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LAWS
By Plato
Translated By Benjamin Jowett
INTRODUCTION AND ANALYSIS.
The genuineness of the Laws is sufficiently proved (1) by more than twenty citations of them in the writings of Aristotle, who was residing at Athens during the last twenty years of the life of Plato, and who, having left it after his death (B.C. 347), returned thither twelve years later (B.C. 335); (2) by the allusion of Isocrates
The authenticity of the Laws is clearly demonstrated (1) by over twenty references to them in Aristotle's writings, who lived in Athens during the last twenty years of Plato's life, and who left after Plato's death (B.C. 347) but returned twelve years later (B.C. 335); (2) by the mention from Isocrates
(Oratio ad Philippum missa, p.84: To men tais paneguresin enochlein kai pros apantas legein tous sunprechontas en autais pros oudena legein estin, all omoios oi toioutoi ton logon (sc. speeches in the assembly) akuroi tugchanousin ontes tois nomois kai tais politeiais tais upo ton sophiston gegrammenais.) —writing 346 B.C., a year after the death of Plato, and probably not more than three or four years after the composition of the Laws—who speaks of the Laws and Republics written by philosophers (upo ton sophiston); (3) by the reference (Athen.) of the comic poet Alexis, a younger contemporary of Plato (fl. B.C 356-306), to the enactment about prices, which occurs in Laws xi., viz that the same goods should not be offered at two prices on the same day
(Oratio ad Philippum missa, p.84: It is pointless for people to gather for speeches and talk about everything but the real issues at hand; they resemble those who participate in speeches (sc. speeches in the assembly) that end up being meaningless, as they are disconnected from the laws and the governments written by the philosophers. —written 346 B.C., a year after Plato's death, and probably not more than three or four years after the composition of the Laws—who discusses the Laws and Republics authored by philosophers (by the philosophers); (3) by the reference (Athen.) of the comic poet Alexis, a younger contemporary of Plato (fl. B.C 356-306), to the legislation regarding prices, which is mentioned in Laws xi., specifically that the same goods should not be sold at two different prices on the same day
(Ou gegone kreitton nomothetes tou plousiou Aristonikou tithesi gar nuni nomon, ton ichthuopolon ostis an polon tini ichthun upotimesas apodot elattonos es eipe times, eis to desmoterion euthus apagesthai touton, ina dedoikotes tes axias agaposin, e tes esperas saprous apantas apopherosin oikade.
(Ou gegone kreitton nomothetes tou plousiou Aristonikou tithesi gar nuni nomon, ton ichthuopolon ostis an polon tini ichthun upotimesas apodot elattonos es eipe times, eis to desmoterion euthus apagesthai touton, ina dedoikotes tes axias agaposin, e tes esperas saprous apantas apopherosin oikade.
Meineke, Frag. Com. Graec.); (4) by the unanimous voice of later antiquity and the absence of any suspicion among ancient writers worth speaking of to the contrary; for it is not said of Philippus of Opus that he composed any part of the Laws, but only that he copied them out of the waxen tablets, and was thought by some to have written the Epinomis (Diog. Laert.) That the longest and one of the best writings bearing the name of Plato should be a forgery, even if its genuineness were unsupported by external testimony, would be a singular phenomenon in ancient literature; and although the critical worth of the consensus of late writers is generally not to be compared with the express testimony of contemporaries, yet a somewhat greater value may be attributed to their consent in the present instance, because the admission of the Laws is combined with doubts about the Epinomis, a spurious writing, which is a kind of epilogue to the larger work probably of a much later date. This shows that the reception of the Laws was not altogether undiscriminating.
Meineke, Frag. Com. Graec.); (4) by the unanimous agreement of later antiquity and the lack of any significant suspicion among ancient writers to the contrary; because it’s not mentioned that Philippus of Opus composed any part of the Laws, only that he copied them from the wax tablets, and some thought he wrote the Epinomis (Diog. Laert.). The idea that the longest and one of the best works attributed to Plato could be a forgery, even without external evidence supporting its authenticity, would be an unusual occurrence in ancient literature. Although the critical value of the agreement among later writers is generally not comparable to the clear testimony of contemporaries, in this case, their consensus holds somewhat greater weight because the acceptance of the Laws comes with doubts about the Epinomis, which is considered a spurious text, essentially an epilogue to the larger work likely written much later. This indicates that the acceptance of the Laws was not completely uncritical.
The suspicion which has attached to the Laws of Plato in the judgment of some modern writers appears to rest partly (1) on differences in the style and form of the work, and (2) on differences of thought and opinion which they observe in them. Their suspicion is increased by the fact that these differences are accompanied by resemblances as striking to passages in other Platonic writings. They are sensible of a want of point in the dialogue and a general inferiority in the ideas, plan, manners, and style. They miss the poetical flow, the dramatic verisimilitude, the life and variety of the characters, the dialectic subtlety, the Attic purity, the luminous order, the exquisite urbanity; instead of which they find tautology, obscurity, self-sufficiency, sermonizing, rhetorical declamation, pedantry, egotism, uncouth forms of sentences, and peculiarities in the use of words and idioms. They are unable to discover any unity in the patched, irregular structure. The speculative element both in government and education is superseded by a narrow economical or religious vein. The grace and cheerfulness of Athenian life have disappeared; and a spirit of moroseness and religious intolerance has taken their place. The charm of youth is no longer there; the mannerism of age makes itself unpleasantly felt. The connection is often imperfect; and there is a want of arrangement, exhibited especially in the enumeration of the laws towards the end of the work. The Laws are full of flaws and repetitions. The Greek is in places very ungrammatical and intractable. A cynical levity is displayed in some passages, and a tone of disappointment and lamentation over human things in others. The critics seem also to observe in them bad imitations of thoughts which are better expressed in Plato's other writings. Lastly, they wonder how the mind which conceived the Republic could have left the Critias, Hermocrates, and Philosophus incomplete or unwritten, and have devoted the last years of life to the Laws.
The skepticism surrounding Plato's Laws among some modern writers seems to stem partly from (1) differences in style and structure, and (2) various thoughts and opinions they notice within the text. Their doubt is amplified by the fact that these differences are accompanied by notable similarities to passages found in other Platonic works. They feel there’s a lack of focus in the dialogue and an overall lower quality in the ideas, organization, tone, and style. They miss the poetic flow, dramatic believability, the vibrancy and diversity of the characters, the sharpness of argument, the Attic purity, clear organization, and refined wit; instead, they encounter repetition, confusion, self-importance, moral lecturing, rhetorical grandstanding, pretentiousness, self-absorption, awkward sentence structures, and oddities in word choice and idioms. They struggle to find any cohesion in the uneven, irregular framework. The philosophical elements concerning governance and education are overshadowed by a narrow economic or religious focus. The ease and joy of Athenian life have vanished, replaced by a mood of gloom and religious intolerance. The freshness of youth is absent; instead, the unpleasant stiffening of age is felt. The connections among ideas are often weak, and there's a lack of organization, particularly evident in the listing of laws at the end of the work. The Laws are riddled with flaws and redundancies. The Greek language is at times very ungrammatical and difficult to navigate. A cynical flippancy appears in some sections, while in others, there's a tone of disappointment and sorrow regarding human affairs. Critics also note poor imitations of ideas that are better articulated in Plato's other writings. Finally, they ponder how the same mind that created the Republic could leave the Critias, Hermocrates, and Philosophus unfinished or unwritten and spend the later years of its life focused on the Laws.
The questions which have been thus indirectly suggested may be considered by us under five or six heads: I, the characters; II, the plan; III, the style; IV, the imitations of other writings of Plato; V; the more general relation of the Laws to the Republic and the other dialogues; and VI, to the existing Athenian and Spartan states.
The questions that have been indirectly raised can be grouped into five or six categories: I, the characters; II, the structure; III, the writing style; IV, the influences from other works of Plato; V, the broader connection of the Laws to the Republic and the other dialogues; and VI, the relationship to the current Athenian and Spartan states.
I. Already in the Philebus the distinctive character of Socrates has disappeared; and in the Timaeus, Sophist, and Statesman his function of chief speaker is handed over to the Pythagorean philosopher Timaeus, and to the Eleatic Stranger, at whose feet he sits, and is silent. More and more Plato seems to have felt in his later writings that the character and method of Socrates were no longer suited to be the vehicle of his own philosophy. He is no longer interrogative but dogmatic; not 'a hesitating enquirer,' but one who speaks with the authority of a legislator. Even in the Republic we have seen that the argument which is carried on by Socrates in the old style with Thrasymachus in the first book, soon passes into the form of exposition. In the Laws he is nowhere mentioned. Yet so completely in the tradition of antiquity is Socrates identified with Plato, that in the criticism of the Laws which we find in the so-called Politics of Aristotle he is supposed by the writer still to be playing his part of the chief speaker (compare Pol.).
I. By the time we reach the Philebus, Socrates’ unique character has faded; in the Timaeus, Sophist, and Statesman, his role as the main speaker is taken over by the Pythagorean philosopher Timaeus and the Eleatic Stranger, at whose feet he now sits in silence. It seems that in his later works, Plato increasingly felt that the character and methods of Socrates were no longer appropriate to convey his own philosophy. He is no longer questioning but assertive; not 'an unsure inquirer,' but someone who speaks with the authority of a lawmaker. Even in the Republic, we see that the dialogue Socrates has with Thrasymachus in the first book, which follows the old style, quickly shifts to a form of exposition. In the Laws, Socrates is not mentioned at all. However, Socrates is so closely linked to Plato in the traditions of antiquity that in Aristotle's critique of the Laws, found in the so-called Politics, the writer assumes he is still taking on the role of the main speaker (see Pol.).
The Laws are discussed by three representatives of Athens, Crete, and Sparta. The Athenian, as might be expected, is the protagonist or chief speaker, while the second place is assigned to the Cretan, who, as one of the leaders of a new colony, has a special interest in the conversation. At least four-fifths of the answers are put into his mouth. The Spartan is every inch a soldier, a man of few words himself, better at deeds than words. The Athenian talks to the two others, although they are his equals in age, in the style of a master discoursing to his scholars; he frequently praises himself; he entertains a very poor opinion of the understanding of his companions. Certainly the boastfulness and rudeness of the Laws is the reverse of the refined irony and courtesy which characterize the earlier dialogues. We are no longer in such good company as in the Phaedrus and Symposium. Manners are lost sight of in the earnestness of the speakers, and dogmatic assertions take the place of poetical fancies.
The Laws are discussed by three representatives from Athens, Crete, and Sparta. The Athenian, as expected, is the main speaker, while the Cretan, who is one of the leaders of a new colony, has a particular interest in the discussion. At least four-fifths of the responses come from him. The Spartan is the epitome of a soldier, a man of few words who is better at actions than talking. The Athenian addresses the other two, even though they are his equals in age, like a teacher lecturing his students; he often praises himself and has a very low opinion of his companions' understanding. The Athenian's arrogance and bluntness in the Laws contrast sharply with the refined irony and politeness found in earlier dialogues. We are no longer in the same esteemed company as in the Phaedrus and Symposium. Courtesy is overshadowed by the seriousness of the speakers, and definitive statements replace poetic ideas.
The scene is laid in Crete, and the conversation is held in the course of a walk from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus, which takes place on one of the longest and hottest days of the year. The companions start at dawn, and arrive at the point in their conversation which terminates the fourth book, about noon. The God to whose temple they are going is the lawgiver of Crete, and this may be supposed to be the very cave at which he gave his oracles to Minos. But the externals of the scene, which are briefly and inartistically described, soon disappear, and we plunge abruptly into the subject of the dialogue. We are reminded by contrast of the higher art of the Phaedrus, in which the summer's day, and the cool stream, and the chirping of the grasshoppers, and the fragrance of the agnus castus, and the legends of the place are present to the imagination throughout the discourse.
The setting is Crete, and the discussion takes place during a walk from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus, on one of the longest and hottest days of the year. The friends start at dawn and reach the point in their conversation that ends the fourth book around noon. The deity they’re heading to is the lawgiver of Crete, and this is likely the very cave where he delivered oracles to Minos. However, the details of the scene, which are described briefly and somewhat clumsily, quickly fade away as we dive straight into the dialogue. In contrast, we recall the more refined art of the Phaedrus, where the summer day, the cool stream, the chirping of crickets, the scent of agnus castus, and the local legends fill the imagination throughout the conversation.
The typical Athenian apologizes for the tendency of his countrymen 'to spin a long discussion out of slender materials,' and in a similar spirit the Lacedaemonian Megillus apologizes for the Spartan brevity (compare Thucydid.), acknowledging at the same time that there may be occasions when long discourses are necessary. The family of Megillus is the proxenus of Athens at Sparta; and he pays a beautiful compliment to the Athenian, significant of the character of the work, which, though borrowing many elements from Sparta, is also pervaded by an Athenian spirit. A good Athenian, he says, is more than ordinarily good, because he is inspired by nature and not manufactured by law. The love of listening which is attributed to the Timocrat in the Republic is also exhibited in him. The Athenian on his side has a pleasure in speaking to the Lacedaemonian of the struggle in which their ancestors were jointly engaged against the Persians. A connexion with Athens is likewise intimated by the Cretan Cleinias. He is the relative of Epimenides, whom, by an anachronism of a century,—perhaps arising as Zeller suggests (Plat. Stud.) out of a confusion of the visit of Epimenides and Diotima (Symp.),—he describes as coming to Athens, not after the attempt of Cylon, but ten years before the Persian war. The Cretan and Lacedaemonian hardly contribute at all to the argument of which the Athenian is the expounder; they only supply information when asked about the institutions of their respective countries. A kind of simplicity or stupidity is ascribed to them. At first, they are dissatisfied with the free criticisms which the Athenian passes upon the laws of Minos and Lycurgus, but they acquiesce in his greater experience and knowledge of the world. They admit that there can be no objection to the enquiry; for in the spirit of the legislator himself, they are discussing his laws when there are no young men present to listen. They are unwilling to allow that the Spartan and Cretan lawgivers can have been mistaken in honouring courage as the first part of virtue, and are puzzled at hearing for the first time that 'Goods are only evil to the evil.' Several times they are on the point of quarrelling, and by an effort learn to restrain their natural feeling (compare Shakespeare, Henry V, act iii. sc. 2). In Book vii., the Lacedaemonian expresses a momentary irritation at the accusation which the Athenian brings against the Spartan institutions, of encouraging licentiousness in their women, but he is reminded by the Cretan that the permission to criticize them freely has been given, and cannot be retracted. His only criterion of truth is the authority of the Spartan lawgiver; he is 'interested,' in the novel speculations of the Athenian, but inclines to prefer the ordinances of Lycurgus.
The average Athenian apologizes for how his countrymen "tend to stretch out a discussion over thin topics," and in a similar vein, the Spartan Megillus apologizes for the brevity of his people (see Thucydides), while also acknowledging that there are times when longer discussions are necessary. Megillus's family serves as the proxenus of Athens in Sparta, and he offers a flattering compliment to the Athenian that highlights the nature of the work, which, although it takes many ideas from Sparta, is still infused with an Athenian spirit. A good Athenian, he says, is exceptionally good because he is inspired by nature rather than shaped by law. The love of listening, attributed to the Timocrat in the Republic, is also present in him. The Athenian enjoys talking to the Lacedaemonian about the struggle their ancestors faced together against the Persians. The Cretan Cleinias also hints at a connection with Athens. He is related to Epimenides, whom, due to a century’s anachronism—perhaps stemming from a mix-up of the visits of Epimenides and Diotima (see Symposium)—he describes as coming to Athens, not after Cylon's attempt, but ten years before the Persian war. The Cretan and Lacedaemonian contribute very little to the Athenian's exposition; they only provide information when asked about the customs of their respective lands. They are ascribed a kind of simplicity or naiveté. At first, they are unhappy with the free criticisms the Athenian directs at the laws of Minos and Lycurgus, but they eventually accept his greater experience and worldly knowledge. They agree that there’s no harm in the inquiry; because in the spirit of the lawgiver himself, they discuss his laws when there are no young men around to listen. They are reluctant to concede that the Spartan and Cretan lawgivers might have been wrong in valuing courage as the highest form of virtue and are perplexed to hear for the first time that "Goods are only evil to the evil." Several times, they nearly come to blows but learn to hold back their natural feelings (see Shakespeare, Henry V, act iii, sc. 2). In Book VII, the Lacedaemonian shows brief irritation at the Athenian's accusation that Spartan institutions promote looseness among their women, but the Cretan reminds him that they agreed to allow free criticism, which cannot be taken back. His only standard for truth is the authority of the Spartan lawmaker; he is "interested" in the new ideas offered by the Athenian but leans towards favoring the regulations set by Lycurgus.
The three interlocutors all of them speak in the character of old men, which forms a pleasant bond of union between them. They have the feelings of old age about youth, about the state, about human things in general. Nothing in life seems to be of much importance to them; they are spectators rather than actors, and men in general appear to the Athenian speaker to be the playthings of the Gods and of circumstances. Still they have a fatherly care of the young, and are deeply impressed by sentiments of religion. They would give confidence to the aged by an increasing use of wine, which, as they get older, is to unloose their tongues and make them sing. The prospect of the existence of the soul after death is constantly present to them; though they can hardly be said to have the cheerful hope and resignation which animates Socrates in the Phaedo or Cephalus in the Republic. Plato appears to be expressing his own feelings in remarks of this sort. For at the time of writing the first book of the Laws he was at least seventy-four years of age, if we suppose him to allude to the victory of the Syracusans under Dionysius the Younger over the Locrians, which occurred in the year 356. Such a sadness was the natural effect of declining years and failing powers, which make men ask, 'After all, what profit is there in life?' They feel that their work is beginning to be over, and are ready to say, 'All the world is a stage;' or, in the actual words of Plato, 'Let us play as good plays as we can,' though 'we must be sometimes serious, which is not agreeable, but necessary.' These are feelings which have crossed the minds of reflective persons in all ages, and there is no reason to connect the Laws any more than other parts of Plato's writings with the very uncertain narrative of his life, or to imagine that this melancholy tone is attributable to disappointment at having failed to convert a Sicilian tyrant into a philosopher.
The three speakers all act like old men, which creates a nice sense of connection among them. They have the outlook of the elderly regarding youth, the state, and life in general. Nothing in life seems to matter much to them; they're more like observers than participants, and the Athenian speaker views people as playthings of the Gods and circumstances. Still, they care for the youth and are deeply affected by feelings of spirituality. They would boost the confidence of the elderly by drinking more wine, which, as they age, is meant to loosen them up and make them sing. The idea of the soul existing after death is always on their minds; although they don’t quite share the cheerful hope and acceptance that Socrates has in the Phaedo or Cephalus in the Republic. Plato seems to be reflecting his own thoughts in these comments. By the time he wrote the first book of the Laws, he was at least seventy-four years old, if he refers to the Syracusans' victory under Dionysius the Younger over the Locrians in 356. Such sadness is a natural outcome of aging and declining abilities, leading people to ask, 'What’s the point of life anyway?' They sense that their time is winding down and are ready to say, 'All the world is a stage;' or in Plato's actual words, 'Let us put on the best plays we can,' even though 'we have to be serious sometimes, which isn’t enjoyable, but it’s necessary.' These are thoughts that have crossed the minds of thoughtful people throughout history, and there's no reason to link the Laws more than other parts of Plato's works to the uncertain story of his life, or to think that this melancholy tone comes from his frustration at not turning a Sicilian tyrant into a philosopher.
II. The plan of the Laws is more irregular and has less connexion than any other of the writings of Plato. As Aristotle says in the Politics, 'The greater part consists of laws'; in Books v, vi, xi, xii the dialogue almost entirely disappears. Large portions of them are rather the materials for a work than a finished composition which may rank with the other Platonic dialogues. To use his own image, 'Some stones are regularly inserted in the building; others are lying on the ground ready for use.' There is probably truth in the tradition that the Laws were not published until after the death of Plato. We can easily believe that he has left imperfections, which would have been removed if he had lived a few years longer. The arrangement might have been improved; the connexion of the argument might have been made plainer, and the sentences more accurately framed. Something also may be attributed to the feebleness of old age. Even a rough sketch of the Phaedrus or Symposium would have had a very different look. There is, however, an interest in possessing one writing of Plato which is in the process of creation.
II. The structure of the Laws is more chaotic and less connected than any of Plato's other writings. As Aristotle mentions in the Politics, 'Most of it is made up of laws'; in Books v, vi, xi, and xii, the dialogue nearly vanishes. Much of it serves more as raw material for a work than as a polished piece that can be compared to the other Platonic dialogues. To use his own metaphor, 'Some stones are neatly placed in the construction; others are just sitting on the ground, ready to be used.' It’s likely true that the Laws weren’t published until after Plato died. It’s easy to believe he left some imperfections that he could have fixed had he lived a few more years. The organization could have been better; the flow of the argument could have been clearer, and the sentences could have been written more precisely. Some of this may also be due to the frailty of old age. Even a rough draft of the Phaedrus or Symposium would have looked very different. Still, there’s something intriguing about having one of Plato’s writings that’s actively in the process of being created.
We must endeavour to find a thread of order which will carry us through this comparative disorder. The first four books are described by Plato himself as the preface or preamble. Having arrived at the conclusion that each law should have a preamble, the lucky thought occurs to him at the end of the fourth book that the preceding discourse is the preamble of the whole. This preamble or introduction may be abridged as follows:—
We need to try to find a thread of order that will guide us through this relative chaos. Plato himself refers to the first four books as the introduction or preamble. He concludes that each law should have a preamble, and it occurs to him at the end of the fourth book that the earlier discussion serves as the preamble for the whole work. This preamble or introduction can be summarized as follows:—
The institutions of Sparta and Crete are admitted by the Lacedaemonian and Cretan to have one aim only: they were intended by the legislator to inspire courage in war. To this the Athenian objects that the true lawgiver should frame his laws with a view to all the virtues and not to one only. Better is he who has temperance as well as courage, than he who has courage only; better is he who is faithful in civil broils, than he who is a good soldier only. Better, too, is peace than war; the reconciliation than the defeat of an enemy. And he who would attain all virtue should be trained amid pleasures as well as pains. Hence there should be convivial intercourse among the citizens, and a man's temperance should be tested in his cups, as we test his courage amid dangers. He should have a fear of the right sort, as well as a courage of the right sort.
The systems in Sparta and Crete are recognized by the people of Lacedaemon and Crete to have one primary purpose: they were designed by their lawmakers to instill courage for battle. The Athenian argues that a true legislator should create laws that promote all virtues, not just one. It is better to have both self-control and bravery than to possess bravery alone; it is preferable to be loyal during civil conflicts than just to be a good soldier. Peace is also better than war, and reconciliation is preferable to the defeat of an enemy. To achieve all virtues, one must be trained in both pleasure and pain. Therefore, there should be social gatherings among citizens, and a person's self-control should be tested while drinking, just as we evaluate their courage in dangerous situations. They should have the right kind of fear, along with the right kind of bravery.
At the beginning of the second book the subject of pleasure leads to education, which in the early years of life is wholly a discipline imparted by the means of pleasure and pain. The discipline of pleasure is implanted chiefly by the practice of the song and the dance. Of these the forms should be fixed, and not allowed to depend on the fickle breath of the multitude. There will be choruses of boys, girls, and grown-up persons, and all will be heard repeating the same strain, that 'virtue is happiness.' One of them will give the law to the rest; this will be the chorus of aged minstrels, who will sing the most beautiful and the most useful of songs. They will require a little wine, to mellow the austerity of age, and make them amenable to the laws.
At the start of the second book, the topic of pleasure leads to education, which in early life is entirely about discipline taught through pleasure and pain. The discipline of pleasure is mainly established through singing and dancing. The forms should be fixed and not subject to the unpredictable whims of the crowd. There will be groups of boys, girls, and adults, all echoing the same message: 'virtue is happiness.' One will set the rules for the others; this will be the group of older singers, who will perform the most beautiful and useful songs. They will need a little wine to soften the seriousness of age and make them more open to the laws.
After having laid down as the first principle of politics, that peace, and not war, is the true aim of the legislator, and briefly discussed music and festive intercourse, at the commencement of the third book Plato makes a digression, in which he speaks of the origin of society. He describes, first of all, the family; secondly, the patriarchal stage, which is an aggregation of families; thirdly, the founding of regular cities, like Ilium; fourthly, the establishment of a military and political system, like that of Sparta, with which he identifies Argos and Messene, dating from the return of the Heraclidae. But the aims of states should be good, or else, like the prayer of Theseus, they may be ruinous to themselves. This was the case in two out of three of the Heracleid kingdoms. They did not understand that the powers in a state should be balanced. The balance of powers saved Sparta, while the excess of tyranny in Persia and the excess of liberty at Athens have been the ruin of both...This discourse on politics is suddenly discovered to have an immediate practical use; for Cleinias the Cretan is about to give laws to a new colony.
After establishing that peace, not war, is the true goal of legislators, and briefly talking about music and festive gatherings, Plato takes a moment in the third book to discuss the origins of society. He outlines the family first; then the patriarchal stage, which is a collection of families; next, the creation of organized cities, like Ilium; followed by the formation of a military and political system, similar to that of Sparta, which he connects to Argos and Messene, tracing back to the return of the Heraclidae. However, the goals of states should be virtuous, otherwise, as Theseus prayed, they could lead to their own downfall. This was true for two out of the three Heracleid kingdoms. They failed to recognize that power within a state needs to be balanced. The balance of power preserved Sparta, while excess tyranny in Persia and excessive freedom in Athens led to both their downfalls... This discussion about politics suddenly proves to have an immediate practical application, as Cleinias the Cretan is about to establish laws for a new colony.
At the beginning of the fourth book, after enquiring into the circumstances and situation of the colony, the Athenian proceeds to make further reflections. Chance, and God, and the skill of the legislator, all co-operate in the formation of states. And the most favourable condition for the foundation of a new one is when the government is in the hands of a virtuous tyrant who has the good fortune to be the contemporary of a great legislator. But a virtuous tyrant is a contradiction in terms; we can at best only hope to have magistrates who are the servants of reason and the law. This leads to the enquiry, what is to be the polity of our new state. And the answer is, that we are to fear God, and honour our parents, and to cultivate virtue and justice; these are to be our first principles. Laws must be definite, and we should create in the citizens a predisposition to obey them. The legislator will teach as well as command; and with this view he will prefix preambles to his principal laws.
At the start of the fourth book, after looking into the circumstances and situation of the colony, the Athenian goes on to reflect further. Chance, God, and the skill of the legislator all work together in the creation of states. The best condition for starting a new one is when the government is led by a virtuous tyrant lucky enough to be around at the same time as a great legislator. However, a virtuous tyrant is a contradiction; we can only hope to have leaders who are the servants of reason and the law. This raises the question of what the governance of our new state will be. The answer is that we should fear God, honor our parents, and nurture virtue and justice; these are our foundational principles. Laws need to be clear, and we should instill a tendency in citizens to follow them. The legislator will educate as well as command; to that end, he will include preambles to his main laws.
The fifth book commences in a sort of dithyramb with another and higher preamble about the honour due to the soul, whence are deduced the duties of a man to his parents and his friends, to the suppliant and stranger. He should be true and just, free from envy and excess of all sorts, forgiving to crimes which are not incurable and are partly involuntary; and he should have a true taste. The noblest life has the greatest pleasures and the fewest pains...Having finished the preamble, and touched on some other preliminary considerations, we proceed to the Laws, beginning with the constitution of the state. This is not the best or ideal state, having all things common, but only the second-best, in which the land and houses are to be distributed among 5040 citizens divided into four classes. There is to be no gold or silver among them, and they are to have moderate wealth, and to respect number and numerical order in all things.
The fifth book starts with an enthusiastic introduction that emphasizes the respect owed to the soul, which leads to the responsibilities of a person towards their parents and friends, as well as to the needy and outsiders. A person should be honest and fair, free from jealousy and excess of any kind, forgiving towards offenses that are not severe and are somewhat unintentional; they should also have good judgment. The best life brings the greatest joys and the least suffering... After wrapping up the introduction and discussing a few other initial points, we move on to the Laws, starting with the structure of the state. This isn't the ideal state where everything is shared, but rather a second-best option, where land and homes are allocated among 5040 citizens divided into four classes. There will be no gold or silver among them, and they are expected to have moderate wealth, as well as to value numbers and order in everything.
In the first part of the sixth book, Plato completes his sketch of the constitution by the appointment of officers. He explains the manner in which guardians of the law, generals, priests, wardens of town and country, ministers of education, and other magistrates are to be appointed; and also in what way courts of appeal are to be constituted, and omissions in the law to be supplied. Next—and at this point the Laws strictly speaking begin—there follow enactments respecting marriage and the procreation of children, respecting property in slaves as well as of other kinds, respecting houses, married life, common tables for men and women. The question of age in marriage suggests the consideration of a similar question about the time for holding offices, and for military service, which had been previously omitted.
In the first part of the sixth book, Plato completes his outline of the constitution by appointing officials. He describes how the guardians of the law, generals, priests, town and country wardens, education ministers, and other magistrates will be selected, as well as how courts of appeal will be structured and any gaps in the law will be addressed. Next—and this marks the official beginning of the Laws—he covers regulations regarding marriage and having children, property ownership for slaves and other assets, housing, married life, and communal meals for men and women. The topic of marriage age brings up a similar issue regarding when individuals can hold office and serve in the military, which had not been addressed earlier.
Resuming the order of the discussion, which was indicated in the previous book, from marriage and birth we proceed to education in the seventh book. Education is to begin at or rather before birth; to be continued for a time by mothers and nurses under the supervision of the state; finally, to comprehend music and gymnastics. Under music is included reading, writing, playing on the lyre, arithmetic, geometry, and a knowledge of astronomy sufficient to preserve the minds of the citizens from impiety in after-life. Gymnastics are to be practised chiefly with a view to their use in war. The discussion of education, which was lightly touched upon in Book ii, is here completed.
Continuing the order of discussion outlined in the previous book, we move from marriage and childbirth to education in the seventh book. Education should start at or even before birth, and continue for some time under the care of mothers and nurses, with oversight from the state. It should ultimately include music and physical training. Music encompasses reading, writing, playing the lyre, arithmetic, geometry, and enough knowledge of astronomy to keep citizens' minds from becoming impious later in life. Physical training should primarily focus on preparing individuals for war. The discussion on education, which was briefly mentioned in Book II, is now fully addressed.
The eighth book contains regulations for civil life, beginning with festivals, games, and contests, military exercises and the like. On such occasions Plato seems to see young men and maidens meeting together, and hence he is led into discussing the relations of the sexes, the evil consequences which arise out of the indulgence of the passions, and the remedies for them. Then he proceeds to speak of agriculture, of arts and trades, of buying and selling, and of foreign commerce.
The eighth book outlines rules for everyday life, starting with festivals, games, contests, military training, and similar activities. During these events, Plato appears to envision young men and women coming together, which leads him to discuss gender relations, the negative outcomes of giving in to desires, and how to address these issues. He then moves on to talk about farming, various crafts and trades, buying and selling, and international trade.
The remaining books of the Laws, ix-xii, are chiefly concerned with criminal offences. In the first class are placed offences against the Gods, especially sacrilege or robbery of temples: next follow offences against the state,—conspiracy, treason, theft. The mention of thefts suggests a distinction between voluntary and involuntary, curable and incurable offences. Proceeding to the greater crime of homicide, Plato distinguishes between mere homicide, manslaughter, which is partly voluntary and partly involuntary, and murder, which arises from avarice, ambition, fear. He also enumerates murders by kindred, murders by slaves, wounds with or without intent to kill, wounds inflicted in anger, crimes of or against slaves, insults to parents. To these, various modes of purification or degrees of punishment are assigned, and the terrors of another world are also invoked against them.
The remaining books of the Laws, ix-xii, mainly focus on criminal offenses. The first category includes offenses against the Gods, particularly sacrilege or the theft of temple property; next come offenses against the state—conspiracy, treason, and theft. The mention of theft highlights a distinction between voluntary and involuntary offenses, as well as curable and incurable ones. Moving on to the more serious crime of homicide, Plato differentiates between simple homicide, manslaughter, which is partly voluntary and partly involuntary, and murder, which comes from greed, ambition, or fear. He also lists various types of murder—murders committed by family members, murders by slaves, injuries with or without the intent to kill, injuries inflicted in anger, crimes involving or against slaves, and insults towards parents. Different methods of purification and varying degrees of punishment are assigned to these offenses, and the fears of the afterlife are also invoked against them.
At the beginning of Book x, all acts of violence, including sacrilege, are summed up in a single law. The law is preceded by an admonition, in which the offenders are informed that no one ever did an unholy act or said an unlawful word while he retained his belief in the existence of the Gods; but either he denied their existence, or he believed that they took no care of man, or that they might be turned from their course by sacrifices and prayers. The remainder of the book is devoted to the refutation of these three classes of unbelievers, and concludes with the means to be taken for their reformation, and the announcement of their punishments if they continue obstinate and impenitent.
At the start of Book x, all acts of violence, including sacrilege, are covered by a single law. This law is introduced with a warning that explains to offenders that no one ever committed an unholy act or spoke an unlawful word while truly believing in the existence of the Gods; instead, they either denied their existence, thought the Gods didn't care about humanity, or believed that sacrifices and prayers could influence them. The rest of the book focuses on disproving these three types of nonbelievers and ends with suggestions for their reform and a description of the punishments they will face if they remain stubborn and unrepentant.
The eleventh book is taken up with laws and with admonitions relating to individuals, which follow one another without any exact order. There are laws concerning deposits and the finding of treasure; concerning slaves and freedmen; concerning retail trade, bequests, divorces, enchantments, poisonings, magical arts, and the like. In the twelfth book the same subjects are continued. Laws are passed concerning violations of military discipline, concerning the high office of the examiners and their burial; concerning oaths and the violation of them, and the punishments of those who neglect their duties as citizens. Foreign travel is then discussed, and the permission to be accorded to citizens of journeying in foreign parts; the strangers who may come to visit the city are also spoken of, and the manner in which they are to be received. Laws are added respecting sureties, searches for property, right of possession by prescription, abduction of witnesses, theatrical competition, waging of private warfare, and bribery in offices. Rules are laid down respecting taxation, respecting economy in sacred rites, respecting judges, their duties and sentences, and respecting sepulchral places and ceremonies. Here the Laws end. Lastly, a Nocturnal Council is instituted for the preservation of the state, consisting of older and younger members, who are to exhibit in their lives that virtue which is the basis of the state, to know the one in many, and to be educated in divine and every other kind of knowledge which will enable them to fulfil their office.
The eleventh book focuses on laws and guidelines related to individuals, presented in no specific order. It covers laws about deposits and treasure finds, as well as issues concerning slaves and freedmen, retail trade, bequests, divorces, charms, poisonings, magical practices, and similar topics. The twelfth book continues with these subjects, enacting laws regarding breaches of military discipline, the high-ranking examiners and their burials, oaths and their violations, and penalties for those who fail to uphold their civic duties. It also discusses foreign travel, granting permission for citizens to journey abroad, as well as regulations for welcoming visiting foreigners. Additional laws pertain to sureties, property searches, rights to possession by prescription, witness abductions, theatrical competitions, private warfare, and bribery in public offices. Guidelines are established regarding taxation, responsible practices in sacred ceremonies, judges and their responsibilities and verdicts, and funeral sites and rituals. This concludes the Laws. Finally, a Night Council is established to support the state, made up of both older and younger members, who are expected to demonstrate the virtue essential for the state, to understand unity in diversity, and to be educated in both divine and various other knowledge to effectively carry out their roles.
III. The style of the Laws differs in several important respects from that of the other dialogues of Plato: (1) in the want of character, power, and lively illustration; (2) in the frequency of mannerisms (compare Introduction to the Philebus); (3) in the form and rhythm of the sentences; (4) in the use of words. On the other hand, there are many passages (5) which are characterized by a sort of ethical grandeur; and (6) in which, perhaps, a greater insight into human nature, and a greater reach of practical wisdom is shown, than in any other of Plato's writings.
III. The style of the Laws is different in several important ways from Plato's other dialogues: (1) it lacks character, energy, and vivid examples; (2) it has many repeated patterns (see Introduction to the Philebus); (3) the structure and rhythm of the sentences vary; (4) the choice of words differs. However, there are many sections (5) that display a sort of ethical nobleness; and (6) in these sections, there might be a deeper understanding of human nature and a wider scope of practical wisdom than in any of Plato's other works.
1. The discourse of the three old men is described by themselves as an old man's game of play. Yet there is little of the liveliness of a game in their mode of treating the subject. They do not throw the ball to and fro, but two out of the three are listeners to the third, who is constantly asserting his superior wisdom and opportunities of knowledge, and apologizing (not without reason) for his own want of clearness of speech. He will 'carry them over the stream;' he will answer for them when the argument is beyond their comprehension; he is afraid of their ignorance of mathematics, and thinks that gymnastic is likely to be more intelligible to them;—he has repeated his words several times, and yet they cannot understand him. The subject did not properly take the form of dialogue, and also the literary vigour of Plato had passed away. The old men speak as they might be expected to speak, and in this there is a touch of dramatic truth. Plato has given the Laws that form or want of form which indicates the failure of natural power. There is no regular plan—none of that consciousness of what has preceded and what is to follow, which makes a perfect style,—but there are several attempts at a plan; the argument is 'pulled up,' and frequent explanations are offered why a particular topic was introduced.
1. The conversation between the three old men is described by them as an old man's game. However, there's not much playfulness in how they approach the topic. Instead of tossing ideas back and forth, two of the three listen to the third, who constantly claims to have greater wisdom and knowledge, while also apologizing (with good reason) for his unclear speech. He will "carry them over the stream"; he will explain things for them when the arguments are too complex for their understanding; he worries about their lack of knowledge in math and thinks that physical exercise might be easier for them to grasp—he has repeated himself multiple times, yet they still don’t get it. The discussion doesn’t really take on a dialogue format, and Plato’s literary strength seems to have faded. The old men talk as one would expect them to, which brings a hint of dramatic realism. Plato has presented the Laws with a form or lack of form that shows a decline in natural ability. There’s no clear structure—no awareness of what has come before or what will come next, which is essential for a polished style—but there are several attempts at organization; the argument is often interrupted, and frequent explanations are given about why a specific topic was brought up.
The fictions of the Laws have no longer the verisimilitude which is characteristic of the Phaedrus and the Timaeus, or even of the Statesman. We can hardly suppose that an educated Athenian would have placed the visit of Epimenides to Athens ten years before the Persian war, or have imagined that a war with Messene prevented the Lacedaemonians from coming to the rescue of Hellas. The narrative of the origin of the Dorian institutions, which are said to have been due to a fear of the growing power of the Assyrians, is a plausible invention, which may be compared with the tale of the island of Atlantis and the poem of Solon, but is not accredited by similar arts of deception. The other statement that the Dorians were Achaean exiles assembled by Dorieus, and the assertion that Troy was included in the Assyrian Empire, have some foundation (compare for the latter point, Diod. Sicul.). Nor is there anywhere in the Laws that lively enargeia, that vivid mise en scene, which is as characteristic of Plato as of some modern novelists.
The stories in the Laws no longer have the realism that defines the Phaedrus, the Timaeus, or even the Statesman. It's hard to believe that an educated Athenian would think that Epimenides visited Athens ten years before the Persian war, or that a war with Messene stopped the Lacedaemonians from coming to help Greece. The account of how the Dorian institutions originated, supposedly due to fear of the rising power of the Assyrians, is a believable fabrication, similar to the story of the island of Atlantis and the poem by Solon, but it lacks the same level of deceitful craft. The idea that the Dorians were Achaean exiles gathered by Dorieus, and the claim that Troy was part of the Assyrian Empire, have some basis (for the latter, see Diod. Sicul.). Moreover, the Laws lack the vivid clarity and engaging scenes that are as typical of Plato as they are of some contemporary novelists.
The old men are afraid of the ridicule which 'will fall on their heads more than enough,' and they do not often indulge in a joke. In one of the few which occur, the book of the Laws, if left incomplete, is compared to a monster wandering about without a head. But we no longer breathe the atmosphere of humour which pervades the Symposium and the Euthydemus, in which we pass within a few sentences from the broadest Aristophanic joke to the subtlest refinement of wit and fancy; instead of this, in the Laws an impression of baldness and feebleness is often left upon our minds. Some of the most amusing descriptions, as, for example, of children roaring for the first three years of life; or of the Athenians walking into the country with fighting-cocks under their arms; or of the slave doctor who knocks about his patients finely; and the gentleman doctor who courteously persuades them; or of the way of keeping order in the theatre, 'by a hint from a stick,' are narrated with a commonplace gravity; but where we find this sort of dry humour we shall not be far wrong in thinking that the writer intended to make us laugh. The seriousness of age takes the place of the jollity of youth. Life should have holidays and festivals; yet we rebuke ourselves when we laugh, and take our pleasures sadly. The irony of the earlier dialogues, of which some traces occur in the tenth book, is replaced by a severity which hardly condescends to regard human things. 'Let us say, if you please, that man is of some account, but I was speaking of him in comparison with God.'
The elderly are more afraid of the mockery that “will fall on their heads more than enough,” so they don’t often joke around. In one of the rare instances of humor, the book of the Laws, if left unfinished, is likened to a headless monster wandering about. However, we no longer experience the humorous vibe that flows through the Symposium and the Euthydemus, where we quickly transition from the broadest Aristophanic humor to the most refined wit and imagination; instead, the Laws often leave us with a sense of dullness and weakness. Some of the funniest descriptions—like kids crying for the first three years of life, or Athenians walking into the countryside with fighting cocks under their arms, or the slave doctor who roughly handles his patients, and the gentleman doctor who politely persuades them, or the way to maintain order in the theater “with a hint from a stick”—are told with a serious tone. When we encounter this kind of dry humor, we can safely assume the writer meant for us to laugh. The seriousness of age replaces the lightheartedness of youth. Life should involve holidays and celebrations, yet we scold ourselves when we laugh and take our joys with a heavy heart. The irony present in earlier dialogues, of which some remnants can be found in the tenth book, is overtaken by a sternness that barely acknowledges human matters. “Let us say, if you please, that man has some significance, but I was comparing him to God.”
The imagery and illustrations are poor in themselves, and are not assisted by the surrounding phraseology. We have seen how in the Republic, and in the earlier dialogues, figures of speech such as 'the wave,' 'the drone,' 'the chase,' 'the bride,' appear and reappear at intervals. Notes are struck which are repeated from time to time, as in a strain of music. There is none of this subtle art in the Laws. The illustrations, such as the two kinds of doctors, 'the three kinds of funerals,' the fear potion, the puppet, the painter leaving a successor to restore his picture, the 'person stopping to consider where three ways meet,' the 'old laws about water of which he will not divert the course,' can hardly be said to do much credit to Plato's invention. The citations from the poets have lost that fanciful character which gave them their charm in the earlier dialogues. We are tired of images taken from the arts of navigation, or archery, or weaving, or painting, or medicine, or music. Yet the comparisons of life to a tragedy, or of the working of mind to the revolution of the self-moved, or of the aged parent to the image of a God dwelling in the house, or the reflection that 'man is made to be the plaything of God, and that this rightly considered is the best of him,' have great beauty.
The imagery and illustrations aren't very strong on their own, and the surrounding language doesn’t help much. We've seen in the Republic and the earlier dialogues that metaphors like 'the wave,' 'the drone,' 'the chase,' and 'the bride' pop up repeatedly at intervals. They strike notes that echo like a melody. However, there’s none of this subtle art in the Laws. The examples given, like the two types of doctors, 'the three kinds of funerals,' the fear potion, the puppet, the painter who leaves a successor to fix his painting, the 'person pondering at a crossroads,' and the 'old laws about water that he won’t redirect,' hardly reflect Plato's creativity. The quotes from the poets have lost the whimsical quality that made them charming in the earlier dialogues. We’re tired of images drawn from navigation, archery, weaving, painting, medicine, or music. Still, the comparisons of life to a tragedy, the workings of the mind to the motion of a self-moving object, the aged parent as a god-like figure in the home, or the thought that 'humans are meant to be God's playthings, which is, when you think about it, the best part of them,' are truly beautiful.
2. The clumsiness of the style is exhibited in frequent mannerisms and repetitions. The perfection of the Platonic dialogue consists in the accuracy with which the question and answer are fitted into one another, and the regularity with which the steps of the argument succeed one another. This finish of style is no longer discernible in the Laws. There is a want of variety in the answers; nothing can be drawn out of the respondents but 'Yes' or 'No,' 'True,' 'To be sure,' etc.; the insipid forms, 'What do you mean?' 'To what are you referring?' are constantly returning. Again and again the speaker is charged, or charges himself, with obscurity; and he repeats again and again that he will explain his views more clearly. The process of thought which should be latent in the mind of the writer appears on the surface. In several passages the Athenian praises himself in the most unblushing manner, very unlike the irony of the earlier dialogues, as when he declares that 'the laws are a divine work given by some inspiration of the Gods,' and that 'youth should commit them to memory instead of the compositions of the poets.' The prosopopoeia which is adopted by Plato in the Protagoras and other dialogues is repeated until we grow weary of it. The legislator is always addressing the speakers or the youth of the state, and the speakers are constantly making addresses to the legislator. A tendency to a paradoxical manner of statement is also observable. 'We must have drinking,' 'we must have a virtuous tyrant'—this is too much for the duller wits of the Lacedaemonian and Cretan, who at first start back in surprise. More than in any other writing of Plato the tone is hortatory; the laws are sermons as well as laws; they are considered to have a religious sanction, and to rest upon a religious sentiment in the mind of the citizens. The words of the Athenian are attributed to the Lacedaemonian and Cretan, who are supposed to have made them their own, after the manner of the earlier dialogues. Resumptions of subjects which have been half disposed of in a previous passage constantly occur: the arrangement has neither the clearness of art nor the freedom of nature. Irrelevant remarks are made here and there, or illustrations used which are not properly fitted in. The dialogue is generally weak and laboured, and is in the later books fairly given up, apparently, because unsuited to the subject of the work. The long speeches or sermons of the Athenian, often extending over several pages, have never the grace and harmony which are exhibited in the earlier dialogues. For Plato is incapable of sustained composition; his genius is dramatic rather than oratorical; he can converse, but he cannot make a speech. Even the Timaeus, which is one of his most finished works, is full of abrupt transitions. There is the same kind of difference between the dialogue and the continuous discourse of Plato as between the narrative and speeches of Thucydides.
2. The awkwardness of the style shows up in frequent quirks and repetitions. The beauty of the Platonic dialogue lies in how well the questions and answers fit together and how smoothly the points in the argument flow from one to the next. This level of polish is no longer seen in the Laws. There's a lack of variety in the answers; the respondents can only offer 'Yes' or 'No,' 'True,' 'Definitely,' etc.; the bland phrases like 'What do you mean?' or 'What are you referring to?' are constantly repeated. Time and again, the speaker is accused or accuses himself of being unclear and says he will explain his ideas more clearly. The thought process that should be hidden in the writer's mind is laid bare. In several places, the Athenian openly praises himself in a way that lacks the irony found in earlier dialogues, claiming that 'the laws are a divine creation inspired by the Gods' and that 'young people should memorize them instead of the works of poets.' The use of personification, which Plato employs in the Protagoras and other dialogues, is repeated to the point of exhaustion. The legislator is always addressing the speakers or the youth of the state, and the speakers are constantly making remarks to the legislator. There’s also a noticeable tendency towards paradoxical statements, like 'We must have drinking,' 'we must have a virtuous tyrant'—this is too much for the less sophisticated minds of the Lacedaemonians and Cretans, who are initially shocked. More than in any other of Plato's works, the tone here is preachy; the laws serve as sermons as well as regulations. They are seen as having a religious authority, tapping into a religious sentiment among the citizens. The words of the Athenian are attributed to the Lacedaemonian and Cretan, who are thought to have adopted them, mirroring the style of earlier dialogues. Topics that were only partially covered earlier keep popping back up; the organization lacks both the clarity of artistry and the fluidity of natural dialogue. Irrelevant comments crop up here and there, or examples are used that don't fit properly. Overall, the dialogue feels weak and strained, especially in the later books, which seem to abandon the dialogic form because it's unsuitable for the subject matter. The lengthy speeches or sermons from the Athenian, which can stretch across several pages, never achieve the grace and cohesion seen in the earlier dialogues. Plato struggles with sustained composition; his talent is more dramatic than oratorical; he can hold a conversation, but he can't deliver a proper speech. Even the Timaeus, one of his most polished works, is filled with abrupt changes. There is a similar difference between the dialogue and the continuous discourse of Plato as there is between the narrative and the speeches of Thucydides.
3. The perfection of style is variety in unity, freedom, ease, clearness, the power of saying anything, and of striking any note in the scale of human feelings without impropriety; and such is the divine gift of language possessed by Plato in the Symposium and Phaedrus. From this there are many fallings-off in the Laws: first, in the structure of the sentences, which are rhythmical and monotonous,—the formal and sophistical manner of the age is superseding the natural genius of Plato: secondly, many of them are of enormous length, and the latter end often forgets the beginning of them,—they seem never to have received the second thoughts of the author; either the emphasis is wrongly placed, or there is a want of point in a clause; or an absolute case occurs which is not properly separated from the rest of the sentence; or words are aggregated in a manner which fails to show their relation to one another; or the connecting particles are omitted at the beginning of sentences; the uses of the relative and antecedent are more indistinct, the changes of person and number more frequent, examples of pleonasm, tautology, and periphrasis, antitheses of positive and negative, false emphasis, and other affectations, are more numerous than in the other writings of Plato; there is also a more common and sometimes unmeaning use of qualifying formulae, os epos eipein, kata dunamin, and of double expressions, pante pantos, oudame oudamos, opos kai ope—these are too numerous to be attributed to errors in the text; again, there is an over-curious adjustment of verb and participle, noun and epithet, and other artificial forms of cadence and expression take the place of natural variety: thirdly, the absence of metaphorical language is remarkable—the style is not devoid of ornament, but the ornament is of a debased rhetorical kind, patched on to instead of growing out of the subject; there is a great command of words, and a laboured use of them; forced attempts at metaphor occur in several passages,—e.g. parocheteuein logois; ta men os tithemena ta d os paratithemena; oinos kolazomenos upo nephontos eterou theou; the plays on the word nomos = nou dianome, ode etara: fourthly, there is a foolish extravagance of language in other passages,—'the swinish ignorance of arithmetic;' 'the justice and suitableness of the discourse on laws;' over-emphasis; 'best of Greeks,' said of all the Greeks, and the like: fifthly, poor and insipid illustrations are also common: sixthly, we may observe an excessive use of climax and hyperbole, aischron legein chre pros autous doulon te kai doulen kai paida kai ei pos oion te olen ten oikian: dokei touto to epitedeuma kata phusin tas peri ta aphrodisia edonas ou monon anthropon alla kai therion diephtharkenai.
3. The ideal style combines variety within unity, freedom, ease, clarity, the ability to express anything, and the capacity to resonate with any human emotion without crossing the line; this is the exceptional skill with language that Plato demonstrates in the Symposium and Phaedrus. However, there are many shortcomings in the Laws: first, the sentence structures are rhythmical and monotonous—the formal and convoluted style of the time is taking over Plato's natural talent. Second, many sentences are excessively long, often losing track of where they began—they seem to lack the author's revisited thoughts; the emphasis may be misplaced, or a clause might lack clarity; there might be an absolute phrase that isn't properly set apart from the rest of the sentence; or the words may be grouped together in a way that fails to clarify their relationships; connecting words might be missing at the start of sentences; the uses of relative and antecedent are less clear, the shifts in person and number are more frequent, instances of redundancy, repetition, and roundabout expressions, contrasts between positive and negative, false emphasis, and other oddities are more prevalent than in Plato’s other works; there is also a more frequent and sometimes trivial use of qualifiers, such as os epos eipein, kata dunamin, and redundant expressions, like pante pantos, oudame oudamos, opos kai ope—these are too numerous to be just errors in the text; additionally, there's an overzealous adjustment of verbs with participles, nouns with adjectives, and other artificial cadences and expressions that replace natural variety. Third, the lack of metaphorical language stands out—the style isn't without ornament, but the embellishments feel forced, added on instead of naturally arising from the subject; there's a strong command of words, yet they are used in a laborious manner; there are strained attempts at metaphor in several instances—e.g., parocheteuein logois; ta men os tithemena ta d os paratithemena; oinos kolazomenos upo nephontos eterou theou; the wordplay involving nomos = nou dianome, ode etara. Fourth, there are instances of absurd extravagance in language—such as "the swinish ignorance of arithmetic;" "the justice and appropriateness of the discussion on laws;" excessive emphasis; referring to "the best of Greeks" when talking about all Greeks, and so on. Fifth, weak and dull illustrations are frequently seen. Sixth, there is an overuse of climax and hyperbole, such as aischron legein chre pros autous doulon te kai doulen kai paida kai ei pos oion te olen ten oikian: dokei touto to epitedeuma kata phusin tas peri ta aphrodisia edonas ou monon anthropon alla kai therion diephtharkenai.
4. The peculiarities in the use of words which occur in the Laws have been collected by Zeller (Platonische Studien) and Stallbaum (Legg.): first, in the use of nouns, such as allodemia, apeniautesis, glukuthumia, diatheter, thrasuxenia, koros, megalonoia, paidourgia: secondly, in the use of adjectives, such as aistor, biodotes, echthodopos, eitheos, chronios, and of adverbs, such as aniditi, anatei, nepoivei: thirdly, in the use of verbs, such as athurein, aissein (aixeien eipein), euthemoneisthai, parapodizesthai, sebein, temelein, tetan. These words however, as Stallbaum remarks, are formed according to analogy, and nearly all of them have the support of some poetical or other authority.
