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PARMENIDES
By Plato
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
Contents
INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
The awe with which Plato regarded the character of 'the great' Parmenides has extended to the dialogue which he calls by his name. None of the writings of Plato have been more copiously illustrated, both in ancient and modern times, and in none of them have the interpreters been more at variance with one another. Nor is this surprising. For the Parmenides is more fragmentary and isolated than any other dialogue, and the design of the writer is not expressly stated. The date is uncertain; the relation to the other writings of Plato is also uncertain; the connexion between the two parts is at first sight extremely obscure; and in the latter of the two we are left in doubt as to whether Plato is speaking his own sentiments by the lips of Parmenides, and overthrowing him out of his own mouth, or whether he is propounding consequences which would have been admitted by Zeno and Parmenides themselves. The contradictions which follow from the hypotheses of the one and many have been regarded by some as transcendental mysteries; by others as a mere illustration, taken at random, of a new method. They seem to have been inspired by a sort of dialectical frenzy, such as may be supposed to have prevailed in the Megarian School (compare Cratylus, etc.). The criticism on his own doctrine of Ideas has also been considered, not as a real criticism, but as an exuberance of the metaphysical imagination which enabled Plato to go beyond himself. To the latter part of the dialogue we may certainly apply the words in which he himself describes the earlier philosophers in the Sophist: 'They went on their way rather regardless of whether we understood them or not.'
The admiration that Plato had for 'the great' Parmenides also extends to the dialogue that carries his name. Few of Plato's works have been analyzed as thoroughly, both in ancient times and today, and few have seen such differing interpretations. This isn't surprising. The Parmenides is more fragmented and disjointed than any other dialogue, and the author's intent isn't clearly stated. The date of its creation is uncertain; its connection to Plato's other writings is also unclear; and the link between the two parts seems extremely obscure at first glance. In the latter part, it’s unclear whether Plato is conveying his own views through Parmenides' words, effectively contradicting Parmenides, or if he’s presenting ideas that Zeno and Parmenides would have agreed with. The contradictions that arise from the concepts of the one and the many have been seen by some as profound mysteries, while others regard them as simply a random example of a new method. They seem to stem from a kind of dialectical frenzy that could be attributed to the Megarian School (see Cratylus, etc.). The critique of his own theory of Ideas has also been viewed, not as a sincere critique, but as a burst of metaphysical imagination that allowed Plato to transcend his own ideas. We can definitely apply to the latter part of the dialogue the words he uses to describe earlier philosophers in the Sophist: 'They continued on their way without much concern for whether we understood them or not.'
The Parmenides in point of style is one of the best of the Platonic writings; the first portion of the dialogue is in no way defective in ease and grace and dramatic interest; nor in the second part, where there was no room for such qualities, is there any want of clearness or precision. The latter half is an exquisite mosaic, of which the small pieces are with the utmost fineness and regularity adapted to one another. Like the Protagoras, Phaedo, and others, the whole is a narrated dialogue, combining with the mere recital of the words spoken, the observations of the reciter on the effect produced by them. Thus we are informed by him that Zeno and Parmenides were not altogether pleased at the request of Socrates that they would examine into the nature of the one and many in the sphere of Ideas, although they received his suggestion with approving smiles. And we are glad to be told that Parmenides was 'aged but well-favoured,' and that Zeno was 'very good-looking'; also that Parmenides affected to decline the great argument, on which, as Zeno knew from experience, he was not unwilling to enter. The character of Antiphon, the half-brother of Plato, who had once been inclined to philosophy, but has now shown the hereditary disposition for horses, is very naturally described. He is the sole depositary of the famous dialogue; but, although he receives the strangers like a courteous gentleman, he is impatient of the trouble of reciting it. As they enter, he has been giving orders to a bridle-maker; by this slight touch Plato verifies the previous description of him. After a little persuasion he is induced to favour the Clazomenians, who come from a distance, with a rehearsal. Respecting the visit of Zeno and Parmenides to Athens, we may observe—first, that such a visit is consistent with dates, and may possibly have occurred; secondly, that Plato is very likely to have invented the meeting ('You, Socrates, can easily invent Egyptian tales or anything else,' Phaedrus); thirdly, that no reliance can be placed on the circumstance as determining the date of Parmenides and Zeno; fourthly, that the same occasion appears to be referred to by Plato in two other places (Theaet., Soph.).
The Parmenides, in terms of style, is one of the best of Plato's writings. The first part of the dialogue is smooth, graceful, and dramatically engaging, and even in the second part, where those qualities aren’t as pertinent, there's no lack of clarity or precision. The latter half is a beautiful mosaic, with the small pieces fitting together with the utmost delicacy and regularity. Like the Protagoras, Phaedo, and others, the whole piece is presented as a narrated dialogue, combining the actual words spoken with the narrator's comments on their impact. We're informed that Zeno and Parmenides weren’t entirely pleased with Socrates’ request to explore the nature of "one and many" in the realm of Ideas, even though they responded with approving smiles. We're also told that Parmenides was "old but good-looking," and Zeno was "very attractive"; furthermore, Parmenides pretended to shy away from the main argument, which Zeno knew from experience he was actually willing to engage in. The character of Antiphon, who is Plato's half-brother and once showed an interest in philosophy but has now developed a hereditary passion for horses, is described very naturally. He is the only one who knows the famous dialogue, but even though he welcomes the visitors like a polite gentleman, he’s impatient with the hassle of reciting it. As they enter, he has been instructing a bridle-maker; this small detail confirms the earlier description of him. After some persuasion, he agrees to give the Clazomenians, who have come from afar, a rehearsal. Regarding the visit of Zeno and Parmenides to Athens, we can note—first, that such a visit aligns with the timeline and could potentially have happened; second, that Plato likely invented the meeting ("You, Socrates, can easily make up Egyptian tales or anything else," Phaedrus); third, that we shouldn't rely on this event to establish the timing of Parmenides and Zeno; and fourth, that the same occasion seems to be referenced by Plato in two other places (Theaet., Soph.).
Many interpreters have regarded the Parmenides as a 'reductio ad absurdum' of the Eleatic philosophy. But would Plato have been likely to place this in the mouth of the great Parmenides himself, who appeared to him, in Homeric language, to be 'venerable and awful,' and to have a 'glorious depth of mind'? (Theaet.). It may be admitted that he has ascribed to an Eleatic stranger in the Sophist opinions which went beyond the doctrines of the Eleatics. But the Eleatic stranger expressly criticises the doctrines in which he had been brought up; he admits that he is going to 'lay hands on his father Parmenides.' Nothing of this kind is said of Zeno and Parmenides. How then, without a word of explanation, could Plato assign to them the refutation of their own tenets?
Many interpreters have viewed the Parmenides as a 'reductio ad absurdum' of Eleatic philosophy. But would Plato have really put this in the words of the great Parmenides himself, who struck him as, in Homeric terms, 'venerable and awe-inspiring,' and possessing a 'glorious depth of mind'? (Theaet.). It's true that he attributed to an Eleatic stranger in the Sophist ideas that went beyond those of the Eleatics. However, the Eleatic stranger explicitly criticizes the teachings he grew up with; he confesses that he’s going to 'challenge his father Parmenides.' Nothing like this is said about Zeno and Parmenides. So how could Plato, without any explanation, have assigned them the task of refuting their own beliefs?
The conclusion at which we must arrive is that the Parmenides is not a refutation of the Eleatic philosophy. Nor would such an explanation afford any satisfactory connexion of the first and second parts of the dialogue. And it is quite inconsistent with Plato's own relation to the Eleatics. For of all the pre-Socratic philosophers, he speaks of them with the greatest respect. But he could hardly have passed upon them a more unmeaning slight than to ascribe to their great master tenets the reverse of those which he actually held.
The conclusion we need to reach is that the Parmenides does not contradict the Eleatic philosophy. Also, such an explanation wouldn't create a satisfactory connection between the first and second parts of the dialogue. Additionally, it doesn’t align with Plato's own views on the Eleatics. Among all the pre-Socratic philosophers, he refers to them with the highest respect. It would be quite meaningless for him to belittle them by attributing to their great master beliefs that are the opposite of what he actually believed.
Two preliminary remarks may be made. First, that whatever latitude we may allow to Plato in bringing together by a 'tour de force,' as in the Phaedrus, dissimilar themes, yet he always in some way seeks to find a connexion for them. Many threads join together in one the love and dialectic of the Phaedrus. We cannot conceive that the great artist would place in juxtaposition two absolutely divided and incoherent subjects. And hence we are led to make a second remark: viz. that no explanation of the Parmenides can be satisfactory which does not indicate the connexion of the first and second parts. To suppose that Plato would first go out of his way to make Parmenides attack the Platonic Ideas, and then proceed to a similar but more fatal assault on his own doctrine of Being, appears to be the height of absurdity.
Two preliminary points can be made. First, even though we might give Plato some leeway in connecting different themes, like in the Phaedrus, he always tries to find a connection among them. In the Phaedrus, love and dialectic weave together in various ways. We can't imagine that this great artist would put two completely unrelated and incoherent subjects side by side. Therefore, we arrive at a second point: any explanation of the Parmenides must show the connection between the first and second parts. It seems utterly absurd to think that Plato would first go out of his way to have Parmenides criticize the Platonic Ideas and then make a similar but even harsher critique of his own doctrine of Being.
Perhaps there is no passage in Plato showing greater metaphysical power than that in which he assails his own theory of Ideas. The arguments are nearly, if not quite, those of Aristotle; they are the objections which naturally occur to a modern student of philosophy. Many persons will be surprised to find Plato criticizing the very conceptions which have been supposed in after ages to be peculiarly characteristic of him. How can he have placed himself so completely without them? How can he have ever persisted in them after seeing the fatal objections which might be urged against them? The consideration of this difficulty has led a recent critic (Ueberweg), who in general accepts the authorised canon of the Platonic writings, to condemn the Parmenides as spurious. The accidental want of external evidence, at first sight, seems to favour this opinion.
Perhaps there is no passage in Plato that shows greater metaphysical power than the one where he criticizes his own theory of Ideas. The arguments closely resemble those of Aristotle; they are the objections that naturally arise for a modern philosophy student. Many people will be surprised to see Plato questioning the very ideas that were thought to be distinctly his in later times. How could he completely distance himself from them? How could he have continued to support them after recognizing the serious objections that could be made against them? This challenge has led a recent critic (Ueberweg), who generally agrees with the accepted works of Plato, to label the Parmenides as inauthentic. The lack of external evidence, at first glance, seems to support this view.
In answer, it might be sufficient to say, that no ancient writing of equal length and excellence is known to be spurious. Nor is the silence of Aristotle to be hastily assumed; there is at least a doubt whether his use of the same arguments does not involve the inference that he knew the work. And, if the Parmenides is spurious, like Ueberweg, we are led on further than we originally intended, to pass a similar condemnation on the Theaetetus and Sophist, and therefore on the Politicus (compare Theaet., Soph.). But the objection is in reality fanciful, and rests on the assumption that the doctrine of the Ideas was held by Plato throughout his life in the same form. For the truth is, that the Platonic Ideas were in constant process of growth and transmutation; sometimes veiled in poetry and mythology, then again emerging as fixed Ideas, in some passages regarded as absolute and eternal, and in others as relative to the human mind, existing in and derived from external objects as well as transcending them. The anamnesis of the Ideas is chiefly insisted upon in the mythical portions of the dialogues, and really occupies a very small space in the entire works of Plato. Their transcendental existence is not asserted, and is therefore implicitly denied in the Philebus; different forms are ascribed to them in the Republic, and they are mentioned in the Theaetetus, the Sophist, the Politicus, and the Laws, much as Universals would be spoken of in modern books. Indeed, there are very faint traces of the transcendental doctrine of Ideas, that is, of their existence apart from the mind, in any of Plato's writings, with the exception of the Meno, the Phaedrus, the Phaedo, and in portions of the Republic. The stereotyped form which Aristotle has given to them is not found in Plato (compare Essay on the Platonic Ideas in the Introduction to the Meno.)
In response, it's enough to say that no ancient writings of similar length and quality are known to be fake. Also, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about Aristotle's silence; there's at least a question of whether his use of the same arguments suggests that he was aware of the work. If the Parmenides is a fabrication, like Ueberweg suggests, we would have to extend that criticism to the Theaetetus and Sophist, and thus to the Politicus (compare Theaet., Soph.). However, this objection is really just an assumption based on the belief that Plato held the doctrine of Ideas in the same way throughout his life. The reality is that the Platonic Ideas were constantly evolving and changing; sometimes they appeared in poetic and mythological forms, and at other times they appeared as fixed Ideas, sometimes seen as absolute and eternal, and at others as relative to human perception, existing in and derived from external objects while also surpassing them. The concept of anamnesis regarding the Ideas is mainly emphasized in the mythical parts of the dialogues and takes up very little space in all of Plato's works. Their transcendental existence is not claimed, and thus is implicitly denied in the Philebus; different forms are assigned to them in the Republic, and they are referenced in the Theaetetus, the Sophist, the Politicus, and the Laws, much like how Universals would be discussed in modern texts. In fact, there are only faint indications of the transcendental doctrine of Ideas—that is, their existence separate from the mind—in any of Plato's writings, except for the Meno, the Phaedrus, the Phaedo, and certain parts of the Republic. The fixed version that Aristotle gives them is not found in Plato (compare Essay on the Platonic Ideas in the Introduction to the Meno.)
The full discussion of this subject involves a comprehensive survey of the philosophy of Plato, which would be out of place here. But, without digressing further from the immediate subject of the Parmenides, we may remark that Plato is quite serious in his objections to his own doctrines: nor does Socrates attempt to offer any answer to them. The perplexities which surround the one and many in the sphere of the Ideas are also alluded to in the Philebus, and no answer is given to them. Nor have they ever been answered, nor can they be answered by any one else who separates the phenomenal from the real. To suppose that Plato, at a later period of his life, reached a point of view from which he was able to answer them, is a groundless assumption. The real progress of Plato's own mind has been partly concealed from us by the dogmatic statements of Aristotle, and also by the degeneracy of his own followers, with whom a doctrine of numbers quickly superseded Ideas.
The full discussion of this topic requires a thorough look at Plato's philosophy, which isn't appropriate here. However, without straying too far from the immediate subject of the Parmenides, we can note that Plato is quite serious about his criticisms of his own teachings, and Socrates doesn’t try to respond to them. The confusion surrounding the one and many in the realm of Ideas is also mentioned in the Philebus, and no answers are provided. These questions have never been answered, nor can anyone who distinguishes between the phenomenal and the real provide answers. To think that Plato, later in life, found a perspective that allowed him to address these issues is an unfounded assumption. The true development of Plato's thought has been partially obscured by Aristotle's dogmatic assertions and by the decline of his own followers, who quickly replaced the doctrine of Ideas with a focus on numbers.
As a preparation for answering some of the difficulties which have been suggested, we may begin by sketching the first portion of the dialogue:—
As a way to prepare for addressing some of the challenges that have been mentioned, we can start by outlining the initial part of the dialogue:—
Cephalus, of Clazomenae in Ionia, the birthplace of Anaxagoras, a citizen of no mean city in the history of philosophy, who is the narrator of the dialogue, describes himself as meeting Adeimantus and Glaucon in the Agora at Athens. 'Welcome, Cephalus: can we do anything for you in Athens?' 'Why, yes: I came to ask a favour of you. First, tell me your half-brother's name, which I have forgotten—he was a mere child when I was last here;—I know his father's, which is Pyrilampes.' 'Yes, and the name of our brother is Antiphon. But why do you ask?' 'Let me introduce to you some countrymen of mine, who are lovers of philosophy; they have heard that Antiphon remembers a conversation of Socrates with Parmenides and Zeno, of which the report came to him from Pythodorus, Zeno's friend.' 'That is quite true.' 'And can they hear the dialogue?' 'Nothing easier; in the days of his youth he made a careful study of the piece; at present, his thoughts have another direction: he takes after his grandfather, and has given up philosophy for horses.'
Cephalus, from Clazomenae in Ionia, the birthplace of Anaxagoras and a significant city in the history of philosophy, who narrates the dialogue, mentions that he meets Adeimantus and Glaucon in the Agora in Athens. 'Welcome, Cephalus: is there anything we can do for you in Athens?' 'Actually, yes: I came to ask you for a favor. First, can you tell me your half-brother's name? I've forgotten it—he was just a kid the last time I was here; I know his father’s name, Pyrilampes.' 'Yes, our brother’s name is Antiphon. But why do you need to know?' 'Let me introduce you to some friends of mine from back home who love philosophy; they’ve heard that Antiphon remembers a conversation between Socrates, Parmenides, and Zeno, which he learned about from Pythodorus, Zeno's friend.' 'That's true.' 'Can they hear the dialogue?' 'That’s easy; in his youth, he studied it carefully. Nowadays, though, his interests have changed: he takes after his grandfather and has moved on from philosophy to horses.'
'We went to look for him, and found him giving instructions to a worker in brass about a bridle. When he had done with him, and had learned from his brothers the purpose of our visit, he saluted me as an old acquaintance, and we asked him to repeat the dialogue. At first, he complained of the trouble, but he soon consented. He told us that Pythodorus had described to him the appearance of Parmenides and Zeno; they had come to Athens at the great Panathenaea, the former being at the time about sixty-five years old, aged but well-favoured—Zeno, who was said to have been beloved of Parmenides in the days of his youth, about forty, and very good-looking:—that they lodged with Pythodorus at the Ceramicus outside the wall, whither Socrates, then a very young man, came to see them: Zeno was reading one of his theses, which he had nearly finished, when Pythodorus entered with Parmenides and Aristoteles, who was afterwards one of the Thirty. When the recitation was completed, Socrates requested that the first thesis of the treatise might be read again.'
We went to find him and saw him instructing a worker in brass about a bridle. Once he finished with him and learned from his brothers why we were there, he greeted me as an old friend, and we asked him to repeat the dialogue. At first, he grumbled about the hassle, but he quickly agreed. He told us that Pythodorus had described Parmenides and Zeno's appearance; they had come to Athens during the great Panathenaea, with the former being around sixty-five years old—aged but still good-looking—while Zeno, who was said to have been Parmenides' beloved in his youth, was about forty and very attractive. They were staying with Pythodorus at the Ceramicus outside the city wall, where Socrates, then a very young man, went to see them. Zeno was reading one of his theses, which he had nearly finished, when Pythodorus entered with Parmenides and Aristoteles, who later became one of the Thirty. Once the recitation was done, Socrates asked for the first thesis of the treatise to be read again.
'You mean, Zeno,' said Socrates, 'to argue that being, if it is many, must be both like and unlike, which is a contradiction; and each division of your argument is intended to elicit a similar absurdity, which may be supposed to follow from the assumption that being is many.' 'Such is my meaning.' 'I see,' said Socrates, turning to Parmenides, 'that Zeno is your second self in his writings too; you prove admirably that the all is one: he gives proofs no less convincing that the many are nought. To deceive the world by saying the same thing in entirely different forms, is a strain of art beyond most of us.' 'Yes, Socrates,' said Zeno; 'but though you are as keen as a Spartan hound, you do not quite catch the motive of the piece, which was only intended to protect Parmenides against ridicule by showing that the hypothesis of the existence of the many involved greater absurdities than the hypothesis of the one. The book was a youthful composition of mine, which was stolen from me, and therefore I had no choice about the publication.' 'I quite believe you,' said Socrates; 'but will you answer me a question? I should like to know, whether you would assume an idea of likeness in the abstract, which is the contradictory of unlikeness in the abstract, by participation in either or both of which things are like or unlike or partly both. For the same things may very well partake of like and unlike in the concrete, though like and unlike in the abstract are irreconcilable. Nor does there appear to me to be any absurdity in maintaining that the same things may partake of the one and many, though I should be indeed surprised to hear that the absolute one is also many. For example, I, being many, that is to say, having many parts or members, am yet also one, and partake of the one, being one of seven who are here present (compare Philebus). This is not an absurdity, but a truism. But I should be amazed if there were a similar entanglement in the nature of the ideas themselves, nor can I believe that one and many, like and unlike, rest and motion, in the abstract, are capable either of admixture or of separation.'
"You mean, Zeno," said Socrates, "to argue that if being is many, it must be both similar and different, which is a contradiction; and each part of your argument is meant to reveal a similar absurdity that arises from the idea that being is many." "That’s exactly what I mean." "I see," said Socrates, turning to Parmenides, "that Zeno is like your second self in his writings too; you convincingly prove that the whole is one: he provides equally convincing proofs that the many are nothing. To trick the world by stating the same thing in completely different ways is a level of skill beyond most of us." "Yes, Socrates," said Zeno; "but even though you’re as sharp as a Spartan hound, you don't fully grasp the purpose of the piece, which was merely to defend Parmenides against mockery by showing that the idea of the existence of the many leads to greater absurdities than the idea of the one. The book was an early work of mine that was taken from me, so I had no control over its publication." "I believe you," said Socrates; "but can you answer me a question? I’d like to know if you would assume an idea of likeness in the abstract, which contradicts the idea of unlikeness in the abstract. This idea shows how things can be like, unlike, or partly both by sharing in either or both concepts. The same things can indeed possess the qualities of being like and unlike in reality, even though likeness and unlikeness in the abstract are incompatible. I also don't see any absurdity in saying that the same things can embody the one and the many, though I would be quite surprised to hear that the absolute one is also many. For instance, I, being many, meaning I have many parts or members, am still one, partaking in the one, being one of seven who are here (see Philebus). This is not an absurdity, but a simple truth. However, I would be astonished if there were similar confusion in the nature of the ideas themselves, and I can't believe that one and many, like and unlike, rest and motion, in the abstract, can either mix or separate."
Pythodorus said that in his opinion Parmenides and Zeno were not very well pleased at the questions which were raised; nevertheless, they looked at one another and smiled in seeming delight and admiration of Socrates. 'Tell me,' said Parmenides, 'do you think that the abstract ideas of likeness, unity, and the rest, exist apart from individuals which partake of them? and is this your own distinction?' 'I think that there are such ideas.' 'And would you make abstract ideas of the just, the beautiful, the good?' 'Yes,' he said. 'And of human beings like ourselves, of water, fire, and the like?' 'I am not certain.' 'And would you be undecided also about ideas of which the mention will, perhaps, appear laughable: of hair, mud, filth, and other things which are base and vile?' 'No, Parmenides; visible things like these are, as I believe, only what they appear to be: though I am sometimes disposed to imagine that there is nothing without an idea; but I repress any such notion, from a fear of falling into an abyss of nonsense.' 'You are young, Socrates, and therefore naturally regard the opinions of men; the time will come when philosophy will have a firmer hold of you, and you will not despise even the meanest things. But tell me, is your meaning that things become like by partaking of likeness, great by partaking of greatness, just and beautiful by partaking of justice and beauty, and so of other ideas?' 'Yes, that is my meaning.' 'And do you suppose the individual to partake of the whole, or of the part?' 'Why not of the whole?' said Socrates. 'Because,' said Parmenides, 'in that case the whole, which is one, will become many.' 'Nay,' said Socrates, 'the whole may be like the day, which is one and in many places: in this way the ideas may be one and also many.' 'In the same sort of way,' said Parmenides, 'as a sail, which is one, may be a cover to many—that is your meaning?' 'Yes.' 'And would you say that each man is covered by the whole sail, or by a part only?' 'By a part.' 'Then the ideas have parts, and the objects partake of a part of them only?' 'That seems to follow.' 'And would you like to say that the ideas are really divisible and yet remain one?' 'Certainly not.' 'Would you venture to affirm that great objects have a portion only of greatness transferred to them; or that small or equal objects are small or equal because they are only portions of smallness or equality?' 'Impossible.' 'But how can individuals participate in ideas, except in the ways which I have mentioned?' 'That is not an easy question to answer.' 'I should imagine the conception of ideas to arise as follows: you see great objects pervaded by a common form or idea of greatness, which you abstract.' 'That is quite true.' 'And supposing you embrace in one view the idea of greatness thus gained and the individuals which it comprises, a further idea of greatness arises, which makes both great; and this may go on to infinity.' Socrates replies that the ideas may be thoughts in the mind only; in this case, the consequence would no longer follow. 'But must not the thought be of something which is the same in all and is the idea? And if the world partakes in the ideas, and the ideas are thoughts, must not all things think? Or can thought be without thought?' 'I acknowledge the unmeaningness of this,' says Socrates, 'and would rather have recourse to the explanation that the ideas are types in nature, and that other things partake of them by becoming like them.' 'But to become like them is to be comprehended in the same idea; and the likeness of the idea and the individuals implies another idea of likeness, and another without end.' 'Quite true.' 'The theory, then, of participation by likeness has to be given up. You have hardly yet, Socrates, found out the real difficulty of maintaining abstract ideas.' 'What difficulty?' 'The greatest of all perhaps is this: an opponent will argue that the ideas are not within the range of human knowledge; and you cannot disprove the assertion without a long and laborious demonstration, which he may be unable or unwilling to follow. In the first place, neither you nor any one who maintains the existence of absolute ideas will affirm that they are subjective.' 'That would be a contradiction.' 'True; and therefore any relation in these ideas is a relation which concerns themselves only; and the objects which are named after them, are relative to one another only, and have nothing to do with the ideas themselves.' 'How do you mean?' said Socrates. 'I may illustrate my meaning in this way: one of us has a slave; and the idea of a slave in the abstract is relative to the idea of a master in the abstract; this correspondence of ideas, however, has nothing to do with the particular relation of our slave to us.—Do you see my meaning?' 'Perfectly.' 'And absolute knowledge in the same way corresponds to absolute truth and being, and particular knowledge to particular truth and being.' Clearly.' 'And there is a subjective knowledge which is of subjective truth, having many kinds, general and particular. But the ideas themselves are not subjective, and therefore are not within our ken.' 'They are not.' 'Then the beautiful and the good in their own nature are unknown to us?' 'It would seem so.' 'There is a worse consequence yet.' 'What is that?' 'I think we must admit that absolute knowledge is the most exact knowledge, which we must therefore attribute to God. But then see what follows: God, having this exact knowledge, can have no knowledge of human things, as we have divided the two spheres, and forbidden any passing from one to the other:—the gods have knowledge and authority in their world only, as we have in ours.' 'Yet, surely, to deprive God of knowledge is monstrous.'—'These are some of the difficulties which are involved in the assumption of absolute ideas; the learner will find them nearly impossible to understand, and the teacher who has to impart them will require superhuman ability; there will always be a suspicion, either that they have no existence, or are beyond human knowledge.' 'There I agree with you,' said Socrates. 'Yet if these difficulties induce you to give up universal ideas, what becomes of the mind? and where are the reasoning and reflecting powers? philosophy is at an end.' 'I certainly do not see my way.' 'I think,' said Parmenides, 'that this arises out of your attempting to define abstractions, such as the good and the beautiful and the just, before you have had sufficient previous training; I noticed your deficiency when you were talking with Aristoteles, the day before yesterday. Your enthusiasm is a wonderful gift; but I fear that unless you discipline yourself by dialectic while you are young, truth will elude your grasp.' 'And what kind of discipline would you recommend?' 'The training which you heard Zeno practising; at the same time, I admire your saying to him that you did not care to consider the difficulty in reference to visible objects, but only in relation to ideas.' 'Yes; because I think that in visible objects you may easily show any number of inconsistent consequences.' 'Yes; and you should consider, not only the consequences which follow from a given hypothesis, but the consequences also which follow from the denial of the hypothesis. For example, what follows from the assumption of the existence of the many, and the counter-argument of what follows from the denial of the existence of the many: and similarly of likeness and unlikeness, motion, rest, generation, corruption, being and not being. And the consequences must include consequences to the things supposed and to other things, in themselves and in relation to one another, to individuals whom you select, to the many, and to the all; these must be drawn out both on the affirmative and on the negative hypothesis,—that is, if you are to train yourself perfectly to the intelligence of the truth.' 'What you are suggesting seems to be a tremendous process, and one of which I do not quite understand the nature,' said Socrates; 'will you give me an example?' 'You must not impose such a task on a man of my years,' said Parmenides. 'Then will you, Zeno?' 'Let us rather,' said Zeno, with a smile, 'ask Parmenides, for the undertaking is a serious one, as he truly says; nor could I urge him to make the attempt, except in a select audience of persons who will understand him.' The whole party joined in the request.
Pythodorus mentioned that, in his view, Parmenides and Zeno were not very happy about the questions being asked; however, they exchanged smiles, seemingly pleased and admiring of Socrates. "Tell me," Parmenides asked, "do you believe that abstract concepts like likeness, unity, and others exist independently from the individuals that embody them? And is this distinction your own?" "I believe those ideas exist." "And would you create abstract ideas for justice, beauty, and goodness?" "Yes," he replied. "What about human beings, water, fire, and similar things?" "I’m not sure." "Would you also hesitate regarding ideas that might seem funny, like hair, mud, dirt, and other undesirable things?" "No, Parmenides; I believe those visible things are just what they seem to be. Though I sometimes wonder if nothing exists without an idea; but I push that thought away for fear of falling into complete nonsense." "You are young, Socrates, and so it's normal for you to care about people's opinions. The time will come when philosophy will take a stronger hold on you, and you won’t overlook even the lowest things. But tell me, do you mean that things become similar by partaking in likeness, great by partaking in greatness, just and beautiful by partaking in justice and beauty, and so on for other ideas?" "Yes, that's what I mean." "And do you think an individual partakes of the whole or just a part?" "Why not the whole?" Socrates responded. "Because," Parmenides said, "if that's the case, the whole, which is one, will become many." "No," Socrates replied, "the whole can be like the day, which is one but exists in many places. In this way, ideas can be both one and many." "In the same way," Parmenides said, "as a sail, which is one, can cover many—am I right?" "Yes." "Would you claim that each person is covered by the whole sail, or just a part?" "By a part." "Then do ideas have parts, and do objects partake of only a part of them?" "That seems to follow." "Would you say that ideas are really divisible yet still remain one?" "Certainly not." "Would you assert that large objects possess only a bit of greatness, or that small or equal objects are small or equal just because they are only portions of smallness or equality?" "That's impossible." "But how can individuals share in ideas, other than in the ways I've described?" "That’s a tough question to answer." "I imagine the conception of ideas arises like this: you see large objects filled with a common form or idea of greatness, which you abstract." "That’s completely true." "And if you look at the idea of greatness you've obtained and the individuals it includes, another idea of greatness arises that makes both of them great; this can continue indefinitely." Socrates says that ideas might only be thoughts in the mind; if that's the case, the conclusion doesn’t follow. "But mustn't thoughts pertain to something that is the same in all and is the idea? If the world participates in the ideas and the ideas are thoughts, then doesn’t everything think? Or is thought possible without thought?" "I recognize the futility of this," Socrates replies, "and I prefer the explanation that ideas are types in nature, and other things partake in them by becoming similar." "But to become similar means being included in the same idea; and the similarity between the idea and the individuals suggests another idea of similarity, and another without end." "That's true." "So, the theory of participation through similarity must be abandoned. You have not yet fully grasped the real challenge of maintaining abstract ideas." "What challenge?" "Perhaps the biggest is this: a critic can argue that the ideas are beyond human understanding, and you can't easily disprove this claim without a lengthy and complicated demonstration that they might not be able or willing to follow. First, neither you nor anyone who asserts the existence of absolute ideas would claim they're subjective." "That would be a contradiction." "Correct; thus any relationship in these ideas only concerns themselves, and the objects named after them are only relative to one another, not to the ideas themselves." "What do you mean?" Socrates asked. "Let me explain: one of us has a slave, and the abstract idea of a slave is relative to the abstract idea of a master. However, this relationship of ideas has nothing to do with the specific relationship of our slave to us. Do you understand?" "Perfectly." "Likewise, absolute knowledge corresponds to absolute truth and being, while particular knowledge corresponds to particular truth and being." "Clearly." "And there's subjective knowledge related to subjective truth, which comes in many forms, general and specific. But the ideas themselves aren't subjective, and therefore are outside our comprehension." "They are not." "So, the beautiful and the good, in their essence, remain unknown to us?" "It seems so." "There's an even worse outcome." "What’s that?" "We must acknowledge that absolute knowledge is the most precise knowledge, which we must attribute to God. But consider the implications: God, possessing this precise knowledge, can have no knowledge of human affairs, as we've separated the two realms and prohibited any crossover. The gods only have knowledge and authority in their world, just as we do in ours." "Yet, surely denying God knowledge is monstrous." "These are some of the difficulties tied to the belief in absolute ideas. Learners will struggle to understand them, and teachers will need extraordinary skill to convey them; there will always be a suspicion that they either don’t exist or are beyond human understanding." "I agree with you," said Socrates. "Yet if these challenges lead you to abandon universal ideas, what happens to the mind? Where do reasoning and reflection fit in? Philosophy would come to an end." "I truly don't see a way forward." "I think," said Parmenides, "this stems from your attempt to define abstractions like the good, beautiful, and just before you've had enough foundational training. I noticed your shortcomings when you were speaking with Aristoteles the day before yesterday. Your enthusiasm is a remarkable trait, but I worry that without some self-discipline through dialectic as a youth, truth will slip from your grasp." "What kind of discipline do you recommend?" "The training you saw Zeno practice; I also admire your statement to him that you preferred to consider the challenge regarding visible objects only in relation to ideas." "Yes, because I think it's easier to showcase inconsistencies with visible objects." "Right; and you should consider not only the consequences that follow from a specific hypothesis but also the outcomes that arise when denying that hypothesis. For instance, what results from assuming the existence of many, and what comes from denying it? This applies to concepts of likeness and unlikeness, motion and rest, creation and destruction, being and non-being. The consequences should encompass outcomes for the assumed concepts and for other entities, in themselves and in relation to each other, for specific individuals, for the many, and for the whole; these must be examined for both the affirmative and negative hypothesis—this is essential for completely training yourself to understand the truth." "What you're suggesting seems like a tremendous task, and I’m not entirely sure I grasp its nature," said Socrates. "Could you provide an example?" "You shouldn't impose such a challenge on someone my age," said Parmenides. "Then how about you, Zeno?" "Let’s rather," Zeno smiled, "ask Parmenides, as this is indeed a serious undertaking, as he said; and I wouldn't push him to attempt it except in front of a select audience who can comprehend him." The whole group joined in the request.
Here we have, first of all, an unmistakable attack made by the youthful Socrates on the paradoxes of Zeno. He perfectly understands their drift, and Zeno himself is supposed to admit this. But they appear to him, as he says in the Philebus also, to be rather truisms than paradoxes. For every one must acknowledge the obvious fact, that the body being one has many members, and that, in a thousand ways, the like partakes of the unlike, the many of the one. The real difficulty begins with the relations of ideas in themselves, whether of the one and many, or of any other ideas, to one another and to the mind. But this was a problem which the Eleatic philosophers had never considered; their thoughts had not gone beyond the contradictions of matter, motion, space, and the like.
Here we see, first of all, a clear challenge from the young Socrates to Zeno's paradoxes. He fully grasps their implications, and even Zeno is believed to acknowledge this. However, Socrates feels that these paradoxes are more like obvious truths than real dilemmas. After all, everyone must recognize the simple fact that a single body has many parts, and that in many ways, similar things share characteristics with different things, just as the many relate to the one. The real challenge arises when considering the relationships between ideas themselves, whether it’s the one and the many or any other concepts in relation to each other and to the mind. But this was a question that the Eleatic philosophers never examined; their thinking did not extend beyond the contradictions of matter, motion, space, and similar topics.
It was no wonder that Parmenides and Zeno should hear the novel speculations of Socrates with mixed feelings of admiration and displeasure. He was going out of the received circle of disputation into a region in which they could hardly follow him. From the crude idea of Being in the abstract, he was about to proceed to universals or general notions. There is no contradiction in material things partaking of the ideas of one and many; neither is there any contradiction in the ideas of one and many, like and unlike, in themselves. But the contradiction arises when we attempt to conceive ideas in their connexion, or to ascertain their relation to phenomena. Still he affirms the existence of such ideas; and this is the position which is now in turn submitted to the criticisms of Parmenides.
