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PHILEBUS
By Plato
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
Contents
INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
The Philebus appears to be one of the later writings of Plato, in which the style has begun to alter, and the dramatic and poetical element has become subordinate to the speculative and philosophical. In the development of abstract thought great advances have been made on the Protagoras or the Phaedrus, and even on the Republic. But there is a corresponding diminution of artistic skill, a want of character in the persons, a laboured march in the dialogue, and a degree of confusion and incompleteness in the general design. As in the speeches of Thucydides, the multiplication of ideas seems to interfere with the power of expression. Instead of the equally diffused grace and ease of the earlier dialogues there occur two or three highly-wrought passages; instead of the ever-flowing play of humour, now appearing, now concealed, but always present, are inserted a good many bad jests, as we may venture to term them. We may observe an attempt at artificial ornament, and far-fetched modes of expression; also clamorous demands on the part of his companions, that Socrates shall answer his own questions, as well as other defects of style, which remind us of the Laws. The connection is often abrupt and inharmonious, and far from clear. Many points require further explanation; e.g. the reference of pleasure to the indefinite class, compared with the assertion which almost immediately follows, that pleasure and pain naturally have their seat in the third or mixed class: these two statements are unreconciled. In like manner, the table of goods does not distinguish between the two heads of measure and symmetry; and though a hint is given that the divine mind has the first place, nothing is said of this in the final summing up. The relation of the goods to the sciences does not appear; though dialectic may be thought to correspond to the highest good, the sciences and arts and true opinions are enumerated in the fourth class. We seem to have an intimation of a further discussion, in which some topics lightly passed over were to receive a fuller consideration. The various uses of the word 'mixed,' for the mixed life, the mixed class of elements, the mixture of pleasures, or of pleasure and pain, are a further source of perplexity. Our ignorance of the opinions which Plato is attacking is also an element of obscurity. Many things in a controversy might seem relevant, if we knew to what they were intended to refer. But no conjecture will enable us to supply what Plato has not told us; or to explain, from our fragmentary knowledge of them, the relation in which his doctrine stood to the Eleatic Being or the Megarian good, or to the theories of Aristippus or Antisthenes respecting pleasure. Nor are we able to say how far Plato in the Philebus conceives the finite and infinite (which occur both in the fragments of Philolaus and in the Pythagorean table of opposites) in the same manner as contemporary Pythagoreans.
The Philebus seems to be one of Plato's later works, where the style has started to change, and the dramatic and poetic elements have taken a backseat to speculative and philosophical ideas. There have been significant strides in abstract thinking compared to the Protagoras, the Phaedrus, and even the Republic. However, this comes with a drop in artistic skill, a lack of distinct characters, a clunky pace in the dialogue, and some confusion and incompleteness in the overall design. Similar to Thucydides' speeches, the abundance of ideas seems to hinder clarity of expression. Instead of the smooth grace and ease found in earlier dialogues, there are now a few elaborate passages; the playful humor that used to appear effortlessly has been replaced with several poor jokes, which we might call them. There's an attempt at ornate language and convoluted expressions; plus, there are loud demands from his peers for Socrates to answer his own questions, along with other stylistic flaws reminiscent of the Laws. The connections between ideas are often abrupt and jarring, and not very clear. Many points need more clarity; for instance, the reference to pleasure as part of an indefinite class conflicts with the claim that pleasure and pain naturally belong in the third or mixed class. These two ideas don't reconcile. Similarly, the list of goods fails to differentiate between the two categories of measure and symmetry; even though it hints that the divine mind is paramount, it doesn’t elaborate on this in the conclusion. The relationship between goods and the sciences isn’t clear; while dialectic might be thought to relate to the highest good, sciences and arts and true opinions are categorized in the fourth group. It seems to suggest a further discussion, where topics that were only lightly touched upon would be explored in greater depth. The various usages of the term "mixed"—referring to the mixed life, the mixed class of elements, or the combination of pleasures, or pleasure and pain—add to the confusion. Our lack of knowledge about the views Plato is critiquing also adds to the fog. Many things in a debate could seem relevant if we knew what they were referring to. However, no speculation can fill the gaps that Plato hasn't clarified; nor can we explain, based on our limited understanding, how his ideas relate to the Eleatic Being, the Megarian good, or the theories of Aristippus or Antisthenes regarding pleasure. We also can’t determine how much Plato in the Philebus views the finite and infinite (discussed in both Philolaus' fragments and the Pythagorean table of opposites) in the same way as his contemporary Pythagoreans.
There is little in the characters which is worthy of remark. The Socrates of the Philebus is devoid of any touch of Socratic irony, though here, as in the Phaedrus, he twice attributes the flow of his ideas to a sudden inspiration. The interlocutor Protarchus, the son of Callias, who has been a hearer of Gorgias, is supposed to begin as a disciple of the partisans of pleasure, but is drawn over to the opposite side by the arguments of Socrates. The instincts of ingenuous youth are easily induced to take the better part. Philebus, who has withdrawn from the argument, is several times brought back again, that he may support pleasure, of which he remains to the end the uncompromising advocate. On the other hand, the youthful group of listeners by whom he is surrounded, 'Philebus' boys' as they are termed, whose presence is several times intimated, are described as all of them at last convinced by the arguments of Socrates. They bear a very faded resemblance to the interested audiences of the Charmides, Lysis, or Protagoras. Other signs of relation to external life in the dialogue, or references to contemporary things and persons, with the single exception of the allusions to the anonymous enemies of pleasure, and the teachers of the flux, there are none.
There's not much about the characters that's noteworthy. The Socrates in the Philebus lacks any hint of Socratic irony, although, like in the Phaedrus, he credits his sudden flow of ideas to inspiration on two occasions. The character Protarchus, the son of Callias and an audience member of Gorgias, initially comes across as a follower of the pleasure-seeking crowd but is swayed to the other side by Socrates' arguments. The natural inclinations of youthful innocence can easily lean toward the better choice. Philebus, who steps back from the discussion, is repeatedly pulled back in to defend pleasure, which he ardently supports until the end. In contrast, the group of young listeners surrounding him, referred to as 'Philebus' boys,' are mentioned multiple times and are ultimately convinced by Socrates' arguments. They bear a very faint resemblance to the interested crowds in Charmides, Lysis, or Protagoras. Aside from some vague references to contemporary issues and the anonymous opponents of pleasure and teachers of the flux, there are no other signs linking the dialogue to real life.
The omission of the doctrine of recollection, derived from a previous state of existence, is a note of progress in the philosophy of Plato. The transcendental theory of pre-existent ideas, which is chiefly discussed by him in the Meno, the Phaedo, and the Phaedrus, has given way to a psychological one. The omission is rendered more significant by his having occasion to speak of memory as the basis of desire. Of the ideas he treats in the same sceptical spirit which appears in his criticism of them in the Parmenides. He touches on the same difficulties and he gives no answer to them. His mode of speaking of the analytical and synthetical processes may be compared with his discussion of the same subject in the Phaedrus; here he dwells on the importance of dividing the genera into all the species, while in the Phaedrus he conveys the same truth in a figure, when he speaks of carving the whole, which is described under the image of a victim, into parts or members, 'according to their natural articulation, without breaking any of them.' There is also a difference, which may be noted, between the two dialogues. For whereas in the Phaedrus, and also in the Symposium, the dialectician is described as a sort of enthusiast or lover, in the Philebus, as in all the later writings of Plato, the element of love is wanting; the topic is only introduced, as in the Republic, by way of illustration. On other subjects of which they treat in common, such as the nature and kinds of pleasure, true and false opinion, the nature of the good, the order and relation of the sciences, the Republic is less advanced than the Philebus, which contains, perhaps, more metaphysical truth more obscurely expressed than any other Platonic dialogue. Here, as Plato expressly tells us, he is 'forging weapons of another make,' i.e. new categories and modes of conception, though 'some of the old ones might do again.'
The exclusion of the idea of recollection, stemming from a past existence, signals a shift in Plato's philosophy. His previously dominant theory of pre-existing ideas, mainly discussed in the Meno, the Phaedo, and the Phaedrus, is now replaced with a psychological approach. This shift is highlighted by his references to memory as the foundation of desire. He approaches the ideas with the same skeptical outlook he shows in his critiques from the Parmenides, addressing similar challenges without providing solutions. His way of talking about analytical and synthetic processes can be compared to his thoughts on the same topic in the Phaedrus, where he emphasizes the importance of breaking down categories into all their species. In the Phaedrus, he illustrates this concept by describing the process of carving a whole, visualized as a victim, into parts in a way that respects their natural structure, without damaging any of them. There's also a notable difference between the two dialogues: in the Phaedrus and Symposium, the dialectician is characterized as somewhat passionate or enamored, whereas in the Philebus, and in all of Plato's later writings, the element of love is absent; it is merely referenced, as in the Republic, for illustration. Regarding other shared topics like the nature and types of pleasure, true and false opinion, the essence of the good, and the hierarchy of the sciences, the Republic is less developed than the Philebus, which perhaps contains more metaphysical insights expressed more ambiguously than any other Platonic dialogue. Here, as Plato specifically mentions, he is 'forging weapons of another kind,' meaning creating new categories and ways of thinking, although 'some of the old ones might still work.'
But if superior in thought and dialectical power, the Philebus falls very far short of the Republic in fancy and feeling. The development of the reason undisturbed by the emotions seems to be the ideal at which Plato aims in his later dialogues. There is no mystic enthusiasm or rapturous contemplation of ideas. Whether we attribute this change to the greater feebleness of age, or to the development of the quarrel between philosophy and poetry in Plato's own mind, or perhaps, in some degree, to a carelessness about artistic effect, when he was absorbed in abstract ideas, we can hardly be wrong in assuming, amid such a variety of indications, derived from style as well as subject, that the Philebus belongs to the later period of his life and authorship. But in this, as in all the later writings of Plato, there are not wanting thoughts and expressions in which he rises to his highest level.
But while it excels in thought and argumentation, the Philebus falls significantly short of the Republic in creativity and emotion. The ideal that Plato seems to strive for in his later dialogues is the development of reason without the influence of emotions. There is no mystical enthusiasm or ecstatic contemplation of ideas. Whether we attribute this shift to the diminishing vigor of age, to the growing conflict between philosophy and poetry in Plato's own thoughts, or perhaps a lack of concern for artistic effect when he was focused on abstract ideas, we can reasonably conclude, based on various clues from both style and content, that the Philebus is from the later part of his life and career. However, in this work, as in all of Plato's later writings, there are still thoughts and expressions where he reaches his highest level.
The plan is complicated, or rather, perhaps, the want of plan renders the progress of the dialogue difficult to follow. A few leading ideas seem to emerge: the relation of the one and many, the four original elements, the kinds of pleasure, the kinds of knowledge, the scale of goods. These are only partially connected with one another. The dialogue is not rightly entitled 'Concerning pleasure' or 'Concerning good,' but should rather be described as treating of the relations of pleasure and knowledge, after they have been duly analyzed, to the good. (1) The question is asked, whether pleasure or wisdom is the chief good, or some nature higher than either; and if the latter, how pleasure and wisdom are related to this higher good. (2) Before we can reply with exactness, we must know the kinds of pleasure and the kinds of knowledge. (3) But still we may affirm generally, that the combined life of pleasure and wisdom or knowledge has more of the character of the good than either of them when isolated. (4) to determine which of them partakes most of the higher nature, we must know under which of the four unities or elements they respectively fall. These are, first, the infinite; secondly, the finite; thirdly, the union of the two; fourthly, the cause of the union. Pleasure is of the first, wisdom or knowledge of the third class, while reason or mind is akin to the fourth or highest.
The plan is complex, or more accurately, the lack of a clear plan makes it hard to follow the flow of the dialogue. A few main ideas seem to come up: the relationship between the one and the many, the four original elements, different kinds of pleasure, different kinds of knowledge, and the hierarchy of goods. These concepts are only loosely connected. The dialogue isn't really titled 'On Pleasure' or 'On the Good'; it's better described as discussing the connections between pleasure and knowledge, once they've been thoroughly examined, in relation to the good. (1) The question posed is whether pleasure or wisdom is the highest good, or if there's a higher nature beyond both; and if there is, how pleasure and wisdom relate to this higher good. (2) Before we can answer precisely, we need to understand the kinds of pleasure and knowledge. (3) However, we can generally say that a life that combines pleasure and wisdom or knowledge is more aligned with the good than either one alone. (4) To determine which one aligns more closely with the higher nature, we need to understand which of the four unities or elements they fall under. These are: first, the infinite; second, the finite; third, the combination of the two; and fourth, the cause of that combination. Pleasure belongs to the first, wisdom or knowledge belongs to the third, while reason or mind is related to the fourth or highest.
(5) Pleasures are of two kinds, the mixed and unmixed. Of mixed pleasures there are three classes—(a) those in which both the pleasures and pains are corporeal, as in eating and hunger; (b) those in which there is a pain of the body and pleasure of the mind, as when you are hungry and are looking forward to a feast; (c) those in which the pleasure and pain are both mental. Of unmixed pleasures there are four kinds: those of sight, hearing, smell, knowledge.
(5) There are two types of pleasures: mixed and unmixed. Mixed pleasures can be divided into three categories—(a) those where both pleasure and pain are physical, like eating when you're hungry; (b) those where there’s physical pain and mental pleasure, like being hungry and anticipating a feast; (c) those where both pleasure and pain are mental. Unmixed pleasures fall into four categories: those of sight, hearing, smell, and knowledge.
(6) The sciences are likewise divided into two classes, theoretical and productive: of the latter, one part is pure, the other impure. The pure part consists of arithmetic, mensuration, and weighing. Arts like carpentering, which have an exact measure, are to be regarded as higher than music, which for the most part is mere guess-work. But there is also a higher arithmetic, and a higher mensuration, which is exclusively theoretical; and a dialectical science, which is higher still and the truest and purest knowledge.
(6) The sciences are also divided into two categories: theoretical and practical. The practical sciences can be split into pure and impure. The pure ones include arithmetic, measurement, and weighing. Crafts like carpentry, which have precise measurements, are considered superior to music, which is mostly based on intuition. However, there is also a more advanced form of arithmetic and measurement that is purely theoretical, as well as a dialectical science, which is even more advanced and represents the truest and purest form of knowledge.
(7) We are now able to determine the composition of the perfect life. First, we admit the pure pleasures and the pure sciences; secondly, the impure sciences, but not the impure pleasures. We have next to discover what element of goodness is contained in this mixture. There are three criteria of goodness—beauty, symmetry, truth. These are clearly more akin to reason than to pleasure, and will enable us to fix the places of both of them in the scale of good. First in the scale is measure; the second place is assigned to symmetry; the third, to reason and wisdom; the fourth, to knowledge and true opinion; the fifth, to pure pleasures; and here the Muse says 'Enough.'
(7) We can now figure out what makes up the perfect life. First, we accept pure pleasures and pure sciences; second, we allow impure sciences, but not impure pleasures. Next, we need to find out what element of goodness is in this mix. There are three standards of goodness—beauty, symmetry, and truth. These are definitely closer to reason than to pleasure and will help us rank both of them in the hierarchy of good. At the top of the scale is measure; the second spot goes to symmetry; the third is for reason and wisdom; the fourth is for knowledge and true opinion; the fifth is for pure pleasures; and here the Muse says 'That's enough.'
'Bidding farewell to Philebus and Socrates,' we may now consider the metaphysical conceptions which are presented to us. These are (I) the paradox of unity and plurality; (II) the table of categories or elements; (III) the kinds of pleasure; (IV) the kinds of knowledge; (V) the conception of the good. We may then proceed to examine (VI) the relation of the Philebus to the Republic, and to other dialogues.
'Bidding farewell to Philebus and Socrates,' we can now look at the metaphysical ideas that have been presented to us. These include (I) the paradox of unity and plurality; (II) the table of categories or elements; (III) the types of pleasure; (IV) the types of knowledge; (V) the idea of the good. We can then move on to explore (VI) the connection of the Philebus to the Republic and other dialogues.
I. The paradox of the one and many originated in the restless dialectic of Zeno, who sought to prove the absolute existence of the one by showing the contradictions that are involved in admitting the existence of the many (compare Parm.). Zeno illustrated the contradiction by well-known examples taken from outward objects. But Socrates seems to intimate that the time had arrived for discarding these hackneyed illustrations; such difficulties had long been solved by common sense ('solvitur ambulando'); the fact of the co-existence of opposites was a sufficient answer to them. He will leave them to Cynics and Eristics; the youth of Athens may discourse of them to their parents. To no rational man could the circumstance that the body is one, but has many members, be any longer a stumbling-block.
I. The paradox of the one and many came from the ongoing debate of Zeno, who tried to prove the absolute existence of the one by showing the contradictions involved in accepting the existence of the many (see Parm.). Zeno used familiar examples from the world around us to illustrate this contradiction. However, Socrates seems to suggest that it was time to move on from these overused examples; these issues had long been resolved by common sense ('solvitur ambulando'); the fact that opposites can coexist was a sufficient answer. He would leave these discussions to the Cynics and Eristics; the young people of Athens could talk about them with their parents. For no rational person should find it confusing that the body is one but has many parts.
Plato's difficulty seems to begin in the region of ideas. He cannot understand how an absolute unity, such as the Eleatic Being, can be broken up into a number of individuals, or be in and out of them at once. Philosophy had so deepened or intensified the nature of one or Being, by the thoughts of successive generations, that the mind could no longer imagine 'Being' as in a state of change or division. To say that the verb of existence is the copula, or that unity is a mere unit, is to us easy; but to the Greek in a particular stage of thought such an analysis involved the same kind of difficulty as the conception of God existing both in and out of the world would to ourselves. Nor was he assisted by the analogy of sensible objects. The sphere of mind was dark and mysterious to him; but instead of being illustrated by sense, the greatest light appeared to be thrown on the nature of ideas when they were contrasted with sense.
Plato's issue seems to start with ideas. He struggles to grasp how an absolute unity, like the Eleatic Being, can be divided into multiple individuals or exist in and outside of them at the same time. Philosophy had deepened the concept of one or Being through the thoughts of many generations, to the point where the mind could no longer picture 'Being' as something that could change or be divided. Saying that the verb of existence is the copula, or that unity is simply a unit, is straightforward for us; but for a Greek in a certain stage of thought, this kind of analysis posed the same challenge as imagining God existing both within and outside of the world does for us today. He also didn't find help in the analogy of tangible objects. The realm of the mind was unclear and mysterious to him; rather than being clarified by sensory perception, the nature of ideas seemed to be better understood when contrasted with sense.
Both here and in the Parmenides, where similar difficulties are raised, Plato seems prepared to desert his ancient ground. He cannot tell the relation in which abstract ideas stand to one another, and therefore he transfers the one and many out of his transcendental world, and proceeds to lay down practical rules for their application to different branches of knowledge. As in the Republic he supposes the philosopher to proceed by regular steps, until he arrives at the idea of good; as in the Sophist and Politicus he insists that in dividing the whole into its parts we should bisect in the middle in the hope of finding species; as in the Phaedrus (see above) he would have 'no limb broken' of the organism of knowledge;—so in the Philebus he urges the necessity of filling up all the intermediate links which occur (compare Bacon's 'media axiomata') in the passage from unity to infinity. With him the idea of science may be said to anticipate science; at a time when the sciences were not yet divided, he wants to impress upon us the importance of classification; neither neglecting the many individuals, nor attempting to count them all, but finding the genera and species under which they naturally fall. Here, then, and in the parallel passages of the Phaedrus and of the Sophist, is found the germ of the most fruitful notion of modern science.
Both here and in the Parmenides, where similar issues arise, Plato seems willing to abandon his traditional beliefs. He struggles to explain how abstract ideas relate to each other, so he moves the concepts of one and many away from his transcendental world and starts establishing practical rules for their application in different fields of knowledge. Just as in the Republic he imagines the philosopher following a systematic approach until reaching the concept of good; as in the Sophist and Politicus he insists we should divide the whole into parts by bisecting in the middle to discover species; and as in the Phaedrus (see above) he wants 'no limb broken' from the organism of knowledge—so in the Philebus he emphasizes the need to fill in all the intermediate links that appear (compare Bacon's 'media axiomata') between unity and infinity. For him, the idea of science can be said to lead science; at a time when the sciences were not yet distinct, he aims to highlight the significance of classification, neither ignoring the many individuals nor trying to count them all, but identifying the genera and species under which they naturally fall. Here, then, and in the similar passages of the Phaedrus and the Sophist, we find the seed of the most productive concept of modern science.
Plato describes with ludicrous exaggeration the influence exerted by the one and many on the minds of young men in their first fervour of metaphysical enthusiasm (compare Republic). But they are none the less an everlasting quality of reason or reasoning which never grows old in us. At first we have but a confused conception of them, analogous to the eyes blinking at the light in the Republic. To this Plato opposes the revelation from Heaven of the real relations of them, which some Prometheus, who gave the true fire from heaven, is supposed to have imparted to us. Plato is speaking of two things—(1) the crude notion of the one and many, which powerfully affects the ordinary mind when first beginning to think; (2) the same notion when cleared up by the help of dialectic.
Plato humorously exaggerates the impact that the concept of the one and the many has on young men's minds when they first get excited about metaphysics (see Republic). However, these concepts remain a timeless aspect of reasoning that never fades away. Initially, we only have a vague understanding of them, similar to how eyes struggle to adjust to light in the Republic. Plato counters this with the idea that a revelation from Heaven shows us the actual relationships between these concepts, supposedly given to us by some Prometheus who brought the true fire from above. Plato is discussing two things—(1) the basic idea of the one and the many, which strongly influences the average person when they first start to think; (2) the same idea once it is clarified through dialectic.
To us the problem of the one and many has lost its chief interest and perplexity. We readily acknowledge that a whole has many parts, that the continuous is also the divisible, that in all objects of sense there is a one and many, and that a like principle may be applied to analogy to purely intellectual conceptions. If we attend to the meaning of the words, we are compelled to admit that two contradictory statements are true. But the antinomy is so familiar as to be scarcely observed by us. Our sense of the contradiction, like Plato's, only begins in a higher sphere, when we speak of necessity and free-will, of mind and body, of Three Persons and One Substance, and the like. The world of knowledge is always dividing more and more; every truth is at first the enemy of every other truth. Yet without this division there can be no truth; nor any complete truth without the reunion of the parts into a whole. And hence the coexistence of opposites in the unity of the idea is regarded by Hegel as the supreme principle of philosophy; and the law of contradiction, which is affirmed by logicians to be an ultimate principle of the human mind, is displaced by another law, which asserts the coexistence of contradictories as imperfect and divided elements of the truth. Without entering further into the depths of Hegelianism, we may remark that this and all similar attempts to reconcile antinomies have their origin in the old Platonic problem of the 'One and Many.'
To us, the issue of the one and the many has lost its main interest and confusion. We easily accept that a whole consists of many parts, that the continuous is also divisible, that in all sensory objects there is a one and many, and that a similar principle can be applied to analogy in purely intellectual concepts. When we think about the meaning of the words, we have to agree that two contradictory statements can both be true. However, this contradiction is so familiar that we hardly notice it. Our awareness of the contradiction, like Plato's, only arises in a higher context, when we discuss necessity and free will, mind and body, Three Persons and One Substance, and similar topics. The world of knowledge keeps dividing more and more; every truth initially opposes every other truth. Yet without this division, there can be no truth; nor can there be any complete truth without bringing the parts back together into a whole. Therefore, Hegel considers the coexistence of opposites within the unity of an idea as the highest principle of philosophy; and the law of contradiction, which logicians claim is an ultimate principle of the human mind, is replaced by another law that asserts the coexistence of contradictions as imperfect and divided elements of the truth. Without delving deeper into Hegelianism, we can note that this and all similar efforts to reconcile antinomies have their roots in the old Platonic problem of the 'One and Many.'
II. 1. The first of Plato's categories or elements is the infinite. This is the negative of measure or limit; the unthinkable, the unknowable; of which nothing can be affirmed; the mixture or chaos which preceded distinct kinds in the creation of the world; the first vague impression of sense; the more or less which refuses to be reduced to rule, having certain affinities with evil, with pleasure, with ignorance, and which in the scale of being is farthest removed from the beautiful and good. To a Greek of the age of Plato, the idea of an infinite mind would have been an absurdity. He would have insisted that 'the good is of the nature of the finite,' and that the infinite is a mere negative, which is on the level of sensation, and not of thought. He was aware that there was a distinction between the infinitely great and the infinitely small, but he would have equally denied the claim of either to true existence. Of that positive infinity, or infinite reality, which we attribute to God, he had no conception.
II. 1. The first of Plato's categories or elements is the infinite. This is the opposite of measure or limit; it's unthinkable, unknowable; nothing can be confirmed about it; the mixture or chaos that existed before distinct kinds in the creation of the world; the initial vague impression of sense; the more or less that resists being defined by rules, having certain connections with evil, pleasure, and ignorance, and which, in the hierarchy of existence, is farthest from the beautiful and good. For a Greek in Plato's time, the idea of an infinite mind would have seemed absurd. He would have argued that 'the good is inherently finite,' and that the infinite is just a negative idea, existing at the level of sensation rather than thought. He recognized there was a difference between the infinitely great and the infinitely small, but he would have equally rejected the idea that either truly exists. He had no concept of that positive infinity, or infinite reality, which we attribute to God.
The Greek conception of the infinite would be more truly described, in our way of speaking, as the indefinite. To us, the notion of infinity is subsequent rather than prior to the finite, expressing not absolute vacancy or negation, but only the removal of limit or restraint, which we suppose to exist not before but after we have already set bounds to thought and matter, and divided them after their kinds. From different points of view, either the finite or infinite may be looked upon respectively both as positive and negative (compare 'Omnis determinatio est negatio')' and the conception of the one determines that of the other. The Greeks and the moderns seem to be nearly at the opposite poles in their manner of regarding them. And both are surprised when they make the discovery, as Plato has done in the Sophist, how large an element negation forms in the framework of their thoughts.
The Greek idea of the infinite is more accurately described, in our terms, as the indefinite. For us, the concept of infinity comes after the finite; it represents not complete emptiness or denial, but simply the absence of limits or constraints, which we believe exist not before but after we have already established boundaries for thought and matter, and categorized them accordingly. From various perspectives, both the finite and infinite can be seen as either positive or negative (see 'Omnis determinatio est negatio'), and the understanding of one influences the understanding of the other. The Greeks and modern thinkers appear to be on almost opposite ends of the spectrum in how they perceive these concepts. Both seem astonished when they realize, as Plato noted in the Sophist, how significant a role negation plays in shaping their ideas.
2, 3. The finite element which mingles with and regulates the infinite is best expressed to us by the word 'law.' It is that which measures all things and assigns to them their limit; which preserves them in their natural state, and brings them within the sphere of human cognition. This is described by the terms harmony, health, order, perfection, and the like. All things, in as far as they are good, even pleasures, which are for the most part indefinite, partake of this element. We should be wrong in attributing to Plato the conception of laws of nature derived from observation and experiment. And yet he has as intense a conviction as any modern philosopher that nature does not proceed by chance. But observing that the wonderful construction of number and figure, which he had within himself, and which seemed to be prior to himself, explained a part of the phenomena of the external world, he extended their principles to the whole, finding in them the true type both of human life and of the order of nature.
2, 3. The finite element that interacts with and regulates the infinite is best captured by the word 'law.' It measures everything and assigns limits to them; it preserves them in their natural state and makes them understandable to humans. This is described by terms like harmony, health, order, perfection, and similar concepts. All things, to the extent that they are good—even pleasures, which are mostly unclear—share this element. We would be mistaken to attribute to Plato the idea of natural laws based on observation and experimentation. Still, he fiercely believed, like any modern philosopher, that nature does not operate by chance. By observing the incredible structure of numbers and shapes that he held within himself, which seemed to exist prior to him, he explained part of the phenomena of the outside world and applied their principles to everything, discovering in them the true model of both human life and the order of nature.
Two other points may be noticed respecting the third class. First, that Plato seems to be unconscious of any interval or chasm which separates the finite from the infinite. The one is in various ways and degrees working in the other. Hence he has implicitly answered the difficulty with which he started, of how the one could remain one and yet be divided among many individuals, or 'how ideas could be in and out of themselves,' and the like. Secondly, that in this mixed class we find the idea of beauty. Good, when exhibited under the aspect of measure or symmetry, becomes beauty. And if we translate his language into corresponding modern terms, we shall not be far wrong in saying that here, as well as in the Republic, Plato conceives beauty under the idea of proportion.
Two other points can be noted about the third class. First, Plato seems unaware of any gap that separates the finite from the infinite. The two are interacting in various ways and degrees. Thus, he has implicitly addressed the problem he originally posed regarding how the one can remain one while also being divided among many individuals, or 'how ideas can be both in and of themselves,' and similar issues. Secondly, within this mixed class, we encounter the idea of beauty. Goodness, when presented in terms of measure or symmetry, becomes beauty. If we translate his language into modern terms, it wouldn't be wrong to say that here, as in the Republic, Plato views beauty through the concept of proportion.
4. Last and highest in the list of principles or elements is the cause of the union of the finite and infinite, to which Plato ascribes the order of the world. Reasoning from man to the universe, he argues that as there is a mind in the one, there must be a mind in the other, which he identifies with the royal mind of Zeus. This is the first cause of which 'our ancestors spoke,' as he says, appealing to tradition, in the Philebus as well as in the Timaeus. The 'one and many' is also supposed to have been revealed by tradition. For the mythical element has not altogether disappeared.
4. Last and the highest on the list of principles or elements is the reason for the connection between the finite and the infinite, which Plato attributes to the order of the world. He reasons from humans to the universe, arguing that because there is a mind in one, there must also be a mind in the other, which he associates with the royal mind of Zeus. This is the first cause that 'our ancestors spoke of,' as he mentions, drawing on tradition in both the Philebus and the Timaeus. The 'one and many' is also believed to have been revealed through tradition. The mythical element hasn’t completely vanished.
Some characteristic differences may here be noted, which distinguish the ancient from the modern mode of conceiving God.
Some notable differences can be observed here that distinguish how ancient people and modern thinkers conceive of God.
a. To Plato, the idea of God or mind is both personal and impersonal. Nor in ascribing, as appears to us, both these attributes to him, and in speaking of God both in the masculine and neuter gender, did he seem to himself inconsistent. For the difference between the personal and impersonal was not marked to him as to ourselves. We make a fundamental distinction between a thing and a person, while to Plato, by the help of various intermediate abstractions, such as end, good, cause, they appear almost to meet in one, or to be two aspects of the same. Hence, without any reconciliation or even remark, in the Republic he speaks at one time of God or Gods, and at another time of the Good. So in the Phaedrus he seems to pass unconsciously from the concrete to the abstract conception of the Ideas in the same dialogue. Nor in the Philebus is he careful to show in what relation the idea of the divine mind stands to the supreme principle of measure.
a. To Plato, the concept of God or mind is both personal and impersonal. When he attributes both of these characteristics to God and refers to God using both masculine and neutral terms, he doesn't seem inconsistent. The distinction between the personal and impersonal isn't as clear to him as it is to us. We make a clear difference between a thing and a person, whereas Plato, through various abstract ideas like purpose, goodness, and cause, sees them as almost merging into one or as two sides of the same coin. Therefore, without reconciling or even noting it, in the Republic, he sometimes talks about God or gods and other times about the Good. Similarly, in the Phaedrus, he seems to shift unconsciously between the concrete and abstract ideas within the same dialogue. In the Philebus, he also doesn't take care to clarify how the concept of the divine mind relates to the ultimate principle of measure.
b. Again, to us there is a strongly-marked distinction between a first cause and a final cause. And we should commonly identify a first cause with God, and the final cause with the world, which is His work. But Plato, though not a Pantheist, and very far from confounding God with the world, tends to identify the first with the final cause. The cause of the union of the finite and infinite might be described as a higher law; the final measure which is the highest expression of the good may also be described as the supreme law. Both these conceptions are realized chiefly by the help of the material world; and therefore when we pass into the sphere of ideas can hardly be distinguished.
b. Once again, we see a clear distinction between a first cause and a final cause. We usually identify the first cause with God and the final cause with the world, which is His creation. However, Plato, while not a Pantheist and definitely not confusing God with the world, tends to link the first cause to the final cause. The reason for the connection between the finite and infinite could be seen as a higher law; the ultimate measure, which represents the highest idea of good, can also be seen as the supreme law. Both of these ideas are mainly understood through the material world, so when we move into the realm of ideas, they can be quite difficult to separate.
The four principles are required for the determination of the relative places of pleasure and wisdom. Plato has been saying that we should proceed by regular steps from the one to the many. Accordingly, before assigning the precedence either to good or pleasure, he must first find out and arrange in order the general principles of things. Mind is ascertained to be akin to the nature of the cause, while pleasure is found in the infinite or indefinite class. We may now proceed to divide pleasure and knowledge after their kinds.
The four principles are necessary for determining the relative positions of pleasure and wisdom. Plato has suggested that we should move step by step from the one to the many. So, before giving priority to either good or pleasure, he must first identify and organize the fundamental principles of things. The mind is recognized as similar to the nature of the cause, while pleasure is identified within the infinite or indefinite category. We can now go ahead and categorize pleasure and knowledge by their types.
III. 1. Plato speaks of pleasure as indefinite, as relative, as a generation, and in all these points of view as in a category distinct from good. For again we must repeat, that to the Greek 'the good is of the nature of the finite,' and, like virtue, either is, or is nearly allied to, knowledge. The modern philosopher would remark that the indefinite is equally real with the definite. Health and mental qualities are in the concrete undefined; they are nevertheless real goods, and Plato rightly regards them as falling under the finite class. Again, we are able to define objects or ideas, not in so far as they are in the mind, but in so far as they are manifested externally, and can therefore be reduced to rule and measure. And if we adopt the test of definiteness, the pleasures of the body are more capable of being defined than any other pleasures. As in art and knowledge generally, we proceed from without inwards, beginning with facts of sense, and passing to the more ideal conceptions of mental pleasure, happiness, and the like.
III. 1. Plato describes pleasure as indefinite, relative, and a process, viewing it as something separate from good. We must emphasize that, for the Greeks, 'the good is fundamentally finite,' and, like virtue, is either is or closely related to knowledge. A modern philosopher might note that the indefinite is just as real as the definite. Health and mental qualities, while concrete and undefined, are still real goods, and Plato correctly sees them as part of the finite category. Additionally, we can define objects or ideas not based on how they exist in the mind, but on how they are presented externally, allowing them to be measured and categorized. When we use the standard of definiteness, bodily pleasures are more easily defined than any other types of pleasure. In art and knowledge in general, we start from the outside and move inward, beginning with sensory facts and progressing to the more abstract notions of mental pleasure, happiness, and the like.
2. Pleasure is depreciated as relative, while good is exalted as absolute. But this distinction seems to arise from an unfair mode of regarding them; the abstract idea of the one is compared with the concrete experience of the other. For all pleasure and all knowledge may be viewed either abstracted from the mind, or in relation to the mind (compare Aristot. Nic. Ethics). The first is an idea only, which may be conceived as absolute and unchangeable, and then the abstract idea of pleasure will be equally unchangeable with that of knowledge. But when we come to view either as phenomena of consciousness, the same defects are for the most part incident to both of them. Our hold upon them is equally transient and uncertain; the mind cannot be always in a state of intellectual tension, any more than capable of feeling pleasure always. The knowledge which is at one time clear and distinct, at another seems to fade away, just as the pleasure of health after sickness, or of eating after hunger, soon passes into a neutral state of unconsciousness and indifference. Change and alternation are necessary for the mind as well as for the body; and in this is to be acknowledged, not an element of evil, but rather a law of nature. The chief difference between subjective pleasure and subjective knowledge in respect of permanence is that the latter, when our feeble faculties are able to grasp it, still conveys to us an idea of unchangeableness which cannot be got rid of.
2. Pleasure is thought of as relative, while good is seen as absolute. However, this distinction seems to come from an unfair way of looking at them; the abstract idea of one is compared to the concrete experience of the other. All pleasure and all knowledge can be viewed either separately from the mind or in relation to the mind (see Aristot. Nic. Ethics). The first is just an idea, which may be understood as absolute and unchangeable, making the abstract idea of pleasure equally constant as that of knowledge. But when we begin to see either as experiences of consciousness, the same issues mainly apply to both. Our connection to them is equally temporary and uncertain; the mind can’t always be in a state of intense thought, just like it can’t always feel pleasure. Knowledge that is clear and evident at one moment can seem to fade away at another, just like the pleasure of being healthy after being sick or the satisfaction of eating after being hungry, which soon turns into a neutral state of unawareness and indifference. Change and variety are essential for the mind as well as for the body, and this should not be seen as a negative aspect but rather as a natural law. The main difference between subjective pleasure and subjective knowledge regarding permanence is that the latter, when our limited abilities can grasp it, still gives us a sense of unchangeability that we can't shake off.
3. In the language of ancient philosophy, the relative character of pleasure is described as becoming or generation. This is relative to Being or Essence, and from one point of view may be regarded as the Heraclitean flux in contrast with the Eleatic Being; from another, as the transient enjoyment of eating and drinking compared with the supposed permanence of intellectual pleasures. But to us the distinction is unmeaning, and belongs to a stage of philosophy which has passed away. Plato himself seems to have suspected that the continuance or life of things is quite as much to be attributed to a principle of rest as of motion (compare Charm. Cratyl.). A later view of pleasure is found in Aristotle, who agrees with Plato in many points, e.g. in his view of pleasure as a restoration to nature, in his distinction between bodily and mental, between necessary and non-necessary pleasures. But he is also in advance of Plato; for he affirms that pleasure is not in the body at all; and hence not even the bodily pleasures are to be spoken of as generations, but only as accompanied by generation (Nic. Eth.).
3. In ancient philosophical terms, pleasure is described as a process of becoming or creation. This relates to Being or Essence; one could see it as the Heraclitean flow versus the Eleatic concept of Being, or as the fleeting joy of eating and drinking in contrast to the supposed permanence of intellectual pleasures. However, for us, this distinction feels irrelevant and belongs to a previous phase of philosophy. Plato himself seemed to suspect that the ongoing existence of things is attributed just as much to a principle of rest as it is to motion (see Charm. Cratyl.). Aristotle presents a later perspective on pleasure, sharing some views with Plato, such as seeing pleasure as a return to nature and differentiating between physical and mental pleasures, as well as between necessary and non-necessary pleasures. Nonetheless, he goes beyond Plato by asserting that pleasure doesn't reside in the body at all; therefore, even physical pleasures should not be considered as processes of generation, but rather as experiences alongside generation (Nic. Eth.).
4. Plato attempts to identify vicious pleasures with some form of error, and insists that the term false may be applied to them: in this he appears to be carrying out in a confused manner the Socratic doctrine, that virtue is knowledge, vice ignorance. He will allow of no distinction between the pleasures and the erroneous opinions on which they are founded, whether arising out of the illusion of distance or not. But to this we naturally reply with Protarchus, that the pleasure is what it is, although the calculation may be false, or the after-effects painful. It is difficult to acquit Plato, to use his own language, of being a 'tyro in dialectics,' when he overlooks such a distinction. Yet, on the other hand, we are hardly fair judges of confusions of thought in those who view things differently from ourselves.
4. Plato tries to link bad pleasures to some kind of mistake and argues that we can call them false: in this, he seems to be awkwardly following the Socratic idea that virtue is knowledge and vice is ignorance. He doesn’t make any distinction between the pleasures and the incorrect beliefs they’re based on, whether they come from an illusion of distance or not. But we naturally respond, like Protarchus, that the pleasure is what it is, even if the reasoning is wrong or the aftermath is painful. It’s hard to clear Plato of being a 'beginner in dialectics,' as he puts it, when he misses such a distinction. Yet, on the other hand, it’s not fair for us to judge those who think differently from us for their confusion.
5. There appears also to be an incorrectness in the notion which occurs both here and in the Gorgias, of the simultaneousness of merely bodily pleasures and pains. We may, perhaps, admit, though even this is not free from doubt, that the feeling of pleasureable hope or recollection is, or rather may be, simultaneous with acute bodily suffering. But there is no such coexistence of the pain of thirst with the pleasures of drinking; they are not really simultaneous, for the one expels the other. Nor does Plato seem to have considered that the bodily pleasures, except in certain extreme cases, are unattended with pain. Few philosophers will deny that a degree of pleasure attends eating and drinking; and yet surely we might as well speak of the pains of digestion which follow, as of the pains of hunger and thirst which precede them. Plato's conception is derived partly from the extreme case of a man suffering pain from hunger or thirst, partly from the image of a full and empty vessel. But the truth is rather, that while the gratification of our bodily desires constantly affords some degree of pleasure, the antecedent pains are scarcely perceived by us, being almost done away with by use and regularity.
5. There seems to be a flaw in the idea presented here and in the Gorgias about the simultaneous nature of purely physical pleasures and pains. We might accept, though this isn’t entirely certain, that the feeling of enjoyable anticipation or memory can occur at the same time as severe physical pain. However, thirst and the pleasure of drinking don’t coexist; they don’t happen at the same time, because one replaces the other. Additionally, Plato doesn’t appear to recognize that physical pleasures, except in extreme circumstances, usually come without pain. Few philosophers would argue that eating and drinking involve some degree of pleasure; yet we could just as easily mention the discomfort of digestion that follows, as well as the pain of hunger and thirst that comes before. Plato's view seems to come from the extreme scenario of someone suffering from hunger or thirst, combined with the idea of a full versus an empty container. In reality, while fulfilling our physical needs consistently provides some pleasure, the preceding pains are hardly noticed by us, as they are often eliminated through habit and regularity.
6. The desire to classify pleasures as accompanied or not accompanied by antecedent pains, has led Plato to place under one head the pleasures of smell and sight, as well as those derived from sounds of music and from knowledge. He would have done better to make a separate class of the pleasures of smell, having no association of mind, or perhaps to have divided them into natural and artificial. The pleasures of sight and sound might then have been regarded as being the expression of ideas. But this higher and truer point of view never appears to have occurred to Plato. Nor has he any distinction between the fine arts and the mechanical; and, neither here nor anywhere, an adequate conception of the beautiful in external things.
6. The desire to categorize pleasures as either linked to prior pains or not has led Plato to group the pleasures of smell and sight together with those from music and knowledge. He would have done better to create a separate category for the pleasures of smell, which are not connected to the mind, or perhaps to divide them into natural and artificial. The pleasures of sight and sound could then be seen as expressions of ideas. But this deeper and more accurate perspective doesn’t seem to have occurred to Plato. He also doesn’t differentiate between fine arts and mechanical ones, and he fails to provide an adequate understanding of beauty in external things, both here and in other contexts.
7. Plato agrees partially with certain 'surly or fastidious' philosophers, as he terms them, who defined pleasure to be the absence of pain. They are also described as eminent in physics. There is unfortunately no school of Greek philosophy known to us which combined these two characteristics. Antisthenes, who was an enemy of pleasure, was not a physical philosopher; the atomists, who were physical philosophers, were not enemies of pleasure. Yet such a combination of opinions is far from being impossible. Plato's omission to mention them by name has created the same uncertainty respecting them which also occurs respecting the 'friends of the ideas' and the 'materialists' in the Sophist.
7. Plato partially agrees with certain 'grumpy or picky' philosophers, as he calls them, who defined pleasure as the absence of pain. They are also noted for their work in physics. Unfortunately, there's no school of Greek philosophy known to us that combined these two traits. Antisthenes, who opposed pleasure, wasn't a philosopher of physics; the atomists, who were physical philosophers, didn't oppose pleasure. However, a combination of these views is certainly possible. Plato's failure to mention them by name has resulted in the same confusion about them that also arises in relation to the 'friends of the ideas' and the 'materialists' in the Sophist.
On the whole, this discussion is one of the least satisfactory in the dialogues of Plato. While the ethical nature of pleasure is scarcely considered, and the merely physical phenomenon imperfectly analysed, too much weight is given to ideas of measure and number, as the sole principle of good. The comparison of pleasure and knowledge is really a comparison of two elements, which have no common measure, and which cannot be excluded from each other. Feeling is not opposed to knowledge, and in all consciousness there is an element of both. The most abstract kinds of knowledge are inseparable from some pleasure or pain, which accompanies the acquisition or possession of them: the student is liable to grow weary of them, and soon discovers that continuous mental energy is not granted to men. The most sensual pleasure, on the other hand, is inseparable from the consciousness of pleasure; no man can be happy who, to borrow Plato's illustration, is leading the life of an oyster. Hence (by his own confession) the main thesis is not worth determining; the real interest lies in the incidental discussion. We can no more separate pleasure from knowledge in the Philebus than we can separate justice from happiness in the Republic.
Overall, this discussion is one of the least satisfying in Plato's dialogues. The ethical aspects of pleasure are barely touched upon, and the physical phenomenon is only analyzed partially, while too much importance is placed on concepts of measure and number as the only principle of good. The comparison of pleasure and knowledge is really a comparison of two elements that can't be measured against each other and can't be separated. Feeling isn't opposed to knowledge; every conscious experience includes both. The most abstract forms of knowledge are tied to some pleasure or pain that comes with gaining or having them: students often tire of them and soon realize that sustained mental energy is not something humans have in abundance. On the flip side, the most physical pleasure is linked with the awareness of that pleasure; no one can be truly happy, to use Plato's example, if they're living like an oyster. Thus, by his own admission, the main argument isn't worth determining; the real interest lies in the side discussion. We can't separate pleasure from knowledge in the Philebus any more than we can separate justice from happiness in the Republic.
IV. An interesting account is given in the Philebus of the rank and order of the sciences or arts, which agrees generally with the scheme of knowledge in the Sixth Book of the Republic. The chief difference is, that the position of the arts is more exactly defined. They are divided into an empirical part and a scientific part, of which the first is mere guess-work, the second is determined by rule and measure. Of the more empirical arts, music is given as an example; this, although affirmed to be necessary to human life, is depreciated. Music is regarded from a point of view entirely opposite to that of the Republic, not as a sublime science, coordinate with astronomy, but as full of doubt and conjecture. According to the standard of accuracy which is here adopted, it is rightly placed lower in the scale than carpentering, because the latter is more capable of being reduced to measure.
IV. The Philebus presents an interesting overview of the hierarchy and classification of sciences or arts, which generally aligns with the framework of knowledge outlined in the Sixth Book of the Republic. The main difference is that the arts are classified more precisely. They are split into an empirical section and a scientific section, where the first relies on guesswork, while the second is based on rules and measurements. Among the more empirical arts, music is cited as an example; although it's considered essential to human life, it's also looked down upon. Music is viewed from a perspective that contrasts sharply with that of the Republic, seen not as a noble science on par with astronomy, but rather as filled with uncertainty and speculation. Based on the level of accuracy established here, it is justifiably rated lower than carpentry, since carpentry can be measured more reliably.
The theoretical element of the arts may also become a purely abstract science, when separated from matter, and is then said to be pure and unmixed. The distinction which Plato here makes seems to be the same as that between pure and applied mathematics, and may be expressed in the modern formula—science is art theoretical, art is science practical. In the reason which he gives for the superiority of the pure science of number over the mixed or applied, we can only agree with him in part. He says that the numbers which the philosopher employs are always the same, whereas the numbers which are used in practice represent different sizes or quantities. He does not see that this power of expressing different quantities by the same symbol is the characteristic and not the defect of numbers, and is due to their abstract nature;—although we admit of course what Plato seems to feel in his distinctions between pure and impure knowledge, that the imperfection of matter enters into the applications of them.
The theoretical part of the arts can also become a purely abstract science when it's separated from physical aspects, and it’s then considered pure and undiluted. The distinction Plato makes seems to be similar to the difference between pure and applied mathematics and can be expressed in today’s terms—science is theoretical art, and art is practical science. While we can partially agree with his reasoning for the superiority of pure number science over applied science, he argues that the numbers philosophers use are always the same, while the numbers used in practice represent different sizes or quantities. He doesn’t realize that the ability to express various quantities with the same symbol is actually a strength and an essential feature of numbers, stemming from their abstract nature; however, we acknowledge, as Plato seems to suggest in his distinctions between pure and impure knowledge, that the imperfections of matter affect their applications.
Above the other sciences, as in the Republic, towers dialectic, which is the science of eternal Being, apprehended by the purest mind and reason. The lower sciences, including the mathematical, are akin to opinion rather than to reason, and are placed together in the fourth class of goods. The relation in which they stand to dialectic is obscure in the Republic, and is not cleared up in the Philebus.