4. The unique ways words are used in the Laws have been gathered by Zeller (Platonische Studien) and Stallbaum (Legg.): first, in the use of nouns like allodemia, apeniautesis, glukuthumia, diatheter, thrasuxenia, koros, megalonoia, and paidourgia; second, in the use of adjectives such as aistor, biodotes, echthodopos, eitheos, and chronios; and in adverbs like aniditi, anatei, and nepoivei; third, in the use of verbs like athurein, aissein (aixeien eipein), euthemoneisthai, parapodizesthai, sebein, temelein, and tetan. These words, however, as Stallbaum notes, are formed by analogy, and nearly all of them are backed by some poetic or other authority.
Zeller and Stallbaum have also collected forms of words in the Laws, differing from the forms of the same words which occur in other places: e.g. blabos for blabe, abios for abiotos, acharistos for acharis, douleios for doulikos, paidelos for paidikos, exagrio for exagriaino, ileoumai for ilaskomai, and the Ionic word sophronistus, meaning 'correction.' Zeller has noted a fondness for substantives ending in -ma and -sis, such as georgema, diapauma, epithumema, zemioma, komodema, omilema; blapsis, loidoresis, paraggelsis, and others; also a use of substantives in the plural, which are commonly found only in the singular, maniai, atheotetes, phthonoi, phoboi, phuseis; also, a peculiar use of prepositions in composition, as in eneirgo, apoblapto, dianomotheteo, dieiretai, dieulabeisthai, and other words; also, a frequent occurrence of the Ionic datives plural in -aisi and -oisi, perhaps used for the sake of giving an ancient or archaic effect.
Zeller and Stallbaum have gathered different word forms in the Laws that vary from the same words found elsewhere: for example, blabos for blabe, abios for abiotos, acharistos for acharis, douleios for doulikos, paidelos for paidikos, exagrio for exagriaino, ileoumai for ilaskomai, and the Ionic word sophronistus, which means 'correction.' Zeller has pointed out a preference for nouns ending in -ma and -sis, such as georgema, diapauma, epithumema, zemioma, komodema, omilema; blapsis, loidoresis, paraggelsis, and others; he also notes the use of plural nouns that are typically found only in the singular, like maniai, atheotetes, phthonoi, phoboi, phuseis; additionally, there’s a unique use of prepositions in formations, as seen in words like eneirgo, apoblapto, dianomotheteo, dieiretai, dieulabeisthai, and others; also, the Ionic plural datives ending in -aisi and -oisi appear frequently, possibly to create an ancient or archaic feel.
To these peculiarities of words he has added a list of peculiar expressions and constructions. Among the most characteristic are the following: athuta pallakon spermata; amorphoi edrai; osa axiomata pros archontas; oi kata polin kairoi; muthos, used in several places of 'the discourse about laws;' and connected with this the frequent use of paramuthion and paramutheisthai in the general sense of 'address,' 'addressing'; aimulos eros; ataphoi praxeis; muthos akephalos; ethos euthuporon. He remarks also on the frequent employment of the abstract for the concrete; e.g. uperesia for uperetai, phugai for phugades, mechanai in the sense of 'contrivers,' douleia for douloi, basileiai for basileis, mainomena kedeumata for ganaika mainomenen; e chreia ton paidon in the sense of 'indigent children,' and paidon ikanotes; to ethos tes apeirias for e eiothuia apeiria; kuparitton upse te kai kalle thaumasia for kuparittoi mala upselai kai kalai. He further notes some curious uses of the genitive case, e.g. philias omologiai, maniai orges, laimargiai edones, cheimonon anupodesiai, anosioi plegon tolmai; and of the dative, omiliai echthrois, nomothesiai, anosioi plegon tolmai; and of the dative omiliai echthrois, nomothesiai epitropois; and also some rather uncommon periphrases, thremmata Neilou, xuggennetor teknon for alochos, Mouses lexis for poiesis, zographon paides, anthropon spermata and the like; the fondness for particles of limitation, especially tis and ge, sun tisi charisi, tois ge dunamenois and the like; the pleonastic use of tanun, of os, of os eros eipein, of ekastote; and the periphrastic use of the preposition peri. Lastly, he observes the tendency to hyperbata or transpositions of words, and to rhythmical uniformity as well as grammatical irregularity in the structure of the sentences.
To these unique word features, he has added a list of distinct expressions and constructions. Among the most notable are the following: athuta pallakon spermata; amorphoi edrai; osa axiomata pros archontas; oi kata polin kairoi; muthos, used in several parts of 'the discourse about laws;' and linked to this, the frequent use of paramuthion and paramutheisthai in the general sense of 'addressing'; aimulos eros; ataphoi praxeis; muthos akephalos; ethos euthuporon. He also points out the common use of the abstract for the concrete; for example, uperesia for uperetai, phugai for phugades, mechanai meaning 'contrivers,' douleia for douloi, basileiai for basileis, mainomena kedeumata for ganaika mainomenen; e chreia ton paidon meaning 'indigent children,' and paidon ikanotes; to ethos tes apeirias for e eiothuia apeiria; kuparitton upse te kai kalle thaumasia for kuparittoi mala upselai kai kalai. He further notes some interesting uses of the genitive case, such as philias omologiai, maniai orges, laimargiai edones, cheimonon anupodesiai, anosioi plegon tolmai; and of the dative, omiliai echthrois, nomothesiai, anosioi plegon tolmai; and of the dative omiliai echthrois, nomothesiai epitropois; along with some rather unusual periphrases like thremmata Neilou, xuggennetor teknon for alochos, Mouses lexis for poiesis, zographon paides, anthropon spermata, and others; the preference for limiting particles, especially tis and ge, sun tisi charisi, tois ge dunamenois and so on; the redundant use of tanun, os, os eros eipein, and ekastote; and the periphrastic use of the preposition peri. Finally, he notes the tendency toward hyperbata or word transpositions, along with rhythmic uniformity as well as grammatical irregularity in the sentence structure.
For nearly all the expressions which are adduced by Zeller as arguments against the genuineness of the Laws, Stallbaum finds some sort of authority. There is no real ground for doubting that the work was written by Plato, merely because several words occur in it which are not found in his other writings. An imitator may preserve the usual phraseology of a writer better than he would himself. But, on the other hand, the fact that authorities may be quoted in support of most of these uses of words, does not show that the diction is not peculiar. Several of them seem to be poetical or dialectical, and exhibit an attempt to enlarge the limits of Greek prose by the introduction of Homeric and tragic expressions. Most of them do not appear to have retained any hold on the later language of Greece. Like several experiments in language of the writers of the Elizabethan age, they were afterwards lost; and though occasionally found in Plutarch and imitators of Plato, they have not been accepted by Aristotle or passed into the common dialect of Greece.
For almost all the phrases that Zeller uses as evidence against the authenticity of the Laws, Stallbaum finds some kind of support. There's no real reason to doubt that Plato wrote this work, just because some words used in it don't appear in his other writings. A copyist might actually do a better job of mimicking a writer's usual style than the writer would. However, the fact that there are authorities cited to back up most of these word usages doesn't mean that the style isn't unique. Some of them seem poetic or dialectical and show an effort to broaden the scope of Greek prose by incorporating expressions from Homer and tragic works. Most of these phrases don't seem to have remained in the later Greek language. Like many language experiments from writers of the Elizabethan era, they were eventually lost; although they occasionally show up in Plutarch and Plato’s imitators, they haven't been adopted by Aristotle or integrated into the common speech of Greece.
5. Unequal as the Laws are in style, they contain a few passages which are very grand and noble. For example, the address to the poets: 'Best of strangers, we also are poets of the best and noblest tragedy; for our whole state is an imitation of the best and noblest life, which we affirm to be indeed the very truth of tragedy.' Or again, the sight of young men and maidens in friendly intercourse with one another, suggesting the dangers to which youth is liable from the violence of passion; or the eloquent denunciation of unnatural lusts in the same passage; or the charming thought that the best legislator 'orders war for the sake of peace and not peace for the sake of war;' or the pleasant allusion, 'O Athenian—inhabitant of Attica, I will not say, for you seem to me worthy to be named after the Goddess Athene because you go back to first principles;' or the pithy saying, 'Many a victory has been and will be suicidal to the victors, but education is never suicidal;' or the fine expression that 'the walls of a city should be allowed to sleep in the earth, and that we should not attempt to disinter them;' or the remark that 'God is the measure of all things in a sense far higher than any man can be;' or that 'a man should be from the first a partaker of the truth, that he may live a true man as long as possible;' or the principle repeatedly laid down, that 'the sins of the fathers are not to be visited on the children;' or the description of the funeral rites of those priestly sages who depart in innocence; or the noble sentiment, that we should do more justice to slaves than to equals; or the curious observation, founded, perhaps, on his own experience, that there are a few 'divine men in every state however corrupt, whose conversation is of inestimable value;' or the acute remark, that public opinion is to be respected, because the judgments of mankind about virtue are better than their practice; or the deep religious and also modern feeling which pervades the tenth book (whatever may be thought of the arguments); the sense of the duty of living as a part of a whole, and in dependence on the will of God, who takes care of the least things as well as the greatest; and the picture of parents praying for their children—not as we may say, slightly altering the words of Plato, as if there were no truth or reality in the Gentile religions, but as if there were the greatest—are very striking to us. We must remember that the Laws, unlike the Republic, do not exhibit an ideal state, but are supposed to be on the level of human motives and feelings; they are also on the level of the popular religion, though elevated and purified: hence there is an attempt made to show that the pleasant is also just. But, on the other hand, the priority of the soul to the body, and of God to the soul, is always insisted upon as the true incentive to virtue; especially with great force and eloquence at the commencement of Book v. And the work of legislation is carried back to the first principles of morals.
5. Although the laws are uneven in style, they include some very grand and noble passages. For instance, the address to the poets: “Best of strangers, we are also poets of the best and noblest tragedy; for our entire state imitates the best and noblest life, which we believe to be the very truth of tragedy.” Or, consider the scene of young men and women enjoying friendly interactions, hinting at the dangers youth faces from passionate impulses; or the powerful denunciation of unnatural desires in the same section; or the lovely thought that the best legislator “organizes war for the sake of peace and not peace for the sake of war;” or the flattering remark, “O Athenian—inhabitant of Attica, I won’t say, because you seem worthy to be named after the Goddess Athena since you adhere to foundational principles;” or the succinct saying, “Many victories have been and will be self-destructive for the victors, but education is never self-destructive;” or the elegant expression that “the walls of a city should be allowed to rest in the earth, and that we should not try to dig them up;” or the remark that “God is the measure of all things in a sense far beyond any human perspective;” or that “a man should from the beginning partake of the truth so he can live a true life for as long as possible;” or the principle that “the sins of the fathers should not be passed on to the children;” or the description of the funeral rites for those priestly sages who leave this world in innocence; or the noble sentiment that we should do more justice to slaves than to our equals; or the interesting observation, perhaps based on his own experience, that there are a few “divine men in every state, no matter how corrupt, whose insights are invaluable;” or the insightful remark that public opinion deserves respect because humanity's judgments about virtue are often better than their actual behavior; or the profound, modern religious sentiment that runs through the tenth book (regardless of how the arguments are viewed); the understanding of our duty to live as part of a greater whole and in dependence on God's will, who cares for the smallest details as well as the grandest; and the image of parents praying for their children—not suggesting, as one might lightly modify Plato’s words, that there’s no truth or reality in pagan religions, but implying that there is great truth—is very powerful to us. We must keep in mind that the Laws, contrary to the Republic, do not portray an ideal state but are intended to connect with human motives and feelings; they also align with popular religion, albeit refined and elevated: thus, there is an effort to demonstrate that what is pleasant is also just. However, the priority of the soul over the body, and of God over the soul, is consistently emphasized as the true motivation for virtue; particularly strongly and eloquently articulated at the start of Book v. Furthermore, the task of legislation goes back to the foundational principles of morality.
6. No other writing of Plato shows so profound an insight into the world and into human nature as the Laws. That 'cities will never cease from ill until they are better governed,' is the text of the Laws as well as of the Statesman and Republic. The principle that the balance of power preserves states; the reflection that no one ever passed his whole life in disbelief of the Gods; the remark that the characters of men are best seen in convivial intercourse; the observation that the people must be allowed to share not only in the government, but in the administration of justice; the desire to make laws, not with a view to courage only, but to all virtue; the clear perception that education begins with birth, or even, as he would say, before birth; the attempt to purify religion; the modern reflections, that punishment is not vindictive, and that limits must be set to the power of bequest; the impossibility of undeceiving the victims of quacks and jugglers; the provision for water, and for other requirements of health, and for concealing the bodies of the dead with as little hurt as possible to the living; above all, perhaps, the distinct consciousness that under the actual circumstances of mankind the ideal cannot be carried out, and yet may be a guiding principle—will appear to us, if we remember that we are still in the dawn of politics, to show a great depth of political wisdom.
6. No other writing by Plato demonstrates such deep understanding of the world and human nature as the Laws. The idea that 'cities will never stop facing problems until they are better governed' serves as the core message of the Laws, as well as the Statesman and Republic. The concept that balance of power sustains states; the insight that no one lives their whole life without believing in the Gods; the observation that people's true characters are revealed during social gatherings; the idea that the public should have a role not just in governance but also in administering justice; the aim to create laws that promote not just courage but all virtues; the clear understanding that education starts at birth, or even, as he puts it, before birth; the effort to refine religion; the contemporary insights that punishment shouldn't be vengeful and that there should be limits on inheritance rights; the challenge of enlightening those who have been misled by charlatans; the responsibility for providing water and other essentials for health, and for burying the dead with minimal disruption to the living; above all, perhaps, the clear awareness that, given the current state of humanity, the ideal cannot be fully realized, yet remains a guiding principle—if we consider that we are still in the early stages of political thought, will reveal a significant depth of political wisdom.
IV. The Laws of Plato contain numerous passages which closely resemble other passages in his writings. And at first sight a suspicion arises that the repetition shows the unequal hand of the imitator. For why should a writer say over again, in a more imperfect form, what he had already said in his most finished style and manner? And yet it may be urged on the other side that an author whose original powers are beginning to decay will be very liable to repeat himself, as in conversation, so in books. He may have forgotten what he had written before; he may be unconscious of the decline of his own powers. Hence arises a question of great interest, bearing on the genuineness of ancient writers. Is there any criterion by which we can distinguish the genuine resemblance from the spurious, or, in other words, the repetition of a thought or passage by an author himself from the appropriation of it by another? The question has, perhaps, never been fully discussed; and, though a real one, does not admit of a precise answer. A few general considerations on the subject may be offered:—
IV. The Laws of Plato contain many sections that closely resemble other parts of his writings. At first glance, one might suspect that this repetition reveals the clumsy touch of a copyist. Why would a writer restate something in a less polished manner if he had already expressed it with greater skill? However, it could be argued that an author whose original talents are fading is likely to repeat himself, just like in conversation and in writing. He might have forgotten what he wrote previously or be unaware of the decline in his own abilities. This brings up an intriguing question regarding the authenticity of ancient writers. Is there a way to distinguish genuine similarities from misleading ones, or in other words, how can we tell when an author is repeating their own idea or when someone else has taken it? This question may never have been thoroughly examined, and while it is a valid one, it doesn’t have a clear-cut answer. A few general thoughts on the topic may be presented:—
(a) Is the difference such as might be expected to arise at different times of life or under different circumstances?—There would be nothing surprising in a writer, as he grew older, losing something of his own originality, and falling more and more under the spirit of his age. 'What a genius I had when I wrote that book!' was the pathetic exclamation of a famous English author, when in old age he chanced to take up one of his early works. There would be nothing surprising again in his losing somewhat of his powers of expression, and becoming less capable of framing language into a harmonious whole. There would also be a strong presumption that if the variation of style was uniform, it was attributable to some natural cause, and not to the arts of the imitator. The inferiority might be the result of feebleness and of want of activity of mind. But the natural weakness of a great author would commonly be different from the artificial weakness of an imitator; it would be continuous and uniform. The latter would be apt to fill his work with irregular patches, sometimes taken verbally from the writings of the author whom he personated, but rarely acquiring his spirit. His imitation would be obvious, irregular, superficial. The patches of purple would be easily detected among his threadbare and tattered garments. He would rarely take the pains to put the same thought into other words. There were many forgeries in English literature which attained a considerable degree of success 50 or 100 years ago; but it is doubtful whether attempts such as these could now escape detection, if there were any writings of the same author or of the same age to be compared with them. And ancient forgers were much less skilful than modern; they were far from being masters in the art of deception, and had rarely any motive for being so.
(a) Is the difference something that might be expected at different stages of life or in various situations?—It wouldn't be surprising for a writer, as he gets older, to lose some of his originality and become more influenced by the trends of his time. "What a genius I was when I wrote that book!" was the sad remark of a famous English author when he picked up one of his early works in old age. It wouldn't be surprising if he also lost some of his expressive power, becoming less capable of crafting language into a cohesive whole. If the change in style was consistent, it would likely be due to some natural cause rather than the tricks of an imitator. The decline might come from weakness or a lack of mental energy. However, the natural decline of a great author would generally differ from the artificial decline of an imitator; it would be steady and uniform. The imitator would likely fill his work with inconsistent patches, sometimes directly lifted from the writings of the author he was mimicking, but he would rarely capture their essence. His imitation would be obvious, inconsistent, and shallow. The awkward patches would stand out among his worn-out and ragged pieces. He would seldom bother to rephrase ideas in different words. There were many forgeries in English literature that were quite successful 50 or 100 years ago; but it's questionable whether attempts like those could avoid detection today if there were any writings from the same author or era to compare against. Plus, ancient forgers were much less skilled than modern ones; they were far from mastering the art of deception and usually lacked any strong reasons to be.
(b) But, secondly, the imitator will commonly be least capable of understanding or imitating that part of a great writer which is most characteristic of him. In every man's writings there is something like himself and unlike others, which gives individuality. To appreciate this latent quality would require a kindred mind, and minute study and observation. There are a class of similarities which may be called undesigned coincidences, which are so remote as to be incapable of being borrowed from one another, and yet, when they are compared, find a natural explanation in their being the work of the same mind. The imitator might copy the turns of style—he might repeat images or illustrations, but he could not enter into the inner circle of Platonic philosophy. He would understand that part of it which became popular in the next generation, as for example, the doctrine of ideas or of numbers: he might approve of communism. But the higher flights of Plato about the science of dialectic, or the unity of virtue, or a person who is above the law, would be unintelligible to him.
(b) However, the imitator is usually the least capable of understanding or replicating the aspects of a great writer that are most unique to them. In every person's writing, there’s something that reflects their individuality and sets them apart from others. Recognizing this hidden quality requires a similar mindset, along with careful study and observation. There are certain similarities that can be described as unintentional coincidences; they are so distant that they can't be borrowed from one another, yet when compared, they naturally make sense as the work of the same mind. The imitator might mimic stylistic choices or repeat certain images or examples, but they couldn't grasp the deeper essence of Platonic philosophy. They might understand the parts that became mainstream in the next generation, like the theory of ideas or numbers, and might even agree with communism. However, the more advanced concepts of Plato, such as the science of dialectic, the unity of virtue, or the idea of a person who transcends the law, would be beyond their comprehension.
(c) The argument from imitation assumes a different character when the supposed imitations are associated with other passages having the impress of original genius. The strength of the argument from undesigned coincidences of style is much increased when they are found side by side with thoughts and expressions which can only have come from a great original writer. The great excellence, not only of the whole, but even of the parts of writings, is a strong proof of their genuineness—for although the great writer may fall below, the forger or imitator cannot rise much above himself. Whether we can attribute the worst parts of a work to a forger and the best to a great writer,—as for example, in the case of some of Shakespeare's plays,—depends upon the probability that they have been interpolated, or have been the joint work of two writers; and this can only be established either by express evidence or by a comparison of other writings of the same class. If the interpolation or double authorship of Greek writings in the time of Plato could be shown to be common, then a question, perhaps insoluble, would arise, not whether the whole, but whether parts of the Platonic dialogues are genuine, and, if parts only, which parts. Hebrew prophecies and Homeric poems and Laws of Manu may have grown together in early times, but there is no reason to think that any of the dialogues of Plato is the result of a similar process of accumulation. It is therefore rash to say with Oncken (Die Staatslehre des Aristoteles) that the form in which Aristotle knew the Laws of Plato must have been different from that in which they have come down to us.
(c) The argument from imitation takes on a different meaning when the alleged imitations are linked to other passages that clearly show original genius. The strength of the argument from unplanned similarities in style increases significantly when they appear alongside ideas and expressions that could only come from a truly great writer. The high quality, not just of the whole work, but even of its individual parts, is a strong indicator of their authenticity—because while a great writer may sometimes fall short, a forger or imitator typically can’t rise much above their own level. Whether we can assign the weaker parts of a work to a forger and the stronger parts to a great writer—like in some of Shakespeare’s plays—depends on the likelihood that they have been modified or are the combined effort of two writers; this can only be proven through direct evidence or by comparing other works of the same type. If we could demonstrate that the interpolation or dual authorship of Greek writings during Plato's time was common, then a possibly unsolvable question would arise, not regarding the authenticity of the entire work, but about the authenticity of specific parts of the Platonic dialogues, and if only parts are genuine, which ones are they. While Hebrew prophecies, Homeric poems, and the Laws of Manu may have developed together in ancient times, there is no reason to believe that any of Plato's dialogues resulted from a similar process of accumulation. Therefore, it’s risky to assert, as Oncken (Die Staatslehre des Aristoteles) does, that the version of the Laws of Plato known to Aristotle must have been different from the one that has been passed down to us.
It must be admitted that these principles are difficult of application. Yet a criticism may be worth making which rests only on probabilities or impressions. Great disputes will arise about the merits of different passages, about what is truly characteristic and original or trivial and borrowed. Many have thought the Laws to be one of the greatest of Platonic writings, while in the judgment of Mr. Grote they hardly rise above the level of the forged epistles. The manner in which a writer would or would not have written at a particular time of life must be acknowledged to be a matter of conjecture. But enough has been said to show that similarities of a certain kind, whether criticism is able to detect them or not, may be such as must be attributed to an original writer, and not to a mere imitator.
It's important to recognize that these principles are hard to apply. However, there's a valid criticism to be made that relies only on probabilities or impressions. There will be significant debates about the value of different sections, about what is genuinely characteristic and original versus what is trivial and copied. Many people consider the Laws to be one of Plato's greatest works, while Mr. Grote believes it barely rises above the level of forged letters. The way an author might or might not have written at a certain stage in their life is understandably a matter of speculation. Nevertheless, enough has been discussed to indicate that certain similarities, whether or not criticism can identify them, should be attributed to an original writer and not simply to a copycat.
(d) Applying these principles to the case of the Laws, we have now to point out that they contain the class of refined or unconscious similarities which are indicative of genuineness. The parallelisms are like the repetitions of favourite thoughts into which every one is apt to fall unawares in conversation or in writing. They are found in a work which contains many beautiful and remarkable passages. We may therefore begin by claiming this presumption in their favour. Such undesigned coincidences, as we may venture to call them, are the following. The conception of justice as the union of temperance, wisdom, courage (Laws; Republic): the latent idea of dialectic implied in the notion of dividing laws after the kinds of virtue (Laws); the approval of the method of looking at one idea gathered from many things, 'than which a truer was never discovered by any man' (compare Republic): or again the description of the Laws as parents (Laws; Republic): the assumption that religion has been already settled by the oracle of Delphi (Laws; Republic), to which an appeal is also made in special cases (Laws): the notion of the battle with self, a paradox for which Plato in a manner apologizes both in the Laws and the Republic: the remark (Laws) that just men, even when they are deformed in body, may still be perfectly beautiful in respect of the excellent justice of their minds (compare Republic): the argument that ideals are none the worse because they cannot be carried out (Laws; Republic): the near approach to the idea of good in 'the principle which is common to all the four virtues,' a truth which the guardians must be compelled to recognize (Laws; compare Republic): or again the recognition by reason of the right pleasure and pain, which had previously been matter of habit (Laws; Republic): or the blasphemy of saying that the excellency of music is to give pleasure (Laws; Republic): again the story of the Sidonian Cadmus (Laws), which is a variation of the Phoenician tale of the earth-born men (Republic): the comparison of philosophy to a yelping she-dog, both in the Republic and in the Laws: the remark that no man can practise two trades (Laws; Republic): or the advantage of the middle condition (Laws; Republic): the tendency to speak of principles as moulds or forms; compare the ekmageia of song (Laws), and the tupoi of religion (Republic): or the remark (Laws) that 'the relaxation of justice makes many cities out of one,' which may be compared with the Republic: or the description of lawlessness 'creeping in little by little in the fashions of music and overturning all things,'—to us a paradox, but to Plato's mind a fixed idea, which is found in the Laws as well as in the Republic: or the figure of the parts of the human body under which the parts of the state are described (Laws; Republic): the apology for delay and diffuseness, which occurs not unfrequently in the Republic, is carried to an excess in the Laws (compare Theaet.): the remarkable thought (Laws) that the soul of the sun is better than the sun, agrees with the relation in which the idea of good stands to the sun in the Republic, and with the substitution of mind for the idea of good in the Philebus: the passage about the tragic poets (Laws) agrees generally with the treatment of them in the Republic, but is more finely conceived, and worked out in a nobler spirit. Some lesser similarities of thought and manner should not be omitted, such as the mention of the thirty years' old students in the Republic, and the fifty years' old choristers in the Laws; or the making of the citizens out of wax (Laws) compared with the other image (Republic); or the number of the tyrant (729), which is NEARLY equal with the number of days and nights in the year (730), compared with the 'slight correction' of the sacred number 5040, which is divisible by all the numbers from 1 to 12 except 11, and divisible by 11, if two families be deducted; or once more, we may compare the ignorance of solid geometry of which he complains in the Republic and the puzzle about fractions with the difficulty in the Laws about commensurable and incommensurable quantities—and the malicious emphasis on the word gunaikeios (Laws) with the use of the same word (Republic). These and similar passages tend to show that the author of the Republic is also the author of the Laws. They are echoes of the same voice, expressions of the same mind, coincidences too subtle to have been invented by the ingenuity of any imitator. The force of the argument is increased, if we remember that no passage in the Laws is exactly copied,—nowhere do five or six words occur together which are found together elsewhere in Plato's writings.
(d) Applying these principles to the case of the Laws, we now need to point out that they contain a type of subtle or unconscious similarities that indicate authenticity. The parallels are like the recurring favorite thoughts that anyone can unintentionally fall into during conversation or writing. They appear in a work that features many beautiful and remarkable passages. Therefore, we can start by asserting this presumption in their favor. These unintentional coincidences, as we might call them, include the following: the idea of justice as a combination of temperance, wisdom, and courage (Laws; Republic); the underlying concept of dialectic suggested by the classification of laws according to different virtues (Laws); the endorsement of the method of considering one idea gleaned from many things, "than which a truer was never discovered by any man" (compare Republic); or the description of the Laws as parents (Laws; Republic); the assumption that religion has been established by the oracle of Delphi (Laws; Republic), which is also referenced in specific cases (Laws); the notion of battling with oneself, a paradox that Plato sort of apologizes for in both the Laws and the Republic; the observation (Laws) that just individuals, even when physically deformed, can still be perfectly beautiful due to the excellent justice of their minds (compare Republic); the argument that ideals aren't any less valuable just because they can't be realized (Laws; Republic); the close approach to the idea of good in "the principle that is common to all four virtues," a truth that the guardians must be made to recognize (Laws; compare Republic); or the acknowledgment by reason of the right pleasure and pain, which was previously a matter of habit (Laws; Republic); or the absurdity of stating that the excellence of music is to bring pleasure (Laws; Republic); then there's the story of the Sidonian Cadmus (Laws), which is a variation of the Phoenician tale of earth-born men (Republic); the comparison of philosophy to a barking she-dog, in both the Republic and the Laws; the observation that no one can pursue two trades (Laws; Republic); or the benefit of the middle condition (Laws; Republic); the tendency to refer to principles as molds or forms; compare the ekmageia of song (Laws), and the tupoi of religion (Republic); or the remark (Laws) that "the relaxation of justice produces many cities from one," which can be compared with the Republic; or the description of lawlessness "sneaking in little by little through the styles of music and overturning everything,"—to us a paradox, but to Plato a fixed idea, found in both the Laws and the Republic; or the analogy of the parts of the human body representing the sections of the state (Laws; Republic); the excuse for delay and verbosity, which appears frequently in the Republic, is taken to an extreme in the Laws (compare Theaet.); the intriguing idea (Laws) that the soul of the sun surpasses the sun aligns with how the idea of good relates to the sun in the Republic and with the replacement of mind for the idea of good in the Philebus; the section about tragic poets (Laws) generally aligns with how they are portrayed in the Republic, but is conceived more finely and developed in a nobler spirit. Some smaller similarities in thought and style shouldn't be overlooked, such as the reference to the thirty-year-old students in the Republic and the fifty-year-old choristers in the Laws; or the creation of citizens out of wax (Laws) in comparison to the other imagery (Republic); or the number of the tyrant (729), which is almost equal to the number of days and nights in the year (730), compared with the "slight correction" of the sacred number 5040, which can be divided by all the numbers from 1 to 12 except 11, and divisible by 11 if two families are excluded; or again, we might compare the complaint about the ignorance of solid geometry found in the Republic and the puzzle concerning fractions with the challenge in the Laws about commensurable and incommensurable quantities—and the pointed emphasis on the word gunaikeios (Laws) with its use in the same context (Republic). These and similar instances suggest that the author of the Republic is also the author of the Laws. They are echoes of the same voice, expressions of the same mind, coincidences too subtle to have been fabricated by any imitator's cleverness. The strength of the argument increases when we remember that no part of the Laws is precisely copied—nowhere do five or six words appear together that are found elsewhere in Plato's writings.
In other dialogues of Plato, as well as in the Republic, there are to be found parallels with the Laws. Such resemblances, as we might expect, occur chiefly (but not exclusively) in the dialogues which, on other grounds, we may suppose to be of later date. The punishment of evil is to be like evil men (Laws), as he says also in the Theaetetus. Compare again the dependence of tragedy and comedy on one another, of which he gives the reason in the Laws—'For serious things cannot be understood without laughable, nor opposites at all without opposites, if a man is really to have intelligence of either'; here he puts forward the principle which is the groundwork of the thesis of Socrates in the Symposium, 'that the genius of tragedy is the same as that of comedy, and that the writer of comedy ought to be a writer of tragedy also.' There is a truth and right which is above Law (Laws), as we learn also from the Statesman. That men are the possession of the Gods (Laws), is a reflection which likewise occurs in the Phaedo. The remark, whether serious or ironical (Laws), that 'the sons of the Gods naturally believed in the Gods, because they had the means of knowing about them,' is found in the Timaeus. The reign of Cronos, who is the divine ruler (Laws), is a reminiscence of the Statesman. It is remarkable that in the Sophist and Statesman (Soph.), Plato, speaking in the character of the Eleatic Stranger, has already put on the old man. The madness of the poets, again, is a favourite notion of Plato's, which occurs also in the Laws, as well as in the Phaedrus, Ion, and elsewhere. There are traces in the Laws of the same desire to base speculation upon history which we find in the Critias. Once more, there is a striking parallel with the paradox of the Gorgias, that 'if you do evil, it is better to be punished than to be unpunished,' in the Laws: 'To live having all goods without justice and virtue is the greatest of evils if life be immortal, but not so great if the bad man lives but a short time.'
In other dialogues of Plato, including the Republic, there are parallels with the Laws. As we might expect, these similarities mostly (but not exclusively) show up in the dialogues that we can assume were written later. The punishment of the wicked is said to mirror the nature of wicked people (Laws), as he also mentions in the Theaetetus. Again, consider how tragedy and comedy depend on one another, which he explains in the Laws: 'Serious matters can't be fully understood without humor, nor can opposites be grasped without their opposites if one is truly to understand either.' Here, he presents the principle that forms the basis of Socrates' argument in the Symposium, 'that the essence of tragedy is the same as that of comedy, and that a comedy writer should also be a tragedy writer.' There exists a truth and justice that transcends the Law (Laws), as we also learn from the Statesman. The idea that men are possessions of the Gods (Laws) is a thought that appears in the Phaedo as well. The statement, whether serious or sarcastic (Laws), that 'the children of the Gods naturally believed in the Gods because they had the means to know them,' is found in the Timaeus. The rule of Cronos, the divine ruler (Laws), is a memory from the Statesman. It's noteworthy that in the Sophist and Statesman (Soph.), Plato, through the character of the Eleatic Stranger, has already taken on the role of the old man. The idea of the madness of poets is a recurring theme in Plato's work, appearing in the Laws, as well as in the Phaedrus, Ion, and other texts. The Laws also show a desire to ground speculation in history, similar to what we see in the Critias. Lastly, there is a striking similarity to the paradox in the Gorgias that 'if you commit evil, it's better to be punished than to go unpunished,' reflected in the Laws: 'Living with all goods without justice and virtue is the greatest evil if life is eternal, but it's not as significant if the wicked live only a short time.'
The point to be considered is whether these are the kind of parallels which would be the work of an imitator. Would a forger have had the wit to select the most peculiar and characteristic thoughts of Plato; would he have caught the spirit of his philosophy; would he, instead of openly borrowing, have half concealed his favourite ideas; would he have formed them into a whole such as the Laws; would he have given another the credit which he might have obtained for himself; would he have remembered and made use of other passages of the Platonic writings and have never deviated into the phraseology of them? Without pressing such arguments as absolutely certain, we must acknowledge that such a comparison affords a new ground of real weight for believing the Laws to be a genuine writing of Plato.
The key question to consider is whether these are the kinds of parallels that would come from an imitator. Would a forger have had the insight to pick the most unique and characteristic ideas of Plato? Would he have captured the essence of his philosophy? Instead of openly borrowing, would he have subtly hidden his favorite ideas? Would he have assembled them into a cohesive work like the Laws? Would he have credited someone else for ideas he could claim as his own? Would he have recalled and used other parts of Plato's writings without straying into their phrasing? While we shouldn't treat these arguments as absolutely certain, we must recognize that this comparison provides a compelling reason to believe that the Laws is an authentic work of Plato.
V. The relation of the Republic to the Laws is clearly set forth by Plato in the Laws. The Republic is the best state, the Laws is the best possible under the existing conditions of the Greek world. The Republic is the ideal, in which no man calls anything his own, which may or may not have existed in some remote clime, under the rule of some God, or son of a God (who can say?), but is, at any rate, the pattern of all other states and the exemplar of human life. The Laws distinctly acknowledge what the Republic partly admits, that the ideal is inimitable by us, but that we should 'lift up our eyes to the heavens' and try to regulate our lives according to the divine image. The citizens are no longer to have wives and children in common, and are no longer to be under the government of philosophers. But the spirit of communism or communion is to continue among them, though reverence for the sacredness of the family, and respect of children for parents, not promiscuous hymeneals, are now the foundation of the state; the sexes are to be as nearly on an equality as possible; they are to meet at common tables, and to share warlike pursuits (if the women will consent), and to have a common education. The legislator has taken the place of the philosopher, but a council of elders is retained, who are to fulfil the duties of the legislator when he has passed out of life. The addition of younger persons to this council by co-optation is an improvement on the governing body of the Republic. The scheme of education in the Laws is of a far lower kind than that which Plato had conceived in the Republic. There he would have his rulers trained in all knowledge meeting in the idea of good, of which the different branches of mathematical science are but the hand-maidens or ministers; here he treats chiefly of popular education, stopping short with the preliminary sciences,—these are to be studied partly with a view to their practical usefulness, which in the Republic he holds cheap, and even more with a view to avoiding impiety, of which in the Republic he says nothing; he touches very lightly on dialectic, which is still to be retained for the rulers. Yet in the Laws there remain traces of the old educational ideas. He is still for banishing the poets; and as he finds the works of prose writers equally dangerous, he would substitute for them the study of his own laws. He insists strongly on the importance of mathematics as an educational instrument. He is no more reconciled to the Greek mythology than in the Republic, though he would rather say nothing about it out of a reverence for antiquity; and he is equally willing to have recourse to fictions, if they have a moral tendency. His thoughts recur to a golden age in which the sanctity of oaths was respected and in which men living nearer the Gods were more disposed to believe in them; but we must legislate for the world as it is, now that the old beliefs have passed away. Though he is no longer fired with dialectical enthusiasm, he would compel the guardians to 'look at one idea gathered from many things,' and to 'perceive the principle which is the same in all the four virtues.' He still recognizes the enormous influence of music, in which every youth is to be trained for three years; and he seems to attribute the existing degeneracy of the Athenian state and the laxity of morals partly to musical innovation, manifested in the unnatural divorce of the instrument and the voice, of the rhythm from the words, and partly to the influence of the mob who ruled at the theatres. He assimilates the education of the two sexes, as far as possible, both in music and gymnastic, and, as in the Republic, he would give to gymnastic a purely military character. In marriage, his object is still to produce the finest children for the state. As in the Statesman, he would unite in wedlock dissimilar natures—the passionate with the dull, the courageous with the gentle. And the virtuous tyrant of the Statesman, who has no place in the Republic, again appears. In this, as in all his writings, he has the strongest sense of the degeneracy and incapacity of the rulers of his own time.
V. The relationship between the Republic and the Laws is clearly explained by Plato in the Laws. The Republic represents the ideal state, while the Laws represent the best we can do given the current conditions of the Greek world. The Republic is a vision where no one claims ownership of anything; it may or may not have existed somewhere far away under divine rule, but it serves as a model for all other states and an example of human life. The Laws explicitly acknowledge what the Republic only partially accepts: that we can't fully imitate the ideal, but we should "look up to the heavens" and try to align our lives with the divine image. Citizens will no longer share spouses and children or be governed by philosophers. However, the spirit of community will persist, though now there will be respect for the sanctity of the family and children's respect for their parents instead of indiscriminate unions, forming the new foundation of the state. The sexes will be as equal as possible; they will dine together, engage in warfare (if the women agree), and have a shared education. The legislator replaces the philosopher, but a council of elders will remain to carry out legislative duties after the legislator's death. Including younger members in this council through co-optation improves the governing body compared to that in the Republic. The education system in the Laws is much simpler than what Plato proposed in the Republic. There, he envisioned his rulers trained in all areas of knowledge centered on the idea of the good, with branches of mathematics as mere assistants; here, he focuses mainly on practical education and basic sciences, aimed at avoiding impiety—something he doesn’t address in the Republic—and only lightly touches on dialectic, which is still meant for the rulers. Nonetheless, traces of old educational ideas linger in the Laws. He remains opposed to poets, and since he finds prose writers equally dangerous, he would replace them with the study of his own laws. He emphasizes the importance of mathematics as a part of education. He is still critical of Greek mythology, preferring not to discuss it out of respect for tradition, and he is open to using fictions if they convey moral lessons. He reflects on a golden age where oaths held great value and where people, closer to the Gods, had more faith; however, we must legislate for the current reality, now that ancient beliefs have faded. While he no longer is as passionate about dialectics, he urges the guardians to "gather one idea from many things" and "see the principle that is common to all four virtues." He acknowledges music's huge impact, insisting that every young person should be trained in it for three years, suggesting that the decline of Athenian society and moral standards is partly due to musical changes, such as the unnatural separation of instrument and voice, rhythm from lyrics, and the influence of the crowds controlling the theaters. He seeks to integrate the education of both sexes in music and physical training, keeping physical education focused on military purposes, as in the Republic. His goal in marriage remains to produce the best offspring for the state. Similar to the Statesman, he advocates for unions between differing natures—the passionate with the dull, the brave with the gentle. And the virtuous tyrant from the Statesman, absent in the Republic, makes a reappearance here. Throughout his writings, he expresses a deep awareness of the decline and ineptitude of the rulers in his time.
In the Laws, the philosophers, if not banished, like the poets, are at least ignored; and religion takes the place of philosophy in the regulation of human life. It must however be remembered that the religion of Plato is co-extensive with morality, and is that purified religion and mythology of which he speaks in the second book of the Republic. There is no real discrepancy in the two works. In a practical treatise, he speaks of religion rather than of philosophy; just as he appears to identify virtue with pleasure, and rather seeks to find the common element of the virtues than to maintain his old paradoxical theses that they are one, or that they are identical with knowledge. The dialectic and the idea of good, which even Glaucon in the Republic could not understand, would be out of place in a less ideal work. There may also be a change in his own mind, the purely intellectual aspect of philosophy having a diminishing interest to him in his old age.
In the Laws, philosophers, if not outright excluded like poets, are at least overlooked, and religion takes over the role of philosophy in guiding human life. It's important to remember that Plato’s view of religion aligns closely with morality and represents the refined religion and mythology he discusses in the second book of the Republic. There’s no real conflict between the two works. In a practical treatise, he focuses on religion rather than philosophy; similarly, he tends to equate virtue with pleasure and looks for the shared element among the virtues instead of upholding his earlier controversial ideas that they are the same or identical to knowledge. The dialectic and the concept of the good, which even Glaucon in the Republic found difficult to grasp, would be unsuitable in a more straightforward work. There might also be a shift in his own perspective, as the purely intellectual side of philosophy seems to matter less to him as he ages.
Some confusion occurs in the passage in which Plato speaks of the Republic, occasioned by his reference to a third state, which he proposes (D.V.) hereafter to expound. Like many other thoughts in the Laws, the allusion is obscure from not being worked out. Aristotle (Polit.) speaks of a state which is neither the best absolutely, nor the best under existing conditions, but an imaginary state, inferior to either, destitute, as he supposes, of the necessaries of life—apparently such a beginning of primitive society as is described in Laws iii. But it is not clear that by this the third state of Plato is intended. It is possible that Plato may have meant by his third state an historical sketch, bearing the same relation to the Laws which the unfinished Critias would have borne to the Republic; or he may, perhaps, have intended to describe a state more nearly approximating than the Laws to existing Greek states.
Some confusion arises in the part where Plato talks about the Republic, due to his mention of a third state that he plans to explain later (D.V.). Like many other ideas in the Laws, this reference is unclear because it isn't fully developed. Aristotle (Polit.) mentions a state that isn't the best in an absolute sense or the best under current circumstances, but rather a theoretical state, inferior to both, lacking the essentials for life—possibly similar to the early society described in Laws iii. However, it's not obvious that this refers to Plato's third state. It's possible that Plato intended his third state to be a historical overview, related to the Laws in the same way that the unfinished Critias would relate to the Republic; or he might have aimed to describe a state that is closer to existing Greek states than the Laws are.
The Statesman is a mere fragment when compared with the Laws, yet combining a second interest of dialectic as well as politics, which is wanting in the larger work. Several points of similarity and contrast may be observed between them. In some respects the Statesman is even more ideal than the Republic, looking back to a former state of paradisiacal life, in which the Gods ruled over mankind, as the Republic looks forward to a coming kingdom of philosophers. Of this kingdom of Cronos there is also mention in the Laws. Again, in the Statesman, the Eleatic Stranger rises above law to the conception of the living voice of the lawgiver, who is able to provide for individual cases. A similar thought is repeated in the Laws: 'If in the order of nature, and by divine destiny, a man were able to apprehend the truth about these things, he would have no need of laws to rule over him; for there is no law or order above knowledge, nor can mind without impiety be deemed the subject or slave of any, but rather the lord of all.' The union of opposite natures, who form the warp and the woof of the political web, is a favourite thought which occurs in both dialogues (Laws; Statesman).
The Statesman is just a small part compared to the Laws, yet it combines elements of dialectic and politics that are missing from the larger work. You can spot several similarities and differences between them. In some ways, the Statesman is even more idealistic than the Republic, looking back at a previous state of paradise where the Gods ruled over humanity, while the Republic anticipates a future kingdom of philosophers. This kingdom of Cronos is also mentioned in the Laws. Furthermore, in the Statesman, the Eleatic Stranger transcends law to focus on the living voice of the lawgiver, who can address individual situations. A similar idea appears in the Laws: 'If a man were able to truly understand these matters by nature and divine destiny, he wouldn’t need laws to govern him; for there is no law or order greater than knowledge, nor can an enlightened mind be seen as subject or enslaved to anything, but rather as the master of all.' The idea of the merging of opposing natures, which together create the fabric of political life, is a common theme in both dialogues (Laws; Statesman).
The Laws are confessedly a Second-best, an inferior Ideal, to which Plato has recourse, when he finds that the city of Philosophers is no longer 'within the horizon of practical politics.' But it is curious to observe that the higher Ideal is always returning (compare Arist. Polit.), and that he is not much nearer the actual fact, nor more on the level of ordinary life in the Laws than in the Republic. It is also interesting to remark that the new Ideal is always falling away, and that he hardly supposes the one to be more capable of being realized than the other. Human beings are troublesome to manage; and the legislator cannot adapt his enactments to the infinite variety of circumstances; after all he must leave the administration of them to his successors; and though he would have liked to make them as permanent as they are in Egypt, he cannot escape from the necessity of change. At length Plato is obliged to institute a Nocturnal Council which is supposed to retain the mind of the legislator, and of which some of the members are even supposed to go abroad and inspect the institutions of foreign countries, as a foundation for changes in their own. The spirit of such changes, though avoiding the extravagance of a popular assembly, being only so much change as the conservative temper of old members is likely to allow, is nevertheless inconsistent with the fixedness of Egypt which Plato wishes to impress upon Hellenic institutions. He is inconsistent with himself as the truth begins to dawn upon him that 'in the execution things for the most part fall short of our conception of them' (Republic).
The Laws are clearly a second-best option, an inferior ideal that Plato turns to when he realizes that the city of Philosophers is no longer realistic in practical politics. It's interesting to note that the higher ideal keeps coming back (see Arist. Polit.), and that he remains just as far from actual reality, and no closer to everyday life in the Laws than in the Republic. It’s also worth mentioning that this new ideal constantly slips away, and he hardly believes one is more achievable than the other. Human beings are hard to manage; the legislator cannot tailor his laws to the countless situations that arise, and ultimately must leave the implementation to his successors. Although he wishes to establish permanence like that found in Egypt, he can't avoid the need for change. Eventually, Plato feels compelled to create a Nocturnal Council, meant to maintain the legislator's mindset, with some members even expected to travel abroad to examine other countries' institutions as a basis for reforms at home. While this spirit of change avoids the chaos of a popular assembly and is limited to what the conservative nature of older members allows, it still contradicts the permanence of Egypt that Plato wants to apply to Greek institutions. He becomes inconsistent with himself as he comes to realize that "in execution, things often fall short of our conception of them" (Republic).
And is not this true of ideals of government in general? We are always disappointed in them. Nothing great can be accomplished in the short space of human life; wherefore also we look forward to another (Republic). As we grow old, we are sensible that we have no power actively to pursue our ideals any longer. We have had our opportunity and do not aspire to be more than men: we have received our 'wages and are going home.' Neither do we despair of the future of mankind, because we have been able to do so little in comparison of the whole. We look in vain for consistency either in men or things. But we have seen enough of improvement in our own time to justify us in the belief that the world is worth working for and that a good man's life is not thrown away. Such reflections may help us to bring home to ourselves by inward sympathy the language of Plato in the Laws, and to combine into something like a whole his various and at first sight inconsistent utterances.
Isn’t this true about government ideals in general? We always end up disappointed. Nothing significant can be achieved in the brief span of human life; that's why we look forward to another (Republic). As we age, we realize that we can no longer actively pursue our ideals. We’ve had our chances and don’t wish for more than to be human: we’ve received our compensation and are heading home. We also don’t lose hope for the future of humanity, even if our individual contributions seem small compared to the bigger picture. We search in vain for consistency in people or circumstances. But we've seen enough progress in our time to believe that the world is worth working for and that a good person’s life is meaningful. Such thoughts may help us connect with the essence of Plato's ideas in the Laws and piece together his various, seemingly conflicting statements into a coherent whole.
VI. The Republic may be described as the Spartan constitution appended to a government of philosophers. But in the Laws an Athenian element is also introduced. Many enactments are taken from the Athenian; the four classes are borrowed from the constitution of Cleisthenes, which Plato regards as the best form of Athenian government, and the guardians of the law bear a certain resemblance to the archons. In the constitution of the Laws nearly all officers are elected by a vote more or less popular and by lot. But the assembly only exists for the purposes of election, and has no legislative or executive powers. The Nocturnal Council, which is the highest body in the state, has several of the functions of the ancient Athenian Areopagus, after which it appears to be modelled. Life is to wear, as at Athens, a joyous and festive look; there are to be Bacchic choruses, and men of mature age are encouraged in moderate potations. On the other hand, the common meals, the public education, the crypteia are borrowed from Sparta and not from Athens, and the superintendence of private life, which was to be practised by the governors, has also its prototype in Sparta. The extravagant dislike which Plato shows both to a naval power and to extreme democracy is the reverse of Athenian.
VI. The Republic can be seen as a blend of the Spartan system attached to a philosophy-led government. However, in the Laws, there’s also an Athenian influence. Many laws are derived from Athenian practices; the four social classes are taken from Cleisthenes’ constitution, which Plato considers the best form of Athenian governance, and the law guardians resemble the archons. In the Laws’ constitution, almost all officials are chosen through a more or less popular vote and by random selection. However, the assembly exists only for elections and doesn’t have any legislative or executive authority. The Nocturnal Council, the highest governing body, takes on several roles similar to the ancient Athenian Areopagus, which it seems to be modeled after. Life is meant to be cheerful and celebratory, like in Athens; there will be Bacchic choruses, and older men are encouraged to drink moderately. On the other hand, communal meals, public education, and the crypteia are taken from Sparta rather than Athens, and the oversight of private life, meant to be enforced by the rulers, also has its roots in Sparta. Plato’s strong aversion to naval power and extreme democracy stands in contrast to Athenian values.
The best-governed Hellenic states traced the origin of their laws to individual lawgivers. These were real persons, though we are uncertain how far they originated or only modified the institutions which are ascribed to them. But the lawgiver, though not a myth, was a fixed idea in the mind of the Greek,—as fixed as the Trojan war or the earth-born Cadmus. 'This was what Solon meant or said'—was the form in which the Athenian expressed his own conception of right and justice, or argued a disputed point of law. And the constant reference in the Laws of Plato to the lawgiver is altogether in accordance with Greek modes of thinking and speaking.
The best-governed Greek states traced the origins of their laws to individual lawgivers. These were real people, although it’s unclear how much they created or just modified the institutions credited to them. However, the lawgiver, while not a myth, was a fixed concept in the mind of the Greeks—just as fixed as the Trojan War or the earth-born Cadmus. "This is what Solon meant or said" was how the Athenians expressed their understanding of right and justice or debated a legal issue. The frequent mention of the lawgiver in Plato's Laws aligns perfectly with Greek ways of thinking and speaking.
There is also, as in the Republic, a Pythagorean element. The highest branch of education is arithmetic; to know the order of the heavenly bodies, and to reconcile the apparent contradiction of their movements, is an important part of religion; the lives of the citizens are to have a common measure, as also their vessels and coins; the great blessing of the state is the number 5040. Plato is deeply impressed by the antiquity of Egypt, and the unchangeableness of her ancient forms of song and dance. And he is also struck by the progress which the Egyptians had made in the mathematical sciences—in comparison of them the Greeks appeared to him to be little better than swine. Yet he censures the Egyptian meanness and inhospitality to strangers. He has traced the growth of states from their rude beginnings in a philosophical spirit; but of any life or growth of the Hellenic world in future ages he is silent. He has made the reflection that past time is the maker of states (Book iii.); but he does not argue from the past to the future, that the process is always going on, or that the institutions of nations are relative to their stage of civilization. If he could have stamped indelibly upon Hellenic states the will of the legislator, he would have been satisfied. The utmost which he expects of future generations is that they should supply the omissions, or correct the errors which younger statesmen detect in his enactments. When institutions have been once subjected to this process of criticism, he would have them fixed for ever.
There is also, like in the Republic, a Pythagorean aspect. The highest level of education is arithmetic; understanding the movements of the heavenly bodies and resolving the apparent contradictions in their paths is a crucial part of religion. Citizens’ lives should be measured consistently, as should their vessels and coins; the greatest blessing of the state is the number 5040. Plato is deeply impressed by the history of Egypt and the unchanging nature of its ancient songs and dances. He is also struck by the progress the Egyptians made in mathematics—compared to them, the Greeks seemed almost like pigs. However, he criticizes the Egyptians for their meanness and lack of hospitality toward outsiders. He has examined the development of states from their rough beginnings with a philosophical mindset, but he does not mention any future growth or life of the Hellenic world. He reflects that history shapes states (Book iii.); however, he does not argue that this process is ongoing or that a nation’s institutions relate to its level of civilization. If he could have permanently instilled the will of the legislator into Hellenic states, he would have been content. The most he expects from future generations is that they fill in the gaps or fix the mistakes younger lawmakers identify in his laws. Once institutions have undergone this critical process, he would want them to be set in stone forever.
THE PREAMBLE.
The Introduction.
BOOK I. Strangers, let me ask a question of you—Was a God or a man the author of your laws? 'A God, Stranger. In Crete, Zeus is said to have been the author of them; in Sparta, as Megillus will tell you, Apollo.' You Cretans believe, as Homer says, that Minos went every ninth year to converse with his Olympian sire, and gave you laws which he brought from him. 'Yes; and there was Rhadamanthus, his brother, who is reputed among us to have been a most righteous judge.' That is a reputation worthy of the son of Zeus. And as you and Megillus have been trained under these laws, I may ask you to give me an account of them. We can talk about them in our walk from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus. I am told that the distance is considerable, but probably there are shady places under the trees, where, being no longer young, we may often rest and converse. 'Yes, Stranger, a little onward there are beautiful groves of cypresses, and green meadows in which we may repose.'
BOOK I. Strangers, can I ask you a question—were your laws created by a God or a man? 'A God, Stranger. In Crete, it's said that Zeus was the one who created them; in Sparta, as Megillus will tell you, it was Apollo.' You Cretans believe, as Homer says, that Minos went every ninth year to talk with his father in Olympus and brought back the laws. 'Yes, and there was Rhadamanthus, his brother, who is known among us to have been a very just judge.' That's a reputation befitting the son of Zeus. Since you and Megillus were taught under these laws, I would like to hear about them. We can discuss them while walking from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus. I’ve heard the distance is significant, but there are likely shady spots under the trees where we, not being young anymore, can take breaks and chat. 'Yes, Stranger, just a bit further there are beautiful cypress groves and green meadows where we can relax.'