It’s not surprising that Parmenides and Zeno listened to Socrates’ new ideas with mixed feelings of admiration and discontent. He was moving beyond the usual debates into a realm they could barely keep up with. He was about to shift from the basic concept of Being in the abstract to more universal or general ideas. There’s no contradiction in material things sharing the qualities of one and many; nor is there a contradiction in the concepts of one and many, like and unlike, in themselves. But contradictions arise when we try to understand how these ideas connect or relate to actual things. Still, he insists that such ideas exist, and this is now the viewpoint that Parmenides is set to critique.
To appreciate truly the character of these criticisms, we must remember the place held by Parmenides in the history of Greek philosophy. He is the founder of idealism, and also of dialectic, or, in modern phraseology, of metaphysics and logic (Theaet., Soph.). Like Plato, he is struggling after something wider and deeper than satisfied the contemporary Pythagoreans. And Plato with a true instinct recognizes him as his spiritual father, whom he 'revered and honoured more than all other philosophers together.' He may be supposed to have thought more than he said, or was able to express. And, although he could not, as a matter of fact, have criticized the ideas of Plato without an anachronism, the criticism is appropriately placed in the mouth of the founder of the ideal philosophy.
To truly appreciate the nature of these criticisms, we need to remember the role Parmenides played in the history of Greek philosophy. He is the founder of idealism and also of dialectic, or, in today’s terms, of metaphysics and logic (Theaet., Soph.). Like Plato, he is searching for something broader and deeper than what satisfied the contemporary Pythagoreans. And Plato, with a keen insight, recognizes him as his spiritual father, whom he 'revered and honored more than all other philosophers combined.' He may have thought more than he actually expressed. And while he could not have criticized Plato's ideas without creating an anachronism, the criticism is fittingly attributed to the founder of ideal philosophy.
There was probably a time in the life of Plato when the ethical teaching of Socrates came into conflict with the metaphysical theories of the earlier philosophers, and he sought to supplement the one by the other. The older philosophers were great and awful; and they had the charm of antiquity. Something which found a response in his own mind seemed to have been lost as well as gained in the Socratic dialectic. He felt no incongruity in the veteran Parmenides correcting the youthful Socrates. Two points in his criticism are especially deserving of notice. First of all, Parmenides tries him by the test of consistency. Socrates is willing to assume ideas or principles of the just, the beautiful, the good, and to extend them to man (compare Phaedo); but he is reluctant to admit that there are general ideas of hair, mud, filth, etc. There is an ethical universal or idea, but is there also a universal of physics?—of the meanest things in the world as well as of the greatest? Parmenides rebukes this want of consistency in Socrates, which he attributes to his youth. As he grows older, philosophy will take a firmer hold of him, and then he will despise neither great things nor small, and he will think less of the opinions of mankind (compare Soph.). Here is lightly touched one of the most familiar principles of modern philosophy, that in the meanest operations of nature, as well as in the noblest, in mud and filth, as well as in the sun and stars, great truths are contained. At the same time, we may note also the transition in the mind of Plato, to which Aristotle alludes (Met.), when, as he says, he transferred the Socratic universal of ethics to the whole of nature.
There was probably a time in Plato's life when Socrates' ethical teachings clashed with the metaphysical ideas of earlier philosophers, and he tried to balance the two. The older philosophers were both impressive and daunting, and they had the allure of ancient wisdom. Plato sensed that something had been both lost and gained in Socratic dialogue. He saw no inconsistency in the seasoned Parmenides correcting the young Socrates. Two key points in his critique are especially noteworthy. First, Parmenides challenges him on consistency. Socrates is open to the ideas or principles of justice, beauty, and goodness, and he applies them to humanity (see Phaedo); however, he hesitates to accept that there are general ideas about things like hair, mud, and dirt. There is a universal ethical idea, but is there also a universal concept in physics?—for the smallest things in the world as well as the greatest? Parmenides criticizes this inconsistency in Socrates, attributing it to his youth. As he ages, philosophy will have a stronger influence on him, and he won't underestimate either significant or trivial matters; he will also place less importance on public opinion (see Soph.). This hints at a well-known principle in modern philosophy, which holds that great truths can be found in the most mundane aspects of nature, just as much as in the most noble, in mud and dirt as well as in the sun and stars. At the same time, we can observe the shift in Plato's thinking that Aristotle mentions (Met.), when, as Aristotle notes, he expanded the Socratic universal of ethics to encompass all of nature.
The other criticism of Parmenides on Socrates attributes to him a want of practice in dialectic. He has observed this deficiency in him when talking to Aristoteles on a previous occasion. Plato seems to imply that there was something more in the dialectic of Zeno than in the mere interrogation of Socrates. Here, again, he may perhaps be describing the process which his own mind went through when he first became more intimately acquainted, whether at Megara or elsewhere, with the Eleatic and Megarian philosophers. Still, Parmenides does not deny to Socrates the credit of having gone beyond them in seeking to apply the paradoxes of Zeno to ideas; and this is the application which he himself makes of them in the latter part of the dialogue. He then proceeds to explain to him the sort of mental gymnastic which he should practise. He should consider not only what would follow from a given hypothesis, but what would follow from the denial of it, to that which is the subject of the hypothesis, and to all other things. There is no trace in the Memorabilia of Xenophon of any such method being attributed to Socrates; nor is the dialectic here spoken of that 'favourite method' of proceeding by regular divisions, which is described in the Phaedrus and Philebus, and of which examples are given in the Politicus and in the Sophist. It is expressly spoken of as the method which Socrates had heard Zeno practise in the days of his youth (compare Soph.).
The other criticism Parmenides has of Socrates points out his lack of experience in dialectic. He noticed this shortcoming when discussing with Aristotle on a previous occasion. Plato seems to suggest that Zeno's dialectic had more depth than Socrates' simple questioning. Here, he might be reflecting on how his own thinking evolved when he first closely engaged with the Eleatic and Megarian philosophers, whether at Megara or elsewhere. However, Parmenides does recognize that Socrates advanced beyond them by trying to apply Zeno's paradoxes to ideas; this is also the application he makes later in the dialogue. He then goes on to explain the kind of mental exercises Socrates should practice. He should consider not only what follows from a given hypothesis but also what follows from denying it, with respect to the subject of the hypothesis and everything else. There is no indication in Xenophon's Memorabilia that Socrates was associated with any such method; nor is the dialectic mentioned here the 'favorite method' of using structured divisions, which is described in the Phaedrus and Philebus, with examples found in the Politicus and in the Sophist. It is specifically noted as the method Socrates witnessed Zeno using in his youth (compare Soph.).
The discussion of Socrates with Parmenides is one of the most remarkable passages in Plato. Few writers have ever been able to anticipate 'the criticism of the morrow' on their favourite notions. But Plato may here be said to anticipate the judgment not only of the morrow, but of all after-ages on the Platonic Ideas. For in some points he touches questions which have not yet received their solution in modern philosophy.
The conversation between Socrates and Parmenides is one of the most impressive sections in Plato. Few authors have ever managed to predict 'the criticism of the future' regarding their beloved ideas. But here, Plato seems to foresee not just the judgment of the future but also that of all ages to come on the Platonic Ideas. He raises questions that remain unresolved in modern philosophy.
The first difficulty which Parmenides raises respecting the Platonic ideas relates to the manner in which individuals are connected with them. Do they participate in the ideas, or do they merely resemble them? Parmenides shows that objections may be urged against either of these modes of conceiving the connection. Things are little by partaking of littleness, great by partaking of greatness, and the like. But they cannot partake of a part of greatness, for that will not make them great, etc.; nor can each object monopolise the whole. The only answer to this is, that 'partaking' is a figure of speech, really corresponding to the processes which a later logic designates by the terms 'abstraction' and 'generalization.' When we have described accurately the methods or forms which the mind employs, we cannot further criticize them; at least we can only criticize them with reference to their fitness as instruments of thought to express facts.
The first problem that Parmenides raises about Platonic ideas concerns how individuals are linked to them. Do individuals participate in the ideas, or do they just resemble them? Parmenides points out that there are objections to both ways of understanding this connection. Things are small by participating in smallness, large by participating in largeness, and so on. But they can't participate in part of largeness because that wouldn’t make them large, and similarly, no object can possess the whole. The only response to this is that 'participating' is a figure of speech, really corresponding to the processes that later logic refers to as 'abstraction' and 'generalization.' Once we accurately describe the methods or forms that the mind uses, we can't criticize them any further; at least, we can only critique them based on how well they serve as tools for thought to express facts.
Socrates attempts to support his view of the ideas by the parallel of the day, which is one and in many places; but he is easily driven from his position by a counter illustration of Parmenides, who compares the idea of greatness to a sail. He truly explains to Socrates that he has attained the conception of ideas by a process of generalization. At the same time, he points out a difficulty, which appears to be involved—viz. that the process of generalization will go on to infinity. Socrates meets the supposed difficulty by a flash of light, which is indeed the true answer 'that the ideas are in our minds only.' Neither realism is the truth, nor nominalism is the truth, but conceptualism; and conceptualism or any other psychological theory falls very far short of the infinite subtlety of language and thought.
Socrates tries to defend his idea of concepts by comparing them to day, which is one but can be found in many places. However, he is quickly challenged by Parmenides, who likens the concept of greatness to a sail. Parmenides explains to Socrates that he understands concepts through a process of generalization. At the same time, he highlights a problem that seems to be inherent—namely, that the process of generalization could go on forever. Socrates addresses this issue with a sudden realization, revealing the true answer: "that the concepts exist only in our minds." Neither realism nor nominalism holds the truth, but rather conceptualism; and while conceptualism or any psychological theory offers insights, they all fall short of capturing the infinite complexity of language and thought.
But the realism of ancient philosophy will not admit of this answer, which is repelled by Parmenides with another truth or half-truth of later philosophy, 'Every subject or subjective must have an object.' Here is the great though unconscious truth (shall we say?) or error, which underlay the early Greek philosophy. 'Ideas must have a real existence;' they are not mere forms or opinions, which may be changed arbitrarily by individuals. But the early Greek philosopher never clearly saw that true ideas were only universal facts, and that there might be error in universals as well as in particulars.
But the realism of ancient philosophy won’t accept this answer, which Parmenides counters with a later philosophical truth or half-truth: 'Every subject or subjective must have an object.' Here lies the significant, albeit often unrecognized, truth (shall we say?) or mistake that underpinned early Greek philosophy. 'Ideas must have a real existence;' they aren't just random forms or opinions that people can change at will. However, early Greek philosophers never fully understood that true ideas were merely universal facts, and that there could be errors in universals just like there are in specifics.
Socrates makes one more attempt to defend the Platonic Ideas by representing them as paradigms; this is again answered by the 'argumentum ad infinitum.' We may remark, in passing, that the process which is thus described has no real existence. The mind, after having obtained a general idea, does not really go on to form another which includes that, and all the individuals contained under it, and another and another without end. The difficulty belongs in fact to the Megarian age of philosophy, and is due to their illogical logic, and to the general ignorance of the ancients respecting the part played by language in the process of thought. No such perplexity could ever trouble a modern metaphysician, any more than the fallacy of 'calvus' or 'acervus,' or of 'Achilles and the tortoise.' These 'surds' of metaphysics ought to occasion no more difficulty in speculation than a perpetually recurring fraction in arithmetic.
Socrates makes one more attempt to defend the Platonic Ideas by portraying them as models; this leads to another response using the 'argumentum ad infinitum.' It’s worth noting that the process described here doesn’t really exist. Once the mind has grasped a general idea, it doesn’t actually keep forming another that includes that one, and all the individuals within it, and then another and another endlessly. This issue actually stems from the Megarian era of philosophy, which is tied to their faulty logic and the general lack of understanding among ancient thinkers regarding the role of language in the thought process. A modern metaphysician wouldn’t be troubled by this kind of confusion any more than by the fallacy of 'calvus' or 'acervus,' or the paradox of 'Achilles and the tortoise.' These metaphysical 'nonsensicals' shouldn't pose any more difficulty in contemplation than a fraction that keeps repeating in arithmetic.
It is otherwise with the objection which follows: How are we to bridge the chasm between human truth and absolute truth, between gods and men? This is the difficulty of philosophy in all ages: How can we get beyond the circle of our own ideas, or how, remaining within them, can we have any criterion of a truth beyond and independent of them? Parmenides draws out this difficulty with great clearness. According to him, there are not only one but two chasms: the first, between individuals and the ideas which have a common name; the second, between the ideas in us and the ideas absolute. The first of these two difficulties mankind, as we may say, a little parodying the language of the Philebus, have long agreed to treat as obsolete; the second remains a difficulty for us as well as for the Greeks of the fourth century before Christ, and is the stumbling-block of Kant's Kritik, and of the Hamiltonian adaptation of Kant, as well as of the Platonic ideas. It has been said that 'you cannot criticize Revelation.' 'Then how do you know what is Revelation, or that there is one at all,' is the immediate rejoinder—'You know nothing of things in themselves.' 'Then how do you know that there are things in themselves?' In some respects, the difficulty pressed harder upon the Greek than upon ourselves. For conceiving of God more under the attribute of knowledge than we do, he was more under the necessity of separating the divine from the human, as two spheres which had no communication with one another.
It's different with the following objection: How do we bridge the gap between human truth and absolute truth, between gods and people? This is the challenge of philosophy throughout history: How can we move beyond our own ideas, or how, while staying within them, can we find any criteria for a truth that exists independent of them? Parmenides clearly highlights this difficulty. He suggests that there are not just one but two gaps: the first, between individuals and the ideas that share a common name; the second, between our ideas and absolute ideas. Humanity has largely agreed to treat the first issue as outdated, but the second remains a challenge for us, just as it was for the Greeks in the fourth century B.C. This is the stumbling block in Kant's Kritik, in the Hamiltonian interpretation of Kant, and in Platonic ideas. It's been said that "you cannot criticize Revelation." The immediate response is, "Then how do you know what Revelation is, or even if it exists?"— "You know nothing of things in themselves." The reply would be, "Then how do you know that things in themselves exist?" In some ways, this difficulty was more pressing for the Greeks than it is for us. Because they conceptualized God more through the lens of knowledge than we do, they faced a greater need to separate the divine from the human as two realms that didn’t communicate with each other.
It is remarkable that Plato, speaking by the mouth of Parmenides, does not treat even this second class of difficulties as hopeless or insoluble. He says only that they cannot be explained without a long and laborious demonstration: 'The teacher will require superhuman ability, and the learner will be hard of understanding.' But an attempt must be made to find an answer to them; for, as Socrates and Parmenides both admit, the denial of abstract ideas is the destruction of the mind. We can easily imagine that among the Greek schools of philosophy in the fourth century before Christ a panic might arise from the denial of universals, similar to that which arose in the last century from Hume's denial of our ideas of cause and effect. Men do not at first recognize that thought, like digestion, will go on much the same, notwithstanding any theories which may be entertained respecting the nature of the process. Parmenides attributes the difficulties in which Socrates is involved to a want of comprehensiveness in his mode of reasoning; he should consider every question on the negative as well as the positive hypothesis, with reference to the consequences which flow from the denial as well as from the assertion of a given statement.
It’s interesting that Plato, through Parmenides, doesn’t see even this second set of challenges as impossible or unsolvable. He merely states that they can’t be explained without a lengthy and difficult demonstration: 'The teacher will need superhuman ability, and the learner will find it hard to understand.' However, an effort must be made to address them; as both Socrates and Parmenides agree, denying abstract ideas would be a blow to the mind. We can easily imagine a scenario in the Greek philosophical schools of the fourth century BC where panic might arise from denying universals, similar to the panic seen last century from Hume's denial of our concepts of cause and effect. People often don’t realize that thought, much like digestion, will continue in much the same way, regardless of any theories we might have about the nature of the process. Parmenides believes the issues Socrates faces stem from a lack of thoroughness in his reasoning; he should evaluate every question considering both the negative and positive hypotheses, regarding the outcomes that arise from both denying and asserting a given statement.
The argument which follows is the most singular in Plato. It appears to be an imitation, or parody, of the Zenonian dialectic, just as the speeches in the Phaedrus are an imitation of the style of Lysias, or as the derivations in the Cratylus or the fallacies of the Euthydemus are a parody of some contemporary Sophist. The interlocutor is not supposed, as in most of the other Platonic dialogues, to take a living part in the argument; he is only required to say 'Yes' and 'No' in the right places. A hint has been already given that the paradoxes of Zeno admitted of a higher application. This hint is the thread by which Plato connects the two parts of the dialogue.
The following argument is one of the most unique in Plato’s work. It seems to be a mockery or imitation of Zeno’s dialectic, similar to how the speeches in the Phaedrus imitate Lysias’s style, or how the word origins in the Cratylus and the fallacies in the Euthydemus parody some contemporary sophists. The other speaker isn’t expected, as in most of Plato’s dialogues, to actively participate in the argument; they simply need to respond with 'Yes' or 'No' at the appropriate moments. A suggestion has already been made that Zeno’s paradoxes could have a deeper significance. This suggestion serves as the connection between the two parts of the dialogue.
The paradoxes of Parmenides seem trivial to us, because the words to which they relate have become trivial; their true nature as abstract terms is perfectly understood by us, and we are inclined to regard the treatment of them in Plato as a mere straw-splitting, or legerdemain of words. Yet there was a power in them which fascinated the Neoplatonists for centuries afterwards. Something that they found in them, or brought to them—some echo or anticipation of a great truth or error, exercised a wonderful influence over their minds. To do the Parmenides justice, we should imagine similar aporiai raised on themes as sacred to us, as the notions of One or Being were to an ancient Eleatic. 'If God is, what follows? If God is not, what follows?' Or again: If God is or is not the world; or if God is or is not many, or has or has not parts, or is or is not in the world, or in time; or is or is not finite or infinite. Or if the world is or is not; or has or has not a beginning or end; or is or is not infinite, or infinitely divisible. Or again: if God is or is not identical with his laws; or if man is or is not identical with the laws of nature. We can easily see that here are many subjects for thought, and that from these and similar hypotheses questions of great interest might arise. And we also remark, that the conclusions derived from either of the two alternative propositions might be equally impossible and contradictory.
The paradoxes of Parmenides might seem trivial to us now because the terms they refer to have lost their significance; we fully understand them as abstract concepts and often see Plato's analysis as just playing with words. However, these ideas had a profound impact that captivated the Neoplatonists for centuries. They found something in these paradoxes—maybe an echo or a hint of a significant truth or error—that deeply influenced their thinking. To really appreciate Parmenides, we should imagine similar philosophical puzzles focused on topics that are sacred to us today, like the concepts of One or Being were to an ancient Eleatic. "If God exists, what follows? If God does not exist, what follows?" Or, what if God is or isn't the world; what if God is or isn't many, has or doesn't have parts, is or isn't within the world, or exists in time; or is or isn't finite or infinite? What if the world exists or doesn't exist; or has or doesn't have a beginning or an end; or is or isn't infinite, or infinitely divisible? Additionally, what if God is or isn't identical to his laws; or if humanity is or isn't identical to the laws of nature? It's clear there are plenty of subjects for contemplation, and from these and similar ideas, intriguing questions could emerge. We also notice that the conclusions drawn from either of the two opposing statements could be equally impossible and contradictory.
When we ask what is the object of these paradoxes, some have answered that they are a mere logical puzzle, while others have seen in them an Hegelian propaedeutic of the doctrine of Ideas. The first of these views derives support from the manner in which Parmenides speaks of a similar method being applied to all Ideas. Yet it is hard to suppose that Plato would have furnished so elaborate an example, not of his own but of the Eleatic dialectic, had he intended only to give an illustration of method. The second view has been often overstated by those who, like Hegel himself, have tended to confuse ancient with modern philosophy. We need not deny that Plato, trained in the school of Cratylus and Heracleitus, may have seen that a contradiction in terms is sometimes the best expression of a truth higher than either (compare Soph.). But his ideal theory is not based on antinomies. The correlation of Ideas was the metaphysical difficulty of the age in which he lived; and the Megarian and Cynic philosophy was a 'reductio ad absurdum' of their isolation. To restore them to their natural connexion and to detect the negative element in them is the aim of Plato in the Sophist. But his view of their connexion falls very far short of the Hegelian identity of Being and Not-being. The Being and Not-being of Plato never merge in each other, though he is aware that 'determination is only negation.'
When we ask what the purpose of these paradoxes is, some say they are just a logical puzzle, while others see them as a Hegelian introduction to the doctrine of Ideas. The first view is supported by how Parmenides describes a similar method being applied to all Ideas. However, it’s hard to believe that Plato would have provided such a detailed example, not of his own but of the Eleatic dialectic, if he only wanted to illustrate a method. The second view has often been overstated by those, like Hegel himself, who tend to confuse ancient and modern philosophy. We don’t have to deny that Plato, who was trained in the school of Cratylus and Heraclitus, may have recognized that a contradiction in terms can sometimes best express a truth that transcends either one (see Soph.). But his theory of ideas isn’t based on contradictions. The relationship of Ideas was the key metaphysical challenge of his time, and the Megarian and Cynic philosophies represented a 'reductio ad absurdum' of their separation. Plato's goal in the Sophist is to reconnect them naturally and to reveal the negative aspect within them. However, his understanding of their connection falls significantly short of the Hegelian concept of the unity of Being and Not-being. Plato’s Being and Not-being never blend into one another, even though he recognizes that 'determination is only negation.'
After criticizing the hypotheses of others, it may appear presumptuous to add another guess to the many which have been already offered. May we say, in Platonic language, that we still seem to see vestiges of a track which has not yet been taken? It is quite possible that the obscurity of the Parmenides would not have existed to a contemporary student of philosophy, and, like the similar difficulty in the Philebus, is really due to our ignorance of the mind of the age. There is an obscure Megarian influence on Plato which cannot wholly be cleared up, and is not much illustrated by the doubtful tradition of his retirement to Megara after the death of Socrates. For Megara was within a walk of Athens (Phaedr.), and Plato might have learned the Megarian doctrines without settling there.
After criticizing the theories of others, it might seem bold to propose yet another idea among the many that have already been suggested. Can we express, in Platonic terms, that we still seem to notice hints of a path that hasn’t been explored yet? It’s quite possible that the confusion surrounding the Parmenides wouldn’t have existed for a philosopher at the time, and, like the similar challenges in the Philebus, it’s really due to our lack of understanding of the mindset of that era. There’s a vague Megarian influence on Plato that can’t be fully explained and isn’t really illuminated by the uncertain stories of his retreat to Megara after Socrates' death. After all, Megara was just a short walk from Athens (Phaedr.), and Plato could have picked up the Megarian ideas without ever moving there.
We may begin by remarking that the theses of Parmenides are expressly said to follow the method of Zeno, and that the complex dilemma, though declared to be capable of universal application, is applied in this instance to Zeno's familiar question of the 'one and many.' Here, then, is a double indication of the connexion of the Parmenides with the Eristic school. The old Eleatics had asserted the existence of Being, which they at first regarded as finite, then as infinite, then as neither finite nor infinite, to which some of them had given what Aristotle calls 'a form,' others had ascribed a material nature only. The tendency of their philosophy was to deny to Being all predicates. The Megarians, who succeeded them, like the Cynics, affirmed that no predicate could be asserted of any subject; they also converted the idea of Being into an abstraction of Good, perhaps with the view of preserving a sort of neutrality or indifference between the mind and things. As if they had said, in the language of modern philosophy: 'Being is not only neither finite nor infinite, neither at rest nor in motion, but neither subjective nor objective.'
We can start by noting that Parmenides’ arguments are clearly said to follow Zeno’s method, and while the complex dilemma is said to apply universally, in this case, it's specifically aimed at Zeno's well-known question about the 'one and many.' Thus, there are two clear signs connecting Parmenides to the Eristic school. The ancient Eleatics claimed the existence of Being, which they initially viewed as finite, then as infinite, and later as neither finite nor infinite; some attributed what Aristotle referred to as 'a form' to it, while others only gave it a material nature. Their philosophy aimed to remove all attributes from Being. The Megarians, who followed them, much like the Cynics, asserted that no attribute could be claimed for any subject; they transformed the concept of Being into an abstraction of Good, likely to maintain a kind of neutrality or indifference between the mind and reality. In modern philosophical terms, they might as well have said: 'Being is not only neither finite nor infinite, neither at rest nor in motion, but neither subjective nor objective.'
This is the track along which Plato is leading us. Zeno had attempted to prove the existence of the one by disproving the existence of the many, and Parmenides seems to aim at proving the existence of the subject by showing the contradictions which follow from the assertion of any predicates. Take the simplest of all notions, 'unity'; you cannot even assert being or time of this without involving a contradiction. But is the contradiction also the final conclusion? Probably no more than of Zeno's denial of the many, or of Parmenides' assault upon the Ideas; no more than of the earlier dialogues 'of search.' To us there seems to be no residuum of this long piece of dialectics. But to the mind of Parmenides and Plato, 'Gott-betrunkene Menschen,' there still remained the idea of 'being' or 'good,' which could not be conceived, defined, uttered, but could not be got rid of. Neither of them would have imagined that their disputation ever touched the Divine Being (compare Phil.). The same difficulties about Unity and Being are raised in the Sophist; but there only as preliminary to their final solution.
This is the path that Plato is guiding us along. Zeno tried to prove that the one exists by disproving the many, and Parmenides seems to aim at proving the existence of a subject by showing the contradictions that arise from claiming any predicates. Take the most basic idea, 'unity'; you can't even talk about being or time in relation to this without running into a contradiction. But is the contradiction the ultimate conclusion? Probably not, any more than Zeno's rejection of the many or Parmenides' critique of the Ideas; it's no more conclusive than the earlier dialogues that focused on 'search.' To us, it seems there’s nothing left from this long piece of reasoning. But in the minds of Parmenides and Plato, the 'divine intoxicated individuals,' the concept of 'being' or 'good' still lingered, which couldn't be fully grasped, defined, or expressed, yet couldn’t be dismissed either. Neither of them would have thought that their debate ever touched on the Divine Being (see Phil.). The same issues regarding Unity and Being come up in the Sophist, but there, they're just a starting point for their ultimate resolution.
If this view is correct, the real aim of the hypotheses of Parmenides is to criticize the earlier Eleatic philosophy from the point of view of Zeno or the Megarians. It is the same kind of criticism which Plato has extended to his own doctrine of Ideas. Nor is there any want of poetical consistency in attributing to the 'father Parmenides' the last review of the Eleatic doctrines. The latest phases of all philosophies were fathered upon the founder of the school.
If this view is accurate, the main goal of Parmenides' hypotheses is to critique the earlier Eleatic philosophy from the perspective of Zeno or the Megarians. It's a similar type of criticism that Plato applied to his own theory of Ideas. There's also no lack of poetic consistency in giving 'father Parmenides' the final assessment of Eleatic doctrines. The newest developments in all philosophies were attributed to the founder of the school.
Other critics have regarded the final conclusion of the Parmenides either as sceptical or as Heracleitean. In the first case, they assume that Plato means to show the impossibility of any truth. But this is not the spirit of Plato, and could not with propriety be put into the mouth of Parmenides, who, in this very dialogue, is urging Socrates, not to doubt everything, but to discipline his mind with a view to the more precise attainment of truth. The same remark applies to the second of the two theories. Plato everywhere ridicules (perhaps unfairly) his Heracleitean contemporaries: and if he had intended to support an Heracleitean thesis, would hardly have chosen Parmenides, the condemner of the 'undiscerning tribe who say that things both are and are not,' to be the speaker. Nor, thirdly, can we easily persuade ourselves with Zeller that by the 'one' he means the Idea; and that he is seeking to prove indirectly the unity of the Idea in the multiplicity of phenomena.
Other critics have viewed the final conclusion of the Parmenides as either skeptical or aligned with Heraclitus. In the first case, they believe that Plato aims to demonstrate the impossibility of any truth. However, this does not reflect Plato's true intentions and wouldn't rightly be attributed to Parmenides, who, in this very dialogue, encourages Socrates not to doubt everything, but to train his mind to more accurately grasp truth. The same point applies to the second of the two theories. Plato frequently mocks (perhaps unfairly) his Heraclitean contemporaries; if he intended to support a Heraclitean position, he probably wouldn't have chosen Parmenides, the critic of the 'unthinking crowd who claim that things both are and are not,' as the speaker. Lastly, we cannot easily agree with Zeller that by the 'one' he means the Idea, suggesting that he is trying to indirectly prove the unity of the Idea within the diversity of phenomena.
We may now endeavour to thread the mazes of the labyrinth which Parmenides knew so well, and trembled at the thought of them.
We can now try to navigate the complex paths of the labyrinth that Parmenides understood so well and feared the thought of.
The argument has two divisions: There is the hypothesis that
The argument has two parts: First, there’s the hypothesis that
1. One is. 2. One is not. If one is, it is nothing. If one is not, it is everything. But is and is not may be taken in two senses: Either one is one, Or, one has being, from which opposite consequences are deduced, 1.a. If one is one, it is nothing. 1.b. If one has being, it is all things. To which are appended two subordinate consequences: 1.aa. If one has being, all other things are. 1.bb. If one is one, all other things are not. The same distinction is then applied to the negative hypothesis: 2.a. If one is not one, it is all things. 2.b. If one has not being, it is nothing. Involving two parallel consequences respecting the other or remainder: 2.aa. If one is not one, other things are all. 2.bb. If one has not being, other things are not.
1. One exists. 2. One does not exist. If one exists, it means nothing. If one does not exist, it means everything. But "is" and "is not" can be understood in two ways: Either one is one, Or, one has existence, which leads to opposite conclusions: 1.a. If one is one, it means nothing. 1.b. If one has existence, it means all things. This leads to two additional conclusions: 1.aa. If one has existence, everything else exists. 1.bb. If one is one, everything else does not exist. The same distinction applies to the negative hypothesis: 2.a. If one is not one, it means all things. 2.b. If one does not have existence, it means nothing. This involves two parallel conclusions regarding the other or remainder: 2.aa. If one is not one, other things exist completely. 2.bb. If one does not have existence, other things do not exist.
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Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.
'I cannot refuse,' said Parmenides, 'since, as Zeno remarks, we are alone, though I may say with Ibycus, who in his old age fell in love, I, like the old racehorse, tremble at the prospect of the course which I am to run, and which I know so well. But as I must attempt this laborious game, what shall be the subject? Suppose I take my own hypothesis of the one.' 'By all means,' said Zeno. 'And who will answer me? Shall I propose the youngest? he will be the most likely to say what he thinks, and his answers will give me time to breathe.' 'I am the youngest,' said Aristoteles, 'and at your service; proceed with your questions.'—The result may be summed up as follows:—
"I can’t refuse," said Parmenides, "since, as Zeno points out, we’re alone. But I must admit, like Ibycus, who fell in love in his old age, I feel like an old racehorse trembling at the thought of the track I’m about to run, which I know so well. But since I have to take on this challenging task, what should the topic be? How about I go with my own idea of the one." "Of course," said Zeno. "And who will respond to me? Should I choose the youngest? He’s more likely to express his thoughts, and his answers will give me a moment to catch my breath." "I’m the youngest," said Aristoteles, "and I’m here for you; go ahead with your questions."—The outcome can be summarized as follows:—
1.a. One is not many, and therefore has no parts, and therefore is not a whole, which is a sum of parts, and therefore has neither beginning, middle, nor end, and is therefore unlimited, and therefore formless, being neither round nor straight, for neither round nor straight can be defined without assuming that they have parts; and therefore is not in place, whether in another which would encircle and touch the one at many points; or in itself, because that which is self-containing is also contained, and therefore not one but two. This being premised, let us consider whether one is capable either of motion or rest. For motion is either change of substance, or motion on an axis, or from one place to another. But the one is incapable of change of substance, which implies that it ceases to be itself, or of motion on an axis, because there would be parts around the axis; and any other motion involves change of place. But existence in place has been already shown to be impossible; and yet more impossible is coming into being in place, which implies partial existence in two places at once, or entire existence neither within nor without the same; and how can this be? And more impossible still is the coming into being either as a whole or parts of that which is neither a whole nor parts. The one, then, is incapable of motion. But neither can the one be in anything, and therefore not in the same, whether itself or some other, and is therefore incapable of rest. Neither is one the same with itself or any other, or other than itself or any other. For if other than itself, then other than one, and therefore not one; and, if the same with other, it would be other, and other than one. Neither can one while remaining one be other than other; for other, and not one, is the other than other. But if not other by virtue of being one, not by virtue of itself; and if not by virtue of itself, not itself other, and if not itself other, not other than anything. Neither will one be the same with itself. For the nature of the same is not that of the one, but a thing which becomes the same with anything does not become one; for example, that which becomes the same with the many becomes many and not one. And therefore if the one is the same with itself, the one is not one with itself; and therefore one and not one. And therefore one is neither other than other, nor the same with itself. Neither will the one be like or unlike itself or other; for likeness is sameness of affections, and the one and the same are different. And one having any affection which is other than being one would be more than one. The one, then, cannot have the same affection with and therefore cannot be like itself or other; nor can the one have any other affection than its own, that is, be unlike itself or any other, for this would imply that it was more than one. The one, then, is neither like nor unlike itself or other. This being the case, neither can the one be equal or unequal to itself or other. For equality implies sameness of measure, as inequality implies a greater or less number of measures. But the one, not having sameness, cannot have sameness of measure; nor a greater or less number of measures, for that would imply parts and multitude. Once more, can one be older or younger than itself or other? or of the same age with itself or other? That would imply likeness and unlikeness, equality and inequality. Therefore one cannot be in time, because that which is in time is ever becoming older and younger than itself, (for older and younger are relative terms, and he who becomes older becomes younger,) and is also of the same age with itself. None of which, or any other expressions of time, whether past, future, or present, can be affirmed of one. One neither is, has been, nor will be, nor becomes, nor has, nor will become. And, as these are the only modes of being, one is not, and is not one. But to that which is not, there is no attribute or relative, neither name nor word nor idea nor science nor perception nor opinion appertaining. One, then, is neither named, nor uttered, nor known, nor perceived, nor imagined. But can all this be true? 'I think not.'
1.a. One is not many, so it doesn’t have parts, and therefore isn’t a whole, which is made up of parts. It has no beginning, middle, or end, and is therefore unlimited and formless, being neither round nor straight, since you can't define round or straight without assuming they have parts. So, it doesn't occupy space, either in something that would surround and touch the one at many points, or within itself, because something that contains itself is also contained, making it not one but two. With this in mind, let's see if one can experience motion or rest. Motion is either a change of substance, movement around an axis, or moving from one place to another. But the one can't change its substance, as that would mean it stops being itself, nor can it move around an axis since that would imply parts around the axis; any other motion would involve changing location. But we've already shown that existing in space is impossible, and it's even more impossible to come into being in space, which would mean partially existing in two places at once or completely existing neither inside nor outside the same space; how could that even happen? Even more impossible is coming into being as a whole or as parts of something that is neither a whole nor parts. So, the one cannot move. But the one also can’t exist within anything, whether that’s itself or something else, so it can’t find rest either. The one isn’t the same as itself or anything else, and it’s also not different from itself or anything else. If it were different from itself, it would be different from one, so it wouldn’t be one; and if it were the same as something else, it would be something else, which is not one. The one can’t be different from other while still being one; because being other, not one, is what defines being other. But if it’s not different just because it’s one, it’s not different in essence; and if it’s not different in essence, it’s not other, and if it’s not other in any way, it’s not different from anything. The one can’t even be the same as itself. The essence of being the same isn't that of the one, but when something becomes the same as many, it becomes many and not one. Therefore, if the one is the same as itself, it’s still not one with itself; so it’s one and not one at the same time. Thus, the one is neither different from other nor the same as itself. The one can't be similar or dissimilar to itself or anything else; because similarity means sharing characteristics, and the one and the same are distinct. If the one had any characteristic apart from being one, it would imply it’s more than one. So, the one can't have the same characteristic as itself and therefore can’t be like itself or anything else. Nor can the one have any characteristic other than its own, meaning it can’t be unlike itself or anything else, because that would suggest it’s more than one. The one is neither like nor unlike itself or anything else. Given this, the one can't be equal or unequal to itself or anything else. Equality means having the same measure, while inequality suggests a greater or lesser count of measures. But since the one doesn’t have sameness, it can't have the same measure; nor can it have a greater or lesser number of measures, as that would imply parts and a multitude. Once again, can one be older or younger than itself or anything else? Or the same age as itself or anything else? That would mean similarity and dissimilarity, equality and inequality. Hence, one cannot exist in time, because being in time means constantly becoming older and younger than itself (since older and younger are relative terms, whoever becomes older also becomes younger), and also being the same age as itself. None of this, or any expressions of time, whether past, future, or present, can be attributed to one. One is neither exists, has existed, nor will exist, nor does it come into being, nor does it have or will it become. These are the only modes of being, so one is not, and is not one. But for that which is not, there’s no attribute or relation, no name, word, idea, science, perception, or opinion associated with it. Therefore, one isn’t named, spoken, known, perceived, or imagined. But can all this really be true? "I don’t think so."
