer to be had simple and earnest, but are made up of mixed elements; and in turning from them to passionate and less complex characters, who are by nature fitted for war rather than peace; and in the value set by them upon military stratagems and contrivances, and in the waging of everlasting wars—this State will be for the most part peculiar.

But out of fear of letting philosophers have power, since they can no longer be straightforward and sincere but are now a mix of different influences; and by turning to more emotional and less complicated individuals, who are naturally better suited for war than for peace; and by the importance they place on military tactics and strategies, as well as on fighting endless wars—this State will mostly be unique.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, I said; and men of this stamp will be covetous of money, like those who live in oligarchies; they will have, a fierce secret longing after gold and silver, which they will hoard in dark places, having magazines and treasuries of their own for the deposit and concealment of them; also castles which are just nests for their eggs, and in which they will spend large sums on their wives, or on any others whom they please.

Yes, I said; and people like this will be greedy for money, just like those living in oligarchies; they will have a strong hidden desire for gold and silver, which they will stash away in dark places, with their own stores and treasure hoards for keeping and hiding them; also, they will have castles that serve merely as nests for their wealth, where they will spend large amounts on their wives or anyone else they choose.

That is most true, he said.

That's totally true, he said.

And they are miserly because they have no means of openly acquiring the money which they prize; they will spend that which is another man’s on the gratification of their desires, stealing their pleasures and running away like children from the law, their father: they have been schooled not by gentle influences but by force, for they have neglected her who is the true Muse, the companion of reason and philosophy, and have honoured gymnastic more than music.

And they're stingy because they can't openly get the money they value; they'll spend what belongs to someone else to satisfy their desires, snatching their pleasures and fleeing like kids from the law, their father. They've learned not through gentle means but by force, as they've ignored her who is the true Muse, the partner of reason and philosophy, and have valued physical training more than music.

Undoubtedly, he said, the form of government which you describe is a mixture of good and evil.

Undoubtedly, he said, the type of government you describe is a mix of good and bad.

Why, there is a mixture, I said; but one thing, and one thing only, is predominantly seen,—the spirit of contention and ambition; and these are due to the prevalence of the passionate or spirited element.

Why, there is a mix, I said; but one thing, and one thing only, stands out—the spirit of rivalry and ambition; and these come from the dominance of the passionate or spirited element.

Assuredly, he said.

Sure, he said.

Such is the origin and such the character of this State, which has been described in outline only; the more perfect execution was not required, for a sketch is enough to show the type of the most perfectly just and most perfectly unjust; and to go through all the States and all the characters of men, omitting none of them, would be an interminable labour.

Such is the origin and nature of this State, which has only been outlined here; a detailed description wasn't necessary because a sketch is enough to illustrate the essence of both the most perfectly just and the most perfectly unjust. Going through all the States and all the types of people, without leaving any out, would be an endless task.

Very true, he replied.

So true, he replied.

Now what man answers to this form of government-how did he come into being, and what is he like?

Now, what kind of person fits this type of government—how did he come to be, and what is he like?

I think, said Adeimantus, that in the spirit of contention which characterises him, he is not unlike our friend Glaucon.

I think, Adeimantus said, that in his contentious spirit, he is quite similar to our friend Glaucon.

Perhaps, I said, he may be like him in that one point; but there are other respects in which he is very different.

Maybe, I said, he might be similar to him in that one way; but there are other aspects in which he is very different.

In what respects?

In what ways?

He should have more of self-assertion and be less cultivated, and yet a friend of culture; and he should be a good listener, but no speaker. Such a person is apt to be rough with slaves, unlike the educated man, who is too proud for that; and he will also be courteous to freemen, and remarkably obedient to authority; he is a lover of power and a lover of honour; claiming to be a ruler, not because he is eloquent, or on any ground of that sort, but because he is a soldier and has performed feats of arms; he is also a lover of gymnastic exercises and of the chase.

He should be more self-assured and less refined, but still appreciate culture; and he should be a good listener, but not much of a talker. This type of person might be rough with slaves, unlike the educated person who is too proud to do so. He will be courteous to free people and very respectful of authority; he loves power and honor, claiming to be a leader not because he is eloquent or for any similar reason, but because he is a soldier who has accomplished brave deeds. He also enjoys physical training and hunting.

Yes, that is the type of character which answers to timocracy.

Yes, that is the kind of character that corresponds to timocracy.

Such an one will despise riches only when he is young; but as he gets older he will be more and more attracted to them, because he has a piece of the avaricious nature in him, and is not single-minded towards virtue, having lost his best guardian.

Someone like that will look down on wealth only when they're young; but as they grow older, they'll become increasingly drawn to it, because they have a hint of greed in them and aren't entirely focused on virtue, having lost their best protector.

Who was that? said Adeimantus.

Who was that? asked Adeimantus.

Philosophy, I said, tempered with music, who comes and takes up her abode in a man, and is the only saviour of his virtue throughout life.

Philosophy, I said, mixed with music, comes and settles in a person, and is the only way to preserve his virtue throughout life.

Good, he said.

Sounds good, he said.

Such, I said, is the timocratical youth, and he is like the timocratical State.

Such, I said, is the youth who values honor, and he is like the state that values honor.

Exactly.

Exactly.

His origin is as follows:—He is often the young son of a brave father, who dwells in an ill-governed city, of which he declines the honours and offices, and will not go to law, or exert himself in any way, but is ready to waive his rights in order that he may escape trouble.

His origin is as follows:—He is often the young son of a brave father, who lives in a poorly governed city. He refuses honors and positions of power, won’t get involved in legal disputes, or put in any effort. Instead, he’s willing to give up his rights just to avoid trouble.

And how does the son come into being?

And how does the son come to be?

The character of the son begins to develope when he hears his mother complaining that her husband has no place in the government, of which the consequence is that she has no precedence among other women. Further, when she sees her husband not very eager about money, and instead of battling and railing in the law courts or assembly, taking whatever happens to him quietly; and when she observes that his thoughts always centre in himself, while he treats her with very considerable indifference, she is annoyed, and says to her son that his father is only half a man and far too easy-going: adding all the other complaints about her own ill-treatment which women are so fond of rehearsing.

The son’s character starts to develop when he hears his mother complaining that his father has no role in the government, which means she doesn’t have a high status among other women. Additionally, when she sees her husband not very interested in making money and instead of fighting in court or at the assembly, just accepting whatever happens to him without complaint; and when she notices that he always focuses on himself while treating her with a lot of indifference, she gets frustrated and tells her son that his father is only half a man and way too laid-back: adding all the other complaints about her own mistreatment that women often like to repeat.

Yes, said Adeimantus, they give us plenty of them, and their complaints are so like themselves.

Yes, Adeimantus replied, they give us plenty of them, and their complaints are just like them.

And you know, I said, that the old servants also, who are supposed to be attached to the family, from time to time talk privately in the same strain to the son; and if they see any one who owes money to his father, or is wronging him in any way, and he fails to prosecute them, they tell the youth that when he grows up he must retaliate upon people of this sort, and be more of a man than his father. He has only to walk abroad and he hears and sees the same sort of thing: those who do their own business in the city are called simpletons, and held in no esteem, while the busy-bodies are honoured and applauded. The result is that the young man, hearing and seeing all these things—hearing, too, the words of his father, and having a nearer view of his way of life, and making comparisons of him and others—is drawn opposite ways: while his father is watering and nourishing the rational principle in his soul, the others are encouraging the passionate and appetitive; and he being not originally of a bad nature, but having kept bad company, is at last brought by their joint influence to a middle point, and gives up the kingdom which is within him to the middle principle of contentiousness and passion, and becomes arrogant and ambitious.

And you know, I said, that the older servants, who are supposed to be loyal to the family, sometimes have private talks with the son. If they see someone who owes money to his father or is treating him unfairly, and he doesn’t take action against them, they tell him that when he grows up, he should get back at people like that and be more of a man than his father. All he has to do is go out, and he hears and sees the same thing: those who run their own businesses in the city are called fools and looked down upon, while the meddlesome people are praised and celebrated. As a result, the young man, hearing and seeing all of this—listening to his father’s words, getting a closer look at his life, and comparing him to others—is being pulled in different directions. While his father is nurturing the rational part of his soul, others are encouraging his emotions and desires. Being originally of decent nature but having kept bad company, he eventually ends up influenced by them to a middle ground, surrendering the inner kingdom to his ambitious and contentious side, becoming arrogant and driven.

You seem to me to have described his origin perfectly.

You seem to have described his background perfectly.

Then we have now, I said, the second form of government and the second type of character?

Then we have now, I said, the second form of government and the second type of character?

We have.

We've got it.

Next, let us look at another man who, as Aeschylus says,

Next, let’s look at another man who, as Aeschylus says,

‘Is set over against another State;’

‘Is opposed to another State;’

or rather, as our plan requires, begin with the State.

or rather, as our plan calls for, start with the State.

By all means.

Sure thing.

I believe that oligarchy follows next in order.

I think that oligarchy comes next in line.

And what manner of government do you term oligarchy?

And what kind of government do you call oligarchy?

A government resting on a valuation of property, in which the rich have power and the poor man is deprived of it.

A government based on property value, where the wealthy hold power and the poor person is denied it.

I understand, he replied.

Got it, he replied.

Ought I not to begin by describing how the change from timocracy to oligarchy arises?

Shouldn't I start by explaining how the shift from timocracy to oligarchy happens?

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I said, no eyes are required in order to see how the one passes into the other.

Well, I said, no eyes are needed to see how one thing leads into another.

How?

How?

The accumulation of gold in the treasury of private individuals is the ruin of timocracy; they invent illegal modes of expenditure; for what do they or their wives care about the law?

The gathering of gold in the hands of private individuals destroys a government based on property ownership; they find illegal ways to spend it; after all, what do they or their spouses care about the law?

Yes, indeed.

Yep, definitely.

And then one, seeing another grow rich, seeks to rival him, and thus the great mass of the citizens become lovers of money.

And then when one person sees another getting rich, they try to compete with them, and so a large number of citizens become obsessed with money.

Likely enough.

Probably.

And so they grow richer and richer, and the more they think of making a fortune the less they think of virtue; for when riches and virtue are placed together in the scales of the balance, the one always rises as the other falls.

And so they keep getting richer and richer, and the more they focus on making a fortune, the less they think about doing the right thing; because when wealth and virtue are weighed against each other, one always goes up as the other goes down.

True.

True.

And in proportion as riches and rich men are honoured in the State, virtue and the virtuous are dishonoured.

As wealth and wealthy people are celebrated in society, virtue and virtuous individuals are disrespected.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And what is honoured is cultivated, and that which has no honour is neglected.

And what is respected is nurtured, and what has no respect is ignored.

That is obvious.

That's clear.

And so at last, instead of loving contention and glory, men become lovers of trade and money; they honour and look up to the rich man, and make a ruler of him, and dishonour the poor man.

And so at last, instead of loving conflict and glory, people become lovers of business and wealth; they respect and look up to the rich person, making them a leader, while they disregard the poor person.

They do so.

They take action.

They next proceed to make a law which fixes a sum of money as the qualification of citizenship; the sum is higher in one place and lower in another, as the oligarchy is more or less exclusive; and they allow no one whose property falls below the amount fixed to have any share in the government. These changes in the constitution they effect by force of arms, if intimidation has not already done their work.

They then go on to create a law that sets a specific amount of money as the requirement for citizenship; this amount varies by location, depending on how exclusive the oligarchy is. They don’t allow anyone whose wealth is below the specified amount to participate in the government. They make these constitutional changes by using force, if intimidation hasn’t already accomplished their goals.

Very true.

So true.

And this, speaking generally, is the way in which oligarchy is established.

And this, in general terms, is how oligarchy is formed.

Yes, he said; but what are the characteristics of this form of government, and what are the defects of which we were speaking?

Yes, he said; but what are the features of this type of government, and what are the flaws we were discussing?

First of all, I said, consider the nature of the qualification. Just think what would happen if pilots were to be chosen according to their property, and a poor man were refused permission to steer, even though he were a better pilot?

First of all, I said, think about the nature of the qualification. Just imagine what would happen if pilots were selected based on their wealth, and a poor person was denied the chance to fly, even if they were a better pilot?

You mean that they would shipwreck?

You mean they would get shipwrecked?

Yes; and is not this true of the government of anything?

Yes; and isn't this true for the governance of anything?

I should imagine so.

I guess so.

Except a city?—or would you include a city?

Except a city? Or would you count a city?

Nay, he said, the case of a city is the strongest of all, inasmuch as the rule of a city is the greatest and most difficult of all.

No, he said, the situation of a city is the most significant of all, because governing a city is the most challenging and substantial of all.

This, then, will be the first great defect of oligarchy?

This will be the first major flaw of oligarchy, then?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And here is another defect which is quite as bad.

And here's another issue that's just as serious.

What defect?

What flaw?

The inevitable division: such a State is not one, but two States, the one of poor, the other of rich men; and they are living on the same spot and always conspiring against one another.

The unavoidable division: this State isn’t one, but two States—the one of the poor and the other of the rich; and they exist in the same place, always plotting against each other.

That, surely, is at least as bad.

That has to be just as bad.

Another discreditable feature is, that, for a like reason, they are incapable of carrying on any war. Either they arm the multitude, and then they are more afraid of them than of the enemy; or, if they do not call them out in the hour of battle, they are oligarchs indeed, few to fight as they are few to rule. And at the same time their fondness for money makes them unwilling to pay taxes.

Another shameful trait is that, for the same reason, they can't effectively engage in any war. They either arm the masses, making them more fearful of the people than the enemy, or if they don't rally them in the heat of battle, they are truly oligarchs, just a few to fight as they are few to govern. At the same time, their love of money makes them reluctant to pay taxes.

How discreditable!

How disgraceful!

And, as we said before, under such a constitution the same persons have too many callings—they are husbandmen, tradesmen, warriors, all in one. Does that look well?

And, as we mentioned earlier, under such a system the same people have too many roles—they are farmers, merchants, and soldiers all at once. Does that seem right?

Anything but well.

Not doing well.

There is another evil which is, perhaps, the greatest of all, and to which this State first begins to be liable.

There is another evil that might be the greatest of all, and to which this state first starts to become vulnerable.

What evil?

What wrongdoing?

A man may sell all that he has, and another may acquire his property; yet after the sale he may dwell in the city of which he is no longer a part, being neither trader, nor artisan, nor horseman, nor hoplite, but only a poor, helpless creature.

A man can sell everything he owns, and someone else can take over his property; yet after the sale, he might still live in the city where he no longer belongs, not as a merchant, craftsman, horse rider, or soldier, but just as a poor, helpless soul.

Yes, that is an evil which also first begins in this State.

Yes, that is a problem that also starts in this State.

The evil is certainly not prevented there; for oligarchies have both the extremes of great wealth and utter poverty.

The evil is definitely not stopped there; because oligarchies have both extreme wealth and absolute poverty.

True.

True.

But think again: In his wealthy days, while he was spending his money, was a man of this sort a whit more good to the State for the purposes of citizenship? Or did he only seem to be a member of the ruling body, although in truth he was neither ruler nor subject, but just a spendthrift?

But think about it: During his wealthy days, when he was throwing his money around, was a guy like this really any more beneficial to the State for citizenship? Or did he just appear to be part of the ruling class, even though in reality he was neither a ruler nor a subject, but just a wasteful spender?

As you say, he seemed to be a ruler, but was only a spendthrift.

As you said, he appeared to be a leader, but he was just a wasteful spender.

May we not say that this is the drone in the house who is like the drone in the honeycomb, and that the one is the plague of the city as the other is of the hive?

May we not say that this is the drone in the house who is like the drone in the honeycomb, and that one is the plague of the city just like the other is of the hive?

Just so, Socrates.

Exactly, Socrates.

And God has made the flying drones, Adeimantus, all without stings, whereas of the walking drones he has made some without stings but others have dreadful stings; of the stingless class are those who in their old age end as paupers; of the stingers come all the criminal class, as they are termed.

And God has created flying drones, Adeimantus, all without stings, while among the walking drones, some have no stings, but others have terrible stings; those without stings are the ones who end up as beggars in their old age; from the stinging ones comes all the criminal class, as they are called.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

Clearly then, whenever you see paupers in a State, somewhere in that neighborhood there are hidden away thieves, and cut-purses and robbers of temples, and all sorts of malefactors.

Clearly then, whenever you see poor people in a State, somewhere in that area there are hidden thieves, pickpockets, temple robbers, and all kinds of wrongdoers.

Clearly.

Clearly.

Well, I said, and in oligarchical States do you not find paupers?

Well, I said, don’t you find poor people in oligarchical states?

Yes, he said; nearly everybody is a pauper who is not a ruler.

Yes, he said; almost everyone is poor unless they are in power.

And may we be so bold as to affirm that there are also many criminals to be found in them, rogues who have stings, and whom the authorities are careful to restrain by force?

And can we confidently say that there are also many criminals among them, con artists who have tricks up their sleeves, and whom the authorities are careful to control by force?

Certainly, we may be so bold.

Certainly, we can be that bold.

The existence of such persons is to be attributed to want of education, ill-training, and an evil constitution of the State?

The presence of such individuals can be attributed to a lack of education, poor training, and a flawed government system?

True.

True.

Such, then, is the form and such are the evils of oligarchy; and there may be many other evils.

Such is the nature of oligarchy, and there could be many other issues as well.

Very likely.

Highly likely.

Then oligarchy, or the form of government in which the rulers are elected for their wealth, may now be dismissed. Let us next proceed to consider the nature and origin of the individual who answers to this State.

Then we can move on from oligarchy, the type of government where leaders are chosen based on their wealth. Next, let's examine the nature and origins of the individual that corresponds to this State.

By all means.

Absolutely.

Does not the timocratical man change into the oligarchical on this wise?

Doesn't the man who values honor turn into an oligarch like this?

How?

How?

A time arrives when the representative of timocracy has a son: at first he begins by emulating his father and walking in his footsteps, but presently he sees him of a sudden foundering against the State as upon a sunken reef, and he and all that he has is lost; he may have been a general or some other high officer who is brought to trial under a prejudice raised by informers, and either put to death, or exiled, or deprived of the privileges of a citizen, and all his property taken from him.

A time comes when the leader of a timocracy has a son. At first, the son tries to mirror his father and follow in his footsteps, but suddenly he sees his father failing in the political arena like a shipwreck on a hidden reef, leading to the loss of everything he has. His father might have been a general or another high-ranking official who is put on trial due to bias from informers, resulting in his execution, exile, or loss of citizenship rights, along with the confiscation of all his assets.

Nothing more likely.

Nothing more probable.

And the son has seen and known all this—he is a ruined man, and his fear has taught him to knock ambition and passion headforemost from his bosom’s throne; humbled by poverty he takes to money-making and by mean and miserly savings and hard work gets a fortune together. Is not such an one likely to seat the concupiscent and covetous element on the vacant throne and to suffer it to play the great king within him, girt with tiara and chain and scimitar?

And the son has seen and understood all this—he's a broken man, and his fear has taught him to push ambition and passion out from their place in his heart; brought down by poverty, he focuses on making money, and through frugal habits and hard work, he gathers a fortune. Isn’t someone like that likely to let desire and greed take the empty throne inside him and allow it to act as the powerful ruler, adorned with a crown and a sword?

Most true, he replied.

Most true, he said.

And when he has made reason and spirit sit down on the ground obediently on either side of their sovereign, and taught them to know their place, he compels the one to think only of how lesser sums may be turned into larger ones, and will not allow the other to worship and admire anything but riches and rich men, or to be ambitious of anything so much as the acquisition of wealth and the means of acquiring it.

And when he gets reason and spirit to sit down obediently on either side of their ruler and teaches them their roles, he forces one to only think about how smaller amounts can be turned into larger ones, and doesn't let the other worship or admire anything but wealth and wealthy people, or aspire to anything as much as getting rich and the means to do so.

Of all changes, he said, there is none so speedy or so sure as the conversion of the ambitious youth into the avaricious one.

Of all changes, he said, none are as quick or as certain as the transformation of an ambitious young person into a greedy one.

And the avaricious, I said, is the oligarchical youth?

And the greedy, I asked, is he the wealthy young person?

Yes, he said; at any rate the individual out of whom he came is like the State out of which oligarchy came.

Yes, he said; in any case, the person he came from is similar to the State that gave rise to the oligarchy.

Let us then consider whether there is any likeness between them.

Let’s think about whether there’s any similarity between them.

Very good.

Great job.

First, then, they resemble one another in the value which they set upon wealth?

First, then, they look similar in the value they place on wealth.

Certainly.

Sure.

Also in their penurious, laborious character; the individual only satisfies his necessary appetites, and confines his expenditure to them; his other desires he subdues, under the idea that they are unprofitable.

Also in their poor, hardworking nature, the individual only fulfills his basic needs and limits his spending to those; he suppresses his other desires, believing that they are not worthwhile.

True.

True.

He is a shabby fellow, who saves something out of everything and makes a purse for himself; and this is the sort of man whom the vulgar applaud. Is he not a true image of the State which he represents?

He’s a scruffy guy who saves a bit from everything and makes a purse for himself; and this is the kind of person that the masses cheer for. Isn’t he a perfect representation of the State he stands for?

He appears to me to be so; at any rate money is highly valued by him as well as by the State.

He seems that way to me; anyway, he values money highly, just like the State does.

You see that he is not a man of cultivation, I said.

You can tell he's not a cultured guy, I said.

I imagine not, he said; had he been educated he would never have made a blind god director of his chorus, or given him chief honour.

I can't imagine that, he said; if he had been educated, he would never have made a blind guy the director of his choir or given him the top honor.

Excellent! I said. Yet consider: Must we not further admit that owing to this want of cultivation there will be found in him dronelike desires as of pauper and rogue, which are forcibly kept down by his general habit of life?

Awesome! I said. But think about this: Don’t we also have to acknowledge that because of this lack of development, there will be dronelike desires in him, similar to those of a poor person or a crook, which are held back by his overall way of living?

True.

True.

Do you know where you will have to look if you want to discover his rogueries?

Do you know where to look if you want to find out about his mischief?

Where must I look?

Where should I look?

You should see him where he has some great opportunity of acting dishonestly, as in the guardianship of an orphan.

You should see him when he has a great chance to act dishonestly, like in the guardianship of an orphan.

Aye.

Yeah.

It will be clear enough then that in his ordinary dealings which give him a reputation for honesty he coerces his bad passions by an enforced virtue; not making them see that they are wrong, or taming them by reason, but by necessity and fear constraining them, and because he trembles for his possessions.

It will be clear enough then that in his everyday interactions, which earn him a reputation for honesty, he suppresses his worse impulses through forced virtue; he's not showing them that they are wrong or controlling them through reason, but rather by necessity and fear, holding them back because he is afraid of losing what he has.

To be sure.

For sure.

Yes, indeed, my dear friend, but you will find that the natural desires of the drone commonly exist in him all the same whenever he has to spend what is not his own.

Yes, truly, my dear friend, but you'll notice that the natural desires of the drone usually appear in him whenever he has to spend someone else's money.

Yes, and they will be strong in him too.

Yes, and they will be strong in him as well.

The man, then, will be at war with himself; he will be two men, and not one; but, in general, his better desires will be found to prevail over his inferior ones.

The man will be at war with himself; he will be two people, not one; but, generally, his better desires will tend to win out over his weaker ones.

True.

True.

For these reasons such an one will be more respectable than most people; yet the true virtue of a unanimous and harmonious soul will flee far away and never come near him.

For these reasons, someone like that will be more respected than most people; however, the true virtue of a united and harmonious spirit will stay far away and will never come close to him.

I should expect so.

I guess so.

And surely, the miser individually will be an ignoble competitor in a State for any prize of victory, or other object of honourable ambition; he will not spend his money in the contest for glory; so afraid is he of awakening his expensive appetites and inviting them to help and join in the struggle; in true oligarchical fashion he fights with a small part only of his resources, and the result commonly is that he loses the prize and saves his money.

And definitely, a miser will be a lowly competitor in a society for any victory or honorable goal; he won’t spend his money in the pursuit of glory, fearing that it will stir up his costly desires and bring them into the competition. True to an oligarchical mindset, he only fights with a small portion of his resources, and as a result, he usually loses the prize while saving his money.

Very true.

So true.

Can we any longer doubt, then, that the miser and money-maker answers to the oligarchical State?

Can we still doubt that the miser and the money-maker correspond to the oligarchical State?

There can be no doubt.

No doubt about it.

Next comes democracy; of this the origin and nature have still to be considered by us; and then we will enquire into the ways of the democratic man, and bring him up for judgment.

Next comes democracy; we still need to consider its origin and nature; then we will examine the behavior of the democratic person and bring him up for judgment.

That, he said, is our method.

That, he said, is our approach.

Well, I said, and how does the change from oligarchy into democracy arise? Is it not on this wise?—The good at which such a State aims is to become as rich as possible, a desire which is insatiable?

Well, I said, how does the shift from oligarchy to democracy happen? Isn’t it like this? The goal of that State is to become as wealthy as possible, a desire that can never be fully satisfied?

What then?

What's next?

The rulers, being aware that their power rests upon their wealth, refuse to curtail by law the extravagance of the spendthrift youth because they gain by their ruin; they take interest from them and buy up their estates and thus increase their own wealth and importance?

The rulers know that their power comes from their wealth, so they won't legally limit the spending of wealthy young people because they benefit from their downfall; they charge them interest and buy their properties, which boosts their own wealth and status.

To be sure.

For sure.

There can be no doubt that the love of wealth and the spirit of moderation cannot exist together in citizens of the same state to any considerable extent; one or the other will be disregarded.

There’s no doubt that a love for wealth and a mindset of moderation can’t coexist to a significant degree among the citizens of the same state; one will be overlooked in favor of the other.

That is tolerably clear.

That's pretty clear.

And in oligarchical States, from the general spread of carelessness and extravagance, men of good family have often been reduced to beggary?

And in oligarchic states, due to widespread carelessness and extravagance, well-born individuals have often ended up in poverty?

Yes, often.

Yeah, often.

And still they remain in the city; there they are, ready to sting and fully armed, and some of them owe money, some have forfeited their citizenship; a third class are in both predicaments; and they hate and conspire against those who have got their property, and against everybody else, and are eager for revolution.

And yet they still stay in the city; there they are, ready to strike and fully prepared, with some of them in debt, some who have lost their citizenship; a third group falls into both categories; and they resent and plot against those who have taken their property, as well as against everyone else, and are itching for a revolution.

That is true.

That's true.

On the other hand, the men of business, stooping as they walk, and pretending not even to see those whom they have already ruined, insert their sting—that is, their money—into some one else who is not on his guard against them, and recover the parent sum many times over multiplied into a family of children: and so they make drone and pauper to abound in the State.

On the flip side, the businessmen, hunched over as they walk and acting like they don't even notice the people they've already harmed, inject their poison—that is, their money—into someone else who isn't prepared for them, and they end up getting back the original amount multiplied numerous times through a whole bunch of dependents: and so they create a surplus of freeloaders and the poor in society.

Yes, he said, there are plenty of them—that is certain.

Yes, he said, there are a lot of them—that's for sure.

The evil blazes up like a fire; and they will not extinguish it, either by restricting a man’s use of his own property, or by another remedy:

The evil flares up like a fire; and they won't put it out, either by limiting a person’s use of their own property or by some other solution:

What other?

Which other?

One which is the next best, and has the advantage of compelling the citizens to look to their characters:—Let there be a general rule that every one shall enter into voluntary contracts at his own risk, and there will be less of this scandalous money-making, and the evils of which we were speaking will be greatly lessened in the State.

One that is the next best option and encourages citizens to reflect on their character:—There should be a general rule that everyone enters into voluntary contracts at their own risk, which will reduce this scandalous money-making, and the issues we discussed will be greatly diminished in the State.

Yes, they will be greatly lessened.

Yes, they will be significantly reduced.

At present the governors, induced by the motives which I have named, treat their subjects badly; while they and their adherents, especially the young men of the governing class, are habituated to lead a life of luxury and idleness both of body and mind; they do nothing, and are incapable of resisting either pleasure or pain.

Right now, the governors, driven by the reasons I've mentioned, are treating their subjects poorly. Meanwhile, they and their supporters, especially the young men in power, have become accustomed to a life of luxury and laziness, both physically and mentally. They do nothing and can't withstand either pleasure or discomfort.