Above all other sciences, as in the Republic, stands dialectic, which is the study of eternal Being, understood by the most lucid mind and reason. The lower sciences, including mathematics, are more related to opinion than to reason and are grouped in the fourth class of goods. The connection they have with dialectic is unclear in the Republic and isn’t clarified in the Philebus.
V. Thus far we have only attained to the vestibule or ante-chamber of the good; for there is a good exceeding knowledge, exceeding essence, which, like Glaucon in the Republic, we find a difficulty in apprehending. This good is now to be exhibited to us under various aspects and gradations. The relative dignity of pleasure and knowledge has been determined; but they have not yet received their exact position in the scale of goods. Some difficulties occur to us in the enumeration: First, how are we to distinguish the first from the second class of goods, or the second from the third? Secondly, why is there no mention of the supreme mind? Thirdly, the nature of the fourth class. Fourthly, the meaning of the allusion to a sixth class, which is not further investigated.
V. So far, we've only reached the entrance or waiting area of the good; there’s a good that goes beyond knowledge and existence, which, like Glaucon in the Republic, is hard for us to grasp. This good will now be shown to us in different forms and levels. We’ve figured out the relative value of pleasure and knowledge, but they still haven’t found their exact place in the hierarchy of goods. We face some challenges in the listing: First, how do we separate the first from the second class of goods, or the second from the third? Second, why isn’t there any mention of the supreme mind? Third, what about the nature of the fourth class? Fourth, what does the reference to a sixth class mean, which isn’t explored further?
(I) Plato seems to proceed in his table of goods, from the more abstract to the less abstract; from the subjective to the objective; until at the lower end of the scale we fairly descend into the region of human action and feeling. To him, the greater the abstraction the greater the truth, and he is always tending to see abstractions within abstractions; which, like the ideas in the Parmenides, are always appearing one behind another. Hence we find a difficulty in following him into the sphere of thought which he is seeking to attain. First in his scale of goods he places measure, in which he finds the eternal nature: this would be more naturally expressed in modern language as eternal law, and seems to be akin both to the finite and to the mind or cause, which were two of the elements in the former table. Like the supreme nature in the Timaeus, like the ideal beauty in the Symposium or the Phaedrus, or like the ideal good in the Republic, this is the absolute and unapproachable being. But this being is manifested in symmetry and beauty everywhere, in the order of nature and of mind, in the relations of men to one another. For the word 'measure' he now substitutes the word 'symmetry,' as if intending to express measure conceived as relation. He then proceeds to regard the good no longer in an objective form, but as the human reason seeking to attain truth by the aid of dialectic; such at least we naturally infer to be his meaning, when we consider that both here and in the Republic the sphere of nous or mind is assigned to dialectic. (2) It is remarkable (see above) that this personal conception of mind is confined to the human mind, and not extended to the divine. (3) If we may be allowed to interpret one dialogue of Plato by another, the sciences of figure and number are probably classed with the arts and true opinions, because they proceed from hypotheses (compare Republic). (4) The sixth class, if a sixth class is to be added, is playfully set aside by a quotation from Orpheus: Plato means to say that a sixth class, if there be such a class, is not worth considering, because pleasure, having only gained the fifth place in the scale of goods, is already out of the running.
(I) Plato seems to organize his table of goods from the more abstract to the less abstract; from the subjective to the objective; until we reach the bottom where we get into the realm of human action and feelings. For him, the more abstract something is, the more truth it holds, and he tends to see abstractions layered within abstractions; these appear, like the ideas in the Parmenides, one after another. This makes it challenging to follow him into the realm of thought he's trying to reach. He first positions measure as the highest in his scale of goods, where he finds eternal nature; this could be better expressed in modern terms as eternal law and seems related to both the finite and the mind or cause, which were two elements in the previous table. Like the supreme nature in the Timaeus, like ideal beauty in the Symposium or the Phaedrus, or the ideal good in the Republic, this represents the absolute and unreachable being. But this being is shown in symmetry and beauty everywhere, in the order of nature and the mind, and in the relationships between people. Instead of 'measure,' he now uses the word 'symmetry,' as if he wants to convey measure understood as relation. He then sees the good not as an objective form, but as human reason trying to grasp truth through dialectic; this is what we naturally assume his meaning to be, especially since both here and in the Republic, dialectic is associated with the sphere of nous or mind. (2) It's interesting (see above) that this personal view of mind is limited to the human mind and is not applied to the divine. (3) If we interpret one of Plato's dialogues through another, the sciences of figure and number are likely grouped with the arts and true opinions because they arise from hypotheses (compare Republic). (4) The sixth class, if one is to be added, is humorously dismissed with a quote from Orpheus: Plato seems to suggest that a sixth class, if it exists, isn’t worth considering, because pleasure, having only made it to fifth place in the scale of goods, is already out of the running.
VI. We may now endeavour to ascertain the relation of the Philebus to the other dialogues. Here Plato shows the same indifference to his own doctrine of Ideas which he has already manifested in the Parmenides and the Sophist. The principle of the one and many of which he here speaks, is illustrated by examples in the Sophist and Statesman. Notwithstanding the differences of style, many resemblances may be noticed between the Philebus and Gorgias. The theory of the simultaneousness of pleasure and pain is common to both of them (Phil. Gorg.); there is also a common tendency in them to take up arms against pleasure, although the view of the Philebus, which is probably the later of the two dialogues, is the more moderate. There seems to be an allusion to the passage in the Gorgias, in which Socrates dilates on the pleasures of itching and scratching. Nor is there any real discrepancy in the manner in which Gorgias and his art are spoken of in the two dialogues. For Socrates is far from implying that the art of rhetoric has a real sphere of practical usefulness: he only means that the refutation of the claims of Gorgias is not necessary for his present purpose. He is saying in effect: 'Admit, if you please, that rhetoric is the greatest and usefullest of sciences:—this does not prove that dialectic is not the purest and most exact.' From the Sophist and Statesman we know that his hostility towards the sophists and rhetoricians was not mitigated in later life; although both in the Statesman and Laws he admits of a higher use of rhetoric.
VI. We can now try to figure out how the Philebus relates to the other dialogues. Here, Plato shows the same indifference to his own doctrine of Ideas that he has already displayed in the Parmenides and the Sophist. The principle of the one and many that he talks about here is illustrated with examples in the Sophist and Statesman. Despite the differences in style, there are many similarities between the Philebus and Gorgias. Both explore the idea that pleasure and pain occur simultaneously (Phil. Gorg.); they also both tend to oppose pleasure, although the perspective in the Philebus, which is likely the later of the two dialogues, is more moderate. There seems to be a reference to the passage in the Gorgias where Socrates elaborates on the pleasures of itching and scratching. There's no real inconsistency in how Gorgias and his art are discussed in the two dialogues. Socrates does not suggest that the art of rhetoric has any genuine practical value; rather, he is saying that he doesn't need to refute Gorgias's claims for his current argument. Essentially, he is saying: 'You may accept that rhetoric is the greatest and most useful of sciences:—this does not prove that dialectic is not the purest and most precise.' From the Sophist and Statesman, we see that his criticism of the sophists and rhetoricians did not lessen in his later years, although he recognizes a higher purpose for rhetoric in both the Statesman and Laws.
Reasons have been already given for assigning a late date to the Philebus. That the date is probably later than that of the Republic, may be further argued on the following grounds:—1. The general resemblance to the later dialogues and to the Laws: 2. The more complete account of the nature of good and pleasure: 3. The distinction between perception, memory, recollection, and opinion which indicates a great progress in psychology; also between understanding and imagination, which is described under the figure of the scribe and the painter. A superficial notion may arise that Plato probably wrote shorter dialogues, such as the Philebus, the Sophist, and the Statesman, as studies or preparations for longer ones. This view may be natural; but on further reflection is seen to be fallacious, because these three dialogues are found to make an advance upon the metaphysical conceptions of the Republic. And we can more easily suppose that Plato composed shorter writings after longer ones, than suppose that he lost hold of further points of view which he had once attained.
Reasons have already been provided for dating the Philebus later. It's likely that this work comes after the Republic, based on the following points: 1. The overall similarity to the later dialogues and to the Laws; 2. The more detailed explanation of the nature of good and pleasure; 3. The distinction made between perception, memory, recollection, and opinion, which shows significant progress in psychology, as well as the difference between understanding and imagination, represented by the analogy of the scribe and the painter. One might think that Plato wrote shorter dialogues like the Philebus, the Sophist, and the Statesman as studies or drafts for longer works. This perspective seems reasonable at first, but upon closer examination, it proves incorrect because these three dialogues actually build on the metaphysical ideas presented in the Republic. It seems more plausible that Plato wrote shorter pieces after completing longer ones, rather than that he lost grasp of previously developed viewpoints.
It is more easy to find traces of the Pythagoreans, Eleatics, Megarians, Cynics, Cyrenaics and of the ideas of Anaxagoras, in the Philebus, than to say how much is due to each of them. Had we fuller records of those old philosophers, we should probably find Plato in the midst of the fray attempting to combine Eleatic and Pythagorean doctrines, and seeking to find a truth beyond either Being or number; setting up his own concrete conception of good against the abstract practical good of the Cynics, or the abstract intellectual good of the Megarians, and his own idea of classification against the denial of plurality in unity which is also attributed to them; warring against the Eristics as destructive of truth, as he had formerly fought against the Sophists; taking up a middle position between the Cynics and Cyrenaics in his doctrine of pleasure; asserting with more consistency than Anaxagoras the existence of an intelligent mind and cause. Of the Heracliteans, whom he is said by Aristotle to have cultivated in his youth, he speaks in the Philebus, as in the Theaetetus and Cratylus, with irony and contempt. But we have not the knowledge which would enable us to pursue further the line of reflection here indicated; nor can we expect to find perfect clearness or order in the first efforts of mankind to understand the working of their own minds. The ideas which they are attempting to analyse, they are also in process of creating; the abstract universals of which they are seeking to adjust the relations have been already excluded by them from the category of relation.
It's easier to find influences from the Pythagoreans, Eleatics, Megarians, Cynics, Cyrenaics, and Anaxagoras's ideas in the Philebus than to determine how much each contributed. If we had better records of those ancient philosophers, we’d probably see Plato right in the mix, trying to merge Eleatic and Pythagorean ideas and searching for a truth that goes beyond either Being or numbers. He sets up his own concrete idea of the good against the Cynics' abstract practical good and the Megarians' abstract intellectual good, while also presenting his own classification idea against their denial of unity in plurality. He fights against the Eristics, seeing them as destructive to truth, just as he previously battled the Sophists. Plato takes a middle ground between the Cynics and Cyrenaics in his view of pleasure and asserts the existence of an intelligent mind and cause more consistently than Anaxagoras. He addresses the Heracliteans, whom Aristotle claims he studied in his youth, with sarcasm and disdain in the Philebus, as well as in the Theaetetus and Cratylus. However, we lack the knowledge that would allow us to delve deeper into this line of thought. We also can't expect to find perfect clarity or structure in humanity's early attempts to understand their own minds. The concepts they’re trying to analyze, they are also in the process of creating; the abstract universals they seek to relate have already been excluded by them from the category of relation.
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The Philebus, like the Cratylus, is supposed to be the continuation of a previous discussion. An argument respecting the comparative claims of pleasure and wisdom to rank as the chief good has been already carried on between Philebus and Socrates. The argument is now transferred to Protarchus, the son of Callias, a noble Athenian youth, sprung from a family which had spent 'a world of money' on the Sophists (compare Apol.; Crat.; Protag.). Philebus, who appears to be the teacher, or elder friend, and perhaps the lover, of Protarchus, takes no further part in the discussion beyond asserting in the strongest manner his adherence, under all circumstances, to the cause of pleasure.
The Philebus, like the Cratylus, is believed to continue a prior discussion. A debate about whether pleasure or wisdom should be considered the highest good has already taken place between Philebus and Socrates. Now, the discussion is being shifted to Protarchus, the son of Callias, a young noble from Athens whose family has spent "a fortune" on the Sophists (see Apol.; Crat.; Protag.). Philebus, who seems to be the teacher or older friend, and possibly the lover, of Protarchus, no longer engages in the debate except to strongly affirm his unwavering support for pleasure.
Socrates suggests that they shall have a first and second palm of victory. For there may be a good higher than either pleasure or wisdom, and then neither of them will gain the first prize, but whichever of the two is more akin to this higher good will have a right to the second. They agree, and Socrates opens the game by enlarging on the diversity and opposition which exists among pleasures. For there are pleasures of all kinds, good and bad, wise and foolish—pleasures of the temperate as well as of the intemperate. Protarchus replies that although pleasures may be opposed in so far as they spring from opposite sources, nevertheless as pleasures they are alike. Yes, retorts Socrates, pleasure is like pleasure, as figure is like figure and colour like colour; yet we all know that there is great variety among figures and colours. Protarchus does not see the drift of this remark; and Socrates proceeds to ask how he can have a right to attribute a new predicate (i.e. 'good') to pleasures in general, when he cannot deny that they are different? What common property in all of them does he mean to indicate by the term 'good'? If he continues to assert that there is some trivial sense in which pleasure is one, Socrates may retort by saying that knowledge is one, but the result will be that such merely verbal and trivial conceptions, whether of knowledge or pleasure, will spoil the discussion, and will prove the incapacity of the two disputants. In order to avoid this danger, he proposes that they shall beat a retreat, and, before they proceed, come to an understanding about the 'high argument' of the one and the many.
Socrates suggests that they will have a first and second place for victory. There might be a greater good than either pleasure or wisdom, and in that case, neither of them would get the top prize, but whichever one aligns more closely with this greater good will be entitled to the second place. They agree, and Socrates starts off by discussing the variety and opposition that exists among pleasures. There are all sorts of pleasures, both good and bad, wise and foolish—pleasures that come from being moderate as well as from being indulgent. Protarchus responds that even though pleasures may oppose each other based on their different sources, they are still similar in nature as pleasures. Yes, Socrates counters, pleasure is like pleasure, just as shapes are like shapes and colors like colors; yet we all recognize that there is a wide range among shapes and colors. Protarchus doesn't grasp the point of this observation, and Socrates goes on to ask how he can rightfully assign a new quality (i.e., 'good') to pleasures in general when he cannot argue that they are the same? What shared characteristic is he referring to when he calls them 'good'? If he keeps insisting that there is some trivial sense in which pleasure is one, Socrates may respond that knowledge is one too, but that would mean such mere verbal and trivial claims, whether about knowledge or pleasure, would derail the conversation and reveal the inability of both speakers. To avoid this issue, he suggests they take a step back and clarify their understanding of the 'big question' of the one and the many before continuing.
Protarchus agrees to the proposal, but he is under the impression that Socrates means to discuss the common question—how a sensible object can be one, and yet have opposite attributes, such as 'great' and 'small,' 'light' and 'heavy,' or how there can be many members in one body, and the like wonders. Socrates has long ceased to see any wonder in these phenomena; his difficulties begin with the application of number to abstract unities (e.g.'man,' 'good') and with the attempt to divide them. For have these unities of idea any real existence? How, if imperishable, can they enter into the world of generation? How, as units, can they be divided and dispersed among different objects? Or do they exist in their entirety in each object? These difficulties are but imperfectly answered by Socrates in what follows.
Protarchus agrees to the proposal, but he thinks that Socrates wants to talk about the basic question—how a sensible object can be one thing while having opposite qualities, like 'big' and 'small,' 'light' and 'heavy,' or how there can be many parts in one body, and other similar puzzles. Socrates has long stopped finding these phenomena puzzling; his challenges start when applying numbers to abstract concepts (like 'man,' 'good') and trying to break them down. Do these concepts have any real existence? If they are unchanging, how can they exist in a world of change? How can they be divided and spread out among different objects as units? Or do they exist fully in each object? Socrates only partially answers these questions in what follows.
We speak of a one and many, which is ever flowing in and out of all things, concerning which a young man often runs wild in his first metaphysical enthusiasm, talking about analysis and synthesis to his father and mother and the neighbours, hardly sparing even his dog. This 'one in many' is a revelation of the order of the world, which some Prometheus first made known to our ancestors; and they, who were better men and nearer the gods than we are, have handed it down to us. To know how to proceed by regular steps from one to many, and from many to one, is just what makes the difference between eristic and dialectic. And the right way of proceeding is to look for one idea or class in all things, and when you have found one to look for more than one, and for all that there are, and when you have found them all and regularly divided a particular field of knowledge into classes, you may leave the further consideration of individuals. But you must not pass at once either from unity to infinity, or from infinity to unity. In music, for example, you may begin with the most general notion, but this alone will not make you a musician: you must know also the number and nature of the intervals, and the systems which are framed out of them, and the rhythms of the dance which correspond to them. And when you have a similar knowledge of any other subject, you may be said to know that subject. In speech again there are infinite varieties of sound, and some one who was a wise man, or more than man, comprehended them all in the classes of mutes, vowels, and semivowels, and gave to each of them a name, and assigned them to the art of grammar.
We talk about the relationship between the one and the many, which is constantly flowing in and out of everything. Often, a young person gets carried away in their first excitement about philosophy, discussing analysis and synthesis with their parents and neighbors, hardly even sparing their dog. This concept of 'one in many' reveals the order of the world, which some Prometheus first shared with our ancestors; and those ancestors, who were better people and closer to the gods than we are, passed it down to us. Understanding how to move step-by-step from one to many, and from many to one, is what distinguishes eristic from dialectic. The right approach is to seek out one idea or category in all things, and once you find one, look for more than one, and for everything there is. When you have identified all of them and systematically divided a specific area of knowledge into categories, you can stop focusing on individuals. However, you must not jump straight from unity to infinity or from infinity to unity. In music, for instance, you might start with the broadest idea, but just having that idea won't make you a musician: you also need to understand the number and nature of the intervals, the systems built from them, and the dance rhythms that relate to them. Once you have a similar understanding of any other subject, you can be said to know that subject. In language, there are countless variations of sound, and a wise person or someone beyond the ordinary grasped them all by classifying them as mutes, vowels, and semivowels, naming each, and assigning them to the field of grammar.
'But whither, Socrates, are you going? And what has this to do with the comparative eligibility of pleasure and wisdom:' Socrates replies, that before we can adjust their respective claims, we want to know the number and kinds of both of them. What are they? He is requested to answer the question himself. That he will, if he may be allowed to make one or two preliminary remarks. In the first place he has a dreamy recollection of hearing that neither pleasure nor knowledge is the highest good, for the good should be perfect and sufficient. But is the life of pleasure perfect and sufficient, when deprived of memory, consciousness, anticipation? Is not this the life of an oyster? Or is the life of mind sufficient, if devoid of any particle of pleasure? Must not the union of the two be higher and more eligible than either separately? And is not the element which makes this mixed life eligible more akin to mind than to pleasure? Thus pleasure is rejected and mind is rejected. And yet there may be a life of mind, not human but divine, which conquers still.
'But where are you going, Socrates? And how is this related to comparing the value of pleasure and wisdom?' Socrates answers that before we can evaluate their claims, we need to understand how many types there are of both. What are they? He’s asked to respond to the question himself. He will, if he can first make a couple of preliminary points. First, he vaguely recalls hearing that neither pleasure nor knowledge is the highest good, since the good should be perfect and sufficient. But is a life of pleasure perfect and sufficient when it lacks memory, consciousness, or anticipation? Isn’t that the life of an oyster? Or is a life of the mind sufficient without any pleasure? Shouldn't the combination of the two be greater and more preferable than either on their own? And isn’t the aspect that makes this blended life preferable more related to the mind than to pleasure? So, pleasure is set aside, and the mind is set aside. Yet, there could still be a life of the mind, not human but divine, that prevails.
But, if we are to pursue this argument further, we shall require some new weapons; and by this, I mean a new classification of existence. (1) There is a finite element of existence, and (2) an infinite, and (3) the union of the two, and (4) the cause of the union. More may be added if they are wanted, but at present we can do without them. And first of the infinite or indefinite:—That is the class which is denoted by the terms more or less, and is always in a state of comparison. All words or ideas to which the words 'gently,' 'extremely,' and other comparative expressions are applied, fall under this class. The infinite would be no longer infinite, if limited or reduced to measure by number and quantity. The opposite class is the limited or finite, and includes all things which have number and quantity. And there is a third class of generation into essence by the union of the finite and infinite, in which the finite gives law to the infinite;—under this are comprehended health, strength, temperate seasons, harmony, beauty, and the like. The goddess of beauty saw the universal wantonness of all things, and gave law and order to be the salvation of the soul. But no effect can be generated without a cause, and therefore there must be a fourth class, which is the cause of generation; for the cause or agent is not the same as the patient or effect.
But if we’re going to explore this argument further, we’ll need some new tools; and by that, I mean a new way to classify existence. (1) There’s a finite element of existence, and (2) an infinite one, and (3) the combination of the two, and (4) the cause of that combination. We could add more if necessary, but for now, we can get by without them. First, let’s look at the infinite or indefinite: This class is represented by terms like more or less, and is always in a state of comparison. All words or ideas that use terms like 'gently,' 'extremely,' and other comparative expressions fall into this category. The infinite wouldn’t be infinite anymore if it were limited or measured by numbers and quantities. The opposite category is the limited or finite, which includes everything that has number and quantity. Then there’s a third category that comes from the combination of the finite and infinite, where the finite imposes structure on the infinite; this includes health, strength, balanced seasons, harmony, beauty, and similar concepts. The goddess of beauty recognized the chaotic nature of all things and brought law and order to save the soul. But no effect can happen without a cause, so we need a fourth category, which is the cause of that creation; because the cause or agent is not the same as the patient or effect.
And now, having obtained our classes, we may determine in which our conqueror life is to be placed: Clearly in the third or mixed class, in which the finite gives law to the infinite. And in which is pleasure to find a place? As clearly in the infinite or indefinite, which alone, as Protarchus thinks (who seems to confuse the infinite with the superlative), gives to pleasure the character of the absolute good. Yes, retorts Socrates, and also to pain the character of absolute evil. And therefore the infinite cannot be that which imparts to pleasure the nature of the good. But where shall we place mind? That is a very serious and awful question, which may be prefaced by another. Is mind or chance the lord of the universe? All philosophers will say the first, and yet, perhaps, they may be only magnifying themselves. And for this reason I should like to consider the matter a little more deeply, even though some lovers of disorder in the world should ridicule my attempt.
And now that we've established our categories, we can decide where our conquering life fits: Clearly, it belongs in the third or mixed category, where the finite governs the infinite. And where should pleasure fit? Obviously, in the infinite or indefinite, which alone, as Protarchus thinks (who seems to confuse infinite with the highest), gives pleasure the quality of the absolute good. Yes, Socrates replies, but it also gives pain the quality of absolute evil. Therefore, the infinite cannot be what gives pleasure the nature of good. But where should we place the mind? That's a very serious and significant question, which can be introduced by another one. Is the mind or chance the ruler of the universe? All philosophers would say the former, yet perhaps they might just be inflating their own importance. For this reason, I want to explore the issue a little more deeply, even if some chaos-lovers in the world might mock my effort.
Now the elements earth, air, fire, water, exist in us, and they exist in the cosmos; but they are purer and fairer in the cosmos than they are in us, and they come to us from thence. And as we have a soul as well as a body, in like manner the elements of the finite, the infinite, the union of the two, and the cause, are found to exist in us. And if they, like the elements, exist in us, and the three first exist in the world, must not the fourth or cause which is the noblest of them, exist in the world? And this cause is wisdom or mind, the royal mind of Zeus, who is the king of all, as there are other gods who have other noble attributes. Observe how well this agrees with the testimony of men of old, who affirmed mind to be the ruler of the universe. And remember that mind belongs to the class which we term the cause, and pleasure to the infinite or indefinite class. We will examine the place and origin of both.
Now the elements of earth, air, fire, and water exist within us and in the cosmos. However, they are purer and more beautiful in the cosmos than in us, and they come to us from there. Just as we have a soul along with a body, the elements of the finite, the infinite, their union, and the cause also exist within us. If they exist in us like the elements, and the first three exist in the world, doesn’t the fourth or cause, which is the noblest of them, also exist in the world? This cause is wisdom or mind, the royal mind of Zeus, who is the king of all, alongside other gods with their own noble qualities. Notice how well this aligns with what ancient people claimed, that mind rules the universe. Remember that mind falls under the category we call the cause, while pleasure belongs to the infinite or indefinite category. We will explore the place and origin of both.
What is the origin of pleasure? Her natural seat is the mixed class, in which health and harmony were placed. Pain is the violation, and pleasure the restoration of limit. There is a natural union of finite and infinite, which in hunger, thirst, heat, cold, is impaired—this is painful, but the return to nature, in which the elements are restored to their normal proportions, is pleasant. Here is our first class of pleasures. And another class of pleasures and pains are hopes and fears; these are in the mind only. And inasmuch as the pleasures are unalloyed by pains and the pains by pleasures, the examination of them may show us whether all pleasure is to be desired, or whether this entire desirableness is not rather the attribute of another class. But if pleasures and pains consist in the violation and restoration of limit, may there not be a neutral state, in which there is neither dissolution nor restoration? That is a further question, and admitting, as we must, the possibility of such a state, there seems to be no reason why the life of wisdom should not exist in this neutral state, which is, moreover, the state of the gods, who cannot, without indecency, be supposed to feel either joy or sorrow.
What’s the source of pleasure? Its natural place is in the balanced state, where health and harmony exist. Pain comes from breaking limits, while pleasure comes from restoring them. There’s a natural connection between the finite and the infinite, which gets disrupted through hunger, thirst, heat, and cold—this causes pain. But returning to a natural state, where everything is back in balance, feels good. This is our first category of pleasures. Another category involves hopes and fears; these exist only in the mind. Since these pleasures are pure and not mixed with pain, and pains are not mixed with pleasure, examining them might help us understand if all pleasure is genuinely desirable, or if this desirability belongs to a different category altogether. However, if pleasures and pains stem from breaking and restoring limits, could there be a neutral state where neither happens? That’s another question. Assuming such a state is possible, there seems to be no reason why a wise life couldn’t exist in this neutral state, which is also the state of the gods, who are not thought to feel joy or sadness without it being inappropriate.
The second class of pleasures involves memory. There are affections which are extinguished before they reach the soul, and of these there is no consciousness, and therefore no memory. And there are affections which the body and soul feel together, and this feeling is termed consciousness. And memory is the preservation of consciousness, and reminiscence is the recovery of consciousness. Now the memory of pleasure, when a man is in pain, is the memory of the opposite of his actual bodily state, and is therefore not in the body, but in the mind. And there may be an intermediate state, in which a person is balanced between pleasure and pain; in his body there is want which is a cause of pain, but in his mind a sure hope of replenishment, which is pleasant. (But if the hope be converted into despair, he has two pains and not a balance of pain and pleasure.) Another question is raised: May not pleasures, like opinions, be true and false? In the sense of being real, both must be admitted to be true: nor can we deny that to both of them qualities may be attributed; for pleasures as well as opinions may be described as good or bad. And though we do not all of us allow that there are true and false pleasures, we all acknowledge that there are some pleasures associated with right opinion, and others with falsehood and ignorance. Let us endeavour to analyze the nature of this association.
The second category of pleasures involves memories. Some feelings fade before they reach the mind, and regarding these, there’s no awareness and thus no memory. Then, there are feelings that both the body and mind experience together, and this experience is called consciousness. Memory is the preservation of consciousness, while reminiscence is the retrieval of that consciousness. Now, the memory of pleasure, when someone is in pain, represents the opposite of their current physical state and exists in the mind rather than the body. There may also be a middle ground where a person feels torn between pleasure and pain; they might experience physical lack causing pain, but maintain a hopeful anticipation of relief in their mind, which is pleasant. (However, if hope turns into despair, they experience two types of pain rather than a balance between pleasure and pain.) Another question arises: can pleasures be true or false, similar to opinions? In terms of reality, both can be considered true; we cannot deny that both can possess certain qualities, as pleasures can be categorized as good or bad. While not everyone agrees that there are true and false pleasures, we all recognize that some pleasures align with correct beliefs, while others are linked to falsehood and ignorance. Let’s try to break down the nature of this connection.
Opinion is based on perception, which may be correct or mistaken. You may see a figure at a distance, and say first of all, 'This is a man,' and then say, 'No, this is an image made by the shepherds.' And you may affirm this in a proposition to your companion, or make the remark mentally to yourself. Whether the words are actually spoken or not, on such occasions there is a scribe within who registers them, and a painter who paints the images of the things which the scribe has written down in the soul,—at least that is my own notion of the process; and the words and images which are inscribed by them may be either true or false; and they may represent either past, present, or future. And, representing the future, they must also represent the pleasures and pains of anticipation—the visions of gold and other fancies which are never wanting in the mind of man. Now these hopes, as they are termed, are propositions, which are sometimes true, and sometimes false; for the good, who are the friends of the gods, see true pictures of the future, and the bad false ones. And as there may be opinion about things which are not, were not, and will not be, which is opinion still, so there may be pleasure about things which are not, were not, and will not be, which is pleasure still,—that is to say, false pleasure; and only when false, can pleasure, like opinion, be vicious. Against this conclusion Protarchus reclaims.
Opinion is based on perception, which can be right or wrong. You might see something from a distance and first say, "That's a man," and then change your mind and say, "No, that's just a figure created by the shepherds." You can either share this thought with a friend or just think it to yourself. Whether you actually speak these words or not, there's an internal scribe that records them and a painter that depicts the images of what the scribe has written in your mind—at least that's how I see it. The words and images created by them can be true or false, and they can refer to the past, present, or future. When representing the future, they must also involve the joys and sorrows of anticipation—the dreams of wealth and other fantasies that constantly occupy people's minds. These hopes, as they are called, are statements that can be true or false; the righteous, who are favored by the gods, see accurate visions of the future, while the wicked see distorted ones. Just as there can be opinions about things that don't exist, didn't exist, or won't exist—which is still considered opinion—there can also be pleasure about things that aren't real, never were, or won't be, which is still seen as pleasure—that is, false pleasure; and only when false can pleasure, like opinion, be harmful. Protarchus protests against this conclusion.
Leaving his denial for the present, Socrates proceeds to show that some pleasures are false from another point of view. In desire, as we admitted, the body is divided from the soul, and hence pleasures and pains are often simultaneous. And we further admitted that both of them belonged to the infinite class. How, then, can we compare them? Are we not liable, or rather certain, as in the case of sight, to be deceived by distance and relation? In this case the pleasures and pains are not false because based upon false opinion, but are themselves false. And there is another illusion: pain has often been said by us to arise out of the derangement—pleasure out of the restoration—of our nature. But in passing from one to the other, do we not experience neutral states, which although they appear pleasureable or painful are really neither? For even if we admit, with the wise man whom Protarchus loves (and only a wise man could have ever entertained such a notion), that all things are in a perpetual flux, still these changes are often unconscious, and devoid either of pleasure or pain. We assume, then, that there are three states—pleasureable, painful, neutral; we may embellish a little by calling them gold, silver, and that which is neither.
Putting aside his denial for now, Socrates goes on to explain that some pleasures are misleading from another perspective. As we acknowledged, desire separates the body from the soul, making pleasures and pains often occur at the same time. We also agreed that both belong to an infinite category. So, how can we really compare them? Aren't we likely, or even certain, to be misled by distance and relationships, like with sight? In this case, pleasures and pains aren’t false because they stem from mistaken beliefs, but they are actually false themselves. There’s another illusion: we’ve often said that pain comes from a disruption in our nature, while pleasure comes from a return to balance. But when we transition from one to the other, don’t we go through neutral states that may seem pleasurable or painful but are really neither? Even if we accept, as the wise man whom Protarchus admires suggests (and only a wise person could have contemplated such an idea), that everything is in constant change, these shifts are often unnoticed and lack any pleasure or pain. So, we propose that there are three states—pleasurable, painful, and neutral; we could enhance our descriptions a bit by calling them gold, silver, and the one that is neither.
But there are certain natural philosophers who will not admit a third state. Their instinctive dislike to pleasure leads them to affirm that pleasure is only the absence of pain. They are noble fellows, and, although we do not agree with them, we may use them as diviners who will indicate to us the right track. They will say, that the nature of anything is best known from the examination of extreme cases, e.g. the nature of hardness from the examination of the hardest things; and that the nature of pleasure will be best understood from an examination of the most intense pleasures. Now these are the pleasures of the body, not of the mind; the pleasures of disease and not of health, the pleasures of the intemperate and not of the temperate. I am speaking, not of the frequency or continuance, but only of the intensity of such pleasures, and this is given them by contrast with the pain or sickness of body which precedes them. Their morbid nature is illustrated by the lesser instances of itching and scratching, respecting which I swear that I cannot tell whether they are a pleasure or a pain. (1) Some of these arise out of a transition from one state of the body to another, as from cold to hot; (2) others are caused by the contrast of an internal pain and an external pleasure in the body: sometimes the feeling of pain predominates, as in itching and tingling, when they are relieved by scratching; sometimes the feeling of pleasure: or the pleasure which they give may be quite overpowering, and is then accompanied by all sorts of unutterable feelings which have a death of delights in them. But there are also mixed pleasures which are in the mind only. For are not love and sorrow as well as anger 'sweeter than honey,' and also full of pain? Is there not a mixture of feelings in the spectator of tragedy? and of comedy also? 'I do not understand that last.' Well, then, with the view of lighting up the obscurity of these mixed feelings, let me ask whether envy is painful. 'Yes.' And yet the envious man finds something pleasing in the misfortunes of others? 'True.' And ignorance is a misfortune? 'Certainly.' And one form of ignorance is self-conceit—a man may fancy himself richer, fairer, better, wiser than he is? 'Yes.' And he who thus deceives himself may be strong or weak? 'He may.' And if he is strong we fear him, and if he is weak we laugh at him, which is a pleasure, and yet we envy him, which is a pain? These mixed feelings are the rationale of tragedy and comedy, and equally the rationale of the greater drama of human life. (There appears to be some confusion in this passage. There is no difficulty in seeing that in comedy, as in tragedy, the spectator may view the performance with mixed feelings of pain as well as of pleasure; nor is there any difficulty in understanding that envy is a mixed feeling, which rejoices not without pain at the misfortunes of others, and laughs at their ignorance of themselves. But Plato seems to think further that he has explained the feeling of the spectator in comedy sufficiently by a theory which only applies to comedy in so far as in comedy we laugh at the conceit or weakness of others. He has certainly given a very partial explanation of the ridiculous.) Having shown how sorrow, anger, envy are feelings of a mixed nature, I will reserve the consideration of the remainder for another occasion.
But some philosophers won’t accept a third state. Their instinctive dislike of pleasure leads them to claim that pleasure is merely the absence of pain. They are good people, and while we don’t necessarily agree with them, we can use their insights to help us find the right path. They argue that the essence of anything is best understood by examining extremes, for example, understanding hardness by looking at the hardest things; similarly, the essence of pleasure can be better grasped by exploring the most intense pleasures. These are bodily pleasures, not mental ones; they come from sickness rather than health, from excess rather than moderation. I'm not discussing how often or how long these pleasures last, only their intensity, which is highlighted by the pain or illness that comes before them. Their unhealthy nature is shown by lesser examples like itching and scratching, which I can’t quite categorize as either pleasure or pain. Some stem from a shift in body states, like moving from cold to hot; others arise from the contrast between internal pain and external pleasure in the body: sometimes pain is dominant, like in itching and tingling that feels better when scratched; other times pleasure prevails, and when it does, it can be overwhelming, accompanied by indescribable feelings that contain a wealth of delight. But there are also mixed pleasures that exist only in the mind. Aren't love and sorrow, as well as anger, often "sweeter than honey," yet also painful? Isn't there a blend of emotions in the audience during both tragedy and comedy? "I don’t get that last part." Okay, to clarify these mixed emotions, let’s consider whether envy is painful. "Yes." Yet the envious person finds some joy in the misfortunes of others? "True." And isn’t ignorance a misfortune? "Definitely." And one type of ignorance is self-deception—a person might believe they’re richer, more attractive, better, or smarter than they actually are? "Yes." And someone who deceives themselves could be strong or weak? "They could." If they are strong, we fear them, and if they are weak, we laugh at them, which brings pleasure, yet we still envy them, which causes pain? These mixed emotions explain the nature of tragedy and comedy, and the broader drama of human life. (There seems to be some confusion in this passage. It’s clear that in both comedy and tragedy, the audience can have mixed feelings of pain and pleasure; likewise, it’s understandable that envy is a mixed emotion that finds pleasure tinged with pain in others’ misfortunes, while also laughing at their ignorance. But Plato appears to think he has fully explained the audience's experience in comedy with a theory that only touches on laughter at others' flaws or weaknesses. His explanation of what makes things ridiculous is certainly incomplete.) Having shown how sorrow, anger, and envy are mixed feelings, I’ll save the further discussion for another time.
Next follow the unmixed pleasures; which, unlike the philosophers of whom I was speaking, I believe to be real. These unmixed pleasures are: (1) The pleasures derived from beauty of form, colour, sound, smell, which are absolutely pure; and in general those which are unalloyed with pain: (2) The pleasures derived from the acquisition of knowledge, which in themselves are pure, but may be attended by an accidental pain of forgetting; this, however, arises from a subsequent act of reflection, of which we need take no account. At the same time, we admit that the latter pleasures are the property of a very few. To these pure and unmixed pleasures we ascribe measure, whereas all others belong to the class of the infinite, and are liable to every species of excess. And here several questions arise for consideration:—What is the meaning of pure and impure, of moderate and immoderate? We may answer the question by an illustration: Purity of white paint consists in the clearness or quality of the white, and this is distinct from the quantity or amount of white paint; a little pure white is fairer than a great deal which is impure. But there is another question:—Pleasure is affirmed by ingenious philosophers to be a generation; they say that there are two natures—one self-existent, the other dependent; the one noble and majestic, the other failing in both these qualities. 'I do not understand.' There are lovers and there are loves. 'Yes, I know, but what is the application?' The argument is in play, and desires to intimate that there are relatives and there are absolutes, and that the relative is for the sake of the absolute; and generation is for the sake of essence. Under relatives I class all things done with a view to generation; and essence is of the class of good. But if essence is of the class of good, generation must be of some other class; and our friends, who affirm that pleasure is a generation, would laugh at the notion that pleasure is a good; and at that other notion, that pleasure is produced by generation, which is only the alternative of destruction. Who would prefer such an alternation to the equable life of pure thought? Here is one absurdity, and not the only one, to which the friends of pleasure are reduced. For is there not also an absurdity in affirming that good is of the soul only; or in declaring that the best of men, if he be in pain, is bad?
Next come the pure pleasures, which, unlike the philosophers I mentioned earlier, I believe to be real. These pure pleasures are: (1) The enjoyment we get from beauty in form, color, sound, and smell, which are completely free of any pain; and generally, those feelings that are not mixed with suffering: (2) The enjoyment from gaining knowledge, which is inherently pure but may be accompanied by the accidental pain of forgetting; however, that comes from a later act of reflection, which we can ignore for now. At the same time, we acknowledge that these latter pleasures belong to only a select few. We assign a certain measure to these pure and unmixed pleasures, while all other pleasures fall into the category of infinite and can easily lead to excess. Several questions arise from this:—What do we mean by pure and impure, moderate and immoderate? We can illustrate this: The purity of white paint lies in its clarity or quality, which is different from the quantity of that white paint; a small amount of pure white is more beautiful than a large amount that is not pure. But there's another question:—Some clever philosophers claim that pleasure is a kind of generation; they say there are two natures—one self-existent, and the other dependent; one is noble and majestic, while the other lacks these qualities. 'I don’t get it.' There are lovers and there are the loves they have. 'Yes, I understand, but how does that apply here?' The argument is suggesting that there are relatives and absolutes, and that the relative exists for the sake of the absolute; and generation exists for the sake of essence. I categorize everything done for the purpose of generation under relatives, while essence belongs to the category of good. But if essence is deemed good, then generation must belong to another category; and our friends who claim that pleasure is a generation would scoff at the idea that pleasure is good; and at the notion that pleasure is produced by generation, which is merely the opposite of destruction. Who would choose such a trade-off over the balanced life of pure thought? This presents one absurdity, and it's not the only one that those who favor pleasure face. For isn't it also absurd to claim that good exists only in the soul; or to declare that the best person, if he experiences pain, is bad?
And now, from the consideration of pleasure, we pass to that of knowledge. Let us reflect that there are two kinds of knowledge—the one creative or productive, and the other educational and philosophical. Of the creative arts, there is one part purer or more akin to knowledge than the other. There is an element of guess-work and an element of number and measure in them. In music, for example, especially in flute-playing, the conjectural element prevails; while in carpentering there is more application of rule and measure. Of the creative arts, then, we may make two classes—the less exact and the more exact. And the exacter part of all of them is really arithmetic and mensuration. But arithmetic and mensuration again may be subdivided with reference either to their use in the concrete, or to their nature in the abstract—as they are regarded popularly in building and binding, or theoretically by philosophers. And, borrowing the analogy of pleasure, we may say that the philosophical use of them is purer than the other. Thus we have two arts of arithmetic, and two of mensuration. And truest of all in the estimation of every rational man is dialectic, or the science of being, which will forget and disown us, if we forget and disown her.
And now, moving from the idea of pleasure, we shift to the concept of knowledge. Let’s consider that there are two types of knowledge—one that's creative or productive, and the other that's educational and philosophical. Among the creative arts, some are closer to pure knowledge than others. They have elements of guesswork along with aspects of numbers and measurements. For instance, in music, especially when playing the flute, the guesswork component is more prominent; on the other hand, carpentry relies more on rules and measurements. Therefore, we can categorize the creative arts into two groups—the less precise and the more precise. The most precise of all is actually arithmetic and mensuration. However, arithmetic and mensuration can be further divided based on their practical use or their abstract nature—how they are commonly viewed in tasks like building and crafting versus how philosophers think about them. Following the analogy of pleasure, we can argue that their philosophical application is more refined than the practical one. Hence, we have two branches of arithmetic and two of mensuration. Most importantly, in the eyes of any rational person, dialectic, or the study of existence, is the truest form of knowledge, which will disregard us if we disregard her.
'But, Socrates, I have heard Gorgias say that rhetoric is the greatest and usefullest of arts; and I should not like to quarrel either with him or you.' Neither is there any inconsistency, Protarchus, with his statement in what I am now saying; for I am not maintaining that dialectic is the greatest or usefullest, but only that she is the truest of arts; my remark is not quantitative but qualitative, and refers not to the advantage or repetition of either, but to the degree of truth which they attain—here Gorgias will not care to compete; this is what we affirm to be possessed in the highest degree by dialectic. And do not let us appeal to Gorgias or Philebus or Socrates, but ask, on behalf of the argument, what are the highest truths which the soul has the power of attaining. And is not this the science which has a firmer grasp of them than any other? For the arts generally are only occupied with matters of opinion, and with the production and action and passion of this sensible world. But the highest truth is that which is eternal and unchangeable. And reason and wisdom are concerned with the eternal; and these are the very claimants, if not for the first, at least for the second place, whom I propose as rivals to pleasure.
'But, Socrates, I’ve heard Gorgias say that rhetoric is the greatest and most useful of the arts, and I wouldn’t want to argue with either him or you.' There’s no contradiction, Protarchus, in what I’m saying; I’m not claiming that dialectic is the greatest or most useful, but rather that it is the truest of the arts. My point isn’t about quantity but quality, and it’s not about the advantage or frequency of either, but about the level of truth they achieve—Gorgias won't want to debate this; we assert that dialectic holds the highest degree of truth. And let’s not rely on Gorgias, Philebus, or Socrates, but rather ask for the sake of the argument what the highest truths the soul can reach are. Isn’t this the discipline that understands them better than any other? Because arts, in general, deal only with opinions, and with the actions and experiences of this physical world. The highest truth is that which is eternal and unchanging. Reason and wisdom focus on the eternal; these are the contenders, if not for the first place, at least for the second, whom I present as rivals to pleasure.
And now, having the materials, we may proceed to mix them—first recapitulating the question at issue.
And now that we have the materials, we can move on to mixing them—first, let's summarize the main question.
Philebus affirmed pleasure to be the good, and assumed them to be one nature; I affirmed that they were two natures, and declared that knowledge was more akin to the good than pleasure. I said that the two together were more eligible than either taken singly; and to this we adhere. Reason intimates, as at first, that we should seek the good not in the unmixed life, but in the mixed.
Philebus claimed that pleasure is the good and believed they are the same thing; I argued that they are two different things and stated that knowledge is closer to the good than pleasure. I said that both together are preferable to either one alone; and we hold onto this. Reason suggests, as it did from the beginning, that we should look for the good not in an unmixed life, but in a mixed one.
The cup is ready, waiting to be mingled, and here are two fountains, one of honey, the other of pure water, out of which to make the fairest possible mixture. There are pure and impure pleasures—pure and impure sciences. Let us consider the sections of each which have the most of purity and truth; to admit them all indiscriminately would be dangerous. First we will take the pure sciences; but shall we mingle the impure—the art which uses the false rule and the false measure? That we must, if we are any of us to find our way home; man cannot live upon pure mathematics alone. And must I include music, which is admitted to be guess-work? 'Yes, you must, if human life is to have any humanity.' Well, then, I will open the door and let them all in; they shall mingle in an Homeric 'meeting of the waters.' And now we turn to the pleasures; shall I admit them? 'Admit first of all the pure pleasures; secondly, the necessary.' And what shall we say about the rest? First, ask the pleasures—they will be too happy to dwell with wisdom. Secondly, ask the arts and sciences—they reply that the excesses of intemperance are the ruin of them; and that they would rather only have the pleasures of health and temperance, which are the handmaidens of virtue. But still we want truth? That is now added; and so the argument is complete, and may be compared to an incorporeal law, which is to hold fair rule over a living body. And now we are at the vestibule of the good, in which there are three chief elements—truth, symmetry, and beauty. These will be the criterion of the comparative claims of pleasure and wisdom.
The cup is ready and waiting to be mixed, and here are two fountains, one of honey and the other of pure water, to create the finest possible blend. There are both pure and impure pleasures—pure and impure sciences. Let's look at each section to find which ones have the most purity and truth; letting them all mix indiscriminately could be risky. First, we'll focus on the pure sciences, but should we mix in the impure—the art that uses false rules and measures? We have to if any of us want to find our way home; humans can't survive on pure math alone. And what about music, which is often seen as guesswork? 'Yes, you must include it if human life is to have any humanity.' Alright then, I’ll open the door and let them all in; they'll blend in an epic 'meeting of the waters.' Now, shall I let in the pleasures? 'First, allow the pure pleasures; second, the necessary ones.' And what about the rest? First, ask the pleasures—they'll be eager to coexist with wisdom. Next, ask the arts and sciences—they'll tell you that the excesses of intemperance lead to their downfall; they'd prefer only the pleasures of health and moderation, which are the allies of virtue. But we still want truth? That’s included now; the argument is complete and can be likened to an incorporeal law that rules fairly over a living being. Now we’re at the gateway to goodness, where three key elements exist—truth, harmony, and beauty. These will serve as the standards for comparing pleasure and wisdom.
Which has the greater share of truth? Surely wisdom; for pleasure is the veriest impostor in the world, and the perjuries of lovers have passed into a proverb.
Which has more truth? Definitely wisdom; because pleasure is the biggest fraud in the world, and the lies of lovers have become a saying.
Which of symmetry? Wisdom again; for nothing is more immoderate than pleasure.
Which of symmetry? Wisdom once more; for nothing is more excessive than pleasure.
Which of beauty? Once more, wisdom; for pleasure is often unseemly, and the greatest pleasures are put out of sight.
Which of beauty? Once again, wisdom; because pleasure is often inappropriate, and the greatest pleasures are kept hidden.
Not pleasure, then, ranks first in the scale of good, but measure, and eternal harmony.
Not pleasure, then, is the top priority in the hierarchy of good, but balance and lasting harmony.
Second comes the symmetrical and beautiful and perfect.
Second comes the symmetrical, beautiful, and perfect.
Third, mind and wisdom.
Mind and wisdom.
Fourth, sciences and arts and true opinions.
Fourth, sciences, arts, and genuine opinions.
Fifth, painless pleasures.
Fifth, effortless pleasures.
Of a sixth class, I have no more to say. Thus, pleasure and mind may both renounce the claim to the first place. But mind is ten thousand times nearer to the chief good than pleasure. Pleasure ranks fifth and not first, even though all the animals in the world assert the contrary.
Of a sixth class, I have nothing more to add. So, both pleasure and the mind can give up their claim to the top spot. However, the mind is tens of thousands of times closer to the ultimate good than pleasure is. Pleasure is in fifth place, not first, even if every animal in the world insists otherwise.