1.b. Let us, however, commence the inquiry again. We have to work out all the consequences which follow on the assumption that the one is. If one is, one partakes of being, which is not the same with one; the words 'being' and 'one' have different meanings. Observe the consequence: In the one of being or the being of one are two parts, being and one, which form one whole. And each of the two parts is also a whole, and involves the other, and may be further subdivided into one and being, and is therefore not one but two; and thus one is never one, and in this way the one, if it is, becomes many and infinite. Again, let us conceive of a one which by an effort of abstraction we separate from being: will this abstract one be one or many? You say one only; let us see. In the first place, the being of one is other than one; and one and being, if different, are so because they both partake of the nature of other, which is therefore neither one nor being; and whether we take being and other, or being and one, or one and other, in any case we have two things which separately are called either, and together both. And both are two and either of two is severally one, and if one be added to any of the pairs, the sum is three; and two is an even number, three an odd; and two units exist twice, and therefore there are twice two; and three units exist thrice, and therefore there are thrice three, and taken together they give twice three and thrice two: we have even numbers multiplied into even, and odd into even, and even into odd numbers. But if one is, and both odd and even numbers are implied in one, must not every number exist? And number is infinite, and therefore existence must be infinite, for all and every number partakes of being; therefore being has the greatest number of parts, and every part, however great or however small, is equally one. But can one be in many places and yet be a whole? If not a whole it must be divided into parts and represented by a number corresponding to the number of the parts. And if so, we were wrong in saying that being has the greatest number of parts; for being is coequal and coextensive with one, and has no more parts than one; and so the abstract one broken up into parts by being is many and infinite. But the parts are parts of a whole, and the whole is their containing limit, and the one is therefore limited as well as infinite in number; and that which is a whole has beginning, middle, and end, and a middle is equidistant from the extremes; and one is therefore of a certain figure, round or straight, or a combination of the two, and being a whole includes all the parts which are the whole, and is therefore self-contained. But then, again, the whole is not in the parts, whether all or some. Not in all, because, if in all, also in one; for, if wanting in any one, how in all?—not in some, because the greater would then be contained in the less. But if not in all, nor in any, nor in some, either nowhere or in other. And if nowhere, nothing; therefore in other. The one as a whole, then, is in another, but regarded as a sum of parts is in itself; and is, therefore, both in itself and in another. This being the case, the one is at once both at rest and in motion: at rest, because resting in itself; in motion, because it is ever in other. And if there is truth in what has preceded, one is the same and not the same with itself and other. For everything in relation to every other thing is either the same with it or other; or if neither the same nor other, then in the relation of part to a whole or whole to a part. But one cannot be a part or whole in relation to one, nor other than one; and is therefore the same with one. Yet this sameness is again contradicted by one being in another place from itself which is in the same place; this follows from one being in itself and in another; one, therefore, is other than itself. But if anything is other than anything, will it not be other than other? And the not one is other than the one, and the one than the not one; therefore one is other than all others. But the same and the other exclude one another, and therefore the other can never be in the same; nor can the other be in anything for ever so short a time, as for that time the other will be in the same. And the other, if never in the same, cannot be either in the one or in the not one. And one is not other than not one, either by reason of other or of itself; and therefore they are not other than one another at all. Neither can the not one partake or be part of one, for in that case it would be one; nor can the not one be number, for that also involves one. And therefore, not being other than the one or related to the one as a whole to parts or parts to a whole, not one is the same as one. Wherefore the one is the same and also not the same with the others and also with itself; and is therefore like and unlike itself and the others, and just as different from the others as they are from the one, neither more nor less. But if neither more nor less, equally different; and therefore the one and the others have the same relations. This may be illustrated by the case of names: when you repeat the same name twice over, you mean the same thing; and when you say that the other is other than the one, or the one other than the other, this very word other (eteron), which is attributed to both, implies sameness. One, then, as being other than others, and other as being other than one, are alike in that they have the relation of otherness; and likeness is similarity of relations. And everything as being other of everything is also like everything. Again, same and other, like and unlike, are opposites: and since in virtue of being other than the others the one is like them, in virtue of being the same it must be unlike. Again, one, as having the same relations, has no difference of relation, and is therefore not unlike, and therefore like; or, as having different relations, is different and unlike. Thus, one, as being the same and not the same with itself and others—for both these reasons and for either of them—is also like and unlike itself and the others. Again, how far can one touch itself and the others? As existing in others, it touches the others; and as existing in itself, touches only itself. But from another point of view, that which touches another must be next in order of place; one, therefore, must be next in order of place to itself, and would therefore be two, and in two places. But one cannot be two, and therefore cannot be in contact with itself. Nor again can one touch the other. Two objects are required to make one contact; three objects make two contacts; and all the objects in the world, if placed in a series, would have as many contacts as there are objects, less one. But if one only exists, and not two, there is no contact. And the others, being other than one, have no part in one, and therefore none in number, and therefore two has no existence, and therefore there is no contact. For all which reasons, one has and has not contact with itself and the others.
1.b. Let’s start the inquiry again. We need to figure out all the consequences that follow from the assumption that the one exists. If one exists, it shares in being, which is not the same as one; the terms 'being' and 'one' have different meanings. Notice this consequence: In the one of being or the being of one, there are two parts, being and one, which together form a whole. Each of these parts is also a whole, involves the other, and can be further divided into one and being, leading to the conclusion that it is not one but two; therefore, one is never just one. In this way, if the one exists, it becomes many and infinite. Again, let’s imagine a one that we cleanly separate from being through abstraction: will this abstract one be one or many? You might say one only; let’s take a look. First, the being of one is different from one; and one and being, if they are different, are so because they both involve the nature of other, which is neither one nor being. Whether we consider being and other, or being and one, or one and other, we always have two things that are called either individually and together both. Both are two and either of the two is one, and if we add one to any of the pairs, the total is three; two is an even number, three is odd; two units exist twice, leading to twice two; three units exist thrice, resulting in thrice three, and taken together they give twice three and thrice two: we have even numbers multiplied by even, and odd by even, and even by odd numbers. But if one exists, and both odd and even numbers are implied in one, doesn’t that mean every number exists? And numbers are infinite, which means existence must also be infinite because all numbers participate in being. Thus, being has the greatest number of parts, and every part, no matter how large or small, is equally one. But can one be in multiple places and still be a whole? If it’s not a whole, it has to be divided into parts, represented by a number corresponding to the parts. If that's the case, we were mistaken in saying that being has the greatest number of parts; because being is equal and extends the same as one, and has no more parts than one. So the abstract one, broken into parts by being, becomes many and infinite. However, the parts are parts of a whole, and the whole is their containing limit, meaning the one is both limited and infinite in number; and what is whole has a beginning, middle, and end, with a middle being equidistant from the extremes. Therefore, one has a specific form, whether round or straight, or a combination of the two, and being a whole includes all the parts that constitute the whole, and is thus self-contained. But again, the whole is not in the parts, whether all or some. Not in all, because if it were in all, it would also be in one; because if it were missing from even one, how could it be in all?—not in some, because then the greater would be contained in the lesser. If it's not in all, nor in any, nor in some, then it's either nowhere or in something else. If it's nowhere, then it’s nothing; so it must be in something else. The one as a whole is then in another, but viewed as a sum of parts, it is in itself; thus, it exists both in itself and in another. Because of this, the one is both at rest and in motion: it is at rest because it is resting in itself; it is in motion because it is always in other. If what has come before is true, the one is both the same as and different from itself and from others. Everything in relation to everything else is either the same or different; if it's neither the same nor different, it's in the relationship of part to whole or whole to part. But one cannot be a part or whole in relation to itself, nor other than itself; thus, it is the same as one. Yet this sameness is contradicted by one being in a different place than itself, but in the same place; this arises from one being in itself and in another; therefore, one is other than itself. But if anything is other than anything, must it not also be other than other? The not one is other than the one, and the one is other than the not one; thus, one is other than all others. But the same and the other exclude each other, and therefore the other can never exist in the same; nor can the other be in anything for even a brief moment, since during that time the other will be in the same. And since the other can never be in the same, it cannot be in either the one or the not one. And one is neither other than not one, either because of the other or because of itself; and therefore, they are not different from one another at all. Neither can the not one participate in or be part of one; in such a case, it would be one; nor can the not one be a number, because that also involves one. Therefore, not being different from the one or related to the one as a whole relates to parts or parts to a whole, not one is the same as one. Thus, the one is both the same and not the same with the others and with itself; and is therefore both like and unlike itself and others, equally different from the others as they are from the one, neither more nor less. But if neither more nor less, then equally different; hence, the one and the others share the same relations. This can be illustrated with names: when you repeat the same name two times, you mean the same thing; and when you assert that the other is different from the one, or the one is different from the other, that very term 'other' (eteron), which is used for both, implies sameness. So one, as being other than others, and other as being other than one, are alike in that they share the relation of otherness; and likeness is a similarity of relations. Everything as being other than everything is also like everything. Furthermore, same and other, like and unlike, are opposites: and since by being other than the others the one is like them, by being the same it must be unlike. Again, one, having the same relations, shows no difference in relation, and is therefore not unlike, thus it is like; or, as having different relations, is different and unlike. So, one, in being the same and not the same with itself and the others—for both these reasons and either of them—is also like and unlike itself and the others. Now, how can one interact with itself and the others? As existing in others, it interacts with the others; and as existing in itself, it only touches itself. But from another angle, what touches another must be next in place; therefore, one must be next in order of place to itself, which would then mean it is two, and in two places. But one cannot be two, and therefore cannot physically touch itself. Nor can one touch the other. Two objects are needed to create one contact; three objects create two contacts; and all the objects in the world, if lined up, would have as many contacts as there are objects, minus one. But if only one exists and not two, there is no contact. And the others, being different from one, have no part in one, thus none in number, meaning two does not exist, and consequently there is no contact. For all these reasons, one both does and does not have contact with itself and with the others.
Once more, Is one equal and unequal to itself and the others? Suppose one and the others to be greater or less than each other or equal to one another, they will be greater or less or equal by reason of equality or greatness or smallness inhering in them in addition to their own proper nature. Let us begin by assuming smallness to be inherent in one: in this case the inherence is either in the whole or in a part. If the first, smallness is either coextensive with the whole one, or contains the whole, and, if coextensive with the one, is equal to the one, or if containing the one will be greater than the one. But smallness thus performs the function of equality or of greatness, which is impossible. Again, if the inherence be in a part, the same contradiction follows: smallness will be equal to the part or greater than the part; therefore smallness will not inhere in anything, and except the idea of smallness there will be nothing small. Neither will greatness; for greatness will have a greater;—and there will be no small in relation to which it is great. And there will be no great or small in objects, but greatness and smallness will be relative only to each other; therefore the others cannot be greater or less than the one; also the one can neither exceed nor be exceeded by the others, and they are therefore equal to one another. And this will be true also of the one in relation to itself: one will be equal to itself as well as to the others (talla). Yet one, being in itself, must also be about itself, containing and contained, and is therefore greater and less than itself. Further, there is nothing beside the one and the others; and as these must be in something, they must therefore be in one another; and as that in which a thing is is greater than the thing, the inference is that they are both greater and less than one another, because containing and contained in one another. Therefore the one is equal to and greater and less than itself or other, having also measures or parts or numbers equal to or greater or less than itself or other.
Once again, is one both equal and unequal to itself and to others? If we consider one and the others to be greater, lesser, or equal to each other, then their differences in size are due to some qualities of equality, greatness, or smallness beyond their inherent nature. Let’s assume that smallness is inherent in one: in this case, it must be in the whole or in a part. If it’s in the whole, smallness is either the same as the whole one or includes the whole, meaning if it’s the same as the one, it’s equal to it, or if it includes the one, it must be greater than it. But smallness cannot simultaneously function as both equality and greatness, which is impossible. If smallness exists in a part, we reach the same contradiction: smallness will be equal to the part or greater than it. Therefore, smallness cannot exist in anything; apart from the concept of smallness, nothing can be considered small. The same applies to greatness; for greatness must have something greater than itself, and without something small to compare to, it cannot exist. Objects themselves do not possess qualities of great or small; instead, greatness and smallness are only relevant to each other, which means the others cannot be greater or lesser than the one; likewise, the one cannot surpass or be surpassed by the others, making them all equal to each other. This equality also applies to the one in relation to itself: one is equal to itself as well as to the others. However, since one exists by itself, it must also be about itself, being both contained and containing, and thus it is greater and lesser than itself. Furthermore, there is nothing outside of the one and the others; since they must exist within something, they exist within one another; and since that which contains something is larger than the thing, it follows that they are both greater and lesser than each other, since they contain and are contained within one another. Therefore, one is equal to, greater than, and less than itself or the others, having measures or parts or numbers that are equal to, greater than, or less than itself or the others.
But does one partake of time? This must be acknowledged, if the one partakes of being. For 'to be' is the participation of being in present time, 'to have been' in past, 'to be about to be' in future time. And as time is ever moving forward, the one becomes older than itself; and therefore younger than itself; and is older and also younger when in the process of becoming it arrives at the present; and it is always older and younger, for at any moment the one is, and therefore it becomes and is not older and younger than itself but during an equal time with itself, and is therefore contemporary with itself.
But does one really experience time? This is something we have to recognize if we acknowledge existence. To "be" is to engage with the present moment, "to have been" refers to the past, and "to be about to be" looks forward to the future. As time continuously moves forward, a person becomes older than they were; yet, they can also feel younger. They are both older and younger when they reach the present moment, always in a state of becoming. At any given moment, one exists, so they are neither older nor younger than themselves but rather existing simultaneously with themselves.
And what are the relations of the one to the others? Is it or does it become older or younger than they? At any rate the others are more than one, and one, being the least of all numbers, must be prior in time to greater numbers. But on the other hand, one must come into being in a manner accordant with its own nature. Now one has parts or others, and has therefore a beginning, middle, and end, of which the beginning is first and the end last. And the parts come into existence first; last of all the whole, contemporaneously with the end, being therefore younger, while the parts or others are older than the one. But, again, the one comes into being in each of the parts as much as in the whole, and must be of the same age with them. Therefore one is at once older and younger than the parts or others, and also contemporaneous with them, for no part can be a part which is not one. Is this true of becoming as well as being? Thus much may be affirmed, that the same things which are older or younger cannot become older or younger in a greater degree than they were at first by the addition of equal times. But, on the other hand, the one, if older than others, has come into being a longer time than they have. And when equal time is added to a longer and shorter, the relative difference between them is diminished. In this way that which was older becomes younger, and that which was younger becomes older, that is to say, younger and older than at first; and they ever become and never have become, for then they would be. Thus the one and others always are and are becoming and not becoming younger and also older than one another. And one, partaking of time and also partaking of becoming older and younger, admits of all time, present, past, and future—was, is, shall be—was becoming, is becoming, will become. And there is science of the one, and opinion and name and expression, as is already implied in the fact of our inquiry.
What are the relationships between one and the others? Is one older or younger than the others? Regardless, there are multiple others, and since one is the smallest of all numbers, it must come before larger numbers in time. On the flip side, one must come into existence in a way that fits its own nature. One has parts or others, which means it has a beginning, middle, and end, with the beginning being first and the end being last. The parts come into existence first; finally, the whole comes into being along with the end, making it younger, while the parts or others are older than one. However, one exists in each of the parts as much as in the whole and must be the same age as them. Therefore, one is simultaneously older and younger than the parts or others and also exists at the same time as them since no part can exist without being one. Is this true for becoming as well as being? It can be affirmed that things that are older or younger cannot become any older or younger beyond what they originally were by simply adding equal time. On the other hand, if one is older than the others, it has existed longer than they have. When equal time is added to both a longer and a shorter duration, the relative difference between them decreases. In this way, what was older becomes younger, and what was younger becomes older, meaning they become younger and older compared to their initial state; they are in a state of continuous becoming and never truly are, otherwise they would simply exist. Thus, one and the others are always in existence and in a state of becoming, never fully becoming younger or older than each other. And one, which experiences time and is subject to becoming older and younger, encompasses all time—past, present, and future—existing as has been, is, and will be; was becoming, is becoming, will become. There exists knowledge of the one, along with opinion, name, and expression, as suggested by the nature of our inquiry.
Yet once more, if one be one and many, and neither one nor many, and also participant of time, must there not be a time at which one as being one partakes of being, and a time when one as not being one is deprived of being? But these two contradictory states cannot be experienced by the one both together: there must be a time of transition. And the transition is a process of generation and destruction, into and from being and not-being, the one and the others. For the generation of the one is the destruction of the others, and the generation of the others is the destruction of the one. There is also separation and aggregation, assimilation and dissimilation, increase, diminution, equalization, a passage from motion to rest, and from rest to motion in the one and many. But when do all these changes take place? When does motion become rest, or rest motion? The answer to this question will throw a light upon all the others. Nothing can be in motion and at rest at the same time; and therefore the change takes place 'in a moment'—which is a strange expression, and seems to mean change in no time. Which is true also of all the other changes, which likewise take place in no time.
Yet again, if something can be both one and many, and neither one nor many, and also part of time, isn’t there a moment when it exists as one and experiences being, and a moment when it doesn’t exist as one and is without being? These two opposing states can’t be experienced by the one simultaneously: there has to be a moment of transition. This transition is a process of coming into existence and falling out of existence, of being and not being, the one and the others. The coming into existence of the one entails the falling out of existence of the others, and the coming into existence of the others entails the falling out of existence of the one. There’s also splitting apart and coming together, blending and separating, growth, reduction, balancing, a shift from movement to stillness, and from stillness to movement in the one and many. But when do all these changes occur? When does movement turn into stillness, or stillness turn into movement? The answer to this question will shed light on all the others. Nothing can be both moving and still at the same time; therefore, the change happens 'in a moment'—a curious phrase that suggests change occurs in no time. This is also true for all the other changes, which likewise happen in no time.
1.aa. But if one is, what happens to the others, which in the first place are not one, yet may partake of one in a certain way? The others are other than the one because they have parts, for if they had no parts they would be simply one, and parts imply a whole to which they belong; otherwise each part would be a part of many, and being itself one of them, of itself, and if a part of all, of each one of the other parts, which is absurd. For a part, if not a part of one, must be a part of all but this one, and if so not a part of each one; and if not a part of each one, not a part of any one of many, and so not of one; and if of none, how of all? Therefore a part is neither a part of many nor of all, but of an absolute and perfect whole or one. And if the others have parts, they must partake of the whole, and must be the whole of which they are the parts. And each part, as the word 'each' implies, is also an absolute one. And both the whole and the parts partake of one, for the whole of which the parts are parts is one, and each part is one part of the whole; and whole and parts as participating in one are other than one, and as being other than one are many and infinite; and however small a fraction you separate from them is many and not one. Yet the fact of their being parts furnishes the others with a limit towards other parts and towards the whole; they are finite and also infinite: finite through participation in the one, infinite in their own nature. And as being finite, they are alike; and as being infinite, they are alike; but as being both finite and also infinite, they are in the highest degree unlike. And all other opposites might without difficulty be shown to unite in them.
1.aa. But if one exists, what happens to the others that aren’t one to begin with, yet can somehow relate to one? The others are different from the one because they have parts; if they didn’t have parts, they would simply be one, and parts imply a whole that they belong to. Otherwise, each part would belong to many wholes, and being one of those, it would have to belong to each of the other parts, which is absurd. A part, if not part of one, has to be part of all except for this one, and if that’s the case, it can’t be part of each one; if it’s not part of each one, it’s not part of any of the many, and therefore not of one; and if it’s of none, how can it be of all? So, a part isn’t part of many or of all, but of a complete and perfect whole or one. If the others have parts, they must be part of the whole, and they must constitute the whole of which they are parts. Each part, as the word ‘each’ suggests, is also a complete one. Both the whole and the parts are connected to one; the whole that the parts are part of is one, and each part is one part of that whole. The whole and the parts, as participants in one, are different from one, and being different from one, they are many and infinite; and no matter how small a fraction you take from them, it’s still many and not one. However, their being parts gives the others a limit with respect to other parts and the whole; they are finite yet also infinite: finite because they participate in the one, infinite by their own nature. They are alike in being finite and alike in being infinite, but because they are both finite and infinite, they are, in the highest degree, unlike. And all other opposites could easily be shown to unite in them.
1.bb. Once more, leaving all this: Is there not also an opposite series of consequences which is equally true of the others, and may be deduced from the existence of one? There is. One is distinct from the others, and the others from one; for one and the others are all things, and there is no third existence besides them. And the whole of one cannot be in others nor parts of it, for it is separated from others and has no parts, and therefore the others have no unity, nor plurality, nor duality, nor any other number, nor any opposition or distinction, such as likeness and unlikeness, some and other, generation and corruption, odd and even. For if they had these they would partake either of one opposite, and this would be a participation in one; or of two opposites, and this would be a participation in two. Thus if one exists, one is all things, and likewise nothing, in relation to one and to the others.
1.bb. Again, leaving all of this behind: Is there not also a contrasting series of consequences that is equally true for the others and can be inferred from the existence of one? There is. One is separate from the others, and the others are distinct from one; for one and the others represent all things, and there is no third existence beyond them. The entirety of one cannot be found in others, nor can its parts, because it is separated from the others and has no components. Therefore, the others lack unity, plurality, duality, or any other number, as well as any form of opposition or distinction, like similarity and difference, some and other, creation and destruction, odd and even. If they did possess these qualities, they would either share in one opposite, which would mean participating in one; or in two opposites, which would imply participating in two. So if one exists, it encompasses all things, and at the same time, nothing, in relation to one and to the others.
2.a. But, again, assume the opposite hypothesis, that the one is not, and what is the consequence? In the first place, the proposition, that one is not, is clearly opposed to the proposition, that not one is not. The subject of any negative proposition implies at once knowledge and difference. Thus 'one' in the proposition—'The one is not,' must be something known, or the words would be unintelligible; and again this 'one which is not' is something different from other things. Moreover, this and that, some and other, may be all attributed or related to the one which is not, and which though non-existent may and must have plurality, if the one only is non-existent and nothing else; but if all is not-being there is nothing which can be spoken of. Also the one which is not differs, and is different in kind from the others, and therefore unlike them; and they being other than the one, are unlike the one, which is therefore unlike them. But one, being unlike other, must be like itself; for the unlikeness of one to itself is the destruction of the hypothesis; and one cannot be equal to the others; for that would suppose being in the one, and the others would be equal to one and like one; both which are impossible, if one does not exist. The one which is not, then, if not equal is unequal to the others, and in equality implies great and small, and equality lies between great and small, and therefore the one which is not partakes of equality. Further, the one which is not has being; for that which is true is, and it is true that the one is not. And so the one which is not, if remitting aught of the being of non-existence, would become existent. For not being implies the being of not-being, and being the not-being of not-being; or more truly being partakes of the being of being and not of the being of not-being, and not-being of the being of not-being and not of the not-being of not-being. And therefore the one which is not has being and also not-being. And the union of being and not-being involves change or motion. But how can not-being, which is nowhere, move or change, either from one place to another or in the same place? And whether it is or is not, it would cease to be one if experiencing a change of substance. The one which is not, then, is both in motion and at rest, is altered and unaltered, and becomes and is destroyed, and does not become and is not destroyed.
2.a. But, let’s assume the opposite idea: what if one is not? What happens then? First, the statement that one is not clearly contradicts the statement that at least one is. The subject of any negative statement suggests both knowledge and a distinction. So, 'one' in the statement—'The one is not'—has to be something we know, or the words wouldn’t make sense; and this 'one that is not' is different from other things. Additionally, this and that, some and others, can all be connected to the one that is not, which, despite being non-existent, must have plurality if only the one doesn’t exist and nothing else does; but if everything is non-being, then there’s nothing to talk about. Furthermore, the one that is not is different and distinct in nature from the others, making it unlike them; and since they are different from the one, it is therefore unlike them. But the one, being unlike the others, has to be like itself; because if it were not, it would destroy the assumption. Also, the one can't be equal to the others; doing so would imply that the one possesses being, and the others would be equal to and like the one; both of which are impossible if the one doesn’t exist. So, the one that is not, if it is not equal, is unequal to the others, and equality includes great and small, while equality lies between great and small; thus, the one that is not shares in equality. Moreover, the one that is not has being; because what is true exists, and it is true that the one is not. Therefore, if the one that is not relinquishes anything about the being of non-existence, it would become existent. Not being suggests the being of not-being, and being suggests the not-being of not-being; or more accurately, being shares in the being of being and not in the being of not-being, while not-being shares in the being of not-being and not in the not-being of not-being. So, the one that is not possesses both being and non-being. The combination of being and non-being entails change or motion. But how can not-being, which exists nowhere, move or change, whether from one place to another or within the same space? And whether it is or it is not, it would cease to be one if it experiences a change in substance. Therefore, the one that is not is both in motion and at rest, it is altered and unaltered, it becomes and is destroyed, and it does not become and is not destroyed.
2.b. Once more, let us ask the question, If one is not, what happens in regard to one? The expression 'is not' implies negation of being:—do we mean by this to say that a thing, which is not, in a certain sense is? or do we mean absolutely to deny being of it? The latter. Then the one which is not can neither be nor become nor perish nor experience change of substance or place. Neither can rest, or motion, or greatness, or smallness, or equality, or unlikeness, or likeness either to itself or other, or attribute or relation, or now or hereafter or formerly, or knowledge or opinion or perception or name or anything else be asserted of that which is not.
2.b. Once again, let’s ask the question: If something doesn’t exist, what does that mean for it? The phrase "does not exist" suggests a denial of being—are we saying that something that doesn’t exist, in some sense, does exist? Or are we completely denying its existence? The latter. Therefore, something that doesn’t exist cannot be, become, perish, or undergo any change in substance or location. It also cannot have rest, motion, size, proportion, similarity, or dissimilarity to itself or anything else, nor can it have attributes, relations, or exist in the past, present, or future, or have knowledge, beliefs, perceptions, names, or anything else associated with it.
2.aa. Once more, if one is not, what becomes of the others? If we speak of them they must be, and their very name implies difference, and difference implies relation, not to the one, which is not, but to one another. And they are others of each other not as units but as infinities, the least of which is also infinity, and capable of infinitesimal division. And they will have no unity or number, but only a semblance of unity and number; and the least of them will appear large and manifold in comparison with the infinitesimal fractions into which it may be divided. Further, each particle will have the appearance of being equal with the fractions. For in passing from the greater to the less it must reach an intermediate point, which is equality. Moreover, each particle although having a limit in relation to itself and to other particles, yet it has neither beginning, middle, nor end; for there is always a beginning before the beginning, and a middle within the middle, and an end beyond the end, because the infinitesimal division is never arrested by the one. Thus all being is one at a distance, and broken up when near, and like at a distance and unlike when near; and also the particles which compose being seem to be like and unlike, in rest and motion, in generation and corruption, in contact and separation, if one is not.
2.aa. Once again, if one doesn’t exist, what happens to the others? If we talk about them, they must exist, and their name itself suggests difference, which means relation—not to the one that doesn’t exist, but to each other. They are others of each other not as separate units but as infinities, the smallest of which is still infinite and can be divided infinitely. They will have no true unity or count, only an illusion of unity and count; even the smallest of them will seem large and numerous compared to the infinitesimal portions it can be divided into. Furthermore, each particle will seem equal to the fractions. Because when moving from the larger to the smaller, there must be an intermediate point, which represents equality. Additionally, each particle, while having limits in relation to itself and to other particles, has no true beginning, middle, or end; there is always a beginning before the beginning, a middle within the middle, and an end beyond the end, because infinitesimal division never stops at one. Thus, all existence seems unified from afar but appears broken up when closer; it seems alike from a distance and different up close. The particles that make up existence appear both similar and different, in stillness and motion, in creation and destruction, in contact and separation, if one doesn’t exist.
2.bb. Once more, let us inquire, If the one is not, and the others of the one are, what follows? In the first place, the others will not be the one, nor the many, for in that case the one would be contained in them; neither will they appear to be one or many; because they have no communion or participation in that which is not, nor semblance of that which is not. If one is not, the others neither are, nor appear to be one or many, like or unlike, in contact or separation. In short, if one is not, nothing is.
2.bb. Let's ask again, if the one doesn't exist, and the others of the one do, what happens next? First, the others won't be the one or many, because if they were, the one would be included in them; they also won’t seem to be one or many because they have no connection or involvement with what doesn’t exist, nor do they resemble what doesn’t exist. If the one doesn’t exist, then neither do the others, nor do they seem to be one or many, similar or different, together or apart. In short, if the one doesn’t exist, nothing exists.
The result of all which is, that whether one is or is not, one and the others, in relation to themselves and to one another, are and are not, and appear to be and appear not to be, in all manner of ways.
The outcome of all this is that whether someone is or isn't, they and others, in relation to themselves and each other, are and aren't, and seem to be and seem not to be, in all sorts of ways.
I. On the first hypothesis we may remark: first, That one is one is an identical proposition, from which we might expect that no further consequences could be deduced. The train of consequences which follows, is inferred by altering the predicate into 'not many.' Yet, perhaps, if a strict Eristic had been present, oios aner ei kai nun paren, he might have affirmed that the not many presented a different aspect of the conception from the one, and was therefore not identical with it. Such a subtlety would be very much in character with the Zenonian dialectic. Secondly, We may note, that the conclusion is really involved in the premises. For one is conceived as one, in a sense which excludes all predicates. When the meaning of one has been reduced to a point, there is no use in saying that it has neither parts nor magnitude. Thirdly, The conception of the same is, first of all, identified with the one; and then by a further analysis distinguished from, and even opposed to it. Fourthly, We may detect notions, which have reappeared in modern philosophy, e.g. the bare abstraction of undefined unity, answering to the Hegelian 'Seyn,' or the identity of contradictions 'that which is older is also younger,' etc., or the Kantian conception of an a priori synthetical proposition 'one is.'
I. Regarding the first hypothesis, we can observe the following: first, "one is one" is an identical statement, and we might think that no further conclusions could be drawn from it. However, the chain of implications that follows is derived by changing the predicate to "not many." Yet, if a strict debate had been present, as someone might argue, it could be said that "not many" presents a different perspective of the idea from "one" and is therefore not identical with it. This kind of nuance fits well with Zenonian logic. Secondly, it's important to note that the conclusion is inherently contained within the premises. "One" is understood as one in a way that excludes all other predicates. When the concept of "one" is boiled down to its essence, there’s no point in claiming it has no parts or size. Thirdly, the idea of "the same" is first aligned with "one," and then through further analysis, it is differentiated from and even contrasted with it. Fourthly, we can identify concepts that have resurfaced in modern philosophy, such as the pure abstraction of undefined unity, correlating with Hegel's notion of 'Seyn,' or the identity of contradictions like "what is older is also younger," and the Kantian idea of an a priori synthetic proposition "one is."
II. In the first series of propositions the word 'is' is really the copula; in the second, the verb of existence. As in the first series, the negative consequence followed from one being affirmed to be equivalent to the not many; so here the affirmative consequence is deduced from one being equivalent to the many.
II. In the first set of statements, the word 'is' really acts as a linking verb; in the second, it indicates existence. Just as in the first set, the negative outcome arises from one being declared equivalent to the not many; here, the positive outcome is derived from one being equivalent to the many.
In the former case, nothing could be predicated of the one, but now everything—multitude, relation, place, time, transition. One is regarded in all the aspects of one, and with a reference to all the consequences which flow, either from the combination or the separation of them. The notion of transition involves the singular extra-temporal conception of 'suddenness.' This idea of 'suddenness' is based upon the contradiction which is involved in supposing that anything can be in two places at once. It is a mere fiction; and we may observe that similar antinomies have led modern philosophers to deny the reality of time and space. It is not the infinitesimal of time, but the negative of time. By the help of this invention the conception of change, which sorely exercised the minds of early thinkers, seems to be, but is not really at all explained. The difficulty arises out of the imperfection of language, and should therefore be no longer regarded as a difficulty at all. The only way of meeting it, if it exists, is to acknowledge that this rather puzzling double conception is necessary to the expression of the phenomena of motion or change, and that this and similar double notions, instead of being anomalies, are among the higher and more potent instruments of human thought.
In the past, nothing could be said about the one, but now everything—number, relationship, location, time, change—can be considered. One is viewed from all angles, with attention to the outcomes that come from either combining or separating them. The idea of change brings in the unique concept of 'suddenness' that exists outside of time. This idea is rooted in the contradiction of thinking that anything can exist in two places at the same time. It’s just a fantasy, and we can see that similar contradictions have led modern philosophers to question the reality of time and space. It’s not the tiny bits of time that are the issue, but rather the negation of time itself. Thanks to this idea, the concept of change, which puzzled early thinkers, seems to be explained, even if it really isn’t. The problem comes from the limitations of language and shouldn’t be seen as a real problem anymore. The only way to address it, if it even exists, is to recognize that this somewhat confusing dual concept is essential for describing the phenomena of motion or change, and that these kinds of dual ideas, rather than being exceptions, are among the more advanced and powerful tools of human thought.
The processes by which Parmenides obtains his remarkable results may be summed up as follows: (1) Compound or correlative ideas which involve each other, such as, being and not-being, one and many, are conceived sometimes in a state of composition, and sometimes of division: (2) The division or distinction is sometimes heightened into total opposition, e.g. between one and same, one and other: or (3) The idea, which has been already divided, is regarded, like a number, as capable of further infinite subdivision: (4) The argument often proceeds 'a dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter' and conversely: (5) The analogy of opposites is misused by him; he argues indiscriminately sometimes from what is like, sometimes from what is unlike in them: (6) The idea of being or not-being is identified with existence or non-existence in place or time: (7) The same ideas are regarded sometimes as in process of transition, sometimes as alternatives or opposites: (8) There are no degrees or kinds of sameness, likeness, difference, nor any adequate conception of motion or change: (9) One, being, time, like space in Zeno's puzzle of Achilles and the tortoise, are regarded sometimes as continuous and sometimes as discrete: (10) In some parts of the argument the abstraction is so rarefied as to become not only fallacious, but almost unintelligible, e.g. in the contradiction which is elicited out of the relative terms older and younger: (11) The relation between two terms is regarded under contradictory aspects, as for example when the existence of the one and the non-existence of the one are equally assumed to involve the existence of the many: (12) Words are used through long chains of argument, sometimes loosely, sometimes with the precision of numbers or of geometrical figures.