Very true.

So true.

They themselves care only for making money, and are as indifferent as the pauper to the cultivation of virtue.

They only care about making money and are just as indifferent as the poor person to the development of virtue.

Yes, quite as indifferent.

Yes, quite indifferent.

Such is the state of affairs which prevails among them. And often rulers and their subjects may come in one another’s way, whether on a journey or on some other occasion of meeting, on a pilgrimage or a march, as fellow-soldiers or fellow-sailors; aye and they may observe the behaviour of each other in the very moment of danger—for where danger is, there is no fear that the poor will be despised by the rich—and very likely the wiry sunburnt poor man may be placed in battle at the side of a wealthy one who has never spoilt his complexion and has plenty of superfluous flesh—when he sees such an one puffing and at his wits’-end, how can he avoid drawing the conclusion that men like him are only rich because no one has the courage to despoil them? And when they meet in private will not people be saying to one another ‘Our warriors are not good for much’?

This is the situation that exists among them. Often, rulers and their subjects might cross paths, whether while traveling or during some other occasion, like a pilgrimage or a march, as fellow soldiers or sailors. They can observe each other's behavior in moments of danger—because when danger arises, the poor won't be looked down upon by the rich. It's very likely that the lean, sunburned poor man finds himself fighting alongside a wealthy person who has never dirtied his skin and has a lot of extra weight. When he sees someone like that struggling and panicking, how can he not conclude that people like him are only rich because no one dares to take from them? And when they meet privately, won’t people say to each other, "Our warriors aren’t worth much”?

Yes, he said, I am quite aware that this is their way of talking.

Yes, he said, I know this is how they communicate.

And, as in a body which is diseased the addition of a touch from without may bring on illness, and sometimes even when there is no external provocation a commotion may arise within—in the same way wherever there is weakness in the State there is also likely to be illness, of which the occasion may be very slight, the one party introducing from without their oligarchical, the other their democratical allies, and then the State falls sick, and is at war with herself; and may be at times distracted, even when there is no external cause.

And just like a sick body, where even a small outside influence can trigger illness, a State with weaknesses can also become unwell. Sometimes, there may be no obvious external reason for this unrest. One group may bring in their oligarchic allies while another brings in their democratic allies, leading to internal conflict. As a result, the State suffers and is in turmoil with itself, even when there’s no external cause.

Yes, surely.

Sure.

And then democracy comes into being after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power; and this is the form of government in which the magistrates are commonly elected by lot.

And then democracy is established after the underprivileged defeat their adversaries, killing some and exiling others, while granting the rest an equal portion of freedom and power; this is the kind of government where officials are usually chosen by random selection.

Yes, he said, that is the nature of democracy, whether the revolution has been effected by arms, or whether fear has caused the opposite party to withdraw.

Yes, he said, that's the nature of democracy, whether the revolution happened through force, or whether fear made the opposing side pull back.

And now what is their manner of life, and what sort of a government have they? for as the government is, such will be the man.

And now, what is their way of life, and what kind of government do they have? Because the character of the government reflects the character of the people.

Clearly, he said.

He said clearly.

In the first place, are they not free; and is not the city full of freedom and frankness—a man may say and do what he likes?

In the first place, aren't they free? And isn't the city filled with freedom and openness—anyone can say and do whatever they want?

’Tis said so, he replied.

He replied, "That's what they say."

And where freedom is, the individual is clearly able to order for himself his own life as he pleases?

And where there is freedom, a person can clearly organize their life however they want.

Clearly.

Clearly.

Then in this kind of State there will be the greatest variety of human natures?

Then in this type of state, there will be the greatest diversity of human personalities?

There will.

There will be.

This, then, seems likely to be the fairest of States, being like an embroidered robe which is spangled with every sort of flower. And just as women and children think a variety of colours to be of all things most charming, so there are many men to whom this State, which is spangled with the manners and characters of mankind, will appear to be the fairest of States.

This seems to be the most beautiful of states, like a richly embroidered robe adorned with all sorts of flowers. Just as women and children find a variety of colors to be the most appealing, there are many men who will find this state, filled with the behaviors and traits of people, to be the most beautiful of all.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, my good Sir, and there will be no better in which to look for a government.

Yes, my good Sir, and there won’t be a better place to search for a government.

Why?

Why?

Because of the liberty which reigns there—they have a complete assortment of constitutions; and he who has a mind to establish a State, as we have been doing, must go to a democracy as he would to a bazaar at which they sell them, and pick out the one that suits him; then, when he has made his choice, he may found his State.

Because of the freedom that exists there, they have a full range of constitutions; anyone wanting to create a State, as we have been doing, must go to a democracy like it’s a market where you can choose one, and pick the one that fits best; then, once he has made his selection, he can establish his State.

He will be sure to have patterns enough.

He'll definitely have plenty of patterns.

And there being no necessity, I said, for you to govern in this State, even if you have the capacity, or to be governed, unless you like, or go to war when the rest go to war, or to be at peace when others are at peace, unless you are so disposed—there being no necessity also, because some law forbids you to hold office or be a dicast, that you should not hold office or be a dicast, if you have a fancy—is not this a way of life which for the moment is supremely delightful?

And since there's no need for you to run this state, even if you could, or to be controlled unless you choose to, or to go to war when everyone else does, or to be at peace when others are, only if you feel that way—there’s also no requirement because some law prevents you from holding office or being a juror, that you can’t hold office or be a juror if you want to—doesn’t this way of living feel incredibly enjoyable right now?

For the moment, yes.

For now, yes.

And is not their humanity to the condemned in some cases quite charming? Have you not observed how, in a democracy, many persons, although they have been sentenced to death or exile, just stay where they are and walk about the world—the gentleman parades like a hero, and nobody sees or cares?

And isn't their humanity towards the condemned sometimes quite appealing? Haven't you noticed how, in a democracy, many people, even though they’ve been sentenced to death or exile, just stay put and go about their lives—the gentleman walks around like a hero, and no one notices or cares?

Yes, he replied, many and many a one.

Yes, he replied, plenty of them.

See too, I said, the forgiving spirit of democracy, and the ‘don’t care’ about trifles, and the disregard which she shows of all the fine principles which we solemnly laid down at the foundation of the city—as when we said that, except in the case of some rarely gifted nature, there never will be a good man who has not from his childhood been used to play amid things of beauty and make of them a joy and a study—how grandly does she trample all these fine notions of ours under her feet, never giving a thought to the pursuits which make a statesman, and promoting to honour any one who professes to be the people’s friend.

Look too, I said, at the forgiving nature of democracy, and the indifference towards minor issues, and the way it disregards all the important principles we carefully established when we founded the city—like when we said that, except for a few exceptionally talented people, there will never be a good man who hasn’t spent his childhood surrounded by beauty, finding joy and inspiration in it—how magnificently does it stomp all our cherished beliefs into the ground, never considering the efforts that shape a true statesman, and promoting anyone who claims to be a friend of the people to positions of honor.

Yes, she is of a noble spirit.

Yes, she has a noble spirit.

These and other kindred characteristics are proper to democracy, which is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike.

These and other similar traits belong to democracy, which is an appealing type of government, filled with diversity and chaos, and offering a kind of equality to both equal and unequal individuals.

We know her well.

We know her really well.

Consider now, I said, what manner of man the individual is, or rather consider, as in the case of the State, how he comes into being.

Consider now, I said, what kind of person the individual is, or rather think about how, like the State, he comes into existence.

Very good, he said.

"Sounds great," he said.

Is not this the way—he is the son of the miserly and oligarchical father who has trained him in his own habits?

Isn't this the case—he's the son of a stingy, power-hungry father who has raised him to be just like him?

Exactly.

Exactly.

And, like his father, he keeps under by force the pleasures which are of the spending and not of the getting sort, being those which are called unnecessary?

And, like his father, he restrains the pleasures that come from spending rather than earning, which are considered unnecessary.

Obviously.

Clearly.

Would you like, for the sake of clearness, to distinguish which are the necessary and which are the unnecessary pleasures?

Would you like to clarify which pleasures are necessary and which are unnecessary?

I should.

I should.

Are not necessary pleasures those of which we cannot get rid, and of which the satisfaction is a benefit to us? And they are rightly called so, because we are framed by nature to desire both what is beneficial and what is necessary, and cannot help it.

Are not essential pleasures those that we can't escape, and whose satisfaction is beneficial to us? They are rightly labeled this way because we are shaped by nature to crave both what is advantageous and what is essential, and we can't help it.

True.

True.

We are not wrong therefore in calling them necessary?

We aren't wrong to call them necessary, are we?

We are not.

We aren't.

And the desires of which a man may get rid, if he takes pains from his youth upwards—of which the presence, moreover, does no good, and in some cases the reverse of good—shall we not be right in saying that all these are unnecessary?

And the desires that a person can overcome if they work hard from a young age—desires that bring no benefit and in some cases do harm—can we not say that all of these are unnecessary?

Yes, certainly.

Absolutely.

Suppose we select an example of either kind, in order that we may have a general notion of them?

Suppose we choose an example of either type so that we can get a general idea of them?

Very good.

Great.

Will not the desire of eating, that is, of simple food and condiments, in so far as they are required for health and strength, be of the necessary class?

Will the desire for food, like basic meals and seasonings, which are needed for health and strength, not be considered essential?

That is what I should suppose.

That's what I would think.

The pleasure of eating is necessary in two ways; it does us good and it is essential to the continuance of life?

The joy of eating is important for two reasons: it benefits us and it's vital for sustaining life.

Yes.

Yes.

But the condiments are only necessary in so far as they are good for health?

But are the condiments really needed only if they're good for your health?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And the desire which goes beyond this, of more delicate food, or other luxuries, which might generally be got rid of, if controlled and trained in youth, and is hurtful to the body, and hurtful to the soul in the pursuit of wisdom and virtue, may be rightly called unnecessary?

And the desire for more refined food or other luxuries, which could usually be eliminated if managed and guided during youth, and is harmful to the body and detrimental to the soul in the quest for wisdom and virtue, can rightly be considered unnecessary?

Very true.

So true.

May we not say that these desires spend, and that the others make money because they conduce to production?

Can we say that these desires are a waste, while the others generate wealth because they lead to production?

Certainly.

Of course.

And of the pleasures of love, and all other pleasures, the same holds good?

And does the same apply to the joys of love and all other pleasures?

True.

True.

And the drone of whom we spoke was he who was surfeited in pleasures and desires of this sort, and was the slave of the unnecessary desires, whereas he who was subject to the necessary only was miserly and oligarchical?

And the person we talked about was the one who was overwhelmed by pleasures and desires like this, being a slave to unnecessary cravings, while the one who was only driven by the essentials was stingy and oligarchic?

Very true.

So true.

Again, let us see how the democratical man grows out of the oligarchical: the following, as I suspect, is commonly the process.

Again, let's look at how the democratic person emerges from the oligarchical: the following, I believe, is usually the process.

What is the process?

What's the process?

When a young man who has been brought up as we were just now describing, in a vulgar and miserly way, has tasted drones’ honey and has come to associate with fierce and crafty natures who are able to provide for him all sorts of refinements and varieties of pleasure—then, as you may imagine, the change will begin of the oligarchical principle within him into the democratical?

When a young man raised in a cheap and stingy environment experiences a taste of luxury and starts to hang out with fierce and cunning people who can offer him all kinds of pleasures and indulgences—then, as you can imagine, he will start to shift from an oligarchical mindset to a democratic one.

Inevitably.

Inevitably.

And as in the city like was helping like, and the change was effected by an alliance from without assisting one division of the citizens, so too the young man is changed by a class of desires coming from without to assist the desires within him, that which is akin and alike again helping that which is akin and alike?

And just as in the city, one group was helping another, and the change happened through outside support for one part of the citizens, the young man is also changed by external desires that help his inner desires, with similar and related things again assisting those that are similar and related.

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And if there be any ally which aids the oligarchical principle within him, whether the influence of a father or of kindred, advising or rebuking him, then there arises in his soul a faction and an opposite faction, and he goes to war with himself.

And if there’s any support that encourages his oligarchical side, whether it’s from a father or relatives giving advice or criticism, then a conflict arises in his mind, and he begins to struggle with himself.

It must be so.

It has to be.

And there are times when the democratical principle gives way to the oligarchical, and some of his desires die, and others are banished; a spirit of reverence enters into the young man’s soul and order is restored.

And there are times when the democratic principle gives way to the oligarchical, and some of his desires fade away, while others are pushed aside; a sense of reverence fills the young man's soul and order is restored.

Yes, he said, that sometimes happens.

Yes, he said, that can happen sometimes.

And then, again, after the old desires have been driven out, fresh ones spring up, which are akin to them, and because he their father does not know how to educate them, wax fierce and numerous.

And then, once the old desires have been pushed aside, new ones emerge that are similar to them, and because their father doesn’t know how to guide them, they become intense and grow in number.

Yes, he said, that is apt to be the way.

Yes, he said, that’s likely how it is.

They draw him to his old associates, and holding secret intercourse with them, breed and multiply in him.

They pull him back to his old friends, and by secretly communicating with them, they grow and increase within him.

Very true.

So true.

At length they seize upon the citadel of the young man’s soul, which they perceive to be void of all accomplishments and fair pursuits and true words, which make their abode in the minds of men who are dear to the gods, and are their best guardians and sentinels.

At last, they take control of the young man's soul, which they see as empty of all achievements, noble pursuits, and genuine words—qualities that reside in the minds of those who are favored by the gods and serve as their finest protectors and watchmen.

None better.

None better.

False and boastful conceits and phrases mount upwards and take their place.

False and braggy thoughts and phrases rise up and make their mark.

They are certain to do so.

They'll definitely do that.

And so the young man returns into the country of the lotus-eaters, and takes up his dwelling there in the face of all men; and if any help be sent by his friends to the oligarchical part of him, the aforesaid vain conceits shut the gate of the king’s fastness; and they will neither allow the embassy itself to enter, nor if private advisers offer the fatherly counsel of the aged will they listen to them or receive them. There is a battle and they gain the day, and then modesty, which they call silliness, is ignominiously thrust into exile by them, and temperance, which they nickname unmanliness, is trampled in the mire and cast forth; they persuade men that moderation and orderly expenditure are vulgarity and meanness, and so, by the help of a rabble of evil appetites, they drive them beyond the border.

And so the young man returns to the land of the lotus-eaters and makes his home there in front of everyone; if any help comes from his friends to the more rational part of him, those empty desires block the entrance to the king's stronghold. They won’t let the ambassadors in, nor will they listen to or accept the wise advice from older, private counselors. There’s a conflict, and they come out on top, then they unfairly banish modesty, which they call foolishness, and trample temperance, which they label as weakness, into the dirt and throw it away. They convince people that moderation and responsible spending are just signs of being low-class or cheap, and thus, with the help of a crowd of bad cravings, they push them out of the borders.

Yes, with a will.

Yes, with determination.

And when they have emptied and swept clean the soul of him who is now in their power and who is being initiated by them in great mysteries, the next thing is to bring back to their house insolence and anarchy and waste and impudence in bright array having garlands on their heads, and a great company with them, hymning their praises and calling them by sweet names; insolence they term breeding, and anarchy liberty, and waste magnificence, and impudence courage. And so the young man passes out of his original nature, which was trained in the school of necessity, into the freedom and libertinism of useless and unnecessary pleasures.

And when they have emptied and cleaned out the soul of the person they now control and who is being initiated into great mysteries, the next step is to bring back to their home arrogance and chaos, extravagance and shamelessness, all decked out with garlands on their heads, along with a large group celebrating them and calling them nice names; arrogance they call breeding, chaos freedom, extravagance magnificence, and shamelessness courage. Thus, the young man moves away from his original nature, which was shaped by the school of necessity, into the freedom and indulgence of pointless and unnecessary pleasures.

Yes, he said, the change in him is visible enough.

Yes, he said, the change in him is clear enough.

After this he lives on, spending his money and labour and time on unnecessary pleasures quite as much as on necessary ones; but if he be fortunate, and is not too much disordered in his wits, when years have elapsed, and the heyday of passion is over—supposing that he then re-admits into the city some part of the exiled virtues, and does not wholly give himself up to their successors—in that case he balances his pleasures and lives in a sort of equilibrium, putting the government of himself into the hands of the one which comes first and wins the turn; and when he has had enough of that, then into the hands of another; he despises none of them but encourages them all equally.

After this, he carries on, spending his money, effort, and time on unnecessary pleasures just as much as on the essential ones; but if he’s lucky, and his mind isn’t too troubled, after a few years have gone by and the height of his passion has faded—assuming he eventually welcomes back some of the lost virtues into his life and doesn’t completely surrender to their substitutes—in that case, he balances his pleasures and lives in a sort of equilibrium, giving control of himself to whichever pleasure appears first and wins his attention; and when he’s had enough of that, he hands control over to another. He doesn’t look down on any of them but supports them all equally.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Neither does he receive or let pass into the fortress any true word of advice; if any one says to him that some pleasures are the satisfactions of good and noble desires, and others of evil desires, and that he ought to use and honour some and chastise and master the others—whenever this is repeated to him he shakes his head and says that they are all alike, and that one is as good as another.

Neither does he accept or allow any true advice into the fortress; if someone tells him that some pleasures come from good and noble desires, while others come from evil desires, and that he should embrace and respect some while disciplining and controlling the others—whenever this is mentioned to him, he shakes his head and says they are all the same, and that one is just as good as another.

Yes, he said; that is the way with him.

Yes, he said; that's how he is.

Yes, I said, he lives from day to day indulging the appetite of the hour; and sometimes he is lapped in drink and strains of the flute; then he becomes a water-drinker, and tries to get thin; then he takes a turn at gymnastics; sometimes idling and neglecting everything, then once more living the life of a philosopher; often he is busy with politics, and starts to his feet and says and does whatever comes into his head; and, if he is emulous of any one who is a warrior, off he is in that direction, or of men of business, once more in that. His life has neither law nor order; and this distracted existence he terms joy and bliss and freedom; and so he goes on.

Yes, I said, he lives from day to day, indulging whatever he feels like at the moment; sometimes he’s wrapped up in drink and the sounds of music; then he switches to being a teetotaler, trying to slim down; then he gets into working out; sometimes he just lounges around and ignores everything, but then he’s back to living like a philosopher; often he gets involved in politics, jumping up to say and do whatever pops into his mind; and if he’s inspired by someone who’s a warrior, he goes off that way, or if it’s business people, he goes that way again. His life has no rules or structure; and he calls this chaotic way of living joy, happiness, and freedom; and so he carries on.

Yes, he replied, he is all liberty and equality.

Yes, he replied, he is all about freedom and equality.

Yes, I said; his life is motley and manifold and an epitome of the lives of many;—he answers to the State which we described as fair and spangled. And many a man and many a woman will take him for their pattern, and many a constitution and many an example of manners is contained in him.

Yes, I said; his life is diverse and complex and represents the lives of many;—he fits the description of the State that we called fair and adorned. And many men and many women will look to him as their model, and he contains many examples of character and behavior.

Just so.

Exactly.

Let him then be set over against democracy; he may truly be called the democratic man.

Let him be compared to democracy; he can truly be called the democratic man.

Let that be his place, he said.

Let that be his spot, he said.

Last of all comes the most beautiful of all, man and State alike, tyranny and the tyrant; these we have now to consider.

Last of all comes the most beautiful of all: man and the state, tyranny and the tyrant; these are what we need to consider now.

Quite true, he said.

So true, he said.

Say then, my friend, In what manner does tyranny arise?—that it has a democratic origin is evident.

Say then, my friend, how does tyranny come about? It’s clear that it has a democratic origin.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And does not tyranny spring from democracy in the same manner as democracy from oligarchy—I mean, after a sort?

And doesn't tyranny arise from democracy in the same way that democracy comes from oligarchy—if you think about it?

How?

How?

The good which oligarchy proposed to itself and the means by which it was maintained was excess of wealth—am I not right?

The good that oligarchy aimed for and the means by which it persisted was an abundance of wealth—am I not correct?

Yes.

Yes.

And the insatiable desire of wealth and the neglect of all other things for the sake of money-getting was also the ruin of oligarchy?

And the endless craving for wealth and the disregard for everything else in pursuit of making money was also the downfall of oligarchy?

True.

True.

And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution?

And democracy has its own benefits, but the endless craving for more leads to its downfall?

What good?

What's the benefit?

Freedom, I replied; which, as they tell you in a democracy, is the glory of the State—and that therefore in a democracy alone will the freeman of nature deign to dwell.

Freedom, I replied; which, as they tell you in a democracy, is the pride of the State—and that therefore in a democracy alone will the free person of nature choose to live.

Yes; the saying is in every body’s mouth.

Yes; that saying is on everyone's lips.

I was going to observe, that the insatiable desire of this and the neglect of other things introduces the change in democracy, which occasions a demand for tyranny.

I was going to point out that the unquenchable desire for this and the disregard for other matters brings about a change in democracy, which leads to a craving for tyranny.

How so?

How is that possible?

When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cup-bearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs.

When a democracy that's craving freedom has corrupt leaders running the show and has indulged too much in the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very generous and provide a good amount, she holds them accountable and punishes them, declaring that they are cursed oligarchs.

Yes, he replied, a very common occurrence.

Yes, he replied, a very common thing.

Yes, I said; and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers, and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any limit?

Yes, I said; and loyal citizens are insultingly called by her slaves who cling to their chains and worthless men; she wants subjects who act like rulers, and rulers who act like subjects: these are the people she admires and respects both in private and in public. Now, in such a State, can liberty have any limits?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

By degrees the anarchy finds a way into private houses, and ends by getting among the animals and infecting them.

Gradually, the chaos creeps into people's homes and eventually affects the animals, spreading its influence.

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean that the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this is his freedom, and the metic is equal with the citizen and the citizen with the metic, and the stranger is quite as good as either.

I mean that the father starts to lower himself to the level of his sons and begin to fear them, while the son is on equal footing with his father, having no respect or reverence for either of his parents; and this is his freedom. The metic stands equal to the citizen, and the citizen stands equal to the metic, while the stranger is just as good as either.

Yes, he said, that is the way.

Yes, he said, that’s the way.

And these are not the only evils, I said—there are several lesser ones: In such a state of society the master fears and flatters his scholars, and the scholars despise their masters and tutors; young and old are all alike; and the young man is on a level with the old, and is ready to compete with him in word or deed; and old men condescend to the young and are full of pleasantry and gaiety; they are loth to be thought morose and authoritative, and therefore they adopt the manners of the young.

And these aren't the only problems, I said—there are several smaller ones: In such a society, the master fears and flatters his students, and the students look down on their masters and teachers; young and old are treated the same; the young man thinks he is equal to the old and is eager to compete with him in conversation or action; and older men lower themselves to the young and are full of joking and fun; they are reluctant to be seen as grumpy and controlling, so they take on the attitudes of the young.

Quite true, he said.

So true, he said.

The last extreme of popular liberty is when the slave bought with money, whether male or female, is just as free as his or her purchaser; nor must I forget to tell of the liberty and equality of the two sexes in relation to each other.

The ultimate form of popular freedom is when a slave, bought with money—whether male or female—is just as free as the person who purchased them; and I must also mention the freedom and equality of both sexes in relation to one another.

Why not, as Aeschylus says, utter the word which rises to our lips?

Why not, as Aeschylus says, say what comes to mind?

That is what I am doing, I replied; and I must add that no one who does not know would believe, how much greater is the liberty which the animals who are under the dominion of man have in a democracy than in any other State: for truly, the she-dogs, as the proverb says, are as good as their she-mistresses, and the horses and asses have a way of marching along with all the rights and dignities of freemen; and they will run at any body who comes in their way if he does not leave the road clear for them: and all things are just ready to burst with liberty.

That’s exactly what I’m doing, I replied; and I have to say that no one who doesn’t know would believe how much more freedom the animals under human control have in a democracy compared to any other society: because, as the saying goes, the female dogs are as good as their female owners, and the horses and donkeys act like they have all the rights and respect of free citizens; they’ll charge at anyone who gets in their way if they don’t keep the path clear for them: and everything is on the verge of overflowing with freedom.

When I take a country walk, he said, I often experience what you describe. You and I have dreamed the same thing.

When I go for a walk in the countryside, he said, I often feel what you’re talking about. You and I have shared the same dream.

And above all, I said, and as the result of all, see how sensitive the citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of authority, and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for the laws, written or unwritten; they will have no one over them.

And above all, I said, as a result of everything, look at how sensitive the citizens become; they get irritated at the slightest hint of authority, and eventually, as you know, they stop caring about the laws, whether written or unwritten; they want no one in charge of them.

Yes, he said, I know it too well.

Yes, he said, I know it all too well.

Such, my friend, I said, is the fair and glorious beginning out of which springs tyranny.

That, my friend, I said, is the beautiful and glorious start from which tyranny arises.

Glorious indeed, he said. But what is the next step?

Glorious, indeed, he said. But what's the next step?

The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease magnified and intensified by liberty overmasters democracy—the truth being that the excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite direction; and this is the case not only in the seasons and in vegetable and animal life, but above all in forms of government.

The collapse of oligarchy leads to the collapse of democracy; the same issue, amplified and intensified by freedom, overwhelms democracy— the reality is that too much of anything often triggers a backlash; this is true not just in the seasons and in plant and animal life, but especially in systems of government.

True.

True.

The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass into excess of slavery.

The excess of freedom, whether in states or individuals, seems to only lead to an excess of oppression.

Yes, the natural order.

Yes, the natural order.

And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?

And so tyranny naturally comes out of democracy, and the worst kind of tyranny and oppression comes out of the most extreme form of freedom?

As we might expect.

As we could expect.

That, however, was not, as I believe, your question—you rather desired to know what is that disorder which is generated alike in oligarchy and democracy, and is the ruin of both?

That, however, wasn’t, I believe, your question—you actually wanted to know what that disorder is that arises in both oligarchy and democracy, and ultimately leads to the downfall of both?

Just so, he replied.

Exactly, he replied.

Well, I said, I meant to refer to the class of idle spendthrifts, of whom the more courageous are the leaders and the more timid the followers, the same whom we were comparing to drones, some stingless, and others having stings.

Well, I said, I meant to refer to the group of lazy spenders, where the bolder ones take the lead and the more cautious follow, the same ones we were comparing to drones, some without stingers, and others with stingers.

A very just comparison.

A fair comparison.

These two classes are the plagues of every city in which they are generated, being what phlegm and bile are to the body. And the good physician and lawgiver of the State ought, like the wise bee-master, to keep them at a distance and prevent, if possible, their ever coming in; and if they have anyhow found a way in, then he should have them and their cells cut out as speedily as possible.

These two groups are the problems in every city where they emerge, similar to how phlegm and bile affect the body. The wise leader and lawmaker of the State should, like a smart beekeeper, keep them away and prevent them from coming in if possible; and if they somehow manage to get in, he should remove them and their nests as quickly as he can.

Yes, by all means, he said.

Sure, he said.

Then, in order that we may see clearly what we are doing, let us imagine democracy to be divided, as indeed it is, into three classes; for in the first place freedom creates rather more drones in the democratic than there were in the oligarchical State.

Then, so we can see clearly what we're doing, let's imagine democracy divided, as it actually is, into three classes; for, first of all, freedom tends to create more free riders in a democratic society than there were in an oligarchy.

That is true.

That's true.

And in the democracy they are certainly more intensified.

And in a democracy, they are definitely more intense.

How so?

How's that?

Because in the oligarchical State they are disqualified and driven from office, and therefore they cannot train or gather strength; whereas in a democracy they are almost the entire ruling power, and while the keener sort speak and act, the rest keep buzzing about the bema and do not suffer a word to be said on the other side; hence in democracies almost everything is managed by the drones.

Because in an oligarchic state they are removed from power and unable to gain support, while in a democracy they hold almost all the power. In democracies, the more assertive individuals speak and act, while the rest busy themselves around the platform and don’t allow any opposing views to be heard; as a result, in democracies, most things are run by the bystanders.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Then there is another class which is always being severed from the mass.

Then there's another group that is constantly being separated from the crowd.

What is that?

What's that?

They are the orderly class, which in a nation of traders is sure to be the richest.