My first question is, Why has the law ordained that you should have common meals, and practise gymnastics, and bear arms? 'My answer is, that all our institutions are of a military character. We lead the life of the camp even in time of peace, keeping up the organization of an army, and having meals in common; and as our country, owing to its ruggedness, is ill-suited for heavy-armed cavalry or infantry, our soldiers are archers, equipped with bows and arrows. The legislator was under the idea that war was the natural state of all mankind, and that peace is only a pretence; he thought that no possessions had any value which were not secured against enemies.' And do you think that superiority in war is the proper aim of government? 'Certainly I do, and my Spartan friend will agree with me.' And are there wars, not only of state against state, but of village against village, of family against family, of individual against individual? 'Yes.' And is a man his own enemy? 'There you come to first principles, like a true votary of the goddess Athene; and this is all the better, for you will the sooner recognize the truth of what I am saying—that all men everywhere are the enemies of all, and each individual of every other and of himself; and, further, that there is a victory and defeat—the best and the worst—which each man sustains, not at the hands of another, but of himself.' And does this extend to states and villages as well as to individuals? 'Certainly; there is a better in them which conquers or is conquered by the worse.' Whether the worse ever really conquers the better, is a question which may be left for the present; but your meaning is, that bad citizens do sometimes overcome the good, and that the state is then conquered by herself, and that when they are defeated the state is victorious over herself. Or, again, in a family there may be several brothers, and the bad may be a majority; and when the bad majority conquer the good minority, the family are worse than themselves. The use of the terms 'better or worse than himself or themselves' may be doubtful, but about the thing meant there can be no dispute. 'Very true.' Such a struggle might be determined by a judge. And which will be the better judge—he who destroys the worse and lets the better rule, or he who lets the better rule and makes the others voluntarily obey; or, thirdly, he who destroys no one, but reconciles the two parties? 'The last, clearly.' But the object of such a judge or legislator would not be war. 'True.' And as there are two kinds of war, one without and one within a state, of which the internal is by far the worse, will not the legislator chiefly direct his attention to this latter? He will reconcile the contending factions, and unite them against their external enemies. 'Certainly.' Every legislator will aim at the greatest good, and the greatest good is not victory in war, whether civil or external, but mutual peace and good-will, as in the body health is preferable to the purgation of disease. He who makes war his object instead of peace, or who pursues war except for the sake of peace, is not a true statesman. 'And yet, Stranger, the laws both of Crete and Sparta aim entirely at war.' Perhaps so; but do not let us quarrel about your legislators—let us be gentle; they were in earnest quite as much as we are, and we must try to discover their meaning. The poet Tyrtaeus (you know his poems in Crete, and my Lacedaemonian friend is only too familiar with them)—he was an Athenian by birth, and a Spartan citizen:—'Well,' he says, 'I sing not, I care not about any man, however rich or happy, unless he is brave in war.' Now I should like, in the name of us all, to ask the poet a question. Oh Tyrtaeus, I would say to him, we agree with you in praising those who excel in war, but which kind of war do you mean?—that dreadful war which is termed civil, or the milder sort which is waged against foreign enemies? You say that you abominate 'those who are not eager to taste their enemies' blood,' and you seem to mean chiefly their foreign enemies. 'Certainly he does.' But we contend that there are men better far than your heroes, Tyrtaeus, concerning whom another poet, Theognis the Sicilian, says that 'in a civil broil they are worth their weight in gold and silver.' For in a civil war, not only courage, but justice and temperance and wisdom are required, and all virtue is better than a part. The mercenary soldier is ready to die at his post; yet he is commonly a violent, senseless creature. And the legislator, whether inspired or uninspired, will make laws with a view to the highest virtue; and this is not brute courage, but loyalty in the hour of danger. The virtue of Tyrtaeus, although needful enough in his own time, is really of a fourth-rate description. 'You are degrading our legislator to a very low level.' Nay, we degrade not him, but ourselves, if we believe that the laws of Lycurgus and Minos had a view to war only. A divine lawgiver would have had regard to all the different kinds of virtue, and have arranged his laws in corresponding classes, and not in the modern fashion, which only makes them after the want of them is felt,—about inheritances and heiresses and assaults, and the like. As you truly said, virtue is the business of the legislator; but you went wrong when you referred all legislation to a part of virtue, and to an inferior part. For the object of laws, whether the Cretan or any other, is to make men happy. Now happiness or good is of two kinds—there are divine and there are human goods. He who has the divine has the human added to him; but he who has lost the greater is deprived of both. The lesser goods are health, beauty, strength, and, lastly, wealth; not the blind God, Pluto, but one who has eyes to see and follow wisdom. For mind or wisdom is the most divine of all goods; and next comes temperance, and justice springs from the union of wisdom and temperance with courage, which is the fourth or last. These four precede other goods, and the legislator will arrange all his ordinances accordingly, the human going back to the divine, and the divine to their leader mind. There will be enactments about marriage, about education, about all the states and feelings and experiences of men and women, at every age, in weal and woe, in war and peace; upon all the law will fix a stamp of praise and blame. There will also be regulations about property and expenditure, about contracts, about rewards and punishments, and finally about funeral rites and honours of the dead. The lawgiver will appoint guardians to preside over these things; and mind will harmonize his ordinances, and show them to be in agreement with temperance and justice. Now I want to know whether the same principles are observed in the laws of Lycurgus and Minos, or, as I should rather say, of Apollo and Zeus. We must go through the virtues, beginning with courage, and then we will show that what has preceded has relation to virtue.
My first question is, why has the law specified that you should share meals, engage in physical training, and be prepared to fight? My answer is that all our institutions are military in nature. We live like soldiers even in peacetime, maintaining an army's organization and having communal meals; and since our country is rugged and not suited for heavily armed cavalry or infantry, our soldiers are archers, equipped with bows and arrows. The lawmaker believed that war is the natural state for all people, and that peace is merely an illusion; he thought that nothing of value is secure unless it is protected from enemies. Do you believe that being strong in war is the main goal of government? Absolutely, and my Spartan friend would agree. Are there wars not just between states but also among villages, families, and individuals? Yes. And can a person be his own enemy? That's where you dig into the basics like a true follower of Athena; and this is great, as you'll quickly see the truth in what I'm saying—that all people everywhere are enemies to one another and to themselves; and moreover, that each person faces their own victories and defeats—not at the hands of others, but from within. Does this apply to states and villages as well? Certainly; there is a better element within them which can conquer or be conquered by the worse. Whether the worse ever truly defeats the better is a question we can save for later; but what you mean is that bad citizens can sometimes overpower the good, resulting in the state being defeated by itself, and when they fail, the state triumphs over itself. In a family, there might be several brothers, and the bad may form a majority; when this bad majority overcomes the good minority, the family is worse off overall. The terms "better or worse than himself or themselves" might be up for debate, but there’s no argument about the concept. Very true. Such a conflict could be resolved by a judge. Which judge would be better—one who eliminates the bad and allows the good to rule, one who permits the good to rule while ensuring the others obey voluntarily, or one who makes no eliminations but reconciles both parties? Clearly the last one. But the aim of such a judge or lawmaker wouldn’t be war. True. Given that there are two types of war, one external and one internal, with the internal being far worse, shouldn’t the lawmaker focus mainly on the latter? They will reconcile the opposing factions and unite them against outside threats. Absolutely. Every lawmaker will strive for the greatest good, and the greatest good isn’t victory in war—whether civil or external—but mutual peace and goodwill, akin to how health is preferred over merely getting rid of disease in the body. A person who prioritizes war over peace, or engages in war except for the sake of peace, is not a true statesman. Yet, Stranger, the laws of both Crete and Sparta are entirely focused on war. Perhaps, but let's not argue about your lawmakers—let’s be kind; they were as earnest as we are, and we should try to understand their intentions. The poet Tyrtaeus (you know his poems in Crete, and my Lacedaemonian friend is all too familiar with them)—he was an Athenian by birth and a Spartan citizen: Well, he states, "I sing not, I care not about any man, however rich or happy, unless he is brave in war." Now I’d like to ask the poet a question on behalf of all of us. Oh Tyrtaeus, I would say to him, we agree with you in praising those who excel in war, but which type of war do you mean?—that dreadful war called civil, or the milder kind fought against foreign enemies? You say you detest "those who are not eager to taste their enemies' blood," and you seem to be referring mainly to foreign foes. Certainly. But we argue that there are men far better than your heroes, Tyrtaeus, about whom another poet, Theognis the Sicilian, says that "in a civil dispute they are worth their weight in gold and silver." For in a civil war, not just courage but also justice, self-control, and wisdom are essential, and all virtue is greater than a single quality. The mercenary soldier may be willing to die for his pay; yet often, he is a rough and thoughtless person. And the lawmaker, whether inspired or not, will create laws aimed at the highest virtues; and this isn’t just brute courage but loyalty in times of danger. The virtue of Tyrtaeus, while necessary in his own time, is significantly lesser. You are putting our lawmaker down to a very low level. No, we diminish ourselves if we think that the laws of Lycurgus and Minos were geared solely towards war. A divine lawgiver would have taken into account all varieties of virtue and organized laws into corresponding categories, not as is done today, where laws emerge only after needs arise—regarding inheritances, heiresses, and assaults, for example. As you stated rightly, virtue is the essence of the lawmaker's work; but you were mistaken in suggesting that all legislation pertains to just a part of virtue, and an inferior part at that. For the primary objective of laws, whether Cretan or otherwise, is to create happiness for people. Now, happiness or goodness comes in two forms—divine and human goods. Whoever possesses the divine also has the human added to them; but if one loses the greater, they lose both. Lesser goods include health, beauty, strength, and ultimately, wealth; not the blind god, Pluto, but one who sees and follows wisdom. For mind or wisdom is the most divine of all goods; next comes self-control, and justice is born from the combination of wisdom and self-control with courage, which is the fourth and final. These four precede other goods, and the lawmaker will arrange all regulations accordingly, with the human reflected in the divine, and the divine leading back to their source, which is mind. There will be laws regarding marriage, education, and all the states, feelings, and experiences of men and women at every age, in times of prosperity and hardship, in war and peace; the law will apply judgments of praise and blame upon all. There will also be regulations about property management and spending, contracts, rewards and punishments, and finally funeral rites and honors for the deceased. The lawmaker will appoint guardians to oversee these matters; and mind will align their ordinances, demonstrating harmony with self-control and justice. Now I want to know whether the same principles are followed in the laws of Lycurgus and Minos, or, as I should rather phrase it, of Apollo and Zeus. We must examine the virtues, starting with courage, and then we will show how what has come before relates to virtue.
'I wish,' says the Lacedaemonian, 'that you, Stranger, would first criticize Cleinias and the Cretan laws.' Yes, is the reply, and I will criticize you and myself, as well as him. Tell me, Megillus, were not the common meals and gymnastic training instituted by your legislator with a view to war? 'Yes; and next in the order of importance comes hunting, and fourth the endurance of pain in boxing contests, and in the beatings which are the punishment of theft. There is, too, the so-called Crypteia or secret service, in which our youth wander about the country night and day unattended, and even in winter go unshod and have no beds to lie on. Moreover they wrestle and exercise under a blazing sun, and they have many similar customs.' Well, but is courage only a combat against fear and pain, and not against pleasure and flattery? 'Against both, I should say.' And which is worse,—to be overcome by pain, or by pleasure? 'The latter.' But did the lawgivers of Crete and Sparta legislate for a courage which is lame of one leg,—able to meet the attacks of pain but not those of pleasure, or for one which can meet both? 'For a courage which can meet both, I should say.' But if so, where are the institutions which train your citizens to be equally brave against pleasure and pain, and superior to enemies within as well as without? 'We confess that we have no institutions worth mentioning which are of this character.' I am not surprised, and will therefore only request forbearance on the part of us all, in case the love of truth should lead any of us to censure the laws of the others. Remember that I am more in the way of hearing criticisms of your laws than you can be; for in well-ordered states like Crete and Sparta, although an old man may sometimes speak of them in private to a ruler or elder, a similar liberty is not allowed to the young. But now being alone we shall not offend your legislator by a friendly examination of his laws. 'Take any freedom which you like.'
"I wish," says the Lacedaemonian, "that you, Stranger, would first critique Cleinias and the Cretan laws." "Sure," is the reply, "and I’ll critique you and myself, too. Tell me, Megillus, didn’t your legislator establish the communal meals and gymnastic training with war in mind?" "Yes, and next in importance is hunting, and after that comes enduring pain in boxing matches and in the beatings that punish theft. There’s also the so-called Crypteia, or secret service, in which our youth roam the countryside day and night, even going barefoot in winter and having no beds to sleep on. They wrestle and train under the blazing sun and have many similar customs." "But is courage just about fighting against fear and pain, and not against pleasure and flattery?" "It’s about both, I’d say." "Which is worse—to be defeated by pain or by pleasure?" "Pleasure." "But did the lawgivers of Crete and Sparta create laws for a courage that is only half-formed—able to handle pain but not pleasure, or for one that can tackle both?" "For a courage that can handle both, I’d argue." "If that’s so, where are the systems that prepare your citizens to be equally brave in the face of pleasure and pain, and stronger against internal as well as external enemies?" "We admit we don’t have any notable systems like that." "I’m not surprised, so I’ll just ask for patience from all of us, in case the pursuit of truth leads any of us to criticize the laws of the others. Remember, I often hear criticisms of your laws more than you do; in well-organized states like Crete and Sparta, even if an older person might sometimes discuss them privately with a ruler or elder, younger individuals aren’t allowed that same freedom. But since we’re alone now, we won’t offend your legislator by friendly examining his laws." "Feel free to take any liberty you like."
My first observation is, that your lawgiver ordered you to endure hardships, because he thought that those who had not this discipline would run away from those who had. But he ought to have considered further, that those who had never learned to resist pleasure would be equally at the mercy of those who had, and these are often among the worst of mankind. Pleasure, like fear, would overcome them and take away their courage and freedom. 'Perhaps; but I must not be hasty in giving my assent.'
My first observation is that your lawgiver instructed you to endure hardships because he believed that those who lacked this discipline would flee from those who had it. However, he should have considered that those who have never learned to resist pleasure would also be at the mercy of those who could, and these individuals are often among the worst in society. Pleasure, like fear, could overpower them, stripping away their courage and freedom. 'Perhaps; but I shouldn't be quick to agree.'
Next as to temperance: what institutions have you which are adapted to promote temperance? 'There are the common meals and gymnastic exercises.' These are partly good and partly bad, and, as in medicine, what is good at one time and for one person, is bad at another time and for another person. Now although gymnastics and common meals do good, they are also a cause of evil in civil troubles, and they appear to encourage unnatural love, as has been shown at Miletus, in Boeotia, and at Thurii. And the Cretans are said to have invented the tale of Zeus and Ganymede in order to justify their evil practices by the example of the God who was their lawgiver. Leaving the story, we may observe that all law has to do with pleasure and pain; these are two fountains which are ever flowing in human nature, and he who drinks of them when and as much as he ought, is happy, and he who indulges in them to excess, is miserable. 'You may be right, but I still incline to think that the Lacedaemonian lawgiver did well in forbidding pleasure, if I may judge from the result. For there is no drunken revelry in Sparta, and any one found in a state of intoxication is severely punished; he is not excused as an Athenian would be at Athens on account of a festival. I myself have seen the Athenians drunk at the Dionysia—and at our colony, Tarentum, on a similar occasion, I have beheld the whole city in a state of intoxication.' I admit that these festivals should be properly regulated. Yet I might reply, 'Yes, Spartans, that is not your vice; but look at home and remember the licentiousness of your women.' And to all such accusations every one of us may reply in turn:—'Wonder not, Stranger; there are different customs in different countries.' Now this may be a sufficient answer; but we are speaking about the wisdom of lawgivers and not about the customs of men. To return to the question of drinking: shall we have total abstinence, as you have, or hard drinking, like the Scythians and Thracians, or moderate potations like the Persians? 'Give us arms, and we send all these nations flying before us.' My good friend, be modest; victories and defeats often arise from unknown causes, and afford no proof of the goodness or badness of institutions. The stronger overcomes the weaker, as the Athenians have overcome the Ceans, or the Syracusans the Locrians, who are, perhaps, the best governed state in that part of the world. People are apt to praise or censure practices without enquiring into the nature of them. This is the way with drink: one person brings many witnesses, who sing the praises of wine; another declares that sober men defeat drunkards in battle; and he again is refuted in turn. I should like to conduct the argument on some other method; for if you regard numbers, there are two cities on one side, and ten thousand on the other. 'I am ready to pursue any method which is likely to lead us to the truth.' Let me put the matter thus: Somebody praises the useful qualities of a goat; another has seen goats running about wild in a garden, and blames a goat or any other animal which happens to be without a keeper. 'How absurd!' Would a pilot who is sea-sick be a good pilot? 'No.' Or a general who is sick and drunk with fear and ignorant of war a good general? 'A general of old women he ought to be.' But can any one form an estimate of any society, which is intended to have a ruler, and which he only sees in an unruly and lawless state? 'No.' There is a convivial form of society—is there not? 'Yes.' And has this convivial society ever been rightly ordered? Of course you Spartans and Cretans have never seen anything of the kind, but I have had wide experience, and made many enquiries about such societies, and have hardly ever found anything right or good in them. 'We acknowledge our want of experience, and desire to learn of you.' Will you admit that in all societies there must be a leader? 'Yes.' And in time of war he must be a man of courage and absolutely devoid of fear, if this be possible? 'Certainly.' But we are talking now of a general who shall preside at meetings of friends—and as these have a tendency to be uproarious, they ought above all others to have a governor. 'Very good.' He should be a sober man and a man of the world, who will keep, make, and increase the peace of the society; a drunkard in charge of drunkards would be singularly fortunate if he avoided doing a serious mischief. 'Indeed he would.' Suppose a person to censure such meetings—he may be right, but also he may have known them only in their disorderly state, under a drunken master of the feast; and a drunken general or pilot cannot save his army or his ships. 'True; but although I see the advantage of an army having a good general, I do not equally see the good of a feast being well managed.' If you mean to ask what good accrues to the state from the right training of a single youth or a single chorus, I should reply, 'Not much'; but if you ask what is the good of education in general, I answer, that education makes good men, and that good men act nobly and overcome their enemies in battle. Victory is often suicidal to the victors, because it creates forgetfulness of education, but education itself is never suicidal. 'You imply that the regulation of convivial meetings is a part of education; how will you prove this?' I will tell you. But first let me offer a word of apology. We Athenians are always thought to be fond of talking, whereas the Lacedaemonian is celebrated for brevity, and the Cretan is considered to be sagacious and reserved. Now I fear that I may be charged with spinning a long discourse out of slender materials. For drinking cannot be rightly ordered without correct principles of music, and music runs up into education generally, and to discuss all these matters may be tedious; if you like, therefore, we will pass on to another part of our subject. 'Are you aware, Athenian, that our family is your proxenus at Sparta, and that from my boyhood I have regarded Athens as a second country, and having often fought your battles in my youth, I have become attached to you, and love the sound of the Attic dialect? The saying is true, that the best Athenians are more than ordinarily good, because they are good by nature; therefore, be assured that I shall be glad to hear you talk as much as you please.' 'I, too,' adds Cleinias, 'have a tie which binds me to you. You know that Epimenides, the Cretan prophet, came and offered sacrifices in your city by the command of an oracle ten years before the Persian war. He told the Athenians that the Persian host would not come for ten years, and would go away again, having suffered more harm than they had inflicted. Now Epimenides was of my family, and when he visited Athens he entered into friendship with your forefathers.' I see that you are willing to listen, and I have the will to speak, if I had only the ability. But, first, I must define the nature and power of education, and by this road we will travel on to the God Dionysus. The man who is to be good at anything must have early training;—the future builder must play at building, and the husbandman at digging; the soldier must learn to ride, and the carpenter to measure and use the rule,—all the thoughts and pleasures of children should bear on their after-profession.—Do you agree with me? 'Certainly.' And we must remember further that we are speaking of the education, not of a trainer, or of the captain of a ship, but of a perfect citizen who knows how to rule and how to obey; and such an education aims at virtue, and not at wealth or strength or mere cleverness. To the good man, education is of all things the most precious, and is also in constant need of renovation. 'We agree.' And we have before agreed that good men are those who are able to control themselves, and bad men are those who are not. Let me offer you an illustration which will assist our argument. Man is one; but in one and the same man are two foolish counsellors who contend within him—pleasure and pain, and of either he has expectations which we call hope and fear; and he is able to reason about good and evil, and reason, when affirmed by the state, becomes law. 'We cannot follow you.' Let me put the matter in another way: Every creature is a puppet of the Gods—whether he is a mere plaything or has any serious use we do not know; but this we do know, that he is drawn different ways by cords and strings. There is a soft golden cord which draws him towards virtue—this is the law of the state; and there are other cords made of iron and hard materials drawing him other ways. The golden reasoning influence has nothing of the nature of force, and therefore requires ministers in order to vanquish the other principles. This explains the doctrine that cities and citizens both conquer and are conquered by themselves. The individual follows reason, and the city law, which is embodied reason, either derived from the Gods or from the legislator. When virtue and vice are thus distinguished, education will be better understood, and in particular the relation of education to convivial intercourse. And now let us set wine before the puppet. You admit that wine stimulates the passions? 'Yes.' And does wine equally stimulate the reasoning faculties? 'No; it brings the soul back to a state of childhood.' In such a state a man has the least control over himself, and is, therefore, worst. 'Very true.' Then how can we believe that drinking should be encouraged? 'You seem to think that it ought to be.' And I am ready to maintain my position. 'We should like to hear you prove that a man ought to make a beast of himself.' You are speaking of the degradation of the soul: but how about the body? Would any man willingly degrade or weaken that? 'Certainly not.' And yet if he goes to a doctor or a gymnastic master, does he not make himself ill in the hope of getting well? for no one would like to be always taking medicine, or always to be in training. 'True.' And may not convivial meetings have a similar remedial use? And if so, are they not to be preferred to other modes of training because they are painless? 'But have they any such use?' Let us see: Are there not two kinds of fear—fear of evil and fear of an evil reputation? 'There are.' The latter kind of fear is opposed both to the fear of pain and to the love of pleasure. This is called by the legislator reverence, and is greatly honoured by him and by every good man; whereas confidence, which is the opposite quality, is the worst fault both of individuals and of states. This sort of fear or reverence is one of the two chief causes of victory in war, fearlessness of enemies being the other. 'True.' Then every one should be both fearful and fearless? 'Yes.' The right sort of fear is infused into a man when he comes face to face with shame, or cowardice, or the temptations of pleasure, and has to conquer them. He must learn by many trials to win the victory over himself, if he is ever to be made perfect. 'That is reasonable enough.' And now, suppose that the Gods had given mankind a drug, of which the effect was to exaggerate every sort of evil and danger, so that the bravest man entirely lost his presence of mind and became a coward for a time:—would such a drug have any value? 'But is there such a drug?' No; but suppose that there were; might not the legislator use such a mode of testing courage and cowardice? 'To be sure.' The legislator would induce fear in order to implant fearlessness; and would give rewards or punishments to those who behaved well or the reverse, under the influence of the drug? 'Certainly.' And this mode of training, whether practised in the case of one or many, whether in solitude or in the presence of a large company—if a man have sufficient confidence in himself to drink the potion amid his boon companions, leaving off in time and not taking too much,—would be an equally good test of temperance? 'Very true.' Let us return to the lawgiver and say to him, 'Well, lawgiver, no such fear-producing potion has been given by God or invented by man, but there is a potion which will make men fearless.' 'You mean wine.' Yes; has not wine an effect the contrary of that which I was just now describing,—first mellowing and humanizing a man, and then filling him with confidence, making him ready to say or do anything? 'Certainly.' Let us not forget that there are two qualities which should be cultivated in the soul—first, the greatest fearlessness, and, secondly, the greatest fear, which are both parts of reverence. Courage and fearlessness are trained amid dangers; but we have still to consider how fear is to be trained. We desire to attain fearlessness and confidence without the insolence and boldness which commonly attend them. For do not love, ignorance, avarice, wealth, beauty, strength, while they stimulate courage, also madden and intoxicate the soul? What better and more innocent test of character is there than festive intercourse? Would you make a bargain with a man in order to try whether he is honest? Or would you ascertain whether he is licentious by putting your wife or daughter into his hands? No one would deny that the test proposed is fairer, speedier, and safer than any other. And such a test will be particularly useful in the political science, which desires to know human natures and characters. 'Very true.'
Next, regarding temperance: what institutions do you have that promote temperance? 'There are communal meals and physical exercises.' These are somewhat beneficial and somewhat harmful, similar to medicine, where what helps one person at one time might harm another at a different time. While gymnastics and communal meals do have positive effects, they can also lead to civil unrest and seem to encourage unnatural relationships, as observed in Miletus, Boeotia, and Thurii. The Cretans supposedly created the story of Zeus and Ganymede to justify their immoral actions by citing their God, who was their lawgiver. Setting aside the tale, we should note that all laws relate to pleasure and pain; these are two continuous sources in human nature, and those who partake of them at the right time and in moderation are happy, while those who indulge excessively are unhappy. 'You might be right, but I still believe that the Lacedaemonian lawgiver was wise to restrict pleasure, judging by the results. There is no drunken celebration in Sparta, and anyone found intoxicated is severely punished; they aren’t excused as an Athenian might be during a festival. I've witnessed Athenians drunk during the Dionysia, and in our colony of Tarentum, I’ve seen the entire city in a state of intoxication.' I agree that these festivals should be well-regulated. However, I could also counter, 'Yes, Spartans, that's not your issue; but look at home and consider the looseness of your women.' To such accusations, any of us might respond: 'Don't be surprised, Stranger; different countries have different customs.' This might be a sufficient answer, but we are analyzing the wisdom of lawmakers, not human customs. Returning to drinking: should we have total abstinence like you do, excessive drinking like the Scythians and Thracians, or moderate drinking like the Persians? 'Give us arms, and we can make all these nations flee.' My good friend, be reasonable; victories and defeats often stem from unknown factors and don’t prove the worth of any institutions. The stronger conquers the weaker, as the Athenians have defeated the Ceans, or the Syracusans have defeated the Locrians, who may be the best-governed state in that part of the world. People tend to praise or blame practices without examining their nature. This applies to alcohol: one person may present many testimonies that extol wine, while another claims sober individuals win against drunkards in battle; then that person gets refuted in turn. I'd prefer to approach the argument differently; for if you consider numbers, there are two cities on one side and ten thousand on the other. 'I'm open to pursuing any method likely to lead us to the truth.' Let me frame it this way: someone praises the valuable qualities of a goat; another person has seen goats running wild in a garden and criticizes a goat or any other animal that happens to be unguarded. 'How ridiculous!' Would a pilot suffering from seasickness be a good pilot? 'No.' Or a general who is ill and terrified, ignorant of warfare, be a good general? 'He would be fit only to lead a group of elderly women.' But can anyone accurately evaluate any society intended to have a ruler if they only observe it in a chaotic, lawless condition? 'No.' There is a festive type of society, isn't there? 'Yes.' Has this festive society ever been properly organized? Of course, you Spartans and Cretans haven't experienced anything like that, but I have extensive experience and have inquired about such societies, and I’ve hardly ever found anything genuinely good or right within them. 'We admit our lack of experience and wish to learn from you.' Will you acknowledge that every society needs a leader? 'Yes.' And during war, this leader must be courageous and completely fearless, if possible? 'Absolutely.' But we are discussing a general who will lead gatherings of friends—since these can tend to turn chaotic, they need a leader more than any others. 'Very true.' This leader should be a sober, worldly individual who will maintain, create, and enhance the group’s peace. A drunkard in charge of other drunkards would be quite lucky if he avoided causing serious chaos. 'Indeed he would.' Suppose someone criticizes such gatherings—they may be correct, but they might only know them in their disordered state, under a drunken host; and a drunk general or pilot cannot save his troops or ships. 'True; but while I see the benefit of having a good general for an army, I don't see the benefit of a well-managed feast.' If you're asking what benefit a state gains from properly training a single youth or a single group, I'd say, 'Not much'; but if you ask about the general benefits of education, I’d respond that education produces good individuals, and good individuals act nobly and defeat their enemies in battle. Victory can often be detrimental to victors because it leads to neglect of education, but education itself is never harmful. 'You suggest that the regulation of social gatherings is part of education; how will you prove this?' I will explain. But first, let me apologize. We Athenians are often seen as talkative, while the Lacedaemonians are known for brevity, and Cretans are thought to be insightful and discreet. I'm concerned that I may be accused of elaborating excessively on limited material. For drinking cannot be properly managed without correct musical principles, and music ties into education broadly, and discussing all these topics may be tedious; if you prefer, we can move on to another aspect of our discussion. 'Are you aware, Athenian, that our family serves as your representative in Sparta, and that since my childhood I have viewed Athens as a second home, and having often fought in your battles as a youth, I have developed a fondness for you and admire the Attic dialect? The saying holds true that the best Athenians are exceptionally good because they are inherently good; therefore, rest assured that I'm eager to listen to you speak as much as you wish.' 'I too,' adds Cleinias, 'have a connection to you. You know that Epimenides, the Cretan prophet, came to your city and made sacrifices under the orders of an oracle ten years before the Persian war. He informed the Athenians that the Persian army would not come for ten years and would leave having suffered more harm than they inflicted. Now, Epimenides was a member of my family, and during his visit to Athens, he formed a bond with your ancestors.' I see that you are willing to listen, and I am eager to speak, if only I had the capability. But first, I must clarify the nature and importance of education, and with this understanding, we will travel toward the God Dionysus. To excel at anything, an individual must have early training—the future builder must play at building, the farmer must practice digging; the soldier must learn to ride, and the carpenter must learn to measure and use tools—all the thoughts and joys of children should align with their future professions.—Do you agree with me? 'Absolutely.' And we must remember that we are discussing the education of a complete citizen, not just a trainer or a ship’s captain, and such education aims for virtue, not wealth, strength, or mere cleverness. For the good individual, education is the most precious thing and requires constant renewal. 'We agree.' And we previously agreed that good individuals are those who can control themselves, while bad individuals cannot. Let me give you an example to support our discussion. A person is one; however, within that one person are two foolish advisors who argue inside him—pleasure and pain, and from each, he has expectations that we call hope and fear; he can reason about good and bad, and reason, when validated by the state, becomes law. 'We cannot follow you.' Let me express this differently: Every being is a puppet of the Gods—whether he is merely a plaything or holds true significance, we do not know; but we do know he is pulled in various directions by cords and strings. There is a soft golden cord guiding him toward virtue—this is the law of the state; and there are other cords made of iron and stiff materials pulling him in other directions. The golden influence of reasoning doesn’t force, and thus requires helpers to overcome the other motivations. This explains why cities and citizens both win and lose against themselves. The individual follows reason, and the city’s law, which is embodied reasoning, derived either from the Gods or from the legislator. Once we can differentiate between virtue and vice in this way, education will be understood more clearly, especially the connection between education and social gatherings. Now, let’s consider wine. You agree that wine fuels passions? 'Yes.' And does wine stimulate reasoning just as much? 'No; it brings the soul back to a childlike state.' In such a time, a person typically loses control and is at their worst. 'Very true.' So how can we trust that drinking should be encouraged? 'You seem to believe it should be.' And I’m prepared to defend my stance. 'We would like to hear your argument for why someone should debase themselves.' You’re referring to the soul's degradation: but what about the body? Would anyone knowingly wish to weaken or degrade it? 'Certainly not.' Yet, if he visits a doctor or sports trainer, doesn’t he sometimes make himself sick hoping to get better? No one would want to take medicine forever or undergo constant training. 'True.' Might social gatherings serve a similar healing purpose? And if so, wouldn’t they be preferable to other training methods because they are painless? 'But do they have such a purpose?' Let's explore: Are there not two types of fear—fear of harm and fear of a bad reputation? 'Yes.' The latter opposes both the fear of pain and the love of pleasure. It’s referred to by lawmakers as reverence, which is valued highly by them and every decent individual; meanwhile, confidence, which is the opposite trait, is the worst flaw for both individuals and states. This sort of fear or reverence is one of the two primary contributors to victory in war, the other being fearlessness toward enemies. 'True.' So everyone should possess both types of fear? 'Yes.' The right type of fear emerges when one confronts shame, cowardice, or temptations of pleasure, and must conquer them. Individuals need to learn through many trials to master themselves if they want to attain perfection. 'That makes sense.' Now, suppose the Gods had given humanity a drug that inflated every sort of danger and evil, causing even the bravest person to temporarily lose their composure and become cowardly: would such a drug hold any value? 'But does such a drug exist?' No; but suppose it did; could not a lawmaker use such a method to assess courage and cowardice? 'Certainly.' The lawmaker would create fear to foster fearlessness and assign rewards or punishments to those who acted appropriately or otherwise under the influence of the drug. 'Absolutely.' This method of training, whether applied to an individual or a group, whether in solitude or in the midst of many—if a person has enough confidence to drink the potion in front of friends, stopping in time, and not overindulging—would be a reliable test of temperance? 'Very true.' Let’s turn to the lawmaker and say to him, 'Well, lawmaker, no such fear-inducing potion has been bestowed by God or invented by man, but there is a drink that removes fear from men.' 'You mean wine.' Yes; doesn’t wine have effects opposite to what I just described—first softening and humanizing a person, then instilling confidence, making them ready to say or do anything? 'Certainly.' Let’s not forget that there are two attributes we should develop in the soul—first, the utmost fearlessness and second, the utmost fear, both of which contribute to reverence. Courage and fearlessness are cultivated in the face of danger; yet, we need also to consider how fear is to be trained. We want to achieve fearlessness and confidence without the arrogance and rashness that usually accompany them. For do not love, ignorance, greed, wealth, beauty, and strength, while they stir courage, also confuse and intoxicate the soul? What finer or more innocent measure of character exists than festive companionship? Would you strike a deal with someone to test their honesty? Or would you evaluate whether they are licentious by putting your wife or daughter in their care? No one would argue that the suggested test is fairer, quicker, and safer than any other. And such a test would be particularly valuable in political science, which seeks to understand human natures and characters. 'Very true.'
BOOK II. And are there any other uses of well-ordered potations? There are; but in order to explain them, I must repeat what I mean by right education; which, if I am not mistaken, depends on the due regulation of convivial intercourse. 'A high assumption.' I believe that virtue and vice are originally present to the mind of children in the form of pleasure and pain; reason and fixed principles come later, and happy is he who acquires them even in declining years; for he who possesses them is the perfect man. When pleasure and pain, and love and hate, are rightly implanted in the yet unconscious soul, and after the attainment of reason are discovered to be in harmony with her, this harmony of the soul is virtue, and the preparatory stage, anticipating reason, I call education. But the finer sense of pleasure and pain is apt to be impaired in the course of life; and therefore the Gods, pitying the toils and sorrows of mortals, have allowed them to have holidays, and given them the Muses and Apollo and Dionysus for leaders and playfellows. All young creatures love motion and frolic, and utter sounds of delight; but man only is capable of taking pleasure in rhythmical and harmonious movements. With these education begins; and the uneducated is he who has never known the discipline of the chorus, and the educated is he who has. The chorus is partly dance and partly song, and therefore the well-educated must sing and dance well. But when we say, 'He sings and dances well,' we mean that he sings and dances what is good. And if he thinks that to be good which is really good, he will have a much higher music and harmony in him, and be a far greater master of imitation in sound and gesture than he who is not of this opinion. 'True.' Then, if we know what is good and bad in song and dance, we shall know what education is? 'Very true.' Let us now consider the beauty of figure, melody, song, and dance. Will the same figures or sounds be equally well adapted to the manly and the cowardly when they are in trouble? 'How can they be, when the very colours of their faces are different?' Figures and melodies have a rhythm and harmony which are adapted to the expression of different feelings (I may remark, by the way, that the term 'colour,' which is a favourite word of music-masters, is not really applicable to music). And one class of harmonies is akin to courage and all virtue, the other to cowardice and all vice. 'We agree.' And do all men equally like all dances? 'Far otherwise.' Do some figures, then, appear to be beautiful which are not? For no one will admit that the forms of vice are more beautiful than the forms of virtue, or that he prefers the first kind to the second. And yet most persons say that the merit of music is to give pleasure. But this is impiety. There is, however, a more plausible account of the matter given by others, who make their likes or dislikes the criterion of excellence. Sometimes nature crosses habit, or conversely, and then they say that such and such fashions or gestures are pleasant, but they do not like to exhibit them before men of sense, although they enjoy them in private. 'Very true.' And do vicious measures and strains do any harm, or good measures any good to the lovers of them? 'Probably.' Say, rather 'Certainly': for the gentle indulgence which we often show to vicious men inevitably makes us become like them. And what can be worse than this? 'Nothing.' Then in a well-administered city, the poet will not be allowed to make the songs of the people just as he pleases, or to train his choruses without regard to virtue and vice. 'Certainly not.' And yet he may do this anywhere except in Egypt; for there ages ago they discovered the great truth which I am now asserting, that the young should be educated in forms and strains of virtue. These they fixed and consecrated in their temples; and no artist or musician is allowed to deviate from them. They are literally the same which they were ten thousand years ago. And this practice of theirs suggests the reflection that legislation about music is not an impossible thing. But the particular enactments must be the work of God or of some God-inspired man, as in Egypt their ancient chants are said to be the composition of the goddess Isis. The melodies which have a natural truth and correctness should be embodied in a law, and then the desire of novelty is not strong enough to change the old fashions. Is not the origin of music as follows? We rejoice when we think that we prosper, and we think that we prosper when we rejoice, and at such times we cannot rest, but our young men dance dances and sing songs, and our old men, who have lost the elasticity of youth, regale themselves with the memory of the past, while they contemplate the life and activity of the young. 'Most true.' People say that he who gives us most pleasure at such festivals is to win the palm: are they right? 'Possibly.' Let us not be hasty in deciding, but first imagine a festival at which the lord of the festival, having assembled the citizens, makes a proclamation that he shall be crowned victor who gives the most pleasure, from whatever source derived. We will further suppose that there are exhibitions of rhapsodists and musicians, tragic and comic poets, and even marionette-players—which of the pleasure-makers will win? Shall I answer for you?—the marionette-players will please the children; youths will decide for comedy; young men, educated women, and people in general will prefer tragedy; we old men are lovers of Homer and Hesiod. Now which of them is right? If you and I are asked, we shall certainly say that the old men's way of thinking ought to prevail. 'Very true.' So far I agree with the many that the excellence of music is to be measured by pleasure; but then the pleasure must be that of the good and educated, or better still, of one supremely virtuous and educated man. The true judge must have both wisdom and courage. For he must lead the multitude and not be led by them, and must not weakly yield to the uproar of the theatre, nor give false judgment out of that mouth which has just appealed to the Gods. The ancient custom of Hellas, which still prevails in Italy and Sicily, left the judgment to the spectators, but this custom has been the ruin of the poets, who seek only to please their patrons, and has degraded the audience by the representation of inferior characters. What is the inference? The same which we have often drawn, that education is the training of the young idea in what the law affirms and the elders approve. And as the soul of a child is too young to be trained in earnest, a kind of education has been invented which tempts him with plays and songs, as the sick are tempted by pleasant meats and drinks. And the wise legislator will compel the poet to express in his poems noble thoughts in fitting words and rhythms. 'But is this the practice elsewhere than in Crete and Lacedaemon? In other states, as far as I know, dances and music are constantly changed at the pleasure of the hearers.' I am afraid that I misled you; not liking to be always finding fault with mankind as they are, I described them as they ought to be. But let me understand: you say that such customs exist among the Cretans and Lacedaemonians, and that the rest of the world would be improved by adopting them? 'Much improved.' And you compel your poets to declare that the righteous are happy, and that the wicked man, even if he be as rich as Midas, is unhappy? Or, in the words of Tyrtaeus, 'I sing not, I care not about him' who is a great warrior not having justice; if he be unjust, 'I would not have him look calmly upon death or be swifter than the wind'; and may he be deprived of every good—that is, of every true good. For even if he have the goods which men regard, these are not really goods: first health; beauty next; thirdly wealth; and there are others. A man may have every sense purged and improved; he may be a tyrant, and do what he likes, and live for ever: but you and I will maintain that all these things are goods to the just, but to the unjust the greatest of evils, if life be immortal; not so great if he live for a short time only. If a man had health and wealth, and power, and was insolent and unjust, his life would still be miserable; he might be fair and rich, and do what he liked, but he would live basely, and if basely evilly, and if evilly painfully. 'There I cannot agree with you.' Then may heaven give us the spirit of agreement, for I am as convinced of the truth of what I say as that Crete is an island; and, if I were a lawgiver, I would exercise a censorship over the poets, and I would punish them if they said that the wicked are happy, or that injustice is profitable. And these are not the only matters in which I should make my citizens talk in a different way to the world in general. If I asked Zeus and Apollo, the divine legislators of Crete and Sparta,—'Are the just and pleasant life the same or not the same'?—and they replied,—'Not the same'; and I asked again—'Which is the happier'? And they said'—'The pleasant life,' this is an answer not fit for a God to utter, and therefore I ought rather to put the same question to some legislator. And if he replies 'The pleasant,' then I should say to him, 'O my father, did you not tell me that I should live as justly as possible'? and if to be just is to be happy, what is that principle of happiness or good which is superior to pleasure? Is the approval of gods and men to be deemed good and honourable, but unpleasant, and their disapproval the reverse? Or is the neither doing nor suffering evil good and honourable, although not pleasant? But you cannot make men like what is not pleasant, and therefore you must make them believe that the just is pleasant. The business of the legislator is to clear up this confusion. He will show that the just and the unjust are identical with the pleasurable and the painful, from the point of view of the just man, of the unjust the reverse. And which is the truer judgment? Surely that of the better soul. For if not the truth, it is the best and most moral of fictions; and the legislator who desires to propagate this useful lie, may be encouraged by remarking that mankind have believed the story of Cadmus and the dragon's teeth, and therefore he may be assured that he can make them believe anything, and need only consider what fiction will do the greatest good. That the happiest is also the holiest, this shall be our strain, which shall be sung by all three choruses alike. First will enter the choir of children, who will lift up their voices on high; and after them the young men, who will pray the God Paean to be gracious to the youth, and to testify to the truth of their words; then will come the chorus of elder men, between thirty and sixty; and, lastly, there will be the old men, and they will tell stories enforcing the same virtues, as with the voice of an oracle. 'Whom do you mean by the third chorus?' You remember how I spoke at first of the restless nature of young creatures, who jumped about and called out in a disorderly manner, and I said that no other animal attained any perception of rhythm; but that to us the Gods gave Apollo and the Muses and Dionysus to be our playfellows. Of the two first choruses I have already spoken, and I have now to speak of the third, or Dionysian chorus, which is composed of those who are between thirty and sixty years old. 'Let us hear.' We are agreed (are we not?) that men, women, and children should be always charming themselves with strains of virtue, and that there should be a variety in the strains, that they may not weary of them? Now the fairest and most useful of strains will be uttered by the elder men, and therefore we cannot let them off. But how can we make them sing? For a discreet elderly man is ashamed to hear the sound of his own voice in private, and still more in public. The only way is to give them drink; this will mellow the sourness of age. No one should be allowed to taste wine until they are eighteen; from eighteen to thirty they may take a little; but when they have reached forty years, they may be initiated into the mystery of drinking. Thus they will become softer and more impressible; and when a man's heart is warm within him, he will be more ready to charm himself and others with song. And what songs shall he sing? 'At Crete and Lacedaemon we only know choral songs.' Yes; that is because your way of life is military. Your young men are like wild colts feeding in a herd together; no one takes the individual colt and trains him apart, and tries to give him the qualities of a statesman as well as of a soldier. He who was thus trained would be a greater warrior than those of whom Tyrtaeus speaks, for he would be courageous, and yet he would know that courage was only fourth in the scale of virtue. 'Once more, I must say, Stranger, that you run down our lawgivers.' Not intentionally, my good friend, but whither the argument leads I follow; and I am trying to find some style of poetry suitable for those who dislike the common sort. 'Very good.' In all things which have a charm, either this charm is their good, or they have some accompanying truth or advantage. For example, in eating and drinking there is pleasure and also profit, that is to say, health; and in learning there is a pleasure and also truth. There is a pleasure or charm, too, in the imitative arts, as well as a law of proportion or equality; but the pleasure which they afford, however innocent, is not the criterion of their truth. The test of pleasure cannot be applied except to that which has no other good or evil, no truth or falsehood. But that which has truth must be judged of by the standard of truth, and therefore imitation and proportion are to be judged of by their truth alone. 'Certainly.' And as music is imitative, it is not to be judged by the criterion of pleasure, and the Muse whom we seek is the muse not of pleasure but of truth, for imitation has a truth. 'Doubtless.' And if so, the judge must know what is being imitated before he decides on the quality of the imitation, and he who does not know what is true will not know what is good. 'He will not.' Will any one be able to imitate the human body, if he does not know the number, proportion, colour, or figure of the limbs? 'How can he?' But suppose we know some picture or figure to be an exact resemblance of a man, should we not also require to know whether the picture is beautiful or not? 'Quite right.' The judge of the imitation is required to know, therefore, first the original, secondly the truth, and thirdly the merit of the execution? 'True.' Then let us not weary in the attempt to bring music to the standard of the Muses and of truth. The Muses are not like human poets; they never spoil or mix rhythms or scales, or mingle instruments and human voices, or confuse the manners and strains of men and women, or of freemen and slaves, or of rational beings and brute animals. They do not practise the baser sorts of musical arts, such as the 'matured judgments,' of whom Orpheus speaks, would ridicule. But modern poets separate metre from music, and melody and rhythm from words, and use the instrument alone without the voice. The consequence is, that the meaning of the rhythm and of the time are not understood. I am endeavouring to show how our fifty-year-old choristers are to be trained, and what they are to avoid. The opinion of the multitude about these matters is worthless; they who are only made to step in time by sheer force cannot be critics of music. 'Impossible.' Then our newly-appointed minstrels must be trained in music sufficiently to understand the nature of rhythms and systems; and they should select such as are suitable to men of their age, and will enable them to give and receive innocent pleasure. This is a knowledge which goes beyond that either of the poets or of their auditors in general. For although the poet must understand rhythm and music, he need not necessarily know whether the imitation is good or not, which was the third point required in a judge; but our chorus of elders must know all three, if they are to be the instructors of youth.
BOOK II. Are there any other benefits to well-structured drinking? Yes, there are; but to explain them, I need to clarify what I mean by proper education, which, if I’m right, relies on the right management of social interactions. 'A lofty claim.' I believe that kids initially understand virtue and vice as pleasure and pain; reason and established beliefs come later, and lucky is the one who gathers them even in later years; for whoever has them is the complete person. When pleasure and pain, and love and hate, are correctly instilled in the still-unaware soul, and after gaining reason are found to align with it, this alignment of the soul is virtue, and I refer to the preliminary stage, prior to reason, as education. However, the more refined sense of pleasure and pain tends to deteriorate as we go through life; therefore, the gods, feeling compassion for the struggles and hardships of humans, have granted them holidays and provided them with the Muses, Apollo, and Dionysus as guides and companions. All young beings enjoy movement and play, expressing sounds of joy; but only humans can take pleasure in rhythmic and harmonious movements. This is where education starts; the uneducated person is one who has never experienced the discipline of the chorus, while the educated one has. The chorus combines dance and song, so the well-educated must sing and dance well. Yet, when we say, 'He sings and dances well,' we mean that he sings and dances what is good. If he understands that what he considers good is genuinely good, he will have a much higher sense of music and harmony within him, and be a far greater master of imitation in sound and gesture than one who doesn’t share this belief. 'True.' Therefore, if we know what is good and bad in song and dance, we will understand what education is? 'Very true.' Now let's examine the beauty of form, melody, song, and dance. Will the same figures or sounds suit the brave and the cowardly equally well when they’re in distress? 'How can they, when their very expressions are different?' Figures and melodies carry rhythms and harmonies suited to expressing different emotions (I should note, by the way, that the term 'color,' often used by music teachers, doesn’t truly apply to music). One set of harmonies is related to courage and all virtues, while the other is linked to cowardice and all vices. 'We agree.' And do all people equally enjoy all dances? 'Far from it.' Do some figures appear beautiful when they actually are not? For no one will admit that the forms of vice are more attractive than the forms of virtue, or that he prefers vice over virtue. Yet, most say that the value of music lies in providing pleasure. But this is disrespectful. Others propose a more compelling perspective, claiming that their likes or dislikes determine excellence. Sometimes nature contradicts habit, or vice versa, and then they say that certain styles or movements are enjoyable, but they wouldn’t want to show them in front of those with good judgment, even though they enjoy them privately. 'Very true.' And do harmful measures and tunes cause any harm, or do good measures benefit their enthusiasts? 'Probably.' Rather say 'Certainly': for the gentle leniency we often show to bad people inevitably leads us to become like them. And what could be worse than this? 'Nothing.' Then in a well-governed city, poets shouldn’t be allowed to write the songs of the people however they wish, or train their choruses without considering virtue and vice. 'Certainly not.' Yet, they can do this anywhere but in Egypt; there, ages ago, they recognized the great truth I’m now stating, that the young should be educated in forms and rhythms of virtue. They established and sanctified these in their temples; no artist or musician is allowed to stray from them. They remain unchanged from what they were ten thousand years ago. This practice suggests that legislation regarding music isn’t impossible. However, the specific laws must be crafted by God or a divinely inspired individual, as in Egypt, where their ancient songs are said to be the work of the goddess Isis. Melodies with natural truth and correctness should be codified into law, thus ensuring that the desire for novelty isn’t strong enough to alter the old ways. Isn’t the origin of music as follows? We rejoice when we feel prosperous, and we feel prosperous when we rejoice, and during such times, we cannot remain still; our young men dance and sing, while our elders, having lost their youthful vitality, delight in reminiscing about the past as they watch the young in action. 'Most true.' People say that the one who brings us the most joy at such events should win the prize: are they correct? 'Possibly.' Let’s not rush to judgment, but first imagine a festival where the lord of the event, having gathered the citizens, announces that the victor will be crowned based on the pleasure they provide, regardless of the source. We further suppose that there are performances by rhapsodists, musicians, tragic and comic poets, and even puppeteers—who among these entertainers would win? Should I answer for you?—the puppeteers will delight the children; the youth will lean towards comedy; young men, educated women, and the general population will favor tragedy; and we old men are fans of Homer and Hesiod. Now, which of them is right? If you and I were asked, we would certainly argue that the perspective of the old men should dominate. 'Very true.' Thus far, I agree with the masses that the quality of music should be gauged by pleasure; but this pleasure must belong to the good and educated, or better yet, to someone who is exceptionally virtuous and educated. The genuine judge must possess both wisdom and courage. He must lead the crowd and not be led by them, and he must not give in weakly to the commotion of the theater, nor pass a false judgment from a mouth that has just called upon the Gods. The ancient practice of Hellas, still present in Italy and Sicily, left the judgment to the audience, but this custom has harmed the poets, who only seek to please their patrons, thus degrading the audience through the portrayal of inferior characters. What is the conclusion? The same one we have often reached, that education is about training the young mind in what the law affirms and the elders endorse. And since a child's soul is too young for serious training, a form of education has been created that entices them with plays and songs, similar to how the sick are tempted by sweet foods and drinks. A wise legislator will compel the poet to express noble ideas in appropriate words and rhythms. 'But is this practice observed outside of Crete and Lacedaemon? In other states, as far as I know, dance and music are constantly adjusted to suit the preferences of listeners.' I regret if I misled you; not wanting to constantly criticize humanity as it is, I described it as it should be. But let me comprehend: you say that such customs exist among the Cretans and Lacedaemonians, and that the wider world would benefit from adopting them? 'Much improved.' And you insist that your poets declare that the righteous are happy, and that the wicked person, regardless of wealth like Midas, is unhappy? Or, in the words of Tyrtaeus, 'I sing not, I care not for him' who is a great warrior lacking justice; if he is unjust, 'I would not want him to face death calmly or be swifter than the wind'; and may he be deprived of anything truly good. For even if he possesses what people consider goods, these aren’t genuinely good: first health; then beauty; thirdly wealth; and others. A man may have every sense refined and enhanced; he may be a tyrant, free to do as he pleases, and live forever: but you and I would argue that all these things are good for the just, but for the unjust, they are the greatest of evils, especially if life is eternal; it’s less severe if he lives only a short life. If a man has health, wealth, and power, yet is arrogant and unjust, his life would still be miserable; he might be beautiful and rich, and do as he likes, but he would live disgracefully, and if disgracefully, then badly; and if badly, painfully. 'I cannot agree with you on that.' Then may heaven grant us the spirit of agreement, for I am as certain of the truth of my claims as I am that Crete is an island; and if I were a lawmaker, I would impose censorship on the poets and punish them if they claimed that the wicked are happy, or that injustice is beneficial. And these aren’t the only matters in which I would have my citizens speak differently compared to the general population. If I asked Zeus and Apollo, the divine lawmakers of Crete and Sparta, 'Are justice and pleasure the same or different?'—and they said, 'Different'; and I asked again—'Which is happier?'—and they answered—'The pleasurable life,' this would be an answer unworthy of a God to give, so I should rather seek the same question from some legislator. And if he responds 'The pleasurable,' I should ask him, 'O my father, did you not instruct me to live as justly as possible'? and if being just equates to happiness, what is this principle of happiness or good that overshadows pleasure? Is the approval of gods and men to be regarded as good and honorable, even if unpleasant, and their disapproval the opposite? Or is it good and honorable to neither do nor suffer evil, even if it’s not pleasurable? But you cannot make people appreciate what isn’t pleasant, so you must convince them that being just is enjoyable. The role of the legislator is to clarify this confusion. He will demonstrate that the just and the unjust correspond to the pleasurable and the painful, from the perspective of the just person, with the unjust reversed. And which judgment is more accurate? Surely the one from the better soul. For if it isn’t truth, it’s the best and most moral of fictions; and the legislator who aims to spread this beneficial lie might be encouraged by noting that humanity has accepted the tale of Cadmus and the dragon's teeth, thus he can be sure they’ll believe anything, simply considering what fiction will bring about the most good. That the happiest is also the holiest, this idea shall be our theme, to be sung by all three choruses alike. First, the children’s choir will enter, lifting their voices high; then the young men will call upon God Paean to favor the youth and affirm the truth of their words; next will come the chorus of men aged thirty to sixty; and finally, the old men will share stories reinforcing the same virtues, as if with an oracle's voice. 'Whom do you mean by the third chorus?' You remember how I spoke initially about the restless nature of young beings, who jump around and shout chaotically, and I noted that no other animal develops any sense of rhythm; but to us, the Gods provided Apollo and the Muses, along with Dionysus, as our playmates. I have already discussed the first two choruses, and now I must address the third, or Dionysian chorus, which comprises those aged thirty to sixty. 'Let us hear.' We agree (right?) that men, women, and children should always delight themselves with melodies of virtue, and that there should be variety in these melodies, so they don’t grow weary of them? Now the most beautiful and beneficial melodies will be expressed by the elder men, so we cannot excuse them. But how can we encourage them to sing? For a wise elder feels uncomfortable hearing his own voice in private, let alone in public. The only way is to provide them with drinks; this will soften the harshness of age. No one should be allowed to taste wine until they turn eighteen; from eighteen to thirty, they may have a little; but when they reach forty, they may fully embrace the mystery of drinking. This way, they will become gentler and more impressionable; when a person's heart is warm inside, they will be more eager to charm themselves and others with song. And what songs should they sing? 'At Crete and Lacedaemon, we only know choral songs.' Yes, that’s because your lifestyle is military. Your young men are like wild colts roaming in a herd; no one takes an individual colt and trains him separately, trying to give him both statesmanship and soldiering abilities. A person trained this way would be a greater warrior than those Tyrtaeus speaks of, for he would be brave, yet understand that bravery is only the fourth virtue. 'Again, I must say, Stranger, that you criticize our lawgivers.' I don't intend this, my good friend, but I follow the direction of the argument; I’m trying to identify a style of poetry suitable for those who dislike the ordinary type. 'Very good.' In all things that possess charm, this charm is either their goodness, or it carries some accompanying truth or benefit. For instance, in eating and drinking, there’s pleasure as well as benefit, namely health; and in learning, there’s pleasure along with truth. There’s a charm in the imitative arts, as well as a principle of proportion or equality; however, the enjoyment they provide, although innocent, isn’t the measure of their truth. The criterion of pleasure applies only to what lacks any other good or evil, truth or falsehood. But anything with truth must be judged by the standard of truth, so imitation and proportion must be evaluated solely based on their truth. 'Certainly.' And as music is imitative, it shouldn’t be judged based on pleasure; and the Muse we seek is not the Muse of pleasure but of truth, as imitation embodies truth. 'Doubtless.' If so, the judge must understand what is being imitated before deciding on the quality of the imitation, and someone who doesn’t grasp what is true won’t know what is good. 'They won't.' Can anyone truly imitate the human body without knowing the number, proportion, color, or shape of the limbs? 'How could they?' But if we recognize some image or figure as an exact likeness of a person, shouldn’t we also determine whether the image is beautiful or not? 'Absolutely right.' Therefore, the judge of the imitation must first know the original, then the truth, and finally the quality of the execution? 'True.' So let’s not grow weary in striving to align music with the standards of the Muses and truth. The Muses differ from human poets; they never distort or combine rhythms or scales, or muddle instruments and human voices, or confuse the manners and styles of men and women, or of free individuals and slaves, or of rational beings and animals. They do not engage in lesser forms of musical arts, such as the 'sophisticated judgments' that Orpheus refers to derisively. But modern poets separate meter from music, and melody and rhythm from words, and use just the instrument without the voice. The result is that the meaning of the rhythm and the timing is lost. I’m attempting to illustrate how our fifty-year-old choristers should be trained, and what they need to avoid. The opinions of the masses on these subjects are meaningless; those who can only keep time by sheer force cannot evaluate music. 'Impossible.' Therefore, our newly appointed musicians must be trained in music well enough to understand the nature of rhythms and systems; and they should choose those that suit their age and will allow for giving and receiving innocent pleasure. This knowledge extends beyond that of either the poets or their typical listeners. For while the poet must grasp rhythm and music, he doesn’t necessarily need to know whether the imitation is good or not, which was the third requirement of a judge; but our chorus of elders must understand all three if they are to guide the youth.