The methods Parmenides uses to reach his impressive conclusions can be summarized as follows: (1) He deals with compound or related ideas that depend on each other, like being and not-being, and one and many, which he sometimes views as combined and other times as separate: (2) This separation or distinction can grow into complete opposition, like between one and the same versus one and another: (3) An idea that has already been divided is seen, similar to a number, as capable of endless further division: (4) His arguments often shift from a specific context to a general one and vice versa: (5) He misapplies the analogy of opposites, sometimes drawing conclusions from similarities and at other times from differences: (6) The concepts of being and not-being are linked to existence and non-existence in terms of space or time: (7) The same ideas are viewed as either transitioning or as alternatives or opposites at different times: (8) There are no variations or types of sameness, likeness, or difference, nor is there a clear understanding of motion or change: (9) Concepts like one, being, and time, like space in Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise, are sometimes seen as continuous and sometimes as separate: (10) In parts of the argument, the abstraction becomes so thin that it becomes not only misleading but nearly impossible to understand, such as in the contradiction that arises from the relative terms older and younger: (11) The relationship between two terms is viewed in contradictory ways, as when the existence of one and the non-existence of the same are both thought to imply the existence of many: (12) Words are employed through lengthy chains of reasoning, sometimes imprecisely, other times with numerical or geometrical accuracy.
The argument is a very curious piece of work, unique in literature. It seems to be an exposition or rather a 'reductio ad absurdum' of the Megarian philosophy, but we are too imperfectly acquainted with this last to speak with confidence about it. It would be safer to say that it is an indication of the sceptical, hyperlogical fancies which prevailed among the contemporaries of Socrates. It throws an indistinct light upon Aristotle, and makes us aware of the debt which the world owes to him or his school. It also bears a resemblance to some modern speculations, in which an attempt is made to narrow language in such a manner that number and figure may be made a calculus of thought. It exaggerates one side of logic and forgets the rest. It has the appearance of a mathematical process; the inventor of it delights, as mathematicians do, in eliciting or discovering an unexpected result. It also helps to guard us against some fallacies by showing the consequences which flow from them.
The argument is a really interesting piece of work, one-of-a-kind in literature. It seems to summarize, or rather refute, the Megarian philosophy, but we don't know enough about it to speak confidently. It's safer to say that it reflects the skeptical, overly logical ideas common among Socrates's contemporaries. It sheds some vague light on Aristotle and makes us aware of the debt the world owes to him or his followers. It also resembles some modern theories that try to tighten language so that numbers and figures can become a way of calculating thought. It overemphasizes one aspect of logic and ignores the others. It looks like a mathematical process; its creator, like mathematicians, enjoys uncovering or discovering unexpected results. It also helps protect us from certain fallacies by showing the consequences that arise from them.
In the Parmenides we seem to breathe the spirit of the Megarian philosophy, though we cannot compare the two in detail. But Plato also goes beyond his Megarian contemporaries; he has split their straws over again, and admitted more than they would have desired. He is indulging the analytical tendencies of his age, which can divide but not combine. And he does not stop to inquire whether the distinctions which he makes are shadowy and fallacious, but 'whither the argument blows' he follows.
In the Parmenides, we appear to encounter the essence of Megarian philosophy, though we can't compare the two closely. However, Plato also surpasses his Megarian peers; he has reexamined their ideas and accepted more than they would have wanted. He is indulging the analytical tendencies of his time, which can separate but not unify. And he doesn't pause to question whether the distinctions he makes are misleading and insubstantial, but instead follows wherever the argument leads him.
III. The negative series of propositions contains the first conception of the negation of a negation. Two minus signs in arithmetic or algebra make a plus. Two negatives destroy each other. This abstruse notion is the foundation of the Hegelian logic. The mind must not only admit that determination is negation, but must get through negation into affirmation. Whether this process is real, or in any way an assistance to thought, or, like some other logical forms, a mere figure of speech transferred from the sphere of mathematics, may be doubted. That Plato and the most subtle philosopher of the nineteenth century should have lighted upon the same notion, is a singular coincidence of ancient and modern thought.
III. The negative series of propositions introduces the first idea of the negation of a negation. Two negative signs in arithmetic or algebra equal a positive. Two negatives cancel each other out. This complex idea is the basis of Hegelian logic. The mind needs to not only recognize that determination is negation, but also to move from negation to affirmation. It’s debated whether this process is genuine, useful for thought, or just another logical form that’s merely a figure of speech borrowed from mathematics. It's interesting that Plato and the most insightful philosopher of the nineteenth century arrived at the same idea, highlighting a unique connection between ancient and modern thought.
IV. The one and the many or others are reduced to their strictest arithmetical meaning. That one is three or three one, is a proposition which has, perhaps, given rise to more controversy in the world than any other. But no one has ever meant to say that three and one are to be taken in the same sense. Whereas the one and many of the Parmenides have precisely the same meaning; there is no notion of one personality or substance having many attributes or qualities. The truth seems to be rather the opposite of that which Socrates implies: There is no contradiction in the concrete, but in the abstract; and the more abstract the idea, the more palpable will be the contradiction. For just as nothing can persuade us that the number one is the number three, so neither can we be persuaded that any abstract idea is identical with its opposite, although they may both inhere together in some external object, or some more comprehensive conception. Ideas, persons, things may be one in one sense and many in another, and may have various degrees of unity and plurality. But in whatever sense and in whatever degree they are one they cease to be many; and in whatever degree or sense they are many they cease to be one.
IV. The concept of one and many, or others, is reduced to its most basic numerical meaning. The statement that one is three or three is one has probably sparked more debate than any other. However, no one has ever claimed that three and one should be understood in the same way. In contrast, the one and many discussed by Parmenides have exactly the same meaning; there is no idea of one personality or substance possessing many attributes or qualities. The truth actually seems to contradict Socrates’ implication: the contradictions arise from the abstract, not the concrete; and the more abstract the idea, the more evident the contradiction. Just as nothing can convince us that the number one is the same as the number three, we cannot be persuaded that any abstract idea is identical to its opposite, even if both exist together in some external object or a broader concept. Ideas, people, and things can be one in one sense and many in another, having various levels of unity and plurality. But in whatever sense and to whatever extent they are one, they stop being many; and in whatever extent or sense they are many, they stop being one.
Two points remain to be considered: 1st, the connexion between the first and second parts of the dialogue; 2ndly, the relation of the Parmenides to the other dialogues.
Two points still need to be considered: 1st, the connection between the first and second parts of the dialogue; 2nd, the relationship of the Parmenides to the other dialogues.
I. In both divisions of the dialogue the principal speaker is the same, and the method pursued by him is also the same, being a criticism on received opinions: first, on the doctrine of Ideas; secondly, of Being. From the Platonic Ideas we naturally proceed to the Eleatic One or Being which is the foundation of them. They are the same philosophy in two forms, and the simpler form is the truer and deeper. For the Platonic Ideas are mere numerical differences, and the moment we attempt to distinguish between them, their transcendental character is lost; ideas of justice, temperance, and good, are really distinguishable only with reference to their application in the world. If we once ask how they are related to individuals or to the ideas of the divine mind, they are again merged in the aboriginal notion of Being. No one can answer the questions which Parmenides asks of Socrates. And yet these questions are asked with the express acknowledgment that the denial of ideas will be the destruction of the human mind. The true answer to the difficulty here thrown out is the establishment of a rational psychology; and this is a work which is commenced in the Sophist. Plato, in urging the difficulty of his own doctrine of Ideas, is far from denying that some doctrine of Ideas is necessary, and for this he is paving the way.
I. In both sections of the dialogue, the main speaker is the same, and he uses the same approach: critiquing accepted beliefs. First, he addresses the concept of Ideas; second, he tackles Being. From the Platonic Ideas, we naturally move to the Eleatic One or Being, which underpins them. They represent the same philosophy in two forms, with the simpler form being the more accurate and profound. Platonic Ideas are just numerical differences, and as soon as we try to differentiate them, their transcendental nature is lost; concepts like justice, temperance, and goodness are really only distinguishable when we consider how they apply in the world. If we ask how they relate to individuals or the divine mind's ideas, they again blend into the original idea of Being. No one can answer the questions Parmenides poses to Socrates. Yet, these questions are raised with the clear understanding that denying Ideas would mean the end of human thought. The true solution to the issues raised here is to establish a rational psychology, a task that begins in the Sophist. Plato, in discussing the challenges of his doctrine of Ideas, does not deny that some doctrine of Ideas is essential, and he is working toward that.
In a similar spirit he criticizes the Eleatic doctrine of Being, not intending to deny Ontology, but showing that the old Eleatic notion, and the very name 'Being,' is unable to maintain itself against the subtleties of the Megarians. He did not mean to say that Being or Substance had no existence, but he is preparing for the development of his later view, that ideas were capable of relation. The fact that contradictory consequences follow from the existence or non-existence of one or many, does not prove that they have or have not existence, but rather that some different mode of conceiving them is required. Parmenides may still have thought that 'Being was,' just as Kant would have asserted the existence of 'things in themselves,' while denying the transcendental use of the Categories.
In a similar vein, he critiques the Eleatic concept of Being, not to dismiss Ontology, but to demonstrate that the traditional Eleatic idea, and the term 'Being' itself, can't hold up against the complexities posed by the Megarians. He’s not claiming that Being or Substance doesn’t exist; rather, he’s setting the stage for his later opinion that ideas can be interrelated. The fact that contradictory outcomes arise from the existence or non-existence of one or many doesn’t prove that they exist or don’t exist, but suggests that a different way of understanding them is needed. Parmenides might still have believed that 'Being is,' much like Kant would affirm the existence of 'things in themselves,' while rejecting the transcendental application of the Categories.
Several lesser links also connect the first and second parts of the dialogue: (1) The thesis is the same as that which Zeno has been already discussing: (2) Parmenides has intimated in the first part, that the method of Zeno should, as Socrates desired, be extended to Ideas: (3) The difficulty of participating in greatness, smallness, equality is urged against the Ideas as well as against the One.
Several minor connections also tie the first and second parts of the dialogue together: (1) The main argument is the same as what Zeno has already talked about; (2) Parmenides hinted in the first part that Zeno's method should, as Socrates wanted, be applied to Ideas as well; (3) The challenges of being part of greatness, smallness, and equality are brought up against the Ideas just like they are against the One.
II. The Parmenides is not only a criticism of the Eleatic notion of Being, but also of the methods of reasoning then in existence, and in this point of view, as well as in the other, may be regarded as an introduction to the Sophist. Long ago, in the Euthydemus, the vulgar application of the 'both and neither' Eristic had been subjected to a similar criticism, which there takes the form of banter and irony, here of illustration.
II. The Parmenides isn't just a critique of the Eleatic concept of Being; it's also a critique of the reasoning methods that were around at the time. In this sense, and in others, it serves as an introduction to the Sophist. Long ago, in the Euthydemus, the superficial use of the 'both and neither' Eristic faced a similar critique, presented there through mocking and irony, and here through examples.
The attack upon the Ideas is resumed in the Philebus, and is followed by a return to a more rational philosophy. The perplexity of the One and Many is there confined to the region of Ideas, and replaced by a theory of classification; the Good arranged in classes is also contrasted with the barren abstraction of the Megarians. The war is carried on against the Eristics in all the later dialogues, sometimes with a playful irony, at other times with a sort of contempt. But there is no lengthened refutation of them. The Parmenides belongs to that stage of the dialogues of Plato in which he is partially under their influence, using them as a sort of 'critics or diviners' of the truth of his own, and of the Eleatic theories. In the Theaetetus a similar negative dialectic is employed in the attempt to define science, which after every effort remains undefined still. The same question is revived from the objective side in the Sophist: Being and Not-being are no longer exhibited in opposition, but are now reconciled; and the true nature of Not-being is discovered and made the basis of the correlation of ideas. Some links are probably missing which might have been supplied if we had trustworthy accounts of Plato's oral teaching.
The attack on the Ideas continues in the Philebus, which shifts towards a more rational philosophy. The confusion between the One and the Many is now focused on the realm of Ideas and replaced with a theory of classification; the Good is organized into categories and contrasted with the empty abstraction from the Megarians. The battle against the Eristics is maintained in all the later dialogues, sometimes with playful irony and other times with a touch of contempt. However, there isn't an extensive refutation of their views. The Parmenides belongs to a stage in Plato's dialogues where he is somewhat influenced by them, using them as critics or interpreters of his own ideas and the Eleatic theories. In the Theaetetus, a similar negative dialectic is used in the effort to define science, which after many attempts remains undefined. The same issue is brought back from an objective perspective in the Sophist: Being and Not-being are no longer shown as opposing forces but are now reconciled, revealing the true nature of Not-being as the basis for the connection of ideas. Some links might be missing that could have been filled in if we had reliable accounts of Plato's oral teachings.
To sum up: the Parmenides of Plato is a critique, first, of the Platonic Ideas, and secondly, of the Eleatic doctrine of Being. Neither are absolutely denied. But certain difficulties and consequences are shown in the assumption of either, which prove that the Platonic as well as the Eleatic doctrine must be remodelled. The negation and contradiction which are involved in the conception of the One and Many are preliminary to their final adjustment. The Platonic Ideas are tested by the interrogative method of Socrates; the Eleatic One or Being is tried by the severer and perhaps impossible method of hypothetical consequences, negative and affirmative. In the latter we have an example of the Zenonian or Megarian dialectic, which proceeded, not 'by assailing premises, but conclusions'; this is worked out and improved by Plato. When primary abstractions are used in every conceivable sense, any or every conclusion may be deduced from them. The words 'one,' 'other,' 'being,' 'like,' 'same,' 'whole,' and their opposites, have slightly different meanings, as they are applied to objects of thought or objects of sense—to number, time, place, and to the higher ideas of the reason;—and out of their different meanings this 'feast' of contradictions 'has been provided.'
To sum it up: Plato's Parmenides critiques, first, the Platonic Ideas and, second, the Eleatic concept of Being. Neither is completely rejected, but certain difficulties and implications in assuming either one show that both the Platonic and Eleatic doctrines need to be rethought. The negation and contradiction involved in the ideas of the One and the Many are necessary steps toward their final resolution. The Platonic Ideas are examined through Socratic questioning, while the Eleatic One or Being is scrutinized by the stricter and possibly impossible method of hypothetical consequences, both negative and positive. In the latter, we see an example of the Zeno's or Megarian dialectic, which worked not by attacking premises but by challenging conclusions; Plato refines and develops this approach. When primary abstractions are applied in every conceivable way, any conclusion can be drawn from them. The terms 'one,' 'other,' 'being,' 'like,' 'same,' 'whole,' and their opposites have slightly varying meanings depending on whether they're applied to concepts or to sensory objects—like number, time, place, and the higher ideas of reason—and from their differing meanings, this 'feast' of contradictions has been created.
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Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.
The Parmenides of Plato belongs to a stage of philosophy which has passed away. At first we read it with a purely antiquarian or historical interest; and with difficulty throw ourselves back into a state of the human mind in which Unity and Being occupied the attention of philosophers. We admire the precision of the language, in which, as in some curious puzzle, each word is exactly fitted into every other, and long trains of argument are carried out with a sort of geometrical accuracy. We doubt whether any abstract notion could stand the searching cross-examination of Parmenides; and may at last perhaps arrive at the conclusion that Plato has been using an imaginary method to work out an unmeaning conclusion. But the truth is, that he is carrying on a process which is not either useless or unnecessary in any age of philosophy. We fail to understand him, because we do not realize that the questions which he is discussing could have had any value or importance. We suppose them to be like the speculations of some of the Schoolmen, which end in nothing. But in truth he is trying to get rid of the stumbling-blocks of thought which beset his contemporaries. Seeing that the Megarians and Cynics were making knowledge impossible, he takes their 'catch-words' and analyzes them from every conceivable point of view. He is criticizing the simplest and most general of our ideas, in which, as they are the most comprehensive, the danger of error is the most serious; for, if they remain unexamined, as in a mathematical demonstration, all that flows from them is affected, and the error pervades knowledge far and wide. In the beginning of philosophy this correction of human ideas was even more necessary than in our own times, because they were more bound up with words; and words when once presented to the mind exercised a greater power over thought. There is a natural realism which says, 'Can there be a word devoid of meaning, or an idea which is an idea of nothing?' In modern times mankind have often given too great importance to a word or idea. The philosophy of the ancients was still more in slavery to them, because they had not the experience of error, which would have placed them above the illusion.
The Parmenides of Plato belongs to a phase of philosophy that's long gone. Initially, we read it out of pure historical curiosity and struggle to immerse ourselves in a mindset where Unity and Being were the primary concerns of philosophers. We appreciate the precision of the language, where, like in a tricky puzzle, every word fits perfectly with the others, and complex arguments are developed with a kind of mathematical accuracy. We question whether any abstract concept could withstand the intense scrutiny of Parmenides, and may ultimately conclude that Plato is employing an imaginary method to reach a meaningless conclusion. But the truth is that he is engaged in a process that is not pointless or unnecessary in any era of philosophy. We fail to grasp his significance because we don't acknowledge that the questions he's raising could hold any value or importance. We might think they are akin to some Schoolmen's speculations that lead nowhere. However, he is attempting to eliminate the obstacles to thought that trouble his contemporaries. Recognizing that the Megarians and Cynics were rendering knowledge impossible, he takes their catchphrases and analyzes them from every possible angle. He is challenging the simplest and most general of our ideas, in which the broadest concepts pose the greatest risk of error; if these ideas go unexamined, similar to a mathematical proof, everything derived from them is tainted, spreading errors widely throughout knowledge. At the dawn of philosophy, this refinement of human ideas was even more essential than it is today, as they were more closely tied to language; and once words entered the mind, they wielded a stronger influence over thought. There’s a natural realism that questions, "Can a word lack meaning, or can there be an idea that refers to nothing?" In modern times, people often give too much weight to a word or concept. Ancient philosophy was even more shackled by these notions because they had not yet experienced the kinds of errors that might have lifted them above such illusions.
The method of the Parmenides may be compared with the process of purgation, which Bacon sought to introduce into philosophy. Plato is warning us against two sorts of 'Idols of the Den': first, his own Ideas, which he himself having created is unable to connect in any way with the external world; secondly, against two idols in particular, 'Unity' and 'Being,' which had grown up in the pre-Socratic philosophy, and were still standing in the way of all progress and development of thought. He does not say with Bacon, 'Let us make truth by experiment,' or 'From these vague and inexact notions let us turn to facts.' The time has not yet arrived for a purely inductive philosophy. The instruments of thought must first be forged, that they may be used hereafter by modern inquirers. How, while mankind were disputing about universals, could they classify phenomena? How could they investigate causes, when they had not as yet learned to distinguish between a cause and an end? How could they make any progress in the sciences without first arranging them? These are the deficiencies which Plato is seeking to supply in an age when knowledge was a shadow of a name only. In the earlier dialogues the Socratic conception of universals is illustrated by his genius; in the Phaedrus the nature of division is explained; in the Republic the law of contradiction and the unity of knowledge are asserted; in the later dialogues he is constantly engaged both with the theory and practice of classification. These were the 'new weapons,' as he terms them in the Philebus, which he was preparing for the use of some who, in after ages, would be found ready enough to disown their obligations to the great master, or rather, perhaps, would be incapable of understanding them.
The method of Parmenides can be compared to the process of cleansing that Bacon wanted to bring into philosophy. Plato warns us about two types of 'Idols of the Den': first, his own Ideas, which he created but can’t connect to the external world; second, he warns against two specific idols, 'Unity' and 'Being,' which came from pre-Socratic philosophy and are still blocking all progress and development in thought. He doesn't say, like Bacon, 'Let’s find truth through experimentation,' or 'Let’s move from these vague and unclear ideas to facts.' The time for a purely inductive philosophy hasn’t arrived yet. The tools of thought must first be created so they can be used later by modern researchers. How could people classify phenomena while they were arguing about universal concepts? How could they investigate causes when they hadn’t yet learned to differentiate between a cause and an effect? How could they progress in the sciences without first organizing them? These are the gaps that Plato aims to fill in a time when knowledge was just a shadow of a name. In the earlier dialogues, the Socratic view of universals is shown through his genius; in the Phaedrus, the concept of division is explained; in the Republic, the law of contradiction and the unity of knowledge are stated; and in the later dialogues, he constantly works on both the theory and practice of classification. These were the 'new tools,' as he calls them in the Philebus, that he was preparing for those who, in later ages, would eagerly reject their debt to the great master or perhaps would simply be unable to grasp it.
Numberless fallacies, as we are often truly told, have originated in a confusion of the 'copula,' and the 'verb of existence.' Would not the distinction which Plato by the mouth of Parmenides makes between 'One is one' and 'One has being' have saved us from this and many similar confusions? We see again that a long period in the history of philosophy was a barren tract, not uncultivated, but unfruitful, because there was no inquiry into the relation of language and thought, and the metaphysical imagination was incapable of supplying the missing link between words and things. The famous dispute between Nominalists and Realists would never have been heard of, if, instead of transferring the Platonic Ideas into a crude Latin phraseology, the spirit of Plato had been truly understood and appreciated. Upon the term substance at least two celebrated theological controversies appear to hinge, which would not have existed, or at least not in their present form, if we had 'interrogated' the word substance, as Plato has the notions of Unity and Being. These weeds of philosophy have struck their roots deep into the soil, and are always tending to reappear, sometimes in new-fangled forms; while similar words, such as development, evolution, law, and the like, are constantly put in the place of facts, even by writers who profess to base truth entirely upon fact. In an unmetaphysical age there is probably more metaphysics in the common sense (i.e. more a priori assumption) than in any other, because there is more complete unconsciousness that we are resting on our own ideas, while we please ourselves with the conviction that we are resting on facts. We do not consider how much metaphysics are required to place us above metaphysics, or how difficult it is to prevent the forms of expression which are ready made for our use from outrunning actual observation and experiment.
Countless misconceptions, as we often hear, have come from confusing the 'copula' with the 'verb of existence.' Wouldn't the distinction that Plato, through Parmenides, makes between 'One is one' and 'One has being' have protected us from this and many similar errors? We see again that a long period in the history of philosophy was a barren stretch—not uncultivated, but unproductive—because there was no exploration of the relationship between language and thought, and the metaphysical imagination couldn't provide the missing connection between words and things. The well-known debate between Nominalists and Realists likely would never have emerged if, rather than translating the Platonic Ideas into a basic Latin terminology, the essence of Plato had been properly understood and appreciated. At least two notable theological disputes seem to hinge on the term substance, which might not have happened, or at least not in their current forms, if we had 'interrogated' the word substance in the way Plato tackled the concepts of Unity and Being. These philosophical weeds have deeply rooted themselves and tend to resurface, sometimes in newfangled forms; while similar terms, like development, evolution, law, and others, often replace facts—even by writers who claim to base truth solely on fact. In a time that lacks metaphysical thought, it's likely that there is more metaphysics in common sense (i.e., more a priori assumptions) than anywhere else since there is a greater unawareness that we are relying on our own ideas, while we comfort ourselves with the belief that we are relying on facts. We don't think about how much metaphysics is necessary to rise above metaphysics, or how hard it is to stop ready-made expressions from outpacing actual observation and experimentation.
In the last century the educated world were astonished to find that the whole fabric of their ideas was falling to pieces, because Hume amused himself by analyzing the word 'cause' into uniform sequence. Then arose a philosophy which, equally regardless of the history of the mind, sought to save mankind from scepticism by assigning to our notions of 'cause and effect,' 'substance and accident,' 'whole and part,' a necessary place in human thought. Without them we could have no experience, and therefore they were supposed to be prior to experience—to be incrusted on the 'I'; although in the phraseology of Kant there could be no transcendental use of them, or, in other words, they were only applicable within the range of our knowledge. But into the origin of these ideas, which he obtains partly by an analysis of the proposition, partly by development of the 'ego,' he never inquires—they seem to him to have a necessary existence; nor does he attempt to analyse the various senses in which the word 'cause' or 'substance' may be employed.
In the last century, educated people were shocked to discover that the entire structure of their ideas was falling apart because Hume entertained himself by breaking down the word 'cause' into a simple sequence. This led to a philosophy that, ignoring the history of thought, aimed to rescue humanity from skepticism by giving our concepts of 'cause and effect', 'substance and accident', 'whole and part' a necessary role in human thinking. Without these concepts, we couldn't have any experiences, and thus they were thought to exist prior to experience—to be ingrained in the 'I'; although in Kant’s terms, they couldn’t be used in a transcendental way, meaning they only applied within the limits of our knowledge. However, he never questions the origin of these ideas, which he derives partly from analyzing the proposition and partly from the development of the 'ego'; they simply seem to him to exist necessarily. He also doesn't examine the different meanings in which the words 'cause' or 'substance' can be used.
The philosophy of Berkeley could never have had any meaning, even to himself, if he had first analyzed from every point of view the conception of 'matter.' This poor forgotten word (which was 'a very good word' to describe the simplest generalization of external objects) is now superseded in the vocabulary of physical philosophers by 'force,' which seems to be accepted without any rigid examination of its meaning, as if the general idea of 'force' in our minds furnished an explanation of the infinite variety of forces which exist in the universe. A similar ambiguity occurs in the use of the favourite word 'law,' which is sometimes regarded as a mere abstraction, and then elevated into a real power or entity, almost taking the place of God. Theology, again, is full of undefined terms which have distracted the human mind for ages. Mankind have reasoned from them, but not to them; they have drawn out the conclusions without proving the premises; they have asserted the premises without examining the terms. The passions of religious parties have been roused to the utmost about words of which they could have given no explanation, and which had really no distinct meaning. One sort of them, faith, grace, justification, have been the symbols of one class of disputes; as the words substance, nature, person, of another, revelation, inspiration, and the like, of a third. All of them have been the subject of endless reasonings and inferences; but a spell has hung over the minds of theologians or philosophers which has prevented them from examining the words themselves. Either the effort to rise above and beyond their own first ideas was too great for them, or there might, perhaps, have seemed to be an irreverence in doing so. About the Divine Being Himself, in whom all true theological ideas live and move, men have spoken and reasoned much, and have fancied that they instinctively know Him. But they hardly suspect that under the name of God even Christians have included two characters or natures as much opposed as the good and evil principle of the Persians.
The philosophy of Berkeley would have had no meaning, even to him, if he had thoroughly analyzed the concept of 'matter' from every angle. This overlooked term (which was 'a very good word' to describe the simplest generalization of external objects) has now been replaced in the language of physical philosophers by 'force,' which is accepted without a thorough examination of its meaning, as if the general idea of 'force' in our minds explains the endless variety of forces that exist in the universe. A similar confusion arises with the commonly used word 'law,' which is sometimes seen as just an abstraction, and at other times elevated to a real power or entity, almost taking the place of God. Theology, too, is filled with vague terms that have puzzled humanity for ages. People have reasoned from these terms, but not about them; they have drawn conclusions without proving the premises; they have asserted the premises without examining the terms. The passions of religious groups have been ignited over words they couldn't define and that lacked any clear meaning. Certain terms, like faith, grace, justification, have become symbols for one class of disputes, while words like substance, nature, person represent another, and revelation, inspiration, and similar terms form yet another category. All these have been the subject of endless reasoning and inferences, but a kind of spell has left theologians and philosophers unable to examine the words themselves. Either the effort to move beyond their initial ideas was too daunting, or it may have seemed irreverent to do so. When it comes to the Divine Being Himself, in whom all true theological ideas live and exist, people have spoken and reasoned extensively, believing they instinctively know Him. Yet they barely realize that under the name of God, even Christians have included two natures that are as opposed as the good and evil principles of the Persians.
To have the true use of words we must compare them with things; in using them we acknowledge that they seldom give a perfect representation of our meaning. In like manner when we interrogate our ideas we find that we are not using them always in the sense which we supposed. And Plato, while he criticizes the inconsistency of his own doctrine of universals and draws out the endless consequences which flow from the assertion either that 'Being is' or that 'Being is not,' by no means intends to deny the existence of universals or the unity under which they are comprehended. There is nothing further from his thoughts than scepticism. But before proceeding he must examine the foundations which he and others have been laying; there is nothing true which is not from some point of view untrue, nothing absolute which is not also relative (compare Republic).
To truly understand words, we need to compare them to things; when we use them, we realize they rarely perfectly capture what we mean. Similarly, when we examine our ideas, we find that we’re not always using them in the way we thought. And Plato, while critiquing the inconsistencies in his own theory of universals and highlighting the endless implications of claiming that 'Being is' or 'Being is not,' does not intend to deny the existence of universals or the unity they represent. Skepticism is the last thing on his mind. But before moving forward, he needs to evaluate the foundations he and others have established; there’s nothing true that isn't, from some perspective, untrue, and nothing absolute that isn't also relative (see Republic).
And so, in modern times, because we are called upon to analyze our ideas and to come to a distinct understanding about the meaning of words; because we know that the powers of language are very unequal to the subtlety of nature or of mind, we do not therefore renounce the use of them; but we replace them in their old connexion, having first tested their meaning and quality, and having corrected the error which is involved in them; or rather always remembering to make allowance for the adulteration or alloy which they contain. We cannot call a new metaphysical world into existence any more than we can frame a new universal language; in thought as in speech, we are dependent on the past. We know that the words 'cause' and 'effect' are very far from representing to us the continuity or the complexity of nature or the different modes or degrees in which phenomena are connected. Yet we accept them as the best expression which we have of the correlation of forces or objects. We see that the term 'law' is a mere abstraction, under which laws of matter and of mind, the law of nature and the law of the land are included, and some of these uses of the word are confusing, because they introduce into one sphere of thought associations which belong to another; for example, order or sequence is apt to be confounded with external compulsion and the internal workings of the mind with their material antecedents. Yet none of them can be dispensed with; we can only be on our guard against the error or confusion which arises out of them. Thus in the use of the word 'substance' we are far from supposing that there is any mysterious substratum apart from the objects which we see, and we acknowledge that the negative notion is very likely to become a positive one. Still we retain the word as a convenient generalization, though not without a double sense, substance, and essence, derived from the two-fold translation of the Greek ousia.
So, in today's world, as we are asked to examine our ideas and reach a clear understanding of the meaning of words; since we know that the capabilities of language fall short of the complexity of nature or the mind, we don't abandon their use. Instead, we reconnect them to their original context after testing their meaning and quality, and correcting the mistakes inherent in them; or rather, we always remember to consider the distortions or impurities they carry. We can’t create a new metaphysical world any more than we can construct a universal language; in thought as in speech, we rely on what has come before us. We understand that the words 'cause' and 'effect' do not fully capture the continuity or complexity of nature or the various ways in which phenomena are related. Yet, we accept them as the best expressions we have for the connection of forces or objects. We recognize that the term 'law' is just an abstraction that encompasses laws of matter and mind, natural law and legal law, and some of these interpretations can be confusing as they mix associations from different areas of thought; for instance, order or sequence may be mistaken for external force, and the internal processes of the mind may be conflated with their material causes. Nevertheless, we can’t do without any of them; we just need to be cautious of the errors or misunderstandings they can create. Thus, in using the word 'substance,' we don't assume there's any mysterious foundation separate from the objects we see, and we acknowledge that what starts as a negative notion is likely to become positive. Still, we keep the word as a handy general term, albeit with a dual meaning, substance and essence, stemming from the two-fold translation of the Greek ousia.
So the human mind makes the reflection that God is not a person like ourselves—is not a cause like the material causes in nature, nor even an intelligent cause like a human agent—nor an individual, for He is universal; and that every possible conception which we can form of Him is limited by the human faculties. We cannot by any effort of thought or exertion of faith be in and out of our own minds at the same instant. How can we conceive Him under the forms of time and space, who is out of time and space? How get rid of such forms and see Him as He is? How can we imagine His relation to the world or to ourselves? Innumerable contradictions follow from either of the two alternatives, that God is or that He is not. Yet we are far from saying that we know nothing of Him, because all that we know is subject to the conditions of human thought. To the old belief in Him we return, but with corrections. He is a person, but not like ourselves; a mind, but not a human mind; a cause, but not a material cause, nor yet a maker or artificer. The words which we use are imperfect expressions of His true nature; but we do not therefore lose faith in what is best and highest in ourselves and in the world.
So the human mind reflects that God isn't a person like us—He isn't a cause like the physical causes in nature, nor even an intelligent cause like a human being—nor is He an individual, because He is universal. Every possible idea we can form of Him is limited by our human abilities. No matter how hard we try to think or believe, we can't be both inside and outside our own minds at the same time. How can we understand Him in terms of time and space when He exists outside of both? How do we free ourselves from these concepts and see Him as He truly is? How can we imagine His relationship with the world or with us? Countless contradictions arise from either asserting that God exists or that He doesn't. But we're not saying we know nothing about Him, because everything we understand is bound by the limits of human thought. We return to the old belief in Him, but with adjustments. He is a person, but not like us; a mind, but not a human mind; a cause, but not a material cause, nor just a creator. The words we use are imperfect representations of His true nature; however, we don't lose faith in what is best and highest in ourselves and in the world.
'A little philosophy takes us away from God; a great deal brings us back to Him.' When we begin to reflect, our first thoughts respecting Him and ourselves are apt to be sceptical. For we can analyze our religious as well as our other ideas; we can trace their history; we can criticize their perversion; we see that they are relative to the human mind and to one another. But when we have carried our criticism to the furthest point, they still remain, a necessity of our moral nature, better known and understood by us, and less liable to be shaken, because we are more aware of their necessary imperfection. They come to us with 'better opinion, better confirmation,' not merely as the inspirations either of ourselves or of another, but deeply rooted in history and in the human mind.
'A little philosophy takes us away from God; a lot brings us back to Him.' When we start to reflect, our initial thoughts about Him and ourselves tend to be doubtful. We can analyze our religious beliefs just like any other ideas; we can track their origins; we can critique their distortions; we see that they relate to the human mind and to each other. But even after we push our criticism as far as it can go, they still stick with us, a necessity of our moral nature, better known and understood by us, and less likely to be shaken, because we recognize their inherent imperfection. They come to us with 'better opinion, better confirmation,' not just as inspirations from ourselves or others, but deeply embedded in history and the human mind.
PARMENIDES
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Cephalus, Adeimantus, Glaucon, Antiphon, Pythodorus, Socrates, Zeno, Parmenides, Aristoteles.
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Cephalus, Adeimantus, Glaucon, Antiphon, Pythodorus, Socrates, Zeno, Parmenides, Aristotle.
Cephalus rehearses a dialogue which is supposed to have been narrated in his presence by Antiphon, the half-brother of Adeimantus and Glaucon, to certain Clazomenians.
Cephalus recounts a dialogue that Antiphon, the half-brother of Adeimantus and Glaucon, is said to have told in front of him to some Clazomenians.
We had come from our home at Clazomenae to Athens, and met Adeimantus and Glaucon in the Agora. Welcome, Cephalus, said Adeimantus, taking me by the hand; is there anything which we can do for you in Athens?
We had traveled from our home in Clazomenae to Athens and met Adeimantus and Glaucon in the Agora. "Welcome, Cephalus," said Adeimantus, shaking my hand; "Is there anything we can do for you while you’re in Athens?"
Yes; that is why I am here; I wish to ask a favour of you.
Yes, that’s why I’m here; I want to ask you for a favor.
What may that be? he said.
What could that be? he said.
I want you to tell me the name of your half brother, which I have forgotten; he was a mere child when I last came hither from Clazomenae, but that was a long time ago; his father's name, if I remember rightly, was Pyrilampes?
I want you to tell me the name of your half-brother, which I’ve forgotten; he was just a kid the last time I came here from Clazomenae, but that was a long time ago; his dad’s name, if I recall correctly, was Pyrilampes?
Yes, he said, and the name of our brother, Antiphon; but why do you ask?
Yes, he said, and our brother's name is Antiphon; but why do you want to know?
Let me introduce some countrymen of mine, I said; they are lovers of philosophy, and have heard that Antiphon was intimate with a certain Pythodorus, a friend of Zeno, and remembers a conversation which took place between Socrates, Zeno, and Parmenides many years ago, Pythodorus having often recited it to him.
Let me introduce some people from my hometown, I said; they are passionate about philosophy and have heard that Antiphon was close to a guy named Pythodorus, who was friends with Zeno, and recalls a conversation that happened many years ago between Socrates, Zeno, and Parmenides, which Pythodorus has often shared with him.
