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STATESMAN
By Plato
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
Contents
INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
In the Phaedrus, the Republic, the Philebus, the Parmenides, and the Sophist, we may observe the tendency of Plato to combine two or more subjects or different aspects of the same subject in a single dialogue. In the Sophist and Statesman especially we note that the discussion is partly regarded as an illustration of method, and that analogies are brought from afar which throw light on the main subject. And in his later writings generally we further remark a decline of style, and of dramatic power; the characters excite little or no interest, and the digressions are apt to overlay the main thesis; there is not the 'callida junctura' of an artistic whole. Both the serious discussions and the jests are sometimes out of place. The invincible Socrates is withdrawn from view; and new foes begin to appear under old names. Plato is now chiefly concerned, not with the original Sophist, but with the sophistry of the schools of philosophy, which are making reasoning impossible; and is driven by them out of the regions of transcendental speculation back into the path of common sense. A logical or psychological phase takes the place of the doctrine of Ideas in his mind. He is constantly dwelling on the importance of regular classification, and of not putting words in the place of things. He has banished the poets, and is beginning to use a technical language. He is bitter and satirical, and seems to be sadly conscious of the realities of human life. Yet the ideal glory of the Platonic philosophy is not extinguished. He is still looking for a city in which kings are either philosophers or gods (compare Laws).
In the Phaedrus, the Republic, the Philebus, the Parmenides, and the Sophist, we can see Plato's tendency to combine two or more topics or different angles of the same topic in a single dialogue. In the Sophist and Statesman, in particular, we notice that the discussion is partly treated as an example of methodology, with analogies drawn from distant sources that illuminate the main topic. In his later works, we also observe a decline in style and dramatic impact; the characters generate little to no interest, and the digressions tend to overshadow the main argument; there's a lack of a cohesive artistic whole. Both serious discussions and jokes sometimes feel out of place. The unstoppable Socrates fades from view, and new opponents start to emerge under familiar names. Plato is now primarily focused, not on the original Sophist, but on the sophistry of philosophical schools that are making reasoning difficult; he's pushed out of the realm of deep speculation back into the realm of common sense. A logical or psychological aspect replaces his earlier doctrine of Ideas. He frequently emphasizes the importance of proper classification and not substituting words for actual things. He has excluded the poets and is starting to adopt a more technical language. He’s harsh and satirical, showing a deep awareness of the harsh realities of human existence. Yet, the ideal vision of Platonic philosophy remains alive. He continues to seek a city where rulers are either philosophers or gods (compare Laws).
The Statesman has lost the grace and beauty of the earlier dialogues. The mind of the writer seems to be so overpowered in the effort of thought as to impair his style; at least his gift of expression does not keep up with the increasing difficulty of his theme. The idea of the king or statesman and the illustration of method are connected, not like the love and rhetoric of the Phaedrus, by 'little invisible pegs,' but in a confused and inartistic manner, which fails to produce any impression of a whole on the mind of the reader. Plato apologizes for his tediousness, and acknowledges that the improvement of his audience has been his only aim in some of his digressions. His own image may be used as a motto of his style: like an inexpert statuary he has made the figure or outline too large, and is unable to give the proper colours or proportions to his work. He makes mistakes only to correct them—this seems to be his way of drawing attention to common dialectical errors. The Eleatic stranger, here, as in the Sophist, has no appropriate character, and appears only as the expositor of a political ideal, in the delineation of which he is frequently interrupted by purely logical illustrations. The younger Socrates resembles his namesake in nothing but a name. The dramatic character is so completely forgotten, that a special reference is twice made to discussions in the Sophist; and this, perhaps, is the strongest ground which can be urged for doubting the genuineness of the work. But, when we remember that a similar allusion is made in the Laws to the Republic, we see that the entire disregard of dramatic propriety is not always a sufficient reason for doubting the genuineness of a Platonic writing.
The Statesman has lost the elegance and charm of the earlier dialogues. The writer seems so overwhelmed by his thoughts that it affects his style; at least his ability to express himself doesn’t match the increasing complexity of his topic. The concept of the king or statesman and the method explained are connected, not like the love and rhetoric in the Phaedrus, by 'little invisible pegs,' but rather in a disorganized and unartistic way, which fails to create a cohesive impression in the reader's mind. Plato apologizes for being tedious and admits that improving his audience has been his sole aim in some of his digressions. His own example can serve as a motto for his style: like an inexperienced sculptor, he has made the figure or outline too large and struggles to give the right colors or proportions to his work. He makes mistakes only to correct them—this seems to be his way of highlighting common dialectical errors. Here, as in the Sophist, the Eleatic stranger lacks a fitting character and appears only as the explainer of a political ideal, often interrupted by purely logical examples. The younger Socrates resembles his namesake in name only. The dramatic character is so completely overlooked that there are two specific references to discussions in the Sophist; this might be the strongest argument for doubting the authenticity of the work. However, when we remember that a similar reference is made in the Laws to the Republic, we see that the total disregard for dramatic propriety is not always a valid reason to question the authenticity of a Platonic writing.
The search after the Statesman, which is carried on, like that for the Sophist, by the method of dichotomy, gives an opportunity for many humorous and satirical remarks. Several of the jests are mannered and laboured: for example, the turn of words with which the dialogue opens; or the clumsy joke about man being an animal, who has a power of two-feet—both which are suggested by the presence of Theodorus, the geometrician. There is political as well as logical insight in refusing to admit the division of mankind into Hellenes and Barbarians: 'if a crane could speak, he would in like manner oppose men and all other animals to cranes.' The pride of the Hellene is further humbled, by being compared to a Phrygian or Lydian. Plato glories in this impartiality of the dialectical method, which places birds in juxtaposition with men, and the king side by side with the bird-catcher; king or vermin-destroyer are objects of equal interest to science (compare Parmen.). There are other passages which show that the irony of Socrates was a lesson which Plato was not slow in learning—as, for example, the passing remark, that 'the kings and statesmen of our day are in their breeding and education very like their subjects;' or the anticipation that the rivals of the king will be found in the class of servants; or the imposing attitude of the priests, who are the established interpreters of the will of heaven, authorized by law. Nothing is more bitter in all his writings than his comparison of the contemporary politicians to lions, centaurs, satyrs, and other animals of a feebler sort, who are ever changing their forms and natures. But, as in the later dialogues generally, the play of humour and the charm of poetry have departed, never to return.
The search for the Statesman, conducted similarly to the quest for the Sophist using the method of dichotomy, allows for many humorous and satirical comments. Some of the jokes feel forced and contrived; for instance, the wordplay that starts the dialogue, or the awkward joke about humans being two-footed animals—both inspired by the presence of Theodorus, the geometrician. There’s both political and logical insight in rejecting the division of humanity into Greeks and Barbarians: "if a crane could talk, it would similarly categorize humans and all other animals as opposed to cranes." The pride of the Greek is further diminished when compared to a Phrygian or Lydian. Plato takes pride in this impartiality of the dialectical method, which puts birds next to humans, and kings alongside bird-catchers; whether king or pest controller are equally interesting subjects for study (compare Parmen.). Other parts show that Plato quickly learned from Socrates’ irony—like the offhand comment that "today's kings and statesmen are very much like their subjects in their upbringing and education;" or the idea that the king's rivals may come from the servant class; or the authoritative stance of priests, who are the official interpreters of divine will, sanctioned by law. Nothing in his writings is more biting than his comparison of contemporary politicians to lions, centaurs, satyrs, and other weaker animals that constantly change their forms and natures. However, as with most of the later dialogues, the playful humor and poetic charm have faded away, never to return.
Still the Politicus contains a higher and more ideal conception of politics than any other of Plato's writings. The city of which there is a pattern in heaven (Republic), is here described as a Paradisiacal state of human society. In the truest sense of all, the ruler is not man but God; and such a government existed in a former cycle of human history, and may again exist when the gods resume their care of mankind. In a secondary sense, the true form of government is that which has scientific rulers, who are irresponsible to their subjects. Not power but knowledge is the characteristic of a king or royal person. And the rule of a man is better and higher than law, because he is more able to deal with the infinite complexity of human affairs. But mankind, in despair of finding a true ruler, are willing to acquiesce in any law or custom which will save them from the caprice of individuals. They are ready to accept any of the six forms of government which prevail in the world. To the Greek, nomos was a sacred word, but the political idealism of Plato soars into a region beyond; for the laws he would substitute the intelligent will of the legislator. Education is originally to implant in men's minds a sense of truth and justice, which is the divine bond of states, and the legislator is to contrive human bonds, by which dissimilar natures may be united in marriage and supply the deficiencies of one another. As in the Republic, the government of philosophers, the causes of the perversion of states, the regulation of marriages, are still the political problems with which Plato's mind is occupied. He treats them more slightly, partly because the dialogue is shorter, and also because the discussion of them is perpetually crossed by the other interest of dialectic, which has begun to absorb him.
The Politicus presents a more elevated and ideal view of politics than any of Plato's other works. The city that has a model in the heavens (as in the Republic) is portrayed here as a perfect state of human society. In the most accurate sense, the ruler is not a human but God; such a government existed in a previous era of human history and may exist again when the gods resume their oversight of humanity. In a secondary sense, the ideal form of government is one led by knowledgeable rulers who aren’t held accountable by their subjects. A king or royal figure is defined by knowledge rather than power. The rule of a person is considered better and superior to that of a law, as a person can manage the endless complexities of human affairs more effectively. However, people, out of despair in finding a true leader, are willing to go along with any law or custom that can protect them from the whims of individuals. They are open to accepting any of the six types of government that exist in the world. For the Greeks, nomos was a revered term, but Plato's political idealism reaches a higher plane; he proposes that the intelligent will of the legislator should replace laws. Education is fundamentally intended to instill a sense of truth and justice in people's minds, which serves as the divine bond of states, while the legislator is meant to create human connections that unite different natures through marriage and address each other's shortcomings. As in the Republic, the governance by philosophers, the reasons behind the corruption of states, and the regulation of marriages remain central political issues that engage Plato’s thoughts. He addresses them with less depth, partly due to the brevity of the dialogue and also because these discussions are continuously interrupted by his growing interest in dialectic.
The plan of the Politicus or Statesman may be briefly sketched as follows: (1) By a process of division and subdivision we discover the true herdsman or king of men. But before we can rightly distinguish him from his rivals, we must view him, (2) as he is presented to us in a famous ancient tale: the tale will also enable us to distinguish the divine from the human herdsman or shepherd: (3) and besides our fable, we must have an example; for our example we will select the art of weaving, which will have to be distinguished from the kindred arts; and then, following this pattern, we will separate the king from his subordinates or competitors. (4) But are we not exceeding all due limits; and is there not a measure of all arts and sciences, to which the art of discourse must conform? There is; but before we can apply this measure, we must know what is the aim of discourse: and our discourse only aims at the dialectical improvement of ourselves and others.—Having made our apology, we return once more to the king or statesman, and proceed to contrast him with pretenders in the same line with him, under their various forms of government. (5) His characteristic is, that he alone has science, which is superior to law and written enactments; these do but spring out of the necessities of mankind, when they are in despair of finding the true king. (6) The sciences which are most akin to the royal are the sciences of the general, the judge, the orator, which minister to him, but even these are subordinate to him. (7) Fixed principles are implanted by education, and the king or statesman completes the political web by marrying together dissimilar natures, the courageous and the temperate, the bold and the gentle, who are the warp and the woof of society.
The outline of the Politicus or Statesman can be briefly described as follows: (1) Through a process of division and subdivision, we identify the true herdsman or leader of people. But before we can properly differentiate him from his competitors, we must examine him, (2) as he is depicted in a well-known ancient story: this story will also help us distinguish the divine herdsman from the human one: (3) in addition to our fable, we need an example; for our example, we will choose the craft of weaving, which we must distinguish from related arts; and then, using this model, we will separate the king from his subordinates or rivals. (4) But are we not going too far, and is there not a standard for all arts and sciences that the art of discourse must follow? There is; however, before we can apply this standard, we must understand the purpose of discourse: our discourse aims solely at the dialectical improvement of ourselves and others. —Having made our justification, we return once again to the king or statesman, and we compare him with others in similar roles, under their various forms of government. (5) His distinguishing trait is that he alone possesses knowledge, which is greater than law and legal codes; laws arise only from the needs of humanity when they are desperate to find the true king. (6) The disciplines most related to royalty are those of the general, the judge, and the orator, which serve him, but even these are subordinate to him. (7) Fixed principles are instilled through education, and the king or statesman completes the political fabric by uniting different natures, the brave and the moderate, the daring and the gentle, who are the warp and the weft of society.
The outline may be filled up as follows:—
The outline can be completed as follows:—
SOCRATES: I have reason to thank you, Theodorus, for the acquaintance of Theaetetus and the Stranger.
SOCRATES: I want to thank you, Theodorus, for introducing me to Theaetetus and the Stranger.
THEODORUS: And you will have three times as much reason to thank me when they have delineated the Statesman and Philosopher, as well as the Sophist.
THEODORUS: And you'll have three times more reason to thank me when they have outlined the Statesman and Philosopher, along with the Sophist.
SOCRATES: Does the great geometrician apply the same measure to all three? Are they not divided by an interval which no geometrical ratio can express?
SOCRATES: Does the great mathematician use the same measurement for all three? Aren't they separated by a gap that no geometric ratio can express?
THEODORUS: By the god Ammon, Socrates, you are right; and I am glad to see that you have not forgotten your geometry. But before I retaliate on you, I must request the Stranger to finish the argument...
THEODORUS: By the god Ammon, Socrates, you're right; and I'm glad to see that you haven't forgotten your geometry. But before I get back at you, I need to ask the Stranger to finish the argument...
The Stranger suggests that Theaetetus shall be allowed to rest, and that Socrates the younger shall respond in his place; Theodorus agrees to the suggestion, and Socrates remarks that the name of the one and the face of the other give him a right to claim relationship with both of them. They propose to take the Statesman after the Sophist; his path they must determine, and part off all other ways, stamping upon them a single negative form (compare Soph.).
The Stranger suggests that Theaetetus should take a break, and that Socrates the younger can respond instead; Theodorus agrees to this idea, and Socrates comments that the names and appearances of both give him a reason to consider himself related to them. They plan to tackle the Statesman after the Sophist; they need to define his direction, excluding all other options and marking them with a single negative label (see Soph.).
The Stranger begins the enquiry by making a division of the arts and sciences into theoretical and practical—the one kind concerned with knowledge exclusively, and the other with action; arithmetic and the mathematical sciences are examples of the former, and carpentering and handicraft arts of the latter (compare Philebus). Under which of the two shall we place the Statesman? Or rather, shall we not first ask, whether the king, statesman, master, householder, practise one art or many? As the adviser of a physician may be said to have medical science and to be a physician, so the adviser of a king has royal science and is a king. And the master of a large household may be compared to the ruler of a small state. Hence we conclude that the science of the king, statesman, and householder is one and the same. And this science is akin to knowledge rather than to action. For a king rules with his mind, and not with his hands.
The Stranger starts the discussion by dividing the arts and sciences into two categories: theoretical and practical. Theoretical ones focus solely on knowledge, while practical ones are about action. Arithmetic and mathematics fall into the first group, whereas carpentry and crafts belong to the second (see Philebus). So, where do we categorize the Statesman? Or should we first ask whether a king, statesman, master, or householder practices one art or many? Just as an advisor to a doctor can be considered as having medical knowledge and being a physician, an advisor to a king possesses royal knowledge and is a king. Similarly, the head of a large household can be compared to the leader of a small state. Therefore, we conclude that the knowledge of the king, statesman, and householder is essentially the same. This knowledge is more related to understanding than to action because a king rules with his mind, not his hands.
But theoretical science may be a science either of judging, like arithmetic, or of ruling and superintending, like that of the architect or master-builder. And the science of the king is of the latter nature; but the power which he exercises is underived and uncontrolled,—a characteristic which distinguishes him from heralds, prophets, and other inferior officers. He is the wholesale dealer in command, and the herald, or other officer, retails his commands to others. Again, a ruler is concerned with the production of some object, and objects may be divided into living and lifeless, and rulers into the rulers of living and lifeless objects. And the king is not like the master-builder, concerned with lifeless matter, but has the task of managing living animals. And the tending of living animals may be either a tending of individuals, or a managing of herds. And the Statesman is not a groom, but a herdsman, and his art may be called either the art of managing a herd, or the art of collective management:—Which do you prefer? 'No matter.' Very good, Socrates, and if you are not too particular about words you will be all the richer some day in true wisdom. But how would you subdivide the herdsman's art? 'I should say, that there is one management of men, and another of beasts.' Very good, but you are in too great a hurry to get to man. All divisions which are rightly made should cut through the middle; if you attend to this rule, you will be more likely to arrive at classes. 'I do not understand the nature of my mistake.' Your division was like a division of the human race into Hellenes and Barbarians, or into Lydians or Phrygians and all other nations, instead of into male and female; or like a division of number into ten thousand and all other numbers, instead of into odd and even. And I should like you to observe further, that though I maintain a class to be a part, there is no similar necessity for a part to be a class. But to return to your division, you spoke of men and other animals as two classes—the second of which you comprehended under the general name of beasts. This is the sort of division which an intelligent crane would make: he would put cranes into a class by themselves for their special glory, and jumble together all others, including man, in the class of beasts. An error of this kind can only be avoided by a more regular subdivision. Just now we divided the whole class of animals into gregarious and non-gregarious, omitting the previous division into tame and wild. We forgot this in our hurry to arrive at man, and found by experience, as the proverb says, that 'the more haste the worse speed.'
But theoretical science can either be about judgment, like arithmetic, or about overseeing and managing, like an architect or master builder. The science of a king falls into the latter category; however, his power is original and unchecked, which sets him apart from heralds, prophets, and other lower officials. He is the main authority in command, while a herald or another official distributes his commands to others. Additionally, a ruler focuses on producing some outcome, which can be split into living and non-living things, and rulers can be categorized as those who rule over living beings and those who rule over inanimate objects. The king, unlike a master builder who deals with inanimate materials, is responsible for managing living creatures. Managing living creatures can involve individual care or herd oversight. A statesman isn’t a groom; he’s a shepherd, and his skill can be described as either the art of managing a herd or collective management—Which do you prefer? 'Doesn't matter.' Great, Socrates, and if you’re not too picky about terms, you’ll gain true wisdom one day. But how would you break down the shepherd’s skill? 'I’d say there's one for managing people and another for animals.' That's good, but you're rushing to get to people. Any proper divisions should slice through the center; if you keep this rule in mind, you’re more likely to reach distinct classes. 'I don’t see where I went wrong.' Your division was like splitting humanity into Greeks and Barbarians or into Lydians or Phrygians and other nations instead of male and female; or like dividing numbers into ten thousand and all others, instead of odd and even. I also want you to note that while I consider a class to be a part, a part doesn’t have to be a class in the same way. Returning to your division, you referred to men and other animals as two classes—the latter group you labeled as beasts. That kind of division is what a clever crane would do: it would put cranes in a class of their own for their unique qualities and lump all others, including humans, into the class of beasts. Such a mistake can only be avoided with more precise subcategories. Right now, we divided all animals into social and non-social without considering the prior division into tame and wild. We overlooked this in our eagerness to reach people and learned, as the saying goes, that 'the more haste, the worse speed.'
And now let us begin again at the art of managing herds. You have probably heard of the fish-preserves in the Nile and in the ponds of the Great King, and of the nurseries of geese and cranes in Thessaly. These suggest a new division into the rearing or management of land-herds and of water-herds:—I need not say with which the king is concerned. And land-herds may be divided into walking and flying; and every idiot knows that the political animal is a pedestrian. At this point we may take a longer or a shorter road, and as we are already near the end, I see no harm in taking the longer, which is the way of mesotomy, and accords with the principle which we were laying down. The tame, walking, herding animal, may be divided into two classes—the horned and the hornless, and the king is concerned with the hornless; and these again may be subdivided into animals having or not having cloven feet, or mixing or not mixing the breed; and the king or statesman has the care of animals which have not cloven feet, and which do not mix the breed. And now, if we omit dogs, who can hardly be said to herd, I think that we have only two species left which remain undivided: and how are we to distinguish them? To geometricians, like you and Theaetetus, I can have no difficulty in explaining that man is a diameter, having a power of two feet; and the power of four-legged creatures, being the double of two feet, is the diameter of our diameter. There is another excellent jest which I spy in the two remaining species. Men and birds are both bipeds, and human beings are running a race with the airiest and freest of creation, in which they are far behind their competitors;—this is a great joke, and there is a still better in the juxtaposition of the bird-taker and the king, who may be seen scampering after them. For, as we remarked in discussing the Sophist, the dialectical method is no respecter of persons. But we might have proceeded, as I was saying, by another and a shorter road. In that case we should have begun by dividing land animals into bipeds and quadrupeds, and bipeds into winged and wingless; we should than have taken the Statesman and set him over the 'bipes implume,' and put the reins of government into his hands.
And now let’s start over with the art of managing herds. You’ve probably heard about the fish farms in the Nile and in the ponds of the Great King, and the goose and crane nurseries in Thessaly. These lead us to a new way of dividing between land herds and water herds:—I don’t need to explain which one the king cares about. Land herds can be split into walking and flying; and everyone knows that the political animal is a walker. At this point, we can take a longer or shorter path, and since we're already close to the end, I see no issue with taking the longer route, which aligns with the principle we were establishing. The domesticated, walking herd animal can be divided into two groups—horned and hornless—and the king is focused on the hornless; these can further be split into animals with or without cloven hooves, or those that mix breeds or don’t. The king or statesman takes care of animals that don’t have cloven hooves and don’t mix breeds. Now, if we ignore dogs, which hardly count as herders, I think we’re left with just two undivided species: but how do we distinguish them? For you geometricians like yourself and Theaetetus, I can easily explain that a human is a diameter, having the power of two feet; and the power of four-legged creatures, being double that of two feet, is the diameter of our diameter. There’s another clever joke in the two remaining species. Men and birds are both bipeds, and humans are racing against the most agile and free beings in creation, where they’re lagging far behind their competition;—that’s quite a joke, and there’s an even better one in the comparison of the bird catcher and the king, who can be seen chasing after them. Because, as we noted in discussing the Sophist, the dialectical method doesn’t favor anyone. But we could have taken another and shorter path. In that case, we would have started by dividing land animals into bipeds and quadrupeds, and bipeds into winged and wingless; then we would have put the Statesman in charge of the 'bipes implume,' handing the reins of government over to him.
Here let us sum up:—The science of pure knowledge had a part which was the science of command, and this had a part which was a science of wholesale command; and this was divided into the management of animals, and was again parted off into the management of herds of animals, and again of land animals, and these into hornless, and these into bipeds; and so at last we arrived at man, and found the political and royal science. And yet we have not clearly distinguished the political shepherd from his rivals. No one would think of usurping the prerogatives of the ordinary shepherd, who on all hands is admitted to be the trainer, matchmaker, doctor, musician of his flock. But the royal shepherd has numberless competitors, from whom he must be distinguished; there are merchants, husbandmen, physicians, who will all dispute his right to manage the flock. I think that we can best distinguish him by having recourse to a famous old tradition, which may amuse as well as instruct us; the narrative is perfectly true, although the scepticism of mankind is prone to doubt the tales of old. You have heard what happened in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes? 'You mean about the golden lamb?' No, not that; but another part of the story, which tells how the sun and stars once arose in the west and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, as a witness to the right of Atreus. 'There is such a story.' And no doubt you have heard of the empire of Cronos, and of the earthborn men? The origin of these and the like stories is to be found in the tale which I am about to narrate.
Let's summarize: The science of pure knowledge had a section that dealt with the science of leadership, which included a part focusing on large-scale leadership. This was divided into managing animals, which further split into looking after herds of animals, then land animals, separating them into those without horns and those with two legs; eventually, we reached humans and discovered political and royal science. However, we haven’t clearly differentiated the political leader from others. Nobody would dream of taking over the ordinary shepherd's role, widely recognized as the trainer, matchmaker, doctor, and musician for his flock. But the royal leader has countless challengers, like merchants, farmers, and doctors, who will all contest his authority over the flock. I think we can best identify him through a well-known old story that can teach us as well as entertain. The tale is true, even if people tend to be skeptical about ancient stories. Have you heard about the conflict between Atreus and Thyestes? "You mean the one about the golden lamb?" No, not that, but a different part of the story that says the sun and stars once rose in the west and set in the east, and the god reversed their course to affirm Atreus's rights. "I’ve heard of such a story." And you must have heard about Cronos's empire and the earth-born men? The origins of these and similar tales can be found in the story I am about to tell.
There was a time when God directed the revolutions of the world, but at the completion of a certain cycle he let go; and the world, by a necessity of its nature, turned back, and went round the other way. For divine things alone are unchangeable; but the earth and heavens, although endowed with many glories, have a body, and are therefore liable to perturbation. In the case of the world, the perturbation is very slight, and amounts only to a reversal of motion. For the lord of moving things is alone self-moved; neither can piety allow that he goes at one time in one direction and at another time in another; or that God has given the universe opposite motions; or that there are two gods, one turning it in one direction, another in another. But the truth is, that there are two cycles of the world, and in one of them it is governed by an immediate Providence, and receives life and immortality, and in the other is let go again, and has a reverse action during infinite ages. This new action is spontaneous, and is due to exquisite perfection of balance, to the vast size of the universe, and to the smallness of the pivot upon which it turns. All changes in the heaven affect the animal world, and this being the greatest of them, is most destructive to men and animals. At the beginning of the cycle before our own very few of them had survived; and on these a mighty change passed. For their life was reversed like the motion of the world, and first of all coming to a stand then quickly returned to youth and beauty. The white locks of the aged became black; the cheeks of the bearded man were restored to their youth and fineness; the young men grew softer and smaller, and, being reduced to the condition of children in mind as well as body, began to vanish away; and the bodies of those who had died by violence, in a few moments underwent a parallel change and disappeared. In that cycle of existence there was no such thing as the procreation of animals from one another, but they were born of the earth, and of this our ancestors, who came into being immediately after the end of the last cycle and at the beginning of this, have preserved the recollection. Such traditions are often now unduly discredited, and yet they may be proved by internal evidence. For observe how consistent the narrative is; as the old returned to youth, so the dead returned to life; the wheel of their existence having been reversed, they rose again from the earth: a few only were reserved by God for another destiny. Such was the origin of the earthborn men.
There was a time when God controlled the revolutions of the world, but once a certain cycle ended, He let go; and the world, by its very nature, turned back and went in the opposite direction. Only divine things are unchangeable; the earth and heavens, although filled with many wonders, have a physical form and are therefore prone to disruption. In the case of the world, this disruption is minimal, just a reversal of motion. The master of all motion is self-moved; it's not reasonable to think He would change direction at times or that He created the universe with opposing motions, or that there are two gods, one guiding it one way and another guiding it the other. The truth is that there are two cycles of the world; one is governed by direct Providence, experiencing life and immortality, and the other is allowed to turn back again with a reversed action for countless ages. This new motion is spontaneous, resulting from perfect balance, the vastness of the universe, and the tiny pivot it turns on. All changes in the heavens impact the animal world, and since this is the greatest of all, it's most destructive to humans and animals. At the start of the cycle before our own, very few survived; and those that did experienced a significant transformation. Their lives reversed, like the world's motion, coming to a halt and then quickly returning to youth and beauty. The gray hair of the old turned black; the cheeks of the bearded men returned to their youthful plumpness; young men became softer and smaller, reverting to the mindset and bodies of children, and began to fade away; while the bodies of those who died violently quickly underwent a similar change and vanished. In that cycle, animals didn’t reproduce from one another; they were born from the earth, and our ancestors, who came into being right after the last cycle and at the start of this one, have kept this memory alive. These traditions are often unjustly dismissed today, yet they can be validated by their internal consistency. Notice how coherent the story is: as the old returned to youth, so too did the dead return to life; as their existence was reversed, they rose again from the earth: only a few were chosen by God for a different fate. This was the origin of the earthborn men.
'And is this cycle, of which you are speaking, the reign of Cronos, or our present state of existence?' No, Socrates, that blessed and spontaneous life belongs not to this, but to the previous state, in which God was the governor of the whole world, and other gods subject to him ruled over parts of the world, as is still the case in certain places. They were shepherds of men and animals, each of them sufficing for those of whom he had the care. And there was no violence among them, or war, or devouring of one another. Their life was spontaneous, because in those days God ruled over man; and he was to man what man is now to the animals. Under his government there were no estates, or private possessions, or families; but the earth produced a sufficiency of all things, and men were born out of the earth, having no traditions of the past; and as the temperature of the seasons was mild, they took no thought for raiment, and had no beds, but lived and dwelt in the open air.
'And is this cycle you’re talking about the reign of Cronos, or our current state of existence?' No, Socrates, that blessed and spontaneous life belongs not to this but to the previous state, in which God governed the entire world, and other gods under Him ruled over parts of it, as is still the case in some places. They were shepherds of people and animals, each one providing for those they cared for. There was no violence among them, no war, or consuming one another. Their life was spontaneous because, in those days, God ruled over humanity; He was to humans what humans are now to animals. Under His governance, there were no estates, private possessions, or families; instead, the earth produced enough for everyone, and people emerged from the earth without any traditions of the past. Since the seasons were mild, they didn’t worry about clothing and had no beds, living instead in the open air.
Such was the age of Cronos, and the age of Zeus is our own. Tell me, which is the happier of the two? Or rather, shall I tell you that the happiness of these children of Cronos must have depended on how they used their time? If having boundless leisure, and the power of discoursing not only with one another but with the animals, they had employed these advantages with a view to philosophy, gathering from every nature some addition to their store of knowledge;—or again, if they had merely eaten and drunk, and told stories to one another, and to the beasts;—in either case, I say, there would be no difficulty in answering the question. But as nobody knows which they did, the question must remain unanswered. And here is the point of my tale. In the fulness of time, when the earthborn men had all passed away, the ruler of the universe let go the helm, and became a spectator; and destiny and natural impulse swayed the world. At the same instant all the inferior deities gave up their hold; the whole universe rebounded, and there was a great earthquake, and utter ruin of all manner of animals. After a while the tumult ceased, and the universal creature settled down in his accustomed course, having authority over all other creatures, and following the instructions of his God and Father, at first more precisely, afterwards with less exactness. The reason of the falling off was the disengagement of a former chaos; 'a muddy vesture of decay' was a part of his original nature, out of which he was brought by his Creator, under whose immediate guidance, while he remained in that former cycle, the evil was minimized and the good increased to the utmost. And in the beginning of the new cycle all was well enough, but as time went on, discord entered in; at length the good was minimized and the evil everywhere diffused, and there was a danger of universal ruin. Then the Creator, seeing the world in great straits, and fearing that chaos and infinity would come again, in his tender care again placed himself at the helm and restored order, and made the world immortal and imperishable. Once more the cycle of life and generation was reversed; the infants grew into young men, and the young men became greyheaded; no longer did the animals spring out of the earth; as the whole world was now lord of its own progress, so the parts were to be self-created and self-nourished. At first the case of men was very helpless and pitiable; for they were alone among the wild beasts, and had to carry on the struggle for existence without arts or knowledge, and had no food, and did not know how to get any. That was the time when Prometheus brought them fire, Hephaestus and Athene taught them arts, and other gods gave them seeds and plants. Out of these human life was framed; for mankind were left to themselves, and ordered their own ways, living, like the universe, in one cycle after one manner, and in another cycle after another manner.
This was the age of Cronos, and the age of Zeus is our own. So, which one was happier? Or should I say that the happiness of Cronos's children depended on how they used their time? If they had endless free time and the ability to communicate not just with each other but also with animals, and if they had focused on philosophy, gathering knowledge from everything around them— or if they had simply eaten, drunk, and told stories to each other and the animals— in either case, it would be easy to answer that question. But since no one knows what they actually did, the question remains unanswered. And here lies the main point of my story. Eventually, when all the earthborn men had passed away, the ruler of the universe released control and became a spectator; destiny and natural impulse then dictated the world. At that moment, all the lesser deities relinquished their power; the universe shook, causing a great earthquake and the destruction of countless creatures. After some time, the chaos subsided, and the universal being settled back into its usual pattern, maintaining authority over all other creatures and initially following the guidance of its God and Father more closely, then gradually less so. The reason for this decline was the release of a previous chaos; 'a muddy shroud of decay' was part of its original nature, from which it was brought by its Creator, who minimized evil and maximized good during that earlier cycle. At the start of the new cycle, everything seemed fine, but as time passed, discord crept in; eventually, good diminished, and evil spread everywhere, causing the threat of total destruction. Then the Creator, seeing the world in dire straits and fearing that chaos would return, in His compassion took control once more to restore order and make the world immortal and indestructible. The cycle of life and creation was reversed again; infants grew into young adults, and young adults became elderly; animals no longer emerged from the earth. Now, the whole world was in charge of its own development, and each part was to be self-created and self-sustained. Initially, humans were very vulnerable and pitiable because they were alone among the wild beasts, struggling for survival without skills or knowledge, without food, and unaware of how to obtain any. This was when Prometheus brought them fire, Hephaestus and Athena taught them crafts, and other gods provided seeds and plants. Human life was formed from these; for mankind was left to their own devices, organizing their own ways of living, just like the universe, experiencing one cycle in one way and another cycle in another way.
Enough of the myth, which may show us two errors of which we were guilty in our account of the king. The first and grand error was in choosing for our king a god, who belongs to the other cycle, instead of a man from our own; there was a lesser error also in our failure to define the nature of the royal functions. The myth gave us only the image of a divine shepherd, whereas the statesmen and kings of our own day very much resemble their subjects in education and breeding. On retracing our steps we find that we gave too narrow a designation to the art which was concerned with command-for-self over living creatures, when we called it the 'feeding' of animals in flocks. This would apply to all shepherds, with the exception of the Statesman; but if we say 'managing' or 'tending' animals, the term would include him as well. Having remodelled the name, we may subdivide as before, first separating the human from the divine shepherd or manager. Then we may subdivide the human art of governing into the government of willing and unwilling subjects—royalty and tyranny—which are the extreme opposites of one another, although we in our simplicity have hitherto confounded them.
Enough of the myth, which reveals two mistakes we made in our description of the king. The first and biggest mistake was choosing a god from another realm to be our king instead of a man from our own. There was also a smaller mistake in our failure to clarify what royal functions actually are. The myth only provided us with the image of a divine shepherd, while the statesmen and kings of today are very much like their subjects in education and background. Looking back, we see that we limited the definition of the art concerned with commanding living beings by calling it the 'feeding' of animals in flocks. This term applies to all shepherds except for the statesman; however, if we say 'managing' or 'tending' animals, it would also include him. After updating the term, we can categorize it as before, first distinguishing between the human and divine shepherd or manager. Then we can break down the human art of governance into the management of willing and unwilling subjects—royalty and tyranny—which are complete opposites, although we've mistakenly confused them until now.
And yet the figure of the king is still defective. We have taken up a lump of fable, and have used more than we needed. Like statuaries, we have made some of the features out of proportion, and shall lose time in reducing them. Or our mythus may be compared to a picture, which is well drawn in outline, but is not yet enlivened by colour. And to intelligent persons language is, or ought to be, a better instrument of description than any picture. 'But what, Stranger, is the deficiency of which you speak?' No higher truth can be made clear without an example; every man seems to know all things in a dream, and to know nothing when he is awake. And the nature of example can only be illustrated by an example. Children are taught to read by being made to compare cases in which they do not know a certain letter with cases in which they know it, until they learn to recognize it in all its combinations. Example comes into use when we identify something unknown with that which is known, and form a common notion of both of them. Like the child who is learning his letters, the soul recognizes some of the first elements of things; and then again is at fault and unable to recognize them when they are translated into the difficult language of facts. Let us, then, take an example, which will illustrate the nature of example, and will also assist us in characterizing the political science, and in separating the true king from his rivals.
And yet, the concept of the king still has its flaws. We've taken a mix of stories and used more than we needed. Like sculptors, we've made some features out of proportion and will waste time trying to fix them. Or our myth could be compared to a picture that's well-drawn but lacking color. To smart people, language should be a better tool for description than any picture. "But what, stranger, is the flaw you’re talking about?" No deeper truth can be clarified without an example; it seems like everyone knows everything in their dreams but nothing when they're awake. The nature of an example can only be shown through an example. Kids learn to read by comparing words they don’t know with ones they do, until they can recognize all its forms. We use examples when we connect the unknown to the known, forming a shared understanding of both. Like a child learning their letters, the soul picks up on basic elements of things; yet it sometimes fails to recognize them when they're presented in the complex language of reality. So let’s take an example that will clarify what we mean by example and help us define political science while distinguishing the true king from his competitors.
I will select the example of weaving, or, more precisely, weaving of wool. In the first place, all possessions are either productive or preventive; of the preventive sort are spells and antidotes, divine and human, and also defences, and defences are either arms or screens, and screens are veils and also shields against heat and cold, and shields against heat and cold are shelters and coverings, and coverings are blankets or garments, and garments are in one piece or have many parts; and of these latter, some are stitched and others are fastened, and of these again some are made of fibres of plants and some of hair, and of these some are cemented with water and earth, and some are fastened with their own material; the latter are called clothes, and are made by the art of clothing, from which the art of weaving differs only in name, as the political differs from the royal science. Thus we have drawn several distinctions, but as yet have not distinguished the weaving of garments from the kindred and co-operative arts. For the first process to which the material is subjected is the opposite of weaving—I mean carding. And the art of carding, and the whole art of the fuller and the mender, are concerned with the treatment and production of clothes, as well as the art of weaving. Again, there are the arts which make the weaver's tools. And if we say that the weaver's art is the greatest and noblest of those which have to do with woollen garments,—this, although true, is not sufficiently distinct; because these other arts require to be first cleared away. Let us proceed, then, by regular steps:—There are causal or principal, and co-operative or subordinate arts. To the causal class belong the arts of washing and mending, of carding and spinning the threads, and the other arts of working in wool; these are chiefly of two kinds, falling under the two great categories of composition and division. Carding is of the latter sort. But our concern is chiefly with that part of the art of wool-working which composes, and of which one kind twists and the other interlaces the threads, whether the firmer texture of the warp or the looser texture of the woof. These are adapted to each other, and the orderly composition of them forms a woollen garment. And the art which presides over these operations is the art of weaving.