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Please provide the text that you would like me to modernize.
From the days of Aristippus and Epicurus to our own times the nature of pleasure has occupied the attention of philosophers. 'Is pleasure an evil? a good? the only good?' are the simple forms which the enquiry assumed among the Socratic schools. But at an early stage of the controversy another question was asked: 'Do pleasures differ in kind? and are some bad, some good, and some neither bad nor good?' There are bodily and there are mental pleasures, which were at first confused but afterwards distinguished. A distinction was also made between necessary and unnecessary pleasures; and again between pleasures which had or had not corresponding pains. The ancient philosophers were fond of asking, in the language of their age, 'Is pleasure a "becoming" only, and therefore transient and relative, or do some pleasures partake of truth and Being?' To these ancient speculations the moderns have added a further question:—'Whose pleasure? The pleasure of yourself, or of your neighbour,—of the individual, or of the world?' This little addition has changed the whole aspect of the discussion: the same word is now supposed to include two principles as widely different as benevolence and self-love. Some modern writers have also distinguished between pleasure the test, and pleasure the motive of actions. For the universal test of right actions (how I know them) may not always be the highest or best motive of them (why I do them).
From the days of Aristippus and Epicurus to today, the nature of pleasure has been a topic of interest for philosophers. "Is pleasure an evil? A good? The only good?" are simple questions that the Socratic schools considered. But early in the debate, another question arose: "Do pleasures differ in type? Are some bad, some good, and some neither bad nor good?" There are physical and mental pleasures, which were initially mixed up but later recognized as distinct. A distinction was also made between necessary and unnecessary pleasures, and again between pleasures that come with or without corresponding pains. The ancient philosophers liked to ask, using the language of their time, "Is pleasure just a temporary and relative experience, or do some pleasures reflect truth and existence?" To these ancient discussions, modern thinkers have introduced an additional question: "Whose pleasure? Your pleasure or your neighbor's? The pleasure of the individual or that of the world?" This small addition has transformed the whole discussion: the same word is now seen to encompass two principles as different as kindness and self-interest. Some modern writers have also differentiated between pleasure as the measure of actions and pleasure as the reason behind actions. The universal standard for determining right actions (how I recognize them) may not always be the highest or best reason for taking those actions (why I do them).
Socrates, as we learn from the Memorabilia of Xenophon, first drew attention to the consequences of actions. Mankind were said by him to act rightly when they knew what they were doing, or, in the language of the Gorgias, 'did what they would.' He seems to have been the first who maintained that the good was the useful (Mem.). In his eagerness for generalization, seeking, as Aristotle says, for the universal in Ethics (Metaph.), he took the most obvious intellectual aspect of human action which occurred to him. He meant to emphasize, not pleasure, but the calculation of pleasure; neither is he arguing that pleasure is the chief good, but that we should have a principle of choice. He did not intend to oppose 'the useful' to some higher conception, such as the Platonic ideal, but to chance and caprice. The Platonic Socrates pursues the same vein of thought in the Protagoras, where he argues against the so-called sophist that pleasure and pain are the final standards and motives of good and evil, and that the salvation of human life depends upon a right estimate of pleasures greater or less when seen near and at a distance. The testimony of Xenophon is thus confirmed by that of Plato, and we are therefore justified in calling Socrates the first utilitarian; as indeed there is no side or aspect of philosophy which may not with reason be ascribed to him—he is Cynic and Cyrenaic, Platonist and Aristotelian in one. But in the Phaedo the Socratic has already passed into a more ideal point of view; and he, or rather Plato speaking in his person, expressly repudiates the notion that the exchange of a less pleasure for a greater can be an exchange of virtue. Such virtue is the virtue of ordinary men who live in the world of appearance; they are temperate only that they may enjoy the pleasures of intemperance, and courageous from fear of danger. Whereas the philosopher is seeking after wisdom and not after pleasure, whether near or distant: he is the mystic, the initiated, who has learnt to despise the body and is yearning all his life long for a truth which will hereafter be revealed to him. In the Republic the pleasures of knowledge are affirmed to be superior to other pleasures, because the philosopher so estimates them; and he alone has had experience of both kinds. (Compare a similar argument urged by one of the latest defenders of Utilitarianism, Mill's Utilitarianism). In the Philebus, Plato, although he regards the enemies of pleasure with complacency, still further modifies the transcendentalism of the Phaedo. For he is compelled to confess, rather reluctantly, perhaps, that some pleasures, i.e. those which have no antecedent pains, claim a place in the scale of goods.
Socrates, as we learn from Xenophon's Memorabilia, was the first to highlight the consequences of actions. He believed that humans act rightly when they understand what they are doing, or, to use the language of the Gorgias, "do what they want." He seems to have been the first to argue that good is equivalent to useful (Mem.). In his drive for generalization, looking for universals in ethics as Aristotle noted (Metaph.), he focused on the most obvious intellectual aspect of human action he could think of. He intended to stress not pleasure itself, but the calculation behind pleasure; he's not claiming that pleasure is the ultimate good but rather that we should have a principle for making choices. He wasn't trying to contrast "the useful" with a higher concept, like a Platonic ideal, but rather with randomness and impulse. The Platonic Socrates continues this line of thought in the Protagoras, where he argues against the so-called sophist that pleasure and pain are the final measures and motives of good and evil, and that the well-being of human life relies on accurately assessing pleasures as greater or lesser when viewed close up or from a distance. Xenophon's account is thus corroborated by Plato's, which justifies calling Socrates the first utilitarian; indeed, there's no aspect of philosophy that can't reasonably be attributed to him—he embodies elements of Cynicism, Cyrenaicism, Platonism, and Aristotelianism all at once. However, in the Phaedo, the Socratic view has already shifted towards a more ideal perspective; he, or rather Plato speaking through him, explicitly rejects the idea that trading a lesser pleasure for a greater one can be seen as an exchange of virtue. Such virtue is that of ordinary people living in the world of appearances; they are moderate only so they can enjoy the pleasures of excess and brave out of fear of danger. In contrast, the philosopher seeks wisdom, not pleasure, whether it's immediate or distant: he is the mystic, the initiated one, who has learned to disdain the body and longs all his life for a truth that will eventually be revealed to him. In the Republic, the pleasures of knowledge are said to be superior to other pleasures because that's how the philosopher values them; he alone has experienced both types. (Compare this to a similar argument made by one of the most recent defenders of Utilitarianism, Mill's Utilitarianism). In the Philebus, Plato, although he regards pleasure's detractors with a sense of satisfaction, further adjusts the transcendentalism of the Phaedo. He is somewhat reluctantly compelled to admit that some pleasures, specifically those without prior pains, deserve a place in the hierarchy of goods.
There have been many reasons why not only Plato but mankind in general have been unwilling to acknowledge that 'pleasure is the chief good.' Either they have heard a voice calling to them out of another world; or the life and example of some great teacher has cast their thoughts of right and wrong in another mould; or the word 'pleasure' has been associated in their mind with merely animal enjoyment. They could not believe that what they were always striving to overcome, and the power or principle in them which overcame, were of the same nature. The pleasure of doing good to others and of bodily self-indulgence, the pleasures of intellect and the pleasures of sense, are so different:—Why then should they be called by a common name? Or, if the equivocal or metaphorical use of the word is justified by custom (like the use of other words which at first referred only to the body, and then by a figure have been transferred to the mind), still, why should we make an ambiguous word the corner-stone of moral philosophy? To the higher thinker the Utilitarian or hedonist mode of speaking has been at variance with religion and with any higher conception both of politics and of morals. It has not satisfied their imagination; it has offended their taste. To elevate pleasure, 'the most fleeting of all things,' into a general idea seems to such men a contradiction. They do not desire to bring down their theory to the level of their practice. The simplicity of the 'greatest happiness' principle has been acceptable to philosophers, but the better part of the world has been slow to receive it.
There are many reasons why not only Plato but humanity as a whole has been reluctant to accept that 'pleasure is the highest good.' They might have felt a calling from another realm; the life and teachings of some great leader may have reshaped their views on right and wrong; or they may associate the term 'pleasure' only with basic animal enjoyment. They struggle to reconcile the idea that what they constantly try to resist and the force within them that pushes against it have the same essence. The joy of helping others and the pleasure of self-indulgence, the joys of intellect and physical pleasure are so distinct:—So why should we use the same term for all of them? Or, even if the ambiguous or metaphorical use of the word is accepted by tradition (similar to other terms that originally referred only to the physical body but have since been extended to the mind), why make a vague word the foundation of moral philosophy? For more enlightened thinkers, the Utilitarian or hedonistic way of thinking feels incompatible with religion and a higher understanding of politics and ethics. It hasn't satisfied their imagination or their taste. Elevating pleasure, 'the most fleeting of all things,' into a universal concept seems contradictory to them. They don't want to lower their theory to match their practice. The straightforward idea of the 'greatest happiness' principle has been appealing to philosophers, but the broader society has been slow to accept it.
Before proceeding, we may make a few admissions which will narrow the field of dispute; and we may as well leave behind a few prejudices, which intelligent opponents of Utilitarianism have by this time 'agreed to discard'. We admit that Utility is coextensive with right, and that no action can be right which does not tend to the happiness of mankind; we acknowledge that a large class of actions are made right or wrong by their consequences only; we say further that mankind are not too mindful, but that they are far too regardless of consequences, and that they need to have the doctrine of utility habitually inculcated on them. We recognize the value of a principle which can supply a connecting link between Ethics and Politics, and under which all human actions are or may be included. The desire to promote happiness is no mean preference of expediency to right, but one of the highest and noblest motives by which human nature can be animated. Neither in referring actions to the test of utility have we to make a laborious calculation, any more than in trying them by other standards of morals. For long ago they have been classified sufficiently for all practical purposes by the thinker, by the legislator, by the opinion of the world. Whatever may be the hypothesis on which they are explained, or which in doubtful cases may be applied to the regulation of them, we are very rarely, if ever, called upon at the moment of performing them to determine their effect upon the happiness of mankind.
Before moving on, we should acknowledge a few points that will help clarify the discussion, and it’s best to set aside some biases that knowledgeable critics of Utilitarianism have long agreed to let go. We accept that Utility is the same as right, and that no action can be considered right unless it contributes to the happiness of people; we recognize that many actions are judged as right or wrong based solely on their outcomes; we also assert that people are not too conscious of consequences, but rather, they often ignore them, and they need to be regularly reminded of the principle of utility. We value a principle that connects Ethics and Politics, and under which all human actions can be categorized. The desire to promote happiness isn’t just a simple preference for expediency over right; it’s one of the highest and most noble motivations driving human nature. When we test actions against the standard of utility, we don’t need to engage in complicated calculations any more than we do when assessing them by other moral standards. Long ago, thinkers, lawmakers, and public opinion have classified them sufficiently for practical purposes. Regardless of the theory used to explain or regulate them in uncertain situations, we are rarely, if ever, faced with the need to evaluate their impact on the happiness of mankind at the moment we perform them.
There is a theory which has been contrasted with Utility by Paley and others—the theory of a moral sense: Are our ideas of right and wrong innate or derived from experience? This, perhaps, is another of those speculations which intelligent men might 'agree to discard.' For it has been worn threadbare; and either alternative is equally consistent with a transcendental or with an eudaemonistic system of ethics, with a greatest happiness principle or with Kant's law of duty. Yet to avoid misconception, what appears to be the truth about the origin of our moral ideas may be shortly summed up as follows:—To each of us individually our moral ideas come first of all in childhood through the medium of education, from parents and teachers, assisted by the unconscious influence of language; they are impressed upon a mind which at first is like a waxen tablet, adapted to receive them; but they soon become fixed or set, and in after life are strengthened, or perhaps weakened by the force of public opinion. They may be corrected and enlarged by experience, they may be reasoned about, they may be brought home to us by the circumstances of our lives, they may be intensified by imagination, by reflection, by a course of action likely to confirm them. Under the influence of religious feeling or by an effort of thought, any one beginning with the ordinary rules of morality may create out of them for himself ideals of holiness and virtue. They slumber in the minds of most men, yet in all of us there remains some tincture of affection, some desire of good, some sense of truth, some fear of the law. Of some such state or process each individual is conscious in himself, and if he compares his own experience with that of others he will find the witness of their consciences to coincide with that of his own. All of us have entered into an inheritance which we have the power of appropriating and making use of. No great effort of mind is required on our part; we learn morals, as we learn to talk, instinctively, from conversing with others, in an enlightened age, in a civilized country, in a good home. A well-educated child of ten years old already knows the essentials of morals: 'Thou shalt not steal,' 'thou shalt speak the truth,' 'thou shalt love thy parents,' 'thou shalt fear God.' What more does he want?
There’s a theory that contrasts with Utility, proposed by Paley and others—the theory of a moral sense: Are our concepts of right and wrong innate or learned from experience? This might be one of those discussions that thoughtful people could 'agree to set aside.' It’s been debated so much that either viewpoint can fit with a transcendental or eudaemonistic ethical system, aligning with the greatest happiness principle or with Kant's duty-based law. However, to clarify, what seems to be the truth about how we form our moral concepts can be summarized as follows: For each of us, our moral beliefs first develop during childhood through education from parents and teachers, along with the subtle influence of language; they are formed in a mind that’s initially like a blank slate, ready to accept them. But they quickly become stable, and as we grow, they can be reinforced or weakened by the power of public opinion. They can be adjusted and expanded through experience; we can reason about them, they can be shaped by our life circumstances, and they can be deepened by imagination, reflection, or actions that confirm them. With the influence of religious feelings or thoughtful effort, anyone starting with standard moral guidelines can develop their own ideals of holiness and virtue. These ideals might lie dormant in most people’s minds, but there’s always some trace of affection, a desire for good, a sense of truth, and a fear of the law in all of us. Each person is aware of some state or process within themselves, and if they compare their experiences with others, they will find that the consciences of those around them align with their own. We all inherit moral values that we can adopt and use. It doesn’t take a huge mental effort on our part; we learn morals just as we learn to speak, instinctively picking them up from conversations with others, especially in a progressive age, in a civilized country, and in a supportive home. A well-educated ten-year-old already knows the basics of morality: ‘Don’t steal,’ ‘Tell the truth,’ ‘Love your parents,’ ‘Fear God.’ What else do they need?
But whence comes this common inheritance or stock of moral ideas? Their beginning, like all other beginnings of human things, is obscure, and is the least important part of them. Imagine, if you will, that Society originated in the herding of brutes, in their parental instincts, in their rude attempts at self-preservation:—Man is not man in that he resembles, but in that he differs from them. We must pass into another cycle of existence, before we can discover in him by any evidence accessible to us even the germs of our moral ideas. In the history of the world, which viewed from within is the history of the human mind, they have been slowly created by religion, by poetry, by law, having their foundation in the natural affections and in the necessity of some degree of truth and justice in a social state; they have been deepened and enlarged by the efforts of great thinkers who have idealized and connected them—by the lives of saints and prophets who have taught and exemplified them. The schools of ancient philosophy which seem so far from us—Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, the Epicureans, and a few modern teachers, such as Kant and Bentham, have each of them supplied 'moments' of thought to the world. The life of Christ has embodied a divine love, wisdom, patience, reasonableness. For his image, however imperfectly handed down to us, the modern world has received a standard more perfect in idea than the societies of ancient times, but also further removed from practice. For there is certainly a greater interval between the theory and practice of Christians than between the theory and practice of the Greeks and Romans; the ideal is more above us, and the aspiration after good has often lent a strange power to evil. And sometimes, as at the Reformation, or French Revolution, when the upper classes of a so-called Christian country have become corrupted by priestcraft, by casuistry, by licentiousness, by despotism, the lower have risen up and re-asserted the natural sense of religion and right.
But where does this shared foundation of moral ideas come from? Their origin, like all beginnings of human things, is unclear and is the least significant part of them. Imagine that society started with the herding of animals, driven by their parenting instincts and their basic attempts at survival:—Man is defined not by what he shares with them, but by what sets him apart. We need to enter another phase of existence to find, through evidence available to us, even the beginnings of our moral ideas within him. In the story of the world, which, when viewed internally, is the story of the human mind, these ideas have been slowly formed through religion, poetry, and law, based on natural feelings and the need for some level of truth and justice in a social context; they have been deepened and expanded by great thinkers who have idealized and interconnected them, as well as by saints and prophets who have taught and exemplified them. The ancient philosophical schools, which may seem distant from us—Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, the Epicureans, along with a few modern thinkers like Kant and Bentham—have each contributed 'moments' of thought to the world. The life of Christ represents divine love, wisdom, patience, and reason. Although his image has been imperfectly transmitted to us, the modern world has adopted a standard that is more ideal than that of ancient societies, yet also more disconnected from real life. There is indeed a greater gap between the theory and practice of Christians than between the theory and practice of the Greeks and Romans; the ideal is further from us, and the pursuit of good has often oddly empowered evil. Sometimes, as during the Reformation or the French Revolution, when the upper classes of a so-called Christian nation have been corrupted by priestcraft, casuistry, licentiousness, and despotism, the lower classes have risen up and reaffirmed the natural sense of religion and justice.
We may further remark that our moral ideas, as the world grows older, perhaps as we grow older ourselves, unless they have been undermined in us by false philosophy or the practice of mental analysis, or infected by the corruption of society or by some moral disorder in the individual, are constantly assuming a more natural and necessary character. The habit of the mind, the opinion of the world, familiarizes them to us; and they take more and more the form of immediate intuition. The moral sense comes last and not first in the order of their development, and is the instinct which we have inherited or acquired, not the nobler effort of reflection which created them and which keeps them alive. We do not stop to reason about common honesty. Whenever we are not blinded by self-deceit, as for example in judging the actions of others, we have no hesitation in determining what is right and wrong. The principles of morality, when not at variance with some desire or worldly interest of our own, or with the opinion of the public, are hardly perceived by us; but in the conflict of reason and passion they assert their authority and are not overcome without remorse.
We can also note that our moral beliefs, as the world ages and maybe as we grow older too, unless they’ve been undermined by misleading philosophy or the habit of overthinking, or tainted by societal corruption or personal moral failings, are consistently becoming more natural and essential. The way we think and what society believes make these ideas more familiar to us, and they increasingly feel like immediate insights. Our moral sense develops last, not first, and it’s an instinct we’ve either inherited or gained, rather than the higher effort of thought that formed them and keeps them relevant. We don’t pause to rationalize about basic honesty. Whenever we’re not blinded by self-deception, like when we evaluate the actions of others, we have no trouble figuring out what’s right and what’s wrong. The principles of morality, unless they clash with our own desires or interests, or with public opinion, often go unnoticed; but when reason and passion collide, these principles assert their power and we can’t ignore them without feeling guilty.
Such is a brief outline of the history of our moral ideas. We have to distinguish, first of all, the manner in which they have grown up in the world from the manner in which they have been communicated to each of us. We may represent them to ourselves as flowing out of the boundless ocean of language and thought in little rills, which convey them to the heart and brain of each individual. But neither must we confound the theories or aspects of morality with the origin of our moral ideas. These are not the roots or 'origines' of morals, but the latest efforts of reflection, the lights in which the whole moral world has been regarded by different thinkers and successive generations of men. If we ask: Which of these many theories is the true one? we may answer: All of them—moral sense, innate ideas, a priori, a posteriori notions, the philosophy of experience, the philosophy of intuition—all of them have added something to our conception of Ethics; no one of them is the whole truth. But to decide how far our ideas of morality are derived from one source or another; to determine what history, what philosophy has contributed to them; to distinguish the original, simple elements from the manifold and complex applications of them, would be a long enquiry too far removed from the question which we are now pursuing.
Here's a brief overview of the history of our moral ideas. First, we need to differentiate how these ideas have developed in the world from how they have been conveyed to each of us. We can think of them as flowing from the vast ocean of language and thought in streams that carry them to the hearts and minds of individuals. However, we shouldn’t confuse the theories or aspects of morality with the origins of our moral ideas. These aren't the roots or 'origins' of morals, but rather the most recent reflections and perspectives that have shaped how different thinkers and generations view the entire moral landscape. If we ask: Which of these many theories is correct? The answer is: All of them—moral sense, innate ideas, a priori and a posteriori concepts, the philosophy of experience, the philosophy of intuition—each has contributed to our understanding of Ethics; none of them represents the complete truth. However, determining how much our ideas of morality come from one source or another, what history and philosophy have contributed to them, and distinguishing the original, straightforward elements from their various and complex applications would be a lengthy inquiry too far removed from the question we are currently addressing.
Bearing in mind the distinction which we have been seeking to establish between our earliest and our most mature ideas of morality, we may now proceed to state the theory of Utility, not exactly in the words, but in the spirit of one of its ablest and most moderate supporters (Mill's Utilitarianism):—'That which alone makes actions either right or desirable is their utility, or tendency to promote the happiness of mankind, or, in other words, to increase the sum of pleasure in the world. But all pleasures are not the same: they differ in quality as well as in quantity, and the pleasure which is superior in quality is incommensurable with the inferior. Neither is the pleasure or happiness, which we seek, our own pleasure, but that of others,—of our family, of our country, of mankind. The desire of this, and even the sacrifice of our own interest to that of other men, may become a passion to a rightly educated nature. The Utilitarian finds a place in his system for this virtue and for every other.'
Keeping in mind the difference we're trying to highlight between our earliest and our most developed ideas of morality, we can now outline the theory of Utility, not necessarily quoting directly, but reflecting the essence of one of its most thoughtful and moderate advocates (Mill's Utilitarianism):—'What makes actions right or desirable is their utility, or how they contribute to the happiness of humanity, or, in simpler terms, to increase the total amount of pleasure in the world. However, not all pleasures are equal: they vary in quality as well as in quantity, and higher-quality pleasure is not comparable to lower-quality pleasure. Also, the pleasure or happiness we seek is not just about our own enjoyment, but that of others—our family, our country, and all of humanity. The desire for this, and even the willingness to put aside our own interests for the sake of others, can become a driving passion for a well-educated person. The Utilitarian incorporates this virtue and every other into their system.'
Good or happiness or pleasure is thus regarded as the true and only end of human life. To this all our desires will be found to tend, and in accordance with this all the virtues, including justice, may be explained. Admitting that men rest for a time in inferior ends, and do not cast their eyes beyond them, these ends are really dependent on the greater end of happiness, and would not be pursued, unless in general they had been found to lead to it. The existence of such an end is proved, as in Aristotle's time, so in our own, by the universal fact that men desire it. The obligation to promote it is based upon the social nature of man; this sense of duty is shared by all of us in some degree, and is capable of being greatly fostered and strengthened. So far from being inconsistent with religion, the greatest happiness principle is in the highest degree agreeable to it. For what can be more reasonable than that God should will the happiness of all his creatures? and in working out their happiness we may be said to be 'working together with him.' Nor is it inconceivable that a new enthusiasm of the future, far stronger than any old religion, may be based upon such a conception.
Goodness, happiness, or pleasure is seen as the ultimate goal of human life. All our desires aim toward this, and all virtues, including justice, can be understood in relation to it. While it's true that people sometimes settle for lesser goals and don’t look beyond them, these lesser goals are still dependent on the larger goal of happiness, and they wouldn’t be pursued unless they generally lead to it. The existence of such a goal is evident, just as it was in Aristotle's time, by the fact that people universally desire it. Our responsibility to promote this happiness is rooted in our social nature; this sense of duty is shared by all of us to some extent and can be significantly nurtured and strengthened. Far from being at odds with religion, the principle of maximizing happiness aligns closely with it. After all, what could be more logical than for God to desire the happiness of all his creations? In striving for their happiness, we could be seen as 'working together with him.' It’s also possible that a new passion for the future, far more powerful than any old religion, could be founded on this idea.
But then for the familiar phrase of the 'greatest happiness principle,' it seems as if we ought now to read 'the noblest happiness principle,' 'the happiness of others principle'—the principle not of the greatest, but of the highest pleasure, pursued with no more regard to our own immediate interest than is required by the law of self-preservation. Transfer the thought of happiness to another life, dropping the external circumstances which form so large a part of our idea of happiness in this, and the meaning of the word becomes indistinguishable from holiness, harmony, wisdom, love. By the slight addition 'of others,' all the associations of the word are altered; we seem to have passed over from one theory of morals to the opposite. For allowing that the happiness of others is reflected on ourselves, and also that every man must live before he can do good to others, still the last limitation is a very trifling exception, and the happiness of another is very far from compensating for the loss of our own. According to Mr. Mill, he would best carry out the principle of utility who sacrificed his own pleasure most to that of his fellow-men. But if so, Hobbes and Butler, Shaftesbury and Hume, are not so far apart as they and their followers imagine. The thought of self and the thought of others are alike superseded in the more general notion of the happiness of mankind at large. But in this composite good, until society becomes perfected, the friend of man himself has generally the least share, and may be a great sufferer.
But when it comes to the familiar phrase "the greatest happiness principle," it seems we should now say "the noblest happiness principle" or "the happiness of others principle"—a principle focused not on the greatest, but on the highest pleasure, pursued with no more concern for our own immediate interests than what's necessary for self-preservation. If we shift the idea of happiness to another life, setting aside the external circumstances that play a large part in our idea of happiness here, the meaning of the word becomes indistinguishable from holiness, harmony, wisdom, and love. With the small addition of "of others," all the associations of the term change; it feels like we've shifted from one moral theory to the opposite. While it's true that the happiness of others reflects on ourselves and that each person must have their own life before they can benefit others, the last limitation is a minor exception, and another's happiness doesn't really compensate for the loss of our own. According to Mr. Mill, the best way to implement the principle of utility is to sacrifice one's own pleasure for the sake of others' happiness. But if that's the case, Hobbes and Butler, Shaftesbury and Hume, aren't as far apart as they and their followers think. The idea of self and the idea of others are both overshadowed by the broader notion of the happiness of humanity as a whole. However, in this collective good, until society reaches perfection, the advocate for humanity often has the smallest share and may suffer significantly.
And now what objection have we to urge against a system of moral philosophy so beneficent, so enlightened, so ideal, and at the same time so practical,—so Christian, as we may say without exaggeration,—and which has the further advantage of resting morality on a principle intelligible to all capacities? Have we not found that which Socrates and Plato 'grew old in seeking'? Are we not desirous of happiness, at any rate for ourselves and our friends, if not for all mankind? If, as is natural, we begin by thinking of ourselves first, we are easily led on to think of others; for we cannot help acknowledging that what is right for us is the right and inheritance of others. We feel the advantage of an abstract principle wide enough and strong enough to override all the particularisms of mankind; which acknowledges a universal good, truth, right; which is capable of inspiring men like a passion, and is the symbol of a cause for which they are ready to contend to their life's end.
And now what objection can we raise against a system of moral philosophy that is so beneficial, so enlightened, so ideal, and at the same time so practical—so Christian, as we can say without exaggeration—and which also has the advantage of grounding morality on a principle that everyone can understand? Have we not found what Socrates and Plato spent their lives searching for? Don't we desire happiness, at least for ourselves and our friends, if not for all humanity? If, as is natural, we start by thinking of ourselves first, we are easily led to think of others; after all, we can’t help but recognize that what is right for us is also right for others. We see the value of a broad and robust abstract principle that can overcome all the specific differences among people; one that acknowledges a universal good, truth, and right; which can inspire people like a passion, and serves as a symbol of a cause they are willing to fight for until the end of their days.
And if we test this principle by the lives of its professors, it would certainly appear inferior to none as a rule of action. From the days of Eudoxus (Arist. Ethics) and Epicurus to our own, the votaries of pleasure have gained belief for their principles by their practice. Two of the noblest and most disinterested men who have lived in this century, Bentham and J. S. Mill, whose lives were a long devotion to the service of their fellows, have been among the most enthusiastic supporters of utility; while among their contemporaries, some who were of a more mystical turn of mind, have ended rather in aspiration than in action, and have been found unequal to the duties of life. Looking back on them now that they are removed from the scene, we feel that mankind has been the better for them. The world was against them while they lived; but this is rather a reason for admiring than for depreciating them. Nor can any one doubt that the influence of their philosophy on politics—especially on foreign politics, on law, on social life, has been upon the whole beneficial. Nevertheless, they will never have justice done to them, for they do not agree either with the better feeling of the multitude or with the idealism of more refined thinkers. Without Bentham, a great word in the history of philosophy would have remained unspoken. Yet to this day it is rare to hear his name received with any mark of respect such as would be freely granted to the ambiguous memory of some father of the Church. The odium which attached to him when alive has not been removed by his death. For he shocked his contemporaries by egotism and want of taste; and this generation which has reaped the benefit of his labours has inherited the feeling of the last. He was before his own age, and is hardly remembered in this.
And if we evaluate this principle through the lives of its advocates, it definitely doesn’t seem inferior to any other rule of action. Since the times of Eudoxus (Arist. Ethics) and Epicurus to today, those who prioritize pleasure have proven their ideas through their actions. Two of the noblest and most selfless individuals of this century, Bentham and J. S. Mill, dedicated their lives to serving others and were among the most passionate supporters of utility; while some of their contemporaries, who leaned more toward mystical thinking, ended up aspiring rather than taking action and struggled with the responsibilities of life. Looking back on them now that they are gone, we recognize that humanity has benefitted from their contributions. The world was against them during their lives, but that just gives us more reason to admire them rather than criticize them. No one can question that their philosophy has positively influenced politics—especially foreign politics, law, and social life. However, they will never receive the credit they deserve because they don’t resonate with the general population’s feelings or the idealism of more sophisticated thinkers. Without Bentham, a significant concept in the history of philosophy would have remained unsaid. Yet even today, it's uncommon to hear his name acknowledged with the kind of respect given to the more ambiguous figures from the Church. The disdain he faced while alive hasn’t faded with his passing. He shocked his contemporaries with his self-centeredness and lack of refinement; and this generation, which has benefited from his work, carries the same sentiments as the previous one. He was ahead of his time and is hardly remembered in this one.
While acknowledging the benefits which the greatest happiness principle has conferred upon mankind, the time appears to have arrived, not for denying its claims, but for criticizing them and comparing them with other principles which equally claim to lie at the foundation of ethics. Any one who adds a general principle to knowledge has been a benefactor to the world. But there is a danger that, in his first enthusiasm, he may not recognize the proportions or limitations to which his truth is subjected; he does not see how far he has given birth to a truism, or how that which is a truth to him is a truism to the rest of the world; or may degenerate in the next generation. He believes that to be the whole which is only a part,—to be the necessary foundation which is really only a valuable aspect of the truth. The systems of all philosophers require the criticism of 'the morrow,' when the heat of imagination which forged them has cooled, and they are seen in the temperate light of day. All of them have contributed to enrich the mind of the civilized world; none of them occupy that supreme or exclusive place which their authors would have assigned to them.
While recognizing the advantages the greatest happiness principle has brought to humanity, it seems we’ve reached a time not to deny its claims, but to critique them and compare them with other principles that also claim to be fundamental to ethics. Anyone who adds a general principle to our understanding has done the world a service. However, there's a risk that in their initial excitement, they might overlook the scope or limits of their truth. They might not realize how much of what they see as a truth is actually a common saying to others or might become outdated in the next generation. They may believe they're seeing the whole picture when it’s really just a part—thinking it's an essential foundation when it’s actually just one valuable aspect of the truth. The ideas of all philosophers need to be revisited ‘tomorrow,’ once the fervor of imagination that created them has settled, allowing us to view them in the clear light of day. Each one has helped enrich the minds of the civilized world; none hold that ultimate or exclusive status their creators might have believed they deserved.
We may preface the criticism with a few preliminary remarks:—
We might start the critique with a few introductory comments:—
Mr. Mill, Mr. Austin, and others, in their eagerness to maintain the doctrine of utility, are fond of repeating that we are in a lamentable state of uncertainty about morals. While other branches of knowledge have made extraordinary progress, in moral philosophy we are supposed by them to be no better than children, and with few exceptions—that is to say, Bentham and his followers—to be no further advanced than men were in the age of Socrates and Plato, who, in their turn, are deemed to be as backward in ethics as they necessarily were in physics. But this, though often asserted, is recanted almost in a breath by the same writers who speak thus depreciatingly of our modern ethical philosophy. For they are the first to acknowledge that we have not now to begin classifying actions under the head of utility; they would not deny that about the general conceptions of morals there is a practical agreement. There is no more doubt that falsehood is wrong than that a stone falls to the ground, although the first does not admit of the same ocular proof as the second. There is no greater uncertainty about the duty of obedience to parents and to the law of the land than about the properties of triangles. Unless we are looking for a new moral world which has no marrying and giving in marriage, there is no greater disagreement in theory about the right relations of the sexes than about the composition of water. These and a few other simple principles, as they have endless applications in practice, so also may be developed in theory into counsels of perfection.
Mr. Mill, Mr. Austin, and others, in their eagerness to uphold the doctrine of utility, often claim that we are in a troubling state of uncertainty regarding morals. While other fields of knowledge have progressed remarkably, they suggest that in moral philosophy we are no better off than children, and with few exceptions—namely, Bentham and his followers—we have not advanced beyond where people were in the time of Socrates and Plato, who are seen as just as behind in ethics as they were in physics. However, this assertion, while frequently made, is almost immediately contradicted by the same writers who speak so dismissively of our modern ethical philosophy. They are the first to admit that we no longer need to start classifying actions based on utility; they wouldn’t deny that there is a practical agreement about the general ideas of ethics. There’s no more doubt that lying is wrong than that a stone falls to the ground, even though the first can’t be proven as clearly as the second. There’s no more uncertainty about the duty of obeying parents and the laws of the land than there is about the properties of triangles. Unless we’re seeking a completely new moral framework with no concept of marriage, there’s no greater disagreement in theory about the right relationships between the sexes than there is about the composition of water. These and a few other simple principles, just as they have countless practical applications, can also be developed in theory into guidelines for perfection.
To what then is to be attributed this opinion which has been often entertained about the uncertainty of morals? Chiefly to this,—that philosophers have not always distinguished the theoretical and the casuistical uncertainty of morals from the practical certainty. There is an uncertainty about details,—whether, for example, under given circumstances such and such a moral principle is to be enforced, or whether in some cases there may not be a conflict of duties: these are the exceptions to the ordinary rules of morality, important, indeed, but not extending to the one thousandth or one ten-thousandth part of human actions. This is the domain of casuistry. Secondly, the aspects under which the most general principles of morals may be presented to us are many and various. The mind of man has been more than usually active in thinking about man. The conceptions of harmony, happiness, right, freedom, benevolence, self-love, have all of them seemed to some philosopher or other the truest and most comprehensive expression of morality. There is no difference, or at any rate no great difference, of opinion about the right and wrong of actions, but only about the general notion which furnishes the best explanation or gives the most comprehensive view of them. This, in the language of Kant, is the sphere of the metaphysic of ethics. But these two uncertainties at either end, en tois malista katholou and en tois kath ekasta, leave space enough for an intermediate principle which is practically certain.
What is responsible for the common belief about the uncertainty of morals? Mainly this: philosophers have not always made a clear distinction between the theoretical and situational uncertainties of morals and the practical certainty. There’s some uncertainty about specifics—like whether a particular moral principle should be applied in certain situations or if there might be conflicting duties in some cases. These are exceptions to the general rules of morality, which are indeed important but don't apply to even a tiny fraction of human actions. This falls under the area of casuistry. Additionally, the ways in which the most fundamental moral principles can be understood are numerous and varied. People have been particularly engaged in reflecting on human nature. Ideas of harmony, happiness, rightness, freedom, kindness, and self-interest have all been viewed by different philosophers as the most accurate and comprehensive expressions of morality. There isn’t much disagreement about what actions are right or wrong, but rather about the overarching concept that best explains or encompasses them. In Kant's terms, this is the realm of the metaphysics of ethics. However, these two uncertainties at either end, in the broadest sense and in specific instances, leave plenty of room for a middle principle that is practically certain.
The rule of human life is not dependent on the theories of philosophers: we know what our duties are for the most part before we speculate about them. And the use of speculation is not to teach us what we already know, but to inspire in our minds an interest about morals in general, to strengthen our conception of the virtues by showing that they confirm one another, to prove to us, as Socrates would have said, that they are not many, but one. There is the same kind of pleasure and use in reducing morals, as in reducing physics, to a few very simple truths. And not unfrequently the more general principle may correct prejudices and misconceptions, and enable us to regard our fellow-men in a larger and more generous spirit.
The rules for living don't rely on philosophers' theories: we mostly know our duties before we even think about them. Speculation isn't meant to teach us what we already understand, but to spark our interest in morals as a whole, to strengthen our understanding of virtues by showing how they support each other, and to demonstrate, as Socrates would have said, that they are not separate, but one. There’s a similar joy and benefit in simplifying morals, just like there is in boiling down physics to a few basic truths. Often, a broader principle can challenge our biases and misunderstandings, allowing us to see others with a more open and generous mindset.
The two qualities which seem to be most required in first principles of ethics are, (1) that they should afford a real explanation of the facts, (2) that they should inspire the mind,—should harmonize, strengthen, settle us. We can hardly estimate the influence which a simple principle such as 'Act so as to promote the happiness of mankind,' or 'Act so that the rule on which thou actest may be adopted as a law by all rational beings,' may exercise on the mind of an individual. They will often seem to open a new world to him, like the religious conceptions of faith or the spirit of God. The difficulties of ethics disappear when we do not suffer ourselves to be distracted between different points of view. But to maintain their hold on us, the general principles must also be psychologically true—they must agree with our experience, they must accord with the habits of our minds.
The two qualities that seem most necessary in the foundational aspects of ethics are: (1) that they provide a genuine explanation of the facts, and (2) that they inspire us—help us find harmony, strength, and stability. We can hardly measure the impact that a simple principle like "Act to promote the happiness of humanity," or "Act in a way that could be accepted as a law by all rational beings," can have on an individual's mind. These principles often seem to open up a new world for someone, much like the religious beliefs in faith or the spirit of God. The challenges of ethics fade away when we don't let ourselves be sidetracked by differing perspectives. However, to remain influential, these general principles also need to be psychologically valid—they should resonate with our experiences and align with the way our minds work.
When we are told that actions are right or wrong only in so far as they tend towards happiness, we naturally ask what is meant by 'happiness.' For the term in the common use of language is only to a certain extent commensurate with moral good and evil. We should hardly say that a good man could be utterly miserable (Arist. Ethics), or place a bad man in the first rank of happiness. But yet, from various circumstances, the measure of a man's happiness may be out of all proportion to his desert. And if we insist on calling the good man alone happy, we shall be using the term in some new and transcendental sense, as synonymous with well-being. We have already seen that happiness includes the happiness of others as well as our own; we must now comprehend unconscious as well as conscious happiness under the same word. There is no harm in this extension of the meaning, but a word which admits of such an extension can hardly be made the basis of a philosophical system. The exactness which is required in philosophy will not allow us to comprehend under the same term two ideas so different as the subjective feeling of pleasure or happiness and the objective reality of a state which receives our moral approval.
When we're told that actions are right or wrong only based on whether they lead to happiness, we naturally want to know what 'happiness' actually means. The term, in everyday language, only somewhat aligns with moral good and evil. We wouldn't really say that a good person could be completely unhappy or that a bad person belongs at the top of the happiness scale. However, due to various factors, a person's happiness might not accurately reflect what they deserve. If we insist on labeling only the good person as happy, we’ll be using the term in a new and elevated way, equating it with well-being. We've already noted that happiness includes not just our own happiness but also that of others; we now need to include both conscious and unconscious happiness under the same term. While there's nothing wrong with this broader interpretation, a word that can be so widely interpreted can hardly serve as the foundation for a philosophical system. The precision needed in philosophy won't allow us to group together two such different concepts as the subjective feeling of pleasure or happiness and the objective reality of a state that receives our moral approval.
Like Protarchus in the Philebus, we can give no answer to the question, 'What is that common quality which in all states of human life we call happiness? which includes the lower and the higher kind of happiness, and is the aim of the noblest, as well as of the meanest of mankind?' If we say 'Not pleasure, not virtue, not wisdom, nor yet any quality which we can abstract from these'—what then? After seeming to hover for a time on the verge of a great truth, we have gained only a truism.
Like Protarchus in the Philebus, we cannot answer the question, 'What is the common quality that we refer to as happiness in all aspects of human life? This includes both lower and higher forms of happiness and is the goal for both the noblest and the most ordinary people.' If we say, 'It's not pleasure, not virtue, not wisdom, and not any quality we can separate from these'—then what? After appearing to be on the brink of a profound truth, we are left with only a truism.
Let us ask the question in another form. What is that which constitutes happiness, over and above the several ingredients of health, wealth, pleasure, virtue, knowledge, which are included under it? Perhaps we answer, 'The subjective feeling of them.' But this is very far from being coextensive with right. Or we may reply that happiness is the whole of which the above-mentioned are the parts. Still the question recurs, 'In what does the whole differ from all the parts?' And if we are unable to distinguish them, happiness will be the mere aggregate of the goods of life.
Let’s rephrase the question. What makes up happiness besides the different parts like health, wealth, pleasure, virtue, and knowledge? We might say, 'It's the personal feeling of these things.' But that doesn't fully cover what’s right. Or we could say happiness is the complete picture that includes those parts. Yet the question remains: 'How does the whole differ from the individual parts?' If we can't tell them apart, happiness will just be a collection of life’s good things.
Again, while admitting that in all right action there is an element of happiness, we cannot help seeing that the utilitarian theory supplies a much easier explanation of some virtues than of others. Of many patriotic or benevolent actions we can give a straightforward account by their tendency to promote happiness. For the explanation of justice, on the other hand, we have to go a long way round. No man is indignant with a thief because he has not promoted the greatest happiness of the greatest number, but because he has done him a wrong. There is an immeasurable interval between a crime against property or life, and the omission of an act of charity or benevolence. Yet of this interval the utilitarian theory takes no cognizance. The greatest happiness principle strengthens our sense of positive duties towards others, but weakens our recognition of their rights. To promote in every way possible the happiness of others may be a counsel of perfection, but hardly seems to offer any ground for a theory of obligation. For admitting that our ideas of obligation are partly derived from religion and custom, yet they seem also to contain other essential elements which cannot be explained by the tendency of actions to promote happiness. Whence comes the necessity of them? Why are some actions rather than others which equally tend to the happiness of mankind imposed upon us with the authority of law? 'You ought' and 'you had better' are fundamental distinctions in human thought; and having such distinctions, why should we seek to efface and unsettle them?
Again, while acknowledging that there's a sense of happiness in all right actions, we can't help but notice that the utilitarian theory provides a much simpler explanation for some virtues than for others. For many patriotic or charitable actions, we can easily explain them by their ability to promote happiness. However, when it comes to justice, we have to take a more complicated route. No one feels outraged by a thief because he hasn't maximized happiness for the majority, but because he has committed a wrongdoing. There's a huge gap between a crime against property or life and the failure to perform an act of charity or kindness. Yet, the utilitarian theory doesn't recognize this gap. The principle of maximizing happiness enhances our sense of positive duties towards others, but it dilutes our acknowledgment of their rights. Striving to promote everyone's happiness could be seen as a noble goal, but it hardly seems to lay the foundation for a theory of obligation. While we accept that our sense of obligation is partly shaped by religion and social norms, it also appears to include other essential elements that can't be explained just by how actions lead to happiness. Where does the necessity of obligations come from? Why are certain actions, instead of others that also contribute to human happiness, mandated by law? "You ought to" and "you should" are core distinctions in human thinking; given these distinctions, why would we want to erase or confuse them?
Bentham and Mr. Mill are earnest in maintaining that happiness includes the happiness of others as well as of ourselves. But what two notions can be more opposed in many cases than these? Granting that in a perfect state of the world my own happiness and that of all other men would coincide, in the imperfect state they often diverge, and I cannot truly bridge over the difficulty by saying that men will always find pleasure in sacrificing themselves or in suffering for others. Upon the greatest happiness principle it is admitted that I am to have a share, and in consistency I should pursue my own happiness as impartially as that of my neighbour. But who can decide what proportion should be mine and what his, except on the principle that I am most likely to be deceived in my own favour, and had therefore better give the larger share, if not all, to him?
Bentham and Mr. Mill firmly believe that happiness includes not just our own joy but also the happiness of others. However, how can these ideas be more opposed in many situations? Even if in a perfect world my happiness and that of everyone else would align, in our imperfect reality, they often don't, and I can’t simply resolve this issue by claiming that people will always enjoy sacrificing themselves or suffering for others. According to the greatest happiness principle, I am supposed to have a share, and I should seek my happiness just as fairly as my neighbor’s. But who can figure out what portion is mine and what portion is his, except on the basis that I am most likely to be misled in my own favor and should therefore give a larger share, if not everything, to him?
Further, it is admitted that utility and right coincide, not in particular instances, but in classes of actions. But is it not distracting to the conscience of a man to be told that in the particular case they are opposed? Happiness is said to be the ground of moral obligation, yet he must not do what clearly conduces to his own happiness if it is at variance with the good of the whole. Nay, further, he will be taught that when utility and right are in apparent conflict any amount of utility does not alter by a hair's-breadth the morality of actions, which cannot be allowed to deviate from established law or usage; and that the non-detection of an immoral act, say of telling a lie, which may often make the greatest difference in the consequences, not only to himself, but to all the world, makes none whatever in the act itself.
Additionally, it's acknowledged that utility and right align, not in individual cases, but across groups of actions. However, isn't it confusing for someone to hear that in a specific situation they conflict? Happiness is often considered the basis of moral obligation, yet one shouldn't pursue what clearly leads to their own happiness if it goes against the greater good. Moreover, they will be taught that when utility and right seem to clash, any amount of utility doesn't change the morality of actions, which must adhere to established laws and customs; and that the non-detection of an immoral act, like lying, which can greatly impact the outcomes not only for oneself but for everyone, has no bearing on the morality of the act itself.
Again, if we are concerned not with particular actions but with classes of actions, is the tendency of actions to happiness a principle upon which we can classify them? There is a universal law which imperatively declares certain acts to be right or wrong:—can there be any universality in the law which measures actions by their tendencies towards happiness? For an act which is the cause of happiness to one person may be the cause of unhappiness to another; or an act which if performed by one person may increase the happiness of mankind may have the opposite effect if performed by another. Right can never be wrong, or wrong right, that there are no actions which tend to the happiness of mankind which may not under other circumstances tend to their unhappiness. Unless we say not only that all right actions tend to happiness, but that they tend to happiness in the same degree in which they are right (and in that case the word 'right' is plainer), we weaken the absoluteness of our moral standard; we reduce differences in kind to differences in degree; we obliterate the stamp which the authority of ages has set upon vice and crime.
Again, if we're focused not on specific actions but on types of actions, can we use the tendency of actions to lead to happiness as a principle for classification? There's a universal law that clearly states which acts are right or wrong: can there be any universality in the law that measures actions based on their tendency toward happiness? An act that brings happiness to one person might cause unhappiness to another; or an act that increases overall happiness when done by one person might have the opposite effect when done by someone else. Right can never be wrong, or wrong right, because no action that tends to the happiness of mankind can’t, under different circumstances, tend to their unhappiness. Unless we claim not only that all right actions lead to happiness but that they lead to happiness in the same degree that they are considered right (and in that case, the term 'right' is clearer), we weaken the absolute nature of our moral standard; we turn distinct differences into merely differences in degree; we erase the strong judgment that history has placed on vice and crime.
Once more: turning from theory to practice we feel the importance of retaining the received distinctions of morality. Words such as truth, justice, honesty, virtue, love, have a simple meaning; they have become sacred to us,—'the word of God' written on the human heart: to no other words can the same associations be attached. We cannot explain them adequately on principles of utility; in attempting to do so we rob them of their true character. We give them a meaning often paradoxical and distorted, and generally weaker than their signification in common language. And as words influence men's thoughts, we fear that the hold of morality may also be weakened, and the sense of duty impaired, if virtue and vice are explained only as the qualities which do or do not contribute to the pleasure of the world. In that very expression we seem to detect a false ring, for pleasure is individual not universal; we speak of eternal and immutable justice, but not of eternal and immutable pleasure; nor by any refinement can we avoid some taint of bodily sense adhering to the meaning of the word.
Once again, switching from theory to practice, we recognize how important it is to keep the accepted distinctions of morality. Words like truth, justice, honesty, virtue, and love have clear meanings; they've become sacred to us—'the word of God' inscribed on the human heart: no other words carry the same associations. We can't explain them properly using just utility; doing so strips them of their true essence. We end up giving them meanings that are often contradictory and warped, and generally weaker than their significance in everyday language. Since words shape people's thoughts, we're concerned that the foundation of morality might weaken and the sense of duty might diminish if we define virtue and vice solely as qualities that do or do not contribute to the world's pleasure. In that very phrase, we sense something off, because pleasure is personal, not universal; we discuss eternal and unchanging justice, but never eternal and unchanging pleasure; and no matter how we try to refine it, there's always a hint of physical sensation tied to the meaning of the word.