And now we will resume the original argument, which may be summed up as follows: A convivial meeting is apt to grow tumultuous as the drinking proceeds; every man becomes light-headed, and fancies that he can rule the whole world. 'Doubtless.' And did we not say that the souls of the drinkers, when subdued by wine, are made softer and more malleable at the hand of the legislator? the docility of childhood returns to them. At times however they become too valiant and disorderly, drinking out of their turn, and interrupting one another. And the business of the legislator is to infuse into them that divine fear, which we call shame, in opposition to this disorderly boldness. But in order to discipline them there must be guardians of the law of drinking, and sober generals who shall take charge of the private soldiers; they are as necessary in drinking as in fighting, and he who disobeys these Dionysiac commanders will be equally disgraced. 'Very good.' If a drinking festival were well regulated, men would go away, not as they now do, greater enemies, but better friends. Of the greatest gift of Dionysus I hardly like to speak, lest I should be misunderstood. 'What is that?' According to tradition Dionysus was driven mad by his stepmother Here, and in order to revenge himself he inspired mankind with Bacchic madness. But these are stories which I would rather not repeat. However I do acknowledge that all men are born in an imperfect state, and are at first restless, irrational creatures: this, as you will remember, has been already said by us. 'I remember.' And that Apollo and the Muses and Dionysus gave us harmony and rhythm? 'Very true.' The other story implies that wine was given to punish us and make us mad; but we contend that wine is a balm and a cure; a spring of modesty in the soul, and of health and strength in the body. Again, the work of the chorus is co-extensive with the work of education; rhythm and melody answer to the voice, and the motions of the body correspond to all three, and the sound enters in and educates the soul in virtue. 'Yes.' And the movement which, when pursued as an amusement, is termed dancing, when studied with a view to the improvement of the body, becomes gymnastic. Shall we now proceed to speak of this? 'What Cretan or Lacedaemonian would approve of your omitting gymnastic?' Your question implies assent; and you will easily understand a subject which is familiar to you. Gymnastic is based on the natural tendency of every animal to rapid motion; and man adds a sense of rhythm, which is awakened by music; music and dancing together form the choral art. But before proceeding I must add a crowning word about drinking. Like other pleasures, it has a lawful use; but if a state or an individual is inclined to drink at will, I cannot allow them. I would go further than Crete or Lacedaemon and have the law of the Carthaginians, that no slave of either sex should drink wine at all, and no soldier while he is on a campaign, and no magistrate or officer while he is on duty, and that no one should drink by daylight or on a bridal night. And there are so many other occasions on which wine ought to be prohibited, that there will not be many vines grown or vineyards required in the state.
And now we’ll return to the original argument, which can be summed up like this: A lively gathering tends to get rowdy as drinking continues; everyone becomes a bit tipsy and thinks they can run the entire world. 'Of course.' And didn’t we say that the souls of those drinking, when softened by wine, become more pliable in the hands of the lawmakers? They regain the innocence of youth. However, sometimes they become overly bold and unruly, drinking out of turn and interrupting each other. The task of the lawmakers is to instill in them a divine sense of shame, which counters this reckless bravado. But to keep them in line, there needs to be enforcers of drinking laws and sober leaders who manage the regular folks; they are just as necessary in drinking as in battle, and anyone who disobeys these wine commanders will suffer the same disgrace. 'Alright then.' If a drinking festival were well-organized, people would leave, not as greater enemies, but as closer friends. I'm hesitant to discuss the greatest gift from Dionysus, for fear of being misunderstood. 'What is that?' According to legend, Dionysus was driven mad by his stepmother Hera, and to get back at her, he filled humanity with Bacchic madness. But those are tales I’d rather not repeat. However, I acknowledge that all humans start off in an imperfect state, restless and irrational: this has been mentioned before. 'I remember.' And that Apollo, the Muses, and Dionysus blessed us with harmony and rhythm? 'Very true.' The other story suggests that wine was given to punish us and drive us insane; but we argue that wine is a soothing remedy, a source of modesty for the soul, and of health and strength for the body. Moreover, the work of the chorus is tied to education; rhythm and melody respond to the voice, and bodily movements align with all three, with sound entering in and nurturing virtue in the soul. 'Yes.' The action that we call dancing for fun, when practiced to improve the body, becomes gymnastics. Should we now discuss this? 'What Cretan or Spartan would approve of you skipping gymnastics?' Your question indicates agreement; and you’ll grasp a topic you’re familiar with easily. Gymnastics is based on the natural urge of every creature for quick movement; and humans add a sense of rhythm triggered by music; together, music and dance create the choral art. But before continuing, I must share one final thought on drinking. Like other pleasures, it has a rightful purpose; but if a society or individual is prone to drink indiscriminately, I cannot permit that. I would go beyond the laws of Crete or Sparta and adopt the laws of the Carthaginians, stating that no slave of either gender should drink wine at all, nor should soldiers while on campaign, nor magistrates or officials while on duty, and no one should drink during daylight or on wedding nights. There are many other occasions where wine should be restricted, so there wouldn’t be many vines or vineyards necessary in the state.
BOOK III. If a man wants to know the origin of states and societies, he should behold them from the point of view of time. Thousands of cities have come into being and have passed away again in infinite ages, every one of them having had endless forms of government; and if we can ascertain the cause of these changes in states, that will probably explain their origin. What do you think of ancient traditions about deluges and destructions of mankind, and the preservation of a remnant? 'Every one believes in them.' Then let us suppose the world to have been destroyed by a deluge. The survivors would be hill-shepherds, small sparks of the human race, dwelling in isolation, and unacquainted with the arts and vices of civilization. We may further suppose that the cities on the plain and on the coast have been swept away, and that all inventions, and every sort of knowledge, have perished. 'Why, if all things were as they now are, nothing would have ever been invented. All our famous discoveries have been made within the last thousand years, and many of them are but of yesterday.' Yes, Cleinias, and you must not forget Epimenides, who was really of yesterday; he practised the lesson of moderation and abstinence which Hesiod only preached. 'True.' After the great destruction we may imagine that the earth was a desert, in which there were a herd or two of oxen and a few goats, hardly enough to support those who tended them; while of politics and governments the survivors would know nothing. And out of this state of things have arisen arts and laws, and a great deal of virtue and a great deal of vice; little by little the world has come to be what it is. At first, the few inhabitants would have had a natural fear of descending into the plains; although they would want to have intercourse with one another, they would have a difficulty in getting about, having lost the arts, and having no means of extracting metals from the earth, or of felling timber; for even if they had saved any tools, these would soon have been worn out, and they could get no more until the art of metallurgy had been again revived. Faction and war would be extinguished among them, for being solitary they would incline to be friendly; and having abundance of pasture and plenty of milk and flesh, they would have nothing to quarrel about. We may assume that they had also dwellings, clothes, pottery, for the weaving and plastic arts do not require the use of metals. In those days they were neither poor nor rich, and there was no insolence or injustice among them; for they were of noble natures, and lived up to their principles, and believed what they were told; knowing nothing of land or naval warfare, or of legal practices or party conflicts, they were simpler and more temperate, and also more just than the men of our day. 'Very true.' I am showing whence the need of lawgivers arises, for in primitive ages they neither had nor wanted them. Men lived according to the customs of their fathers, in a simple manner, under a patriarchal government, such as still exists both among Hellenes and barbarians, and is described in Homer as prevailing among the Cyclopes:—
BOOK III. If someone wants to understand the origins of states and societies, they should look at them through the lens of time. Thousands of cities have emerged and disappeared over countless ages, each of them having experienced various forms of government. If we can identify the reasons for these changes in states, it will likely shed light on their origins. What do you think about ancient stories of floods and the destruction of humanity, and the survival of a few? 'Everyone believes in them.' So, let’s imagine that the world was destroyed by a flood. The survivors would be shepherds in the hills, small remnants of humanity living in isolation, unfamiliar with the arts and vices of civilization. We can also picture that the cities in the lowlands and along the coast have been wiped out, and all inventions and knowledge have been lost. 'If everything were as it is now, nothing would have ever been invented. All our great discoveries have happened in the last thousand years, and many of them are recent.' Yes, Cleinias, and you must remember Epimenides, who was indeed quite recent; he practiced moderation and self-restraint that Hesiod only preached. 'That's true.' After the great destruction, we might imagine the earth became a desert, home to a few herds of oxen and some goats, barely enough to sustain those who cared for them; as for politics and governments, the survivors would know nothing about them. From this scenario arose arts and laws, along with plenty of virtue and vice; slowly, the world developed into what it is today. Initially, the few people who lived there would have had a natural fear of venturing into the plains; although they would have wanted to communicate with each other, they’d find it hard to move around since they had lost the skills to extract metals or fell trees. Even if they managed to save some tools, these would quickly wear out, and they wouldn’t be able to replace them until the knowledge of metalworking was rediscovered. Conflicts and wars would be absent, as being isolated would make them inclined toward friendship; with abundant pasture and plenty of milk and meat, there would be nothing to argue over. We can assume they had homes, clothing, and pottery, as weaving and pottery don’t require metals. In those times, they were neither poor nor rich, and there was no arrogance or injustice among them; they were noble in character, lived by their values, and believed what they learned. Unfamiliar with land or naval warfare, legal systems, or political disputes, they were simpler, more temperate, and also more just than people today. 'That’s very true.' I’m illustrating why the need for lawmakers arises, for in early times they neither had nor desired them. People lived according to their fathers' traditions, in a straightforward way, under a patriarchal system that still exists among both Greeks and non-Greeks, as described in Homer regarding the Cyclopes:—
'They have no laws, and they dwell in rocks or on the tops of mountains, and every one is the judge of his wife and children, and they do not trouble themselves about one another.'
'They have no laws, and they live in caves or on the tops of mountains, and each person is the judge of their spouse and children, and they don’t concern themselves with one another.'
'That is a charming poet of yours, though I know little of him, for in Crete foreign poets are not much read.' 'But he is well known in Sparta, though he describes Ionian rather than Dorian manners, and he seems to take your view of primitive society.' May we not suppose that government arose out of the union of single families who survived the destruction, and were under the rule of patriarchs, because they had originally descended from a single father and mother? 'That is very probable.' As time went on, men increased in number, and tilled the ground, living in a common habitation, which they protected by walls against wild beasts; but the several families retained the laws and customs which they separately received from their first parents. They would naturally like their own laws better than any others, and would be already formed by them when they met in a common society: thus legislation imperceptibly began among them. For in the next stage the associated families would appoint plenipotentiaries, who would select and present to the chiefs those of all their laws which they thought best. The chiefs in turn would make a further selection, and would thus become the lawgivers of the state, which they would form into an aristocracy or a monarchy. 'Probably.' In the third stage various other forms of government would arise. This state of society is described by Homer in speaking of the foundation of Dardania, which, he says,
'You have a charming poet, even though I know little about him since foreign poets aren’t really read in Crete.' 'But he’s well known in Sparta, even if he writes about Ionian rather than Dorian customs, and he seems to share your perspective on primitive society.' Can we not assume that government started from the unification of individual families that survived destruction and were led by patriarchs, because they originally came from one father and mother? 'That seems very likely.' As time passed, the population grew, and they farmed the land, living in a shared space protected by walls against wild animals; however, the different families kept the laws and customs they inherited from their original parents. They would naturally prefer their own laws over others and would already be shaped by them when they formed a common society: so, legislation gradually began among them. In the next phase, the united families would elect representatives who would choose and present the best laws to the leaders. The leaders would then make another selection, becoming the lawmakers of the state, which they would organize into an aristocracy or a monarchy. 'That makes sense.' In the third phase, various other forms of government would emerge. This societal structure is depicted by Homer when he talks about the founding of Dardania, which he says,
'was built at the foot of many-fountained Ida, for Ilium, the city of the plain, as yet was not.'
'was built at the base of many-fountained Ida, for Ilium, the city of the plain, did not exist yet.'
Here, as also in the account of the Cyclopes, the poet by some divine inspiration has attained truth. But to proceed with our tale. Ilium was built in a wide plain, on a low hill, which was surrounded by streams descending from Ida. This shows that many ages must have passed; for the men who remembered the deluge would never have placed their city at the mercy of the waters. When mankind began to multiply, many other cities were built in similar situations. These cities carried on a ten years' war against Troy, by sea as well as land, for men were ceasing to be afraid of the sea, and, in the meantime, while the chiefs of the army were at Troy, their homes fell into confusion. The youth revolted and refused to receive their own fathers; deaths, murders, exiles ensued. Under the new name of Dorians, which they received from their chief Dorieus, the exiles returned: the rest of the story is part of the history of Sparta.
Here, just like in the story of the Cyclopes, the poet, through some divine inspiration, has reached the truth. But let's get back to our story. Ilium was built in a wide valley, on a low hill, surrounded by streams coming down from Mount Ida. This indicates that many years must have passed; the people who remembered the flood would never have built their city so close to water. As humanity began to grow, many other cities were established in similar locations. These cities fought a ten-year war against Troy, both by sea and land, as people were starting to lose their fear of the ocean. Meanwhile, while the leaders of the army were at Troy, their homes fell into chaos. The young people revolted and refused to accept their own fathers; deaths, murders, and exiles followed. Under the new name of Dorians, which they got from their leader Dorieus, the exiles returned: the rest of the story is part of the history of Sparta.
Thus, after digressing from the subject of laws into music and drinking, we return to the settlement of Sparta, which in laws and institutions is the sister of Crete. We have seen the rise of a first, second, and third state, during the lapse of ages; and now we arrive at a fourth state, and out of the comparison of all four we propose to gather the nature of laws and governments, and the changes which may be desirable in them. 'If,' replies the Spartan, 'our new discussion is likely to be as good as the last, I would think the longest day too short for such an employment.'
So, after diverting from laws to talk about music and drinking, let's get back to Sparta, which shares laws and institutions with Crete. We've observed the emergence of a first, second, and third government over the ages; now we come to a fourth. By comparing all four, we aim to understand the nature of laws and governments, along with any changes that might be beneficial. The Spartan responds, “If our new discussion is likely to be as good as the last, I’d say even the longest day wouldn’t be long enough for such a task.”
Let us imagine the time when Lacedaemon, and Argos, and Messene were all subject, Megillus, to your ancestors. Afterwards, they distributed the army into three portions, and made three cities—Argos, Messene, Lacedaemon. 'Yes.' Temenus was the king of Argos, Cresphontes of Messene, Procles and Eurysthenes ruled at Lacedaemon. 'Just so.' And they all swore to assist any one of their number whose kingdom was subverted. 'Yes.' But did we not say that kingdoms or governments can only be subverted by themselves? 'That is true.' Yes, and the truth is now proved by facts: there were certain conditions upon which the three kingdoms were to assist one another; the government was to be mild and the people obedient, and the kings and people were to unite in assisting either of the two others when they were wronged. This latter condition was a great security. 'Clearly.' Such a provision is in opposition to the common notion that the lawgiver should make only such laws as the people like; but we say that he should rather be like a physician, prepared to effect a cure even at the cost of considerable suffering. 'Very true.' The early lawgivers had another great advantage—they were saved from the reproach which attends a division of land and the abolition of debts. No one could quarrel with the Dorians for dividing the territory, and they had no debts of long standing. 'They had not.' Then what was the reason why their legislation signally failed? For there were three kingdoms, two of them quickly lost their original constitution. That is a question which we cannot refuse to answer, if we mean to proceed with our old man's game of enquiring into laws and institutions. And the Dorian institutions are more worthy of consideration than any other, having been evidently intended to be a protection not only to the Peloponnese, but to all the Hellenes against the Barbarians. For the capture of Troy by the Achaeans had given great offence to the Assyrians, of whose empire it then formed part, and they were likely to retaliate. Accordingly the royal Heraclid brothers devised their military constitution, which was organised on a far better plan than the old Trojan expedition; and the Dorians themselves were far superior to the Achaeans, who had taken part in that expedition, and had been conquered by them. Such a scheme, undertaken by men who had shared with one another toils and dangers, sanctioned by the Delphian oracle, under the guidance of the Heraclidae, seemed to have a promise of permanence. 'Naturally.' Yet this has not proved to be the case. Instead of the three being one, they have always been at war; had they been united, in accordance with the original intention, they would have been invincible.
Let’s picture the time when Lacedaemon, Argos, and Messene were all under your ancestors, Megillus. Later, they split the army into three parts and established three cities—Argos, Messene, Lacedaemon. 'Right.' Temenus was the king of Argos, Cresphontes ruled Messene, and Procles and Eurysthenes were in charge at Lacedaemon. 'Exactly.' They all took an oath to help any of them whose kingdom was overthrown. 'True.' But didn’t we say that kingdoms or governments can only be brought down by themselves? 'That’s correct.' Yes, and this truth has been proven by facts: there were specific conditions on which the three kingdoms would support each other; the government had to be gentle, the people obedient, and the kings and citizens had to work together to help either of the other two when they were wronged. This last condition was a significant safeguard. 'Clearly.' Such a provision goes against the common belief that a lawmaker should only create laws that the people agree with; we argue that he should be like a doctor, willing to make tough decisions even if they cause significant pain. 'Very true.' The early lawmakers had another major advantage—they were free from the blame associated with land division and debt cancellation. No one could accuse the Dorians of dividing the land, and they had no long-standing debts. 'That’s true.' Then why did their legislation notably fail? With three kingdoms, two of them quickly lost their original structure. That’s a question we can’t ignore if we want to continue our discussion about laws and institutions. The Dorian institutions deserve more attention than others, as they were clearly meant to protect not just the Peloponnese but also all Hellenes against the Barbarians. The Achaeans’ capture of Troy had greatly upset the Assyrians, whose empire included Troy, and they were likely to retaliate. So, the royal Heraclid brothers devised their military constitution, which was organized in a much better way than the old Trojan campaign; and the Dorians themselves were much stronger than the Achaeans who had participated in that expedition and had been defeated by them. Such a plan, created by men who had shared struggles and dangers, endorsed by the Delphian oracle, and guided by the Heraclidae, seemed to promise stability. 'Naturally.' Yet, that hasn’t been the case. Instead of being one, they have always been at war; had they been united, as originally intended, they would have been unbeatable.
And what caused their ruin? Did you ever observe that there are beautiful things of which men often say, 'What wonders they would have effected if rightly used?' and yet, after all, this may be a mistake. And so I say of the Heraclidae and their expedition, which I may perhaps have been justified in admiring, but which nevertheless suggests to me the general reflection,—'What wonders might not strength and military resources have accomplished, if the possessor had only known how to use them!' For consider: if the generals of the army had only known how to arrange their forces, might they not have given their subjects everlasting freedom, and the power of doing what they would in all the world? 'Very true.' Suppose a person to express his admiration of wealth or rank, does he not do so under the idea that by the help of these he can attain his desires? All men wish to obtain the control of all things, and they are always praying for what they desire. 'Certainly.' And we ask for our friends what they ask for themselves. 'Yes.' Dear is the son to the father, and yet the son, if he is young and foolish, will often pray to obtain what the father will pray that he may not obtain. 'True.' And when the father, in the heat of youth or the dotage of age, makes some rash prayer, the son, like Hippolytus, may have reason to pray that the word of his father may be ineffectual. 'You mean that a man should pray to have right desires, before he prays that his desires may be fulfilled; and that wisdom should be the first object of our prayers?' Yes; and you will remember my saying that wisdom should be the principal aim of the legislator; but you said that defence in war came first. And I replied, that there were four virtues, whereas you acknowledged one only—courage, and not wisdom which is the guide of all the rest. And I repeat—in jest if you like, but I am willing that you should receive my words in earnest—that 'the prayer of a fool is full of danger.' I will prove to you, if you will allow me, that the ruin of those states was not caused by cowardice or ignorance in war, but by ignorance of human affairs. 'Pray proceed: our attention will show better than compliments that we prize your words.' I maintain that ignorance is, and always has been, the ruin of states; wherefore the legislator should seek to banish it from the state; and the greatest ignorance is the love of what is known to be evil, and the hatred of what is known to be good; this is the last and greatest conflict of pleasure and reason in the soul. I say the greatest, because affecting the greater part of the soul; for the passions are in the individual what the people are in a state. And when they become opposed to reason or law, and instruction no longer avails—that is the last and greatest ignorance of states and men. 'I agree.' Let this, then, be our first principle:—That the citizen who does not know how to choose between good and evil must not have authority, although he possess great mental gifts, and many accomplishments; for he is really a fool. On the other hand, he who has this knowledge may be unable either to read or swim; nevertheless, he shall be counted wise and permitted to rule. For how can there be wisdom where there is no harmony?—the wise man is the saviour, and he who is devoid of wisdom is the destroyer of states and households. There are rulers and there are subjects in states. And the first claim to rule is that of parents to rule over their children; the second, that of the noble to rule over the ignoble; thirdly, the elder must govern the younger; in the fourth place, the slave must obey his master; fifthly, there is the power of the stronger, which the poet Pindar declares to be according to nature; sixthly, there is the rule of the wiser, which is also according to nature, as I must inform Pindar, if he does not know, and is the rule of law over obedient subjects. 'Most true.' And there is a seventh kind of rule which the Gods love,—in this the ruler is elected by lot.
And what led to their downfall? Have you ever noticed that there are amazing things that people often say, 'Imagine what they could have accomplished if they had been used properly?' and yet, that might just be a misconception. And so I think about the Heraclidae and their mission, which I might have had reason to admire, but it still prompts me to reflect broadly: 'What incredible things might not strength and military resources have achieved, if only the person in charge knew how to use them properly!' Consider this: if the generals had only known how to organize their forces, couldn't they have given their citizens lasting freedom and the power to pursue their desires in the world? 'Very true.' When someone praises wealth or status, isn't it because they believe that with those, they can fulfill their wishes? Everyone wants to control everything and constantly hopes for what they desire. 'Certainly.' We wish for our friends what they wish for themselves. 'Yes.' A son is dear to his father, but sometimes the son, if he is young and reckless, will pray for something that the father hopes he won't get. 'True.' And when the father, in the heat of youth or the frailty of old age, makes an impulsive prayer, the son, like Hippolytus, might pray for his father's words to not come true. 'You mean that a person should pray for the right desires before asking for their desires to be met; and that wisdom should be our main focus in prayer?' Yes; and you'll recall my point that wisdom should be the main goal of lawmakers; but you argued that defense in war should come first. I countered that there are four virtues, while you only recognized one—courage, neglecting wisdom, which guides all the others. And I reiterate—in jest if you like, but I hope you take my words seriously—that 'a fool's prayer is very risky.' I'll prove to you, if you'll let me, that the downfall of those states wasn’t due to cowardice or ignorance in warfare, but rather ignorance of human affairs. 'Please continue: our attention will express more than compliments that we value your insights.' I argue that ignorance has always led to the destruction of states; therefore, lawmakers should strive to eliminate it from society; and the worst ignorance is the love of what is clearly harmful and the hatred of what is evidently good; this is the ultimate and greatest struggle of pleasure and reason within the soul. I call it the greatest because it impacts most of the soul; for passions in a person reflect what the people are in a society. And when they oppose reason or law, and guidance no longer has an effect—that is the ultimate and greatest ignorance of societies and individuals. 'I agree.' Let this be our first principle:—A citizen who cannot distinguish between good and evil should not hold authority, no matter how intelligent or accomplished they might be; for they are truly a fool. Conversely, someone who knows how to discern may not be able to read or swim; however, they will still be regarded as wise and trusted to lead. For how can there be wisdom where there is no alignment?—the wise person is the protector, and the one lacking wisdom is the destroyer of societies and families. There are leaders and there are followers in societies. The primary claim to leadership is that of parents over their children; secondly, the noble over the common; thirdly, the elder over the younger; fourthly, the slave must obey his master; fifthly, there is the strength of the powerful, which the poet Pindar says is in accordance with nature; sixthly, there's the governance of the wiser, which also aligns with nature, as I need to inform Pindar, if he is unaware, and it constitutes the law's authority over compliant citizens. 'Most true.' And there is a seventh type of leadership that the Gods favor—in this, leaders are chosen by lot.
Then, now, we playfully say to him who fancies that it is easy to make laws:—You see, legislator, the many and inconsistent claims to authority; here is a spring of troubles which you must stay. And first of all you must help us to consider how the kings of Argos and Messene in olden days destroyed their famous empire—did they forget the saying of Hesiod, that 'the half is better than the whole'? And do we suppose that the ignorance of this truth is less fatal to kings than to peoples? 'Probably the evil is increased by their way of life.' The kings of those days transgressed the laws and violated their oaths. Their deeds were not in harmony with their words, and their folly, which seemed to them wisdom, was the ruin of the state. And how could the legislator have prevented this evil?—the remedy is easy to see now, but was not easy to foresee at the time. 'What is the remedy?' The institutions of Sparta may teach you, Megillus. Wherever there is excess, whether the vessel has too large a sail, or the body too much food, or the mind too much power, there destruction is certain. And similarly, a man who possesses arbitrary power is soon corrupted, and grows hateful to his dearest friends. In order to guard against this evil, the God who watched over Sparta gave you two kings instead of one, that they might balance one another; and further to lower the pulse of your body politic, some human wisdom, mingled with divine power, tempered the strength and self-sufficiency of youth with the moderation of age in the institution of your senate. A third saviour bridled your rising and swelling power by ephors, whom he assimilated to officers elected by lot: and thus the kingly power was preserved, and became the preserver of all the rest. Had the constitution been arranged by the original legislators, not even the portion of Aristodemus would have been saved; for they had no political experience, and imagined that a youthful spirit invested with power could be restrained by oaths. Now that God has instructed us in the arts of legislation, there is no merit in seeing all this, or in learning wisdom after the event. But if the coming danger could have been foreseen, and the union preserved, then no Persian or other enemy would have dared to attack Hellas; and indeed there was not so much credit to us in defeating the enemy, as discredit in our disloyalty to one another. For of the three cities one only fought on behalf of Hellas; and of the two others, Argos refused her aid; and Messenia was actually at war with Sparta: and if the Lacedaemonians and Athenians had not united, the Hellenes would have been absorbed in the Persian empire, and dispersed among the barbarians. We make these reflections upon past and present legislators because we desire to find out what other course could have been followed. We were saying just now, that a state can only be free and wise and harmonious when there is a balance of powers. There are many words by which we express the aims of the legislator,—temperance, wisdom, friendship; but we need not be disturbed by the variety of expression,—these words have all the same meaning. 'I should like to know at what in your opinion the legislator should aim.' Hear me, then. There are two mother forms of states—one monarchy, and the other democracy: the Persians have the first in the highest form, and the Athenians the second; and no government can be well administered which does not include both. There was a time when both the Persians and Athenians had more the character of a constitutional state than they now have. In the days of Cyrus the Persians were freemen as well as lords of others, and their soldiers were free and equal, and the kings used and honoured all the talent which they could find, and so the nation waxed great, because there was freedom and friendship and communion of soul. But Cyrus, though a wise general, never troubled himself about the education of his family. He was a soldier from his youth upward, and left his children who were born in the purple to be educated by women, who humoured and spoilt them. 'A rare education, truly!' Yes, such an education as princesses who had recently grown rich might be expected to give them in a country where the men were solely occupied with warlike pursuits. 'Likely enough.' Their father had possessions of men and animals, and never considered that the race to whom he was about to make them over had been educated in a very different school, not like the Persian shepherd, who was well able to take care of himself and his own. He did not see that his children had been brought up in the Median fashion, by women and eunuchs. The end was that one of the sons of Cyrus slew the other, and lost the kingdom by his own folly. Observe, again, that Darius, who restored the kingdom, had not received a royal education. He was one of the seven chiefs, and when he came to the throne he divided the empire into seven provinces; and he made equal laws, and implanted friendship among the people. Hence his subjects were greatly attached to him, and cheerfully helped him to extend his empire. Next followed Xerxes, who had received the same royal education as Cambyses, and met with a similar fate. The reflection naturally occurs to us—How could Darius, with all his experience, have made such a mistake! The ruin of Xerxes was not a mere accident, but the evil life which is generally led by the sons of very rich and royal persons; and this is what the legislator has seriously to consider. Justly may the Lacedaemonians be praised for not giving special honour to birth or wealth; for such advantages are not to be highly esteemed without virtue, and not even virtue is to be esteemed unless it be accompanied by temperance. 'Explain.' No one would like to live in the same house with a courageous man who had no control over himself, nor with a clever artist who was a rogue. Nor can justice and wisdom ever be separated from temperance. But considering these qualities with reference to the honour and dishonour which is to be assigned to them in states, would you say, on the other hand, that temperance, if existing without the other virtues in the soul, is worth anything or nothing? 'I cannot tell.' You have answered well. It would be absurd to speak of temperance as belonging to the class of honourable or of dishonourable qualities, because all other virtues in their various classes require temperance to be added to them; having the addition, they are honoured not in proportion to that, but to their own excellence. And ought not the legislator to determine these classes? 'Certainly.' Suppose then that, without going into details, we make three great classes of them. Most honourable are the goods of the soul, always assuming temperance as a condition of them; secondly, those of the body; thirdly, external possessions. The legislator who puts them in another order is doing an unholy and unpatriotic thing.
Then, we jokingly say to the legislator who thinks making laws is easy: You see, there are many conflicting claims to authority, and that’s where your problems begin. First, help us think about how the kings of Argos and Messene ruined their once-great empire—did they forget Hesiod's saying that "the half is better than the whole"? Do we really think that ignoring this truth is any less dangerous for kings than for ordinary people? "Probably, their way of life made things worse." Those kings broke the laws and violated their oaths. Their actions didn’t match their words, and their foolishness, which they thought was wisdom, led to the state's downfall. How could the legislator have stopped this? The solution seems obvious now, but it wasn’t apparent back then. "What’s the solution?" The Spartans can show you, Megillus. Excess in anything—whether it’s a ship with too large a sail, a body having too much food, or a mind wielding too much power—guarantees destruction. Similarly, a person given unchecked power quickly becomes corrupted and disliked by their closest friends. To prevent this, the God who watched over Sparta appointed two kings instead of one, so they could balance each other out. Plus, to lower the intensity of your political system, some human wisdom, mixed with divine insight, balanced the strength and self-reliance of youth with the moderation of age in establishing your senate. A third safeguard kept your rising power in check with ephors, similar to officers chosen by lot, preserving the royal authority while ensuring the well-being of everyone else. Had the original legislators arranged the constitution, not even the share of Aristodemus would have survived; they lacked political knowledge and believed that a young person with power could be restrained by oaths. Now that God has taught us about legislation, there’s no achievement in recognizing all this or in gaining wisdom after the fact. However, if we could have predicted the upcoming danger and maintained unity, no Persian or other enemy would have dared to attack Greece. In fact, we don’t deserve much credit for defeating the enemy but rather should be ashamed of our disloyalty to one another. Of the three cities, only one fought for Greece; Argos refused to help, and Messenia was at war with Sparta. If the Lacedaemonians and Athenians hadn’t come together, the Greeks would have been absorbed into the Persian empire and scattered among the barbarians. We reflect on past and present legislators because we want to figure out what other paths could have been taken. We noted earlier that a state can only be free, wise, and harmonious when there’s a balance of powers. There are many terms we use to express a legislator’s goals—temperance, wisdom, friendship—but all these words mean the same thing. "I’d like to know what you think the legislator should aim for." Listen, then. There are two main types of states—monarchy and democracy. The Persians have the first in its highest form, while the Athenians have the second; no government can function well without both. There was a time when both the Persians and Athenians resembled more of a constitutional state than they do now. During Cyrus’s time, the Persians were free as well as rulers over others; their soldiers were free and equal, and the kings respected and utilized all the talents they could find, allowing the nation to thrive due to freedom, friendship, and a shared spirit. However, Cyrus, though a wise general, didn’t concern himself with educating his family. He was a soldier from youth and left his royal children to be raised by women who coddled and spoiled them. "What a unique education, indeed!" Yes, it was exactly the kind of education you'd expect from princesses who had just become wealthy in a land where men were solely focused on warfare. "That makes sense." Their father owned both people and animals and never considered that the group he was about to hand them over to had been raised in a completely different environment, unlike the Persian shepherd who took care of himself and his possessions. He didn’t realize that his children had been raised in a Median way, surrounded by women and eunuchs. In the end, one of Cyrus's sons killed the other and lost the kingdom due to his own foolishness. Additionally, Darius, who restored the kingdom, did not receive a royal education. He was one of the seven leaders, and when he ascended to the throne, he divided the empire into seven provinces; he enacted fair laws and fostered friendship among the people. As a result, his subjects were very loyal to him and willingly helped him expand his empire. Then came Xerxes, who had the same royal education as Cambyses and faced a similar downfall. It naturally makes us wonder—How could Darius, with all his experience, have made such a mistake? Xerxes’s destruction wasn’t just a coincidence; it was the result of the poor choices often made by the sons of extremely wealthy and royal people, which is something the legislator ought to think seriously about. The Lacedaemonians deserve praise for not giving special privilege to birth or wealth; such advantages shouldn’t be valued without virtue, and even virtue shouldn't be valued unless it comes with temperance. "Please elaborate." No one wants to live with a brave person who lacks self-control or with a clever artist who is dishonest. Justice and wisdom can never truly be detached from temperance. But when we assess these qualities regarding the honor and dishonor they receive within states, would you say that temperance, if it exists without the other virtues in a person’s soul, holds any value? "I’m not sure." You’ve answered that well. It would be ridiculous to classify temperance among honorable or dishonorable traits because all the other virtues, in their various categories, require temperance to enhance them; when temperance is added, they are honored not based on that, but based on their own value. Shouldn’t the legislator set these categories? "Absolutely." Let’s, without going into details, create three major categories. The most honorable are the goods of the soul, always considering temperance as a prerequisite; next are the goods of the body; lastly, external possessions. A legislator who arranges them differently is acting in an unholy and unpatriotic manner.
These remarks were suggested by the history of the Persian kings; and to them I will now return. The ruin of their empire was caused by the loss of freedom and the growth of despotism; all community of feeling disappeared. Hatred and spoliation took the place of friendship; the people no longer fought heartily for their masters; the rulers, finding their myriads useless on the field of battle, resorted to mercenaries as their only salvation, and were thus compelled by their circumstances to proclaim the stupidest of falsehoods—that virtue is a trifle in comparison of money.
These comments were inspired by the history of the Persian kings, and I will now return to them. The downfall of their empire was due to the loss of freedom and the rise of despotism; all sense of community disappeared. Hatred and plunder replaced friendship; the people no longer fought fiercely for their leaders; the rulers, realizing their vast armies were useless in battle, turned to mercenaries as their only option for survival. They were thus forced by their circumstances to declare the most foolish of lies—that virtue is insignificant compared to money.
But enough of the Persians: a different lesson is taught by the Athenians, whose example shows that a limited freedom is far better than an unlimited. Ancient Athens, at the time of the Persian invasion, had such a limited freedom. The people were divided into four classes, according to the amount of their property, and the universal love of order, as well as the fear of the approaching host, made them obedient and willing citizens. For Darius had sent Datis and Artaphernes, commanding them under pain of death to subjugate the Eretrians and Athenians. A report, whether true or not, came to Athens that all the Eretrians had been 'netted'; and the Athenians in terror sent all over Hellas for assistance. None came to their relief except the Lacedaemonians, and they arrived a day too late, when the battle of Marathon had been already fought. In process of time Xerxes came to the throne, and the Athenians heard of nothing but the bridge over the Hellespont, and the canal of Athos, and the innumerable host and fleet. They knew that these were intended to avenge the defeat of Marathon. Their case seemed desperate, for there was no Hellene likely to assist them by land, and at sea they were attacked by more than a thousand vessels;—their only hope, however slender, was in victory; so they relied upon themselves and upon the Gods. Their common danger, and the influence of their ancient constitution, greatly tended to promote harmony among them. Reverence and fear—that fear which the coward never knows—made them fight for their altars and their homes, and saved them from being dispersed all over the world. 'Your words, Athenian, are worthy of your country.' And you Megillus, who have inherited the virtues of your ancestors, are worthy to hear them. Let me ask you to take the moral of my tale. The Persians have lost their liberty in absolute slavery, and we in absolute freedom. In ancient times the Athenian people were not the masters, but the servants of the laws. 'Of what laws?' In the first place, there were laws about music, and the music was of various kinds: there was one kind which consisted of hymns, another of lamentations; there was also the paean and the dithyramb, and the so-called 'laws' (nomoi) or strains, which were played upon the harp. The regulation of such matters was not left to the whistling and clapping of the crowd; there was silence while the judges decided, and the boys, and the audience in general, were kept in order by raps of a stick. But after a while there arose a new race of poets, men of genius certainly, however careless of musical truth and propriety, who made pleasure the only criterion of excellence. That was a test which the spectators could apply for themselves; the whole audience, instead of being mute, became vociferous, and a theatrocracy took the place of an aristocracy. Could the judges have been free, there would have been no great harm done; a musical democracy would have been well enough—but conceit has been our ruin. Everybody knows everything, and is ready to say anything; the age of reverence is gone, and the age of irreverence and licentiousness has succeeded. 'Most true.' And with this freedom comes disobedience to rulers, parents, elders,—in the latter days to the law also; the end returns to the beginning, and the old Titanic nature reappears—men have no regard for the Gods or for oaths; and the evils of the human race seem as if they would never cease. Whither are we running away? Once more we must pull up the argument with bit and curb, lest, as the proverb says, we should fall off our ass. 'Good.' Our purpose in what we have been saying is to prove that the legislator ought to aim at securing for a state three things—freedom, friendship, wisdom. And we chose two states;—one was the type of freedom, and the other of despotism; and we showed that when in a mean they attained their highest perfection. In a similar spirit we spoke of the Dorian expedition, and of the settlement on the hills and in the plains of Troy; and of music, and the use of wine, and of all that preceded.
But enough about the Persians: the Athenians teach us a different lesson, showing that limited freedom is far better than unlimited freedom. In ancient Athens, during the Persian invasion, there was a form of limited freedom. The population was divided into four classes based on their wealth, and their love for order, combined with the fear of the approaching enemy, led them to be obedient and committed citizens. Darius had sent Datis and Artaphernes, ordering them under threat of death to conquer the Eretrians and Athenians. A report, true or not, reached Athens claiming that all the Eretrians had been captured; in fear, the Athenians called for help from across Hellas. The Lacedaemonians were the only ones who came, but they arrived a day too late, after the battle of Marathon had already been fought. Eventually, Xerxes ascended the throne, and all the Athenians heard about was the bridge over the Hellespont and the canal of Athos, along with the countless army and fleet. They realized these forces were meant to avenge the defeat at Marathon. Their situation felt hopeless, as no Greeks were likely to aid them on land, and they faced an attack from over a thousand ships at sea; yet their only hope, however slight, lay in victory, so they relied on themselves and the gods. The common threat and the influence of their old constitution fostered unity among them. Respect and fear—that true fear known only to the brave—motivated them to fight for their temples and homes and prevented them from being scattered around the world. "Your words, Athenian, reflect your homeland's values." And you, Megillus, who have inherited the virtues of your ancestors, are worthy to hear them. Let me share the lesson from this story. The Persians lost their freedom to absolute slavery, while we lost it to absolute freedom. In ancient times, the Athenian people were not the rulers, but the followers of the laws. "Which laws?" Firstly, there were laws about music, which included various types: hymns, laments, paeans, and dithyrambs, along with the strains known as 'laws' (nomoi) played on the harp. The management of these matters wasn't left to the crowd's whistling or clapping; judges would decide in silence, while boys and the audience were kept in line with the raps of a stick. Eventually, a new breed of poets emerged—undoubtedly talented but indifferent to musical truth and appropriate standards—who made pleasure their only measure of excellence. This was a standard that the audience could judge for themselves; rather than being quiet, they became loud, and a "theatrocracy" replaced the aristocracy. If the judges had been free, it wouldn’t have been a major issue; a musical democracy could have been acceptable—but arrogance led to our downfall. Everyone thinks they know everything and is quick to speak; the age of respect has vanished, replaced by irreverence and chaos. "That’s absolutely true." And with this freedom comes disobedience to leaders, parents, elders—and in recent times, even to the law; we return to our original state, with old, chaotic tendencies reemerging—people disregard the gods and oaths, and the problems of humanity seem endless. Where are we heading? Once again, we need to gain control over the argument, lest we, as the saying goes, fall off our donkey. "Agreed." Our goal in this discussion is to demonstrate that a lawmaker should strive to secure three things for a state: freedom, friendship, and wisdom. We highlighted two types of states—one representing freedom and the other despotism—and showed that both achieved their greatest potential when in balance. We also discussed the Dorian expedition and the settlement in the hills and plains of Troy, along with music, the use of wine, and everything that preceded it.
And now, has our discussion been of any use? 'Yes, stranger; for by a singular coincidence the Cretans are about to send out a colony, of which the settlement has been confided to the Cnosians. Ten commissioners, of whom I am one, are to give laws to the colonists, and we may give any which we please—Cretan or foreign. And therefore let us make a selection from what has been said, and then proceed with the construction of the state.' Very good: I am quite at your service. 'And I too,' says Megillus.
And now, has our conversation been helpful? 'Yes, stranger; because by a strange coincidence, the Cretans are about to send out a colony, and the Cnosians have been entrusted with the settlement. Ten commissioners, including myself, will be in charge of creating laws for the colonists, and we can choose any laws we want—Cretan or foreign. So let's take a pick from what we've discussed and then start building the state.'Sounds good: I'm here to help. 'Me too,' says Megillus.
BOOK IV. And now, what is this city? I do not want to know what is to be the name of the place (for some accident,—a river or a local deity, will determine that), but what the situation is, whether maritime or inland. 'The city will be about eleven miles from the sea.' Are there harbours? 'Excellent.' And is the surrounding country self-supporting? 'Almost.' Any neighbouring states? 'No; and that is the reason for choosing the place, which has been deserted from time immemorial.' And is there a fair proportion of hill and plain and wood? 'Like Crete in general, more hill than plain.' Then there is some hope for your citizens; had the city been on the sea, and dependent for support on other countries, no human power could have preserved you from corruption. Even the distance of eleven miles is hardly enough. For the sea, although an agreeable, is a dangerous companion, and a highway of strange morals and manners as well as of commerce. But as the country is only moderately fertile there will be no great export trade and no great returns of gold and silver, which are the ruin of states. Is there timber for ship-building? 'There is no pine, nor much cypress; and very little stone-pine or plane wood for the interior of ships.' That is good. 'Why?' Because the city will not be able to imitate the bad ways of her enemies. 'What is the bearing of that remark?' To explain my meaning, I would ask you to remember what we said about the Cretan laws, that they had an eye to war only; whereas I maintained that they ought to have included all virtue. And I hope that you in your turn will retaliate upon me if I am false to my own principle. For I consider that the lawgiver should go straight to the mark of virtue and justice, and disregard wealth and every other good when separated from virtue. What further I mean, when I speak of the imitation of enemies, I will illustrate by the story of Minos, if our Cretan friend will allow me to mention it. Minos, who was a great sea-king, imposed upon the Athenians a cruel tribute, for in those days they were not a maritime power; they had no timber for ship-building, and therefore they could not 'imitate their enemies'; and better far, as I maintain, would it have been for them to have lost many times over the lives which they devoted to the tribute than to have turned soldiers into sailors. Naval warfare is not a very praiseworthy art; men should not be taught to leap on shore, and then again to hurry back to their ships, or to find specious excuses for throwing away their arms; bad customs ought not to be gilded with fine words. And retreat is always bad, as we are taught in Homer, when he introduces Odysseus, setting forth to Agamemnon the danger of ships being at hand when soldiers are disposed to fly. An army of lions trained in such ways would fly before a herd of deer. Further, a city which owes its preservation to a crowd of pilots and oarsmen and other undeserving persons, cannot bestow rewards of honour properly; and this is the ruin of states. 'Still, in Crete we say that the battle of Salamis was the salvation of Hellas.' Such is the prevailing opinion. But I and Megillus say that the battle of Marathon began the deliverance, and that the battle of Plataea completed it; for these battles made men better, whereas the battles of Salamis and Artemisium made them no better. And we further affirm that mere existence is not the great political good of individuals or states, but the continuance of the best existence. 'Certainly.' Let us then endeavour to follow this principle in colonization and legislation.
BOOK IV. So, what's this city like? I'm not interested in its name (that will be decided by something random—a river or a local god), but rather its location: is it by the sea or inland? 'The city will be about eleven miles from the coast.' Are there harbors? 'Yes, they’re excellent.' Is the surrounding area self-sufficient? 'Almost.' Are there any neighboring states? 'No; that's why this spot was chosen—it’s been empty for ages.' Is there a good mix of hills, plains, and woods? 'Like Crete overall, more hills than plains.' That gives some hope for your citizens; if the city were on the coast and relying on other places for support, no human force could stop it from going corrupt. Even being eleven miles away isn’t really enough. The sea, though nice, can be a treacherous companion, bringing not just trade but also strange morals and customs. But since the land isn’t super fertile, there won’t be a significant export business or a huge influx of gold and silver, which can lead to a state’s downfall. Is there timber for building ships? 'There’s no pine, not much cypress, and very little stone-pine or plane wood for the insides of ships.' That’s a good thing. 'Why's that?' Because the city won’t be able to copy the bad habits of its enemies. 'What do you mean by that?' To clarify, remember what we discussed about Cretan laws focusing solely on war; I believe they should also cover all aspects of virtue. I hope you’ll hold me accountable if I stray from this principle. I see the lawmaker’s job as aiming directly for virtue and justice, ignoring wealth and any other good that stands apart from virtue. As for my point about copying enemies, let’s use Minos as an example, if our Cretan friend permits me to do so. Minos, a powerful sea king, forced the Athenians to pay a harsh tribute since they were not a naval power back then; they lacked shipbuilding timber and thus couldn’t 'copy their enemies.' I argue it would’ve been far better for them to lose countless lives in tribute than to turn their soldiers into sailors. Naval warfare isn’t a commendable pursuit; people shouldn’t be trained to jump ashore and rush back to their ships or to find flimsy excuses to drop their arms; bad practices shouldn’t be dressed up with fancy words. Retreat is always a bad move, as Homer teaches us when he shows Odysseus explaining to Agamemnon the threat posed by having ships nearby when soldiers are tempted to flee. An army of lions taught in such ways would scatter before a herd of deer. Moreover, a city that owes its survival to a throng of pilots and oarsmen and other unworthy individuals isn’t able to properly honor its heroes, which leads to its downfall. 'Still, in Crete, we say that the Battle of Salamis saved Greece.' That’s a common view. But Megillus and I argue that the Battle of Marathon kicked off the liberation and that the Battle of Plataea finished it; these battles improved people, while the Battles of Salamis and Artemisium did not. We also believe that simple survival isn't the utmost political good for individuals or states, but maintaining the best way of living is. 'Absolutely.' Let’s make an effort to stick to this principle in our approach to colonization and legislation.
And first, let me ask you who are to be the colonists? May any one come from any city of Crete? For you would surely not send a general invitation to all Hellas. Yet I observe that in Crete there are people who have come from Argos and Aegina and other places. 'Our recruits will be drawn from all Crete, and of other Hellenes we should prefer Peloponnesians. As you observe, there are Argives among the Cretans; moreover the Gortynians, who are the best of all Cretans, have come from Gortys in Peloponnesus.'
And first, let me ask you who will be the colonists? Can anyone come from any city in Crete? You definitely wouldn’t send a general invitation to all of Greece. However, I notice that there are people in Crete who have come from Argos, Aegina, and other places. 'Our recruits will be taken from all of Crete, and we would prefer to draw from other Greeks, particularly those from the Peloponnesus. As you can see, there are Argives among the Cretans; moreover, the Gortynians, who are the best of all Cretans, have come from Gortys in the Peloponnesus.'
Colonization is in some ways easier when the colony goes out in a swarm from one country, owing to the pressure of population, or revolution, or war. In this case there is the advantage that the new colonists have a community of race, language, and laws. But then again, they are less obedient to the legislator; and often they are anxious to keep the very laws and customs which caused their ruin at home. A mixed multitude, on the other hand, is more tractable, although there is a difficulty in making them pull together. There is nothing, however, which perfects men's virtue more than legislation and colonization. And yet I have a word to say which may seem to be depreciatory of legislators. 'What is that?'
Colonization can be somewhat easier when a group of people leaves one country, driven by overpopulation, revolution, or war. The benefit here is that the new colonists share a common race, language, and laws. However, they tend to be less compliant with the lawmaker's orders and often want to cling to the very laws and customs that led to their downfall at home. On the flip side, a diverse crowd is generally easier to manage, even though it can be challenging to unite them. That said, nothing hones people's character quite like lawmaking and colonization. Still, I have a point to make that might sound critical of lawmakers. 'What is that?'