Quite true.
So true.
And could we hear it? I asked.
And could we hear it? I asked.
Nothing easier, he replied; when he was a youth he made a careful study of the piece; at present his thoughts run in another direction; like his grandfather Antiphon he is devoted to horses. But, if that is what you want, let us go and look for him; he dwells at Melita, which is quite near, and he has only just left us to go home.
"Nothing easier," he replied. "When I was younger, I spent a lot of time studying the piece. Nowadays, my interests are different; like my grandfather Antiphon, I'm passionate about horses. But if that's what you need, let's go find him. He lives in Melita, which is pretty close, and he just left us to head home."
Accordingly we went to look for him; he was at home, and in the act of giving a bridle to a smith to be fitted. When he had done with the smith, his brothers told him the purpose of our visit; and he saluted me as an acquaintance whom he remembered from my former visit, and we asked him to repeat the dialogue. At first he was not very willing, and complained of the trouble, but at length he consented. He told us that Pythodorus had described to him the appearance of Parmenides and Zeno; they came to Athens, as he said, at the great Panathenaea; the former was, at the time of his visit, about 65 years old, very white with age, but well favoured. Zeno was nearly 40 years of age, tall and fair to look upon; in the days of his youth he was reported to have been beloved by Parmenides. He said that they lodged with Pythodorus in the Ceramicus, outside the wall, whither Socrates, then a very young man, came to see them, and many others with him; they wanted to hear the writings of Zeno, which had been brought to Athens for the first time on the occasion of their visit. These Zeno himself read to them in the absence of Parmenides, and had very nearly finished when Pythodorus entered, and with him Parmenides and Aristoteles who was afterwards one of the Thirty, and heard the little that remained of the dialogue. Pythodorus had heard Zeno repeat them before.
So we went to look for him; he was at home, fitting a bridle for a blacksmith. Once he was done with the blacksmith, his brothers informed him of our visit's purpose, and he greeted me as someone he remembered from my previous visit. We asked him to go over the dialogue again. At first, he was hesitant and complained about the trouble, but eventually he agreed. He told us that Pythodorus had described how Parmenides and Zeno looked; they had come to Athens during the great Panathenaea. Parmenides was about 65 years old at the time, very gray with age, but still handsome. Zeno was nearly 40, tall and good-looking; in his youth, he was said to have been loved by Parmenides. He said they stayed with Pythodorus in the Ceramicus, outside the wall, where Socrates, then quite young, came to visit them along with many others. They wanted to hear Zeno's writings, which had just been brought to Athens for the first time during their visit. Zeno read these writings to them while Parmenides was absent and was almost finished when Pythodorus arrived, along with Parmenides and Aristotle, who later became one of the Thirty, and caught the last bit of the dialogue. Pythodorus had heard Zeno recite them before.
When the recitation was completed, Socrates requested that the first thesis of the first argument might be read over again, and this having been done, he said: What is your meaning, Zeno? Do you maintain that if being is many, it must be both like and unlike, and that this is impossible, for neither can the like be unlike, nor the unlike like—is that your position?
When the reading was done, Socrates asked for the first thesis of the first argument to be read again. After it was read, he said: What do you mean, Zeno? Do you argue that if being is many, it has to be both similar and different, and that this can't happen, because neither can the similar be different, nor can the different be similar—is that your stance?
Just so, said Zeno.
“Exactly,” said Zeno.
And if the unlike cannot be like, or the like unlike, then according to you, being could not be many; for this would involve an impossibility. In all that you say have you any other purpose except to disprove the being of the many? and is not each division of your treatise intended to furnish a separate proof of this, there being in all as many proofs of the not-being of the many as you have composed arguments? Is that your meaning, or have I misunderstood you?
And if the unlike can’t be like, or the like can’t be unlike, then according to you, existence couldn’t be diverse; that would create an impossibility. In everything you say, do you have any other goal besides disproving the existence of the many? Isn’t each part of your writing meant to provide a different proof of this, with as many proofs of the non-existence of the many as you have written arguments? Is that your point, or have I misunderstood you?
No, said Zeno; you have correctly understood my general purpose.
No, Zeno said; you’ve accurately grasped my overall intention.
I see, Parmenides, said Socrates, that Zeno would like to be not only one with you in friendship but your second self in his writings too; he puts what you say in another way, and would fain make believe that he is telling us something which is new. For you, in your poems, say The All is one, and of this you adduce excellent proofs; and he on the other hand says There is no many; and on behalf of this he offers overwhelming evidence. You affirm unity, he denies plurality. And so you deceive the world into believing that you are saying different things when really you are saying much the same. This is a strain of art beyond the reach of most of us.
I see, Parmenides, said Socrates, that Zeno wants to be not just your friend but also your second self in his writings; he rephrases your ideas and tries to make it seem like he’s sharing something new. You, in your poems, state that everything is one, and you provide great evidence for this. Meanwhile, he claims that there is no many, presenting overwhelming proof for that argument. You assert unity, while he denies plurality. So you both trick the world into thinking you’re saying different things when you’re actually saying very similar things. This level of artistry is beyond most of us.
Yes, Socrates, said Zeno. But although you are as keen as a Spartan hound in pursuing the track, you do not fully apprehend the true motive of the composition, which is not really such an artificial work as you imagine; for what you speak of was an accident; there was no pretence of a great purpose; nor any serious intention of deceiving the world. The truth is, that these writings of mine were meant to protect the arguments of Parmenides against those who make fun of him and seek to show the many ridiculous and contradictory results which they suppose to follow from the affirmation of the one. My answer is addressed to the partisans of the many, whose attack I return with interest by retorting upon them that their hypothesis of the being of many, if carried out, appears to be still more ridiculous than the hypothesis of the being of one. Zeal for my master led me to write the book in the days of my youth, but some one stole the copy; and therefore I had no choice whether it should be published or not; the motive, however, of writing, was not the ambition of an elder man, but the pugnacity of a young one. This you do not seem to see, Socrates; though in other respects, as I was saying, your notion is a very just one.
“Sure, Socrates,” Zeno replied. “But even though you’re as sharp as a Spartan dog when it comes to tracking, you don’t quite grasp the real reason behind the writing, which isn’t as artificial as you think. What you’re talking about was just a coincidence; there was no pretense of a grand purpose or any serious intention to mislead anyone. The truth is, these writings of mine were meant to defend Parmenides’ arguments against those who mock him and try to show the many absurd and contradictory conclusions they believe come from claiming there’s only one thing. My response is directed at the supporters of the many, and I hit back by suggesting that their idea of many beings, if taken to its logical conclusion, seems even more ridiculous than the idea of just one being. My passion for my mentor drove me to write the book when I was younger, but someone stole the copy, so I had no say in whether it should be published. The reason I wrote it wasn’t the ambition of an older person, but the stubbornness of a young one. You don’t seem to see this, Socrates, although, as I was saying, your understanding in other respects is quite accurate.”
I understand, said Socrates, and quite accept your account. But tell me, Zeno, do you not further think that there is an idea of likeness in itself, and another idea of unlikeness, which is the opposite of likeness, and that in these two, you and I and all other things to which we apply the term many, participate—things which participate in likeness become in that degree and manner like; and so far as they participate in unlikeness become in that degree unlike, or both like and unlike in the degree in which they participate in both? And may not all things partake of both opposites, and be both like and unlike, by reason of this participation?—Where is the wonder? Now if a person could prove the absolute like to become unlike, or the absolute unlike to become like, that, in my opinion, would indeed be a wonder; but there is nothing extraordinary, Zeno, in showing that the things which only partake of likeness and unlikeness experience both. Nor, again, if a person were to show that all is one by partaking of one, and at the same time many by partaking of many, would that be very astonishing. But if he were to show me that the absolute one was many, or the absolute many one, I should be truly amazed. And so of all the rest: I should be surprised to hear that the natures or ideas themselves had these opposite qualities; but not if a person wanted to prove of me that I was many and also one. When he wanted to show that I was many he would say that I have a right and a left side, and a front and a back, and an upper and a lower half, for I cannot deny that I partake of multitude; when, on the other hand, he wants to prove that I am one, he will say, that we who are here assembled are seven, and that I am one and partake of the one. In both instances he proves his case. So again, if a person shows that such things as wood, stones, and the like, being many are also one, we admit that he shows the coexistence of the one and many, but he does not show that the many are one or the one many; he is uttering not a paradox but a truism. If however, as I just now suggested, some one were to abstract simple notions of like, unlike, one, many, rest, motion, and similar ideas, and then to show that these admit of admixture and separation in themselves, I should be very much astonished. This part of the argument appears to be treated by you, Zeno, in a very spirited manner; but, as I was saying, I should be far more amazed if any one found in the ideas themselves which are apprehended by reason, the same puzzle and entanglement which you have shown to exist in visible objects.
"I get it," said Socrates, "and I completely accept what you’re saying. But tell me, Zeno, do you not also believe that there’s an idea of likeness itself, as well as an idea of unlikeness, which opposes likeness? And in these two ideas, you, I, and everything else we refer to as 'many,' participate. Things that participate in likeness become similar to each other to some extent, and to the degree they participate in unlikeness, they become dissimilar. Can all things not share both traits, being both like and unlike because of that participation?—What’s so surprising about that? Now, if someone could prove that a complete likeness could become unlikeness, or that a complete unlikeness could become likeness, then that would truly be astonishing in my view. But there’s nothing remarkable, Zeno, about demonstrating that things that partake in both likeness and unlikeness experience both. Similarly, if someone were to argue that everything is one through partaking of the one, while simultaneously being many by partaking of the many, that wouldn’t be very surprising either. But if they could show me that the absolute one was many, or the absolute many was one, I would genuinely be amazed. And this applies to everything else too: I would be surprised to hear that natures or ideas themselves held these opposing qualities, but not if someone tried to demonstrate that I am both many and one. When someone wants to show that I am many, they would point out that I have a right side and a left side, a front and a back, and an upper and a lower half—since I can’t deny that I partake in multiplicity. On the other hand, when they want to prove that I am one, they will say that we who are gathered here are seven, and that I am one and partake of the one. In both cases, they make their case. Likewise, if someone shows that objects like wood, stones, and similar things, being many, are also one, we acknowledge that they illustrate the coexistence of the one and the many, but they do not prove that the many are one or that the one is many; they are stating not a paradox but a simple truth. If, however, as I just mentioned, someone were to abstract the basic concepts of like, unlike, one, many, rest, motion, and similar ideas, and then show that these can mix and separate within themselves, I would be quite astonished. This part of the argument seems to be handled by you, Zeno, with great energy; but as I was saying, I would be even more amazed if anyone found the same confusion and entanglement in the ideas understood by reason, as you have demonstrated exists in visible objects."
While Socrates was speaking, Pythodorus thought that Parmenides and Zeno were not altogether pleased at the successive steps of the argument; but still they gave the closest attention, and often looked at one another, and smiled as if in admiration of him. When he had finished, Parmenides expressed their feelings in the following words:—
While Socrates was talking, Pythodorus felt that Parmenides and Zeno weren't entirely happy with the direction of the argument; however, they still listened carefully, often glancing at each other and smiling as if they admired him. When he finished, Parmenides shared their thoughts in these words:—
Socrates, he said, I admire the bent of your mind towards philosophy; tell me now, was this your own distinction between ideas in themselves and the things which partake of them? and do you think that there is an idea of likeness apart from the likeness which we possess, and of the one and many, and of the other things which Zeno mentioned?
Socrates, he said, I really admire your mindset when it comes to philosophy; tell me, was this your own distinction between ideas themselves and the things that share in them? Do you believe that there is an idea of likeness separate from the likeness we have, and of the one and the many, as well as the other things that Zeno brought up?
I think that there are such ideas, said Socrates.
I think there are ideas like that, said Socrates.
Parmenides proceeded: And would you also make absolute ideas of the just and the beautiful and the good, and of all that class?
Parmenides continued: So, are you also going to create absolute concepts of what is just, beautiful, and good, and everything in that category?
Yes, he said, I should.
Yes, he said I should.
And would you make an idea of man apart from us and from all other human creatures, or of fire and water?
And would you imagine a concept of man separate from us and all other humans, or of fire and water?
I am often undecided, Parmenides, as to whether I ought to include them or not.
I often find myself unsure, Parmenides, about whether I should include them or not.
And would you feel equally undecided, Socrates, about things of which the mention may provoke a smile?—I mean such things as hair, mud, dirt, or anything else which is vile and paltry; would you suppose that each of these has an idea distinct from the actual objects with which we come into contact, or not?
And would you be just as uncertain, Socrates, about things that might make people smile? I mean things like hair, mud, dirt, or anything else that's lowly and insignificant; do you think each of these has an idea separate from the real objects we encounter, or not?
Certainly not, said Socrates; visible things like these are such as they appear to us, and I am afraid that there would be an absurdity in assuming any idea of them, although I sometimes get disturbed, and begin to think that there is nothing without an idea; but then again, when I have taken up this position, I run away, because I am afraid that I may fall into a bottomless pit of nonsense, and perish; and so I return to the ideas of which I was just now speaking, and occupy myself with them.
Definitely not, Socrates said; things we can see are just as they seem to us, and I'm worried that it would be foolish to assume any concept of them. Sometimes I get rattled and start to think that nothing exists without a concept, but then I back away from that idea because I'm afraid I might end up in a never-ending cycle of nonsense and get lost. So, I go back to the concepts I was just talking about and focus on those.
Yes, Socrates, said Parmenides; that is because you are still young; the time will come, if I am not mistaken, when philosophy will have a firmer grasp of you, and then you will not despise even the meanest things; at your age, you are too much disposed to regard the opinions of men. But I should like to know whether you mean that there are certain ideas of which all other things partake, and from which they derive their names; that similars, for example, become similar, because they partake of similarity; and great things become great, because they partake of greatness; and that just and beautiful things become just and beautiful, because they partake of justice and beauty?
"Yes, Socrates," Parmenides said. "That's because you're still young. There will come a time, if I'm not mistaken, when philosophy will have a stronger hold on you, and then you won't look down on even the simplest things. At your age, you tend to care too much about what people think. But I would like to know if you believe that there are certain ideas that all other things share and from which they get their names; for instance, that similar things become similar because they share in similarity; and that great things become great because they share in greatness; and that just and beautiful things become just and beautiful because they share in justice and beauty?"
Yes, certainly, said Socrates that is my meaning.
Yes, of course, said Socrates, that’s what I mean.
Then each individual partakes either of the whole of the idea or else of a part of the idea? Can there be any other mode of participation?
Then does each person take part in the entire idea or just a portion of it? Is there any other way to participate?
There cannot be, he said.
He said it’s impossible.
Then do you think that the whole idea is one, and yet, being one, is in each one of the many?
Then do you think that the whole concept is unified, and yet, while being unified, exists in each of the many?
Why not, Parmenides? said Socrates.
Why not, Parmenides? said Socrates.
Because one and the same thing will exist as a whole at the same time in many separate individuals, and will therefore be in a state of separation from itself.
Because one single thing can exist entirely at the same time in many different individuals, it will therefore be in a state of separation from itself.
Nay, but the idea may be like the day which is one and the same in many places at once, and yet continuous with itself; in this way each idea may be one and the same in all at the same time.
No, but the idea might be like a day that is the same everywhere at once, yet still continuous with itself; in this way, each idea can be the same for everyone at the same time.
I like your way, Socrates, of making one in many places at once. You mean to say, that if I were to spread out a sail and cover a number of men, there would be one whole including many—is not that your meaning?
I like how you, Socrates, can connect multiple ideas at the same time. What you’re saying is that if I spread out a sail to cover several people, it would create one whole that includes many—am I understanding you correctly?
I think so.
I believe so.
And would you say that the whole sail includes each man, or a part of it only, and different parts different men?
And would you say that the whole sail represents everyone, or just part of it, with different parts belonging to different people?
The latter.
The latter.
Then, Socrates, the ideas themselves will be divisible, and things which participate in them will have a part of them only and not the whole idea existing in each of them?
Then, Socrates, the ideas themselves will be divided, and the things that participate in them will have only a part of the idea, not the whole idea existing in each of them?
That seems to follow.
That seems to make sense.
Then would you like to say, Socrates, that the one idea is really divisible and yet remains one?
Then, would you say, Socrates, that the one idea can be divided but still stays one?
Certainly not, he said.
Definitely not, he said.
Suppose that you divide absolute greatness, and that of the many great things, each one is great in virtue of a portion of greatness less than absolute greatness—is that conceivable?
Suppose you break down absolute greatness, and among the many great things, each one is great because of a slice of greatness that’s less than absolute greatness—can you imagine that?
No.
No.
Or will each equal thing, if possessing some small portion of equality less than absolute equality, be equal to some other thing by virtue of that portion only?
Or will each equal thing, if it has a small degree of equality that's less than complete equality, be considered equal to another thing just because of that partial equality?
Impossible.
No way.
Or suppose one of us to have a portion of smallness; this is but a part of the small, and therefore the absolutely small is greater; if the absolutely small be greater, that to which the part of the small is added will be smaller and not greater than before.
Or let's say one of us has a bit of smallness; that's just a part of the small, so the absolutely small is actually greater. If the absolutely small is greater, then adding that part of the small will make it smaller, not larger than it was.
How absurd!
How ridiculous!
Then in what way, Socrates, will all things participate in the ideas, if they are unable to participate in them either as parts or wholes?
Then how, Socrates, will everything share in the ideas if they can't participate in them as parts or as wholes?
Indeed, he said, you have asked a question which is not easily answered.
Indeed, he said, you've asked a question that's not easy to answer.
Well, said Parmenides, and what do you say of another question?
Well, said Parmenides, what do you think about another question?
What question?
What question are you asking?
I imagine that the way in which you are led to assume one idea of each kind is as follows:—You see a number of great objects, and when you look at them there seems to you to be one and the same idea (or nature) in them all; hence you conceive of greatness as one.
I think the way you come to believe in one idea for each type is like this: You see a lot of big things, and when you look at them, they all seem to share the same idea (or nature); so you come to think of greatness as a single concept.
Very true, said Socrates.
So true, said Socrates.
And if you go on and allow your mind in like manner to embrace in one view the idea of greatness and of great things which are not the idea, and to compare them, will not another greatness arise, which will appear to be the source of all these?
And if you let your mind similarly take in, all at once, the idea of greatness and of great things that aren’t the idea, and compare them, won’t another sense of greatness emerge, which will seem to be the source of all these?
It would seem so.
Looks that way.
Then another idea of greatness now comes into view over and above absolute greatness, and the individuals which partake of it; and then another, over and above all these, by virtue of which they will all be great, and so each idea instead of being one will be infinitely multiplied.
Then another concept of greatness appears, one that goes beyond absolute greatness and those who share in it; and then there's yet another, even higher than all of these, by which they will all be regarded as great, leading to the conclusion that each idea, instead of being singular, will be infinitely multiplied.
But may not the ideas, asked Socrates, be thoughts only, and have no proper existence except in our minds, Parmenides? For in that case each idea may still be one, and not experience this infinite multiplication.
But could it be that the ideas, Socrates asked, are just thoughts and don’t actually exist anywhere outside our minds, Parmenides? If that’s the case, each idea could still be one and not face this endless multiplication.
And can there be individual thoughts which are thoughts of nothing?
And can there be personal thoughts that are just thoughts of nothing?
Impossible, he said.
No way, he said.
The thought must be of something?
The thought must be of something?
Yes.
Yes.
Of something which is or which is not?
Of something that is or isn't?
Of something which is.
Of something that is.
Must it not be of a single something, which the thought recognizes as attaching to all, being a single form or nature?
Must it not be one single thing that the mind sees as connecting everything, being a single form or essence?
Yes.
Yes.
And will not the something which is apprehended as one and the same in all, be an idea?
And won't what is seen as one and the same in everything be an idea?
From that, again, there is no escape.
From that, again, there’s no way out.
Then, said Parmenides, if you say that everything else participates in the ideas, must you not say either that everything is made up of thoughts, and that all things think; or that they are thoughts but have no thought?
Then, Parmenides said, if you claim that everything else is part of the ideas, must you not say that everything is made up of thoughts, and that all things think; or that they are thoughts but don’t have the ability to think?
The latter view, Parmenides, is no more rational than the previous one. In my opinion, the ideas are, as it were, patterns fixed in nature, and other things are like them, and resemblances of them—what is meant by the participation of other things in the ideas, is really assimilation to them.
The latter view, Parmenides, is just as irrational as the former. I believe that the ideas are like patterns established in nature, and other things resemble them; the participation of other things in the ideas actually means aligning with them.
But if, said he, the individual is like the idea, must not the idea also be like the individual, in so far as the individual is a resemblance of the idea? That which is like, cannot be conceived of as other than the like of like.
But if, he said, the individual is like the idea, then shouldn’t the idea also be like the individual, since the individual is a reflection of the idea? Something that is like cannot be thought of as anything other than a likeness of another.
Impossible.
Not happening.
And when two things are alike, must they not partake of the same idea?
And when two things are similar, can't they share the same concept?
They must.
They have to.
And will not that of which the two partake, and which makes them alike, be the idea itself?
And won't that which the two share, and which makes them similar, be the idea itself?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then the idea cannot be like the individual, or the individual like the idea; for if they are alike, some further idea of likeness will always be coming to light, and if that be like anything else, another; and new ideas will be always arising, if the idea resembles that which partakes of it?
Then the idea can't be like the individual, nor can the individual be like the idea; because if they are similar, another idea of similarity will keep emerging, and if that is similar to something else, then another will follow; new ideas will always come up if the idea shares traits with what it belongs to.
Quite true.
Very true.
The theory, then, that other things participate in the ideas by resemblance, has to be given up, and some other mode of participation devised?
The theory, then, that other things share in the ideas by resemblance has to be abandoned, and some other way of participation needs to be created?
It would seem so.
Looks that way.
Do you see then, Socrates, how great is the difficulty of affirming the ideas to be absolute?
Do you see, Socrates, how challenging it is to claim that the ideas are absolute?
Yes, indeed.
Yep, definitely.
And, further, let me say that as yet you only understand a small part of the difficulty which is involved if you make of each thing a single idea, parting it off from other things.
And, let me add that you only grasp a small portion of the challenge that comes with seeing each thing as just one idea, separating it from everything else.
What difficulty? he said.
What difficulty? he asked.
There are many, but the greatest of all is this:—If an opponent argues that these ideas, being such as we say they ought to be, must remain unknown, no one can prove to him that he is wrong, unless he who denies their existence be a man of great ability and knowledge, and is willing to follow a long and laborious demonstration; he will remain unconvinced, and still insist that they cannot be known.
There are many, but the most important of all is this:—If someone argues that these ideas, as we claim they should be, must stay unknown, no one can prove them wrong unless the person denying their existence is very capable and knowledgeable and is willing to go through a long and complicated explanation; they will stay unconvinced and continue to insist that these ideas cannot be known.
What do you mean, Parmenides? said Socrates.
What do you mean, Parmenides? Socrates asked.
In the first place, I think, Socrates, that you, or any one who maintains the existence of absolute essences, will admit that they cannot exist in us.
In the first place, I think, Socrates, that you, or anyone who believes in the existence of absolute essences, will agree that they cannot exist within us.
No, said Socrates; for then they would be no longer absolute.
No, said Socrates; because then they wouldn't be absolute anymore.
True, he said; and therefore when ideas are what they are in relation to one another, their essence is determined by a relation among themselves, and has nothing to do with the resemblances, or whatever they are to be termed, which are in our sphere, and from which we receive this or that name when we partake of them. And the things which are within our sphere and have the same names with them, are likewise only relative to one another, and not to the ideas which have the same names with them, but belong to themselves and not to them.
True, he said; and so when ideas are what they are in relation to each other, their essence is shaped by their relationships among themselves, and has nothing to do with the similarities, or whatever they may be called, that exist in our realm, from which we get this or that name when we engage with them. The things within our realm that share the same names are also only relative to one another, not to the ideas that share those names, but belong to themselves and not to those ideas.
What do you mean? said Socrates.
What do you mean? said Socrates.
I may illustrate my meaning in this way, said Parmenides:—A master has a slave; now there is nothing absolute in the relation between them, which is simply a relation of one man to another. But there is also an idea of mastership in the abstract, which is relative to the idea of slavery in the abstract. These natures have nothing to do with us, nor we with them; they are concerned with themselves only, and we with ourselves. Do you see my meaning?
I can explain what I mean like this, said Parmenides:—A master has a slave; there’s nothing absolute about their relationship; it’s just a relationship between two people. But there’s also an abstract idea of being a master, which relates to the abstract idea of being a slave. These concepts don’t concern us, nor do we concern them; they only care about themselves, and we care about ourselves. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Yes, said Socrates, I quite see your meaning.
Yes, said Socrates, I totally understand what you mean.
And will not knowledge—I mean absolute knowledge—answer to absolute truth?
And won't knowledge—I mean complete knowledge—correspond to absolute truth?
Certainly.
Sure.
And each kind of absolute knowledge will answer to each kind of absolute being?
And each type of absolute knowledge will correspond to each type of absolute being?
Yes.
Yes.
But the knowledge which we have, will answer to the truth which we have; and again, each kind of knowledge which we have, will be a knowledge of each kind of being which we have?
But the knowledge we have will align with the truth we have; and again, each type of knowledge we possess will correspond to each type of being we have?
Certainly.
Absolutely.
But the ideas themselves, as you admit, we have not, and cannot have?
But the ideas themselves, as you acknowledge, we don’t have, and can’t have?
No, we cannot.
No, we can't.
And the absolute natures or kinds are known severally by the absolute idea of knowledge?
And are the fundamental natures or types known individually by the complete concept of knowledge?
Yes.
Yes.
And we have not got the idea of knowledge?
And don't we understand the concept of knowledge?
No.
No.
Then none of the ideas are known to us, because we have no share in absolute knowledge?
Then none of the ideas are known to us because we have no part in complete knowledge?
I suppose not.
I guess not.
Then the nature of the beautiful in itself, and of the good in itself, and all other ideas which we suppose to exist absolutely, are unknown to us?
Then the true nature of beauty itself, and of goodness itself, and all other ideas that we believe exist independently, are unknown to us?
It would seem so.
Looks like it.
I think that there is a stranger consequence still.
I think there’s an even stranger consequence.
What is it?
What is it?
Would you, or would you not say, that absolute knowledge, if there is such a thing, must be a far more exact knowledge than our knowledge; and the same of beauty and of the rest?
Would you say that absolute knowledge, if it exists, has to be much more precise than our own knowledge? The same goes for beauty and everything else?
Yes.
Yes.
And if there be such a thing as participation in absolute knowledge, no one is more likely than God to have this most exact knowledge?
And if there's such a thing as participating in absolute knowledge, no one is more likely than God to possess this complete understanding.
Certainly.
Of course.
But then, will God, having absolute knowledge, have a knowledge of human things?
But then, will God, who knows everything, have knowledge of human affairs?
Why not?
Why not?
Because, Socrates, said Parmenides, we have admitted that the ideas are not valid in relation to human things; nor human things in relation to them; the relations of either are limited to their respective spheres.
Because, Socrates, Parmenides said, we have agreed that the ideas don’t apply to human things, nor do human things relate to them; the connections between either are confined to their own areas.
Yes, that has been admitted.
Yeah, that's been admitted.
And if God has this perfect authority, and perfect knowledge, his authority cannot rule us, nor his knowledge know us, or any human thing; just as our authority does not extend to the gods, nor our knowledge know anything which is divine, so by parity of reason they, being gods, are not our masters, neither do they know the things of men.
And if God has complete authority and perfect knowledge, then His authority cannot govern us, nor can His knowledge understand us or anything human; just as our authority doesn't reach the gods, and our knowledge doesn't grasp anything divine, in the same way, they, as gods, are not our rulers, nor do they understand human affairs.
Yet, surely, said Socrates, to deprive God of knowledge is monstrous.
Yet, surely, Socrates said, it's monstrous to take away God's knowledge.
These, Socrates, said Parmenides, are a few, and only a few of the difficulties in which we are involved if ideas really are and we determine each one of them to be an absolute unity. He who hears what may be said against them will deny the very existence of them—and even if they do exist, he will say that they must of necessity be unknown to man; and he will seem to have reason on his side, and as we were remarking just now, will be very difficult to convince; a man must be gifted with very considerable ability before he can learn that everything has a class and an absolute essence; and still more remarkable will he be who discovers all these things for himself, and having thoroughly investigated them is able to teach them to others.
These are just a few of the challenges we're facing, Socrates, if ideas truly exist and we consider each one to be a complete unity. Anyone who hears the arguments against them will likely deny their very existence—and even if they do exist, they will claim that we can never truly know them; they’ll appear to have valid reasoning on their side, and as we just mentioned, it will be quite hard to change their mind. A person needs to be exceptionally talented to understand that everything belongs to a category and has a true essence; even more impressive will be someone who figures all of this out for themselves, thoroughly examines it, and can then teach it to others.
I agree with you, Parmenides, said Socrates; and what you say is very much to my mind.
"I agree with you, Parmenides," Socrates said, "and what you say resonates with me a lot."
And yet, Socrates, said Parmenides, if a man, fixing his attention on these and the like difficulties, does away with ideas of things and will not admit that every individual thing has its own determinate idea which is always one and the same, he will have nothing on which his mind can rest; and so he will utterly destroy the power of reasoning, as you seem to me to have particularly noted.
And yet, Socrates, Parmenides said, if a person focuses on these and similar challenges and dismisses the concept of ideas altogether, refusing to accept that every individual thing has its own fixed idea that is always the same, he will have nothing to anchor his thoughts; and in doing so, he will completely undermine the ability to reason, as it seems you have pointed out.
Very true, he said.
So true, he said.
But, then, what is to become of philosophy? Whither shall we turn, if the ideas are unknown?
But then, what will happen to philosophy? Where will we turn if the ideas are unknown?
I certainly do not see my way at present.
I definitely can't see my way forward right now.
Yes, said Parmenides; and I think that this arises, Socrates, out of your attempting to define the beautiful, the just, the good, and the ideas generally, without sufficient previous training. I noticed your deficiency, when I heard you talking here with your friend Aristoteles, the day before yesterday. The impulse that carries you towards philosophy is assuredly noble and divine; but there is an art which is called by the vulgar idle talking, and which is often imagined to be useless; in that you must train and exercise yourself, now that you are young, or truth will elude your grasp.
Yes, said Parmenides; and I think this comes from you trying to define beauty, justice, goodness, and the ideas in general without enough training beforehand. I noticed your shortcoming when I heard you talking with your friend Aristoteles the day before yesterday. The passion that drives you towards philosophy is certainly admirable and inspired; but there’s a skill that people often call idle chatter, which is often thought to be pointless; you need to train and practice now that you’re young, or the truth will slip away from you.
And what is the nature of this exercise, Parmenides, which you would recommend?
And what is this exercise, Parmenides, that you would suggest?
That which you heard Zeno practising; at the same time, I give you credit for saying to him that you did not care to examine the perplexity in reference to visible things, or to consider the question that way; but only in reference to objects of thought, and to what may be called ideas.
What you heard Zeno practicing; at the same time, I appreciate you telling him that you weren’t interested in exploring the confusion related to visible things, or looking at the question that way; but only in relation to thoughts and what can be called ideas.
Why, yes, he said, there appears to me to be no difficulty in showing by this method that visible things are like and unlike and may experience anything.
Sure, he said, it seems clear to me that this method can show that visible things can be both similar and different and can undergo anything.
Quite true, said Parmenides; but I think that you should go a step further, and consider not only the consequences which flow from a given hypothesis, but also the consequences which flow from denying the hypothesis; and that will be still better training for you.
Absolutely, said Parmenides; but I believe you should take it a step further and not only think about the consequences that come from a specific hypothesis but also consider the consequences of rejecting that hypothesis; that would be even better practice for you.
What do you mean? he said.
What do you mean? he asked.
I mean, for example, that in the case of this very hypothesis of Zeno's about the many, you should inquire not only what will be the consequences to the many in relation to themselves and to the one, and to the one in relation to itself and the many, on the hypothesis of the being of the many, but also what will be the consequences to the one and the many in their relation to themselves and to each other, on the opposite hypothesis. Or, again, if likeness is or is not, what will be the consequences in either of these cases to the subjects of the hypothesis, and to other things, in relation both to themselves and to one another, and so of unlikeness; and the same holds good of motion and rest, of generation and destruction, and even of being and not-being. In a word, when you suppose anything to be or not to be, or to be in any way affected, you must look at the consequences in relation to the thing itself, and to any other things which you choose,—to each of them singly, to more than one, and to all; and so of other things, you must look at them in relation to themselves and to anything else which you suppose either to be or not to be, if you would train yourself perfectly and see the real truth.
I mean, for example, that when considering Zeno's hypothesis about the many, you should examine not only what outcomes arise for the many in relation to themselves and to the one, and for the one in relation to itself and the many, based on the assumption that many exist, but also what the effects will be for both the one and the many in their relationship to themselves and to each other under the opposite assumption. Or, if likeness exists or doesn't exist, what will the implications be in either scenario for the subjects of the hypothesis and for other things, in relation to themselves and to each other, as well as for unlikeness; this also applies to motion and rest, creation and destruction, and even to existence and non-existence. In short, when you assume something to be or not to be, or to be in some way affected, you have to consider the consequences in relation to the thing itself, and to any other things you choose—individually, in pairs, and in total; similarly, you need to examine other things in relation to themselves and to anything else you assume exists or doesn't exist, if you want to fully train yourself and uncover the real truth.
That, Parmenides, is a tremendous business of which you speak, and I do not quite understand you; will you take some hypothesis and go through the steps?—then I shall apprehend you better.
That, Parmenides, is quite a significant topic you're discussing, and I'm not fully grasping it; could you take an example and walk me through the process?—then I'll understand you better.
That, Socrates, is a serious task to impose on a man of my years.
That, Socrates, is a big task to put on someone my age.
Then will you, Zeno? said Socrates.
Then will you, Zeno? said Socrates.
Zeno answered with a smile:—Let us make our petition to Parmenides himself, who is quite right in saying that you are hardly aware of the extent of the task which you are imposing on him; and if there were more of us I should not ask him, for these are not subjects which any one, especially at his age, can well speak of before a large audience; most people are not aware that this roundabout progress through all things is the only way in which the mind can attain truth and wisdom. And therefore, Parmenides, I join in the request of Socrates, that I may hear the process again which I have not heard for a long time.
Zeno smiled and said, "Let’s ask Parmenides himself, who is definitely right about you not really realizing how big the task is that you’re putting on him. If there were more of us, I wouldn’t bother him, because these topics aren’t something anyone, especially at his age, can comfortably discuss in front of a large crowd. Most people don’t understand that this winding journey through everything is the only way for the mind to reach truth and wisdom. So, Parmenides, I support Socrates' request to hear the process again, which I haven't listened to in a long time."
When Zeno had thus spoken, Pythodorus, according to Antiphon's report of him, said, that he himself and Aristoteles and the whole company entreated Parmenides to give an example of the process. I cannot refuse, said Parmenides; and yet I feel rather like Ibycus, who, when in his old age, against his will, he fell in love, compared himself to an old racehorse, who was about to run in a chariot race, shaking with fear at the course he knew so well—this was his simile of himself. And I also experience a trembling when I remember through what an ocean of words I have to wade at my time of life. But I must indulge you, as Zeno says that I ought, and we are alone. Where shall I begin? And what shall be our first hypothesis, if I am to attempt this laborious pastime? Shall I begin with myself, and take my own hypothesis the one? and consider the consequences which follow on the supposition either of the being or of the not-being of one?