I will use the example of weaving, specifically the weaving of wool. First of all, all possessions can be either productive or preventive. Preventive items include spells and antidotes, both divine and human, as well as defenses, which can be arms or screens. Screens can be veils or shields against heat and cold, and shields against heat and cold can be shelters and coverings. Coverings can be blankets or garments, which can either be a single piece or multiple parts. Among the latter, some are stitched while others are fastened, and those can be made from plant fibers or hair. Some are held together with water and earth, while others use their own material; the latter are called clothes, created through the art of clothing. This art is only different in name from weaving, much like political science differs from royal science. We have made several distinctions, but we haven’t yet separated the weaving of garments from related and cooperative crafts. The first step in processing the material is opposite to weaving—I mean carding. The art of carding, along with the fulling and mending arts, deals with the treatment and production of clothes, just like weaving does. Additionally, there are arts that create the weaver's tools. While it may be true that the weaver's art is the greatest and noblest of those related to woolen garments, that claim isn’t sufficiently defined because the other arts need to be accounted for first. Let’s proceed step-by-step: There are causal or main arts, and cooperative or subordinate arts. Causal arts include washing and mending, carding, spinning threads, and other wool-working techniques; these mainly fall into two categories: composition and division. Carding is an example of the latter. However, our focus is on that part of wool-working which composes, where one type twists and the other interlaces the threads, whether it’s the tighter texture of the warp or the looser texture of the woof. These work together, and their orderly composition creates a woolen garment. The art overseeing these processes is the art of weaving.
But why did we go through this circuitous process, instead of saying at once that weaving is the art of entwining the warp and the woof? In order that our labour may not seem to be lost, I must explain the whole nature of excess and defect. There are two arts of measuring—one is concerned with relative size, and the other has reference to a mean or standard of what is meet. The difference between good and evil is the difference between a mean or measure and excess or defect. All things require to be compared, not only with one another, but with the mean, without which there would be no beauty and no art, whether the art of the statesman or the art of weaving or any other; for all the arts guard against excess or defect, which are real evils. This we must endeavour to show, if the arts are to exist; and the proof of this will be a harder piece of work than the demonstration of the existence of not-being which we proved in our discussion about the Sophist. At present I am content with the indirect proof that the existence of such a standard is necessary to the existence of the arts. The standard or measure, which we are now only applying to the arts, may be some day required with a view to the demonstration of absolute truth.
But why did we go through this roundabout process instead of just stating that weaving is the art of intertwining the warp and the woof? To make sure our efforts aren’t wasted, I need to explain the whole nature of excess and defect. There are two ways to measure—one relates to relative size, and the other refers to a standard or mean of what is appropriate. The difference between good and evil is the difference between a mean or measure and excess or defect. Everything needs to be compared, not just to each other, but also to the mean; without this, there would be no beauty and no art, whether it’s the art of a statesman, weaving, or anything else, because all arts caution against excess or defect, which are real evils. We must strive to demonstrate this if the arts are to endure, and proving this will be a tougher task than demonstrating the existence of non-being, which we discussed in relation to the Sophist. For now, I’m satisfied with the indirect proof that the existence of such a standard is essential for the existence of the arts. The standard or measure we’re currently applying to the arts may someday be needed to demonstrate absolute truth.
We may now divide this art of measurement into two parts; placing in the one part all the arts which measure the relative size or number of objects, and in the other all those which depend upon a mean or standard. Many accomplished men say that the art of measurement has to do with all things, but these persons, although in this notion of theirs they may very likely be right, are apt to fail in seeing the differences of classes—they jumble together in one the 'more' and the 'too much,' which are very different things. Whereas the right way is to find the differences of classes, and to comprehend the things which have any affinity under the same class.
We can now break this art of measurement into two parts: one part includes all the methods that measure the relative size or quantity of objects, and the other part includes those that are based on a mean or standard. Many skilled individuals claim that the art of measurement applies to everything, and while they may be correct in that belief, they often overlook the differences between classes—they confuse 'more' and 'too much,' which are very different concepts. The correct approach is to recognize the differences between classes and to group related items together.
I will make one more observation by the way. When a pupil at a school is asked the letters which make up a particular word, is he not asked with a view to his knowing the same letters in all words? And our enquiry about the Statesman in like manner is intended not only to improve our knowledge of politics, but our reasoning powers generally. Still less would any one analyze the nature of weaving for its own sake. There is no difficulty in exhibiting sensible images, but the greatest and noblest truths have no outward form adapted to the eye of sense, and are only revealed in thought. And all that we are now saying is said for the sake of them. I make these remarks, because I want you to get rid of any impression that our discussion about weaving and about the reversal of the universe, and the other discussion about the Sophist and not-being, were tedious and irrelevant. Please to observe that they can only be fairly judged when compared with what is meet; and yet not with what is meet for producing pleasure, nor even meet for making discoveries, but for the great end of developing the dialectical method and sharpening the wits of the auditors. He who censures us, should prove that, if our words had been fewer, they would have been better calculated to make men dialecticians.
I'll make one more point. When a student in school is asked about the letters in a particular word, isn't it to help them recognize those same letters in other words? Similarly, our inquiry about the Statesman isn't just to enhance our understanding of politics, but to improve our reasoning skills overall. No one would analyze the nature of weaving just for its own sake. It's not hard to show tangible images, but the greatest and most profound truths don’t have a physical form that we can see; they are revealed only through thought. Everything we're discussing now is for the sake of those truths. I mention this because I want you to let go of the idea that our conversations about weaving, the reversal of the universe, and the discussions about the Sophist and not-being were tedious and irrelevant. Please note that they can only be fairly assessed in relation to what truly matters; and not just in terms of what pleases us, or what leads to discoveries, but for the crucial purpose of developing the dialectical method and sharpening the minds of the listeners. Anyone who criticizes us should show that if our words had been fewer, they would have been more effective in turning people into dialecticians.
And now let us return to our king or statesman, and transfer to him the example of weaving. The royal art has been separated from that of other herdsmen, but not from the causal and co-operative arts which exist in states; these do not admit of dichotomy, and therefore they must be carved neatly, like the limbs of a victim, not into more parts than are necessary. And first (1) we have the large class of instruments, which includes almost everything in the world; from these may be parted off (2) vessels which are framed for the preservation of things, moist or dry, prepared in the fire or out of the fire. The royal or political art has nothing to do with either of these, any more than with the arts of making (3) vehicles, or (4) defences, whether dresses, or arms, or walls, or (5) with the art of making ornaments, whether pictures or other playthings, as they may be fitly called, for they have no serious use. Then (6) there are the arts which furnish gold, silver, wood, bark, and other materials, which should have been put first; these, again, have no concern with the kingly science; any more than the arts (7) which provide food and nourishment for the human body, and which furnish occupation to the husbandman, huntsman, doctor, cook, and the like, but not to the king or statesman. Further, there are small things, such as coins, seals, stamps, which may with a little violence be comprehended in one of the above-mentioned classes. Thus they will embrace every species of property with the exception of animals,—but these have been already included in the art of tending herds. There remains only the class of slaves or ministers, among whom I expect that the real rivals of the king will be discovered. I am not speaking of the veritable slave bought with money, nor of the hireling who lets himself out for service, nor of the trader or merchant, who at best can only lay claim to economical and not to royal science. Nor am I referring to government officials, such as heralds and scribes, for these are only the servants of the rulers, and not the rulers themselves. I admit that there may be something strange in any servants pretending to be masters, but I hardly think that I could have been wrong in supposing that the principal claimants to the throne will be of this class. Let us try once more: There are diviners and priests, who are full of pride and prerogative; these, as the law declares, know how to give acceptable gifts to the gods, and in many parts of Hellas the duty of performing solemn sacrifices is assigned to the chief magistrate, as at Athens to the King Archon. At last, then, we have found a trace of those whom we were seeking. But still they are only servants and ministers.
And now let's go back to our king or politician and look at him through the lens of weaving. The royal art has been set apart from that of other workers, but it's still connected to the cooperative arts that exist within states; these cannot be easily divided, so they must be crafted carefully, like the limbs of a sacrificed animal, without splitting them into more pieces than necessary. First, (1) we have the large category of tools, which encompass almost everything in the world; from this, we can separate (2) containers made to preserve items, whether wet or dry, whether made in heat or not. The royal or political art isn't linked to any of these, just as it isn't tied to the arts of building (3) vehicles or (4) defenses, whether that's clothing, weapons, or walls, nor (5) to the art of creating decorations, like paintings or other toys, since they serve no serious purpose. Then (6) there are the crafts that provide gold, silver, wood, bark, and other materials, which should really have come first; again, these have nothing to do with royal knowledge, just like the arts (7) that supply food and nourishment for the human body, which are the work of farmers, hunters, doctors, cooks, and so forth, but not the king or politician. Additionally, there are small items, like coins, seals, and stamps, which can somewhat awkwardly fit into one of the earlier categories. Thus, they will cover every type of property except for animals—those have already been included in the art of herding. The only category left is that of slaves or subordinates, among whom I believe the real challengers to the king will be found. I'm not talking about actual slaves bought with money, nor about hired workers who offer their services, nor about traders or merchants, who can at best claim economic expertise, not royal knowledge. I’m also not referring to government officials like heralds and scribes, since they are just servants of the rulers, not the rulers themselves. I acknowledge that it might seem odd for any servant to act like a master, but I don't think I was wrong in thinking that the main contenders for the throne will belong to this group. Let’s consider again: There are diviners and priests, who are full of pride and privilege; these, as the law states, know how to offer acceptable gifts to the gods, and in many parts of Greece, the responsibility of conducting formal sacrifices falls to the top magistrate, such as the King Archon in Athens. Finally, we have found a hint of those we were looking for. But still, they are just servants and subordinates.
And who are these who next come into view in various forms of men and animals and other monsters appearing—lions and centaurs and satyrs—who are these? I did not know them at first, for every one looks strange when he is unexpected. But now I recognize the politician and his troop, the chief of Sophists, the prince of charlatans, the most accomplished of wizards, who must be carefully distinguished from the true king or statesman. And here I will interpose a question: What are the true forms of government? Are they not three—monarchy, oligarchy, and democracy? and the distinctions of freedom and compulsion, law and no law, poverty and riches expand these three into six. Monarchy may be divided into royalty and tyranny; oligarchy into aristocracy and plutocracy; and democracy may observe the law or may not observe it. But are any of these governments worthy of the name? Is not government a science, and are we to suppose that scientific government is secured by the rulers being many or few, rich or poor, or by the rule being compulsory or voluntary? Can the many attain to science? In no Hellenic city are there fifty good draught players, and certainly there are not as many kings, for by kings we mean all those who are possessed of the political science. A true government must therefore be the government of one, or of a few. And they may govern us either with or without law, and whether they are poor or rich, and however they govern, provided they govern on some scientific principle,—it makes no difference. And as the physician may cure us with our will, or against our will, and by any mode of treatment, burning, bleeding, lowering, fattening, if he only proceeds scientifically: so the true governor may reduce or fatten or bleed the body corporate, while he acts according to the rules of his art, and with a view to the good of the state, whether according to law or without law.
And who are these people that appear next in different forms of men, animals, and other creatures—lions, centaurs, and satyrs—who are they? I didn't recognize them at first because everyone seems strange when they are unexpected. But now I see the politician and his entourage, the leader of the Sophists, the master of trickery, the most skilled of wizards, who must be carefully distinguished from the true leader or statesman. Here, I want to ask a question: What are the true forms of government? Aren't there three—monarchy, oligarchy, and democracy? The distinctions of freedom and compulsion, law and lawlessness, poverty and wealth divide these three into six. Monarchy can be split into kingship and tyranny; oligarchy into aristocracy and plutocracy; and democracy can either uphold the law or ignore it. But are any of these governments really deserving of the name? Isn't government a science? Should we think that a scientific government is determined by whether the rulers are many or few, rich or poor, or whether the rule is compulsory or voluntary? Can the many achieve scientific understanding? In no Greek city are there fifty great players, and there definitely aren’t as many kings, as kings are, in our sense, those who possess political knowledge. Therefore, a true government must be controlled by one or a few individuals. They can rule us with or without laws, regardless of whether they are poor or rich, as long as they govern according to some scientific principle—it doesn't matter how they do it. Just like a doctor can heal us with our consent or against it, and through any method—burning, bleeding, weakening, fattening—as long as he acts scientifically: the true ruler can diminish or strengthen or drain the collective body, as long as he adheres to the principles of his craft, aiming for the good of the state, whether according to law or otherwise.
'I do not like the notion, that there can be good government without law.'
'I don't like the idea that good government can exist without law.'
I must explain: Law-making certainly is the business of a king; and yet the best thing of all is, not that the law should rule, but that the king should rule, for the varieties of circumstances are endless, and no simple or universal rule can suit them all, or last for ever. The law is just an ignorant brute of a tyrant, who insists always on his commands being fulfilled under all circumstances. 'Then why have we laws at all?' I will answer that question by asking you whether the training master gives a different discipline to each of his pupils, or whether he has a general rule of diet and exercise which is suited to the constitutions of the majority? 'The latter.' The legislator, too, is obliged to lay down general laws, and cannot enact what is precisely suitable to each particular case. He cannot be sitting at every man's side all his life, and prescribe for him the minute particulars of his duty, and therefore he is compelled to impose on himself and others the restriction of a written law. Let me suppose now, that a physician or trainer, having left directions for his patients or pupils, goes into a far country, and comes back sooner than he intended; owing to some unexpected change in the weather, the patient or pupil seems to require a different mode of treatment: Would he persist in his old commands, under the idea that all others are noxious and heterodox? Viewed in the light of science, would not the continuance of such regulations be ridiculous? And if the legislator, or another like him, comes back from a far country, is he to be prohibited from altering his own laws? The common people say: Let a man persuade the city first, and then let him impose new laws. But is a physician only to cure his patients by persuasion, and not by force? Is he a worse physician who uses a little gentle violence in effecting the cure? Or shall we say, that the violence is just, if exercised by a rich man, and unjust, if by a poor man? May not any man, rich or poor, with or without law, and whether the citizens like or not, do what is for their good? The pilot saves the lives of the crew, not by laying down rules, but by making his art a law, and, like him, the true governor has a strength of art which is superior to the law. This is scientific government, and all others are imitations only. Yet no great number of persons can attain to this science. And hence follows an important result. The true political principle is to assert the inviolability of the law, which, though not the best thing possible, is best for the imperfect condition of man.
I need to clarify: Making laws is definitely a king's job; however, the ideal situation is not about the law ruling but the king ruling. This is because circumstances are varied and countless, and no simple or universal rule can address them all or endure indefinitely. The law is like a rigid tyrant that demands its directives be followed no matter what. "So why do we even have laws?" I’ll respond by asking whether a coach gives each of their students a different training method or has a general guideline for diet and exercise that fits most people's needs. "The latter." Similarly, lawmakers must create general laws because they can't customize rules for every individual situation. They can’t be with each person at all times to tell them the specifics of their duties, so they have to rely on written laws. Now, imagine if a doctor or coach, after giving guidelines to their patients or students, travels far away and then returns sooner than planned. If circumstances change unexpectedly, and the patient or student seems to need a different approach, would the doctor stick to their original instructions, thinking that any changes would be harmful? From a scientific perspective, wouldn’t it be ridiculous to maintain those outdated rules? If a legislator or someone similar returns from abroad, should they not be allowed to modify their own laws? The general public says: Let a person win over the city first, before introducing new laws. But does a doctor only treat their patients through persuasion, rather than through any force? Is a doctor who uses a bit of gentle pressure to help their patients any less skilled? Or should we say that it’s acceptable when a wealthy person exercises force but wrong when a poor person does? Can any individual, regardless of wealth, with or without the law, and whether citizens agree or not, act in the best interest of others? A pilot doesn’t save the crew by enforcing rules but by applying their expertise as law. Similarly, a true leader possesses a mastery that transcends the law. This is effective governance, and the rest are just copies. Yet, not many people can reach this level of expertise. This leads to an important conclusion: The core political principle is to uphold the sanctity of the law, which, while not perfect, is the best we can do given humanity's flaws.
I will explain my meaning by an illustration:—Suppose that mankind, indignant at the rogueries and caprices of physicians and pilots, call together an assembly, in which all who like may speak, the skilled as well as the unskilled, and that in their assembly they make decrees for regulating the practice of navigation and medicine which are to be binding on these professions for all time. Suppose that they elect annually by vote or lot those to whom authority in either department is to be delegated. And let us further imagine, that when the term of their magistracy has expired, the magistrates appointed by them are summoned before an ignorant and unprofessional court, and may be condemned and punished for breaking the regulations. They even go a step further, and enact, that he who is found enquiring into the truth of navigation and medicine, and is seeking to be wise above what is written, shall be called not an artist, but a dreamer, a prating Sophist and a corruptor of youth; and if he try to persuade others to investigate those sciences in a manner contrary to the law, he shall be punished with the utmost severity. And like rules might be extended to any art or science. But what would be the consequence?
I’ll explain what I mean with an example: Imagine that people, fed up with the tricks and whims of doctors and pilots, gather an assembly where anyone can speak, both skilled and unskilled. In this assembly, they create rules to regulate how navigation and medicine are practiced, and these rules are to be binding on these professions forever. Let’s say they elect by vote or lottery those who will hold authority in these areas each year. Now, picture that when their time in office is over, the appointed leaders are called before an uneducated and unprofessional court, where they can be condemned and punished for breaking the rules. They even go further and declare that anyone who questions the established knowledge of navigation and medicine or seeks to gain more wisdom than what is officially recognized shall be labeled not as a skilled practitioner but as a dreamer, a loquacious sophist, and a corrupter of youth; and if that person tries to inspire others to explore those fields in a way that goes against the law, they will face severe punishment. Similar rules could be applied to any art or science. But what would the outcome be?
'The arts would utterly perish, and human life, which is bad enough already, would become intolerable.'
'The arts would completely disappear, and human life, which is already pretty bad, would become unbearable.'
But suppose, once more, that we were to appoint some one as the guardian of the law, who was both ignorant and interested, and who perverted the law: would not this be a still worse evil than the other? 'Certainly.' For the laws are based on some experience and wisdom. Hence the wiser course is, that they should be observed, although this is not the best thing of all, but only the second best. And whoever, having skill, should try to improve them, would act in the spirit of the law-giver. But then, as we have seen, no great number of men, whether poor or rich, can be makers of laws. And so, the nearest approach to true government is, when men do nothing contrary to their own written laws and national customs. When the rich preserve their customs and maintain the law, this is called aristocracy, or if they neglect the law, oligarchy. When an individual rules according to law, whether by the help of science or opinion, this is called monarchy; and when he has royal science he is a king, whether he be so in fact or not; but when he rules in spite of law, and is blind with ignorance and passion, he is called a tyrant. These forms of government exist, because men despair of the true king ever appearing among them; if he were to appear, they would joyfully hand over to him the reins of government. But, as there is no natural ruler of the hive, they meet together and make laws. And do we wonder, when the foundation of politics is in the letter only, at the miseries of states? Ought we not rather to admire the strength of the political bond? For cities have endured the worst of evils time out of mind; many cities have been shipwrecked, and some are like ships foundering, because their pilots are absolutely ignorant of the science which they profess.
But let's say we appoint someone as the guardian of the law, who is both uninformed and biased, and who distorts the law: wouldn’t that be an even worse problem than the other option? 'Absolutely.' The laws are based on some level of experience and understanding. Therefore, the wiser choice is that they should be followed, even though this isn’t the best option out there, just the second best. Anyone who has the expertise and tries to improve them would be acting in the spirit of the law-maker. However, as we've seen, a large number of people, whether wealthy or poor, cannot create laws. So, the closest we get to true governance is when people do nothing against their own established laws and customs. When the rich uphold their customs and enforce the law, this is called aristocracy, whereas neglecting the law is referred to as oligarchy. When an individual governs according to the law, whether through knowledge or public opinion, this is called monarchy; if he possesses true royal knowledge, he is a king, regardless of whether he actually is one or not. But when he rules against the law, driven by ignorance and passion, he is called a tyrant. These types of government exist because people have lost hope of a true king ever coming to lead them; if he were to appear, they would gladly hand over control. Yet, since there isn’t a natural leader among them, they come together to make laws. And should we be surprised, when the foundation of politics is solely based on written text, at the suffering of states? Shouldn’t we instead admire the strength of the political connection? Cities have endured terrible hardships throughout history; many cities have faced destruction, and some resemble ships sinking because their leaders utterly lack the knowledge necessary for their roles.
Let us next ask, which of these untrue forms of government is the least bad, and which of them is the worst? I said at the beginning, that each of the three forms of government, royalty, aristocracy, and democracy, might be divided into two, so that the whole number of them, including the best, will be seven. Under monarchy we have already distinguished royalty and tyranny; of oligarchy there were two kinds, aristocracy and plutocracy; and democracy may also be divided, for there is a democracy which observes, and a democracy which neglects, the laws. The government of one is the best and the worst—the government of a few is less bad and less good—the government of the many is the least bad and least good of them all, being the best of all lawless governments, and the worst of all lawful ones. But the rulers of all these states, unless they have knowledge, are maintainers of idols, and themselves idols—wizards, and also Sophists; for, after many windings, the term 'Sophist' comes home to them.
Let’s next consider which of these false forms of government is the least bad and which is the worst. I mentioned at the start that each of the three forms of government—monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy—can be divided into two, giving us a total of seven, including the best. In monarchy, we have already identified royalty and tyranny; for oligarchy, there are two types: aristocracy and plutocracy; and democracy can also be split, as there is a democracy that upholds the laws and one that ignores them. The rule of one is both the best and the worst—rule by a few is less bad and less good—the rule of the many is the least bad and least good overall, being the best among lawless governments and the worst among lawful ones. However, the leaders of all these states, unless they possess knowledge, are simply maintainers of illusions and themselves become illusions—magicians, and also Sophists; for, after many twists and turns, the label 'Sophist' ultimately fits them.
And now enough of centaurs and satyrs: the play is ended, and they may quit the political stage. Still there remain some other and better elements, which adhere to the royal science, and must be drawn off in the refiner's fire before the gold can become quite pure. The arts of the general, the judge, and the orator, will have to be separated from the royal art; when the separation has been made, the nature of the king will be unalloyed. Now there are inferior sciences, such as music and others; and there is a superior science, which determines whether music is to be learnt or not, and this is different from them, and the governor of them. The science which determines whether we are to use persuasion, or not, is higher than the art of persuasion; the science which determines whether we are to go to war, is higher than the art of the general. The science which makes the laws, is higher than that which only administers them. And the science which has this authority over the rest, is the science of the king or statesman.
And now, enough of centaurs and satyrs: the play is over, and they can leave the political stage. However, there are still some other, better elements that are part of the royal science, and they need to be refined before the gold can be completely pure. The skills of the general, the judge, and the orator will need to be separated from the royal art; once that separation is made, the essence of the king will be unblemished. There are lesser arts, like music and others; and there is a higher art that decides whether we should learn music or not, which is distinct from them and governs them. The art that determines whether we use persuasion is greater than the art of persuasion itself; the art that decides whether we should go to war is greater than the general's art. The art that creates the laws is greater than the one that merely applies them. And the art that holds authority over all these is the art of the king or statesman.
Once more we will endeavour to view this royal science by the light of our example. We may compare the state to a web, and I will show you how the different threads are drawn into one. You would admit—would you not?—that there are parts of virtue (although this position is sometimes assailed by Eristics), and one part of virtue is temperance, and another courage. These are two principles which are in a manner antagonistic to one another; and they pervade all nature; the whole class of the good and beautiful is included under them. The beautiful may be subdivided into two lesser classes: one of these is described by us in terms expressive of motion or energy, and the other in terms expressive of rest and quietness. We say, how manly! how vigorous! how ready! and we say also, how calm! how temperate! how dignified! This opposition of terms is extended by us to all actions, to the tones of the voice, the notes of music, the workings of the mind, the characters of men. The two classes both have their exaggerations; and the exaggerations of the one are termed 'hardness,' 'violence,' 'madness;' of the other 'cowardliness,' or 'sluggishness.' And if we pursue the enquiry, we find that these opposite characters are naturally at variance, and can hardly be reconciled. In lesser matters the antagonism between them is ludicrous, but in the State may be the occasion of grave disorders, and may disturb the whole course of human life. For the orderly class are always wanting to be at peace, and hence they pass imperceptibly into the condition of slaves; and the courageous sort are always wanting to go to war, even when the odds are against them, and are soon destroyed by their enemies. But the true art of government, first preparing the material by education, weaves the two elements into one, maintaining authority over the carders of the wool, and selecting the proper subsidiary arts which are necessary for making the web. The royal science is queen of educators, and begins by choosing the natures which she is to train, punishing with death and exterminating those who are violently carried away to atheism and injustice, and enslaving those who are wallowing in the mire of ignorance. The rest of the citizens she blends into one, combining the stronger element of courage, which we may call the warp, with the softer element of temperance, which we may imagine to be the woof. These she binds together, first taking the eternal elements of the honourable, the good, and the just, and fastening them with a divine cord in a heaven-born nature, and then fastening the animal elements with a human cord. The good legislator can implant by education the higher principles; and where they exist there is no difficulty in inserting the lesser human bonds, by which the State is held together; these are the laws of intermarriage, and of union for the sake of offspring. Most persons in their marriages seek after wealth or power; or they are clannish, and choose those who are like themselves,—the temperate marrying the temperate, and the courageous the courageous. The two classes thrive and flourish at first, but they soon degenerate; the one become mad, and the other feeble and useless. This would not have been the case, if they had both originally held the same notions about the honourable and the good; for then they never would have allowed the temperate natures to be separated from the courageous, but they would have bound them together by common honours and reputations, by intermarriages, and by the choice of rulers who combine both qualities. The temperate are careful and just, but are wanting in the power of action; the courageous fall short of them in justice, but in action are superior to them: and no state can prosper in which either of these qualities is wanting. The noblest and best of all webs or states is that which the royal science weaves, combining the two sorts of natures in a single texture, and in this enfolding freeman and slave and every other social element, and presiding over them all.
Once again, we’ll try to understand this royal science through our example. We can think of the state as a web, and I’ll show you how different threads come together. You would agree, wouldn’t you, that there are aspects of virtue (even though this idea is sometimes challenged by skeptics), and one part of virtue is temperance, while another is courage. These are two principles that are somewhat opposed to each other, and they exist throughout nature; everything good and beautiful falls under them. The beautiful can be divided into two categories: one is described using terms related to movement or energy, and the other is described using terms related to stillness and calmness. We say things like, “how manly! how vigorous! how eager!” and we also say, “how calm! how moderate! how dignified!” This contrast of terms applies to all actions, to vocal tones, musical notes, thoughts, and personality traits. Both categories have their extremes; the extremes of one are called “hardness,” “violence,” or “madness,” while the other’s are labeled “cowardice” or “laziness.” If we dig deeper, we find that these opposing traits naturally conflict and are hardly reconcilable. In less significant matters, their opposition is amusing, but in the state, it can cause serious disorder and disrupt human life as a whole. The orderly types always want peace, leading them to slip into a state of servitude, while the courageous types constantly seek war, even against overwhelming odds, and are quickly overtaken by their enemies. However, the true art of governance, first preparing individuals through education, intertwines these two elements, maintaining control over those who weave the fabric, and selecting the necessary supporting skills to create the web. The royal science is the highest form of education, starting by choosing which individuals to train, punishing with death those who are aggressively drawn toward atheism and injustice, and keeping in servitude those who are stuck in ignorance. The remaining citizens are unified, blending the stronger trait of courage, which we could think of as the warp, with the gentler trait of temperance, which we could think of as the weft. These traits are intertwined, first taking the eternal elements of honor, goodness, and justice, binding them with a divine cord in a naturally noble spirit, and then connecting the earthly elements with a human cord. A good legislator can instill higher principles through education, and where these principles exist, it is easy to add the smaller human bonds that hold the state together; these include laws about marriage and partnerships for the sake of children. Most people, when they marry, seek wealth or power, or they look for partners who are similar to themselves—the temperate marrying the temperate, and the courageous marrying the courageous. Initially, these two classes thrive, but they soon decline; one class becomes reckless, and the other weak and ineffective. This wouldn’t have happened if both classes had originally shared the same views on honor and goodness; if they had, they wouldn’t have allowed the temperate to be separated from the courageous, but would have linked them through shared honors and reputations, through intermarriages, and by choosing leaders who possess both qualities. The temperate are careful and just but lack the ability to take action, while the courageous are less just but excel in action: no state can succeed without either of these qualities. The finest and best kind of web or state is the one woven by the royal science, merging both types of natures into a single fabric, incorporating both free individuals and slaves and every other social element, and overseeing them all.
'Your picture, Stranger, of the king and statesman, no less than of the Sophist, is quite perfect.'
'Your depiction, Stranger, of the king and politician, just as much as of the Sophist, is really spot on.'
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Please provide the text you would like me to modernize.
The principal subjects in the Statesman may be conveniently embraced under six or seven heads:—(1) the myth; (2) the dialectical interest; (3) the political aspects of the dialogue; (4) the satirical and paradoxical vein; (5) the necessary imperfection of law; (6) the relation of the work to the other writings of Plato; lastly (7), we may briefly consider the genuineness of the Sophist and Statesman, which can hardly be assumed without proof, since the two dialogues have been questioned by three such eminent Platonic scholars as Socher, Schaarschmidt, and Ueberweg.
The main topics in the Statesman can be conveniently grouped into six or seven categories: (1) the myth; (2) the dialectical interest; (3) the political aspects of the dialogue; (4) the satirical and paradoxical tone; (5) the inevitable flaws in law; (6) the connection of the work to Plato's other writings; and finally, (7) we should briefly consider the authenticity of the Sophist and Statesman, which can't be taken for granted without evidence, as these two dialogues have been questioned by three notable Platonic scholars: Socher, Schaarschmidt, and Ueberweg.
I. The hand of the master is clearly visible in the myth. First in the connection with mythology;—he wins a kind of verisimilitude for this as for his other myths, by adopting received traditions, of which he pretends to find an explanation in his own larger conception (compare Introduction to Critias). The young Socrates has heard of the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, and of the earth-born men; but he has never heard the origin of these remarkable phenomena. Nor is Plato, here or elsewhere, wanting in denunciations of the incredulity of 'this latter age,' on which the lovers of the marvellous have always delighted to enlarge. And he is not without express testimony to the truth of his narrative;—such testimony as, in the Timaeus, the first men gave of the names of the gods ('They must surely have known their own ancestors'). For the first generation of the new cycle, who lived near the time, are supposed to have preserved a recollection of a previous one. He also appeals to internal evidence, viz. the perfect coherence of the tale, though he is very well aware, as he says in the Cratylus, that there may be consistency in error as well as in truth. The gravity and minuteness with which some particulars are related also lend an artful aid. The profound interest and ready assent of the young Socrates, who is not too old to be amused 'with a tale which a child would love to hear,' are a further assistance. To those who were naturally inclined to believe that the fortunes of mankind are influenced by the stars, or who maintained that some one principle, like the principle of the Same and the Other in the Timaeus, pervades all things in the world, the reversal of the motion of the heavens seemed necessarily to produce a reversal of the order of human life. The spheres of knowledge, which to us appear wide asunder as the poles, astronomy and medicine, were naturally connected in the minds of early thinkers, because there was little or nothing in the space between them. Thus there is a basis of philosophy, on which the improbabilities of the tale may be said to rest. These are some of the devices by which Plato, like a modern novelist, seeks to familiarize the marvellous.
I. The master's influence is clearly evident in the myth. First, in relation to mythology; he gains a sort of believability for this, just like his other myths, by using accepted traditions, which he pretends to explain through his broader ideas (see Introduction to Critias). The young Socrates has heard about the sun rising in the west and setting in the east and of men born from the earth, but he doesn’t know the origin of these extraordinary phenomena. Plato also criticizes the disbelief of 'this current age,' which those fond of the extraordinary have always enjoyed discussing. He even provides specific evidence to support the truth of his story;—like the Timaeus, where the first humans testified about the names of the gods ('They must have known their own ancestors'). The first generation of the new cycle, who lived around the same time, is believed to have retained memories of a previous one. He also refers to internal evidence, namely the perfect coherence of the tale, though he acknowledges, as he points out in the Cratylus, that there can be consistency in both error and truth. The seriousness and detail with which some elements are presented also add to the effect. The deep interest and quick agreement of the young Socrates, who is not too old to enjoy 'a story that a child would love to hear,' further contribute. For those who inherently believed that the fate of humanity is influenced by the stars or argued that a single principle, like the principle of the Same and the Other in the Timaeus, pervades everything in the world, the reversal of the motion of the heavens seemed to necessarily lead to a reversal of human life. The fields of knowledge that seem as distant to us as the poles—astronomy and medicine—were naturally linked in the minds of early thinkers because there was little to bridge the gap between them. Thus, there is a philosophical foundation on which the improbabilities of the tale can be said to rest. These are some of the techniques Plato uses, much like a modern novelist, to make the marvelous feel familiar.
The myth, like that of the Timaeus and Critias, is rather historical than poetical, in this respect corresponding to the general change in the later writings of Plato, when compared with the earlier ones. It is hardly a myth in the sense in which the term might be applied to the myth of the Phaedrus, the Republic, the Phaedo, or the Gorgias, but may be more aptly compared with the didactic tale in which Protagoras describes the fortunes of primitive man, or with the description of the gradual rise of a new society in the Third Book of the Laws. Some discrepancies may be observed between the mythology of the Statesman and the Timaeus, and between the Timaeus and the Republic. But there is no reason to expect that all Plato's visions of a former, any more than of a future, state of existence, should conform exactly to the same pattern. We do not find perfect consistency in his philosophy; and still less have we any right to demand this of him in his use of mythology and figures of speech. And we observe that while employing all the resources of a writer of fiction to give credibility to his tales, he is not disposed to insist upon their literal truth. Rather, as in the Phaedo, he says, 'Something of the kind is true;' or, as in the Gorgias, 'This you will think to be an old wife's tale, but you can think of nothing truer;' or, as in the Statesman, he describes his work as a 'mass of mythology,' which was introduced in order to teach certain lessons; or, as in the Phaedrus, he secretly laughs at such stories while refusing to disturb the popular belief in them.
The myth, like those in the Timaeus and Critias, is more historical than poetic, reflecting the overall change in Plato's later writings compared to his earlier works. It's not really a myth in the way the term applies to the myths in Phaedrus, Republic, Phaedo, or Gorgias, but is more similar to the instructive story where Protagoras describes early human experiences or the account of how a new society gradually emerges in the Third Book of the Laws. You might notice some inconsistencies between the mythology in the Statesman and that in the Timaeus, and between the Timaeus and the Republic. However, we shouldn't expect all of Plato's ideas about a past, or even future, state of existence to match perfectly. We don't see perfect consistency in his philosophy, and we certainly can't demand that from him when it comes to his use of mythology and figures of speech. It's clear that while he uses the techniques of fiction to make his stories believable, he's not trying to claim they are literally true. Instead, as he states in the Phaedo, 'Something of the kind is true;' or in the Gorgias, 'You might think this is an old wives' tale, but you can't think of anything truer;' or in the Statesman, he calls his work a 'mass of mythology,' which was included to convey certain lessons; and in Phaedrus, he quietly mocks these stories while choosing not to challenge the common belief in them.
The greater interest of the myth consists in the philosophical lessons which Plato presents to us in this veiled form. Here, as in the tale of Er, the son of Armenius, he touches upon the question of freedom and necessity, both in relation to God and nature. For at first the universe is governed by the immediate providence of God,—this is the golden age,—but after a while the wheel is reversed, and man is left to himself. Like other theologians and philosophers, Plato relegates his explanation of the problem to a transcendental world; he speaks of what in modern language might be termed 'impossibilities in the nature of things,' hindering God from continuing immanent in the world. But there is some inconsistency; for the 'letting go' is spoken of as a divine act, and is at the same time attributed to the necessary imperfection of matter; there is also a numerical necessity for the successive births of souls. At first, man and the world retain their divine instincts, but gradually degenerate. As in the Book of Genesis, the first fall of man is succeeded by a second; the misery and wickedness of the world increase continually. The reason of this further decline is supposed to be the disorganisation of matter: the latent seeds of a former chaos are disengaged, and envelope all things. The condition of man becomes more and more miserable; he is perpetually waging an unequal warfare with the beasts. At length he obtains such a measure of education and help as is necessary for his existence. Though deprived of God's help, he is not left wholly destitute; he has received from Athene and Hephaestus a knowledge of the arts; other gods give him seeds and plants; and out of these human life is reconstructed. He now eats bread in the sweat of his brow, and has dominion over the animals, subjected to the conditions of his nature, and yet able to cope with them by divine help. Thus Plato may be said to represent in a figure—(1) the state of innocence; (2) the fall of man; (3) the still deeper decline into barbarism; (4) the restoration of man by the partial interference of God, and the natural growth of the arts and of civilised society. Two lesser features of this description should not pass unnoticed:—(1) the primitive men are supposed to be created out of the earth, and not after the ordinary manner of human generation—half the causes of moral evil are in this way removed; (2) the arts are attributed to a divine revelation: and so the greatest difficulty in the history of pre-historic man is solved. Though no one knew better than Plato that the introduction of the gods is not a reason, but an excuse for not giving a reason (Cratylus), yet, considering that more than two thousand years later mankind are still discussing these problems, we may be satisfied to find in Plato a statement of the difficulties which arise in conceiving the relation of man to God and nature, without expecting to obtain from him a solution of them. In such a tale, as in the Phaedrus, various aspects of the Ideas were doubtless indicated to Plato's own mind, as the corresponding theological problems are to us. The immanence of things in the Ideas, or the partial separation of them, and the self-motion of the supreme Idea, are probably the forms in which he would have interpreted his own parable.
The main value of the myth lies in the philosophical lessons that Plato conveys to us in this hidden way. Here, as in the story of Er, the son of Armenius, he addresses the issue of freedom and necessity, both concerning God and nature. Initially, the universe is under God's direct care—this is the golden age—but eventually, that changes, and humanity is left to its own devices. Like other theologians and philosophers, Plato places his explanation of the problem in a transcendental realm; he talks about what we might call 'impossibilities in the nature of things' that prevent God from remaining active in the world. However, there’s some inconsistency here; the 'letting go' is described as a divine act while also being attributed to the inherent imperfection of matter, and there is a necessary numerical sequence for the repetitive births of souls. At first, humanity and the world have divine instincts, but they slowly decline. Similar to the Book of Genesis, the first fall of man is followed by a second; the suffering and evil in the world keep increasing. This further decline is thought to be due to the disorganization of matter: the hidden remnants of a previous chaos emerge and engulf everything. Human conditions grow increasingly miserable; we are constantly in an unfair battle with animals. Eventually, humanity gains just enough education and aid necessary for survival. Although cut off from God's assistance, we are not left completely empty-handed; we have been given knowledge of the arts by Athene and Hephaestus, and other gods provide us with seeds and plants, allowing human life to be rebuilt. Now we toil for our bread and have dominion over animals, subject to our nature yet able to manage them with divine help. Thus, Plato can be seen as symbolizing—(1) the state of innocence; (2) the fall of man; (3) the even deeper descent into barbarism; (4) the restoration of humanity through the limited intervention of God, alongside the natural development of the arts and civilized society. Two smaller aspects of this description should not go unnoticed:—(1) primitive humans are said to be created from the earth, not through the usual means of human reproduction—this removes half the causes of moral evil; (2) the arts are attributed to divine revelation, solving the greatest difficulty in understanding prehistoric humanity. Although no one understood better than Plato that invoking the gods serves as an excuse instead of a reason (Cratylus), the fact that even over two thousand years later, humanity is still wrestling with these questions suggests we can find in Plato a reflection of the challenges in understanding the relationship between humanity, God, and nature, without expecting him to provide a solution. In such a tale, like in the Phaedrus, different aspects of the Ideas were likely pointed out to Plato's own understanding, just as the corresponding theological challenges are for us. The immanence of things within the Ideas, or their partial separation, and the self-motion of the supreme Idea are probably how he would have interpreted his own parable.