I was going to make the saddening reflection, that accidents of all sorts are the true legislators,—wars and pestilences and famines and the frequent recurrence of bad seasons. The observer will be inclined to say that almost all human things are chance; and this is certainly true about navigation and medicine, and the art of the general. But there is another thing which may equally be said. 'What is it?' That God governs all things, and that chance and opportunity co-operate with Him. And according to yet a third view, art has part with them, for surely in a storm it is well to have a pilot? And the same is true of legislation: even if circumstances are favourable, a skilful lawgiver is still necessary. 'Most true.' All artists would pray for certain conditions under which to exercise their art: and would not the legislator do the same? 'Certainly?' Come, legislator, let us say to him, and what are the conditions which you would have? He will answer, Grant me a city which is ruled by a tyrant; and let the tyrant be young, mindful, teachable, courageous, magnanimous; and let him have the inseparable condition of all virtue, which is temperance—not prudence, but that natural temperance which is the gift of children and animals, and is hardly reckoned among goods—with this he must be endowed, if the state is to acquire the form most conducive to happiness in the speediest manner. And I must add one other condition: the tyrant must be fortunate, and his good fortune must consist in his having the co-operation of a great legislator. When God has done all this, He has done the best which He can for a state; not so well if He has given them two legislators instead of one, and less and less well if He has given them a great many. An orderly tyranny most easily passes into the perfect state; in the second degree, a monarchy; in the third degree, a democracy; an oligarchy is worst of all. 'I do not understand.' I suppose that you have never seen a city which is subject to a tyranny? 'I have no desire to see one.' You would have seen what I am describing, if you ever had. The tyrant can speedily change the manners of a state, and affix the stamp of praise or blame on any action which he pleases; for the citizens readily follow the example which he sets. There is no quicker way of making changes; but there is a counterbalancing difficulty. It is hard to find the divine love of temperance and justice existing in any powerful form of government, whether in a monarchy or an oligarchy. In olden days there were chiefs like Nestor, who was the most eloquent and temperate of mankind, but there is no one his equal now. If such an one ever arises among us, blessed will he be, and blessed they who listen to his words. For where power and wisdom and temperance meet in one, there are the best laws and constitutions. I am endeavouring to show you how easy under the conditions supposed, and how difficult under any other, is the task of giving a city good laws. 'How do you mean?' Let us old men attempt to mould in words a constitution for your new state, as children make figures out of wax. 'Proceed. What constitution shall we give—democracy, oligarchy, or aristocracy?' To which of these classes, Megillus, do you refer your own state? 'The Spartan constitution seems to me to contain all these elements. Our state is a democracy and also an aristocracy; the power of the Ephors is tyrannical, and we have an ancient monarchy.' 'Much the same,' adds Cleinias, 'may be said of Cnosus.' The reason is that you have polities, but other states are mere aggregations of men dwelling together, which are named after their several ruling powers; whereas a state, if an 'ocracy' at all, should be called a theocracy. A tale of old will explain my meaning. There is a tradition of a golden age, in which all things were spontaneous and abundant. Cronos, then lord of the world, knew that no mortal nature could endure the temptations of power, and therefore he appointed demons or demi-gods, who are of a superior race, to have dominion over man, as man has dominion over the animals. They took care of us with great ease and pleasure to themselves, and no less to us; and the tradition says that only when God, and not man, is the ruler, can the human race cease from ill. This was the manner of life which prevailed under Cronos, and which we must strive to follow so far as the principle of immortality still abides in us and we live according to law and the dictates of right reason. But in an oligarchy or democracy, when the governing principle is athirst for pleasure, the laws are trampled under foot, and there is no possibility of salvation. Is it not often said that there are as many forms of laws as there are governments, and that they have no concern either with any one virtue or with all virtue, but are relative to the will of the government? Which is as much as to say that 'might makes right.' 'What do you mean?' I mean that governments enact their own laws, and that every government makes self-preservation its principal aim. He who transgresses the laws is regarded as an evil-doer, and punished accordingly. This was one of the unjust principles of government which we mentioned when speaking of the different claims to rule. We were agreed that parents should rule their children, the elder the younger, the noble the ignoble. But there were also several other principles, and among them Pindar's 'law of violence.' To whom then is our state to be entrusted? For many a government is only a victorious faction which has a monopoly of power, and refuses any share to the conquered, lest when they get into office they should remember their wrongs. Such governments are not polities, but parties; nor are any laws good which are made in the interest of particular classes only, and not of the whole. And in our state I mean to protest against making any man a ruler because he is rich, or strong, or noble. But those who are obedient to the laws, and who win the victory of obedience, shall be promoted to the service of the Gods according to the degree of their obedience. When I call the ruler the servant or minister of the law, this is not a mere paradox, but I mean to say that upon a willingness to obey the law the existence of the state depends. 'Truly, Stranger, you have a keen vision.' Why, yes; every man when he is old has his intellectual vision most keen. And now shall we call in our colonists and make a speech to them? Friends, we say to them, God holds in His hand the beginning, middle, and end of all things, and He moves in a straight line towards the accomplishment of His will. Justice always bears Him company, and punishes those who fall short of His laws. He who would be happy follows humbly in her train; but he who is lifted up with pride, or wealth, or honour, or beauty, is soon deserted by God, and, being deserted, he lives in confusion and disorder. To many he seems a great man; but in a short time he comes to utter destruction. Wherefore, seeing these things, what ought we to do or think? 'Every man ought to follow God.' What life, then, is pleasing to God? There is an old saying that 'like agrees with like, measure with measure,' and God ought to be our measure in all things. The temperate man is the friend of God because he is like Him, and the intemperate man is not His friend, because he is not like Him. And the conclusion is, that the best of all things for a good man is to pray and sacrifice to the Gods; but the bad man has a polluted soul; and therefore his service is wasted upon the Gods, while the good are accepted of them. I have told you the mark at which we ought to aim. You will say, How, and with what weapons? In the first place we affirm, that after the Olympian Gods and the Gods of the state, honour should be given to the Gods below, and to them should be offered everything in even numbers and of the second choice; the auspicious odd numbers and everything of the first choice are reserved for the Gods above. Next demi-gods or spirits must be honoured, and then heroes, and after them family gods, who will be worshipped at their local seats according to law. Further, the honour due to parents should not be forgotten; children owe all that they have to them, and the debt must be repaid by kindness and attention in old age. No unbecoming word must be uttered before them; for there is an avenging angel who hears them when they are angry, and the child should consider that the parent when he has been wronged has a right to be angry. After their death let them have a moderate funeral, such as their fathers have had before them; and there shall be an annual commemoration of them. Living on this wise, we shall be accepted of the Gods, and shall pass our days in good hope. The law will determine all our various duties towards relatives and friends and other citizens, and the whole state will be happy and prosperous. But if the legislator would persuade as well as command, he will add prefaces to his laws which will predispose the citizens to virtue. Even a little accomplished in the way of gaining the hearts of men is of great value. For most men are in no particular haste to become good. As Hesiod says:
I was going to make the sad observation that all kinds of accidents are the real lawmakers—wars, plagues, famines, and the regular occurrence of bad weather. The observer might say that nearly everything human is just a matter of chance; and this is definitely true for navigation, medicine, and military strategy. But there's another perspective worth mentioning. What is it? That God controls everything, and chance and opportunity work in alignment with Him. Moreover, from a third perspective, skill plays a role, because surely in a storm, having a skilled pilot is crucial? The same applies to making laws: even when conditions are favorable, a skilled lawmaker is still essential. “That's very true.” All creators would wish for certain conditions to practice their craft: wouldn't a lawmaker desire the same? “Absolutely.” Let's approach the lawmaker and ask him what conditions he would like. He would respond, “Grant me a city ruled by a tyrant; let this tyrant be young, mindful, teachable, courageous, and generous; and let him possess the essential quality of all virtues, which is self-control—not mere practical wisdom, but that natural self-restraint that we see in children and animals, which is often overlooked as a good.” He must have this trait if the state is to achieve a form most conducive to happiness in the quickest way possible. Additionally, I must mention another requirement: the tyrant must be lucky, and his fortune must come from having a great lawmaker working with him. When God has brought all this together, He has done the best He can for a state; it is worse if He has given them two lawmakers instead of one, and even less effective if there are many. A well-ordered tyranny more easily transforms into the perfect state; then a monarchy; next a democracy; and an oligarchy is the least favorable. “I don't understand.” I assume you've never seen a city under tyranny? “I have no desire to see one.” You would understand what I'm describing if you had. A tyrant quickly changes the behavior of a state and can decide what actions deserve praise or blame, as citizens readily follow his lead. There’s no quicker way to enact change; however, there’s a significant drawback. It’s hard to find genuine love for self-control and justice in any powerful system of government, whether it’s a monarchy or an oligarchy. In ancient times, there were leaders like Nestor, who was the most eloquent and self-controlled of men, but there’s no one like him today. If such a person were to emerge among us, he would be blessed, and those who listened to him would be blessed too. For where power, wisdom, and self-control intersect, there you find the best laws and constitutions. I’m trying to show you how easy it is, under the assumed conditions, and how difficult it is under any other circumstances, to establish good laws in a city. “What do you mean?” Let us older men try to craft a constitution for your new state, like children shaping figures from wax. “Go on. What type of constitution should we create—democracy, oligarchy, or aristocracy?” Which of these types do you believe fits your state, Megillus? “The Spartan constitution seems to me to encompass all these elements. Our state is a democracy and an aristocracy; the power of the Ephors has a tyrannical aspect, and we have an ancient monarchy.” “The same,” adds Cleinias, “can be said of Cnosus.” The difference is that you have structured governments, whereas other states are mere collections of people living together, named according to their ruling powers; if a state is any sort of ‘ocracy’ at all, it should truly be called a theocracy. A tale from the past illustrates my point. There’s a tradition of a golden age when everything was spontaneous and plentiful. Cronos, then the ruler of the world, recognized that no mortal could withstand the temptations of power, so he appointed superior beings—demons or demigods—to govern humanity, just as we govern animals. They took care of us effortlessly and happily, and tradition holds that only when God rules, and not man, can humanity be free from evil. This was the way of life during the reign of Cronos, and it’s the road we should aim to follow as long as the principle of immortality is still with us, and we live according to law and sound reason. But in an oligarchy or a democracy, when the governing principle is driven by the thirst for pleasure, laws are ignored, and there’s no chance for salvation. Isn't it often said that the forms of law are as numerous as there are governments, and that they concern neither any specific virtue nor all virtues, but are shaped by the desires of those in power? Which essentially means ‘might makes right.’ “What do you mean by that?” I mean that governments make their own laws, with self-preservation as their primary goal. Anyone who breaks the law is seen as a wrongdoer and is punished accordingly. This was one of the unjust principles we discussed regarding claims to rule. We all agreed that parents should rule over their children, elders over the younger, and the noble over the ignoble. However, there were also many other principles, among them Pindar's ‘law of violence.’ So who should we trust to govern our state? Many governments are merely victorious factions that hold a monopoly on power and deny any share to the defeated, fearing they might remember their wrongs once empowered. Such governments are not true polities, but mere factions; and any laws that serve only specific groups and not the entire society are unjust. In our state, I oppose making any individual a ruler solely based on wealth, strength, or nobility. Instead, those who abide by the laws and demonstrate their commitment to obedience should be raised to serve the Gods based on how well they follow the law. When I refer to the ruler as the servant or minister of the law, it’s not just a catchy phrase; I mean to say that the state's existence relies on the willingness of people to obey the law. “Truly, Stranger, you see things clearly.” Yes, indeed; as men grow old, their insight sharpens. Now, shall we summon our colonists and address them? Friends, we tell them, God controls the beginning, middle, and end of everything and works steadily toward His purpose. Justice always accompanies Him, punishing those who fail to adhere to His laws. Anyone who seeks happiness must humbly follow in her footsteps; but those who become proud, or seek wealth, honor, or beauty, will soon be abandoned by God, and once abandoned, they live in a state of confusion and chaos. To many, such a person might appear great; but in a short time, they fall into utter ruin. Given these observations, what should we do or think? “Every person should follow God.” What kind of life is pleasing to God? There’s an ancient belief that “like attracts like, measure with measure,” and God should be our measure in all things. The self-controlled person is God's friend because they are like Him, while the intemperate person is not His friend, as they are unlike Him. Therefore, it follows that the best thing for a good person is to pray and make sacrifices to the Gods; but the bad person, possessing a tainted soul, wastes his offerings on the Gods, whereas the good are accepted by them. I've explained the goal we should strive for. You might ask, how, and with what means? First, we assert that after honoring the Olympian Gods and the state Gods, we should respect the underworld Gods, to whom we should offer everything in even numbers and of lesser quality; while the auspicious odd numbers and the best offerings are reserved for the Olympian Gods. Next, we must honor demi-gods and spirits, followed by heroes, and then household gods, who should be worshipped at their designated places according to the law. Additionally, we must not forget the honor due to parents; children owe everything to them, and this debt must be repaid with kindness and attention in their old age. No disrespectful words should be spoken in their presence, for there is a watchful force that hears them when they are angry, and the child must remember that a parent has every right to be upset when wronged. After their death, let them have a modest funeral, just as their ancestors had, and there will be an annual remembrance of them. By living this way, we will be favored by the Gods and spend our days in hope. The law will determine our various responsibilities toward our relatives, friends, and other citizens, ensuring that the entire state is happy and prosperous. But if the lawmaker wants to persuade as well as command, he should include introductions to his laws that encourage citizens toward virtue. Even a small amount of goodwill gained can be very impactful. Most people are not particularly eager to become good, as Hesiod says:
'Long and steep is the first half of the way to virtue, But when you have reached the top the rest is easy.'
'The first half of the journey to virtue is long and tough, but once you reach the top, the rest is easy.'
'Those are excellent words.' Yes; but may I tell you the effect which the preceding discourse has had upon me? I will express my meaning in an address to the lawgiver:—O lawgiver, if you know what we ought to do and say, you can surely tell us;—you are not like the poet, who, as you were just now saying, does not know the effect of his own words. And the poet may reply, that when he sits down on the tripod of the Muses he is not in his right mind, and that being a mere imitator he may be allowed to say all sorts of opposite things, and cannot tell which of them is true. But this licence cannot be allowed to the lawgiver. For example, there are three kinds of funerals; one of them is excessive, another mean, a third moderate, and you say that the last is right. Now if I had a rich wife, and she told me to bury her, and I were to sing of her burial, I should praise the extravagant kind; a poor man would commend a funeral of the meaner sort, and a man of moderate means would prefer a moderate funeral. But you, as legislator, would have to say exactly what you meant by 'moderate.' 'Very true.' And is our lawgiver to have no preamble or interpretation of his laws, never offering a word of advice to his subjects, after the manner of some doctors? For of doctors are there not two kinds? The one gentle and the other rough, doctors who are freemen and learn themselves and teach their pupils scientifically, and doctor's assistants who get their knowledge empirically by attending on their masters? 'Of course there are.' And did you ever observe that the gentlemen doctors practise upon freemen, and that slave doctors confine themselves to slaves? The latter go about the country or wait for the slaves at the dispensaries. They hold no parley with their patients about their diseases or the remedies of them; they practise by the rule of thumb, and give their decrees in the most arbitrary manner. When they have doctored one patient they run off to another, whom they treat with equal assurance, their duty being to relieve the master of the care of his sick slaves. But the other doctor, who practises on freemen, proceeds in quite a different way. He takes counsel with his patient and learns from him, and never does anything until he has persuaded him of what he is doing. He trusts to influence rather than force. Now is not the use of both methods far better than the use of either alone? And both together may be advantageously employed by us in legislation.
"Those are great words." Yes, but can I share how the previous discussion has impacted me? I’ll put my thoughts in a message to the lawmaker:—O lawmaker, if you know what we should do and say, then you can certainly guide us;—you aren’t like the poet, who, as you just mentioned, doesn’t recognize the effect of his own words. The poet might respond that when he sits on the tripod of the Muses, he’s not thinking clearly, and since he’s just an imitator, he can say all sorts of contradictory things without knowing which are true. But this kind of freedom can’t be granted to the lawmaker. For instance, there are three types of funerals; one is excessive, another is insufficient, and a third is moderate, and you claim that the last one is correct. Now, if I had a wealthy wife who instructed me to bury her, and I were to compose a piece about her funeral, I would praise the extravagant type; a poor man would favor a more modest funeral, and someone with moderate means would choose a moderate funeral. But you, as the legislator, must clearly define what you mean by 'moderate.' "Very true." Should our lawmaker have no introduction or explanation of his laws, never offering guidance to his subjects, like some doctors do? Aren’t there two types of doctors? One who is gentle and the other who is harsh, with doctors who are educated and teach their students scientifically, and helpers who learn by assisting their masters? "Of course there are." Have you noticed that the skilled doctors treat free people, while those who are less skilled focus on slaves? The latter may roam around the countryside or wait for the slaves at clinics. They don’t engage in conversation about their patients' illnesses or the remedies; they operate on instinct and issue their judgments arbitrarily. After treating one patient, they move on to another with the same confidence, because their role is to relieve the master of looking after his sick slaves. However, the other doctor, who works with free people, approaches things very differently. He consults with his patient and listens, and he never does anything until he has convinced them of his plan. He relies on persuasion rather than coercion. Isn’t it clear that using both methods together is much better than relying on just one? And we can effectively apply both in our lawmaking.
We may illustrate our proposal by an example. The laws relating to marriage naturally come first, and therefore we may begin with them. The simple law would be as follows:—A man shall marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five; if he do not, he shall be fined or deprived of certain privileges. The double law would add the reason why: Forasmuch as man desires immortality, which he attains by the procreation of children, no one should deprive himself of his share in this good. He who obeys the law is blameless, but he who disobeys must not be a gainer by his celibacy; and therefore he shall pay a yearly fine, and shall not be allowed to receive honour from the young. That is an example of what I call the double law, which may enable us to judge how far the addition of persuasion to threats is desirable. 'Lacedaemonians in general, Stranger, are in favour of brevity; in this case, however, I prefer length. But Cleinias is the real lawgiver, and he ought to be first consulted.' 'Thank you, Megillus.' Whether words are to be many or few, is a foolish question:—the best and not the shortest forms are always to be approved. And legislators have never thought of the advantages which they might gain by using persuasion as well as force, but trust to force only. And I have something else to say about the matter. Here have we been from early dawn until noon, discoursing about laws, and all that we have been saying is only the preamble of the laws which we are about to give. I tell you this, because I want you to observe that songs and strains have all of them preludes, but that laws, though called by the same name (nomoi), have never any prelude. Now I am disposed to give preludes to laws, dividing them into two parts—one containing the despotic command, which I described under the image of the slave doctor—the other the persuasive part, which I term the preamble. The legislator should give preludes or preambles to his laws. 'That shall be the way in my colony.' I am glad that you agree with me; this is a matter which it is important to remember. A preamble is not always necessary to a law: the lawgiver must determine when it is needed, as the musician determines when there is to be a prelude to a song. 'Most true: and now, having a preamble, let us recommence our discourse.' Enough has been said of Gods and parents, and we may proceed to consider what relates to the citizens—their souls, bodies, properties,—their occupations and amusements; and so arrive at the nature of education.
We can illustrate our proposal with an example. The laws about marriage naturally come first, so let's start there. The basic law would be: A man must marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five; if he doesn’t, he will be fined or lose certain privileges. The more detailed law would explain why: Since a man seeks immortality, which he achieves by having children, no one should rob themselves of this opportunity. Those who follow the law are in the right, but those who don’t shouldn’t benefit from their single life; therefore, they will pay an annual fine and won't be allowed to receive respect from the youth. This is an example of what I call a double law, which can help us evaluate how effective combining persuasion with threats can be. "The Lacedaemonians, in general, value brevity, but in this case, I prefer to be more detailed. However, Cleinias is the true lawmaker, and he should be consulted first." "Thank you, Megillus." Whether to use many or few words is a silly question—what matters is finding the best form, not the shortest. Legislators have often overlooked the benefits of combining persuasion with force, relying solely on force. I have more to say on this topic. We’ve been discussing laws since early morning until now, and everything we’ve talked about is just the introduction to the laws we are about to present. I mention this so you notice that songs and melodies all have preludes, while laws, despite being referred to by the same name (nomoi), lack any introduction. I believe we should provide introductions for laws, dividing them into two parts—one part with the authoritative command, symbolized by the image of a slave doctor, and the other the persuasive part, which I call the introduction. The lawmaker should add introductions or preambles to their laws. "That will be the approach in my colony." I’m glad you agree with me; this is an important point to remember. An introduction isn’t always necessary for a law; the lawmaker must decide when it is required, just as a musician determines when to include a prelude in a song. "Very true; now that we have an introduction, let’s continue our discussion." We’ve said enough about gods and parents, and we can move on to topics that concern the citizens—their souls, bodies, properties, their jobs, and leisure activities; and so we reach the topic of education.
The first word of the Laws somewhat abruptly introduces the thought which is present to the mind of Plato throughout the work, namely, that Law is of divine origin. In the words of a great English writer—'Her seat is the bosom of God, her voice the harmony of the world.' Though the particular laws of Sparta and Crete had a narrow and imperfect aim, this is not true of divine laws, which are based upon the principles of human nature, and not framed to meet the exigencies of the moment. They have their natural divisions, too, answering to the kinds of virtue; very unlike the discordant enactments of an Athenian assembly or of an English Parliament. Yet we may observe two inconsistencies in Plato's treatment of the subject: first, a lesser, inasmuch as he does not clearly distinguish the Cretan and Spartan laws, of which the exclusive aim is war, from those other laws of Zeus and Apollo which are said to be divine, and to comprehend all virtue. Secondly, we may retort on him his own complaint against Sparta and Crete, that he has himself given us a code of laws, which for the most part have a military character; and that we cannot point to 'obvious examples of similar institutions which are concerned with pleasure;' at least there is only one such, that which relates to the regulation of convivial intercourse. The military spirit which is condemned by him in the beginning of the Laws, reappears in the seventh and eighth books.
The first word of the Laws somewhat suddenly brings up a key idea that Plato has in mind throughout the work: that law comes from a divine source. As a great English writer said, "Her seat is the bosom of God, her voice the harmony of the world." Although the specific laws of Sparta and Crete have a limited and flawed purpose, divine laws are different; they are rooted in the principles of human nature and not just created to address immediate needs. They naturally divide according to the different types of virtue, unlike the conflicting laws made by an Athenian assembly or an English Parliament. However, we can note two inconsistencies in how Plato handles this topic: first, a minor one, since he doesn't clearly differentiate between the Cretan and Spartan laws, which are solely focused on war, and the other laws of Zeus and Apollo that are considered divine and encompass all virtue. Secondly, we can counter his own critique of Sparta and Crete by pointing out that he has given us a set of laws that mostly emphasize military aspects, and we can't identify "obvious examples of similar institutions that focus on pleasure;" at least there's only one, which involves managing social gatherings. The military aspect that he criticizes at the start of the Laws resurfaces in the seventh and eighth books.
The mention of Minos the great lawgiver, and of Rhadamanthus the righteous administrator of the law, suggests the two divisions of the laws into enactments and appointments of officers. The legislator and the judge stand side by side, and their functions cannot be wholly distinguished. For the judge is in some sort a legislator, at any rate in small matters; and his decisions growing into precedents, must determine the innumerable details which arise out of the conflict of circumstances. These Plato proposes to leave to a younger generation of legislators. The action of courts of law in making law seems to have escaped him, probably because the Athenian law-courts were popular assemblies; and, except in a mythical form, he can hardly be said to have had before his eyes the ideal of a judge. In reading the Laws of Plato, or any other ancient writing about Laws, we should consider how gradual the process is by which not only a legal system, but the administration of a court of law, becomes perfected.
The mention of Minos, the great lawgiver, and Rhadamanthus, the righteous law administrator, points to the two parts of laws: the rules and the appointments of officials. The legislator and the judge work closely together, and their roles overlap significantly. The judge acts as a kind of legislator, at least in minor cases; and since his decisions set precedents, they must resolve the countless details that come from different situations. Plato suggests leaving this to a future generation of lawmakers. It seems he overlooked how courts play a role in making laws, likely because the Athenian courts were popular assemblies; and aside from a mythical context, he probably did not have a clear vision of an ideal judge. When we read Plato's Laws or any other ancient text on laws, we should remember how gradual the process is for not just creating a legal system but also perfecting the court's administration.
There are other subjects on which Plato breaks ground, as his manner is, early in the work. First, he gives a sketch of the subject of laws; they are to comprehend the whole of human life, from infancy to age, and from birth to death, although the proposed plan is far from being regularly executed in the books which follow, partly owing to the necessity of describing the constitution as well as the laws of his new colony. Secondly, he touches on the power of music, which may exercise so great an influence on the character of men for good or evil; he refers especially to the great offence—which he mentions again, and which he had condemned in the Republic—of varying the modes and rhythms, as well as to that of separating the words from the music. Thirdly, he reprobates the prevalence of unnatural loves in Sparta and Crete, which he attributes to the practice of syssitia and gymnastic exercises, and considers to be almost inseparable from them. To this subject he again returns in the eighth book. Fourthly, the virtues are affirmed to be inseparable from one another, even if not absolutely one; this, too, is a principle which he reasserts at the conclusion of the work. As in the beginnings of Plato's other writings, we have here several 'notes' struck, which form the preludes of longer discussions, although the hint is less ingeniously given, and the promise more imperfectly fulfilled than in the earlier dialogues.
There are other topics where Plato makes new ground, as he typically does early in his work. First, he outlines the subject of laws; they are meant to cover all aspects of human life, from childhood to old age, and from birth to death, even though the planned structure is not fully carried out in the following books, partly because he needs to describe both the constitution and the laws of his new colony. Secondly, he discusses the impact of music, which can greatly influence people’s character for better or worse; he highlights particularly the serious issue—mentioned again later, and which he condemned in the Republic—of changing musical modes and rhythms, as well as separating the words from the music. Third, he criticizes the presence of unnatural relationships in Sparta and Crete, which he links to the practice of communal meals and physical training, and views as nearly impossible to separate from them. He revisits this topic in the eighth book. Fourth, he asserts that virtues are interconnected, even if they aren’t entirely the same; this is also a principle he reaffirms at the end of the work. Like in the beginnings of Plato's other writings, here we find several key themes introduced that lead to longer discussions, although the hints are less cleverly presented and the promises not as fully met compared to his earlier dialogues.
The distinction between ethics and politics has not yet dawned upon Plato's mind. To him, law is still floating in a region between the two. He would have desired that all the acts and laws of a state should have regard to all virtue. But he did not see that politics and law are subject to their own conditions, and are distinguished from ethics by natural differences. The actions of which politics take cognisance are necessarily collective or representative; and law is limited to external acts which affect others as well as the agents. Ethics, on the other hand, include the whole duty of man in relation both to himself and others. But Plato has never reflected on these differences. He fancies that the life of the state can be as easily fashioned as that of the individual. He is favourable to a balance of power, but never seems to have considered that power might be so balanced as to produce an absolute immobility in the state. Nor is he alive to the evils of confounding vice and crime; or to the necessity of governments abstaining from excessive interference with their subjects.
Plato hasn't yet recognized the difference between ethics and politics. For him, law exists in a space between the two. He would have wanted all the actions and laws of a state to consider all virtues. However, he didn't realize that politics and law have their own conditions and are inherently different from ethics. The actions addressed by politics are necessarily collective or representative, and law pertains to external actions that affect both others and the individuals involved. Ethics, on the other hand, encompasses a person's entire duty in relation to themselves and others. But Plato has not reflected on these differences. He believes that the state's life can be shaped as easily as an individual's. He supports a balance of power but doesn't seem to acknowledge that such balance could lead to total stagnation in the state. Additionally, he doesn't recognize the problems with mixing up vice and crime or the need for governments to refrain from excessive interference with their citizens.
Yet this confusion of ethics and politics has also a better and a truer side. If unable to grasp some important distinctions, Plato is at any rate seeking to elevate the lower to the higher; he does not pull down the principles of men to their practice, or narrow the conception of the state to the immediate necessities of politics. Political ideals of freedom and equality, of a divine government which has been or will be in some other age or country, have greatly tended to educate and ennoble the human race. And if not the first author of such ideals (for they are as old as Hesiod), Plato has done more than any other writer to impress them on the world. To those who censure his idealism we may reply in his own words—'He is not the worse painter who draws a perfectly beautiful figure, because no such figure of a man could ever have existed' (Republic).
Yet this mix-up of ethics and politics also has a positive and genuine side. Even if he struggles to understand some key differences, Plato is still trying to lift the lower aspects to higher ideals; he doesn’t take the principles of humanity down to their practices, nor does he limit the idea of the state to the immediate needs of politics. Political ideals of freedom and equality, of a divine government that has existed or will exist in a different time or place, have greatly contributed to the education and enrichment of humanity. And while he may not be the first to introduce such ideals (since they are as old as Hesiod), Plato has done more than any other writer to make them influential in the world. To those who criticize his idealism, we can respond with his own words—'He is not the worse painter who draws a perfectly beautiful figure, because no such figure of a man could ever have existed' (Republic).
A new thought about education suddenly occurs to him, and for a time exercises a sort of fascination over his mind, though in the later books of the Laws it is forgotten or overlooked. As true courage is allied to temperance, so there must be an education which shall train mankind to resist pleasure as well as to endure pain. No one can be on his guard against that of which he has no experience. The perfectly trained citizen should have been accustomed to look his enemy in the face, and to measure his strength against her. This education in pleasure is to be given, partly by festive intercourse, but chiefly by the song and dance. Youth are to learn music and gymnastics; their elders are to be trained and tested at drinking parties. According to the old proverb, in vino veritas, they will then be open and visible to the world in their true characters; and also they will be more amenable to the laws, and more easily moulded by the hand of the legislator. The first reason is curious enough, though not important; the second can hardly be thought deserving of much attention. Yet if Plato means to say that society is one of the principal instruments of education in after-life, he has expressed in an obscure fashion a principle which is true, and to his contemporaries was also new. That at a banquet a degree of moral discipline might be exercised is an original thought, but Plato has not yet learnt to express his meaning in an abstract form. He is sensible that moderation is better than total abstinence, and that asceticism is but a one-sided training. He makes the sagacious remark, that 'those who are able to resist pleasure may often be among the worst of mankind.' He is as much aware as any modern utilitarian that the love of pleasure is the great motive of human action. This cannot be eradicated, and must therefore be regulated,—the pleasure must be of the right sort. Such reflections seem to be the real, though imperfectly expressed, groundwork of the discussion. As in the juxtaposition of the Bacchic madness and the great gift of Dionysus, or where he speaks of the different senses in which pleasure is and is not the object of imitative art, or in the illustration of the failure of the Dorian institutions from the prayer of Theseus, we have to gather his meaning as well as we can from the connexion.
A new idea about education suddenly comes to him, and for a while, it fascinates him, although it is later forgotten or overlooked in the later books of the Laws. Just as true courage is connected to self-control, there must be an education that trains people to resist pleasure as well as endure pain. No one can protect themselves against what they haven't experienced. The ideal citizen should be prepared to confront their enemy and gauge their strength against them. This education in pleasure will be provided partly through social gatherings but mainly through song and dance. Young people should learn music and athletic skills, while their elders should be trained and tested at drinking parties. According to the old saying, in vino veritas, they will then show their true selves to the world; they will also be more compliant with the laws and easier to shape by the legislator's hand. The first point is interesting but not especially important, and the second hardly deserves much focus. Yet if Plato is implying that society is a key factor in education later in life, he has expressed a principle that is both true and was new to his contemporaries, albeit in an unclear way. The idea that moral discipline could be exercised at a banquet is original, but Plato has not yet learned to articulate his thoughts in an abstract manner. He recognizes that moderation is better than complete abstinence and that asceticism is just one-sided training. He wisely notes that "those who can resist pleasure may often be among the worst people." He is as aware as any modern utilitarian that the pursuit of pleasure is a major motivator of human behavior. This can't be removed and must therefore be regulated—the pleasure must be the right kind. These reflections seem to be the true, albeit poorly articulated, foundation of the discussion. As seen in the contrasting ideas of Bacchus's madness and the great gift of Dionysus, or when he discusses the different ways pleasure is and isn't the focus of imitative art, or in the example of the failure of Dorian institutions from Theseus's prayer, we have to piece together his meaning from the context as best we can.
The feeling of old age is discernible in this as well as in several other passages of the Laws. Plato has arrived at the time when men sit still and look on at life; and he is willing to allow himself and others the few pleasures which remain to them. Wine is to cheer them now that their limbs are old and their blood runs cold. They are the best critics of dancing and music, but cannot be induced to join in song unless they have been enlivened by drinking. Youth has no need of the stimulus of wine, but age can only be made young again by its invigorating influence. Total abstinence for the young, moderate and increasing potations for the old, is Plato's principle. The fire, of which there is too much in the one, has to be brought to the other. Drunkenness, like madness, had a sacredness and mystery to the Greek; if, on the one hand, as in the case of the Tarentines, it degraded a whole population, it was also a mode of worshipping the god Dionysus, which was to be practised on certain occasions. Moreover, the intoxication produced by the fruit of the vine was very different from the grosser forms of drunkenness which prevail among some modern nations.
The feeling of old age is noticeable in this and several other parts of the Laws. Plato has reached the stage where people sit back and observe life; he’s willing to let himself and others enjoy the few pleasures that are left. Wine is meant to lift their spirits now that their bodies are aging and their blood runs cold. They may be the best critics of dance and music, but they won't join in singing unless they’ve had a drink to boost their energy. Young people don't need the kick of wine, but older folks can only feel young again with its refreshing effects. Plato’s principle is total abstinence for the young, and moderate, increasing amounts for the old. The excess energy in the youth needs to be balanced for the elderly. To the Greeks, drunkenness, like madness, had a sense of sacredness and mystery; while, on one hand, it could bring a whole community down, as seen with the Tarentines, it was also a way to honor the god Dionysus on certain occasions. Plus, the type of intoxication from wine was very different from the coarser kinds of drunkenness found in some modern cultures.
The physician in modern times would restrict the old man's use of wine within narrow limits. He would tell us that you cannot restore strength by a stimulus. Wine may call back the vital powers in disease, but cannot reinvigorate old age. In his maxims of health and longevity, though aware of the importance of a simple diet, Plato has omitted to dwell on the perfect rule of moderation. His commendation of wine is probably a passing fancy, and may have arisen out of his own habits or tastes. If so, he is not the only philosopher whose theory has been based upon his practice.
The doctor today would limit the old man's wine consumption significantly. He would explain that you can't regain strength through a stimulant. Wine might revive one's energy during an illness, but it can't rejuvenate old age. In his teachings on health and longevity, Plato recognizes the importance of a simple diet but fails to emphasize the vital principle of moderation. His praise for wine likely reflects a personal preference or habit. If that's the case, he's not the only philosopher whose theories stem from his own practices.
Plato's denial of wine to the young and his approval of it for their elders has some points of view which may be illustrated by the temperance controversy of our own times. Wine may be allowed to have a religious as well as a festive use; it is commended both in the Old and New Testament; it has been sung of by nearly all poets; and it may be truly said to have a healing influence both on body and mind. Yet it is also very liable to excess and abuse, and for this reason is prohibited by Mahometans, as well as of late years by many Christians, no less than by the ancient Spartans; and to sound its praises seriously seems to partake of the nature of a paradox. But we may rejoin with Plato that the abuse of a good thing does not take away the use of it. Total abstinence, as we often say, is not the best rule, but moderate indulgence; and it is probably true that a temperate use of wine may contribute some elements of character to social life which we can ill afford to lose. It draws men out of their reserve; it helps them to forget themselves and to appear as they by nature are when not on their guard, and therefore to make them more human and greater friends to their fellow-men. It gives them a new experience; it teaches them to combine self-control with a measure of indulgence; it may sometimes restore to them the simplicity of childhood. We entirely agree with Plato in forbidding the use of wine to the young; but when we are of mature age there are occasions on which we derive refreshment and strength from moderate potations. It is well to make abstinence the rule, but the rule may sometimes admit of an exception. We are in a higher, as well as in a lower sense, the better for the use of wine. The question runs up into wider ones—What is the general effect of asceticism on human nature? and, Must there not be a certain proportion between the aspirations of man and his powers?—questions which have been often discussed both by ancient and modern philosophers. So by comparing things old and new we may sometimes help to realize to ourselves the meaning of Plato in the altered circumstances of our own life.
Plato's view on restricting wine for the young while allowing it for the older generation reflects some perspectives that can be related to today's temperance debates. Wine has both religious and celebratory aspects; it's praised in both the Old and New Testaments, celebrated by almost all poets, and can genuinely have a positive impact on both the body and mind. However, it is also prone to misuse and overindulgence, which is why it is banned by Muslims and, more recently, by some Christians, just like it was by the ancient Spartans. Therefore, seriously promoting wine seems paradoxical. Nevertheless, we can agree with Plato that the misuse of something good doesn’t negate its rightful use. Complete abstinence, as we often say, isn't the best guideline; rather, moderate enjoyment is. It's likely true that using wine in moderation can add valuable qualities to social interactions that we can't afford to lose. It encourages people to be more open; it allows them to let go of their inhibitions and show their true selves when they’re not guarded, making them more relatable and better friends to others. It provides a fresh experience; it teaches self-control balanced with a bit of indulgence; and it can sometimes bring back the simplicity of childhood. We completely agree with Plato in restricting wine for the young, but once we reach adulthood, there are moments when moderate drinking can refresh and empower us. It’s wise to make abstinence the standard, but there can be exceptions to that rule. In both profound and simple ways, we benefit from the use of wine. This leads to broader questions—What is the overall impact of asceticism on human nature? Must there be a balance between human aspirations and capabilities?—issues that have been debated by both ancient and modern philosophers. By comparing old and new ideas, we can often better understand Plato's meaning in the context of our own changed circumstances.
Like the importance which he attaches to festive entertainments, his depreciation of courage to the fourth place in the scale of virtue appears to be somewhat rhetorical and exaggerated. But he is speaking of courage in the lower sense of the term, not as including loyalty or temperance. He does not insist in this passage, as in the Protagoras, on the unity of the virtues; or, as in the Laches, on the identity of wisdom and courage. But he says that they all depend upon their leader mind, and that, out of the union of wisdom and temperance with courage, springs justice. Elsewhere he is disposed to regard temperance rather as a condition of all virtue than as a particular virtue. He generalizes temperance, as in the Republic he generalizes justice. The nature of the virtues is to run up into one another, and in many passages Plato makes but a faint effort to distinguish them. He still quotes the poets, somewhat enlarging, as his manner is, or playing with their meaning. The martial poet Tyrtaeus, and the oligarch Theognis, furnish him with happy illustrations of the two sorts of courage. The fear of fear, the division of goods into human and divine, the acknowledgment that peace and reconciliation are better than the appeal to the sword, the analysis of temperance into resistance of pleasure as well as endurance of pain, the distinction between the education which is suitable for a trade or profession, and for the whole of life, are important and probably new ethical conceptions. Nor has Plato forgotten his old paradox (Gorgias) that to be punished is better than to be unpunished, when he says, that to the bad man death is the only mitigation of his evil. He is not less ideal in many passages of the Laws than in the Gorgias or Republic. But his wings are heavy, and he is unequal to any sustained flight.
Like the value he places on celebrations, his downplaying of courage to the fourth position in the hierarchy of virtues seems a bit over-the-top and exaggerated. However, he is discussing courage in a more basic sense, not including loyalty or temperance. In this passage, unlike in the Protagoras, he doesn’t emphasize the unity of the virtues, nor in the Laches does he equate wisdom with courage. Instead, he states that all virtues rely on their guiding mind, and that justice arises from the combination of wisdom and temperance with courage. He also tends to see temperance more as a state of all virtues rather than as a specific virtue. He broadens the concept of temperance, similar to how he expands on justice in the Republic. The nature of virtues is to connect with one another, and in many sections, Plato makes only a slight effort to differentiate them. He continues to reference poets, often elaborating or playfully interpreting their meanings. The martial poet Tyrtaeus and the oligarch Theognis provide insightful examples of two kinds of courage. The fear of fear, the classification of goods into human and divine, the recognition that peace and reconciliation are preferable to conflict, the breakdown of temperance into resisting pleasure as well as enduring pain, and the difference between education suited for a job and education for life as a whole are significant and likely innovative ethical ideas. Plato also revisits his old paradox (Gorgias) that being punished is better than escaping punishment when he claims that for the bad person, death is the only way to lessen their suffering. He remains just as idealistic in several parts of the Laws as in the Gorgias or Republic. Yet, his thoughts are somewhat weighed down, making it difficult for him to maintain a sustained flight.
There is more attempt at dramatic effect in the first book than in the later parts of the work. The outburst of martial spirit in the Lacedaemonian, 'O best of men'; the protest which the Cretan makes against the supposed insult to his lawgiver; the cordial acknowledgment on the part of both of them that laws should not be discussed publicly by those who live under their rule; the difficulty which they alike experience in following the speculations of the Athenian, are highly characteristic.
There’s more focus on dramatic effect in the first book than in the later sections of the work. The passionate declaration from the Spartan, 'O best of men'; the Cretan's objection to what he sees as an insult to his lawgiver; the mutual agreement between them that laws shouldn’t be publicly debated by those who are governed by them; and the struggle they both face in understanding the Athenian's ideas are all very telling.
In the second book, Plato pursues further his notion of educating by a right use of pleasure. He begins by conceiving an endless power of youthful life, which is to be reduced to rule and measure by harmony and rhythm. Men differ from the lower animals in that they are capable of musical discipline. But music, like all art, must be truly imitative, and imitative of what is true and good. Art and morality agree in rejecting pleasure as the criterion of good. True art is inseparable from the highest and most ennobling ideas. Plato only recognizes the identity of pleasure and good when the pleasure is of the higher kind. He is the enemy of 'songs without words,' which he supposes to have some confusing or enervating effect on the mind of the hearer; and he is also opposed to the modern degeneracy of the drama, which he would probably have illustrated, like Aristophanes, from Euripides and Agathon. From this passage may be gathered a more perfect conception of art than from any other of Plato's writings. He understands that art is at once imitative and ideal, an exact representation of truth, and also a representation of the highest truth. The same double view of art may be gathered from a comparison of the third and tenth books of the Republic, but is here more clearly and pointedly expressed.
In the second book, Plato further develops his idea of education through the proper use of pleasure. He starts by imagining the limitless energy of youth, which should be organized and measured through harmony and rhythm. Humans differ from animals because they can engage in musical training. However, music, like all art, must genuinely reflect reality and embody what is true and good. Both art and morality agree that pleasure should not be the standard for determining what is good. True art is connected to the highest, most noble ideals. Plato only acknowledges a connection between pleasure and goodness when that pleasure is of a higher nature. He criticizes "songs without words," believing they can confuse or weaken the listener's mind; he is also against the decline of modern drama, likely referencing the works of Euripides and Agathon, similar to Aristophanes. This passage reveals a clearer understanding of art than found in any of Plato's other texts. He recognizes that art is both imitative and ideal, providing an accurate representation of truth and also representing the highest truth. This dual perspective on art can also be found in a comparison of the third and tenth books of the Republic, but it is articulated here in a more clear and focused manner.
We are inclined to suspect that both here and in the Republic Plato exaggerates the influence really exercised by the song and the dance. But we must remember also the susceptible nature of the Greek, and the perfection to which these arts were carried by him. Further, the music had a sacred and Pythagorean character; the dance too was part of a religious festival. And only at such festivals the sexes mingled in public, and the youths passed under the eyes of their elders.
We tend to think that both here and in the Republic, Plato exaggerates the real impact that music and dance have. However, we should also keep in mind the sensitive nature of the Greek people and how perfected these arts became. Additionally, the music had a sacred and Pythagorean aspect, and the dance was part of a religious celebration. It was only at these festivals that men and women interacted publicly, and young people were seen by their elders.
At the beginning of the third book, Plato abruptly asks the question, What is the origin of states? The answer is, Infinite time. We have already seen—in the Theaetetus, where he supposes that in the course of ages every man has had numberless progenitors, kings and slaves, Greeks and barbarians; and in the Critias, where he says that nine thousand years have elapsed since the island of Atlantis fought with Athens—that Plato is no stranger to the conception of long periods of time. He imagines human society to have been interrupted by natural convulsions; and beginning from the last of these, he traces the steps by which the family has grown into the state, and the original scattered society, becoming more and more civilised, has finally passed into military organizations like those of Crete and Sparta. His conception of the origin of states is far truer in the Laws than in the Republic; but it must be remembered that here he is giving an historical, there an ideal picture of the growth of society.
At the start of the third book, Plato suddenly raises the question, What is the origin of states? The answer is, Infinite time. We've already seen—in the Theaetetus, where he suggests that over ages every person has had countless ancestors, including kings and slaves, Greeks and barbarians; and in the Critias, where he mentions that nine thousand years have passed since the island of Atlantis battled Athens—that Plato is familiar with the idea of long time spans. He envisions human society being disrupted by natural disasters; and starting from the last of these, he outlines how the family evolved into the state, and how the initially scattered society, becoming increasingly civilized, eventually transformed into military organizations like those of Crete and Sparta. His view of the origin of states is much more accurate in the Laws than in the Republic; however, it’s important to note that here he presents a historical perspective, while there he offers an ideal vision of societal development.
Modern enquirers, like Plato, have found in infinite ages the explanation not only of states, but of languages, men, animals, the world itself; like him, also, they have detected in later institutions the vestiges of a patriarchal state still surviving. Thus far Plato speaks as 'the spectator of all time and all existence,' who may be thought by some divine instinct to have guessed at truths which were hereafter to be revealed. He is far above the vulgar notion that Hellas is the civilized world (Statesman), or that civilization only began when the Hellenes appeared on the scene. But he has no special knowledge of 'the days before the flood'; and when he approaches more historical times, in preparing the way for his own theory of mixed government, he argues partially and erroneously. He is desirous of showing that unlimited power is ruinous to any state, and hence he is led to attribute a tyrannical spirit to the first Dorian kings. The decay of Argos and the destruction of Messene are adduced by him as a manifest proof of their failure; and Sparta, he thinks, was only preserved by the limitations which the wisdom of successive legislators introduced into the government. But there is no more reason to suppose that the Dorian rule of life which was followed at Sparta ever prevailed in Argos and Messene, than to assume that Dorian institutions were framed to protect the Greeks against the power of Assyria; or that the empire of Assyria was in any way affected by the Trojan war; or that the return of the Heraclidae was only the return of Achaean exiles, who received a new name from their leader Dorieus. Such fancies were chiefly based, as far as they had any foundation, on the use of analogy, which played a great part in the dawn of historical and geographical research. Because there was a Persian empire which was the natural enemy of the Greek, there must also have been an Assyrian empire, which had a similar hostility; and not only the fable of the island of Atlantis, but the Trojan war, in Plato's mind derived some features from the Persian struggle. So Herodotus makes the Nile answer to the Ister, and the valley of the Nile to the Red Sea. In the Republic, Plato is flying in the air regardless of fact and possibility—in the Laws, he is making history by analogy. In the former, he appears to be like some modern philosophers, absolutely devoid of historical sense; in the latter, he is on a level, not with Thucydides, or the critical historians of Greece, but with Herodotus, or even with Ctesias.
Modern thinkers, like Plato, have found explanations not just for societies, but also for languages, humans, animals, and the world itself over endless ages. Like him, they have also noticed traces of a patriarchal society that still exist in later institutions. Up to this point, Plato speaks as "the observer of all time and all existence," who some may consider to have intuitively grasped truths that would later be revealed. He rises above the simplistic idea that Greece is the center of civilization (as in Statesman), or that civilization only began when the Greeks came onto the stage. However, he doesn’t have any special knowledge about "the days before the flood." When he gets closer to historical times, preparing for his theory on mixed government, he argues in a biased and incorrect way. He wants to demonstrate that absolute power is destructive to any state, which leads him to ascribe a tyrannical nature to the first Dorian kings. He cites the decline of Argos and the destruction of Messene as clear evidence of their failure, believing Sparta only survived due to the restrictions that wise legislators placed on the government. But there's no reason to think that the Dorian way of life practiced in Sparta was ever common in Argos and Messene, just as we shouldn't assume that Dorian systems were created to protect the Greeks from Assyrian power, or that Assyria was influenced by the Trojan war, or that the return of the Heraclidae was merely the homecoming of Achaean exiles who got a new name from their leader Dorieus. These ideas were largely based, when they had any basis at all, on analogies that played a major role in the early days of historical and geographical exploration. Just because there was a Persian empire that was naturally hostile to the Greeks, it doesn't mean there was also an Assyrian empire with a similar enmity; and not only the myth of Atlantis but also the Trojan war in Plato’s mind borrowed some features from the Persian conflict. Similarly, Herodotus makes the Nile correspond to the Ister, and the Nile Valley to the Red Sea. In the Republic, Plato is soaring through ideas without considering facts or possibilities; in the Laws, he is crafting history through analogy. In the former, he resembles some modern philosophers, completely lacking historical awareness; in the latter, he stands alongside Herodotus or even Ctesias, rather than with Thucydides or the critical historians of Greece.
The chief object of Plato in tracing the origin of society is to show the point at which regular government superseded the patriarchical authority, and the separate customs of different families were systematized by legislators, and took the form of laws consented to by them all. According to Plato, the only sound principle on which any government could be based was a mixture or balance of power. The balance of power saved Sparta, when the two other Heraclid states fell into disorder. Here is probably the first trace of a political idea, which has exercised a vast influence both in ancient and modern times. And yet we might fairly ask, a little parodying the language of Plato—O legislator, is unanimity only 'the struggle for existence'; or is the balance of powers in a state better than the harmony of them?
The main goal of Plato in exploring the origins of society is to demonstrate when organized government replaced patriarchal authority, and how the different customs of various families were organized by lawmakers into laws agreed upon by everyone. According to Plato, the only solid foundation for any government is a blend or balance of power. This balance preserved Sparta when the other Heraclid states fell into chaos. This is likely the earliest hint of a political idea that has had a significant impact both in ancient and modern times. Yet, we might justifiably ask, slightly parodying Plato's words—O legislator, is unanimity merely 'the struggle for survival'; or is the balance of powers within a state preferable to their harmony?
In the fourth book we approach the realities of politics, and Plato begins to ascend to the height of his great argument. The reign of Cronos has passed away, and various forms of government have succeeded, which are all based on self-interest and self-preservation. Right and wrong, instead of being measured by the will of God, are created by the law of the state. The strongest assertions are made of the purely spiritual nature of religion—'Without holiness no man is accepted of God'; and of the duty of filial obedience,—'Honour thy parents.' The legislator must teach these precepts as well as command them. He is to be the educator as well as the lawgiver of future ages, and his laws are themselves to form a part of the education of the state. Unlike the poet, he must be definite and rational; he cannot be allowed to say one thing at one time, and another thing at another—he must know what he is about. And yet legislation has a poetical or rhetorical element, and must find words which will wing their way to the hearts of men. Laws must be promulgated before they are put in execution, and mankind must be reasoned with before they are punished. The legislator, when he promulgates a particular law, will courteously entreat those who are willing to hear his voice. Upon the rebellious only does the heavy blow descend. A sermon and a law in one, blending the secular punishment with the religious sanction, appeared to Plato a new idea which might have a great result in reforming the world. The experiment had never been tried of reasoning with mankind; the laws of others had never had any preambles, and Plato seems to have great pleasure in contemplating his discovery.
In the fourth book, we delve into the realities of politics, and Plato starts to reach the peak of his main argument. The era of Cronos is long gone, and various types of government have taken its place, all rooted in self-interest and self-preservation. Right and wrong, rather than being defined by God's will, are shaped by the laws of the state. Strong statements are made about the purely spiritual nature of religion—'Without holiness, no one is accepted by God'—and the obligation of respecting one's parents—'Honor your parents.' The legislator needs to teach these principles as well as enforce them. He is meant to be both the educator and the lawmaker for future generations, and his laws should be part of the state's education. Unlike poets, he must be clear and rational; he can't say one thing at one moment and something different at another—he needs to be certain of his purpose. Yet, legislation has a poetic or rhetorical side and must use language that resonates with people's hearts. Laws must be announced before they are enforced, and people must be reasoned with before facing punishment. When the legislator announces a specific law, he will politely appeal to those willing to listen. Only the defiant face severe consequences. A combination of a sermon and a law, merging civil punishment with religious authority, seemed to Plato a novel concept that could greatly impact the reform of society. The idea of reasoning with people had never been attempted; other laws lacked preambles, and Plato appears to take great joy in his discovery.
In these quaint forms of thought and language, great principles of morals and legislation are enunciated by him for the first time. They all go back to mind and God, who holds the beginning, middle, and end of all things in His hand. The adjustment of the divine and human elements in the world is conceived in the spirit of modern popular philosophy, differing not much in the mode of expression. At first sight the legislator appears to be impotent, for all things are the sport of chance. But we admit also that God governs all things, and that chance and opportunity co-operate with Him (compare the saying, that chance is the name of the unknown cause). Lastly, while we acknowledge that God and chance govern mankind and provide the conditions of human action, experience will not allow us to deny a place to art. We know that there is a use in having a pilot, though the storm may overwhelm him; and a legislator is required to provide for the happiness of a state, although he will pray for favourable conditions under which he may exercise his art.
In these unique ways of thinking and speaking, he introduces significant ideas about morals and laws for the first time. They all trace back to the mind and God, who has control over the beginning, middle, and end of everything. The balance between the divine and human aspects of the world is understood in line with modern popular philosophy, which isn’t very different in how it expresses these ideas. At first glance, the lawmaker seems powerless, as everything appears to be in the hands of chance. But we also recognize that God oversees everything, and that chance and opportunity work alongside Him (consider the idea that chance is just a term for the unknown cause). Ultimately, while we accept that God and chance influence humanity and shape the conditions for human actions, our experiences make it clear that art has its place too. We understand the value of having a pilot even if a storm may overcome him; similarly, a lawmaker is needed to ensure the happiness of a society, even as he hopes for favorable conditions in which to practice his craft.
BOOK V. Hear now, all ye who heard the laws about Gods and ancestors: Of all human possessions the soul is most divine, and most truly a man's own. For in every man there are two parts—a better which rules, and an inferior which serves; and the ruler is to be preferred to the servant. Wherefore I bid every one next after the Gods to honour his own soul, and he can only honour her by making her better. A man does not honour his soul by flattery, or gifts, or self-indulgence, or conceit of knowledge, nor when he blames others for his own errors; nor when he indulges in pleasure or refuses to bear pain; nor when he thinks that life at any price is a good, because he fears the world below, which, far from being an evil, may be the greatest good; nor when he prefers beauty to virtue—not reflecting that the soul, which came from heaven, is more honourable than the body, which is earth-born; nor when he covets dishonest gains, of which no amount is equal in value to virtue;—in a word, when he counts that which the legislator pronounces evil to be good, he degrades his soul, which is the divinest part of him. He does not consider that the real punishment of evil-doing is to grow like evil men, and to shun the conversation of the good: and that he who is joined to such men must do and suffer what they by nature do and say to one another, which suffering is not justice but retribution. For justice is noble, but retribution is only the companion of injustice. And whether a man escapes punishment or not, he is equally miserable; for in the one case he is not cured, and in the other case he perishes that the rest may be saved.