When Zeno finished speaking, Pythodorus, according to Antiphon’s account, said that he, Aristoteles, and the whole group asked Parmenides to provide an example of the process. “I can’t refuse,” Parmenides replied; but I feel a bit like Ibycus, who, in his old age, fell in love against his will and compared himself to an old racehorse getting ready for a chariot race, trembling with fear at the familiar track—this was his way of describing himself. I also feel a tremor when I think about the sea of words I have to navigate at my age. However, I must indulge you, as Zeno suggests I should, and since it's just the two of us. Where should I start? And what should be our first hypothesis if I’m going to tackle this challenging task? Should I begin with myself and take my own hypothesis as one? Should I consider the implications of assuming either the existence or non-existence of one?
By all means, said Zeno.
Of course, said Zeno.
And who will answer me? he said. Shall I propose the youngest? He will not make difficulties and will be the most likely to say what he thinks; and his answers will give me time to breathe.
And who will answer me? he said. Should I suggest the youngest? He won’t cause any trouble and is most likely to speak his mind; plus, his answers will give me a moment to catch my breath.
I am the one whom you mean, Parmenides, said Aristoteles; for I am the youngest and at your service. Ask, and I will answer.
I’m the one you’re talking about, Parmenides, said Aristotle; I’m the youngest and here to help. Just ask, and I’ll respond.
Parmenides proceeded: 1.a. If one is, he said, the one cannot be many?
Parmenides continued: 1.a. If something exists, he said, it cannot be many things?
Impossible.
No way.
Then the one cannot have parts, and cannot be a whole?
Then can one not have parts and not be a whole?
Why not?
Why not?
Because every part is part of a whole; is it not?
Because every part is part of a whole; isn't it?
Yes.
Yes.
And what is a whole? would not that of which no part is wanting be a whole?
And what is a whole? Wouldn't something that has no missing parts be considered a whole?
Certainly.
Of course.
Then, in either case, the one would be made up of parts; both as being a whole, and also as having parts?
Then, in either case, would it be made up of parts; both as being a whole and also having parts?
To be sure.
For sure.
And in either case, the one would be many, and not one?
And in either situation, wouldn't the one be many, not just one?
True.
True.
But, surely, it ought to be one and not many?
But, surely, it should be one and not many?
It ought.
It should.
Then, if the one is to remain one, it will not be a whole, and will not have parts?
Then, if one is to stay as one, it won't be a whole and won't have parts?
No.
No.
But if it has no parts, it will have neither beginning, middle, nor end; for these would of course be parts of it.
But if it has no parts, it won't have a beginning, middle, or end; because those would clearly be parts of it.
Right.
Okay.
But then, again, a beginning and an end are the limits of everything?
But then again, are a beginning and an end the boundaries of everything?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then the one, having neither beginning nor end, is unlimited?
Then the one, having no beginning or end, is limitless?
Yes, unlimited.
Yep, unlimited.
And therefore formless; for it cannot partake either of round or straight.
And so it's formless; it can't be either round or straight.
But why?
But why not?
Why, because the round is that of which all the extreme points are equidistant from the centre?
Why? Because the circle is the shape where all the outer points are the same distance from the center.
Yes.
Yes.
And the straight is that of which the centre intercepts the view of the extremes?
And the straight line is the one where the center blocks the view of the ends?
True.
True.
Then the one would have parts and would be many, if it partook either of a straight or of a circular form?
Then would it have parts and be many, depending on whether it took a straight or circular shape?
Assuredly.
For sure.
But having no parts, it will be neither straight nor round?
But without any parts, it will be neither straight nor round?
Right.
Okay.
And, being of such a nature, it cannot be in any place, for it cannot be either in another or in itself.
And, because of its nature, it can't exist in any location, since it can't be in something else or within itself.
How so?
How's that?
Because if it were in another, it would be encircled by that in which it was, and would touch it at many places and with many parts; but that which is one and indivisible, and does not partake of a circular nature, cannot be touched all round in many places.
Because if it were in something else, it would be surrounded by that which contains it and would come into contact at many points and with many parts; but that which is one and indivisible, and doesn’t have a circular nature, cannot be touched all around in many places.
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
But if, on the other hand, one were in itself, it would also be contained by nothing else but itself; that is to say, if it were really in itself; for nothing can be in anything which does not contain it.
But if, on the other hand, something exists independently, it would only be defined by itself; in other words, if it truly exists on its own; because nothing can exist in something that doesn’t encompass it.
Impossible.
No way.
But then, that which contains must be other than that which is contained? for the same whole cannot do and suffer both at once; and if so, one will be no longer one, but two?
But then, what contains must be different from what is contained? Because the same whole can't both do and experience at the same time; and if that's the case, it will no longer be one, but two?
True.
True.
Then one cannot be anywhere, either in itself or in another?
Then one can't be anywhere, either within oneself or in someone else?
No.
No.
Further consider, whether that which is of such a nature can have either rest or motion.
Further consider whether something like this can be at rest or in motion.
Why not?
Why not?
Why, because the one, if it were moved, would be either moved in place or changed in nature; for these are the only kinds of motion.
Why? Because if something is moved, it would either be moved in place or its nature would change; those are the only types of motion.
Yes.
Yeah.
And the one, when it changes and ceases to be itself, cannot be any longer one.
And when something changes and stops being itself, it can't be one anymore.
It cannot.
It can't.
It cannot therefore experience the sort of motion which is change of nature?
It cannot, therefore, experience the kind of motion that is a change in nature?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then can the motion of the one be in place?
Then can the movement of one be in place?
Perhaps.
Maybe.
But if the one moved in place, must it not either move round and round in the same place, or from one place to another?
But if something moved in place, wouldn't it have to either rotate in the same spot or move from one place to another?
It must.
It has to.
And that which moves in a circle must rest upon a centre; and that which goes round upon a centre must have parts which are different from the centre; but that which has no centre and no parts cannot possibly be carried round upon a centre?
And anything that moves in a circle has to be supported by a center; and anything that revolves around a center must have parts that are different from the center; but something that has no center and no parts can't be rotated around a center at all?
Impossible.
No way.
But perhaps the motion of the one consists in change of place?
But maybe the movement of the one is about changing location?
Perhaps so, if it moves at all.
Perhaps that's true, if it moves at all.
And have we not already shown that it cannot be in anything?
And haven't we already demonstrated that it can't be in anything?
Yes.
Yes.
Then its coming into being in anything is still more impossible; is it not?
Then its existence in anything is even more impossible, isn't it?
I do not see why.
I don't see why.
Why, because anything which comes into being in anything, can neither as yet be in that other thing while still coming into being, nor be altogether out of it, if already coming into being in it.
Why? Because anything that starts to exist in something cannot be in that other thing while it is still coming into existence, nor can it be completely absent from it if it is already beginning to exist in it.
Certainly not.
Absolutely not.
And therefore whatever comes into being in another must have parts, and then one part may be in, and another part out of that other; but that which has no parts can never be at one and the same time neither wholly within nor wholly without anything.
And so, anything that exists in another must have parts, meaning one part can be in that other, and another part can be out of it; but that which has no parts can never be completely inside or completely outside of anything at the same time.
True.
True.
And is there not a still greater impossibility in that which has no parts, and is not a whole, coming into being anywhere, since it cannot come into being either as a part or as a whole?
And isn’t there an even bigger impossibility in something that has no parts and isn’t a whole coming into existence anywhere, since it can’t exist either as a part or as a whole?
Clearly.
Clearly.
Then it does not change place by revolving in the same spot, nor by going somewhere and coming into being in something; nor again, by change in itself?
Then it doesn’t change its location by spinning in the same spot, nor by moving somewhere and becoming something; nor does it change within itself?
Very true.
So true.
Then in respect of any kind of motion the one is immoveable?
Then, when it comes to any kind of motion, is the one immovable?
Immoveable.
Unmovable.
But neither can the one be in anything, as we affirm?
But the one can't be in anything, right?
Yes, we said so.
Yep, we said that.
Then it is never in the same?
Then it's never the same?
Why not?
Why not?
Because if it were in the same it would be in something.
Because if it were the same, it would be in something.
Certainly.
Sure.
And we said that it could not be in itself, and could not be in other?
And we said that it couldn't be in itself, and it couldn't be in something else?
True.
True.
Then one is never in the same place?
Then you're never in the same place?
It would seem not.
Doesn't seem like it.
But that which is never in the same place is never quiet or at rest?
But that which is never in the same place is never still or at peace?
Never.
Never.
One then, as would seem, is neither at rest nor in motion?
One is neither at rest nor moving, it seems?
It certainly appears so.
It definitely seems that way.
Neither will it be the same with itself or other; nor again, other than itself or other.
Neither will it be the same with itself or anything else; nor will it be different from itself or anything else.
How is that?
How's that?
If other than itself it would be other than one, and would not be one.
If it were something other than itself, it wouldn’t be one, and it wouldn’t be one.
True.
True.
And if the same with other, it would be that other, and not itself; so that upon this supposition too, it would not have the nature of one, but would be other than one?
And if the same applies to something else, it would be that other thing, and not itself; so under this assumption too, it wouldn’t have the nature of one, but would be different from one?
It would.
It will.
Then it will not be the same with other, or other than itself?
Then it won't be the same as anything else, or anything other than itself?
It will not.
It won't.
Neither will it be other than other, while it remains one; for not one, but only other, can be other than other, and nothing else.
Neither will it be anything other than itself, as long as it remains one; for not one, but only something different, can be different from itself and nothing else.
True.
True.
Then not by virtue of being one will it be other?
Then just because it is one, will it be something different?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
But if not by virtue of being one, not by virtue of itself; and if not by virtue of itself, not itself, and itself not being other at all, will not be other than anything?
But if not because it is one, not by its own nature; and if not by its own nature, not itself, and itself not being anything else at all, will it not be different from anything?
Right.
Okay.
Neither will one be the same with itself.
Neither will one be the same as itself.
How not?
How could that be?
Surely the nature of the one is not the nature of the same.
Surely the nature of one is not the same as the nature of another.
Why not?
Why not?
It is not when anything becomes the same with anything that it becomes one.
It’s not when something is identical to something else that it becomes one.
What of that?
What's that about?
Anything which becomes the same with the many, necessarily becomes many and not one.
Anything that becomes identical with the many inevitably becomes many and not one.
True.
True.
But, if there were no difference between the one and the same, when a thing became the same, it would always become one; and when it became one, the same?
But if there was no difference between one and the same, when something became the same, it would always become one; and when it became one, what about the same?
Certainly.
Of course.
And, therefore, if one be the same with itself, it is not one with itself, and will therefore be one and also not one.
And so, if something is the same as itself, it is not one with itself, and will therefore be one and also not one.
Surely that is impossible.
That’s definitely impossible.
And therefore the one can neither be other than other, nor the same with itself.
And so, one cannot be anything other than itself, nor can it be the same as itself.
Impossible.
Not possible.
And thus the one can neither be the same, nor other, either in relation to itself or other?
And so, can one really be the same or different, both in relation to itself or to others?
No.
No.
Neither will the one be like anything or unlike itself or other.
Neither will one be like anything or unlike itself or anything else.
Why not?
Why not?
Because likeness is sameness of affections.
Because similarity means having the same feelings.
Yes.
Yes.
And sameness has been shown to be of a nature distinct from oneness?
And has it been shown that sameness is different from oneness?
That has been shown.
That has been demonstrated.
But if the one had any other affection than that of being one, it would be affected in such a way as to be more than one; which is impossible.
But if someone had any other feeling besides wanting to be unified, it would be influenced in a way that makes it more than one, which is impossible.
True.
True.
Then the one can never be so affected as to be the same either with another or with itself?
Then can one truly be affected enough to be the same as either another person or even themselves?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then it cannot be like another, or like itself?
Then it can't be like anything else, or even like itself?
No.
No.
Nor can it be affected so as to be other, for then it would be affected in such a way as to be more than one.
Nor can it be changed to be anything else, because then it would be changed in a way that makes it more than one.
It would.
It would.
That which is affected otherwise than itself or another, will be unlike itself or another, for sameness of affections is likeness.
That which is influenced differently than itself or something else will be different from itself or something else, because having the same influences means being alike.
True.
True.
But the one, as appears, never being affected otherwise, is never unlike itself or other?
But the one, as it seems, is never affected in any other way, so it is never different from itself or anything else?
Never.
Never.
Then the one will never be either like or unlike itself or other?
Then one will never be either like or unlike itself or anything else?
Plainly not.
Absolutely not.
Again, being of this nature, it can neither be equal nor unequal either to itself or to other.
Again, being of this nature, it can neither be equal nor unequal to itself or to anything else.
How is that?
How's that?
Why, because the one if equal must be of the same measures as that to which it is equal.
Why? Because something that is equal must have the same measurements as the thing it is equal to.
True.
True.
And if greater or less than things which are commensurable with it, the one will have more measures than that which is less, and fewer than that which is greater?
And if things that can be measured with it are either greater or smaller, the one will have more measurements than what is smaller and fewer than what is larger?
Yes.
Yes.
And so of things which are not commensurate with it, the one will have greater measures than that which is less and smaller than that which is greater.
And so for things that don’t match up, the one will have bigger measurements than the one that is smaller and less than the bigger one.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
But how can that which does not partake of sameness, have either the same measures or have anything else the same?
But how can something that doesn't share the same qualities have the same measurements or anything else in common?
Impossible.
Not happening.
And not having the same measures, the one cannot be equal either with itself or with another?
And if the measurements aren't the same, can one be equal to itself or to another?
It appears so.
Looks like it.
But again, whether it have fewer or more measures, it will have as many parts as it has measures; and thus again the one will be no longer one but will have as many parts as measures.
But again, whether it has fewer or more measures, it will have as many parts as it has measures; and therefore, it will no longer be one but will have as many parts as measures.
Right.
Okay.
And if it were of one measure, it would be equal to that measure; yet it has been shown to be incapable of equality.
And if it were a single measure, it would be equal to that measure; yet it has been proven to be incapable of equality.
It has.
It does.
Then it will neither partake of one measure, nor of many, nor of few, nor of the same at all, nor be equal to itself or another; nor be greater or less than itself, or other?
Then it won't share in one measure, or many, or a few, nor the same at all, nor be equal to itself or anything else; nor will it be greater or less than itself or anything else?
Certainly.
Sure.
Well, and do we suppose that one can be older, or younger than anything, or of the same age with it?
Well, do we think that someone can be older, or younger than anything, or the same age as it?
Why not?
Why not?
Why, because that which is of the same age with itself or other, must partake of equality or likeness of time; and we said that the one did not partake either of equality or of likeness?
Why? Because that which is the same age as itself or anything else must share equality or similarity in time; and we said that the one did not share either equality or similarity.
We did say so.
We did say that.
And we also said, that it did not partake of inequality or unlikeness.
And we also mentioned that it did not involve inequality or difference.
Very true.
So true.
How then can one, being of this nature, be either older or younger than anything, or have the same age with it?
How can someone with this nature be older or younger than anything, or be the same age as it?
In no way.
Not at all.
Then one cannot be older or younger, or of the same age, either with itself or with another?
Then one cannot be older or younger, or the same age, either with itself or with another?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then the one, being of this nature, cannot be in time at all; for must not that which is in time, be always growing older than itself?
Then this being, by its very nature, cannot exist in time at all; because isn’t it true that whatever exists in time must always be getting older than itself?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And that which is older, must always be older than something which is younger?
And what is older must always be older than something that is younger?
True.
True.
Then, that which becomes older than itself, also becomes at the same time younger than itself, if it is to have something to become older than.
Then, what becomes older than itself also becomes younger than itself at the same time if it is to have something to outlive.
What do you mean?
What do you mean?
I mean this:—A thing does not need to become different from another thing which is already different; it IS different, and if its different has become, it has become different; if its different will be, it will be different; but of that which is becoming different, there cannot have been, or be about to be, or yet be, a different—the only different possible is one which is becoming.
I mean this: A thing doesn’t need to change into something else that is already different; it IS different. If it has changed, it has become different; if it will change, it will be different. But for something that is becoming different, there hasn’t been, isn’t going to be, or isn’t yet a different one—the only kind of difference possible is one that is in the process of becoming.
That is inevitable.
That's unavoidable.
But, surely, the elder is a difference relative to the younger, and to nothing else.
But, of course, the elder is a difference in relation to the younger, and nothing else.
True.
True.
Then that which becomes older than itself must also, at the same time, become younger than itself?
Then what becomes older than itself must also, at the same time, become younger than itself?
Yes.
Yep.
But again, it is true that it cannot become for a longer or for a shorter time than itself, but it must become, and be, and have become, and be about to be, for the same time with itself?
But again, it's true that it can't exist for longer or shorter than itself; it must become, be, have become, and be about to be, for the same amount of time as itself?
That again is inevitable.
That's unavoidable again.
Then things which are in time, and partake of time, must in every case, I suppose, be of the same age with themselves; and must also become at once older and younger than themselves?
Then, things that exist in time and are influenced by time must, I assume, be the same age as themselves in every instance; and they must also simultaneously become older and younger than themselves?
Yes.
Yes.
But the one did not partake of those affections?
But the one did not share those feelings?
Not at all.
Not at all.
Then it does not partake of time, and is not in any time?
Then it doesn't involve time and isn't bound by any time?
So the argument shows.
So the argument demonstrates.
Well, but do not the expressions 'was,' and 'has become,' and 'was becoming,' signify a participation of past time?
Well, don't the phrases 'was,' 'has become,' and 'was becoming' indicate a connection to the past?
Certainly.
Sure.
And do not 'will be,' 'will become,' 'will have become,' signify a participation of future time?
And don't "will be," "will become," or "will have become," indicate a connection to future time?
Yes.
Yes.
And 'is,' or 'becomes,' signifies a participation of present time?
And ‘is’ or ‘becomes’ means to take part in the present moment?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And if the one is absolutely without participation in time, it never had become, or was becoming, or was at any time, or is now become or is becoming, or is, or will become, or will have become, or will be, hereafter.
And if one is completely outside of time, it never became, was becoming, was at any time, is now becoming, is, will become, will have become, or will be in the future.
Most true.
So true.
But are there any modes of partaking of being other than these?
But are there any ways to experience existence besides these?
There are none.
There aren't any.
Then the one cannot possibly partake of being?
Then how can one truly participate in being?
That is the inference.
That's the conclusion.
Then the one is not at all?
Then the one is not there at all?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then the one does not exist in such way as to be one; for if it were and partook of being, it would already be; but if the argument is to be trusted, the one neither is nor is one?
Then the one doesn't exist in a way that makes it one; because if it did and had existence, it would already be so; but if we can trust the argument, the one is neither existing nor truly one?
True.
True.
But that which is not admits of no attribute or relation?
But that which does not exist has no attributes or relationships?
Of course not.
Of course not.
Then there is no name, nor expression, nor perception, nor opinion, nor knowledge of it?
Then there is no name, no expression, no perception, no opinion, and no knowledge of it?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then it is neither named, nor expressed, nor opined, nor known, nor does anything that is perceive it.
Then it is neither named, nor expressed, nor thought of, nor understood, nor does anything perceive it.
So we must infer.
So we have to infer.
But can all this be true about the one?
But can all of this really be true about the one?
I think not.
I don't think so.
1.b. Suppose, now, that we return once more to the original hypothesis; let us see whether, on a further review, any new aspect of the question appears.
1.b. Now, let’s go back to the original hypothesis and see if any new angle on the question comes up upon further review.
I shall be very happy to do so.
I’d be very happy to do that.
We say that we have to work out together all the consequences, whatever they may be, which follow, if the one is?
We say that we need to figure out together all the consequences, no matter what they are, that follow if one is?
Yes.
Yes.
Then we will begin at the beginning:—If one is, can one be, and not partake of being?
Then we'll start from the start:—If someone exists, can they exist and not share in existence?
Impossible.
No way.
Then the one will have being, but its being will not be the same with the one; for if the same, it would not be the being of the one; nor would the one have participated in being, for the proposition that one is would have been identical with the proposition that one is one; but our hypothesis is not if one is one, what will follow, but if one is:—am I not right?
Then the one will exist, but its existence won’t be the same as the one; because if it were the same, it wouldn’t be the existence of the one; nor would the one have taken part in existence, since the statement that one is would be the same as the statement that one is one; but our question isn’t about if one is one, what will happen, but if one is:—am I not correct?
Quite right.
That's correct.
We mean to say, that being has not the same significance as one?
We mean to say that existence doesn't hold the same meaning as individuality?
Of course.
Sure.
And when we put them together shortly, and say 'One is,' that is equivalent to saying, 'partakes of being'?
And when we quickly bring them together and say 'One is,' that's the same as saying, 'it has being'?
Quite true.
Very true.
Once more then let us ask, if one is what will follow. Does not this hypothesis necessarily imply that one is of such a nature as to have parts?
Once again, let’s ask if one is what will come next. Doesn’t this idea necessarily suggest that one has a nature that includes parts?
How so?
How's that?
In this way:—If being is predicated of the one, if the one is, and one of being, if being is one; and if being and one are not the same; and since the one, which we have assumed, is, must not the whole, if it is one, itself be, and have for its parts, one and being?
In this way:—If being is said about the one, if the one exists, and one is part of being, if being is one; and if being and one are not the same; and since the one, which we have assumed, exists, must not the whole, if it is one, also exist and have as its parts, one and being?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And is each of these parts—one and being—to be simply called a part, or must the word 'part' be relative to the word 'whole'?
And should each of these parts—one and being—just be called a part, or does the term 'part' need to relate to the word 'whole'?
The latter.
The latter.
Then that which is one is both a whole and has a part?
Then, is the one both a whole and a part?
Certainly.
Sure.
Again, of the parts of the one, if it is—I mean being and one—does either fail to imply the other? is the one wanting to being, or being to the one?
Again, if we consider the concepts of one and being—does one imply the other? Is the one lacking in being, or is being lacking in the one?
Impossible.
No way.
Thus, each of the parts also has in turn both one and being, and is at the least made up of two parts; and the same principle goes on for ever, and every part whatever has always these two parts; for being always involves one, and one being; so that one is always disappearing, and becoming two.
Thus, each of the parts also has both one and being, and is at least made up of two parts; this principle continues endlessly, and every part has always had these two parts; because being always involves one, and one involves being; so that one is always fading away and becoming two.
Certainly.
Sure.
And so the one, if it is, must be infinite in multiplicity?
And so, if there is one, it must be infinitely diverse?
Clearly.
Clearly.
Let us take another direction.
Let's take another direction.
What direction?
Which way?
We say that the one partakes of being and therefore it is?
We say that something exists because it is?
Yes.
Yes.
And in this way, the one, if it has being, has turned out to be many?
And in this way, if it exists, has the one become many?
True.
True.
But now, let us abstract the one which, as we say, partakes of being, and try to imagine it apart from that of which, as we say, it partakes—will this abstract one be one only or many?
But now, let's take the concept that, as we say, has existence, and try to picture it separate from what it, as we say, has existence in—will this abstract concept be singular or multiple?
One, I think.
One, I guess.
Let us see:—Must not the being of one be other than one? for the one is not being, but, considered as one, only partook of being?
Let’s see:—Can a single being really be just one? Because the one isn’t being; it’s only considered one when it participates in being.
Certainly.
Of course.
If being and the one be two different things, it is not because the one is one that it is other than being; nor because being is being that it is other than the one; but they differ from one another in virtue of otherness and difference.
If being and the one are two different things, it's not because the one is one that it is distinct from being; nor is it because being is being that it is distinct from the one; rather, they differ from each other because of otherness and difference.
Certainly.
Sure.
So that the other is not the same—either with the one or with being?
So that the other isn't the same—either with the one or with existence?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
And therefore whether we take being and the other, or being and the one, or the one and the other, in every such case we take two things, which may be rightly called both.
And so whether we consider being and the other, or being and the one, or the one and the other, in each of these cases we are looking at two things, which can both be correctly referred to as such.
How so.
How's that?
In this way—you may speak of being?
In this way—you might talk about being?
Yes.
Yes.
And also of one?
And also of one?
Yes.
Yes.
Then now we have spoken of either of them?
Then have we now talked about either of them?
Yes.
Yes.
Well, and when I speak of being and one, I speak of them both?
Well, when I talk about being and one, am I referring to both of them?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And if I speak of being and the other, or of the one and the other,—in any such case do I not speak of both?
And if I talk about being and the other, or about one and the other—in any of these cases, am I not referring to both?
Yes.
Yes.
And must not that which is correctly called both, be also two?
And shouldn't that which is correctly called both be two as well?
Undoubtedly.
Definitely.
And of two things how can either by any possibility not be one?
And how can either of two things possibly not be one?
It cannot.
It can't.
Then, if the individuals of the pair are together two, they must be severally one?
Then, if the two individuals in the pair are together, do they each still count as one?
Clearly.
Clearly.
And if each of them is one, then by the addition of any one to any pair, the whole becomes three?
And if each of them is one, then by adding any one to any pair, the total becomes three?
Yes.
Yes.
And three are odd, and two are even?
And three are odd, while two are even?
Of course.
Sure thing.
And if there are two there must also be twice, and if there are three there must be thrice; that is, if twice one makes two, and thrice one three?
And if there are two, there must also be two times that, and if there are three, there must be three times that; meaning, if two times one equals two, then three times one equals three?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
There are two, and twice, and therefore there must be twice two; and there are three, and there is thrice, and therefore there must be thrice three?
There are two, and twice, which means there must be two times two; and there are three, and three times, which means there must be three times three?
Of course.
Of course.
If there are three and twice, there is twice three; and if there are two and thrice, there is thrice two?
If there are three and two times, there's two times three; and if there are two and three times, there's three times two?
Undoubtedly.
Definitely.
Here, then, we have even taken even times, and odd taken odd times, and even taken odd times, and odd taken even times.
Here, we have even taken even times, and odd taken odd times, and even taken odd times, and odd taken even times.
True.
True.
And if this is so, does any number remain which has no necessity to be?
And if that's the case, is there any number that doesn't have to exist?
None whatever.
None at all.
Then if one is, number must also be?
Then if one exists, must number also exist?
It must.
It has to.
But if there is number, there must also be many, and infinite multiplicity of being; for number is infinite in multiplicity, and partakes also of being: am I not right?
But if there are numbers, there must also be many, and an infinite variety of existence; because numbers are infinite in variety and also share in existence: am I wrong?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And if all number participates in being, every part of number will also participate?
And if every number is part of existence, does that mean every part of a number is also part of it?
Yes.
Yes.
Then being is distributed over the whole multitude of things, and nothing that is, however small or however great, is devoid of it? And, indeed, the very supposition of this is absurd, for how can that which is, be devoid of being?
Then being is spread across everything, and nothing that exists, no matter how small or how large, is without it. In fact, the idea itself is ridiculous, because how can something that exists lack being?
In no way.
No way.
And it is divided into the greatest and into the smallest, and into being of all sizes, and is broken up more than all things; the divisions of it have no limit.
And it is divided into the largest and the smallest, and exists in all sizes, and is more fragmented than anything else; its divisions are endless.
True.
True.
Then it has the greatest number of parts?
Then it has the most parts?
Yes, the greatest number.
Yes, the highest number.
Is there any of these which is a part of being, and yet no part?
Is there any of these that is part of existence, and yet not part at all?
Impossible.
No way.
But if it is at all and so long as it is, it must be one, and cannot be none?
But if it exists at all, and as long as it does, it must be one and cannot be none?
Certainly.
Sure.
Then the one attaches to every single part of being, and does not fail in any part, whether great or small, or whatever may be the size of it?
Then the one connects to every single part of existence and doesn’t miss any part, whether big or small, or no matter the size.
True.
True.
But reflect:—Can one, in its entirety, be in many places at the same time?
But think about this:—Can one truly be in many places at the same time?
No; I see the impossibility of that.
No, I see how impossible that is.
And if not in its entirety, then it is divided; for it cannot be present with all the parts of being, unless divided.
And if not as a whole, then it's separated; because it can't exist with all its parts unless it's divided.
True.
True.
And that which has parts will be as many as the parts are?
And something that has parts will have as many parts as there are?
Certainly.
Sure.
Then we were wrong in saying just now, that being was distributed into the greatest number of parts. For it is not distributed into parts more than the one, into parts equal to the one; the one is never wanting to being, or being to the one, but being two they are co-equal and co-extensive.
Then we were mistaken in saying earlier that being is divided into the greatest number of parts. It's not divided into more than one part, but into parts equal to one; the one is always present in being, just as being is always present in the one. However, when being is two, they are equal and extend to the same limits.
Certainly that is true.
That’s definitely true.
The one itself, then, having been broken up into parts by being, is many and infinite?
The thing itself, having been divided into parts by existence, is many and limitless?
True.
True.
Then not only the one which has being is many, but the one itself distributed by being, must also be many?
Then not only is the one that exists many, but the one itself, divided by existence, must also be many?
Certainly.
Sure.
Further, inasmuch as the parts are parts of a whole, the one, as a whole, will be limited; for are not the parts contained by the whole?
Furthermore, since the parts are parts of a whole, the whole will be limited; aren't the parts contained by the whole?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And that which contains, is a limit?
And what contains something, is that a limit?
Of course.
Of course.
Then the one if it has being is one and many, whole and parts, having limits and yet unlimited in number?
Then, if it exists, is it one and many, whole and part, having boundaries but still limitless in number?
Clearly.
Clearly.
And because having limits, also having extremes?
And because having limits also means having extremes?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And if a whole, having beginning and middle and end. For can anything be a whole without these three? And if any one of them is wanting to anything, will that any longer be a whole?
And if something has a beginning, middle, and end, can it really be considered a whole? Is it possible for anything to be whole without these three parts? And if any one of them is missing, can it still be called a whole?
No.
No.
Then the one, as appears, will have beginning, middle, and end.
Then the one will have a beginning, middle, and end.
It will.
It will.
But, again, the middle will be equidistant from the extremes; or it would not be in the middle?
But, again, the middle will be equally distant from the extremes; otherwise, it wouldn't be in the middle?
Yes.
Yes.
Then the one will partake of figure, either rectilinear or round, or a union of the two?
Then will the one take on a shape, either straight or round, or a combination of both?
True.
True.
And if this is the case, it will be both in itself and in another too.
And if that's true, it will be true both on its own and in relation to something else as well.
How?
How?
Every part is in the whole, and none is outside the whole.
Every part is within the whole, and nothing exists outside the whole.
True.
True.
And all the parts are contained by the whole?
And are all the parts included in the whole?
Yes.
Yes.
And the one is all its parts, and neither more nor less than all?
And is the one equal to all its parts, nothing more and nothing less?
No.
No.
And the one is the whole?
Is the one everything?
Of course.
Sure.
But if all the parts are in the whole, and the one is all of them and the whole, and they are all contained by the whole, the one will be contained by the one; and thus the one will be in itself.
But if all the parts are in the whole, and the one includes all of them and the whole, and they are all held within the whole, the one will be contained by the one; and so the one will exist within itself.
That is true.
That's true.
But then, again, the whole is not in the parts—neither in all the parts, nor in some one of them. For if it is in all, it must be in one; for if there were any one in which it was not, it could not be in all the parts; for the part in which it is wanting is one of all, and if the whole is not in this, how can it be in them all?
But then again, the whole isn't in the parts—neither in all of them nor in just one. Because if it's in all the parts, it has to be in at least one; and if there's even one part where it's not present, then it can't be in all the parts. The part that lacks it is still one of the parts, and if the whole isn't in that one, how can it be in all of them?
It cannot.
It can't.
Nor can the whole be in some of the parts; for if the whole were in some of the parts, the greater would be in the less, which is impossible.
Nor can the whole exist in some of its parts; because if the whole were in some of the parts, then the greater would be in the smaller, which is impossible.
Yes, impossible.
Yeah, impossible.
But if the whole is neither in one, nor in more than one, nor in all of the parts, it must be in something else, or cease to be anywhere at all?
But if the whole isn't in one part, or in more than one part, or in all the parts, then it must be in something else, or it doesn't exist anywhere at all?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
If it were nowhere, it would be nothing; but being a whole, and not being in itself, it must be in another.
If it had no place, it would be nothing; but since it is a whole, and doesn't exist on its own, it has to be in something else.
Very true.
So true.
The one then, regarded as a whole, is in another, but regarded as being all its parts, is in itself; and therefore the one must be itself in itself and also in another.
The one, seen as a whole, exists in another, but when viewed as all its parts, it exists in itself; therefore, the one must be itself both in itself and also in another.
Certainly.
Sure.
The one then, being of this nature, is of necessity both at rest and in motion?
The one, being this way, is necessarily both at rest and in motion?
How?
How?
The one is at rest since it is in itself, for being in one, and not passing out of this, it is in the same, which is itself.
The one is at rest because it exists within itself; by being united and not moving beyond this, it remains in the same state, which is itself.
True.
True.
And that which is ever in the same, must be ever at rest?
And whatever is always the same must always be at rest?
Certainly.
Sure.
Well, and must not that, on the contrary, which is ever in other, never be in the same; and if never in the same, never at rest, and if not at rest, in motion?
Well, shouldn’t that mean that what is always in something else can never be in the same thing; and if it’s never in the same thing, it’s never at rest, and if it’s not at rest, it’s in motion?
True.
True.
Then the one being always itself in itself and other, must always be both at rest and in motion?
Then the one that is always itself in itself and also something else must always be both at rest and in motion?
Clearly.
Clearly.
And must be the same with itself, and other than itself; and also the same with the others, and other than the others; this follows from its previous affections.
And it has to be the same as itself, and different from itself; and also the same as the others, and different from the others; this comes from its previous characteristics.
How so?
How come?
Everything in relation to every other thing, is either the same or other; or if neither the same nor other, then in the relation of a part to a whole, or of a whole to a part.
Everything is connected to everything else, either in the same way or differently; or if it's neither the same nor different, then it's in the context of a part to a whole, or a whole to a part.
Clearly.
Clearly.
And is the one a part of itself?
And is the one a part of itself?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
Since it is not a part in relation to itself it cannot be related to itself as whole to part?
Since it doesn't relate to itself, can it be connected to itself as a whole to a part?
It cannot.
It can't.
But is the one other than one?
But is one different from one?
No.
No.
And therefore not other than itself?
And is it therefore nothing other than itself?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
If then it be neither other, nor a whole, nor a part in relation to itself, must it not be the same with itself?
If it’s neither something different, nor a whole, nor a part in relation to itself, shouldn’t it be the same as itself?
Certainly.
Sure.
But then, again, a thing which is in another place from 'itself,' if this 'itself' remains in the same place with itself, must be other than 'itself,' for it will be in another place?
But then again, something that is in a different location from 'itself,' if this 'itself' stays in the same place with itself, must be different from 'itself,' because it will be in another location?
True.
True.
Then the one has been shown to be at once in itself and in another?
Then has it been revealed that one exists both in itself and in another?
Yes.
Yes.
Thus, then, as appears, the one will be other than itself?
Thus, then, as it seems, will one be different from itself?
True.
True.
Well, then, if anything be other than anything, will it not be other than that which is other?
Well, if anything is different from anything else, isn’t it different from what is different?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And will not all things that are not one, be other than the one, and the one other than the not-one?
And isn't it true that everything that isn’t one is different from the one, and the one is different from what isn’t one?
Of course.
Sure thing.
Then the one will be other than the others?
Then will one be different from the others?
True.
True.
But, consider:—Are not the absolute same, and the absolute other, opposites to one another?
But think about this: Aren’t the exact same and the complete opposite, opposites to each other?
Of course.
Absolutely.
Then will the same ever be in the other, or the other in the same?
Then will the same always be in the other, or the other in the same?
They will not.
They won’t.
If then the other is never in the same, there is nothing in which the other is during any space of time; for during that space of time, however small, the other would be in the same. Is not that true?
If the other is never in the same place, then there's nothing the other occupies for any period of time; because during that period, no matter how brief, the other would actually be in the same place. Isn't that true?
Yes.
Yeah.
And since the other is never in the same, it can never be in anything that is.
And since the other is never the same, it can never be in anything that exists.
True.
True.
Then the other will never be either in the not-one, or in the one?
Then the other will never be either in the not-one or in the one?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
Then not by reason of otherness is the one other than the not-one, or the not-one other than the one.