He touches upon another question of great interest—the consciousness of evil—what in the Jewish Scriptures is called 'eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.' At the end of the narrative, the Eleatic asks his companion whether this life of innocence, or that which men live at present, is the better of the two. He wants to distinguish between the mere animal life of innocence, the 'city of pigs,' as it is comically termed by Glaucon in the Republic, and the higher life of reason and philosophy. But as no one can determine the state of man in the world before the Fall, 'the question must remain unanswered.' Similar questions have occupied the minds of theologians in later ages; but they can hardly be said to have found an answer. Professor Campbell well observes, that the general spirit of the myth may be summed up in the words of the Lysis: 'If evil were to perish, should we hunger any more, or thirst any more, or have any similar sensations? Yet perhaps the question what will or will not be is a foolish one, for who can tell?' As in the Theaetetus, evil is supposed to continue,—here, as the consequence of a former state of the world, a sort of mephitic vapour exhaling from some ancient chaos,—there, as involved in the possibility of good, and incident to the mixed state of man.
He brings up another intriguing question—the awareness of evil—what the Jewish Scriptures refer to as 'eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.' By the end of the story, the Eleatic asks his friend whether this innocent life, or the kind of life people currently live, is better. He aims to differentiate between the simple animal existence of innocence, referred to humorously by Glaucon as the 'city of pigs' in the Republic, and the higher existence of reason and philosophy. However, since no one can determine what humanity's state was like before the Fall, 'the question must remain unanswered.' Similar questions have preoccupied theologians in later times, but they have rarely found a definitive answer. Professor Campbell aptly notes that the overall message of the myth can be summarized by the words of the Lysis: 'If evil were to vanish, would we still experience hunger, thirst, or similar feelings? Yet maybe asking what will or won't happen is a foolish question, for who can know?' As in the Theaetetus, evil is presumed to persist—here, as a result of a former condition of the world, a sort of toxic mist emerging from some ancient chaos—there, as part of the potential for good and tied to humanity's mixed condition.
Once more—and this is the point of connexion with the rest of the dialogue—the myth is intended to bring out the difference between the ideal and the actual state of man. In all ages of the world men have dreamed of a state of perfection, which has been, and is to be, but never is, and seems to disappear under the necessary conditions of human society. The uselessness, the danger, the true value of such political ideals have often been discussed; youth is too ready to believe in them; age to disparage them. Plato's 'prudens quaestio' respecting the comparative happiness of men in this and in a former cycle of existence is intended to elicit this contrast between the golden age and 'the life under Zeus' which is our own. To confuse the divine and human, or hastily apply one to the other, is a 'tremendous error.' Of the ideal or divine government of the world we can form no true or adequate conception; and this our mixed state of life, in which we are partly left to ourselves, but not wholly deserted by the gods, may contain some higher elements of good and knowledge than could have existed in the days of innocence under the rule of Cronos. So we may venture slightly to enlarge a Platonic thought which admits of a further application to Christian theology. Here are suggested also the distinctions between God causing and permitting evil, and between his more and less immediate government of the world.
Once again—and this is where it connects with the rest of the dialogue—the myth is meant to highlight the difference between the ideal and the actual state of humanity. Throughout history, people have envisioned a perfect state, which has been, is, and will be, but never actually exists, and seems to fade away under the necessary conditions of human society. The uselessness, danger, and true value of such political ideals have often been debated; youth is quick to believe in them, while older people are quick to dismiss them. Plato's 'prudens quaestio' about the comparative happiness of people in this life versus a previous existence is meant to draw out this contrast between the golden age and "the life under Zeus," which is our current reality. Mixing up the divine and human, or rushing to apply one to the other, is a "huge mistake." We cannot form a true or complete understanding of the ideal or divine governance of the world; and this mixed state of life, where we are partly left to our own devices but not completely abandoned by the gods, may hold higher elements of good and knowledge than could have been present in the days of innocence under Cronos. Thus, we can slightly expand on a Platonic idea that has further relevance to Christian theology. It also suggests distinctions between God causing and allowing evil, and between his more and less direct governance of the world.
II. The dialectical interest of the Statesman seems to contend in Plato's mind with the political; the dialogue might have been designated by two equally descriptive titles—either the 'Statesman,' or 'Concerning Method.' Dialectic, which in the earlier writings of Plato is a revival of the Socratic question and answer applied to definition, is now occupied with classification; there is nothing in which he takes greater delight than in processes of division (compare Phaedr.); he pursues them to a length out of proportion to his main subject, and appears to value them as a dialectical exercise, and for their own sake. A poetical vision of some order or hierarchy of ideas or sciences has already been floating before us in the Symposium and the Republic. And in the Phaedrus this aspect of dialectic is further sketched out, and the art of rhetoric is based on the division of the characters of mankind into their several classes. The same love of divisions is apparent in the Gorgias. But in a well-known passage of the Philebus occurs the first criticism on the nature of classification. There we are exhorted not to fall into the common error of passing from unity to infinity, but to find the intermediate classes; and we are reminded that in any process of generalization, there may be more than one class to which individuals may be referred, and that we must carry on the process of division until we have arrived at the infima species.
II. The dialectical interest of the Statesman seems to clash in Plato's mind with the political; the dialogue could have easily been titled either 'Statesman' or 'About Method.' Dialectic, which in Plato's earlier writings revives the Socratic question-and-answer technique for defining concepts, is now focused on classification. There's nothing he enjoys more than processes of division (see Phaedr.); he explores them in detail that's disproportionate to his main topic, seeming to value them as a dialectical exercise and for their own sake. A poetic vision of some order or hierarchy of ideas or sciences has already been present in the Symposium and the Republic. In the Phaedrus, this aspect of dialectic is further developed, and the art of rhetoric is built upon classifying human characteristics into various categories. This same appreciation for divisions is clear in the Gorgias. However, a well-known passage in the Philebus introduces the first critique regarding the nature of classification. It warns us not to fall into the common mistake of jumping from unity to infinity, but to identify the intermediate classes; it reminds us that in any process of generalization, there can be multiple classes to which individuals may belong, and that we must continue the process of division until we reach the lowest species.
These precepts are not forgotten, either in the Sophist or in the Statesman. The Sophist contains four examples of division, carried on by regular steps, until in four different lines of descent we detect the Sophist. In the Statesman the king or statesman is discovered by a similar process; and we have a summary, probably made for the first time, of possessions appropriated by the labour of man, which are distributed into seven classes. We are warned against preferring the shorter to the longer method;—if we divide in the middle, we are most likely to light upon species; at the same time, the important remark is made, that 'a part is not to be confounded with a class.' Having discovered the genus under which the king falls, we proceed to distinguish him from the collateral species. To assist our imagination in making this separation, we require an example. The higher ideas, of which we have a dreamy knowledge, can only be represented by images taken from the external world. But, first of all, the nature of example is explained by an example. The child is taught to read by comparing the letters in words which he knows with the same letters in unknown combinations; and this is the sort of process which we are about to attempt. As a parallel to the king we select the worker in wool, and compare the art of weaving with the royal science, trying to separate either of them from the inferior classes to which they are akin. This has the incidental advantage, that weaving and the web furnish us with a figure of speech, which we can afterwards transfer to the State.
These principles aren't forgotten, either in the Sophist or in the Statesman. The Sophist gives four examples of categorization, moving step by step until we identify the Sophist through four distinct lines of descent. In the Statesman, we find the king or statesman through a similar method, along with a summary—likely the first of its kind—of the possessions gained through human labor, categorized into seven classes. We're advised not to favor the shorter method over the longer one; if we divide in the middle, we're more likely to uncover specific species. It's also important to note that "a part should not be confused with a class." After identifying the category that includes the king, we move on to differentiate him from related species. To help clarify this distinction, we need an example. The higher concepts we vaguely understand can only be illustrated by images from the external world. First, the nature of an example is explained through an example. A child learns to read by comparing the letters in familiar words with those in unfamiliar combinations; this is the type of process we're about to undertake. To parallel the king, we choose the wool worker and compare the art of weaving to the royal science, attempting to separate either from the lower classes they're related to. This has the added benefit of providing a metaphor involving weaving and the web, which we can later apply to the State.
There are two uses of examples or images—in the first place, they suggest thoughts—secondly, they give them a distinct form. In the infancy of philosophy, as in childhood, the language of pictures is natural to man: truth in the abstract is hardly won, and only by use familiarized to the mind. Examples are akin to analogies, and have a reflex influence on thought; they people the vacant mind, and may often originate new directions of enquiry. Plato seems to be conscious of the suggestiveness of imagery; the general analogy of the arts is constantly employed by him as well as the comparison of particular arts—weaving, the refining of gold, the learning to read, music, statuary, painting, medicine, the art of the pilot—all of which occur in this dialogue alone: though he is also aware that 'comparisons are slippery things,' and may often give a false clearness to ideas. We shall find, in the Philebus, a division of sciences into practical and speculative, and into more or less speculative: here we have the idea of master-arts, or sciences which control inferior ones. Besides the supreme science of dialectic, 'which will forget us, if we forget her,' another master-science for the first time appears in view—the science of government, which fixes the limits of all the rest. This conception of the political or royal science as, from another point of view, the science of sciences, which holds sway over the rest, is not originally found in Aristotle, but in Plato.
There are two ways to use examples or images—first, they suggest thoughts; second, they give those thoughts a clear shape. In the early stages of philosophy, just like in childhood, using images feels natural to people: understanding abstract truth is challenging and only becomes familiar through experience. Examples are like analogies and can influence our thinking; they fill an empty mind and can spark new lines of inquiry. Plato seems aware of how powerful imagery can be; he frequently uses general comparisons from the arts as well as specific ones—like weaving, gold refining, learning to read, music, sculpture, painting, medicine, and navigation—all of which appear in this dialogue alone. However, he also recognizes that "comparisons can be tricky" and may sometimes obscure ideas. In the Philebus, we see a division of sciences into practical and theoretical, and into more or less theoretical: this introduces the idea of master-arts or sciences that govern lesser ones. In addition to the highest science of dialectic, "which will forget us if we forget it," we also encounter a new master-science—the science of government, which sets the boundaries for all others. This idea of political or royal science as, from another perspective, the "science of sciences" that rules over the rest, originates not in Aristotle but with Plato.
The doctrine that virtue and art are in a mean, which is familiarized to us by the study of the Nicomachean Ethics, is also first distinctly asserted in the Statesman of Plato. The too much and the too little are in restless motion: they must be fixed by a mean, which is also a standard external to them. The art of measuring or finding a mean between excess and defect, like the principle of division in the Phaedrus, receives a particular application to the art of discourse. The excessive length of a discourse may be blamed; but who can say what is excess, unless he is furnished with a measure or standard? Measure is the life of the arts, and may some day be discovered to be the single ultimate principle in which all the sciences are contained. Other forms of thought may be noted—the distinction between causal and co-operative arts, which may be compared with the distinction between primary and co-operative causes in the Timaeus; or between cause and condition in the Phaedo; the passing mention of economical science; the opposition of rest and motion, which is found in all nature; the general conception of two great arts of composition and division, in which are contained weaving, politics, dialectic; and in connexion with the conception of a mean, the two arts of measuring.
The idea that virtue and art exist in a balance, which we understand from studying the Nicomachean Ethics, is also clearly outlined in Plato's Statesman. Both excess and deficiency are in constant flux; they need to be stabilized by a mean, which serves as an external standard. The skill of measuring or finding this balance between too much and too little, similar to the principle of division discussed in the Phaedrus, specifically applies to the art of discourse. We might criticize a discourse for being overly long, but who can determine what constitutes excess without having a clear measure or standard? Measure is essential to the arts, and it may one day be revealed as the single fundamental principle that encompasses all sciences. Other types of reasoning can be observed here, such as the distinction between causal and co-operative arts, akin to the separation of primary and co-operative causes in the Timaeus, or the difference between cause and condition in the Phaedo; the brief reference to economic science; the juxtaposition of rest and motion, which is present throughout nature; and the overarching idea of two major arts, composition and division, which include weaving, politics, and dialectic; along with the notion of a mean, the two arts of measurement are significant.
In the Theaetetus, Plato remarks that precision in the use of terms, though sometimes pedantic, is sometimes necessary. Here he makes the opposite reflection, that there may be a philosophical disregard of words. The evil of mere verbal oppositions, the requirement of an impossible accuracy in the use of terms, the error of supposing that philosophy was to be found in language, the danger of word-catching, have frequently been discussed by him in the previous dialogues, but nowhere has the spirit of modern inductive philosophy been more happily indicated than in the words of the Statesman:—'If you think more about things, and less about words, you will be richer in wisdom as you grow older.' A similar spirit is discernible in the remarkable expressions, 'the long and difficult language of facts;' and 'the interrogation of every nature, in order to obtain the particular contribution of each to the store of knowledge.' Who has described 'the feeble intelligence of all things; given by metaphysics better than the Eleatic Stranger in the words—'The higher ideas can hardly be set forth except through the medium of examples; every man seems to know all things in a kind of dream, and then again nothing when he is awake?' Or where is the value of metaphysical pursuits more truly expressed than in the words,—'The greatest and noblest things have no outward image of themselves visible to man: therefore we should learn to give a rational account of them?'
In the Theaetetus, Plato notes that being precise with terms, although sometimes overly technical, is often necessary. He also points out that there can be a philosophical disregard for words. The issue of merely arguing about words, the demand for impossible precision in terminology, the mistake of believing philosophy resides solely in language, and the risk of getting caught up in wordplay have been frequently addressed by him in earlier dialogues. However, nowhere has the spirit of modern inductive philosophy been expressed better than in the words of the Statesman: “If you focus more on things and less on words, you’ll gain wisdom as you age.” A similar spirit can be seen in the striking phrases, “the long and difficult language of facts,” and “the questioning of every nature to uncover what each contributes to our knowledge.” Who has described “the weak understanding of all things” as given by metaphysics better than the Eleatic Stranger when he said, “The higher ideas can only be properly expressed through examples; everyone seems to know everything in a sort of dream, yet knows nothing when fully awake?” Or where is the value of metaphysical pursuits expressed more accurately than in the phrase, “The greatest and most noble things have no visible outward form; therefore, we should learn to explain them rationally?”
III. The political aspects of the dialogue are closely connected with the dialectical. As in the Cratylus, the legislator has 'the dialectician standing on his right hand;' so in the Statesman, the king or statesman is the dialectician, who, although he may be in a private station, is still a king. Whether he has the power or not, is a mere accident; or rather he has the power, for what ought to be is ('Was ist vernunftig, das ist wirklich'); and he ought to be and is the true governor of mankind. There is a reflection in this idealism of the Socratic 'Virtue is knowledge;' and, without idealism, we may remark that knowledge is a great part of power. Plato does not trouble himself to construct a machinery by which 'philosophers shall be made kings,' as in the Republic: he merely holds up the ideal, and affirms that in some sense science is really supreme over human life.
III. The political aspects of the dialogue are closely tied to the dialectical. Just like in the Cratylus, the legislator has 'the dialectician by his side;' similarly, in the Statesman, the king or statesman is the dialectician, who, even if in a private role, is still a king. Whether he actually has the power or not is just a matter of circumstance; or rather, he does have the power, because what ought to be is ('What is rational is real'); and he is meant to be and is the true leader of humanity. This reflects the Socratic idea that 'Virtue is knowledge;' and without idealism, we can observe that knowledge is a significant part of power. Plato doesn’t bother to create a system where 'philosophers become kings,' as he does in the Republic; he simply presents the ideal and asserts that, in a way, knowledge is truly superior to human existence.
He is struck by the observation 'quam parva sapientia regitur mundus,' and is touched with a feeling of the ills which afflict states. The condition of Megara before and during the Peloponnesian War, of Athens under the Thirty and afterwards, of Syracuse and the other Sicilian cities in their alternations of democratic excess and tyranny, might naturally suggest such reflections. Some states he sees already shipwrecked, others foundering for want of a pilot; and he wonders not at their destruction, but at their endurance. For they ought to have perished long ago, if they had depended on the wisdom of their rulers. The mingled pathos and satire of this remark is characteristic of Plato's later style.
He is struck by the saying "the world is governed by very little wisdom," and he feels a sense of the problems that afflict states. The situation in Megara before and during the Peloponnesian War, in Athens under the Thirty and afterward, in Syracuse, and in other Sicilian cities with their swings between democratic excess and tyranny, naturally sparks such thoughts. He sees some states already wrecked, others sinking for lack of a leader; and he is not surprised by their downfall, but rather by their survival. They should have gone under a long time ago if they had relied on the wisdom of their rulers. The mixed sadness and irony in this comment is typical of Plato's later style.
The king is the personification of political science. And yet he is something more than this,—the perfectly good and wise tyrant of the Laws, whose will is better than any law. He is the special providence who is always interfering with and regulating all things. Such a conception has sometimes been entertained by modern theologians, and by Plato himself, of the Supreme Being. But whether applied to Divine or to human governors the conception is faulty for two reasons, neither of which are noticed by Plato:—first, because all good government supposes a degree of co-operation in the ruler and his subjects,—an 'education in politics' as well as in moral virtue; secondly, because government, whether Divine or human, implies that the subject has a previous knowledge of the rules under which he is living. There is a fallacy, too, in comparing unchangeable laws with a personal governor. For the law need not necessarily be an 'ignorant and brutal tyrant,' but gentle and humane, capable of being altered in the spirit of the legislator, and of being administered so as to meet the cases of individuals. Not only in fact, but in idea, both elements must remain—the fixed law and the living will; the written word and the spirit; the principles of obligation and of freedom; and their applications whether made by law or equity in particular cases.
The king represents the essence of political theory. Yet, he is even more than that—the ideal good and wise tyrant of the laws, whose intentions surpass any law. He acts as a special providence, constantly intervening and managing everything. Some modern theologians, as well as Plato, have held this view of the Supreme Being. However, whether referring to divine or human rulers, this idea is flawed for two reasons that Plato overlooks: first, all effective governance requires a level of cooperation between the ruler and the ruled—a form of 'education in politics' as well as in moral virtue; second, governance, whether divine or human, assumes that the subjects have prior knowledge of the rules they live under. There is also a misconception in comparing unchangeable laws to a personal ruler. The law doesn’t have to be an 'ignorant and brutal tyrant'; it can be kind and just, capable of being adjusted to fit the spirit of the legislator, and applied in ways that consider individual circumstances. In both reality and concept, both elements must coexist—the established law and the living will; the written law and its essence; the principles of obligation and freedom; and their applications, whether enacted through law or equity in specific situations.
There are two sides from which positive laws may be attacked:—either from the side of nature, which rises up and rebels against them in the spirit of Callicles in the Gorgias; or from the side of idealism, which attempts to soar above them,—and this is the spirit of Plato in the Statesman. But he soon falls, like Icarus, and is content to walk instead of flying; that is, to accommodate himself to the actual state of human things. Mankind have long been in despair of finding the true ruler; and therefore are ready to acquiesce in any of the five or six received forms of government as better than none. And the best thing which they can do (though only the second best in reality), is to reduce the ideal state to the conditions of actual life. Thus in the Statesman, as in the Laws, we have three forms of government, which we may venture to term, (1) the ideal, (2) the practical, (3) the sophistical—what ought to be, what might be, what is. And thus Plato seems to stumble, almost by accident, on the notion of a constitutional monarchy, or of a monarchy ruling by laws.
There are two ways to criticize positive laws: either from the perspective of nature, which rises up and rebels against them, like Callicles in the Gorgias; or from the perspective of idealism, which tries to rise above them—this reflects Plato's thinking in the Statesman. However, he quickly falls, like Icarus, and settles for walking instead of flying; that is, he adjusts to the actual state of human affairs. Humanity has long lost hope in finding the true ruler and is therefore ready to accept any of the five or six recognized forms of government as better than nothing. The best thing they can do (even if it’s really only the second best) is to adapt the ideal state to the realities of life. Thus, in the Statesman, as well as in the Laws, we see three forms of government that we can call (1) the ideal, (2) the practical, (3) the sophistical—what ought to be, what might be, what is. In this way, Plato seems to stumble, almost by chance, upon the concept of a constitutional monarchy or a monarchy that rules by laws.
The divine foundations of a State are to be laid deep in education (Republic), and at the same time some little violence may be used in exterminating natures which are incapable of education (compare Laws). Plato is strongly of opinion that the legislator, like the physician, may do men good against their will (compare Gorgias). The human bonds of states are formed by the inter-marriage of dispositions adapted to supply the defects of each other. As in the Republic, Plato has observed that there are opposite natures in the world, the strong and the gentle, the courageous and the temperate, which, borrowing an expression derived from the image of weaving, he calls the warp and the woof of human society. To interlace these is the crowning achievement of political science. In the Protagoras, Socrates was maintaining that there was only one virtue, and not many: now Plato is inclined to think that there are not only parallel, but opposite virtues, and seems to see a similar opposition pervading all art and nature. But he is satisfied with laying down the principle, and does not inform us by what further steps the union of opposites is to be effected.
The foundational principles of a State should be deeply rooted in education (Republic), and at the same time, some degree of force might be necessary to eliminate individuals who are incapable of being educated (compare Laws). Plato firmly believes that a legislator, like a doctor, can help people even if they resist it (compare Gorgias). The social bonds of states are formed through the intermarriage of traits that complement each other's weaknesses. As noted in the Republic, Plato recognizes that there are opposing natures in the world, such as the strong and the gentle, the brave and the moderate, which he refers to as the warp and woof of human society, using a metaphor from weaving. Achieving the integration of these opposites is the ultimate goal of political science. In the Protagoras, Socrates argues that there is only one virtue, not many; now, Plato leans toward the idea that there are not just parallel virtues but also opposing ones, suggesting that this opposition exists throughout all art and nature. However, he only establishes this principle and does not explain how the union of opposites should be achieved.
In the loose framework of a single dialogue Plato has thus combined two distinct subjects—politics and method. Yet they are not so far apart as they appear: in his own mind there was a secret link of connexion between them. For the philosopher or dialectician is also the only true king or statesman. In the execution of his plan Plato has invented or distinguished several important forms of thought, and made incidentally many valuable remarks. Questions of interest both in ancient and modern politics also arise in the course of the dialogue, which may with advantage be further considered by us:—
In the loose framework of a single dialogue, Plato has combined two distinct topics—politics and method. However, they’re not as different as they seem: in his own mind, there was a subtle connection between them. The philosopher or dialectician is also the only genuine king or statesman. In executing his plan, Plato has created or identified several important ways of thinking and made several valuable observations along the way. Issues of interest in both ancient and modern politics also come up during the dialogue, which we might want to explore further:—
a. The imaginary ruler, whether God or man, is above the law, and is a law to himself and to others. Among the Greeks as among the Jews, law was a sacred name, the gift of God, the bond of states. But in the Statesman of Plato, as in the New Testament, the word has also become the symbol of an imperfect good, which is almost an evil. The law sacrifices the individual to the universal, and is the tyranny of the many over the few (compare Republic). It has fixed rules which are the props of order, and will not swerve or bend in extreme cases. It is the beginning of political society, but there is something higher—an intelligent ruler, whether God or man, who is able to adapt himself to the endless varieties of circumstances. Plato is fond of picturing the advantages which would result from the union of the tyrant who has power with the legislator who has wisdom: he regards this as the best and speediest way of reforming mankind. But institutions cannot thus be artificially created, nor can the external authority of a ruler impose laws for which a nation is unprepared. The greatest power, the highest wisdom, can only proceed one or two steps in advance of public opinion. In all stages of civilization human nature, after all our efforts, remains intractable,—not like clay in the hands of the potter, or marble under the chisel of the sculptor. Great changes occur in the history of nations, but they are brought about slowly, like the changes in the frame of nature, upon which the puny arm of man hardly makes an impression. And, speaking generally, the slowest growths, both in nature and in politics, are the most permanent.
a. The imaginary ruler, whether God or a person, is above the law and makes the law for himself and others. Among the Greeks and the Jews, the law was a sacred concept, a gift from God, the glue holding states together. However, in Plato's Statesman and in the New Testament, the term has also come to represent an imperfect good that borders on evil. The law prioritizes the collective over the individual and represents the tyranny of the majority over the minority (see Republic). It has established rules that uphold order and do not bend, even in extreme situations. While it marks the beginning of political society, there's something greater—a wise ruler, whether divine or human, who can adjust to the endless variety of circumstances. Plato often illustrates the benefits of combining a powerful tyrant with a wise legislator, viewing this as the fastest way to improve humanity. Yet, institutions cannot be created artificially, nor can a ruler's external authority impose laws on a nation that isn't ready. True power and wisdom can only move slightly ahead of public opinion. Throughout all stages of civilization, human nature, despite our efforts, remains stubborn—not like clay in a potter's hands or marble under a sculptor's chisel. Significant changes in a nation's history occur gradually, like the slow changes in nature, where humanity's feeble efforts hardly make a mark. Generally speaking, the slowest developments, both in nature and in governance, tend to be the most enduring.
b. Whether the best form of the ideal is a person or a law may fairly be doubted. The former is more akin to us: it clothes itself in poetry and art, and appeals to reason more in the form of feeling: in the latter there is less danger of allowing ourselves to be deluded by a figure of speech. The ideal of the Greek state found an expression in the deification of law: the ancient Stoic spoke of a wise man perfect in virtue, who was fancifully said to be a king; but neither they nor Plato had arrived at the conception of a person who was also a law. Nor is it easy for the Christian to think of God as wisdom, truth, holiness, and also as the wise, true, and holy one. He is always wanting to break through the abstraction and interrupt the law, in order that he may present to himself the more familiar image of a divine friend. While the impersonal has too slender a hold upon the affections to be made the basis of religion, the conception of a person on the other hand tends to degenerate into a new kind of idolatry. Neither criticism nor experience allows us to suppose that there are interferences with the laws of nature; the idea is inconceivable to us and at variance with facts. The philosopher or theologian who could realize to mankind that a person is a law, that the higher rule has no exception, that goodness, like knowledge, is also power, would breathe a new religious life into the world.
b. Whether the best form of the ideal is a person or a law is certainly debatable. The former is more relatable to us: it expresses itself through poetry and art, and connects with reason more through emotion. In the latter, there’s less risk of being misled by figurative language. The ideal of the Greek state was embodied in the glorification of law: the ancient Stoics spoke of a wise man who was perfect in virtue, and fancifully called him a king; but neither they nor Plato had reached the idea of a person who was also a law. It’s also challenging for Christians to think of God as wisdom, truth, and holiness, while also viewing Him as the wise, true, and holy one. There’s always a desire to break away from the abstract and interrupt the law, so they can have a more familiar image of a divine friend. While the impersonal isn’t strong enough to form the foundation of religion, the idea of a person tends to slip into a new form of idolatry. Neither criticism nor experience supports the notion that there are disruptions in the laws of nature; this concept is unimaginable to us and contradicts reality. The philosopher or theologian who could help people understand that a person is a law, that the higher rule has no exceptions, and that goodness, like knowledge, is also power, would bring new religious life to the world.
c. Besides the imaginary rule of a philosopher or a God, the actual forms of government have to be considered. In the infancy of political science, men naturally ask whether the rule of the many or of the few is to be preferred. If by 'the few' we mean 'the good' and by 'the many,' 'the bad,' there can be but one reply: 'The rule of one good man is better than the rule of all the rest, if they are bad.' For, as Heracleitus says, 'One is ten thousand if he be the best.' If, however, we mean by the rule of the few the rule of a class neither better nor worse than other classes, not devoid of a feeling of right, but guided mostly by a sense of their own interests, and by the rule of the many the rule of all classes, similarly under the influence of mixed motives, no one would hesitate to answer—'The rule of all rather than one, because all classes are more likely to take care of all than one of another; and the government has greater power and stability when resting on a wider basis.' Both in ancient and modern times the best balanced form of government has been held to be the best; and yet it should not be so nicely balanced as to make action and movement impossible.
c. In addition to the ideal rule of a philosopher or a deity, we need to consider the real forms of government. At the start of political science, people naturally wondered whether the rule of the many or the few is better. If by 'the few' we mean 'the good' and by 'the many,' 'the bad,' then the answer is clear: 'The rule of one good person is better than the rule of all the others if they are bad.' As Heracleitus said, 'One is ten thousand if he is the best.' On the other hand, if we think of the rule of the few as that of a class that is neither better nor worse than others, not completely lacking in a sense of justice but mostly looking out for their own interests, and by the rule of the many as that of all classes similarly influenced by mixed motivations, then no one would hesitate to say—'The rule of all is better than that of one, because all classes are more likely to look after everyone than one alone; and the government is more powerful and stable when it has a broader foundation.' Throughout history, both in ancient and modern times, the best-structured form of government has been viewed as the most effective; however, it shouldn't be so perfectly balanced that it hinders action and progress.
The statesman who builds his hope upon the aristocracy, upon the middle classes, upon the people, will probably, if he have sufficient experience of them, conclude that all classes are much alike, and that one is as good as another, and that the liberties of no class are safe in the hands of the rest. The higher ranks have the advantage in education and manners, the middle and lower in industry and self-denial; in every class, to a certain extent, a natural sense of right prevails, sometimes communicated from the lower to the higher, sometimes from the higher to the lower, which is too strong for class interests. There have been crises in the history of nations, as at the time of the Crusades or the Reformation, or the French Revolution, when the same inspiration has taken hold of whole peoples, and permanently raised the sense of freedom and justice among mankind.
The politician who bases his hopes on the upper class, the middle class, and the people will likely, if he has enough experience with them, realize that all classes are quite similar, that one is just as good as another, and that the freedoms of no class are secure in the hands of the others. The upper classes have the edge in education and social skills, while the middle and lower classes excel in hard work and self-discipline; a natural sense of what’s right exists in every class to some degree, sometimes flowing from the lower to the higher, and sometimes the other way around, which is often stronger than class interests. There have been pivotal moments in the history of nations, such as during the Crusades, the Reformation, or the French Revolution, when a common inspiration gripped entire populations and significantly elevated the collective understanding of freedom and justice.
But even supposing the different classes of a nation, when viewed impartially, to be on a level with each other in moral virtue, there remain two considerations of opposite kinds which enter into the problem of government. Admitting of course that the upper and lower classes are equal in the eye of God and of the law, yet the one may be by nature fitted to govern and the other to be governed. A ruling caste does not soon altogether lose the governing qualities, nor a subject class easily acquire them. Hence the phenomenon so often observed in the old Greek revolutions, and not without parallel in modern times, that the leaders of the democracy have been themselves of aristocratic origin. The people are expecting to be governed by representatives of their own, but the true man of the people either never appears, or is quickly altered by circumstances. Their real wishes hardly make themselves felt, although their lower interests and prejudices may sometimes be flattered and yielded to for the sake of ulterior objects by those who have political power. They will often learn by experience that the democracy has become a plutocracy. The influence of wealth, though not the enjoyment of it, has become diffused among the poor as well as among the rich; and society, instead of being safer, is more at the mercy of the tyrant, who, when things are at the worst, obtains a guard—that is, an army—and announces himself as the saviour.
But even if we assume that the different classes in a nation are equal in moral virtue when viewed impartially, there are still two contrasting factors to consider in the problem of government. While we acknowledge that the upper and lower classes are equal in the eyes of God and the law, one class may naturally be suited to govern while the other is meant to be governed. A ruling class doesn’t easily lose its governing traits, nor does a subject class quickly gain them. This explains the common observation in ancient Greek revolutions—and even mirrored in modern times—that leaders of democracies often come from aristocratic backgrounds. The people expect to be governed by representatives like themselves, but the true representatives of the people either never emerge or are quickly changed by circumstances. Their genuine desires usually go unheard, even though their lower interests and biases might occasionally be pandered to by those in power for ulterior motives. They often discover through experience that democracy has turned into a plutocracy. The influence of wealth, though not access to it, has spread among both the poor and the rich; and society, rather than becoming safer, is more vulnerable to tyrants who, when times are dire, rally an army and declare themselves as the savior.
The other consideration is of an opposite kind. Admitting that a few wise men are likely to be better governors than the unwise many, yet it is not in their power to fashion an entire people according to their behest. When with the best intentions the benevolent despot begins his regime, he finds the world hard to move. A succession of good kings has at the end of a century left the people an inert and unchanged mass. The Roman world was not permanently improved by the hundred years of Hadrian and the Antonines. The kings of Spain during the last century were at least equal to any contemporary sovereigns in virtue and ability. In certain states of the world the means are wanting to render a benevolent power effectual. These means are not a mere external organisation of posts or telegraphs, hardly the introduction of new laws or modes of industry. A change must be made in the spirit of a people as well as in their externals. The ancient legislator did not really take a blank tablet and inscribe upon it the rules which reflection and experience had taught him to be for a nation's interest; no one would have obeyed him if he had. But he took the customs which he found already existing in a half-civilised state of society: these he reduced to form and inscribed on pillars; he defined what had before been undefined, and gave certainty to what was uncertain. No legislation ever sprang, like Athene, in full power out of the head either of God or man.
The other consideration is quite different. Even though a few wise individuals are probably better leaders than the unwise majority, they can't shape an entire population to fit their will. When a well-meaning despot begins his reign, he discovers that change is hard to achieve. A series of good kings over the span of a century has left the people as an unresponsive and unchanged mass. The Roman world wasn’t permanently improved by the century of Hadrian and the Antonines. The kings of Spain in the last century were at least as virtuous and capable as any other contemporary rulers. In certain situations around the world, the resources needed to make a benevolent authority effective are lacking. These resources aren't just about creating a network of posts or telegraphs, nor merely about introducing new laws or ways of doing business. A transformation must occur in the spirit of the people as well as in their external circumstances. The ancient lawgiver didn’t start with a blank slate and write down the rules that reflection and experience taught him were in the nation's best interest; no one would have followed him if he had. Instead, he took the customs that were already present in a semi-civilized society: he organized these customs into a coherent form and inscribed them on stone pillars; he clarified what had previously been vague and brought certainty to what had been uncertain. No legislation has ever emerged, like Athena, fully formed from the minds of either God or man.
Plato and Aristotle are sensible of the difficulty of combining the wisdom of the few with the power of the many. According to Plato, he is a physician who has the knowledge of a physician, and he is a king who has the knowledge of a king. But how the king, one or more, is to obtain the required power, is hardly at all considered by him. He presents the idea of a perfect government, but except the regulation for mixing different tempers in marriage, he never makes any provision for the attainment of it. Aristotle, casting aside ideals, would place the government in a middle class of citizens, sufficiently numerous for stability, without admitting the populace; and such appears to have been the constitution which actually prevailed for a short time at Athens—the rule of the Five Thousand—characterized by Thucydides as the best government of Athens which he had known. It may however be doubted how far, either in a Greek or modern state, such a limitation is practicable or desirable; for those who are left outside the pale will always be dangerous to those who are within, while on the other hand the leaven of the mob can hardly affect the representation of a great country. There is reason for the argument in favour of a property qualification; there is reason also in the arguments of those who would include all and so exhaust the political situation.
Plato and Aristotle recognize the challenge of merging the wisdom of the few with the power of the many. According to Plato, he is a doctor who has the knowledge of a doctor, and he is a ruler who has the knowledge of a ruler. However, he hardly considers how the ruler—whether one or more—can gain the necessary power. He presents the concept of an ideal government, but aside from the regulation for mixing different personalities in marriage, he does not make any provisions for achieving it. Aristotle, putting aside ideals, would position the government in a middle class of citizens, large enough for stability, without including the masses; this seems to reflect the system that briefly existed in Athens—the rule of the Five Thousand—described by Thucydides as the best government of Athens he had known. However, it can be questioned how practical or desirable such a limitation is, whether in a Greek or modern state; those excluded will always pose a threat to those included, while at the same time, the influence of the mob can hardly impact the governance of a large country. There is justification for the argument in favor of a property qualification; there is also merit in the arguments of those who would include everyone and thus deplete the political situation.
The true answer to the question is relative to the circumstances of nations. How can we get the greatest intelligence combined with the greatest power? The ancient legislator would have found this question more easy than we do. For he would have required that all persons who had a share of government should have received their education from the state and have borne her burdens, and should have served in her fleets and armies. But though we sometimes hear the cry that we must 'educate the masses, for they are our masters,' who would listen to a proposal that the franchise should be confined to the educated or to those who fulfil political duties? Then again, we know that the masses are not our masters, and that they are more likely to become so if we educate them. In modern politics so many interests have to be consulted that we are compelled to do, not what is best, but what is possible.
The real answer to the question depends on the situations of different nations. How can we achieve the best intelligence along with the greatest power? The ancient lawgiver would have found this question easier than we do today. He would have insisted that everyone involved in government receive their education from the state, share in its responsibilities, and serve in its fleets and armies. However, while we sometimes hear the call to 'educate the masses, for they are our masters,' who would actually agree to limit voting rights to educated individuals or those who fulfill civic duties? Additionally, we know that the masses aren’t our masters, and they are more likely to become so if we educate them. In modern politics, there are so many interests to consider that we often end up doing not what is best, but what is achievable.
d. Law is the first principle of society, but it cannot supply all the wants of society, and may easily cause more evils than it cures. Plato is aware of the imperfection of law in failing to meet the varieties of circumstances: he is also aware that human life would be intolerable if every detail of it were placed under legal regulation. It may be a great evil that physicians should kill their patients or captains cast away their ships, but it would be a far greater evil if each particular in the practice of medicine or seamanship were regulated by law. Much has been said in modern times about the duty of leaving men to themselves, which is supposed to be the best way of taking care of them. The question is often asked, What are the limits of legislation in relation to morals? And the answer is to the same effect, that morals must take care of themselves. There is a one-sided truth in these answers, if they are regarded as condemnations of the interference with commerce in the last century or of clerical persecution in the Middle Ages. But 'laissez-faire' is not the best but only the second best. What the best is, Plato does not attempt to determine; he only contrasts the imperfection of law with the wisdom of the perfect ruler.
d. Law is the foundation of society, but it can't fulfill all its needs, and it can often create more problems than it solves. Plato understands that laws are imperfect and can’t account for the varied situations people face. He also knows that human life would be unbearable if every little detail were governed by law. While it’s clearly wrong for doctors to harm their patients or for captains to abandon their ships, it would be an even greater injustice if every aspect of medicine or navigation were controlled by legal regulations. A lot has been discussed lately about the importance of letting people manage their own lives, which is thought to be the best way to care for them. The common question is, what are the limits of laws when it comes to morality? The typical answer suggests that morality should be self-regulating. There's some truth in these responses, especially when criticizing past market interference or religious persecution. But 'laissez-faire' isn’t the ideal; it’s just the second-best option. Plato doesn’t define what the best is; he merely contrasts the shortcomings of law with the wisdom of an ideal ruler.