They are the organized group, which in a trading nation is guaranteed to be the wealthiest.

Naturally so.

Of course.

They are the most squeezable persons and yield the largest amount of honey to the drones.

They are the easiest to influence and provide the most benefits to the others.

Why, he said, there is little to be squeezed out of people who have little.

Why, he said, there’s not much to get from people who don’t have much.

And this is called the wealthy class, and the drones feed upon them.

And this is called the wealthy class, and the freeloaders take advantage of them.

That is pretty much the case, he said.

That’s basically the situation, he said.

The people are a third class, consisting of those who work with their own hands; they are not politicians, and have not much to live upon. This, when assembled, is the largest and most powerful class in a democracy.

The people are a lower class, made up of those who work with their hands; they aren't politicians and don’t have much to live on. When they come together, they form the largest and most influential group in a democracy.

True, he said; but then the multitude is seldom willing to congregate unless they get a little honey.

True, he said; but then the crowd is rarely willing to gather unless they get a little reward.

And do they not share? I said. Do not their leaders deprive the rich of their estates and distribute them among the people; at the same time taking care to reserve the larger part for themselves?

And don't they share? I said. Don't their leaders take the estates from the rich and distribute them among the people, while making sure to keep the bigger share for themselves?

Why, yes, he said, to that extent the people do share.

Sure, he said, to that extent, people do share.

And the persons whose property is taken from them are compelled to defend themselves before the people as they best can?

And the people whose property is taken from them have to defend themselves in front of everyone as best as they can?

What else can they do?

What else can they do?

And then, although they may have no desire of change, the others charge them with plotting against the people and being friends of oligarchy?

And even though they might not want any changes, the others accuse them of scheming against the people and being supporters of the oligarchy?

True.

True.

And the end is that when they see the people, not of their own accord, but through ignorance, and because they are deceived by informers, seeking to do them wrong, then at last they are forced to become oligarchs in reality; they do not wish to be, but the sting of the drones torments them and breeds revolution in them.

And the bottom line is that when they see people, not because they want to, but out of ignorance and because they are misled by informants aiming to harm them, they are ultimately pushed to become real oligarchs; they don’t want to be, but the pain from the drones troubles them and stirs up rebellion within them.

That is exactly the truth.

That's the plain truth.

Then come impeachments and judgments and trials of one another.

Then come impeachments, judgments, and trials against each other.

True.

True.

The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness.

The people always have a champion they elevate and nurture into greatness.

Yes, that is their way.

Yeah, that's how they are.

This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears above ground he is a protector.

This, and nothing else, is the source from which a tyrant emerges; when he first comes to light, he presents himself as a protector.

Yes, that is quite clear.

Yep, that's pretty clear.

How then does a protector begin to change into a tyrant? Clearly when he does what the man is said to do in the tale of the Arcadian temple of Lycaean Zeus.

How does a protector start to become a tyrant? Obviously, when he acts like the man in the story of the Arcadian temple of Lycaean Zeus.

What tale?

What story?

The tale is that he who has tasted the entrails of a single human victim minced up with the entrails of other victims is destined to become a wolf. Did you never hear it?

The story goes that anyone who has eaten the innards of a single human victim mixed with the innards of other victims is doomed to turn into a wolf. Haven't you ever heard that?

Oh, yes.

Oh, totally.

And the protector of the people is like him; having a mob entirely at his disposal, he is not restrained from shedding the blood of kinsmen; by the favourite method of false accusation he brings them into court and murders them, making the life of man to disappear, and with unholy tongue and lips tasting the blood of his fellow citizens; some he kills and others he banishes, at the same time hinting at the abolition of debts and partition of lands: and after this, what will be his destiny? Must he not either perish at the hands of his enemies, or from being a man become a wolf—that is, a tyrant?

And the protector of the people is just like him; with a crowd completely under his control, he isn't stopped from spilling the blood of his own relatives. Through his favorite tactic of false accusations, he drags them into court and kills them, making human lives vanish, and with uncaring words and actions, he savors the blood of his fellow citizens. Some he murders and others he exiles, while subtly suggesting the cancellation of debts and redistribution of land. After all this, what will happen to him? Isn’t he bound to either be destroyed by his enemies or transform from a man into a wolf—that is, a tyrant?

Inevitably.

Inevitably.

This, I said, is he who begins to make a party against the rich?

This, I said, is the one who starts to create a group against the wealthy?

The same.

Same.

After a while he is driven out, but comes back, in spite of his enemies, a tyrant full grown.

After a while, he's pushed out, but he returns, despite his enemies, as a fully grown tyrant.

That is clear.

That's clear.

And if they are unable to expel him, or to get him condemned to death by a public accusation, they conspire to assassinate him.

And if they can't get rid of him or have him sentenced to death through a public accusation, they plot to kill him.

Yes, he said, that is their usual way.

Yes, he said, that's how they usually are.

Then comes the famous request for a body-guard, which is the device of all those who have got thus far in their tyrannical career—‘Let not the people’s friend,’ as they say, ‘be lost to them.’

Then comes the well-known request for a bodyguard, which is the tactic used by all those who have advanced this far in their tyrannical journey—‘Let not the people’s friend,’ as they say, ‘be lost to them.’

Exactly.

Exactly.

The people readily assent; all their fears are for him—they have none for themselves.

The people quickly agree; all their worries are for him—they have none for themselves.

Very true.

Very true.

And when a man who is wealthy and is also accused of being an enemy of the people sees this, then, my friend, as the oracle said to Croesus,

And when a wealthy man who is also accused of being an enemy of the people sees this, then, my friend, as the oracle told Croesus,

‘By pebbly Hermus’ shore he flees and rests not, and is not ashamed to be a coward.’

‘By the pebbly shore of the Hermus, he runs away and doesn’t stop, and is not ashamed to be a coward.’

And quite right too, said he, for if he were, he would never be ashamed again.

And that's absolutely true, he said, because if he were, he would never feel ashamed again.

But if he is caught he dies.

But if he gets caught, he dies.

Of course.

Sure.

And he, the protector of whom we spoke, is to be seen, not ‘larding the plain’ with his bulk, but himself the overthrower of many, standing up in the chariot of State with the reins in his hand, no longer protector, but tyrant absolute.

And he, the protector we mentioned, is not just taking up space, but is instead the conqueror of many, standing in the driver's seat of the government with the reins in his hands, no longer a protector, but a complete tyrant.

No doubt, he said.

For sure, he said.

And now let us consider the happiness of the man, and also of the State in which a creature like him is generated.

And now let's think about the happiness of the man, and also of the State where a being like him is produced.

Yes, he said, let us consider that.

Yes, he said, let's think about that.

At first, in the early days of his power, he is full of smiles, and he salutes every one whom he meets;—he to be called a tyrant, who is making promises in public and also in private! liberating debtors, and distributing land to the people and his followers, and wanting to be so kind and good to every one!

At first, in the early days of his power, he is full of smiles and greets everyone he meets;—he is being called a tyrant while making promises both in public and private! He’s freeing debtors, distributing land to the people and his supporters, and trying to be kind and good to everyone!

Of course, he said.

Sure, he said.

But when he has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.

But when he has dealt with foreign enemies through conquest or treaty and there’s nothing to fear from them, he’s always provoking some war or another so that the people will need a leader.

To be sure.

For sure.

Has he not also another object, which is that they may be impoverished by payment of taxes, and thus compelled to devote themselves to their daily wants and therefore less likely to conspire against him?

Has he not also another goal, which is that they may be drained by paying taxes, and thus forced to focus on their everyday needs and therefore less likely to plot against him?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And if any of them are suspected by him of having notions of freedom, and of resistance to his authority, he will have a good pretext for destroying them by placing them at the mercy of the enemy; and for all these reasons the tyrant must be always getting up a war.

And if any of them seem to him to have ideas about freedom and resisting his authority, he will have a solid reason to eliminate them by putting them in danger from the enemy; and for all these reasons, the tyrant must always be stirring up a war.

He must.

He has to.

Now he begins to grow unpopular.

Now he starts to become unpopular.

A necessary result.

An essential outcome.

Then some of those who joined in setting him up, and who are in power, speak their minds to him and to one another, and the more courageous of them cast in his teeth what is being done.

Then some of those who were involved in framing him, and who are in power, express their thoughts to him and each other, and the bolder among them confront him with what’s happening.

Yes, that may be expected.

Yeah, that might be expected.

And the tyrant, if he means to rule, must get rid of them; he cannot stop while he has a friend or an enemy who is good for anything.

And the tyrant, if he wants to stay in power, must eliminate them; he can't allow himself to have a friend or enemy who's capable of anything worthwhile.

He cannot.

He can't.

And therefore he must look about him and see who is valiant, who is high-minded, who is wise, who is wealthy; happy man, he is the enemy of them all, and must seek occasion against them whether he will or no, until he has made a purgation of the State.

And so he has to take a look around and see who is brave, who has high ideals, who is smart, who is wealthy; a fortunate man, he is the foe of them all, and has to find reasons to oppose them whether he wants to or not, until he has cleansed the State.

Yes, he said, and a rare purgation.

Yes, he said, and a rare cleansing.

Yes, I said, not the sort of purgation which the physicians make of the body; for they take away the worse and leave the better part, but he does the reverse.

Yes, I said, not the kind of cleansing that doctors do to the body; because they remove the worst and leave the better part, but he does the opposite.

If he is to rule, I suppose that he cannot help himself.

If he’s going to rule, I guess he can’t help it.

What a blessed alternative, I said:—to be compelled to dwell only with the many bad, and to be by them hated, or not to live at all!

What a fortunate choice, I said:—to be forced to live only among the many bad, and to be hated by them, or not to live at all!

Yes, that is the alternative.

Yes, that’s the alternative.

And the more detestable his actions are to the citizens the more satellites and the greater devotion in them will he require?

And the more hated his actions are by the citizens, the more followers and greater loyalty he will need from them?

Certainly.

Sure.

And who are the devoted band, and where will he procure them?

And who are the loyal group, and where will he find them?

They will flock to him, he said, of their own accord, if he pays them.

They'll come to him, he said, on their own if he pays them.

By the dog! I said, here are more drones, of every sort and from every land.

By the dog! I said, here are more drones, of every type and from every place.

Yes, he said, there are.

Yes, he said, there are.

But will he not desire to get them on the spot?

But doesn't he want to get them right away?

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

He will rob the citizens of their slaves; he will then set them free and enrol them in his body-guard.

He will take the citizens' slaves, then free them and recruit them into his bodyguard.

To be sure, he said; and he will be able to trust them best of all.

To be sure, he said; and he will be able to trust them more than anyone else.

What a blessed creature, I said, must this tyrant be; he has put to death the others and has these for his trusted friends.

What a lucky creature this tyrant must be; he has killed the others and keeps these as his trusted friends.

Yes, he said; they are quite of his sort.

Yes, he said; they are definitely his kind.

Yes, I said, and these are the new citizens whom he has called into existence, who admire him and are his companions, while the good hate and avoid him.

Yes, I said, and these are the new citizens he has created, who admire him and are his friends, while the good ones hate and steer clear of him.

Of course.

Sure thing.

Verily, then, tragedy is a wise thing and Euripides a great tragedian.

Truly, then, tragedy is a profound art form, and Euripides is a remarkable playwright.

Why so?

Why's that?

Why, because he is the author of the pregnant saying,

Why, because he is the author of the insightful saying,

‘Tyrants are wise by living with the wise;’

'Tyrants are smart by surrounding themselves with smart people;'

and he clearly meant to say that they are the wise whom the tyrant makes his companions.

and he clearly meant to say that they are the wise ones whom the tyrant chooses as his companions.

Yes, he said, and he also praises tyranny as godlike; and many other things of the same kind are said by him and by the other poets.

Yes, he said, and he also praises tyranny as divine; and many other things like that are said by him and by the other poets.

And therefore, I said, the tragic poets being wise men will forgive us and any others who live after our manner if we do not receive them into our State, because they are the eulogists of tyranny.

And so, I said, the tragic poets, being wise individuals, will forgive us and anyone else who lives like us if we do not welcome them into our State, because they are the supporters of tyranny.

Yes, he said, those who have the wit will doubtless forgive us.

Yes, he said, those who are clever will surely forgive us.

But they will continue to go to other cities and attract mobs, and hire voices fair and loud and persuasive, and draw the cities over to tyrannies and democracies.

But they will keep going to other cities and gathering crowds, hiring captivating and loud speakers, and swaying the cities towards tyranny and democracy.

Very true.

So true.

Moreover, they are paid for this and receive honour—the greatest honour, as might be expected, from tyrants, and the next greatest from democracies; but the higher they ascend our constitution hill, the more their reputation fails, and seems unable from shortness of breath to proceed further.

Moreover, they get paid for this and receive recognition—the highest recognition, as you might expect, from tyrants, and the next highest from democracies; but the higher they climb our constitutional hill, the more their reputation declines, as if they can't catch their breath to go any further.

True.

True.

But we are wandering from the subject: Let us therefore return and enquire how the tyrant will maintain that fair and numerous and various and ever-changing army of his.

But we are straying from the topic: Let's get back to it and ask how the tyrant will keep that beautiful, large, diverse, and constantly changing army of his.

If, he said, there are sacred treasures in the city, he will confiscate and spend them; and in so far as the fortunes of attainted persons may suffice, he will be able to diminish the taxes which he would otherwise have to impose upon the people.

If, he said, there are sacred treasures in the city, he will seize and use them; and as long as the wealth of those who have been stripped of their honors is enough, he will be able to reduce the taxes he would otherwise need to impose on the people.

And when these fail?

And what if these fail?

Why, clearly, he said, then he and his boon companions, whether male or female, will be maintained out of his father’s estate.

Why, clearly, he said, he and his close friends, whether guys or girls, will be supported by his father's estate.

You mean to say that the people, from whom he has derived his being, will maintain him and his companions?

Are you saying that the people who gave him life will support him and his friends?

Yes, he said; they cannot help themselves.

Yes, he said; they can't help themselves.

But what if the people fly into a passion, and aver that a grown-up son ought not to be supported by his father, but that the father should be supported by the son? The father did not bring him into being, or settle him in life, in order that when his son became a man he should himself be the servant of his own servants and should support him and his rabble of slaves and companions; but that his son should protect him, and that by his help he might be emancipated from the government of the rich and aristocratic, as they are termed. And so he bids him and his companions depart, just as any other father might drive out of the house a riotous son and his undesirable associates.

But what if people get worked up and insist that a grown son shouldn't rely on his father, but that the father should be supported by the son? The father didn't bring him into the world or set him up in life so that when his son grew up, he would end up being a servant to his own servants and provide for him and his crowd of friends and followers; rather, the father expected his son to take care of him, helping him break free from the control of the wealthy and elite. So, he tells his son and his friends to leave, just like any other father would kick out a rowdy son and his unwanted pals.

By heaven, he said, then the parent will discover what a monster he has been fostering in his bosom; and, when he wants to drive him out, he will find that he is weak and his son strong.

By heaven, he said, then the parent will realize what a monster he has been nurturing in his heart; and when he tries to get rid of him, he'll find that he is weak and his son is strong.

Why, you do not mean to say that the tyrant will use violence? What! beat his father if he opposes him?

Why, you can't be serious that the tyrant will resort to violence? What! Hit his father if he goes against him?

Yes, he will, having first disarmed him.

Yes, he will, after he disarms him first.

Then he is a parricide, and a cruel guardian of an aged parent; and this is real tyranny, about which there can be no longer a mistake: as the saying is, the people who would escape the smoke which is the slavery of freemen, has fallen into the fire which is the tyranny of slaves. Thus liberty, getting out of all order and reason, passes into the harshest and bitterest form of slavery.

Then he is a killer of his own parent and a cruel caretaker of an elderly family member; and this is true tyranny, about which there can be no mistake: as the saying goes, those who try to escape the smoke that represents the slavery of free people have fallen into the fire of slave tyranny. Thus, liberty, losing all sense of order and reason, turns into the harshest and most bitter form of slavery.

True, he said.

True, he said.

Very well; and may we not rightly say that we have sufficiently discussed the nature of tyranny, and the manner of the transition from democracy to tyranny?

Very well; and can we not rightly say that we have thoroughly talked about the nature of tyranny and how the shift from democracy to tyranny happens?

Yes, quite enough, he said.

Yes, that’s plenty, he said.

BOOK IX.

Last of all comes the tyrannical man; about whom we have once more to ask, how is he formed out of the democratical? and how does he live, in happiness or in misery?

Last of all comes the tyrannical man; about whom we need to ask again, how is he shaped from the democratic? And how does he live, in happiness or in misery?

Yes, he said, he is the only one remaining.

Yes, he said, he is the only one left.

There is, however, I said, a previous question which remains unanswered.

There is, however, I said, a previous question that remains unanswered.

What question?

What question?

I do not think that we have adequately determined the nature and number of the appetites, and until this is accomplished the enquiry will always be confused.

I don't think we've clearly identified the nature and number of our desires, and until we do this, the investigation will always be unclear.

Well, he said, it is not too late to supply the omission.

Well, he said, it's not too late to fix the omission.

Very true, I said; and observe the point which I want to understand: Certain of the unnecessary pleasures and appetites I conceive to be unlawful; every one appears to have them, but in some persons they are controlled by the laws and by reason, and the better desires prevail over them—either they are wholly banished or they become few and weak; while in the case of others they are stronger, and there are more of them.

Very true, I said; and notice the point I want to understand: Some unnecessary pleasures and desires seem to me to be wrong; everybody seems to have them, but in some people, they are kept in check by laws and reason, and their better instincts win out—either they are completely eliminated or they become few and weak; while in others, these desires are stronger, and there are more of them.

Which appetites do you mean?

Which cravings are you referring to?

I mean those which are awake when the reasoning and human and ruling power is asleep; then the wild beast within us, gorged with meat or drink, starts up and having shaken off sleep, goes forth to satisfy his desires; and there is no conceivable folly or crime—not excepting incest or any other unnatural union, or parricide, or the eating of forbidden food—which at such a time, when he has parted company with all shame and sense, a man may not be ready to commit.

I’m talking about those times when logic and our better judgment are out of action; that’s when the wild beast inside us, stuffed with food or drink, awakens and, shaking off its slumber, rushes out to fulfill its cravings. In those moments, without any sense of shame or reason, a person may be willing to commit any kind of foolishness or crime—even incest, other unnatural acts, killing one’s parent, or consuming forbidden food.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

But when a man’s pulse is healthy and temperate, and when before going to sleep he has awakened his rational powers, and fed them on noble thoughts and enquiries, collecting himself in meditation; after having first indulged his appetites neither too much nor too little, but just enough to lay them to sleep, and prevent them and their enjoyments and pains from interfering with the higher principle—which he leaves in the solitude of pure abstraction, free to contemplate and aspire to the knowledge of the unknown, whether in past, present, or future: when again he has allayed the passionate element, if he has a quarrel against any one—I say, when, after pacifying the two irrational principles, he rouses up the third, which is reason, before he takes his rest, then, as you know, he attains truth most nearly, and is least likely to be the sport of fantastic and lawless visions.

But when a person’s pulse is strong and steady, and before going to sleep they have activated their thinking skills and nourished them with uplifting thoughts and questions, taking time for deep reflection; after having satisfied their desires just enough to calm them down and prevent those desires and their pleasures and pains from interrupting the higher part of themselves—which they leave in a place of pure focus, free to think about and seek out knowledge of the unknown, whether from the past, present, or future: when they have also calmed their emotional side, if they have a conflict with anyone—I mean, when, after calming these two irrational sides, they awaken the third, which is reason, before going to bed, then, as you know, they come closest to truth and are least likely to be overtaken by wild and chaotic visions.

I quite agree.

I totally agree.

In saying this I have been running into a digression; but the point which I desire to note is that in all of us, even in good men, there is a lawless wild-beast nature, which peers out in sleep. Pray, consider whether I am right, and you agree with me.

In saying this, I’ve gotten a bit off track; but the point I want to make is that in all of us, even in good people, there’s a wild, lawless nature that shows itself in our sleep. Please think about whether I’m right and if you agree with me.

Yes, I agree.

Yep, I agree.

And now remember the character which we attributed to the democratic man. He was supposed from his youth upwards to have been trained under a miserly parent, who encouraged the saving appetites in him, but discountenanced the unnecessary, which aim only at amusement and ornament?

And now remember the traits we assigned to the democratic man. He was supposed to have been raised by a stingy parent who fostered his desire to save but discouraged anything unnecessary that was just for fun or decoration.

True.

True.

And then he got into the company of a more refined, licentious sort of people, and taking to all their wanton ways rushed into the opposite extreme from an abhorrence of his father’s meanness. At last, being a better man than his corruptors, he was drawn in both directions until he halted midway and led a life, not of vulgar and slavish passion, but of what he deemed moderate indulgence in various pleasures. After this manner the democrat was generated out of the oligarch?

And then he started hanging out with a more sophisticated and hedonistic crowd, embracing all their reckless ways as a reaction to his father’s stinginess. Eventually, being a better person than those corrupting him, he found himself pulled in both directions until he settled in the middle, living a life not driven by cheap and servile desire, but by what he considered a moderate enjoyment of different pleasures. In this way, the democrat emerged from the oligarch.

Yes, he said; that was our view of him, and is so still.

Yes, he said; that was our opinion of him, and it still is.

And now, I said, years will have passed away, and you must conceive this man, such as he is, to have a son, who is brought up in his father’s principles.

And now, I said, years will have gone by, and you need to imagine this man, just as he is, having a son who is raised in his father's beliefs.

I can imagine him.

I can picture him.

Then you must further imagine the same thing to happen to the son which has already happened to the father:—he is drawn into a perfectly lawless life, which by his seducers is termed perfect liberty; and his father and friends take part with his moderate desires, and the opposite party assist the opposite ones. As soon as these dire magicians and tyrant-makers find that they are losing their hold on him, they contrive to implant in him a master passion, to be lord over his idle and spendthrift lusts—a sort of monstrous winged drone—that is the only image which will adequately describe him.

Then you need to imagine the same thing happening to the son that has already happened to the father: he gets pulled into a completely lawless life, which his seducers call perfect freedom; and his father and friends align with his moderate desires, while the opposing group supports the opposite desires. As soon as these terrible manipulators and tyrant-makers realize they're losing their influence over him, they work to instill in him a dominating passion, one that takes control over his lazy and extravagant cravings—a kind of monstrous winged drone—that’s the only image that really captures him.

Yes, he said, that is the only adequate image of him.

Yes, he said, that is the only true representation of him.

And when his other lusts, amid clouds of incense and perfumes and garlands and wines, and all the pleasures of a dissolute life, now let loose, come buzzing around him, nourishing to the utmost the sting of desire which they implant in his drone-like nature, then at last this lord of the soul, having Madness for the captain of his guard, breaks out into a frenzy: and if he finds in himself any good opinions or appetites in process of formation, and there is in him any sense of shame remaining, to these better principles he puts an end, and casts them forth until he has purged away temperance and brought in madness to the full.

And when his other desires, surrounded by clouds of incense, perfumes, garlands, and wines, and all the pleasures of a reckless life, are finally unleashed, they swarm around him, feeding the sting of desire embedded in his lazy nature. Eventually, this master of the soul, with Madness as his guard, erupts into a frenzy. If he discovers any good thoughts or emerging desires within himself, and if he still feels any sense of shame, he ends those better impulses and discards them until he has driven out temperance and embraced complete madness.

Yes, he said, that is the way in which the tyrannical man is generated.

Yes, he said, that's how the tyrannical person is created.

And is not this the reason why of old love has been called a tyrant?

And isn't this why love has been called a tyrant in the past?

I should not wonder.

I shouldn't be surprised.

Further, I said, has not a drunken man also the spirit of a tyrant?

Further, I said, doesn't a drunk person also have the spirit of a tyrant?

He has.

He has.

And you know that a man who is deranged and not right in his mind, will fancy that he is able to rule, not only over men, but also over the gods?

And you know that a man who is insane and not thinking clearly will believe he can rule not just over people, but also over the gods?

That he will.

He will.

And the tyrannical man in the true sense of the word comes into being when, either under the influence of nature, or habit, or both, he becomes drunken, lustful, passionate? O my friend, is not that so?

And the true tyrant is created when, whether due to nature, habits, or both, he becomes drunk, lustful, and passionate. Oh my friend, isn’t that right?

Assuredly.

For sure.

Such is the man and such is his origin. And next, how does he live?

Such is the man and such is his background. And next, how does he live?

Suppose, as people facetiously say, you were to tell me.

Suppose, as people jokingly say, you were to tell me.

I imagine, I said, at the next step in his progress, that there will be feasts and carousals and revellings and courtezans, and all that sort of thing; Love is the lord of the house within him, and orders all the concerns of his soul.

I imagine, I said, at the next step in his journey, there will be parties and celebrations and wild nights and courtesans, and all that kind of stuff; Love is in charge of the house inside him and manages everything about his soul.

That is certain.

That's for sure.

Yes; and every day and every night desires grow up many and formidable, and their demands are many.

Yes; and every day and every night, desires arise that are numerous and intense, and their demands are significant.

They are indeed, he said.

They really are, he said.

His revenues, if he has any, are soon spent.

His income, if he has any, is quickly gone.

True.

True.

Then comes debt and the cutting down of his property.

Then comes debt and the loss of his property.

Of course.

Sure.

When he has nothing left, must not his desires, crowding in the nest like young ravens, be crying aloud for food; and he, goaded on by them, and especially by love himself, who is in a manner the captain of them, is in a frenzy, and would fain discover whom he can defraud or despoil of his property, in order that he may gratify them?

When he has nothing left, don't his desires, crowding in like hungry young ravens, cry out for what they need? And he, pushed on by them—and especially by love, who is like their leader—becomes frantic and would do anything to figure out whom he can cheat or take from in order to fulfill those desires?

Yes, that is sure to be the case.

Yes, that will definitely be the case.

He must have money, no matter how, if he is to escape horrid pains and pangs.

He has to have money, no matter what it takes, if he wants to escape terrible suffering and distress.

He must.

He has to.

And as in himself there was a succession of pleasures, and the new got the better of the old and took away their rights, so he being younger will claim to have more than his father and his mother, and if he has spent his own share of the property, he will take a slice of theirs.

And just like he has experienced a series of pleasures, with the new ones overtaking the old and removing their claims, he, being younger, will assert that he deserves more than his parents. And if he has already used up his part of the inheritance, he will take a portion of theirs.

No doubt he will.

He definitely will.

And if his parents will not give way, then he will try first of all to cheat and deceive them.

And if his parents won’t budge, then he’ll start by trying to trick and mislead them.

Very true.

So true.

And if he fails, then he will use force and plunder them.

And if he fails, he'll resort to violence and steal from them.

Yes, probably.

Yeah, probably.

And if the old man and woman fight for their own, what then, my friend? Will the creature feel any compunction at tyrannizing over them?

And if the old man and woman fight for themselves, what then, my friend? Will the creature feel any guilt for controlling them?

Nay, he said, I should not feel at all comfortable about his parents.

No, he said, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all about his parents.

But, O heavens! Adeimantus, on account of some new-fangled love of a harlot, who is anything but a necessary connection, can you believe that he would strike the mother who is his ancient friend and necessary to his very existence, and would place her under the authority of the other, when she is brought under the same roof with her; or that, under like circumstances, he would do the same to his withered old father, first and most indispensable of friends, for the sake of some newly-found blooming youth who is the reverse of indispensable?

But, oh my gosh! Adeimantus, because of some trendy infatuation with a prostitute, who is anything but essential, can you really think he would hit his mother, who has been a lifelong friend and crucial to his very existence, and put her under the control of someone else when they’re both living in the same house? Or that, in a similar situation, he would do the same to his frail old father, the first and most essential of friends, just for some newly-discovered attractive young person who is the complete opposite of necessary?

Yes, indeed, he said; I believe that he would.

Yes, he said; I think he would.

Truly, then, I said, a tyrannical son is a blessing to his father and mother.

Truly, I said, a tyrannical son is a blessing to his parents.

He is indeed, he replied.

He is, he replied.