Again: the higher the view which men take of life, the more they lose sight of their own pleasure or interest. True religion is not working for a reward only, but is ready to work equally without a reward. It is not 'doing the will of God for the sake of eternal happiness,' but doing the will of God because it is best, whether rewarded or unrewarded. And this applies to others as well as to ourselves. For he who sacrifices himself for the good of others, does not sacrifice himself that they may be saved from the persecution which he endures for their sakes, but rather that they in their turn may be able to undergo similar sufferings, and like him stand fast in the truth. To promote their happiness is not his first object, but to elevate their moral nature. Both in his own case and that of others there may be happiness in the distance, but if there were no happiness he would equally act as he does. We are speaking of the highest and noblest natures; and a passing thought naturally arises in our minds, 'Whether that can be the first principle of morals which is hardly regarded in their own case by the greatest benefactors of mankind?'
Again: the higher the perspective people have on life, the more they lose focus on their own pleasure or interests. True religion isn’t just about working for a reward; it’s willing to work just as hard without one. It’s not about "doing God's will for the sake of eternal happiness," but about doing it because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of any rewards. This applies to others as much as it does to ourselves. The person who sacrifices for the good of others doesn’t do so to save them from the persecution he faces, but rather so that they can endure similar hardships and stand firm in the truth like he does. His primary goal isn’t to make them happy, but to uplift their moral character. In both his own life and others’, happiness might be a possibility in the future, but if happiness didn’t exist, he would still act the same way. We’re talking about the highest and noblest individuals; and a thought does come to mind: "Can the first principle of morals really be something that’s not even considered by the greatest benefactors of humanity?"
The admissions that pleasures differ in kind, and that actions are already classified; the acknowledgment that happiness includes the happiness of others, as well as of ourselves; the confusion (not made by Aristotle) between conscious and unconscious happiness, or between happiness the energy and happiness the result of the energy, introduce uncertainty and inconsistency into the whole enquiry. We reason readily and cheerfully from a greatest happiness principle. But we find that utilitarians do not agree among themselves about the meaning of the word. Still less can they impart to others a common conception or conviction of the nature of happiness. The meaning of the word is always insensibly slipping away from us, into pleasure, out of pleasure, now appearing as the motive, now as the test of actions, and sometimes varying in successive sentences. And as in a mathematical demonstration an error in the original number disturbs the whole calculation which follows, this fundamental uncertainty about the word vitiates all the applications of it. Must we not admit that a notion so uncertain in meaning, so void of content, so at variance with common language and opinion, does not comply adequately with either of our two requirements? It can neither strike the imaginative faculty, nor give an explanation of phenomena which is in accordance with our individual experience. It is indefinite; it supplies only a partial account of human actions: it is one among many theories of philosophers. It may be compared with other notions, such as the chief good of Plato, which may be best expressed to us under the form of a harmony, or with Kant's obedience to law, which may be summed up under the word 'duty,' or with the Stoical 'Follow nature,' and seems to have no advantage over them. All of these present a certain aspect of moral truth. None of them are, or indeed profess to be, the only principle of morals.
The acknowledgment that pleasures are different in nature and that actions are already categorized; the realization that happiness includes not only our own happiness but also that of others; the confusion (not caused by Aristotle) between conscious and unconscious happiness, or between happiness as an active pursuit and happiness as a consequence of that pursuit, creates uncertainty and inconsistency in the entire inquiry. We are quick and happy to reason from a greatest happiness principle. However, we find that utilitarians don't agree on what the term means. Even more challenging is their inability to convey a shared understanding or belief about the nature of happiness to others. The meaning of the term seems to constantly slip away from us, shifting into pleasure, out of pleasure, appearing as motivation at one moment and as a measure of actions at another, sometimes changing in different sentences. Just as a mistake in the initial number disrupts a mathematical proof, this fundamental uncertainty about the word undermines all its applications. Can we not accept that a concept so unclear in meaning, so lacking in substance, and so at odds with common language and opinion does not adequately meet either of our two needs? It fails to inspire the imagination and does not provide an explanation of phenomena that aligns with our personal experiences. It is vague; it offers only a partial view of human actions: it is merely one among many philosophical theories. It can be compared to other ideas, like Plato’s chief good, which might be best described as harmony, or Kant’s duty to the law, which can be summed up as 'duty,' or the Stoic idea of 'following nature,' and it doesn’t seem to have any advantage over them. All of these ideas present a certain perspective on moral truth. None of them claim to be, nor do they intend to be, the sole principle of morality.
And this brings us to speak of the most serious objection to the utilitarian system—its exclusiveness. There is no place for Kant or Hegel, for Plato and Aristotle alongside of it. They do not reject the greatest happiness principle, but it rejects them. Now the phenomena of moral action differ, and some are best explained upon one principle and some upon another: the virtue of justice seems to be naturally connected with one theory of morals, the virtues of temperance and benevolence with another. The characters of men also differ; and some are more attracted by one aspect of the truth, some by another. The firm stoical nature will conceive virtue under the conception of law, the philanthropist under that of doing good, the quietist under that of resignation, the enthusiast under that of faith or love. The upright man of the world will desire above all things that morality should be plain and fixed, and should use language in its ordinary sense. Persons of an imaginative temperament will generally be dissatisfied with the words 'utility' or 'pleasure': their principle of right is of a far higher character—what or where to be found they cannot always distinctly tell;—deduced from the laws of human nature, says one; resting on the will of God, says another; based upon some transcendental idea which animates more worlds than one, says a third:
And this brings us to the biggest criticism of the utilitarian approach—its exclusivity. There’s no room for Kant or Hegel, or for Plato and Aristotle alongside it. They don’t reject the principle of the greatest happiness, but it excludes them. The facts of moral actions vary, and some are better understood through one principle while others fit another: the virtue of justice seems to align naturally with one moral theory, while the virtues of temperance and kindness align with another. People’s characters also vary; some are drawn more to one aspect of truth and others to another. A strong, stoic person may see virtue as a matter of law, a philanthropist may see it as doing good, a quietist may view it as resignation, and an enthusiast may see it as faith or love. An honest person in the world will want morality to be clear and consistent, using language in its usual sense. Those with an imaginative temperament are often dissatisfied with terms like 'utility' or 'pleasure': their sense of right is of a much higher nature—though they may not always be able to clearly define what that is; one might say it’s derived from the laws of human nature, another might say it’s based on the will of God, and a third might say it’s grounded in some transcendent idea that inspires more than one world.
on nomoi prokeintai upsipodes, ouranian di aithera teknothentes.
on nomoi prokeintai upsipodes, ouranian di aithera teknothentes.
To satisfy an imaginative nature in any degree, the doctrine of utility must be so transfigured that it becomes altogether different and loses all simplicity.
To satisfy a creative mind to any extent, the idea of utility must be transformed to such a degree that it becomes entirely different and loses all its simplicity.
But why, since there are different characters among men, should we not allow them to envisage morality accordingly, and be thankful to the great men who have provided for all of us modes and instruments of thought? Would the world have been better if there had been no Stoics or Kantists, no Platonists or Cartesians? No more than if the other pole of moral philosophy had been excluded. All men have principles which are above their practice; they admit premises which, if carried to their conclusions, are a sufficient basis of morals. In asserting liberty of speculation we are not encouraging individuals to make right or wrong for themselves, but only conceding that they may choose the form under which they prefer to contemplate them. Nor do we say that one of these aspects is as true and good as another; but that they all of them, if they are not mere sophisms and illusions, define and bring into relief some part of the truth which would have been obscure without their light. Why should we endeavour to bind all men within the limits of a single metaphysical conception? The necessary imperfection of language seems to require that we should view the same truth under more than one aspect.
But why, since there are different personalities among people, should we not let them understand morality in their own ways and appreciate the great thinkers who have given us various methods and tools for thought? Would the world be a better place without Stoics or Kantians, without Platonists or Cartesians? Just as it wouldn't be better if the other side of moral philosophy had been excluded. Everyone has principles that go beyond their actions; they accept premises that, if fully explored, are a solid foundation for morals. By asserting the freedom of thought, we’re not encouraging people to define right or wrong for themselves; we’re simply acknowledging that they can choose how they want to think about these concepts. We’re not claiming that one perspective is more true or better than another; we’re saying that all of them, as long as they aren’t just fallacies or delusions, illuminate parts of the truth that would otherwise be hidden. Why should we try to confine everyone to a single metaphysical idea? The inherent limitations of language seem to suggest that we should view the same truth from multiple angles.
We are living in the second age of utilitarianism, when the charm of novelty and the fervour of the first disciples has passed away. The doctrine is no longer stated in the forcible paradoxical manner of Bentham, but has to be adapted to meet objections; its corners are rubbed off, and the meaning of its most characteristic expressions is softened. The array of the enemy melts away when we approach him. The greatest happiness of the greatest number was a great original idea when enunciated by Bentham, which leavened a generation and has left its mark on thought and civilization in all succeeding times. His grasp of it had the intensity of genius. In the spirit of an ancient philosopher he would have denied that pleasures differed in kind, or that by happiness he meant anything but pleasure. He would perhaps have revolted us by his thoroughness. The 'guardianship of his doctrine' has passed into other hands; and now we seem to see its weak points, its ambiguities, its want of exactness while assuming the highest exactness, its one-sidedness, its paradoxical explanation of several of the virtues. No philosophy has ever stood this criticism of the next generation, though the founders of all of them have imagined that they were built upon a rock. And the utilitarian system, like others, has yielded to the inevitable analysis. Even in the opinion of 'her admirers she has been terribly damaged' (Phil.), and is no longer the only moral philosophy, but one among many which have contributed in various degrees to the intellectual progress of mankind.
We are currently in the second era of utilitarianism, where the excitement of novelty and the passion of its earliest supporters have faded. The doctrine isn't expressed in the forceful and paradoxical style of Bentham anymore but has to be adjusted to address criticisms; its sharp edges have been smoothed out, and the meanings of its most defining terms have been softened. The opposition seems to weaken as we approach it. The idea that the greatest happiness for the greatest number was revolutionary when Bentham first presented it—it inspired a generation and has influenced thought and culture ever since. His understanding of it was intensely brilliant. Like an ancient philosopher, he would have argued that pleasures don't differ in type and that happiness was simply about pleasure. His thoroughness might have been off-putting. The 'ownership of his doctrine' has shifted to others; now we can see its weaknesses, ambiguities, its lack of precision while claiming the highest precision, its bias, and its paradoxical take on various virtues. No philosophy has ever withstood this scrutiny from later generations, even though the founders believed they were built on solid foundations. The utilitarian system, like others, has succumbed to inevitable analysis. Even among its supporters, it's been deemed 'terribly damaged' (Phil.), and it is no longer the sole moral philosophy but one of many that have contributed in different ways to humanity's intellectual growth.
But because the utilitarian philosophy can no longer claim 'the prize,' we must not refuse to acknowledge the great benefits conferred by it on the world. All philosophies are refuted in their turn, says the sceptic, and he looks forward to all future systems sharing the fate of the past. All philosophies remain, says the thinker; they have done a great work in their own day, and they supply posterity with aspects of the truth and with instruments of thought. Though they may be shorn of their glory, they retain their place in the organism of knowledge.
But since the utilitarian philosophy can no longer claim 'the prize,' we shouldn’t ignore the significant benefits it has brought to the world. The skeptic says that all philosophies will eventually be disproven, and he anticipates that future systems will meet the same fate as those before them. The thinker, however, insists that all philosophies persist; they have made valuable contributions in their time and provide future generations with perspectives on the truth and tools for thought. Even if they lose their prestige, they still have a role in the fabric of knowledge.
And still there remain many rules of morals which are better explained and more forcibly inculcated on the principle of utility than on any other. The question Will such and such an action promote the happiness of myself, my family, my country, the world? may check the rising feeling of pride or honour which would cause a quarrel, an estrangement, a war. 'How can I contribute to the greatest happiness of others?' is another form of the question which will be more attractive to the minds of many than a deduction of the duty of benevolence from a priori principles. In politics especially hardly any other argument can be allowed to have weight except the happiness of a people. All parties alike profess to aim at this, which though often used only as the disguise of self-interest has a great and real influence on the minds of statesmen. In religion, again, nothing can more tend to mitigate superstition than the belief that the good of man is also the will of God. This is an easy test to which the prejudices and superstitions of men may be brought:—whatever does not tend to the good of men is not of God. And the ideal of the greatest happiness of mankind, especially if believed to be the will of God, when compared with the actual fact, will be one of the strongest motives to do good to others.
And there are still many moral rules that are better understood and more powerfully instilled through the principle of utility than any other way. The question, “Will this action increase the happiness of myself, my family, my country, or the world?” can temper feelings of pride or honor that might lead to conflicts, estrangement, or war. “How can I help create the greatest happiness for others?” is another way to frame the question that may appeal more to many than a direct argument for the duty of kindness based on a priori principles. In politics, almost no other argument can carry weight besides the happiness of the people. Every party claims to aim for this, which, while often just a cover for self-interest, significantly impacts the thoughts of politicians. In religion, believing that human well-being aligns with the will of God can help reduce superstition. This is a straightforward way to challenge people’s biases and superstitions: whatever does not benefit humanity is not of God. And the idea of the greatest happiness for everyone, especially if seen as God’s will, compared to reality, will serve as a powerful motivator to do good for others.
On the other hand, when the temptation is to speak falsely, to be dishonest or unjust, or in any way to interfere with the rights of others, the argument that these actions regarded as a class will not conduce to the happiness of mankind, though true enough, seems to have less force than the feeling which is already implanted in the mind by conscience and authority. To resolve this feeling into the greatest happiness principle takes away from its sacred and authoritative character. The martyr will not go to the stake in order that he may promote the happiness of mankind, but for the sake of the truth: neither will the soldier advance to the cannon's mouth merely because he believes military discipline to be for the good of mankind. It is better for him to know that he will be shot, that he will be disgraced, if he runs away—he has no need to look beyond military honour, patriotism, 'England expects every man to do his duty.' These are stronger motives than the greatest happiness of the greatest number, which is the thesis of a philosopher, not the watchword of an army. For in human actions men do not always require broad principles; duties often come home to us more when they are limited and defined, and sanctioned by custom and public opinion.
On the other hand, when the urge is to lie, be dishonest or unfair, or in any way violate the rights of others, the argument that these actions, as a group, won't lead to the happiness of humanity, while true, seems less compelling than the conviction already instilled in the mind by conscience and authority. Breaking this conviction down into the greatest happiness principle diminishes its sacred and authoritative nature. A martyr won’t face execution just to promote the happiness of humanity, but for the sake of truth; similarly, a soldier won’t charge into battle merely because he believes military discipline benefits society. It’s better for him to know he will be shot or shamed if he runs away—he has no need to think beyond military honor, patriotism, and the notion that 'England expects every man to do his duty.' These are stronger motivations than the greatest happiness for the greatest number, which is a philosopher's idea, not an army's motto. In human actions, people don’t always need broad principles; duties often resonate more when they are specific, defined, and backed by tradition and public opinion.
Lastly, if we turn to the history of ethics, we shall find that our moral ideas have originated not in utility but in religion, in law, in conceptions of nature, of an ideal good, and the like. And many may be inclined to think that this conclusively disproves the claim of utility to be the basis of morals. But the utilitarian will fairly reply (see above) that we must distinguish the origin of ethics from the principles of them—the historical germ from the later growth of reflection. And he may also truly add that for two thousand years and more, utility, if not the originating, has been the great corrective principle in law, in politics, in religion, leading men to ask how evil may be diminished and good increased—by what course of policy the public interest may be promoted, and to understand that God wills the happiness, not of some of his creatures and in this world only, but of all of them and in every stage of their existence.
Lastly, if we look at the history of ethics, we’ll see that our moral ideas have come not from utility but from religion, law, concepts of nature, an ideal good, and similar sources. Many might think this definitively disproves the idea that utility is the foundation of morals. However, the utilitarian can reasonably respond (see above) that we need to separate the origin of ethics from their principles—the historical root from the later development of thought. They can also rightly point out that for over two thousand years, utility, if not the origin, has been the major corrective principle in law, politics, and religion, prompting people to consider how to reduce evil and increase good—how public interest can be served, and to understand that God desires happiness for all his creatures, not just some, and in every phase of their existence.
'What is the place of happiness or utility in a system of moral philosophy?' is analogous to the question asked in the Philebus, 'What rank does pleasure hold in the scale of goods?' Admitting the greatest happiness principle to be true and valuable, and the necessary foundation of that part of morals which relates to the consequences of actions, we still have to consider whether this or some other general notion is the highest principle of human life. We may try them in this comparison by three tests—definiteness, comprehensiveness, and motive power.
"What is the role of happiness or utility in a moral philosophy system?" is similar to the question raised in the Philebus, "What position does pleasure occupy in the hierarchy of goods?" While we accept the greatest happiness principle as true and important, forming the essential basis of the moral aspects tied to the outcomes of actions, we still need to determine if this or another overarching idea is the ultimate principle of human life. We can evaluate these concepts through three criteria—clarity, breadth, and motivational influence.
There are three subjective principles of morals,—sympathy, benevolence, self-love. But sympathy seems to rest morality on feelings which differ widely even in good men; benevolence and self-love torture one half of our virtuous actions into the likeness of the other. The greatest happiness principle, which includes both, has the advantage over all these in comprehensiveness, but the advantage is purchased at the expense of definiteness.
There are three personal principles of morality— empathy, kindness, and self-interest. However, empathy appears to base morality on emotions that can vary significantly even among good people; kindness and self-interest distort some of our virtuous actions to resemble each other. The greatest happiness principle, which encompasses both, is broader than all these but sacrifices clarity for that breadth.
Again, there are the legal and political principles of morals—freedom, equality, rights of persons; 'Every man to count for one and no man for more than one,' 'Every man equal in the eye of the law and of the legislator.' There is also the other sort of political morality, which if not beginning with 'Might is right,' at any rate seeks to deduce our ideas of justice from the necessities of the state and of society. According to this view the greatest good of men is obedience to law: the best human government is a rational despotism, and the best idea which we can form of a divine being is that of a despot acting not wholly without regard to law and order. To such a view the present mixed state of the world, not wholly evil or wholly good, is supposed to be a witness. More we might desire to have, but are not permitted. Though a human tyrant would be intolerable, a divine tyrant is a very tolerable governor of the universe. This is the doctrine of Thrasymachus adapted to the public opinion of modern times.
Again, there are the legal and political principles of morals—freedom, equality, and the rights of individuals; 'Every person counts for one and no one for more than one,' 'Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and the legislator.' There's also another type of political morality, which, if it doesn't start with 'Might makes right,' at least tries to base our ideas of justice on the needs of the state and society. According to this perspective, the greatest good for people is following the law: the best human government is a rational dictatorship, and the best idea we can have of a divine being is that of a dictator who isn't entirely without regard for law and order. This view suggests that the current mixed state of the world, which is neither completely evil nor completely good, serves as evidence of this idea. We might wish for more, but we are not allowed it. While a human tyrant would be unbearable, a divine tyrant is a quite acceptable ruler of the universe. This is the doctrine of Thrasymachus adapted to modern public opinion.
There is yet a third view which combines the two:—freedom is obedience to the law, and the greatest order is also the greatest freedom; 'Act so that thy action may be the law of every intelligent being.' This view is noble and elevating; but it seems to err, like other transcendental principles of ethics, in being too abstract. For there is the same difficulty in connecting the idea of duty with particular duties as in bridging the gulf between phainomena and onta; and when, as in the system of Kant, this universal idea or law is held to be independent of space and time, such a mataion eidos becomes almost unmeaning.
There’s a third perspective that blends the two: freedom is following the law, and the greatest order brings about the greatest freedom; 'Act in a way that your actions could be the law for every intelligent being.' This idea is admirable and inspiring, but it seems to make the same mistake that other abstract ethical principles do—it’s too abstract. There’s a similar challenge in linking the concept of duty with specific duties as there is in connecting phenomenon and reality; and when, as in Kant's philosophy, this universal concept or law is considered separate from space and time, such an abstract idea becomes almost meaningless.
Once more there are the religious principles of morals:—the will of God revealed in Scripture and in nature. No philosophy has supplied a sanction equal in authority to this, or a motive equal in strength to the belief in another life. Yet about these too we must ask What will of God? how revealed to us, and by what proofs? Religion, like happiness, is a word which has great influence apart from any consideration of its content: it may be for great good or for great evil. But true religion is the synthesis of religion and morality, beginning with divine perfection in which all human perfection is embodied. It moves among ideas of holiness, justice, love, wisdom, truth; these are to God, in whom they are personified, what the Platonic ideas are to the idea of good. It is the consciousness of the will of God that all men should be as he is. It lives in this world and is known to us only through the phenomena of this world, but it extends to worlds beyond. Ordinary religion which is alloyed with motives of this world may easily be in excess, may be fanatical, may be interested, may be the mask of ambition, may be perverted in a thousand ways. But of that religion which combines the will of God with our highest ideas of truth and right there can never be too much. This impossibility of excess is the note of divine moderation.
Once again, we come to the religious principles of morality: the will of God revealed in Scripture and in nature. No philosophy has provided a sanction as authoritative as this, or a motivation as powerful as the belief in an afterlife. Yet we must question, What is the will of God? How is it revealed to us, and by what evidence? Religion, like happiness, is a term that holds significant sway, regardless of its actual content: it can lead to great good or great evil. However, true religion is the combination of faith and morality, starting with divine perfection, which embodies all human perfection. It engages with concepts of holiness, justice, love, wisdom, and truth; these qualities, personified in God, are akin to the Platonic ideals of the good. It reflects the understanding that God's will is for all humanity to strive to be like Him. It exists in this world and is known to us through the experiences of this world, but it also reaches into realms beyond. Ordinary religion, which is mixed with worldly motives, can easily become excessive, fanatical, self-serving, a mask for ambition, or corrupted in countless ways. But the kind of religion that aligns the will of God with our highest ideals of truth and justice can never be too much. This inability to have too much is the essence of divine moderation.
So then, having briefly passed in review the various principles of moral philosophy, we may now arrange our goods in order, though, like the reader of the Philebus, we have a difficulty in distinguishing the different aspects of them from one another, or defining the point at which the human passes into the divine.
So, after quickly going over the different principles of moral philosophy, we can now organize our goods, although, like the reader of the Philebus, we struggle to tell the different aspects apart or to define where the human ends and the divine begins.
First, the eternal will of God in this world and in another,—justice, holiness, wisdom, love, without succession of acts (ouch e genesis prosestin), which is known to us in part only, and reverenced by us as divine perfection.
First, the everlasting will of God in this world and the next—justice, holiness, wisdom, love, without a series of actions (ouch e genesis prostin), which we understand only in part and honor as divine perfection.
Secondly, human perfection, or the fulfilment of the will of God in this world, and co-operation with his laws revealed to us by reason and experience, in nature, history, and in our own minds.
Secondly, human perfection, or fulfilling God's will in this world, involves cooperating with the laws He has revealed to us through reason and experience, in nature, history, and in our own minds.
Thirdly, the elements of human perfection,—virtue, knowledge, and right opinion.
Thirdly, the key elements of human perfection—virtue, knowledge, and good judgment.
Fourthly, the external conditions of perfection,—health and the goods of life.
Fourthly, the external conditions for perfection—health and the essentials of life.
Fifthly, beauty and happiness,—the inward enjoyment of that which is best and fairest in this world and in the human soul.
Fifthly, beauty and happiness—the inner joy of experiencing the best and most beautiful things in this world and in the human spirit.
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Sure! Please provide the text you'd like me to modernize.
The Philebus is probably the latest in time of the writings of Plato with the exception of the Laws. We have in it therefore the last development of his philosophy. The extreme and one-sided doctrines of the Cynics and Cyrenaics are included in a larger whole; the relations of pleasure and knowledge to each other and to the good are authoritatively determined; the Eleatic Being and the Heraclitean Flux no longer divide the empire of thought; the Mind of Anaxagoras has become the Mind of God and of the World. The great distinction between pure and applied science for the first time has a place in philosophy; the natural claim of dialectic to be the Queen of the Sciences is once more affirmed. This latter is the bond of union which pervades the whole or nearly the whole of the Platonic writings. And here as in several other dialogues (Phaedrus, Republic, etc.) it is presented to us in a manner playful yet also serious, and sometimes as if the thought of it were too great for human utterance and came down from heaven direct. It is the organization of knowledge wonderful to think of at a time when knowledge itself could hardly be said to exist. It is this more than any other element which distinguishes Plato, not only from the presocratic philosophers, but from Socrates himself.
The Philebus is likely the most recent of Plato's writings, aside from the Laws. It represents the final development of his philosophy. The extreme and one-sided beliefs of the Cynics and Cyrenaics are woven into a bigger picture; the relationships between pleasure, knowledge, and the good are clearly defined; the Eleatic concept of being and the Heraclitean idea of change no longer clash. Anaxagoras' Mind has evolved into the Mind of God and the Universe. For the first time, a significant difference between pure and applied science is acknowledged in philosophy; the inherent right of dialectic to be the "Queen of the Sciences" is reaffirmed. This concept serves as the unifying thread that runs through nearly all of Plato's works. Here, as in several other dialogues (like Phaedrus, Republic, etc.), it is conveyed in a way that is both playful and serious, sometimes feeling so profound that it seems to come straight from heaven. It is remarkable to consider the organization of knowledge at a time when knowledge itself was scarcely acknowledged. This aspect more than any other sets Plato apart, not only from the pre-Socratic philosophers but also from Socrates himself.
We have not yet reached the confines of Aristotle, but we make a somewhat nearer approach to him in the Philebus than in the earlier Platonic writings. The germs of logic are beginning to appear, but they are not collected into a whole, or made a separate science or system. Many thinkers of many different schools have to be interposed between the Parmenides or Philebus of Plato, and the Physics or Metaphysics of Aristotle. It is this interval upon which we have to fix our minds if we would rightly understand the character of the transition from one to the other. Plato and Aristotle do not dovetail into one another; nor does the one begin where the other ends; there is a gulf between them not to be measured by time, which in the fragmentary state of our knowledge it is impossible to bridge over. It follows that the one cannot be interpreted by the other. At any rate, it is not Plato who is to be interpreted by Aristotle, but Aristotle by Plato. Of all philosophy and of all art the true understanding is to be sought not in the afterthoughts of posterity, but in the elements out of which they have arisen. For the previous stage is a tendency towards the ideal at which they are aiming; the later is a declination or deviation from them, or even a perversion of them. No man's thoughts were ever so well expressed by his disciples as by himself.
We haven't fully explored Aristotle yet, but we come closer to him in the Philebus than in Plato's earlier works. The beginnings of logic are starting to show up, but they're not yet organized into a complete system or separate science. Many different thinkers from various schools are needed to fill the gap between Plato's Parmenides or Philebus and Aristotle's Physics or Metaphysics. We need to focus on this gap to properly understand how the transition between them occurs. Plato and Aristotle don't seamlessly connect; one doesn't pick up right where the other leaves off. There’s a significant divide between them that can’t be bridged just by looking at time, and with our incomplete knowledge, it's impossible to do so. This means one can't be explained by the other. It's not Plato who needs to be interpreted by Aristotle, but rather Aristotle by Plato. True understanding of all philosophy and art should not come from later interpretations, but from the original elements from which they developed. The previous stage shows a movement toward the ideal they aimed for, while the later stage represents a decline or deviation from those ideals, or even a distortion of them. No one's ideas are ever expressed as clearly by their followers as by the person themselves.
But although Plato in the Philebus does not come into any close connexion with Aristotle, he is now a long way from himself and from the beginnings of his own philosophy. At the time of his death he left his system still incomplete; or he may be more truly said to have had no system, but to have lived in the successive stages or moments of metaphysical thought which presented themselves from time to time. The earlier discussions about universal ideas and definitions seem to have died away; the correlation of ideas has taken their place. The flowers of rhetoric and poetry have lost their freshness and charm; and a technical language has begun to supersede and overgrow them. But the power of thinking tends to increase with age, and the experience of life to widen and deepen. The good is summed up under categories which are not summa genera, but heads or gradations of thought. The question of pleasure and the relation of bodily pleasures to mental, which is hardly treated of elsewhere in Plato, is here analysed with great subtlety. The mean or measure is now made the first principle of good. Some of these questions reappear in Aristotle, as does also the distinction between metaphysics and mathematics. But there are many things in Plato which have been lost in Aristotle; and many things in Aristotle not to be found in Plato. The most remarkable deficiency in Aristotle is the disappearance of the Platonic dialectic, which in the Aristotelian school is only used in a comparatively unimportant and trivial sense. The most remarkable additions are the invention of the Syllogism, the conception of happiness as the foundation of morals, the reference of human actions to the standard of the better mind of the world, or of the one 'sensible man' or 'superior person.' His conception of ousia, or essence, is not an advance upon Plato, but a return to the poor and meagre abstractions of the Eleatic philosophy. The dry attempt to reduce the presocratic philosophy by his own rather arbitrary standard of the four causes, contrasts unfavourably with Plato's general discussion of the same subject (Sophist). To attempt further to sum up the differences between the two great philosophers would be out of place here. Any real discussion of their relation to one another must be preceded by an examination into the nature and character of the Aristotelian writings and the form in which they have come down to us. This enquiry is not really separable from an investigation of Theophrastus as well as Aristotle and of the remains of other schools of philosophy as well as of the Peripatetics. But, without entering on this wide field, even a superficial consideration of the logical and metaphysical works which pass under the name of Aristotle, whether we suppose them to have come directly from his hand or to be the tradition of his school, is sufficient to show how great was the mental activity which prevailed in the latter half of the fourth century B.C.; what eddies and whirlpools of controversies were surging in the chaos of thought, what transformations of the old philosophies were taking place everywhere, what eclecticisms and syncretisms and realisms and nominalisms were affecting the mind of Hellas. The decline of philosophy during this period is no less remarkable than the loss of freedom; and the two are not unconnected with each other. But of the multitudinous sea of opinions which were current in the age of Aristotle we have no exact account. We know of them from allusions only. And we cannot with advantage fill up the void of our knowledge by conjecture: we can only make allowance for our ignorance.
But even though Plato in the Philebus doesn't get too close to Aristotle, he is now quite distant from himself and the beginnings of his philosophy. By the time he died, he left his ideas still unfinished; it might be more accurate to say he didn't have a fixed system but lived through different stages of metaphysical thought that emerged over time. The earlier discussions about universal ideas and definitions seem to have faded away; they've been replaced by the correlation of ideas. The beauty of rhetoric and poetry has lost its freshness and appeal, and a more technical language has started to take over. However, the ability to think tends to grow with age, and life experiences tend to expand and deepen. The good is categorized not as general categories but as levels or stages of thought. The question of pleasure and the connection between physical and mental pleasures, which is barely covered elsewhere in Plato, is analyzed here with great subtlety. The mean or measure is now considered the first principle of what is good. Some of these questions resurface in Aristotle, as does the distinction between metaphysics and mathematics. Yet there are many concepts in Plato that Aristotle doesn’t include, and many in Aristotle that can’t be found in Plato. The most notable gap in Aristotle is the absence of the Platonic dialectic, which in the Aristotelian school is only used in a relatively unimportant and trivial way. The most significant additions include the invention of the Syllogism, the idea of happiness as the basis of morals, and linking human actions to the standard of a wiser mindset, or to the one 'sensible person' or 'superior individual.' His idea of ousia, or essence, doesn’t advance beyond Plato but rather goes back to the simple and sparse abstractions of Eleatic philosophy. The dry attempt to reduce pre-Socratic philosophy to his own somewhat arbitrary framework of the four causes contrasts unfavorably with Plato's broader discussion of the same topic (Sophist). Summarizing the differences between these two great philosophers would be out of place here. Any genuine discussion of their relationship must be preceded by an examination of the nature and character of Aristotle's writings and the form in which they've come down to us. This inquiry really can’t be separated from looking into Theophrastus, Aristotle, and the remaining works of other philosophical schools, along with the Peripatetics. However, without diving into this expansive area, even a basic look at the logical and metaphysical works attributed to Aristotle—whether we believe they came directly from him or are the traditions of his school—suffices to demonstrate the intense mental activity that prevailed in the latter half of the fourth century B.C.; the swirling controversies that surged in the chaos of thought, the transformations of older philosophies occurring everywhere, and the eclecticism, syncretism, realism, and nominalism shaping the minds of the Greeks. The decline of philosophy during this time is just as striking as the loss of freedom, and the two are linked in many ways. Yet we have no precise account of the wide range of opinions circulating in Aristotle's age. We only know about them from hints. We can’t effectively fill the gaps in our understanding with guesses; we can only acknowledge our ignorance.
There are several passages in the Philebus which are very characteristic of Plato, and which we shall do well to consider not only in their connexion, but apart from their connexion as inspired sayings or oracles which receive their full interpretation only from the history of philosophy in later ages. The more serious attacks on traditional beliefs which are often veiled under an unusual simplicity or irony are of this kind. Such, for example, is the excessive and more than human awe which Socrates expresses about the names of the gods, which may be not unaptly compared with the importance attached by mankind to theological terms in other ages; for this also may be comprehended under the satire of Socrates. Let us observe the religious and intellectual enthusiasm which shines forth in the following, 'The power and faculty of loving the truth, and of doing all things for the sake of the truth': or, again, the singular acknowledgment which may be regarded as the anticipation of a new logic, that 'In going to war for mind I must have weapons of a different make from those which I used before, although some of the old ones may do again.' Let us pause awhile to reflect on a sentence which is full of meaning to reformers of religion or to the original thinker of all ages: 'Shall we then agree with them of old time, and merely reassert the notions of others without risk to ourselves; or shall we venture also to share in the risk and bear the reproach which will await us': i.e. if we assert mind to be the author of nature. Let us note the remarkable words, 'That in the divine nature of Zeus there is the soul and mind of a King, because there is in him the power of the cause,' a saying in which theology and philosophy are blended and reconciled; not omitting to observe the deep insight into human nature which is shown by the repetition of the same thought 'All philosophers are agreed that mind is the king of heaven and earth' with the ironical addition, 'in this way truly they magnify themselves.' Nor let us pass unheeded the indignation felt by the generous youth at the 'blasphemy' of those who say that Chaos and Chance Medley created the world; or the significance of the words 'those who said of old time that mind rules the universe'; or the pregnant observation that 'we are not always conscious of what we are doing or of what happens to us,' a chance expression to which if philosophers had attended they would have escaped many errors in psychology. We may contrast the contempt which is poured upon the verbal difficulty of the one and many, and the seriousness with the unity of opposites is regarded from the higher point of view of abstract ideas: or compare the simple manner in which the question of cause and effect and their mutual dependence is regarded by Plato (to which modern science has returned in Mill and Bacon), and the cumbrous fourfold division of causes in the Physics and Metaphysics of Aristotle, for which it has puzzled the world to find a use in so many centuries. When we consider the backwardness of knowledge in the age of Plato, the boldness with which he looks forward into the distance, the many questions of modern philosophy which are anticipated in his writings, may we not truly describe him in his own words as a 'spectator of all time and of all existence'?
There are several passages in the Philebus that really stand out as typical of Plato, and we should examine them not only in their context but also on their own as inspired statements or insights that find their full meaning through the history of philosophy in later times. The more serious critiques of traditional beliefs, often disguised in a striking simplicity or irony, fall into this category. For instance, Socrates expresses an extraordinary and almost superhuman reverence for the names of the gods, which could be compared to the significance people have placed on theological terms in different times; this can also be interpreted through the lens of Socratic satire. Let’s pay attention to the religious and intellectual passion evident in the following phrase: “The power and ability to love the truth and to do everything for the sake of the truth.” Additionally, consider the unique acknowledgment that could be seen as a precursor to a new logical approach: “In waging war for the mind, I must use different weapons from those I had before, even though some of the old ones might work again.” Let’s take a moment to reflect on a sentence that carries significant meaning for religious reformers or the original thinkers of any era: “Shall we align ourselves with those of the past and simply reassert the ideas of others without putting ourselves at risk, or shall we also take the risk and endure the backlash that will come our way?”—meaning if we claim that the mind is the creator of nature. Let’s note the striking statement, “That in the divine nature of Zeus there is the soul and intellect of a King, because in him lies the power of the cause,” a phrase where theology and philosophy meet and coexist; and let’s not overlook the deep understanding of human nature reflected in the repeated thought, “All philosophers agree that the mind is the king of heaven and earth,” with the sarcastic addition, “in this way they certainly elevate themselves.” We should also acknowledge the outrage felt by the noble youth at the “blasphemy” of those who claim that Chaos and Chance created the world; or the importance of the statement, “those who asserted long ago that mind governs the universe”; or the insightful observation that “we are not always aware of what we are doing or what happens to us,” a casual remark that, if philosophers had paid attention to, could have saved them from many psychological errors. We may contrast the disdain directed at the verbal confusion surrounding the one and the many, and the seriousness with which the unity of opposites is viewed from the higher perspective of abstract ideas; or compare the straightforward manner in which Plato addresses the question of cause and effect and their interdependence (a view modern science has returned to in the works of Mill and Bacon), against Aristotle’s complicated fourfold classification of causes in his Physics and Metaphysics, which has puzzled the world for centuries trying to find its purpose. When we consider how underdeveloped knowledge was during Plato’s time, along with his courage to gaze into the future, and the numerous issues of modern philosophy he anticipated in his writings, can we not rightly call him, in his own words, a “spectator of all time and of all existence”?
PHILEBUS
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.
PERSONS IN THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Protarchus, Philebus.
SOCRATES: Observe, Protarchus, the nature of the position which you are now going to take from Philebus, and what the other position is which I maintain, and which, if you do not approve of it, is to be controverted by you. Shall you and I sum up the two sides?
SOCRATES: Take a look, Protarchus, at the stance you're about to present from Philebus, and consider my opposing view, which you can challenge if you disagree. Should we summarize both perspectives?
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Philebus was saying that enjoyment and pleasure and delight, and the class of feelings akin to them, are a good to every living being, whereas I contend, that not these, but wisdom and intelligence and memory, and their kindred, right opinion and true reasoning, are better and more desirable than pleasure for all who are able to partake of them, and that to all such who are or ever will be they are the most advantageous of all things. Have I not given, Philebus, a fair statement of the two sides of the argument?
SOCRATES: Philebus was saying that enjoyment, pleasure, and delight, along with feelings related to them, are good for every living being. In contrast, I argue that wisdom, intelligence, memory, and related qualities—like sound judgment and true reasoning—are better and more valuable than pleasure for everyone who can appreciate them, and for all who exist or ever will exist, they are the most beneficial of all things. Have I not presented a fair summary of both sides of the argument, Philebus?
PHILEBUS: Nothing could be fairer, Socrates.
PHILEBUS: Nothing could be better, Socrates.
SOCRATES: And do you, Protarchus, accept the position which is assigned to you?
SOCRATES: So, Protarchus, do you accept the role that you've been given?
PROTARCHUS: I cannot do otherwise, since our excellent Philebus has left the field.
PROTARCHUS: I can't do anything else, since our great Philebus is no longer here.
SOCRATES: Surely the truth about these matters ought, by all means, to be ascertained.
SOCRATES: Definitely, we should find out the truth about these issues.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: Shall we further agree—
SOCRATES: Should we agree further—
PROTARCHUS: To what?
To what?
SOCRATES: That you and I must now try to indicate some state and disposition of the soul, which has the property of making all men happy.
SOCRATES: We need to figure out a state and condition of the soul that brings happiness to everyone.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, by all means.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And you say that pleasure, and I say that wisdom, is such a state?
SOCRATES: You say that pleasure is that state, and I say it’s wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: And what if there be a third state, which is better than either? Then both of us are vanquished—are we not? But if this life, which really has the power of making men happy, turn out to be more akin to pleasure than to wisdom, the life of pleasure may still have the advantage over the life of wisdom.
SOCRATES: What if there's a third state that's better than both? Then we both lose, right? But if this life, which truly can make people happy, turns out to be closer to pleasure than to wisdom, then the life of pleasure might still be better than the life of wisdom.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: Or suppose that the better life is more nearly allied to wisdom, then wisdom conquers, and pleasure is defeated;—do you agree?
SOCRATES: So, if we assume that a better life is more closely connected to wisdom, then wisdom wins, and pleasure loses;—do you agree?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Definitely.
SOCRATES: And what do you say, Philebus?
SOCRATES: So what’s your take on this, Philebus?
PHILEBUS: I say, and shall always say, that pleasure is easily the conqueror; but you must decide for yourself, Protarchus.
PHILEBUS: I say, and will always say, that pleasure is clearly the winner; but you need to decide for yourself, Protarchus.
PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus, have handed over the argument to me, and have no longer a voice in the matter?
PROTARCHUS: You, Philebus, have left the argument to me, and you no longer have a say in this?
PHILEBUS: True enough. Nevertheless I would clear myself and deliver my soul of you; and I call the goddess herself to witness that I now do so.
PHILEBUS: That's true. Still, I want to free myself and cleanse my spirit of you; and I call the goddess herself to witness that I am doing this now.
PROTARCHUS: You may appeal to us; we too will be the witnesses of your words. And now, Socrates, whether Philebus is pleased or displeased, we will proceed with the argument.
PROTARCHUS: You can count on us; we’ll be witnesses to what you say. Now, Socrates, whether Philebus is happy or not, we’ll continue with the discussion.
SOCRATES: Then let us begin with the goddess herself, of whom Philebus says that she is called Aphrodite, but that her real name is Pleasure.
SOCRATES: So let's start with the goddess herself, whom Philebus says is called Aphrodite, but her true name is Pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Awesome.
SOCRATES: The awe which I always feel, Protarchus, about the names of the gods is more than human—it exceeds all other fears. And now I would not sin against Aphrodite by naming her amiss; let her be called what she pleases. But Pleasure I know to be manifold, and with her, as I was just now saying, we must begin, and consider what her nature is. She has one name, and therefore you would imagine that she is one; and yet surely she takes the most varied and even unlike forms. For do we not say that the intemperate has pleasure, and that the temperate has pleasure in his very temperance,—that the fool is pleased when he is full of foolish fancies and hopes, and that the wise man has pleasure in his wisdom? and how foolish would any one be who affirmed that all these opposite pleasures are severally alike!
SOCRATES: The awe I always feel, Protarchus, about the names of the gods is beyond human understanding—it surpasses all other fears. And now I wouldn’t go against Aphrodite by misnaming her; let her be called whatever she prefers. But I know that Pleasure is diverse, and as I was just saying, we should start with her and examine what her nature is. She has one name, so you might think she is singular; yet, she takes on many different and even contrasting forms. Don't we say that the intemperate person experiences pleasure, while the temperate person finds pleasure in their very temperance? The fool is happy when filled with foolish thoughts and dreams, while the wise person finds pleasure in their wisdom. How foolish would anyone be to claim that all these different pleasures are exactly the same!
PROTARCHUS: Why, Socrates, they are opposed in so far as they spring from opposite sources, but they are not in themselves opposite. For must not pleasure be of all things most absolutely like pleasure,—that is, like itself?
PROTARCHUS: Well, Socrates, they are opposed because they come from different sources, but they're not inherently opposites. After all, isn’t pleasure, in its essence, just like pleasure—it’s like itself?
SOCRATES: Yes, my good friend, just as colour is like colour;—in so far as colours are colours, there is no difference between them; and yet we all know that black is not only unlike, but even absolutely opposed to white: or again, as figure is like figure, for all figures are comprehended under one class; and yet particular figures may be absolutely opposed to one another, and there is an infinite diversity of them. And we might find similar examples in many other things; therefore do not rely upon this argument, which would go to prove the unity of the most extreme opposites. And I suspect that we shall find a similar opposition among pleasures.
SOCRATES: Yes, my good friend, just as colors are like colors;—as far as colors are concerned, there’s no difference between them; but we all know that black is not only different but even completely opposite to white. Similarly, figures are like figures, since all figures fall under one category; yet specific figures can be completely opposed to each other, and there’s an endless variety of them. We can find similar examples in many other areas; so, don’t rely on this argument that attempts to prove the unity of the most extreme opposites. I suspect we’ll find a similar opposition among pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Very likely; but how will this invalidate the argument?
PROTARCHUS: That’s probably true; but how does that undermine the argument?
SOCRATES: Why, I shall reply, that dissimilar as they are, you apply to them a new predicate, for you say that all pleasant things are good; now although no one can argue that pleasure is not pleasure, he may argue, as we are doing, that pleasures are oftener bad than good; but you call them all good, and at the same time are compelled, if you are pressed, to acknowledge that they are unlike. And so you must tell us what is the identical quality existing alike in good and bad pleasures, which makes you designate all of them as good.
SOCRATES: Well, I’ll respond that even though they’re different, you’re assigning them a new label because you say that everything enjoyable is good. While no one can dispute that pleasure is pleasure, they can argue, as we are doing, that pleasures are often more bad than good; yet you claim they are all good and, if challenged, you have to admit that they’re different. So, you need to explain what the common quality is in both good and bad pleasures that makes you label all of them as good.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates? Do you think that any one who asserts pleasure to be the good, will tolerate the notion that some pleasures are good and others bad?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, Socrates? Do you really think that anyone who claims pleasure is the ultimate good will accept that some pleasures are good and others are bad?
SOCRATES: And yet you will acknowledge that they are different from one another, and sometimes opposed?
SOCRATES: And yet you will admit that they are different from each other and sometimes in conflict?
PROTARCHUS: Not in so far as they are pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Not as long as they are pleasures.
SOCRATES: That is a return to the old position, Protarchus, and so we are to say (are we?) that there is no difference in pleasures, but that they are all alike; and the examples which have just been cited do not pierce our dull minds, but we go on arguing all the same, like the weakest and most inexperienced reasoners? (Probably corrupt.)
SOCRATES: That’s going back to the old argument, Protarchus. So are we really saying that all pleasures are the same and there’s no difference between them? The examples we just mentioned don’t get through to us, yet we keep arguing anyway, like the weakest and most inexperienced thinkers? (Probably corrupt.)
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by that?
SOCRATES: Why, I mean to say, that in self-defence I may, if I like, follow your example, and assert boldly that the two things most unlike are most absolutely alike; and the result will be that you and I will prove ourselves to be very tyros in the art of disputing; and the argument will be blown away and lost. Suppose that we put back, and return to the old position; then perhaps we may come to an understanding with one another.
SOCRATES: What I mean is that in self-defense, I could, if I wanted to, follow your lead and confidently claim that the two most different things are actually very similar; and the outcome would be that both of us would show ourselves to be complete beginners at arguing, and the debate would just fade away and be meaningless. Let’s take a step back and return to the original point; maybe then we can find some common ground.
PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: Shall I, Protarchus, have my own question asked of me by you?
SOCRATES: Protarchus, are you going to ask me my own question?
PROTARCHUS: What question?
What question are you asking?
SOCRATES: Ask me whether wisdom and science and mind, and those other qualities which I, when asked by you at first what is the nature of the good, affirmed to be good, are not in the same case with the pleasures of which you spoke.
SOCRATES: Ask me if wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and those other qualities that I claimed were good when you first asked me about the nature of the good, are not in the same category as the pleasures you mentioned.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: The sciences are a numerous class, and will be found to present great differences. But even admitting that, like the pleasures, they are opposite as well as different, should I be worthy of the name of dialectician if, in order to avoid this difficulty, I were to say (as you are saying of pleasure) that there is no difference between one science and another;—would not the argument founder and disappear like an idle tale, although we might ourselves escape drowning by clinging to a fallacy?
SOCRATES: There are many different sciences, and they vary greatly. But even if we accept that, just like pleasures, they are both opposed and different, would I really deserve to be called a dialectician if I were to say, to sidestep this issue (like you’re saying about pleasure), that there’s no difference between one science and another? Wouldn’t that argument fall apart and vanish like a silly story, even if we managed to save ourselves from sinking by holding on to a falsehood?
PROTARCHUS: May none of this befal us, except the deliverance! Yet I like the even-handed justice which is applied to both our arguments. Let us assume, then, that there are many and diverse pleasures, and many and different sciences.
PROTARCHUS: I hope none of this happens to us, except for the freedom! But I appreciate the fair justice applied to both our points. So, let's assume that there are many varied pleasures and many different sciences.