Then the one isn't defined by being different from the not-one, nor is the not-one defined by being different from the one.
No.
No.
Nor by reason of themselves will they be other than one another, if not partaking of the other.
Nor will they be anything other than each other unless they share something in common.
How can they be?
How is that possible?
But if they are not other, either by reason of themselves or of the other, will they not altogether escape being other than one another?
But if they aren't different, whether because of themselves or each other, won't they completely avoid being different from one another?
They will.
They definitely will.
Again, the not-one cannot partake of the one; otherwise it would not have been not-one, but would have been in some way one.
Again, the not-one cannot be part of the one; otherwise, it wouldn't be not-one, but would somehow be one.
True.
True.
Nor can the not-one be number; for having number, it would not have been not-one at all.
Nor can the not-one be a number; because if it had a number, it would not be not-one at all.
It would not.
It won't.
Again, is the not-one part of the one; or rather, would it not in that case partake of the one?
Again, is the not-one part of the one; or rather, wouldn't it in that case share in the one?
It would.
It definitely would.
If then, in every point of view, the one and the not-one are distinct, then neither is the one part or whole of the not-one, nor is the not-one part or whole of the one?
If, from every perspective, the one and the not-one are different, then neither is the one a part or the whole of the not-one, nor is the not-one a part or the whole of the one?
No.
No.
But we said that things which are neither parts nor wholes of one another, nor other than one another, will be the same with one another:—so we said?
But we said that things which are neither parts nor wholes of each other, nor different from each other, will be the same as each other:—so we said?
Yes.
Yes.
Then shall we say that the one, being in this relation to the not-one, is the same with it?
Then should we say that the one, being in this relationship with the not-one, is the same as it?
Let us say so.
Let's say it.
Then it is the same with itself and the others, and also other than itself and the others.
Then it is the same with itself and others, and also different from itself and the others.
That appears to be the inference.
That seems to be the conclusion.
And it will also be like and unlike itself and the others?
And will it be both similar and different from itself and others?
Perhaps.
Maybe.
Since the one was shown to be other than the others, the others will also be other than the one.
Since one was shown to be different from the others, the others will also be different from that one.
Yes.
Yes.
And the one is other than the others in the same degree that the others are other than it, and neither more nor less?
And one is different from the others in the same way the others are different from it, neither more nor less.
True.
True.
And if neither more nor less, then in a like degree?
And if not more or less, then to the same extent?
Yes.
Yes.
In virtue of the affection by which the one is other than others and others in like manner other than it, the one will be affected like the others and the others like the one.
In the context of the love that makes one person different from others and others similarly different from that one, the one will be influenced like the others and the others will be influenced like the one.
How do you mean?
What do you mean?
I may take as an illustration the case of names: You give a name to a thing?
I can illustrate my point with names: Do you give a name to something?
Yes.
Yeah.
And you may say the name once or oftener?
And can you say the name once or multiple times?
Yes.
Yes.
And when you say it once, you mention that of which it is the name? and when more than once, is it something else which you mention? or must it always be the same thing of which you speak, whether you utter the name once or more than once?
And when you say it once, are you referring to what it actually is? And when you say it more than once, are you talking about something different? Or does it always refer to the same thing, whether you say the name once or multiple times?
Of course it is the same.
It's definitely the same.
And is not 'other' a name given to a thing?
And isn't 'other' just a term used for something?
Certainly.
Sure.
Whenever, then, you use the word 'other,' whether once or oftener, you name that of which it is the name, and to no other do you give the name?
Whenever you use the word 'other,' whether once or multiple times, you're referring to what it represents, and you don't use that name for anything else?
True.
True.
Then when we say that the others are other than the one, and the one other than the others, in repeating the word 'other' we speak of that nature to which the name is applied, and of no other?
Then when we say that the others are different from the one, and the one is different from the others, by repeating the word 'other' we refer to that nature to which the name applies, and nothing else?
Quite true.
Absolutely.
Then the one which is other than others, and the other which is other than the one, in that the word 'other' is applied to both, will be in the same condition; and that which is in the same condition is like?
Then the one that is different from the others, and the other that is different from the one, since the term 'different' is used for both, will be in the same situation; and what is in the same situation is similar?
Yes.
Yes.
Then in virtue of the affection by which the one is other than the others, every thing will be like every thing, for every thing is other than every thing.
Then, because of the connection that makes one thing different from another, everything will be like everything else, since everything is different from everything.
True.
True.
Again, the like is opposed to the unlike?
Again, is the same opposed to the different?
Yes.
Yes.
And the other to the same?
And the other one as well?
True again.
True again.
And the one was also shown to be the same with the others?
And was the one also proven to be the same as the others?
Yes.
Yes.
And to be the same with the others is the opposite of being other than the others?
And is being the same as others really the opposite of being different from them?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And in that it was other it was shown to be like?
And in what way was it different, it was shown to be similar?
Yes.
Yes.
But in that it was the same it will be unlike by virtue of the opposite affection to that which made it like; and this was the affection of otherness.
But even though it was the same, it would be different because of the opposite feeling compared to what made it the same; and this was the feeling of being different.
Yes.
Yep.
The same then will make it unlike; otherwise it will not be the opposite of the other.
The same will make it different; otherwise, it won't be the opposite of the other.
True.
True.
Then the one will be both like and unlike the others; like in so far as it is other, and unlike in so far as it is the same.
Then the one will be both similar to and different from the others; similar in that it is distinct, and different in that it is the same.
Yes, that argument may be used.
Yes, that argument can be used.
And there is another argument.
And there's another argument.
What?
What’s up?
In so far as it is affected in the same way it is not affected otherwise, and not being affected otherwise is not unlike, and not being unlike, is like; but in so far as it is affected by other it is otherwise, and being otherwise affected is unlike.
In the ways it's affected similarly, it isn't affected in other ways, and not being affected in other ways is somewhat similar, and not being similar is different; but in the ways it's affected by something else, it's different, and being differently affected is unlike.
True.
True.
Then because the one is the same with the others and other than the others, on either of these two grounds, or on both of them, it will be both like and unlike the others?
Then, because one is the same as the others and different from the others, based on either of these two reasons, or both, it will be both like and unlike the others?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And in the same way as being other than itself and the same with itself, on either of these two grounds and on both of them, it will be like and unlike itself?
And just like being different from itself and the same as itself, based on either of these two ideas and both of them, will it be like and unlike itself?
Of course.
Of course.
Again, how far can the one touch or not touch itself and others?—consider.
Again, how far can one touch or not touch themselves and others?—think about it.
I am considering.
I'm thinking about it.
The one was shown to be in itself which was a whole?
The one was revealed to be a complete entity in itself.
True.
True.
And also in other things?
And what about other things?
Yes.
Yes.
In so far as it is in other things it would touch other things, but in so far as it is in itself it would be debarred from touching them, and would touch itself only.
Insofar as it relates to other things, it would interact with them, but in terms of its own essence, it would be prevented from interacting with anything else and would only engage with itself.
Clearly.
Clearly.
Then the inference is that it would touch both?
Then the conclusion is that it would involve both?
It would.
It would.
But what do you say to a new point of view? Must not that which is to touch another be next to that which it is to touch, and occupy the place nearest to that in which what it touches is situated?
But what do you think about a new perspective? Isn't it true that for something to affect another, it must be close to what it's affecting and occupy the space nearest to it?
True.
True.
Then the one, if it is to touch itself, ought to be situated next to itself, and occupy the place next to that in which itself is?
Then the one, if it is to touch itself, should be positioned next to itself, and take the place right next to where it is?
It ought.
It should.
And that would require that the one should be two, and be in two places at once, and this, while it is one, will never happen.
And that would mean that one must become two and be in two places at the same time, and this, while it remains one, will never happen.
No.
No.
Then the one cannot touch itself any more than it can be two?
Then the one cannot touch itself any more than it can be two?
It cannot.
It can't.
Neither can it touch others.
It can't affect others either.
Why not?
Why not?
The reason is, that whatever is to touch another must be in separation from, and next to, that which it is to touch, and no third thing can be between them.
The reason is that anything meant to touch another must be separated from and adjacent to the thing it’s touching, with no third object in between.
True.
True.
Two things, then, at the least are necessary to make contact possible?
Two things, then, at least are necessary to make contact possible?
They are.
They are.
And if to the two a third be added in due order, the number of terms will be three, and the contacts two?
And if a third is added to the two in the right sequence, there will be three terms and two contacts?
Yes.
Yes.
And every additional term makes one additional contact, whence it follows that the contacts are one less in number than the terms; the first two terms exceeded the number of contacts by one, and the whole number of terms exceeds the whole number of contacts by one in like manner; and for every one which is afterwards added to the number of terms, one contact is added to the contacts.
And every extra term creates one extra contact, which means that the number of contacts is one less than the number of terms. The first two terms have one more than the number of contacts, and the total number of terms also exceeds the total number of contacts by one in the same way. For every additional term added, there is one additional contact created.
True.
True.
Whatever is the whole number of things, the contacts will be always one less.
Whatever the total number of things is, the contacts will always be one less.
True.
True.
But if there be only one, and not two, there will be no contact?
But if there is only one, and not two, will there be no contact?
How can there be?
How is that possible?
And do we not say that the others being other than the one are not one and have no part in the one?
And don’t we say that the others, being different from the one, are not one and have no share in the one?
True.
True.
Then they have no number, if they have no one in them?
Then they have no number if there’s no one in them?
Of course not.
Definitely not.
Then the others are neither one nor two, nor are they called by the name of any number?
Then the others are neither one nor two, nor are they referred to by any number?
No.
No.
One, then, alone is one, and two do not exist?
One, then, is alone one, and two doesn’t exist?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
And if there are not two, there is no contact?
And if there aren't two, is there no connection?
There is not.
There isn't.
Then neither does the one touch the others, nor the others the one, if there is no contact?
Then neither does one touch the others, nor do the others touch the one, if there is no contact?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
For all which reasons the one touches and does not touch itself and the others?
For all these reasons, why does one touch and not touch itself and the others?
True.
True.
Further—is the one equal and unequal to itself and others?
Further—is the one equal and unequal to itself and to others?
How do you mean?
What do you mean?
If the one were greater or less than the others, or the others greater or less than the one, they would not be greater or less than each other in virtue of their being the one and the others; but, if in addition to their being what they are they had equality, they would be equal to one another, or if the one had smallness and the others greatness, or the one had greatness and the others smallness—whichever kind had greatness would be greater, and whichever had smallness would be smaller?
If one was greater or less than the others, or if the others were greater or less than the one, they wouldn’t be greater or less than each other just because one is the one and the others are the others. However, if in addition to being what they are they had equality, they would be equal to each other. Or if one was smaller and the others were larger, or if one was larger and the others were smaller—whichever group was larger would be greater, and whichever group was smaller would be smaller?
Certainly.
Of course.
Then there are two such ideas as greatness and smallness; for if they were not they could not be opposed to each other and be present in that which is.
Then there are two ideas like greatness and smallness; because if they didn’t exist, they couldn’t be opposed to each other and be part of what exists.
How could they?
How could they do that?
If, then, smallness is present in the one it will be present either in the whole or in a part of the whole?
If smallness is present in one thing, will it be present in the whole or in a part of the whole?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Suppose the first; it will be either co-equal and co-extensive with the whole one, or will contain the one?
Suppose the first; it will either be equal to and cover the whole, or it will include the whole?
Clearly.
Clearly.
If it be co-extensive with the one it will be co-equal with the one, or if containing the one it will be greater than the one?
If it is the same size as the one, it will be equal to it, or if it contains the one, it will be larger than it?
Of course.
Of course.
But can smallness be equal to anything or greater than anything, and have the functions of greatness and equality and not its own functions?
But can smallness be equal to anything or greater than anything, and have the qualities of greatness and equality without having its own qualities?
Impossible.
No way.
Then smallness cannot be in the whole of one, but, if at all, in a part only?
Then smallness can't be in the entirety of one, but, if it exists, it can only be in a part?
Yes.
Yes.
And surely not in all of a part, for then the difficulty of the whole will recur; it will be equal to or greater than any part in which it is.
And definitely not in any part, because then the difficulty of the whole will come back; it will be equal to or greater than any part where it exists.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then smallness will not be in anything, whether in a whole or in a part; nor will there be anything small but actual smallness.
Then smallness won’t exist in anything, whether in a whole or in a part; nor will there be anything small except for actual smallness.
True.
True.
Neither will greatness be in the one, for if greatness be in anything there will be something greater other and besides greatness itself, namely, that in which greatness is; and this too when the small itself is not there, which the one, if it is great, must exceed; this, however, is impossible, seeing that smallness is wholly absent.
Greatness can't exist in one thing alone because if something is great, there has to be something greater than greatness itself, which is the context in which greatness exists. And this holds true even when smallness, which the great thing must surpass, isn't present at all. However, this is impossible because smallness is completely absent.
True.
True.
But absolute greatness is only greater than absolute smallness, and smallness is only smaller than absolute greatness.
But absolute greatness is only greater than absolute smallness, and smallness is only smaller than absolute greatness.
Very true.
So true.
Then other things not greater or less than the one, if they have neither greatness nor smallness; nor have greatness or smallness any power of exceeding or being exceeded in relation to the one, but only in relation to one another; nor will the one be greater or less than them or others, if it has neither greatness nor smallness.
Then other things that are neither greater nor lesser than the one, if they don't possess any size; nor do size or smallness have the ability to surpass or be surpassed in relation to the one, but only in relation to each other; nor will the one be greater or lesser than them or others, if it doesn’t have any size.
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then if the one is neither greater nor less than the others, it cannot either exceed or be exceeded by them?
Then if one is neither greater nor less than the others, it can't exceed or be exceeded by them?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
And that which neither exceeds nor is exceeded, must be on an equality; and being on an equality, must be equal.
And what neither goes beyond nor falls short must be equal; and being equal, must be the same.
Of course.
Of course.
And this will be true also of the relation of the one to itself; having neither greatness nor smallness in itself, it will neither exceed nor be exceeded by itself, but will be on an equality with and equal to itself.
And this will also apply to the relationship of the one to itself; having neither greatness nor smallness within itself, it will neither surpass nor be surpassed by itself, but will be equal to and on the same level as itself.
Certainly.
Sure.
Then the one will be equal both to itself and the others?
Then will one be equal to both itself and others?
Clearly so.
Definitely.
And yet the one, being itself in itself, will also surround and be without itself; and, as containing itself, will be greater than itself; and, as contained in itself, will be less; and will thus be greater and less than itself.
And yet the one, existing within itself, will also encompass and be outside of itself; and, by containing itself, will be greater than itself; and, by being contained within itself, will be less; and will thus be both greater and less than itself.
It will.
It definitely will.
Now there cannot possibly be anything which is not included in the one and the others?
Now, there can't possibly be anything that isn't included in one or the other?
Of course not.
Of course not.
But, surely, that which is must always be somewhere?
But, surely, whatever exists has to be somewhere?
Yes.
Yes.
But that which is in anything will be less, and that in which it is will be greater; in no other way can one thing be in another.
But whatever is inside something will be smaller, and whatever contains it will be bigger; there’s no other way for one thing to be inside another.
True.
True.
And since there is nothing other or besides the one and the others, and they must be in something, must they not be in one another, the one in the others and the others in the one, if they are to be anywhere?
And since there is nothing else except the one and the others, and they have to exist in something, shouldn't they exist in each other, with the one in the others and the others in the one, if they are to exist at all?
That is clear.
That's clear.
But inasmuch as the one is in the others, the others will be greater than the one, because they contain the one, which will be less than the others, because it is contained in them; and inasmuch as the others are in the one, the one on the same principle will be greater than the others, and the others less than the one.
But since one is part of the others, the others will be greater than the one because they include the one, which will be smaller than the others because it is included in them; and since the others are part of the one, the one will, for the same reason, be greater than the others, making the others smaller than the one.
True.
True.
The one, then, will be equal to and greater and less than itself and the others?
The one will be equal to, greater than, and less than itself and the others?
Clearly.
Clearly.
And if it be greater and less and equal, it will be of equal and more and less measures or divisions than itself and the others, and if of measures, also of parts?
And if it is greater, less, or equal, it will have equal and more and less measures or divisions than itself and the others. If it has measures, does it also have parts?
Of course.
Of course.
And if of equal and more and less measures or divisions, it will be in number more or less than itself and the others, and likewise equal in number to itself and to the others?
And if there are equal and different measures or divisions, will it have a number that is more or less than itself and the others, and also be equal in number to itself and the others?
How is that?
How's that?
It will be of more measures than those things which it exceeds, and of as many parts as measures; and so with that to which it is equal, and that than which it is less.
It will have more measurements than the things it surpasses, and as many parts as measurements; and similarly with that to which it is equal, and that which is smaller than it.
True.
True.
And being greater and less than itself, and equal to itself, it will be of equal measures with itself and of more and fewer measures than itself; and if of measures then also of parts?
And being greater and smaller than itself, and equal to itself, it will be of equal proportions with itself and of more and fewer proportions than itself; and if there are proportions, then are there also parts?
It will.
It definitely will.
And being of equal parts with itself, it will be numerically equal to itself; and being of more parts, more, and being of less, less than itself?
And being made of equal parts with itself, it will be numerically equal to itself; and if it has more parts, it will be more, and if it has fewer parts, it will be less than itself?
Certainly.
Sure.
And the same will hold of its relation to other things; inasmuch as it is greater than them, it will be more in number than them; and inasmuch as it is smaller, it will be less in number; and inasmuch as it is equal in size to other things, it will be equal to them in number.
And the same will apply to its relationship with other things; if it is bigger than them, there will be more of it; if it is smaller, there will be fewer; and if it is the same size as other things, it will be equal in quantity to them.
Certainly.
Of course.
Once more, then, as would appear, the one will be in number both equal to and more and less than both itself and all other things.
Once again, it seems that one will be in number both equal to and different from itself and all other things.
It will.
It definitely will.
Does the one also partake of time? And is it and does it become older and younger than itself and others, and again, neither younger nor older than itself and others, by virtue of participation in time?
Does the one also experience time? Does it become older or younger than itself and others, or is it neither younger nor older than itself and others due to its connection with time?
How do you mean?
What do you mean?
If one is, being must be predicated of it?
If something exists, then it must be described as being?
Yes.
Yeah.
But to be (einai) is only participation of being in present time, and to have been is the participation of being at a past time, and to be about to be is the participation of being at a future time?
But to be is just participation in existence in the present, and to have been is the participation in existence at a past time, and to be about to be is the participation in existence at a future time?
Very true.
Absolutely true.
Then the one, since it partakes of being, partakes of time?
Then the one, because it has existence, also has a presence in time?
Certainly.
Of course.
And is not time always moving forward?
And isn't time always moving forward?
Yes.
Yes.
Then the one is always becoming older than itself, since it moves forward in time?
Then the one is always getting older than itself, since it moves forward in time?
Certainly.
Sure.
And do you remember that the older becomes older than that which becomes younger?
And do you remember that the older becomes older than what becomes younger?
I remember.
I remember.
Then since the one becomes older than itself, it becomes younger at the same time?
Then, as one gets older, do they also become younger at the same time?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Thus, then, the one becomes older as well as younger than itself?
Thus, then, does one become older as well as younger than oneself?
Yes.
Yeah.
And it is older (is it not?) when in becoming, it gets to the point of time between 'was' and 'will be,' which is 'now': for surely in going from the past to the future, it cannot skip the present?
And it's older (isn't it?) when it becomes aware of the moment between 'was' and 'will be,' which is 'now': because when moving from the past to the future, it can't skip the present, right?
No.
No.
And when it arrives at the present it stops from becoming older, and no longer becomes, but is older, for if it went on it would never be reached by the present, for it is the nature of that which goes on, to touch both the present and the future, letting go the present and seizing the future, while in process of becoming between them.
And when it gets to the present, it stops aging and becomes older, because if it kept going, the present would never catch up with it. It's the nature of what continues to move forward to interact with both the present and the future, releasing the present while grasping the future, all the while changing in between.
True.
True.
But that which is becoming cannot skip the present; when it reaches the present it ceases to become, and is then whatever it may happen to be becoming.
But what is becoming can't skip the present; once it reaches the present, it stops becoming and is then whatever it has turned into.
Clearly.
Clearly.
And so the one, when in becoming older it reaches the present, ceases to become, and is then older.
And so, when a person gets older and reaches the present, they stop changing and are simply older.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And it is older than that than which it was becoming older, and it was becoming older than itself.
And it is older than what it was getting older than, and it was getting older than itself.
Yes.
Yes.
And that which is older is older than that which is younger?
And what’s older is older than what’s younger?
True.
True.
Then the one is younger than itself, when in becoming older it reaches the present?
Then is one younger than itself, when as it gets older it reaches the present?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
But the present is always present with the one during all its being; for whenever it is it is always now.
But the present is always with us throughout our existence; because whenever it is, it's always now.
Certainly.
Sure.
Then the one always both is and becomes older and younger than itself?
Then the one is always both older and younger than itself?
Truly.
For real.
And is it or does it become a longer time than itself or an equal time with itself?
And is it, or does it turn into a longer time than itself or the same amount of time as itself?
An equal time.
Equal opportunity.
But if it becomes or is for an equal time with itself, it is of the same age with itself?
But if it becomes or is equal to itself for the same amount of time, is it the same age as itself?
Of course.
Of course.
And that which is of the same age, is neither older nor younger?
And what is the same age is neither older nor younger?
No.
No.
The one, then, becoming and being the same time with itself, neither is nor becomes older or younger than itself?
The one, then, existing and becoming at the same time as itself, is neither older nor younger than itself?
I should say not.
I wouldn't say that.
And what are its relations to other things? Is it or does it become older or younger than they?
And what are its relationships with other things? Does it age or become younger than them?
I cannot tell you.
I can't tell you.
You can at least tell me that others than the one are more than the one—other would have been one, but the others have multitude, and are more than one?
You can at least tell me that there are others besides the one, and that more than one exists—there could have been just one, but the others are many, making them more than just one?
They will have multitude.
They will have many.
And a multitude implies a number larger than one?
And a multitude means a number greater than one?
Of course.
Absolutely.
And shall we say that the lesser or the greater is the first to come or to have come into existence?
And should we say that the smaller or the larger is the first to arrive or to have come into being?
The lesser.
The lesser.
Then the least is the first? And that is the one?
Then the least is the first? And that is the one?
Yes.
Yes.
Then the one of all things that have number is the first to come into being; but all other things have also number, being plural and not singular.
Then the one thing that has a number is the first to exist; but all other things also have numbers, being multiple and not just one.
They have.
They do.
And since it came into being first it must be supposed to have come into being prior to the others, and the others later; and the things which came into being later, are younger than that which preceded them? And so the other things will be younger than the one, and the one older than other things?
And since it was created first, we can assume it existed before the others, which came afterward. The things that were created later are younger than what came before them. So, the other things will be younger than that one, and that one will be older than the others.
True.
True.
What would you say of another question? Can the one have come into being contrary to its own nature, or is that impossible?
What do you think about another question? Can something come into existence against its own nature, or is that not possible?
Impossible.
Not happening.
And yet, surely, the one was shown to have parts; and if parts, then a beginning, middle and end?
And yet, it was clearly shown that it had parts; and if it has parts, then it must have a beginning, middle, and end?
Yes.
Yes.
And a beginning, both of the one itself and of all other things, comes into being first of all; and after the beginning, the others follow, until you reach the end?
And a beginning, both of itself and everything else, comes into being first; and after the beginning, the others follow, until you reach the end?
Certainly.
Sure.
And all these others we shall affirm to be parts of the whole and of the one, which, as soon as the end is reached, has become whole and one?
And we will say that all these others are parts of the whole and of the one, which, once the end is reached, has become complete and unified?
Yes; that is what we shall say.
Yep, that's what we'll say.
But the end comes last, and the one is of such a nature as to come into being with the last; and, since the one cannot come into being except in accordance with its own nature, its nature will require that it should come into being after the others, simultaneously with the end.
But the end comes last, and the one is of such a nature that it only comes into being with the last; and, since the one cannot come into existence except according to its own nature, its nature demands that it should come into being after the others, at the same time as the end.
Clearly.
Clearly.
Then the one is younger than the others and the others older than the one.
Then one is younger than the others, and the others are older than that one.
That also is clear in my judgment.
That is also clear in my opinion.
Well, and must not a beginning or any other part of the one or of anything, if it be a part and not parts, being a part, be also of necessity one?
Well, doesn't a beginning or any single part of something, if it is a part and not multiple parts, have to also be one by necessity?
Certainly.
Sure.
And will not the one come into being together with each part—together with the first part when that comes into being, and together with the second part and with all the rest, and will not be wanting to any part, which is added to any other part until it has reached the last and become one whole; it will be wanting neither to the middle, nor to the first, nor to the last, nor to any of them, while the process of becoming is going on?
And won't everything come into being along with each part—starting with the first part when it comes into being, and along with the second part and all the others, and it won’t be missing anything that’s added to any other part until it reaches the end and becomes one whole; it won’t be lacking in the middle, or the first, or the last, or any of them, while the process of becoming is happening?
True.
True.
Then the one is of the same age with all the others, so that if the one itself does not contradict its own nature, it will be neither prior nor posterior to the others, but simultaneous; and according to this argument the one will be neither older nor younger than the others, nor the others than the one, but according to the previous argument the one will be older and younger than the others and the others than the one.
Then the one is the same age as all the others, so if the one doesn’t contradict its own nature, it will neither come before nor after the others, but will exist at the same time. According to this reasoning, the one won’t be older or younger than the others, nor will the others be older or younger than the one. However, based on the earlier argument, the one will be both older and younger than the others, and the others will be both older and younger than the one.
Certainly.
Sure.
After this manner then the one is and has become. But as to its becoming older and younger than the others, and the others than the one, and neither older nor younger, what shall we say? Shall we say as of being so also of becoming, or otherwise?
After this way, then, the one is and has become. But what about it becoming older and younger than the others, and the others than the one, and neither older nor younger—what should we say? Should we say that becoming is the same as being, or something else?
I cannot answer.
I can't answer.
But I can venture to say, that even if one thing were older or younger than another, it could not become older or younger in a greater degree than it was at first; for equals added to unequals, whether to periods of time or to anything else, leave the difference between them the same as at first.
But I can confidently say that even if one thing is older or younger than another, it can't become older or younger any more than it was initially; because adding equal amounts to unequal ones, whether it's time periods or anything else, keeps the difference between them the same as it was at the beginning.
Of course.
Sure thing.
Then that which is, cannot become older or younger than that which is, since the difference of age is always the same; the one is and has become older and the other younger; but they are no longer becoming so.
Then what exists cannot become older or younger than what exists, since the age difference always stays the same; one has aged and the other has become younger; but they are no longer in the process of changing.
True.
True.
And the one which is does not therefore become either older or younger than the others which are.
And the one that exists doesn’t become older or younger than the others that exist.
No.
No.
But consider whether they may not become older and younger in another way.
But think about whether they might age and become younger in a different way.
In what way?
How so?
Just as the one was proven to be older than the others and the others than the one.
Just as one was shown to be older than the others and the others were shown to be older than one.
And what of that?
So what about that?
If the one is older than the others, has come into being a longer time than the others.
If one is older than the others, it has existed for a longer time than the others.
Yes.
Yes.
But consider again; if we add equal time to a greater and a less time, will the greater differ from the less time by an equal or by a smaller portion than before?
But think about this again: if we add the same amount of time to a longer and a shorter time, will the longer one differ from the shorter one by the same amount or by a smaller portion than it did before?
By a smaller portion.
In a smaller portion.
Then the difference between the age of the one and the age of the others will not be afterwards so great as at first, but if an equal time be added to both of them they will differ less and less in age?
Then the difference in age between one person and the others won't be as significant later on as it is at first, but if the same amount of time is added to both, they will become less and less different in age?
Yes.
Yes.
And that which differs in age from some other less than formerly, from being older will become younger in relation to that other than which it was older?
And what is older than something else will seem younger in comparison to that other thing that it was older than?
Yes, younger.
Yeah, younger.
And if the one becomes younger the others aforesaid will become older than they were before, in relation to the one.
And if one person gets younger, the others mentioned will get older than they were before, in relation to that person.
Certainly.
Sure.
Then that which had become younger becomes older relatively to that which previously had become and was older; it never really is older, but is always becoming, for the one is always growing on the side of youth and the other on the side of age. And in like manner the older is always in process of becoming younger than the younger; for as they are always going in opposite directions they become in ways the opposite to one another, the younger older than the older, and the older younger than the younger. They cannot, however, have become; for if they had already become they would be and not merely become. But that is impossible; for they are always becoming both older and younger than one another: the one becomes younger than the others because it was seen to be older and prior, and the others become older than the one because they came into being later; and in the same way the others are in the same relation to the one, because they were seen to be older, and prior to the one.
Then what has become younger becomes older in relation to what was previously older; it never truly is older but is always in the process of becoming. One side is always advancing toward youth, while the other is moving toward age. Similarly, the older is always becoming younger than the younger; since they are constantly moving in opposite directions, they transform in ways that are contrary to each other—the younger appears older than the older, and the older looks younger than the younger. However, they cannot have truly become; if they had achieved that, they would be, rather than just be in the process of becoming. But that’s impossible; they are always becoming both older and younger relative to one another: one becomes younger than the others because it was seen as older and prior, while the others become older than it because they came into existence later. In the same way, the others are in the same relation to the one, as they were seen to be older and prior to it.
That is clear.
That's clear.
Inasmuch then, one thing does not become older or younger than another, in that they always differ from each other by an equal number, the one cannot become older or younger than the others, nor the others than the one; but inasmuch as that which came into being earlier and that which came into being later must continually differ from each other by a different portion—in this point of view the others must become older and younger than the one, and the one than the others.
In this way, one thing doesn't grow older or younger than another, since they always differ from each other by the same amount. One cannot become older or younger than the others, nor can the others become older or younger than the one. However, because that which appeared first and that which appeared later must always differ from each other by a different amount—in this sense, the others must become older and younger than the one, and the one must become older or younger than the others.
Certainly.
Sure.
For all these reasons, then, the one is and becomes older and younger than itself and the others, and neither is nor becomes older or younger than itself or the others.
For all these reasons, the one is and becomes older and younger than itself and the others, and neither is nor becomes older or younger than itself or the others.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
But since the one partakes of time, and partakes of becoming older and younger, must it not also partake of the past, the present, and the future?
But since one experiences time and goes through becoming older and younger, must it not also experience the past, the present, and the future?
Of course it must.
It's a must.
Then the one was and is and will be, and was becoming and is becoming and will become?
Then the one is, was, and will be, and is becoming, was becoming, and will become?
Certainly.
Of course.
And there is and was and will be something which is in relation to it and belongs to it?
And there is, was, and will be something that is connected to it and belongs to it?
True.
True.
And since we have at this moment opinion and knowledge and perception of the one, there is opinion and knowledge and perception of it?
And since we currently have opinions, knowledge, and understanding of the one, do we also have opinions, knowledge, and understanding of it?
Quite right.
Absolutely.
Then there is name and expression for it, and it is named and expressed, and everything of this kind which appertains to other things appertains to the one.
Then there is a name and a way to express it, and it is named and expressed, and everything related to this kind also relates to the one.
Certainly, that is true.
For sure, that's true.
Yet once more and for the third time, let us consider: If the one is both one and many, as we have described, and is neither one nor many, and participates in time, must it not, in as far as it is one, at times partake of being, and in as far as it is not one, at times not partake of being?
Yet again, for the third time, let’s think about this: If the one is both one and many, as we've stated, and is neither one nor many, and exists in time, then must it not, to the extent that it is one, sometimes have being, and to the extent that it is not one, sometimes lack being?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
But can it partake of being when not partaking of being, or not partake of being when partaking of being?
But can it be part of existence when it isn't, or not be part of existence when it is?
Impossible.
Not possible.
Then the one partakes and does not partake of being at different times, for that is the only way in which it can partake and not partake of the same.
Then one experiences and doesn't experience being at different times, for that's the only way it can experience and not experience the same.
True.
True.
And is there not also a time at which it assumes being and relinquishes being—for how can it have and not have the same thing unless it receives and also gives it up at some time?
And isn't there also a time when it takes on existence and then lets go of it—how can it have and not have the same thing unless it both receives it and gives it up at some point?
Impossible.
Not possible.
And the assuming of being is what you would call becoming?
And is that what you would call becoming?
I should.
I should.
And the relinquishing of being you would call destruction?
And you would call the letting go of being destruction?
I should.
I really should.
The one then, as would appear, becomes and is destroyed by taking and giving up being.
The person, it seems, comes into existence and is lost by accepting and letting go of existence.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And being one and many and in process of becoming and being destroyed, when it becomes one it ceases to be many, and when many, it ceases to be one?
And being both one and many, and constantly changing and being destroyed, when it becomes one, it stops being many, and when it’s many, it stops being one?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And as it becomes one and many, must it not inevitably experience separation and aggregation?
And as it becomes one and many, doesn’t it have to go through separation and coming together?
Inevitably.
Sure thing.
And whenever it becomes like and unlike it must be assimilated and dissimilated?
And whenever something becomes similar or different, must it be taken in and let go?
Yes.
Yes.
And when it becomes greater or less or equal it must grow or diminish or be equalized?
And when it becomes greater, smaller, or equal, must it increase, decrease, or be balanced?
True.
True.
And when being in motion it rests, and when being at rest it changes to motion, it can surely be in no time at all?
And when it's moving, it feels still, and when it's still, it shifts to movement. It can’t really be in just one state for any length of time, right?
How can it?
How can it?
But that a thing which is previously at rest should be afterwards in motion, or previously in motion and afterwards at rest, without experiencing change, is impossible.
But it's impossible for something that is at rest to suddenly be in motion, or for something that is in motion to come to a stop, without undergoing a change.
Impossible.
Not happening.
And surely there cannot be a time in which a thing can be at once neither in motion nor at rest?
And surely there can't be a time when something is neither in motion nor at rest?
There cannot.
Not possible.
But neither can it change without changing.
But it can’t change without changing.
True.
True.
When then does it change; for it cannot change either when at rest, or when in motion, or when in time?
When does it change then? It can't change when it's at rest, or when it's in motion, or when it's in time?
It cannot.
It can't.
And does this strange thing in which it is at the time of changing really exist?
And does this weird thing that happens during change actually exist?
What thing?
What thing?
The moment. For the moment seems to imply a something out of which change takes place into either of two states; for the change is not from the state of rest as such, nor from the state of motion as such; but there is this curious nature which we call the moment lying between rest and motion, not being in any time; and into this and out of this what is in motion changes into rest, and what is at rest into motion.
The moment. It feels like a point that signals a transition into one of two states; the change doesn't come from rest itself or from motion itself, but there's this interesting concept we refer to as the moment that exists between rest and motion, not tied to any specific time. Within this moment, things in motion shift to rest, and things at rest shift to motion.
So it appears.
Looks like it.
And the one then, since it is at rest and also in motion, will change to either, for only in this way can it be in both. And in changing it changes in a moment, and when it is changing it will be in no time, and will not then be either in motion or at rest.
And the one then, since it is at rest and also in motion, will change to either state, because only this way can it be both. And in changing, it changes in an instant, and while it is changing, it won’t take any time, and so it will not be in motion or at rest.
It will not.
It won't.
And it will be in the same case in relation to the other changes, when it passes from being into cessation of being, or from not-being into becoming—then it passes between certain states of motion and rest, and neither is nor is not, nor becomes nor is destroyed.
And it will be the same for the other changes when it goes from existence to non-existence, or from non-existence to existence—then it transitions between certain states of motion and rest, and it is neither being nor not being, nor becoming nor ceasing to exist.
Very true.
So true.
And on the same principle, in the passage from one to many and from many to one, the one is neither one nor many, neither separated nor aggregated; and in the passage from like to unlike, and from unlike to like, it is neither like nor unlike, neither in a state of assimilation nor of dissimilation; and in the passage from small to great and equal and back again, it will be neither small nor great, nor equal, nor in a state of increase, or diminution, or equalization.