BOOK V. Listen now, all of you who have heard the rules about gods and ancestors: Of all human possessions, the soul is the most divine and truly the most personal. Every person has two aspects—one that is better and rules, and one that is lesser and serves; the better aspect should be prioritized over the lesser. Therefore, I urge everyone, next to the gods, to honor their own soul, and they can only do this by improving it. A person does not honor their soul through flattery, gifts, self-indulgence, or arrogance about knowledge, nor by blaming others for their own mistakes; nor by seeking pleasure or avoiding pain; nor by believing that life is good at any cost because they fear the afterlife, which, rather than being bad, could be the greatest good; nor by valuing beauty over virtue—forgetting that the soul, which comes from heaven, is more esteemed than the body, which is born of the earth; nor by desiring dishonest gains, as no amount of these is worth as much as virtue;—in brief, when someone considers what the law calls evil to be good, they degrade their soul, the most divine part of themselves. They do not recognize that the true punishment for wrongdoing is becoming like wrongdoers and avoiding the company of the good: and that anyone affiliated with such people must do and endure what they naturally do and say to one another, which suffering is not justice but retribution. For justice is noble, while retribution is just a companion to injustice. And whether a person escapes punishment or not, they are equally unhappy; for in one case they are not healed, and in the other, they suffer so that others may be saved.
The glory of man is to follow the better and improve the inferior. And the soul is that part of man which is most inclined to avoid the evil and dwell with the good. Wherefore also the soul is second only to the Gods in honour, and in the third place the body is to be esteemed, which often has a false honour. For honour is not to be given to the fair or the strong, or the swift or the tall, or to the healthy, any more than to their opposites, but to the mean states of all these habits; and so of property and external goods. No man should heap up riches that he may leave them to his children. The best condition for them as for the state is a middle one, in which there is a freedom without luxury. And the best inheritance of children is modesty. But modesty cannot be implanted by admonition only—the elders must set the example. He who would train the young must first train himself.
The greatness of a person lies in striving for the better and improving what is lacking. The soul is that part of a person most inclined to shun evil and embrace good. Therefore, the soul is honored just below the Gods, while the body is valued third, often based on a misleading sense of honor. Honor shouldn’t be given to the beautiful, strong, fast, tall, or healthy people any more than to their opposites, but rather to the balanced states of all these traits; the same goes for wealth and material possessions. No one should accumulate riches just to leave them to their children. The best situation for them, as well as for society, is a balanced one where there's freedom without extravagance. The best inheritance for children is modesty. However, modesty cannot be instilled through advice alone—older generations must lead by example. Anyone who wants to guide the young must first work on themselves.
He who honours his kindred and family may fairly expect that the Gods will give him children. He who would have friends must think much of their favours to him, and little of his to them. He who prefers to an Olympic, or any other victory, to win the palm of obedience to the laws, serves best both the state and his fellow-citizens. Engagements with strangers are to be deemed most sacred, because the stranger, having neither kindred nor friends, is immediately under the protection of Zeus, the God of strangers. A prudent man will not sin against the stranger; and still more carefully will he avoid sinning against the suppliant, which is an offence never passed over by the Gods.
Those who respect their relatives and family can reasonably expect that the Gods will grant them children. To have friends, one must value their support more than their own contributions to the friendship. Those who prioritize obeying the laws over achieving an Olympic or any other victory serve their community and fellow citizens best. Relationships with outsiders are to be considered very important, as the stranger, lacking family or friends, is under the immediate protection of Zeus, the God of strangers. A wise person will not wrong a stranger; even more so, they will be especially careful not to wrong a supplicant, as this is a wrongdoing that the Gods never overlook.
I will now speak of those particulars which are matters of praise and blame only, and which, although not enforced by the law, greatly affect the disposition to obey the law. Truth has the first place among the gifts of Gods and men, for truth begets trust; but he is not to be trusted who loves voluntary falsehood, and he who loves involuntary falsehood is a fool. Neither the ignorant nor the untrustworthy man is happy; for they have no friends in life, and die unlamented and untended. Good is he who does no injustice—better who prevents others from doing any—best of all who joins the rulers in punishing injustice. And this is true of goods and virtues in general; he who has and communicates them to others is the man of men; he who would, if he could, is second-best; he who has them and is jealous of imparting them to others is to be blamed, but the good or virtue which he has is to be valued still. Let every man contend in the race without envy; for the unenvious man increases the strength of the city; himself foremost in the race, he harms no one with calumny. Whereas the envious man is weak himself, and drives his rivals to despair with his slanders, thus depriving the whole city of incentives to the exercise of virtue, and tarnishing her glory. Every man should be gentle, but also passionate; for he must have the spirit to fight against incurable and malignant evil. But the evil which is remediable should be dealt with more in sorrow than anger. He who is unjust is to be pitied in any case; for no man voluntarily does evil or allows evil to exist in his soul. And therefore he who deals with the curable sort must be long-suffering and forbearing; but the incurable shall have the vials of our wrath poured out upon him. The greatest of all evils is self-love, which is thought to be natural and excusable, and is enforced as a duty, and yet is the cause of many errors. The lover is blinded about the beloved, and prefers his own interests to truth and right; but the truly great man seeks justice before all things. Self-love is the source of that ignorant conceit of knowledge which is always doing and never succeeding. Wherefore let every man avoid self-love, and follow the guidance of those who are better than himself. There are lesser matters which a man should recall to mind; for wisdom is like a stream, ever flowing in and out, and recollection flows in when knowledge is failing. Let no man either laugh or grieve overmuch; but let him control his feelings in the day of good- or ill-fortune, believing that the Gods will diminish the evils and increase the blessings of the righteous. These are thoughts which should ever occupy a good man's mind; he should remember them both in lighter and in more serious hours, and remind others of them.
I will now talk about those specific things that are matters of praise and blame only, which, although not enforced by law, significantly influence the willingness to obey the law. Truth holds the top spot among the gifts from the gods and humans, as truth fosters trust; however, someone who loves intentional lies cannot be trusted, and someone who loves unintentional lies is a fool. Neither the ignorant nor the untrustworthy person is happy; they have no friends in life and die without anyone to mourn or care for them. A good person is one who commits no injustice—better is the one who prevents others from doing injustice—and best of all is the one who supports the rulers in punishing injustice. This holds true for all good deeds and virtues in general; the one who possesses them and shares them with others is the greatest of all; the one who desires to help but cannot is the second best; and the one who possesses them and refuses to share is to be criticized, even though the goodness or virtue they have should still be valued. Let every person compete without envy; for the unjealous person strengthens the community; as he leads in the race, he harms no one through gossip. In contrast, the envious person is weak himself and drives his rivals to despair with his slander, robbing the entire community of motivation to act virtuously and tarnishing its reputation. Every person should be gentle but also passionate; for one must have the spirit to battle against deep-rooted and harmful evil. However, the evil that can be fixed should be addressed with more sadness than anger. The unjust should be pitied in any case; for no one willingly does evil or allows evil to persist within them. Therefore, those who address the fixable must be patient and tolerant; but the incurable will face our full wrath. The greatest of all evils is self-love, which is seen as natural and excusable and treated as a duty, yet it causes many mistakes. The lover is blinded by their affections and prioritizes their own interests over truth and right; but the truly great person seeks justice above all. Self-love is the root of that ignorant arrogance about knowledge which is always acting but never achieving. Therefore, let everyone avoid self-love and follow the guidance of those who are better than themselves. There are minor matters that one should remember; for wisdom is like a stream, constantly ebbing and flowing, and recollection surfaces when knowledge fades. Let no one either laugh or grieve excessively; instead, let them manage their emotions during both good and bad times, believing that the gods will lessen the hardships and enhance the blessings of the righteous. These are the thoughts that should continually occupy a good person's mind; they should remember them both in happy and serious times, and remind others of them.
So much of divine matters and the relation of man to God. But man is man, and dependent on pleasure and pain; and therefore to acquire a true taste respecting either is a great matter. And what is a true taste? This can only be explained by a comparison of one life with another. Pleasure is an object of desire, pain of avoidance; and the absence of pain is to be preferred to pain, but not to pleasure. There are infinite kinds and degrees of both of them, and we choose the life which has more pleasure and avoid that which has less; but we do not choose that life in which the elements of pleasure are either feeble or equally balanced with pain. All the lives which we desire are pleasant; the choice of any others is due to inexperience.
So much of spirituality and the relationship between humans and God. But humans are just humans, reliant on pleasure and pain; therefore, developing a true understanding of both is really important. And what does a true understanding mean? It can only be clarified through comparing different lives. Pleasure is something we crave, while pain is what we want to avoid; and not having pain is better than experiencing pain, but it isn't better than having pleasure. There are countless types and levels of both, and we tend to choose lives that offer more pleasure and steer clear of those that provide less; however, we don’t pick lives where the elements of pleasure are weak or equally matched with pain. All the lives we desire are enjoyable; choosing any other type comes from lack of experience.
Now there are four lives—the temperate, the rational, the courageous, the healthful; and to these let us oppose four others—the intemperate, the foolish, the cowardly, the diseased. The temperate life has gentle pains and pleasures and placid desires, the intemperate life has violent delights, and still more violent desires. And the pleasures of the temperate exceed the pains, while the pains of the intemperate exceed the pleasures. But if this is true, none are voluntarily intemperate, but all who lack temperance are either ignorant or wanting in self-control: for men always choose the life which (as they think) exceeds in pleasure. The wise, the healthful, the courageous life have a similar advantage—they also exceed their opposites in pleasure. And, generally speaking, the life of virtue is far more pleasurable and honourable, fairer and happier far, than the life of vice. Let this be the preamble of our laws; the strain will follow.
Now there are four types of lives—the balanced, the sensible, the brave, and the healthy; and we can contrast these with four others—the excessive, the foolish, the cowardly, and the unhealthy. The balanced life comes with mild pains and pleasures and calm desires, while the excessive life has intense pleasures and even more intense desires. The pleasures of the balanced life outweigh the pains, whereas the pains of the excessive life outweigh the pleasures. If this is accurate, no one chooses to live excessively; rather, those who lack self-control are either unaware or unable to manage their desires: people tend to choose the life they believe offers the most pleasure. The wise, healthy, and brave life has a similar edge—they also provide more pleasure than their opposites. Generally, living virtuously is much more pleasurable and honorable, more fulfilling and happier, than living in vice. Let this serve as the introduction to our laws; the details will follow.
As in a web the warp is stronger than the woof, so should the rulers be stronger than their half-educated subjects. Let us suppose, then, that in the constitution of a state there are two parts, the appointment of the rulers, and the laws which they have to administer. But, before going further, there are some preliminary matters which have to be considered.
As in a web, the warp is stronger than the weft, so should the rulers be stronger than their semi-educated citizens. Let’s assume that in the structure of a state, there are two components: the selection of the rulers and the laws they need to enforce. However, before we proceed, there are some initial points that need to be addressed.
As of animals, so also of men, a selection must be made; the bad breed must be got rid of, and the good retained. The legislator must purify them, and if he be not a despot he will find this task to be a difficult one. The severer kinds of purification are practised when great offenders are punished by death or exile, but there is a milder process which is necessary when the poor show a disposition to attack the property of the rich, for then the legislator will send them off to another land, under the name of a colony. In our case, however, we shall only need to purify the streams before they meet. This is often a troublesome business, but in theory we may suppose the operation performed, and the desired purity attained. Evil men we will hinder from coming, and receive the good as friends.
Just like with animals, we also need to make a choice about people; we should get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones. The lawmaker must purify them, and if he's not a dictator, he will find this task challenging. The harsher forms of purification happen when serious offenders are punished with death or exile, but there’s a gentler approach needed when the poor seem inclined to threaten the property of the wealthy. In that case, the lawmaker may relocate them to another place, calling it a colony. However, in our situation, we only need to purify the streams before they come together. This can be a tricky task, but in theory, we can assume that the process has been completed and the desired purity achieved. We will keep the bad people from coming and welcome the good ones as friends.
Like the old Heraclid colony, we are fortunate in escaping the abolition of debts and the distribution of land, which are difficult and dangerous questions. But, perhaps, now that we are speaking of the subject, we ought to say how, if the danger existed, the legislator should try to avert it. He would have recourse to prayers, and trust to the healing influence of time. He would create a kindly spirit between creditors and debtors: those who have should give to those who have not, and poverty should be held to be rather the increase of a man's desires than the diminution of his property. Good-will is the only safe and enduring foundation of the political society; and upon this our city shall be built. The lawgiver, if he is wise, will not proceed with the arrangement of the state until all disputes about property are settled. And for him to introduce fresh grounds of quarrel would be madness.
Like the old Heraclid colony, we’re lucky to avoid the cancellation of debts and the redistribution of land, which are tough and risky issues. But now that we’re on the topic, we should discuss how, if the threat were real, the legislator should work to prevent it. He would turn to prayers and rely on the healing power of time. He would foster a positive relationship between creditors and debtors: those who have should help those who don’t, and poverty should be viewed more as a person’s increased desires rather than a decrease in their wealth. Goodwill is the only stable and lasting foundation for political society, and on this, our city will be built. A wise lawmaker won’t move forward with organizing the state until all property disputes are resolved. Introducing new sources of conflict would be insane.
Let us now proceed to the distribution of our state, and determine the size of the territory and the number of the allotments. The territory should be sufficient to maintain the citizens in moderation, and the population should be numerous enough to defend themselves, and sometimes to aid their neighbours. We will fix the number of citizens at 5040, to which the number of houses and portions of land shall correspond. Let the number be divided into two parts and then into three; for it is very convenient for the purposes of distribution, and is capable of fifty-nine divisions, ten of which proceed without interval from one to ten. Here are numbers enough for war and peace, and for all contracts and dealings. These properties of numbers are true, and should be ascertained with a view to use.
Let's move on to the setup of our community and figure out the size of the land and the number of divisions. The land should be enough to support the citizens reasonably, and the population needs to be large enough for self-defense and occasionally to help their neighbors. We’ll set the citizen count at 5,040, and this number will determine how many houses and plots of land we have. Let’s split the number into two parts and then into three; this method makes distribution easier and can accommodate fifty-nine divisions, ten of which follow consecutively from one to ten. This gives us plenty of numbers for both war and peace, along with all kinds of agreements and transactions. These numerical properties are valid and should be understood for practical use.
In carrying out the distribution of the land, a prudent legislator will be careful to respect any provision for religious worship which has been sanctioned by ancient tradition or by the oracles of Delphi, Dodona, or Ammon. All sacrifices, and altars, and temples, whatever may be their origin, should remain as they are. Every division should have a patron God or hero; to these a portion of the domain should be appropriated, and at their temples the inhabitants of the districts should meet together from time to time, for the sake of mutual help and friendship. All the citizens of a state should be known to one another; for where men are in the dark about each other's characters, there can be no justice or right administration. Every man should be true and single-minded, and should not allow himself to be deceived by others.
In distributing the land, a wise lawmaker will be careful to respect any provisions for religious worship established by ancient tradition or by the oracles of Delphi, Dodona, or Ammon. All sacrifices, altars, and temples, regardless of their origin, should remain unchanged. Each division should have a patron God or hero; part of the land should be allocated to them, and the residents of the areas should gather at their temples from time to time for mutual support and friendship. All citizens of a state should know each other; where people are unaware of one another's character, there can be no justice or proper governance. Everyone should be honest and straightforward, and should not allow themselves to be misled by others.
And now the game opens, and we begin to move the pieces. At first sight, our constitution may appear singular and ill-adapted to a legislator who has not despotic power; but on second thoughts will be deemed to be, if not the very best, the second best. For there are three forms of government, a first, a second, and a third best, out of which Cleinias has now to choose. The first and highest form is that in which friends have all things in common, including wives and property,—in which they have common fears, hopes, desires, and do not even call their eyes or their hands their own. This is the ideal state; than which there never can be a truer or better—a state, whether inhabited by Gods or sons of Gods, which will make the dwellers therein blessed. Here is the pattern on which we must ever fix our eyes; but we are now concerned with another, which comes next to it, and we will afterwards proceed to a third.
And now the game begins, and we start moving the pieces. At first glance, our constitution might seem strange and poorly suited for a legislator without despotic power; however, upon reflection, it will be regarded as, if not the best, then the second best option. There are three forms of government: first, second, and third best, from which Cleinias has to choose. The first and best form is where friends share everything in common, including spouses and property—where they share fears, hopes, and desires, and don’t even consider their eyes or hands to be their own. This is the ideal state; there can never be a truer or better one— a state, whether inhabited by gods or godlike beings, that will make its residents happy. This is the model we should always focus on; however, we are currently dealing with another form, the one that comes next, and we will later discuss a third.
Inasmuch as our citizens are not fitted either by nature or education to receive the saying, Friends have all things in common, let them retain their houses and private property, but use them in the service of their country, who is their God and parent, and of the Gods and demigods of the land. Their first care should be to preserve the number of their lots. This may be secured in the following manner: when the possessor of a lot dies, he shall leave his lot to his best-beloved child, who will become the heir of all duties and interests, and will minister to the Gods and to the family, to the living and to the dead. Of the remaining children, the females must be given in marriage according to the law to be hereafter enacted; the males may be assigned to citizens who have no children of their own. How to equalize families and allotments will be one of the chief cares of the guardians of the laws. When parents have too many children they may give to those who have none, or couples may abstain from having children, or, if there is a want of offspring, special care may be taken to obtain them; or if the number of citizens becomes excessive, we may send away the surplus to found a colony. If, on the other hand, a war or plague diminishes the number of inhabitants, new citizens must be introduced; and these ought not, if possible, to be men of low birth or inferior training; but even God, it is said, cannot always fight against necessity.
Since our citizens are not naturally or educationally prepared to accept the idea that friends share everything, let's allow them to keep their homes and personal property, but they should use them to serve their country, which is like their God and parent, as well as the deities and heroes of the land. Their top priority should be to maintain the number of their properties. This can be ensured in the following way: when a property owner dies, they should leave their lot to their most beloved child, who will inherit all the responsibilities and interests, and will honor the Gods and the family, both the living and the dead. The remaining children, the daughters, must be married off according to the law that will be established later; the sons can be assigned to citizens without children. One of the main responsibilities of the guardians of the laws will be to balance families and property distributions. When parents have too many children, they can give some to those who can't have any, or couples may choose not to have children, or if there is a shortage of offspring, special efforts can be made to obtain them; or if the number of citizens becomes too high, we can send the excess away to start a colony. Conversely, if a war or plague reduces the population, we must introduce new citizens; ideally, these should not be of low birth or poor background, but it is said that even God cannot always fight against necessity.
Wherefore we will thus address our citizens:—Good friends, honour order and equality, and above all the number 5040. Secondly, respect the original division of the lots, which must not be infringed by buying and selling, for the law says that the land which a man has is sacred and is given to him by God. And priests and priestesses will offer frequent sacrifices and pray that he who alienates either house or lot may receive the punishment which he deserves, and their prayers shall be inscribed on tablets of cypress-wood for the instruction of posterity. The guardians will keep a vigilant watch over the citizens, and they will punish those who disobey God and the law.
So, we will speak to our citizens like this: —Dear friends, value honor, order, and equality, and most importantly, the number 5040. Secondly, respect the original division of the lots, which shouldn't be violated through buying and selling, because the law states that the land a person possesses is sacred and given to them by God. Priests and priestesses will frequently make sacrifices and pray that anyone who sells or transfers their house or lot faces the punishment they deserve, and their prayers will be recorded on cypress-wood tablets for the guidance of future generations. The guardians will closely monitor the citizens and will punish those who disobey God and the law.
To appreciate the benefit of such an institution a man requires to be well educated; for he certainly will not make a fortune in our state, in which all illiberal occupations are forbidden to freemen. The law also provides that no private person shall have gold or silver, except a little coin for daily use, which will not pass current in other countries. The state must also possess a common Hellenic currency, but this is only to be used in defraying the expenses of expeditions, or of embassies, or while a man is on foreign travels; but in the latter case he must deliver up what is over, when he comes back, to the treasury in return for an equal amount of local currency, on pain of losing the sum in question; and he who does not inform against an offender is to be mulcted in a like sum. No money is to be given or taken as a dowry, or to be lent on interest. The law will not protect a man in recovering either interest or principal. All these regulations imply that the aim of the legislator is not to make the city as rich or as mighty as possible, but the best and happiest. Now men can hardly be at the same time very virtuous and very rich. And why? Because he who makes twice as much and saves twice as much as he ought, receiving where he ought not and not spending where he ought, will be at least twice as rich as he who makes money where he ought, and spends where he ought. On the other hand, an utterly bad man is generally profligate and poor, while he who acquires honestly, and spends what he acquires on noble objects, can hardly be very rich. A very rich man is therefore not a good man, and therefore not a happy one. But the object of our laws is to make the citizens as friendly and happy as possible, which they cannot be if they are always at law and injuring each other in the pursuit of gain. And therefore we say that there is to be no silver or gold in the state, nor usury, nor the rearing of the meaner kinds of live-stock, but only agriculture, and only so much of this as will not lead men to neglect that for the sake of which money is made, first the soul and afterwards the body; neither of which are good for much without music and gymnastic. Money is to be held in honour last or third; the highest interests being those of the soul, and in the second class are to be ranked those of the body. This is the true order of legislation, which would be inverted by placing health before temperance, and wealth before health.
To understand the value of such an institution, a person needs to be well-educated; since in our state, making a fortune is unlikely, as all unworthy jobs are banned for free people. The law also states that no private individual can possess gold or silver except for a small amount for everyday use, which won't be accepted in other countries. The state must have a common Hellenic currency, but it's only to be used for funding expeditions, embassies, or while traveling abroad; in the latter case, you must return any leftover amount to the treasury when you come back, in exchange for an equal amount of local currency, or risk losing that amount. Anyone who fails to report an offender will face a similar penalty. No money is allowed to be given or received as a dowry, nor can it be lent with interest. The law won't support a person in recovering either interest or principal. All these regulations suggest that the legislator's goal isn't to make the city as rich or powerful as possible, but rather the best and happiest one. A person can rarely be both very virtuous and very rich. Why? Because someone who earns and saves more than necessary—taking where they shouldn’t and not spending where they should—will end up at least twice as wealthy as someone who earns and spends appropriately. On the flip side, a completely immoral person is often reckless and poor, while someone who earns honestly and spends on worthy causes will hardly be very rich. Thus, a very wealthy person is not necessarily a good person, and therefore not a happy one. The purpose of our laws is to ensure that citizens are as friendly and happy as possible, which can’t happen if they are constantly in conflict and harming each other for profit. Therefore, we assert that there should be no silver or gold in the state, no usury, and no breeding of lower types of livestock, but only agriculture, and only in amounts that don't cause people to neglect what truly matters: first the soul, and then the body—both of which aren't very valuable without music and physical training. Money should be valued last or third; the top priority should be the soul, with the body following as second. This represents the correct order of legislation, which would be disrupted by prioritizing health over moderation, or wealth over health.
It might be well if every man could come to the colony having equal property; but equality is impossible, and therefore we must avoid causes of offence by having property valued and by equalizing taxation. To this end, let us make four classes in which the citizens may be placed according to the measure of their original property, and the changes of their fortune. The greatest of evils is revolution; and this, as the law will say, is caused by extremes of poverty or wealth. The limit of poverty shall be the lot, which must not be diminished, and may be increased fivefold, but not more. He who exceeds the limit must give up the excess to the state; but if he does not, and is informed against, the surplus shall be divided between the informer and the Gods, and he shall pay a sum equal to the surplus out Of his own property. All property other than the lot must be inscribed in a register, so that any disputes which arise may be easily determined.
It would be ideal if everyone could arrive in the colony with equal wealth; however, equality is unattainable. Therefore, we should minimize conflicts by assessing property values and standardizing taxation. To achieve this, let’s establish four classes for citizens based on their initial wealth and changes in their financial situation. The worst outcome is revolution, which, according to the law, is triggered by extreme poverty or wealth. The threshold for poverty will be a fixed amount that cannot be reduced, but it can increase up to five times that amount. Anyone who surpasses this limit must surrender the excess to the state; if they fail to do so and someone reports them, the surplus will be split between the informant and the Gods, and they must pay an amount equal to the surplus from their own assets. All property besides the fixed amount must be recorded in a register so that any disputes can be resolved easily.
The city shall be placed in a suitable situation, as nearly as possible in the centre of the country, and shall be divided into twelve wards. First, we will erect an acropolis, encircled by a wall, within which shall be placed the temples of Hestia, and Zeus, and Athene. From this shall be drawn lines dividing the city, and also the country, into twelve sections, and the country shall be subdivided into 5040 lots. Each lot shall contain two parts, one at a distance, the other near the city; and the distance of one part shall be compensated by the nearness of the other, the badness and goodness by the greater or less size. Twelve lots will be assigned to twelve Gods, and they will give their names to the tribes. The divisions of the city shall correspond to those of the country; and every man shall have two habitations, one near the centre of the country, the other at the extremity.
The city will be located in a suitable spot, as close to the center of the country as possible, and divided into twelve wards. First, we will build an acropolis, surrounded by a wall, where the temples of Hestia, Zeus, and Athene will be situated. From this point, lines will be drawn to divide the city and the surrounding area into twelve sections, and the land will be split into 5040 lots. Each lot will have two parts: one farther away and one close to the city; the distance of one part will be balanced by the proximity of the other, and any negative or positive aspects will be adjusted by the size of each lot. Twelve lots will be allocated to twelve gods, who will give their names to the tribes. The layout of the city will match that of the countryside, and everyone will have two homes: one near the center of the country, and the other at its edge.
The objection will naturally arise, that all the advantages of which we have been speaking will never concur. The citizens will not tolerate a settlement in which they are deprived of gold and silver, and have the number of their families regulated, and the sites of their houses fixed by law. It will be said that our city is a mere image of wax. And the legislator will answer: 'I know it, but I maintain that we ought to set forth an ideal which is as perfect as possible. If difficulties arise in the execution of the plan, we must avoid them and carry out the remainder. But the legislator must first be allowed to complete his idea without interruption.'
The objection will naturally come up that all the benefits we’ve discussed will never come together. Citizens won’t accept a setup where they are stripped of gold and silver, have their family sizes controlled, and their house locations dictated by law. It will be said that our city is just a fantasy. And the legislator will respond, “I understand, but I believe we should present an ideal that is as perfect as possible. If challenges come up in carrying out the plan, we should navigate around them and implement what we can. But the legislator should first be allowed to finish his vision without disruption.”
The number twelve, which we have chosen for the number of division, must run through all parts of the state,—phratries, villages, ranks of soldiers, coins, and measures wet and dry, which are all to be made commensurable with one another. There is no meanness in requiring that the smallest vessels should have a common measure; for the divisions of number are useful in measuring height and depth, as well as sounds and motions, upwards or downwards, or round and round. The legislator should impress on his citizens the value of arithmetic. No instrument of education has so much power; nothing more tends to sharpen and inspire the dull intellect. But the legislator must be careful to instil a noble and generous spirit into the students, or they will tend to become cunning rather than wise. This may be proved by the example of the Egyptians and Phoenicians, who, notwithstanding their knowledge of arithmetic, are degraded in their general character; whether this defect in them is due to some natural cause or to a bad legislator. For it is clear that there are great differences in the power of regions to produce good men: heat and cold, and water and food, have great effects both on body and soul; and those spots are peculiarly fortunate in which the air is holy, and the Gods are pleased to dwell. To all this the legislator must attend, so far as in him lies.
The number twelve, which we’ve selected for our divisions, needs to be consistent across all parts of the state—like neighborhoods, villages, military ranks, currency, and measurements for liquids and solids, which should all be comparable to each other. It’s not unreasonable to expect that even the smallest containers should share a common measure; the divisions of numbers help us measure height and depth, as well as sounds and movements, whether up, down, or in circles. The lawmaker should teach his citizens the importance of arithmetic. No educational tool is more powerful; nothing else sharpens and motivates a dull mind like it. However, the lawmaker must ensure that he instills a noble and generous spirit in students, or else they may end up being more clever than wise. This can be seen in the example of the Egyptians and Phoenicians, who, despite their knowledge of arithmetic, have a lower reputation overall; it's unclear whether this is due to some natural flaw or poor legislation. It’s evident that different regions have varying abilities to produce good people: heat, cold, water, and food greatly influence both body and spirit; and those areas are especially fortunate where the air is pure, and the gods are happy to reside. The lawmaker must take all of this into account, as much as he can.
BOOK VI. And now we are about to consider (1) the appointment of magistrates; (2) the laws which they will have to administer must be determined. I may observe by the way that laws, however good, are useless and even injurious unless the magistrates are capable of executing them. And therefore (1) the intended rulers of our imaginary state should be tested from their youth upwards until the time of their election; and (2) those who are to elect them ought to be trained in habits of law, that they may form a right judgment of good and bad men. But uneducated colonists, who are unacquainted with each other, will not be likely to choose well. What, then, shall we do? I will tell you: The colony will have to be intrusted to the ten commissioners, of whom you are one, and I will help you and them, which is my reason for inventing this romance. And I cannot bear that the tale should go wandering about the world without a head,—it will be such an ugly monster. 'Very good.' Yes; and I will be as good as my word, if God be gracious and old age permit. But let us not forget what a courageously mad creation this our city is. 'What makes you say so?' Why, surely our courage is shown in imagining that the new colonists will quietly receive our laws? For no man likes to receive laws when they are first imposed: could we only wait until those who had been educated under them were grown up, and of an age to vote in the public elections, there would be far greater reason to expect permanence in our institutions. 'Very true.' The Cnosian founders should take the utmost pains in the matter of the colony, and in the election of the higher officers, particularly of the guardians of the law. The latter should be appointed in this way: The Cnosians, who take the lead in the colony, together with the colonists, will choose thirty-seven persons, of whom nineteen will be colonists, and the remaining eighteen Cnosians—you must be one of the eighteen yourself, and become a citizen of the new state. 'Why do not you and Megillus join us?' Athens is proud, and Sparta too; and they are both a long way off. But let me proceed with my scheme. When the state is permanently established, the mode of election will be as follows: All who are serving, or have served, in the army will be electors; and the election will be held in the most sacred of the temples. The voter will place on the altar a tablet, inscribing thereupon the name of the candidate whom he prefers, and of his father, tribe, and ward, writing at the side of them his own name in like manner; and he may take away any tablet which does not appear written to his mind, and place it in the Agora for thirty days. The 300 who obtain the greatest number of votes will be publicly announced, and out of them there will be a second election of 100; and out of the 100 a third and final election of thirty-seven, accompanied by the solemnity of the electors passing through victims. But then who is to arrange all this? There is a common saying, that the beginning is half the whole; and I should say a good deal more than half. 'Most true.' The only way of making a beginning is from the parent city; and though in after ages the tie may be broken, and quarrels may arise between them, yet in early days the child naturally looks to the mother for care and education. And, as I said before, the Cnosians ought to take an interest in the colony, and select 100 elders of their own citizens, to whom shall be added 100 of the colonists, to arrange and supervise the first elections and scrutinies; and when the colony has been started, the Cnosians may return home and leave the colonists to themselves.
BOOK VI. Now we’re going to look at (1) how to choose magistrates; (2) we need to determine the laws they will enforce. I should point out that no matter how good the laws are, they’re useless and can even be harmful if the magistrates aren’t capable of enforcing them. So, (1) the rulers of our imagined state should be evaluated from a young age all the way up to their election; and (2) those who will elect them should be trained in legal principles so they can make good judgments about right and wrong. But if the colonists are uneducated and don’t know each other well, they probably won’t make good choices. What should we do then? I’ll tell you: The colony should be entrusted to the ten commissioners, one of whom is you, and I’ll support you all, which is why I’m creating this story. I can’t stand the thought of it being out in the world without a clear direction—it would be such an eyesore. 'That’s fair.' Yes, and I will keep my promise, if God allows and if I live long enough. But let’s not forget what a boldly ambitious idea this city of ours is. 'Why do you say that?' Because our bravery is demonstrated in believing that the new colonists will willingly accept our laws. After all, people generally don’t like receiving laws that are forced upon them. If we could just wait for those educated under these laws to grow up and be of voting age, we would have a much better chance of establishing lasting institutions. 'That’s very true.' The founders from Cnosus should put in maximum effort regarding the colony and the election of higher officials, particularly the guardians of the law. They should be appointed this way: The leading Cnosians, along with the colonists, will select thirty-seven candidates, consisting of nineteen colonists and eighteen Cnosians—you must be one of the eighteen and become a citizen of the new state. 'Why don’t you and Megillus join us?' Athens is proud, as is Sparta; both are far away. But let me continue with my plan. Once the state is firmly established, elections will be held as follows: All current or former military members will be eligible to vote, and the voting will take place in the most sacred temple. Voters will place a tablet on the altar, writing the name of their chosen candidate, along with the candidate’s father, tribe, and ward, and they will write their own name in the same way beside it. They may remove any tablet they don’t agree with and place it in the Agora for thirty days. The three hundred candidates with the highest votes will be announced publicly, and from them, a second election will narrow it down to one hundred; then, from those one hundred, a final election will select thirty-seven, complete with the ceremony of the electors passing through victims. But who will organize all of this? There’s a common saying that the start is half the battle; I’d say it’s more than half. 'That’s definitely true.' The best way to get started is through the parent city; even though relationships may weaken and conflicts may arise later, in the beginning, the child naturally looks to its parent for support and education. As I mentioned earlier, the Cnosians should take an interest in the colony and select one hundred elders from their citizens, along with one hundred colonists, to set up and oversee the first elections and evaluations; after the colony is established, the Cnosians may return home and leave the colonists to manage their own affairs.
The thirty-seven magistrates who have been elected in the manner described, shall have the following duties: first, they shall be guardians of the law; secondly, of the registers of property in the four classes—not including the one, two, three, four minae, which are allowed as a surplus. He who is found to possess what is not entered in the registers, in addition to the confiscation of such property shall be proceeded against by law, and if he be cast he shall lose his share in the public property and in distributions of money; and his sentence shall be inscribed in some public place. The guardians are to continue in office twenty years only, and to commence holding office at fifty years, or if elected at sixty they are not to remain after seventy.
The thirty-seven magistrates elected as described will have the following responsibilities: first, they will be guardians of the law; second, they will oversee the property registers across the four classes—not including the one, two, three, and four minae allowed as a surplus. Anyone found in possession of unregistered property will face confiscation of that property and legal action, and if convicted, they will lose their share of public property and any cash distributions; their sentence will be publicly recorded. The guardians will serve for only twenty years, starting their term at fifty years old, or if elected at sixty, they will step down after seventy.
Generals have now to be elected, and commanders of horse and brigadiers of foot. The generals shall be natives of the city, proposed by the guardians of the law, and elected by those who are or have been of the age for military service. Any one may challenge the person nominated and start another candidate, whom he affirms upon oath to be better qualified. The three who obtain the greatest number of votes shall be elected. The generals thus elected shall propose the taxiarchs or brigadiers, and the challenge may be made, and the voting shall take place, in the same manner as before. The elective assembly will be presided over in the first instance, and until the prytanes and council come into being, by the guardians of the law in some holy place; and they shall divide the citizens into three divisions,—hoplites, cavalry, and the rest of the army—placing each of them by itself. All are to vote for generals and cavalry officers. The brigadiers are to be voted for only by the hoplites. Next, the cavalry are to choose phylarchs for the generals; but captains of archers and other irregular troops are to be appointed by the generals themselves. The cavalry-officers shall be proposed and voted upon by the same persons who vote for the generals. The two who have the greatest number of votes shall be leaders of all the horse. Disputes about the voting may be raised once or twice, but, if a third time, the presiding officers shall decide.
Generals will now be elected, along with commanders for cavalry and infantry leaders. The generals must be locals, recommended by the guardians of the law, and voted on by those who are currently or have been of military age. Anyone can challenge a nominee and propose another candidate, affirming with an oath that the new candidate is better qualified. The three candidates with the most votes will be elected. The elected generals will then nominate the cavalry and infantry leaders, and challenges can be made, with voting occurring in the same way as before. Initially, and until the council and prytanes are established, the guardians of the law will oversee the assembly in a sacred space, dividing citizens into three groups: hoplites, cavalry, and the remaining army, each in its own section. Everyone votes for generals and cavalry officers, but only hoplites vote for the infantry leaders. Then, the cavalry will select leaders for the generals, while the generals themselves will appoint captains of archers and other irregular troops. The cavalry officers will be proposed and voted on by the same individuals who vote for the generals. The two candidates with the most votes will lead all the cavalry. Disputes about the voting may be raised once or twice, but if it's raised a third time, the presiding officers will make the decision.
The council shall consist of 360, who may be conveniently divided into four sections, making ninety councillors of each class. In the first place, all the citizens shall select candidates from the first class; and they shall be compelled to vote under pain of a fine. This shall be the business of the first day. On the second day a similar selection shall be made from the second class under the same conditions. On the third day, candidates shall be selected from the third class; but the compulsion to vote shall only extend to the voters of the first three classes. On the fourth day, members of the council shall be selected from the fourth class; they shall be selected by all, but the compulsion to vote shall only extend to the second class, who, if they do not vote, shall pay a fine of triple the amount which was exacted at first, and to the first class, who shall pay a quadruple fine. On the fifth day, the names shall be exhibited, and out of them shall be chosen by all the citizens 180 of each class: these are severally to be reduced by lot to ninety, and 90 x 4 will form the council for the year.
The council will have 360 members, which can be easily divided into four sections, with ninety councillors in each group. First, all citizens will choose candidates from the first group, and they must vote, or they'll face a fine. This will happen on the first day. On the second day, a similar selection will occur from the second group under the same rules. On the third day, candidates will be picked from the third group; however, the voting requirement only applies to voters from the first three groups. On the fourth day, council members will be chosen from the fourth group; everyone can participate, but only the second group is required to vote, and if they don’t, they will face a fine that is three times what was initially set, while the first group will incur a fourfold fine. On the fifth day, the names will be displayed, and all citizens will choose 180 from each group: these will then be randomly reduced to ninety each, resulting in 360 members who will serve on the council for the year.
The mode of election which has been described is a mean between monarchy and democracy, and such a mean should ever be observed in the state. For servants and masters cannot be friends, and, although equality makes friendship, we must remember that there are two sorts of equality. One of them is the rule of number and measure; but there is also a higher equality, which is the judgment of Zeus. Of this he grants but little to mortal men; yet that little is the source of the greatest good to cities and individuals. It is proportioned to the nature of each man; it gives more to the better and less to the inferior, and is the true political justice; to this we in our state desire to look, as every legislator should, not to the interests either of tyrants or mobs. But justice cannot always be strictly enforced, and then equity and mercy have to be substituted: and for a similar reason, when true justice will not be endured, we must have recourse to the rougher justice of the lot, which God must be entreated to guide.
The way of electing leaders described here is a balance between monarchy and democracy, and this balance should always be maintained in the state. Servants and masters can't be friends, and while equality fosters friendship, we must recognize there are two types of equality. One is based on numbers and measurements; the other is a higher equality, determined by divine judgment. This higher equality is given sparingly to mortals, but that little bit is what brings the greatest benefits to cities and individuals. It's tailored to each person's nature, giving more to the better individuals and less to those who are inferior; this is true political justice. In our state, as every lawmaker should, we aim to focus on this, rather than on the interests of tyrants or the mob. However, justice can't always be strictly enforced, and when it can't, we must rely on equity and mercy. Similarly, when true justice isn't acceptable, we have to turn to the harsher justice of chance, which we must ask God to guide.
These are the principal means of preserving the state, but perpetual care will also be required. When a ship is sailing on the sea, vigilance must not be relaxed night or day; and the vessel of state is tossing in a political sea, and therefore watch must continually succeed watch, and rulers must join hands with rulers. A small body will best perform this duty, and therefore the greater part of the 360 senators may be permitted to go and manage their own affairs, but a twelfth portion must be set aside in each month for the administration of the state. Their business will be to receive information and answer embassies; also they must endeavour to prevent or heal internal disorders; and with this object they must have the control of all assemblies of the citizens.
These are the main ways to keep the state secure, but ongoing attention is also necessary. Just like a ship sailing on the ocean, vigilance must remain high day and night; the state is navigating a turbulent political environment, so continuous watch is essential, and leaders must collaborate with one another. A smaller group will be most effective at this task, so the majority of the 360 senators can go back to their own affairs, but one-twelfth must be dedicated each month to governing the state. Their role will be to gather information and respond to diplomats; they must also work to prevent or resolve internal conflicts, and for this purpose, they need to oversee all citizen assemblies.
Besides the council, there must be wardens of the city and of the agora, who will superintend houses, ways, harbours, markets, and fountains, in the city and the suburbs, and prevent any injury being done to them by man or beast. The temples, also, will require priests and priestesses. Those who hold the priestly office by hereditary tenure shall not be disturbed; but as there will probably be few or none such in a new colony, priests and priestesses shall be appointed for the Gods who have no servants. Some of these officers shall be elected by vote, some by lot; and all classes shall mingle in a friendly manner at the elections. The appointment of priests should be left to God,—that is, to the lot; but the person elected must prove that he is himself sound in body and of legitimate birth, and that his family has been free from homicide or any other stain of impurity. Priests and priestesses are to be not less than sixty years of age, and shall hold office for a year only. The laws which are to regulate matters of religion shall be brought from Delphi, and interpreters appointed to superintend their execution. These shall be elected in the following manner:—The twelve tribes shall be formed into three bodies of four, each of which shall select four candidates, and this shall be done three times: of each twelve thus selected the three who receive the largest number of votes, nine in all, after undergoing a scrutiny shall go to Delphi, in order that the God may elect one out of each triad. They shall be appointed for life; and when any of them dies, another shall be elected by the four tribes who made the original appointment. There shall also be treasurers of the temples; three for the greater temples, two for the lesser, and one for those of least importance.
In addition to the council, there need to be city and agora wardens who will oversee houses, roads, ports, markets, and fountains in both the city and its suburbs, ensuring that no harm is done to them by people or animals. Temples will also need priests and priestesses. Those who inherit their priestly positions should not be disturbed; however, since there will likely be few or none in a new settlement, new priests and priestesses will be appointed for the gods who have no servants. Some of these officials will be elected by vote, while others will be chosen by lot, with all social classes mingling in a friendly manner during the elections. The appointment of priests should be left up to the divine—that is, decided by lot—but the elected individual must demonstrate that they are physically fit and of legitimate birth and that their family has been free from murder or any other form of impurity. Priests and priestesses must be at least sixty years old and serve for only one year. The laws governing religious matters will be retrieved from Delphi, and interpreters will be appointed to oversee their implementation. They will be elected as follows: the twelve tribes will be organized into three groups of four, each of which will select four candidates, repeated three times. From each group of twelve chosen, the three who receive the most votes—totaling nine—will undergo a vetting process before going to Delphi, where the God will choose one from each group. They will be appointed for life, and if any of them dies, another will be elected by the four tribes that made the original appointment. There will also be temple treasurers: three for the larger temples, two for the smaller ones, and one for the least significant ones.
The defence of the city should be committed to the generals and other officers of the army, and to the wardens of the city and agora. The defence of the country shall be on this wise:—The twelve tribes shall allot among themselves annually the twelve divisions of the country, and each tribe shall appoint five wardens and commanders of the watch. The five wardens in each division shall choose out of their own tribe twelve guards, who are to be between twenty-five and thirty years of age. Both the wardens and the guards are to serve two years; and they shall make a round of the divisions, staying a month in each. They shall go from West to East during the first year, and back from East to West during the second. Thus they will gain a perfect knowledge of the country at every season of the year.
The defense of the city should be entrusted to the generals and other army officers, as well as the city and agora wardens. The country's defense will work like this: the twelve tribes will divide the country into twelve sections each year, and each tribe will appoint five wardens and watch commanders. The five wardens in each section will select twelve guards from their tribe, who should be between twenty-five and thirty years old. Both the wardens and the guards will serve for two years, making rounds through the sections and spending a month in each. They will travel from West to East in the first year and then return from East to West in the second year. This way, they will develop a thorough understanding of the country during each season of the year.
While on service, their first duty will be to see that the country is well protected by means of fortifications and entrenchments; they will use the beasts of burden and the labourers whom they find on the spot, taking care however not to interfere with the regular course of agriculture. But while they thus render the country as inaccessible as possible to enemies, they will also make it as accessible as possible to friends by constructing and maintaining good roads. They will restrain and preserve the rain which comes down from heaven, making the barren places fertile, and the wet places dry. They will ornament the fountains with plantations and buildings, and provide water for irrigation at all seasons of the year. They will lead the streams to the temples and groves of the Gods; and in such spots the youth shall make gymnasia for themselves, and warm baths for the aged; there the rustic worn with toil will receive a kindly welcome, and be far better treated than at the hands of an unskilful doctor.
While in service, their main responsibility will be to ensure the country is well protected through fortifications and trenches; they will utilize the pack animals and local laborers available, but will be careful not to disrupt normal agricultural activities. As they make the country as difficult as possible for enemies to access, they will also ensure it is as accessible as possible for allies by building and maintaining good roads. They will manage and conserve the rain that falls, turning barren areas into fertile land and dry areas into wet ones. They will enhance the fountains with greenery and structures, and provide water for irrigation throughout the year. They will direct the streams to the temples and groves of the Gods; in these areas, the youth will create gymnasiums for themselves and warm baths for the elderly; there, the laborer, weary from work, will receive a warm welcome and much better care than from an unskilled doctor.
These works will be both useful and ornamental; but the sixty wardens must not fail to give serious attention to other duties. For they must watch over the districts assigned to them, and also act as judges. In small matters the five commanders shall decide: in greater matters up to three minae, the five commanders and the twelve guards. Like all other judges, except those who have the final decision, they shall be liable to give an account. If the wardens impose unjust tasks on the villagers, or take by force their crops or implements, or yield to flattery or bribes in deciding suits, let them be publicly dishonoured. In regard to any other wrong-doing, if the question be of a mina, let the neighbours decide; but if the accused person will not submit, trusting that his monthly removals will enable him to escape payment, and also in suits about a larger amount, the injured party may have recourse to the common court; in the former case, if successful, he may exact a double penalty.
These works will be both practical and decorative; however, the sixty wardens must not overlook their other responsibilities. They need to oversee the areas assigned to them and also serve as judges. For minor issues, the five commanders will make decisions; for more significant matters up to three minae, the five commanders and the twelve guards will decide. Like all other judges, except those with the final say, they must be accountable for their decisions. If the wardens impose unfair tasks on the villagers, seize their crops or tools by force, or give in to flattery or bribery in their rulings, they should be publicly disgraced. Regarding any other wrongdoing, if it concerns a mina, the neighbors will make the decision; however, if the accused refuses to comply, believing that his monthly relocations will help him avoid payment, or in cases involving larger sums, the injured party can take their case to the common court; in the earlier scenario, if successful, they can demand a double penalty.
The wardens and guards, while on their two years' service, shall live and eat together, and the guard who is absent from the daily meals without permission or sleeps out at night, shall be regarded as a deserter, and may be punished by any one who meets him. If any of the commanders is guilty of such an irregularity, the whole sixty shall have him punished; and he of them who screens him shall suffer a still heavier penalty than the offender himself. Now by service a man learns to rule; and he should pride himself upon serving well the laws and the Gods all his life, and upon having served ancient and honourable men in his youth. The twelve and the five should be their own servants, and use the labour of the villagers only for the good of the public. Let them search the country through, and acquire a perfect knowledge of every locality; with this view, hunting and field sports should be encouraged.
The wardens and guards, during their two years of service, must live and eat together. If a guard misses daily meals without permission or sleeps out at night, they'll be considered a deserter and can be punished by anyone who finds them. If any of the commanders breaks this rule, the entire group of sixty must ensure he is punished; the one who helps him avoid punishment will face an even harsher penalty than the offender. Through service, a person learns to lead; they should take pride in serving the laws and the Gods throughout their life, as well as having served respected and honorable individuals in their youth. The twelve and the five should be their own servants and only use the labor of the villagers for the public good. They should explore the entire region and gain a thorough understanding of every area; for this reason, hunting and field sports should be encouraged.
Next we have to speak of the elections of the wardens of the agora and of the city. The wardens of the city shall be three in number, and they shall have the care of the streets, roads, buildings, and also of the water-supply. They shall be chosen out of the highest class, and when the number of candidates has been reduced to six who have the greatest number of votes, three out of the six shall be taken by lot, and, after a scrutiny, shall be admitted to their office. The wardens of the agora shall be five in number—ten are to be first elected, and every one shall vote for all the vacant places; the ten shall be afterwards reduced to five by lot, as in the former election. The first and second class shall be compelled to go to the assembly, but not the third and fourth, unless they are specially summoned. The wardens of the agora shall have the care of the temples and fountains which are in the agora, and shall punish those who injure them by stripes and bonds, if they be slaves or strangers; and by fines, if they be citizens. And the wardens of the city shall have a similar power of inflicting punishment and fines in their own department.
Next, we need to talk about the elections for the wardens of the agora and the city. There will be three wardens for the city, and their responsibilities will include overseeing the streets, roads, buildings, and water supply. They will be chosen from the highest class, and once the candidate pool has been narrowed down to six with the most votes, three of those will be selected by drawing lots and, after a review, will take on their roles. For the wardens of the agora, there will be five in total—initially, ten will be elected, and everyone can vote for all the available spots; the ten will then be narrowed down to five by lot, just like in the previous election. The first and second classes are required to attend the assembly, but the third and fourth classes are not unless they receive a special summons. The wardens of the agora will be responsible for the temples and fountains located in the agora and will punish anyone who damages them with physical punishment if they are slaves or foreigners, and with fines if they are citizens. The wardens of the city will have similar authority to impose punishment and fines within their own area of responsibility.
In the next place, there must be directors of music and gymnastic; one class of them superintending gymnasia and schools, and the attendance and lodging of the boys and girls—the other having to do with contests of music and gymnastic. In musical contests there shall be one kind of judges of solo singing or playing, who will judge of rhapsodists, flute-players, harp-players and the like, and another of choruses. There shall be choruses of men and boys and maidens—one director will be enough to introduce them all, and he should not be less than forty years of age; secondly, of solos also there shall be one director, aged not less than thirty years; he will introduce the competitors and give judgment upon them. The director of the choruses is to be elected in an assembly at which all who take an interest in music are compelled to attend, and no one else. Candidates must only be proposed for their fitness, and opposed on the ground of unfitness. Ten are to be elected by vote, and the one of these on whom the lot falls shall be director for a year. Next shall be elected out of the second and third classes the judges of gymnastic contests, who are to be three in number, and are to be tested, after being chosen by lot out of twenty who have been elected by the three highest classes—these being compelled to attend at the election.
Next, there need to be music and gymnastic directors; one group will oversee gyms and schools, as well as the accommodation and attendance of boys and girls, while the other will manage competitions in music and gymnastics. For musical competitions, there will be one set of judges for solo performances, which includes rhapsodists, flute players, harpists, and the like, and another set for choruses. There will be choruses of men, boys, and girls—one director is enough to manage them all, and he should be at least forty years old. Additionally, there will be one director for solos, who must be at least thirty years old; he will introduce the competitors and judge them. The director of the choruses will be elected in an assembly that everyone interested in music must attend, and no one else. Candidates can only be nominated based on their suitability and can only be opposed for lack of suitability. Ten will be elected by vote, and the one chosen by lot will serve as director for a year. Next, judges for the gymnastics competitions will be selected from the second and third classes, with three judges in total. They will be tested after being chosen by lot from twenty candidates who have been elected by the three highest classes, who must all attend the election.
One minister remains, who will have the general superintendence of education. He must be not less than fifty years old, and be himself the father of children born in wedlock. His office must be regarded by all as the highest in the state. For the right growth of the first shoot in plants and animals is the chief cause of matured perfection. Man is supposed to be a tame animal, but he becomes either the gentlest or the fiercest of creatures, accordingly as he is well or ill educated. Wherefore he who is elected to preside over education should be the best man possible. He shall hold office for five years, and shall be elected out of the guardians of the law, by the votes of the other magistrates with the exception of the senate and prytanes; and the election shall be held by ballot in the temple of Apollo.
One minister will remain, who will oversee education. He must be at least fifty years old and the father of children born in marriage. His position should be recognized by everyone as the highest in the state. The proper development of young plants and animals is the main factor in achieving full maturity. Humans are supposed to be domesticated creatures, but they can become either the kindest or the most savage beings, depending on whether they receive good or poor education. Therefore, the person chosen to lead education should be the best candidate possible. He will serve for five years and will be elected from the law guardians by the votes of the other magistrates, excluding the senate and prytanes; the election will take place by ballot in the temple of Apollo.
When a magistrate dies before his term of office has expired, another shall be elected in his place; and, if the guardian of an orphan dies, the relations shall appoint another within ten days, or be fined a drachma a day for neglect.
When a magistrate dies before his term ends, another one will be elected to take his place; and if an orphan's guardian dies, the relatives must appoint a new one within ten days or be fined a drachma per day for failing to do so.
The city which has no courts of law will soon cease to be a city; and a judge who sits in silence and leaves the enquiry to the litigants, as in arbitrations, is not a good judge. A few judges are better than many, but the few must be good. The matter in dispute should be clearly elicited; time and examination will find out the truth. Causes should first be tried before a court of neighbours: if the decision is unsatisfactory, let them be referred to a higher court; or, if necessary, to a higher still, of which the decision shall be final.