SOCRATES: And let us have no concealment, Protarchus, of the differences between my good and yours; but let us bring them to the light in the hope that, in the process of testing them, they may show whether pleasure is to be called the good, or wisdom, or some third quality; for surely we are not now simply contending in order that my view or that yours may prevail, but I presume that we ought both of us to be fighting for the truth.
SOCRATES: Let's not hide the differences between my understanding of good and yours, Protarchus. Instead, let's bring them to light, hoping that by examining them, we can determine whether pleasure, wisdom, or something else entirely is the true good. We're not just arguing to see whose opinion wins; we should both be pursuing the truth.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly we ought.
PROTARCHUS: Of course we should.
SOCRATES: Then let us have a more definite understanding and establish the principle on which the argument rests.
SOCRATES: Let's clarify our understanding and establish the principle that the argument is based on.
PROTARCHUS: What principle?
What principle are you talking about?
SOCRATES: A principle about which all men are always in a difficulty, and some men sometimes against their will.
SOCRATES: There's a principle that everyone struggles with all the time, and some people sometimes resist even when they don't want to.
PROTARCHUS: Speak plainer.
PROTARCHUS: Speak more clearly.
SOCRATES: The principle which has just turned up, which is a marvel of nature; for that one should be many or many one, are wonderful propositions; and he who affirms either is very open to attack.
SOCRATES: The principle that has just come to light, which is a marvel of nature; that one should be many or many should be one, are amazing statements; and anyone who claims either is very vulnerable to criticism.
PROTARCHUS: Do you mean, when a person says that I, Protarchus, am by nature one and also many, dividing the single 'me' into many 'me's,' and even opposing them as great and small, light and heavy, and in ten thousand other ways?
PROTARCHUS: Are you saying that when someone claims I, Protarchus, am both one and many, splitting the single 'me' into multiple 'me's,' and even setting them against each other as big and small, light and heavy, and in countless other ways?
SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are the common and acknowledged paradoxes about the one and many, which I may say that everybody has by this time agreed to dismiss as childish and obvious and detrimental to the true course of thought; and no more favour is shown to that other puzzle, in which a person proves the members and parts of anything to be divided, and then confessing that they are all one, says laughingly in disproof of his own words: Why, here is a miracle, the one is many and infinite, and the many are only one.
SOCRATES: Those, Protarchus, are the common and well-known paradoxes about the one and the many, which I think everyone has now agreed to brush aside as childish, obvious, and harmful to true thinking; and there’s no more support for that other puzzle, where someone divides the parts of something and then, while admitting they’re all one, jokingly claims in contradiction to his own argument: Look at this miracle, the one is many and infinite, and the many are just one.
PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are those other marvels connected with this subject which, as you imply, have not yet become common and acknowledged?
PROTARCHUS: But what, Socrates, are those other wonders related to this topic that, as you suggest, aren't widely known and accepted yet?
SOCRATES: When, my boy, the one does not belong to the class of things that are born and perish, as in the instances which we were giving, for in those cases, and when unity is of this concrete nature, there is, as I was saying, a universal consent that no refutation is needed; but when the assertion is made that man is one, or ox is one, or beauty one, or the good one, then the interest which attaches to these and similar unities and the attempt which is made to divide them gives birth to a controversy.
SOCRATES: Listen, my boy, when something doesn't belong to the category of things that are born and die, like the examples we discussed, there's a general agreement that no argument is necessary. However, when we claim that a person is one, or a cow is one, or that beauty is one, or that goodness is one, then the interest in these different unities and the effort to analyze them leads to a debate.
PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?
What kind is it?
SOCRATES: In the first place, as to whether these unities have a real existence; and then how each individual unity, being always the same, and incapable either of generation or of destruction, but retaining a permanent individuality, can be conceived either as dispersed and multiplied in the infinity of the world of generation, or as still entire and yet divided from itself, which latter would seem to be the greatest impossibility of all, for how can one and the same thing be at the same time in one and in many things? These, Protarchus, are the real difficulties, and this is the one and many to which they relate; they are the source of great perplexity if ill decided, and the right determination of them is very helpful.
SOCRATES: First of all, let's talk about whether these unities really exist and how each individual unity, which is always the same and cannot be created or destroyed, while maintaining a permanent identity, can be understood either as spread out and multiplied in the endless world of generation or as whole yet separate from itself. The latter seems to be the biggest impossibility of all since how can one and the same thing exist both as one and in many different forms? These are the real challenges, Protarchus, and this relates to the concept of the one and the many; they can cause significant confusion if we don’t resolve them properly, and figuring them out correctly is very beneficial.
PROTARCHUS: Then, Socrates, let us begin by clearing up these questions.
PROTARCHUS: So, Socrates, let’s start by sorting out these questions.
SOCRATES: That is what I should wish.
SOCRATES: That's what I would like.
PROTARCHUS: And I am sure that all my other friends will be glad to hear them discussed; Philebus, fortunately for us, is not disposed to move, and we had better not stir him up with questions.
PROTARCHUS: I'm sure all my other friends will be happy to hear them talked about; luckily for us, Philebus isn't in the mood to engage, and it's best we don't provoke him with questions.
SOCRATES: Good; and where shall we begin this great and multifarious battle, in which such various points are at issue? Shall we begin thus?
SOCRATES: Alright, where should we start this big and complex debate, where so many different issues are at play? Should we begin this way?
PROTARCHUS: How?
PROTARCHUS: What?
SOCRATES: We say that the one and many become identified by thought, and that now, as in time past, they run about together, in and out of every word which is uttered, and that this union of them will never cease, and is not now beginning, but is, as I believe, an everlasting quality of thought itself, which never grows old. Any young man, when he first tastes these subtleties, is delighted, and fancies that he has found a treasure of wisdom; in the first enthusiasm of his joy he leaves no stone, or rather no thought unturned, now rolling up the many into the one, and kneading them together, now unfolding and dividing them; he puzzles himself first and above all, and then he proceeds to puzzle his neighbours, whether they are older or younger, or of his own age—that makes no difference; neither father nor mother does he spare; no human being who has ears is safe from him, hardly even his dog, and a barbarian would have no chance of escaping him, if an interpreter could only be found.
SOCRATES: We say that the one and the many are connected by thought, and that now, just like in the past, they’re intertwined in every word spoken. This connection will never end, and it’s not something new; I believe it’s an eternal aspect of thought itself that never ages. Any young person who experiences these complexities for the first time feels thrilled, believing they’ve discovered a treasure of wisdom. In their initial excitement, they explore every possibility, merging the many into the one, mixing them together, and then unfolding and separating them. They confuse themselves first and foremost, and then they go on to confuse everyone around them, whether they’re older, younger, or the same age—that doesn’t matter; they spare neither their father nor their mother; no one who can hear is safe from them, not even their dog, and a foreigner wouldn’t stand a chance if an interpreter could just be found.
PROTARCHUS: Considering, Socrates, how many we are, and that all of us are young men, is there not a danger that we and Philebus may all set upon you, if you abuse us? We understand what you mean; but is there no charm by which we may dispel all this confusion, no more excellent way of arriving at the truth? If there is, we hope that you will guide us into that way, and we will do our best to follow, for the enquiry in which we are engaged, Socrates, is not unimportant.
PROTARCHUS: Socrates, given how many of us there are and that we’re all young men, isn’t there a risk that Philebus and the rest of us might turn on you if you criticize us? We get your point, but isn’t there a better way to clear up all this confusion and find the truth? If there is, we hope you can lead us there, and we'll do our best to follow, because the discussion we’re having, Socrates, is quite important.
SOCRATES: The reverse of unimportant, my boys, as Philebus calls you, and there neither is nor ever will be a better than my own favourite way, which has nevertheless already often deserted me and left me helpless in the hour of need.
SOCRATES: The opposite of unimportant, my boys, as Philebus calls you, and there is no better way than my own preferred method, which has often let me down and left me helpless when I needed it most.
PROTARCHUS: Tell us what that is.
PROTARCHUS: Please tell us what that is.
SOCRATES: One which may be easily pointed out, but is by no means easy of application; it is the parent of all the discoveries in the arts.
SOCRATES: It's something that can be easily identified, but isn't at all easy to apply; it is the source of all discoveries in the arts.
PROTARCHUS: Tell us what it is.
PROTARCHUS: Please tell us what it is.
SOCRATES: A gift of heaven, which, as I conceive, the gods tossed among men by the hands of a new Prometheus, and therewith a blaze of light; and the ancients, who were our betters and nearer the gods than we are, handed down the tradition, that whatever things are said to be are composed of one and many, and have the finite and infinite implanted in them: seeing, then, that such is the order of the world, we too ought in every enquiry to begin by laying down one idea of that which is the subject of enquiry; this unity we shall find in everything. Having found it, we may next proceed to look for two, if there be two, or, if not, then for three or some other number, subdividing each of these units, until at last the unity with which we began is seen not only to be one and many and infinite, but also a definite number; the infinite must not be suffered to approach the many until the entire number of the species intermediate between unity and infinity has been discovered,—then, and not till then, we may rest from division, and without further troubling ourselves about the endless individuals may allow them to drop into infinity. This, as I was saying, is the way of considering and learning and teaching one another, which the gods have handed down to us. But the wise men of our time are either too quick or too slow in conceiving plurality in unity. Having no method, they make their one and many anyhow, and from unity pass at once to infinity; the intermediate steps never occur to them. And this, I repeat, is what makes the difference between the mere art of disputation and true dialectic.
SOCRATES: A gift from the heavens, which I believe the gods tossed among us through a new Prometheus, bringing with it a spark of insight; and the ancients, who were greater than us and closer to the gods, passed down the belief that everything we call real is made up of the one and the many, containing both the finite and the infinite. Given that this is the order of the world, we should start every inquiry by defining one concept related to the subject at hand; we will find this unity in everything. Once we find it, we can then look for two, if there are two, or if not, then three or another number, breaking down each of these units, until we see that the unity we began with is not just one, but also many and infinite, and ultimately a specific number. We must not let the infinite interfere with the many until we’ve identified all the groups that exist between unity and infinity—only then may we stop dividing and, without worrying about the endless individuals, let them fade into infinity. This, as I was saying, is the way we should consider, learn, and teach one another, as the gods have shown us. However, the wise people of our time are either too hasty or too slow to grasp plurality within unity. Lacking a method, they jumble their one and many and leap straight from unity to infinity, skipping the necessary steps in between. This, I emphasize, is what distinguishes mere arguing from true dialectic.
PROTARCHUS: I think that I partly understand you Socrates, but I should like to have a clearer notion of what you are saying.
PROTARCHUS: I think I kind of understand you, Socrates, but I'd like to get a clearer idea of what you're saying.
SOCRATES: I may illustrate my meaning by the letters of the alphabet, Protarchus, which you were made to learn as a child.
SOCRATES: I can explain what I mean by using the letters of the alphabet, Protarchus, which you learned as a child.
PROTARCHUS: How do they afford an illustration?
PROTARCHUS: How do they provide an example?
SOCRATES: The sound which passes through the lips whether of an individual or of all men is one and yet infinite.
SOCRATES: The sound that comes out of the lips, whether from an individual or from everyone, is both one and infinite.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely true.
SOCRATES: And yet not by knowing either that sound is one or that sound is infinite are we perfect in the art of speech, but the knowledge of the number and nature of sounds is what makes a man a grammarian.
SOCRATES: And yet, just knowing that sound is one or that sound is infinite doesn't make us skilled in the art of speech; it's understanding the number and nature of sounds that makes someone a grammarian.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And the knowledge which makes a man a musician is of the same kind.
SOCRATES: And the knowledge that makes someone a musician is the same type.
PROTARCHUS: How so?
PROTARCHUS: How's that?
SOCRATES: Sound is one in music as well as in grammar?
SOCRATES: Is sound the same in music as it is in grammar?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And there is a higher note and a lower note, and a note of equal pitch:—may we affirm so much?
SOCRATES: So, there’s a higher pitch and a lower pitch, as well as a pitch that’s equal: can we agree on that?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: But you would not be a real musician if this was all that you knew; though if you did not know this you would know almost nothing of music.
SOCRATES: But you wouldn't be a true musician if this was all you knew; yet if you didn't know this, you would hardly know anything about music.
PROTARCHUS: Nothing.
PROTARCHUS: Null.
SOCRATES: But when you have learned what sounds are high and what low, and the number and nature of the intervals and their limits or proportions, and the systems compounded out of them, which our fathers discovered, and have handed down to us who are their descendants under the name of harmonies; and the affections corresponding to them in the movements of the human body, which when measured by numbers ought, as they say, to be called rhythms and measures; and they tell us that the same principle should be applied to every one and many;—when, I say, you have learned all this, then, my dear friend, you are perfect; and you may be said to understand any other subject, when you have a similar grasp of it. But the infinity of kinds and the infinity of individuals which there is in each of them, when not classified, creates in every one of us a state of infinite ignorance; and he who never looks for number in anything, will not himself be looked for in the number of famous men.
SOCRATES: But once you understand the differences between high and low sounds, along with the number and nature of the intervals and their limits or proportions, and the systems made from them, which our ancestors discovered and passed down to us as harmonies; and the related effects in our body's movements, which should be measured by numbers and are referred to as rhythms and measures; and they say the same principle applies to both the individual and the group—once you’ve learned all this, my dear friend, you will be perfect. You will also be said to understand any other subject when you grasp it in a similar way. However, the countless varieties and countless individuals within each of them, when not categorized, create within us a state of endless ignorance; and someone who never seeks for numbers in anything will not be found among the ranks of famous individuals.
PROTARCHUS: I think that what Socrates is now saying is excellent, Philebus.
PROTARCHUS: I think what Socrates is saying right now is great, Philebus.
PHILEBUS: I think so too, but how do his words bear upon us and upon the argument?
PHILEBUS: I think so too, but how do his words relate to us and to the argument?
SOCRATES: Philebus is right in asking that question of us, Protarchus.
SOCRATES: Philebus is correct to ask us that question, Protarchus.
PROTARCHUS: Indeed he is, and you must answer him.
PROTARCHUS: He definitely is, and you need to respond to him.
SOCRATES: I will; but you must let me make one little remark first about these matters; I was saying, that he who begins with any individual unity, should proceed from that, not to infinity, but to a definite number, and now I say conversely, that he who has to begin with infinity should not jump to unity, but he should look about for some number representing a certain quantity, and thus out of all end in one. And now let us return for an illustration of our principle to the case of letters.
SOCRATES: I will, but first, I want to make a quick point about these topics. I mentioned that someone starting with a specific unity should move from that to a definite number, not to infinity. Now, I’m saying the opposite: if someone starts with infinity, they shouldn’t jump straight to unity. Instead, they should look for a number that represents a certain quantity and ultimately conclude with one. Now, let’s go back to our example of letters to illustrate our principle.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: Some god or divine man, who in the Egyptian legend is said to have been Theuth, observing that the human voice was infinite, first distinguished in this infinity a certain number of vowels, and then other letters which had sound, but were not pure vowels (i.e., the semivowels); these too exist in a definite number; and lastly, he distinguished a third class of letters which we now call mutes, without voice and without sound, and divided these, and likewise the two other classes of vowels and semivowels, into the individual sounds, and told the number of them, and gave to each and all of them the name of letters; and observing that none of us could learn any one of them and not learn them all, and in consideration of this common bond which in a manner united them, he assigned to them all a single art, and this he called the art of grammar or letters.
SOCRATES: A god or divine figure, known in the Egyptian legend as Theuth, noticed that human vocalizations were limitless. He first identified a certain number of vowels within this infinite range, followed by other letters that produced sound but weren't pure vowels (like semivowels). These too exist in a specific number. Finally, he recognized a third group of letters, which we now refer to as mutes, that have no sound or voice. He categorized these, along with vowels and semivowels, into distinct sounds, counted them, and assigned each of them the name of letters. Noticing that none of us could learn just one letter without learning them all, and considering the common connection that united them, he designated a single skill for them all, which he called the art of grammar or letters.
PHILEBUS: The illustration, Protarchus, has assisted me in understanding the original statement, but I still feel the defect of which I just now complained.
PHILEBUS: The example, Protarchus, has helped me understand the original statement, but I still notice the flaw I just mentioned.
SOCRATES: Are you going to ask, Philebus, what this has to do with the argument?
SOCRATES: Are you going to ask, Philebus, what this has to do with the argument?
PHILEBUS: Yes, that is a question which Protarchus and I have been long asking.
PHILEBUS: Yeah, that’s a question that Protarchus and I have been pondering for a long time.
SOCRATES: Assuredly you have already arrived at the answer to the question which, as you say, you have been so long asking?
SOCRATES: Surely you’ve already found the answer to the question you’ve been asking for so long, right?
PHILEBUS: How so?
PHILEBUS: How's that?
SOCRATES: Did we not begin by enquiring into the comparative eligibility of pleasure and wisdom?
SOCRATES: Didn't we start by questioning the relative value of pleasure and wisdom?
PHILEBUS: Certainly.
PHILEBUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And we maintain that they are each of them one?
SOCRATES: So, we think that each of them is one?
PHILEBUS: True.
PHILEBUS: Right.
SOCRATES: And the precise question to which the previous discussion desires an answer is, how they are one and also many (i.e., how they have one genus and many species), and are not at once infinite, and what number of species is to be assigned to either of them before they pass into infinity (i.e. into the infinite number of individuals).
SOCRATES: The specific question we want to answer from the earlier discussion is how they can be both one and many (meaning how they have one category and multiple subcategories), and how they aren't infinite at the same time. What number of subcategories should we assign to each of them before we reach infinity (meaning the endless number of individuals)?
PROTARCHUS: That is a very serious question, Philebus, to which Socrates has ingeniously brought us round, and please to consider which of us shall answer him; there may be something ridiculous in my being unable to answer, and therefore imposing the task upon you, when I have undertaken the whole charge of the argument, but if neither of us were able to answer, the result methinks would be still more ridiculous. Let us consider, then, what we are to do:—Socrates, if I understood him rightly, is asking whether there are not kinds of pleasure, and what is the number and nature of them, and the same of wisdom.
PROTARCHUS: That's a really important question, Philebus, that Socrates has cleverly gotten us to discuss. Let’s think about who should answer it; it might seem a bit silly if I can’t answer and put the responsibility on you, especially since I’ve taken on the whole argument. But if neither of us can answer, that would be even more ridiculous. So, let’s figure out what to do: Socrates, if I understood him correctly, is asking whether there are different types of pleasure and what their number and nature are, as well as the same for wisdom.
SOCRATES: Most true, O son of Callias; and the previous argument showed that if we are not able to tell the kinds of everything that has unity, likeness, sameness, or their opposites, none of us will be of the smallest use in any enquiry.
SOCRATES: That's absolutely right, son of Callias; and the earlier argument demonstrated that if we can't identify the types of everything that has unity, resemblance, similarity, or their opposites, none of us will be of any help in any inquiry.
PROTARCHUS: That seems to be very near the truth, Socrates. Happy would the wise man be if he knew all things, and the next best thing for him is that he should know himself. Why do I say so at this moment? I will tell you. You, Socrates, have granted us this opportunity of conversing with you, and are ready to assist us in determining what is the best of human goods. For when Philebus said that pleasure and delight and enjoyment and the like were the chief good, you answered—No, not those, but another class of goods; and we are constantly reminding ourselves of what you said, and very properly, in order that we may not forget to examine and compare the two. And these goods, which in your opinion are to be designated as superior to pleasure, and are the true objects of pursuit, are mind and knowledge and understanding and art, and the like. There was a dispute about which were the best, and we playfully threatened that you should not be allowed to go home until the question was settled; and you agreed, and placed yourself at our disposal. And now, as children say, what has been fairly given cannot be taken back; cease then to fight against us in this way.
PROTARCHUS: That seems pretty close to the truth, Socrates. The wise man would be happy if he knew everything, and the next best thing for him is to know himself. Why am I saying this right now? I'll explain. You've given us the chance to talk with you and are willing to help us figure out what the best human goods are. When Philebus claimed that pleasure, delight, enjoyment, and the like were the highest good, you replied—No, not those, but another category of goods; and we constantly remind ourselves of what you said, which is smart, so we don't forget to compare and examine the two. These goods, which you believe are better than pleasure and are the true things worth pursuing, include mind, knowledge, understanding, art, and so on. There was a debate about which were the best, and we jokingly threatened that you wouldn't be allowed to go home until we settled it; and you agreed and made yourself available to us. So now, as kids say, what has been fairly given can't be taken back; so stop resisting us in this way.
SOCRATES: In what way?
SOCRATES: How so?
PHILEBUS: Do not perplex us, and keep asking questions of us to which we have not as yet any sufficient answer to give; let us not imagine that a general puzzling of us all is to be the end of our discussion, but if we are unable to answer, do you answer, as you have promised. Consider, then, whether you will divide pleasure and knowledge according to their kinds; or you may let the matter drop, if you are able and willing to find some other mode of clearing up our controversy.
PHILEBUS: Don’t confuse us by asking questions we can’t answer yet; let’s not think that making us all puzzled is the goal of our discussion. If we can't answer, then you should answer, as you’ve promised. So, think about whether you’ll categorize pleasure and knowledge by their types, or if you're able and willing to find another way to resolve our disagreement.
SOCRATES: If you say that, I have nothing to apprehend, for the words 'if you are willing' dispel all my fear; and, moreover, a god seems to have recalled something to my mind.
SOCRATES: If you say that, I have nothing to worry about, because the words 'if you’re willing' take away all my fear; and, besides, it seems that a god has reminded me of something.
PHILEBUS: What is that?
PHILEBUS: What's that?
SOCRATES: I remember to have heard long ago certain discussions about pleasure and wisdom, whether awake or in a dream I cannot tell; they were to the effect that neither the one nor the other of them was the good, but some third thing, which was different from them, and better than either. If this be clearly established, then pleasure will lose the victory, for the good will cease to be identified with her:—Am I not right?
SOCRATES: I remember hearing discussions a long time ago about pleasure and wisdom, but I can't tell if I was awake or dreaming. They were about how neither pleasure nor wisdom is the ultimate good; instead, there’s a third thing that’s different from both and better than either. If this is proven true, then pleasure will no longer be seen as the ultimate victory, because the good won’t be identified with it anymore. Am I right?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And there will cease to be any need of distinguishing the kinds of pleasures, as I am inclined to think, but this will appear more clearly as we proceed.
SOCRATES: And there won't be any need to differentiate between the types of pleasures, as I believe, but this will become clearer as we continue.
PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; pray go on as you propose.
PROTARCHUS: Capital, Socrates; please continue as you planned.
SOCRATES: But, let us first agree on some little points.
SOCRATES: But first, let’s agree on a few small details.
PROTARCHUS: What are they?
PROTARCHUS: What are those?
SOCRATES: Is the good perfect or imperfect?
SOCRATES: Is the good perfect or imperfect?
PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates, of all things.
PROTARCHUS: The most perfect, Socrates, of everything.
SOCRATES: And is the good sufficient?
SOCRATES: So, is the good enough?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, and in a degree surpassing all other things.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, absolutely, and to a level that exceeds everything else.
SOCRATES: And no one can deny that all percipient beings desire and hunt after good, and are eager to catch and have the good about them, and care not for the attainment of anything which is not accompanied by good.
SOCRATES: And no one can deny that all beings that perceive want and seek after good, and are eager to grasp and have good around them, and don't care about achieving anything that isn't accompanied by good.
PROTARCHUS: That is undeniable.
PROTARCHUS: That's undeniable.
SOCRATES: Now let us part off the life of pleasure from the life of wisdom, and pass them in review.
SOCRATES: Now let’s separate the life of pleasure from the life of wisdom and take a look at both.
PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: Let there be no wisdom in the life of pleasure, nor any pleasure in the life of wisdom, for if either of them is the chief good, it cannot be supposed to want anything, but if either is shown to want anything, then it cannot really be the chief good.
SOCRATES: There should be no wisdom in a life of pleasure, nor any pleasure in a life of wisdom, because if either is the ultimate good, it can't be lacking anything. But if either is shown to be lacking something, then it can't truly be the ultimate good.
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
No way.
SOCRATES: And will you help us to test these two lives?
SOCRATES: Will you help us compare these two lives?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: Then answer.
SOCRATES: Then respond.
PROTARCHUS: Ask.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead, ask.
SOCRATES: Would you choose, Protarchus, to live all your life long in the enjoyment of the greatest pleasures?
SOCRATES: Would you, Protarchus, want to live your whole life enjoying the greatest pleasures?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly I should.
PROTARCHUS: Of course I should.
SOCRATES: Would you consider that there was still anything wanting to you if you had perfect pleasure?
SOCRATES: Would you think there was anything missing for you if you had complete pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: Reflect; would you not want wisdom and intelligence and forethought, and similar qualities? would you not at any rate want sight?
SOCRATES: Think about it; wouldn't you want wisdom, intelligence, and foresight, along with other qualities? At the very least, wouldn’t you want to have eyesight?
PROTARCHUS: Why should I? Having pleasure I should have all things.
PROTARCHUS: Why not? If I have pleasure, I have everything.
SOCRATES: Living thus, you would always throughout your life enjoy the greatest pleasures?
SOCRATES: By living this way, would you always experience the greatest pleasures throughout your life?
PROTARCHUS: I should.
I should.
SOCRATES: But if you had neither mind, nor memory, nor knowledge, nor true opinion, you would in the first place be utterly ignorant of whether you were pleased or not, because you would be entirely devoid of intelligence.
SOCRATES: But if you lacked mind, memory, knowledge, and true opinion, you wouldn’t even know if you were pleased or not, because you would completely lack intelligence.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Sure.
SOCRATES: And similarly, if you had no memory you would not recollect that you had ever been pleased, nor would the slightest recollection of the pleasure which you feel at any moment remain with you; and if you had no true opinion you would not think that you were pleased when you were; and if you had no power of calculation you would not be able to calculate on future pleasure, and your life would be the life, not of a man, but of an oyster or 'pulmo marinus.' Could this be otherwise?
SOCRATES: And similarly, if you had no memory, you wouldn’t remember that you’ve ever experienced pleasure, nor would the slightest memory of the pleasure you feel in any moment stick with you. If you had no true opinion, you wouldn’t think that you’re pleased when you actually are. And without the ability to calculate, you wouldn’t be able to plan for future pleasure, making your life more like that of an oyster or a sea creature. Could it be any different?
PROTARCHUS: No.
Nope.
SOCRATES: But is such a life eligible?
SOCRATES: But is that kind of life worth living?
PROTARCHUS: I cannot answer you, Socrates; the argument has taken away from me the power of speech.
PROTARCHUS: I can’t respond to you, Socrates; the argument has left me speechless.
SOCRATES: We must keep up our spirits;—let us now take the life of mind and examine it in turn.
SOCRATES: We need to stay positive; let’s now take a look at our mental life and explore it step by step.
PROTARCHUS: And what is this life of mind?
PROTARCHUS: So, what is this life of the mind?
SOCRATES: I want to know whether any one of us would consent to live, having wisdom and mind and knowledge and memory of all things, but having no sense of pleasure or pain, and wholly unaffected by these and the like feelings?
SOCRATES: I want to know if any of us would agree to live with wisdom, intelligence, knowledge, and a memory of everything, but without any sense of pleasure or pain, completely unaffected by these kinds of feelings?
PROTARCHUS: Neither life, Socrates, appears eligible to me, nor is likely, as I should imagine, to be chosen by any one else.
PROTARCHUS: I don’t think either life sounds appealing to me, nor do I believe anyone else would choose it either.
SOCRATES: What would you say, Protarchus, to both of these in one, or to one that was made out of the union of the two?
SOCRATES: What do you think, Protarchus, about combining both of these into one, or making one from their union?
PROTARCHUS: Out of the union, that is, of pleasure with mind and wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: From the combination of pleasure, intellect, and wisdom?
SOCRATES: Yes, that is the life which I mean.
SOCRATES: Yes, that's the life I'm talking about.
PROTARCHUS: There can be no difference of opinion; not some but all would surely choose this third rather than either of the other two, and in addition to them.
PROTARCHUS: There’s no way to disagree; everyone would definitely choose this third option over the other two, along with them.
SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?
SOCRATES: But do you see the result?
PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do. The consequence is, that two out of the three lives which have been proposed are neither sufficient nor eligible for man or for animal.
PROTARCHUS: Of course I do. As a result, two of the three lives that have been suggested are neither enough nor suitable for humans or for animals.
SOCRATES: Then now there can be no doubt that neither of them has the good, for the one which had would certainly have been sufficient and perfect and eligible for every living creature or thing that was able to live such a life; and if any of us had chosen any other, he would have chosen contrary to the nature of the truly eligible, and not of his own free will, but either through ignorance or from some unhappy necessity.
SOCRATES: So now it's clear that neither of them has the good, because if one of them did, it would have been enough, perfect, and suitable for every living creature or anything capable of living such a life. If any of us chose something else, it would be against the nature of what is truly suitable, and not by our own free will, but either out of ignorance or some unfortunate necessity.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly that seems to be true.
PROTARCHUS: That definitely seems to be true.
SOCRATES: And now have I not sufficiently shown that Philebus' goddess is not to be regarded as identical with the good?
SOCRATES: And now, have I not clearly shown that Philebus' goddess should not be seen as the same as the good?
PHILEBUS: Neither is your 'mind' the good, Socrates, for that will be open to the same objections.
PHILEBUS: Your 'mind' isn't the good, Socrates, because it faces the same issues.
SOCRATES: Perhaps, Philebus, you may be right in saying so of my 'mind'; but of the true, which is also the divine mind, far otherwise. However, I will not at present claim the first place for mind as against the mixed life; but we must come to some understanding about the second place. For you might affirm pleasure and I mind to be the cause of the mixed life; and in that case although neither of them would be the good, one of them might be imagined to be the cause of the good. And I might proceed further to argue in opposition to Philebus, that the element which makes this mixed life eligible and good, is more akin and more similar to mind than to pleasure. And if this is true, pleasure cannot be truly said to share either in the first or second place, and does not, if I may trust my own mind, attain even to the third.
SOCRATES: Maybe, Philebus, you’re right about my 'mind'; but when it comes to the true, which is also the divine mind, that's a different story. For now, I won’t argue that mind deserves to take the top spot over the mixed life, but we need to figure out its position in second place. You could say that pleasure and mind are responsible for the mixed life; even if neither is the ultimate good, one of them might be seen as a cause of the good. I could argue against Philebus that the element that makes this mixed life desirable and good is more related to mind than to pleasure. If that's the case, pleasure can't really be said to hold either the first or second place, and if I can trust my own mind, it doesn't even reach the third.
PROTARCHUS: Truly, Socrates, pleasure appears to me to have had a fall; in fighting for the palm, she has been smitten by the argument, and is laid low. I must say that mind would have fallen too, and may therefore be thought to show discretion in not putting forward a similar claim. And if pleasure were deprived not only of the first but of the second place, she would be terribly damaged in the eyes of her admirers, for not even to them would she still appear as fair as before.
PROTARCHUS: Honestly, Socrates, it seems to me that pleasure has taken a hit; in her struggle for recognition, she's been struck down by the argument and is now out of the running. I have to admit that the mind might have also suffered and might be wise to avoid making a similar claim. If pleasure were to lose not just the top spot but also the second, it would be a huge blow to her admirers, as she wouldn’t even seem as appealing to them as she used to.
SOCRATES: Well, but had we not better leave her now, and not pain her by applying the crucial test, and finally detecting her?
SOCRATES: Well, shouldn't we just leave her alone for now and not hurt her by putting her through the tough test and eventually exposing her?
PROTARCHUS: Nonsense, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: That's ridiculous, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Why? because I said that we had better not pain pleasure, which is an impossibility?
SOCRATES: Why? Because I said that we shouldn't harm pleasure, which is impossible?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, and more than that, because you do not seem to be aware that none of us will let you go home until you have finished the argument.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, and even more than that, because it looks like you don't realize that we won't let you leave until you've wrapped up the discussion.
SOCRATES: Heavens! Protarchus, that will be a tedious business, and just at present not at all an easy one. For in going to war in the cause of mind, who is aspiring to the second prize, I ought to have weapons of another make from those which I used before; some, however, of the old ones may do again. And must I then finish the argument?
SOCRATES: Wow! Protarchus, that sounds like a tough task, and honestly, not an easy one right now. When fighting for the cause of the mind, aiming for the second prize, I need to have different tools than the ones I used before; although, some of the old ones might still work. So, should I wrap up the argument?
PROTARCHUS: Of course you must.
PROTARCHUS: Of course you have to.
SOCRATES: Let us be very careful in laying the foundation.
SOCRATES: Let's be really careful when we lay the foundation.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by that?
SOCRATES: Let us divide all existing things into two, or rather, if you do not object, into three classes.
SOCRATES: Let’s divide everything that exists into two, or actually, if you don’t mind, into three categories.
PROTARCHUS: Upon what principle would you make the division?
PROTARCHUS: What principle would you use to make the division?
SOCRATES: Let us take some of our newly-found notions.
SOCRATES: Let's discuss some of our new ideas.
PROTARCHUS: Which of them?
PROTARCHUS: Which one?
SOCRATES: Were we not saying that God revealed a finite element of existence, and also an infinite?
SOCRATES: Weren't we saying that God revealed both a limited aspect of existence and an unlimited one?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
For sure.
SOCRATES: Let us assume these two principles, and also a third, which is compounded out of them; but I fear that I am ridiculously clumsy at these processes of division and enumeration.
SOCRATES: Let’s accept these two principles, along with a third that combines them; but I worry that I’m pretty awkward at this process of breaking things down and counting them up.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, my good friend?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, my friend?
SOCRATES: I say that a fourth class is still wanted.
SOCRATES: I think we still need a fourth class.
PROTARCHUS: What will that be?
PROTARCHUS: What is that going to be?
SOCRATES: Find the cause of the third or compound, and add this as a fourth class to the three others.
SOCRATES: Identify the reason for the third or combined type, and add this as a fourth category to the other three.
PROTARCHUS: And would you like to have a fifth class or cause of resolution as well as a cause of composition?
PROTARCHUS: Would you also want a fifth class or reason for resolution in addition to a reason for composition?
SOCRATES: Not, I think, at present; but if I want a fifth at some future time you shall allow me to have it.
SOCRATES: I don’t think so right now; but if I want a fifth one at some point in the future, you’ll let me have it.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: Let us begin with the first three; and as we find two out of the three greatly divided and dispersed, let us endeavour to reunite them, and see how in each of them there is a one and many.
SOCRATES: Let's start with the first three; and since we see that two out of the three are greatly divided and scattered, let's try to bring them back together and see how there is both one and many in each of them.
PROTARCHUS: If you would explain to me a little more about them, perhaps I might be able to follow you.
PROTARCHUS: If you could tell me a bit more about them, I might be able to understand you better.
SOCRATES: Well, the two classes are the same which I mentioned before, one the finite, and the other the infinite; I will first show that the infinite is in a certain sense many, and the finite may be hereafter discussed.
SOCRATES: So, the two categories are the same as I mentioned earlier: one is the finite, and the other is the infinite. I will first demonstrate that the infinite is, in a certain way, many, and we can discuss the finite later.
PROTARCHUS: I agree.
PROTARCHUS: I'm on board.
SOCRATES: And now consider well; for the question to which I invite your attention is difficult and controverted. When you speak of hotter and colder, can you conceive any limit in those qualities? Does not the more and less, which dwells in their very nature, prevent their having any end? for if they had an end, the more and less would themselves have an end.
SOCRATES: Now think carefully; the question I want you to consider is challenging and debated. When you talk about hotter and colder, can you imagine any limits to those qualities? Doesn’t the idea of more and less, which is inherent to their nature, stop them from having any end? Because if they had an end, the concepts of more and less would also have to have an end.
PROTARCHUS: That is most true.
PROTARCHUS: That's absolutely true.
SOCRATES: Ever, as we say, into the hotter and the colder there enters a more and a less.
SOCRATES: Always, as we say, in both the hotter and the colder, there exists more and less.
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yep.
SOCRATES: Then, says the argument, there is never any end of them, and being endless they must also be infinite.
SOCRATES: So, the argument says, there’s never any end to them, and since they’re endless, they must also be infinite.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that is exceedingly true.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that's very true.
SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus, and your answer reminds me that such an expression as 'exceedingly,' which you have just uttered, and also the term 'gently,' have the same significance as more or less; for whenever they occur they do not allow of the existence of quantity—they are always introducing degrees into actions, instituting a comparison of a more or a less excessive or a more or a less gentle, and at each creation of more or less, quantity disappears. For, as I was just now saying, if quantity and measure did not disappear, but were allowed to intrude in the sphere of more and less and the other comparatives, these last would be driven out of their own domain. When definite quantity is once admitted, there can be no longer a 'hotter' or a 'colder' (for these are always progressing, and are never in one stay); but definite quantity is at rest, and has ceased to progress. Which proves that comparatives, such as the hotter and the colder, are to be ranked in the class of the infinite.
SOCRATES: Yes, my dear Protarchus, and your response reminds me that words like 'exceedingly,' which you just mentioned, and 'gently,' have the same meaning as more or less; because whenever they are used, they don’t allow for specific quantities—they always introduce degrees into actions, comparing something as more or less excessive or more or less gentle, and with each instance of more or less, quantity fades away. As I was just saying, if quantity and measure didn’t fade away but were allowed to intrude into the realm of more and less and the other comparatives, those comparatives would be pushed out of their own territory. Once definite quantity is allowed in, there can no longer be a 'hotter' or a 'colder' (since these are always changing and never static); but definite quantity is fixed and has stopped progressing. This shows that comparatives, like hotter and colder, belong in the category of the infinite.
PROTARCHUS: Your remark certainly has the look of truth, Socrates; but these subjects, as you were saying, are difficult to follow at first. I think however, that if I could hear the argument repeated by you once or twice, there would be a substantial agreement between us.
PROTARCHUS: Your comment really seems true, Socrates; but as you mentioned, these topics can be hard to grasp at first. I believe, though, that if I could hear you explain the argument once or twice more, we would likely see eye to eye.
SOCRATES: Yes, and I will try to meet your wish; but, as I would rather not waste time in the enumeration of endless particulars, let me know whether I may not assume as a note of the infinite—
SOCRATES: Sure, and I’ll do my best to fulfill your request; however, since I’d prefer not to spend time going through countless details, please tell me if I can take as a point of the infinite—
PROTARCHUS: What?
Huh?
SOCRATES: I want to know whether such things as appear to us to admit of more or less, or are denoted by the words 'exceedingly,' 'gently,' 'extremely,' and the like, may not be referred to the class of the infinite, which is their unity, for, as was asserted in the previous argument, all things that were divided and dispersed should be brought together, and have the mark or seal of some one nature, if possible, set upon them—do you remember?
SOCRATES: I want to understand whether things that seem to allow for more or less, or are described by terms like 'very,' 'softly,' 'extremely,' and similar words, can be considered part of the infinite, which is their unity. As we discussed in the earlier argument, everything that is divided and scattered should be unified under a single nature or essence, if that's possible—do you remember?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And all things which do not admit of more or less, but admit their opposites, that is to say, first of all, equality, and the equal, or again, the double, or any other ratio of number and measure—all these may, I think, be rightly reckoned by us in the class of the limited or finite; what do you say?
SOCRATES: And everything that can't be more or less, but can accept their opposites, like equality and the equal, or the double, or any other ratio of numbers and measurements—all of these can, I believe, be correctly classified by us as limited or finite; what do you think?
PROTARCHUS: Excellent, Socrates.
Great job, Socrates.
SOCRATES: And now what nature shall we ascribe to the third or compound kind?
SOCRATES: So what nature should we give to the third or mixed kind?
PROTARCHUS: You, I think, will have to tell me that.
PROTARCHUS: I think you're going to have to tell me that.
SOCRATES: Rather God will tell you, if there be any God who will listen to my prayers.
SOCRATES: Instead, God will let you know if there’s any God who will hear my prayers.
PROTARCHUS: Offer up a prayer, then, and think.
PROTARCHUS: Say a prayer now, and reflect.
SOCRATES: I am thinking, Protarchus, and I believe that some God has befriended us.
SOCRATES: I'm thinking, Protarchus, and I believe that some God has become our friend.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean, and what proof have you to offer of what you are saying?
PROTARCHUS: What are you talking about, and what evidence do you have to support what you're saying?
SOCRATES: I will tell you, and do you listen to my words.
SOCRATES: I'll tell you, and you should pay attention to what I'm saying.
PROTARCHUS: Proceed.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead.
SOCRATES: Were we not speaking just now of hotter and colder?
SOCRATES: Weren't we just talking about hot and cold?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: Add to them drier, wetter, more, less, swifter, slower, greater, smaller, and all that in the preceding argument we placed under the unity of more and less.
SOCRATES: Add to them drier, wetter, more, less, swifter, slower, greater, smaller, and all that we previously grouped under the concept of more and less.
PROTARCHUS: In the class of the infinite, you mean?
PROTARCHUS: You mean in the category of the infinite?
SOCRATES: Yes; and now mingle this with the other.
SOCRATES: Yes, and now mix this with the other.
PROTARCHUS: What is the other.
PROTARCHUS: What's the other one?
SOCRATES: The class of the finite which we ought to have brought together as we did the infinite; but, perhaps, it will come to the same thing if we do so now;—when the two are combined, a third will appear.
SOCRATES: We should have gathered the finite just like we did the infinite; but maybe it won't make a difference if we do it now;—when the two come together, a third will emerge.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by the class of the finite?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by the category of the finite?
SOCRATES: The class of the equal and the double, and any class which puts an end to difference and opposition, and by introducing number creates harmony and proportion among the different elements.
SOCRATES: The concept of equality and doubling, along with any idea that eliminates differences and conflicts, and by introducing numbers establishes harmony and balance among the various elements.
PROTARCHUS: I understand; you seem to me to mean that the various opposites, when you mingle with them the class of the finite, takes certain forms.
PROTARCHUS: I get it; it sounds like you're saying that when you mix the different opposites with the finite category, they take on specific forms.
SOCRATES: Yes, that is my meaning.
SOCRATES: Yeah, that’s what I mean.
PROTARCHUS: Proceed.
Go ahead.
SOCRATES: Does not the right participation in the finite give health—in disease, for instance?
SOCRATES: Doesn't the proper involvement in the finite lead to health—in cases of illness, for example?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
SOCRATES: And whereas the high and low, the swift and the slow are infinite or unlimited, does not the addition of the principles aforesaid introduce a limit, and perfect the whole frame of music?
SOCRATES: And since the high and low, the fast and slow are infinite or unlimited, doesn't adding the principles mentioned above impose a limit and perfect the entire structure of music?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: Or, again, when cold and heat prevail, does not the introduction of them take away excess and indefiniteness, and infuse moderation and harmony?
SOCRATES: Or, when cold and heat dominate, doesn’t their presence remove excess and vagueness, and bring in moderation and balance?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And from a like admixture of the finite and infinite come the seasons, and all the delights of life?
SOCRATES: And from a similar mix of the finite and infinite come the seasons and all the joys of life?
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: I omit ten thousand other things, such as beauty and health and strength, and the many beauties and high perfections of the soul: O my beautiful Philebus, the goddess, methinks, seeing the universal wantonness and wickedness of all things, and that there was in them no limit to pleasures and self-indulgence, devised the limit of law and order, whereby, as you say, Philebus, she torments, or as I maintain, delivers the soul.—What think you, Protarchus?
SOCRATES: I’m leaving out countless other aspects, like beauty, health, and strength, along with the many delightful qualities and great virtues of the soul: Oh, my lovely Philebus, it seems to me that the goddess, witnessing the rampant chaos and wickedness in everything, realized there was no boundary to pleasures and self-indulgence, so she created the boundaries of law and order, through which, as you say, Philebus, she torments, or as I believe, frees the soul.—What do you think, Protarchus?
PROTARCHUS: Her ways are much to my mind, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: I really like her ways, Socrates.
SOCRATES: You will observe that I have spoken of three classes?
SOCRATES: Have you noticed that I mentioned three classes?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, I think that I understand you: you mean to say that the infinite is one class, and that the finite is a second class of existences; but what you would make the third I am not so certain.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, I think I get what you're saying: you mean that the infinite is one category, and the finite is another category of existence; but I'm not quite sure what you want to classify as the third.
SOCRATES: That is because the amazing variety of the third class is too much for you, my dear friend; but there was not this difficulty with the infinite, which also comprehended many classes, for all of them were sealed with the note of more and less, and therefore appeared one.
SOCRATES: That's because the incredible variety of the third class is overwhelming for you, my dear friend. But there wasn't this challenge with the infinite, which also included many classes, since they were all marked with the concept of more and less, and thus seemed like one.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: And the finite or limit had not many divisions, and we readily acknowledged it to be by nature one?
SOCRATES: So, the finite or limit doesn't have many divisions, and we easily agreed that it is fundamentally one?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: Yes, indeed; and when I speak of the third class, understand me to mean any offspring of these, being a birth into true being, effected by the measure which the limit introduces.
SOCRATES: Yes, definitely; and when I mention the third class, I mean any descendants of these, representing a birth into true existence, brought about by the measure that the limit establishes.
PROTARCHUS: I understand.
Got it.
SOCRATES: Still there was, as we said, a fourth class to be investigated, and you must assist in the investigation; for does not everything which comes into being, of necessity come into being through a cause?
SOCRATES: Yet, as we mentioned, there was still a fourth category to explore, and you need to help with this exploration; doesn’t everything that comes into existence, by necessity, come into existence due to a cause?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly; for how can there be anything which has no cause?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, definitely; because how can there be anything that has no cause?
SOCRATES: And is not the agent the same as the cause in all except name; the agent and the cause may be rightly called one?
SOCRATES: Isn't the agent the same as the cause, except for the name; can we not rightly call the agent and the cause one?
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And the same may be said of the patient, or effect; we shall find that they too differ, as I was saying, only in name—shall we not?
SOCRATES: The same can be said about the patient or effect; we will find that they also differ, as I mentioned, only in name—right?
PROTARCHUS: We shall.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: The agent or cause always naturally leads, and the patient or effect naturally follows it?
SOCRATES: The agent or cause always leads naturally, and the patient or effect naturally follows it?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Of course.
SOCRATES: Then the cause and what is subordinate to it in generation are not the same, but different?
SOCRATES: So the cause and what comes from it in creation are not the same, but different?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: Did not the things which were generated, and the things out of which they were generated, furnish all the three classes?
SOCRATES: Did the things that were created, and the things they were created from, provide all three categories?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And the creator or cause of them has been satisfactorily proven to be distinct from them,—and may therefore be called a fourth principle?
SOCRATES: So it has been clearly shown that the creator or cause of them is different from them, which means we can refer to it as a fourth principle?
PROTARCHUS: So let us call it.
PROTARCHUS: Let’s go ahead and call it.
SOCRATES: Quite right; but now, having distinguished the four, I think that we had better refresh our memories by recapitulating each of them in order.
SOCRATES: That's true; but now that we've identified the four, I think we should refresh our memories by going over each of them in order.
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Then the first I will call the infinite or unlimited, and the second the finite or limited; then follows the third, an essence compound and generated; and I do not think that I shall be far wrong in speaking of the cause of mixture and generation as the fourth.
SOCRATES: So, the first I'll call the infinite or unlimited, and the second the finite or limited; then comes the third, which is an essence that is both composite and generated; and I don't think I'll be too far off if I refer to the cause of mixture and generation as the fourth.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: And now what is the next question, and how came we hither? Were we not enquiring whether the second place belonged to pleasure or wisdom?
SOCRATES: So, what's the next question, and how did we get here? Weren't we trying to figure out if the second place belongs to pleasure or wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: We were.
We were.
SOCRATES: And now, having determined these points, shall we not be better able to decide about the first and second place, which was the original subject of dispute?
SOCRATES: Now that we've clarified these points, will we be in a better position to decide on the first and second places, which were the original topics of debate?
PROTARCHUS: I dare say.
I bet.
SOCRATES: We said, if you remember, that the mixed life of pleasure and wisdom was the conqueror—did we not?
SOCRATES: Remember, we said that the combination of pleasure and wisdom was the true victor—didn't we?
PROTARCHUS: True.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And we see what is the place and nature of this life and to what class it is to be assigned?
SOCRATES: So, do we understand the place and nature of this life and what category it belongs to?
PROTARCHUS: Beyond a doubt.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: This is evidently comprehended in the third or mixed class; which is not composed of any two particular ingredients, but of all the elements of infinity, bound down by the finite, and may therefore be truly said to comprehend the conqueror life.
SOCRATES: This is clearly part of the third or mixed class; which isn’t made up of just two specific ingredients, but of all the elements of infinity, limited by the finite, and can thus be accurately described as encompassing the life of the conqueror.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: That's accurate.