Laws should be just, but they must also be certain, and we are obliged to sacrifice something of their justice to their certainty. Suppose a wise and good judge, who paying little or no regard to the law, attempted to decide with perfect justice the cases that were brought before him. To the uneducated person he would appear to be the ideal of a judge. Such justice has been often exercised in primitive times, or at the present day among eastern rulers. But in the first place it depends entirely on the personal character of the judge. He may be honest, but there is no check upon his dishonesty, and his opinion can only be overruled, not by any principle of law, but by the opinion of another judging like himself without law. In the second place, even if he be ever so honest, his mode of deciding questions would introduce an element of uncertainty into human life; no one would know beforehand what would happen to him, or would seek to conform in his conduct to any rule of law. For the compact which the law makes with men, that they shall be protected if they observe the law in their dealings with one another, would have to be substituted another principle of a more general character, that they shall be protected by the law if they act rightly in their dealings with one another. The complexity of human actions and also the uncertainty of their effects would be increased tenfold. For one of the principal advantages of law is not merely that it enforces honesty, but that it makes men act in the same way, and requires them to produce the same evidence of their acts. Too many laws may be the sign of a corrupt and overcivilized state of society, too few are the sign of an uncivilized one; as soon as commerce begins to grow, men make themselves customs which have the validity of laws. Even equity, which is the exception to the law, conforms to fixed rules and lies for the most part within the limits of previous decisions.
Laws should be fair, but they also need to be certain, and we have to give up some of their fairness for the sake of certainty. Imagine a wise and good judge who pays little or no attention to the law and tries to decide every case with complete fairness. To someone not well-informed, he might seem like the perfect judge. This kind of fairness has often been seen in ancient times or even today among some eastern rulers. However, it completely relies on the personal character of the judge. He might be honest, but there’s no check on his dishonesty, and his decisions can only be challenged by the opinion of another judge who also has no regard for the law. Moreover, even if he is completely honest, his way of making decisions would bring uncertainty into people's lives; no one would know in advance what would happen to them or would try to align their behavior with any set of laws. The agreement that the law provides, which assures protection if people follow the law in their interactions, would need to be replaced with a broader principle: that they will be protected by the law if they act rightly in their dealings with each other. This would make the complexity of human actions and the unpredictability of their outcomes exponentially worse. One of the key benefits of law is not only that it enforces honesty, but also that it ensures people act consistently and require them to provide the same evidence of their actions. Having too many laws might indicate a corrupt and overly regulated society, while too few suggests an uncivilized one; once trade starts to develop, people create customs that carry the same weight as laws. Even equity, which is an exception to the law, follows established rules and generally stays within the scope of previous rulings.
IV. The bitterness of the Statesman is characteristic of Plato's later style, in which the thoughts of youth and love have fled away, and we are no longer tended by the Muses or the Graces. We do not venture to say that Plato was soured by old age, but certainly the kindliness and courtesy of the earlier dialogues have disappeared. He sees the world under a harder and grimmer aspect: he is dealing with the reality of things, not with visions or pictures of them: he is seeking by the aid of dialectic only, to arrive at truth. He is deeply impressed with the importance of classification: in this alone he finds the true measure of human things; and very often in the process of division curious results are obtained. For the dialectical art is no respecter of persons: king and vermin-taker are all alike to the philosopher. There may have been a time when the king was a god, but he now is pretty much on a level with his subjects in breeding and education. Man should be well advised that he is only one of the animals, and the Hellene in particular should be aware that he himself was the author of the distinction between Hellene and Barbarian, and that the Phrygian would equally divide mankind into Phrygians and Barbarians, and that some intelligent animal, like a crane, might go a step further, and divide the animal world into cranes and all other animals. Plato cannot help laughing (compare Theaet.) when he thinks of the king running after his subjects, like the pig-driver or the bird-taker. He would seriously have him consider how many competitors there are to his throne, chiefly among the class of serving-men. A good deal of meaning is lurking in the expression—'There is no art of feeding mankind worthy the name.' There is a similar depth in the remark,—'The wonder about states is not that they are short-lived, but that they last so long in spite of the badness of their rulers.'
IV. The bitterness of the Statesman reflects Plato's later style, where the ideas of youth and love have faded, and the Muses or Graces no longer guide us. We won’t say that Plato became bitter in his old age, but it's clear that the kindness and politeness from his earlier dialogues are gone. He views the world with a harsher and more serious lens: he’s focused on the reality of things rather than dreams or illusions; he’s trying to find truth solely through dialectic. He is very aware of the importance of classification; in this, he finds the true measure of human matters, and often in the process of dividing things, he discovers intriguing results. The dialectical method shows no favoritism: the king and the common worker are regarded the same by the philosopher. There may have been a time when the king was viewed as a god, but now he stands pretty much on equal footing with his subjects in terms of breeding and education. Humans should realize they are just one of the animals, and particularly the Greeks should recognize that they themselves created the distinction between Greeks and Barbarians, while the Phrygians might see the world split into Phrygians and Barbarians, and some clever being, like a crane, might go even further and categorize the animal kingdom into cranes and all other animals. Plato can’t help but laugh (see Theaet.) when he imagines a king chasing after his subjects like a pig herder or a bird catcher. He would want him to seriously think about how many rivals he has for his throne, especially among the servants. There’s a lot of meaning in the phrase, "There is no art of feeding mankind that truly deserves the name." There’s a similar depth to the observation, "The surprising thing about states is not that they are short-lived, but that they last so long despite the incompetence of their rulers."
V. There is also a paradoxical element in the Statesman which delights in reversing the accustomed use of words. The law which to the Greek was the highest object of reverence is an ignorant and brutal tyrant—the tyrant is converted into a beneficent king. The sophist too is no longer, as in the earlier dialogues, the rival of the statesman, but assumes his form. Plato sees that the ideal of the state in his own day is more and more severed from the actual. From such ideals as he had once formed, he turns away to contemplate the decline of the Greek cities which were far worse now in his old age than they had been in his youth, and were to become worse and worse in the ages which followed. He cannot contain his disgust at the contemporary statesmen, sophists who had turned politicians, in various forms of men and animals, appearing, some like lions and centaurs, others like satyrs and monkeys. In this new disguise the Sophists make their last appearance on the scene: in the Laws Plato appears to have forgotten them, or at any rate makes only a slight allusion to them in a single passage (Laws).
V. There's also a paradoxical element in the Statesman that enjoys flipping the usual meanings of words. The law, which was once the highest object of respect for the Greeks, is now seen as an ignorant and brutal tyrant—the tyrant is transformed into a kind and just king. The sophist is no longer, as in earlier dialogues, the opponent of the statesman but takes on his form. Plato realizes that the ideal state of his time is becoming increasingly disconnected from reality. He turns away from the ideals he once held to observe the decline of the Greek city-states, which are much worse now in his old age than they were in his youth, and are only going to get worse in the following ages. He can't hide his disgust for the current politicians, sophists who have become politicians, appearing in various forms as men and animals—some resembling lions and centaurs, others like satyrs and monkeys. In this new disguise, the Sophists make their final appearance: in the Laws, Plato seems to have forgotten them, or at least only makes a brief reference to them in a single passage (Laws).
VI. The Statesman is naturally connected with the Sophist. At first sight we are surprised to find that the Eleatic Stranger discourses to us, not only concerning the nature of Being and Not-being, but concerning the king and statesman. We perceive, however, that there is no inappropriateness in his maintaining the character of chief speaker, when we remember the close connexion which is assumed by Plato to exist between politics and dialectic. In both dialogues the Proteus Sophist is exhibited, first, in the disguise of an Eristic, secondly, of a false statesman. There are several lesser features which the two dialogues have in common. The styles and the situations of the speakers are very similar; there is the same love of division, and in both of them the mind of the writer is greatly occupied about method, to which he had probably intended to return in the projected 'Philosopher.'
VI. The Statesman is naturally linked to the Sophist. At first glance, we might be surprised to see the Eleatic Stranger discussing not just the nature of Being and Not-being, but also about the king and statesman. However, it makes sense for him to take the lead as the main speaker when we consider the close relationship that Plato suggests exists between politics and dialectic. In both dialogues, the Proteus Sophist appears first as an Eristic and then as a false statesman. There are several smaller aspects that the two dialogues share. The styles and situations of the speakers are very similar; there’s a shared interest in division, and in both, the writer's mind is heavily focused on method, which he likely intended to revisit in the planned 'Philosopher.'
The Statesman stands midway between the Republic and the Laws, and is also related to the Timaeus. The mythical or cosmical element reminds us of the Timaeus, the ideal of the Republic. A previous chaos in which the elements as yet were not, is hinted at both in the Timaeus and Statesman. The same ingenious arts of giving verisimilitude to a fiction are practised in both dialogues, and in both, as well as in the myth at the end of the Republic, Plato touches on the subject of necessity and free-will. The words in which he describes the miseries of states seem to be an amplification of the 'Cities will never cease from ill' of the Republic. The point of view in both is the same; and the differences not really important, e.g. in the myth, or in the account of the different kinds of states. But the treatment of the subject in the Statesman is fragmentary, and the shorter and later work, as might be expected, is less finished, and less worked out in detail. The idea of measure and the arrangement of the sciences supply connecting links both with the Republic and the Philebus.
The Statesman sits between the Republic and the Laws and is also related to the Timaeus. The mythical or cosmic aspect connects it to the Timaeus, which embodies the ideals of the Republic. Both the Timaeus and the Statesman hint at a previous chaos where the elements did not yet exist. Both dialogues employ clever techniques to make their fictional elements seem believable, and in both—as well as in the myth at the end of the Republic—Plato explores themes of necessity and free will. The description of the hardships of states seems to expand on the idea that "Cities will never cease from ill" from the Republic. The perspectives in both works are similar, and the differences aren’t particularly significant, such as in the myth or the discussion of different types of states. However, the treatment of the topic in the Statesman is fragmentary; the shorter and later work, as one might expect, is less polished and not as detailed. The concept of measure and the arrangement of the sciences provide connections to both the Republic and the Philebus.
More than any of the preceding dialogues, the Statesman seems to approximate in thought and language to the Laws. There is the same decline and tendency to monotony in style, the same self-consciousness, awkwardness, and over-civility; and in the Laws is contained the pattern of that second best form of government, which, after all, is admitted to be the only attainable one in this world. The 'gentle violence,' the marriage of dissimilar natures, the figure of the warp and the woof, are also found in the Laws. Both expressly recognize the conception of a first or ideal state, which has receded into an invisible heaven. Nor does the account of the origin and growth of society really differ in them, if we make allowance for the mythic character of the narrative in the Statesman. The virtuous tyrant is common to both of them; and the Eleatic Stranger takes up a position similar to that of the Athenian Stranger in the Laws.
More than any of the earlier dialogues, the Statesman seems to align in thought and language with the Laws. There’s a similar decline and tendency toward monotony in style, along with the same self-awareness, awkwardness, and excessive politeness; and in the Laws, we see the model of that second-best form of government, which is ultimately recognized as the only realistic one in this world. The concept of 'gentle violence,' the blending of unlike elements, and the idea of the warp and the woof are also present in the Laws. Both works clearly acknowledge the idea of an ideal state that has faded into an unseen heaven. Moreover, the descriptions of the origins and development of society aren't really different between the two, if we consider the mythic nature of the narrative in the Statesman. The idea of the virtuous tyrant appears in both; and the Eleatic Stranger takes a similar stance to that of the Athenian Stranger in the Laws.
VII. There would have been little disposition to doubt the genuineness of the Sophist and Statesman, if they had been compared with the Laws rather than with the Republic, and the Laws had been received, as they ought to be, on the authority of Aristotle and on the ground of their intrinsic excellence, as an undoubted work of Plato. The detailed consideration of the genuineness and order of the Platonic dialogues has been reserved for another place: a few of the reasons for defending the Sophist and Statesman may be given here.
VII. There would have been little reason to doubt the authenticity of the Sophist and Statesman if they had been compared to the Laws instead of the Republic, and if the Laws had been accepted, as they should be, based on Aristotle's authority and their inherent quality, as an undisputed work of Plato. A thorough examination of the authenticity and arrangement of the Platonic dialogues has been set aside for another discussion: a few reasons for defending the Sophist and Statesman can be provided here.
1. The excellence, importance, and metaphysical originality of the two dialogues: no works at once so good and of such length are known to have proceeded from the hands of a forger.
1. The greatness, significance, and unique philosophical insight of the two dialogues: no other works that are both so high-quality and lengthy are known to have come from the hands of a fake.
2. The resemblances in them to other dialogues of Plato are such as might be expected to be found in works of the same author, and not in those of an imitator, being too subtle and minute to have been invented by another. The similar passages and turns of thought are generally inferior to the parallel passages in his earlier writings; and we might a priori have expected that, if altered, they would have been improved. But the comparison of the Laws proves that this repetition of his own thoughts and words in an inferior form is characteristic of Plato's later style.
2. The similarities they share with other dialogues by Plato are what you'd expect to find in works by the same author and not in those of someone trying to copy him, as they are too subtle and detailed to have been created by another person. The similar sections and ways of thinking are generally not as strong as those in his earlier works, and we might have assumed that, if changed, they would have been enhanced. However, comparing the Laws shows that this repetition of his own ideas and wording in a weaker form is typical of Plato's later style.
3. The close connexion of them with the Theaetetus, Parmenides, and Philebus, involves the fate of these dialogues, as well as of the two suspected ones.
3. The close connection of these with the Theaetetus, Parmenides, and Philebus involves the fate of these dialogues, as well as the two questionable ones.
4. The suspicion of them seems mainly to rest on a presumption that in Plato's writings we may expect to find an uniform type of doctrine and opinion. But however we arrange the order, or narrow the circle of the dialogues, we must admit that they exhibit a growth and progress in the mind of Plato. And the appearance of change or progress is not to be regarded as impugning the genuineness of any particular writings, but may be even an argument in their favour. If we suppose the Sophist and Politicus to stand halfway between the Republic and the Laws, and in near connexion with the Theaetetus, the Parmenides, the Philebus, the arguments against them derived from differences of thought and style disappear or may be said without paradox in some degree to confirm their genuineness. There is no such interval between the Republic or Phaedrus and the two suspected dialogues, as that which separates all the earlier writings of Plato from the Laws. And the Theaetetus, Parmenides, and Philebus, supply links, by which, however different from them, they may be reunited with the great body of the Platonic writings.
4. The suspicion surrounding them seems mainly based on the assumption that in Plato's works we should expect a consistent type of doctrine and opinion. However we organize the order or limit the selection of the dialogues, we must acknowledge that they show growth and development in Plato's thinking. The appearance of change or progress shouldn’t be seen as questioning the authenticity of any specific writings; in fact, it may even support their authenticity. If we consider the Sophist and Politicus as positioned between the Republic and the Laws, and closely related to the Theaetetus, the Parmenides, and the Philebus, the arguments against them based on differences in thought and style fade away or can be said, without being contradictory, to somewhat validate their authenticity. There’s no such gap between the Republic or Phaedrus and the two questioned dialogues as the one that separates all of Plato's earlier works from the Laws. The Theaetetus, Parmenides, and Philebus provide connections that, despite their differences, allow them to be linked back to the broader collection of Platonic writings.
STATESMAN
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Theodorus, Socrates, The Eleatic Stranger, The Younger Socrates.
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Theodorus, Socrates, the Eleatic Stranger, the Younger Socrates.
SOCRATES: I owe you many thanks, indeed, Theodorus, for the acquaintance both of Theaetetus and of the Stranger.
SOCRATES: I really appreciate it, Theodorus, for introducing me to both Theaetetus and the Stranger.
THEODORUS: And in a little while, Socrates, you will owe me three times as many, when they have completed for you the delineation of the Statesman and of the Philosopher, as well as of the Sophist.
THEODORUS: And soon, Socrates, you’ll owe me three times as much when they finish drawing up the outlines for the Statesman, the Philosopher, and the Sophist.
SOCRATES: Sophist, statesman, philosopher! O my dear Theodorus, do my ears truly witness that this is the estimate formed of them by the great calculator and geometrician?
SOCRATES: Sophist, statesman, philosopher! Oh my dear Theodorus, can it really be that this is how the brilliant mathematician and geometer views them?
THEODORUS: What do you mean, Socrates?
THEODORUS: What are you saying, Socrates?
SOCRATES: I mean that you rate them all at the same value, whereas they are really separated by an interval, which no geometrical ratio can express.
SOCRATES: What I mean is that you treat them all as equal, but they are actually separated by a gap that no geometric ratio can represent.
THEODORUS: By Ammon, the god of Cyrene, Socrates, that is a very fair hit; and shows that you have not forgotten your geometry. I will retaliate on you at some other time, but I must now ask the Stranger, who will not, I hope, tire of his goodness to us, to proceed either with the Statesman or with the Philosopher, whichever he prefers.
THEODORUS: By Ammon, the god of Cyrene, Socrates, that's a really good point; it shows you haven't forgotten your geometry. I'll get back at you another time, but for now, I need to ask the Stranger, who I hope won't get tired of being so kind to us, to continue with either the Statesman or the Philosopher, whichever he prefers.
STRANGER: That is my duty, Theodorus; having begun I must go on, and not leave the work unfinished. But what shall be done with Theaetetus?
STRANGER: That's my responsibility, Theodorus; having started, I must continue and not leave the job incomplete. But what will happen to Theaetetus?
THEODORUS: In what respect?
THEODORUS: In what way?
STRANGER: Shall we relieve him, and take his companion, the Young Socrates, instead of him? What do you advise?
STRANGER: Should we help him out and take his companion, the Young Socrates, instead? What do you think?
THEODORUS: Yes, give the other a turn, as you propose. The young always do better when they have intervals of rest.
THEODORUS: Yes, let the other one take a turn, as you suggested. Young people always perform better when they have breaks to rest.
SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that both of them may be said to be in some way related to me; for the one, as you affirm, has the cut of my ugly face (compare Theaet.), the other is called by my name. And we should always be on the look-out to recognize a kinsman by the style of his conversation. I myself was discoursing with Theaetetus yesterday, and I have just been listening to his answers; my namesake I have not yet examined, but I must. Another time will do for me; to-day let him answer you.
SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that both of them can be considered related to me in some way; one, as you say, has the shape of my ugly face (see Theaet.), and the other shares my name. We should always be ready to recognize a relative by the way he talks. I was discussing things with Theaetetus yesterday, and I’ve just been listening to his responses; I haven’t examined my namesake yet, but I will. Another time will work for that; today, let him respond to you.
STRANGER: Very good. Young Socrates, do you hear what the elder Socrates is proposing?
STRANGER: Very good. Young Socrates, do you hear what the older Socrates is suggesting?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do.
STRANGER: And do you agree to his proposal?
STRANGER: Do you agree with his proposal?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: As you do not object, still less can I. After the Sophist, then, I think that the Statesman naturally follows next in the order of enquiry. And please to say, whether he, too, should be ranked among those who have science.
STRANGER: Since you don't mind, I definitely won't either. After the Sophist, I believe the Statesman should come next in our discussion. And please let me know if he should also be considered one of those who possess knowledge.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: Then the sciences must be divided as before?
STRANGER: So the sciences need to be divided like before?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I dare say.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I must say.
STRANGER: But yet the division will not be the same?
STRANGER: But the division will still be different, right?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How then?
YOUNG SOCRATES: So, what now?
STRANGER: They will be divided at some other point.
STRANGER: They will be split at some other point.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: Where shall we discover the path of the Statesman? We must find and separate off, and set our seal upon this, and we will set the mark of another class upon all diverging paths. Thus the soul will conceive of all kinds of knowledge under two classes.
STRANGER: Where will we find the way of the Statesman? We need to identify, isolate, and mark this, and we will label all diverging paths with a different category. In this way, the soul will understand all types of knowledge in two categories.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To find the path is your business, Stranger, and not mine.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Figuring out the path is your job, Stranger, not mine.
STRANGER: Yes, Socrates, but the discovery, when once made, must be yours as well as mine.
STRANGER: Yeah, Socrates, but once we figure it out, it has to be yours just as much as it is mine.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: Well, and are not arithmetic and certain other kindred arts, merely abstract knowledge, wholly separated from action?
STRANGER: Well, aren’t arithmetic and some other related subjects just abstract knowledge, completely disconnected from action?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: But in the art of carpentering and all other handicrafts, the knowledge of the workman is merged in his work; he not only knows, but he also makes things which previously did not exist.
STRANGER: But in carpentry and all other trades, the craftsman’s knowledge is part of the work; he not only understands it, but he also creates things that didn’t exist before.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Then let us divide sciences in general into those which are practical and those which are purely intellectual.
STRANGER: Then let’s split sciences into two main categories: those that are practical and those that are purely theoretical.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let us assume these two divisions of science, which is one whole.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let's assume these two parts of science, which is one complete area.
STRANGER: And are 'statesman,' 'king,' 'master,' or 'householder,' one and the same; or is there a science or art answering to each of these names? Or rather, allow me to put the matter in another way.
STRANGER: So, are 'statesman,' 'king,' 'master,' and 'householder' all the same, or is there a specific knowledge or skill related to each of these titles? Or, let me rephrase that.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Go ahead, I'm listening.
STRANGER: If any one who is in a private station has the skill to advise one of the public physicians, must not he also be called a physician?
STRANGER: If someone who is not in a public role has the knowledge to advise a public doctor, shouldn’t he also be considered a doctor?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And if any one who is in a private station is able to advise the ruler of a country, may not he be said to have the knowledge which the ruler himself ought to have?
STRANGER: And if someone who isn’t in a position of power can advise the leader of a country, can’t we say that person has the knowledge that the leader should have?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: But surely the science of a true king is royal science?
STRANGER: But surely the knowledge of a real king is royal knowledge?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: And will not he who possesses this knowledge, whether he happens to be a ruler or a private man, when regarded only in reference to his art, be truly called 'royal'?
STRANGER: And won't the one who has this knowledge, whether they are a ruler or an ordinary person, when looked at just in terms of their skill, truly be considered 'royal'?
YOUNG SOCRATES: He certainly ought to be.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He definitely should be.
STRANGER: And the householder and master are the same?
STRANGER: So the householder and the master are the same person?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Again, a large household may be compared to a small state:—will they differ at all, as far as government is concerned?
STRANGER: Once more, a large household can be likened to a small state: will they differ in any way when it comes to governance?
YOUNG SOCRATES: They will not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: They won't.
STRANGER: Then, returning to the point which we were just now discussing, do we not clearly see that there is one science of all of them; and this science may be called either royal or political or economical; we will not quarrel with any one about the name.
STRANGER: So, getting back to what we were just talking about, can't we clearly see that there's one science that encompasses all of them? We can call this science royal, political, or economical; we won't argue with anyone about the name.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: This too, is evident, that the king cannot do much with his hands, or with his whole body, towards the maintenance of his empire, compared with what he does by the intelligence and strength of his mind.
STRANGER: It's clear that the king can't achieve much with just his hands or his entire body when it comes to maintaining his empire, compared to what he accomplishes with the intelligence and strength of his mind.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: Then, shall we say that the king has a greater affinity to knowledge than to manual arts and to practical life in general?
STRANGER: So, should we say that the king is more inclined towards knowledge than to hands-on skills and practical life overall?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly he has.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course he has.
STRANGER: Then we may put all together as one and the same—statesmanship and the statesman—the kingly science and the king.
STRANGER: So, we can combine everything into one—statesmanship and the statesman—the art of ruling and the ruler.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And now we shall only be proceeding in due order if we go on to divide the sphere of knowledge?
STRANGER: So now, we’ll be following the proper course if we move on to divide the realm of knowledge?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: Think whether you can find any joint or parting in knowledge.
STRANGER: Consider if you can find any connection or division in knowledge.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Tell me of what sort.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind are you talking about?
STRANGER: Such as this: You may remember that we made an art of calculation?
STRANGER: Like this: You might remember that we turned calculation into an art?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: Which was, unmistakeably, one of the arts of knowledge?
STRANGER: Which was definitely one of the arts of knowledge?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: And to this art of calculation which discerns the differences of numbers shall we assign any other function except to pass judgment on their differences?
STRANGER: So, will we give this skill of calculation, which identifies the differences between numbers, any other purpose besides judging those differences?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How could we?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can we?
STRANGER: You know that the master-builder does not work himself, but is the ruler of workmen?
STRANGER: You know that the master-builder doesn't do the work himself, but he oversees the workers?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: He contributes knowledge, not manual labour?
STRANGER: He offers knowledge, not physical work?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: And may therefore be justly said to share in theoretical science?
STRANGER: So, can we rightly say that it contributes to theoretical science?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: But he ought not, like the calculator, to regard his functions as at an end when he has formed a judgment;—he must assign to the individual workmen their appropriate task until they have completed the work.
STRANGER: But he shouldn't, like the calculator, consider his job done once he has made a judgment;—he needs to assign the individual workers their specific tasks until they finish the work.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: Are not all such sciences, no less than arithmetic and the like, subjects of pure knowledge; and is not the difference between the two classes, that the one sort has the power of judging only, and the other of ruling as well?
STRANGER: Aren't all these sciences, just like arithmetic and similar subjects, parts of pure knowledge? Isn't the difference between the two types that one can only judge, while the other can also rule?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is evident.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's obvious.
STRANGER: May we not very properly say, that of all knowledge, there are two divisions—one which rules, and the other which judges?
STRANGER: Can we not rightly say that all knowledge falls into two categories—one that governs and the other that assesses?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I should think so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I would think so.
STRANGER: And when men have anything to do in common, that they should be of one mind is surely a desirable thing?
STRANGER: And when people have something to work on together, it's definitely a good idea for them to be on the same page, right?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Then while we are at unity among ourselves, we need not mind about the fancies of others?
STRANGER: So, as long as we are united, we shouldn’t worry about what others think?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely not.
STRANGER: And now, in which of these divisions shall we place the king?—Is he a judge and a kind of spectator? Or shall we assign to him the art of command—for he is a ruler?
STRANGER: So now, where should we categorize the king? Is he a judge and a sort of observer? Or should we attribute to him the skill of leadership—since he is a ruler?
YOUNG SOCRATES: The latter, clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely the latter.
STRANGER: Then we must see whether there is any mark of division in the art of command too. I am inclined to think that there is a distinction similar to that of manufacturer and retail dealer, which parts off the king from the herald.
STRANGER: Then we should check if there's any sign of division in the art of leadership as well. I think there’s a difference similar to that between a manufacturer and a retailer, which separates the king from the herald.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How is this?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's going on?
STRANGER: Why, does not the retailer receive and sell over again the productions of others, which have been sold before?
STRANGER: Why doesn’t the retailer buy and resell products made by others that have already been sold?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly he does.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course he does.
STRANGER: And is not the herald under command, and does he not receive orders, and in his turn give them to others?
STRANGER: Isn't the herald under orders, and doesn't he receive commands, then pass them on to others?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Then shall we mingle the kingly art in the same class with the art of the herald, the interpreter, the boatswain, the prophet, and the numerous kindred arts which exercise command; or, as in the preceding comparison we spoke of manufacturers, or sellers for themselves, and of retailers,—seeing, too, that the class of supreme rulers, or rulers for themselves, is almost nameless—shall we make a word following the same analogy, and refer kings to a supreme or ruling-for-self science, leaving the rest to receive a name from some one else? For we are seeking the ruler; and our enquiry is not concerned with him who is not a ruler.
STRANGER: So should we group the royal art alongside the skills of heralds, interpreters, boatswains, prophets, and other similar arts that hold power? Or, just like we previously discussed manufacturers, sellers, and retailers—considering that the category of top rulers or self-governing rulers is almost undefined—should we create a term based on that analogy and categorize kings under a supreme or self-governing science, while letting the others be named by someone else? Because we are looking for the true ruler, and our inquiry doesn't relate to those who aren’t rulers.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: Thus a very fair distinction has been attained between the man who gives his own commands, and him who gives another's. And now let us see if the supreme power allows of any further division.
STRANGER: So, we've made a clear distinction between the person who gives their own orders and the one who gives someone else's. Now, let's see if the ultimate authority allows for any further division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: I think that it does; and please to assist me in making the division.
STRANGER: I believe it does; and please help me with the division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: At what point?
YOUNG SOCRATES: When?
STRANGER: May not all rulers be supposed to command for the sake of producing something?
STRANGER: Shouldn't we assume that all rulers are meant to lead in order to create something?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: Nor is there any difficulty in dividing the things produced into two classes.
STRANGER: There's also no trouble in dividing the things produced into two categories.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you divide them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you split them up?
STRANGER: Of the whole class, some have life and some are without life.
STRANGER: In the entire class, some are alive and some are lifeless.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And by the help of this distinction we may make, if we please, a subdivision of the section of knowledge which commands.
STRANGER: And with this distinction, we can, if we want, break down the part of knowledge that governs.
YOUNG SOCRATES: At what point?
YOUNG SOCRATES: When?
STRANGER: One part may be set over the production of lifeless, the other of living objects; and in this way the whole will be divided.
STRANGER: One part may focus on creating inanimate objects, while the other focuses on living things; this way, everything will be divided.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: That division, then, is complete; and now we may leave one half, and take up the other; which may also be divided into two.
STRANGER: That division is done; now we can leave one half and take on the other, which can also be split into two.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which of the two halves do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which half are you talking about?
STRANGER: Of course that which exercises command about animals. For, surely, the royal science is not like that of a master-workman, a science presiding over lifeless objects;—the king has a nobler function, which is the management and control of living beings.
STRANGER: Of course, that which holds power over animals. For, the royal science is definitely not like that of a skilled craftsman, a knowledge that governs inanimate objects;—the king has a higher purpose, which is the leadership and regulation of living beings.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And the breeding and tending of living beings may be observed to be sometimes a tending of the individual; in other cases, a common care of creatures in flocks?
STRANGER: And the raising and caring for living beings can sometimes be seen as looking after the individual; in other instances, it’s about shared care of creatures in groups?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: But the statesman is not a tender of individuals—not like the driver or groom of a single ox or horse; he is rather to be compared with the keeper of a drove of horses or oxen.
STRANGER: But the statesman isn't just looking after individuals—not like a driver or caretaker of a single ox or horse; he’s more like the keeper of a herd of horses or oxen.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, I see, thanks to you.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, I get it, thanks to you.
STRANGER: Shall we call this art of tending many animals together, the art of managing a herd, or the art of collective management?
STRANGER: Should we refer to this skill of taking care of many animals together as the art of managing a herd, or the art of collective management?
YOUNG SOCRATES: No matter;—whichever suggests itself to us in the course of conversation.
YOUNG SOCRATES: It doesn't matter;—whatever comes to mind during our conversation.
STRANGER: Very good, Socrates; and, if you continue to be not too particular about names, you will be all the richer in wisdom when you are an old man. And now, as you say, leaving the discussion of the name,—can you see a way in which a person, by showing the art of herding to be of two kinds, may cause that which is now sought amongst twice the number of things, to be then sought amongst half that number?
STRANGER: That's great, Socrates; and if you stay flexible about names, you'll gain even more wisdom as you get older. Now, moving on from the naming discussion—can you think of a way that someone could demonstrate that herding has two types, making what is currently looked for among twice the number of things, then looked for among half that number?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I will try;—there appears to me to be one management of men and another of beasts.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I'll give it a shot; it seems to me that there's one way to manage people and another way to manage animals.
STRANGER: You have certainly divided them in a most straightforward and manly style; but you have fallen into an error which hereafter I think that we had better avoid.
STRANGER: You've definitely separated them in a very clear and confident way; however, you've made a mistake that I believe we should avoid in the future.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is the error?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s the error?
STRANGER: I think that we had better not cut off a single small portion which is not a species, from many larger portions; the part should be a species. To separate off at once the subject of investigation, is a most excellent plan, if only the separation be rightly made; and you were under the impression that you were right, because you saw that you would come to man; and this led you to hasten the steps. But you should not chip off too small a piece, my friend; the safer way is to cut through the middle; which is also the more likely way of finding classes. Attention to this principle makes all the difference in a process of enquiry.
STRANGER: I think we should avoid taking any tiny part that isn't a whole category from many bigger categories; the part should be a category itself. Isolating the subject of investigation at once is a really good strategy, as long as the separation is done correctly; and you thought you were right because you believed it would lead to understanding humans, which made you rush things. But you shouldn't take too small a piece, my friend; the better approach is to go for a middle-sized cut, which is also more likely to reveal broader categories. Paying attention to this principle can really change the outcome of an investigation.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean, Stranger?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about, Stranger?
STRANGER: I will endeavour to speak more plainly out of love to your good parts, Socrates; and, although I cannot at present entirely explain myself, I will try, as we proceed, to make my meaning a little clearer.
STRANGER: I'll try to speak more clearly out of respect for your good qualities, Socrates; and even though I can't fully explain myself right now, I'll do my best to make my point clearer as we go along.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was the error of which, as you say, we were guilty in our recent division?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was the mistake we made in our recent separation?
STRANGER: The error was just as if some one who wanted to divide the human race, were to divide them after the fashion which prevails in this part of the world; here they cut off the Hellenes as one species, and all the other species of mankind, which are innumerable, and have no ties or common language, they include under the single name of 'barbarians,' and because they have one name they are supposed to be of one species also. Or suppose that in dividing numbers you were to cut off ten thousand from all the rest, and make of it one species, comprehending the rest under another separate name, you might say that here too was a single class, because you had given it a single name. Whereas you would make a much better and more equal and logical classification of numbers, if you divided them into odd and even; or of the human species, if you divided them into male and female; and only separated off Lydians or Phrygians, or any other tribe, and arrayed them against the rest of the world, when you could no longer make a division into parts which were also classes.
STRANGER: The mistake is like someone trying to split the human race by the way it's done here; they separate the Greeks as one group, and all the countless other groups of people, who have no connections or shared language, are lumped together under the term 'barbarians.' Because they all share this one name, they’re assumed to be one group too. Imagine if, when sorting numbers, you took ten thousand out from the rest and called that one group, while giving the remaining numbers a different name; you might think you created a single category just because you gave it a single name. However, a much better and more logical way to classify numbers would be to divide them into odd and even; likewise with humans, separating them into male and female, and only grouping Lydians, Phrygians, or any other tribe against the rest of the world when you couldn't make divisions that also formed classes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true; but I wish that this distinction between a part and a class could still be made somewhat plainer.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's very true; but I wish this difference between a part and a class could be made a bit clearer.
STRANGER: O Socrates, best of men, you are imposing upon me a very difficult task. We have already digressed further from our original intention than we ought, and you would have us wander still further away. But we must now return to our subject; and hereafter, when there is a leisure hour, we will follow up the other track; at the same time, I wish you to guard against imagining that you ever heard me declare—
STRANGER: Oh Socrates, the wisest of men, you’re asking me to take on a really tough task. We’ve already strayed from our original point more than we should, and now you want us to go even further off course. But we need to get back to our main topic; and later, when we have some free time, we can explore the other path. At the same time, I want you to make sure you don’t think that you ever heard me say—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Huh?
STRANGER: That a class and a part are distinct.
STRANGER: That a class and a part are different.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What did I hear, then?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What did I just hear?
STRANGER: That a class is necessarily a part, but there is no similar necessity that a part should be a class; that is the view which I should always wish you to attribute to me, Socrates.
STRANGER: A class is definitely a part, but there's no need for a part to be a class; that's how I’d always want you to see my perspective, Socrates.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So be it.
YOUNG SOCRATES: All right then.
STRANGER: There is another thing which I should like to know.
STRANGER: There's one more thing I'd like to know.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
What’s going on?
STRANGER: The point at which we digressed; for, if I am not mistaken, the exact place was at the question, Where you would divide the management of herds. To this you appeared rather too ready to answer that there were two species of animals; man being one, and all brutes making up the other.
STRANGER: The moment we went off track; because, if I remember correctly, the exact point was when you were asked how you would separate the management of herds. You seemed a bit too eager to say that there were two types of animals: humans being one, and all other animals making up the other.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: I thought that in taking away a part, you imagined that the remainder formed a class, because you were able to call them by the common name of brutes.
STRANGER: I thought that by removing a part, you believed that the rest made up a category, since you could refer to them all with the shared name of brutes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That again is true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true once more.
STRANGER: Suppose now, O most courageous of dialecticians, that some wise and understanding creature, such as a crane is reputed to be, were, in imitation of you, to make a similar division, and set up cranes against all other animals to their own special glorification, at the same time jumbling together all the others, including man, under the appellation of brutes,—here would be the sort of error which we must try to avoid.
STRANGER: Let's say, O most courageous of debaters, that a wise and perceptive being, like a crane is said to be, were to mimic you by making a similar classification and elevate cranes above all other animals, while lumping all the others, including humans, together and calling them brutes—this would be the kind of mistake we need to steer clear of.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can we be safe?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can we be safe?
STRANGER: If we do not divide the whole class of animals, we shall be less likely to fall into that error.
STRANGER: If we don’t categorize all the different types of animals, we’re less likely to make that mistake.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We had better not take the whole?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Should we not take the whole?
STRANGER: Yes, there lay the source of error in our former division.
STRANGER: Yes, that was where the mistake was in our earlier division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
STRANGER: You remember how that part of the art of knowledge which was concerned with command, had to do with the rearing of living creatures,—I mean, with animals in herds?
STRANGER: Do you remember how that aspect of the art of knowledge related to leadership involved the raising of living creatures—I mean, animals in groups?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: In that case, there was already implied a division of all animals into tame and wild; those whose nature can be tamed are called tame, and those which cannot be tamed are called wild.
STRANGER: In that case, there was already an implied division of all animals into tame and wild; those that can be tamed are called tame, and those that cannot be tamed are called wild.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: And the political science of which we are in search, is and ever was concerned with tame animals, and is also confined to gregarious animals.
STRANGER: The political science we're looking for has always been about domesticated animals and is also limited to social animals.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: But then we ought not to divide, as we did, taking the whole class at once. Neither let us be in too great haste to arrive quickly at the political science; for this mistake has already brought upon us the misfortune of which the proverb speaks.
STRANGER: But we shouldn't split up like we did, taking the whole class at once. Let's also not rush to get to political science; because that mistake has already brought us the trouble the saying warns about.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What misfortune?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What trouble?
STRANGER: The misfortune of too much haste, which is too little speed.