A city without courts will soon stop being a city; and a judge who stays silent and lets the parties handle their own case, like in arbitration, is not a good judge. A few judges are better than many, but those few need to be competent. The issue at hand should be clearly defined; time and examination will uncover the truth. Cases should first be heard by a local court: if the outcome isn't satisfactory, let them go to a higher court; or, if needed, to an even higher one, whose decision will be final.
Every magistrate is a judge, and every judge is a magistrate, on the day on which he is deciding the suit. This will therefore be an appropriate place to speak of judges and their functions. The supreme tribunal will be that on which the litigants agree; and let there be two other tribunals, one for public and the other for private causes. The high court of appeal shall be composed as follows:—All the officers of state shall meet on the last day but one of the year in some temple, and choose for a judge the best man out of every magistracy: and those who are elected, after they have undergone a scrutiny, shall be judges of appeal. They shall give their decisions openly, in the presence of the magistrates who have elected them; and the public may attend. If anybody charges one of them with having intentionally decided wrong, he shall lay his accusation before the guardians of the law, and if the judge be found guilty he shall pay damages to the extent of half the injury, unless the guardians of the law deem that he deserves a severer punishment, in which case the judges shall assess the penalty.
Every magistrate is a judge, and every judge is a magistrate, on the day when they are deciding a case. This is a fitting place to discuss judges and their roles. The highest court will be the one that the parties agree upon; there will also be two other courts, one for public cases and the other for private ones. The high court of appeal shall be organized as follows: All state officials will gather on the day before the last day of the year in a temple, and they will select the best person from each magistracy to be a judge. Those who are chosen, after a review process, will serve as appeal judges. They will announce their decisions openly, in front of the magistrates who elected them, and the public is allowed to attend. If anyone accuses one of them of having deliberately made a wrong decision, they should present their accusation to the guardians of the law. If the judge is found guilty, they will owe damages equal to half the harm done, unless the guardians of the law believe a stricter punishment is warranted, in which case the judges will determine the penalty.
As the whole people are injured by offences against the state, they should share in the trial of them. Such causes should originate with the people and be decided by them: the enquiry shall take place before any three of the highest magistrates upon whom the defendant and plaintiff can agree. Also in private suits all should judge as far as possible, and therefore there should be a court of law in every ward; for he who has no share in the administration of justice, believes that he has no share in the state. The judges in these courts shall be elected by lot and give their decision at once. The final judgment in all cases shall rest with the court of appeal. And so, having done with the appointment of courts and the election of officers, we will now make our laws.
Since everyone is affected by crimes against the state, they should be involved in the trial of those offenses. These cases should start with the people and be resolved by them: the investigation will take place before any three of the highest magistrates that both the defendant and the plaintiff can agree on. Additionally, in private disputes, as many people as possible should participate in the judgment, which is why there should be a court in every neighborhood; because those who do not take part in the justice system feel disconnected from the state. The judges in these courts will be chosen by lottery and will deliver their decisions immediately. The final verdict in all cases will lie with the appeals court. With the establishment of courts and the election of officials complete, we will now proceed to create our laws.
'Your way of proceeding, Stranger, is admirable.'
'The way you go about things, Stranger, is impressive.'
Then so far our old man's game of play has gone off well.
Then so far our old man's game has gone well.
'Say, rather, our serious and noble pursuit.'
'Say, instead, our important and honorable quest.'
Perhaps; but let me ask you whether you have ever observed the manner in which painters put in and rub out colour: yet their endless labour will last but a short time, unless they leave behind them some successor who will restore the picture and remove its defects. 'Certainly.' And have we not a similar object at the present moment? We are old ourselves, and therefore we must leave our work of legislation to be improved and perfected by the next generation; not only making laws for our guardians, but making them lawgivers. 'We must at least do our best.' Let us address them as follows. Beloved saviours of the laws, we give you an outline of legislation which you must fill up, according to a rule which we will prescribe for you. Megillus and Cleinias and I are agreed, and we hope that you will agree with us in thinking, that the whole energies of a man should be devoted to the attainment of manly virtue, whether this is to be gained by study, or habit, or desire, or opinion. And rather than accept institutions which tend to degrade and enslave him, he should fly his country and endure any hardship. These are our principles, and we would ask you to judge of our laws, and praise or blame them, accordingly as they are or are not capable of improving our citizens.
Maybe; but let me ask you if you've ever noticed how painters add and remove colors: their constant effort may only last for a short time unless they leave behind someone who can restore the artwork and fix its flaws. 'Absolutely.' Don't we have a similar task right now? We're getting older, so we need to hand over our work of creating laws for the next generation to refine and improve; not just making laws for our guardians, but turning them into lawmakers. 'We must at least do our best.' Let's talk to them like this. Dear protectors of the laws, we offer you a framework of legislation that you must develop, following a guideline we will provide. Megillus, Cleinias, and I are on the same page, and we hope you will join us in believing that a person's entire energy should focus on achieving true virtue, whether through study, habit, desire, or opinion. Rather than accept systems that degrade and enslave him, he should leave his country and face any hardship. These are our principles, and we ask you to evaluate our laws and judge them based on whether they can improve our citizens.
And first of laws concerning religion. We have already said that the number 5040 has many convenient divisions: and we took a twelfth part of this (420), which is itself divisible by twelve, for the number of the tribe. Every divisor is a gift of God, and corresponds to the months of the year and to the revolution of the universe. All cities have a number, but none is more fortunate than our own, which can be divided by all numbers up to 12, with the exception of 11, and even by 11, if two families are deducted. And now let us divide the state, assigning to each division some God or demigod, who shall have altars raised to them, and sacrifices offered twice a month; and assemblies shall be held in their honour, twelve for the tribes, and twelve for the city, corresponding to their divisions. The object of them will be first to promote religion, secondly to encourage friendship and intercourse between families; for families must be acquainted before they marry into one another, or great mistakes will occur. At these festivals there shall be innocent dances of young men and maidens, who may have the opportunity of seeing one another in modest undress. To the details of all this the masters of choruses and the guardians will attend, embodying in laws the results of their experience; and, after ten years, making the laws permanent, with the consent of the legislator, if he be alive, or, if he be not alive, of the guardians of the law, who shall perfect them and settle them once for all. At least, if any further changes are required, the magistrates must take the whole people into counsel, and obtain the sanction of all the oracles.
And first, let’s talk about the laws regarding religion. We've already mentioned that the number 5040 has many useful divisions. We took one-twelfth of this (420), which is also divisible by twelve, to represent the number of the tribe. Every divisor is a blessing from God and relates to the months of the year and the cycles of the universe. All cities have a number, but none is as fortunate as ours, which can be divided by every number up to 12, except for 11, and even by 11 if two families are excluded. Now, let's divide the state and assign a God or demigod to each division, who will have altars built for them and sacrifices offered twice a month. There will also be gatherings held in their honor—twelve for the tribes and twelve for the city, in line with their divisions. The purpose of these gatherings will be to promote religion, and to foster friendship and interaction among families; it’s important for families to know each other before marrying, to avoid major mistakes. At these festivals, there will be innocent dances for young men and women, giving them a chance to see each other in modest attire. The leaders of the choruses and the guardians will oversee all the details, incorporating their experiences into the laws; and after ten years, the laws will become permanent with the legislator's approval, if he is alive, or, if he is not, with the guardians of the law, who will refine and finalize them. If any further changes are needed, the magistrates must consult the entire population and get the approval of all the oracles.
Whenever any one who is between the ages of twenty-five and thirty-five wants to marry, let him do so; but first let him hear the strain which we will address to him:—
Whenever someone between the ages of twenty-five and thirty-five wants to get married, they should go for it; but first, let them listen to what we have to say:—
My son, you ought to marry, but not in order to gain wealth or to avoid poverty; neither should you, as men are wont to do, choose a wife who is like yourself in property and character. You ought to consult the interests of the state rather than your own pleasure; for by equal marriages a society becomes unequal. And yet to enact a law that the rich and mighty shall not marry the rich and mighty, that the quick shall be united to the slow, and the slow to the quick, will arouse anger in some persons and laughter in others; for they do not understand that opposite elements ought to be mingled in the state, as wine should be mingled with water. The object at which we aim must therefore be left to the influence of public opinion. And do not forget our former precept, that every one should seek to attain immortality and raise up a fair posterity to serve God.—Let this be the prelude of the law about the duty of marriage. But if a man will not listen, and at thirty-five years of age is still unmarried, he shall pay an annual fine: if he be of the first class, 100 drachmas; if of the second, 70; if of the third, 60; and if of the fourth, 30. This fine shall be sacred to Here; and if he refuse to pay, a tenfold penalty shall be exacted by the treasurer of Here, who shall be responsible for the payment. Further, the unmarried man shall receive no honour or obedience from the young, and he shall not retain the right of punishing others. A man is neither to give nor receive a dowry beyond a certain fixed sum; in our state, for his consolation, if he be poor, let him know that he need neither receive nor give one, for every citizen is provided with the necessaries of life. Again, if the woman is not rich, her husband will not be her humble servant. He who disobeys this law shall pay a fine according to his class, which shall be exacted by the treasurers of Here and Zeus.
My son, you should get married, but not to gain wealth or avoid poverty; nor should you, as many do, choose a wife who is similar to you in wealth and character. You should think about the good of the community rather than your own pleasure because equal marriages make society unequal. However, making a law that prevents the rich and powerful from marrying each other, that pairs the quick with the slow, and the slow with the quick, will upset some people and amuse others; they don’t understand that different elements should mix in society, just like wine should mix with water. The goal we aim for must be influenced by public opinion. And remember our earlier principle, that everyone should strive for immortality and raise good descendants to serve God. Let this be the foundation of the marriage law. However, if a man refuses to listen and is still unmarried at thirty-five, he will have to pay an annual fine: 100 drachmas if he belongs to the first class, 70 if he’s in the second, 60 if in the third, and 30 if in the fourth. This fine will be given to Hera; if he refuses to pay, a tenfold penalty will be imposed by the treasurer of Hera, who will be responsible for collecting it. Also, the unmarried man will not receive any respect or obedience from the youth, and he will lose the right to punish others. A man cannot give or receive a dowry beyond a certain amount; in our community, if he’s poor, he should know he doesn’t need to give or receive one, as every citizen is provided for. Additionally, if the woman is not wealthy, her husband will not be at her beck and call. Anyone who breaks this law will pay a fine based on their class, which will be collected by the treasurers of Hera and Zeus.
The betrothal of the parties shall be made by the next of kin, or if there are none, by the guardians. The offerings and ceremonies of marriage shall be determined by the interpreters of sacred rites. Let the wedding party be moderate; five male and five female friends, and a like number of kinsmen, will be enough. The expense should not exceed, for the first class, a mina; and for the second, half a mina; and should be in like proportion for the other classes. Extravagance is to be regarded as vulgarity and ignorance of nuptial proprieties. Much wine is only to be drunk at the festivals of Dionysus, and certainly not on the occasion of a marriage. The bride and bridegroom, who are taking a great step in life, ought to have all their wits about them; they should be especially careful of the night on which God may give them increase, and which this will be none can say. Their bodies and souls should be in the most temperate condition; they should abstain from all that partakes of the nature of disease or vice, which will otherwise become hereditary. There is an original divinity in man which preserves all things, if used with proper respect. He who marries should make one of the two houses on the lot the nest and nursery of his young; he should leave his father and mother, and then his affection for them will be only increased by absence. He will go forth as to a colony, and will there rear up his offspring, handing on the torch of life to another generation.
The engagement of the couple should be done by their closest relatives, or if there are none, by their guardians. The wedding gifts and ceremonies will be decided by the officiants. The wedding party should be modest; having five male and five female friends, along with the same number of relatives, will suffice. The cost should not exceed a mina for the first class, and half a mina for the second class, maintaining similar proportions for other classes. Going overboard is seen as tasteless and a lack of understanding of marriage customs. Excessive drinking is only acceptable during the festivals of Dionysus, not at weddings. The bride and groom, who are making a significant commitment in life, should stay clear-headed; they need to be especially mindful of the night that could bring them children, which no one can predict. Their bodies and minds should be in the best shape; they should avoid anything that resembles sickness or immorality, as that could pass down to future generations. There is a natural divinity in people that preserves all things when treated with proper respect. A person getting married should make one of the homes a place for raising their children; they should leave their parents, and this separation will only deepen their affection for them. They will venture out like a settler, where they will nurture their children and pass on the legacy of life to the next generation.
About property in general there is little difficulty, with the exception of property in slaves, which is an institution of a very doubtful character. The slavery of the Helots is approved by some and condemned by others; and there is some doubt even about the slavery of the Mariandynians at Heraclea and of the Thessalian Penestae. This makes us ask, What shall we do about slaves? To which every one would agree in replying,—Let us have the best and most attached whom we can get. All of us have heard stories of slaves who have been better to their masters than sons or brethren. Yet there is an opposite doctrine, that slaves are never to be trusted; as Homer says, 'Slavery takes away half a man's understanding.' And different persons treat them in different ways: there are some who never trust them, and beat them like dogs, until they make them many times more slavish than they were before; and others pursue the opposite plan. Man is a troublesome animal, as has been often shown, Megillus, notably in the revolts of the Messenians; and great mischiefs have arisen in countries where there are large bodies of slaves of one nationality. Two rules may be given for their management: first that they should not, if possible, be of the same country or have a common language; and secondly, that they should be treated by their master with more justice even than equals, out of regard to himself quite as much as to them. For he who is righteous in the treatment of his slaves, or of any inferiors, will sow in them the seed of virtue. Masters should never jest with their slaves: this, which is a common but foolish practice, increases the difficulty and painfulness of managing them.
When it comes to property in general, there’s not much confusion, except for the property in slaves, which is a very questionable institution. Some approve of the slavery of the Helots while others condemn it; there’s also uncertainty about the slavery of the Mariandynians at Heraclea and the Thessalian Penestae. This leads us to ask, what should we do about slaves? Most would agree on one answer: let’s get the best and most loyal slaves we can find. We’ve all heard stories of slaves who treated their masters better than their own children or siblings. However, there’s a contrary belief that you can never trust slaves; as Homer says, “Slavery takes away half a man's understanding.” Different people handle slaves in different ways: some never trust them and treat them harshly, turning them into even more subservient beings, while others take a different approach. Humans can be difficult, as shown by the revolts of the Messenians, and major issues have arisen in places with large numbers of slaves from the same background. There are two main rules for managing them: first, if possible, they should not come from the same country or speak the same language; and second, their master should treat them with more fairness than their equals, considering his own reputation as much as theirs. A master who treats his slaves, or any subordinates, justly will cultivate virtue in them. Masters should never make jokes at their slaves' expense; this common but foolish habit only makes it more challenging and painful to manage them.
Next as to habitations. These ought to have been spoken of before; for no man can marry a wife, and have slaves, who has not a house for them to live in. Let us supply the omission. The temples should be placed round the Agora, and the city built in a circle on the heights. Near the temples, which are holy places and the habitations of the Gods, should be buildings for the magistrates, and the courts of law, including those in which capital offences are to be tried. As to walls, Megillus, I agree with Sparta that they should sleep in the earth; 'cold steel is the best wall,' as the poet finely says. Besides, how absurd to be sending out our youth to fortify and guard the borders of our country, and then to build a city wall, which is very unhealthy, and is apt to make people fancy that they may run there and rest in idleness, not knowing that true repose comes from labour, and that idleness is only a renewal of trouble. If, however, there must be a wall, the private houses had better be so arranged as to form one wall; this will have an agreeable aspect, and the building will be safer and more defensible. These objects should be attended to at the foundation of the city. The wardens of the city must see that they are carried out; and they must also enforce cleanliness, and preserve the public buildings from encroachments. Moreover, they must take care to let the rain flow off easily, and must regulate other matters concerning the general administration of the city. If any further enactments prove to be necessary, the guardians of the law must supply them.
Next, let's talk about homes. We should have mentioned this earlier because no one can marry and have servants without a place for them to live. So let's fix that. The temples should be positioned around the Agora, and the city should be built in a circle on the hills. Close to the temples, which are sacred spaces and homes of the Gods, there should be buildings for the magistrates and the courts, including those for serious crimes. Regarding walls, Megillus, I agree with Sparta that they should be in the ground; "cold steel is the best wall," as the poet wisely states. Plus, how ridiculous is it to send our youth to defend our borders while building a city wall, which is unhealthy and may give people the idea that they can lounge around doing nothing, forgetting that true rest comes from hard work and that idleness only brings more trouble. However, if a wall is necessary, it would be better to design private houses to create a single wall; this will look nice and make the building safer and easier to defend. These considerations should be taken into account when establishing the city. The city officials must ensure they are implemented; they should also promote cleanliness and protect public buildings from encroachments. Furthermore, they must manage proper drainage for rain and address other aspects of city administration. If additional laws are needed, the guardians of the law should provide them.
And now, having provided buildings, and having married our citizens, we will proceed to speak of their mode of life. In a well-constituted state, individuals cannot be allowed to live as they please. Why do I say this? Because I am going to enact that the bridegroom shall not absent himself from the common meals. They were instituted originally on the occasion of some war, and, though deemed singular when first founded, they have tended greatly to the security of states. There was a difficulty in introducing them, but there is no difficulty in them now. There is, however, another institution about which I would speak, if I dared. I may preface my proposal by remarking that disorder in a state is the source of all evil, and order of all good. Now in Sparta and Crete there are common meals for men, and this, as I was saying, is a divine and natural institution. But the women are left to themselves; they live in dark places, and, being weaker, and therefore wickeder, than men, they are at the bottom of a good deal more than half the evil of states. This must be corrected, and the institution of common meals extended to both sexes. But, in the present unfortunate state of opinion, who would dare to establish them? And still more, who can compel women to eat and drink in public? They will defy the legislator to drag them out of their holes. And in any other state such a proposal would be drowned in clamour, but in our own I think that I can show the attempt to be just and reasonable. 'There is nothing which we should like to hear better.' Listen, then; having plenty of time, we will go back to the beginning of things, which is an old subject with us. 'Right.' Either the race of mankind never had a beginning and will never have an end, or the time which has elapsed since man first came into being is all but infinite. 'No doubt.' And in this infinity of time there have been changes of every kind, both in the order of the seasons and in the government of states and in the customs of eating and drinking. Vines and olives were at length discovered, and the blessings of Demeter and Persephone, of which one Triptolemus is said to have been the minister; before his time the animals had been eating one another. And there are nations in which mankind still sacrifice their fellow-men, and other nations in which they lead a kind of Orphic existence, and will not sacrifice animals, or so much as taste of a cow—they offer fruits or cakes moistened with honey. Perhaps you will ask me what is the bearing of these remarks? 'We would gladly hear.' I will endeavour to explain their drift. I see that the virtue of human life depends on the due regulation of three wants or desires. The first is the desire of meat, the second of drink; these begin with birth, and make us disobedient to any voice other than that of pleasure. The third and fiercest and greatest need is felt latest; this is love, which is a madness setting men's whole nature on fire. These three disorders of mankind we must endeavour to restrain by three mighty influences—fear, and law, and reason, which, with the aid of the Muses and the Gods of contests, may extinguish our lusts.
And now that we've built structures and married off our citizens, let's talk about their way of life. In a well-ordered society, individuals can't just live however they want. Why do I bring this up? Because I'm going to propose that grooms should not skip the communal meals. These meals were initially created during a time of war and, although they seemed unusual when they started, they have significantly contributed to the safety of the state. There were challenges in setting them up, but they are no longer an issue. However, there is another practice I want to discuss, if I'm brave enough to do so. I can start by saying that chaos in a state leads to all kinds of problems, while order results in all that is good. In places like Sparta and Crete, men participate in communal meals, and, as I mentioned, this is a divine and natural practice. But women are left to themselves; they live in secluded spaces and, being weaker and often more deceitful than men, contribute a great deal to the state's troubles. This needs to be fixed by extending the practice of communal meals to both genders. But, given the current unfortunate mindset, who would dare to implement this? And even more so, who could force women to eat and drink in public? They would challenge lawmakers to pull them out of their hiding spots. In other states, such a suggestion would be met with uproar, but in our own, I believe I can argue that this idea is fair and reasonable. "We would love to hear it." So listen; we have time, so let’s revisit the origins of things, which is familiar territory for us. "Right." Either humankind has no beginning and will never end, or the time since humans first appeared is nearly infinite. "No doubt." And in this vast span of time, there have been all sorts of changes, including shifts in the seasons, governmental systems, and food customs. Eventually, wines and olives were discovered, along with the gifts from Demeter and Persephone, of which Triptolemus is said to have been a champion; before that, people were busy eating each other. In some cultures, people still sacrifice others, while in others, they lead a sort of Orphic life, refusing to sacrifice animals or even touch a cow—they offer fruits or honeyed cakes instead. You might wonder how these comments relate to our discussion. "We'd like to hear." I'll do my best to clarify. I believe the virtue of human existence relies on properly managing three basic needs or desires. The first is the craving for food, the second is for drink; these emerge at birth and make us heed only the call of pleasure. The third, strongest, and most intense desire comes later; this is love, a kind of madness that ignites everything within us. We must find a way to control these three human disorders through three powerful influences—fear, law, and reason, which, with the help of the Muses and the deities of competition, can help us extinguish our appetites.
But to return. After marriage let us proceed to the generation of children, and then to their nurture and education—thus gradually approaching the subject of syssitia. There are, however, some other points which are suggested by the three words—meat, drink, love. 'Proceed,' the bride and bridegroom ought to set their mind on having a brave offspring. Now a man only succeeds when he takes pains; wherefore the bridegroom ought to take special care of the bride, and the bride of the bridegroom, at the time when their children are about to be born. And let there be a committee of matrons who shall meet every day at the temple of Eilithyia at a time fixed by the magistrates, and inform against any man or woman who does not observe the laws of married life. The time of begetting children and the supervision of the parents shall last for ten years only; if at the expiration of this period they have no children, they may part, with the consent of their relatives and the official matrons, and with a due regard to the interests of either; if a dispute arise, ten of the guardians of the law shall be chosen as arbiters. The matrons shall also have power to enter the houses of the young people, if necessary, and to advise and threaten them. If their efforts fail, let them go to the guardians of the law; and if they too fail, the offender, whether man or woman, shall be forbidden to be present at all family ceremonies. If when the time for begetting children has ceased, either husband or wife have connexion with others who are of an age to beget children, they shall be liable to the same penalties as those who are still having a family. But when both parties have ceased to beget children there shall be no penalties. If men and women live soberly, the enactments of law may be left to slumber; punishment is necessary only when there is great disorder of manners.
But let's get back to it. After marriage, we should focus on having children and then on their upbringing and education—slowly transitioning to the topic of communal meals. However, there are a few other ideas that come to mind with the words—food, drink, love. The bride and groom should prioritize raising strong offspring. A man only succeeds through hard work; therefore, the groom should take special care of the bride, and the bride should do the same for the groom, especially when their children are about to be born. There should be a group of matrons who meet every day at the temple of Eilithyia at a time set by local leaders, to report anyone who doesn't follow the rules of married life. The period for conceiving children and the oversight of parents will last for ten years; if they do not have children by then, they may separate with the agreement of their families and the official matrons, keeping in mind each person's interests. If there's a disagreement, ten law guardians will be selected to mediate. The matrons also have the authority to enter the homes of the young couples, if necessary, to give advice and warnings. If their efforts do not succeed, they should go to the law guardians; if those efforts fail too, the offending party, whether man or woman, will be barred from attending any family ceremonies. If, after the childbearing period has ended, either spouse engages with others capable of having children, they will face the same penalties as those still trying to start a family. However, when both partners are no longer able to conceive, there will be no penalties. If men and women conduct themselves appropriately, legal enforcement can be relaxed; punishment is needed only when there is significant moral disorder.
The first year of children's lives is to be registered in their ancestral temples; the name of the archon of the year is to be inscribed on a whited wall in every phratry, and the names of the living members of the phratry close to them, to be erased at their decease. The proper time of marriage for a woman shall be from sixteen years to twenty; for a man, from thirty to thirty-five (compare Republic). The age of holding office for a woman is to be forty, for a man thirty years. The time for military service for a man is to be from twenty years to sixty; for a woman, from the time that she has ceased to bear children until fifty.
The first year of a child's life should be recorded in their family temples; the name of the yearly leader should be inscribed on a white wall in every community group, and the names of the living members of the group should be removed when they pass away. The ideal age for a woman to marry is between sixteen and twenty; for a man, it's from thirty to thirty-five (see Republic). The age to hold office for a woman is set at forty, and for a man, it's thirty. A man is eligible for military service from the ages of twenty to sixty; for a woman, it's from the time she stops having children until fifty.
BOOK VII. Now that we have married our citizens and brought their children into the world, we have to find nurture and education for them. This is a matter of precept rather than of law, and cannot be precisely regulated by the legislator. For minute regulations are apt to be transgressed, and frequent transgressions impair the habit of obedience to the laws. I speak darkly, but I will also try to exhibit my wares in the light of day. Am I not right in saying that a good education tends to the improvement of body and mind? 'Certainly.' And the body is fairest which grows up straight and well-formed from the time of birth. 'Very true.' And we observe that the first shoot of every living thing is the greatest; many even contend that man is not at twenty-five twice the height that he was at five. 'True.' And growth without exercise of the limbs is the source of endless evils in the body. 'Yes.' The body should have the most exercise when growing most. 'What, the bodies of young infants?' Nay, the bodies of unborn infants. I should like to explain to you this singular kind of gymnastics. The Athenians are fond of cock-fighting, and the people who keep cocks carry them about in their hands or under their arms, and take long walks, to improve, not their own health, but the health of the birds. Here is a proof of the usefulness of motion, whether of rocking, swinging, riding, or tossing upon the wave; for all these kinds of motion greatly increase strength and the powers of digestion. Hence we infer that our women, when they are with child, should walk about and fashion the embryo; and the children, when born, should be carried by strong nurses,—there must be more than one of them,—and should not be suffered to walk until they are three years old. Shall we impose penalties for the neglect of these rules? The greatest penalty, that is, ridicule, and the difficulty of making the nurses do as we bid them, will be incurred by ourselves. 'Then why speak of such matters?' In the hope that heads of families may learn that the due regulation of them is the foundation of law and order in the state.
BOOK VII. Now that we have married off our citizens and brought their children into the world, we need to provide for their upbringing and education. This is more about guidance than strict law, and it can’t be exactly regulated by the lawmakers. Strict rules tend to be broken, and frequent violations weaken the habit of obeying the laws. I may speak cryptically, but I’ll also try to present my ideas clearly. Am I not correct in saying that a good education improves both body and mind? 'Of course.' And the best bodies are those that grow up straight and well-formed right from birth. 'Very true.' We notice that the first stages of growth for all living things are the most significant; some even argue that a person isn’t twice their height at twenty-five as they were at five. 'That’s true.' Growth without exercising the limbs leads to numerous health issues. 'Definitely.' The body should get the most exercise during its growth phases. 'What about young infants?' No, I mean the bodies of unborn babies. I would like to explain this unique kind of exercise. The Athenians enjoy cock-fighting, and those who raise the birds carry them around in their hands or under their arms, taking long walks to improve not their own health but that of the birds. This shows the benefits of movement—whether it’s rocking, swinging, riding, or being tossed on the waves—as all these kinds of movement greatly enhance strength and digestion. Thus, we conclude that pregnant women should walk around and stimulate the fetus; and, when children are born, they should be carried by strong nurses—there should be more than one—and should not be allowed to walk until they are three years old. Should we impose penalties for failing to follow these guidelines? The greatest penalty—ridicule and the struggle to get nurses to comply—will fall on us. 'Then why discuss these issues?' In the hope that family heads might understand that properly managing these aspects is the foundation of law and order in the state.
And now, leaving the body, let us proceed to the soul; but we must first repeat that perpetual motion by night and by day is good for the young creature. This is proved by the Corybantian cure of motion, and by the practice of nurses who rock children in their arms, lapping them at the same time in sweet strains. And the reason of this is obvious. The affections, both of the Bacchantes and of the children, arise from fear, and this fear is occasioned by something wrong which is going on within them. Now a violent external commotion tends to calm the violent internal one; it quiets the palpitation of the heart, giving to the children sleep, and bringing back the Bacchantes to their right minds by the help of dances and acceptable sacrifices. But if fear has such power, will not a child who is always in a state of terror grow up timid and cowardly, whereas if he learns from the first to resist fear he will develop a habit of courage? 'Very true.' And we may say that the use of motion will inspire the souls of children with cheerfulness and therefore with courage. 'Of course.' Softness enervates and irritates the temper of the young, and violence renders them mean and misanthropical. 'But how is the state to educate them when they are as yet unable to understand the meaning of words?' Why, surely they roar and cry, like the young of any other animal, and the nurse knows the meaning of these intimations of the child's likes or dislikes, and the occasions which call them forth. About three years is passed by children in a state of imperfect articulation, which is quite long enough time to make them either good- or ill-tempered. And, therefore, during these first three years, the infant should be as free as possible from fear and pain. 'Yes, and he should have as much pleasure as possible.' There, I think, you are wrong; for the influence of pleasure in the beginning of education is fatal. A man should neither pursue pleasure nor wholly avoid pain. He should embrace the mean, and cultivate that state of calm which mankind, taught by some inspiration, attribute to God; and he who would be like God should neither be too fond of pleasure himself, nor should he permit any other to be thus given; above all, not the infant, whose character is just in the making. It may sound ridiculous, but I affirm that a woman in her pregnancy should be carefully tended, and kept from excessive pleasures and pains.
And now, moving on from the body, let's talk about the soul; but first, we need to emphasize that constant movement, day and night, is beneficial for young ones. This is demonstrated by the Corybantian method of motion therapy and by how caregivers soothe infants by rocking them while singing softly. The reason for this is clear. The emotions of both the Bacchantes and children stem from fear, which is caused by something wrong happening inside them. A strong external movement helps calm the intense internal turmoil; it eases the pounding of the heart, providing sleep for children and bringing the Bacchantes back to their senses through dances and pleasing offerings. But if fear has such an effect, won't a child who constantly experiences fear grow up timid and cowardly? Whereas, if they learn to confront fear early on, they'll develop a habit of courage? 'Absolutely.' We can say that motion will fill children's souls with joy and, consequently, courage. 'Definitely.' Softness weakens and irritates the temperament of young people, while violence makes them petty and misanthropic. 'But how can the state educate them when they can't yet grasp the meaning of words?' Well, they cry and wail just like the young of any other animals, and caregivers understand what these signals of the child's preferences and dislikes mean, as well as what triggers them. Children spend about three years in a stage of limited speech, which is adequate time to shape their temperament. Therefore, during these initial three years, infants should experience as little fear and pain as possible. 'Yes, and they should also enjoy as much pleasure as they can.' I think that's mistaken; the impact of pleasure at the start of education can be harmful. A person shouldn't chase after pleasure or completely avoid pain. Instead, they should find a balance and cultivate a state of tranquility that people, inspired by some insight, attribute to God; and anyone who wishes to be godlike should neither indulge excessively in pleasure nor allow others to do so, particularly infants, whose characters are just beginning to form. It may seem absurd, but I insist that a pregnant woman should be carefully looked after and shielded from extreme pleasures and pains.
'I quite agree with you about the duty of avoiding extremes and following the mean.'
"I totally agree with you about the importance of avoiding extremes and finding balance."
Let us consider a further point. The matters which are now in question are generally called customs rather than laws; and we have already made the reflection that, though they are not, properly speaking, laws, yet neither can they be neglected. For they fill up the interstices of law, and are the props and ligatures on which the strength of the whole building depends. Laws without customs never last; and we must not wonder if habit and custom sometimes lengthen out our laws. 'Very true.' Up to their third year, then, the life of children may be regulated by customs such as we have described. From three to six their minds have to be amused; but they must not be allowed to become self-willed and spoilt. If punishment is necessary, the same rule will hold as in the case of slaves; they must neither be punished in hot blood nor ruined by indulgence. The children of that age will have their own modes of amusing themselves; they should be brought for their play to the village temples, and placed under the care of nurses, who will be responsible to twelve matrons annually chosen by the women who have authority over marriage. These shall be appointed, one out of each tribe, and their duty shall be to keep order at the meetings: slaves who break the rules laid down by them, they shall punish by the help of some of the public slaves; but citizens who dispute their authority shall be brought before the magistrates. After six years of age there shall be a separation of the sexes; the boys will go to learn riding and the use of arms, and the girls may, if they please, also learn. Here I note a practical error in early training. Mothers and nurses foolishly believe that the left hand is by nature different from the right, whereas the left leg and foot are acknowledged to be the same as the right. But the truth is that nature made all things to balance, and the power of using the left hand, which is of little importance in the case of the plectrum of the lyre, may make a great difference in the art of the warrior, who should be a skilled gymnast and able to fight and balance himself in any position. If a man were a Briareus, he should use all his hundred hands at once; at any rate, let everybody employ the two which they have. To these matters the magistrates, male and female, should attend; the women superintending the nursing and amusement of the children, and the men superintending their education, that all of them, boys and girls alike, may be sound, wind and limb, and not spoil the gifts of nature by bad habits.
Let's consider another point. The issues we're discussing are usually referred to as customs rather than laws, and we’ve already noted that while they aren't strictly laws, they can't be ignored either. They fill in the gaps left by law and are the essential supports on which the entire structure relies. Laws without customs never endure; so it's no surprise that habit and custom sometimes extend the reach of our laws. That’s true. Up to the age of three, the lives of children can be guided by the customs we've talked about. From ages three to six, their minds need to be entertained, but they shouldn't be allowed to become willful or spoiled. If punishment is necessary, the same principle applies as with slaves; they shouldn't be punished in anger or ruined by overindulgence. Children at that age will have their own ways of playing; they should be taken to the village temples for recreation and placed under the care of nurses, who will report to twelve matrons selected each year by the women in charge of marriage. These matrons will be chosen, one from each tribe, and their role will be to maintain order during gatherings: slaves who violate their rules will be punished with the help of some public slaves, but citizens challenging their authority will be brought before the magistrates. After age six, boys and girls will be separated; boys will learn to ride and handle weapons, while girls may also choose to learn if they wish. Here, I point out a common mistake in early training. Mothers and nurses mistakenly think that the left hand is inherently different from the right, even though the left leg and foot are recognized as identical to the right. The reality is that nature designed everything to be balanced, and the ability to use the left hand, which might not matter much for playing the lyre, can make a big difference for a warrior, who should be a capable athlete and able to fight and balance themselves in any position. If a person were a Briareus, they should use all their hundred hands at once; at the very least, everyone should utilize both hands they have. Magistrates, both male and female, should oversee these matters; women should supervise the nursing and play of the children, while men should oversee their education, ensuring that all children—boys and girls alike—are healthy and strong, without spoiling their natural abilities through bad habits.
Education has two branches—gymnastic, which is concerned with the body; and music, which improves the soul. And gymnastic has two parts, dancing and wrestling. Of dancing one kind imitates musical recitation and aims at stateliness and freedom; another kind is concerned with the training of the body, and produces health, agility, and beauty. There is no military use in the complex systems of wrestling which pass under the names of Antaeus and Cercyon, or in the tricks of boxing, which are attributed to Amycus and Epeius; but good wrestling and the habit of extricating the neck, hands, and sides, should be diligently learnt and taught. In our dances imitations of war should be practised, as in the dances of the Curetes in Crete and of the Dioscuri at Sparta, or as in the dances in complete armour which were taught us Athenians by the goddess Athene. Youths who are not yet of an age to go to war should make religious processions armed and on horseback; and they should also engage in military games and contests. These exercises will be equally useful in peace and war, and will benefit both states and families.
Education has two parts—physical training, which focuses on the body, and music, which nurtures the soul. Physical training consists of two areas: dancing and wrestling. One type of dance mimics musical recitation and aims for elegance and freedom, while another type focuses on physical conditioning, promoting health, agility, and beauty. There’s no real military value in the elaborate wrestling styles named after Antaeus and Cercyon, or in the boxing techniques associated with Amycus and Epeius. However, good wrestling and learning how to escape holds on the neck, hands, and sides are important skills to be developed and taught. Our dances should include war imitations, like the dances of the Curetes in Crete and the Dioscuri at Sparta, or the warrior dances that the goddess Athene taught us Athenians while wearing full armor. Young people who are not yet old enough to fight should participate in religious processions while armed and mounted on horseback, and they should also take part in military games and contests. These practices will be beneficial in both peace and war, helping both communities and families.
Next follows music, to which we will once more return; and here I shall venture to repeat my old paradox, that amusements have great influence on laws. He who has been taught to play at the same games and with the same playthings will be content with the same laws. There is no greater evil in a state than the spirit of innovation. In the case of the seasons and winds, in the management of our bodies and in the habits of our minds, change is a dangerous thing. And in everything but what is bad the same rule holds. We all venerate and acquiesce in the laws to which we are accustomed; and if they have continued during long periods of time, and there is no remembrance of their ever having been otherwise, people are absolutely afraid to change them. Now how can we create this quality of immobility in the laws? I say, by not allowing innovations in the games and plays of children. The children who are always having new plays, when grown up will be always having new laws. Changes in mere fashions are not serious evils, but changes in our estimate of men's characters are most serious; and rhythms and music are representations of characters, and therefore we must avoid novelties in dance and song. For securing permanence no better method can be imagined than that of the Egyptians. 'What is their method?' They make a calendar for the year, arranging on what days the festivals of the various Gods shall be celebrated, and for each festival they consecrate an appropriate hymn and dance. In our state a similar arrangement shall in the first instance be framed by certain individuals, and afterwards solemnly ratified by all the citizens. He who introduces other hymns or dances shall be excluded by the priests and priestesses and the guardians of the law; and if he refuses to submit, he may be prosecuted for impiety. But we must not be too ready to speak about such great matters. Even a young man, when he hears something unaccustomed, stands and looks this way and that, like a traveller at a place where three ways meet; and at our age a man ought to be very sure of his ground in so singular an argument. 'Very true.' Then, leaving the subject for further examination at some future time, let us proceed with our laws about education, for in this manner we may probably throw light upon our present difficulty. 'Let us do as you say.' The ancients used the term nomoi to signify harmonious strains, and perhaps they fancied that there was a connexion between the songs and laws of a country. And we say—Whosoever shall transgress the strains by law established is a transgressor of the laws, and shall be punished by the guardians of the law and by the priests and priestesses. 'Very good.' How can we legislate about these consecrated strains without incurring ridicule? Moulds or types must be first framed, and one of the types shall be—Abstinence from evil words at sacrifices. When a son or brother blasphemes at a sacrifice there is a sound of ill-omen heard in the family; and many a chorus stands by the altar uttering inauspicious words, and he is crowned victor who excites the hearers most with lamentations. Such lamentations should be reserved for evil days, and should be uttered only by hired mourners; and let the singers not wear circlets or ornaments of gold. To avoid every evil word, then, shall be our first type. 'Agreed.' Our second law or type shall be, that prayers ever accompany sacrifices; and our third, that, inasmuch as all prayers are requests, they shall be only for good; this the poets must be made to understand. 'Certainly.' Have we not already decided that no gold or silver Plutus shall be allowed in our city? And did not this show that we were dissatisfied with the poets? And may we not fear that, if they are allowed to utter injudicious prayers, they will bring the greatest misfortunes on the state? And we must therefore make a law that the poet is not to contradict the laws or ideas of the state; nor is he to show his poems to any private persons until they have first received the imprimatur of the director of education. A fourth musical law will be to the effect that hymns and praises shall be offered to Gods, and to heroes and demigods. Still another law will permit eulogies of eminent citizens, whether men or women, but only after their death. As to songs and dances, we will enact as follows:—There shall be a selection made of the best ancient musical compositions and dances; these shall be chosen by judges, who ought not to be less than fifty years of age. They will accept some, and reject or amend others, for which purpose they will call, if necessary, the poets themselves into council. The severe and orderly music is the style in which to educate children, who, if they are accustomed to this, will deem the opposite kind to be illiberal, but if they are accustomed to the other, will count this to be cold and unpleasing. 'True.' Further, a distinction should be made between the melodies of men and women. Nature herself teaches that the grand or manly style should be assigned to men, and to women the moderate and temperate. So much for the subjects of education. But to whom are they to be taught, and when? I must try, like the shipwright, who lays down the keel of a vessel, to build a secure foundation for the vessel of the soul in her voyage through life. Human affairs are hardly serious, and yet a sad necessity compels us to be serious about them. Let us, therefore, do our best to bring the matter to a conclusion. 'Very good.' I say then, that God is the object of a man's most serious endeavours. But man is created to be the plaything of the Gods; and therefore the aim of every one should be to pass through life, not in grim earnest, but playing at the noblest of pastimes, in another spirit from that which now prevails. For the common opinion is, that work is for the sake of play, war of peace; whereas in war there is neither amusement nor instruction worth speaking of. The life of peace is that which men should chiefly desire to lengthen out and improve. They should live sacrificing, singing, and dancing, with the view of propitiating Gods and heroes. I have already told you the types of song and dance which they should follow: and 'Some things,' as the poet well says, 'you will devise for yourself—others, God will suggest to you.'
Next comes music, which we'll return to once again. I'll go ahead and repeat my old idea that entertainment has a big impact on laws. Someone who has played the same games and with the same toys will be satisfied with the same laws. There's no greater problem in a society than a spirit of change. When it comes to seasons and winds, taking care of our bodies, and managing our thoughts, change can be dangerous. This rule applies to everything but what's bad. We all respect and accept the laws we're used to; if they’ve been around for a long time and there’s no memory of them being different, people become genuinely afraid to change them. So how can we create this kind of stability in the laws? I suggest we avoid introducing new games and play for children. Kids who are always playing new games will grow up to have new laws. Changes in mere fashions aren’t serious problems, but changes in how we view people's characters are extremely serious; music and rhythms reflect characters, so we must steer clear of innovations in dance and song. To ensure permanence, we can follow a model from the Egyptians. 'What’s their method?' They create a yearly calendar detailing when to celebrate different gods, and for each festival, they dedicate an appropriate hymn and dance. In our society, a similar setup will be initially proposed by a select group, then officially approved by all the citizens. Anyone introducing different hymns or dances will be banned by the priests and guardians of the law; if they refuse to comply, they could face charges of impiety. But we shouldn’t rush to discuss such serious matters. Even a young man, encountering something unfamiliar, stops and looks around like a traveler at a crossroads; someone of our age should be very certain in such a unique debate. 'Very true.' So, let’s put this aside for future exploration and move on to our laws about education, as this might shed light on our current challenge. 'Let’s do as you suggest.' The ancients used the term nomoi to mean harmonious tunes, possibly believing there was a connection between a country’s songs and its laws. We say—Whoever violates the established musical norms is also violating the laws and will be punished by the law’s guardians and the priests. 'Sounds good.' How can we legislate around these sacred tunes without being mocked? We need to establish some guidelines first, with the first rule being—No bad language at sacrifices. When a son or brother curses at a sacrifice, it brings a bad omen into the family; many participants around the altar utter inauspicious words, and the one who howls the loudest is declared the victor. Such mourning should be reserved for unfortunate times and should only be done by hired mourners; and let the singers avoid wearing crowns or gold trinkets. Therefore, avoiding all offensive language will be our first guideline. 'Agreed.' Our second rule will be that prayers must always accompany sacrifices; our third rule states that since all prayers are requests, they should only ask for good. Poets need to understand this. 'Certainly.' Haven’t we already decided that no riches will be allowed in our city? Doesn’t this indicate our dissatisfaction with the poets? Shouldn’t we fear that if they’re permitted to express unwise prayers, they might bring disaster upon the state? Therefore, we need to establish a law stating that poets cannot contradict the state’s laws or principles; they’re not allowed to share their poems with anyone until they receive approval from the head of education. A fourth musical rule will dictate that hymns and praises are to be offered to gods, heroes, and demigods. Another rule will allow eulogies for distinguished citizens, whether men or women, but only after their death. Regarding songs and dances, we will enact the following: a selection of the best ancient musical pieces and dances will be made; these will be chosen by judges who should be at least fifty years old. They’ll accept some, and either reject or modify others, calling in poets if necessary. The serious and structured musical style is the way to educate children; if they become used to this, they will view the opposite style as crass, while those used to the latter will find this one dull and unappealing. 'True.' Additionally, we should differentiate between the melodies for men and women. Nature herself suggests that the grand and manly style is for men, while women should have the moderate and temperate style. So much for education topics. But who will they be taught to, and when? I must try, like a shipbuilder setting the keel of a ship, to create a solid foundation for the soul's journey through life. Human affairs often lack seriousness, yet unfortunate necessity compels us to take them seriously. Let’s do our best to reach a conclusion. 'Very good.' I say that God is the focus of a man's most earnest efforts. But men are made to be the playthings of the gods; therefore, everyone should aim to journey through life not in grim seriousness but in the spirit of the noblest games, in a way different from how things are now. The common belief is that work exists for play, and war for peace; yet in war, there's little amusement or meaningful education. The life of peace should be what people strive to prolong and enhance. They should live by sacrificing, singing, and dancing, aiming to honor the gods and heroes. I have already outlined the types of songs and dances they should follow: and, as the poet rightly states, 'Some things, you will craft for yourself—others, God will inspire in you.'
These words of his may be applied to our pupils. They will partly teach themselves, and partly will be taught by God, the art of propitiating Him; for they are His puppets, and have only a small portion in truth. 'You have a poor opinion of man.' No wonder, when I compare him with God; but, if you are offended, I will place him a little higher.
These words of his can be applied to our students. They will learn some things on their own and will also be taught by God how to win Him over; they are His puppets and have only a limited grasp of the truth. 'You have a low view of humanity.' It's no surprise when I compare people to God; however, if it bothers you, I’ll raise them up a bit.
Next follow the building for gymnasia and schools; these will be in the midst of the city, and outside will be riding-schools and archery-grounds. In all of them there ought to be instructors of the young, drawn from foreign parts by pay, and they will teach them music and war. Education shall be compulsory; the children must attend school, whether their parents like it or not; for they belong to the state more than to their parents. And I say further, without hesitation, that the same education in riding and gymnastic shall be given both to men and women. The ancient tradition about the Amazons confirms my view, and at the present day there are myriads of women, called Sauromatides, dwelling near the Pontus, who practise the art of riding as well as archery and the use of arms. But if I am right, nothing can be more foolish than our modern fashion of training men and women differently, whereby the power the city is reduced to a half. For reflect—if women are not to have the education of men, some other must be found for them, and what other can we propose? Shall they, like the women of Thrace, tend cattle and till the ground; or, like our own, spin and weave, and take care of the house? or shall they follow the Spartan custom, which is between the two?—there the maidens share in gymnastic exercises and in music; and the grown women, no longer engaged in spinning, weave the web of life, although they are not skilled in archery, like the Amazons, nor can they imitate our warrior goddess and carry shield or spear, even in the extremity of their country's need. Compared with our women, the Sauromatides are like men. But your legislators, Megillus, as I maintain, only half did their work; they took care of the men, and left the women to take care of themselves.
Next, we have the buildings for gyms and schools; these will be in the center of the city, with riding schools and archery ranges outside. All of these places should have instructors from other regions, paid to teach the youth music and martial skills. Education will be mandatory; children must go to school, no matter their parents' feelings about it, because they belong to the state more than to their families. Furthermore, I firmly believe that the same education in riding and athletics should be provided for both men and women. The ancient story of the Amazons supports my viewpoint, and even today there are many women, known as Sauromatides, living near the Black Sea who practice riding, archery, and weaponry. If I am correct, nothing is more foolish than our current practice of training men and women differently, which limits the city’s potential. Think about it—if women aren't given the same education as men, we have to find another type for them, and what could that be? Should they, like the women of Thrace, tend livestock and farm the land? Or, like our own, spin and weave and manage the household? Or should they adopt the Spartan approach, which is a mix of both?—there, young women participate in athletic exercises and music, while adult women, no longer busy with spinning, weave the fabric of life, even though they lack skills in archery like the Amazons and cannot equip themselves like our warrior goddess in times of crisis. Compared to our women, the Sauromatides are almost like men. But your lawmakers, Megillus, I argue, only accomplished half of what they needed to; they focused on men and left women to fend for themselves.
'Shall we suffer the Stranger, Cleinias, to run down Sparta in this way?'
'Should we let the Stranger, Cleinias, criticize Sparta like this?'
'Why, yes; for we cannot withdraw the liberty which we have already conceded to him.'
'Of course; we can't take back the freedom we've already given him.'
What will be the manner of life of men in moderate circumstances, freed from the toils of agriculture and business, and having common tables for themselves and their families which are under the inspection of magistrates, male and female? Are men who have these institutions only to eat and fatten like beasts? If they do, how can they escape the fate of a fatted beast, which is to be torn in pieces by some other beast more valiant than himself? True, theirs is not the perfect way of life, for they have not all things in common; but the second best way of life also confers great blessings. Even those who live in the second state have a work to do twice as great as the work of any Pythian or Olympic victor; for their labour is for the body only, but ours both for body and soul. And this higher work ought to be pursued night and day to the exclusion of every other. The magistrates who keep the city should be wakeful, and the master of the household should be up early and before all his servants; and the mistress, too, should awaken her handmaidens, and not be awakened by them. Much sleep is not required either for our souls or bodies. When a man is asleep, he is no better than if he were dead; and he who loves life and wisdom will take no more sleep than is necessary for health. Magistrates who are wide awake at night are terrible to the bad; but they are honoured by the good, and are useful to themselves and the state.
What will life be like for people in moderate circumstances, free from the burdens of farming and business, and sharing communal meals with their families under the supervision of male and female magistrates? Are those with these structures meant to just eat and grow fat like animals? If that’s the case, how can they avoid the fate of a fattened animal, which is to be slaughtered by a stronger beast? True, their way of life isn't perfect since they don't have everything in common, but even a second-best way of living brings significant benefits. Those in this second state have tasks that are twice as demanding as those of any Pythian or Olympic champion; while their work is solely for the body, ours serves both body and soul. This higher purpose should be pursued day and night, without distractions. The magistrates who oversee the city need to be alert, and the head of the household should rise early before all their servants; the mistress should also awaken her maidens instead of being awakened by them. Neither our souls nor bodies require excessive sleep. When a person is asleep, they are no better off than if they were dead; those who cherish life and wisdom should only sleep as much as is needed for their health. Alert magistrates at night instill fear in the wicked, but they are respected by the good and are beneficial to themselves and the state.
When the morning dawns, let the boy go to school. As the sheep need the shepherd, so the boy needs a master; for he is at once the most cunning and the most insubordinate of creatures. Let him be taken away from mothers and nurses, and tamed with bit and bridle, being treated as a freeman in that he learns and is taught, but as a slave in that he may be chastised by all other freemen; and the freeman who neglects to chastise him shall be disgraced. All these matters will be under the supervision of the Director of Education.
When morning comes, the boy should go to school. Just as sheep need a shepherd, the boy needs a teacher; he is both clever and rebellious. He should be separated from mothers and caregivers, and trained with discipline, treated as a free person because he learns and is educated, but also as someone who can be corrected by all other free people. Any free person who fails to correct him will be looked down upon. All of this will be managed by the Director of Education.
Him we will address as follows: We have spoken to you, O illustrious teacher of youth, of the song, the time, and the dance, and of martial strains; but of the learning of letters and of prose writings, and of music, and of the use of calculation for military and domestic purposes we have not spoken, nor yet of the higher use of numbers in reckoning divine things—such as the revolutions of the stars, or the arrangements of days, months, and years, of which the true calculation is necessary in order that seasons and festivals may proceed in regular course, and arouse and enliven the city, rendering to the Gods their due, and making men know them better. There are, we say, many things about which we have not as yet instructed you—and first, as to reading and music: Shall the pupil be a perfect scholar and musician, or not even enter on these studies? He should certainly enter on both:—to letters he will apply himself from the age of ten to thirteen, and at thirteen he will begin to handle the lyre, and continue to learn music until he is sixteen; no shorter and no longer time will be allowed, however fond he or his parents may be of the pursuit. The study of letters he should carry to the extent of simple reading and writing, but he need not care for calligraphy and tachygraphy, if his natural gifts do not enable him to acquire them in the three years. And here arises a question as to the learning of compositions when unaccompanied with music, I mean, prose compositions. They are a dangerous species of literature. Speak then, O guardians of the law, and tell us what we shall do about them. 'You seem to be in a difficulty.' Yes; it is difficult to go against the opinion of all the world. 'But have we not often already done so?' Very true. And you imply that the road which we are taking, though disagreeable to many, is approved by those whose judgment is most worth having. 'Certainly.' Then I would first observe that we have many poets, comic as well as tragic, with whose compositions, as people say, youth are to be imbued and saturated. Some would have them learn by heart entire poets; others prefer extracts. Now I believe, and the general opinion is, that some of the things which they learn are good, and some bad. 'Then how shall we reject some and select others?' A happy thought occurs to me; this long discourse of ours is a sample of what we want, and is moreover an inspired work and a kind of poem. I am naturally pleased in reflecting upon all our words, which appear to me to be just the thing for a young man to hear and learn. I would venture, then, to offer to the Director of Education this treatise of laws as a pattern for his guidance; and in case he should find any similar compositions, written or oral, I would have him carefully preserve them, and commit them in the first place to the teachers who are willing to learn them (he should turn off the teacher who refuses), and let them communicate the lesson to the young.