SOCRATES: And what shall we say, Philebus, of your life which is all sweetness; and in which of the aforesaid classes is that to be placed? Perhaps you will allow me to ask you a question before you answer?
SOCRATES: So, Philebus, what do we say about your life, which is full of sweetness? Which of the categories we've discussed does it fit into? Maybe you'll let me ask you a question before you respond?
PHILEBUS: Let me hear.
PHILEBUS: Tell me more.
SOCRATES: Have pleasure and pain a limit, or do they belong to the class which admits of more and less?
SOCRATES: Do pleasure and pain have a limit, or are they part of a category that allows for more and less?
PHILEBUS: They belong to the class which admits of more, Socrates; for pleasure would not be perfectly good if she were not infinite in quantity and degree.
PHILEBUS: They belong to the category that allows for more, Socrates; because pleasure wouldn’t be wholly good if it weren’t limitless in amount and intensity.
SOCRATES: Nor would pain, Philebus, be perfectly evil. And therefore the infinite cannot be that element which imparts to pleasure some degree of good. But now—admitting, if you like, that pleasure is of the nature of the infinite—in which of the aforesaid classes, O Protarchus and Philebus, can we without irreverence place wisdom and knowledge and mind? And let us be careful, for I think that the danger will be very serious if we err on this point.
SOCRATES: Pain, Philebus, wouldn’t be completely bad either. So, the infinite can’t be what gives pleasure some good qualities. Now—assuming, if you want, that pleasure is like the infinite—where, O Protarchus and Philebus, can we respectfully categorize wisdom, knowledge, and understanding? We need to be cautious, because I believe it would be a serious mistake if we get this wrong.
PHILEBUS: You magnify, Socrates, the importance of your favourite god.
PHILEBUS: You really emphasize, Socrates, how important your favorite god is.
SOCRATES: And you, my friend, are also magnifying your favourite goddess; but still I must beg you to answer the question.
SOCRATES: And you, my friend, are also praising your favorite goddess; but still, I need to ask you to answer the question.
PROTARCHUS: Socrates is quite right, Philebus, and we must submit to him.
PROTARCHUS: Socrates is absolutely correct, Philebus, and we need to agree with him.
PHILEBUS: And did not you, Protarchus, propose to answer in my place?
PHILEBUS: Didn't you, Protarchus, say you would speak for me?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly I did; but I am now in a great strait, and I must entreat you, Socrates, to be our spokesman, and then we shall not say anything wrong or disrespectful of your favourite.
PROTARCHUS: Of course I did; but I'm currently in a tough spot, and I really need you, Socrates, to be our spokesperson, and then we won’t say anything wrong or disrespectful about your favorite.
SOCRATES: I must obey you, Protarchus; nor is the task which you impose a difficult one; but did I really, as Philebus implies, disconcert you with my playful solemnity, when I asked the question to what class mind and knowledge belong?
SOCRATES: I have to listen to you, Protarchus; and the task you’re giving me isn’t a hard one. But did I really, as Philebus suggests, throw you off with my serious teasing when I asked what category mind and knowledge fall into?
PROTARCHUS: You did, indeed, Socrates.
You really did, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Yet the answer is easy, since all philosophers assert with one voice that mind is the king of heaven and earth—in reality they are magnifying themselves. And perhaps they are right. But still I should like to consider the class of mind, if you do not object, a little more fully.
SOCRATES: But the answer is simple, since all philosophers agree that the mind is the ruler of heaven and earth—in truth, they are just inflating their own importance. Maybe they’re right. Still, I’d like to discuss the nature of the mind a bit more if you don’t mind.
PHILEBUS: Take your own course, Socrates, and never mind length; we shall not tire of you.
PHILEBUS: Go ahead, Socrates, and don't worry about how long it takes; we won't get tired of you.
SOCRATES: Very good; let us begin then, Protarchus, by asking a question.
SOCRATES: Great, let's start then, Protarchus, by asking a question.
PROTARCHUS: What question?
PROTARCHUS: Which question?
SOCRATES: Whether all this which they call the universe is left to the guidance of unreason and chance medley, or, on the contrary, as our fathers have declared, ordered and governed by a marvellous intelligence and wisdom.
SOCRATES: Is everything we call the universe just random chaos and chance, or is it, as our ancestors claimed, organized and managed by an amazing intelligence and wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: Wide asunder are the two assertions, illustrious Socrates, for that which you were just now saying to me appears to be blasphemy; but the other assertion, that mind orders all things, is worthy of the aspect of the world, and of the sun, and of the moon, and of the stars and of the whole circle of the heavens; and never will I say or think otherwise.
PROTARCHUS: The two statements are completely different, brilliant Socrates, because what you just said seems like blasphemy to me. However, the other statement—that the mind organizes everything—is in line with the beauty of the world, the sun, the moon, the stars, and the entire sky. I will never say or believe anything else.
SOCRATES: Shall we then agree with them of old time in maintaining this doctrine,—not merely reasserting the notions of others, without risk to ourselves,—but shall we share in the danger, and take our part of the reproach which will await us, when an ingenious individual declares that all is disorder?
SOCRATES: So, should we go along with the ideas of the past and support this belief—not just repeating what others have said with no consequences for ourselves—but should we be willing to face the risks and take on the criticism that will come our way when a clever person claims that everything is chaos?
PROTARCHUS: That would certainly be my wish.
PROTARCHUS: That’s definitely what I hope for.
SOCRATES: Then now please to consider the next stage of the argument.
SOCRATES: Now, please consider the next stage of the argument.
PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.
PROTARCHUS: I'm listening.
SOCRATES: We see that the elements which enter into the nature of the bodies of all animals, fire, water, air, and, as the storm-tossed sailor cries, 'land' (i.e., earth), reappear in the constitution of the world.
SOCRATES: We can see that the basic elements that make up all animal bodies—fire, water, air, and, as the sailor lost at sea shouts, 'land' (meaning earth)—are also present in the structure of the world.
PROTARCHUS: The proverb may be applied to us; for truly the storm gathers over us, and we are at our wit's end.
PROTARCHUS: That saying could definitely apply to us; the storm is closing in, and we're completely at a loss.
SOCRATES: There is something to be remarked about each of these elements.
SOCRATES: There’s something worth noting about each of these elements.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's up?
SOCRATES: Only a small fraction of any one of them exists in us, and that of a mean sort, and not in any way pure, or having any power worthy of its nature. One instance will prove this of all of them; there is fire within us, and in the universe.
SOCRATES: Only a small part of each of them exists in us, and it's just an average version, not pure at all, and lacking any real power that fits its true nature. One example will prove this for all of them; there's fire inside us, and in the universe.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And is not our fire small and weak and mean? But the fire in the universe is wonderful in quantity and beauty, and in every power that fire has.
SOCRATES: Isn't our fire small, weak, and insignificant? But the fire in the universe is amazing in its abundance and beauty, and in all the powers that fire possesses.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: And is the fire in the universe nourished and generated and ruled by the fire in us, or is the fire in you and me, and in other animals, dependent on the universal fire?
SOCRATES: Is the fire in the universe fed, created, and controlled by the fire within us, or is the fire in you and me, and in other animals, reliant on the universal fire?
PROTARCHUS: That is a question which does not deserve an answer.
PROTARCHUS: That's a question that doesn't deserve an answer.
SOCRATES: Right; and you would say the same, if I am not mistaken, of the earth which is in animals and the earth which is in the universe, and you would give a similar reply about all the other elements?
SOCRATES: Correct; and you would say the same, if I'm not mistaken, about the earth that exists in animals and the earth that exists in the universe, and you would give a similar response regarding all the other elements?
PROTARCHUS: Why, how could any man who gave any other be deemed in his senses?
PROTARCHUS: How could anyone who offered anything else be considered sane?
SOCRATES: I do not think that he could—but now go on to the next step. When we saw those elements of which we have been speaking gathered up in one, did we not call them a body?
SOCRATES: I don’t think he could—but now let's move on to the next point. When we saw those elements we've been discussing brought together into one, didn't we call it a body?
PROTARCHUS: We did.
We did.
SOCRATES: And the same may be said of the cosmos, which for the same reason may be considered to be a body, because made up of the same elements.
SOCRATES: The same can be said about the cosmos, which can also be seen as a body since it's made up of the same elements.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: That's definitely true.
SOCRATES: But is our body nourished wholly by this body, or is this body nourished by our body, thence deriving and having the qualities of which we were just now speaking?
SOCRATES: But is our body completely nourished by this body, or is this body nourished by our body, thereby deriving and having the qualities we were just discussing?
PROTARCHUS: That again, Socrates, is a question which does not deserve to be asked.
PROTARCHUS: Well, Socrates, that's a question that shouldn't even be asked.
SOCRATES: Well, tell me, is this question worth asking?
SOCRATES: So, tell me, is this question even worth asking?
PROTARCHUS: What question?
PROTARCHUS: What’s the question?
SOCRATES: May our body be said to have a soul?
SOCRATES: Can we say that our body has a soul?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And whence comes that soul, my dear Protarchus, unless the body of the universe, which contains elements like those in our bodies but in every way fairer, had also a soul? Can there be another source?
SOCRATES: So where does that soul come from, my dear Protarchus, unless the body of the universe, which has elements similar to those in our bodies but in every way more beautiful, also has a soul? Could there be another source?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that is the only source.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, Socrates, that's the only source.
SOCRATES: Why, yes, Protarchus; for surely we cannot imagine that of the four classes, the finite, the infinite, the composition of the two, and the cause, the fourth, which enters into all things, giving to our bodies souls, and the art of self-management, and of healing disease, and operating in other ways to heal and organize, having too all the attributes of wisdom;—we cannot, I say, imagine that whereas the self-same elements exist, both in the entire heaven and in great provinces of the heaven, only fairer and purer, this last should not also in that higher sphere have designed the noblest and fairest things?
SOCRATES: Of course, Protarchus; we can't really think that among the four classes—the finite, the infinite, their combination, and the cause, which is the fourth class that exists in everything, giving our bodies their souls, teaching self-management, healing diseases, and doing many other things to heal and organize, all while embodying wisdom—we can't imagine that with the same elements present in both the whole universe and larger areas of it, which are just clearer and purer, this higher realm wouldn’t also create the most noble and beautiful things?
PROTARCHUS: Such a supposition is quite unreasonable.
PROTARCHUS: That assumption is totally unreasonable.
SOCRATES: Then if this be denied, should we not be wise in adopting the other view and maintaining that there is in the universe a mighty infinite and an adequate limit, of which we have often spoken, as well as a presiding cause of no mean power, which orders and arranges years and seasons and months, and may be justly called wisdom and mind?
SOCRATES: So if that's not the case, shouldn't we be smart to consider the other perspective and believe that there is a vast infinite and a proper limit in the universe, which we've talked about before, as well as a powerful guiding force that organizes and controls years, seasons, and months, and can truly be referred to as wisdom and intelligence?
PROTARCHUS: Most justly.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
SOCRATES: And wisdom and mind cannot exist without soul?
SOCRATES: So wisdom and intellect can't exist without the soul?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: And in the divine nature of Zeus would you not say that there is the soul and mind of a king, because there is in him the power of the cause? And other gods have other attributes, by which they are pleased to be called.
SOCRATES: Would you agree that in the divine nature of Zeus, there exists the soul and mind of a king, since he holds the power of the cause? Other gods have different attributes that they prefer to be known by.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: Do not then suppose that these words are rashly spoken by us, O Protarchus, for they are in harmony with the testimony of those who said of old time that mind rules the universe.
SOCRATES: So don’t think that we’re saying this lightly, Protarchus, because it aligns with what people have said for ages—that the mind governs the universe.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And they furnish an answer to my enquiry; for they imply that mind is the parent of that class of the four which we called the cause of all; and I think that you now have my answer.
SOCRATES: And they provide an answer to my question; because they suggest that the mind is the source of that group of four which we referred to as the cause of everything; and I believe you now have my answer.
PROTARCHUS: I have indeed, and yet I did not observe that you had answered.
PROTARCHUS: I have, but I didn't notice that you had replied.
SOCRATES: A jest is sometimes refreshing, Protarchus, when it interrupts earnest.
SOCRATES: A joke can be a nice break, Protarchus, when it interrupts seriousness.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: I think, friend, that we have now pretty clearly set forth the class to which mind belongs and what is the power of mind.
SOCRATES: I believe, my friend, that we have now clearly outlined the category that the mind falls into and what its capabilities are.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: And the class to which pleasure belongs has also been long ago discovered?
SOCRATES: So, has the category that pleasure belongs to been figured out a long time ago?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And let us remember, too, of both of them, (1) that mind was akin to the cause and of this family; and (2) that pleasure is infinite and belongs to the class which neither has, nor ever will have in itself, a beginning, middle, or end of its own.
SOCRATES: And let’s also remember about both of them, (1) that the mind is related to the cause and this family; and (2) that pleasure is infinite and belongs to a category that has never had, and will never have, a beginning, middle, or end of its own.
PROTARCHUS: I shall be sure to remember.
PROTARCHUS: I'll definitely remember that.
SOCRATES: We must next examine what is their place and under what conditions they are generated. And we will begin with pleasure, since her class was first examined; and yet pleasure cannot be rightly tested apart from pain.
SOCRATES: We should now look into where they come from and the conditions under which they are produced. Let's start with pleasure, since we discussed her category first; however, pleasure can't be accurately measured without considering pain.
PROTARCHUS: If this is the road, let us take it.
PROTARCHUS: If this is the way, let's go for it.
SOCRATES: I wonder whether you would agree with me about the origin of pleasure and pain.
SOCRATES: I'm curious if you would agree with me on where pleasure and pain come from.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: I mean to say that their natural seat is in the mixed class.
SOCRATES: What I’m saying is that their natural place is in the mixed class.
PROTARCHUS: And would you tell me again, sweet Socrates, which of the aforesaid classes is the mixed one?
PROTARCHUS: Could you please remind me, dear Socrates, which of those classes is the mixed one?
SOCRATES: I will, my fine fellow, to the best of my ability.
SOCRATES: I will, my good friend, to the best of my ability.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great.
SOCRATES: Let us then understand the mixed class to be that which we placed third in the list of four.
SOCRATES: So, let’s think of the mixed class as the one we listed third out of the four.
PROTARCHUS: That which followed the infinite and the finite; and in which you ranked health, and, if I am not mistaken, harmony.
PROTARCHUS: What came after the infinite and the finite; and in which you categorized health, and, if I’m not mistaken, harmony.
SOCRATES: Capital; and now will you please to give me your best attention?
SOCRATES: Capital; and now, could you please give me your full attention?
PROTARCHUS: Proceed; I am attending.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead; I'm listening.
SOCRATES: I say that when the harmony in animals is dissolved, there is also a dissolution of nature and a generation of pain.
SOCRATES: I believe that when the balance in animals is disrupted, it leads to a breakdown of nature and the emergence of suffering.
PROTARCHUS: That is very probable.
PROTARCHUS: That seems likely.
SOCRATES: And the restoration of harmony and return to nature is the source of pleasure, if I may be allowed to speak in the fewest and shortest words about matters of the greatest moment.
SOCRATES: Restoring harmony and returning to nature is the source of pleasure, if I may express this in the simplest and briefest way about issues of the utmost importance.
PROTARCHUS: I believe that you are right, Socrates; but will you try to be a little plainer?
PROTARCHUS: I think you're right, Socrates; but could you please be a bit clearer?
SOCRATES: Do not obvious and every-day phenomena furnish the simplest illustration?
SOCRATES: Don't common and everyday events provide the simplest example?
PROTARCHUS: What phenomena do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What events are you talking about?
SOCRATES: Hunger, for example, is a dissolution and a pain.
SOCRATES: Hunger, for instance, is a breakdown and discomfort.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: Whereas eating is a replenishment and a pleasure?
SOCRATES: So, eating is both a way to refuel and a source of enjoyment?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yep.
SOCRATES: Thirst again is a destruction and a pain, but the effect of moisture replenishing the dry place is a pleasure: once more, the unnatural separation and dissolution caused by heat is painful, and the natural restoration and refrigeration is pleasant.
SOCRATES: Thirst is again a source of suffering and discomfort, but the feeling of moisture restoring the dry areas brings pleasure. Similarly, the unnatural separation and breakdown caused by heat is painful, while the natural restoration and cooling is enjoyable.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And the unnatural freezing of the moisture in an animal is pain, and the natural process of resolution and return of the elements to their original state is pleasure. And would not the general proposition seem to you to hold, that the destroying of the natural union of the finite and infinite, which, as I was observing before, make up the class of living beings, is pain, and that the process of return of all things to their own nature is pleasure?
SOCRATES: Freezing an animal's moisture unnaturally causes pain, while the natural process of resolving and bringing the elements back to their original state brings pleasure. Would you not agree that it seems true that breaking the natural unity of the finite and infinite, which, as I mentioned before, constitute living beings, is painful, and that the process of everything returning to its true nature is pleasurable?
PROTARCHUS: Granted; what you say has a general truth.
PROTARCHUS: Okay, what you’re saying is generally true.
SOCRATES: Here then is one kind of pleasures and pains originating severally in the two processes which we have described?
SOCRATES: So, here is one type of pleasure and pain that comes from each of the two processes we've talked about?
PROTARCHUS: Good.
PROTARCHUS: Great.
SOCRATES: Let us next assume that in the soul herself there is an antecedent hope of pleasure which is sweet and refreshing, and an expectation of pain, fearful and anxious.
SOCRATES: Next, let’s assume that within the soul there is a prior hope for pleasure that feels sweet and refreshing, and an anticipation of pain that brings fear and anxiety.
PROTARCHUS: Yes; this is another class of pleasures and pains, which is of the soul only, apart from the body, and is produced by expectation.
PROTARCHUS: Yes; this is another type of pleasure and pain that affects only the soul, separate from the body, and is created by anticipation.
SOCRATES: Right; for in the analysis of these, pure, as I suppose them to be, the pleasures being unalloyed with pain and the pains with pleasure, methinks that we shall see clearly whether the whole class of pleasure is to be desired, or whether this quality of entire desirableness is not rather to be attributed to another of the classes which have been mentioned; and whether pleasure and pain, like heat and cold, and other things of the same kind, are not sometimes to be desired and sometimes not to be desired, as being not in themselves good, but only sometimes and in some instances admitting of the nature of good.
SOCRATES: Exactly; because when we break these down, seeing them as pure, with pleasures free from pain and pains free from pleasure, I think we’ll clearly determine whether we should desire all types of pleasure, or if this quality of being entirely desirable belongs more to one of the other categories we've discussed. Additionally, we need to consider if pleasure and pain, like heat and cold, are not sometimes worth wanting and sometimes not, as they aren’t inherently good, but may only be good in certain situations.
PROTARCHUS: You say most truly that this is the track which the investigation should pursue.
PROTARCHUS: You're absolutely right that this is the path the investigation should take.
SOCRATES: Well, then, assuming that pain ensues on the dissolution, and pleasure on the restoration of the harmony, let us now ask what will be the condition of animated beings who are neither in process of restoration nor of dissolution. And mind what you say: I ask whether any animal who is in that condition can possibly have any feeling of pleasure or pain, great or small?
SOCRATES: Alright, let’s assume that pain follows the breakdown and pleasure follows the restoration of harmony. Now, let’s consider the state of living beings that are neither undergoing restoration nor breakdown. Think carefully about your answer: can any animal in that state actually feel any pleasure or pain, big or small?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: Then here we have a third state, over and above that of pleasure and of pain?
SOCRATES: So, is there a third state, beyond just pleasure and pain?
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Totally true.
SOCRATES: And do not forget that there is such a state; it will make a great difference in our judgment of pleasure, whether we remember this or not. And I should like to say a few words about it.
SOCRATES: And don't forget that there is such a state; it really affects how we judge pleasure, whether we remember this or not. I'd like to say a few words about it.
PROTARCHUS: What have you to say?
PROTARCHUS: What’s your opinion?
SOCRATES: Why, you know that if a man chooses the life of wisdom, there is no reason why he should not live in this neutral state.
SOCRATES: You know that if someone chooses a life of wisdom, there's no reason they shouldn't live in this neutral state.
PROTARCHUS: You mean that he may live neither rejoicing nor sorrowing?
PROTARCHUS: You mean that he can't live either happily or sadly?
SOCRATES: Yes; and if I remember rightly, when the lives were compared, no degree of pleasure, whether great or small, was thought to be necessary to him who chose the life of thought and wisdom.
SOCRATES: Yes; and if I remember correctly, when the lives were compared, no amount of pleasure, whether large or small, was considered essential to the one who chose a life of thought and wisdom.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, certainly, we said so.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, we definitely said that.
SOCRATES: Then he will live without pleasure; and who knows whether this may not be the most divine of all lives?
SOCRATES: Then he will live without pleasure; and who knows if that might not be the most divine life of all?
PROTARCHUS: If so, the gods, at any rate, cannot be supposed to have either joy or sorrow.
PROTARCHUS: If that’s the case, the gods surely can’t be thought to experience joy or sorrow.
SOCRATES: Certainly not—there would be a great impropriety in the assumption of either alternative. But whether the gods are or are not indifferent to pleasure is a point which may be considered hereafter if in any way relevant to the argument, and whatever is the conclusion we will place it to the account of mind in her contest for the second place, should she have to resign the first.
SOCRATES: Absolutely not—assuming either option would be very inappropriate. However, whether the gods care about pleasure or not is something we can look into later if it’s relevant to the discussion, and whatever conclusion we reach, we will attribute it to the mind in its struggle for second place, should it need to give up the first.
PROTARCHUS: Just so.
Got it.
SOCRATES: The other class of pleasures, which as we were saying is purely mental, is entirely derived from memory.
SOCRATES: The other type of pleasures, which we mentioned is purely mental, comes solely from memory.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: I must first of all analyze memory, or rather perception which is prior to memory, if the subject of our discussion is ever to be properly cleared up.
SOCRATES: First, I need to examine memory, or more accurately, perception, which comes before memory, if we're ever going to clarify the topic of our discussion.
PROTARCHUS: How will you proceed?
PROTARCHUS: What's your plan?
SOCRATES: Let us imagine affections of the body which are extinguished before they reach the soul, and leave her unaffected; and again, other affections which vibrate through both soul and body, and impart a shock to both and to each of them.
SOCRATES: Let's think about physical feelings that fade away before they reach the soul, leaving it untouched; and then, other feelings that resonate through both the soul and body, affecting and shocking both of them.
PROTARCHUS: Granted.
PROTARCHUS: Agreed.
SOCRATES: And the soul may be truly said to be oblivious of the first but not of the second?
SOCRATES: So, can we say that the soul is truly unaware of the first but not of the second?
PROTARCHUS: Quite true.
PROTARCHUS: That's absolutely right.
SOCRATES: When I say oblivious, do not suppose that I mean forgetfulness in a literal sense; for forgetfulness is the exit of memory, which in this case has not yet entered; and to speak of the loss of that which is not yet in existence, and never has been, is a contradiction; do you see?
SOCRATES: When I say oblivious, don’t think I mean forgetfulness in a literal way; forgetfulness is the loss of memory, which hasn’t even started here; and to talk about losing something that doesn’t exist yet, and never has, is a contradiction; do you get it?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: Then just be so good as to change the terms.
SOCRATES: Then please go ahead and change the terms.
PROTARCHUS: How shall I change them?
PROTARCHUS: How can I change them?
SOCRATES: Instead of the oblivion of the soul, when you are describing the state in which she is unaffected by the shocks of the body, say unconsciousness.
SOCRATES: Instead of talking about the oblivion of the soul, when you describe the state in which it is unaffected by the shocks of the body, say unconsciousness.
PROTARCHUS: I see.
Got it.
SOCRATES: And the union or communion of soul and body in one feeling and motion would be properly called consciousness?
SOCRATES: So, the connection between the soul and body when they experience the same feelings and actions would be correctly referred to as consciousness?
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: Totally true.
SOCRATES: Then now we know the meaning of the word?
SOCRATES: So, do we now understand the meaning of the word?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And memory may, I think, be rightly described as the preservation of consciousness?
SOCRATES: I think it's fair to describe memory as the storage of consciousness?
PROTARCHUS: Right.
PROTARCHUS: Okay.
SOCRATES: But do we not distinguish memory from recollection?
SOCRATES: But don't we differentiate between memory and recollection?
PROTARCHUS: I think so.
PROTARCHUS: I believe so.
SOCRATES: And do we not mean by recollection the power which the soul has of recovering, when by herself, some feeling which she experienced when in company with the body?
SOCRATES: And by recollection, don’t we mean the ability of the soul to recall a feeling it had when it was in the company of the body?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And when she recovers of herself the lost recollection of some consciousness or knowledge, the recovery is termed recollection and reminiscence?
SOCRATES: And when she regains the lost memory of some awareness or knowledge, that process is called recollection and reminiscence?
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: There is a reason why I say all this.
SOCRATES: There's a reason I say all this.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What’s going on?
SOCRATES: I want to attain the plainest possible notion of pleasure and desire, as they exist in the mind only, apart from the body; and the previous analysis helps to show the nature of both.
SOCRATES: I want to get the simplest understanding of pleasure and desire, as they exist in the mind only, separate from the body; and the earlier analysis helps clarify the nature of both.
PROTARCHUS: Then now, Socrates, let us proceed to the next point.
PROTARCHUS: So, Socrates, let's move on to the next point.
SOCRATES: There are certainly many things to be considered in discussing the generation and whole complexion of pleasure. At the outset we must determine the nature and seat of desire.
SOCRATES: There are definitely a lot of things to think about when we talk about the creation and overall nature of pleasure. First, we need to figure out what desire really is and where it comes from.
PROTARCHUS: Ay; let us enquire into that, for we shall lose nothing.
PROTARCHUS: Sure, let's look into that, because we won't lose anything.
SOCRATES: Nay, Protarchus, we shall surely lose the puzzle if we find the answer.
SOCRATES: No, Protarchus, we will definitely lose the mystery if we discover the answer.
PROTARCHUS: A fair retort; but let us proceed.
PROTARCHUS: That's a good comeback; but let's move on.
SOCRATES: Did we not place hunger, thirst, and the like, in the class of desires?
SOCRATES: Didn’t we categorize hunger, thirst, and similar things as desires?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And yet they are very different; what common nature have we in view when we call them by a single name?
SOCRATES: And yet they are really different; what common nature do we have in mind when we call them by the same name?
PROTARCHUS: By heavens, Socrates, that is a question which is not easily answered; but it must be answered.
PROTARCHUS: Honestly, Socrates, that's a question that's not easy to answer; but it has to be answered.
SOCRATES: Then let us go back to our examples.
SOCRATES: So, let's return to our examples.
PROTARCHUS: Where shall we begin?
PROTARCHUS: Where should we start?
SOCRATES: Do we mean anything when we say 'a man thirsts'?
SOCRATES: Do we really mean anything when we say 'a man is thirsty'?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: We mean to say that he 'is empty'?
SOCRATES: Are we saying that he 'is empty'?
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And is not thirst desire?
SOCRATES: Isn't thirst a form of desire?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, of drink.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, about drinks.
SOCRATES: Would you say of drink, or of replenishment with drink?
SOCRATES: Would you refer to it as a drink or as replenishing with a drink?
PROTARCHUS: I should say, of replenishment with drink.
PROTARCHUS: I would say it's about refilling drinks.
SOCRATES: Then he who is empty desires, as would appear, the opposite of what he experiences; for he is empty and desires to be full?
SOCRATES: So, someone who feels empty wants, it seems, the opposite of what they're going through; they feel empty and want to feel full?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly so.
PROTARCHUS: Definitely.
SOCRATES: But how can a man who is empty for the first time, attain either by perception or memory to any apprehension of replenishment, of which he has no present or past experience?
SOCRATES: But how can a person who is empty for the first time understand, through perception or memory, what it means to be filled, if they have no current or past experience of it?
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
No way.
SOCRATES: And yet he who desires, surely desires something?
SOCRATES: But doesn’t anyone who desires want something?
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: He does not desire that which he experiences, for he experiences thirst, and thirst is emptiness; but he desires replenishment?
SOCRATES: He doesn't want what he experiences, because he feels thirst, and thirst is a lack; but he wants to be fulfilled?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: Then there must be something in the thirsty man which in some way apprehends replenishment?
SOCRATES: So, there must be something in the thirsty person that somehow understands how to be satisfied?
PROTARCHUS: There must.
PROTARCHUS: There definitely must.
SOCRATES: And that cannot be the body, for the body is supposed to be emptied?
SOCRATES: That can't be about the body, since the body is meant to be emptied?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: The only remaining alternative is that the soul apprehends the replenishment by the help of memory; as is obvious, for what other way can there be?
SOCRATES: The only other option is that the soul understands the replenishment through memory; it’s clear, because what other way could there be?
PROTARCHUS: I cannot imagine any other.
PROTARCHUS: I can't think of any other.
SOCRATES: But do you see the consequence?
SOCRATES: But do you see the result?
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's that?
SOCRATES: That there is no such thing as desire of the body.
SOCRATES: That there’s no such thing as desire for the body.
PROTARCHUS: Why so?
PROTARCHUS: Why's that?
SOCRATES: Why, because the argument shows that the endeavour of every animal is to the reverse of his bodily state.
SOCRATES: Because the argument shows that every animal's effort is directed opposite to its physical condition.
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And the impulse which leads him to the opposite of what he is experiencing proves that he has a memory of the opposite state.
SOCRATES: The urge that drives him to do the opposite of what he’s going through shows that he remembers the opposite state.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And the argument, having proved that memory attracts us towards the objects of desire, proves also that the impulses and the desires and the moving principle in every living being have their origin in the soul.
SOCRATES: And the argument, having shown that memory draws us toward the objects of desire, also demonstrates that the impulses, desires, and driving force in every living being originate in the soul.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: The argument will not allow that our body either hungers or thirsts or has any similar experience.
SOCRATES: The argument won't accept that our body either feels hungry or thirsty or has any similar experiences.
PROTARCHUS: Quite right.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: Let me make a further observation; the argument appears to me to imply that there is a kind of life which consists in these affections.
SOCRATES: I’d like to add another observation; it seems to me that the argument suggests there’s a type of life that consists of these feelings.
PROTARCHUS: Of what affections, and of what kind of life, are you speaking?
PROTARCHUS: What feelings and what kind of life are you talking about?
SOCRATES: I am speaking of being emptied and replenished, and of all that relates to the preservation and destruction of living beings, as well as of the pain which is felt in one of these states and of the pleasure which succeeds to it.
SOCRATES: I’m talking about being drained and refilled, and everything that has to do with the survival and destruction of living things, as well as the pain experienced in one of these states and the pleasure that follows.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: And what would you say of the intermediate state?
SOCRATES: And what do you think about the intermediate state?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by 'intermediate'?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by 'in-between'?
SOCRATES: I mean when a person is in actual suffering and yet remembers past pleasures which, if they would only return, would relieve him; but as yet he has them not. May we not say of him, that he is in an intermediate state?
SOCRATES: I mean when someone is actually suffering but still remembers past pleasures that would help them if they could come back; but they don’t have them right now. Can we not say that this person is in a sort of in-between state?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Would you say that he was wholly pained or wholly pleased?
SOCRATES: Would you say that he was completely in pain or completely happy?
PROTARCHUS: Nay, I should say that he has two pains; in his body there is the actual experience of pain, and in his soul longing and expectation.
PROTARCHUS: No, I would say that he has two types of pain; in his body, there is the actual feeling of pain, and in his soul, there is longing and anticipation.
SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus, by the two pains? May not a man who is empty have at one time a sure hope of being filled, and at other times be quite in despair?
SOCRATES: What do you mean, Protarchus, by the two pains? Can’t a person who feels empty sometimes have a strong hope of being fulfilled, and at other times feel complete despair?
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And has he not the pleasure of memory when he is hoping to be filled, and yet in that he is empty is he not at the same time in pain?
SOCRATES: Doesn't he experience the joy of memories when he hopes to be satisfied, and yet doesn't that emptiness also bring him pain at the same time?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: Then man and the other animals have at the same time both pleasure and pain?
SOCRATES: So, both humans and other animals experience pleasure and pain at the same time?
PROTARCHUS: I suppose so.
I guess so.
SOCRATES: But when a man is empty and has no hope of being filled, there will be the double experience of pain. You observed this and inferred that the double experience was the single case possible.
SOCRATES: But when a person feels empty and has no hope of being fulfilled, they will experience pain in two ways. You noticed this and concluded that this double experience was the only possible scenario.
PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.
Absolutely, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Shall the enquiry into these states of feeling be made the occasion of raising a question?
SOCRATES: Should we use the examination of these feelings to bring up a question?
PROTARCHUS: What question?
What question?
SOCRATES: Whether we ought to say that the pleasures and pains of which we are speaking are true or false? or some true and some false?
SOCRATES: Should we say that the pleasures and pains we’re discussing are true or false? Or are some of them true and some false?
PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can there be false pleasures and pains?
PROTARCHUS: But how, Socrates, can there be fake pleasures and pains?
SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, can there be true and false fears, or true and false expectations, or true and false opinions?
SOCRATES: So, Protarchus, how can there be real and fake fears, or real and fake expectations, or real and fake opinions?
PROTARCHUS: I grant that opinions may be true or false, but not pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: I agree that opinions can be true or false, but pleasures cannot.
SOCRATES: What do you mean? I am afraid that we are raising a very serious enquiry.
SOCRATES: What do you mean? I’m worried that we’re getting into a really serious discussion.
PROTARCHUS: There I agree.
I agree there.
SOCRATES: And yet, my boy, for you are one of Philebus' boys, the point to be considered, is, whether the enquiry is relevant to the argument.
SOCRATES: And yet, my boy, since you are one of Philebus' boys, the thing we need to think about is whether the inquiry is relevant to the argument.
PROTARCHUS: Surely.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: No tedious and irrelevant discussion can be allowed; what is said should be pertinent.
SOCRATES: We can’t have long-winded and off-topic conversations; what we discuss needs to be relevant.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
Got it.
SOCRATES: I am always wondering at the question which has now been raised.
SOCRATES: I’m always curious about the question that’s just been brought up.
PROTARCHUS: How so?
PROTARCHUS: How's that?
SOCRATES: Do you deny that some pleasures are false, and others true?
SOCRATES: Do you really think that some pleasures are fake while others are real?
PROTARCHUS: To be sure I do.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: Would you say that no one ever seemed to rejoice and yet did not rejoice, or seemed to feel pain and yet did not feel pain, sleeping or waking, mad or lunatic?
SOCRATES: Would you say that no one ever appeared to be happy but wasn't truly happy, or seemed to be in pain but wasn't really in pain, whether they were sleeping or awake, sane or insane?
PROTARCHUS: So we have always held, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: So we've always believed, Socrates.
SOCRATES: But were you right? Shall we enquire into the truth of your opinion?
SOCRATES: But were you correct? Should we look into the truth of your opinion?
PROTARCHUS: I think that we should.
PROTARCHUS: I believe we should.
SOCRATES: Let us then put into more precise terms the question which has arisen about pleasure and opinion. Is there such a thing as opinion?
SOCRATES: Let's clarify the question that has come up about pleasure and opinion. Is there really such a thing as opinion?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And such a thing as pleasure?
SOCRATES: What about pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And an opinion must be of something?
SOCRATES: So an opinion has to be about something?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: For real.
SOCRATES: And a man must be pleased by something?
SOCRATES: So, a person has to find joy in something?
PROTARCHUS: Quite correct.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly right.
SOCRATES: And whether the opinion be right or wrong, makes no difference; it will still be an opinion?
SOCRATES: Whether the opinion is right or wrong doesn't matter; it's still just an opinion?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And he who is pleased, whether he is rightly pleased or not, will always have a real feeling of pleasure?
SOCRATES: So, when someone is happy, whether their happiness is justified or not, they will always experience a genuine sense of pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is also quite true.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that's so true.
SOCRATES: Then, how can opinion be both true and false, and pleasure true only, although pleasure and opinion are both equally real?
SOCRATES: So, how can an opinion be both true and false, while pleasure is only true, even though both pleasure and opinion are equally real?
PROTARCHUS: Yes; that is the question.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that’s the key issue.
SOCRATES: You mean that opinion admits of truth and falsehood, and hence becomes not merely opinion, but opinion of a certain quality; and this is what you think should be examined?
SOCRATES: You mean that an opinion can be true or false, which makes it more than just an opinion; it becomes an opinion of a certain quality, and this is what you believe should be examined?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And further, even if we admit the existence of qualities in other objects, may not pleasure and pain be simple and devoid of quality?
SOCRATES: And also, even if we accept that other objects have qualities, could pleasure and pain not be simple and lack any qualities?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly.
Got it.
SOCRATES: But there is no difficulty in seeing that pleasure and pain as well as opinion have qualities, for they are great or small, and have various degrees of intensity; as was indeed said long ago by us.
SOCRATES: It's clear that pleasure and pain, just like opinions, have qualities because they can be greater or smaller and come in different levels of intensity, as we mentioned a long time ago.
PROTARCHUS: Quite true.
PROTARCHUS: That's very true.
SOCRATES: And if badness attaches to any of them, Protarchus, then we should speak of a bad opinion or of a bad pleasure?
SOCRATES: And if any of them has a flaw, Protarchus, should we then talk about a bad opinion or a bad pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Quite true, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: That's true, Socrates.
SOCRATES: And if rightness attaches to any of them, should we not speak of a right opinion or right pleasure; and in like manner of the reverse of rightness?
SOCRATES: And if correctness belongs to any of them, shouldn't we talk about a correct opinion or correct pleasure; and similarly for the opposite of correctness?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
SOCRATES: And if the thing opined be erroneous, might we not say that the opinion, being erroneous, is not right or rightly opined?
SOCRATES: And if the opinion is wrong, can we not say that the opinion, being wrong, is neither correct nor properly formed?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: And if we see a pleasure or pain which errs in respect of its object, shall we call that right or good, or by any honourable name?
SOCRATES: And if we encounter a pleasure or pain that is mistaken in terms of its object, should we call that right or good, or give it any respectable name?
PROTARCHUS: Not if the pleasure is mistaken; how could we?
PROTARCHUS: Not if the pleasure is misunderstood; how could we?
SOCRATES: And surely pleasure often appears to accompany an opinion which is not true, but false?
SOCRATES: And it seems that pleasure often comes with beliefs that aren't true, right?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly it does; and in that case, Socrates, as we were saying, the opinion is false, but no one could call the actual pleasure false.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely it does; and in that case, Socrates, as we were saying, the opinion is false, but no one could say that the actual pleasure is false.
SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus, do you rush to the defence of pleasure!
SOCRATES: How eagerly, Protarchus, you rush to defend pleasure!
PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, I only repeat what I hear.
PROTARCHUS: No, Socrates, I'm just saying what I hear.
SOCRATES: And is there no difference, my friend, between that pleasure which is associated with right opinion and knowledge, and that which is often found in all of us associated with falsehood and ignorance?
SOCRATES: So, isn't there a difference, my friend, between the pleasure that comes from having the right opinion and knowledge, and the pleasure that we often experience from falsehood and ignorance?
PROTARCHUS: There must be a very great difference, between them.
PROTARCHUS: There has to be a huge difference between them.
SOCRATES: Then, now let us proceed to contemplate this difference.
SOCRATES: Alright, let's go ahead and think about this difference.
PROTARCHUS: Lead, and I will follow.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead, and I’ll follow.
SOCRATES: Well, then, my view is—
SOCRATES: Okay, my view is—
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: We agree—do we not?—that there is such a thing as false, and also such a thing as true opinion?
SOCRATES: We agree—don't we?—that there is such a thing as false opinion and also such a thing as true opinion?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And pleasure and pain, as I was just now saying, are often consequent upon these—upon true and false opinion, I mean.
SOCRATES: As I was just saying, pleasure and pain often follow from these—I'm talking about true and false opinions.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And do not opinion and the endeavour to form an opinion always spring from memory and perception?
SOCRATES: Don't opinions and the effort to form an opinion always come from memory and perception?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
SOCRATES: Might we imagine the process to be something of this nature?
SOCRATES: Could we think of the process as something like this?
PROTARCHUS: Of what nature?
PROTARCHUS: What kind?
SOCRATES: An object may be often seen at a distance not very clearly, and the seer may want to determine what it is which he sees.
SOCRATES: Sometimes, when you look at something from a distance, it isn't very clear, and you might want to figure out exactly what it is that you're seeing.
PROTARCHUS: Very likely.
PROTARCHUS: Probably.
SOCRATES: Soon he begins to interrogate himself.
SOCRATES: Soon he starts to question himself.
PROTARCHUS: In what manner?
PROTARCHUS: How so?
SOCRATES: He asks himself—'What is that which appears to be standing by the rock under the tree?' This is the question which he may be supposed to put to himself when he sees such an appearance.
SOCRATES: He asks himself—'What is that which seems to be standing by the rock under the tree?' This is the question he might ask himself when he sees such a sight.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: To which he may guess the right answer, saying as if in a whisper to himself—'It is a man.'
SOCRATES: He might come up with the right answer, murmuring to himself, "It’s a man."
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Awesome.
SOCRATES: Or again, he may be misled, and then he will say—'No, it is a figure made by the shepherds.'
SOCRATES: Or he might be mistaken, and then he will say—'No, it's a figure created by the shepherds.'
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yep.
SOCRATES: And if he has a companion, he repeats his thought to him in articulate sounds, and what was before an opinion, has now become a proposition.
SOCRATES: And if he has a friend, he expresses his thoughts to him in clear words, and what was once just an opinion has now turned into a statement.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: But if he be walking alone when these thoughts occur to him, he may not unfrequently keep them in his mind for a considerable time.
SOCRATES: But if he is walking alone when these thoughts come to him, he may often hold onto them for a long time.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Totally agree.
SOCRATES: Well, now, I wonder whether you would agree in my explanation of this phenomenon.
SOCRATES: So, I’m curious if you would agree with my explanation of this phenomenon.
PROTARCHUS: What is your explanation?
PROTARCHUS: What's your explanation?
SOCRATES: I think that the soul at such times is like a book.
SOCRATES: I believe that the soul, during those moments, is similar to a book.
PROTARCHUS: How so?
PROTARCHUS: How's that?
SOCRATES: Memory and perception meet, and they and their attendant feelings seem to almost to write down words in the soul, and when the inscribing feeling writes truly, then true opinion and true propositions which are the expressions of opinion come into our souls—but when the scribe within us writes falsely, the result is false.
SOCRATES: Memory and perception come together, and they and the feelings that accompany them seem to almost etch words into our souls. When this inscribing feeling is accurate, true opinions and true statements, which reflect those opinions, enter our souls. But when the scribe within us writes inaccurately, the outcome is false.
PROTARCHUS: I quite assent and agree to your statement.
PROTARCHUS: I totally agree with what you said.
SOCRATES: I must bespeak your favour also for another artist, who is busy at the same time in the chambers of the soul.
SOCRATES: I also need to ask for your support for another artist who is working in the depths of the soul at the same time.
PROTARCHUS: Who is he?
Who is this guy?
SOCRATES: The painter, who, after the scribe has done his work, draws images in the soul of the things which he has described.
SOCRATES: The painter, who, after the writer has finished his work, creates images in the mind of the things he has described.
PROTARCHUS: But when and how does he do this?
PROTARCHUS: But when and how does he do this?
SOCRATES: When a man, besides receiving from sight or some other sense certain opinions or statements, sees in his mind the images of the subjects of them;—is not this a very common mental phenomenon?
SOCRATES: When a person, in addition to getting opinions or statements through sight or another sense, envisions the images of those subjects in their mind—isn't this a pretty common mental occurrence?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And the images answering to true opinions and words are true, and to false opinions and words false; are they not?
SOCRATES: So, the images that correspond to true opinions and words are true, and those that correspond to false opinions and words are false, right?
PROTARCHUS: They are.
They are.
SOCRATES: If we are right so far, there arises a further question.
SOCRATES: If we’re correct up to this point, then another question comes up.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: Whether we experience the feeling of which I am speaking only in relation to the present and the past, or in relation to the future also?
SOCRATES: Do we feel the way I'm talking about only about the present and the past, or do we also feel it about the future?
PROTARCHUS: I should say in relation to all times alike.
PROTARCHUS: I would say that applies to all times equally.
SOCRATES: Have not purely mental pleasures and pains been described already as in some cases anticipations of the bodily ones; from which we may infer that anticipatory pleasures and pains have to do with the future?
SOCRATES: Haven't purely mental pleasures and pains already been described as, in some cases, anticipations of physical ones? From this, can we conclude that anticipatory pleasures and pains are related to the future?
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And do all those writings and paintings which, as we were saying a little while ago, are produced in us, relate to the past and present only, and not to the future?
SOCRATES: So, do all those writings and paintings that we talked about a little while ago only relate to the past and present, and not to the future?
PROTARCHUS: To the future, very much.
PROTARCHUS: To the future, for sure.
SOCRATES: When you say, 'Very much,' you mean to imply that all these representations are hopes about the future, and that mankind are filled with hopes in every stage of existence?
SOCRATES: When you say, 'Very much,' you mean to suggest that all these representations are hopes for the future, and that people are filled with hopes at every stage of life?
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: Answer me another question.
SOCRATES: Answer me one more question.
PROTARCHUS: What question?
PROTARCHUS: Which question?
SOCRATES: A just and pious and good man is the friend of the gods; is he not?
SOCRATES: A just, pious, and good person is a friend of the gods, right?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly he is.
Definitely he is.
SOCRATES: And the unjust and utterly bad man is the reverse?
SOCRATES: So, the unjust and completely bad person is the opposite?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And all men, as we were saying just now, are always filled with hopes?
SOCRATES: So, as we were just saying, everyone is always filled with hopes?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
For sure.
SOCRATES: And these hopes, as they are termed, are propositions which exist in the minds of each of us?
SOCRATES: So these hopes, as they’re called, are ideas that exist in each of our minds?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And the fancies of hope are also pictured in us; a man may often have a vision of a heap of gold, and pleasures ensuing, and in the picture there may be a likeness of himself mightily rejoicing over his good fortune.
SOCRATES: The dreams of hope are also reflected in us; a person may often envision a pile of gold, along with the pleasures that follow, and in that vision, there might be an image of himself joyfully celebrating his good luck.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And may we not say that the good, being friends of the gods, have generally true pictures presented to them, and the bad false pictures?
SOCRATES: Can't we say that the good, being friends of the gods, generally have true images shown to them, while the bad receive false ones?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: The bad, too, have pleasures painted in their fancy as well as the good; but I presume that they are false pleasures.
SOCRATES: The bad also imagine pleasures just like the good do; but I think those pleasures are not real.
PROTARCHUS: They are.
They're.
SOCRATES: The bad then commonly delight in false pleasures, and the good in true pleasures?
SOCRATES: So, do bad people typically enjoy false pleasures, while good people enjoy true pleasures?
PROTARCHUS: Doubtless.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: Then upon this view there are false pleasures in the souls of men which are a ludicrous imitation of the true, and there are pains of a similar character?
SOCRATES: So, based on this idea, there are fake pleasures in people's souls that are a silly imitation of the real ones, and are there pains of a similar kind?
PROTARCHUS: There are.
There are.
SOCRATES: And did we not allow that a man who had an opinion at all had a real opinion, but often about things which had no existence either in the past, present, or future?
SOCRATES: And didn’t we agree that a person who had any opinion at all had a genuine opinion, but often about things that didn’t exist in the past, present, or future?
PROTARCHUS: Quite true.
PROTARCHUS: Totally true.
SOCRATES: And this was the source of false opinion and opining; am I not right?
SOCRATES: And this was the root of misunderstanding and opinions; am I correct?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And must we not attribute to pleasure and pain a similar real but illusory character?
SOCRATES: Don't we have to consider that pleasure and pain have a similar real but misleading nature?
PROTARCHUS: How do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: I mean to say that a man must be admitted to have real pleasure who is pleased with anything or anyhow; and he may be pleased about things which neither have nor have ever had any real existence, and, more often than not, are never likely to exist.
SOCRATES: What I’m saying is that a person can genuinely enjoy something if they find pleasure in anything, in any way. They might take pleasure in things that don’t actually exist, never have existed, and probably never will exist.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that again is undeniable.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, that's definitely true.
SOCRATES: And may not the same be said about fear and anger and the like; are they not often false?
SOCRATES: Can the same be said about fear and anger and similar feelings? Aren't they often misleading?
PROTARCHUS: Quite so.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: And can opinions be good or bad except in as far as they are true or false?
SOCRATES: Can opinions be good or bad unless they are true or false?