STRANGER: The problem with being too hasty is that it actually slows you down.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And all the better, Stranger;—we got what we deserved.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And that's even better, Stranger;—we got what we deserved.
STRANGER: Very well: Let us then begin again, and endeavour to divide the collective rearing of animals; for probably the completion of the argument will best show what you are so anxious to know. Tell me, then—
STRANGER: Alright: Let’s start over and try to break down the shared raising of animals; because completing this discussion will probably best reveal what you’re so eager to understand. So, tell me—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
STRANGER: Have you ever heard, as you very likely may—for I do not suppose that you ever actually visited them—of the preserves of fishes in the Nile, and in the ponds of the Great King; or you may have seen similar preserves in wells at home?
STRANGER: Have you ever heard, as you probably have—since I don't think you've actually visited them—about the fish reserves in the Nile, and in the ponds of the Great King? Or maybe you've seen similar reserves in wells back home?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, to be sure, I have seen them, and I have often heard the others described.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, definitely, I have seen them, and I have often heard others talk about them.
STRANGER: And you may have heard also, and may have been assured by report, although you have not travelled in those regions, of nurseries of geese and cranes in the plains of Thessaly?
STRANGER: And you might have heard, and maybe been told by others, even though you haven't been to those areas, about the places in Thessaly where they raise geese and cranes?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
Socrates: Sure.
STRANGER: I asked you, because here is a new division of the management of herds, into the management of land and of water herds.
STRANGER: I asked you because there's a new way to manage herds, focusing on land herds and water herds.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is.
Young Socrates: It exists.
STRANGER: And do you agree that we ought to divide the collective rearing of herds into two corresponding parts, the one the rearing of water, and the other the rearing of land herds?
STRANGER: Do you agree that we should split the collective raising of herds into two related parts: one for raising water herds and the other for raising land herds?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: There is surely no need to ask which of these two contains the royal art, for it is evident to everybody.
STRANGER: There's really no need to ask which of these two holds the royal art, because it's clear to everyone.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Any one can divide the herds which feed on dry land?
STRANGER: Can anyone separate the herds that graze on dry land?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you divide them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you sort them?
STRANGER: I should distinguish between those which fly and those which walk.
STRANGER: I need to tell the difference between those that fly and those that walk.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
STRANGER: And where shall we look for the political animal? Might not an idiot, so to speak, know that he is a pedestrian?
STRANGER: So where should we search for the political animal? Wouldn't a fool, so to speak, realize that he is just an ordinary person?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: The art of managing the walking animal has to be further divided, just as you might halve an even number.
STRANGER: The skill of handling the walking animal needs to be broken down even further, just like you would divide an even number in half.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Let me note that here appear in view two ways to that part or class which the argument aims at reaching,—the one a speedier way, which cuts off a small portion and leaves a large; the other agrees better with the principle which we were laying down, that as far as we can we should divide in the middle; but it is longer. We can take either of them, whichever we please.
STRANGER: I’d like to point out that there are two ways to reach the part or class we’re discussing—one is a faster route that takes a smaller portion and leaves a larger one; the other aligns better with the principle we established, which is to divide as evenly as possible, but it takes longer. We can choose either option, whichever we prefer.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Cannot we have both ways?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Can't we have both options?
STRANGER: Together? What a thing to ask! but, if you take them in turn, you clearly may.
STRANGER: Together? What a thing to ask! But if you take them one at a time, then you definitely can.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then I should like to have them in turn.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then I would like to have them one by one.
STRANGER: There will be no difficulty, as we are near the end; if we had been at the beginning, or in the middle, I should have demurred to your request; but now, in accordance with your desire, let us begin with the longer way; while we are fresh, we shall get on better. And now attend to the division.
STRANGER: There won't be any issues since we're almost done; if we were at the start or in the middle, I would have hesitated to agree to your request. But now, as you wish, let's take the longer route; since we're still fresh, we'll make better progress. Now, let's go over the division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I'm all ears.
STRANGER: The tame walking herding animals are distributed by nature into two classes.
STRANGER: The domesticated herding animals are naturally divided into two categories.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Upon what principle?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Based on what principle?
STRANGER: The one grows horns; and the other is without horns.
STRANGER: One has horns, and the other doesn't.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely.
STRANGER: Suppose that you divide the science which manages pedestrian animals into two corresponding parts, and define them; for if you try to invent names for them, you will find the intricacy too great.
STRANGER: Imagine you split the science that deals with walking animals into two related parts and define each of them; because if you try to come up with names for them, you’ll see the complexity is too much.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How must I speak of them, then?
YOUNG SOCRATES: So how should I talk about them?
STRANGER: In this way: let the science of managing pedestrian animals be divided into two parts, and one part assigned to the horned herd, and the other to the herd that has no horns.
STRANGER: This is how it should be done: let the science of handling livestock be divided into two sections, one for the horned animals and the other for the hornless ones.
YOUNG SOCRATES: All that you say has been abundantly proved, and may therefore be assumed.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Everything you've said has been thoroughly proven, so we can take it as a given.
STRANGER: The king is clearly the shepherd of a polled herd, who have no horns.
STRANGER: The king is obviously the shepherd of a hornless flock.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is evident.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's clear.
STRANGER: Shall we break up this hornless herd into sections, and endeavour to assign to him what is his?
STRANGER: Should we divide this hornless herd into sections and try to assign to him what belongs to him?
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Shall we distinguish them by their having or not having cloven feet, or by their mixing or not mixing the breed? You know what I mean.
STRANGER: Should we tell them apart by whether they have cloven feet or by whether they're mixing breeds? You know what I'm saying.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
What?
STRANGER: I mean that horses and asses naturally breed from one another.
STRANGER: I mean that horses and donkeys naturally breed with each other.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: But the remainder of the hornless herd of tame animals will not mix the breed.
STRANGER: But the rest of the hornless group of domesticated animals won't mix the breeds.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely true.
STRANGER: And of which has the Statesman charge,—of the mixed or of the unmixed race?
STRANGER: So which one does the Statesman oversee—the mixed race or the unmixed race?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly of the unmixed.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly the pure kind.
STRANGER: I suppose that we must divide this again as before.
STRANGER: I guess we need to split this up again like we did before.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We must.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We have to.
STRANGER: Every tame and herding animal has now been split up, with the exception of two species; for I hardly think that dogs should be reckoned among gregarious animals.
STRANGER: Every domestic and herding animal has now been divided up, except for two species; I can hardly consider dogs as social animals.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not; but how shall we divide the two remaining species?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course not; but how should we split the two remaining types?
STRANGER: There is a measure of difference which may be appropriately employed by you and Theaetetus, who are students of geometry.
STRANGER: There’s a way of measuring differences that you and Theaetetus, as students of geometry, can use effectively.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s that?
STRANGER: The diameter; and, again, the diameter of a diameter. (Compare Meno.)
STRANGER: The diameter; and again, the diameter of a diameter. (See Meno.)
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: How does man walk, but as a diameter whose power is two feet?
STRANGER: How does a man walk if not like a diameter that's two feet long?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Just so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: And the power of the remaining kind, being the power of twice two feet, may be said to be the diameter of our diameter.
STRANGER: And the power of the remaining kind, being the power of twice two feet, might be described as the diameter of our diameter.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly; and now I think that I pretty nearly understand you.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely; and I think I almost get what you mean now.
STRANGER: In these divisions, Socrates, I descry what would make another famous jest.
STRANGER: In these divisions, Socrates, I see something that could be a great joke.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's that?
STRANGER: Human beings have come out in the same class with the freest and airiest of creation, and have been running a race with them.
STRANGER: Humans have emerged in the same category as the most free and lighthearted of creations, and have been competing with them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I remark that very singular coincidence.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I notice that very strange coincidence.
STRANGER: And would you not expect the slowest to arrive last?
STRANGER: Wouldn't you expect the slowest to arrive last?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Indeed I should.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course I should.
STRANGER: And there is a still more ridiculous consequence, that the king is found running about with the herd and in close competition with the bird-catcher, who of all mankind is most of an adept at the airy life. (Plato is here introducing a new subdivision, i.e. that of bipeds into men and birds. Others however refer the passage to the division into quadrupeds and bipeds, making pigs compete with human beings and the pig-driver with the king. According to this explanation we must translate the words above, 'freest and airiest of creation,' 'worthiest and laziest of creation.')
STRANGER: And there's an even more absurd outcome: the king is found running around with the group and competing closely with the bird-catcher, who is the most skilled at living that free, carefree life among all people. (Plato is introducing a new category here, dividing bipeds into men and birds. However, others interpret this passage as a distinction between quadrupeds and bipeds, putting pigs against humans and the pig-driver against the king. According to this interpretation, we should translate the earlier words as 'freest and lightest of creation,' 'most deserving and laziest of creation.')
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Then here, Socrates, is still clearer evidence of the truth of what was said in the enquiry about the Sophist? (Compare Sophist.)
STRANGER: So here, Socrates, is even clearer evidence of the truth of what was discussed in the investigation about the Sophist? (Compare Sophist.)
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
What?
STRANGER: That the dialectical method is no respecter of persons, and does not set the great above the small, but always arrives in her own way at the truest result.
STRANGER: The dialectical method doesn’t play favorites and doesn’t prioritize the great over the small; it always reaches the truest conclusion in its own way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And now, I will not wait for you to ask, but will of my own accord take you by the shorter road to the definition of a king.
STRANGER: And now, I won't wait for you to ask; I will take you by the shorter road to the definition of a king on my own.
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YES, SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: I say that we should have begun at first by dividing land animals into biped and quadruped; and since the winged herd, and that alone, comes out in the same class with man, we should divide bipeds into those which have feathers and those which have not, and when they have been divided, and the art of the management of mankind is brought to light, the time will have come to produce our Statesman and ruler, and set him like a charioteer in his place, and hand over to him the reins of state, for that too is a vocation which belongs to him.
STRANGER: I think we should have started by categorizing land animals into those that walk on two legs and those that walk on four. Since only flying animals fall into the same group as humans, we should split bipeds into those with feathers and those without. Once we've made these divisions and figured out how to manage people, it will be time to bring forth our Statesman and leader, placing him in his role like a charioteer and giving him control over the state, as that's also a role meant for him.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good; you have paid me the debt,—I mean, that you have completed the argument, and I suppose that you added the digression by way of interest. (Compare Republic.)
YOUNG SOCRATES: Great; you've settled the debt—I mean, you've finished the argument, and I guess you included the digression for added interest. (Compare Republic.)
STRANGER: Then now, let us go back to the beginning, and join the links, which together make the definition of the name of the Statesman's art.
STRANGER: So now, let's go back to the start and connect the pieces that together define what it means to be a Statesman.
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: The science of pure knowledge had, as we said originally, a part which was the science of rule or command, and from this was derived another part, which was called command-for-self, on the analogy of selling-for-self; an important section of this was the management of living animals, and this again was further limited to the management of them in herds; and again in herds of pedestrian animals. The chief division of the latter was the art of managing pedestrian animals which are without horns; this again has a part which can only be comprehended under one term by joining together three names—shepherding pure-bred animals. The only further subdivision is the art of man-herding,—this has to do with bipeds, and is what we were seeking after, and have now found, being at once the royal and political.
STRANGER: The study of pure knowledge originally included a part that dealt with control or authority, which led to another part known as self-command, similar to selling for oneself. A significant section of this focused on managing living creatures, which was further narrowed down to managing them in groups, specifically in groups of walking animals. The main category here was the skill of managing walking animals that are hornless; this category can only be summed up under one term by combining three names—managing purebred animals. The only additional category is the art of managing humans—this pertains to bipeds and is what we were looking for, which we have now discovered, as it encompasses both royal and political aspects.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And do you think, Socrates, that we really have done as you say?
STRANGER: So, Socrates, do you really think we've actually done what you say?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s happening?
STRANGER: Do you think, I mean, that we have really fulfilled our intention?—There has been a sort of discussion, and yet the investigation seems to me not to be perfectly worked out: this is where the enquiry fails.
STRANGER: Do you think we’ve really accomplished what we set out to do? There’s been some discussion, but the investigation seems to me to be incomplete: this is where the inquiry falls short.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not understand.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I don't get it.
STRANGER: I will try to make the thought, which is at this moment present in my mind, clearer to us both.
STRANGER: I will try to make the thought that's currently in my mind clearer for both of us.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I'm listening.
STRANGER: There were many arts of shepherding, and one of them was the political, which had the charge of one particular herd?
STRANGER: There were many ways to shepherd, and one of them was political, which was responsible for one specific group?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And this the argument defined to be the art of rearing, not horses or other brutes, but the art of rearing man collectively?
STRANGER: So, is this what we're calling the art of nurturing, not just horses or other beasts, but the art of nurturing humanity as a whole?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: Note, however, a difference which distinguishes the king from all other shepherds.
STRANGER: However, note a difference that sets the king apart from all other shepherds.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: I want to ask, whether any one of the other herdsmen has a rival who professes and claims to share with him in the management of the herd?
STRANGER: I want to ask if any of the other herdsmen has a rival who claims to share in managing the herd.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: I mean to say that merchants, husbandmen, providers of food, and also training-masters and physicians, will all contend with the herdsmen of humanity, whom we call Statesmen, declaring that they themselves have the care of rearing or managing mankind, and that they rear not only the common herd, but also the rulers themselves.
STRANGER: What I’m saying is that merchants, farmers, food providers, as well as trainers and doctors, will all argue with the herdsmen of humanity, whom we refer to as Statesmen, claiming that they themselves are responsible for raising or guiding people, and that they not only care for the general population but also for the leaders themselves.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Are they not right in saying so?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Are they wrong to say that?
STRANGER: Very likely they may be, and we will consider their claim. But we are certain of this,—that no one will raise a similar claim as against the herdsman, who is allowed on all hands to be the sole and only feeder and physician of his herd; he is also their match-maker and accoucheur; no one else knows that department of science. And he is their merry-maker and musician, as far as their nature is susceptible of such influences, and no one can console and soothe his own herd better than he can, either with the natural tones of his voice or with instruments. And the same may be said of tenders of animals in general.
STRANGER: They probably will, and we’ll look into their claims. But we’re sure of this: no one will make a similar claim against the herdsman, who is widely recognized as the only person responsible for feeding and treating his herd. He’s also their matchmaker and delivers their young; nobody else knows that field of expertise. He's their entertainer and musician to the extent that they can be influenced, and no one can comfort and soothe his own herd better than he can, whether with his natural voice or with instruments. The same goes for caretakers of animals in general.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: But if this is as you say, can our argument about the king be true and unimpeachable? Were we right in selecting him out of ten thousand other claimants to be the shepherd and rearer of the human flock?
STRANGER: But if this is true as you say, can our argument about the king really hold up? Were we justified in choosing him from ten thousand other claimants to be the protector and guide of humanity?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Surely not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No way.
STRANGER: Had we not reason just to now to apprehend, that although we may have described a sort of royal form, we have not as yet accurately worked out the true image of the Statesman? and that we cannot reveal him as he truly is in his own nature, until we have disengaged and separated him from those who hang about him and claim to share in his prerogatives?
STRANGER: Don't we have a good reason now to realize that although we've described a kind of royal figure, we haven't yet accurately depicted the true image of the Statesman? We can't show him for who he really is in his essence until we've separated him from those who surround him and try to share in his powers?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And that, Socrates, is what we must do, if we do not mean to bring disgrace upon the argument at its close.
STRANGER: And that's what we need to do, Socrates, if we don't want to bring shame on the argument when it wraps up.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We must certainly avoid that.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We definitely need to steer clear of that.
STRANGER: Then let us make a new beginning, and travel by a different road.
STRANGER: Then let's start fresh and take a different path.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What road?
What path?
STRANGER: I think that we may have a little amusement; there is a famous tale, of which a good portion may with advantage be interwoven, and then we may resume our series of divisions, and proceed in the old path until we arrive at the desired summit. Shall we do as I say?
STRANGER: I think we could have a bit of fun; there's a well-known story that we could mix in, and then we can continue with our usual topics and stay on the same path until we reach our goal. What do you think?
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Listen, then, to a tale which a child would love to hear; and you are not too old for childish amusement.
STRANGER: Listen to a story that a child would love; you're not too old for some simple fun.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let me hear.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I'm listening.
STRANGER: There did really happen, and will again happen, like many other events of which ancient tradition has preserved the record, the portent which is traditionally said to have occurred in the quarrel of Atreus and Thyestes. You have heard, no doubt, and remember what they say happened at that time?
STRANGER: It actually happened, and it will happen again, just like many other events that ancient tradition has documented, the omen that is said to have occurred during the dispute between Atreus and Thyestes. You've heard about it, right? And do you remember what they say happened back then?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I suppose you to mean the token of the birth of the golden lamb.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I think you mean the sign of the birth of the golden lamb.
STRANGER: No, not that; but another part of the story, which tells how the sun and the stars once rose in the west, and set in the east, and that the god reversed their motion, and gave them that which they now have as a testimony to the right of Atreus.
STRANGER: No, not that; but another part of the story, which tells how the sun and the stars once rose in the west and set in the east, and that the god changed their path and gave them what they now have as proof of Atreus's rights.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes; there is that legend also.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, that legend exists too.
STRANGER: Again, we have been often told of the reign of Cronos.
STRANGER: Once again, we've been frequently told about the reign of Cronos.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, very often.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, all the time.
STRANGER: Did you ever hear that the men of former times were earth-born, and not begotten of one another?
STRANGER: Have you ever heard that men in ancient times were born from the earth, and not conceived from one another?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, that is another old tradition.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, that's another old tradition.
STRANGER: All these stories, and ten thousand others which are still more wonderful, have a common origin; many of them have been lost in the lapse of ages, or are repeated only in a disconnected form; but the origin of them is what no one has told, and may as well be told now; for the tale is suited to throw light on the nature of the king.
STRANGER: All these stories, and ten thousand others that are even more amazing, have a common origin; many of them have been lost over the years or are told only in bits and pieces; but the origin of them is something no one has shared, and it might as well be shared now; because the story is helpful in understanding the nature of the king.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good; and I hope that you will give the whole story, and leave out nothing.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That sounds great, and I hope you'll share the entire story and not skip any details.
STRANGER: Listen, then. There is a time when God himself guides and helps to roll the world in its course; and there is a time, on the completion of a certain cycle, when he lets go, and the world being a living creature, and having originally received intelligence from its author and creator, turns about and by an inherent necessity revolves in the opposite direction.
STRANGER: Listen up. There comes a time when God himself directs and helps the world move forward; and there comes a time, upon the completion of a certain cycle, when he releases control, and the world, being a living being and having initially gained wisdom from its creator, turns around and, by its very nature, starts to move in the opposite direction.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why is that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why is that?
STRANGER: Why, because only the most divine things of all remain ever unchanged and the same, and body is not included in this class. Heaven and the universe, as we have termed them, although they have been endowed by the Creator with many glories, partake of a bodily nature, and therefore cannot be entirely free from perturbation. But their motion is, as far as possible, single and in the same place, and of the same kind; and is therefore only subject to a reversal, which is the least alteration possible. For the lord of all moving things is alone able to move of himself; and to think that he moves them at one time in one direction and at another time in another is blasphemy. Hence we must not say that the world is either self-moved always, or all made to go round by God in two opposite courses; or that two Gods, having opposite purposes, make it move round. But as I have already said (and this is the only remaining alternative) the world is guided at one time by an external power which is divine and receives fresh life and immortality from the renewing hand of the Creator, and again, when let go, moves spontaneously, being set free at such a time as to have, during infinite cycles of years, a reverse movement: this is due to its perfect balance, to its vast size, and to the fact that it turns on the smallest pivot.
STRANGER: Well, because only the most divine things stay completely unchanged, and the body doesn’t belong to that category. Heaven and the universe, as we’ve called them, although they’ve been given many wonders by the Creator, have a physical nature and therefore can’t be entirely free from disturbance. But their motion is, as much as possible, uniform and in the same direction and of the same type; thus, it’s only subject to a reversal, which is the smallest change possible. For the master of all moving things is the only one who can move on his own; believing that he moves them one way at one time and another way at another time is blasphemous. So we shouldn’t say that the world is either always self-moved, or that God moves it in two opposite directions; or that two gods with opposite intentions make it revolve. But as I’ve mentioned before (and this is the only other option), the world is sometimes guided by an external divine power that receives new life and immortality from the Creator’s renewing touch, and at other times, when it’s released, it moves on its own, having periods of reverse motion over countless cycles of years: this is due to its perfect balance, its immense size, and the fact that it rotates on the tiniest pivot.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Your account of the world seems to be very reasonable indeed.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Your view of the world seems really reasonable.
STRANGER: Let us now reflect and try to gather from what has been said the nature of the phenomenon which we affirmed to be the cause of all these wonders. It is this.
STRANGER: Let's take a moment to think and see if we can figure out from what we've discussed the nature of the phenomenon that we claimed is responsible for all these wonders. It is this.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Huh?
STRANGER: The reversal which takes place from time to time of the motion of the universe.
STRANGER: The occasional reversal of the universe's motion.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How is that the cause?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How is that the reason?
STRANGER: Of all changes of the heavenly motions, we may consider this to be the greatest and most complete.
STRANGER: Out of all the changes in the movements of the heavens, this one seems to be the greatest and most thorough.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I should imagine so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I guess that makes sense.
STRANGER: And it may be supposed to result in the greatest changes to the human beings who are the inhabitants of the world at the time.
STRANGER: And it can be expected to lead to the biggest changes for the people living in the world at that time.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Such changes would naturally occur.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Those changes would naturally happen.
STRANGER: And animals, as we know, survive with difficulty great and serious changes of many different kinds when they come upon them at once.
STRANGER: Animals, as we know, struggle to survive when they encounter significant and serious changes of many different kinds all at once.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Hence there necessarily occurs a great destruction of them, which extends also to the life of man; few survivors of the race are left, and those who remain become the subjects of several novel and remarkable phenomena, and of one in particular, which takes place at the time when the transition is made to the cycle opposite to that in which we are now living.
STRANGER: As a result, there’s a huge loss of them, which also affects human life; only a few of the race survive, and those who do experience several new and remarkable events, especially one that happens when we shift to the opposite cycle from the one we’re currently in.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's that?
STRANGER: The life of all animals first came to a standstill, and the mortal nature ceased to be or look older, and was then reversed and grew young and delicate; the white locks of the aged darkened again, and the cheeks the bearded man became smooth, and recovered their former bloom; the bodies of youths in their prime grew softer and smaller, continually by day and night returning and becoming assimilated to the nature of a newly-born child in mind as well as body; in the succeeding stage they wasted away and wholly disappeared. And the bodies of those who died by violence at that time quickly passed through the like changes, and in a few days were no more seen.
STRANGER: The lives of all animals came to a halt, and their mortal nature stopped aging or appearing older; then it reversed and became youthful and delicate again. The white hair of the elderly darkened once more, and the faces of bearded men became smooth, regaining their former color. The bodies of young adults grew softer and smaller, continuously transforming, day and night, into the state of a newborn child, both in mind and body. In the next stage, they faded away completely and disappeared. The bodies of those who died violently at that time quickly underwent similar changes and were no longer seen after just a few days.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then how, Stranger, were the animals created in those days; and in what way were they begotten of one another?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then how, Stranger, were the animals created back then; and how did they reproduce with one another?
STRANGER: It is evident, Socrates, that there was no such thing in the then order of nature as the procreation of animals from one another; the earth-born race, of which we hear in story, was the one which existed in those days—they rose again from the ground; and of this tradition, which is now-a-days often unduly discredited, our ancestors, who were nearest in point of time to the end of the last period and came into being at the beginning of this, are to us the heralds. And mark how consistent the sequel of the tale is; after the return of age to youth, follows the return of the dead, who are lying in the earth, to life; simultaneously with the reversal of the world the wheel of their generation has been turned back, and they are put together and rise and live in the opposite order, unless God has carried any of them away to some other lot. According to this tradition they of necessity sprang from the earth and have the name of earth-born, and so the above legend clings to them.
STRANGER: It's clear, Socrates, that back then, animals didn’t reproduce with one another; the earth-born race we hear about in stories was the one that existed during that time—they came back from the ground. Our ancestors, who were closest in time to the end of the last era and who came into being at the start of this one, are the ones who pass this tradition down to us, which is often unfairly dismissed today. And notice how consistent the story is; after age returns to youth, the dead who are buried in the earth come back to life. At the same time that the world is reversed, the cycle of their generation has been turned back, so they come together and rise again in the opposite order, unless God has taken any of them to another fate. According to this tradition, they necessarily came from the earth and are called earth-born, which is why this legend is attached to them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly that is quite consistent with what has preceded; but tell me, was the life which you said existed in the reign of Cronos in that cycle of the world, or in this? For the change in the course of the stars and the sun must have occurred in both.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That definitely aligns with what has come before; but tell me, was the life you mentioned during Cronos' reign in that era of the world, or in this one? Because the shift in the path of the stars and the sun must have happened in both.
STRANGER: I see that you enter into my meaning;—no, that blessed and spontaneous life does not belong to the present cycle of the world, but to the previous one, in which God superintended the whole revolution of the universe; and the several parts the universe were distributed under the rule of certain inferior deities, as is the way in some places still. There were demigods, who were the shepherds of the various species and herds of animals, and each one was in all respects sufficient for those of whom he was the shepherd; neither was there any violence, or devouring of one another, or war or quarrel among them; and I might tell of ten thousand other blessings, which belonged to that dispensation. The reason why the life of man was, as tradition says, spontaneous, is as follows: In those days God himself was their shepherd, and ruled over them, just as man, who is by comparison a divine being, still rules over the lower animals. Under him there were no forms of government or separate possession of women and children; for all men rose again from the earth, having no memory of the past. And although they had nothing of this sort, the earth gave them fruits in abundance, which grew on trees and shrubs unbidden, and were not planted by the hand of man. And they dwelt naked, and mostly in the open air, for the temperature of their seasons was mild; and they had no beds, but lay on soft couches of grass, which grew plentifully out of the earth. Such was the life of man in the days of Cronos, Socrates; the character of our present life, which is said to be under Zeus, you know from your own experience. Can you, and will you, determine which of them you deem the happier?
STRANGER: I see that you understand what I'm saying;—no, that blessed and natural way of life doesn’t belong to our current world, but to the one before it, where God oversaw the entire universe’s cycle; and the various parts of the universe were ruled by certain lesser deities, as still happens in some places. There were demigods who tended to different species and herds of animals, and each was completely capable for the ones they looked after; there was no violence, no consuming one another, and no wars or disputes among them; and I could share countless other blessings that came with that era. The reason why human life was, as the tradition teaches, spontaneous, is this: Back then, God himself was their shepherd and ruled over them, just as man, who is a divine being in comparison, still governs the lower animals. There were no governments or private ownership of women and children; every person emerged from the earth, without any memory of the past. And even though they lacked these things, the earth provided them abundant fruits, which grew on trees and shrubs without being planted by humans. They lived without clothes, mostly outdoors, since the weather was mild; they had no beds, but rested on soft grass that grew abundantly from the ground. Such was human life in the days of Cronos, Socrates; you know from your own experience the nature of our current life, said to be under Zeus. Can you, and will you, decide which of the two you believe was happier?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No way.
STRANGER: Then shall I determine for you as well as I can?
STRANGER: Should I go ahead and figure this out for you as best as I can?
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: Suppose that the nurslings of Cronos, having this boundless leisure, and the power of holding intercourse, not only with men, but with the brute creation, had used all these advantages with a view to philosophy, conversing with the brutes as well as with one another, and learning of every nature which was gifted with any special power, and was able to contribute some special experience to the store of wisdom, there would be no difficulty in deciding that they would be a thousand times happier than the men of our own day. Or, again, if they had merely eaten and drunk until they were full, and told stories to one another and to the animals—such stories as are now attributed to them—in this case also, as I should imagine, the answer would be easy. But until some satisfactory witness can be found of the love of that age for knowledge and discussion, we had better let the matter drop, and give the reason why we have unearthed this tale, and then we shall be able to get on. In the fulness of time, when the change was to take place, and the earth-born race had all perished, and every soul had completed its proper cycle of births and been sown in the earth her appointed number of times, the pilot of the universe let the helm go, and retired to his place of view; and then Fate and innate desire reversed the motion of the world. Then also all the inferior deities who share the rule of the supreme power, being informed of what was happening, let go the parts of the world which were under their control. And the world turning round with a sudden shock, being impelled in an opposite direction from beginning to end, was shaken by a mighty earthquake, which wrought a new destruction of all manner of animals. Afterwards, when sufficient time had elapsed, the tumult and confusion and earthquake ceased, and the universal creature, once more at peace, attained to a calm, and settled down into his own orderly and accustomed course, having the charge and rule of himself and of all the creatures which are contained in him, and executing, as far as he remembered them, the instructions of his Father and Creator, more precisely at first, but afterwords with less exactness. The reason of the falling off was the admixture of matter in him; this was inherent in the primal nature, which was full of disorder, until attaining to the present order. From God, the constructor, the world received all that is good in him, but from a previous state came elements of evil and unrighteousness, which, thence derived, first of all passed into the world, and were then transmitted to the animals. While the world was aided by the pilot in nurturing the animals, the evil was small, and great the good which he produced, but after the separation, when the world was let go, at first all proceeded well enough; but, as time went on, there was more and more forgetting, and the old discord again held sway and burst forth in full glory; and at last small was the good, and great was the admixture of evil, and there was a danger of universal ruin to the world, and to the things contained in him. Wherefore God, the orderer of all, in his tender care, seeing that the world was in great straits, and fearing that all might be dissolved in the storm and disappear in infinite chaos, again seated himself at the helm; and bringing back the elements which had fallen into dissolution and disorder to the motion which had prevailed under his dispensation, he set them in order and restored them, and made the world imperishable and immortal. And this is the whole tale, of which the first part will suffice to illustrate the nature of the king. For when the world turned towards the present cycle of generation, the age of man again stood still, and a change opposite to the previous one was the result. The small creatures which had almost disappeared grew in and stature, and the newly-born children of the earth became grey and died and sank into the earth again. All things changed, imitating and following the condition of the universe, and of necessity agreeing with that in their mode of conception and generation and nurture; for no animal was any longer allowed to come into being in the earth through the agency of other creative beings, but as the world was ordained to be the lord of his own progress, in like manner the parts were ordained to grow and generate and give nourishment, as far as they could, of themselves, impelled by a similar movement. And so we have arrived at the real end of this discourse; for although there might be much to tell of the lower animals, and of the condition out of which they changed and of the causes of the change, about men there is not much, and that little is more to the purpose. Deprived of the care of God, who had possessed and tended them, they were left helpless and defenceless, and were torn in pieces by the beasts, who were naturally fierce and had now grown wild. And in the first ages they were still without skill or resource; the food which once grew spontaneously had failed, and as yet they knew not how to procure it, because they had never felt the pressure of necessity. For all these reasons they were in a great strait; wherefore also the gifts spoken of in the old tradition were imparted to man by the gods, together with so much teaching and education as was indispensable; fire was given to them by Prometheus, the arts by Hephaestus and his fellow-worker, Athene, seeds and plants by others. From these is derived all that has helped to frame human life; since the care of the Gods, as I was saying, had now failed men, and they had to order their course of life for themselves, and were their own masters, just like the universal creature whom they imitate and follow, ever changing, as he changes, and ever living and growing, at one time in one manner, and at another time in another. Enough of the story, which may be of use in showing us how greatly we erred in the delineation of the king and the statesman in our previous discourse.
STRANGER: Imagine if the children of Cronos, having endless free time and the ability to interact not just with humans but also with animals, had made the most of these advantages for the sake of philosophy, talking with the animals as well as each other, and learning from every being gifted with special abilities that could add unique experiences to the pool of knowledge. In that case, it would be easy to conclude that they would be a thousand times happier than the people of our time. Alternatively, if they had simply eaten and drunk to their fill and shared stories with one another and the animals—stories similar to those now attributed to them—it seems this answer would also be straightforward. However, until we can find some reliable evidence of that era's passion for knowledge and discussion, we should leave this topic for now and explain why we have brought this tale to light, and then we can move forward. When the time was right for change, and the race born from the earth had all vanished, with every soul having completed its necessary cycle of rebirths and been buried in the earth the appointed number of times, the captain of the universe loosened the controls and stepped back to observe; then Fate and inherent desire altered the world's motion. At that time, all the lesser deities sharing the authority of the supreme power, realizing what was happening, released their hold over the parts of the world they governed. The world abruptly turned backwards, propelled in the opposite direction from start to finish, shaken by a tremendous earthquake that caused new destruction of all kinds of creatures. Later, after sufficient time passed, the turmoil, chaos, and earthquake subsided, and the cosmos, now peaceful, returned to a serene and orderly state, governing itself and all the beings contained within it, following, to the best of its recollection, the guidance of its Father and Creator—more closely at first, but later with less precision. The reason for this decline was the mingling of matter within it; this was intrinsic to its primal nature, which was chaotic until it achieved its current order. From God, the creator, the world received all that is good, but it also inherited elements of evil and injustice from a prior state, which first entered the world and were then passed down to the animals. While the world was supported by the pilot in nurturing the creatures, the evil was minor, and the good he produced was significant. However, after the separation, when the world was let go, initially everything went relatively well; but as time passed, there was increasing forgetfulness, and old discord re-emerged in full force. Ultimately, the good diminished while the mixture of evil expanded, leading to the risk of total destruction for the world and all that it contained. Therefore, God, the orchestrator of all, in his compassion, saw that the world was in serious trouble and feared that everything might dissolve in the chaos and vanish into endless disarray. He then resumed his position at the helm; and by redirecting the elements that had fallen into chaos and disorder back to the motion that had existed under his guidance, he organized and restored them, making the world imperishable and immortal. This is the entire story, of which the first part is sufficient to illustrate the nature of the king. When the world turned towards the current cycle of generation, humanity's age once again came to a halt, resulting in a change opposite to the previous one. The small creatures that had nearly vanished grew in size and stature, and the newly-born children of the earth aged, died, and sank back into the ground. Everything transformed, imitating and aligning with the universe's state, and inevitably harmonizing with it in their methods of conception, generation, and nurturing; because no animal was now allowed to exist on earth via the agency of other creative forces. Rather, as the world was designed to be the master of its own progress, so too were its parts meant to grow, reproduce, and provide nourishment to the best of their ability on their own, compelled by a similar motion. Thus, we have reached the true conclusion of this discourse; although there could be so much to tell about the lower animals, their conditions, and the reasons for change, there is little worth mentioning about humans, and that little is more pertinent. Stripped of God's care, who had nurtured and guided them, they were left vulnerable and defenseless, and were torn apart by the fierce beasts that had turned wild. In the early ages, they still lacked skill and resourcefulness; the food that had once grown freely had disappeared, and they didn't yet know how to obtain it, having never faced the urgency of need. For all these reasons, they found themselves in a severe predicament; thus, the gifts mentioned in ancient tradition were bestowed upon humans by the gods, along with necessary knowledge and education; Prometheus gave them fire, the arts were provided by Hephaestus and his ally Athene, and seeds and plants were gifted by others. From these sources came everything that helped shape human life; since, as I previously stated, God's care had now withdrawn from humans, leaving them to navigate their own lives and become their own masters, much like the universal creature they emulate and follow, constantly changing as it changes, and continuously living and growing, sometimes in one way, and at other times in another. That is enough of the story, which can serve to show just how much we erred in our earlier depiction of the king and the statesman.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was this great error of which you speak?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was this big mistake you’re talking about?
STRANGER: There were two; the first a lesser one, the other was an error on a much larger and grander scale.
STRANGER: There were two; the first was a minor mistake, the other was a much bigger and more significant error.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you trying to say?
STRANGER: I mean to say that when we were asked about a king and statesman of the present cycle and generation, we told of a shepherd of a human flock who belonged to the other cycle, and of one who was a god when he ought to have been a man; and this a great error. Again, we declared him to be the ruler of the entire State, without explaining how: this was not the whole truth, nor very intelligible; but still it was true, and therefore the second error was not so great as the first.
STRANGER: What I mean is that when we were asked about a king and leader of our time, we talked about a shepherd of a human group from a different era, and about someone who was like a god when he should have been a regular human; and that's a major mistake. Additionally, we stated he was the ruler of the whole State without clarifying how that was the case: that wasn't the complete truth, and it wasn't very clear; but it was still true, so the second mistake wasn't as bad as the first.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
Young Socrates: Great.
STRANGER: Before we can expect to have a perfect description of the statesman we must define the nature of his office.
STRANGER: Before we can hope to have a complete description of the statesman, we need to define the nature of his role.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: And the myth was introduced in order to show, not only that all others are rivals of the true shepherd who is the object of our search, but in order that we might have a clearer view of him who is alone worthy to receive this appellation, because he alone of shepherds and herdsmen, according to the image which we have employed, has the care of human beings.
STRANGER: The myth was created to demonstrate that everyone else is a competitor to the true shepherd, who is the focus of our search. It also helps us better understand the one who truly deserves this title, because he alone, among all shepherds and herdsmen—using the image we've discussed—takes care of human beings.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And I cannot help thinking, Socrates, that the form of the divine shepherd is even higher than that of a king; whereas the statesmen who are now on earth seem to be much more like their subjects in character, and much more nearly to partake of their breeding and education.
STRANGER: And I can't help but think, Socrates, that the idea of the divine shepherd is even greater than that of a king; meanwhile, the politicians we see today seem to be much more like their people in personality, and more similar in their background and education.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Still they must be investigated all the same, to see whether, like the divine shepherd, they are above their subjects or on a level with them.
STRANGER: They still need to be looked into, to find out whether, like the divine shepherd, they are above their subjects or on the same level as them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely.
STRANGER: To resume:—Do you remember that we spoke of a command-for-self exercised over animals, not singly but collectively, which we called the art of rearing a herd?
STRANGER: To get back to our discussion: Do you recall that we talked about a command for self-control used over animals, not individually but as a group, which we referred to as the art of raising a herd?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, I remember.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, I remember.
STRANGER: There, somewhere, lay our error; for we never included or mentioned the Statesman; and we did not observe that he had no place in our nomenclature.
STRANGER: There, somewhere, was our mistake; we never included or mentioned the Statesman, and we didn’t notice that he had no role in our terminology.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How was that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How was that?
STRANGER: All other herdsmen 'rear' their herds, but this is not a suitable term to apply to the Statesman; we should use a name which is common to them all.
STRANGER: All other herdsmen 'raise' their herds, but this isn't the right term for the Statesman; we should use a name that fits all of them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True, if there be such a name.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true, if that name even exists.
STRANGER: Why, is not 'care' of herds applicable to all? For this implies no feeding, or any special duty; if we say either 'tending' the herds, or 'managing' the herds, or 'having the care' of them, the same word will include all, and then we may wrap up the Statesman with the rest, as the argument seems to require.