And based on the same idea, when moving from one to many and from many to one, the one is neither just one nor many, neither separated nor combined; and when shifting from similar to different and from different to similar, it is neither similar nor different, neither merging nor separating; and in the transition from small to large and equal and back again, it will be neither small nor large, nor equal, nor increasing, decreasing, or leveling out.
True.
True.
All these, then, are the affections of the one, if the one has being.
All of these are the emotions of the one, if the one exists.
Of course.
Sure.
1.aa. But if one is, what will happen to the others—is not that also to be considered?
1.aa. But if one is, what will happen to the others—isn't that something to think about too?
Yes.
Yes.
Let us show then, if one is, what will be the affections of the others than the one.
Let us demonstrate, if one exists, what the feelings of the others will be in relation to that one.
Let us do so.
Let's do it.
Inasmuch as there are things other than the one, the others are not the one; for if they were they could not be other than the one.
As long as there are things that aren't the one, those others can't be the one; because if they were, they couldn't be anything other than the one.
Very true.
Absolutely.
Nor are the others altogether without the one, but in a certain way they participate in the one.
Nor are the others completely without the one, but in some way they share in the one.
In what way?
How so?
Because the others are other than the one inasmuch as they have parts; for if they had no parts they would be simply one.
Because the others are different from the one since they have parts; if they didn't have parts, they would just be a single entity.
Right.
Alright.
And parts, as we affirm, have relation to a whole?
And do parts, as we say, relate to a whole?
So we say.
So we say.
And a whole must necessarily be one made up of many; and the parts will be parts of the one, for each of the parts is not a part of many, but of a whole.
And a whole must be made up of many parts; and the parts will be parts of the one, because each part belongs to the whole, not to many.
How do you mean?
What do you mean?
If anything were a part of many, being itself one of them, it will surely be a part of itself, which is impossible, and it will be a part of each one of the other parts, if of all; for if not a part of some one, it will be a part of all the others but this one, and thus will not be a part of each one; and if not a part of each, one it will not be a part of any one of the many; and not being a part of any one, it cannot be a part or anything else of all those things of none of which it is anything.
If something is part of many things, and it's one of them, then it must be part of itself, which can't happen. It will be part of each of the other parts if it's part of all; because if it's not part of one, it will be part of all the others except that one, and then it won’t be part of each one. If it's not part of each one, then it won’t be part of any of the many; and if it’s not part of any one, it can’t be part of anything among those things of which it is not a part.
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Then the part is not a part of the many, nor of all, but is of a certain single form, which we call a whole, being one perfect unity framed out of all—of this the part will be a part.
Then the part is not just one of many or of all, but belongs to a specific single form, which we call a whole, being one perfect unity made up of everything—of this, the part will be a part.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
If, then, the others have parts, they will participate in the whole and in the one.
If the others have roles, they'll be part of the whole and of the one.
True.
True.
Then the others than the one must be one perfect whole, having parts.
Then the others, apart from the one, must be a complete whole, consisting of different parts.
Certainly.
Sure.
And the same argument holds of each part, for the part must participate in the one; for if each of the parts is a part, this means, I suppose, that it is one separate from the rest and self-related; otherwise it is not each.
And the same argument applies to each part because the part must be connected to the whole; if each part is indeed a part, it means, I assume, that it is one separate from the rest and self-contained; otherwise, it wouldn’t be distinct.
True.
True.
But when we speak of the part participating in the one, it must clearly be other than one; for if not, it would not merely have participated, but would have been one; whereas only the itself can be one.
But when we talk about the part that takes part in the one, it clearly has to be different from one; because if it weren't, it wouldn't just have taken part, it would be one; while only the one itself can be one.
Very true.
So true.
Both the whole and the part must participate in the one; for the whole will be one whole, of which the parts will be parts; and each part will be one part of the whole which is the whole of the part.
Both the whole and the parts need to be part of the one; because the whole will be one complete entity, with the parts being parts of that entity; and each part will be one segment of the whole, which represents the entire part.
True.
True.
And will not the things which participate in the one, be other than it?
And won't the things that share in the one be different from it?
Of course.
Sure thing.
And the things which are other than the one will be many; for if the things which are other than the one were neither one nor more than one, they would be nothing.
And the things that are not the one will be many; because if the things that are not the one were neither one nor more than one, they would be nothing.
True.
True.
But, seeing that the things which participate in the one as a part, and in the one as a whole, are more than one, must not those very things which participate in the one be infinite in number?
But, since the things that are part of the one and the one as a whole are more than one, shouldn't those things that participate in the one be infinite in number?
How so?
How come?
Let us look at the matter thus:—Is it not a fact that in partaking of the one they are not one, and do not partake of the one at the very time when they are partaking of it?
Let’s consider this: Isn’t it true that when they participate in the one, they are not united, and they aren’t actually engaging with the one at the same moment they are supposedly participating in it?
Clearly.
Clearly.
They do so then as multitudes in which the one is not present?
They do this as a crowd where the individual is absent?
Very true.
Very true.
And if we were to abstract from them in idea the very smallest fraction, must not that least fraction, if it does not partake of the one, be a multitude and not one?
And if we were to take away the smallest part of them in our minds, mustn't that tiniest part, if it doesn't share in the one, be a lot of things instead of just one?
It must.
It has to.
And if we continue to look at the other side of their nature, regarded simply, and in itself, will not they, as far as we see them, be unlimited in number?
And if we keep looking at the other side of their nature, considered on its own, won't they, as far as we can see, be limitless in number?
Certainly.
Of course.
And yet, when each several part becomes a part, then the parts have a limit in relation to the whole and to each other, and the whole in relation to the parts.
And yet, when each individual part becomes a part, then the parts have a limit in relation to the whole and to each other, and the whole in relation to the parts.
Just so.
Exactly.
The result to the others than the one is that the union of themselves and the one appears to create a new element in them which gives to them limitation in relation to one another; whereas in their own nature they have no limit.
The result for the others, as compared to the one, is that their union with the one seems to create a new aspect within them that imposes limitations on their relationship with each other; while in their true nature, they have no limits.
That is clear.
That’s clear.
Then the others than the one, both as whole and parts, are infinite, and also partake of limit.
Then the others besides the one, both as a whole and in parts, are infinite, and also have limits.
Certainly.
Sure.
Then they are both like and unlike one another and themselves.
Then they are both similar to and different from each other and themselves.
How is that?
How's that?
Inasmuch as they are unlimited in their own nature, they are all affected in the same way.
Since they are limitless by nature, they all respond in the same way.
True.
True.
And inasmuch as they all partake of limit, they are all affected in the same way.
And since they all have limitations, they are all impacted in the same way.
Of course.
Sure.
But inasmuch as their state is both limited and unlimited, they are affected in opposite ways.
But since their state is both limited and unlimited, they are affected in different ways.
Yes.
Yes.
And opposites are the most unlike of things.
And opposites are the most different of things.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Considered, then, in regard to either one of their affections, they will be like themselves and one another; considered in reference to both of them together, most opposed and most unlike.
When looked at in terms of either of their feelings, they will be like themselves and each other; but when viewed together in relation to both of them, they are very different and most unlike.
That appears to be true.
That seems to be true.
Then the others are both like and unlike themselves and one another?
Then the others are both similar to and different from themselves and each other?
True.
True.
And they are the same and also different from one another, and in motion and at rest, and experience every sort of opposite affection, as may be proved without difficulty of them, since they have been shown to have experienced the affections aforesaid?
And they are alike and also different from each other, both in motion and at rest, and they experience all sorts of opposite feelings, as can easily be demonstrated, since it has been shown that they have experienced those feelings mentioned earlier?
True.
True.
1.bb. Suppose, now, that we leave the further discussion of these matters as evident, and consider again upon the hypothesis that the one is, whether opposite of all this is or is not equally true of the others.
1.bb. Let's assume that we set aside any further discussion on these issues as clear, and take another look at the assumption that the one is, whether the opposite of all this is or isn't equally true for the others.
By all means.
Sure thing.
Then let us begin again, and ask, If one is, what must be the affections of the others?
Then let's start over and ask, if one exists, what must the feelings of the others be?
Let us ask that question.
Let's ask that question.
Must not the one be distinct from the others, and the others from the one?
Mustn't the one be different from the others, and the others from the one?
Why so?
Why is that?
Why, because there is nothing else beside them which is distinct from both of them; for the expression 'one and the others' includes all things.
Why? Because there’s nothing else apart from them that is different from both of them; the phrase 'one and the others' includes everything.
Yes, all things.
Yep, everything.
Then we cannot suppose that there is anything different from them in which both the one and the others might exist?
Then we can't assume that there's anything different from them where both could exist?
There is nothing.
There's nothing.
Then the one and the others are never in the same?
Then is one and the others never together?
True.
True.
Then they are separated from each other?
Then they are separated from one another?
Yes.
Yes.
And we surely cannot say that what is truly one has parts?
And we definitely can't say that something that is truly one has parts?
Impossible.
Not happening.
Then the one will not be in the others as a whole, nor as part, if it be separated from the others, and has no parts?
Then the one will not be in the others as a whole, nor as a part, if it is separated from the others and has no parts?
Impossible.
Not possible.
Then there is no way in which the others can partake of the one, if they do not partake either in whole or in part?
Then there's no way for the others to share in the one if they don't share in it either completely or partially?
It would seem not.
Doesn't seem like it.
Then there is no way in which the others are one, or have in themselves any unity?
Then there’s no way the others are one or have any unity within themselves?
There is not.
There isn't.
Nor are the others many; for if they were many, each part of them would be a part of the whole; but now the others, not partaking in any way of the one, are neither one nor many, nor whole, nor part.
Nor are the others numerous; for if they were, each part would be a part of the whole. But now the others, having no connection to the one, are neither one nor many, nor whole, nor part.
True.
True.
Then the others neither are nor contain two or three, if entirely deprived of the one?
Then the others are neither two nor three if completely lacking the one?
True.
True.
Then the others are neither like nor unlike the one, nor is likeness and unlikeness in them; for if they were like and unlike, or had in them likeness and unlikeness, they would have two natures in them opposite to one another.
Then the others are neither similar nor dissimilar to the one, and neither similarity nor dissimilarity exists in them; because if they were similar and dissimilar, or contained similarity and dissimilarity, they would have two opposing natures within them.
That is clear.
That's clear.
But for that which partakes of nothing to partake of two things was held by us to be impossible?
But how can something that is nothing partake in two things? We believed that was impossible.
Impossible.
Not possible.
Then the others are neither like nor unlike nor both, for if they were like or unlike they would partake of one of those two natures, which would be one thing, and if they were both they would partake of opposites which would be two things, and this has been shown to be impossible.
Then the others are neither similar nor different, nor both, because if they were similar or different, they would have one of those two qualities, which would be one thing. And if they were both, they would have opposing qualities, which would be two things, and this has been proven to be impossible.
True.
True.
Therefore they are neither the same, nor other, nor in motion, nor at rest, nor in a state of becoming, nor of being destroyed, nor greater, nor less, nor equal, nor have they experienced anything else of the sort; for, if they are capable of experiencing any such affection, they will participate in one and two and three, and odd and even, and in these, as has been proved, they do not participate, seeing that they are altogether and in every way devoid of the one.
Therefore, they are neither the same, nor different, nor in motion, nor at rest, nor in a state of becoming, nor being destroyed, nor greater, nor less, nor equal, nor have they gone through anything like that; because, if they were capable of experiencing any of these feelings, they would be part of one, two, three, odd, and even, and as has been proven, they do not take part in these, since they are completely and entirely lacking in the one.
Very true.
So true.
Therefore if one is, the one is all things, and also nothing, both in relation to itself and to other things.
Therefore, if one exists, that one is everything and also nothing, both in relation to itself and to other things.
Certainly.
Sure.
2.a. Well, and ought we not to consider next what will be the consequence if the one is not?
2.a. Well, should we not think about what the outcome will be if the one is not?
Yes; we ought.
Yeah, we should.
What is the meaning of the hypothesis—If the one is not; is there any difference between this and the hypothesis—If the not one is not?
What does the hypothesis mean—If one doesn't exist; is there any difference between this and the hypothesis—If the non-one doesn’t exist?
There is a difference, certainly.
There's definitely a difference.
Is there a difference only, or rather are not the two expressions—if the one is not, and if the not one is not, entirely opposed?
Is there just a difference, or are the two expressions—if one isn't, and if the one that isn't doesn't exist, completely opposite?
They are entirely opposed.
They completely disagree.
And suppose a person to say:—If greatness is not, if smallness is not, or anything of that sort, does he not mean, whenever he uses such an expression, that 'what is not' is other than other things?
And suppose someone says:—If greatness isn't real, if smallness isn't real, or anything like that, doesn't that mean that whenever they use such a phrase, 'what isn't' is different from other things?
To be sure.
For sure.
And so when he says 'If one is not' he clearly means, that what 'is not' is other than all others; we know what he means—do we not?
And so when he says 'If one is not' he clearly means that what 'is not' is different from everything else; we understand what he means—don't we?
Yes, we do.
Yep, we do.
When he says 'one,' he says something which is known; and secondly something which is other than all other things; it makes no difference whether he predicate of one being or not-being, for that which is said 'not to be' is known to be something all the same, and is distinguished from other things.
When he says 'one,' he's referring to something that is understood, and additionally, something that is different from everything else; it doesn't matter whether he attributes existence or non-existence to one, because what is said to 'not be' is still recognized as something and is set apart from other things.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then I will begin again, and ask: If one is not, what are the consequences? In the first place, as would appear, there is a knowledge of it, or the very meaning of the words, 'if one is not,' would not be known.
Then I will start over and ask: If someone doesn't exist, what are the consequences? First of all, it seems that there is an understanding of this, or else the very meaning of the words 'if one doesn't exist' wouldn't be known.
True.
True.
Secondly, the others differ from it, or it could not be described as different from the others?
Secondly, the others are different from it, or else it wouldn't be described as different from the others?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Difference, then, belongs to it as well as knowledge; for in speaking of the one as different from the others, we do not speak of a difference in the others, but in the one.
Difference, then, is part of it just like knowledge is; because when we talk about one being different from the others, we're not talking about a difference in the others, but in that one.
Clearly so.
Definitely.
Moreover, the one that is not is something and partakes of relation to 'that,' and 'this,' and 'these,' and the like, and is an attribute of 'this'; for the one, or the others than the one, could not have been spoken of, nor could any attribute or relative of the one that is not have been or been spoken of, nor could it have been said to be anything, if it did not partake of 'some,' or of the other relations just now mentioned.
Moreover, what is not is still something and relates to 'that,' 'this,' 'these,' and so on, and is an attribute of 'this'; for the one, or the others besides the one, couldn't have been discussed, nor could any attribute or relation of what is not have existed or been talked about, nor could it have been said to be anything if it didn't share in 'some' or other relations just mentioned.
True.
True.
Being, then, cannot be ascribed to the one, since it is not; but the one that is not may or rather must participate in many things, if it and nothing else is not; if, however, neither the one nor the one that is not is supposed not to be, and we are speaking of something of a different nature, we can predicate nothing of it. But supposing that the one that is not and nothing else is not, then it must participate in the predicate 'that,' and in many others.
Being cannot be assigned to the one, since it doesn't exist; however, the one that doesn't exist may—or rather must—be involved in many things if it and nothing else doesn't exist. If neither the one nor the one that doesn't exist is thought to not exist, and we're talking about something different, we can't say anything about it. But if we assume that the one that doesn't exist and nothing else doesn't exist, then it must be included in the predicate 'that,' as well as in many others.
Certainly.
Sure.
And it will have unlikeness in relation to the others, for the others being different from the one will be of a different kind.
And it will be different from the others because the others, being distinct from this one, will belong to a different category.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And are not things of a different kind also other in kind?
And aren't different kinds of things also different in nature?
Of course.
Absolutely.
And are not things other in kind unlike?
And aren't things of a different kind unlike each other?
They are unlike.
They are different.
And if they are unlike the one, that which they are unlike will clearly be unlike them?
And if they are different from one another, then what they're different from will clearly be different from them too?
Clearly so.
Definitely.
Then the one will have unlikeness in respect of which the others are unlike it?
Then will the one have differences that make the others unlike it?
That would seem to be true.
That sounds accurate.
And if unlikeness to other things is attributed to it, it must have likeness to itself.
And if it's considered different from other things, it has to be similar to itself.
How so?
How come?
If the one have unlikeness to one, something else must be meant; nor will the hypothesis relate to one; but it will relate to something other than one?
If one is different from another, something else must be implied; the hypothesis won't apply to one; instead, it will refer to something other than one?
Quite so.
Exactly.
But that cannot be.
But that can't be.
No.
No.
Then the one must have likeness to itself?
Then must the one resemble itself?
It must.
It’s a must.
Again, it is not equal to the others; for if it were equal, then it would at once be and be like them in virtue of the equality; but if one has no being, then it can neither be nor be like?
Again, it is not the same as the others; for if it were the same, then it would simultaneously exist and be like them because of that sameness; but if something has no existence, then it cannot exist or be like anything else.
It cannot.
It can't.
But since it is not equal to the others, neither can the others be equal to it?
But since it's not the same as the others, how can the others be the same as it?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
And things that are not equal are unequal?
And things that aren’t equal are unequal?
True.
True.
And they are unequal to an unequal?
And are they not suited for something unequal?
Of course.
Sure.
Then the one partakes of inequality, and in respect of this the others are unequal to it?
Then one experiences inequality, and because of this, the others are unequal to it?
Very true.
So true.
And inequality implies greatness and smallness?
And does inequality suggest both greatness and smallness?
Yes.
Yeah.
Then the one, if of such a nature, has greatness and smallness?
Then does the one, if it's that kind, have greatness and smallness?
That appears to be true.
That seems to be true.
And greatness and smallness always stand apart?
And do greatness and smallness always stand apart?
True.
True.
Then there is always something between them?
Then there's always something between them?
There is.
There is.
And can you think of anything else which is between them other than equality?
And can you think of anything else that exists between them besides equality?
No, it is equality which lies between them.
No, it's equality that exists between them.
Then that which has greatness and smallness also has equality, which lies between them?
Then that which is great and that which is small also has equality, which exists between them?
That is clear.
That's clear.
Then the one, which is not, partakes, as would appear, of greatness and smallness and equality?
Then the one that doesn’t exist seems to share in greatness, smallness, and equality, right?
Clearly.
Clearly.
Further, it must surely in a sort partake of being?
Further, it must surely have some sort of existence?
How so?
Why is that?
It must be so, for if not, then we should not speak the truth in saying that the one is not. But if we speak the truth, clearly we must say what is. Am I not right?
It has to be true, because if it isn't, then we can't honestly say that one thing doesn't exist. But if we're being truthful, we absolutely have to state what is real. Am I wrong?
Yes.
Yes.
And since we affirm that we speak truly, we must also affirm that we say what is?
And since we claim that we're speaking honestly, we also have to say what is?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then, as would appear, the one, when it is not, is; for if it were not to be when it is not, but (Or, 'to remit something of existence in relation to not-being.') were to relinquish something of being, so as to become not-being, it would at once be.
Then, it seems, what exists when it doesn't exist; because if it didn't exist at that time, but instead gave up some of its existence to become non-existent, it would instantly exist.
Quite true.
Very true.
Then the one which is not, if it is to maintain itself, must have the being of not-being as the bond of not-being, just as being must have as a bond the not-being of not-being in order to perfect its own being; for the truest assertion of the being of being and of the not-being of not-being is when being partakes of the being of being, and not of the being of not-being—that is, the perfection of being; and when not-being does not partake of the not-being of not-being but of the being of not-being—that is the perfection of not-being.
Then the thing that doesn’t exist, if it’s going to persist, must have the essence of non-existence as a connection to non-existence, just as existence needs the non-existence of non-existence to complete its own essence; because the most accurate assertion of the existence of existence and the non-existence of non-existence occurs when existence participates in the essence of existence, not in the essence of non-existence—that is, the fulfillment of existence; and when non-existence doesn’t participate in the non-existence of non-existence but in the essence of non-existence—that is the fulfillment of non-existence.
Most true.
Most definitely.
Since then what is partakes of not-being, and what is not of being, must not the one also partake of being in order not to be?
Since then, what is part of not-being and what is not part of being, mustn't the one also have some part of being in order not to exist?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then the one, if it is not, clearly has being?
Then the one, if it doesn't exist, clearly has being?
Clearly.
Clearly.
And has not-being also, if it is not?
And does not-being also exist, if it doesn’t?
Of course.
Absolutely.
But can anything which is in a certain state not be in that state without changing?
But can anything that is in a certain state not be in that state without changing?
Impossible.
No way.
Then everything which is and is not in a certain state, implies change?
Then everything that is and isn’t in a certain state implies change?
Certainly.
Sure.
And change is motion—we may say that?
And change is movement—we can say that?
Yes, motion.
Yeah, movement.
And the one has been proved both to be and not to be?
And the one has been shown to both exist and not exist?
Yes.
Yes.
And therefore is and is not in the same state?
And so, is it or isn't it in the same state?
Yes.
Yes.
Thus the one that is not has been shown to have motion also, because it changes from being to not-being?
Thus, the one that isn’t has also been shown to have motion because it changes from being to not-being?
That appears to be true.
That seems to be true.
But surely if it is nowhere among what is, as is the fact, since it is not, it cannot change from one place to another?
But if it's not anywhere in existence, which is true since it doesn't exist, how can it move from one place to another?
Impossible.
Not possible.
Then it cannot move by changing place?
Then it can't move by shifting its position?
No.
No.
Nor can it turn on the same spot, for it nowhere touches the same, for the same is, and that which is not cannot be reckoned among things that are?
Nor can it turn in the same place, because it never touches the same spot; what is the same exists, and what is not cannot be counted among things that exist?
It cannot.
It can't.
Then the one, if it is not, cannot turn in that in which it is not?
Then the one that isn’t can’t change into what it isn’t?
No.
No.
Neither can the one, whether it is or is not, be altered into other than itself, for if it altered and became different from itself, then we could not be still speaking of the one, but of something else?
Neither can the one, whether it is or isn't, be changed into anything other than itself, because if it changed and became different from itself, then we wouldn't still be talking about the one, but about something else.
True.
True.
But if the one neither suffers alteration, nor turns round in the same place, nor changes place, can it still be capable of motion?
But if something doesn't change, doesn't turn around in the same spot, and doesn't move to a different place, can it still be capable of motion?
Impossible.
Not happening.
Now that which is unmoved must surely be at rest, and that which is at rest must stand still?
Now, what is unmovable must definitely be still, and what is still must remain in place?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
Then the one that is not, stands still, and is also in motion?
Then the one that isn't stands still, but is also moving?
That seems to be true.
That sounds accurate.
But if it be in motion it must necessarily undergo alteration, for anything which is moved, in so far as it is moved, is no longer in the same state, but in another?
But if it is in motion, it has to change, because anything that is moving, as long as it is moving, is no longer in the same state, but in a different one?
Yes.
Yes.
Then the one, being moved, is altered?
Then the one who is affected is changed?
Yes.
Yes.
And, further, if not moved in any way, it will not be altered in any way?
And if it isn't influenced at all, it won't change at all?
No.
No.
Then, in so far as the one that is not is moved, it is altered, but in so far as it is not moved, it is not altered?
Then, as far as the one that isn't moving is changed, it is altered, but as far as it isn't moved, it is not changed?
Right.
Okay.
Then the one that is not is altered and is not altered?
Then the one that isn't is changed and isn't changed?
That is clear.
That's clear.
And must not that which is altered become other than it previously was, and lose its former state and be destroyed; but that which is not altered can neither come into being nor be destroyed?
And can’t something that has changed become different from what it used to be, losing its previous state and being destroyed? But what hasn’t changed can’t come into existence or be destroyed?
Very true.
So true.
And the one that is not, being altered, becomes and is destroyed; and not being altered, neither becomes nor is destroyed; and so the one that is not becomes and is destroyed, and neither becomes nor is destroyed?
And the one that isn't, when changed, comes into being and is destroyed; and not being changed, it neither comes into being nor is destroyed; so the one that isn't comes into being and is destroyed, and it neither comes into being nor is destroyed?
True.
True.
2.b. And now, let us go back once more to the beginning, and see whether these or some other consequences will follow.
2.b. Now, let's go back to the beginning one more time and see if these consequences or maybe some others will follow.
Let us do as you say.
Let’s follow your suggestion.
If one is not, we ask what will happen in respect of one? That is the question.
If someone isn't, we wonder what will happen to that person. That's the question.
Yes.
Yes.
Do not the words 'is not' signify absence of being in that to which we apply them?
Do the words 'is not' not indicate the lack of existence in what we refer to?
Just so.
Exactly.
And when we say that a thing is not, do we mean that it is not in one way but is in another? or do we mean, absolutely, that what is not has in no sort or way or kind participation of being?
And when we say something doesn’t exist, do we mean it doesn’t exist in one way but does in another? Or do we mean, flat out, that what doesn’t exist has no part or aspect of existence at all?
Quite absolutely.
Definitely.
Then, that which is not cannot be, or in any way participate in being?
Then, what doesn’t exist can’t be, or in any way take part in existence?
It cannot.
It can't.
And did we not mean by becoming, and being destroyed, the assumption of being and the loss of being?
And didn't we intend by becoming and being destroyed, the taking on of existence and the loss of existence?
Nothing else.
That's all.
And can that which has no participation in being, either assume or lose being?
And can something that doesn't have any share in existence take on or lose existence?
Impossible.
No way.
The one then, since it in no way is, cannot have or lose or assume being in any way?
The one cannot exist, so it can't have or lose or take on existence in any way.
True.
True.
Then the one that is not, since it in no way partakes of being, neither perishes nor becomes?
Then the one that doesn’t exist, since it has no part in being, neither dies nor comes into being?
No.
No.
Then it is not altered at all; for if it were it would become and be destroyed?
Then it isn’t changed at all; because if it were, it would come to be and be destroyed?
True.
True.
But if it be not altered it cannot be moved?
But if it isn't changed, it can't be moved?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
Nor can we say that it stands, if it is nowhere; for that which stands must always be in one and the same spot?
Nor can we say that it stands if it exists nowhere; because whatever stands must always be in the same place.
Of course.
Absolutely.
Then we must say that the one which is not never stands still and never moves?
Then we have to say that the one that doesn't exist never stays still and never moves?
Neither.
Neither.
Nor is there any existing thing which can be attributed to it; for if there had been, it would partake of being?
Nor is there anything that can be linked to it; because if there were, it would have some form of existence?
That is clear.
That's clear.
And therefore neither smallness, nor greatness, nor equality, can be attributed to it?
And so, neither smallness, nor greatness, nor equality can be attributed to it?
No.
No.
Nor yet likeness nor difference, either in relation to itself or to others?
Nor is there similarity or difference, either in relation to itself or to others?
Clearly not.
Definitely not.
Well, and if nothing should be attributed to it, can other things be attributed to it?
Well, and if nothing can be attributed to it, can other things be attributed to it?
Certainly not.
Definitely not.
And therefore other things can neither be like or unlike, the same, or different in relation to it?
And so, can other things not be similar or dissimilar, the same or different in relation to it?
They cannot.
They can't.
Nor can what is not, be anything, or be this thing, or be related to or the attribute of this or that or other, or be past, present, or future. Nor can knowledge, or opinion, or perception, or expression, or name, or any other thing that is, have any concern with it?
Nor can what doesn’t exist be anything, or be this thing, or be related to or be an attribute of this or that or something else, or be past, present, or future. Nor can knowledge, opinion, perception, expression, name, or anything else that exists have any connection to it?
No.
No.
Then the one that is not has no condition of any kind?
Then the one who doesn't exist has no qualities whatsoever?
Such appears to be the conclusion.
That seems to be the conclusion.
2.aa. Yet once more; if one is not, what becomes of the others? Let us determine that.
2.aa. Yet again; if one isn't, what happens to the others? Let's figure that out.
Yes; let us determine that.
Sure, let's figure that out.
The others must surely be; for if they, like the one, were not, we could not be now speaking of them.
The others must definitely exist; because if they weren't like the one, we wouldn't be talking about them now.
True.
True.
But to speak of the others implies difference—the terms 'other' and 'different' are synonymous?
But talking about others suggests a difference—the terms 'other' and 'different' mean the same thing?
True.
True.
Other means other than other, and different, different from the different?
Other means besides other, and different, different from the different?
Yes.
Yes.
Then, if there are to be others, there is something than which they will be other?
Then, if there are going to be others, is there something that they will be different from?
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And what can that be?—for if the one is not, they will not be other than the one.
And what could that be?—because if one isn't there, they won't be anything other than the one.
They will not.
They won't.
Then they will be other than each other; for the only remaining alternative is that they are other than nothing.
Then they will be different from each other; because the only other option is that they are different from nothing.
True.
True.
And they are each other than one another, as being plural and not singular; for if one is not, they cannot be singular, but every particle of them is infinite in number; and even if a person takes that which appears to be the smallest fraction, this, which seemed one, in a moment evanesces into many, as in a dream, and from being the smallest becomes very great, in comparison with the fractions into which it is split up?
And they are each different from one another, existing as more than one; because if one isn't, they can't be singular. Each of them is infinite in number, and even when someone takes what seems to be the smallest part, that which seemed like one quickly disappears into many, like in a dream. What starts as the smallest can become very large, compared to the many parts it's broken into.
Very true.
So true.
And in such particles the others will be other than one another, if others are, and the one is not?
And in such particles, the others will be different from one another, if others exist, and the one does not?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And will there not be many particles, each appearing to be one, but not being one, if one is not?
And won't there be many particles, each seeming to be one, but not actually one, if one doesn't exist?
True.
True.
And it would seem that number can be predicated of them if each of them appears to be one, though it is really many?
And it seems like you can say that there’s a number for them if each one appears to be one, even though it’s actually many?
It can.
It can.
And there will seem to be odd and even among them, which will also have no reality, if one is not?
And there will appear to be odd and even among them, which will also have no reality if one isn’t?
Yes.
Yes.
And there will appear to be a least among them; and even this will seem large and manifold in comparison with the many small fractions which are contained in it?
And there will seem to be a least among them, and even this will appear large and numerous compared to the many small parts that are included in it?
Certainly.
Sure.
And each particle will be imagined to be equal to the many and little; for it could not have appeared to pass from the greater to the less without having appeared to arrive at the middle; and thus would arise the appearance of equality.
And each particle is thought to be equal to both the many and the small; because it couldn't have seemed to move from the larger to the smaller without also seeming to reach the middle; and this creates the appearance of equality.
Yes.
Yes.
And having neither beginning, middle, nor end, each separate particle yet appears to have a limit in relation to itself and other.
And since it has no beginning, middle, or end, each individual particle still seems to have a boundary in relation to itself and to others.
How so?
How come?
Because, when a person conceives of any one of these as such, prior to the beginning another beginning appears, and there is another end, remaining after the end, and in the middle truer middles within but smaller, because no unity can be conceived of any of them, since the one is not.
Because when someone thinks of any one of these in that way, before starting again, another beginning shows up, and there’s another end that stays after the end, with more accurate middles inside but smaller ones, because none of them can be imagined as a whole since the one does not exist.
Very true.
So true.
And so all being, whatever we think of, must be broken up into fractions, for a particle will have to be conceived of without unity?
And so everything we think about must be broken down into parts, because a particle has to be imagined without unity?
Certainly.
Of course.
And such being when seen indistinctly and at a distance, appears to be one; but when seen near and with keen intellect, every single thing appears to be infinite, since it is deprived of the one, which is not?
And when seen from a distance and not clearly, it looks like one; but when looked at up close and with a sharp mind, everything seems infinite, as it lacks that singularity, which isn’t there?
Nothing more certain.
Nothing more guaranteed.
Then each of the others must appear to be infinite and finite, and one and many, if others than the one exist and not the one.
Then each of the others must seem to be both infinite and finite, as well as one and many, if there are others besides the one, and not just the one itself.
They must.
They have to.
Then will they not appear to be like and unlike?
Then will they not seem both similar and different?
In what way?
How so?
Just as in a picture things appear to be all one to a person standing at a distance, and to be in the same state and alike?
Just like in a picture, everything seems unified to someone standing far away, appearing to be in the same condition and similar.
True.
True.
But when you approach them, they appear to be many and different; and because of the appearance of the difference, different in kind from, and unlike, themselves?
But when you get closer to them, they seem to be numerous and distinct; and because of the way they look different, they are different in nature from, and unlike, themselves?
True.
True.
And so must the particles appear to be like and unlike themselves and each other.
And so the particles must seem to be both like and unlike themselves and each other.
Certainly.
Sure thing.
And must they not be the same and yet different from one another, and in contact with themselves, although they are separated, and having every sort of motion, and every sort of rest, and becoming and being destroyed, and in neither state, and the like, all which things may be easily enumerated, if the one is not and the many are?
And shouldn't they be both the same and different from each other, in touch with themselves even while being apart, experiencing all kinds of movement and stillness, coming into being and being destroyed, existing in both states and neither at the same time, and so on? All of this can be easily listed if the one is not and the many are?
Most true.
Absolutely true.
2.bb. Once more, let us go back to the beginning, and ask if the one is not, and the others of the one are, what will follow.
2.bb. Once again, let’s return to the beginning and ask if the one does not exist, and the others of the one do, what will come next.
Let us ask that question.
Let's ask that question.
In the first place, the others will not be one?
In the first place, will the others not be one?
Impossible.
Not happening.
Nor will they be many; for if they were many one would be contained in them. But if no one of them is one, all of them are nought, and therefore they will not be many.
Nor will there be many; for if there were many, one would be included in them. But if none of them is one, all of them are nothing, and so they won’t be many.
True.
True.
If there be no one in the others, the others are neither many nor one.
If there’s no one in the others, the others are neither many nor one.
They are not.
They aren't.
Nor do they appear either as one or many.
Nor do they seem to be either one or many.
Why not?
Why not?
Because the others have no sort or manner or way of communion with any sort of not-being, nor can anything which is not, be connected with any of the others; for that which is not has no parts.
Because the others have no way to communicate with anything that doesn't exist, and nothing that isn't can be connected with any of the others; because that which doesn't exist has no parts.
True.
True.
Nor is there an opinion or any appearance of not-being in connexion with the others, nor is not-being ever in any way attributed to the others.
Nor is there an opinion or any indication of non-existence related to the others, nor is non-existence ever linked to the others in any way.
No.
No.
Then if one is not, there is no conception of any of the others either as one or many; for you cannot conceive the many without the one.
Then, if there is no one, you can't think of any of the others as either one or many; because you can't understand the many without the one.
You cannot.
You can't.
Then if one is not, the others neither are, nor can be conceived to be either one or many?
Then if one isn't, the others aren't either, and it's impossible to think of them as either one or many?
It would seem not.
It doesn't seem like it.
Nor as like or unlike?
Nor similar nor different?
No.
No.
Nor as the same or different, nor in contact or separation, nor in any of those states which we enumerated as appearing to be;—the others neither are nor appear to be any of these, if one is not?
Nor as the same or different, nor in contact or separation, nor in any of those states we listed as seeming to be;—the others are neither any of these nor do they seem to be any of these, if one is not?
True.
True.
Then may we not sum up the argument in a word and say truly: If one is not, then nothing is?
Then can we not sum up the argument with one word and say it's true: If someone doesn't exist, then nothing exists?
Certainly.
Sure.
Let thus much be said; and further let us affirm what seems to be the truth, that, whether one is or is not, one and the others in relation to themselves and one another, all of them, in every way, are and are not, and appear to be and appear not to be.
Let’s say this much; and let’s also affirm what seems to be the truth: that, whether someone is or isn't, every person in relation to themselves and each other, all of them, in every way, both exist and don’t exist, and seem to be and don’t seem to be.
Most true.
Most definitely.
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