PROTARCHUS: In no other way.
PROTARCHUS: No other way.
SOCRATES: Nor can pleasures be conceived to be bad except in so far as they are false.
SOCRATES: Pleasures can only be considered bad to the extent that they are misleading.
PROTARCHUS: Nay, Socrates, that is the very opposite of truth; for no one would call pleasures and pains bad because they are false, but by reason of some other great corruption to which they are liable.
PROTARCHUS: No, Socrates, that's the exact opposite of the truth; no one would label pleasures and pains as bad just because they are deceptive, but because of a deeper corruption that they can lead to.
SOCRATES: Well, of pleasures which are corrupt and caused by corruption we will hereafter speak, if we care to continue the enquiry; for the present I would rather show by another argument that there are many false pleasures existing or coming into existence in us, because this may assist our final decision.
SOCRATES: Alright, we can discuss the corrupt pleasures caused by corruption later if we choose to continue the discussion. For now, I’d prefer to present another argument that proves there are many false pleasures either existing in us or emerging. This might help us with our final conclusion.
PROTARCHUS: Very true; that is to say, if there are such pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: That's right; that is, if such pleasures actually exist.
SOCRATES: I think that there are, Protarchus; but this is an opinion which should be well assured, and not rest upon a mere assertion.
SOCRATES: I believe there are, Protarchus; but this is an opinion that should be well-founded and not based on just a claim.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Great!
SOCRATES: Then now, like wrestlers, let us approach and grasp this new argument.
SOCRATES: So now, like wrestlers, let’s tackle and take hold of this new argument.
PROTARCHUS: Proceed.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead.
SOCRATES: We were maintaining a little while since, that when desires, as they are termed, exist in us, then the body has separate feelings apart from the soul—do you remember?
SOCRATES: We were just saying that when desires, as we call them, are present in us, the body has distinct feelings separate from the soul—do you remember?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, I remember that you said so.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, I remember you said that.
SOCRATES: And the soul was supposed to desire the opposite of the bodily state, while the body was the source of any pleasure or pain which was experienced.
SOCRATES: And the soul was thought to desire the opposite of the physical state, while the body was the source of any pleasure or pain that was felt.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: Then now you may infer what happens in such cases.
SOCRATES: So now you can figure out what happens in situations like these.
PROTARCHUS: What am I to infer?
PROTARCHUS: What should I take away from this?
SOCRATES: That in such cases pleasures and pains come simultaneously; and there is a juxtaposition of the opposite sensations which correspond to them, as has been already shown.
SOCRATES: In situations like these, pleasures and pains occur at the same time; there's a clash of opposite feelings that relate to them, as we've already demonstrated.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And there is another point to which we have agreed.
SOCRATES: And there's another point we've agreed on.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: That pleasure and pain both admit of more and less, and that they are of the class of infinites.
SOCRATES: Pleasure and pain can vary in intensity, and they belong to the category of infinities.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly, we said so.
PROTARCHUS: Of course, we said that.
SOCRATES: But how can we rightly judge of them?
SOCRATES: But how can we accurately judge them?
PROTARCHUS: How can we?
PROTARCHUS: How do we do that?
SOCRATES: Is it our intention to judge of their comparative importance and intensity, measuring pleasure against pain, and pain against pain, and pleasure against pleasure?
SOCRATES: Are we planning to evaluate their relative significance and intensity, comparing pleasure to pain, pain to pain, and pleasure to pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, such is our intention, and we shall judge of them accordingly.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that’s our plan, and we’ll evaluate them based on that.
SOCRATES: Well, take the case of sight. Does not the nearness or distance of magnitudes obscure their true proportions, and make us opine falsely; and do we not find the same illusion happening in the case of pleasures and pains?
SOCRATES: Well, think about sight. Doesn’t the closeness or distance of things distort their true sizes and make us misjudge them? Don’t we see the same kind of illusion when it comes to pleasures and pains?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and in a degree far greater.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, Socrates, and even more so.
SOCRATES: Then what we are now saying is the opposite of what we were saying before.
SOCRATES: So what we're saying now is the opposite of what we said before.
PROTARCHUS: What was that?
PROTARCHUS: What was that about?
SOCRATES: Then the opinions were true and false, and infected the pleasures and pains with their own falsity.
SOCRATES: So, the opinions were either true or false, and they contaminated the pleasures and pains with their own falsehood.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: That's definitely true.
SOCRATES: But now it is the pleasures which are said to be true and false because they are seen at various distances, and subjected to comparison; the pleasures appear to be greater and more vehement when placed side by side with the pains, and the pains when placed side by side with the pleasures.
SOCRATES: But now the pleasures are considered true or false because they are viewed from different perspectives and compared; pleasures seem greater and more intense when lined up next to pains, and pains seem that way when compared to pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly, and for the reason which you mention.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely, and for the reason you just stated.
SOCRATES: And suppose you part off from pleasures and pains the element which makes them appear to be greater or less than they really are: you will acknowledge that this element is illusory, and you will never say that the corresponding excess or defect of pleasure or pain is real or true.
SOCRATES: Now, if you separate the pleasures and pains from the element that makes them seem bigger or smaller than they actually are, you'll recognize that this element is an illusion, and you won't claim that the excessive or deficient feelings of pleasure or pain are real or true.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: Next let us see whether in another direction we may not find pleasures and pains existing and appearing in living beings, which are still more false than these.
SOCRATES: Next, let’s explore if we can find pleasures and pains in living beings that are even more deceptive than these.
PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how shall we find them?
PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how do we find them?
SOCRATES: If I am not mistaken, I have often repeated that pains and aches and suffering and uneasiness of all sorts arise out of a corruption of nature caused by concretions, and dissolutions, and repletions, and evacuations, and also by growth and decay?
SOCRATES: If I'm not mistaken, I've often said that pain, discomfort, and all kinds of suffering come from a disruption of nature caused by buildups, breakdowns, excesses, and eliminations, as well as by growth and decay?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that has been often said.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that’s been said a lot.
SOCRATES: And we have also agreed that the restoration of the natural state is pleasure?
SOCRATES: So we've also agreed that returning to the natural state is pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Right.
PROTARCHUS: Okay.
SOCRATES: But now let us suppose an interval of time at which the body experiences none of these changes.
SOCRATES: But now let's imagine a period of time during which the body doesn’t undergo any of these changes.
PROTARCHUS: When can that be, Socrates?
PROTARCHUS: When will that happen, Socrates?
SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus, does not help the argument.
SOCRATES: Your question, Protarchus, doesn't contribute to the discussion.
PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?
PROTARCHUS: Why not, Socrates?
SOCRATES: Because it does not prevent me from repeating mine.
SOCRATES: Because it doesn’t stop me from saying mine again.
PROTARCHUS: And what was that?
PROTARCHUS: What was that?
SOCRATES: Why, Protarchus, admitting that there is no such interval, I may ask what would be the necessary consequence if there were?
SOCRATES: Well, Protarchus, if we assume there's no such interval, can I ask what would happen if there really were one?
PROTARCHUS: You mean, what would happen if the body were not changed either for good or bad?
PROTARCHUS: You mean, what would it be like if the body didn't change at all, either for better or worse?
SOCRATES: Yes.
SOCRATES: Yep.
PROTARCHUS: Why then, Socrates, I should suppose that there would be neither pleasure nor pain.
PROTARCHUS: So, Socrates, I'm thinking that there would be no pleasure or pain at all.
SOCRATES: Very good; but still, if I am not mistaken, you do assert that we must always be experiencing one of them; that is what the wise tell us; for, say they, all things are ever flowing up and down.
SOCRATES: That's great; but if I'm not mistaken, you do claim that we must always be experiencing one of them; that's what the wise say; because, they say, everything is constantly flowing up and down.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, and their words are of no mean authority.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, and their words carry a lot of weight.
SOCRATES: Of course, for they are no mean authorities themselves; and I should like to avoid the brunt of their argument. Shall I tell you how I mean to escape from them? And you shall be the partner of my flight.
SOCRATES: Definitely, because they are quite knowledgeable themselves, and I want to steer clear of their main argument. Should I share how I plan to get away from them? And you'll be my partner in this escape.
PROTARCHUS: How?
PROTARCHUS: How so?
SOCRATES: To them we will say: 'Good; but are we, or living things in general, always conscious of what happens to us—for example, of our growth, or the like? Are we not, on the contrary, almost wholly unconscious of this and similar phenomena?' You must answer for them.
SOCRATES: We'll say to them: 'Alright; but do we, or living things in general, always realize what happens to us—like our growth or similar things? Aren't we, on the contrary, mostly unaware of this and other similar events?' You need to answer for them.
PROTARCHUS: The latter alternative is the true one.
PROTARCHUS: The second option is the correct one.
SOCRATES: Then we were not right in saying, just now, that motions going up and down cause pleasures and pains?
SOCRATES: So, we weren’t right earlier when we said that movements going up and down cause pleasure and pain?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: A better and more unexceptionable way of speaking will be—
SOCRATES: A better and more acceptable way to say this is—
PROTARCHUS: What?
Huh?
SOCRATES: If we say that the great changes produce pleasures and pains, but that the moderate and lesser ones do neither.
SOCRATES: If we say that significant changes bring about pleasures and pains, but that moderate and smaller ones do neither.
PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is the more correct mode of speaking.
PROTARCHUS: That’s the better way to put it, Socrates.
SOCRATES: But if this be true, the life to which I was just now referring again appears.
SOCRATES: But if this is true, the life I just mentioned comes up again.
PROTARCHUS: What life?
What life are you talking about?
SOCRATES: The life which we affirmed to be devoid either of pain or of joy.
SOCRATES: The life that we said has no pain or joy.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: We may assume then that there are three lives, one pleasant, one painful, and the third which is neither; what say you?
SOCRATES: So we can assume that there are three types of lives: one that is pleasurable, one that is painful, and one that is neither. What do you think?
PROTARCHUS: I should say as you do that there are three of them.
PROTARCHUS: I would agree with you that there are three of them.
SOCRATES: But if so, the negation of pain will not be the same with pleasure.
SOCRATES: But if that's the case, then the absence of pain isn't the same as pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: Then when you hear a person saying, that always to live without pain is the pleasantest of all things, what would you understand him to mean by that statement?
SOCRATES: So when you hear someone say that living without pain is the best thing ever, what do you think they mean by that?
PROTARCHUS: I think that by pleasure he must mean the negative of pain.
PROTARCHUS: I think he must mean that pleasure is the absence of pain.
SOCRATES: Let us take any three things; or suppose that we embellish a little and call the first gold, the second silver, and there shall be a third which is neither.
SOCRATES: Let's pick any three things; or let’s get a bit creative and call the first one gold, the second silver, and we'll have a third that is neither.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great.
SOCRATES: Now, can that which is neither be either gold or silver?
SOCRATES: So, can something that is neither be gold or silver?
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
PROTARCHUS: No way.
SOCRATES: No more can that neutral or middle life be rightly or reasonably spoken or thought of as pleasant or painful.
SOCRATES: We can no longer properly or logically consider that neutral or middle life as either pleasant or painful.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: And yet, my friend, there are, as we know, persons who say and think so.
SOCRATES: And yet, my friend, there are, as we know, people who say and think that way.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Of course.
SOCRATES: And do they think that they have pleasure when they are free from pain?
SOCRATES: Do they really believe they feel pleasure when they’re free from pain?
PROTARCHUS: They say so.
They say that.
SOCRATES: And they must think or they would not say that they have pleasure.
SOCRATES: They must think, or else they wouldn't claim to feel pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: I suppose not.
I guess not.
SOCRATES: And yet if pleasure and the negation of pain are of distinct natures, they are wrong.
SOCRATES: And yet if pleasure and the absence of pain are fundamentally different, they are mistaken.
PROTARCHUS: But they are undoubtedly of distinct natures.
PROTARCHUS: But they definitely have different natures.
SOCRATES: Then shall we take the view that they are three, as we were just now saying, or that they are two only—the one being a state of pain, which is an evil, and the other a cessation of pain, which is of itself a good, and is called pleasant?
SOCRATES: So, should we consider that there are three options, as we just discussed, or just two—the first being a state of pain, which is a bad thing, and the second being a relief from pain, which is a good thing in itself and is called pleasant?
PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we ask the question at all? I do not see the reason.
PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, are we asking this question at all? I don't see the point.
SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly never heard of certain enemies of our friend Philebus.
SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, clearly haven’t heard about some enemies of our friend Philebus.
PROTARCHUS: And who may they be?
PROTARCHUS: So, who are they?
SOCRATES: Certain persons who are reputed to be masters in natural philosophy, who deny the very existence of pleasure.
SOCRATES: Some people who are considered experts in natural philosophy deny that pleasure even exists.
PROTARCHUS: Indeed!
PROTARCHUS: Totally!
SOCRATES: They say that what the school of Philebus calls pleasures are all of them only avoidances of pain.
SOCRATES: They say that what the Philebus school refers to as pleasures are simply just ways to avoid pain.
PROTARCHUS: And would you, Socrates, have us agree with them?
PROTARCHUS: So, Socrates, should we go along with them?
SOCRATES: Why, no, I would rather use them as a sort of diviners, who divine the truth, not by rules of art, but by an instinctive repugnance and extreme detestation which a noble nature has of the power of pleasure, in which they think that there is nothing sound, and her seductive influence is declared by them to be witchcraft, and not pleasure. This is the use which you may make of them. And when you have considered the various grounds of their dislike, you shall hear from me what I deem to be true pleasures. Having thus examined the nature of pleasure from both points of view, we will bring her up for judgment.
SOCRATES: Well, no, I’d rather think of them as sort of diviners who recognize the truth, not through technical rules, but by an instinctive aversion and strong dislike that a noble nature has towards the power of pleasure. They believe that there's nothing truly good in it, and they view its enticing influence as witchcraft rather than genuine pleasure. This is how you can use their insights. After you've reflected on their various reasons for disliking pleasure, I’ll share what I consider to be true pleasures. Once we’ve examined the nature of pleasure from both perspectives, we will bring her up for judgment.
PROTARCHUS: Well said.
Nice one.
SOCRATES: Then let us enter into an alliance with these philosophers and follow in the track of their dislike. I imagine that they would say something of this sort; they would begin at the beginning, and ask whether, if we wanted to know the nature of any quality, such as hardness, we should be more likely to discover it by looking at the hardest things, rather than at the least hard? You, Protarchus, shall answer these severe gentlemen as you answer me.
SOCRATES: Then let's team up with these philosophers and follow their lead on what they dislike. I think they'd say something like this; they'd start from the beginning and ask whether, if we wanted to understand the nature of any quality, like hardness, we would be more likely to figure it out by examining the hardest things or the least hard ones. You, Protarchus, should respond to these serious gentlemen just as you respond to me.
PROTARCHUS: By all means, and I reply to them, that you should look at the greatest instances.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely, and I respond to them that you should consider the most significant examples.
SOCRATES: Then if we want to see the true nature of pleasures as a class, we should not look at the most diluted pleasures, but at the most extreme and most vehement?
SOCRATES: So if we want to understand the true nature of pleasures as a category, we shouldn't focus on the mildest pleasures, but rather on the most intense and powerful ones?
PROTARCHUS: In that every one will agree.
PROTARCHUS: Everyone will agree on that.
SOCRATES: And the obvious instances of the greatest pleasures, as we have often said, are the pleasures of the body?
SOCRATES: And the most obvious examples of the greatest pleasures, as we have often said, are the pleasures of the body?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And are they felt by us to be or become greater, when we are sick or when we are in health? And here we must be careful in our answer, or we shall come to grief.
SOCRATES: Do we feel that they are greater when we are sick or when we are healthy? We need to be careful with our answer, or we might end up in trouble.
PROTARCHUS: How will that be?
PROTARCHUS: How will that happen?
SOCRATES: Why, because we might be tempted to answer, 'When we are in health.'
SOCRATES: Well, we might be tempted to say, 'When we're healthy.'
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is the natural answer.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that's the natural response.
SOCRATES: Well, but are not those pleasures the greatest of which mankind have the greatest desires?
SOCRATES: Well, aren't those pleasures the ones that people desire the most?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: And do not people who are in a fever, or any similar illness, feel cold or thirst or other bodily affections more intensely? Am I not right in saying that they have a deeper want and greater pleasure in the satisfaction of their want?
SOCRATES: Don't people who have a fever or any similar illness feel cold or thirsty or other physical sensations more intensely? Am I wrong to say that they have a stronger need and greater pleasure when that need is met?
PROTARCHUS: That is obvious as soon as it is said.
PROTARCHUS: That’s clear as soon as you say it.
SOCRATES: Well, then, shall we not be right in saying, that if a person would wish to see the greatest pleasures he ought to go and look, not at health, but at disease? And here you must distinguish:—do not imagine that I mean to ask whether those who are very ill have more pleasures than those who are well, but understand that I am speaking of the magnitude of pleasure; I want to know where pleasures are found to be most intense. For, as I say, we have to discover what is pleasure, and what they mean by pleasure who deny her very existence.
SOCRATES: So, should we say that if someone wants to experience the greatest pleasures, they should look not at health, but at disease? And here, you need to make a distinction: don’t think I’m asking whether seriously ill people have more pleasures than healthy ones. Instead, I’m talking about the intensity of pleasure; I want to know where pleasures are the strongest. Because, as I mentioned, we need to figure out what pleasure really is, and what those who deny its existence mean by pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: I think I follow you.
PROTARCHUS: I think I get what you're saying.
SOCRATES: You will soon have a better opportunity of showing whether you do or not, Protarchus. Answer now, and tell me whether you see, I will not say more, but more intense and excessive pleasures in wantonness than in temperance? Reflect before you speak.
SOCRATES: You’ll soon have a better chance to show whether you do or not, Protarchus. For now, answer me this: do you see, and I won’t say more, but do you see stronger and more intense pleasures in indulgence than in moderation? Think carefully before you respond.
PROTARCHUS: I understand you, and see that there is a great difference between them; the temperate are restrained by the wise man's aphorism of 'Never too much,' which is their rule, but excess of pleasure possessing the minds of fools and wantons becomes madness and makes them shout with delight.
PROTARCHUS: I get what you're saying, and I see that there's a big difference between them; the disciplined are guided by the wise saying 'Everything in moderation,' which is their principle, but when foolish and reckless individuals are overwhelmed by pleasure, it turns into madness and causes them to shout with joy.
SOCRATES: Very good, and if this be true, then the greatest pleasures and pains will clearly be found in some vicious state of soul and body, and not in a virtuous state.
SOCRATES: That's true, and if that’s the case, then the greatest pleasures and pains will clearly come from a bad state of mind and body, rather than a good one.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
SOCRATES: And ought we not to select some of these for examination, and see what makes them the greatest?
SOCRATES: Shouldn't we choose some of these to examine and find out what makes them the best?
PROTARCHUS: To be sure we ought.
PROTARCHUS: Definitely, we should.
SOCRATES: Take the case of the pleasures which arise out of certain disorders.
SOCRATES: Consider the pleasures that come from certain disorders.
PROTARCHUS: What disorders?
What problems?
SOCRATES: The pleasures of unseemly disorders, which our severe friends utterly detest.
SOCRATES: The pleasures of inappropriate behavior, which our strict friends completely despise.
PROTARCHUS: What pleasures?
What pleasures are you talking about?
SOCRATES: Such, for example, as the relief of itching and other ailments by scratching, which is the only remedy required. For what in Heaven's name is the feeling to be called which is thus produced in us?—Pleasure or pain?
SOCRATES: For instance, relieving itching and other issues by scratching, which is the only solution needed. What on Earth do we call the feeling that this produces in us?—Pleasure or pain?
PROTARCHUS: A villainous mixture of some kind, Socrates, I should say.
PROTARCHUS: I’d call it a wicked blend of something, Socrates.
SOCRATES: I did not introduce the argument, O Protarchus, with any personal reference to Philebus, but because, without the consideration of these and similar pleasures, we shall not be able to determine the point at issue.
SOCRATES: I didn’t bring up the argument, O Protarchus, with any personal reference to Philebus; I did it because, without looking at these and similar pleasures, we won’t be able to figure out the issue at hand.
PROTARCHUS: Then we had better proceed to analyze this family of pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Then we should go ahead and break down this group of pleasures.
SOCRATES: You mean the pleasures which are mingled with pain?
SOCRATES: You mean the pleasures that come with some pain?
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: There are some mixtures which are of the body, and only in the body, and others which are of the soul, and only in the soul; while there are other mixtures of pleasures with pains, common both to soul and body, which in their composite state are called sometimes pleasures and sometimes pains.
SOCRATES: There are some combinations that are purely physical, affecting only the body, and others that are purely mental, affecting only the soul; meanwhile, there are other combinations of pleasure and pain that are shared by both the soul and the body, which in their mixed state are sometimes called pleasures and sometimes called pains.
PROTARCHUS: How is that?
PROTARCHUS: What does that mean?
SOCRATES: Whenever, in the restoration or in the derangement of nature, a man experiences two opposite feelings; for example, when he is cold and is growing warm, or again, when he is hot and is becoming cool, and he wants to have the one and be rid of the other;—the sweet has a bitter, as the common saying is, and both together fasten upon him and create irritation and in time drive him to distraction.
SOCRATES: Whenever a person goes through changes in nature, feeling two opposite sensations, like being cold while warming up or being hot while cooling down, and they wish to hold onto one and get rid of the other—sweetness comes with bitterness, as the saying goes. Both feelings clash and create frustration, which can eventually drive them to distraction.
PROTARCHUS: That description is very true to nature.
PROTARCHUS: That description is spot on.
SOCRATES: And in these sorts of mixtures the pleasures and pains are sometimes equal, and sometimes one or other of them predominates?
SOCRATES: So, in these kinds of mixtures, sometimes the pleasures and pains are equal, and other times one or the other is stronger?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: Of cases in which the pain exceeds the pleasure, an example is afforded by itching, of which we were just now speaking, and by the tingling which we feel when the boiling and fiery element is within, and the rubbing and motion only relieves the surface, and does not reach the parts affected; then if you put them to the fire, and as a last resort apply cold to them, you may often produce the most intense pleasure or pain in the inner parts, which contrasts and mingles with the pain or pleasure, as the case may be, of the outer parts; and this is due to the forcible separation of what is united, or to the union of what is separated, and to the juxtaposition of pleasure and pain.
SOCRATES: An example of situations where pain is greater than pleasure is itching, which we were just discussing, and the tingling sensation we feel when something hot or fiery is within us. Rubbing and moving can only provide relief to the surface, not the affected areas. If you expose these areas to fire and then, as a last resort, apply something cold, you can often create intense pleasure or pain in the deeper regions. This experience contrasts and mingles with the pain or pleasure felt on the surface. It is caused by forcibly separating what is usually connected or bringing together what is usually apart, and it highlights the close relationship between pleasure and pain.
PROTARCHUS: Quite so.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: Sometimes the element of pleasure prevails in a man, and the slight undercurrent of pain makes him tingle, and causes a gentle irritation; or again, the excessive infusion of pleasure creates an excitement in him,—he even leaps for joy, he assumes all sorts of attitudes, he changes all manner of colours, he gasps for breath, and is quite amazed, and utters the most irrational exclamations.
SOCRATES: Sometimes a person is overwhelmed by pleasure, and a subtle hint of pain makes them tingle and causes a mild irritation; or on the other hand, an excessive amount of pleasure creates excitement in them—they might leap for joy, strike all kinds of poses, change colors, gasp for breath, be completely amazed, and shout the most absurd things.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, indeed.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: He will say of himself, and others will say of him, that he is dying with these delights; and the more dissipated and good-for-nothing he is, the more vehemently he pursues them in every way; of all pleasures he declares them to be the greatest; and he reckons him who lives in the most constant enjoyment of them to be the happiest of mankind.
SOCRATES: He will claim he is dying from these pleasures, and others will say the same about him. The more irresponsible and worthless he is, the more passionately he chases after them in every possible way. He considers these pleasures to be the greatest of all, and believes that the person who experiences them most consistently is the happiest person alive.
PROTARCHUS: That, Socrates, is a very true description of the opinions of the majority about pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: That's a really accurate description of what most people think about pleasures, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, quite true of the mixed pleasures, which arise out of the communion of external and internal sensations in the body; there are also cases in which the mind contributes an opposite element to the body, whether of pleasure or pain, and the two unite and form one mixture. Concerning these I have already remarked, that when a man is empty he desires to be full, and has pleasure in hope and pain in vacuity. But now I must further add what I omitted before, that in all these and similar emotions in which body and mind are opposed (and they are innumerable), pleasure and pain coalesce in one.
SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, it’s true about the mixed pleasures that come from both external and internal feelings in the body. There are also situations where the mind adds a different element to the body, whether it’s pleasure or pain, and these two come together to create one mix. I've already pointed out that when someone feels empty, they want to feel full, finding pleasure in hope and pain in emptiness. But now I need to add something I missed earlier: in all these and similar feelings where body and mind conflict (and there are countless), pleasure and pain merge into one.
PROTARCHUS: I believe that to be quite true.
PROTARCHUS: I really believe that's true.
SOCRATES: There still remains one other sort of admixture of pleasures and pains.
SOCRATES: There's still one more type of mix of pleasures and pains.
PROTARCHUS: What is that?
PROTARCHUS: What's that?
SOCRATES: The union which, as we were saying, the mind often experiences of purely mental feelings.
SOCRATES: The connection that, as we were saying, the mind often feels from purely mental experiences.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
SOCRATES: Why, do we not speak of anger, fear, desire, sorrow, love, emulation, envy, and the like, as pains which belong to the soul only?
SOCRATES: Why do we not talk about anger, fear, desire, sorrow, love, rivalry, envy, and similar emotions as pains that only affect the soul?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah.
SOCRATES: And shall we not find them also full of the most wonderful pleasures? need I remind you of the anger
SOCRATES: And shouldn't we also find them filled with the most amazing pleasures? Do I need to remind you of the anger
'Which stirs even a wise man to violence, And is sweeter than honey and the honeycomb?'
'What stirs even a wise man to violence and is sweeter than honey and the honeycomb?'
And you remember how pleasures mingle with pains in lamentation and bereavement?
And you remember how joys mix with sorrows in mourning and loss?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, there is a natural connexion between them.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, there’s a natural connection between them.
SOCRATES: And you remember also how at the sight of tragedies the spectators smile through their tears?
SOCRATES: And you also remember how, when watching tragedies, the audience smiles even as they cry?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly I do.
Of course I do.
SOCRATES: And are you aware that even at a comedy the soul experiences a mixed feeling of pain and pleasure?
SOCRATES: Are you aware that even in a comedy, the soul feels a mix of pain and pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: I do not quite understand you.
PROTARCHUS: I don't really get what you're saying.
SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that there is some difficulty in recognizing this mixture of feelings at a comedy.
SOCRATES: I admit, Protarchus, that it can be tough to understand this mix of emotions in a comedy.
PROTARCHUS: There is, I think.
PROTARCHUS: I believe there is.
SOCRATES: And the greater the obscurity of the case the more desirable is the examination of it, because the difficulty in detecting other cases of mixed pleasures and pains will be less.
SOCRATES: The more unclear the situation is, the more important it is to examine it, because it will be easier to spot other instances of mixed pleasures and pains.
PROTARCHUS: Proceed.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead.
SOCRATES: I have just mentioned envy; would you not call that a pain of the soul?
SOCRATES: I've just brought up envy; wouldn't you consider that a pain of the soul?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
Yes.
SOCRATES: And yet the envious man finds something in the misfortunes of his neighbours at which he is pleased?
SOCRATES: And yet the jealous person finds some satisfaction in the misfortunes of their neighbors?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Definitely.
SOCRATES: And ignorance, and what is termed clownishness, are surely an evil?
SOCRATES: So, ignorance and what people call foolishness are definitely a bad thing, right?
PROTARCHUS: To be sure.
Of course.
SOCRATES: From these considerations learn to know the nature of the ridiculous.
SOCRATES: From these thoughts, learn to understand the nature of the ridiculous.
PROTARCHUS: Explain.
PROTARCHUS: Explain it.
SOCRATES: The ridiculous is in short the specific name which is used to describe the vicious form of a certain habit; and of vice in general it is that kind which is most at variance with the inscription at Delphi.
SOCRATES: The ridiculous is basically the specific term used to describe the harmful version of a certain habit; and when it comes to vice in general, it's the kind that is most opposed to the message at Delphi.
PROTARCHUS: You mean, Socrates, 'Know thyself.'
PROTARCHUS: You’re talking about 'Know thyself,' right, Socrates?
SOCRATES: I do; and the opposite would be, 'Know not thyself.'
SOCRATES: I do; and the opposite would be, 'Do not know yourself.'
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And now, O Protarchus, try to divide this into three.
SOCRATES: And now, Protarchus, please try to break this down into three parts.
PROTARCHUS: Indeed I am afraid that I cannot.
PROTARCHUS: Honestly, I’m worried that I can’t.
SOCRATES: Do you mean to say that I must make the division for you?
SOCRATES: Are you saying that I have to do the division for you?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, and what is more, I beg that you will.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, and I really hope you will.
SOCRATES: Are there not three ways in which ignorance of self may be shown?
SOCRATES: Aren't there three ways that a lack of self-awareness can be displayed?
PROTARCHUS: What are they?
PROTARCHUS: What are those?
SOCRATES: In the first place, about money; the ignorant may fancy himself richer than he is.
SOCRATES: First of all, when it comes to money, an ignorant person might think they're wealthier than they actually are.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is a very common error.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that's a pretty common mistake.
SOCRATES: And still more often he will fancy that he is taller or fairer than he is, or that he has some other advantage of person which he really has not.
SOCRATES: And even more often, he will think he is taller or more attractive than he really is, or that he has some other physical advantage that he actually doesn't.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And yet surely by far the greatest number err about the goods of the mind; they imagine themselves to be much better men than they are.
SOCRATES: And yet, most people are definitely mistaken about the things that really matter in life; they think they are much better individuals than they actually are.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that is by far the commonest delusion.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that's definitely the most common misconception.
SOCRATES: And of all the virtues, is not wisdom the one which the mass of mankind are always claiming, and which most arouses in them a spirit of contention and lying conceit of wisdom?
SOCRATES: Among all the virtues, isn't wisdom the one that people constantly brag about and that often leads to arguments and a false sense of superiority in their wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And may not all this be truly called an evil condition?
SOCRATES: Can we not honestly call all of this a bad situation?
PROTARCHUS: Very evil.
Very wrong.
SOCRATES: But we must pursue the division a step further, Protarchus, if we would see in envy of the childish sort a singular mixture of pleasure and pain.
SOCRATES: But we should take this division a step further, Protarchus, if we want to see how childish envy is a unique blend of pleasure and pain.
PROTARCHUS: How can we make the further division which you suggest?
PROTARCHUS: How can we do the further division you mentioned?
SOCRATES: All who are silly enough to entertain this lying conceit of themselves may of course be divided, like the rest of mankind, into two classes—one having power and might; and the other the reverse.
SOCRATES: Everyone who is foolish enough to believe this false idea about themselves can, of course, be categorized like the rest of humanity into two groups—one that has power and strength, and the other that does not.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Let this, then, be the principle of division; those of them who are weak and unable to revenge themselves, when they are laughed at, may be truly called ridiculous, but those who can defend themselves may be more truly described as strong and formidable; for ignorance in the powerful is hateful and horrible, because hurtful to others both in reality and in fiction, but powerless ignorance may be reckoned, and in truth is, ridiculous.
SOCRATES: So, let's make this the main point: those who are weak and can't get back at others when they’re mocked can truly be seen as ridiculous, but those who can stand up for themselves are more accurately described as strong and intimidating. Ignorance in the powerful is detestable and frightening because it harms others both in real life and in stories, while ignorance in those who are powerless can be seen as, and is really, ridiculous.
PROTARCHUS: That is very true, but I do not as yet see where is the admixture of pleasures and pains.
PROTARCHUS: That's very true, but I still don't see how pleasures and pains mix together.
SOCRATES: Well, then, let us examine the nature of envy.
SOCRATES: Alright, let's look into what envy really is.
PROTARCHUS: Proceed.
Go ahead.
SOCRATES: Is not envy an unrighteous pleasure, and also an unrighteous pain?
SOCRATES: Isn't envy an unfair pleasure, and also an unfair pain?
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: There is nothing envious or wrong in rejoicing at the misfortunes of enemies?
SOCRATES: Is it really envious or wrong to take pleasure in the misfortunes of our enemies?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: But to feel joy instead of sorrow at the sight of our friends' misfortunes—is not that wrong?
SOCRATES: But isn't it wrong to feel joy instead of sorrow when we see our friends' misfortunes?
PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: Did we not say that ignorance was always an evil?
SOCRATES: Didn't we agree that ignorance is always a bad thing?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And the three kinds of vain conceit in our friends which we enumerated—the vain conceit of beauty, of wisdom, and of wealth, are ridiculous if they are weak, and detestable when they are powerful: May we not say, as I was saying before, that our friends who are in this state of mind, when harmless to others, are simply ridiculous?
SOCRATES: The three types of vanity we talked about in our friends—the vanity of beauty, wisdom, and wealth—are silly when they’re weak and awful when they’re strong. Can't we agree, as I mentioned earlier, that our friends in this mindset are just ridiculous when they’re not harming anyone?
PROTARCHUS: They are ridiculous.
They're ridiculous.
SOCRATES: And do we not acknowledge this ignorance of theirs to be a misfortune?
SOCRATES: Don't we recognize their ignorance as a misfortune?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And do we feel pain or pleasure in laughing at it?
SOCRATES: Do we feel pain or pleasure when we laugh at it?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly we feel pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, we experience pleasure.
SOCRATES: And was not envy the source of this pleasure which we feel at the misfortunes of friends?
SOCRATES: So, isn't envy the reason we feel pleasure from the misfortunes of our friends?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: Then the argument shows that when we laugh at the folly of our friends, pleasure, in mingling with envy, mingles with pain, for envy has been acknowledged by us to be mental pain, and laughter is pleasant; and so we envy and laugh at the same instant.
SOCRATES: So the argument shows that when we laugh at our friends' foolishness, pleasure, mixed with envy, also mixes with pain, since we all agree that envy is a form of mental pain, while laughter is enjoyable. Therefore, we can experience both envy and laughter at the same time.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And the argument implies that there are combinations of pleasure and pain in lamentations, and in tragedy and comedy, not only on the stage, but on the greater stage of human life; and so in endless other cases.
SOCRATES: And the argument suggests that there are mixtures of pleasure and pain in expressions of grief, as well as in tragedy and comedy, not just on the stage, but in the larger context of human life; and similarly in countless other situations.
PROTARCHUS: I do not see how any one can deny what you say, Socrates, however eager he may be to assert the opposite opinion.
PROTARCHUS: I can't see how anyone can disagree with you, Socrates, no matter how much they want to argue the other side.
SOCRATES: I mentioned anger, desire, sorrow, fear, love, emulation, envy, and similar emotions, as examples in which we should find a mixture of the two elements so often named; did I not?
SOCRATES: I brought up anger, desire, sadness, fear, love, ambition, jealousy, and similar feelings as examples where we can see a blend of the two elements we've talked about so many times; didn’t I?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yep.
SOCRATES: We may observe that our conclusions hitherto have had reference only to sorrow and envy and anger.
SOCRATES: We can see that our conclusions so far have only addressed sadness, jealousy, and anger.
PROTARCHUS: I see.
Got it.
SOCRATES: Then many other cases still remain?
SOCRATES: So there are still many other cases left?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And why do you suppose me to have pointed out to you the admixture which takes place in comedy? Why but to convince you that there was no difficulty in showing the mixed nature of fear and love and similar affections; and I thought that when I had given you the illustration, you would have let me off, and have acknowledged as a general truth that the body without the soul, and the soul without the body, as well as the two united, are susceptible of all sorts of admixtures of pleasures and pains; and so further discussion would have been unnecessary. And now I want to know whether I may depart; or will you keep me here until midnight? I fancy that I may obtain my release without many words;—if I promise that to-morrow I will give you an account of all these cases. But at present I would rather sail in another direction, and go to other matters which remain to be settled, before the judgment can be given which Philebus demands.
SOCRATES: Why do you think I pointed out the mix that happens in comedy? It's to show you that it’s easy to illustrate the mixed nature of fear and love, along with other feelings. I thought once I shared my example, you’d agree and recognize that the body without the soul, and the soul without the body, as well as both together, can experience all kinds of pleasures and pains; then we wouldn’t need to keep discussing it. Now, I want to know if I can leave, or are you planning to keep me here until midnight? I think I could get my release without much fuss—if I promise to give you a full account of all these cases tomorrow. But for now, I’d rather move on to other topics that need to be addressed before we can reach the judgment that Philebus wants.
PROTARCHUS: Very good, Socrates; in what remains take your own course.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great, Socrates; for the rest, you can decide what to do.
SOCRATES: Then after the mixed pleasures the unmixed should have their turn; this is the natural and necessary order.
SOCRATES: So, after the mixed pleasures, it's time for the unmixed ones; this is the natural and necessary order.
PROTARCHUS: Excellent.
Awesome.
SOCRATES: These, in turn, then, I will now endeavour to indicate; for with the maintainers of the opinion that all pleasures are a cessation of pain, I do not agree, but, as I was saying, I use them as witnesses, that there are pleasures which seem only and are not, and there are others again which have great power and appear in many forms, yet are intermingled with pains, and are partly alleviations of agony and distress, both of body and mind.
SOCRATES: Now, I will try to explain these ideas; I don’t agree with those who think that all pleasures come from stopping pain. Instead, as I mentioned earlier, I use their views as examples to show that some pleasures may seem real but aren’t, while others are very strong and take many forms. Still, they’re mixed with pains and can be partly reliefs from suffering and distress, both physical and mental.
PROTARCHUS: Then what pleasures, Socrates, should we be right in conceiving to be true?
PROTARCHUS: So, Socrates, what pleasures should we consider to be genuine?
SOCRATES: True pleasures are those which are given by beauty of colour and form, and most of those which arise from smells; those of sound, again, and in general those of which the want is painless and unconscious, and of which the fruition is palpable to sense and pleasant and unalloyed with pain.
SOCRATES: Real pleasures come from the beauty of color and shape, and many of them come from scents; those from sound, too, and in general, those that we don’t feel the lack of are painless and unnoticed, with enjoyment that is clear to our senses and enjoyable without any pain mixed in.
PROTARCHUS: Once more, Socrates, I must ask what you mean.
PROTARCHUS: Once again, Socrates, I need to ask what you mean.
SOCRATES: My meaning is certainly not obvious, and I will endeavour to be plainer. I do not mean by beauty of form such beauty as that of animals or pictures, which the many would suppose to be my meaning; but, says the argument, understand me to mean straight lines and circles, and the plane or solid figures which are formed out of them by turning-lathes and rulers and measurers of angles; for these I affirm to be not only relatively beautiful, like other things, but they are eternally and absolutely beautiful, and they have peculiar pleasures, quite unlike the pleasures of scratching. And there are colours which are of the same character, and have similar pleasures; now do you understand my meaning?
SOCRATES: What I mean might not be clear, so I'll try to explain it better. When I talk about beauty, I’m not referring to the beauty found in animals or paintings, which most people might think I mean. Instead, I’m referring to straight lines and circles, and the two-dimensional or three-dimensional shapes created from them using lathes, rulers, and angle measurers. I assert that these shapes are not just relatively beautiful, like other things, but are eternally and absolutely beautiful, offering unique pleasures that are not at all like the pleasures of scratching. There are also colors that share this quality and provide similar pleasures. Do you understand what I mean now?
PROTARCHUS: I am trying to understand, Socrates, and I hope that you will try to make your meaning clearer.
PROTARCHUS: I'm trying to understand, Socrates, and I hope you'll make your point clearer.
SOCRATES: When sounds are smooth and clear, and have a single pure tone, then I mean to say that they are not relatively but absolutely beautiful, and have natural pleasures associated with them.
SOCRATES: When sounds are smooth and clear, and have a single pure tone, then I’m saying that they are not just relatively but absolutely beautiful, and they bring natural pleasures with them.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, there are such pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, those kinds of pleasures exist.
SOCRATES: The pleasures of smell are of a less ethereal sort, but they have no necessary admixture of pain; and all pleasures, however and wherever experienced, which are unattended by pains, I assign to an analogous class. Here then are two kinds of pleasures.
SOCRATES: The pleasures of smell are more grounded, but they come without any associated pain; and all pleasures, wherever and however they are felt, that don't involve pain, I place in a similar category. So, here we have two types of pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: I understand.
Got it.
SOCRATES: To these may be added the pleasures of knowledge, if no hunger of knowledge and no pain caused by such hunger precede them.
SOCRATES: We can also include the joys of knowledge, as long as there’s no desire for knowledge and no discomfort that comes from that desire before experiencing them.
PROTARCHUS: And this is the case.
PROTARCHUS: And this is the situation.
SOCRATES: Well, but if a man who is full of knowledge loses his knowledge, are there not pains of forgetting?
SOCRATES: Well, if someone who is full of knowledge loses that knowledge, don’t they feel the pain of forgetting?
PROTARCHUS: Not necessarily, but there may be times of reflection, when he feels grief at the loss of his knowledge.
PROTARCHUS: Not necessarily, but there might be moments of reflection when he feels sad about losing his knowledge.
SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but at present we are enumerating only the natural perceptions, and have nothing to do with reflection.
SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but right now we are just listing the natural perceptions and not considering reflection.
PROTARCHUS: In that case you are right in saying that the loss of knowledge is not attended with pain.
PROTARCHUS: In that case, you’re correct in saying that losing knowledge doesn’t come with pain.
SOCRATES: These pleasures of knowledge, then, are unmixed with pain; and they are not the pleasures of the many but of a very few.
SOCRATES: So, these pleasures that come from knowledge are pure and free of pain; they aren't enjoyed by the masses but rather by a select few.
PROTARCHUS: Quite true.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: And now, having fairly separated the pure pleasures and those which may be rightly termed impure, let us further add to our description of them, that the pleasures which are in excess have no measure, but that those which are not in excess have measure; the great, the excessive, whether more or less frequent, we shall be right in referring to the class of the infinite, and of the more and less, which pours through body and soul alike; and the others we shall refer to the class which has measure.
SOCRATES: Now that we've clearly distinguished between pure pleasures and what we can call impure ones, let's add to our description. Pleasures that are excessive lack any limits, while those that aren't excessive do have limits. The overwhelming pleasures, regardless of how frequently they occur, can be classified as infinite and can vary in intensity; on the other hand, the measured pleasures belong in a different category.
PROTARCHUS: Quite right, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Still there is something more to be considered about pleasures.
SOCRATES: There's still more to discuss about pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: When you speak of purity and clearness, or of excess, abundance, greatness and sufficiency, in what relation do these terms stand to truth?
SOCRATES: When you talk about purity and clarity, or about excess, abundance, greatness, and sufficiency, how are these concepts related to truth?
PROTARCHUS: Why do you ask, Socrates?
PROTARCHUS: Why are you asking, Socrates?
SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I should wish to test pleasure and knowledge in every possible way, in order that if there be a pure and impure element in either of them, I may present the pure element for judgment, and then they will be more easily judged of by you and by me and by all of us.
SOCRATES: Because, Protarchus, I want to examine pleasure and knowledge in every way possible. This way, if there’s a pure and an impure aspect to either, I can present the pure aspect for evaluation, making it easier for you, me, and everyone else to judge.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
SOCRATES: Let us investigate all the pure kinds; first selecting for consideration a single instance.
SOCRATES: Let’s explore all the pure types; first, let's choose one specific example to consider.
PROTARCHUS: What instance shall we select?
PROTARCHUS: Which example should we choose?
SOCRATES: Suppose that we first of all take whiteness.
SOCRATES: Let's begin with whiteness.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great.
SOCRATES: How can there be purity in whiteness, and what purity? Is that purest which is greatest or most in quantity, or that which is most unadulterated and freest from any admixture of other colours?
SOCRATES: How can we define purity in whiteness, and what kind of purity are we talking about? Is the purest form the one that has the greatest amount or quantity, or is it the one that is most untainted and free from any mix of other colors?
PROTARCHUS: Clearly that which is most unadulterated.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, that which is the purest.
SOCRATES: True, Protarchus; and so the purest white, and not the greatest or largest in quantity, is to be deemed truest and most beautiful?
SOCRATES: That's right, Protarchus; so the purest white, rather than the greatest or largest amount, should be considered the truest and most beautiful?
PROTARCHUS: Right.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: And we shall be quite right in saying that a little pure white is whiter and fairer and truer than a great deal that is mixed.
SOCRATES: And we would be correct in saying that a small amount of pure white is whiter, more beautiful, and more genuine than a lot of mixed colors.
PROTARCHUS: Perfectly right.
Absolutely correct.
SOCRATES: There is no need of adducing many similar examples in illustration of the argument about pleasure; one such is sufficient to prove to us that a small pleasure or a small amount of pleasure, if pure or unalloyed with pain, is always pleasanter and truer and fairer than a great pleasure or a great amount of pleasure of another kind.
SOCRATES: We don't need to provide many similar examples to support the argument about pleasure; one is enough to show us that a small pleasure, if it's pure and not mixed with pain, is always more enjoyable, more genuine, and better than a large pleasure of a different kind.
PROTARCHUS: Assuredly; and the instance you have given is quite sufficient.
PROTARCHUS: Definitely; and the example you've provided is more than enough.
SOCRATES: But what do you say of another question:—have we not heard that pleasure is always a generation, and has no true being? Do not certain ingenious philosophers teach this doctrine, and ought not we to be grateful to them?
SOCRATES: But what do you think about another question: haven't we heard that pleasure is always in the making and doesn't have a true existence? Don't some clever philosophers teach this idea, and shouldn't we be thankful to them?
PROTARCHUS: What do they mean?
PROTARCHUS: What does that mean?
SOCRATES: I will explain to you, my dear Protarchus, what they mean, by putting a question.
SOCRATES: I'll explain to you, my dear Protarchus, what they mean by asking a question.
PROTARCHUS: Ask, and I will answer.
PROTARCHUS: Go ahead and ask, and I’ll answer.
SOCRATES: I assume that there are two natures, one self-existent, and the other ever in want of something.
SOCRATES: I believe there are two natures: one that is self-existent and the other that is always lacking something.
PROTARCHUS: What manner of natures are they?
PROTARCHUS: What kind of beings are they?
SOCRATES: The one majestic ever, the other inferior.
SOCRATES: One is magnificent, the other is lesser.
PROTARCHUS: You speak riddles.
PROTARCHUS: You're speaking in riddles.
SOCRATES: You have seen loves good and fair, and also brave lovers of them.
SOCRATES: You've seen love that is good and beautiful, along with brave lovers of it.
PROTARCHUS: I should think so.
PROTARCHUS: I would think so.
SOCRATES: Search the universe for two terms which are like these two and are present everywhere.
SOCRATES: Look throughout the universe for two concepts that are similar to these and are found everywhere.
PROTARCHUS: Yet a third time I must say, Be a little plainer, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: Once again, I have to ask you to be a bit clearer, Socrates.
SOCRATES: There is no difficulty, Protarchus; the argument is only in play, and insinuates that some things are for the sake of something else (relatives), and that other things are the ends to which the former class subserve (absolutes).
SOCRATES: It's not complicated, Protarchus; the argument is just a game, suggesting that some things exist for the sake of something else (relatives), while other things are the ultimate goals that the first group serves (absolutes).
PROTARCHUS: Your many repetitions make me slow to understand.
PROTARCHUS: Your repeated points are making it hard for me to grasp everything.
SOCRATES: As the argument proceeds, my boy, I dare say that the meaning will become clearer.
SOCRATES: As we continue with the argument, my boy, I believe that the meaning will become clearer.
PROTARCHUS: Very likely.
PROTARCHUS: Very likely.
SOCRATES: Here are two new principles.
SOCRATES: Here are two new ideas.
PROTARCHUS: What are they?
PROTARCHUS: What are those?
SOCRATES: One is the generation of all things, and the other is essence.
SOCRATES: One is about the creation of everything, and the other is about the essence.
PROTARCHUS: I readily accept from you both generation and essence.
PROTARCHUS: I'm totally on board with you regarding both generation and essence.
SOCRATES: Very right; and would you say that generation is for the sake of essence, or essence for the sake of generation?
SOCRATES: Exactly; would you say that generation exists for the sake of essence, or is essence there for the sake of generation?
PROTARCHUS: You want to know whether that which is called essence is, properly speaking, for the sake of generation?
PROTARCHUS: Do you want to know if what we call essence exists, specifically for the purpose of creation?