STRANGER: Isn't 'taking care' of herds something that applies to everyone? This doesn't involve feeding or any specific duty; if we say 'tending' the herds, or 'managing' the herds, or 'caring for' them, the same term covers everything, and then we can include the Statesman with the others, as the argument suggests.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite right; but how shall we take the next step in the division?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true; but how do we move forward with the next step in the division?
STRANGER: As before we divided the art of 'rearing' herds accordingly as they were land or water herds, winged and wingless, mixing or not mixing the breed, horned and hornless, so we may divide by these same differences the 'tending' of herds, comprehending in our definition the kingship of to-day and the rule of Cronos.
STRANGER: Just as we previously categorized the art of 'raising' herds based on whether they were land or water herds, with wings or without, mixing or not mixing the breeds, horned or hornless, we can also divide the 'caring for' herds by these same distinctions, including in our definition the kingship of today and the rule of Cronos.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is clear; but I still ask, what is to follow.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That makes sense; but I still want to know what comes next.
STRANGER: If the word had been 'managing' herds, instead of feeding or rearing them, no one would have argued that there was no care of men in the case of the politician, although it was justly contended, that there was no human art of feeding them which was worthy of the name, or at least, if there were, many a man had a prior and greater right to share in such an art than any king.
STRANGER: If the term had been 'managing' herds instead of feeding or raising them, no one would have disputed that the politician didn't care about people. However, it was rightly argued that there wasn’t any genuine skill in feeding them that deserved to be called that, or at least, if there was, many individuals had a better right to participate in such a skill than any king.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: But no other art or science will have a prior or better right than the royal science to care for human society and to rule over men in general.
STRANGER: But no other art or science has a greater claim or right than the royal science to look after human society and to govern people overall.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Totally right.
STRANGER: In the next place, Socrates, we must surely notice that a great error was committed at the end of our analysis.
STRANGER: Next, Socrates, we should definitely point out that a major mistake was made at the end of our analysis.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was that?
STRANGER: Why, supposing we were ever so sure that there is such an art as the art of rearing or feeding bipeds, there was no reason why we should call this the royal or political art, as though there were no more to be said.
STRANGER: Well, even if we were completely convinced that there's such a thing as the art of raising or feeding humans, that doesn't mean we should refer to it as the royal or political art, as if there's nothing else to consider.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: Our first duty, as we were saying, was to remodel the name, so as to have the notion of care rather than of feeding, and then to divide, for there may be still considerable divisions.
STRANGER: Our primary responsibility, as we mentioned, was to change the name to emphasize the idea of care instead of just feeding, and then to break it down further, since there might still be significant divisions.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can they be made?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can they be created?
STRANGER: First, by separating the divine shepherd from the human guardian or manager.
STRANGER: First, by separating the divine shepherd from the human caretaker or manager.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And the art of management which is assigned to man would again have to be subdivided.
STRANGER: And the art of management that is assigned to humans would again need to be divided.
YOUNG SOCRATES: On what principle?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s the principle?
STRANGER: On the principle of voluntary and compulsory.
STRANGER: Based on the principle of choice and obligation.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why?
STRANGER: Because, if I am not mistaken, there has been an error here; for our simplicity led us to rank king and tyrant together, whereas they are utterly distinct, like their modes of government.
STRANGER: Because, if I'm not mistaken, there's been a mistake here; our naivety made us group kings and tyrants together, but they are completely different, just like their styles of government.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Then, now, as I said, let us make the correction and divide human care into two parts, on the principle of voluntary and compulsory.
STRANGER: So, as I mentioned earlier, let’s correct that and break down human care into two categories: voluntary and compulsory.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sure.
STRANGER: And if we call the management of violent rulers tyranny, and the voluntary management of herds of voluntary bipeds politics, may we not further assert that he who has this latter art of management is the true king and statesman?
STRANGER: And if we label the control of violent rulers as tyranny and the deliberate guidance of groups of willing individuals as politics, can we not also claim that the person who possesses this art of management is the real king and statesman?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that we have now completed the account of the Statesman.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I think, Stranger, that we have now finished discussing the Statesman.
STRANGER: Would that we had, Socrates, but I have to satisfy myself as well as you; and in my judgment the figure of the king is not yet perfected; like statuaries who, in their too great haste, having overdone the several parts of their work, lose time in cutting them down, so too we, partly out of haste, partly out of a magnanimous desire to expose our former error, and also because we imagined that a king required grand illustrations, have taken up a marvellous lump of fable, and have been obliged to use more than was necessary. This made us discourse at large, and, nevertheless, the story never came to an end. And our discussion might be compared to a picture of some living being which had been fairly drawn in outline, but had not yet attained the life and clearness which is given by the blending of colours. Now to intelligent persons a living being had better be delineated by language and discourse than by any painting or work of art: to the duller sort by works of art.
STRANGER: I wish we could, Socrates, but I need to satisfy myself as well as you. In my opinion, the concept of the king isn’t fully developed yet. It's like artists who, in their eagerness, put too much effort into certain parts of their work and end up having to spend time fixing them. Similarly, we have, partly out of haste and partly due to a noble desire to correct our previous mistakes, taken on an elaborate myth and ended up using more than what was necessary. This led us to elaborate a lot, yet the story never seemed to conclude. Our discussion might be likened to a drawing of a living creature that has a clear outline but lacks the life and clarity that color blending provides. For insightful people, a living being is better described through language and conversation than through any painting or artwork; for those who are less perceptive, art is more effective.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true; but what is the imperfection which still remains? I wish that you would tell me.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's very true; but what imperfection is still there? I’d like you to tell me.
STRANGER: The higher ideas, my dear friend, can hardly be set forth except through the medium of examples; every man seems to know all things in a dreamy sort of way, and then again to wake up and to know nothing.
STRANGER: The big ideas, my dear friend, can hardly be explained without examples; it seems like everyone has a vague understanding of everything but then suddenly realizes they don’t know anything.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: I fear that I have been unfortunate in raising a question about our experience of knowledge.
STRANGER: I'm worried that I've been unlucky in asking a question about our understanding of knowledge.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why so?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why is that?
STRANGER: Why, because my 'example' requires the assistance of another example.
STRANGER: Well, because my 'example' needs help from another example.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Proceed; you need not fear that I shall tire.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Go ahead; you don't have to worry about me getting bored.
STRANGER: I will proceed, finding, as I do, such a ready listener in you: when children are beginning to know their letters—
STRANGER: I'll continue, since I have such an eager listener in you: when kids are starting to learn their letters—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you going to say?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you about to say?
STRANGER: That they distinguish the several letters well enough in very short and easy syllables, and are able to tell them correctly.
STRANGER: That they recognize the different letters well enough in very short and easy syllables, and can identify them correctly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Whereas in other syllables they do not recognize them, and think and speak falsely of them.
STRANGER: While in other syllables they don't recognize them, and think and speak falsely about them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Will not the best and easiest way of bringing them to a knowledge of what they do not as yet know be—
STRANGER: Isn't the best and simplest way to help them understand what they currently don't know—
YOUNG SOCRATES: Be what?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Be what now?
STRANGER: To refer them first of all to cases in which they judge correctly about the letters in question, and then to compare these with the cases in which they do not as yet know, and to show them that the letters are the same, and have the same character in both combinations, until all cases in which they are right have been placed side by side with all cases in which they are wrong. In this way they have examples, and are made to learn that each letter in every combination is always the same and not another, and is always called by the same name.
STRANGER: First, point them to examples where they correctly identify the letters in question. Then, compare these with cases where they still don’t know, showing them that the letters are the same and have the same characteristics in both instances. Continue this process until all the situations where they are right are lined up next to all the situations where they are wrong. This way, they have examples and learn that each letter in every combination is always the same and never different, and is always referred to by the same name.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sure.
STRANGER: Are not examples formed in this manner? We take a thing and compare it with another distinct instance of the same thing, of which we have a right conception, and out of the comparison there arises one true notion, which includes both of them.
STRANGER: Aren't examples made this way? We take one thing and compare it to another clear instance of the same thing, and from that comparison, we get one accurate idea that encompasses both.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That’s right.
STRANGER: Can we wonder, then, that the soul has the same uncertainty about the alphabet of things, and sometimes and in some cases is firmly fixed by the truth in each particular, and then, again, in other cases is altogether at sea; having somehow or other a correct notion of combinations; but when the elements are transferred into the long and difficult language (syllables) of facts, is again ignorant of them?
STRANGER: Can we really be surprised that the soul feels unsure about the basics of things, sometimes grasping the truth in specific situations, while at other times feeling completely lost? It has a decent understanding of how things fit together, but when those elements are expressed in the complex and challenging language of facts, it becomes confused again?
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is nothing wonderful in that.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That’s not amazing at all.
STRANGER: Could any one, my friend, who began with false opinion ever expect to arrive even at a small portion of truth and to attain wisdom?
STRANGER: Could anyone, my friend, who started with a false belief ever expect to reach even a small part of the truth and gain wisdom?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Hardly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Not really.
STRANGER: Then you and I will not be far wrong in trying to see the nature of example in general in a small and particular instance; afterwards from lesser things we intend to pass to the royal class, which is the highest form of the same nature, and endeavour to discover by rules of art what the management of cities is; and then the dream will become a reality to us.
STRANGER: So you and I won’t be too far off by looking at the nature of examples in a small, specific case; after that, we plan to move from smaller things to the highest class, which represents the best of the same nature, and try to find out through artistic principles how to manage cities; then the dream will become a reality for us.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Then, once more, let us resume the previous argument, and as there were innumerable rivals of the royal race who claim to have the care of states, let us part them all off, and leave him alone; and, as I was saying, a model or example of this process has first to be framed.
STRANGER: Then, once again, let’s pick up our earlier discussion. Since there are countless competitors from the royal lineage who say they should take care of the states, let’s separate them all out and focus on him alone. As I mentioned before, we first need to create a model or example of this process.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: What model is there which is small, and yet has any analogy with the political occupation? Suppose, Socrates, that if we have no other example at hand, we choose weaving, or, more precisely, weaving of wool—this will be quite enough, without taking the whole of weaving, to illustrate our meaning?
STRANGER: Is there a small model that relates to the political field? Let's say, Socrates, if we don't have any other examples available, we choose weaving, specifically, wool weaving—this should be enough to illustrate our point without needing to cover all of weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Why should we not apply to weaving the same processes of division and subdivision which we have already applied to other classes; going once more as rapidly as we can through all the steps until we come to that which is needed for our purpose?
STRANGER: Why shouldn’t we use the same processes of division and subdivision for weaving that we’ve already used for other classes? Let’s quickly go through all the steps again until we reach what we need for our purpose.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: I shall reply by actually performing the process.
STRANGER: I'll respond by doing the process right now.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Awesome.
STRANGER: All things which we make or acquire are either creative or preventive; of the preventive class are antidotes, divine and human, and also defences; and defences are either military weapons or protections; and protections are veils, and also shields against heat and cold, and shields against heat and cold are shelters and coverings; and coverings are blankets and garments; and garments are some of them in one piece, and others of them are made in several parts; and of these latter some are stitched, others are fastened and not stitched; and of the not stitched, some are made of the sinews of plants, and some of hair; and of these, again, some are cemented with water and earth, and others are fastened together by themselves. And these last defences and coverings which are fastened together by themselves are called clothes, and the art which superintends them we may call, from the nature of the operation, the art of clothing, just as before the art of the Statesman was derived from the State; and may we not say that the art of weaving, at least that largest portion of it which was concerned with the making of clothes, differs only in name from this art of clothing, in the same way that, in the previous case, the royal science differed from the political?
STRANGER: Everything we create or acquire falls into one of two categories: creative or preventive. The preventive category includes antidotes, whether divine or human, as well as defenses. Defenses can be military weapons or protective measures; protections can be veils and shields against heat and cold. Shields against heat and cold take the form of shelters and coverings. Coverings consist of blankets and garments. Some garments are in one piece, while others are made of several parts. Among those that are made from multiple parts, some are stitched, while others are not stitched but fastened. Of the unstiched ones, some are made from plant fibers and some from hair. These, in turn, can be bound with water and earth, or they can hold together on their own. The last type of defense and covering that holds together by itself is called clothes, and the skill that oversees this is known as the art of clothing, similar to how the art of the Statesman derives from the State. Can't we say that the art of weaving, particularly the part that focuses on making clothes, is essentially the same as the art of clothing, just as the royal science differs from the political one?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: In the next place, let us make the reflection, that the art of weaving clothes, which an incompetent person might fancy to have been sufficiently described, has been separated off from several others which are of the same family, but not from the co-operative arts.
STRANGER: Next, let's consider that the craft of making clothes, which someone unqualified might think has been fully explained, has been set apart from several related crafts, but not from the collaborative arts.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And which are the kindred arts?
YOUNG SOCRATES: And what are the related arts?
STRANGER: I see that I have not taken you with me. So I think that we had better go backwards, starting from the end. We just now parted off from the weaving of clothes, the making of blankets, which differ from each other in that one is put under and the other is put around: and these are what I termed kindred arts.
STRANGER: I see that I haven't brought you along. So I think we should go back, starting from the end. We just separated from weaving clothes and making blankets, which are different in that one goes underneath and the other goes around: and these are what I called related arts.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I understand.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Got it.
STRANGER: And we have subtracted the manufacture of all articles made of flax and cords, and all that we just now metaphorically termed the sinews of plants, and we have also separated off the process of felting and the putting together of materials by stitching and sewing, of which the most important part is the cobbler's art.
STRANGER: We’ve removed the production of all items made from flax and cords, and everything we just referred to metaphorically as the lifeblood of plants. We've also set aside the process of felting and the assembly of materials through stitching and sewing, with the cobbler's craft being the most significant aspect of that.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Precisely.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: Then we separated off the currier's art, which prepared coverings in entire pieces, and the art of sheltering, and subtracted the various arts of making water-tight which are employed in building, and in general in carpentering, and in other crafts, and all such arts as furnish impediments to thieving and acts of violence, and are concerned with making the lids of boxes and the fixing of doors, being divisions of the art of joining; and we also cut off the manufacture of arms, which is a section of the great and manifold art of making defences; and we originally began by parting off the whole of the magic art which is concerned with antidotes, and have left, as would appear, the very art of which we were in search, the art of protection against winter cold, which fabricates woollen defences, and has the name of weaving.
STRANGER: Then we separated the craft of the currier, which makes full pieces for covering, and the skill of providing shelter, and removed the different methods of making things waterproof used in construction, carpentry, and other trades, along with all the techniques that prevent stealing and violence, such as making box lids and installing doors, which are part of the joining trade. We also excluded the production of weapons, which is a part of the larger art of creating defenses. We initially started by breaking away the entire magical art focused on antidotes and have ended up, it seems, with precisely the craft we were looking for: the skill that protects against the cold of winter, which creates woolen coverings and is called weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Yes, my boy, but that is not all; for the first process to which the material is subjected is the opposite of weaving.
STRANGER: Yes, my boy, but that's not all; because the first process that the material goes through is the opposite of weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How come?
STRANGER: Weaving is a sort of uniting?
STRANGER: Is weaving a way of bringing things together?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: But the first process is a separation of the clotted and matted fibres?
STRANGER: But isn't the first step to separate the clotted and tangled fibers?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: I mean the work of the carder's art; for we cannot say that carding is weaving, or that the carder is a weaver.
STRANGER: I mean the craft of the carder; because we can’t say that carding is the same as weaving, or that a carder is a weaver.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: Again, if a person were to say that the art of making the warp and the woof was the art of weaving, he would say what was paradoxical and false.
STRANGER: If someone were to say that the skill of making the warp and the woof is the same as the skill of weaving, that would be a contradictory and incorrect statement.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Shall we say that the whole art of the fuller or of the mender has nothing to do with the care and treatment of clothes, or are we to regard all these as arts of weaving?
STRANGER: Should we say that the entire skill of the fuller or the mender has nothing to do with taking care of and repairing clothes, or should we consider all of these as forms of weaving?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: And yet surely all these arts will maintain that they are concerned with the treatment and production of clothes; they will dispute the exclusive prerogative of weaving, and though assigning a larger sphere to that, will still reserve a considerable field for themselves.
STRANGER: Yet, all these crafts will insist that they're focused on making and handling clothing; they'll argue against the sole right of weaving, and while they might give that a bigger role, they'll still keep a significant area for themselves.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Besides these, there are the arts which make tools and instruments of weaving, and which will claim at least to be co-operative causes in every work of the weaver.
STRANGER: In addition to these, there are the skills that create tools and instruments for weaving, which can at least be considered collaborative influences in every weaver's work.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely true.
STRANGER: Well, then, suppose that we define weaving, or rather that part of it which has been selected by us, to be the greatest and noblest of arts which are concerned with woollen garments—shall we be right? Is not the definition, although true, wanting in clearness and completeness; for do not all those other arts require to be first cleared away?
STRANGER: Well, then, let’s say that weaving, or at least the part of it we’re focusing on, is the greatest and noblest art related to woolen garments—would that be accurate? Is this definition, even though it’s true, lacking in clarity and completeness; because don’t all those other arts need to be addressed first?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Correct.
STRANGER: Then the next thing will be to separate them, in order that the argument may proceed in a regular manner?
STRANGER: So the next step will be to separate them, so the discussion can continue in an orderly way?
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Let us consider, in the first place, that there are two kinds of arts entering into everything which we do.
STRANGER: First of all, let's recognize that there are two types of arts involved in everything we do.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are they?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are those?
STRANGER: The one kind is the conditional or co-operative, the other the principal cause.
STRANGER: One type is the conditional or co-operative, and the other is the main cause.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean by that?
STRANGER: The arts which do not manufacture the actual thing, but which furnish the necessary tools for the manufacture, without which the several arts could not fulfil their appointed work, are co-operative; but those which make the things themselves are causal.
STRANGER: The arts that don't create the actual item but provide the essential tools needed for production, without which the various arts could not accomplish their intended tasks, are collaborative; while those that produce the items themselves are causal.
YOUNG SOCRATES: A very reasonable distinction.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's a really sensible distinction.
STRANGER: Thus the arts which make spindles, combs, and other instruments of the production of clothes, may be called co-operative, and those which treat and fabricate the things themselves, causal.
STRANGER: So the crafts that create spindles, combs, and other tools for making clothes can be called cooperative, while those that actually process and produce the items themselves are causal.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: The arts of washing and mending, and the other preparatory arts which belong to the causal class, and form a division of the great art of adornment, may be all comprehended under what we call the fuller's art.
STRANGER: The skills of washing and mending, along with other related tasks that fall under the basic category, and make up a part of the broader art of decoration, can all be summed up under what we refer to as the fuller's craft.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Awesome.
STRANGER: Carding and spinning threads and all the parts of the process which are concerned with the actual manufacture of a woollen garment form a single art, which is one of those universally acknowledged,—the art of working in wool.
STRANGER: Carding and spinning threads and all the steps involved in making a wool garment are considered a single craft, which is widely recognized—the craft of working with wool.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Of working in wool, again, there are two divisions, and both these are parts of two arts at once.
STRANGER: When it comes to working with wool, there are two main categories, and both of these are aspects of two different arts simultaneously.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How is that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How's that?
STRANGER: Carding and one half of the use of the comb, and the other processes of wool-working which separate the composite, may be classed together as belonging both to the art of wool-working, and also to one of the two great arts which are of universal application—the art of composition and the art of division.
STRANGER: Carding and one and a half uses of the comb, along with the other processes of wool-working that separate the components, can be grouped together as part of both the craft of wool-working and one of the two major arts that apply universally—the art of composition and the art of division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
STRANGER: To the latter belong carding and the other processes of which I was just now speaking; the art of discernment or division in wool and yarn, which is effected in one manner with the comb and in another with the hands, is variously described under all the names which I just now mentioned.
STRANGER: Those processes include carding and others I just mentioned; the skill of sorting or separating wool and yarn is done in one way with a comb and in another way by hand, and it's referred to by all the names I just mentioned.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Again, let us take some process of wool-working which is also a portion of the art of composition, and, dismissing the elements of division which we found there, make two halves, one on the principle of composition, and the other on the principle of division.
STRANGER: Once more, let’s consider a process of wool-working, which is also part of the art of composition. If we set aside the elements of division that we identified earlier, we can create two halves: one based on the principle of composition and the other based on the principle of division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let that be done.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let's go for it.
STRANGER: And once more, Socrates, we must divide the part which belongs at once both to wool-working and composition, if we are ever to discover satisfactorily the aforesaid art of weaving.
STRANGER: And once again, Socrates, we need to separate the aspect that relates to both wool-working and composition if we are ever going to fully understand the art of weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We must.
We have to.
STRANGER: Yes, certainly, and let us call one part of the art the art of twisting threads, the other the art of combining them.
STRANGER: Yes, definitely, and let’s refer to one aspect of the art as the art of twisting threads, and the other as the art of combining them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Do I understand you, in speaking of twisting, to be referring to manufacture of the warp?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Are you saying that by "twisting," you're talking about the creation of the warp?
STRANGER: Yes, and of the woof too; how, if not by twisting, is the woof made?
STRANGER: Yes, and of the weft too; how, if not by twisting, is the weft made?
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is no other way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There’s no other option.
STRANGER: Then suppose that you define the warp and the woof, for I think that the definition will be of use to you.
STRANGER: Then let’s say you define the warp and the woof, because I think that definition will be helpful to you.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How shall I define them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How should I define them?
STRANGER: As thus: A piece of carded wool which is drawn out lengthwise and breadthwise is said to be pulled out.
STRANGER: So, a piece of carded wool that is pulled out both lengthwise and widthwise is said to be stretched out.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yep.
STRANGER: And the wool thus prepared, when twisted by the spindle, and made into a firm thread, is called the warp, and the art which regulates these operations the art of spinning the warp.
STRANGER: The wool that’s been prepared, twisted by the spindle, and made into a strong thread is called the warp, and the skill that manages these processes is known as the art of spinning the warp.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: And the threads which are more loosely spun, having a softness proportioned to the intertexture of the warp and to the degree of force used in dressing the cloth,—the threads which are thus spun are called the woof, and the art which is set over them may be called the art of spinning the woof.
STRANGER: The threads that are spun more loosely, with a softness that matches the weave of the warp and the amount of force used in finishing the cloth—these threads are called the woof, and the skill applied to them can be referred to as the art of spinning the woof.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And, now, there can be no mistake about the nature of the part of weaving which we have undertaken to define. For when that part of the art of composition which is employed in the working of wool forms a web by the regular intertexture of warp and woof, the entire woven substance is called by us a woollen garment, and the art which presides over this is the art of weaving.
STRANGER: So now there's no doubt about what we mean by the part of weaving we're discussing. When the aspect of composition that deals with wool creates a fabric through the consistent interweaving of the warp and weft, we call the whole piece a woolen garment, and the skill behind this is known as weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's very true.
STRANGER: But why did we not say at once that weaving is the art of entwining warp and woof, instead of making a long and useless circuit?
STRANGER: But why didn’t we just say right away that weaving is the art of interlacing the warp and weft, instead of going around in circles?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I thought, Stranger, that there was nothing useless in what was said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I thought, stranger, that nothing that was said was pointless.
STRANGER: Very likely, but you may not always think so, my sweet friend; and in case any feeling of dissatisfaction should hereafter arise in your mind, as it very well may, let me lay down a principle which will apply to arguments in general.
STRANGER: Probably, but you might not always agree, my dear friend; and if you ever feel dissatisfied later on, which is quite possible, let me share a principle that will apply to arguments in general.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Proceed.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Go ahead.
STRANGER: Let us begin by considering the whole nature of excess and defect, and then we shall have a rational ground on which we may praise or blame too much length or too much shortness in discussions of this kind.
STRANGER: Let’s start by looking at the entire concept of excess and deficiency, and then we’ll have a logical basis to either praise or criticize discussions that are too long or too short.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let us do so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let’s go for it.
STRANGER: The points on which I think that we ought to dwell are the following:—
STRANGER: The things I believe we should focus on are the following:—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Huh?
STRANGER: Length and shortness, excess and defect; with all of these the art of measurement is conversant.
STRANGER: Length and shortness, excess and deficiency; the art of measurement deals with all of these.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And the art of measurement has to be divided into two parts, with a view to our present purpose.
STRANGER: The art of measurement needs to be divided into two parts for our current discussion.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Where would you make the division?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Where would you draw the line?
STRANGER: As thus: I would make two parts, one having regard to the relativity of greatness and smallness to each other; and there is another, without which the existence of production would be impossible.
STRANGER: Like this: I would divide it into two parts, one considering how greatness and smallness relate to each other; and the other part, without which production wouldn't be possible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: Do you not think that it is only natural for the greater to be called greater with reference to the less alone, and the less less with reference to the greater alone?
STRANGER: Don’t you think it’s only natural for something greater to be called greater in comparison to something lesser, and for something lesser to be called lesser in comparison to something greater?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: Well, but is there not also something exceeding and exceeded by the principle of the mean, both in speech and action, and is not this a reality, and the chief mark of difference between good and bad men?
STRANGER: Well, isn't there also something that goes beyond and falls short of the principle of moderation, both in what we say and what we do? And isn't this a real thing, the main distinction between good and bad people?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Plainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
STRANGER: Then we must suppose that the great and small exist and are discerned in both these ways, and not, as we were saying before, only relatively to one another, but there must also be another comparison of them with the mean or ideal standard; would you like to hear the reason why?
STRANGER: So, we have to assume that the great and small exist and can be recognized in both ways. It's not just about how they relate to each other, but there must also be a comparison of them to a mean or ideal standard. Do you want to know why?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: If we assume the greater to exist only in relation to the less, there will never be any comparison of either with the mean.
STRANGER: If we think that the greater only exists in comparison to the lesser, there will never be a way to compare either of them with the average.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And would not this doctrine be the ruin of all the arts and their creations; would not the art of the Statesman and the aforesaid art of weaving disappear? For all these arts are on the watch against excess and defect, not as unrealities, but as real evils, which occasion a difficulty in action; and the excellence or beauty of every work of art is due to this observance of measure.
STRANGER: Wouldn't this belief destroy all the arts and their creations? Wouldn't the skills of politicians and weavers vanish? All these arts strive to avoid extremes, not as abstract concepts, but as genuine problems that create challenges in action; the excellence or beauty of every artwork comes from maintaining this balance.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: But if the science of the Statesman disappears, the search for the royal science will be impossible.
STRANGER: But if the knowledge of the Statesman disappears, the quest for the royal knowledge will be impossible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's very true.
STRANGER: Well, then, as in the case of the Sophist we extorted the inference that not-being had an existence, because here was the point at which the argument eluded our grasp, so in this we must endeavour to show that the greater and less are not only to be measured with one another, but also have to do with the production of the mean; for if this is not admitted, neither a statesman nor any other man of action can be an undisputed master of his science.
STRANGER: Well, just like we concluded with the Sophist that non-being had some form of existence because that’s where the argument slipped away from us, we need to show that the greater and lesser aren’t just measured against each other, but also relate to the creation of the mean. If we don’t accept this, then neither a statesman nor anyone else who takes action can truly be considered a master of their craft.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, we must certainly do again what we did then.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, we definitely need to do what we did back then.
STRANGER: But this, Socrates, is a greater work than the other, of which we only too well remember the length. I think, however, that we may fairly assume something of this sort—
STRANGER: But this, Socrates, is a bigger task than the other, which we remember all too well for how long it was. I think we can reasonably assume something like this—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Huh?
STRANGER: That we shall some day require this notion of a mean with a view to the demonstration of absolute truth; meanwhile, the argument that the very existence of the arts must be held to depend on the possibility of measuring more or less, not only with one another, but also with a view to the attainment of the mean, seems to afford a grand support and satisfactory proof of the doctrine which we are maintaining; for if there are arts, there is a standard of measure, and if there is a standard of measure, there are arts; but if either is wanting, there is neither.
STRANGER: One day, we will need this idea of a mean to prove absolute truth. For now, though, the argument that the existence of the arts relies on our ability to measure things in relation to one another and to find a mean supports and proves the point we’re making. If the arts exist, that means there’s a standard of measurement; if there’s a standard of measurement, then the arts exist. But if either one is missing, then neither exists.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True; and what is the next step?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right; what's the next step?
STRANGER: The next step clearly is to divide the art of measurement into two parts, as we have said already, and to place in the one part all the arts which measure number, length, depth, breadth, swiftness with their opposites; and to have another part in which they are measured with the mean, and the fit, and the opportune, and the due, and with all those words, in short, which denote a mean or standard removed from the extremes.
STRANGER: The next step is obviously to split the art of measurement into two parts, as we've already mentioned. In one part, we'll include all the arts that measure number, length, depth, width, speed, along with their opposites. In the other part, we'll measure using concepts like the average, the appropriate, the timely, and the required, along with all the terms that indicate a mean or standard that’s away from the extremes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Here are two vast divisions, embracing two very different spheres.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Here are two large divisions, covering two very different areas.
STRANGER: There are many accomplished men, Socrates, who say, believing themselves to speak wisely, that the art of measurement is universal, and has to do with all things. And this means what we are now saying; for all things which come within the province of art do certainly in some sense partake of measure. But these persons, because they are not accustomed to distinguish classes according to real forms, jumble together two widely different things, relation to one another, and to a standard, under the idea that they are the same, and also fall into the converse error of dividing other things not according to their real parts. Whereas the right way is, if a man has first seen the unity of things, to go on with the enquiry and not desist until he has found all the differences contained in it which form distinct classes; nor again should he be able to rest contented with the manifold diversities which are seen in a multitude of things until he has comprehended all of them that have any affinity within the bounds of one similarity and embraced them within the reality of a single kind. But we have said enough on this head, and also of excess and defect; we have only to bear in mind that two divisions of the art of measurement have been discovered which are concerned with them, and not forget what they are.
STRANGER: There are many skilled people, Socrates, who confidently claim to speak wisely, saying that the art of measurement is universal and applies to everything. This aligns with what we're discussing now; because everything that falls under the category of art does have some aspect of measurement. However, these individuals, lacking the ability to differentiate categories based on actual forms, mix up two very different concepts: the relationship between things and their relation to a standard, mistakenly thinking they are the same. They also make the opposite mistake of splitting things without considering their true components. The right approach is for someone to first recognize the unity of things and then continue exploring until they identify all the differences that create distinct categories. They shouldn't be satisfied with just the various differences seen in many things until they've understood all that relate under a single similarity and encompassed them within a unified reality. But we have talked enough about this topic, as well as excess and deficiency; we just need to remember that we've identified two areas of measurement that relate to them and not forget what those are.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We will not forget.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We won't forget.
STRANGER: And now that this discussion is completed, let us go on to consider another question, which concerns not this argument only but the conduct of such arguments in general.
STRANGER: Now that we’ve finished this discussion, let’s move on to another question, which relates not just to this argument but to how we handle such arguments in general.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is this new question?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's this new question?
STRANGER: Take the case of a child who is engaged in learning his letters: when he is asked what letters make up a word, should we say that the question is intended to improve his grammatical knowledge of that particular word, or of all words?
STRANGER: Consider a child who is learning his letters: when asked what letters form a word, should we say that the question aims to enhance his understanding of the grammar of that specific word, or of all words?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, in order that he may have a better knowledge of all words.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, so he can have a better understanding of all words.
STRANGER: And is our enquiry about the Statesman intended only to improve our knowledge of politics, or our power of reasoning generally?
STRANGER: Is our inquiry about the Statesman meant only to enhance our understanding of politics, or to strengthen our reasoning skills overall?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, as in the former example, the purpose is general.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, as in the previous example, the purpose is general.
STRANGER: Still less would any rational man seek to analyse the notion of weaving for its own sake. But people seem to forget that some things have sensible images, which are readily known, and can be easily pointed out when any one desires to answer an enquirer without any trouble or argument; whereas the greatest and highest truths have no outward image of themselves visible to man, which he who wishes to satisfy the soul of the enquirer can adapt to the eye of sense (compare Phaedr.), and therefore we ought to train ourselves to give and accept a rational account of them; for immaterial things, which are the noblest and greatest, are shown only in thought and idea, and in no other way, and all that we are now saying is said for the sake of them. Moreover, there is always less difficulty in fixing the mind on small matters than on great.
STRANGER: A sensible person wouldn't bother trying to analyze the idea of weaving just for its own sake. However, people often forget that some concepts have clear images that are easily recognized and can be effortlessly pointed out when someone wants to answer a question without causing any hassle or debate. In contrast, the most profound and significant truths don’t have a visible representation that we can show to someone seeking satisfaction for their curiosity. This is why we need to train ourselves to provide and accept logical explanations for these truths; the most valuable and important things can only be expressed through thought and ideas, not in any other way. Everything we’re discussing now is aimed at those ideas. Furthermore, it’s generally easier to focus on minor issues than on major ones.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: Let us call to mind the bearing of all this.
STRANGER: Let's think about what all this means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s that?
STRANGER: I wanted to get rid of any impression of tediousness which we may have experienced in the discussion about weaving, and the reversal of the universe, and in the discussion concerning the Sophist and the being of not-being. I know that they were felt to be too long, and I reproached myself with this, fearing that they might be not only tedious but irrelevant; and all that I have now said is only designed to prevent the recurrence of any such disagreeables for the future.
STRANGER: I wanted to eliminate any sense of boredom we may have felt during our talks about weaving, the reversal of the universe, and the discussions about the Sophist and the nature of existence and non-existence. I know they seemed drawn out, and I've been hard on myself for that, worried they might not just be boring but also irrelevant; everything I just said is meant to avoid any similar unpleasantness in the future.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good. Will you proceed?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds good. Are you ready to continue?
STRANGER: Then I would like to observe that you and I, remembering what has been said, should praise or blame the length or shortness of discussions, not by comparing them with one another, but with what is fitting, having regard to the part of measurement, which, as we said, was to be borne in mind.
STRANGER: So, I’d like to point out that you and I, keeping in mind what’s been said, should judge the length of our discussions—not by comparing them to each other, but by what’s appropriate, considering the aspect of measurement that we discussed earlier.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And yet, not everything is to be judged even with a view to what is fitting; for we should only want such a length as is suited to give pleasure, if at all, as a secondary matter; and reason tells us, that we should be contented to make the ease or rapidity of an enquiry, not our first, but our second object; the first and highest of all being to assert the great method of division according to species—whether the discourse be shorter or longer is not to the point. No offence should be taken at length, but the longer and shorter are to be employed indifferently, according as either of them is better calculated to sharpen the wits of the auditors. Reason would also say to him who censures the length of discourses on such occasions and cannot away with their circumlocution, that he should not be in such a hurry to have done with them, when he can only complain that they are tedious, but he should prove that if they had been shorter they would have made those who took part in them better dialecticians, and more capable of expressing the truth of things; about any other praise and blame, he need not trouble himself—he should pretend not to hear them. But we have had enough of this, as you will probably agree with me in thinking. Let us return to our Statesman, and apply to his case the aforesaid example of weaving.
STRANGER: Still, not everything should be judged solely by what seems appropriate; we should only seek a length that can bring pleasure, if at all, as a secondary concern. Reason tells us that we should prioritize the ease or speed of an inquiry as our second objective, while our primary focus should be on applying the main method of categorization by type—whether the discussion is shorter or longer doesn’t matter. Length shouldn’t cause offense; both shorter and longer formats should be used interchangeably, based on which one helps sharpen the minds of the listeners better. Reason would also advise those who criticize the length of discussions, who find them overly wordy, to not rush through them just because they seem tedious. Instead, they should demonstrate that if the discussions were shorter, they would actually help participants develop into better dialecticians and be more capable of expressing truths. As for any other critiques, there’s no need to pay them any mind—just pretend you don't hear them. But we’ve covered enough of this, as you probably agree. Let’s return to our Statesman and apply the earlier example of weaving to his situation.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good;—let us do as you say.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great; let’s go with your suggestion.
STRANGER: The art of the king has been separated from the similar arts of shepherds, and, indeed, from all those which have to do with herds at all. There still remain, however, of the causal and co-operative arts those which are immediately concerned with States, and which must first be distinguished from one another.
STRANGER: The king's art has been set apart from the similar skills of shepherds and, really, from all those related to herding. However, there are still some of the causal and collaborative arts that are directly related to States, and we need to first distinguish them from one another.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: You know that these arts cannot easily be divided into two halves; the reason will be very evident as we proceed.
STRANGER: You know that these arts can't be easily split into two halves; the reason will become clear as we go on.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then we had better do so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Then we should go ahead and do that.
STRANGER: We must carve them like a victim into members or limbs, since we cannot bisect them. (Compare Phaedr.) For we certainly should divide everything into as few parts as possible.
STRANGER: We have to split them like a sacrifice into pieces or limbs, since we can't cut them in half. (See Phaedr.) We should definitely break everything down into as few parts as we can.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is to be done in this case?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What should we do about this?
STRANGER: What we did in the example of weaving—all those arts which furnish the tools were regarded by us as co-operative.
STRANGER: What we did in the weaving example—all those skills that provide the tools were seen by us as collaborative.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yup.
STRANGER: So now, and with still more reason, all arts which make any implement in a State, whether great or small, may be regarded by us as co-operative, for without them neither State nor Statesmanship would be possible; and yet we are not inclined to say that any of them is a product of the kingly art.
STRANGER: So now, and even more so, all the skills that create any tools in a society, whether big or small, can be seen as collective efforts because without them, neither the society nor good governance would be possible; yet we don't feel inclined to say that any of them comes from the royal art.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No, indeed.
No way.
STRANGER: The task of separating this class from others is not an easy one; for there is plausibility in saying that anything in the world is the instrument of doing something. But there is another class of possessions in a city, of which I have a word to say.
STRANGER: Distinguishing this class from others isn't straightforward; it's reasonable to argue that anything in the world can be used as a tool for achieving something. However, there's another category of belongings in a city that I want to talk about.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What class do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which class are you talking about?
STRANGER: A class which may be described as not having this power; that is to say, not like an instrument, framed for production, but designed for the preservation of that which is produced.
STRANGER: A category that can be described as lacking this ability; that is to say, it's not like a tool created for production but is intended for preserving what has been produced.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: To the class of vessels, as they are comprehensively termed, which are constructed for the preservation of things moist and dry, of things prepared in the fire or out of the fire; this is a very large class, and has, if I am not mistaken, literally nothing to do with the royal art of which we are in search.
STRANGER: To the group of containers, commonly referred to, that are designed to keep items dry or wet, whether they’ve been made over a fire or not; this is a pretty extensive category, and it has, if I’m not mistaken, absolutely nothing to do with the royal art we’re looking for.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: There is also a third class of possessions to be noted, different from these and very extensive, moving or resting on land or water, honourable and also dishonourable. The whole of this class has one name, because it is intended to be sat upon, being always a seat for something.
STRANGER: There's also a third category of possessions to mention, distinct from the others and quite broad, whether they're on land or water, and they can be either respectable or disgraceful. This entire category has one name, as it's meant to be sat on, always serving as a seat for something.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's that?