He first takes their property, and when that fails, and pleasures are beginning to swarm in the hive of his soul, then he breaks into a house, or steals the garments of some nightly wayfarer; next he proceeds to clear a temple. Meanwhile the old opinions which he had when a child, and which gave judgment about good and evil, are overthrown by those others which have just been emancipated, and are now the body-guard of love and share his empire. These in his democratic days, when he was still subject to the laws and to his father, were only let loose in the dreams of sleep. But now that he is under the dominion of love, he becomes always and in waking reality what he was then very rarely and in a dream only; he will commit the foulest murder, or eat forbidden food, or be guilty of any other horrid act. Love is his tyrant, and lives lordly in him and lawlessly, and being himself a king, leads him on, as a tyrant leads a State, to the performance of any reckless deed by which he can maintain himself and the rabble of his associates, whether those whom evil communications have brought in from without, or those whom he himself has allowed to break loose within him by reason of a similar evil nature in himself. Have we not here a picture of his way of life?

He first takes their possessions, and when that doesn’t work, and temptations start buzzing in his mind, he breaks into a house or steals the clothes from some late-night traveler. Then he goes on to loot a temple. Meanwhile, the old beliefs he had as a child, which helped him judge right from wrong, are now overturned by new ideas that have just come to life and are now the protectors of love, sharing in his rule. In his earlier days, when he was still bound by laws and his father, those wild thoughts were only free in his dreams. But now that he's under love's control, he becomes what he previously was only rarely and in dreams; he will commit the most heinous murder, eat forbidden food, or do any other horrible act. Love is his master, reigning over him lawlessly, and being a king himself, pushes him into reckless actions that help him and the unruly crowd around him, whether those who have been corrupted from the outside or those he has allowed to be unleashed inside him because of a similar dark nature within himself. Isn’t this a clear depiction of his way of life?

Yes, indeed, he said.

Sure, he said.

And if there are only a few of them in the State, and the rest of the people are well disposed, they go away and become the body-guard or mercenary soldiers of some other tyrant who may probably want them for a war; and if there is no war, they stay at home and do many little pieces of mischief in the city.

And if there are only a few of them in the state, and the rest of the people are friendly, they leave and become the bodyguards or mercenary soldiers for another tyrant who might need them for a war; and if there's no war, they stay at home and cause a lot of trouble in the city.

What sort of mischief?

What kind of trouble?

For example, they are the thieves, burglars, cut-purses, foot-pads, robbers of temples, man-stealers of the community; or if they are able to speak they turn informers, and bear false witness, and take bribes.

For example, they are the thieves, burglars, pickpockets, muggers, temple robbers, and traffickers in people; or if they can talk, they become informants, bear false witness, and accept bribes.

A small catalogue of evils, even if the perpetrators of them are few in number.

A brief list of offenses, even if there are only a few people responsible for them.

Yes, I said; but small and great are comparative terms, and all these things, in the misery and evil which they inflict upon a State, do not come within a thousand miles of the tyrant; when this noxious class and their followers grow numerous and become conscious of their strength, assisted by the infatuation of the people, they choose from among themselves the one who has most of the tyrant in his own soul, and him they create their tyrant.

Yes, I said; but small and great are relative terms, and all these things, in the suffering and harm they cause to a state, don't even come close to the tyrant; when this toxic group and their supporters become numerous and aware of their power, encouraged by the delusion of the people, they select among themselves the one who has the most tyrannical traits within, and that person becomes their tyrant.

Yes, he said, and he will be the most fit to be a tyrant.

Yes, he said, and he will be the most suitable to be a tyrant.

If the people yield, well and good; but if they resist him, as he began by beating his own father and mother, so now, if he has the power, he beats them, and will keep his dear old fatherland or motherland, as the Cretans say, in subjection to his young retainers whom he has introduced to be their rulers and masters. This is the end of his passions and desires.

If the people give in, that's fine; but if they fight back, just like he started by hurting his own parents, now, if he has the strength, he will hurt them too. He’ll keep his beloved homeland, as the Cretans say, under the control of the young followers he's put in charge as their rulers and masters. This is how his passions and desires come to an end.

Exactly.

Exactly.

When such men are only private individuals and before they get power, this is their character; they associate entirely with their own flatterers or ready tools; or if they want anything from anybody, they in their turn are equally ready to bow down before them: they profess every sort of affection for them; but when they have gained their point they know them no more.

When these guys are just regular people and before they get any power, this is who they are; they only hang out with their own yes-men or useful people. If they need something from someone, they’re just as ready to kiss up to them; they show all kinds of love for them. But once they get what they want, they forget all about them.

Yes, truly.

Yep, definitely.

They are always either the masters or servants and never the friends of anybody; the tyrant never tastes of true freedom or friendship.

They are always either the masters or the servants and never anyone's friends; the tyrant never experiences true freedom or friendship.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And may we not rightly call such men treacherous?

And can we really not call such men deceitful?

No question.

No doubt.

Also they are utterly unjust, if we were right in our notion of justice?

Also, they are completely unfair if our idea of justice is correct?

Yes, he said, and we were perfectly right.

Yes, he said, and we were completely right.

Let us then sum up in a word, I said, the character of the worst man: he is the waking reality of what we dreamed.

Let’s sum it up, I said, the essence of the worst person: he is the living truth of what we envisioned.

Most true.

Most definitely.

And this is he who being by nature most of a tyrant bears rule, and the longer he lives the more of a tyrant he becomes.

And this is the one who, by nature, is the most tyrannical and grows more tyrannical the longer he lives.

That is certain, said Glaucon, taking his turn to answer.

"That's for sure," Glaucon said, taking his turn to respond.

And will not he who has been shown to be the wickedest, be also the most miserable? and he who has tyrannized longest and most, most continually and truly miserable; although this may not be the opinion of men in general?

And won't the one who has proven to be the most wicked also be the most miserable? And the one who has oppressed others the longest and the most will be truly miserable, even if that's not what most people believe?

Yes, he said, inevitably.

Yes, he said, of course.

And must not the tyrannical man be like the tyrannical State, and the democratical man like the democratical State; and the same of the others?

And shouldn’t the tyrannical person be like the tyrannical State, and the democratic person like the democratic State? The same goes for the others, right?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And as State is to State in virtue and happiness, so is man in relation to man?

And just as one state is to another in terms of virtue and happiness, so is one person to another?

To be sure.

For sure.

Then comparing our original city, which was under a king, and the city which is under a tyrant, how do they stand as to virtue?

Then comparing our original city, which had a king, and the city that is under a tyrant, how do they measure up in terms of virtue?

They are the opposite extremes, he said, for one is the very best and the other is the very worst.

They are the opposite extremes, he said, because one is the absolute best and the other is the absolute worst.

There can be no mistake, I said, as to which is which, and therefore I will at once enquire whether you would arrive at a similar decision about their relative happiness and misery. And here we must not allow ourselves to be panic-stricken at the apparition of the tyrant, who is only a unit and may perhaps have a few retainers about him; but let us go as we ought into every corner of the city and look all about, and then we will give our opinion.

There’s no doubt about which is which, I said, so I’ll immediately ask if you would come to the same conclusion about their happiness and misery. And we shouldn’t let ourselves be overwhelmed by the sight of the tyrant, who is just one person and might have a few followers with him; instead, let’s explore every part of the city and look around, and then we’ll share our thoughts.

A fair invitation, he replied; and I see, as every one must, that a tyranny is the wretchedest form of government, and the rule of a king the happiest.

A fair invitation, he replied; and I see, as everyone must, that tyranny is the worst form of government, and the rule of a king is the best.

And in estimating the men too, may I not fairly make a like request, that I should have a judge whose mind can enter into and see through human nature? he must not be like a child who looks at the outside and is dazzled at the pompous aspect which the tyrannical nature assumes to the beholder, but let him be one who has a clear insight. May I suppose that the judgment is given in the hearing of us all by one who is able to judge, and has dwelt in the same place with him, and been present at his dally life and known him in his family relations, where he may be seen stripped of his tragedy attire, and again in the hour of public danger—he shall tell us about the happiness and misery of the tyrant when compared with other men?

And when judging the men, can I ask for a similar favor—that I have a judge who truly understands human nature? He shouldn’t be like a child, easily impressed by the outward show that tyranny presents, but rather someone with clear insight. Can I imagine that the judgment is given in front of all of us by someone who can actually judge, has lived alongside him, witnessed his daily life, and knows him in his family dynamics, where he can be seen without his theatrical mask, and also during times of public crisis—he will share with us the happiness and misery of the tyrant compared to other men?

That again, he said, is a very fair proposal.

That, again, he said, is a very fair proposal.

Shall I assume that we ourselves are able and experienced judges and have before now met with such a person? We shall then have some one who will answer our enquiries.

Shall I take it that we are capable and knowledgeable judges and have encountered such a person before? If so, we will then have someone who can respond to our questions.

By all means.

Absolutely.

Let me ask you not to forget the parallel of the individual and the State; bearing this in mind, and glancing in turn from one to the other of them, will you tell me their respective conditions?

Let me ask you to remember the connection between the individual and the State; keeping this in mind, and looking back and forth between the two, can you tell me about their respective situations?

What do you mean? he asked.

"What do you mean?" he asked.

Beginning with the State, I replied, would you say that a city which is governed by a tyrant is free or enslaved?

Starting with the State, I asked, would you say that a city ruled by a tyrant is free or enslaved?

No city, he said, can be more completely enslaved.

No city, he said, can be more completely controlled.

And yet, as you see, there are freemen as well as masters in such a State?

And yet, as you can see, there are free people as well as masters in such a State?

Yes, he said, I see that there are—a few; but the people, speaking generally, and the best of them are miserably degraded and enslaved.

Yes, he said, I see that there are a few; but generally speaking, the people, even the best of them, are terribly degraded and enslaved.

Then if the man is like the State, I said, must not the same rule prevail? his soul is full of meanness and vulgarity—the best elements in him are enslaved; and there is a small ruling part, which is also the worst and maddest.

Then if the man is like the State, I said, shouldn't the same rule apply? His soul is filled with pettiness and crudity—the best parts of him are oppressed; and there is a small controlling part, which is also the worst and most irrational.

Inevitably.

Inevitably.

And would you say that the soul of such an one is the soul of a freeman, or of a slave?

And would you say that the soul of someone like that is the soul of a free person, or of a slave?

He has the soul of a slave, in my opinion.

He has the spirit of a slave, in my view.

And the State which is enslaved under a tyrant is utterly incapable of acting voluntarily?

And the state that is oppressed by a tyrant is completely unable to act freely?

Utterly incapable.

Completely unable.

And also the soul which is under a tyrant (I am speaking of the soul taken as a whole) is least capable of doing what she desires; there is a gadfly which goads her, and she is full of trouble and remorse?

And also, the soul that is under a tyrant (I’m referring to the soul as a whole) is the least able to do what it wants; there’s a gadfly that bothers it, and it’s filled with trouble and regret?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

And is the city which is under a tyrant rich or poor?

And is the city ruled by a tyrant rich or poor?

Poor.

Broke.

And the tyrannical soul must be always poor and insatiable?

And does the tyrannical soul always have to be poor and never satisfied?

True.

True.

And must not such a State and such a man be always full of fear?

And shouldn’t a state like that and a person like that always be filled with fear?

Yes, indeed.

Yes, definitely.

Is there any State in which you will find more of lamentation and sorrow and groaning and pain?

Is there any place where you'll find more crying, sadness, and suffering?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And is there any man in whom you will find more of this sort of misery than in the tyrannical man, who is in a fury of passions and desires?

And is there any man in whom you will find more of this kind of misery than in the tyrannical man, who is consumed by his passions and desires?

Impossible.

Not possible.

Reflecting upon these and similar evils, you held the tyrannical State to be the most miserable of States?

Reflecting on these and similar injustices, did you consider the oppressive State to be the most wretched of all States?

And I was right, he said.

And I was right, he said.

Certainly, I said. And when you see the same evils in the tyrannical man, what do you say of him?

Certainly, I said. And when you notice the same wrongs in the tyrannical person, what do you think of them?

I say that he is by far the most miserable of all men.

I say that he is definitely the most miserable man of all.

There, I said, I think that you are beginning to go wrong.

There, I said, I think you’re starting to go off track.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I do not think that he has as yet reached the utmost extreme of misery.

I don't think he has hit rock bottom yet.

Then who is more miserable?

Then who’s more miserable?

One of whom I am about to speak.

One of whom I’m about to talk about.

Who is that?

Who's that?

He who is of a tyrannical nature, and instead of leading a private life has been cursed with the further misfortune of being a public tyrant.

The person who has a tyrannical nature, and instead of living a private life, has been unfortunate enough to become a public tyrant.

From what has been said, I gather that you are right.

From what I've heard, I understand that you're correct.

Yes, I replied, but in this high argument you should be a little more certain, and should not conjecture only; for of all questions, this respecting good and evil is the greatest.

"Yes," I replied, "but in this important discussion, you should be a bit more certain and not just guessing; because out of all questions, this one about good and evil is the most significant."

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Let me then offer you an illustration, which may, I think, throw a light upon this subject.

Let me give you an example that I believe will clarify this topic.

What is your illustration?

What’s your illustration?

The case of rich individuals in cities who possess many slaves: from them you may form an idea of the tyrant’s condition, for they both have slaves; the only difference is that he has more slaves.

The situation of wealthy people in cities who own many slaves: from them you can get a sense of the tyrant’s condition, as both have slaves; the only difference is that the tyrant has more slaves.

Yes, that is the difference.

Yep, that's the difference.

You know that they live securely and have nothing to apprehend from their servants?

You know that they live safely and have nothing to worry about from their servants?

What should they fear?

What should they be afraid of?

Nothing. But do you observe the reason of this?

Nothing. But do you see the reason for this?

Yes; the reason is, that the whole city is leagued together for the protection of each individual.

Yes; the reason is that the whole city is united together to protect each individual.

Very true, I said. But imagine one of these owners, the master say of some fifty slaves, together with his family and property and slaves, carried off by a god into the wilderness, where there are no freemen to help him—will he not be in an agony of fear lest he and his wife and children should be put to death by his slaves?

Very true, I said. But imagine one of these owners, the master of about fifty slaves, along with his family and property, taken by a god into the wilderness, where there are no free people to help him—won't he be in a panic, fearing that he and his wife and children could be killed by his slaves?

Yes, he said, he will be in the utmost fear.

Yes, he said, he will be extremely scared.

The time has arrived when he will be compelled to flatter divers of his slaves, and make many promises to them of freedom and other things, much against his will—he will have to cajole his own servants.

The time has come when he will have to flatter several of his slaves and make them many promises of freedom and other things, which he really doesn’t want to do—he will have to sweet-talk his own servants.

Yes, he said, that will be the only way of saving himself.

Yes, he said, that's the only way to save himself.

And suppose the same god, who carried him away, to surround him with neighbours who will not suffer one man to be the master of another, and who, if they could catch the offender, would take his life?

And imagine the same god, who took him away, surrounding him with neighbors who won’t allow anyone to be the master over another, and who, if they could catch the wrongdoer, would take his life?

His case will be still worse, if you suppose him to be everywhere surrounded and watched by enemies.

His situation will be even worse if you imagine that he is constantly surrounded and watched by enemies.

And is not this the sort of prison in which the tyrant will be bound—he who being by nature such as we have described, is full of all sorts of fears and lusts? His soul is dainty and greedy, and yet alone, of all men in the city, he is never allowed to go on a journey, or to see the things which other freemen desire to see, but he lives in his hole like a woman hidden in the house, and is jealous of any other citizen who goes into foreign parts and sees anything of interest.

And isn't this the kind of prison where the tyrant is trapped—someone who, by nature as we've described, is filled with all kinds of fears and desires? His soul is both delicate and greedy, yet, unlike anyone else in the city, he’s never allowed to travel or experience the things that other free people want to see. Instead, he lives in his hideout like a woman kept inside the house and envies any other citizen who gets to travel and explore interesting places.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

And amid evils such as these will not he who is ill-governed in his own person—the tyrannical man, I mean—whom you just now decided to be the most miserable of all—will not he be yet more miserable when, instead of leading a private life, he is constrained by fortune to be a public tyrant? He has to be master of others when he is not master of himself: he is like a diseased or paralytic man who is compelled to pass his life, not in retirement, but fighting and combating with other men.

And in the face of evils like these, won’t the person who is poorly governed within himself—the tyrannical person, as you recently decided is the most miserable of all—be even more miserable when, instead of living a private life, he's forced by circumstances to be a public tyrant? He has to be in charge of others while he can’t even control himself: he’s like a sick or paralyzed person who has to live not in seclusion, but battling and struggling with others.

Yes, he said, the similitude is most exact.

Yes, he said, the comparison is very accurate.

Is not his case utterly miserable? and does not the actual tyrant lead a worse life than he whose life you determined to be the worst?

Isn't his situation completely miserable? And doesn't the real tyrant live a worse life than the one you decided was the worst?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

He who is the real tyrant, whatever men may think, is the real slave, and is obliged to practise the greatest adulation and servility, and to be the flatterer of the vilest of mankind. He has desires which he is utterly unable to satisfy, and has more wants than any one, and is truly poor, if you know how to inspect the whole soul of him: all his life long he is beset with fear and is full of convulsions and distractions, even as the State which he resembles: and surely the resemblance holds?

The one who is truly a tyrant, no matter what people might believe, is actually the real prisoner and is forced to show the greatest flattery and servitude, becoming a sycophant to the most despicable individuals. He has desires he can't fulfill and more needs than anyone else, making him genuinely poor if you look closely at his entire being. Throughout his life, he is plagued by fear and is filled with turmoil and distractions, much like the State he mirrors; and surely, the comparison is accurate?

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Moreover, as we were saying before, he grows worse from having power: he becomes and is of necessity more jealous, more faithless, more unjust, more friendless, more impious, than he was at first; he is the purveyor and cherisher of every sort of vice, and the consequence is that he is supremely miserable, and that he makes everybody else as miserable as himself.

Moreover, as we mentioned earlier, he becomes worse from having power: he becomes more jealous, more untrustworthy, more unfair, more isolated, more immoral than he was before; he encourages and nurtures all kinds of wrongdoing, and as a result, he is extremely unhappy and makes everyone around him just as miserable.

No man of any sense will dispute your words.

No sensible person would argue with what you said.

Come then, I said, and as the general umpire in theatrical contests proclaims the result, do you also decide who in your opinion is first in the scale of happiness, and who second, and in what order the others follow: there are five of them in all—they are the royal, timocratical, oligarchical, democratical, tyrannical.

Come on then, I said, and just like the judge in theater competitions announces the winner, you also decide who you think is at the top of the happiness scale, who's second, and how the others are ranked: there are five total—they are royal, timocratic, oligarchic, democratic, and tyrannical.

The decision will be easily given, he replied; they shall be choruses coming on the stage, and I must judge them in the order in which they enter, by the criterion of virtue and vice, happiness and misery.

The decision will be made easily, he replied; there will be choruses coming on stage, and I must evaluate them in the order they enter, based on the criteria of good and bad, happiness and sadness.

Need we hire a herald, or shall I announce, that the son of Ariston (the best) has decided that the best and justest is also the happiest, and that this is he who is the most royal man and king over himself; and that the worst and most unjust man is also the most miserable, and that this is he who being the greatest tyrant of himself is also the greatest tyrant of his State?

Need we hire a messenger, or shall I announce that the son of Ariston (the best) has decided that the best and most just is also the happiest, and that this person is the most noble man and king of himself; and that the worst and most unjust man is also the most miserable, and that this person, being the greatest tyrant of himself, is also the greatest tyrant of his state?

Make the proclamation yourself, he said.

Make the announcement yourself, he said.

And shall I add, ‘whether seen or unseen by gods and men’?

And should I add, 'whether gods and people see it or not'?

Let the words be added.

Add the words.

Then this, I said, will be our first proof; and there is another, which may also have some weight.

Then this, I said, will be our first piece of evidence; and there's another one that might also hold some significance.

What is that?

What’s that?

The second proof is derived from the nature of the soul: seeing that the individual soul, like the State, has been divided by us into three principles, the division may, I think, furnish a new demonstration.

The second proof comes from the nature of the soul: since we have divided the individual soul, much like the State, into three principles, this division may, I believe, provide a new demonstration.

Of what nature?

What kind?

It seems to me that to these three principles three pleasures correspond; also three desires and governing powers.

It seems to me that these three principles correspond to three pleasures; they also relate to three desires and governing powers.

How do you mean? he said.

How do you mean? he asked.

There is one principle with which, as we were saying, a man learns, another with which he is angry; the third, having many forms, has no special name, but is denoted by the general term appetitive, from the extraordinary strength and vehemence of the desires of eating and drinking and the other sensual appetites which are the main elements of it; also money-loving, because such desires are generally satisfied by the help of money.

There’s one principle through which a person learns, another through which he feels anger; the third, which takes many forms, doesn’t have a specific name but is generally referred to as appetitive, due to the intense strength and urgency of the desires for eating, drinking, and other physical cravings that are its main components; it’s also associated with being money-loving because these desires are typically fulfilled with money.

That is true, he said.

"That's true," he said.

If we were to say that the loves and pleasures of this third part were concerned with gain, we should then be able to fall back on a single notion; and might truly and intelligibly describe this part of the soul as loving gain or money.

If we were to say that the loves and pleasures of this third part were focused on gaining something, we could rely on a single idea; and we could genuinely and clearly describe this part of the soul as loving gain or money.

I agree with you.

I’m with you.

Again, is not the passionate element wholly set on ruling and conquering and getting fame?

Isn't the passionate element completely focused on ruling, conquering, and gaining fame?

True.

True.

Suppose we call it the contentious or ambitious—would the term be suitable?

Suppose we call it the contentious or ambitious—would that term fit?

Extremely suitable.

Perfectly suitable.

On the other hand, every one sees that the principle of knowledge is wholly directed to the truth, and cares less than either of the others for gain or fame.

On the other hand, everyone sees that the foundation of knowledge is completely focused on truth and is less concerned with profit or recognition than the others.

Far less.

Much less.

‘Lover of wisdom,’ ‘lover of knowledge,’ are titles which we may fitly apply to that part of the soul?

‘Lover of wisdom,’ ‘lover of knowledge,’ are titles that we can appropriately assign to that part of the soul?

Certainly.

Sure.

One principle prevails in the souls of one class of men, another in others, as may happen?

One principle dominates the minds of one group of people, while another prevails in different ones, as it sometimes does?

Yes.

Yes.

Then we may begin by assuming that there are three classes of men—lovers of wisdom, lovers of honour, lovers of gain?

Then we can start by assuming that there are three types of people—those who love wisdom, those who love honor, and those who love wealth?

Exactly.

Exactly.

And there are three kinds of pleasure, which are their several objects?

And there are three types of pleasure, each with its own specific objects.

Very true.

So true.

Now, if you examine the three classes of men, and ask of them in turn which of their lives is pleasantest, each will be found praising his own and depreciating that of others: the money-maker will contrast the vanity of honour or of learning if they bring no money with the solid advantages of gold and silver?

Now, if you look at the three types of men and ask each which of their lives is the most enjoyable, you'll find that each one praises his own while downplaying the others: the money-maker will point out the uselessness of honor or knowledge if they don’t lead to wealth, contrasting it with the real benefits of gold and silver.

True, he said.

He said it's true.

And the lover of honour—what will be his opinion? Will he not think that the pleasure of riches is vulgar, while the pleasure of learning, if it brings no distinction, is all smoke and nonsense to him?

And what about the person who values honor—what will he think? Won’t he consider the joy of wealth to be cheap, while the joy of knowledge, if it doesn’t earn him any recognition, is just empty talk to him?

Very true.

So true.

And are we to suppose, I said, that the philosopher sets any value on other pleasures in comparison with the pleasure of knowing the truth, and in that pursuit abiding, ever learning, not so far indeed from the heaven of pleasure? Does he not call the other pleasures necessary, under the idea that if there were no necessity for them, he would rather not have them?

And are we supposed to think, I asked, that the philosopher values any other pleasures compared to the pleasure of knowing the truth, and in that pursuit stays, always learning, not too far from the peak of pleasure? Doesn't he refer to other pleasures as necessary, believing that if they weren't necessary, he'd rather not have them at all?

There can be no doubt of that, he replied.

There’s definitely no doubt about that, he replied.

Since, then, the pleasures of each class and the life of each are in dispute, and the question is not which life is more or less honourable, or better or worse, but which is the more pleasant or painless—how shall we know who speaks truly?

Since the pleasures of each class and the experiences of each are up for debate, and the question isn't which life is more or less honorable, or better or worse, but which is more enjoyable or less painful—how can we determine who is being truthful?

I cannot myself tell, he said.

I can't say for sure, he said.

Well, but what ought to be the criterion? Is any better than experience and wisdom and reason?

Well, what should the standard be? Is there anything better than experience, wisdom, and reason?

There cannot be a better, he said.

There can’t be anything better, he said.

Then, I said, reflect. Of the three individuals, which has the greatest experience of all the pleasures which we enumerated? Has the lover of gain, in learning the nature of essential truth, greater experience of the pleasure of knowledge than the philosopher has of the pleasure of gain?

Then, I said, think about it. Out of the three people, who has the most experience with all the pleasures we've talked about? Does the person who loves profit, by discovering the essence of truth, have a greater experience of the pleasure of knowledge than the philosopher has of the pleasure of profit?

The philosopher, he replied, has greatly the advantage; for he has of necessity always known the taste of the other pleasures from his childhood upwards: but the lover of gain in all his experience has not of necessity tasted—or, I should rather say, even had he desired, could hardly have tasted—the sweetness of learning and knowing truth.

The philosopher, he replied, definitely has the upper hand; because he has, from childhood on, always experienced the enjoyment of other pleasures. However, the person focused solely on profit, throughout all his experiences, has not necessarily tasted—or, I’d even say, even if he wanted to, he could hardly have tasted—the joy of learning and discovering the truth.

Then the lover of wisdom has a great advantage over the lover of gain, for he has a double experience?

Then the lover of wisdom has a huge advantage over the lover of profit, because he has a richer experience.

Yes, very great.

Yes, very good.

Again, has he greater experience of the pleasures of honour, or the lover of honour of the pleasures of wisdom?

Again, does he have more experience with the pleasures of honor, or does the lover of honor have more experience with the pleasures of wisdom?

Nay, he said, all three are honoured in proportion as they attain their object; for the rich man and the brave man and the wise man alike have their crowd of admirers, and as they all receive honour they all have experience of the pleasures of honour; but the delight which is to be found in the knowledge of true being is known to the philosopher only.

No, he said, all three are honored based on how much they achieve their goals; because the wealthy, the courageous, and the wise all have their share of admirers. They all receive honor and enjoy the pleasures that come with it; however, the joy found in understanding true existence is something only the philosopher experiences.

His experience, then, will enable him to judge better than any one?

His experience will allow him to judge better than anyone else?

Far better.

Much better.

And he is the only one who has wisdom as well as experience?

And he’s the only one with both wisdom and experience?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Further, the very faculty which is the instrument of judgment is not possessed by the covetous or ambitious man, but only by the philosopher?

Furthermore, the ability to judge is not held by the greedy or ambitious person, but only by the philosopher.

What faculty?

Which faculty?

Reason, with whom, as we were saying, the decision ought to rest.

Reason, with whom the decision should really lie.

Yes.

Yes.

And reasoning is peculiarly his instrument?

And is reasoning really his tool?

Certainly.

Sure.

If wealth and gain were the criterion, then the praise or blame of the lover of gain would surely be the most trustworthy?

If wealth and success were the standard, then the opinions of someone who loves to gain would definitely be the most reliable, right?

Assuredly.

For sure.

Or if honour or victory or courage, in that case the judgment of the ambitious or pugnacious would be the truest?

Or if honor or victory or bravery is the case, then would the judgment of the ambitious or combative be the most accurate?

Clearly.

Clearly.

But since experience and wisdom and reason are the judges—

But since experience, wisdom, and reason are the ones making the judgments—

The only inference possible, he replied, is that pleasures which are approved by the lover of wisdom and reason are the truest.

The only conclusion we can draw, he replied, is that pleasures validated by the lover of wisdom and reason are the most genuine.

And so we arrive at the result, that the pleasure of the intelligent part of the soul is the pleasantest of the three, and that he of us in whom this is the ruling principle has the pleasantest life.