SOCRATES: Yes.
SOCRATES: Yeah.
PROTARCHUS: By the gods, I wish that you would repeat your question.
PROTARCHUS: By the gods, I wish you would ask your question again.
SOCRATES: I mean, O my Protarchus, to ask whether you would tell me that ship-building is for the sake of ships, or ships for the sake of ship-building? and in all similar cases I should ask the same question.
SOCRATES: I want to ask you, my Protarchus, whether you would say that shipbuilding exists for the sake of ships, or do ships exist for the sake of shipbuilding? And for all similar situations, I would ask the same question.
PROTARCHUS: Why do you not answer yourself, Socrates?
PROTARCHUS: Why don't you answer yourself, Socrates?
SOCRATES: I have no objection, but you must take your part.
SOCRATES: I have no problem with that, but you need to do your part.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: My answer is, that all things instrumental, remedial, material, are given to us with a view to generation, and that each generation is relative to, or for the sake of, some being or essence, and that the whole of generation is relative to the whole of essence.
SOCRATES: My answer is that all tools, remedies, and materials are given to us for the purpose of creation, and each act of creation is connected to or intended for some being or essence, and that the entire process of creation relates to the entire essence.
PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a generation, must surely be for the sake of some essence?
SOCRATES: So, pleasure, being a kind of creation, must definitely be for the purpose of some essence?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: And that for the sake of which something else is done must be placed in the class of good, and that which is done for the sake of something else, in some other class, my good friend.
SOCRATES: So, the reason why something is done must be considered a good, while what is done for the sake of another purpose falls into a different category, my good friend.
PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: Then pleasure, being a generation, will be rightly placed in some other class than that of good?
SOCRATES: So, since pleasure is a form of creation, should it be classified differently from what we consider good?
PROTARCHUS: Quite right.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
SOCRATES: Then, as I said at first, we ought to be very grateful to him who first pointed out that pleasure was a generation only, and had no true being at all; for he is clearly one who laughs at the notion of pleasure being a good.
SOCRATES: So, as I mentioned earlier, we should be really thankful to the person who first showed us that pleasure is just a fleeting experience and doesn't have any real existence; because he clearly doesn't take the idea of pleasure being a good thing seriously.
PROTARCHUS: Assuredly.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: And he would surely laugh also at those who make generation their highest end.
SOCRATES: And he would definitely laugh at those who make procreation their ultimate goal.
PROTARCHUS: Of whom are you speaking, and what do they mean?
PROTARCHUS: Who are you talking about, and what do they mean?
SOCRATES: I am speaking of those who when they are cured of hunger or thirst or any other defect by some process of generation are delighted at the process as if it were pleasure; and they say that they would not wish to live without these and other feelings of a like kind which might be mentioned.
SOCRATES: I'm talking about those who, once they satisfy their hunger or thirst or any other need through some process, find joy in that process as if it were real pleasure. They claim they wouldn't want to live without these and other similar feelings that could be mentioned.
PROTARCHUS: That is certainly what they appear to think.
PROTARCHUS: That’s definitely how they seem to feel.
SOCRATES: And is not destruction universally admitted to be the opposite of generation?
SOCRATES: Isn’t destruction generally accepted as the opposite of creation?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: Then he who chooses thus, would choose generation and destruction rather than that third sort of life, in which, as we were saying, was neither pleasure nor pain, but only the purest possible thought.
SOCRATES: So the person who makes that choice would prefer a life of creation and destruction over that third type of life, which, as we mentioned, contains neither pleasure nor pain, but only the clearest form of thought.
PROTARCHUS: He who would make us believe pleasure to be a good is involved in great absurdities, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: Anyone who tries to convince us that pleasure is a good thing is getting into some serious contradictions, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Great, indeed; and there is yet another of them.
SOCRATES: That's great, for sure; and there's another one.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: Is there not an absurdity in arguing that there is nothing good or noble in the body, or in anything else, but that good is in the soul only, and that the only good of the soul is pleasure; and that courage or temperance or understanding, or any other good of the soul, is not really a good?—and is there not yet a further absurdity in our being compelled to say that he who has a feeling of pain and not of pleasure is bad at the time when he is suffering pain, even though he be the best of men; and again, that he who has a feeling of pleasure, in so far as he is pleased at the time when he is pleased, in that degree excels in virtue?
SOCRATES: Isn't it absurd to claim that nothing in the body or anywhere else is good or noble, but that goodness only exists in the soul, and that the sole good of the soul is pleasure? And isn't there an even bigger absurdity in saying that someone who feels pain and not pleasure is bad just because they're experiencing pain, even if they are the best person? Likewise, does it make sense to say that someone who feels pleasure is virtuous just because they are enjoying that moment?
PROTARCHUS: Nothing, Socrates, can be more irrational than all this.
PROTARCHUS: Nothing, Socrates, could be more unreasonable than all of this.
SOCRATES: And now, having subjected pleasure to every sort of test, let us not appear to be too sparing of mind and knowledge: let us ring their metal bravely, and see if there be unsoundness in any part, until we have found out what in them is of the purest nature; and then the truest elements both of pleasure and knowledge may be brought up for judgment.
SOCRATES: Now that we've thoroughly examined pleasure, let's not hold back on our thinking and understanding. Let's test it rigorously and see if there's any weakness in any part, until we identify what is the purest in them. Then we can bring forward the truest elements of both pleasure and knowledge for evaluation.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
Sure.
SOCRATES: Knowledge has two parts,—the one productive, and the other educational?
SOCRATES: Knowledge has two parts—one that’s practical and the other that’s educational?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And in the productive or handicraft arts, is not one part more akin to knowledge, and the other less; and may not the one part be regarded as the pure, and the other as the impure?
SOCRATES: In the crafts or skilled trades, isn’t one aspect more connected to knowledge while the other is less so? Can we see one part as the pure one and the other as the impure?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: Let us separate the superior or dominant elements in each of them.
SOCRATES: Let's distinguish the stronger or more dominant elements in each of them.
PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how do you separate them?
PROTARCHUS: What are they, and how do you distinguish between them?
SOCRATES: I mean to say, that if arithmetic, mensuration, and weighing be taken away from any art, that which remains will not be much.
SOCRATES: What I'm saying is that if you remove arithmetic, measurement, and weighing from any skill, what’s left won’t be significant.
PROTARCHUS: Not much, certainly.
Not much, for sure.
SOCRATES: The rest will be only conjecture, and the better use of the senses which is given by experience and practice, in addition to a certain power of guessing, which is commonly called art, and is perfected by attention and pains.
SOCRATES: The rest will just be speculation, and the improved use of the senses that comes from experience and practice, along with a bit of intuition, which people usually refer to as skill, and is developed through focus and effort.
PROTARCHUS: Nothing more, assuredly.
PROTARCHUS: Nothing else, for sure.
SOCRATES: Music, for instance, is full of this empiricism; for sounds are harmonized, not by measure, but by skilful conjecture; the music of the flute is always trying to guess the pitch of each vibrating note, and is therefore mixed up with much that is doubtful and has little which is certain.
SOCRATES: Music, for example, is full of this hands-on experience; sounds are harmonized not by strict measurements, but by clever guesses. The music of the flute is always attempting to find the right pitch of each vibrating note, which means it’s tangled up with a lot of uncertainty and has very little that is definite.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: And the same will be found to hold good of medicine and husbandry and piloting and generalship.
SOCRATES: The same applies to medicine, farming, navigation, and leadership.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Totally agree.
SOCRATES: The art of the builder, on the other hand, which uses a number of measures and instruments, attains by their help to a greater degree of accuracy than the other arts.
SOCRATES: The builder's craft, on the other hand, which relies on various tools and measurements, achieves a higher level of precision with their assistance compared to other trades.
PROTARCHUS: How is that?
PROTARCHUS: What's that about?
SOCRATES: In ship-building and house-building, and in other branches of the art of carpentering, the builder has his rule, lathe, compass, line, and a most ingenious machine for straightening wood.
SOCRATES: In shipbuilding, house building, and other areas of carpentry, the builder has his ruler, lathe, compass, line, and a really clever machine for straightening wood.
PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.
Absolutely, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Then now let us divide the arts of which we were speaking into two kinds,—the arts which, like music, are less exact in their results, and those which, like carpentering, are more exact.
SOCRATES: Let’s break down the arts we were discussing into two categories—those like music that are less precise in their outcomes, and those like carpentry that are more precise.
PROTARCHUS: Let us make that division.
PROTARCHUS: Let's go ahead with that division.
SOCRATES: Of the latter class, the most exact of all are those which we just now spoke of as primary.
SOCRATES: Among those, the most precise are the ones we just talked about as primary.
PROTARCHUS: I see that you mean arithmetic, and the kindred arts of weighing and measuring.
PROTARCHUS: I understand that you're talking about arithmetic and related skills like weighing and measuring.
SOCRATES: Certainly, Protarchus; but are not these also distinguishable into two kinds?
SOCRATES: Of course, Protarchus; but can’t we also categorize these into two types?
PROTARCHUS: What are the two kinds?
PROTARCHUS: What are the two types?
SOCRATES: In the first place, arithmetic is of two kinds, one of which is popular, and the other philosophical.
SOCRATES: First of all, there are two types of arithmetic: one that is common and the other that is philosophical.
PROTARCHUS: How would you distinguish them?
PROTARCHUS: How would you tell them apart?
SOCRATES: There is a wide difference between them, Protarchus; some arithmeticians reckon unequal units; as for example, two armies, two oxen, two very large things or two very small things. The party who are opposed to them insist that every unit in ten thousand must be the same as every other unit.
SOCRATES: There’s a big difference between them, Protarchus; some mathematicians consider unequal units; for instance, two armies, two oxen, two very large things, or two very small things. Those who disagree with them argue that every unit in ten thousand must be the same as all the others.
PROTARCHUS: Undoubtedly there is, as you say, a great difference among the votaries of the science; and there may be reasonably supposed to be two sorts of arithmetic.
PROTARCHUS: There is definitely, as you said, a significant difference among the followers of the science; and it's reasonable to assume that there are two types of arithmetic.
SOCRATES: And when we compare the art of mensuration which is used in building with philosophical geometry, or the art of computation which is used in trading with exact calculation, shall we say of either of the pairs that it is one or two?
SOCRATES: And when we compare the skill of measuring used in construction with the principles of philosophical geometry, or the math used in trading with precise calculations, can we say that either of these pairs is one or two?
PROTARCHUS: On the analogy of what has preceded, I should be of opinion that they were severally two.
PROTARCHUS: Based on what we've discussed, I think there were actually two of them.
SOCRATES: Right; but do you understand why I have discussed the subject?
SOCRATES: Exactly; but do you get why I brought this up?
PROTARCHUS: I think so, but I should like to be told by you.
PROTARCHUS: I believe that’s true, but I’d like you to explain it to me.
SOCRATES: The argument has all along been seeking a parallel to pleasure, and true to that original design, has gone on to ask whether one sort of knowledge is purer than another, as one pleasure is purer than another.
SOCRATES: The argument has always been looking for a comparison to pleasure, and true to that original intention, it has continued to ask whether one type of knowledge is purer than another, just as one pleasure is purer than another.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly; that was the intention.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, that was the plan.
SOCRATES: And has not the argument in what has preceded, already shown that the arts have different provinces, and vary in their degrees of certainty?
SOCRATES: And hasn't the argument we've discussed already shown that the arts have different areas of focus and vary in their levels of certainty?
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: Totally agree.
SOCRATES: And just now did not the argument first designate a particular art by a common term, thus making us believe in the unity of that art; and then again, as if speaking of two different things, proceed to enquire whether the art as pursed by philosophers, or as pursued by non-philosophers, has more of certainty and purity?
SOCRATES: And just now didn't the argument first refer to a specific skill using a general term, making us think that skill is unified; and then, as if talking about two separate things, go on to question whether the skill practiced by philosophers or the one practiced by non-philosophers is more certain and pure?
PROTARCHUS: That is the very question which the argument is asking.
PROTARCHUS: That’s exactly the question the argument is raising.
SOCRATES: And how, Protarchus, shall we answer the enquiry?
SOCRATES: So, Protarchus, how are we going to respond to the question?
PROTARCHUS: O Socrates, we have reached a point at which the difference of clearness in different kinds of knowledge is enormous.
PROTARCHUS: Oh Socrates, we've gotten to a place where the differences in clarity among various types of knowledge are huge.
SOCRATES: Then the answer will be the easier.
SOCRATES: Then the answer will be simpler.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly; and let us say in reply, that those arts into which arithmetic and mensuration enter, far surpass all others; and that of these the arts or sciences which are animated by the pure philosophic impulse are infinitely superior in accuracy and truth.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely; and let's say in response that the fields involving arithmetic and measurement far exceed all others; and among these, the disciplines fueled by true philosophical insight are vastly superior in precision and truth.
SOCRATES: Then this is your judgment; and this is the answer which, upon your authority, we will give to all masters of the art of misinterpretation?
SOCRATES: So this is your decision; and this is the answer that, based on your authority, we will give to all the experts in misinterpretation?
PROTARCHUS: What answer?
What’s the answer?
SOCRATES: That there are two arts of arithmetic, and two of mensuration; and also several other arts which in like manner have this double nature, and yet only one name.
SOCRATES: There are two types of arithmetic, and two types of measurement; and there are also several other arts that have this dual nature, but still share a single name.
PROTARCHUS: Let us boldly return this answer to the masters of whom you speak, Socrates, and hope for good luck.
PROTARCHUS: Let's confidently give this answer to the leaders you mentioned, Socrates, and hope for the best.
SOCRATES: We have explained what we term the most exact arts or sciences.
SOCRATES: We have clarified what we refer to as the most precise arts or sciences.
PROTARCHUS: Very good.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great.
SOCRATES: And yet, Protarchus, dialectic will refuse to acknowledge us, if we do not award to her the first place.
SOCRATES: But, Protarchus, dialectic won't recognize us if we don't give it the top priority.
PROTARCHUS: And pray, what is dialectic?
PROTARCHUS: So, what exactly is dialectic?
SOCRATES: Clearly the science which has to do with all that knowledge of which we are now speaking; for I am sure that all men who have a grain of intelligence will admit that the knowledge which has to do with being and reality, and sameness and unchangeableness, is by far the truest of all. But how would you decide this question, Protarchus?
SOCRATES: Obviously, the science related to all this knowledge we're discussing; because I'm sure that anyone with a bit of understanding has to agree that the knowledge connected to being and reality, as well as consistency and permanence, is by far the most genuine of all. But how would you approach this question, Protarchus?
PROTARCHUS: I have often heard Gorgias maintain, Socrates, that the art of persuasion far surpassed every other; this, as he says, is by far the best of them all, for to it all things submit, not by compulsion, but of their own free will. Now, I should not like to quarrel either with you or with him.
PROTARCHUS: I've often heard Gorgias argue, Socrates, that the art of persuasion is way better than anything else; he says it's the best of all because everything yields to it, not through force, but willingly. I wouldn’t want to argue with either you or him.
SOCRATES: You mean to say that you would like to desert, if you were not ashamed?
SOCRATES: Are you saying that you would leave if you weren’t embarrassed?
PROTARCHUS: As you please.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: May I not have led you into a misapprehension?
SOCRATES: Did I possibly lead you to misunderstand something?
PROTARCHUS: How?
How?
SOCRATES: Dear Protarchus, I never asked which was the greatest or best or usefullest of arts or sciences, but which had clearness and accuracy, and the greatest amount of truth, however humble and little useful an art. And as for Gorgias, if you do not deny that his art has the advantage in usefulness to mankind, he will not quarrel with you for saying that the study of which I am speaking is superior in this particular of essential truth; as in the comparison of white colours, a little whiteness, if that little be only pure, was said to be superior in truth to a great mass which is impure. And now let us give our best attention and consider well, not the comparative use or reputation of the sciences, but the power or faculty, if there be such, which the soul has of loving the truth, and of doing all things for the sake of it; let us search into the pure element of mind and intelligence, and then we shall be able to say whether the science of which I have been speaking is most likely to possess the faculty, or whether there be some other which has higher claims.
SOCRATES: Dear Protarchus, I never inquired which art or science is the greatest, best, or most useful, but rather which one offers the most clarity and accuracy, along with the highest degree of truth, no matter how simple or seemingly insignificant it may be. As for Gorgias, if you agree that his art is more useful to humanity, he won't dispute your claim that the study I’m talking about excels in essential truth; just like a little bit of pure whiteness is considered more true than a large amount of impure whiteness. Now, let's focus our attention and thoughtfully consider not the relative usefulness or reputation of the sciences, but the ability or inclination, if it exists, that the soul has for loving the truth and doing everything in pursuit of it. Let's explore the pure essence of mind and intelligence, and then we can determine whether the science I’ve mentioned is most likely to have that ability, or if there’s another that makes a stronger case.
PROTARCHUS: Well, I have been considering, and I can hardly think that any other science or art has a firmer grasp of the truth than this.
PROTARCHUS: Well, I've been thinking, and I can hardly believe that any other field of knowledge or skill understands the truth better than this.
SOCRATES: Do you say so because you observe that the arts in general and those engaged in them make use of opinion, and are resolutely engaged in the investigation of matters of opinion? Even he who supposes himself to be occupied with nature is really occupied with the things of this world, how created, how acting or acted upon. Is not this the sort of enquiry in which his life is spent?
SOCRATES: Are you saying that because you see that the arts in general and the people involved in them rely on opinions and are firmly focused on exploring matters of opinion? Even someone who thinks they are focused on nature is actually dealing with the things of this world, how they were created, how they act, or how they are acted upon. Isn't this the kind of inquiry that fills their life?
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: He is labouring, not after eternal being, but about things which are becoming, or which will or have become.
SOCRATES: He is working not towards eternal existence, but on things that are changing, or that will change or have changed.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And can we say that any of these things which neither are nor have been nor will be unchangeable, when judged by the strict rule of truth ever become certain?
SOCRATES: And can we say that any of these things which are not, have not been, or will not be unchangeable, when judged by the strict rule of truth, ever become certain?
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
PROTARCHUS: No way.
SOCRATES: How can anything fixed be concerned with that which has no fixedness?
SOCRATES: How can something that is fixed be related to something that isn't fixed at all?
PROTARCHUS: How indeed?
PROTARCHUS: How so?
SOCRATES: Then mind and science when employed about such changing things do not attain the highest truth?
SOCRATES: So, when we use our minds and science to deal with things that are constantly changing, we don’t reach the ultimate truth?
PROTARCHUS: I should imagine not.
PROTARCHUS: I don’t think so.
SOCRATES: And now let us bid farewell, a long farewell, to you or me or Philebus or Gorgias, and urge on behalf of the argument a single point.
SOCRATES: And now let's say goodbye, a long goodbye, to you, me, Philebus, or Gorgias, and emphasize one point for the sake of the argument.
PROTARCHUS: What point?
PROTARCHUS: What's the point?
SOCRATES: Let us say that the stable and pure and true and unalloyed has to do with the things which are eternal and unchangeable and unmixed, or if not, at any rate what is most akin to them has; and that all other things are to be placed in a second or inferior class.
SOCRATES: Let's say that the stable, pure, true, and unaltered relate to things that are eternal, unchanging, and not mixed with anything else. If that's not the case, then at least what is closest to those things does. We should view everything else as belonging to a second or lower category.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely true.
SOCRATES: And of the names expressing cognition, ought not the fairest to be given to the fairest things?
SOCRATES: Shouldn't the best names for knowledge be given to the most beautiful things?
PROTARCHUS: That is natural.
PROTARCHUS: That's natural.
SOCRATES: And are not mind and wisdom the names which are to be honoured most?
SOCRATES: Aren't mind and wisdom the things that we should value the most?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yup.
SOCRATES: And these names may be said to have their truest and most exact application when the mind is engaged in the contemplation of true being?
SOCRATES: So, these names are most accurately applied when the mind is focused on contemplating true existence?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And these were the names which I adduced of the rivals of pleasure?
SOCRATES: So, were these the names I mentioned as the competitors of pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Very true, Socrates.
Absolutely, Socrates.
SOCRATES: In the next place, as to the mixture, here are the ingredients, pleasure and wisdom, and we may be compared to artists who have their materials ready to their hands.
SOCRATES: Next, regarding the mixture, here are the ingredients: pleasure and wisdom. We can be compared to artists who have their materials ready at hand.
PROTARCHUS: Yes.
PROTARCHUS: Yep.
SOCRATES: And now we must begin to mix them?
SOCRATES: So, should we start mixing them now?
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: But had we not better have a preliminary word and refresh our memories?
SOCRATES: But shouldn't we have a quick recap and refresh our memories?
PROTARCHUS: Of what?
Of what are you asking?
SOCRATES: Of that which I have already mentioned. Well says the proverb, that we ought to repeat twice and even thrice that which is good.
SOCRATES: Regarding what I've just mentioned. The proverb says well that we should repeat what's good twice or even three times.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Well then, by Zeus, let us proceed, and I will make what I believe to be a fair summary of the argument.
SOCRATES: Alright then, by Zeus, let's move forward, and I will give what I think is a fair summary of the argument.
PROTARCHUS: Let me hear.
PROTARCHUS: I'm listening.
SOCRATES: Philebus says that pleasure is the true end of all living beings, at which all ought to aim, and moreover that it is the chief good of all, and that the two names 'good' and 'pleasant' are correctly given to one thing and one nature; Socrates, on the other hand, begins by denying this, and further says, that in nature as in name they are two, and that wisdom partakes more than pleasure of the good. Is not and was not this what we were saying, Protarchus?
SOCRATES: Philebus claims that pleasure is the ultimate goal for all living beings, which everyone should pursue, and that it is the highest good. He also says that the terms 'good' and 'pleasant' refer to the same thing and nature. On the other hand, I start by rejecting this idea and say that, both in essence and in name, they are different, and that wisdom is more aligned with the good than pleasure is. Isn’t this what we were discussing, Protarchus?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And is there not and was there not a further point which was conceded between us?
SOCRATES: Isn't there also a point that we agreed on?
PROTARCHUS: What was it?
PROTARCHUS: What was that?
SOCRATES: That the good differs from all other things.
SOCRATES: The good is different from everything else.
PROTARCHUS: In what respect?
PROTARCHUS: In what way?
SOCRATES: In that the being who possesses good always everywhere and in all things has the most perfect sufficiency, and is never in need of anything else.
SOCRATES: The person who has goodness always, everywhere, and in all things has the greatest sense of self-sufficiency and never lacks for anything.
PROTARCHUS: Exactly.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: And did we not endeavour to make an imaginary separation of wisdom and pleasure, assigning to each a distinct life, so that pleasure was wholly excluded from wisdom, and wisdom in like manner had no part whatever in pleasure?
SOCRATES: And didn’t we try to create a clear separation between wisdom and pleasure, giving each its own distinct life, so that pleasure was completely cut off from wisdom, and wisdom also had no involvement with pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: We did.
We did.
SOCRATES: And did we think that either of them alone would be sufficient?
SOCRATES: Did we really think that either of them alone would be enough?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
SOCRATES: And if we erred in any point, then let any one who will, take up the enquiry again and set us right; and assuming memory and wisdom and knowledge and true opinion to belong to the same class, let him consider whether he would desire to possess or acquire,—I will not say pleasure, however abundant or intense, if he has no real perception that he is pleased, nor any consciousness of what he feels, nor any recollection, however momentary, of the feeling,—but would he desire to have anything at all, if these faculties were wanting to him? And about wisdom I ask the same question; can you conceive that any one would choose to have all wisdom absolutely devoid of pleasure, rather than with a certain degree of pleasure, or all pleasure devoid of wisdom, rather than with a certain degree of wisdom?
SOCRATES: If we made any mistakes, then anyone who wants to can take up the investigation again and correct us. Assuming that memory, wisdom, knowledge, and true opinion are all in the same category, I ask whether he would want to have or gain — not just pleasure, no matter how plentiful or intense it is, if he has no real awareness that he is experiencing pleasure, no understanding of what he feels, and no memory, however fleeting, of that feeling. Would he want to have anything at all if he lacked those abilities? And I raise the same question about wisdom: can you imagine that someone would choose to have complete wisdom without any pleasure, rather than having it along with some pleasure, or prefer all pleasure without wisdom, rather than enjoying some wisdom as well?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not, Socrates; but why repeat such questions any more?
PROTARCHUS: Of course not, Socrates; but why keep asking these questions?
SOCRATES: Then the perfect and universally eligible and entirely good cannot possibly be either of them?
SOCRATES: So, the perfect, universally eligible, and completely good thing can't possibly be either of them?
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
PROTARCHUS: No way.
SOCRATES: Then now we must ascertain the nature of the good more or less accurately, in order, as we were saying, that the second place may be duly assigned.
SOCRATES: So now we need to understand the nature of the good more accurately, so that, as we said, we can properly assign the second place.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
PROTARCHUS: Okay.
SOCRATES: Have we not found a road which leads towards the good?
SOCRATES: Haven't we discovered a path that leads to what is good?
PROTARCHUS: What road?
What path?
SOCRATES: Supposing that a man had to be found, and you could discover in what house he lived, would not that be a great step towards the discovery of the man himself?
SOCRATES: If someone had to be found, and you could figure out which house he lived in, wouldn’t that be a big step toward finding the man himself?
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Of course.
SOCRATES: And now reason intimates to us, as at our first beginning, that we should seek the good, not in the unmixed life but in the mixed.
SOCRATES: And now reason suggests to us, just as it did at the beginning, that we should seek the good, not in a life that is purely simple but in one that is a bit more complex.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: There is greater hope of finding that which we are seeking in the life which is well mixed than in that which is not?
SOCRATES: There's a better chance of finding what we're looking for in a well-balanced life than in one that's not?
PROTARCHUS: Far greater.
Much greater.
SOCRATES: Then now let us mingle, Protarchus, at the same time offering up a prayer to Dionysus or Hephaestus, or whoever is the god who presides over the ceremony of mingling.
SOCRATES: So now let's come together, Protarchus, while also offering a prayer to Dionysus or Hephaestus, or whichever god is in charge of the ceremony of coming together.
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: Are not we the cup-bearers? and here are two fountains which are flowing at our side: one, which is pleasure, may be likened to a fountain of honey; the other, wisdom, a sober draught in which no wine mingles, is of water unpleasant but healthful; out of these we must seek to make the fairest of all possible mixtures.
SOCRATES: Aren’t we the cup-bearers? And look, we have two fountains flowing beside us: one, representing pleasure, is like a fountain of honey; the other, wisdom, is a pure drink with no wine mixed in, being a bitter but healthy water. From these, we need to create the best possible blend.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: Tell me first;—should we be most likely to succeed if we mingled every sort of pleasure with every sort of wisdom?
SOCRATES: First, tell me this: would we be more likely to succeed if we mixed every kind of pleasure with every kind of wisdom?
PROTARCHUS: Perhaps we might.
PROTARCHUS: Maybe we could.
SOCRATES: But I should be afraid of the risk, and I think that I can show a safer plan.
SOCRATES: But I should be worried about the risk, and I believe I can suggest a safer approach.
PROTARCHUS: What is it?
PROTARCHUS: What's going on?
SOCRATES: One pleasure was supposed by us to be truer than another, and one art to be more exact than another.
SOCRATES: We believed that one pleasure was more genuine than another, and that one skill was more precise than another.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
SOCRATES: There was also supposed to be a difference in sciences; some of them regarding only the transient and perishing, and others the permanent and imperishable and everlasting and immutable; and when judged by the standard of truth, the latter, as we thought, were truer than the former.
SOCRATES: There was also an idea that there was a difference in sciences; some focused only on the temporary and fleeting, while others dealt with the permanent, unchanging, eternal, and unyielding; and when evaluated by the standard of truth, we believed that the latter were more accurate than the former.
PROTARCHUS: Very good and right.
PROTARCHUS: Sounds great!
SOCRATES: If, then, we were to begin by mingling the sections of each class which have the most of truth, will not the union suffice to give us the loveliest of lives, or shall we still want some elements of another kind?
SOCRATES: So, if we start by mixing the parts of each class that hold the most truth, will that combination be enough to give us the best life, or will we still need some elements from elsewhere?
PROTARCHUS: I think that we ought to do what you suggest.
PROTARCHUS: I think we should do what you’re suggesting.
SOCRATES: Let us suppose a man who understands justice, and has reason as well as understanding about the true nature of this and of all other things.
SOCRATES: Let's imagine a man who knows what justice is, and has both reason and insight into the true nature of this and everything else.
PROTARCHUS: We will suppose such a man.
PROTARCHUS: Let's assume such a person.
SOCRATES: Will he have enough of knowledge if he is acquainted only with the divine circle and sphere, and knows nothing of our human spheres and circles, but uses only divine circles and measures in the building of a house?
SOCRATES: Will he have enough knowledge if he only understands the divine circle and sphere, but knows nothing about our human circles and spheres, and only uses divine circles and measurements when building a house?
PROTARCHUS: The knowledge which is only superhuman, Socrates, is ridiculous in man.
PROTARCHUS: Socrates, the kind of knowledge that’s only beyond human understanding is ridiculous for people.
SOCRATES: What do you mean? Do you mean that you are to throw into the cup and mingle the impure and uncertain art which uses the false measure and the false circle?
SOCRATES: What are you saying? Are you saying that you're going to pour into the cup and mix the impure and uncertain skill that uses the wrong measure and the wrong circle?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, we must, if any of us is ever to find his way home.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, we have to, if any of us is ever going to find his way home.
SOCRATES: And am I to include music, which, as I was saying just now, is full of guesswork and imitation, and is wanting in purity?
SOCRATES: So, should I include music, which, as I mentioned earlier, is full of guesswork and imitation and lacks purity?
PROTARCHUS: Yes, I think that you must, if human life is to be a life at all.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, I think you have to, if human life is going to be a life at all.
SOCRATES: Well, then, suppose that I give way, and, like a doorkeeper who is pushed and overborne by the mob, I open the door wide, and let knowledge of every sort stream in, and the pure mingle with the impure?
SOCRATES: Alright, then, let's say I give in, and like a doorkeeper who is shoved aside by a crowd, I open the door wide, allowing all kinds of knowledge to pour in, mixing the pure with the impure?
PROTARCHUS: I do not know, Socrates, that any great harm would come of having them all, if only you have the first sort.
PROTARCHUS: I’m not sure, Socrates, that it would really be a problem to have all of them, as long as you have the first one.
SOCRATES: Well, then, shall I let them all flow into what Homer poetically terms 'a meeting of the waters'?
SOCRATES: So, should I let them all come together in what Homer poetically calls 'a meeting of the waters'?
PROTARCHUS: By all means.
Absolutely.
SOCRATES: There—I have let them in, and now I must return to the fountain of pleasure. For we were not permitted to begin by mingling in a single stream the true portions of both according to our original intention; but the love of all knowledge constrained us to let all the sciences flow in together before the pleasures.
SOCRATES: There—I’ve let them in, and now I have to go back to the source of pleasure. We weren’t allowed to start by blending the true parts of both as we originally intended; instead, our passion for all knowledge forced us to let all the sciences mix together before the pleasures.
PROTARCHUS: Quite true.
PROTARCHUS: That's true.
SOCRATES: And now the time has come for us to consider about the pleasures also, whether we shall in like manner let them go all at once, or at first only the true ones.
SOCRATES: Now it’s time for us to think about pleasures as well. Should we let them all go at once, or should we start with just the true ones?
PROTARCHUS: It will be by far the safer course to let flow the true ones first.
PROTARCHUS: It’s definitely safer to start with the true ones.
SOCRATES: Let them flow, then; and now, if there are any necessary pleasures, as there were arts and sciences necessary, must we not mingle them?
SOCRATES: Let them flow, then; and now, if there are any essential pleasures, just like there were essential arts and sciences, shouldn't we mix them?
PROTARCHUS: Yes; the necessary pleasures should certainly be allowed to mingle.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, the essential pleasures should definitely be allowed to mix.
SOCRATES: The knowledge of the arts has been admitted to be innocent and useful always; and if we say of pleasures in like manner that all of them are good and innocent for all of us at all times, we must let them all mingle?
SOCRATES: It’s been acknowledged that knowing about the arts is always innocent and beneficial; and if we claim that all pleasures are similarly good and innocent for everyone at all times, should we then allow them all to mix together?
PROTARCHUS: What shall we say about them, and what course shall we take?
PROTARCHUS: What should we say about them, and what path should we follow?
SOCRATES: Do not ask me, Protarchus; but ask the daughters of pleasure and wisdom to answer for themselves.
SOCRATES: Don't ask me, Protarchus; instead, ask the daughters of pleasure and wisdom to speak for themselves.
PROTARCHUS: How?
PROTARCHUS: How so?
SOCRATES: Tell us, O beloved—shall we call you pleasures or by some other name?—would you rather live with or without wisdom? I am of opinion that they would certainly answer as follows:
SOCRATES: Tell us, dear friend—should we call you pleasures or something else?—would you prefer to live with or without wisdom? I think they would definitely respond like this:
PROTARCHUS: How?
PROTARCHUS: How come?
SOCRATES: They would answer, as we said before, that for any single class to be left by itself pure and isolated is not good, nor altogether possible; and that if we are to make comparisons of one class with another and choose, there is no better companion than knowledge of things in general, and likewise the perfect knowledge, if that may be, of ourselves in every respect.
SOCRATES: They would respond, as we mentioned earlier, that having any single group completely separate and isolated is neither good nor truly feasible; and that when we compare one group to another and make choices, there’s no better companion than a general understanding of things, as well as the complete understanding, if we can achieve it, of ourselves in every way.
PROTARCHUS: And our answer will be:—In that ye have spoken well.
PROTARCHUS: And our response will be:—You’ve made a good point.
SOCRATES: Very true. And now let us go back and interrogate wisdom and mind: Would you like to have any pleasures in the mixture? And they will reply:—'What pleasures do you mean?'
SOCRATES: That's definitely true. Now let's go back and ask about wisdom and intellect: Do you want any pleasures in the mix? And they'll respond:—'What pleasures are you talking about?'
PROTARCHUS: Likely enough.
Sounds about right.
SOCRATES: And we shall take up our parable and say: Do you wish to have the greatest and most vehement pleasures for your companions in addition to the true ones? 'Why, Socrates,' they will say, 'how can we? seeing that they are the source of ten thousand hindrances to us; they trouble the souls of men, which are our habitation, with their madness; they prevent us from coming to the birth, and are commonly the ruin of the children which are born to us, causing them to be forgotten and unheeded; but the true and pure pleasures, of which you spoke, know to be of our family, and also those pleasures which accompany health and temperance, and which every Virtue, like a goddess, has in her train to follow her about wherever she goes,—mingle these and not the others; there would be great want of sense in any one who desires to see a fair and perfect mixture, and to find in it what is the highest good in man and in the universe, and to divine what is the true form of good—there would be great want of sense in his allowing the pleasures, which are always in the company of folly and vice, to mingle with mind in the cup.'—Is not this a very rational and suitable reply, which mind has made, both on her own behalf, as well as on the behalf of memory and true opinion?
SOCRATES: Let's illustrate this point: Do you want the biggest and most intense pleasures for your friends, in addition to the genuine ones? 'But Socrates,' they would reply, 'how can we? They cause countless obstacles for us; they disturb the souls of men, which are our dwelling, with their insanity; they prevent us from giving birth to our true potential and often lead to the downfall of the children we do have, making them forgotten and ignored. On the other hand, the true and pure pleasures you mentioned are part of our nature, along with those pleasures that come with health and self-control, which every Virtue, like a goddess, brings along wherever she goes. We should blend these true pleasures, not the others. It would be very foolish to want a beautiful and perfect combination and to seek in it what is the highest good for both humanity and the universe, while also trying to understand the true essence of good—there’s a serious lack of sense in letting pleasures that always accompany foolishness and vice mix with the intellect in this pursuit.'—Isn’t this a very reasonable and appropriate response that the intellect has made, both for itself and in defense of memory and true belief?
PROTARCHUS: Most certainly.
Definitely.
SOCRATES: And still there must be something more added, which is a necessary ingredient in every mixture.
SOCRATES: And there has to be something else included, which is an essential part of every mixture.
PROTARCHUS: What is that?
PROTARCHUS: What's that?
SOCRATES: Unless truth enter into the composition, nothing can truly be created or subsist.
SOCRATES: Unless truth is part of the makeup, nothing can really be created or exist.
PROTARCHUS: Impossible.
PROTARCHUS: No way.
SOCRATES: Quite impossible; and now you and Philebus must tell me whether anything is still wanting in the mixture, for to my way of thinking the argument is now completed, and may be compared to an incorporeal law, which is going to hold fair rule over a living body.
SOCRATES: That's totally impossible; now you and Philebus need to tell me if anything is still missing in the mix, because I believe the argument is now finished and can be compared to a non-physical law that's going to govern a living being.
PROTARCHUS: I agree with you, Socrates.
PROTARCHUS: I’m with you on that, Socrates.
SOCRATES: And may we not say with reason that we are now at the vestibule of the habitation of the good?
SOCRATES: Can we not reasonably say that we are now at the entrance of the place of the good?
PROTARCHUS: I think that we are.
I think we are.
SOCRATES: What, then, is there in the mixture which is most precious, and which is the principal cause why such a state is universally beloved by all? When we have discovered it, we will proceed to ask whether this omnipresent nature is more akin to pleasure or to mind.
SOCRATES: So, what is the most valuable part of the mixture, and what is the main reason why this state is loved by everyone? Once we figure that out, we can then ask whether this widespread nature is more like pleasure or more like intellect.
PROTARCHUS: Quite right; in that way we shall be better able to judge.
PROTARCHUS: That's correct; this way we'll be better able to assess.
SOCRATES: And there is no difficulty in seeing the cause which renders any mixture either of the highest value or of none at all.
SOCRATES: It's easy to see the reason why any mixture can either be highly valuable or completely worthless.
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean?
PROTARCHUS: What do you mean by that?
SOCRATES: Every man knows it.
SOCRATES: Everyone knows it.
PROTARCHUS: What?
Huh?
SOCRATES: He knows that any want of measure and symmetry in any mixture whatever must always of necessity be fatal, both to the elements and to the mixture, which is then not a mixture, but only a confused medley which brings confusion on the possessor of it.
SOCRATES: He understands that any lack of balance and proportion in any mixture will inevitably be disastrous, both for the individual components and for the mixture itself, which then ceases to be a true mixture and becomes just a chaotic jumble that brings confusion to its possessor.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
Absolutely true.
SOCRATES: And now the power of the good has retired into the region of the beautiful; for measure and symmetry are beauty and virtue all the world over.
SOCRATES: And now the power of goodness has moved into the realm of beauty; for balance and harmony represent beauty and virtue everywhere.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: Also we said that truth was to form an element in the mixture.
SOCRATES: We also said that truth would be a part of the mix.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: Then, if we are not able to hunt the good with one idea only, with three we may catch our prey; Beauty, Symmetry, Truth are the three, and these taken together we may regard as the single cause of the mixture, and the mixture as being good by reason of the infusion of them.
SOCRATES: So, if we can't find the good with just one idea, then we might be able to grasp it with three. Beauty, Symmetry, and Truth are the three, and when combined, we can see them as the single reason for the mixture, and the mixture is good because of their presence.
PROTARCHUS: Quite right.
PROTARCHUS: Absolutely.
SOCRATES: And now, Protarchus, any man could decide well enough whether pleasure or wisdom is more akin to the highest good, and more honourable among gods and men.
SOCRATES: And now, Protarchus, anyone could easily figure out whether pleasure or wisdom is closer to the highest good and more respected among gods and humans.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, and yet perhaps the argument had better be pursued to the end.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly, but maybe we should follow the argument through to the end.
SOCRATES: We must take each of them separately in their relation to pleasure and mind, and pronounce upon them; for we ought to see to which of the two they are severally most akin.
SOCRATES: We need to look at each of them individually in relation to pleasure and intellect, and make a judgment; because we should find out which of the two they are most connected to.
PROTARCHUS: You are speaking of beauty, truth, and measure?
PROTARCHUS: Are you talking about beauty, truth, and balance?
SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, take truth first, and, after passing in review mind, truth, pleasure, pause awhile and make answer to yourself—as to whether pleasure or mind is more akin to truth.
SOCRATES: Yes, Protarchus, start with truth, and after considering mind, truth, and pleasure, take a moment and ask yourself—which is closer to truth, pleasure or mind?
PROTARCHUS: There is no need to pause, for the difference between them is palpable; pleasure is the veriest impostor in the world; and it is said that in the pleasures of love, which appear to be the greatest, perjury is excused by the gods; for pleasures, like children, have not the least particle of reason in them; whereas mind is either the same as truth, or the most like truth, and the truest.
PROTARCHUS: There's no reason to stop, because the difference between them is clear; pleasure is the biggest trickster in the world. It's said that in the pleasures of love, which seem to be the greatest, the gods excuse dishonesty; because pleasures, like children, lack any sense of reason. On the other hand, the mind is either the same as truth, or closest to it, and is the truest.
SOCRATES: Shall we next consider measure, in like manner, and ask whether pleasure has more of this than wisdom, or wisdom than pleasure?
SOCRATES: Should we now think about measure in the same way and ask whether pleasure has more of this than wisdom, or wisdom more than pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: Here is another question which may be easily answered; for I imagine that nothing can ever be more immoderate than the transports of pleasure, or more in conformity with measure than mind and knowledge.
PROTARCHUS: Here’s another question that can be easily answered; I believe that nothing can ever be more excessive than the delights of pleasure, or more aligned with balance than the mind and knowledge.
SOCRATES: Very good; but there still remains the third test: Has mind a greater share of beauty than pleasure, and is mind or pleasure the fairer of the two?
SOCRATES: That's great; but we still have to consider the third test: Does the mind have a greater share of beauty than pleasure, and which is more beautiful, the mind or pleasure?
PROTARCHUS: No one, Socrates, either awake or dreaming, ever saw or imagined mind or wisdom to be in aught unseemly, at any time, past, present, or future.
PROTARCHUS: No one, Socrates, whether awake or dreaming, has ever seen or imagined that the mind or wisdom could be in anything unseemly, at any time—past, present, or future.
SOCRATES: Right.
Got it.
PROTARCHUS: But when we see some one indulging in pleasures, perhaps in the greatest of pleasures, the ridiculous or disgraceful nature of the action makes us ashamed; and so we put them out of sight, and consign them to darkness, under the idea that they ought not to meet the eye of day.
PROTARCHUS: But when we see someone indulging in pleasures, maybe the greatest pleasures, the ridiculous or shameful nature of the action makes us feel embarrassed; so we hide them away, thinking they shouldn’t be exposed to the light of day.
SOCRATES: Then, Protarchus, you will proclaim everywhere, by word of mouth to this company, and by messengers bearing the tidings far and wide, that pleasure is not the first of possessions, nor yet the second, but that in measure, and the mean, and the suitable, and the like, the eternal nature has been found.
SOCRATES: So, Protarchus, you will announce everywhere, by word of mouth to this group, and by messengers spreading the news far and wide, that pleasure is not the highest of possessions, nor even the second, but that in balance, moderation, suitability, and similar qualities, the eternal nature has been discovered.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, that seems to be the result of what has been now said.
PROTARCHUS: Yeah, that looks like the conclusion based on what we've just discussed.
SOCRATES: In the second class is contained the symmetrical and beautiful and perfect or sufficient, and all which are of that family.
SOCRATES: The second category includes things that are symmetrical, beautiful, perfect, or adequate, along with everything related to that group.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: For sure.
SOCRATES: And if you reckon in the third class mind and wisdom, you will not be far wrong, if I divine aright.
SOCRATES: And if you consider the third class to be about mind and wisdom, you won't be too far off, if I'm interpreting this correctly.
PROTARCHUS: I dare say.
PROTARCHUS: I guess so.
SOCRATES: And would you not put in the fourth class the goods which we were affirming to appertain specially to the soul—sciences and arts and true opinions as we called them? These come after the third class, and form the fourth, as they are certainly more akin to good than pleasure is.
SOCRATES: Would you not consider the goods that we said particularly belong to the soul—sciences, arts, and what we called true opinions—to be in the fourth class? These come after the third class and make up the fourth, as they are definitely more related to good than pleasure is.
PROTARCHUS: Surely.
Of course.
SOCRATES: The fifth class are the pleasures which were defined by us as painless, being the pure pleasures of the soul herself, as we termed them, which accompany, some the sciences, and some the senses.
SOCRATES: The fifth category consists of pleasures that we described as painless, which are the pure pleasures of the soul itself, as we called them, accompanying some sciences and some senses.
PROTARCHUS: Perhaps.
PROTARCHUS: Maybe.
SOCRATES: And now, as Orpheus says,
SOCRATES: And now, as Orpheus says,
'With the sixth generation cease the glory of my song.'
'With the sixth generation ends the glory of my song.'
Here, at the sixth award, let us make an end; all that remains is to set the crown on our discourse.
Here, at the sixth award, let’s wrap things up; all that’s left is to put the finishing touch on our conversation.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: Then let us sum up and reassert what has been said, thus offering the third libation to the saviour Zeus.
SOCRATES: So let's recap and reaffirm what we've discussed, and in doing so, let's offer the third drink to the savior Zeus.
PROTARCHUS: How?
PROTARCHUS: What?
SOCRATES: Philebus affirmed that pleasure was always and absolutely the good.
SOCRATES: Philebus claimed that pleasure is always and completely the good.
PROTARCHUS: I understand; this third libation, Socrates, of which you spoke, meant a recapitulation.
PROTARCHUS: I get it; this third drink, Socrates, that you mentioned, was meant to summarize things.
SOCRATES: Yes, but listen to the sequel; convinced of what I have just been saying, and feeling indignant at the doctrine, which is maintained, not by Philebus only, but by thousands of others, I affirmed that mind was far better and far more excellent, as an element of human life, than pleasure.
SOCRATES: Yes, but hear me out; convinced of what I've just said, and feeling frustrated by the belief held not just by Philebus but by thousands of others, I asserted that the mind is far better and much more valuable as a part of human life than pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: But, suspecting that there were other things which were also better, I went on to say that if there was anything better than either, then I would claim the second place for mind over pleasure, and pleasure would lose the second place as well as the first.
SOCRATES: But, thinking that there might be other things that were better, I continued by saying that if there was anything better than either one, then I would put the mind in second place over pleasure, and pleasure would drop to second place as well as lose the first.
PROTARCHUS: You did.
You did.
SOCRATES: Nothing could be more satisfactorily shown than the unsatisfactory nature of both of them.
SOCRATES: Nothing could show more clearly than how unsatisfactory both of them are.
PROTARCHUS: Very true.
PROTARCHUS: That's right.
SOCRATES: The claims both of pleasure and mind to be the absolute good have been entirely disproven in this argument, because they are both wanting in self-sufficiency and also in adequacy and perfection.
SOCRATES: The ideas that both pleasure and the intellect represent the ultimate good have been completely refuted in this discussion, as neither of them is self-sufficient, adequate, or perfect.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
PROTARCHUS: So true.
SOCRATES: But, though they must both resign in favour of another, mind is ten thousand times nearer and more akin to the nature of the conqueror than pleasure.
SOCRATES: But, even though they both have to give way for someone else, the mind is a thousand times closer and more similar to the nature of the victor than pleasure.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
Sure.
SOCRATES: And, according to the judgment which has now been given, pleasure will rank fifth.
SOCRATES: And, based on the judgment that has just been made, pleasure will come in fifth place.
PROTARCHUS: True.
PROTARCHUS: Right.
SOCRATES: But not first; no, not even if all the oxen and horses and animals in the world by their pursuit of enjoyment proclaim her to be so;—although the many trusting in them, as diviners trust in birds, determine that pleasures make up the good of life, and deem the lusts of animals to be better witnesses than the inspirations of divine philosophy.
SOCRATES: But not first; no, not even if all the oxen, horses, and animals in the world shout it out by their pursuit of enjoyment;—even though many people, just like diviners trust in birds, believe that pleasures define the good life and think the desires of animals are better guides than the insights of divine philosophy.
PROTARCHUS: And now, Socrates, we tell you that the truth of what you have been saying is approved by the judgment of all of us.
PROTARCHUS: So now, Socrates, we want you to know that we all agree that what you’ve been saying is true.
SOCRATES: And will you let me go?
SOCRATES: So, are you going to let me go?
PROTARCHUS: There is a little which yet remains, and I will remind you of it, for I am sure that you will not be the first to go away from an argument.
PROTARCHUS: There's a bit more left to discuss, and I want to remind you of it, because I’m sure you won’t be the first to walk away from this argument.
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