STRANGER: A vehicle, which is certainly not the work of the Statesman, but of the carpenter, potter, and coppersmith.
STRANGER: A vehicle that definitely isn’t made by the Statesman, but by the carpenter, potter, and coppersmith.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I understand.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Got it.
STRANGER: And is there not a fourth class which is again different, and in which most of the things formerly mentioned are contained,—every kind of dress, most sorts of arms, walls and enclosures, whether of earth or stone, and ten thousand other things? all of which being made for the sake of defence, may be truly called defences, and are for the most part to be regarded as the work of the builder or of the weaver, rather than of the Statesman.
STRANGER: Isn't there a fourth category that is distinct and includes most of the items previously mentioned—every type of clothing, various kinds of weapons, walls and fences, whether made of earth or stone, and countless other things? All of these, created for protection, can rightfully be called defenses and are primarily viewed as the products of builders or weavers, rather than of politicians.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: Shall we add a fifth class, of ornamentation and drawing, and of the imitations produced by drawing and music, which are designed for amusement only, and may be fairly comprehended under one name?
STRANGER: Should we introduce a fifth category for decoration and drawing, along with the imitations created by drawing and music, which are meant for entertainment only, and can all be grouped under one term?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s that?
STRANGER: Plaything is the name.
STRANGER: The name is Plaything.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: That one name may be fitly predicated of all of them, for none of these things have a serious purpose—amusement is their sole aim.
STRANGER: That one name can accurately describe all of them, because none of these things have a serious intention—entertainment is their only goal.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That again I understand.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I get that too.
STRANGER: Then there is a class which provides materials for all these, out of which and in which the arts already mentioned fabricate their works;—this manifold class, I say, which is the creation and offspring of many other arts, may I not rank sixth?
STRANGER: Then there's a category that supplies the materials for all these, from which and in which the previously mentioned arts create their works;—this diverse category, I say, which is the result and product of many other arts, can I not place it as sixth?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: I am referring to gold, silver, and other metals, and all that wood-cutting and shearing of every sort provides for the art of carpentry and plaiting; and there is the process of barking and stripping the cuticle of plants, and the currier's art, which strips off the skins of animals, and other similar arts which manufacture corks and papyri and cords, and provide for the manufacture of composite species out of simple kinds—the whole class may be termed the primitive and simple possession of man, and with this the kingly science has no concern at all.
STRANGER: I'm talking about gold, silver, and other metals, along with everything that involves cutting wood and shearing in carpentry and weaving. There's also the process of stripping bark from plants, plus the work of the currier, who removes animal skins, and other related crafts that make corks, paper, and ropes. These all contribute to creating complex items from basic materials—this whole category represents the fundamental and basic resources of humanity, and the royal science has nothing to do with it at all.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: The provision of food and of all other things which mingle their particles with the particles of the human body, and minister to the body, will form a seventh class, which may be called by the general term of nourishment, unless you have any better name to offer. This, however, appertains rather to the husbandman, huntsman, trainer, doctor, cook, and is not to be assigned to the Statesman's art.
STRANGER: The supply of food and all other things that mix with the particles of the human body and support it will make up a seventh category, which we could call nourishment, unless you have a better name. However, this relates more to the farmer, hunter, trainer, doctor, and cook, and shouldn't be considered part of the Statesman's role.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely not.
STRANGER: These seven classes include nearly every description of property, with the exception of tame animals. Consider;—there was the original material, which ought to have been placed first; next come instruments, vessels, vehicles, defences, playthings, nourishment; small things, which may be included under one of these—as for example, coins, seals and stamps, are omitted, for they have not in them the character of any larger kind which includes them; but some of them may, with a little forcing, be placed among ornaments, and others may be made to harmonize with the class of implements. The art of herding, which has been already divided into parts, will include all property in tame animals, except slaves.
STRANGER: These seven categories cover almost every type of property, except for domesticated animals. Think about it—first, there’s the original material, which should come first; then we have tools, containers, vehicles, defenses, toys, and food. Small items that could fall under one of these—like coins, seals, and stamps—are left out since they don’t have the characteristics of a larger category that includes them; however, some might, with a bit of stretching, fit under decorations, and others could be aligned with the tools category. The art of herding, which has already been broken down into sections, will encompass all property related to domesticated animals, except for slaves.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: The class of slaves and ministers only remains, and I suspect that in this the real aspirants for the throne, who are the rivals of the king in the formation of the political web, will be discovered; just as spinners, carders, and the rest of them, were the rivals of the weaver. All the others, who were termed co-operators, have been got rid of among the occupations already mentioned, and separated from the royal and political science.
STRANGER: Only the group of slaves and ministers is left, and I think that in this we’ll find the real contenders for the throne, who are the king's rivals in shaping the political landscape, just like spinners, carders, and the others were rivals to the weaver. Everyone else, who were called co-operators, has been eliminated from the previously mentioned occupations and removed from royal and political matters.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I’m in agreement.
STRANGER: Let us go a little nearer, in order that we may be more certain of the complexion of this remaining class.
STRANGER: Let’s get a bit closer so we can better understand the nature of this remaining group.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let us do so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let's go for it.
STRANGER: We shall find from our present point of view that the greatest servants are in a case and condition which is the reverse of what we anticipated.
STRANGER: From where we stand right now, we'll see that the best servants are actually in a situation that's the complete opposite of what we expected.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they?
STRANGER: Those who have been purchased, and have so become possessions; these are unmistakably slaves, and certainly do not claim royal science.
STRANGER: Those who have been bought and thus become possessions; these are clearly slaves and definitely do not possess royal knowledge.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: Again, freemen who of their own accord become the servants of the other classes in a State, and who exchange and equalise the products of husbandry and the other arts, some sitting in the market-place, others going from city to city by land or sea, and giving money in exchange for money or for other productions—the money-changer, the merchant, the ship-owner, the retailer, will not put in any claim to statecraft or politics?
STRANGER: Once more, free people who choose to serve other classes in a society and who trade and balance the goods from farming and other trades—some sitting in the marketplace, others traveling between cities by land or sea, exchanging money for money or for other goods—the money-changer, the merchant, the ship owner, and the retailer, won't they claim any role in government or politics?
YOUNG SOCRATES: No; unless, indeed, to the politics of commerce.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No; unless, of course, when it comes to the politics of business.
STRANGER: But surely men whom we see acting as hirelings and serfs, and too happy to turn their hand to anything, will not profess to share in royal science?
STRANGER: But surely, the men we see working as laborers and servants, and who are all too eager to do any job, won't claim to be part of royal knowledge?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: But what would you say of some other serviceable officials?
STRANGER: But what would you say about some other helpful officials?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they, and what services do they perform?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they, and what do they do?
STRANGER: There are heralds, and scribes perfected by practice, and divers others who have great skill in various sorts of business connected with the government of states—what shall we call them?
STRANGER: There are announcers, and writers who have honed their craft through experience, and many others who are highly skilled in different areas related to the management of governments—what should we call them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: They are the officials, and servants of the rulers, as you just now called them, but not themselves rulers.
YOUNG SOCRATES: They are the officials and servants of the rulers, as you just called them, but they are not the rulers themselves.
STRANGER: There may be something strange in any servant pretending to be a ruler, and yet I do not think that I could have been dreaming when I imagined that the principal claimants to political science would be found somewhere in this neighbourhood.
STRANGER: It might be odd for a servant to act like a ruler, but I don't think I was dreaming when I thought that the main contenders for political knowledge would be here in this area.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Well, let us draw nearer, and try the claims of some who have not yet been tested: in the first place, there are diviners, who have a portion of servile or ministerial science, and are thought to be the interpreters of the gods to men.
STRANGER: Well, let's come closer and examine the claims of some who haven't been proven yet: first, there are diviners, who possess a kind of servile or ministerial knowledge, and are believed to be the messengers of the gods to people.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Seriously.
STRANGER: There is also the priestly class, who, as the law declares, know how to give the gods gifts from men in the form of sacrifices which are acceptable to them, and to ask on our behalf blessings in return from them. Now both these are branches of the servile or ministerial art.
STRANGER: There’s also the priestly class, who, as the law states, know how to offer the gods gifts from people in the form of sacrifices that are pleasing to them, and to request blessings from them on our behalf. Both of these roles are part of the servile or ministerial arts.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, obviously.
STRANGER: And here I think that we seem to be getting on the right track; for the priest and the diviner are swollen with pride and prerogative, and they create an awful impression of themselves by the magnitude of their enterprises; in Egypt, the king himself is not allowed to reign, unless he have priestly powers, and if he should be of another class and has thrust himself in, he must get enrolled in the priesthood. In many parts of Hellas, the duty of offering the most solemn propitiatory sacrifices is assigned to the highest magistracies, and here, at Athens, the most solemn and national of the ancient sacrifices are supposed to be celebrated by him who has been chosen by lot to be the King Archon.
STRANGER: I think we're actually on the right track here; the priest and the diviner are filled with pride and entitlement, and they create a terrible image of themselves with the scale of their actions. In Egypt, the king can’t rule unless he has priestly authority, and if someone from a different background tries to take the throne, they have to join the priesthood. In many parts of Greece, the responsibility for making the most important sacrificial offerings falls to the highest officials, and here in Athens, the most significant national sacrifices are performed by the person chosen by lot to be the King Archon.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Precisely.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: But who are these other kings and priests elected by lot who now come into view followed by their retainers and a vast throng, as the former class disappears and the scene changes?
STRANGER: But who are these other kings and priests chosen by chance who are now coming into view with their attendants and a huge crowd, as the previous group fades away and the scene shifts?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Whom can you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are you talking about?
STRANGER: They are a strange crew.
STRANGER: They're a strange group.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why strange?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why is it strange?
STRANGER: A minute ago I thought that they were animals of every tribe; for many of them are like lions and centaurs, and many more like satyrs and such weak and shifty creatures;—Protean shapes quickly changing into one another's forms and natures; and now, Socrates, I begin to see who they are.
STRANGER: A minute ago, I thought they were animals from every tribe; many of them look like lions and centaurs, and even more resemble satyrs and other weak, deceitful beings—shapeshifters quickly switching into each other's forms and natures; and now, Socrates, I'm starting to understand who they really are.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they? You seem to be gazing on some strange vision.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who are they? You look like you're staring at something unusual.
STRANGER: Yes; every one looks strange when you do not know him; and just now I myself fell into this mistake—at first sight, coming suddenly upon him, I did not recognize the politician and his troop.
STRANGER: Yeah; everyone seems weird when you don’t know them; and just now I made that mistake myself—when I first saw him out of nowhere, I didn’t recognize the politician and his crew.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who is he?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Who’s he?
STRANGER: The chief of Sophists and most accomplished of wizards, who must at any cost be separated from the true king or Statesman, if we are ever to see daylight in the present enquiry.
STRANGER: The leader of Sophists and the most skilled of wizards, who must be kept apart from the true king or Statesman at all costs if we are ever to make progress in the current discussion.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is a hope not lightly to be renounced.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's a hope we shouldn't give up easily.
STRANGER: Never, if I can help it; and, first, let me ask you a question.
STRANGER: Never, if I can avoid it; and first, let me ask you a question.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s up?
STRANGER: Is not monarchy a recognized form of government?
STRANGER: Isn't monarchy a recognized form of government?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And, after monarchy, next in order comes the government of the few?
STRANGER: So, after monarchy, is the government of the few next in line?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Is not the third form of government the rule of the multitude, which is called by the name of democracy?
STRANGER: Isn't the third type of government the rule of the many, which we call democracy?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: And do not these three expand in a manner into five, producing out of themselves two other names?
STRANGER: Don’t these three also expand into five, creating two additional names from themselves?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are they?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are these?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are they?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are those?
STRANGER: There is a criterion of voluntary and involuntary, poverty and riches, law and the absence of law, which men now-a-days apply to them; the two first they subdivide accordingly, and ascribe to monarchy two forms and two corresponding names, royalty and tyranny.
STRANGER: People these days use a standard of voluntary and involuntary, poverty and wealth, law and lawlessness; they break down the first two and assign monarchy two types and two matching names: royalty and tyranny.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Totally true.
STRANGER: And the government of the few they distinguish by the names of aristocracy and oligarchy.
STRANGER: And the government of a small group is referred to as aristocracy and oligarchy.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Democracy alone, whether rigidly observing the laws or not, and whether the multitude rule over the men of property with their consent or against their consent, always in ordinary language has the same name.
STRANGER: Democracy, whether it strictly follows the laws or not, and whether the majority governs the property owners with their approval or against their will, has always been called the same thing in plain terms.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: But do you suppose that any form of government which is defined by these characteristics of the one, the few, or the many, of poverty or wealth, of voluntary or compulsory submission, of written law or the absence of law, can be a right one?
STRANGER: But do you think any type of government defined by these traits of one, few, or many, of poverty or wealth, of voluntary or forced submission, of written laws or no laws, can be a legitimate one?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?
STRANGER: Reflect; and follow me.
STRANGER: Think about it; and follow me.
YOUNG SOCRATES: In what direction?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which way?
STRANGER: Shall we abide by what we said at first, or shall we retract our words?
STRANGER: Should we stick to what we said in the beginning, or should we take back our words?
YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: If I am not mistaken, we said that royal power was a science?
STRANGER: If I’m not wrong, we said that royal power is a science?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And a science of a peculiar kind, which was selected out of the rest as having a character which is at once judicial and authoritative?
STRANGER: And a kind of science that was picked out from the others for being both judicial and authoritative?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: And there was one kind of authority over lifeless things and another other living animals; and so we proceeded in the division step by step up to this point, not losing the idea of science, but unable as yet to determine the nature of the particular science?
STRANGER: There was one type of authority over inanimate objects and another over living animals; and we continued to divide things step by step up to this point, keeping the concept of science in mind, but still unable to figure out the specific nature of that science.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: Hence we are led to observe that the distinguishing principle of the State cannot be the few or many, the voluntary or involuntary, poverty or riches; but some notion of science must enter into it, if we are to be consistent with what has preceded.
STRANGER: So, we can see that the defining principle of the State can't just be about whether there are few or many people, whether things are done voluntarily or involuntarily, or whether there's poverty or wealth; it has to involve some idea of science if we're going to stay true to what we've discussed before.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And we must be consistent.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And we have to be consistent.
STRANGER: Well, then, in which of these various forms of States may the science of government, which is among the greatest of all sciences and most difficult to acquire, be supposed to reside? That we must discover, and then we shall see who are the false politicians who pretend to be politicians but are not, although they persuade many, and shall separate them from the wise king.
STRANGER: Well, then, in which of these different types of States might the science of government, one of the greatest and most challenging sciences to master, be found? We need to figure that out, and then we'll identify the fake politicians who claim to be politicians but aren’t, even though they fool many, and distinguish them from the wise king.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That, as the argument has already intimated, will be our duty.
YOUNG SOCRATES: As the argument has already suggested, that's what we'll need to do.
STRANGER: Do you think that the multitude in a State can attain political science?
STRANGER: Do you think that people in a society can understand political science?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No way.
STRANGER: But, perhaps, in a city of a thousand men, there would be a hundred, or say fifty, who could?
STRANGER: But maybe in a city with a thousand people, there would be a hundred, or let's say fifty, who could?
YOUNG SOCRATES: In that case political science would certainly be the easiest of all sciences; there could not be found in a city of that number as many really first-rate draught-players, if judged by the standard of the rest of Hellas, and there would certainly not be as many kings. For kings we may truly call those who possess royal science, whether they rule or not, as was shown in the previous argument.
YOUNG SOCRATES: In that case, political science would definitely be the easiest of all sciences; you wouldn’t find as many truly exceptional chess players in a city of that size, compared to the rest of Greece, and there certainly wouldn't be as many kings. We can genuinely call those who have royal knowledge kings, whether they rule or not, as was demonstrated in the previous argument.
STRANGER: Thank you for reminding me; and the consequence is that any true form of government can only be supposed to be the government of one, two, or, at any rate, of a few.
STRANGER: Thanks for the reminder; and the result is that any real form of government can only be thought of as being led by one person, two people, or, at the very least, a small group.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And these, whether they rule with the will, or against the will, of their subjects, with written laws or without written laws, and whether they are poor or rich, and whatever be the nature of their rule, must be supposed, according to our present view, to rule on some scientific principle; just as the physician, whether he cures us against our will or with our will, and whatever be his mode of treatment,—incision, burning, or the infliction of some other pain,—whether he practises out of a book or not out of a book, and whether he be rich or poor, whether he purges or reduces in some other way, or even fattens his patients, is a physician all the same, so long as he exercises authority over them according to rules of art, if he only does them good and heals and saves them. And this we lay down to be the only proper test of the art of medicine, or of any other art of command.
STRANGER: And these rulers, whether they have the consent of their subjects or not, whether they govern with written laws or without them, whether they are wealthy or struggling, and regardless of the nature of their rule, should be seen, based on our current understanding, as ruling according to some scientific principle. Just like a doctor, whether they treat us against our wishes or with our consent, and regardless of their methods—surgery, cauterization, or causing some other discomfort—whether they follow a textbook or not, and whether they are affluent or impoverished, whether they cleanse or treat in another way, or even make their patients gain weight, is still a doctor as long as they wield authority over their patients according to established practices, as long as they do good, heal, and save lives. We assert that this is the only valid standard for assessing the practice of medicine or any other commanding skill.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: Then that can be the only true form of government in which the governors are really found to possess science, and are not mere pretenders, whether they rule according to law or without law, over willing or unwilling subjects, and are rich or poor themselves—none of these things can with any propriety be included in the notion of the ruler.
STRANGER: So, the only genuine form of government must be one where the leaders truly have knowledge, rather than just pretending to have it, regardless of whether they govern by law or not, whether their subjects are willing or unwilling, and whether they are wealthy or poor themselves—none of these factors should be included in the idea of what makes someone a ruler.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: And whether with a view to the public good they purge the State by killing some, or exiling some; whether they reduce the size of the body corporate by sending out from the hive swarms of citizens, or, by introducing persons from without, increase it; while they act according to the rules of wisdom and justice, and use their power with a view to the general security and improvement, the city over which they rule, and which has these characteristics, may be described as the only true State. All other governments are not genuine or real; but only imitations of this, and some of them are better and some of them are worse; the better are said to be well governed, but they are mere imitations like the others.
STRANGER: Whether they aim for the public good by executing some or exiling others; whether they shrink the population by sending citizens away or increase it by bringing in people from outside; as long as they act wisely and justly, and use their power for the common security and improvement, the city they govern, with these qualities, can be called the only true State. All other governments aren't genuine or real; they are just copies of this one, and some of them are better while others are worse. The better ones are referred to as well governed, but they're still just imitations like the rest.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree, Stranger, in the greater part of what you say; but as to their ruling without laws—the expression has a harsh sound.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I mostly agree with you, Stranger; however, the idea of them ruling without laws sounds harsh.
STRANGER: You have been too quick for me, Socrates; I was just going to ask you whether you objected to any of my statements. And now I see that we shall have to consider this notion of there being good government without laws.
STRANGER: You’ve been too fast for me, Socrates; I was just about to ask if you disagreed with any of my statements. And now I realize we need to discuss this idea of having good government without laws.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: There can be no doubt that legislation is in a manner the business of a king, and yet the best thing of all is not that the law should rule, but that a man should rule supposing him to have wisdom and royal power. Do you see why this is?
STRANGER: There's no doubt that making laws is, in a way, a king's job, but the best scenario isn’t that the law is supreme, but rather that a wise and powerful man should lead. Do you understand why that is?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why's that?
STRANGER: Because the law does not perfectly comprehend what is noblest and most just for all and therefore cannot enforce what is best. The differences of men and actions, and the endless irregular movements of human things, do not admit of any universal and simple rule. And no art whatsoever can lay down a rule which will last for all time.
STRANGER: Because the law doesn't fully understand what is the noblest and most just for everyone, it can't enforce what's best. The differences between people and their actions, along with the endless unpredictable nature of human affairs, can't be summed up by any universal and simple rule. And no form of art can create a rule that will stand the test of time.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely not.
STRANGER: But the law is always striving to make one;—like an obstinate and ignorant tyrant, who will not allow anything to be done contrary to his appointment, or any question to be asked—not even in sudden changes of circumstances, when something happens to be better than what he commanded for some one.
STRANGER: But the law is always trying to create one;—like a stubborn and ignorant tyrant, who won't allow anything to be done contrary to his orders, or any questions to be asked—not even when circumstances suddenly change, and something turns out to be better than what he commanded for someone.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly; the law treats us all precisely in the manner which you describe.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Definitely; the law treats all of us exactly as you described.
STRANGER: A perfectly simple principle can never be applied to a state of things which is the reverse of simple.
STRANGER: A completely straightforward principle can never be applied to a situation that is the opposite of straightforward.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: Then if the law is not the perfection of right, why are we compelled to make laws at all? The reason of this has next to be investigated.
STRANGER: So if the law isn't the perfect embodiment of what’s right, why do we have to create laws at all? This reason needs to be looked into next.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Let me ask, whether you have not meetings for gymnastic contests in your city, such as there are in other cities, at which men compete in running, wrestling, and the like?
STRANGER: Can I ask if you have athletic competitions in your city like other places do, where men compete in running, wrestling, and similar events?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes; they are very common among us.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, they're really common around here.
STRANGER: And what are the rules which are enforced on their pupils by professional trainers or by others having similar authority? Can you remember?
STRANGER: So, what rules do professional trainers or others with similar authority enforce on their students? Can you remember?
YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: The training-masters do not issue minute rules for individuals, or give every individual what is exactly suited to his constitution; they think that they ought to go more roughly to work, and to prescribe generally the regimen which will benefit the majority.
STRANGER: The training masters don’t provide detailed rules for each person or customize everything to fit their individual needs; they believe it’s better to take a broader approach and recommend a general regimen that will benefit the most people.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And therefore they assign equal amounts of exercise to them all; they send them forth together, and let them rest together from their running, wrestling, or whatever the form of bodily exercise may be.
STRANGER: So they give them all the same amount of exercise; they send them out together and allow them to rest together after their running, wrestling, or whatever type of physical activity it is.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: And now observe that the legislator who has to preside over the herd, and to enforce justice in their dealings with one another, will not be able, in enacting for the general good, to provide exactly what is suitable for each particular case.
STRANGER: And now notice that the person in charge of overseeing the group and ensuring fairness in their interactions won’t be able to create laws for the common good that perfectly fit every single situation.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He cannot be expected to do so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He can’t be expected to do that.
STRANGER: He will lay down laws in a general form for the majority, roughly meeting the cases of individuals; and some of them he will deliver in writing, and others will be unwritten; and these last will be traditional customs of the country.
STRANGER: He will establish rules that apply generally to most people, addressing individual cases to some extent; he will put some of these rules in writing, while others will remain unwritten, relying on the traditional customs of the land.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He will be right.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He's right.
STRANGER: Yes, quite right; for how can he sit at every man's side all through his life, prescribing for him the exact particulars of his duty? Who, Socrates, would be equal to such a task? No one who really had the royal science, if he had been able to do this, would have imposed upon himself the restriction of a written law.
STRANGER: That's true; how can he be at everyone's side throughout his life, telling each person exactly what their responsibilities are? Who, Socrates, could handle such a job? Anyone who truly possessed the royal knowledge would not have limited themselves to a written law if they were capable of doing this.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So I should infer from what has now been said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So I guess that's what I should take from what we've just talked about.
STRANGER: Or rather, my good friend, from what is going to be said.
STRANGER: Or rather, my good friend, from what’s about to be said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And what is that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: And what is that?
STRANGER: Let us put to ourselves the case of a physician, or trainer, who is about to go into a far country, and is expecting to be a long time away from his patients—thinking that his instructions will not be remembered unless they are written down, he will leave notes of them for the use of his pupils or patients.
STRANGER: Let’s consider a doctor or a trainer who is about to travel far away and will be gone for a long time. Believing that his instructions won’t be remembered unless they’re written down, he’ll jot down notes for his students or patients to use.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: But what would you say, if he came back sooner than he had intended, and, owing to an unexpected change of the winds or other celestial influences, something else happened to be better for them,—would he not venture to suggest this new remedy, although not contemplated in his former prescription? Would he persist in observing the original law, neither himself giving any new commandments, nor the patient daring to do otherwise than was prescribed, under the idea that this course only was healthy and medicinal, all others noxious and heterodox? Viewed in the light of science and true art, would not all such enactments be utterly ridiculous?
STRANGER: But what would you think if he came back sooner than he intended, and because of an unexpected change in the winds or other cosmic factors, something else turned out to be better for them—would he not suggest this new solution, even though it wasn't part of his original prescription? Would he stick to the original rules, neither giving new guidelines himself nor allowing the patient to do anything different from what was prescribed, believing that only this approach was healthy and medicinal, and all others harmful and incorrect? In terms of science and true practice, wouldn't all of these rules be completely absurd?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Utterly.
Totally.
STRANGER: And if he who gave laws, written or unwritten, determining what was good or bad, honourable or dishonourable, just or unjust, to the tribes of men who flock together in their several cities, and are governed in accordance with them; if, I say, the wise legislator were suddenly to come again, or another like to him, is he to be prohibited from changing them?—would not this prohibition be in reality quite as ridiculous as the other?
STRANGER: And if the one who created laws, whether written or unwritten, that decide what is good or bad, honorable or dishonorable, just or unjust for the groups of people living in their own cities and following those laws; if, I mean, the wise legislator were to suddenly return, or someone like him, would he be stopped from making changes?—wouldn't that prohibition be just as absurd as the other?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: Do you know a plausible saying of the common people which is in point?
STRANGER: Do you know a saying from everyday people that fits the situation?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not recall what you mean at the moment.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I can't remember what you're talking about right now.
STRANGER: They say that if any one knows how the ancient laws may be improved, he must first persuade his own State of the improvement, and then he may legislate, but not otherwise.
STRANGER: They say that if anyone knows how to improve the old laws, they must first convince their own State of the improvement, and only then can they create new laws, but not before that.
YOUNG SOCRATES: And are they not right?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Are they not right?
STRANGER: I dare say. But supposing that he does use some gentle violence for their good, what is this violence to be called? Or rather, before you answer, let me ask the same question in reference to our previous instances.
STRANGER: I must say. But if he does use some gentle force for their benefit, what should we call this force? Or rather, before you answer, let me rephrase the same question regarding our earlier examples.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: Suppose that a skilful physician has a patient, of whatever sex or age, whom he compels against his will to do something for his good which is contrary to the written rules; what is this compulsion to be called? Would you ever dream of calling it a violation of the art, or a breach of the laws of health? Nothing could be more unjust than for the patient to whom such violence is applied, to charge the physician who practises the violence with wanting skill or aggravating his disease.
STRANGER: Imagine a talented doctor has a patient, regardless of gender or age, whom he forces against their will to do something beneficial for them that goes against established rules; what would you call this force? Would you ever think of calling it a violation of the practice or a breach of health laws? It would be completely unfair for the patient experiencing such force to accuse the doctor applying it of lacking skill or worsening their condition.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Most true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's so true.
STRANGER: In the political art error is not called disease, but evil, or disgrace, or injustice.
STRANGER: In politics, mistakes aren't seen as just errors; they're viewed as evil, disgraceful, or unjust.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: And when the citizen, contrary to law and custom, is compelled to do what is juster and better and nobler than he did before, the last and most absurd thing which he could say about such violence is that he has incurred disgrace or evil or injustice at the hands of those who compelled him.
STRANGER: And when a citizen, going against the law and tradition, is forced to do something fairer, better, and more honorable than before, the most ridiculous thing he could say about such coercion is that he has brought shame, harm, or injustice upon himself by those who pushed him into it.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: And shall we say that the violence, if exercised by a rich man, is just, and if by a poor man, unjust? May not any man, rich or poor, with or without laws, with the will of the citizens or against the will of the citizens, do what is for their interest? Is not this the true principle of government, according to which the wise and good man will order the affairs of his subjects? As the pilot, by watching continually over the interests of the ship and of the crew,—not by laying down rules, but by making his art a law,—preserves the lives of his fellow-sailors, even so, and in the self-same way, may there not be a true form of polity created by those who are able to govern in a similar spirit, and who show a strength of art which is superior to the law? Nor can wise rulers ever err while they observing the one great rule of distributing justice to the citizens with intelligence and skill, are able to preserve them, and, as far as may be, to make them better from being worse.
STRANGER: So, should we say that if a rich man uses violence, it's justified, but if a poor man does, it's not? Can’t any person, rich or poor, with or without laws, and whether the citizens agree or not, act in their own best interest? Isn’t this the real principle of government where a wise and good person would manage the affairs of their people? Just like a pilot who keeps a constant eye on the ship and crew's interests—not by setting rules, but by making his skills the guiding principle—ensures the safety of his crew, couldn’t we have a genuine form of government established by those who can lead with that same spirit and exhibit a level of expertise that surpasses the law? Wise leaders can’t go wrong as long as they adhere to the fundamental principle of fairly distributing justice to the citizens, using insight and skill to protect them and, as much as possible, to improve them rather than let them decline.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No one can deny what has been now said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No one can deny what has just been said.
STRANGER: Neither, if you consider, can any one deny the other statement.
STRANGER: Neither can anyone deny the other statement if you think about it.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What was that?
STRANGER: We said that no great number of persons, whoever they may be, can attain political knowledge, or order a State wisely, but that the true government is to be found in a small body, or in an individual, and that other States are but imitations of this, as we said a little while ago, some for the better and some for the worse.
STRANGER: We mentioned that no large group of people, no matter who they are, can achieve political understanding or run a State wisely. Instead, true governance exists in a small group or in one person, and that other States are just copies of this, as we discussed earlier, some being better and some worse.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean? I cannot have understood your previous remark about imitations.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean? I must have misunderstood your earlier comment about imitations.
STRANGER: And yet the mere suggestion which I hastily threw out is highly important, even if we leave the question where it is, and do not seek by the discussion of it to expose the error which prevails in this matter.
STRANGER: And yet the simple suggestion I quickly mentioned is really important, even if we keep the question as it is, and don't try to use the discussion to reveal the mistake that's common in this matter.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: The idea which has to be grasped by us is not easy or familiar; but we may attempt to express it thus:—Supposing the government of which I have been speaking to be the only true model, then the others must use the written laws of this—in no other way can they be saved; they will have to do what is now generally approved, although not the best thing in the world.
STRANGER: The concept we need to understand isn't simple or familiar; but we can try to put it this way: If the government I've been talking about is the only true model, then the others must follow its written laws—there's no other way for them to survive. They will have to do what is currently accepted, even if it isn’t the best option.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is this?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What's this?
STRANGER: No citizen should do anything contrary to the laws, and any infringement of them should be punished with death and the most extreme penalties; and this is very right and good when regarded as the second best thing, if you set aside the first, of which I was just now speaking. Shall I explain the nature of what I call the second best?
STRANGER: No citizen should act against the laws, and any violation of them should be punished with death and the harshest penalties; this is completely justified when considered as the second best option, if we ignore the first one I was just mentioning. Should I explain what I mean by the second best?
YOUNG SOCRATES: By all means.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: I must again have recourse to my favourite images; through them, and them alone, can I describe kings and rulers.
STRANGER: I have to rely on my favorite images again; only through them can I describe kings and rulers.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What images?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What pictures?
STRANGER: The noble pilot and the wise physician, who 'is worth many another man'—in the similitude of these let us endeavour to discover some image of the king.
STRANGER: The brave pilot and the knowledgeable doctor, who 'is worth many other men'—in the likeness of these, let's try to find some representation of the king.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What sort of an image?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What kind of image?
STRANGER: Well, such as this:—Every man will reflect that he suffers strange things at the hands of both of them; the physician saves any whom he wishes to save, and any whom he wishes to maltreat he maltreats—cutting or burning them; and at the same time requiring them to bring him payments, which are a sort of tribute, of which little or nothing is spent upon the sick man, and the greater part is consumed by him and his domestics; and the finale is that he receives money from the relations of the sick man or from some enemy of his, and puts him out of the way. And the pilots of ships are guilty of numberless evil deeds of the same kind; they intentionally play false and leave you ashore when the hour of sailing arrives; or they cause mishaps at sea and cast away their freight; and are guilty of other rogueries. Now suppose that we, bearing all this in mind, were to determine, after consideration, that neither of these arts shall any longer be allowed to exercise absolute control either over freemen or over slaves, but that we will summon an assembly either of all the people, or of the rich only, that anybody who likes, whatever may be his calling, or even if he have no calling, may offer an opinion either about seamanship or about diseases—whether as to the manner in which physic or surgical instruments are to be applied to the patient, or again about the vessels and the nautical implements which are required in navigation, and how to meet the dangers of winds and waves which are incidental to the voyage, how to behave when encountering pirates, and what is to be done with the old-fashioned galleys, if they have to fight with others of a similar build—and that, whatever shall be decreed by the multitude on these points, upon the advice of persons skilled or unskilled, shall be written down on triangular tablets and columns, or enacted although unwritten to be national customs; and that in all future time vessels shall be navigated and remedies administered to the patient after this fashion.
STRANGER: Well, here’s the thing: Every person feels that they experience strange things at the hands of both of these professions; the doctor saves whoever they want to save, and whoever they want to hurt, they hurt—cutting or burning them; and at the same time, they expect payments, which are like a tribute, most of which isn’t spent on the sick person, and the majority goes to them and their household. In the end, they take money from the sick person’s relatives or from some enemy and then eliminate the patient. Similarly, ship captains commit countless wrongdoings; they purposely deceive and leave you behind when it's time to set sail; or they cause accidents at sea and jettison their cargo; and they engage in other dishonest actions. Now imagine if we, bearing all this in mind, decided, after some thought, that neither of these fields should have complete control over free people or slaves anymore, but instead, we would hold an assembly of either all the people or just the wealthy, allowing anyone who wants to—regardless of their profession, or even if they have no profession—to share their opinion about navigation or health issues—concerning how medical treatment or surgical instruments should be used on patients, as well as how ships and navigational tools should be handled, how to deal with the risks of storms and waves that come with sailing, how to act when encountering pirates, and what to do with the old-style galleys if they need to fight others of the same design—and that whatever the crowd decides on these matters, based on advice from skilled or unskilled individuals, will be documented on triangular tablets and columns, or established even without written records as national customs; and that from now on, ships will be navigated and medical care will be administered in this way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What a strange notion!
YOUNG SOCRATES: That’s a weird idea!
STRANGER: Suppose further, that the pilots and physicians are appointed annually, either out of the rich, or out of the whole people, and that they are elected by lot; and that after their election they navigate vessels and heal the sick according to the written rules.
STRANGER: Let's say the pilots and doctors are chosen every year, either from the wealthy or from the entire population, and that they are selected by random draw; and after they're elected, they operate ships and treat the sick according to the established guidelines.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Worse and worse.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Getting worse and worse.
STRANGER: But hear what follows:—When the year of office has expired, the pilot or physician has to come before a court of review, in which the judges are either selected from the wealthy classes or chosen by lot out of the whole people; and anybody who pleases may be their accuser, and may lay to their charge, that during the past year they have not navigated their vessels or healed their patients according to the letter of the law and the ancient customs of their ancestors; and if either of them is condemned, some of the judges must fix what he is to suffer or pay.
STRANGER: But listen to this: When their term is up, the pilot or physician has to appear before a review board, where the judges are either picked from the wealthy class or drawn randomly from the general population. Anyone can step up as their accuser and claim that over the past year they didn’t manage their ships or treat their patients according to the law and the traditional practices of their ancestors. If either one of them is found guilty, some judges will determine the punishment or fine they should face.
YOUNG SOCRATES: He who is willing to take a command under such conditions, deserves to suffer any penalty.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Whoever is willing to take on a command under those conditions deserves to face any punishment.
STRANGER: Yet once more, we shall have to enact that if any one is detected enquiring into piloting and navigation, or into health and the true nature of medicine, or about the winds, or other conditions of the atmosphere, contrary to the written rules, and has any ingenious notions about such matters, he is not to be called a pilot or physician, but a cloudy prating sophist;—further, on the ground that he is a corrupter of the young, who would persuade them to follow the art of medicine or piloting in an unlawful manner, and to exercise an arbitrary rule over their patients or ships, any one who is qualified by law may inform against him, and indict him in some court, and then if he is found to be persuading any, whether young or old, to act contrary to the written law, he is to be punished with the utmost rigour; for no one should presume to be wiser than the laws; and as touching healing and health and piloting and navigation, the nature of them is known to all, for anybody may learn the written laws and the national customs. If such were the mode of procedure, Socrates, about these sciences and about generalship, and any branch of hunting, or about painting or imitation in general, or carpentry, or any sort of handicraft, or husbandry, or planting, or if we were to see an art of rearing horses, or tending herds, or divination, or any ministerial service, or draught-playing, or any science conversant with number, whether simple or square or cube, or comprising motion,—I say, if all these things were done in this way according to written regulations, and not according to art, what would be the result?
STRANGER: Once again, we need to establish that if anyone is found asking questions about piloting and navigation, or about health and the true nature of medicine, or about the winds and other atmospheric conditions, against the established rules, and has any clever ideas about these topics, he shouldn't be considered a pilot or a physician, but rather a confused talker who spreads nonsense. Furthermore, since he corrupts the youth by trying to lead them to practice medicine or piloting in an improper way and to impose their own arbitrary control over patients or ships, anyone who is legally qualified may report him and charge him in court. If he is found to be persuading anyone, young or old, to act against the written law, he should face severe punishment; no one should claim to be wiser than the laws. When it comes to healing, health, piloting, and navigation, these are understood by everyone, as anyone can learn the written laws and the customs of the community. If such a process were applied, Socrates, to these sciences as well as to leadership, any form of hunting, painting, or imitation in general, carpentry, any trade, farming, planting, or if we examined horse breeding, livestock care, divination, any service role, board games, or any numerical science—whether basic, squared, or cubed, or involving motion—if all these things were conducted strictly according to written regulations rather than according to true skill, what would happen?
YOUNG SOCRATES: All the arts would utterly perish, and could never be recovered, because enquiry would be unlawful. And human life, which is bad enough already, would then become utterly unendurable.
YOUNG SOCRATES: All the arts would completely disappear and could never be regained, because questioning would be illegal. And human life, which is already difficult enough, would then become completely unbearable.
STRANGER: But what, if while compelling all these operations to be regulated by written law, we were to appoint as the guardian of the laws some one elected by a show of hands, or by lot, and he caring nothing about the laws, were to act contrary to them from motives of interest or favour, and without knowledge,—would not this be a still worse evil than the former?
STRANGER: But what if, while making sure all these activities are controlled by written laws, we chose someone to be the guardian of those laws through a vote or random selection, and that person didn’t care about the laws at all? If they acted against the laws for their own benefit or favoritism, without even understanding them—wouldn’t that be an even greater problem than before?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: To go against the laws, which are based upon long experience, and the wisdom of counsellors who have graciously recommended them and persuaded the multitude to pass them, would be a far greater and more ruinous error than any adherence to written law?