And so we come to the conclusion that the pleasure of the intelligent part of the soul is the most enjoyable of the three, and the person among us who has this as their guiding principle lives the happiest life.

Unquestionably, he said, the wise man speaks with authority when he approves of his own life.

Without a doubt, he said, the wise person speaks confidently when they are content with their own life.

And what does the judge affirm to be the life which is next, and the pleasure which is next?

And what does the judge say is the next life and the next pleasure?

Clearly that of the soldier and lover of honour; who is nearer to himself than the money-maker.

Clearly that of the soldier and lover of honor; who is closer to himself than the money-maker.

Last comes the lover of gain?

Is the last person money-driven?

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Twice in succession, then, has the just man overthrown the unjust in this conflict; and now comes the third trial, which is dedicated to Olympian Zeus the saviour: a sage whispers in my ear that no pleasure except that of the wise is quite true and pure—all others are a shadow only; and surely this will prove the greatest and most decisive of falls?

Twice in a row, the righteous person has defeated the unjust in this battle; and now the third challenge arrives, which is dedicated to Olympian Zeus, the savior: a wise person tells me that no pleasure except that of the wise is truly genuine and pure—all others are just an illusion; and surely this will turn out to be the greatest and most significant downfall?

Yes, the greatest; but will you explain yourself?

Yes, the greatest; but can you explain what you mean?

I will work out the subject and you shall answer my questions.

I’ll figure out the topic, and you’ll answer my questions.

Proceed.

Understood! Please provide the text you'd like to modernize.

Say, then, is not pleasure opposed to pain?

Say, isn’t pleasure the opposite of pain?

True.

True.

And there is a neutral state which is neither pleasure nor pain?

And is there a neutral state that is neither pleasure nor pain?

There is.

There is.

A state which is intermediate, and a sort of repose of the soul about either—that is what you mean?

A state that’s in between, like a calm feeling about either one—that’s what you mean?

Yes.

Yes.

You remember what people say when they are sick?

You remember what people say when they're feeling sick?

What do they say?

What do they mean?

That after all nothing is pleasanter than health. But then they never knew this to be the greatest of pleasures until they were ill.

That, after all, nothing is more enjoyable than being healthy. But they only realized this was the greatest pleasure after they got sick.

Yes, I know, he said.

Yep, I know, he said.

And when persons are suffering from acute pain, you must have heard them say that there is nothing pleasanter than to get rid of their pain?

And when people are in severe pain, you must have heard them say that there's nothing better than getting rid of their pain?

I have.

I have.

And there are many other cases of suffering in which the mere rest and cessation of pain, and not any positive enjoyment, is extolled by them as the greatest pleasure?

And there are many other instances of suffering where simply having some rest and the end of pain, rather than any actual joy, is praised by them as the greatest pleasure?

Yes, he said; at the time they are pleased and well content to be at rest.

Yes, he said; at that moment, they are happy and satisfied to be at peace.

Again, when pleasure ceases, that sort of rest or cessation will be painful?

Again, when pleasure stops, will that kind of pause or break be painful?

Doubtless, he said.

No doubt, he said.

Then the intermediate state of rest will be pleasure and will also be pain?

Then the state of rest in between will be both pleasure and pain?

So it would seem.

Looks that way.

But can that which is neither become both?

But can something that is neither become both?

I should say not.

I shouldn’t say that.

And both pleasure and pain are motions of the soul, are they not?

And both pleasure and pain are movements of the soul, aren't they?

Yes.

Yes.

But that which is neither was just now shown to be rest and not motion, and in a mean between them?

But what is neither was just shown to be rest and not motion, existing in a balance between the two?

Yes.

Yes.

How, then, can we be right in supposing that the absence of pain is pleasure, or that the absence of pleasure is pain?

How can we be correct in thinking that not feeling pain is the same as feeling pleasure, or that not feeling pleasure is the same as feeling pain?

Impossible.

No way.

This then is an appearance only and not a reality; that is to say, the rest is pleasure at the moment and in comparison of what is painful, and painful in comparison of what is pleasant; but all these representations, when tried by the test of true pleasure, are not real but a sort of imposition?

This is just an appearance and not the actual truth; in other words, pleasure is only felt in the moment and when compared to pain, and pain is felt when compared to pleasure. But when all these perceptions are measured against genuine pleasure, they aren't real—they're more like a trick?

That is the inference.

That's the conclusion.

Look at the other class of pleasures which have no antecedent pains and you will no longer suppose, as you perhaps may at present, that pleasure is only the cessation of pain, or pain of pleasure.

Look at the other kinds of pleasures that come without any prior pains, and you won’t think anymore, as you might now, that pleasure is simply the end of pain, or that pain is just the absence of pleasure.

What are they, he said, and where shall I find them?

What are they, he asked, and where can I find them?

There are many of them: take as an example the pleasures of smell, which are very great and have no antecedent pains; they come in a moment, and when they depart leave no pain behind them.

There are many of them: for instance, consider the pleasures of smell, which are very intense and don’t come with any prior pains; they arrive suddenly, and when they go, they leave no discomfort behind.

Most true, he said.

Most definitely, he said.

Let us not, then, be induced to believe that pure pleasure is the cessation of pain, or pain of pleasure.

Let’s not be fooled into thinking that pure pleasure is just the absence of pain, or that pain is the absence of pleasure.

No.

No.

Still, the more numerous and violent pleasures which reach the soul through the body are generally of this sort—they are reliefs of pain.

Still, the more numerous and intense pleasures that come to the soul through the body are usually of this kind—they provide relief from pain.

That is true.

That's true.

And the anticipations of future pleasures and pains are of a like nature?

Are the expectations of future pleasures and pains similar?

Yes.

Yes.

Shall I give you an illustration of them?

Shall I give you an example of them?

Let me hear.

Show me.

You would allow, I said, that there is in nature an upper and lower and middle region?

You would agree, I said, that there are upper, lower, and middle areas in nature?

I should.

I should.

And if a person were to go from the lower to the middle region, would he not imagine that he is going up; and he who is standing in the middle and sees whence he has come, would imagine that he is already in the upper region, if he has never seen the true upper world?

And if someone were to move from the lower area to the middle area, wouldn’t they think they’re going up? And the person standing in the middle, seeing where they came from, would think they’re already in the upper area if they’ve never seen the real upper world?

To be sure, he said; how can he think otherwise?

To be sure, he said; how could he think any differently?

But if he were taken back again he would imagine, and truly imagine, that he was descending?

But if he were taken back again, he would picture, and really picture, that he was going down?

No doubt.

No way.

All that would arise out of his ignorance of the true upper and middle and lower regions?

All that would come from his lack of understanding of the true upper, middle, and lower regions?

Yes.

Yes.

Then can you wonder that persons who are inexperienced in the truth, as they have wrong ideas about many other things, should also have wrong ideas about pleasure and pain and the intermediate state; so that when they are only being drawn towards the painful they feel pain and think the pain which they experience to be real, and in like manner, when drawn away from pain to the neutral or intermediate state, they firmly believe that they have reached the goal of satiety and pleasure; they, not knowing pleasure, err in contrasting pain with the absence of pain, which is like contrasting black with grey instead of white—can you wonder, I say, at this?

Can you really be surprised that people who aren't familiar with the truth, just like they have mistaken ideas about many other things, also have incorrect ideas about pleasure and pain and the neutral state? So when they feel pain, they think that what they're experiencing is real pain, and similarly, when they move away from pain to a neutral or intermediate state, they genuinely believe they've achieved satisfaction and pleasure. They don't understand pleasure, so they mistakenly compare pain with the absence of pain, which is like comparing black with gray instead of white. Can you really be surprised by this?

No, indeed; I should be much more disposed to wonder at the opposite.

No, really; I would be much more inclined to be surprised by the opposite.

Look at the matter thus:—Hunger, thirst, and the like, are inanitions of the bodily state?

Look at it this way: Hunger, thirst, and similar feelings are deficiencies in the body's condition?

Yes.

Yes.

And ignorance and folly are inanitions of the soul?

And is ignorance and foolishness a depletion of the soul?

True.

True.

And food and wisdom are the corresponding satisfactions of either?

And are food and wisdom the matching satisfactions of each?

Certainly.

Sure.

And is the satisfaction derived from that which has less or from that which has more existence the truer?

And is the satisfaction that comes from what has less or from what has more existence the more genuine?

Clearly, from that which has more.

Clearly, from what matters more.

What classes of things have a greater share of pure existence in your judgment—those of which food and drink and condiments and all kinds of sustenance are examples, or the class which contains true opinion and knowledge and mind and all the different kinds of virtue? Put the question in this way:—Which has a more pure being—that which is concerned with the invariable, the immortal, and the true, and is of such a nature, and is found in such natures; or that which is concerned with and found in the variable and mortal, and is itself variable and mortal?

What categories of things do you think have a higher level of pure existence—those that include food, drink, condiments, and all sorts of nourishment, or those that encompass true opinion, knowledge, mind, and all various kinds of virtue? Frame the question like this: Which has a more pure being—the one that deals with the unchanging, the eternal, and the true, and has that kind of nature, and is found in such natures; or the one that deals with and exists in the changing and mortal, and is itself changing and mortal?

Far purer, he replied, is the being of that which is concerned with the invariable.

Far purer, he replied, is the nature of that which is focused on the unchanging.

And does the essence of the invariable partake of knowledge in the same degree as of essence?

And does the nature of the unchanging have as much to do with knowledge as it does with essence?

Yes, of knowledge in the same degree.

Yes, of knowledge to the same extent.

And of truth in the same degree?

And is that true to the same extent?

Yes.

Yes.

And, conversely, that which has less of truth will also have less of essence?

And, on the flip side, whatever has less truth will also have less essence?

Necessarily.

Required.

Then, in general, those kinds of things which are in the service of the body have less of truth and essence than those which are in the service of the soul?

Then, generally speaking, things that serve the body have less truth and essence than those that serve the soul?

Far less.

Much less.

And has not the body itself less of truth and essence than the soul?

And doesn’t the body itself have less truth and substance than the soul?

Yes.

Yes.

What is filled with more real existence, and actually has a more real existence, is more really filled than that which is filled with less real existence and is less real?

What has more genuine existence and actually possesses a more genuine existence is more truly filled than what has less genuine existence and is less genuine?

Of course.

Of course.

And if there be a pleasure in being filled with that which is according to nature, that which is more really filled with more real being will more really and truly enjoy true pleasure; whereas that which participates in less real being will be less truly and surely satisfied, and will participate in an illusory and less real pleasure?

And if there's a joy in being filled with what is natural, then being filled with what has more true existence will bring a deeper and more genuine enjoyment of true pleasure; while something that has less genuine existence will be less truly satisfied and will experience a false and less substantial pleasure?

Unquestionably.

Definitely.

Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they taste of pure and abiding pleasure. Like cattle, with their eyes always looking down and their heads stooping to the earth, that is, to the dining-table, they fatten and feed and breed, and, in their excessive love of these delights, they kick and butt at one another with horns and hoofs which are made of iron; and they kill one another by reason of their insatiable lust. For they fill themselves with that which is not substantial, and the part of themselves which they fill is also unsubstantial and incontinent.

Those who lack wisdom and virtue, and are constantly preoccupied with overeating and indulgence, go up and down as far as the middle ground; in this area, they wander aimlessly throughout life, but they never reach the true higher existence; they neither look toward it nor find their way there, nor do they experience genuine existence or enjoy lasting pleasure. Like animals, their eyes always looking down and their heads bent toward the ground, meaning the dining table, they grow fat and consume and reproduce, and in their excessive craving for these pleasures, they fight and harm each other with iron-like horns and hooves; they even end up killing each other due to their unquenchable desire. They fill themselves with things that aren't real, and the part of themselves that they fill is also insubstantial and uncontrollable.

Verily, Socrates, said Glaucon, you describe the life of the many like an oracle.

Surely, Socrates, Glaucon said, you portray the lives of the masses like a prophet.

Their pleasures are mixed with pains—how can they be otherwise? For they are mere shadows and pictures of the true, and are coloured by contrast, which exaggerates both light and shade, and so they implant in the minds of fools insane desires of themselves; and they are fought about as Stesichorus says that the Greeks fought about the shadow of Helen at Troy in ignorance of the truth.

Their pleasures come with pain—how could they not? They are just shadows and images of what’s real, colored by contrast that amplifies both light and dark. This creates ridiculous desires in the minds of fools; they're obsessed over just like Stesichorus says the Greeks fought over the shadow of Helen at Troy without knowing the truth.

Something of that sort must inevitably happen.

Something like that is bound to happen.

And must not the like happen with the spirited or passionate element of the soul? Will not the passionate man who carries his passion into action, be in the like case, whether he is envious and ambitious, or violent and contentious, or angry and discontented, if he be seeking to attain honour and victory and the satisfaction of his anger without reason or sense?

And shouldn't the same apply to the passionate side of the soul? Isn't it true that a passionate person who acts on their emotions will find themselves in a similar situation, whether they're feeling envy and ambition, being aggressive and quarrelsome, or experiencing anger and dissatisfaction, if they're trying to achieve honor, victory, or vent their anger without any reason or understanding?

Yes, he said, the same will happen with the spirited element also.

Yes, he said, the same thing will happen with the spirited element too.

Then may we not confidently assert that the lovers of money and honour, when they seek their pleasures under the guidance and in the company of reason and knowledge, and pursue after and win the pleasures which wisdom shows them, will also have the truest pleasures in the highest degree which is attainable to them, inasmuch as they follow truth; and they will have the pleasures which are natural to them, if that which is best for each one is also most natural to him?

Then can we not confidently say that those who love money and honor, when they seek their pleasures with the guidance and company of reason and knowledge, and pursue and achieve the pleasures that wisdom reveals to them, will also experience the truest pleasures to the greatest extent possible, since they are following the truth? And they will enjoy the pleasures that are natural to them, if what is best for each person is also what is most natural for them?

Yes, certainly; the best is the most natural.

Yes, definitely; the best is the most natural.

And when the whole soul follows the philosophical principle, and there is no division, the several parts are just, and do each of them their own business, and enjoy severally the best and truest pleasures of which they are capable?

And when the entire soul embraces the philosophical principle, and there’s no division, the different parts are just, each doing their own thing, and individually enjoying the best and truest pleasures they can attain?

Exactly.

Exactly.

But when either of the two other principles prevails, it fails in attaining its own pleasure, and compels the rest to pursue after a pleasure which is a shadow only and which is not their own?

But when either of the other two principles takes over, it fails to achieve its own pleasure and forces the others to chase a pleasure that is just an illusion and not truly theirs?

True.

True.

And the greater the interval which separates them from philosophy and reason, the more strange and illusive will be the pleasure?

And the longer the gap that keeps them away from philosophy and reason, the stranger and more elusive the pleasure will be?

Yes.

Yes.

And is not that farthest from reason which is at the greatest distance from law and order?

And isn't what is farthest from reason also the thing that is the most distant from law and order?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And the lustful and tyrannical desires are, as we saw, at the greatest distance? Yes.

And the greedy and oppressive desires are, as we observed, the farthest apart? Yes.

And the royal and orderly desires are nearest?

And are the royal and orderly desires the closest?

Yes.

Yes.

Then the tyrant will live at the greatest distance from true or natural pleasure, and the king at the least?

Then the tyrant will live farthest away from real or natural pleasure, while the king will be closest?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

But if so, the tyrant will live most unpleasantly, and the king most pleasantly?

But if that's the case, the tyrant will live a very unpleasant life, while the king will live quite pleasantly?

Inevitably.

Inevitably.

Would you know the measure of the interval which separates them?

Would you know how far apart they are?

Will you tell me?

Will you tell me?

There appear to be three pleasures, one genuine and two spurious: now the transgression of the tyrant reaches a point beyond the spurious; he has run away from the region of law and reason, and taken up his abode with certain slave pleasures which are his satellites, and the measure of his inferiority can only be expressed in a figure.

There seem to be three kinds of pleasure: one is real and two are fake. Now, the tyrant's wrongdoing has gone beyond the fake; he has escaped the realm of law and reason and has embraced certain base pleasures that surround him. The extent of his inferiority can only be represented numerically.

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

I assume, I said, that the tyrant is in the third place from the oligarch; the democrat was in the middle?

I assume, I said, that the tyrant is in third place after the oligarch; the democrat was in the middle?

Yes.

Yes.

And if there is truth in what has preceded, he will be wedded to an image of pleasure which is thrice removed as to truth from the pleasure of the oligarch?

And if what has been said is true, he will be attached to a version of pleasure that is three steps away from the actual pleasure of the oligarch?

He will.

He will.

And the oligarch is third from the royal; since we count as one royal and aristocratical?

And the oligarch is third in line after the royal; since we consider one as both royal and aristocratic?

Yes, he is third.

Yes, he’s in third place.

Then the tyrant is removed from true pleasure by the space of a number which is three times three?

Then the tyrant is kept away from real pleasure by the distance of a number that is three times three.

Manifestly.

Clearly.

The shadow then of tyrannical pleasure determined by the number of length will be a plane figure.

The shadow of oppressive pleasure, defined by its length, will form a flat shape.

Certainly.

Sure.

And if you raise the power and make the plane a solid, there is no difficulty in seeing how vast is the interval by which the tyrant is parted from the king.

And if you increase the power and make the plane solid, it's easy to see how great the gap is between the tyrant and the king.

Yes; the arithmetician will easily do the sum.

Yes, the mathematician will quickly calculate the total.

Or if some person begins at the other end and measures the interval by which the king is parted from the tyrant in truth of pleasure, he will find him, when the multiplication is completed, living 729 times more pleasantly, and the tyrant more painfully by this same interval.

Or if someone starts from the other end and measures the gap between the king and the tyrant in terms of true pleasure, they will find that, when the calculations are done, the king lives 729 times more pleasantly, while the tyrant suffers 729 times more painfully by that same measure.

What a wonderful calculation! And how enormous is the distance which separates the just from the unjust in regard to pleasure and pain!

What an amazing calculation! And how vast is the distance that separates the righteous from the unrighteous when it comes to pleasure and pain!

Yet a true calculation, I said, and a number which nearly concerns human life, if human beings are concerned with days and nights and months and years. (729 NEARLY equals the number of days and nights in the year.)

Yet a real calculation, I said, and a number that is closely related to human life, if people care about days and nights and months and years. (729 is about the number of days and nights in a year.)

Yes, he said, human life is certainly concerned with them.

Yes, he said, human life definitely involves them.

Then if the good and just man be thus superior in pleasure to the evil and unjust, his superiority will be infinitely greater in propriety of life and in beauty and virtue?

Then if the good and fair person experiences more pleasure than the bad and unfair one, their advantage will be immensely greater in how they live, as well as in beauty and virtue?

Immeasurably greater.

Infinitely greater.

Well, I said, and now having arrived at this stage of the argument, we may revert to the words which brought us hither: Was not some one saying that injustice was a gain to the perfectly unjust who was reputed to be just?

Well, I said, and now that we've reached this point in the discussion, we can go back to the words that brought us here: Wasn't someone saying that being unjust is a benefit to the completely unjust person who is thought to be just?

Yes, that was said.

Yeah, that was said.

Now then, having determined the power and quality of justice and injustice, let us have a little conversation with him.

Now that we’ve figured out the power and nature of justice and injustice, let’s have a quick chat with him.

What shall we say to him?

What should we say to him?

Let us make an image of the soul, that he may have his own words presented before his eyes.

Let’s create an image of the soul so he can see his own words right in front of him.

Of what sort?

What kind?

An ideal image of the soul, like the composite creations of ancient mythology, such as the Chimera or Scylla or Cerberus, and there are many others in which two or more different natures are said to grow into one.

An ideal image of the soul, like the mixed beings from ancient mythology, such as the Chimera, Scylla, or Cerberus, and many others where two or more different natures are said to come together as one.

There are said of have been such unions.

There are said to have been such unions.

Then do you now model the form of a multitudinous, many-headed monster, having a ring of heads of all manner of beasts, tame and wild, which he is able to generate and metamorphose at will.

Then do you now take the shape of a many-headed monster, with a circle of all sorts of beast heads, both tame and wild, that you can create and change at will?

You suppose marvellous powers in the artist; but, as language is more pliable than wax or any similar substance, let there be such a model as you propose.

You assume that the artist has amazing abilities; however, since language is more flexible than wax or any similar material, let there be a model like the one you suggest.

Suppose now that you make a second form as of a lion, and a third of a man, the second smaller than the first, and the third smaller than the second.

Suppose now that you create a second form that looks like a lion, and a third that looks like a man, with the second one being smaller than the first, and the third one being smaller than the second.

That, he said, is an easier task; and I have made them as you say.

That, he said, is an easier task, and I've done them just like you said.

And now join them, and let the three grow into one.

And now come together, and let the three become one.

That has been accomplished.

That’s done.

Next fashion the outside of them into a single image, as of a man, so that he who is not able to look within, and sees only the outer hull, may believe the beast to be a single human creature.

Next, shape the outside of them into a single image, like that of a man, so that anyone who cannot look inside and only sees the outer shell may believe the beast to be a single human being.

I have done so, he said.

I have done that, he said.

And now, to him who maintains that it is profitable for the human creature to be unjust, and unprofitable to be just, let us reply that, if he be right, it is profitable for this creature to feast the multitudinous monster and strengthen the lion and the lion-like qualities, but to starve and weaken the man, who is consequently liable to be dragged about at the mercy of either of the other two; and he is not to attempt to familiarize or harmonize them with one another—he ought rather to suffer them to fight and bite and devour one another.

And now, to the person who argues that it’s beneficial for humans to act unjustly and harmful to be just, let’s respond that if they’re correct, then it’s advantageous for this being to feed the many-headed monster and empower the lion and its fierce qualities, but to neglect and weaken the human, who will then be at the mercy of either of the other two; and they shouldn’t try to make them get along or coexist—rather, they should let them fight and attack each other.

Certainly, he said; that is what the approver of injustice says.

Sure, he said; that's exactly what someone who supports injustice says.

To him the supporter of justice makes answer that he should ever so speak and act as to give the man within him in some way or other the most complete mastery over the entire human creature. He should watch over the many-headed monster like a good husbandman, fostering and cultivating the gentle qualities, and preventing the wild ones from growing; he should be making the lion-heart his ally, and in common care of them all should be uniting the several parts with one another and with himself.

To him, the advocate for justice responds that he should always speak and act in a way that allows the inner self to fully control the entire person. He should tend to the many-headed beast like a good farmer, nurturing the gentle qualities and preventing the wild ones from taking over; he should make the brave heart his ally, and in caring for all parts, unite them with each other and with himself.

Yes, he said, that is quite what the maintainer of justice say.

Yes, he said, that’s exactly what the person in charge of justice says.

And so from every point of view, whether of pleasure, honour, or advantage, the approver of justice is right and speaks the truth, and the disapprover is wrong and false and ignorant?

And so from every perspective, whether it’s about pleasure, honor, or benefit, someone who supports justice is correct and speaks the truth, while someone who opposes it is wrong, dishonest, and uninformed?

Yes, from every point of view.

Yes, from all angles.

Come, now, and let us gently reason with the unjust, who is not intentionally in error. ‘Sweet Sir,’ we will say to him, ‘what think you of things esteemed noble and ignoble? Is not the noble that which subjects the beast to the man, or rather to the god in man; and the ignoble that which subjects the man to the beast?’ He can hardly avoid saying Yes—can he now?

Come on, let's talk calmly with the unjust person who isn't deliberately wrong. "Dear Sir," we'll say to him, "what do you think about things that are considered noble and ignoble? Isn’t the noble what makes the beast serve the man, or even the god within the man; and isn’t the ignoble what makes the man serve the beast?" He can hardly avoid saying Yes—can he?

Not if he has any regard for my opinion.

Not if he values my opinion.

But, if he agree so far, we may ask him to answer another question: ‘Then how would a man profit if he received gold and silver on the condition that he was to enslave the noblest part of him to the worst? Who can imagine that a man who sold his son or daughter into slavery for money, especially if he sold them into the hands of fierce and evil men, would be the gainer, however large might be the sum which he received? And will any one say that he is not a miserable caitiff who remorselessly sells his own divine being to that which is most godless and detestable? Eriphyle took the necklace as the price of her husband’s life, but he is taking a bribe in order to compass a worse ruin.’

But if he agrees to this point, we can ask him another question: ‘How does a person benefit if they receive gold and silver on the condition that they enslave their noblest qualities to their worst ones? Who can think a person who sells their son or daughter into slavery for money, especially to cruel and evil people, would actually gain anything, no matter how large the sum they received? And can anyone argue that someone who heartlessly sells their own divine nature to what is most godless and repulsive is not a wretched person? Eriphyle took the necklace as payment for her husband’s life, but he is accepting a bribe to bring about an even worse disaster.’

Yes, said Glaucon, far worse—I will answer for him.

Yes, Glaucon said, much worse—I’ll take the blame for him.

Has not the intemperate been censured of old, because in him the huge multiform monster is allowed to be too much at large?

Hasn't the excessive person been criticized for a long time because they let the big, chaotic monster go too wild?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And men are blamed for pride and bad temper when the lion and serpent element in them disproportionately grows and gains strength?

And men are criticized for their pride and bad temper when the lion and serpent traits in them grow stronger and more pronounced?

Yes.

Yes.

And luxury and softness are blamed, because they relax and weaken this same creature, and make a coward of him?

And luxury and comfort are criticized because they relax and weaken this person, turning him into a coward?

Very true.

So true.

And is not a man reproached for flattery and meanness who subordinates the spirited animal to the unruly monster, and, for the sake of money, of which he can never have enough, habituates him in the days of his youth to be trampled in the mire, and from being a lion to become a monkey?

And is a man not criticized for being insincere and petty when he puts the noble creature beneath the chaotic beast, and, for the sake of money—which he can never get enough of—teaches it in its youth to be stuck in the dirt, turning from a lion into a monkey?

True, he said.

That’s true, he said.

And why are mean employments and manual arts a reproach? Only because they imply a natural weakness of the higher principle; the individual is unable to control the creatures within him, but has to court them, and his great study is how to flatter them.

And why are lowly jobs and manual trades seen as shameful? Only because they suggest a natural weakness of the higher self; the individual can't keep the inner urges in check, but has to appease them, and their main focus is on how to please them.

Such appears to be the reason.

Such seems to be the reason.

And therefore, being desirous of placing him under a rule like that of the best, we say that he ought to be the servant of the best, in whom the Divine rules; not, as Thrasymachus supposed, to the injury of the servant, but because every one had better be ruled by divine wisdom dwelling within him; or, if this be impossible, then by an external authority, in order that we may be all, as far as possible, under the same government, friends and equals.

And so, wanting to put him under a leadership like that of the best, we believe he should serve the best person, who is guided by divine wisdom; not, as Thrasymachus thought, to harm the servant, but because it’s better for everyone to be guided by the divine wisdom within themselves; or, if that’s not possible, then by an outside authority, so that we can all, as much as possible, be under the same leadership, as friends and equals.

True, he said.

True, he stated.

And this is clearly seen to be the intention of the law, which is the ally of the whole city; and is seen also in the authority which we exercise over children, and the refusal to let them be free until we have established in them a principle analogous to the constitution of a state, and by cultivation of this higher element have set up in their hearts a guardian and ruler like our own, and when this is done they may go their ways.

And this is clearly the intent of the law, which supports the entire city; it's also evident in the power we hold over children, and the decision to not allow them freedom until we've instilled in them a principle similar to a state’s constitution. By nurturing this higher aspect, we've established a guardian and ruler in their hearts, just like our own, and once that's accomplished, they may go on their way.

Yes, he said, the purpose of the law is manifest.

Yes, he said, the purpose of the law is clear.

From what point of view, then, and on what ground can we say that a man is profited by injustice or intemperance or other baseness, which will make him a worse man, even though he acquire money or power by his wickedness?

From what perspective, then, and on what basis can we say that a person benefits from injustice or excess or any other wrongdoing, which will make him a worse person, even if he gains money or power through his immoral actions?

From no point of view at all.

From no viewpoint at all.

What shall he profit, if his injustice be undetected and unpunished? He who is undetected only gets worse, whereas he who is detected and punished has the brutal part of his nature silenced and humanized; the gentler element in him is liberated, and his whole soul is perfected and ennobled by the acquirement of justice and temperance and wisdom, more than the body ever is by receiving gifts of beauty, strength and health, in proportion as the soul is more honourable than the body.