STRANGER: To go against laws that are built on extensive experience and the advice of wise counselors who have kindly suggested them and convinced the public to adopt them would be a much bigger and more destructive mistake than sticking to the written law?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: Therefore, as there is a danger of this, the next best thing in legislating is not to allow either the individual or the multitude to break the law in any respect whatever.
STRANGER: So, since there is a risk of this, the best approach in making laws is to ensure that neither individuals nor groups are allowed to break the law in any way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: The laws would be copies of the true particulars of action as far as they admit of being written down from the lips of those who have knowledge?
STRANGER: The laws would be written versions of the actual details of actions, as much as they can be captured from the words of those who know?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly they would.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course they would.
STRANGER: And, as we were saying, he who has knowledge and is a true Statesman, will do many things within his own sphere of action by his art without regard to the laws, when he is of opinion that something other than that which he has written down and enjoined to be observed during his absence would be better.
STRANGER: And, as we were saying, someone who has knowledge and is a true statesman will do many things within his own area of responsibility using his skills, regardless of the laws, if he believes that something other than what he has written down and required to be followed in his absence would be better.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, we said so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, we did say that.
STRANGER: And any individual or any number of men, having fixed laws, in acting contrary to them with a view to something better, would only be acting, as far as they are able, like the true Statesman?
STRANGER: So anyone, whether it's one person or a group, who has established laws and chooses to act against them in pursuit of something better, is essentially trying, as best they can, to be like a true Statesman?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: If they had no knowledge of what they were doing, they would imitate the truth, and they would always imitate ill; but if they had knowledge, the imitation would be the perfect truth, and an imitation no longer.
STRANGER: If they didn’t understand what they were doing, they would just copy the truth, and they would always copy it poorly; but if they did understand, the imitation would become the true truth, and it wouldn't be an imitation anymore.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: And the principle that no great number of men are able to acquire a knowledge of any art has been already admitted by us.
STRANGER: And we've already agreed that most people can't really learn any art.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, it has.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, it has.
STRANGER: Then the royal or political art, if there be such an art, will never be attained either by the wealthy or by the other mob.
STRANGER: So, the art of royalty or politics, if it exists, will never be mastered by the rich or by the other crowd.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No way.
STRANGER: Then the nearest approach which these lower forms of government can ever make to the true government of the one scientific ruler, is to do nothing contrary to their own written laws and national customs.
STRANGER: So, the closest these basic forms of government can get to the true leadership of a single scientific ruler is to stick to their own written laws and national customs.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds great.
STRANGER: When the rich imitate the true form, such a government is called aristocracy; and when they are regardless of the laws, oligarchy.
STRANGER: When the wealthy mimic the true form, that type of government is called aristocracy; and when they disregard the laws, it's called oligarchy.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: Or again, when an individual rules according to law in imitation of him who knows, we call him a king; and if he rules according to law, we give him the same name, whether he rules with opinion or with knowledge.
STRANGER: Or again, when someone governs based on the law, trying to be like the one who truly knows, we call them a king; and if they govern by the law, we use the same term for them, whether they do so with just an opinion or with actual knowledge.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And when an individual truly possessing knowledge rules, his name will surely be the same—he will be called a king; and thus the five names of governments, as they are now reckoned, become one.
STRANGER: And when a person who truly has knowledge is in charge, his name will definitely be the same—he will be called a king; and so the five types of governments, as they are recognized now, become one.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: And when an individual ruler governs neither by law nor by custom, but following in the steps of the true man of science pretends that he can only act for the best by violating the laws, while in reality appetite and ignorance are the motives of the imitation, may not such an one be called a tyrant?
STRANGER: And when a ruler acts without law or custom, claiming to do what’s best by breaking the rules, while actually being driven by desire and ignorance, can we not call that person a tyrant?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: And this we believe to be the origin of the tyrant and the king, of oligarchies, and aristocracies, and democracies,—because men are offended at the one monarch, and can never be made to believe that any one can be worthy of such authority, or is able and willing in the spirit of virtue and knowledge to act justly and holily to all; they fancy that he will be a despot who will wrong and harm and slay whom he pleases of us; for if there could be such a despot as we describe, they would acknowledge that we ought to be too glad to have him, and that he alone would be the happy ruler of a true and perfect State.
STRANGER: We believe this is the origin of tyrants, kings, oligarchies, aristocracies, and democracies. People are put off by a single monarch and can't believe anyone could deserve that kind of power, or that anyone is capable and willing to act justly and virtuously towards everyone. They imagine he would be a tyrant who could mistreat, harm, and kill whoever he wants; because if such a tyrant could exist as we describe, they would agree that we should be more than happy to have him, and that he alone would be the ideal ruler of a true and perfect state.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: But then, as the State is not like a beehive, and has no natural head who is at once recognized to be the superior both in body and in mind, mankind are obliged to meet and make laws, and endeavour to approach as nearly as they can to the true form of government.
STRANGER: But then, since the State isn't like a beehive and doesn't have a natural leader who is obviously superior in both body and mind, people have to come together to create laws and try their best to achieve the ideal form of government.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's true.
STRANGER: And when the foundation of politics is in the letter only and in custom, and knowledge is divorced from action, can we wonder, Socrates, at the miseries which there are, and always will be, in States? Any other art, built on such a foundation and thus conducted, would ruin all that it touched. Ought we not rather to wonder at the natural strength of the political bond? For States have endured all this, time out of mind, and yet some of them still remain and are not overthrown, though many of them, like ships at sea, founder from time to time, and perish and have perished and will hereafter perish, through the badness of their pilots and crews, who have the worst sort of ignorance of the highest truths—I mean to say, that they are wholly unaquainted with politics, of which, above all other sciences, they believe themselves to have acquired the most perfect knowledge.
STRANGER: And when the foundation of politics relies only on written laws and customs, and knowledge is separated from action, can we really be surprised, Socrates, by the suffering that exists now and will continue to exist in societies? Any other field of work based on such foundations and managed this way would ruin everything it touches. Shouldn’t we instead be amazed by the inherent strength of the political bond? After all, societies have survived all of this for ages, and yet some still exist and haven’t been destroyed, even though many, like ships at sea, occasionally sink and perish, affected by the incompetence of their leaders and crew members, who are thoroughly ignorant of the fundamental truths—specifically, that they are completely untrained in politics, which they mistakenly believe they understand better than any other discipline.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: Then the question arises:—which of these untrue forms of government is the least oppressive to their subjects, though they are all oppressive; and which is the worst of them? Here is a consideration which is beside our present purpose, and yet having regard to the whole it seems to influence all our actions: we must examine it.
STRANGER: Then the question comes up: which of these false forms of government is the least oppressive to the people, even though they are all oppressive? And which one is the worst? This is something that isn’t our main focus right now, but it seems to affect all our actions when we consider the bigger picture: we need to look into it.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, we must.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, we need to.
STRANGER: You may say that of the three forms, the same is at once the hardest and the easiest.
STRANGER: You could say that of the three forms, the same is both the hardest and the easiest at the same time.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: I am speaking of the three forms of government, which I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion—monarchy, the rule of the few, and the rule of the many.
STRANGER: I'm talking about the three types of government I mentioned at the start of this discussion—monarchy, the rule of a few, and the rule of the many.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: If we divide each of these we shall have six, from which the true one may be distinguished as a seventh.
STRANGER: If we break each of these down, we'll get six, from which the true one can be identified as the seventh.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you make the division?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How would you split it up?
STRANGER: Monarchy divides into royalty and tyranny; the rule of the few into aristocracy, which has an auspicious name, and oligarchy; and democracy or the rule of the many, which before was one, must now be divided.
STRANGER: Monarchy splits into royalty and tyranny; the rule of the few divides into aristocracy, which has a positive connotation, and oligarchy; and democracy, or the rule of the many, which used to be unified, now needs to be divided.
YOUNG SOCRATES: On what principle of division?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What basis are we using for the division?
STRANGER: On the same principle as before, although the name is now discovered to have a twofold meaning. For the distinction of ruling with law or without law, applies to this as well as to the rest.
STRANGER: Following the same principle as before, although the name is now found to have two meanings. The difference between ruling with law or without law applies to this just like it does to everything else.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: The division made no difference when we were looking for the perfect State, as we showed before. But now that this has been separated off, and, as we said, the others alone are left for us, the principle of law and the absence of law will bisect them all.
STRANGER: The division didn't matter when we were searching for the ideal State, as we mentioned earlier. But now that this has been separated out, and, as we said, only the others are left for us, the principle of law and the lack of law will cut through them all.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That would seem to follow, from what has been said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That seems to be the conclusion based on what we've talked about.
STRANGER: Then monarchy, when bound by good prescriptions or laws, is the best of all the six, and when lawless is the most bitter and oppressive to the subject.
STRANGER: So, when monarchy is guided by proper rules or laws, it's the best of all six forms of government, but when it's lawless, it becomes the most harsh and oppressive for the people.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
Young Socrates: True.
STRANGER: The government of the few, which is intermediate between that of the one and many, is also intermediate in good and evil; but the government of the many is in every respect weak and unable to do either any great good or any great evil, when compared with the others, because the offices are too minutely subdivided and too many hold them. And this therefore is the worst of all lawful governments, and the best of all lawless ones. If they are all without the restraints of law, democracy is the form in which to live is best; if they are well ordered, then this is the last which you should choose, as royalty, the first form, is the best, with the exception of the seventh, for that excels them all, and is among States what God is among men.
STRANGER: The government ruled by a few, which sits between the rule of one and many, also balances between good and evil; however, the government of the many is, in every way, weak and incapable of achieving significant good or significant evil compared to the others, because the roles are overly divided and too many people hold them. Therefore, this is the worst of all lawful governments, but the best of all lawless ones. If none of them are bound by laws, democracy is the best way to live; if they are organized well, then this should be the last option you choose, as monarchy, the first form, is the best, except for the seventh, as it surpasses them all and is to states what God is to mankind.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You are quite right, and we should choose that above all.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You’re absolutely right, and we should prioritize that above everything else.
STRANGER: The members of all these States, with the exception of the one which has knowledge, may be set aside as being not Statesmen but partisans,—upholders of the most monstrous idols, and themselves idols; and, being the greatest imitators and magicians, they are also the greatest of Sophists.
STRANGER: The people of all these States, except for the one that has knowledge, can be dismissed as not being true Statesmen but instead partisans—supporters of the most outrageous idols, and themselves idols; and since they are the best imitators and tricksters, they are also the most skilled Sophists.
YOUNG SOCRATES: The name of Sophist after many windings in the argument appears to have been most justly fixed upon the politicians, as they are termed.
YOUNG SOCRATES: The term Sophist, after many twists in the discussion, seems to have been most appropriately assigned to the politicians, as they're called.
STRANGER: And so our satyric drama has been played out; and the troop of Centaurs and Satyrs, however unwilling to leave the stage, have at last been separated from the political science.
STRANGER: And so our satirical play has ended; the group of Centaurs and Satyrs, though reluctant to leave the stage, have finally been separated from political science.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So I perceive.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Got it.
STRANGER: There remain, however, natures still more troublesome, because they are more nearly akin to the king, and more difficult to discern; the examination of them may be compared to the process of refining gold.
STRANGER: However, there are still more challenging personalities because they are closer to the king and harder to identify; analyzing them is like the process of refining gold.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is your meaning?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: The workmen begin by sifting away the earth and stones and the like; there remain in a confused mass the valuable elements akin to gold, which can only be separated by fire,—copper, silver, and other precious metal; these are at last refined away by the use of tests, until the gold is left quite pure.
STRANGER: The workers start by filtering out the dirt and rocks and stuff; what’s left is a mixed pile of valuable materials similar to gold, which can only be separated through fire—copper, silver, and other precious metals; these are finally purified with tests until only the pure gold remains.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, that is the way in which these things are said to be done.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah, that's how these things are said to be done.
STRANGER: In like manner, all alien and uncongenial matter has been separated from political science, and what is precious and of a kindred nature has been left; there remain the nobler arts of the general and the judge, and the higher sort of oratory which is an ally of the royal art, and persuades men to do justice, and assists in guiding the helm of States:—How can we best clear away all these, leaving him whom we seek alone and unalloyed?
STRANGER: Similarly, all unrelated and unsuitable topics have been removed from political science, leaving only what is valuable and related. What remains are the greater skills of the general and the judge, along with the higher form of rhetoric that supports the royal art, persuading people to act justly and helping to steer the direction of States:—How can we most effectively eliminate all these distractions, leaving only the one we seek, pure and unchanged?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is obviously what has in some way to be attempted.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That’s clearly something we need to try to do.
STRANGER: If the attempt is all that is wanting, he shall certainly be brought to light; and I think that the illustration of music may assist in exhibiting him. Please to answer me a question.
STRANGER: If all it takes is an attempt, he will definitely be revealed; and I believe that using music as an example might help show him. Please answer me a question.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What question?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Which question?
STRANGER: There is such a thing as learning music or handicraft arts in general?
STRANGER: Is there really such a thing as learning music or crafts in general?
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, there is.
STRANGER: And is there any higher art or science, having power to decide which of these arts are and are not to be learned;—what do you say?
STRANGER: Is there any greater art or science that has the authority to determine which of these arts should or shouldn’t be learned? What’s your take?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I should answer that there is.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I should say that there is.
STRANGER: And do we acknowledge this science to be different from the others?
STRANGER: Do we recognize this science as different from the others?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: And ought the other sciences to be superior to this, or no single science to any other? Or ought this science to be the overseer and governor of all the others?
STRANGER: Should the other sciences be considered superior to this one, or should no single science be ranked higher than another? Or should this science oversee and govern all the others?
YOUNG SOCRATES: The latter.
YOUNG SOCRATES: The second one.
STRANGER: You mean to say that the science which judges whether we ought to learn or not, must be superior to the science which is learned or which teaches?
STRANGER: Are you saying that the science that decides whether we should learn or not is superior to the science that is learned or that teaches?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Far superior.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Much better.
STRANGER: And the science which determines whether we ought to persuade or not, must be superior to the science which is able to persuade?
STRANGER: So, the knowledge that tells us if we should persuade or not must be greater than the knowledge that can actually persuade?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
Young Socrates: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Very good; and to what science do we assign the power of persuading a multitude by a pleasing tale and not by teaching?
STRANGER: Very well; so which field allows us to persuade a crowd with a captivating story rather than through instruction?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That power, I think, must clearly be assigned to rhetoric.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I believe that power should definitely be attributed to rhetoric.
STRANGER: And to what science do we give the power of determining whether we are to employ persuasion or force towards any one, or to refrain altogether?
STRANGER: And what knowledge do we trust to decide whether we should use persuasion or force on someone, or just hold back completely?
YOUNG SOCRATES: To that science which governs the arts of speech and persuasion.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To the field that controls the skills of communication and persuasion.
STRANGER: Which, if I am not mistaken, will be politics?
STRANGER: Which, if I'm not mistaken, will be politics?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
Young Socrates: Sounds great.
STRANGER: Rhetoric seems to be quickly distinguished from politics, being a different species, yet ministering to it.
STRANGER: Rhetoric is clearly different from politics; they’re not the same thing, but rhetoric serves a role in politics.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: But what would you think of another sort of power or science?
STRANGER: But what do you think about a different kind of power or science?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What science?
What science?
STRANGER: The science which has to do with military operations against our enemies—is that to be regarded as a science or not?
STRANGER: Should the science associated with military operations against our enemies be considered a science or not?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can generalship and military tactics be regarded as other than a science?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How can we see leadership and military strategy as anything but a science?
STRANGER: And is the art which is able and knows how to advise when we are to go to war, or to make peace, the same as this or different?
STRANGER: Is the art that can advise us when to go to war or when to make peace the same as this one, or is it different?
YOUNG SOCRATES: If we are to be consistent, we must say different.
YOUNG SOCRATES: If we want to be consistent, we have to say something different.
STRANGER: And we must also suppose that this rules the other, if we are not to give up our former notion?
STRANGER: And we also have to assume that this controls the other, if we don’t want to abandon our previous idea?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And, considering how great and terrible the whole art of war is, can we imagine any which is superior to it but the truly royal?
STRANGER: And when we think about how amazing and terrifying the entire art of war is, can we picture anything that surpasses it except for something truly regal?
YOUNG SOCRATES: No other.
YOUNG SOCRATES: None other.
STRANGER: The art of the general is only ministerial, and therefore not political?
STRANGER: So, the general's skill is just administrative and not really political?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: Once more let us consider the nature of the righteous judge.
STRANGER: Let's take another look at what the righteous judge is really like.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Awesome.
STRANGER: Does he do anything but decide the dealings of men with one another to be just or unjust in accordance with the standard which he receives from the king and legislator,—showing his own peculiar virtue only in this, that he is not perverted by gifts, or fears, or pity, or by any sort of favour or enmity, into deciding the suits of men with one another contrary to the appointment of the legislator?
STRANGER: Is his only job to determine whether people's interactions are fair or unfair based on the standards set by the king and lawmakers? Does he really show his unique virtue just by not being influenced by bribes, fears, compassion, or any kind of favoritism or hostility when making decisions about people's disputes?
YOUNG SOCRATES: No; his office is such as you describe.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No, his job is exactly as you described.
STRANGER: Then the inference is that the power of the judge is not royal, but only the power of a guardian of the law which ministers to the royal power?
STRANGER: So, the conclusion is that the judge's power isn't royal, but just the authority of a guardian of the law that serves the royal power?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: The review of all these sciences shows that none of them is political or royal. For the truly royal ought not itself to act, but to rule over those who are able to act; the king ought to know what is and what is not a fitting opportunity for taking the initiative in matters of the greatest importance, whilst others should execute his orders.
STRANGER: The review of all these sciences shows that none of them is political or royal. For the truly royal shouldn't act on its own but should oversee those who can take action; the king should understand what is and isn't the right moment to take initiative on the most significant issues, while others should carry out his commands.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
True.
STRANGER: And, therefore, the arts which we have described, as they have no authority over themselves or one another, but are each of them concerned with some special action of their own, have, as they ought to have, special names corresponding to their several actions.
STRANGER: So, the arts we've talked about, since they don't have authority over themselves or each other, but each focuses on a specific action of its own, should indeed have unique names that reflect their individual actions.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I agree.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Same here.
STRANGER: And the science which is over them all, and has charge of the laws, and of all matters affecting the State, and truly weaves them all into one, if we would describe under a name characteristic of their common nature, most truly we may call politics.
STRANGER: And the science that governs everything, managing the laws and all issues affecting the State, and truly bringing them all together as one, if we were to describe it using a name that reflects their shared essence, we could most accurately call it politics.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly so.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: Then, now that we have discovered the various classes in a State, shall I analyse politics after the pattern which weaving supplied?
STRANGER: So, now that we've identified the different classes in a State, should I analyze politics the way weaving shows us?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I greatly wish that you would.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I really hope you will.
STRANGER: Then I must describe the nature of the royal web, and show how the various threads are woven into one piece.
STRANGER: Then I need to describe the nature of the royal web and show how the different threads are woven together into one piece.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Totally.
STRANGER: A task has to be accomplished, which, although difficult, appears to be necessary.
STRANGER: We need to get something done that, even though it's tough, seems necessary.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly the attempt must be made.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course, we have to give it a try.
STRANGER: To assume that one part of virtue differs in kind from another, is a position easily assailable by contentious disputants, who appeal to popular opinion.
STRANGER: To believe that one aspect of virtue is fundamentally different from another is a claim that's easily challenged by argumentative debaters who reference common beliefs.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not understand.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I don’t get it.
STRANGER: Let me put the matter in another way: I suppose that you would consider courage to be a part of virtue?
STRANGER: Let me put it another way: I assume you would think of courage as a part of virtue?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly I should.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course I should.
STRANGER: And you would think temperance to be different from courage; and likewise to be a part of virtue?
STRANGER: So, you believe that temperance is different from courage, and that it’s also a part of virtue?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Correct.
STRANGER: I shall venture to put forward a strange theory about them.
STRANGER: I’m going to propose a weird theory about them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
What is it?
STRANGER: That they are two principles which thoroughly hate one another and are antagonistic throughout a great part of nature.
STRANGER: That there are two principles that completely despise each other and are in conflict throughout much of nature.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How singular!
YOUNG SOCRATES: How unique!
STRANGER: Yes, very—for all the parts of virtue are commonly said to be friendly to one another.
STRANGER: Yes, definitely—because all aspects of virtue are usually considered to support each other.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yeah.
STRANGER: Then let us carefully investigate whether this is universally true, or whether there are not parts of virtue which are at war with their kindred in some respect.
STRANGER: Then let's take a close look at whether this is universally true, or if there are aspects of virtue that conflict with their related counterparts in some way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Tell me how we shall consider that question.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Can you explain how we should think about that question?
STRANGER: We must extend our enquiry to all those things which we consider beautiful and at the same time place in two opposite classes.
STRANGER: We need to broaden our investigation to include everything we deem beautiful while also categorizing them into two opposing groups.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Explain; what are they?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Can you explain what they are?
STRANGER: Acuteness and quickness, whether in body or soul or in the movement of sound, and the imitations of them which painting and music supply, you must have praised yourself before now, or been present when others praised them.
STRANGER: Sharpness and speed, whether in body or spirit, or in how sound moves, along with the imitations of these things that painting and music provide, you must have appreciated yourself before now, or been there when others praised them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course.
STRANGER: And do you remember the terms in which they are praised?
STRANGER: Do you remember how they are praised?
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I don’t.
STRANGER: I wonder whether I can explain to you in words the thought which is passing in my mind.
STRANGER: I’m curious if I can explain to you what’s going through my mind right now.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Why not?
STRANGER: You fancy that this is all so easy: Well, let us consider these notions with reference to the opposite classes of action under which they fall. When we praise quickness and energy and acuteness, whether of mind or body or sound, we express our praise of the quality which we admire by one word, and that one word is manliness or courage.
STRANGER: You think this is all so easy? Well, let’s think about these ideas in relation to the opposite types of actions they represent. When we appreciate quickness, energy, and sharpness—whether in thought, physical ability, or sound—we sum up our admiration for these qualities with one word, and that word is manliness or courage.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
STRANGER: We speak of an action as energetic and brave, quick and manly, and vigorous too; and when we apply the name of which I speak as the common attribute of all these natures, we certainly praise them.
STRANGER: We talk about an action as being energetic, brave, fast, manly, and vigorous too; and when we use the name I’m referring to as the common trait of all these qualities, we definitely praise them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: And do we not often praise the quiet strain of action also?
STRANGER: And don't we often appreciate the calm way of taking action too?
YOUNG SOCRATES: To be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And do we not then say the opposite of what we said of the other?
STRANGER: So, do we not say the exact opposite of what we said about the other?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: We exclaim How calm! How temperate! in admiration of the slow and quiet working of the intellect, and of steadiness and gentleness in action, of smoothness and depth of voice, and of all rhythmical movement and of music in general, when these have a proper solemnity. Of all such actions we predicate not courage, but a name indicative of order.
STRANGER: We exclaim, "How calm! How serene!" in admiration of the slow and quiet workings of the mind, of steadiness and gentleness in action, of a smooth and deep voice, and of all rhythmic movement and music in general, when they carry a proper sense of seriousness. For all these actions, we don't attribute courage, but rather a term that suggests order.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: So true.
STRANGER: But when, on the other hand, either of these is out of place, the names of either are changed into terms of censure.
STRANGER: But when, on the other hand, either of these is off, the names of either are switched to terms of criticism.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How's that?
STRANGER: Too great sharpness or quickness or hardness is termed violence or madness; too great slowness or gentleness is called cowardice or sluggishness; and we may observe, that for the most part these qualities, and the temperance and manliness of the opposite characters, are arrayed as enemies on opposite sides, and do not mingle with one another in their respective actions; and if we pursue the enquiry, we shall find that men who have these different qualities of mind differ from one another.
STRANGER: Too much sharpness, quickness, or hardness is seen as violence or madness; too much slowness or gentleness is considered cowardice or sluggishness. We can observe that these qualities, along with the moderation and strength of the opposing traits, are usually set against each other and do not mix in their actions. If we dig deeper, we will find that men with these different qualities of mind differ from one another.
YOUNG SOCRATES: In what respect?
YOUNG SOCRATES: In what way?
STRANGER: In respect of all the qualities which I mentioned, and very likely of many others. According to their respective affinities to either class of actions they distribute praise and blame,—praise to the actions which are akin to their own, blame to those of the opposite party—and out of this many quarrels and occasions of quarrel arise among them.
STRANGER: In terms of all the qualities I mentioned, and probably many more, they assign praise and blame based on their connections to either class of actions—praising actions similar to their own and blaming those from the opposing side—and this leads to many conflicts and reasons for conflict among them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Right.
STRANGER: The difference between the two classes is often a trivial concern; but in a state, and when affecting really important matters, becomes of all disorders the most hateful.
STRANGER: The difference between the two classes is often a minor issue; however, in a state, and when it impacts truly significant matters, it becomes the most unpleasant of all problems.
YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What are you talking about?
STRANGER: To nothing short of the whole regulation of human life. For the orderly class are always ready to lead a peaceful life, quietly doing their own business; this is their manner of behaving with all men at home, and they are equally ready to find some way of keeping the peace with foreign States. And on account of this fondness of theirs for peace, which is often out of season where their influence prevails, they become by degrees unwarlike, and bring up their young men to be like themselves; they are at the mercy of their enemies; whence in a few years they and their children and the whole city often pass imperceptibly from the condition of freemen into that of slaves.
STRANGER: To nothing less than the complete management of human life. The orderly people are always ready to live peacefully, quietly going about their own business; this is how they interact with everyone at home, and they are just as prepared to find a way to keep the peace with other countries. Because of their love for peace, which can be out of place where their influence is strong, they gradually become non-militant and raise their young men to be the same; they are left vulnerable to their enemies. As a result, in just a few years, they and their children, along with the entire city, often transition unnoticed from being free individuals to becoming slaves.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What a cruel fate!
YOUNG SOCRATES: What a harsh destiny!
STRANGER: And now think of what happens with the more courageous natures. Are they not always inciting their country to go to war, owing to their excessive love of the military life? they raise up enemies against themselves many and mighty, and either utterly ruin their native-land or enslave and subject it to its foes?
STRANGER: Now, consider what happens with bolder individuals. Aren't they always pushing their country to go to war because of their intense love for military life? They create many powerful enemies for themselves and either completely destroy their homeland or make it subject to its adversaries?
YOUNG SOCRATES: That, again, is true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: Must we not admit, then, that where these two classes exist, they always feel the greatest antipathy and antagonism towards one another?
STRANGER: Don't we have to admit that where these two classes exist, they always feel the strongest dislike and opposition towards each other?
YOUNG SOCRATES: We cannot deny it.
YOUNG SOCRATES: We can't deny it.
STRANGER: And returning to the enquiry with which we began, have we not found that considerable portions of virtue are at variance with one another, and give rise to a similar opposition in the characters who are endowed with them?
STRANGER: So, going back to the question we started with, haven’t we found that significant parts of virtue can conflict with each other and create similar clashes in the characters who possess them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's right.
STRANGER: Let us consider a further point.
STRANGER: Let's think about another point.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What’s that?
STRANGER: I want to know, whether any constructive art will make any, even the most trivial thing, out of bad and good materials indifferently, if this can be helped? does not all art rather reject the bad as far as possible, and accept the good and fit materials, and from these elements, whether like or unlike, gathering them all into one, work out some nature or idea?
STRANGER: I want to know if any kind of creative work can make something, even the simplest thing, using both good and bad materials when it can be avoided. Doesn’t all art aim to reject the bad as much as possible and embrace the good, suitable materials? And from these elements, whether they’re similar or different, doesn’t it consolidate them into one to create some nature or idea?
YOUNG SOCRATES: To, be sure.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: Then the true and natural art of statesmanship will never allow any State to be formed by a combination of good and bad men, if this can be avoided; but will begin by testing human natures in play, and after testing them, will entrust them to proper teachers who are the ministers of her purposes—she will herself give orders, and maintain authority; just as the art of weaving continually gives orders and maintains authority over the carders and all the others who prepare the material for the work, commanding the subsidiary arts to execute the works which she deems necessary for making the web.
STRANGER: The true and natural skill of statesmanship will never allow a State to be formed by mixing good and bad people, if it can be avoided. Instead, it will start by evaluating human nature through play, and once that’s done, it will hand them over to suitable teachers who serve its goals. It will give direction and maintain control, just like the art of weaving continuously instructs and oversees the spinners and others who prepare the materials for the job, directing the supporting crafts to carry out the tasks it thinks are essential for creating the fabric.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: You're right.
STRANGER: In like manner, the royal science appears to me to be the mistress of all lawful educators and instructors, and having this queenly power, will not permit them to train men in what will produce characters unsuited to the political constitution which she desires to create, but only in what will produce such as are suitable. Those which have no share of manliness and temperance, or any other virtuous inclination, and, from the necessity of an evil nature, are violently carried away to godlessness and insolence and injustice, she gets rid of by death and exile, and punishes them with the greatest of disgraces.
STRANGER: Similarly, royal knowledge seems to me to be the master of all legitimate educators and instructors. With this powerful authority, it won’t allow them to teach people in ways that create characters that don’t fit the political system it aims to establish, but only in ways that produce suitable individuals. Those lacking courage, self-control, or any other virtuous traits, who, due to their flawed nature, are led towards immorality, arrogance, and injustice, she eliminates through death and exile, punishing them with the utmost disgrace.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That is commonly said.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's something people often say.
STRANGER: But those who are wallowing in ignorance and baseness she bows under the yoke of slavery.
STRANGER: But those who are stuck in ignorance and lowliness are burdened by the weight of slavery.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite right.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly.
STRANGER: The rest of the citizens, out of whom, if they have education, something noble may be made, and who are capable of being united by the statesman, the kingly art blends and weaves together; taking on the one hand those whose natures tend rather to courage, which is the stronger element and may be regarded as the warp, and on the other hand those which incline to order and gentleness, and which are represented in the figure as spun thick and soft, after the manner of the woof—these, which are naturally opposed, she seeks to bind and weave together in the following manner:
STRANGER: The other citizens, who can become something great if they receive an education, can be brought together by a skilled leader. The art of ruling intertwines both groups: on one side, those who are naturally more courageous, which is the stronger quality and can be seen as the warp, and on the other side, those who lean towards order and gentleness, represented as dense and soft, like the woof. She aims to unite and blend these opposing natures in the following way:
YOUNG SOCRATES: In what manner?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
STRANGER: First of all, she takes the eternal element of the soul and binds it with a divine cord, to which it is akin, and then the animal nature, and binds that with human cords.
STRANGER: First of all, she takes the everlasting essence of the soul and ties it with a divine thread, to which it is similar, and then the animal instinct, and connects that with human ties.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I do not understand what you mean.
YOUNG SOCRATES: I don’t get what you’re saying.
STRANGER: The meaning is, that the opinion about the honourable and the just and good and their opposites, which is true and confirmed by reason, is a divine principle, and when implanted in the soul, is implanted, as I maintain, in a nature of heavenly birth.
STRANGER: The meaning is that the views on what is honorable, just, and good, as well as their opposites, which are true and supported by reason, are a divine principle. When these views take root in the soul, I believe they are embedded in a nature of heavenly origin.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes; what else should it be?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Of course; what else could it be?
STRANGER: Only the Statesman and the good legislator, having the inspiration of the royal muse, can implant this opinion, and he, only in the rightly educated, whom we were just now describing.
STRANGER: Only a good leader and a wise legislator, inspired by the royal muse, can instill this belief, and only in those who have received proper education, as we were just discussing.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Likely enough.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Probably.
STRANGER: But him who cannot, we will not designate by any of the names which are the subject of the present enquiry.
STRANGER: But we won't refer to anyone who can't do that by any of the names that we are currently discussing.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very right.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Exactly right.
STRANGER: The courageous soul when attaining this truth becomes civilized, and rendered more capable of partaking of justice; but when not partaking, is inclined to brutality. Is not that true?
STRANGER: When a brave person understands this truth, they become civilized and better able to engage with justice; but when they don’t engage, they tend to become brutal. Isn’t that right?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
YOUNG SOCRATES: For sure.
STRANGER: And again, the peaceful and orderly nature, if sharing in these opinions, becomes temperate and wise, as far as this may be in a State, but if not, deservedly obtains the ignominious name of silliness.
STRANGER: And again, the calm and organized nature, if in agreement with these views, becomes moderate and wise, as much as this can be in a society, but if not, justly earns the shameful label of foolishness.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That's definitely true.
STRANGER: Can we say that such a connexion as this will lastingly unite the evil with one another or with the good, or that any science would seriously think of using a bond of this kind to join such materials?
STRANGER: Can we say that a connection like this will permanently link the evil with one another or with the good, or that any scientific discipline would seriously consider using a bond like this to connect such elements?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Impossible.
YOUNG SOCRATES: No way.
STRANGER: But in those who were originally of a noble nature, and who have been nurtured in noble ways, and in those only, may we not say that union is implanted by law, and that this is the medicine which art prescribes for them, and of all the bonds which unite the dissimilar and contrary parts of virtue is not this, as I was saying, the divinest?
STRANGER: But for those who originally have a noble nature and who have been raised in noble ways, can we not say that their union is established by law, and that this is the remedy that art suggests for them? And among all the connections that bring together the different and opposing aspects of virtue, isn't this, as I mentioned before, the most divine?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely.
STRANGER: Where this divine bond exists there is no difficulty in imagining, or when you have imagined, in creating the other bonds, which are human only.
STRANGER: Where this divine connection exists, it's easy to imagine, or once you've imagined it, to create the other connections that are purely human.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How is that, and what bonds do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean by that, and what connections are you talking about?
STRANGER: Rights of intermarriage, and ties which are formed between States by giving and taking children in marriage, or between individuals by private betrothals and espousals. For most persons form marriage connexions without due regard to what is best for the procreation of children.
STRANGER: Rights of intermarriage and the connections that are created between states by giving and taking children in marriage, or between individuals through private engagements and marriages. Most people enter into marriage relationships without properly considering what is best for having children.
YOUNG SOCRATES: In what way?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
STRANGER: They seek after wealth and power, which in matrimony are objects not worthy even of a serious censure.
STRANGER: They chase after wealth and power, which in marriage are pursuits not even deserving of serious criticism.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is no need to consider them at all.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There's no need to think about them at all.
STRANGER: More reason is there to consider the practice of those who make family their chief aim, and to indicate their error.
STRANGER: There's more reason to reflect on the choices of those who prioritize family as their main goal and to point out their mistakes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Quite true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
STRANGER: They act on no true principle at all; they seek their ease and receive with open arms those who are like themselves, and hate those who are unlike them, being too much influenced by feelings of dislike.
STRANGER: They don't follow any real principles; they look for comfort and welcome those who are similar to them, while resenting those who are different, letting their negative feelings drive their actions.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How so?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How's that?
STRANGER: The quiet orderly class seek for natures like their own, and as far as they can they marry and give in marriage exclusively in this class, and the courageous do the same; they seek natures like their own, whereas they should both do precisely the opposite.
STRANGER: The calm, organized class looks for people like themselves, and as much as possible, they marry and arrange marriages only within this class. The brave do the same; they seek people who are like them, when in reality they should be doing the exact opposite.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How and why is that?
YOUNG SOCRATES: How come and why is that?
STRANGER: Because courage, when untempered by the gentler nature during many generations, may at first bloom and strengthen, but at last bursts forth into downright madness.
STRANGER: Because courage, when not balanced by gentler qualities over many generations, may initially flourish and grow stronger, but eventually erupts into complete madness.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Like enough.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Sounds about right.
STRANGER: And then, again, the soul which is over-full of modesty and has no element of courage in many successive generations, is apt to grow too indolent, and at last to become utterly paralyzed and useless.
STRANGER: And then, again, a soul that is overly modest and lacks any trace of courage over many generations can end up being too lazy and eventually become completely paralyzed and useless.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That, again, is quite likely.
YOUNG SOCRATES: That seems very likely.
STRANGER: It was of these bonds I said that there would be no difficulty in creating them, if only both classes originally held the same opinion about the honourable and good;—indeed, in this single work, the whole process of royal weaving is comprised—never to allow temperate natures to be separated from the brave, but to weave them together, like the warp and the woof, by common sentiments and honours and reputation, and by the giving of pledges to one another; and out of them forming one smooth and even web, to entrust to them the offices of State.
STRANGER: I was saying that it wouldn’t be hard to create these connections if both groups initially shared the same views on what is honorable and good. In fact, this whole idea encapsulates the entire process of royal weaving—never allowing those with steady temperaments to be separated from the courageous, but intertwining them like the warp and weft, through shared feelings, honors, and reputations, as well as mutual commitments; and from them, creating one smooth and unified fabric to assign the responsibilities of leadership.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
STRANGER: Where one officer only is needed, you must choose a ruler who has both these qualities—when many, you must mingle some of each, for the temperate ruler is very careful and just and safe, but is wanting in thoroughness and go.
STRANGER: When you only need one officer, you should pick a leader who has both qualities—when you need many, you should mix some of each, because a temperate leader is very careful, just, and safe, but may lack thoroughness and drive.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly, that is very true.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Absolutely, that's spot on.
STRANGER: The character of the courageous, on the other hand, falls short of the former in justice and caution, but has the power of action in a remarkable degree, and where either of these two qualities is wanting, there cities cannot altogether prosper either in their public or private life.
STRANGER: The nature of the courageous person, on the other hand, lacks some of the justice and caution found in the former, but possesses a remarkable ability to take action. Where either of these qualities is missing, cities cannot truly thrive in either their public or private life.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly they cannot.
YOUNG SOCRATES: They definitely can't.
STRANGER: This then we declare to be the completion of the web of political action, which is created by a direct intertexture of the brave and temperate natures, whenever the royal science has drawn the two minds into communion with one another by unanimity and friendship, and having perfected the noblest and best of all the webs which political life admits, and enfolding therein all other inhabitants of cities, whether slaves or freemen, binds them in one fabric and governs and presides over them, and, in so far as to be happy is vouchsafed to a city, in no particular fails to secure their happiness.
STRANGER: We declare this to be the culmination of political action, formed by a direct connection between brave and balanced individuals, whenever the royal science brings their minds together in agreement and friendship. It creates the strongest and best framework that political life allows, encompassing all other city dwellers, whether they are slaves or free, uniting them in one community, governing them, and ensuring, to the extent that a city can be happy, that their happiness is not overlooked in any way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Your picture, Stranger, of the king and statesman, no less than of the Sophist, is quite perfect.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Your depiction, Stranger, of the king and politician, as well as of the Sophist, is absolutely spot on.
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