What benefit is there to him if his wrongdoing goes unnoticed and unpunished? The one who remains undetected only becomes worse, while the one who is caught and punished has the cruel part of his nature silenced and humanized; the kinder part of him is freed, and his entire soul is improved and elevated by gaining justice, self-control, and wisdom, far more than the body ever is by receiving gifts of beauty, strength, and health, since the soul is far more noble than the body.

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

To this nobler purpose the man of understanding will devote the energies of his life. And in the first place, he will honour studies which impress these qualities on his soul and will disregard others?

To this more meaningful goal, a wise person will dedicate their life's energy. First of all, they will value studies that instill these qualities in their soul and will ignore the rest.

Clearly, he said.

He said clearly.

In the next place, he will regulate his bodily habit and training, and so far will he be from yielding to brutal and irrational pleasures, that he will regard even health as quite a secondary matter; his first object will be not that he may be fair or strong or well, unless he is likely thereby to gain temperance, but he will always desire so to attemper the body as to preserve the harmony of the soul?

In addition, he will manage his physical condition and training, and he will be so far from giving in to crude and thoughtless pleasures that he will consider even health to be a lower priority; his main goal won't be to be attractive, strong, or healthy unless it helps him develop self-control. Instead, he will always aim to shape his body in a way that maintains the harmony of his soul.

Certainly he will, if he has true music in him.

Certainly he will, if he has real music in him.

And in the acquisition of wealth there is a principle of order and harmony which he will also observe; he will not allow himself to be dazzled by the foolish applause of the world, and heap up riches to his own infinite harm?

And in gaining wealth, there is a principle of order and harmony that he will recognize; he won't let himself be blinded by the foolish praise of the world and gather riches to his own great detriment.

Certainly not, he said.

Definitely not, he said.

He will look at the city which is within him, and take heed that no disorder occur in it, such as might arise either from superfluity or from want; and upon this principle he will regulate his property and gain or spend according to his means.

He will look at the city inside him and make sure that nothing gets out of order, whether from having too much or too little; based on this idea, he will manage his assets and either earn or spend according to what he can afford.

Very true.

So true.

And, for the same reason, he will gladly accept and enjoy such honours as he deems likely to make him a better man; but those, whether private or public, which are likely to disorder his life, he will avoid?

And for the same reason, he'll gladly accept and appreciate any honors he believes will help him become a better person; however, he will avoid those, whether they are personal or public, that might disrupt his life.

Then, if that is his motive, he will not be a statesman.

Then, if that's his motivation, he won't be a statesman.

By the dog of Egypt, he will! in the city which is his own he certainly will, though in the land of his birth perhaps not, unless he have a divine call.

By the dog of Egypt, he will! In the city that's his own, he definitely will, although in the land where he was born, maybe not, unless he has a divine calling.

I understand; you mean that he will be a ruler in the city of which we are the founders, and which exists in idea only; for I do not believe that there is such an one anywhere on earth?

I get it; you mean that he will be a leader in the city that we are creating, which only exists in concept; because I don't think there's such a place anywhere on earth.

In heaven, I replied, there is laid up a pattern of it, methinks, which he who desires may behold, and beholding, may set his own house in order. But whether such an one exists, or ever will exist in fact, is no matter; for he will live after the manner of that city, having nothing to do with any other.

In heaven, I responded, there seems to be a blueprint of it that anyone who wishes can see, and by seeing, can get their own life in order. But whether such a thing really exists or will ever exist is irrelevant; because they will live according to that city, without concern for any other.

I think so, he said.

I think so, he replied.

BOOK X.

Of the many excellences which I perceive in the order of our State, there is none which upon reflection pleases me better than the rule about poetry.

Of all the great things I see in our government's structure, none makes me happier upon reflection than the rule regarding poetry.

To what do you refer?

What are you referring to?

To the rejection of imitative poetry, which certainly ought not to be received; as I see far more clearly now that the parts of the soul have been distinguished.

To the dismissal of imitative poetry, which should definitely not be accepted; as I understand much more clearly now that the different parts of the soul have been identified.

What do you mean?

What do you mean by that?

Speaking in confidence, for I should not like to have my words repeated to the tragedians and the rest of the imitative tribe—but I do not mind saying to you, that all poetical imitations are ruinous to the understanding of the hearers, and that the knowledge of their true nature is the only antidote to them.

Speaking frankly, as I wouldn't want my words repeated to the playwrights and others in the same field—but I don’t mind sharing with you that all poetic imitations can be damaging to the understanding of the audience, and that knowing their true nature is the only remedy for that.

Explain the purport of your remark.

Explain what you meant by your comment.

Well, I will tell you, although I have always from my earliest youth had an awe and love of Homer, which even now makes the words falter on my lips, for he is the great captain and teacher of the whole of that charming tragic company; but a man is not to be reverenced more than the truth, and therefore I will speak out.

Well, I’ll tell you, even though I’ve always had a deep respect and love for Homer since I was young, which still makes me hesitate to speak his name, because he’s the great leader and teacher of that wonderful tragic group; but a person shouldn’t be valued more than the truth, so I’m going to be straightforward.

Very good, he said.

Sounds great, he said.

Listen to me then, or rather, answer me.

Listen to me, or actually, just respond to me.

Put your question.

Ask your question.

Can you tell me what imitation is? for I really do not know.

Can you explain what imitation is? Because I honestly don't know.

A likely thing, then, that I should know.

A reasonable thing, then, that I should know.

Why not? for the duller eye may often see a thing sooner than the keener.

Why not? Because a less sharp eye can often notice something before a sharper one.

Very true, he said; but in your presence, even if I had any faint notion, I could not muster courage to utter it. Will you enquire yourself?

Very true, he said; but in your presence, even if I had any faint idea, I couldn't find the courage to say it. Will you ask yourself?

Well then, shall we begin the enquiry in our usual manner: Whenever a number of individuals have a common name, we assume them to have also a corresponding idea or form:—do you understand me?

Well then, should we start the inquiry like we usually do? Whenever a group of people share a common name, we assume they also have a shared idea or concept. Do you get what I'm saying?

I do.

I do.

Let us take any common instance; there are beds and tables in the world—plenty of them, are there not?

Let’s take a typical example; there are beds and tables in the world—there are plenty of them, right?

Yes.

Yes.

But there are only two ideas or forms of them—one the idea of a bed, the other of a table.

But there are only two ideas or forms of them—one is the idea of a bed, the other is the idea of a table.

True.

True.

And the maker of either of them makes a bed or he makes a table for our use, in accordance with the idea—that is our way of speaking in this and similar instances—but no artificer makes the ideas themselves: how could he?

And the creator of either of them builds a bed or a table for us to use, in line with the idea—that’s how we express it in this and similar cases—but no craftsman creates the ideas themselves: how could he?

Impossible.

Not possible.

And there is another artist,—I should like to know what you would say of him.

And there’s another artist—I’d love to hear what you think of him.

Who is he?

Who's he?

One who is the maker of all the works of all other workmen.

One who creates all the works of all other workers.

What an extraordinary man!

What an amazing guy!

Wait a little, and there will be more reason for your saying so. For this is he who is able to make not only vessels of every kind, but plants and animals, himself and all other things—the earth and heaven, and the things which are in heaven or under the earth; he makes the gods also.

Wait a bit, and there will be more reason for you to say that. For this is the one who can create not just every kind of vessel, but also plants and animals, himself and everything else—the earth and sky, and everything in heaven or beneath the earth; he creates the gods too.

He must be a wizard and no mistake.

He has to be a wizard, no doubt about it.

Oh! you are incredulous, are you? Do you mean that there is no such maker or creator, or that in one sense there might be a maker of all these things but in another not? Do you see that there is a way in which you could make them all yourself?

Oh! You don’t believe it, do you? Are you saying that there’s no creator at all, or that in one way there could be a creator of everything, but in another way, there might not be? Do you realize that there’s a way you could create all of this yourself?

What way?

Which way?

An easy way enough; or rather, there are many ways in which the feat might be quickly and easily accomplished, none quicker than that of turning a mirror round and round—you would soon enough make the sun and the heavens, and the earth and yourself, and other animals and plants, and all the other things of which we were just now speaking, in the mirror.

There are plenty of easy ways to do this; or more accurately, there are many methods to achieve this quickly and simply, none faster than just spinning a mirror. You would quickly see the sun, the sky, the Earth, yourself, other animals, plants, and everything else we were just talking about in the mirror.

Yes, he said; but they would be appearances only.

Yes, he said; but they would just be appearances.

Very good, I said, you are coming to the point now. And the painter too is, as I conceive, just such another—a creator of appearances, is he not?

Very good, I said, you're getting to the point now. And the painter is also, as I see it, just like that—a creator of appearances, right?

Of course.

Sure thing.

But then I suppose you will say that what he creates is untrue. And yet there is a sense in which the painter also creates a bed?

But then I guess you'll say that what he creates isn't real. And yet there's a way in which the painter also creates a bed?

Yes, he said, but not a real bed.

Yes, he said, but not an actual bed.

And what of the maker of the bed? were you not saying that he too makes, not the idea which, according to our view, is the essence of the bed, but only a particular bed?

And what about the bed maker? Weren't you saying that he also creates, not the concept which, in our opinion, is the essence of the bed, but just a specific bed?

Yes, I did.

Yes, I did.

Then if he does not make that which exists he cannot make true existence, but only some semblance of existence; and if any one were to say that the work of the maker of the bed, or of any other workman, has real existence, he could hardly be supposed to be speaking the truth.

Then if he doesn't create what truly exists, he can't create real existence, only a imitation of it; and if someone were to claim that the work of the bed maker, or any other worker, has real existence, it would be hard to believe they are speaking the truth.

At any rate, he replied, philosophers would say that he was not speaking the truth.

At any rate, he replied, philosophers would argue that he wasn't telling the truth.

No wonder, then, that his work too is an indistinct expression of truth.

No surprise, then, that his work is also a vague reflection of truth.

No wonder.

No surprise.

Suppose now that by the light of the examples just offered we enquire who this imitator is?

Suppose now that based on the examples we've just discussed, we ask who this imitator is?

If you please.

If you could.

Well then, here are three beds: one existing in nature, which is made by God, as I think that we may say—for no one else can be the maker?

Well then, here are three beds: one found in nature, created by God, as I believe we can say—no one else can be its creator?

No.

No.

There is another which is the work of the carpenter?

There’s another one that’s the carpenter's work?

Yes.

Yes.

And the work of the painter is a third?

And is the painter's work a third?

Yes.

Yep.

Beds, then, are of three kinds, and there are three artists who superintend them: God, the maker of the bed, and the painter?

Beds, then, come in three types, and there are three artists who oversee them: God, the creator of the bed, and the painter?

Yes, there are three of them.

Yes, there are three of them.

God, whether from choice or from necessity, made one bed in nature and one only; two or more such ideal beds neither ever have been nor ever will be made by God.

God, either by choice or necessity, created only one perfect bed in nature; no two or more such ideal beds have ever existed or will ever exist.

Why is that?

Why is that?

Because even if He had made but two, a third would still appear behind them which both of them would have for their idea, and that would be the ideal bed and not the two others.

Because even if He had made only two, a third would still show up behind them, which both of them would consider as their idea, and that would be the ideal bed, not the other two.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

God knew this, and He desired to be the real maker of a real bed, not a particular maker of a particular bed, and therefore He created a bed which is essentially and by nature one only.

God understood this, and He wanted to be the true creator of a real bed, not just the creator of a specific bed, so He made a bed that is fundamentally and inherently one.

So we believe.

So we think.

Shall we, then, speak of Him as the natural author or maker of the bed?

Shall we, then, refer to Him as the natural creator or maker of the bed?

Yes, he replied; inasmuch as by the natural process of creation He is the author of this and of all other things.

Yes, he replied; because through the natural process of creation, He is the author of this and of all other things.

And what shall we say of the carpenter—is not he also the maker of the bed?

And what can we say about the carpenter—aren’t they also the one who makes the bed?

Yes.

Yes.

But would you call the painter a creator and maker?

But would you consider the painter a creator and a maker?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Yet if he is not the maker, what is he in relation to the bed?

Yet if he is not the one who made it, what is his connection to the bed?

I think, he said, that we may fairly designate him as the imitator of that which the others make.

"I think," he said, "that we can accurately call him the imitator of what others create."

Good, I said; then you call him who is third in the descent from nature an imitator?

Good, I said; so you call the one who is third down from nature an imitator?

Certainly, he said.

Sure, he said.

And the tragic poet is an imitator, and therefore, like all other imitators, he is thrice removed from the king and from the truth?

And the tragic poet is an imitator, and so, like all other imitators, he is three steps removed from the king and from the truth?

That appears to be so.

Looks like it.

Then about the imitator we are agreed. And what about the painter?—I would like to know whether he may be thought to imitate that which originally exists in nature, or only the creations of artists?

Then we all agree about the imitator. But what about the painter?—I want to know if he can be seen as imitating what originally exists in nature or just the creations of other artists?

The latter.

The latter.

As they are or as they appear? you have still to determine this.

As they are or how they seem? You still need to figure this out.

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I mean, that you may look at a bed from different points of view, obliquely or directly or from any other point of view, and the bed will appear different, but there is no difference in reality. And the same of all things.

I mean, you can look at a bed from different angles—obliquely, directly, or from any other perspective—and it will look different, but nothing has actually changed in reality. The same goes for everything.

Yes, he said, the difference is only apparent.

Yes, he said, the difference is only superficial.

Now let me ask you another question: Which is the art of painting designed to be—an imitation of things as they are, or as they appear—of appearance or of reality?

Now let me ask you another question: Is the art of painting meant to be an imitation of things as they are, or as they appear—of appearance or of reality?

Of appearance.

On appearance.

Then the imitator, I said, is a long way off the truth, and can do all things because he lightly touches on a small part of them, and that part an image. For example: A painter will paint a cobbler, carpenter, or any other artist, though he knows nothing of their arts; and, if he is a good artist, he may deceive children or simple persons, when he shows them his picture of a carpenter from a distance, and they will fancy that they are looking at a real carpenter.

Then the imitator, I said, is far from the truth and can do all things because he only lightly touches on a small part of them, and that part is just an image. For example: A painter can paint a cobbler, carpenter, or any other craftsman, even though he doesn’t understand their trades; and if he is a skilled artist, he might fool children or naive people when he shows them his picture of a carpenter from a distance, making them think they are actually looking at a real carpenter.

Certainly.

Absolutely.

And whenever any one informs us that he has found a man who knows all the arts, and all things else that anybody knows, and every single thing with a higher degree of accuracy than any other man—whoever tells us this, I think that we can only imagine him to be a simple creature who is likely to have been deceived by some wizard or actor whom he met, and whom he thought all-knowing, because he himself was unable to analyse the nature of knowledge and ignorance and imitation.

And whenever someone tells us they've met a person who knows all the arts, everything anyone knows, and every detail better than anyone else—whoever says this, I think we can only picture them as a naive individual who has probably been tricked by some magician or performer they encountered, and who they believed was all-knowing, simply because they couldn't understand the difference between knowledge, ignorance, and imitation.

Most true.

Most definitely.

And so, when we hear persons saying that the tragedians, and Homer, who is at their head, know all the arts and all things human, virtue as well as vice, and divine things too, for that the good poet cannot compose well unless he knows his subject, and that he who has not this knowledge can never be a poet, we ought to consider whether here also there may not be a similar illusion. Perhaps they may have come across imitators and been deceived by them; they may not have remembered when they saw their works that these were but imitations thrice removed from the truth, and could easily be made without any knowledge of the truth, because they are appearances only and not realities? Or, after all, they may be in the right, and poets do really know the things about which they seem to the many to speak so well?

And so, when we hear people saying that the tragedians, and Homer, who leads them, understand all the arts and everything human, both virtue and vice, as well as divine matters, because a good poet can't write well unless they know their subject, and that someone without this knowledge can never be a poet, we should think about whether there might be a similar misconception here. They might have encountered imitators and been misled by them; they may not have realized when they saw their works that these were just imitations far removed from the truth, and could easily be created without any genuine understanding of the truth, because they are just appearances and not actual realities. Or, perhaps they are correct, and poets truly do understand the subjects they seem to speak about so well?

The question, he said, should by all means be considered.

The question, he said, should definitely be considered.

Now do you suppose that if a person were able to make the original as well as the image, he would seriously devote himself to the image-making branch? Would he allow imitation to be the ruling principle of his life, as if he had nothing higher in him?

Now do you think that if someone could create both the original and the copy, they would really focus on making copies? Would they let imitation be the main focus of their life, as if they had nothing greater inside them?

I should say not.

I wouldn't say so.

The real artist, who knew what he was imitating, would be interested in realities and not in imitations; and would desire to leave as memorials of himself works many and fair; and, instead of being the author of encomiums, he would prefer to be the theme of them.

The true artist, who understands what they are imitating, would focus on realities rather than imitations; and would want to leave behind many beautiful works as a legacy; and instead of being the one who writes praises, they would rather be the subject of them.

Yes, he said, that would be to him a source of much greater honour and profit.

Yes, he said, that would be a much greater honor and benefit to him.

Then, I said, we must put a question to Homer; not about medicine, or any of the arts to which his poems only incidentally refer: we are not going to ask him, or any other poet, whether he has cured patients like Asclepius, or left behind him a school of medicine such as the Asclepiads were, or whether he only talks about medicine and other arts at second-hand; but we have a right to know respecting military tactics, politics, education, which are the chiefest and noblest subjects of his poems, and we may fairly ask him about them. ‘Friend Homer,’ then we say to him, ‘if you are only in the second remove from truth in what you say of virtue, and not in the third—not an image maker or imitator—and if you are able to discern what pursuits make men better or worse in private or public life, tell us what State was ever better governed by your help? The good order of Lacedaemon is due to Lycurgus, and many other cities great and small have been similarly benefited by others; but who says that you have been a good legislator to them and have done them any good? Italy and Sicily boast of Charondas, and there is Solon who is renowned among us; but what city has anything to say about you?’ Is there any city which he might name?

Then, I said, we should ask Homer a question; not about medicine or any of the arts he only touches on in his poems: we’re not going to ask him, or any other poet, if he has healed patients like Asclepius, or if he left behind a school of medicine like the Asclepiads, or whether he just talks about medicine and other arts second-hand; but we have a right to know about military tactics, politics, and education, which are the most important and noble subjects of his poems, and it’s fair for us to ask him about those. ‘Friend Homer,’ we then say to him, ‘if what you say about virtue is only slightly removed from the truth, and not further—not just a mimic or an imitator—and if you can see what activities make people better or worse in private or public life, tell us which State has ever been better governed thanks to your influence? The proper governance of Lacedaemon comes from Lycurgus, and many other cities, big and small, have been similarly helped by others; but who claims that you were a good legislator for them and did any good for them? Italy and Sicily take pride in Charondas, and there’s Solon, who is celebrated among us; but what city can say anything about you?’ Is there any city he might name?

I think not, said Glaucon; not even the Homerids themselves pretend that he was a legislator.

I don’t think so, said Glaucon; not even the Homerids themselves claim that he was a lawmaker.

Well, but is there any war on record which was carried on successfully by him, or aided by his counsels, when he was alive?

Well, is there any documented war that he successfully led or contributed to with his advice while he was alive?

There is not.

There isn’t any.

Or is there any invention of his, applicable to the arts or to human life, such as Thales the Milesian or Anacharsis the Scythian, and other ingenious men have conceived, which is attributed to him?

Or is there any invention of his, relevant to the arts or human life, like those conceived by Thales the Milesian or Anacharsis the Scythian, and other clever individuals, that is credited to him?

There is absolutely nothing of the kind.

There's nothing like that.

But, if Homer never did any public service, was he privately a guide or teacher of any? Had he in his lifetime friends who loved to associate with him, and who handed down to posterity an Homeric way of life, such as was established by Pythagoras who was so greatly beloved for his wisdom, and whose followers are to this day quite celebrated for the order which was named after him?

But if Homer never did any public service, was he a personal guide or teacher to anyone? Did he have friends in his lifetime who enjoyed spending time with him and who passed down a way of life similar to that of Pythagoras, who was highly esteemed for his wisdom, and whose followers are still well-known today for the order named after him?

Nothing of the kind is recorded of him. For surely, Socrates, Creophylus, the companion of Homer, that child of flesh, whose name always makes us laugh, might be more justly ridiculed for his stupidity, if, as is said, Homer was greatly neglected by him and others in his own day when he was alive?

Nothing like that is recorded about him. After all, Socrates, Creophylus, Homer's friend, that guy whose name always makes us laugh, could be more fairly mocked for his foolishness, especially since, as people say, Homer was largely ignored by him and others during his lifetime.

Yes, I replied, that is the tradition. But can you imagine, Glaucon, that if Homer had really been able to educate and improve mankind—if he had possessed knowledge and not been a mere imitator—can you imagine, I say, that he would not have had many followers, and been honoured and loved by them? Protagoras of Abdera, and Prodicus of Ceos, and a host of others, have only to whisper to their contemporaries: ‘You will never be able to manage either your own house or your own State until you appoint us to be your ministers of education’—and this ingenious device of theirs has such an effect in making men love them that their companions all but carry them about on their shoulders. And is it conceivable that the contemporaries of Homer, or again of Hesiod, would have allowed either of them to go about as rhapsodists, if they had really been able to make mankind virtuous? Would they not have been as unwilling to part with them as with gold, and have compelled them to stay at home with them? Or, if the master would not stay, then the disciples would have followed him about everywhere, until they had got education enough?

Yes, I replied, that's the tradition. But can you imagine, Glaucon, that if Homer had truly been able to educate and uplift humanity—if he had real knowledge and wasn't just a copycat—can you imagine, I say, that he wouldn't have had many followers who honored and loved him? Protagoras of Abdera, and Prodicus of Ceos, along with many others, just need to suggest to their peers: ‘You won’t be able to manage your own home or govern your State until you choose us as your education ministers’—and this clever tactic of theirs makes people adore them so much that their friends almost carry them around on their shoulders. Is it possible that Homer's contemporaries, or even Hesiod's, would have let either of them roam around as rhapsodists if they could truly make people virtuous? Wouldn’t they have been just as reluctant to give them up as to part with gold, forcing them to stay close? Or, if the master wouldn’t stay, wouldn’t the students have followed him everywhere until they gained enough knowledge?

Yes, Socrates, that, I think, is quite true.

Yes, Socrates, I believe that's absolutely true.

Then must we not infer that all these poetical individuals, beginning with Homer, are only imitators; they copy images of virtue and the like, but the truth they never reach? The poet is like a painter who, as we have already observed, will make a likeness of a cobbler though he understands nothing of cobbling; and his picture is good enough for those who know no more than he does, and judge only by colours and figures.

Then shouldn't we conclude that all these poetic figures, starting with Homer, are just imitators? They reproduce images of virtue and similar concepts, but they never truly capture the essence of truth. The poet is like a painter who, as we’ve already pointed out, can create a portrayal of a cobbler even though he knows nothing about cobbling. His painting is sufficient for those who know just as little as he does and judge only by colors and shapes.

Quite so.

Totally.

In like manner the poet with his words and phrases may be said to lay on the colours of the several arts, himself understanding their nature only enough to imitate them; and other people, who are as ignorant as he is, and judge only from his words, imagine that if he speaks of cobbling, or of military tactics, or of anything else, in metre and harmony and rhythm, he speaks very well—such is the sweet influence which melody and rhythm by nature have. And I think that you must have observed again and again what a poor appearance the tales of poets make when stripped of the colours which music puts upon them, and recited in simple prose.

Similarly, the poet uses words and phrases to paint with the colors of various arts, only understanding them well enough to mimic them; and others, just as clueless as he is, judge him solely based on his words. They think that if he talks about shoemaking, military strategy, or anything else, with meter, harmony, and rhythm, he’s expressing himself very well—such is the natural charm of melody and rhythm. I believe you must have noticed numerous times how unimpressive poets' stories seem when removed of the beauty that music adds and recited in plain prose.

Yes, he said.

Yes, he said.

They are like faces which were never really beautiful, but only blooming; and now the bloom of youth has passed away from them?

They are like faces that were never truly beautiful, just lively; and now the vibrancy of youth has faded from them.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Here is another point: The imitator or maker of the image knows nothing of true existence; he knows appearances only. Am I not right?

Here’s another point: The person who copies or creates the image knows nothing of true existence; they only understand appearances. Am I wrong?

Yes.

Yes.

Then let us have a clear understanding, and not be satisfied with half an explanation.

Then let’s make sure we understand each other clearly and not settle for just a partial explanation.

Proceed.

Understood. Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.

Of the painter we say that he will paint reins, and he will paint a bit?

Of the painter, we say that he will paint the reins, and he will paint a bit?

Yes.

Yes.

And the worker in leather and brass will make them?

And the person working with leather and brass will make them?

Certainly.

Of course.

But does the painter know the right form of the bit and reins? Nay, hardly even the workers in brass and leather who make them; only the horseman who knows how to use them—he knows their right form.

But does the painter understand the correct shape of the bit and reins? No, not even the craftsmen in brass and leather who create them do; only the horseman who knows how to use them—he understands their proper form.

Most true.

Totally true.

And may we not say the same of all things?

And can’t we say the same about everything?

What?

Huh?

That there are three arts which are concerned with all things: one which uses, another which makes, a third which imitates them?

That there are three arts that deal with everything: one that uses, another that makes, and a third that imitates them?

Yes.

Yes.

And the excellence or beauty or truth of every structure, animate or inanimate, and of every action of man, is relative to the use for which nature or the artist has intended them.

And the quality, beauty, or truth of every structure, whether alive or not, and of every action by humans, depends on the purpose for which nature or the artist designed them.

True.

True.

Then the user of them must have the greatest experience of them, and he must indicate to the maker the good or bad qualities which develop themselves in use; for example, the flute-player will tell the flute-maker which of his flutes is satisfactory to the performer; he will tell him how he ought to make them, and the other will attend to his instructions?

Then the person using them must have the best experience with them, and they should let the maker know about the positive or negative qualities that come up during use. For instance, the flute player will tell the flute maker which of his flutes works well for the performer; he will explain how they should be made, and the maker will follow his guidance.

Of course.

Sure thing.

The one knows and therefore speaks with authority about the goodness and badness of flutes, while the other, confiding in him, will do what he is told by him?

The one knows and therefore speaks with confidence about the quality of flutes, while the other, trusting him, will follow his instructions?

True.

True.

The instrument is the same, but about the excellence or badness of it the maker will only attain to a correct belief; and this he will gain from him who knows, by talking to him and being compelled to hear what he has to say, whereas the user will have knowledge?

The instrument is the same, but regarding its quality, the maker can only arrive at a correct understanding; and he will do this by conversing with someone knowledgeable and being required to listen to their insights, while the user will possess knowledge?

True.

True.

But will the imitator have either? Will he know from use whether or no his drawing is correct or beautiful? or will he have right opinion from being compelled to associate with another who knows and gives him instructions about what he should draw?

But will the imitator have either one? Will he know from experience whether his drawing is accurate or beautiful? Or will he have a correct opinion just because he's forced to spend time with someone who knows and instructs him on what he should draw?

Neither.

Neither.

Then he will no more have true opinion than he will have knowledge about the goodness or badness of his imitations?

Then he will have no more real opinion than he will have understanding of the goodness or badness of his imitations?

I suppose not.

I guess not.

The imitative artist will be in a brilliant state of intelligence about his own creations?

The imitative artist will be highly aware of his own creations.

Nay, very much the reverse.

No, quite the opposite.

And still he will go on imitating without knowing what makes a thing good or bad, and may be expected therefore to imitate only that which appears to be good to the ignorant multitude?

And still, he will keep imitating without really understanding what makes something good or bad, so we can expect him to only copy what seems good to the clueless crowd.

Just so.

Exactly.

Thus far then we are pretty well agreed that the imitator has no knowledge worth mentioning of what he imitates. Imitation is only a kind of play or sport, and the tragic poets, whether they write in Iambic or in Heroic verse, are imitators in the highest degree?

So far, we mostly agree that the imitator doesn’t have much meaningful knowledge of what they’re imitating. Imitation is just a kind of play or sport, and tragic poets, whether they write in Iambic or Heroic verse, are the highest level of imitators.

Very true.

So true.

And now tell me, I conjure you, has not imitation been shown by us to be concerned with that which is thrice removed from the truth?

And now tell me, I urge you, hasn’t our imitation been shown to be related to something that is three steps away from the truth?

Certainly.

Sure.

And what is the faculty in man to which imitation is addressed?

And what part of a person is targeted by imitation?

What do you mean?

What do you mean?

I will explain: The body which is large when seen near, appears small when seen at a distance?

I will explain: A large object looks small when viewed from far away.

True.

True.

And the same object appears straight when looked at out of the water, and crooked when in the water; and the concave becomes convex, owing to the illusion about colours to which the sight is liable. Thus every sort of confusion is revealed within us; and this is that weakness of the human mind on which the art of conjuring and of deceiving by light and shadow and other ingenious devices imposes, having an effect upon us like magic.

The same object looks straight when viewed out of the water but appears crooked when in the water; and a concave surface seems convex due to the visual illusions caused by colors. This reveals the various kinds of confusion within us, highlighting the fragility of the human mind, which magic tricks and illusions created by light, shadow, and other clever methods exploit, affecting us like sorcery.

True.

True.

And the arts of measuring and numbering and weighing come to the rescue of the human understanding—there is the beauty of them—and the apparent greater or less, or more or heavier, no longer have the mastery over us, but give way before calculation and measure and weight?

And the skills of measuring, counting, and weighing help us understand better—there's beauty in that—and the concepts of greater or lesser, or heavier or lighter, no longer control us but instead yield to calculation, measurement, and weight?

Most true.

Most definitely.

And this, surely, must be the work of the calculating and rational principle in the soul?

And this has to be the result of the logical and reasoning part of the soul, right?

To be sure.

For sure.

And when this principle measures and certifies that some things are equal, or that some are greater or less than others, there occurs an apparent contradiction?

And when this principle measures and confirms that some things are equal, or that some are greater or less than others, is there an apparent contradiction?

True.

True.

But were we not saying that such a contradiction is impossible—the same faculty cannot have contrary opinions at the same time about the same thing?

But weren't we saying that such a contradiction is impossible—the same ability can't have contradictory opinions at the same time about the same thing?

Very true.

So true.

Then that part of the soul which has an opinion contrary to measure is not the same with that which has an opinion in accordance with measure?

Then that part of the soul that has an opinion different from the measure isn't the same as the part that has an opinion that aligns with the measure?

True.

True.

And the better part of the soul is likely to be that which trusts to measure and calculation?

And the best part of the soul is probably the one that relies on measurement and calculation?

Certainly.

Of course.

And that which is opposed to them is one of the inferior principles of the soul?

And what goes against them is one of the lesser aspects of the soul?

No doubt.

Definitely.

This was the conclusion at which I was seeking to arrive when I said that painting or drawing, and imitation in general, when doing their own proper work, are far removed from truth, and the companions and friends and associates of a principle within us which is equally removed from reason, and that they have no true or healthy aim.

This was the conclusion I was trying to reach when I said that painting or drawing, and imitation in general, when they are doing their actual work, are far from the truth, and they are companions and friends of a principle within us that is also far from reason, and that they have no genuine or healthy purpose.

Exactly.

Exactly.

The imitative art is an inferior who marries an inferior, and has inferior offspring.

Imitative art is like an inferior person marrying another inferior person and having inferior kids.

Very true.

So true.

And is this confined to the sight only, or does it extend to the hearing also, relating in fact to what we term poetry?

And is this limited to just sight, or does it also include hearing, relating in fact to what we call poetry?

Probably the same would be true of poetry.

Probably the same is true for poetry.

Do not rely, I said, on a probability derived from the analogy of painting; but let us examine further and see whether the faculty with which poetical imitation is concerned is good or bad.

Do not depend, I said, on a guess based on the comparison to painting; instead, let's look deeper and determine whether the ability related to poetic imitation is positive or negative.

By all means.

Go for it.

We may state the question thus:—Imitation imitates the actions of men, whether voluntary or involuntary, on which, as they imagine, a good or bad result has ensued, and they rejoice or sorrow accordingly. Is there anything more?

We can put the question like this:—Imitation copies the actions of people, whether they are intentional or not, based on the belief that these actions have led to a good or bad outcome, and they feel happy or sad in response. Is there anything else?

No, there is nothing else.

No, there's nothing else.

But in all this variety of circumstances is the man at unity with himself—or rather, as in the instance of sight there was confusion and opposition in his opinions about the same things, so here also is there not strife and inconsistency in his life? Though I need hardly raise the question again, for I remember that all this has been already admitted; and the soul has been acknowledged by us to be full of these and ten thousand similar oppositions occurring at the same moment?

But in all this variety of circumstances, is the person at peace with themselves—or rather, just like with sight, where there was confusion and conflict in their opinions about the same things, is there not also struggle and inconsistency in their life? Although I barely need to ask again, since I recall that all this has already been acknowledged; and we've agreed that the soul is indeed filled with these and countless similar conflicts happening all at once?

And we were right, he said.

And we were right, he said.

Yes, I said, thus far we were right; but there was an omission which must now be supplied.

Yes, I said, up to this point we were correct; but there’s a detail that needs to be added now.

What was the omission?

What was left out?

Were we not saying that a good man, who has the misfortune to lose his son or anything else which is most dear to him, will bear the loss with more equanimity than another?

Were we not saying that a good man, who unfortunately loses his son or anything else that is most dear to him, will handle the loss with more calmness than others?

Yes.

Yep.

But will he have no sorrow, or shall we say that although he cannot help sorrowing, he will moderate his sorrow?

But will he have no sadness, or should we say that even though he can't avoid feeling sad, he will keep his sadness in check?

The latter, he said, is the truer statement.

The latter, he said, is the more accurate statement.

Tell me: will he be more likely to struggle and hold out against his sorrow when he is seen by his equals, or when he is alone?

Tell me: will he be more likely to fight against his sorrow when he's with others like him, or when he's by himself?

It will make a great difference whether he is seen or not.

It will make a big difference whether he's seen or not.

When he is by himself he will not mind saying or doing many things which he would be ashamed of any one hearing or seeing him do?

When he’s alone, he doesn’t mind saying or doing a lot of things that he would be embarrassed if anyone heard or saw him do.

True.

True.

There is a principle of law and reason in him which bids him resist, as well as a feeling of his misfortune which is forcing him to indulge his sorrow?

There’s a principle of law and reason in him that urges him to resist, as well as a sense of his misfortune that’s pushing him to embrace his sorrow.

True.

True.

But when a man is drawn in two opposite directions, to and from the same object, this, as we affirm, necessarily implies two distinct principles in him?

But when a man is pulled in two opposite directions, towards and away from the same thing, this, as we assert, necessarily suggests two separate principles within him?

Certainly.

Sure.

One of them is ready to follow the guidance of the law?

Is one of them ready to follow the law's guidance?

How do you mean?

What do you mean?

The law would say that to be patient under suffering is best, and that we should not give way to impatience, as there is no knowing whether such things are good or evil; and nothing is gained by impatience; also, because no human thing is of serious importance, and grief stands in the way of that which at the moment is most required.

The law suggests that being patient during tough times is the best approach, and that we shouldn't let impatience take over, since we can't really tell if things are good or bad; nothing comes from being impatient. Additionally, because nothing in life is truly significant, grief can block what we need right now.

What is most required? he asked.

What do you need the most? he asked.

That we should take counsel about what has happened, and when the dice have been thrown order our affairs in the way which reason deems best; not, like children who have had a fall, keeping hold of the part struck and wasting time in setting up a howl, but always accustoming the soul forthwith to apply a remedy, raising up that which is sickly and fallen, banishing the cry of sorrow by the healing art.

We should discuss what has happened, and once the dice have been cast, we should manage our affairs in the way that makes the most sense; not like kids who fall and just cling to the hurt part, wasting time complaining, but always training ourselves to quickly seek a solution, lifting up what is weak and down, and pushing away the cries of sadness through healing.

Yes, he said, that is the true way of meeting the attacks of fortune.

Yes, he said, that is the right way to handle the challenges of life.

Yes, I said; and the higher principle is ready to follow this suggestion of reason?

Yes, I said; and the higher principle is prepared to accept this suggestion of reason?

Clearly.

Clearly.

And the other principle, which inclines us to recollection of our troubles and to lamentation, and can never have enough of them, we may call irrational, useless, and cowardly?

And the other principle, which leads us to remember our troubles and to complain about them, and can never get enough of them, we might call irrational, pointless, and cowardly?

Indeed, we may.

Sure, we can.

And does not the latter—I mean the rebellious principle—furnish a great variety of materials for imitation? Whereas the wise and calm temperament, being always nearly equable, is not easy to imitate or to appreciate when imitated, especially at a public festival when a promiscuous crowd is assembled in a theatre. For the feeling represented is one to which they are strangers.

And doesn’t the latter—I mean the rebellious principle—provide a wide range of materials for imitation? On the other hand, the wise and calm temperament, which is usually stable, is hard to imitate or appreciate when imitated, especially at a public festival when a mixed crowd gathers in a theater. The emotion being portrayed is one they are unfamiliar with.

Certainly.

Sure.

Then the imitative poet who aims at being popular is not by nature made, nor is his art intended, to please or to affect the rational principle in the soul; but he will prefer the passionate and fitful temper, which is easily imitated?

Then the poet who tries to be popular isn't naturally inclined that way, nor is his art meant to please or impact the rational part of the soul; instead, he will lean towards the passionate and unpredictable temperament, which is easier to imitate.

Clearly.

Clearly.

And now we may fairly take him and place him by the side of the painter, for he is like him in two ways: first, inasmuch as his creations have an inferior degree of truth—in this, I say, he is like him; and he is also like him in being concerned with an inferior part of the soul; and therefore we shall be right in refusing to admit him into a well-ordered State, because he awakens and nourishes and strengthens the feelings and impairs the reason. As in a city when the evil are permitted to have authority and the good are put out of the way, so in the soul of man, as we maintain, the imitative poet implants an evil constitution, for he indulges the irrational nature which has no discernment of greater and less, but thinks the same thing at one time great and at another small—he is a manufacturer of images and is very far removed from the truth.

And now we can fairly compare him to the painter, as he resembles him in two ways: first, because his creations have a lesser degree of truth—this makes him similar; and he also shares the trait of focusing on a lower part of the soul. Therefore, we are justified in excluding him from a well-ordered State, as he stirs up, feeds, and strengthens emotions while weakening reason. Just like in a city where the corrupt are allowed to hold power and the virtuous are sidelined, in the human soul, as we argue, the imitative poet establishes a harmful structure. He caters to the irrational part, which cannot discern between what is greater or lesser and often views the same thing as both important and trivial—he produces mere images and is far from the truth.

Exactly.

Exactly.

But we have not yet brought forward the heaviest count in our accusation:—the power which poetry has of harming even the good (and there are very few who are not harmed), is surely an awful thing?

But we haven't yet mentioned the worst part of our accusation: the ability of poetry to harm even those who are good (and there are very few who aren't affected), is surely a terrible thing?

Yes, certainly, if the effect is what you say.

Yes, definitely, if the outcome is what you say.

Hear and judge: The best of us, as I conceive, when we listen to a passage of Homer, or one of the tragedians, in which he represents some pitiful hero who is drawling out his sorrows in a long oration, or weeping, and smiting his breast—the best of us, you know, delight in giving way to sympathy, and are in raptures at the excellence of the poet who stirs our feelings most.

Hear and judge: The best of us, as I see it, when we listen to a passage from Homer or one of the tragedians, where he portrays some unfortunate hero who is lamenting his sorrows in a long speech, or crying, and hitting his chest—the best of us, you know, love to let our sympathy flow and are thrilled by the skill of the poet who moves our emotions the most.

Yes, of course I know.

Yep, I know.

But when any sorrow of our own happens to us, then you may observe that we pride ourselves on the opposite quality—we would fain be quiet and patient; this is the manly part, and the other which delighted us in the recitation is now deemed to be the part of a woman.

But when we experience our own sorrow, you might notice that we take pride in the opposite quality—we want to be calm and patient; this is the strong response, while the one that entertained us in the recitation is now considered more feminine.

Very true, he said.

So true, he said.

Now can we be right in praising and admiring another who is doing that which any one of us would abominate and be ashamed of in his own person?

Now can we really be right in praising and admiring someone who does something that any of us would hate and be embarrassed about doing ourselves?

No, he said, that is certainly not reasonable.

No, he said, that's definitely not reasonable.

Nay, I said, quite reasonable from one point of view.

No, I said, that's quite reasonable from one perspective.

What point of view?

What perspective?

If you consider, I said, that when in misfortune we feel a natural hunger and desire to relieve our sorrow by weeping and lamentation, and that this feeling which is kept under control in our own calamities is satisfied and delighted by the poets;—the better nature in each of us, not having been sufficiently trained by reason or habit, allows the sympathetic element to break loose because the sorrow is another’s; and the spectator fancies that there can be no disgrace to himself in praising and pitying any one who comes telling him what a good man he is, and making a fuss about his troubles; he thinks that the pleasure is a gain, and why should he be supercilious and lose this and the poem too? Few persons ever reflect, as I should imagine, that from the evil of other men something of evil is communicated to themselves. And so the feeling of sorrow which has gathered strength at the sight of the misfortunes of others is with difficulty repressed in our own.

If you think about it, I said, when we go through tough times, we naturally feel a hunger to ease our sadness by crying and lamenting. This feeling, which we often manage to control during our own struggles, finds satisfaction and joy in the work of poets. The better side of us, not fully trained by reason or habit, lets the empathetic part escape because someone else's sorrow feels distant; the observer believes there’s no shame in praising and feeling sorry for someone who comes to them expressing how good a person they are and making a big deal out of their troubles. They think that enjoying this feeling is a win, so why should they act superior and miss out on this and the poem as well? Few people stop to consider, as I would guess, that from the misfortunes of others, a bit of that negativity is transferred to themselves. Thus, the sorrow that has built up from seeing others' hardships is hard to keep in check during our own.

How very true!

So true!

And does not the same hold also of the ridiculous? There are jests which you would be ashamed to make yourself, and yet on the comic stage, or indeed in private, when you hear them, you are greatly amused by them, and are not at all disgusted at their unseemliness;—the case of pity is repeated;—there is a principle in human nature which is disposed to raise a laugh, and this which you once restrained by reason, because you were afraid of being thought a buffoon, is now let out again; and having stimulated the risible faculty at the theatre, you are betrayed unconsciously to yourself into playing the comic poet at home.

Doesn't the same apply to the ridiculous? There are jokes that you'd be embarrassed to make yourself, yet on stage or even in private, when you hear them, you find them really funny and aren't at all put off by their inappropriateness. It's similar to the case of pity; there's a part of human nature that tends to provoke laughter, and what you previously held back out of concern for looking foolish is now set free. After being stirred to laughter at the theater, you unwittingly find yourself playing the comic poet at home.

Quite true, he said.

So true, he said.

And the same may be said of lust and anger and all the other affections, of desire and pain and pleasure, which are held to be inseparable from every action—in all of them poetry feeds and waters the passions instead of drying them up; she lets them rule, although they ought to be controlled, if mankind are ever to increase in happiness and virtue.

And the same goes for lust, anger, and all other feelings like desire, pain, and pleasure, which are seen as unavoidable in every action—poetry nurtures and stimulates these passions rather than suppressing them; it allows them to take charge, even though they should be managed if humans are ever to grow in happiness and virtue.

I cannot deny it.

I can't deny it.

Therefore, Glaucon, I said, whenever you meet with any of the eulogists of Homer declaring that he has been the educator of Hellas, and that he is profitable for education and for the ordering of human things, and that you should take him up again and again and get to know him and regulate your whole life according to him, we may love and honour those who say these things—they are excellent people, as far as their lights extend; and we are ready to acknowledge that Homer is the greatest of poets and first of tragedy writers; but we must remain firm in our conviction that hymns to the gods and praises of famous men are the only poetry which ought to be admitted into our State. For if you go beyond this and allow the honeyed muse to enter, either in epic or lyric verse, not law and the reason of mankind, which by common consent have ever been deemed best, but pleasure and pain will be the rulers in our State.

So, Glaucon, I said, whenever you encounter anyone praising Homer and claiming he has shaped Greece, saying that he’s beneficial for education and for organizing human affairs, and that you should keep revisiting his work to understand him better and adjust your entire life to align with him, we can appreciate and respect those people—they’re genuinely good people, as far as they know; and we’re willing to admit that Homer is the greatest poet and the first of the tragic writers. However, we must stick to our belief that hymns to the gods and tributes to notable individuals are the only types of poetry that should be allowed in our society. Because if you allow anything more than this and let in that sweet muse, whether in epic or lyrical form, then it won't be law and the rationality of humanity, which everyone has always considered best, but rather pleasure and pain that will dominate our state.

That is most true, he said.

That's totally true, he said.

And now since we have reverted to the subject of poetry, let this our defence serve to show the reasonableness of our former judgment in sending away out of our State an art having the tendencies which we have described; for reason constrained us. But that she may not impute to us any harshness or want of politeness, let us tell her that there is an ancient quarrel between philosophy and poetry; of which there are many proofs, such as the saying of ‘the yelping hound howling at her lord,’ or of one ‘mighty in the vain talk of fools,’ and ‘the mob of sages circumventing Zeus,’ and the ‘subtle thinkers who are beggars after all’; and there are innumerable other signs of ancient enmity between them. Notwithstanding this, let us assure our sweet friend and the sister arts of imitation, that if she will only prove her title to exist in a well-ordered State we shall be delighted to receive her—we are very conscious of her charms; but we may not on that account betray the truth. I dare say, Glaucon, that you are as much charmed by her as I am, especially when she appears in Homer?

And now that we've gone back to talking about poetry, let this defense show why we previously decided to banish an art form with the tendencies we've described. We had good reason to do so. But to avoid any impression of harshness or rudeness, let's point out that there has been a longstanding conflict between philosophy and poetry. There are many examples of this, like the saying about 'the yelping hound howling at her lord,' or 'those powerful in the foolish talk of others,' and 'the crowd of wise men outsmarting Zeus,' along with countless other signs of their ancient rivalry. Still, let's reassure our dear friend and the sister arts of imitation that if she can prove her worth in a well-ordered State, we would be happy to welcome her—we’re well aware of her allure. But we cannot compromise the truth because of that. I bet, Glaucon, you're as captivated by her as I am, especially when she shines in Homer?

Yes, indeed, I am greatly charmed.

Yes, I am really charmed.

Shall I propose, then, that she be allowed to return from exile, but upon this condition only—that she make a defence of herself in lyrical or some other metre?

Shall I suggest that she be allowed to come back from exile, but only if she defends herself in verse or some other form of poetry?

Certainly.

Sure.

And we may further grant to those of her defenders who are lovers of poetry and yet not poets the permission to speak in prose on her behalf: let them show not only that she is pleasant but also useful to States and to human life, and we will listen in a kindly spirit; for if this can be proved we shall surely be the gainers—I mean, if there is a use in poetry as well as a delight?

And we may also allow those who defend her and love poetry, though they aren’t poets themselves, to speak for her in prose: let them demonstrate not just that she is enjoyable, but also beneficial to societies and human life, and we will listen with an open mind; because if this can be shown, we will definitely benefit—I mean, is there not a purpose in poetry alongside its pleasure?

Certainly, he said, we shall be the gainers.

Certainly, he said, we will benefit.

If her defence fails, then, my dear friend, like other persons who are enamoured of something, but put a restraint upon themselves when they think their desires are opposed to their interests, so too must we after the manner of lovers give her up, though not without a struggle. We too are inspired by that love of poetry which the education of noble States has implanted in us, and therefore we would have her appear at her best and truest; but so long as she is unable to make good her defence, this argument of ours shall be a charm to us, which we will repeat to ourselves while we listen to her strains; that we may not fall away into the childish love of her which captivates the many. At all events we are well aware that poetry being such as we have described is not to be regarded seriously as attaining to the truth; and he who listens to her, fearing for the safety of the city which is within him, should be on his guard against her seductions and make our words his law.

If her defense fails, then, my dear friend, like others who are passionate about something but hold back when they think their desires conflict with their interests, we too must, like lovers, let her go, though not without effort. We are also driven by that love of poetry that the upbringing of great societies has instilled in us, so we want her to shine in her best and truest form; but as long as she can't defend herself, our argument will be a kind of mantra for us, something we’ll recite while enjoying her melodies, so we don’t get lost in the naive love that ensnares many. In any case, we know that poetry, as we've described it, shouldn't be taken seriously as a way to reach the truth; and anyone who listens to her, concerned for the well-being of the city within themselves, should be careful of her charms and make our words their guide.

Yes, he said, I quite agree with you.

Yes, he said, I completely agree with you.

Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, for great is the issue at stake, greater than appears, whether a man is to be good or bad. And what will any one be profited if under the influence of honour or money or power, aye, or under the excitement of poetry, he neglect justice and virtue?

Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, because the stakes are high, even higher than they seem, about whether a person will be good or bad. And what benefit is there for someone if, swayed by honor, money, or power—or even the thrill of poetry—they ignore justice and virtue?

Yes, he said; I have been convinced by the argument, as I believe that any one else would have been.

Yes, he said; I have been convinced by the argument, as I believe that anyone else would have been.

And yet no mention has been made of the greatest prizes and rewards which await virtue.

And yet, no one has talked about the greatest prizes and rewards that come with being virtuous.

What, are there any greater still? If there are, they must be of an inconceivable greatness.

What, are there any greater ones? If there are, they must be unimaginably great.

Why, I said, what was ever great in a short time? The whole period of three score years and ten is surely but a little thing in comparison with eternity?

Why, I said, what ever has been achieved in such a short time? The whole span of seventy years is really just a blink compared to eternity?

Say rather ‘nothing,’ he replied.

"Say 'nothing,'” he replied.

And should an immortal being seriously think of this little space rather than of the whole?

And should an immortal being really focus on this tiny space instead of the big picture?

Of the whole, certainly. But why do you ask?

Of course. But why are you asking?

Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is immortal and imperishable?

Are you not aware, I said, that the human soul is immortal and cannot be destroyed?

He looked at me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are you really prepared to maintain this?

He looked at me in shock and said, "No way! Are you really going to stick to this?"

Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you too—there is no difficulty in proving it.

Yes, I said, I should be, and you should be too—it's easy to prove that.

I see a great difficulty; but I should like to hear you state this argument of which you make so light.

I see a significant challenge; however, I would like to hear you explain this argument that you downplay.

Listen then.

Listen up.

I am attending.

I'm attending.

There is a thing which you call good and another which you call evil?

There’s something you call good and something else you call evil?

Yes, he replied.

Yeah, he replied.

Would you agree with me in thinking that the corrupting and destroying element is the evil, and the saving and improving element the good?

Would you agree with me that the corrupting and destructive force is evil, while the saving and uplifting force is good?

Yes.

Yeah.

And you admit that every thing has a good and also an evil; as ophthalmia is the evil of the eyes and disease of the whole body; as mildew is of corn, and rot of timber, or rust of copper and iron: in everything, or in almost everything, there is an inherent evil and disease?

And you acknowledge that everything has both good and bad; like how ophthalmia is the bad for the eyes and affects the whole body; how mildew harms corn, and rot damages timber, or rust affects copper and iron: in everything, or almost everything, there is an inherent flaw or problem?

Yes, he said.

Yep, he said.

And anything which is infected by any of these evils is made evil, and at last wholly dissolves and dies?

And anything that is affected by any of these evils becomes evil and ultimately completely breaks down and dies?

True.

True.

The vice and evil which is inherent in each is the destruction of each; and if this does not destroy them there is nothing else that will; for good certainly will not destroy them, nor again, that which is neither good nor evil.

The flaws and evil that exist in each person lead to their downfall; and if this doesn't lead to their destruction, nothing else will; because good definitely won't bring about their end, nor will anything that is neither good nor evil.

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

If, then, we find any nature which having this inherent corruption cannot be dissolved or destroyed, we may be certain that of such a nature there is no destruction?

If we find any nature that has this inherent corruption and cannot be dissolved or destroyed, we can be certain that such a nature does not face destruction.

That may be assumed.

That can be assumed.

Well, I said, and is there no evil which corrupts the soul?

Well, I said, isn't there any evil that corrupts the soul?

Yes, he said, there are all the evils which we were just now passing in review: unrighteousness, intemperance, cowardice, ignorance.

Yes, he said, there are all the problems we were just talking about: unfairness, excessive drinking, fearfulness, ignorance.

But does any of these dissolve or destroy her?—and here do not let us fall into the error of supposing that the unjust and foolish man, when he is detected, perishes through his own injustice, which is an evil of the soul. Take the analogy of the body: The evil of the body is a disease which wastes and reduces and annihilates the body; and all the things of which we were just now speaking come to annihilation through their own corruption attaching to them and inhering in them and so destroying them. Is not this true?

But do any of these things break or ruin her?—and let’s not make the mistake of thinking that when an unjust or foolish person gets caught, they suffer because of their own wrongdoing, which is a flaw of the soul. Think of it this way: The flaw of the body is a disease that weakens, diminishes, and ultimately destroys it; and everything we just talked about comes to an end due to the corruption that sticks to them and exists within them, leading to their destruction. Isn’t this true?

Yes.

Yes.

Consider the soul in like manner. Does the injustice or other evil which exists in the soul waste and consume her? Do they by attaching to the soul and inhering in her at last bring her to death, and so separate her from the body?

Consider the soul in a similar way. Does the injustice or other evil present in the soul wear her down and consume her? Do these attach to the soul and become part of her, ultimately leading her to death and separating her from the body?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

And yet, I said, it is unreasonable to suppose that anything can perish from without through affection of external evil which could not be destroyed from within by a corruption of its own?

And yet, I said, it's unreasonable to think that anything can be harmed by external evil if it can't be destroyed from within by its own corruption?

It is, he replied.

It is, he said.

Consider, I said, Glaucon, that even the badness of food, whether staleness, decomposition, or any other bad quality, when confined to the actual food, is not supposed to destroy the body; although, if the badness of food communicates corruption to the body, then we should say that the body has been destroyed by a corruption of itself, which is disease, brought on by this; but that the body, being one thing, can be destroyed by the badness of food, which is another, and which does not engender any natural infection—this we shall absolutely deny?

Think about this, Glaucon: even poor-quality food, whether it's stale, rotten, or has any other issue, doesn't necessarily harm the body if it stays separate from it. However, if that poor-quality food does spread its badness to the body, then we can say that the body has suffered damage from its own corruption, which we call disease, caused by that bad food. But we will definitely reject the idea that the body, being a single entity, can be harmed by the badness of food, which is a different thing and doesn't naturally cause any kind of infection.

Very true.

So true.

And, on the same principle, unless some bodily evil can produce an evil of the soul, we must not suppose that the soul, which is one thing, can be dissolved by any merely external evil which belongs to another?

And, based on the same idea, unless a physical harm can cause a harm to the soul, we shouldn't assume that the soul, which is a separate entity, can be destroyed by any external harm that pertains to something else?

Yes, he said, there is reason in that.

Yes, he said, that makes sense.

Either, then, let us refute this conclusion, or, while it remains unrefuted, let us never say that fever, or any other disease, or the knife put to the throat, or even the cutting up of the whole body into the minutest pieces, can destroy the soul, until she herself is proved to become more unholy or unrighteous in consequence of these things being done to the body; but that the soul, or anything else if not destroyed by an internal evil, can be destroyed by an external one, is not to be affirmed by any man.

Either let us disprove this conclusion, or, while it remains unchallenged, let us never claim that fever, or any other illness, or a knife at the throat, or even chopping up the entire body into the tiniest pieces, can kill the soul, until it is shown that the soul becomes more unholy or unjust as a result of these actions on the body. It cannot be claimed by anyone that the soul, or anything else, if not harmed by an internal evil, can be destroyed by an external one.

And surely, he replied, no one will ever prove that the souls of men become more unjust in consequence of death.

And surely, he replied, no one will ever prove that people’s souls become more unjust because of death.

But if some one who would rather not admit the immortality of the soul boldly denies this, and says that the dying do really become more evil and unrighteous, then, if the speaker is right, I suppose that injustice, like disease, must be assumed to be fatal to the unjust, and that those who take this disorder die by the natural inherent power of destruction which evil has, and which kills them sooner or later, but in quite another way from that in which, at present, the wicked receive death at the hands of others as the penalty of their deeds?

But if someone who doesn't want to accept the immortality of the soul outright denies it and claims that the dying actually become more evil and unrighteous, then, if that person is correct, I guess that injustice, like a disease, must be seen as deadly to the unjust. It means that those who suffer this affliction end up dying from the inherent destructive power that evil holds, which ultimately kills them eventually, but in a very different way than how the wicked currently face death at the hands of others as punishment for their actions.

Nay, he said, in that case injustice, if fatal to the unjust, will not be so very terrible to him, for he will be delivered from evil. But I rather suspect the opposite to be the truth, and that injustice which, if it have the power, will murder others, keeps the murderer alive—aye, and well awake too; so far removed is her dwelling-place from being a house of death.

No, he said, in that case, if injustice is deadly to the unjust, it won’t be that bad for him because he’ll be free from evil. But I have a feeling the opposite is true, and that injustice, if it has the power, will kill others while keeping the murderer alive—yes, and very alert too; so far away is her home from being a place of death.

True, I said; if the inherent natural vice or evil of the soul is unable to kill or destroy her, hardly will that which is appointed to be the destruction of some other body, destroy a soul or anything else except that of which it was appointed to be the destruction.

True, I said; if the natural flaws or evils of the soul can't kill or destroy it, then it's unlikely that something designed to harm another body will be able to harm a soul or anything else, except for what it was specifically meant to destroy.

Yes, that can hardly be.

Yeah, that's hard to believe.

But the soul which cannot be destroyed by an evil, whether inherent or external, must exist for ever, and if existing for ever, must be immortal?

But the soul that cannot be destroyed by evil, whether it's something built-in or external, must exist forever, and if it exists forever, it must be immortal?

Certainly.

Sure.

That is the conclusion, I said; and, if a true conclusion, then the souls must always be the same, for if none be destroyed they will not diminish in number. Neither will they increase, for the increase of the immortal natures must come from something mortal, and all things would thus end in immortality.

That’s the conclusion, I said; and if it’s a true conclusion, then souls must always be the same, because if none of them are destroyed, their numbers won’t decrease. They also won’t increase, because the growth of immortal beings must come from something mortal, and that would mean everything would eventually lead to immortality.

Very true.

So true.

But this we cannot believe—reason will not allow us—any more than we can believe the soul, in her truest nature, to be full of variety and difference and dissimilarity.

But we just can't believe this—our reason won't allow it—any more than we can believe that the soul, in its truest nature, is full of variety, difference, and dissimilarity.

What do you mean? he said.

What do you mean? he asked.

The soul, I said, being, as is now proven, immortal, must be the fairest of compositions and cannot be compounded of many elements?

The soul, I said, being, as is now proven, immortal, must be the fairest of compositions and cannot be made up of many elements?

Certainly not.

Definitely not.

Her immortality is demonstrated by the previous argument, and there are many other proofs; but to see her as she really is, not as we now behold her, marred by communion with the body and other miseries, you must contemplate her with the eye of reason, in her original purity; and then her beauty will be revealed, and justice and injustice and all the things which we have described will be manifested more clearly. Thus far, we have spoken the truth concerning her as she appears at present, but we must remember also that we have seen her only in a condition which may be compared to that of the sea-god Glaucus, whose original image can hardly be discerned because his natural members are broken off and crushed and damaged by the waves in all sorts of ways, and incrustations have grown over them of seaweed and shells and stones, so that he is more like some monster than he is to his own natural form. And the soul which we behold is in a similar condition, disfigured by ten thousand ills. But not there, Glaucon, not there must we look.

Her immortality is shown by the earlier argument, and there are plenty of other proofs; but to understand her true self—not just the way we currently see her, flawed by the body and other hardships—you need to look at her with the lens of reason, in her original purity. Only then will her beauty become clear, along with justice, injustice, and everything we've described. So far, we've spoken the truth about her as she appears now, but we should also remember that we've only seen her in a state that can be likened to the sea-god Glaucus, whose original form is barely recognizable because his natural features are broken, crushed, and damaged by the waves in various ways, and covered in seaweed, shells, and stones, making him look more like a monster than his natural self. The soul we see is in a similar situation, disfigured by countless troubles. But not there, Glaucon, not there should we look.

Where then?

Where to?

At her love of wisdom. Let us see whom she affects, and what society and converse she seeks in virtue of her near kindred with the immortal and eternal and divine; also how different she would become if wholly following this superior principle, and borne by a divine impulse out of the ocean in which she now is, and disengaged from the stones and shells and things of earth and rock which in wild variety spring up around her because she feeds upon earth, and is overgrown by the good things of this life as they are termed: then you would see her as she is, and know whether she have one shape only or many, or what her nature is. Of her affections and of the forms which she takes in this present life I think that we have now said enough.

At her love of wisdom. Let’s look at who she’s drawn to and what kind of company she seeks because of her close connection to the immortal, eternal, and divine; also, consider how different she would be if she completely embraced this higher principle, lifted by a divine urge out of the sea she currently inhabits, free from the stones, shells, and earthly things that arise around her because she nourishes herself on the earth and is surrounded by the good things of this life, as they call them: then you would see her for who she truly is, and understand whether she has one form or many, or what her true nature is. I think we’ve said enough about her feelings and the forms she takes in this present life.

True, he replied.

Sure, he said.

And thus, I said, we have fulfilled the conditions of the argument; we have not introduced the rewards and glories of justice, which, as you were saying, are to be found in Homer and Hesiod; but justice in her own nature has been shown to be best for the soul in her own nature. Let a man do what is just, whether he have the ring of Gyges or not, and even if in addition to the ring of Gyges he put on the helmet of Hades.

And so, I said, we've met the terms of the argument; we haven't brought in the rewards and praises of justice, which, as you mentioned, can be found in Homer and Hesiod; but justice, in its essence, has been demonstrated to be the best for the soul inherently. A person should act justly, whether they possess the ring of Gyges or not, and even if, along with the ring of Gyges, they wear the helmet of Hades.

Very true.

So true.

And now, Glaucon, there will be no harm in further enumerating how many and how great are the rewards which justice and the other virtues procure to the soul from gods and men, both in life and after death.

And now, Glaucon, it won't hurt to list the many and significant rewards that justice and other virtues bring to the soul from both gods and people, in life and after death.

Certainly not, he said.

Definitely not, he said.

Will you repay me, then, what you borrowed in the argument?

Will you pay me back what you borrowed in our discussion?

What did I borrow?

What did I lend?

The assumption that the just man should appear unjust and the unjust just: for you were of opinion that even if the true state of the case could not possibly escape the eyes of gods and men, still this admission ought to be made for the sake of the argument, in order that pure justice might be weighed against pure injustice. Do you remember?

The idea that a good person should seem bad and a bad person should seem good: you believed that even if the real situation couldn't possibly be hidden from the eyes of gods and people, we should still make this assumption for the sake of the argument, so that true justice could be compared to true injustice. Do you remember?

I should be much to blame if I had forgotten.

I would blame myself a lot if I had forgotten.

Then, as the cause is decided, I demand on behalf of justice that the estimation in which she is held by gods and men and which we acknowledge to be her due should now be restored to her by us; since she has been shown to confer reality, and not to deceive those who truly possess her, let what has been taken from her be given back, that so she may win that palm of appearance which is hers also, and which she gives to her own.

Then, as the decision has been made, I demand on behalf of justice that we restore the respect she deserves from both the gods and humanity; since she has proven to bring truth and not mislead those who genuinely embrace her, let’s return what has been taken from her, so that she may also attain the recognition that belongs to her, which she graciously bestows upon her own.

The demand, he said, is just.

The demand, he said, is fair.

In the first place, I said—and this is the first thing which you will have to give back—the nature both of the just and unjust is truly known to the gods.

First of all, I said—and this is the first thing you will have to return—the true nature of both the just and unjust is known to the gods.

Granted.

Granted.

And if they are both known to them, one must be the friend and the other the enemy of the gods, as we admitted from the beginning?

And if they know both, then one has to be the friend of the gods and the other the enemy, as we agreed from the start?

True.

True.

And the friend of the gods may be supposed to receive from them all things at their best, excepting only such evil as is the necessary consequence of former sins?

And the friend of the gods can be thought to receive all things in their best form from them, except for the evil that is the unavoidable result of past sins?

Certainly.

Sure thing.

Then this must be our notion of the just man, that even when he is in poverty or sickness, or any other seeming misfortune, all things will in the end work together for good to him in life and death: for the gods have a care of any one whose desire is to become just and to be like God, as far as man can attain the divine likeness, by the pursuit of virtue?

Then this must be our idea of the just person, that even when they face poverty, sickness, or any other apparent misfortune, everything will ultimately work out for their good in life and death: because the gods watch over anyone whose aim is to become just and to be like God, as much as a person can achieve the divine likeness through the pursuit of virtue?

Yes, he said; if he is like God he will surely not be neglected by him.

Yes, he said; if he is like God, he definitely won't be overlooked by him.

And of the unjust may not the opposite be supposed?

And can we not assume the opposite about the unjust?

Certainly.

Of course.

Such, then, are the palms of victory which the gods give the just?

Are these the victory palms that the gods give to the righteous?

That is my conviction.

That's my belief.

And what do they receive of men? Look at things as they really are, and you will see that the clever unjust are in the case of runners, who run well from the starting-place to the goal but not back again from the goal: they go off at a great pace, but in the end only look foolish, slinking away with their ears draggling on their shoulders, and without a crown; but the true runner comes to the finish and receives the prize and is crowned. And this is the way with the just; he who endures to the end of every action and occasion of his entire life has a good report and carries off the prize which men have to bestow.

And what do they get from people? If you look at things as they truly are, you'll notice that the clever but unjust are like runners who sprint from the starting line to the finish but never make it back. They take off at high speed, but in the end, they only look silly, sneaking away with their heads down and without a trophy; meanwhile, the true runner reaches the finish line, wins the prize, and gets crowned. This is how it is with the just; the one who perseveres through every action and situation in life earns a good reputation and takes home the reward that people have to offer.

True.

True.

And now you must allow me to repeat of the just the blessings which you were attributing to the fortunate unjust. I shall say of them, what you were saying of the others, that as they grow older, they become rulers in their own city if they care to be; they marry whom they like and give in marriage to whom they will; all that you said of the others I now say of these. And, on the other hand, of the unjust I say that the greater number, even though they escape in their youth, are found out at last and look foolish at the end of their course, and when they come to be old and miserable are flouted alike by stranger and citizen; they are beaten and then come those things unfit for ears polite, as you truly term them; they will be racked and have their eyes burned out, as you were saying. And you may suppose that I have repeated the remainder of your tale of horrors. But will you let me assume, without reciting them, that these things are true?

And now you have to let me repeat the blessings that you were attributing to the fortunate unjust. I'll say about them what you said about the others: as they get older, they become leaders in their own city if they want to; they marry who they want and arrange marriages for others as they please. Everything you said about the others, I now say about these. On the flip side, about the unjust, I say that most of them, even if they get away with it in their youth, get caught eventually and look foolish by the end of their lives. When they grow old and miserable, they're scorned by both strangers and citizens; they get beaten, and then come the despicable things unfit for polite company, as you aptly put it; they'll be tortured and have their eyes burned out, as you were saying. You might think I've repeated the rest of your tale of horrors. But can I assume that these things are true without going into detail?

Certainly, he said, what you say is true.

Certainly, he said, what you're saying is true.

These, then, are the prizes and rewards and gifts which are bestowed upon the just by gods and men in this present life, in addition to the other good things which justice of herself provides.

These are the prizes, rewards, and gifts that both gods and people give to the just in this life, along with the other benefits that justice itself offers.

Yes, he said; and they are fair and lasting.

Yes, he said; and they are beautiful and enduring.

And yet, I said, all these are as nothing either in number or greatness in comparison with those other recompenses which await both just and unjust after death. And you ought to hear them, and then both just and unjust will have received from us a full payment of the debt which the argument owes to them.

And yet, I said, all these are insignificant in both number and importance compared to the other rewards that await both the good and the bad after death. You should listen to them, and then both the good and the bad will have received a complete settlement of the debt that our argument owes to them.

Speak, he said; there are few things which I would more gladly hear.

"Go ahead and speak," he said, "there are few things I'd be more eager to hear."

Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. And on the twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this:—He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years—such being reckoned to be the length of man’s life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits asked another, ‘Where is Ardiaeus the Great?’ (Now this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was: ‘He comes not hither and will never come. And this,’ said he, ‘was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.’ And of all the many terrors which they had endured, he said that there was none like the terror which each of them felt at that moment, lest they should hear the voice; and when there was silence, one by one they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties and retributions, and there were blessings as great.

Well, I said, let me tell you a story; not one of the tales that Odysseus shares with the hero Alcinous, but still a story of a hero, Er the son of Armenius, who was born in Pamphylia. He was killed in battle, and ten days later, when the bodies of the dead had already started to decay, his body was found untouched by corruption and taken home for burial. On the twelfth day, as he lay on the funeral pyre, he came back to life and shared what he had experienced in the afterlife. He said that when his soul left his body, he journeyed with a large group and arrived at a mysterious place with two openings in the ground nearby, and across from them, two openings in the sky above. In between, there were judges seated who instructed the just to ascend through the heavenly path on the right after passing their judgment, while the unjust were sent down the lower path on the left; they bore the symbols of their actions strapped to their backs. He approached them, and they told him he would be the messenger to report back to humanity about the other world, urging him to listen and see everything he could in that place. He witnessed the souls leaving through either opening of heaven and earth once their sentences were passed; at the other two openings, other souls were arriving, some dusty and weary from their journey out of the earth, while others emerged from heaven, clean and bright. They appeared to have returned from a long trip, moving joyfully into a meadow where they set up camp as if for a festival; those who recognized each other embraced and chatted, with the souls from earth curiously asking about what was above and those from heaven inquiring about what lay below. They exchanged stories of their experiences, with those from below weeping and lamenting the hardships they had faced during their journey beneath the earth (which lasted a thousand years), while those from above shared tales of heavenly pleasures and visions of unimaginable beauty. The story, Glaucon, is too lengthy to recount in full; but the gist is this: He said that for every wrong done to someone, they faced punishment tenfold; or once every hundred years—considering a human life to last that long, thus paying their penalty ten times over in a thousand years. For instance, those who caused numerous deaths or betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or committed any other terrible acts, faced punishment for each offense ten times over, while the rewards for kindness and justice were equal in measure. I hardly need to reiterate what he said about young children dying almost as soon as they were born. As for piety and impiety toward gods and parents, and for murderers, there were far greater reprisals he described. He mentioned witnessing one spirit asking another, "Where is Ardiaeus the Great?" (Now, this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before Er and was the tyrant of a city in Pamphylia; he had killed his elderly father and older brother and was said to have committed many other heinous crimes.) The other spirit replied, "He does not come here and will never come. And this," he said, "was one of the horrifying sights we witnessed ourselves. We were at the entrance of the cavern, having completed all our experiences, preparing to ascend, when suddenly Ardiaeus appeared along with several others, most of whom were tyrants; there were also private individuals who had been major offenders: they believed they were about to return to the upper world, but the mouth of the cavern roared whenever any of these irredeemable sinners or those who hadn't been punished adequately attempted to ascend; then fierce-looking beings standing nearby seized them and took them away; Ardiaeus and others were bound hand and foot and thrown down, then whipped and dragged along the path like wool being carded on thorns, proclaiming their crimes to passersby and saying they were being taken away to be cast into hell." Of all the numerous horrors they endured, he claimed that none equaled the terror each felt at that moment, fearing they might hear the voice; and when silence fell, one by one, they ascended with great joy. These, Er said, were the penalties and retributions, along with equally great blessings.

Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried seven days, on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their journey, and, on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place where they could see from above a line of light, straight as a column, extending right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in colour resembling the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day’s journey brought them to the place, and there, in the midst of the light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above: for this light is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle of the universe, like the under-girders of a trireme. From these ends is extended the spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions turn. The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl is made partly of steel and also partly of other materials. Now the whorl is in form like the whorl used on earth; and the description of it implied that there is one large hollow whorl which is quite scooped out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and another, and another, and four others, making eight in all, like vessels which fit into one another; the whorls show their edges on the upper side, and on their lower side all together form one continuous whorl. This is pierced by the spindle, which is driven home through the centre of the eighth. The first and outermost whorl has the rim broadest, and the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the following proportions—the sixth is next to the first in size, the fourth next to the sixth; then comes the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is seventh, last and eighth comes the second. The largest (or fixed stars) is spangled, and the seventh (or sun) is brightest; the eighth (or moon) coloured by the reflected light of the seventh; the second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are in colour like one another, and yellower than the preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest light; the fourth (Mars) is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness second. Now the whole spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole revolves in one direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in the other, and of these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness are the seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness appeared to move according to the law of this reversed motion the fourth; the third appeared fourth and the second fifth. The spindle turns on the knees of Necessity; and on the upper surface of each circle is a siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone or note. The eight together form one harmony; and round about, at equal intervals, there is another band, three in number, each sitting upon her throne: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens—Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present, Atropos of the future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with one hand and then with the other.

Now when the spirits in the meadow had stayed for seven days, on the eighth, they had to continue their journey. On the fourth day after that, they came to a place where they could see a straight line of light, like a column, stretching across the sky and down to the earth. Its color resembled a rainbow but was brighter and purer. Another day's journey brought them to this place, and there, in the middle of the light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven being lowered from above. This light is the belt of heaven, holding together the circle of the universe like the supports of a trireme. From these ends extends the spindle of Necessity, on which all movements turn. The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl combines steel and other materials. The whorl is shaped like the ones used on earth; it consists of a large hollow whorl that’s scooped out, into which fits a smaller one, and another, and another, totaling eight, like nested vessels. The whorls show their edges on top, and on the bottom, they form one continuous whorl. This is pierced by the spindle, which goes through the center of the eighth. The outermost whorl is the widest, while the seven inner whorls are narrower: the sixth is next in size to the first, the fourth comes after the sixth; then the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is seventh, and lastly, the second is the smallest. The largest (the fixed stars) is dotted with sparks, and the seventh (the sun) is the brightest; the eighth (the moon) shines with reflected light from the seventh. The second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are similar in color and yellower than the previous ones; the third (Venus) has the whitest light; the fourth (Mars) is reddish; and the sixth (Jupiter) is second in whiteness. The entire spindle moves together; as the whole thing rotates in one direction, the seven inner circles turn slowly in the opposite direction, with the eighth being the fastest. Next in speed are the seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move as one; then the fourth comes third in speed, the third appears fourth, and the second is fifth. The spindle turns on the knees of Necessity; and on the upper part of each circle is a siren, who moves along with them, singing a single tone. Together, the eight create one harmony; surrounding them, at equal intervals, is another group of three sitting on thrones: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, dressed in white robes and wearing crowns, Lachesis, Clotho, and Atropos. They accompany the sirens' harmony with their voices—Lachesis sings of the past, Clotho of the present, and Atropos of the future. Clotho occasionally assists by touching the outer circle of the whorl or spindle with her right hand, while Atropos guides the inner ones with her left, and Lachesis alternates her hold on each, first with one hand and then with the other.

When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: ‘Hear the word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a new cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to you, but you will choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his destiny. Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he will have more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser—God is justified.’ When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained. Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man in every condition. And there were tyrannies among them, some lasting out the tyrant’s life, others which broke off in the middle and came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were lives of famous men, some who were famous for their form and beauty as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, for their birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the reverse of famous for the opposite qualities. And of women likewise; there was not, however, any definite character in them, because the soul, when choosing a new life, must of necessity become different. But there was every other quality, and the all mingled with one another, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and health; and there were mean states also. And here, my dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity. He should consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the natural and acquired gifts of the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined; he will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse; and so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life and after death. A man must take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the mean and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness.

When Er and the spirits arrived, their job was to go straight to Lachesis; but first, a prophet came and lined them up. He then took lots and samples of lives from Lachesis’s lap, and standing on a high platform, he said: ‘Listen to the word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, get ready for a new cycle of life and death. You won’t be assigned a genius; instead, you will choose your genius. Whoever draws the first lot gets to choose first, and the life they pick will be their destiny. Virtue is free, and a person will gain more or less of her based on how they honor or dishonor her; the choice is theirs—God is just.’ After the Interpreter finished speaking, he randomly scattered lots among them, and each one picked up the lot that was nearest to them, except for Er himself (he wasn’t allowed to). As each person took their lot, they noted the number they received. Then the Interpreter laid out the samples of lives on the ground before them, and there were many more lives than souls present, covering all kinds. There were lives of every animal and human in every situation. Some lives involved tyranny, with some lasting the lifetime of the tyrant, while others abruptly ended in poverty, exile, or begging; there were lives of notable people, some famous for their looks, beauty, strength, or achievements in games, while others were infamous for the opposite traits. The same went for women; however, there wasn’t any specific character because each soul, when choosing a new life, must inevitably change. But every other quality was present, all mixed together, along with elements of wealth, poverty, health, and disease; there were also mediocre states. And here, dear Glaucon, lies the greatest danger of our human condition; therefore, we must exercise utmost caution. Each of us should set aside all other knowledge and focus solely on one thing, hoping to find someone who can teach us to differentiate between good and evil, enabling us to always choose the better life whenever we can. We should consider how all these factors individually and collectively affect virtue; we need to understand the impact of beauty when paired with poverty or wealth in a specific soul, and recognize the good and bad outcomes of noble versus humble birth, private versus public standing, strength versus weakness, cleverness versus dullness, and all the natural and learned gifts of the soul, and how they work together. He will then examine the essence of the soul and, from analyzing all these qualities, will be able to decide which is better and which is worse; thus, he will choose, labeling the life that makes his soul more unjust as evil, and the one that makes it more just as good; everything else he will ignore. For we have seen and know that this is the best choice in both life and after death. A person must carry into the afterlife an unshakeable belief in truth and righteousness, so that he isn’t swayed by the temptation of wealth or other vices, lest he encounters tyrannies and similar wrongdoings, committing irreparable harm to others and suffering even worse himself; but he should know how to find a balance and avoid extremes as much as possible, not just in this life but in all that follows. For this is the path to happiness.

And according to the report of the messenger from the other world this was what the prophet said at the time: ‘Even for the last comer, if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first be careless, and let not the last despair.’ And when he had spoken, he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensuality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and did not at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to devour his own children. But when he had time to reflect, and saw what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a well-ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he had no philosophy. And it was true of others who were similarly overtaken, that the greater number of them came from heaven and therefore they had never been schooled by trial, whereas the pilgrims who came from earth having themselves suffered and seen others suffer, were not in a hurry to choose. And owing to this inexperience of theirs, and also because the lot was a chance, many of the souls exchanged a good destiny for an evil or an evil for a good. For if a man had always on his arrival in this world dedicated himself from the first to sound philosophy, and had been moderately fortunate in the number of the lot, he might, as the messenger reported, be happy here, and also his journey to another life and return to this, instead of being rough and underground, would be smooth and heavenly. Most curious, he said, was the spectacle—sad and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in most cases based on their experience of a previous life. There he saw the soul which had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of enmity to the race of women, hating to be born of a woman because they had been his murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras choosing the life of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like the swan and other musicians, wanting to be men. The soul which obtained the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax the son of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering the injustice which was done him in the judgment about the arms. The next was Agamemnon, who took the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax, he hated human nature by reason of his sufferings. About the middle came the lot of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an athlete, was unable to resist the temptation: and after her there followed the soul of Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the nature of a woman cunning in the arts; and far away among the last who chose, the soul of the jester Thersites was putting on the form of a monkey. There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the recollection of former toils had disenchanted him of ambition, and he went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which was lying about and had been neglected by everybody else; and when he saw it, he said that he would have done the same had his lot been first instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it. And not only did men pass into animals, but I must also mention that there were animals tame and wild who changed into one another and into corresponding human natures—the good into the gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of combinations.

And according to the report from the messenger of the afterlife, this is what the prophet said at the time: ‘Even for the last person, if he chooses wisely and lives diligently, there is a fate of happiness that is not undesirable. Let not the one who chooses first be careless, and let not the last lose hope.’ After he spoke, the one who had the first choice stepped up and quickly picked the greatest tyranny; his mind, clouded by foolishness and indulgence, didn't consider everything before making his choice, and he didn't realize at first glance that he was doomed, among other misfortunes, to consume his own children. But when he took time to reflect and saw what he had chosen, he began to beat his chest and lament over his decision, forgetting the prophet's proclamation; instead of blaming his misfortune on himself, he blamed chance, the gods, and everything possible except himself. He was one of those who came from heaven, and in a past life had lived in an orderly state, but his virtue was just a habit, and he had no real philosophy. It was also true for others in a similar situation that most of them came from heaven, so they had never faced trials, while the souls who came from earth, having suffered themselves and seen others suffer, were not quick to choose. Because of their lack of experience, and because the choosing was based on chance, many souls swapped a good fate for a bad one or a bad one for a good one. If a person had dedicated himself to sound philosophy from the beginning upon arriving in this world, and had been somewhat lucky with the number of the lot, he might, as the messenger stated, be happy here, and his journey to the next life and back would be smooth and heavenly instead of rough and dark. Most curious, he said, was the sight—sad, funny, and strange; for the choices of the souls were often influenced by their experiences from past lives. There he saw the soul that had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of hatred for women, refusing to be born of a woman because they had killed him; he also saw the soul of Thamyras choosing the life of a nightingale; on the other hand, birds like the swan and other musicians wanted to be human. The soul that got the twentieth lot chose to be a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax, the son of Telamon, who refused to be a man, recalling the injustice done to him in the judgment about the armor. Next was Agamemnon, who chose the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax, he despised human nature due to his suffering. In the middle was Atalanta's lot; she, seeing the glory of being an athlete, couldn't resist the temptation; after her came the soul of Epeus, the son of Panopeus, who took on the nature of a woman skilled in crafts; and far down among the last to choose, the soul of the jester Thersites was transforming into a monkey. The soul of Odysseus also arrived needing to make a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. The memories of his past struggles had made him lose his ambition, and he spent a long time looking for the life of a private man without cares; he had trouble finding this life, which was lying around neglected by everyone else; when he saw it, he said that he would have made the same choice had his lot been first instead of last, and that he was glad to have it. And not only did people transform into animals, but I should also mention that there were both tame and wild animals that changed into one another and into corresponding human forms—the good into the gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of combinations.

All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness, which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things. Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He himself was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre.

All the souls had now picked their lives, and they went in the order of their choices to Lachesis, who sent with them the spirit they had each chosen to guard their lives and fulfill their choices. This spirit led the souls first to Clotho, who pulled them into the cycle of the spinning wheel she controlled, confirming each person's destiny. Then, once they were bound to this spin, they were taken to Atropos, who spun the threads and made their destinies unchangeable. Without looking back, they went beneath the throne of Necessity, and after they had all passed through, they continued on in the scorching heat to the Plain of Forgetfulness, a barren wasteland without trees or greenery. Later, in the evening, they set up camp by the River of Unmindfulness, whose waters no container can hold. They all had to drink a certain amount from it, and those who lacked wisdom ended up drinking more than they should have; each one as they drank forgot everything. After they rested, in the middle of the night, there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and suddenly they were propelled upwards in every direction to their births, like shooting stars. He himself was prevented from drinking the water. But he couldn’t explain how he returned to his body; only, in the morning, he suddenly woke up to find himself lying on the pyre.

And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is, that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been describing.

And so, Glaucon, the story has been preserved and hasn’t died out, and it will help us if we stick to what has been said; we will safely cross the river of Forgetfulness, and our souls won't be tainted. Therefore, my advice is that we always hold onto the path of the divine and pursue justice and virtue, keeping in mind that the soul is eternal and can endure all kinds of good and bad. This way, we will live close to each other and to the gods, both while we’re here and when we, like champions in the games, come around to receive our rewards. Things will go well for us in this life and throughout the thousand-year journey we've been talking about.


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