We will address him as follows: We’ve talked to you, O great teacher of youth, about song, rhythm, and dance, as well as martial music; however, we haven't yet discussed the basics of reading and writing, prose, music, or the practical application of math for military and everyday life. We haven't even touched upon the advanced use of numbers to understand divine matters—like the movements of the stars or the organization of days, months, and years, which is essential for keeping seasons and festivals on track, energizing the city, honoring the Gods, and helping people better understand them. There are many topics we haven’t covered yet—first among them, reading and music: Should the student become a well-rounded scholar and musician, or avoid these subjects entirely? They should definitely pursue both: they will focus on reading from ages ten to thirteen, start learning the lyre at thirteen, and continue their music education until sixteen; no less and no more time will be allowed, no matter how much the student or their parents love it. The study of reading should reach the level of simple reading and writing, but there's no need for fancy handwriting or shorthand if they can't master those skills in three years. This raises a question about learning prose compositions without music; they can be tricky. So, O guardians of the law, what should we do about them? 'You seem to have a dilemma.' Yes; it's tough to go against what everyone thinks. 'But haven't we often done that already?' True enough. And you suggest that the path we're on, even if it’s not popular, is endorsed by those whose judgment matters most. 'Absolutely.' Then I’d first note that we have many poets, both comic and tragic, whose works, as people say, young people should absorb. Some suggest that students memorize whole poems; others prefer excerpts. I believe—and many agree—that some of what they learn is good and some is not. 'So how do we discard some and choose others?' A great idea comes to mind; this long discussion of ours is a model of what we want and is also inspired and kind of poetic. I'm naturally pleased reflecting on all our words, which seem perfect for a young person to hear and learn. I’d like to propose that we offer this treatise of laws as a guideline for the Director of Education; if he finds any similar written or spoken materials, he should keep them safe and first give them to teachers who are open to learning (he should dismiss those who aren’t), so they can pass the lessons on to the young.
I have said enough to the teacher of letters; and now we will proceed to the teacher of the lyre. He must be reminded of the advice which we gave to the sexagenarian minstrels; like them he should be quick to perceive the rhythms suited to the expression of virtue, and to reject the opposite. With a view to the attainment of this object, the pupil and his instructor are to use the lyre because its notes are pure; the voice and string should coincide note for note: nor should there be complex harmonies and contrasts of intervals, or variations of times or rhythms. Three years' study is not long enough to give a knowledge of these intricacies; and our pupils will have many things of more importance to learn. The tunes and hymns which are to be consecrated for each festival have been already determined by us.
I've said enough to the teacher of writing; now let's move on to the teacher of the lyre. We need to remind him of the advice we gave to the older musicians; like them, he should quickly notice the rhythms that express virtue and avoid the opposite. To achieve this, the student and instructor will use the lyre because its notes are clear; the voice and string should match perfectly note for note: there shouldn't be complicated harmonies or contrasting intervals, or changes in timing or rhythms. Three years of study isn't enough to master these complexities, and our students will have many more important things to learn. The songs and hymns designated for each festival have already been decided by us.
Having given these instructions to the Director of Music, let us now proceed to dancing and gymnastic, which must also be taught to boys and girls by masters and mistresses. Our minister of education will have a great deal to do; and being an old man, how will he get through so much work? There is no difficulty;—the law will provide him with assistants, male and female; and he will consider how important his office is, and how great the responsibility of choosing them. For if education prospers, the vessel of state sails merrily along; or if education fails, the consequences are not even to be mentioned. Of dancing and gymnastics something has been said already. We include under the latter military exercises, the various uses of arms, all that relates to horsemanship, and military evolutions and tactics. There should be public teachers of both arts, paid by the state, and women as well as men should be trained in them. The maidens should learn the armed dance, and the grown-up women be practised in drill and the use of arms, if only in case of extremity, when the men are gone out to battle, and they are left to guard their families. Birds and beasts defend their young, but women instead of fighting run to the altars, thus degrading man below the level of the animals. 'Such a lack of education, Stranger, is both unseemly and dangerous.'
Having given these instructions to the Music Director, let’s move on to dancing and gymnastics, which must also be taught to both boys and girls by qualified teachers. Our education minister will have a lot on his plate; being an older man, how will he handle all this work? It's not a problem—the law will provide him with both male and female assistants, and he'll need to consider how important his position is and the significant responsibility that comes with selecting them. If education succeeds, the state functions smoothly; but if it fails, the consequences are too severe to even discuss. We've already mentioned dancing and gymnastics. Under gymnastics, we include military training, the various uses of weapons, all aspects of horseback riding, and military maneuvers and tactics. There should be public instructors for both disciplines, funded by the state, and both women and men should be trained in them. Young women should learn the armed dance, and adult women should practice drills and the use of weapons, especially in case of emergencies when men are out fighting and they are left to protect their families. Animals fiercely defend their young, but women instead of fighting run to the temples, which lowers men below the level of animals. 'Such a lack of education, Stranger, is both inappropriate and risky.'
Wrestling is to be pursued as a military exercise, but the meaning of this, and the nature of the art, can only be explained when action is combined with words. Next follows dancing, which is of two kinds; imitative, first, of the serious and beautiful; and, secondly, of the ludicrous and grotesque. The first kind may be further divided into the dance of war and the dance of peace. The former is called the Pyrrhic; in this the movements of attack and defence are imitated in a direct and manly style, which indicates strength and sufficiency of body and mind. The latter of the two, the dance of peace, is suitable to orderly and law-abiding men. These must be distinguished from the Bacchic dances which imitate drunken revelry, and also from the dances by which purifications are effected and mysteries celebrated. Such dances cannot be characterized either as warlike or peaceful, and are unsuited to a civilized state. Now the dances of peace are of two classes:—the first of them is the more violent, being an expression of joy and triumph after toil and danger; the other is more tranquil, symbolizing the continuance and preservation of good. In speaking or singing we naturally move our bodies, and as we have more or less courage or self-control we become less or more violent and excited. Thus from the imitation of words in gestures the art of dancing arises. Now one man imitates in an orderly, another in a disorderly manner: and so the peaceful kinds of dance have been appropriately called Emmeleiai, or dances of order, as the warlike have been called Pyrrhic. In the latter a man imitates all sorts of blows and the hurling of weapons and the avoiding of them; in the former he learns to bear himself gracefully and like a gentleman. The types of these dances are to be fixed by the legislator, and when the guardians of the law have assigned them to the several festivals, and consecrated them in due order, no further change shall be allowed.
Wrestling should be practiced as a military exercise, but the significance of this and the nature of the craft can only be understood when actions are paired with words. Next is dancing, which comes in two forms: first, the serious and beautiful, and second, the funny and grotesque. The first type can be divided further into the dance of war and the dance of peace. The war dance is known as the Pyrrhic; in this, the movements of attack and defense are mimicked in a direct and strong manner, reflecting both physical and mental strength. The peace dance, on the other hand, is for orderly and law-abiding individuals. This must be distinguished from the Bacchic dances, which mimic drunken festivities, as well as dances that promote purification and celebrate mysteries. These latter dances can't be classified as either warlike or peaceful and are not suitable for a civilized society. The peace dances fall into two categories: the first is more vigorous, expressing joy and victory after hardship and danger, while the second is calmer, representing the continuation and preservation of good. When we speak or sing, we naturally move our bodies, and depending on our level of courage or self-control, we may become more or less animated and excitable. Thus, the art of dance emerges from mimicking words through gestures. Some people imitate movements in an orderly way, while others do so chaotically; the peaceful dance styles have been aptly named Emmeleiai, or dances of order, much like the war dances are called Pyrrhic. In the Pyrrhic, a performer mimics various strikes, weapon throws, and evasions; in the Emmeleiai, one learns to conduct oneself with grace and dignity. The types of these dances should be established by the lawmakers, and once the guardians of the law have designated them for specific festivals and have celebrated them appropriately, no further changes shall be permitted.
Thus much of the dances which are appropriate to fair forms and noble souls. Comedy, which is the opposite of them, remains to be considered. For the serious implies the ludicrous, and opposites cannot be understood without opposites. But a man of repute will desire to avoid doing what is ludicrous. He should leave such performances to slaves,—they are not fit for freemen; and there should be some element of novelty in them. Concerning tragedy, let our law be as follows: When the inspired poet comes to us with a request to be admitted into our state, we will reply in courteous words—We also are tragedians and your rivals; and the drama which we enact is the best and noblest, being the imitation of the truest and noblest life, with a view to which our state is ordered. And we cannot allow you to pitch your stage in the agora, and make your voices to be heard above ours, or suffer you to address our women and children and the common people on opposite principles to our own. Come then, ye children of the Lydian Muse, and present yourselves first to the magistrates, and if they decide that your hymns are as good or better than ours, you shall have your chorus; but if not, not.
So much for the dances suited to beautiful forms and noble souls. Now we need to think about comedy, which is its opposite. The serious implies the ridiculous, and you can’t understand one without the other. But a person of good standing would want to avoid anything silly. Such performances should be left to those of lower status—they're not meant for free people; there should be something fresh about them. Regarding tragedy, let our rule be as follows: When a talented poet approaches us wanting to join our community, we should respond politely—We are also tragedians and your competitors; the drama we put on is the finest and most honorable, as it reflects the truest and noblest life, which is the purpose of our society. We can't allow you to set up your stage in the public square and have your voices drown out ours, nor allow you to speak to our women and children and the general public with ideas that go against ours. So come, children of the Lydian Muse, and first present yourselves to the officials; if they decide that your hymns are as good or better than ours, you'll get your chance; if not, then you won't.
There remain three kinds of knowledge which should be learnt by freemen—arithmetic, geometry of surfaces and of solids, and thirdly, astronomy. Few need make an accurate study of such sciences; and of special students we will speak at another time. But most persons must be content with the study of them which is absolutely necessary, and may be said to be a necessity of that nature against which God himself is unable to contend. 'What are these divine necessities of knowledge?' Necessities of a knowledge without which neither gods, nor demigods, can govern mankind. And far is he from being a divine man who cannot distinguish one, two, odd and even; who cannot number day and night, and is ignorant of the revolutions of the sun and stars; for to every higher knowledge a knowledge of number is necessary—a fool may see this; how much, is a matter requiring more careful consideration. 'Very true.' But the legislator cannot enter into such details, and therefore we must defer the more careful consideration of these matters to another occasion. 'You seem to fear our habitual want of training in these subjects.' Still more do I fear the danger of bad training, which is often worse than none at all. 'Very true.' I think that a gentleman and a freeman may be expected to know as much as an Egyptian child. In Egypt, arithmetic is taught to children in their sports by a distribution of apples or garlands among a greater or less number of people; or a calculation is made of the various combinations which are possible among a set of boxers or wrestlers; or they distribute cups among the children, sometimes of gold, brass, and silver intermingled, sometimes of one metal only. The knowledge of arithmetic which is thus acquired is a great help, either to the general or to the manager of a household; wherever measure is employed, men are more wide-awake in their dealings, and they get rid of their ridiculous ignorance. 'What do you mean?' I have observed this ignorance among my countrymen—they are like pigs—and I am heartily ashamed both on my own behalf and on that of all the Hellenes. 'In what respect?' Let me ask you a question. You know that there are such things as length, breadth, and depth? 'Yes.' And the Hellenes imagine that they are commensurable (1) with themselves, and (2) with each other; whereas they are only commensurable with themselves. But if this is true, then we are in an unfortunate case, and may well say to our compatriots that not to possess necessary knowledge is a disgrace, though to possess such knowledge is nothing very grand. 'Certainly.' The discussion of arithmetical problems is a much better amusement for old men than their favourite game of draughts. 'True.' Mathematics, then, will be one of the subjects in which youth should be trained. They may be regarded as an amusement, as well as a useful and innocent branch of knowledge;—I think that we may include them provisionally. 'Yes; that will be the way.' The next question is, whether astronomy shall be made a part of education. About the stars there is a strange notion prevalent. Men often suppose that it is impious to enquire into the nature of God and the world, whereas the very reverse is the truth. 'How do you mean?' What I am going to say may seem absurd and at variance with the usual language of age, and yet if true and advantageous to the state, and pleasing to God, ought not to be withheld. 'Let us hear.' My dear friend, how falsely do we and all the Hellenes speak about the sun and moon! 'In what respect?' We are always saying that they and certain of the other stars do not keep the same path, and we term them planets. 'Yes; and I have seen the morning and evening stars go all manner of ways, and the sun and moon doing what we know that they always do. But I wish that you would explain your meaning further.' You will easily understand what I have had no difficulty in understanding myself, though we are both of us past the time of learning. 'True; but what is this marvellous knowledge which youth are to acquire, and of which we are ignorant?' Men say that the sun, moon, and stars are planets or wanderers; but this is the reverse of the fact. Each of them moves in one orbit only, which is circular, and not in many; nor is the swiftest of them the slowest, as appears to human eyes. What an insult should we offer to Olympian runners if we were to put the first last and the last first! And if that is a ridiculous error in speaking of men, how much more in speaking of the Gods? They cannot be pleased at our telling falsehoods about them. 'They cannot.' Then people should at least learn so much about them as will enable them to avoid impiety.
There are three types of knowledge that free people should learn—arithmetic, geometry of shapes and solids, and lastly, astronomy. Not everyone needs to dive deep into these subjects; we’ll talk about dedicated students another time. However, most folks should settle for the basic understanding that is absolutely necessary, a necessity that even God cannot oppose. 'What are these essential forms of knowledge?' They are the areas of knowledge that are crucial for gods and demigods to govern humanity. It’s far from divine to be someone who can’t tell one from two, odd from even; who can’t count days and nights, and knows nothing about how the sun and stars move; because understanding numbers is essential for any advanced knowledge—a simpleton can see this; how much understanding is needed is a topic that deserves more thought. 'Very true.' But lawmakers can’t delve into those details, so we’ll set aside a more thorough discussion for a later time. 'You seem concerned about our usual lack of training in these subjects.' Even more so, I worry about bad training, which can be worse than no training at all. 'Very true.' I think a gentleman and a free citizen should know as much as a child from Egypt. In Egypt, kids learn arithmetic while playing, counting out apples or garlands among different people, or figuring out the various matchups of boxers or wrestlers; they distribute cups among the children, sometimes of gold, brass, and silver mixed, other times of just one material. The arithmetic skills they gain this way are really useful, whether for a general or a household manager; wherever measurement is involved, people are sharper and shed their embarrassing ignorance. 'What do you mean?' I’ve seen this ignorance among my countrymen—they act like pigs—and I feel ashamed both for myself and for all Greeks. 'In what way?' Let me ask you something. Are you aware of concepts like length, width, and depth? 'Yes.' Greeks think they can measure these things (1) directly against themselves, and (2) against each other; but they can only measure against themselves. If that’s true, then we’re in a sad situation, and we can justly tell our fellow citizens that lacking essential knowledge is embarrassing, though having such knowledge isn’t overly impressive. 'Absolutely.' Discussing mathematical problems is a much better pastime for older people than playing their beloved game of checkers. 'True.' Therefore, math should be a subject taught to the youth. It can be seen as both entertaining and a useful, harmless area of knowledge;—I think we can provisionally include them. 'Yes; that seems right.' Next, we need to consider whether astronomy should be part of education. There’s a strange belief about the stars. Many men think it’s disrespectful to question the nature of God and the universe, while in reality, the opposite is true. 'What do you mean?' What I’m about to say might seem odd and go against the usual beliefs of our age, but if it’s true and beneficial to the state and pleasing to God, it shouldn’t be kept quiet. 'Let’s hear it.' My dear friend, how wrongly we and all Greeks talk about the sun and moon! 'In what way?' We keep saying they and some other stars don’t follow the same path, calling them planets. 'Yes; I've seen the morning and evening stars moving in all kinds of ways, with the sun and moon doing what we expect them to do. But please explain your point further.' You’ll easily grasp what I’ve already understood, even though we’re both past our learning years. 'True; but what is this amazing knowledge youth should learn that we’re unaware of?' People claim that the sun, moon, and stars are planets or wanderers; but that’s just not accurate. Each of them moves in only one circular path, not multiple paths; nor is the fastest one the slowest, as it seems to human eyes. How insulting would it be to Olympian runners if we ranked the first last and the last first! And if that’s a foolish mistake in talking about humans, how much worse is it when we talk about the gods? They surely can’t be pleased when we spread falsehoods about them. 'They cannot.' So people should at least learn enough about them to avoid being disrespectful.
Enough of education. Hunting and similar pursuits now claim our attention. These require for their regulation that mixture of law and admonition of which we have often spoken; e.g., in what we were saying about the nurture of young children. And therefore the whole duty of the citizen will not consist in mere obedience to the laws; he must regard not only the enactments but also the precepts of the legislator. I will illustrate my meaning by an example. Of hunting there are many kinds—hunting of fish and fowl, man and beast, enemies and friends; and the legislator can neither omit to speak about these things, nor make penal ordinances about them all. 'What is he to do then?' He will praise and blame hunting, having in view the discipline and exercise of youth. And the young man will listen obediently and will regard his praises and censures; neither pleasure nor pain should hinder him. The legislator will express himself in the form of a pious wish for the welfare of the young:—O my friends, he will say, may you never be induced to hunt for fish in the waters, either by day or night; or for men, whether by sea or land. Never let the wish to steal enter into your minds; neither be ye fowlers, which is not an occupation for gentlemen. As to land animals, the legislator will discourage hunting by night, and also the use of nets and snares by day; for these are indolent and unmanly methods. The only mode of hunting which he can praise is with horses and dogs, running, shooting, striking at close quarters. Enough of the prelude: the law shall be as follows:—
Enough of education. It's time to focus on hunting and similar activities. These require a blend of rules and guidance that we've talked about before, like when discussing the upbringing of young children. Therefore, being a good citizen isn't just about following the laws; one must consider both the rules and the advice of the lawmakers. Let me clarify this with an example. There are many types of hunting—hunting fish and birds, people and animals, foes and friends; and the lawmakers can't ignore these issues or create laws for all of them. So, what should they do? They will commend and critique hunting, keeping in mind the training and activities of the youth. The young person will listen respectfully and care about the praise and criticism; neither enjoyment nor discomfort should distract him. The lawmakers will voice their sentiments as a hopeful plea for the young: "Oh my friends, may you never be tempted to hunt for fish in the waters, neither by day nor by night; nor for people, whether at sea or on land. Don’t let the desire to steal enter your minds; don’t engage in fowling, as that’s not a sport for gentlemen." Regarding land animals, the lawmakers will discourage hunting at night, as well as using traps and nets during the day, since those methods are lazy and unmanly. The only method of hunting they can endorse is riding with horses and dogs, running, shooting, or striking up close. Enough of the introduction: the law shall be as follows:—
Let no one hinder the holy order of huntsmen; but let the nightly hunters who lay snares and nets be everywhere prohibited. Let the fowler confine himself to waste places and to the mountains. The fisherman is also permitted to exercise his calling, except in harbours and sacred streams, marshes and lakes; in all other places he may fish, provided he does not make use of poisonous mixtures.
Let nobody interfere with the sacred duty of hunters; however, nightly hunters who set traps and nets are banned everywhere. The bird catcher should stick to barren areas and the mountains. The fisherman can also do his job, except in harbors and sacred waters, marshes, and lakes; in all other areas, he can fish as long as he doesn't use toxic substances.
BOOK VIII. Next, with the help of the Delphian Oracle, we will appoint festivals and sacrifices. There shall be 365 of them, one for every day in the year; and one magistrate, at least, shall offer sacrifice daily according to rites prescribed by a convocation of priests and interpreters, who shall co-operate with the guardians of the law, and supply what the legislator has omitted. Moreover there shall be twelve festivals to the twelve Gods after whom the twelve tribes are named: these shall be celebrated every month with appropriate musical and gymnastic contests. There shall also be festivals for women, to be distinguished from the men's festivals. Nor shall the Gods below be forgotten, but they must be separated from the Gods above—Pluto shall have his own in the twelfth month. He is not the enemy, but the friend of man, who releases the soul from the body, which is at least as good a work as to unite them. Further, those who have to regulate these matters should consider that our state has leisure and abundance, and wishing to be happy, like an individual, should lead a good life; for he who leads such a life neither does nor suffers injury, of which the first is very easy, and the second very difficult of attainment, and is only to be acquired by perfect virtue. A good city has peace, but the evil city is full of wars within and without. To guard against the danger of external enemies the citizens should practise war at least one day in every month; they should go out en masse, including their wives and children, or in divisions, as the magistrates determine, and have mimic contests, imitating in a lively manner real battles; they should also have prizes and encomiums of valour, both for the victors in these contests, and for the victors in the battle of life. The poet who celebrates the victors should be fifty years old at least, and himself a man who has done great deeds. Of such an one the poems may be sung, even though he is not the best of poets. To the director of education and the guardians of the law shall be committed the judgment, and no song, however sweet, which has not been licensed by them shall be recited. These regulations about poetry, and about military expeditions, apply equally to men and to women.
BOOK VIII. Next, with the guidance of the Delphian Oracle, we will establish festivals and sacrifices. There will be 365 of them, one for each day of the year, and at least one magistrate will perform a sacrifice daily, following the rituals set by a gathering of priests and interpreters, who will collaborate with the guardians of the law to fill in any gaps left by the legislator. Additionally, there will be twelve festivals honoring the twelve Gods after whom the twelve tribes are named; these will be celebrated every month with appropriate musical and athletic competitions. There will also be separate festivals for women, distinct from those for men. The Gods of the underworld should not be neglected, but they must be distinguished from the Gods above—Pluto will have his own festival in the twelfth month. He is not an enemy, but a friend to humanity, as he frees the soul from the body, which is at least as great a deed as bringing them together. Furthermore, those in charge of these matters should recognize that our state enjoys leisure and abundance, and in striving for happiness—like an individual—it should lead a good life; for someone who lives well does neither harm nor suffers harm, which is easily avoided while the other is much harder to achieve and can only be attained through true virtue. A good city is peaceful, while a corrupt city is rife with internal and external conflicts. To protect against the threats from external enemies, citizens should train for war at least one day each month; they should gather as a group, including their wives and children, or in divisions as directed by the magistrates, and engage in mock contests that realistically simulate real battles. There should also be prizes and recognition for bravery, both for winners of these competitions and for champions in the challenges of life. The poet who honors the victors should be at least fifty years old and a person who has achieved great things himself. The poems about him may be celebrated, even if he is not the greatest poet. The responsibility for judgment lies with the director of education and the guardians of the law, and no song, however beautiful, may be recited unless it has their approval. These regulations regarding poetry and military exercises apply equally to men and women.
The legislator may be conceived to make the following address to himself:—With what object am I training my citizens? Are they not strivers for mastery in the greatest of combats? Certainly, will be the reply. And if they were boxers or wrestlers, would they think of entering the lists without many days' practice? Would they not as far as possible imitate all the circumstances of the contest; and if they had no one to box with, would they not practise on a lifeless image, heedless of the laughter of the spectators? And shall our soldiers go out to fight for life and kindred and property unprepared, because sham fights are thought to be ridiculous? Will not the legislator require that his citizens shall practise war daily, performing lesser exercises without arms, while the combatants on a greater scale will carry arms, and take up positions, and lie in ambuscade? And let their combats be not without danger, that opportunity may be given for distinction, and the brave man and the coward may receive their meed of honour or disgrace. If occasionally a man is killed, there is no great harm done—there are others as good as he is who will replace him; and the state can better afford to lose a few of her citizens than to lose the only means of testing them.
The legislator might think to himself: What is my goal in training my citizens? Aren't they striving for excellence in the biggest fights? Absolutely, that's the answer. And if they were boxers or wrestlers, would they consider stepping into the ring without many days of practice? Wouldn't they try to replicate all the conditions of the match? And if they had no one to spar with, wouldn't they practice on a lifeless dummy, ignoring the laughter of onlookers? Should our soldiers go into battle for their lives, loved ones, and property unprepared, just because training exercises seem silly? Won't the legislator insist that his citizens practice warfare daily, starting with smaller drills without weapons, while those preparing for larger battles carry arms, take their positions, and set ambushes? And let their fights have real risks, so there’s a chance for distinction, and both the brave and the cowardly can earn their share of honor or shame. If sometimes someone dies, it's not the end of the world—others just as capable will fill the gap; the state can afford to lose a few citizens better than it can afford to lose the only way to evaluate them.
'We agree, Stranger, that such warlike exercises are necessary.' But why are they so rarely practised? Or rather, do we not all know the reasons? One of them (1) is the inordinate love of wealth. This absorbs the soul of a man, and leaves him no time for any other pursuit. Knowledge is valued by him only as it tends to the attainment of wealth. All is lost in the desire of heaping up gold and silver; anybody is ready to do anything, right or wrong, for the sake of eating and drinking, and the indulgence of his animal passions. 'Most true.' This is one of the causes which prevents a man being a good soldier, or anything else which is good; it converts the temperate and orderly into shopkeepers or servants, and the brave into burglars or pirates. Many of these latter are men of ability, and are greatly to be pitied, because their souls are hungering and thirsting all their lives long. The bad forms of government (2) are another reason—democracy, oligarchy, tyranny, which, as I was saying, are not states, but states of discord, in which the rulers are afraid of their subjects, and therefore do not like them to become rich, or noble, or valiant. Now our state will escape both these causes of evil; the society is perfectly free, and has plenty of leisure, and is not allowed by the laws to be absorbed in the pursuit of wealth; hence we have an excellent field for a perfect education, and for the introduction of martial pastimes. Let us proceed to describe the character of these pastimes. All gymnastic exercises in our state must have a military character; no other will be allowed. Activity and quickness are most useful in war; and yet these qualities do not attain their greatest efficiency unless the competitors are armed. The runner should enter the lists in armour, and in the races which our heralds proclaim, no prize is to be given except to armed warriors. Let there be six courses—first, the stadium; secondly, the diaulos or double course; thirdly, the horse course; fourthly, the long course; fifthly, races (1) between heavy-armed soldiers who shall pass over sixty stadia and finish at a temple of Ares, and (2) between still more heavily-armed competitors who run over smoother ground; sixthly, a race for archers, who shall run over hill and dale a distance of a hundred stadia, and their goal shall be a temple of Apollo and Artemis. There shall be three contests of each kind—one for boys, another for youths, a third for men; the course for the boys we will fix at half, and that for the youths at two-thirds of the entire length. Women shall join in the races: young girls who are not grown up shall run naked; but after thirteen they shall be suitably dressed; from thirteen to eighteen they shall be obliged to share in these contests, and from eighteen to twenty they may if they please and if they are unmarried. As to trials of strength, single combats in armour, or battles between two and two, or of any number up to ten, shall take the place of wrestling and the heavy exercises. And there must be umpires, as there are now in wrestling, to determine what is a fair hit and who is conqueror. Instead of the pancratium, let there be contests in which the combatants carry bows and wear light shields and hurl javelins and throw stones. The next provision of the law will relate to horses, which, as we are in Crete, need be rarely used by us, and chariots never; our horse-racing prizes will only be given to single horses, whether colts, half-grown, or full-grown. Their riders are to wear armour, and there shall be a competition between mounted archers. Women, if they have a mind, may join in the exercises of men.
'We agree, Stranger, that such military training is necessary.' But why are they so rarely practiced? Or rather, don’t we all know the reasons? One of them (1) is the excessive love of wealth. This consumes a person's spirit and leaves no time for other pursuits. Knowledge is valued by him only as it helps him gain wealth. Everything is sacrificed in the pursuit of accumulating gold and silver; anyone is willing to do anything, right or wrong, just to satisfy their basic needs and indulge their desires. 'That's absolutely true.' This is one of the reasons that prevents a person from becoming a good soldier or anything else worthwhile; it turns the disciplined and orderly into shopkeepers or servants, and the brave into thieves or pirates. Many of these latter individuals are capable and should be pitied, as their souls are yearning for purpose their entire lives. The poor forms of government (2)—democracy, oligarchy, tyranny—are another reason. These are not true states but states of conflict, where the rulers fear their subjects and, therefore, don’t want them to become wealthy, noble, or courageous. Now our society will avoid both of these sources of corruption; it is completely free, has plenty of leisure time, and is not allowed by the laws to be consumed by the pursuit of wealth; thus, we have an ideal environment for quality education and the introduction of martial activities. Let’s now describe these activities. All physical exercises in our society must have a military aspect; no others will be accepted. Agility and speed are vital in war; however, these traits cannot reach their full potential unless the participants are armed. The runner should compete in armor, and in the races announced by our heralds, prizes will only be awarded to armed warriors. There will be six events—first, the stadium; second, the diaulos or double course; third, the horse course; fourth, the long course; fifth, races (1) for heavily-armed soldiers covering sixty stadia and finishing at a temple of Ares, and (2) for even more heavily-armed competitors running on flatter ground; sixth, a race for archers, who will traverse hills and valleys over a distance of a hundred stadia, with their finish line at the temple of Apollo and Artemis. There will be three competitions of each type—one for boys, another for youths, and a third for men; the distance for the boys will be set at half, while the youths will race two-thirds of the total length. Women will also participate in the races: young girls who are still growing shall run naked; but after turning thirteen, they will wear appropriate attire; from thirteen to eighteen, they will be required to participate, and from eighteen to twenty, they can choose to join if they are unmarried. As for strength trials, single combats in armor, or battles between pairs or groups of up to ten, will replace wrestling and intense exercises. There must be judges, as there currently are in wrestling, to determine what constitutes a valid strike and who is the winner. Instead of the pancratium, there will be contests where competitors use bows and wear light shields, throwing javelins and stones. The next regulation regarding horses, which, since we are in Crete, won’t be frequently needed by us, and chariots will never be used; our horse racing prizes will be awarded only to individual horses, whether they are colts, young, or full-grown. Their riders must wear armor, and there will be competitions for mounted archers. Women, if they choose, may participate in the men’s exercises.
But enough of gymnastics, and nearly enough of music. All musical contests will take place at festivals, whether every third or every fifth year, which are to be fixed by the guardians of the law, the judges of the games, and the director of education, who for this purpose shall become legislators and arrange times and conditions. The principles on which such contests are to be ordered have been often repeated by the first legislator; no more need be said of them, nor are the details of them important. But there is another subject of the highest importance, which, if possible, should be determined by the laws, not of man, but of God; or, if a direct revelation is impossible, there is need of some bold man who, alone against the world, will speak plainly of the corruption of human nature, and go to war with the passions of mankind. 'We do not understand you.' I will try to make my meaning plainer. In speaking of education, I seemed to see young men and maidens in friendly intercourse with one another; and there arose in my mind a natural fear about a state, in which the young of either sex are well nurtured, and have little to do, and occupy themselves chiefly with festivals and dances. How can they be saved from those passions which reason forbids them to indulge, and which are the ruin of so many? The prohibition of wealth, and the influence of education, and the all-seeing eye of the ruler, will alike help to promote temperance; but they will not wholly extirpate the unnatural loves which have been the destruction of states; and against this evil what remedy can be devised? Lacedaemon and Crete give no assistance here; on the subject of love, as I may whisper in your ear, they are against us. Suppose a person were to urge that you ought to restore the natural use which existed before the days of Laius; he would be quite right, but he would not be supported by public opinion in either of your states. Or try the matter by the test which we apply to all laws,—who will say that the permission of such things tends to virtue? Will he who is seduced learn the habit of courage; or will the seducer acquire temperance? And will any legislator be found to make such actions legal?
But enough about gymnastics, and almost enough about music. All musical competitions will happen at festivals, held every three or five years, as determined by the guardians of the law, the judges of the games, and the education director, who will act as legislators and set the dates and rules. The principles for these contests have been often repeated by the first legislator; there's no need to go over them again, and the specifics aren’t really important. However, there’s another crucial issue that should, if possible, be governed by divine laws, rather than human ones; or, if direct revelation isn’t possible, we need a brave individual who will boldly confront the corruption of human nature and challenge mankind’s passions. ‘We don’t understand you.’ Let me clarify my point. When I talk about education, I envision young men and women engaging with each other in a friendly manner; I can't help but worry about a society where young people are well-raised, have little to do, and mainly focus on festivals and dances. How can they avoid the passions that reason tells them to resist, which bring ruin to so many? Restricting wealth, the impact of education, and the watchful eye of the ruler will all help foster moderation, but they won’t completely eliminate the unnatural desires that have destroyed states; so what solutions can be found for this issue? Lacedaemon and Crete offer no support here; when it comes to love, as I'll quietly mention, they are on the opposite side. If someone were to argue for restoring the natural practices that existed before Laius, they would be correct, but they wouldn't have public backing in either of your states. Or let’s apply the standard we use for all laws—who would claim that allowing such behavior promotes virtue? Will the one being seduced develop courage, or will the seducer gain moderation? And will any legislator be found willing to make such actions legal?
But to judge of this matter truly, we must understand the nature of love and friendship, which may take very different forms. For we speak of friendship, first, when there is some similarity or equality of virtue; secondly, when there is some want; and either of these, when in excess, is termed love. The first kind is gentle and sociable; the second is fierce and unmanageable; and there is also a third kind, which is akin to both, and is under the dominion of opposite principles. The one is of the body, and has no regard for the character of the beloved; but he who is under the influence of the other disregards the body, and is a looker rather than a lover, and desires only with his soul to be knit to the soul of his friend; while the intermediate sort is both of the body and of the soul. Here are three kinds of love: ought the legislator to prohibit all of them equally, or to allow the virtuous love to remain? 'The latter, clearly.' I expected to gain your approval; but I will reserve the task of convincing our friend Cleinias for another occasion. 'Very good.' To make right laws on this subject is in one point of view easy, and in another most difficult; for we know that in some cases most men abstain willingly from intercourse with the fair. The unwritten law which prohibits members of the same family from such intercourse is strictly obeyed, and no thought of anything else ever enters into the minds of men in general. A little word puts out the fire of their lusts. 'What is it?' The declaration that such things are hateful to the Gods, and most abominable and unholy. The reason is that everywhere, in jest and earnest alike, this is the doctrine which is repeated to all from their earliest youth. They see on the stage that an Oedipus or a Thyestes or a Macareus, when undeceived, are ready to kill themselves. There is an undoubted power in public opinion when no breath is heard adverse to the law; and the legislator who would enslave these enslaving passions must consecrate such a public opinion all through the city. 'Good: but how can you create it?' A fair objection; but I promised to try and find some means of restraining loves to their natural objects. A law which would extirpate unnatural love as effectually as incest is at present extirpated, would be the source of innumerable blessings, because it would be in accordance with nature, and would get rid of excess in eating and drinking and of adulteries and frenzies, making men love their wives, and having other excellent effects. I can imagine that some lusty youth overhears what we are saying, and roars out in abusive terms that we are legislating for impossibilities. And so a person might have said of the syssitia, or common meals; but this is refuted by facts, although even now they are not extended to women. 'True.' There is no impossibility or super-humanity in my proposed law, as I shall endeavour to prove. 'Do so.' Will not a man find abstinence more easy when his body is sound than when he is in ill-condition? 'Yes.' Have we not heard of Iccus of Tarentum and other wrestlers who abstained wholly for a time? Yet they were infinitely worse educated than our citizens, and far more lusty in their bodies. And shall they have abstained for the sake of an athletic contest, and our citizens be incapable of a similar endurance for the sake of a much nobler victory,—the victory over pleasure, which is true happiness? Will not the fear of impiety enable them to conquer that which many who were inferior to them have conquered? 'I dare say.' And therefore the law must plainly declare that our citizens should not fall below the other animals, who live all together in flocks, and yet remain pure and chaste until the time of procreation comes, when they pair, and are ever after faithful to their compact. But if the corruption of public opinion is too great to allow our first law to be carried out, then our guardians of the law must turn legislators, and try their hand at a second law. They must minimize the appetites, diverting the vigour of youth into other channels, allowing the practice of love in secret, but making detection shameful. Three higher principles may be brought to bear on all these corrupt natures. 'What are they?' Religion, honour, and the love of the higher qualities of the soul. Perhaps this is a dream only, yet it is the best of dreams; and if not the whole, still, by the grace of God, a part of what we desire may be realized. Either men may learn to abstain wholly from any loves, natural or unnatural, except of their wedded wives; or, at least, they may give up unnatural loves; or, if detected, they shall be punished with loss of citizenship, as aliens from the state in their morals. 'I entirely agree with you,' said Megillus, 'but Cleinias must speak for himself.' 'I will give my opinion by-and-by.'
But to truly understand this issue, we need to grasp the nature of love and friendship, which can take many forms. We talk about friendship first when there’s some similarity or equal virtue; second, when there’s some need; and if either of these is in excess, it’s called love. The first type is gentle and sociable; the second is intense and uncontrollable; and there’s also a third type, which is similar to both, governed by opposing principles. One type is physical and doesn’t care about the character of the beloved; the person under the influence of the other disregards the body, focusing more on connecting their soul with the soul of their friend; while the intermediate type involves both body and soul. So, there are three types of love: should the lawmaker ban all of them equally, or should they allow virtuous love to continue? ‘Clearly the latter.’ I hoped to get your agreement on that, but I will save convincing our friend Cleinias for another time. ‘That’s fine.’ Creating appropriate laws on this matter is straightforward in one way and extremely challenging in another; because we know there are many cases where most people willingly avoid relationship with those they find attractive. The unwritten law that forbids family members from such relationships is strictly followed, and generally, people don’t even consider anything else. A simple statement can extinguish their desires. ‘What is it?’ The claim that such things are hated by the Gods and are utterly immoral and sacrilegious. The reason is that this belief is taught to everyone from their earliest years, whether in jest or earnest. They see on stage that characters like Oedipus or Thyestes or Macareus, once they realize the truth, are ready to end their own lives. Public opinion has a powerful effect when no opposing views are expressed; a lawmaker who seeks to control these overpowering urges must establish such a public opinion throughout the city. ‘Okay, but how can you create it?’ A valid point; nonetheless, I promised to search for ways to channel love towards its natural objects. A law that would eradicate unnatural love as effectively as incest is currently eradicated would bring countless benefits, as it would align with nature and reduce excess in eating and drinking, and prevent adulteries and madness, promoting genuine love between husbands and wives, among other positive outcomes. I can picture some enthusiastic young man overhearing us and shouting that we’re proposing the impossible. Someone might have argued similarly about the syssitia, or communal meals; but that’s proven wrong by reality, even though they currently don’t extend to women. ‘True.’ There’s nothing impossible or extraordinary about my proposed law, as I will try to demonstrate. ‘Go ahead.’ Isn’t it easier for someone to abstain when their body is healthy rather than when they’re unwell? ‘Yes.’ Haven’t we heard about Iccus of Tarentum and other wrestlers who completely abstained for a period? Yet they were far less educated than our citizens and much more physically driven. Would they manage to abstain for the sake of an athletic competition while our citizens can't endure for the sake of a much nobler victory—the victory over pleasure, which is true happiness? Can’t the fear of disrespecting the Gods empower them to overcome what many lesser individuals have conquered? ‘I suppose so.’ Therefore, the law must clearly state that our citizens should not fall behind other animals, who live in groups yet remain pure and chaste until it’s time to mate, after which they are always faithful to their commitments. But if public opinion is too corrupted to implement our primary law, then our law guardians must become lawmakers and draft a second law. They need to minimize desires, directing youthful energy elsewhere, allowing love to be practiced in secret but making detection shameful. Three higher principles can be applied to all these corrupt natures. ‘What are they?’ Religion, honor, and the appreciation of the nobler qualities of the soul. Perhaps this is only a dream, yet it’s the best kind of dream; and if not entirely, by God’s grace, a part of what we wish for may come true. Either people may learn to completely abstain from any loves, natural or unnatural, except for their wives; or at least, they might give up unnatural loves; or, if caught, they will be punished by losing their citizenship, treated as outsiders in moral standing. ‘I completely agree,’ said Megillus, ‘but Cleinias must speak for himself.’ ‘I will share my opinion soon.’
We were speaking of the syssitia, which will be a natural institution in a Cretan colony. Whether they shall be established after the model of Crete or Lacedaemon, or shall be different from either, is an unimportant question which may be determined without difficulty. We may, therefore, proceed to speak of the mode of life among our citizens, which will be far less complex than in other cities; a state which is inland and not maritime requires only half the number of laws. There is no trouble about trade and commerce, and a thousand other things. The legislator has only to regulate the affairs of husbandmen and shepherds, which will be easily arranged, now that the principal questions, such as marriage, education, and government, have been settled.
We were talking about the syssitia, which will be a natural part of a Cretan colony. Whether they should be set up like those in Crete or Lacedaemon, or if they should be different, is a minor issue that can be easily resolved. Therefore, we can move on to discuss how our citizens will live, which will be much simpler than in other cities; a state that is landlocked and not coastal only needs half the number of laws. There are no issues with trade and commerce, along with a thousand other things. The lawmaker just needs to manage the needs of farmers and shepherds, which will be straightforward, since the key issues, like marriage, education, and government, have already been addressed.
Let us begin with husbandry: First, let there be a law of Zeus against removing a neighbour's landmark, whether he be a citizen or stranger. For this is 'to move the immoveable'; and Zeus, the God of kindred, witnesses to the wrongs of citizens, and Zeus, the God of strangers, to the wrongs of strangers. The offence of removing a boundary shall receive two punishments—the first will be inflicted by the God himself; the second by the judges. In the next place, the differences between neighbours about encroachments must be guarded against. He who encroaches shall pay twofold the amount of the injury; of all such matters the wardens of the country shall be the judges, in lesser cases the officers, and in greater the whole number of them belonging to any one division. Any injury done by cattle, the decoying of bees, the careless firing of woods, the planting unduly near a neighbour's ground, shall all be visited with proper damages. Such details have been determined by previous legislators, and need not now be mixed up with greater matters. Husbandmen have had of old excellent rules about streams and waters; and we need not 'divert their course.' Anybody may take water from a common stream, if he does not thereby cut off a private spring; he may lead the water in any direction, except through a house or temple, but he must do no harm beyond the channel. If land is without water the occupier shall dig down to the clay, and if at this depth he find no water, he shall have a right of getting water from his neighbours for his household; and if their supply is limited, he shall receive from them a measure of water fixed by the wardens of the country. If there be heavy rains, the dweller on the higher ground must not recklessly suffer the water to flow down upon a neighbour beneath him, nor must he who lives upon lower ground or dwells in an adjoining house refuse an outlet. If the two parties cannot agree, they shall go before the wardens of the city or country, and if a man refuse to abide by their decision, he shall pay double the damage which he has caused.
Let's start with regulations on land: First, there should be a law from Zeus against moving a neighbor's boundary marker, whether the person is a local or a stranger. This act is like "moving the immovable"; and Zeus, the God of kin, witnesses the injustices done to locals, while Zeus, the God of strangers, witnesses the injustices done to outsiders. Anyone who removes a boundary marker will face two penalties—the first imposed by the God himself; the second by the judges. Next, we should address disputes between neighbors about encroachments. Anyone who encroaches must pay double the damage caused; the wardens of the area will serve as judges for these matters, with officers handling minor cases and a larger panel for more significant ones. Any harm caused by livestock, swarming bees, careless burning of woodlands, or planting too close to a neighbor's land will be subject to appropriate compensation. These rules have been established by earlier lawmakers and don’t need to be mixed with larger issues. Farmers have long had good rules regarding streams and water; there's no need to "redirect their flow." Anyone can take water from a shared stream, as long as they don’t cut off a private spring; they can lead the water in any direction, except through a house or temple, but must not cause harm outside the channel. If land is dry, the person using it can dig down to the clay, and if they find no water at that depth, they have the right to access water from their neighbors for their home; if neighbors have limited supply, they must provide a measured amount of water as determined by the wardens of the area. In the case of heavy rains, the person on higher ground must not irresponsibly let water flow onto a neighbor below, nor can someone in a lower area or adjacent house deny an outlet. If they can’t reach an agreement, they should present their case to the wardens of the city or area, and if someone refuses to comply with their ruling, they will owe double the damages caused.
In autumn God gives us two boons—one the joy of Dionysus not to be laid up—the other to be laid up. About the fruits of autumn let the law be as follows: He who gathers the storing fruits of autumn, whether grapes or figs, before the time of the vintage, which is the rising of Arcturus, shall pay fifty drachmas as a fine to Dionysus, if he gathers on his own ground; if on his neighbour's ground, a mina, and two-thirds of a mina if on that of any one else. The grapes or figs not used for storing a man may gather when he pleases on his own ground, but on that of others he must pay the penalty of removing what he has not laid down. If he be a slave who has gathered, he shall receive a stroke for every grape or fig. A metic must purchase the choice fruit; but a stranger may pluck for himself and his attendant. This right of hospitality, however, does not extend to storing grapes. A slave who eats of the storing grapes or figs shall be beaten, and the freeman be dismissed with a warning. Pears, apples, pomegranates, may be taken secretly, but he who is detected in the act of taking them shall be lightly beaten off, if he be not more than thirty years of age. The stranger and the elder may partake of them, but not carry any away; the latter, if he does not obey the law, shall fail in the competition of virtue, if anybody brings up his offence against him.
In autumn, God gives us two gifts—one is the joy of celebration, and the other is preparation for storage. Here's the rule regarding autumn fruits: Anyone who picks storing fruits like grapes or figs before the vintage season, marked by the rising of Arcturus, must pay a fine of fifty drachmas to Dionysus if they harvested them on their own land; on a neighbor's land, the fine is a mina, and if from someone else's land, it’s two-thirds of a mina. A person can gather non-storing grapes or figs whenever they want from their own land, but if they pick them from others' land, they will face a penalty for taking what they haven't stored. If a slave gathers them, they will receive a punishment for each grape or fig. A metic has to buy the fine fruits, but a foreigner can pick for themselves and their companion. However, this hospitality does not apply to storing grapes. A slave who eats the storing grapes or figs will be punished with beating, while a free person will just receive a warning. Pears, apples, and pomegranates can be taken discreetly, but anyone caught doing so will be lightly punished, as long as they're under thirty. A foreigner and an older person can enjoy them but can't take any away; if the older person breaks this rule, they will miss out on the chance to be recognized for their virtue if someone points out their wrongdoing.
Water is also in need of protection, being the greatest element of nutrition, and, unlike the other elements—soil, air, and sun—which conspire in the growth of plants, easily polluted. And therefore he who spoils another's water, whether in springs or reservoirs, either by trenching, or theft, or by means of poisonous substances, shall pay the damage and purify the stream. At the getting-in of the harvest everybody shall have a right of way over his neighbour's ground, provided he is careful to do no damage beyond the trespass, or if he himself will gain three times as much as his neighbour loses. Of all this the magistrates are to take cognizance, and they are to assess the damage where the injury does not exceed three minae; cases of greater damage can be tried only in the public courts. A charge against a magistrate is to be referred to the public courts, and any one who is found guilty of deciding corruptly shall pay twofold to the aggrieved person. Matters of detail relating to punishments and modes of procedure, and summonses, and witnesses to summonses, do not require the mature wisdom of the aged legislator; the younger generation may determine them according to their experience; but when once determined, they shall remain unaltered.
Water also needs protection because it’s the most vital source of nutrition and, unlike other elements—soil, air, and sunlight—that help plants grow, it’s easily polluted. Therefore, anyone who damages someone else's water, whether it's from springs or reservoirs, through digging, stealing, or using harmful substances, must pay for the damage and clean the water. During harvest time, everyone has the right to pass through their neighbor's land as long as they don’t cause any damage beyond their trespass or if they gain three times what their neighbor loses. The magistrates are responsible for overseeing this, and they will assess damages that do not exceed three minae; cases with greater damages can only be handled in public courts. Any complaints against a magistrate should go to the public courts, and anyone found guilty of corruption must pay double to the affected person. Details about punishments and procedures, as well as summonses and witnesses, don’t require the seasoned wisdom of older lawmakers; the younger generation can decide them based on their experiences, but once they are decided, they should remain unchanged.
The following are to be the regulations respecting handicrafts:—No citizen, or servant of a citizen, is to practise them. For the citizen has already an art and mystery, which is the care of the state; and no man can practise two arts, or practise one and superintend another. No smith should be a carpenter, and no carpenter, having many slaves who are smiths, should look after them himself; but let each man practise one art which shall be his means of livelihood. The wardens of the city should see to this, punishing the citizen who offends with temporary deprival of his rights—the foreigner shall be imprisoned, fined, exiled. Any disputes about contracts shall be determined by the wardens of the city up to fifty drachmae—above that sum by the public courts. No customs are to be exacted either on imports or exports. Nothing unnecessary is to be imported from abroad, whether for the service of the Gods or for the use of man—neither purple, nor other dyes, nor frankincense,—and nothing needed in the country is to be exported. These things are to be decided on by the twelve guardians of the law who are next in seniority to the five elders. Arms and the materials of war are to be imported and exported only with the consent of the generals, and then only by the state. There is to be no retail trade either in these or any other articles. For the distribution of the produce of the country, the Cretan laws afford a rule which may be usefully followed. All shall be required to distribute corn, grain, animals, and other valuable produce, into twelve portions. Each of these shall be subdivided into three parts—one for freemen, another for servants, and the third shall be sold for the supply of artisans, strangers, and metics. These portions must be equal whether the produce be much or little; and the master of a household may distribute the two portions among his family and his slaves as he pleases—the remainder is to be measured out to the animals.
Here are the rules regarding handicrafts: No citizen, or anyone working for a citizen, is allowed to practice them. Citizens already have a role that involves taking care of the state, and no one can master two trades or manage one while practicing another. A blacksmith shouldn't also be a carpenter, and a carpenter shouldn't oversee their many slaves who are blacksmiths. Each person should focus on one trade that will be their source of income. The city wardens should enforce this by punishing citizens who break the rules with a temporary loss of rights; foreigners will face imprisonment, fines, or exile. Any disputes over contracts will be handled by the city wardens up to fifty drachmas; for amounts above that, the public courts will take over. No taxes can be charged on imports or exports. Nothing unneeded should be brought in from abroad, whether for worship or general use — no purple dye, other dyes, or frankincense — and nothing essential to the country should be sent out. Decisions about these matters will be made by the twelve guardians of the law who are senior to the five elders. Weapons and military supplies can only be imported or exported with the generals' permission, and only by the state. There will be no retail trade in these or any other goods. For distributing the country’s produce, the Cretan laws provide a useful guideline. Everyone must divide corn, grain, animals, and other valuable products into twelve parts. Each part will be further divided into three sections — one for free citizens, one for servants, and the third for sale to artisans, foreigners, and resident aliens. These portions must be equal, regardless of whether the produce is plentiful or scarce; the head of the household can distribute the two portions among their family and slaves as they see fit, and the leftover will be given to the animals.
Next as to the houses in the country—there shall be twelve villages, one in the centre of each of the twelve portions; and in every village there shall be temples and an agora—also shrines for heroes or for any old Magnesian deities who linger about the place. In every division there shall be temples of Hestia, Zeus, and Athene, as well as of the local deity, surrounded by buildings on eminences, which will be the guard-houses of the rural police. The dwellings of the artisans will be thus arranged:—The artisans shall be formed into thirteen guilds, one of which will be divided into twelve parts and settled in the city; of the rest there shall be one in each division of the country. And the magistrates will fix them on the spots where they will cause the least inconvenience and be most serviceable in supplying the wants of the husbandmen.
Next, regarding the houses in the countryside—there will be twelve villages, one in the center of each of the twelve regions; and in every village, there will be temples and a marketplace—also shrines for heroes or any ancient Magnesian deities that may still be around. In each area, there will be temples dedicated to Hestia, Zeus, and Athena, along with the local deity, surrounded by buildings on higher ground that will serve as the rural police stations. The living arrangements for the artisans will be as follows: The artisans will be organized into thirteen guilds, one of which will be split into twelve sections and based in the city; the others will be established in each rural area. The officials will select these locations to minimize disruption and ensure they are most helpful in meeting the needs of the farmers.
The care of the agora will fall to the wardens of the agora. Their first duty will be the regulation of the temples which surround the market-place; and their second to see that the markets are orderly and that fair dealing is observed. They will also take care that the sales which the citizens are required to make to strangers are duly executed. The law shall be, that on the first day of each month the auctioneers to whom the sale is entrusted shall offer grain; and at this sale a twelfth part of the whole shall be exposed, and the foreigner shall supply his wants for a month. On the tenth, there shall be a sale of liquids, and on the twenty-third of animals, skins, woven or woollen stuffs, and other things which husbandmen have to sell and foreigners want to buy. None of these commodities, any more than barley or flour, or any other food, may be retailed by a citizen to a citizen; but foreigners may sell them to one another in the foreigners' market. There must also be butchers who will sell parts of animals to foreigners and craftsmen, and their servants; and foreigners may buy firewood wholesale of the commissioners of woods, and may sell retail to foreigners. All other goods must be sold in the market, at some place indicated by the magistrates, and shall be paid for on the spot. He who gives credit, and is cheated, will have no redress. In buying or selling, any excess or diminution of what the law allows shall be registered. The same rule is to be observed about the property of metics. Anybody who practises a handicraft may come and remain twenty years from the day on which he is enrolled; at the expiration of this time he shall take what he has and depart. The only condition which is to be imposed upon him as the tax of his sojourn is good conduct; and he is not to pay any tax for being allowed to buy or sell. But if he wants to extend the time of his sojourn, and has done any service to the state, and he can persuade the council and assembly to grant his request, he may remain. The children of metics may also be metics; and the period of twenty years, during which they are permitted to sojourn, is to count, in their case, from their fifteenth year.
The care of the marketplace will be the responsibility of the marketplace wardens. Their first job will be to manage the temples surrounding the marketplace, and their second job will be to ensure the markets are orderly and fair transactions occur. They will also ensure that the sales citizens are required to make to non-citizens are carried out properly. The law states that on the first day of each month, the auctioneers in charge of the sale will offer grain; during this sale, one-twelfth of the total amount will be available, and non-citizens will be able to meet their needs for a month. On the tenth, there will be a sale of liquids, and on the twenty-third, there will be sales of animals, skins, woven or woollen goods, and other products that local farmers have to sell and non-citizens want to buy. None of these items, including barley, flour, or any other food, may be sold retail by one citizen to another; however, non-citizens can sell to each other in the foreigner’s market. There must also be butchers who will sell parts of animals to non-citizens and skilled workers, and their employees can buy firewood in bulk from the wood officials, then resell it to non-citizens. All other goods must be sold in the market at a designated place indicated by the magistrates, and must be paid for immediately. Anyone who gives credit and gets cheated will have no recourse. When buying or selling, any excess or shortage beyond what the law allows must be recorded. The same rules apply to the property of resident foreigners. Anyone who practices a trade can come and stay for twenty years from the date they are registered; after that period, they must take what they have and leave. The only requirement for their stay is good behavior; they do not have to pay any tax to buy or sell. However, if they want to extend their stay, have contributed to the state, and can convince the council and assembly to approve their request, they may remain. The children of resident foreigners can also be considered resident foreigners; for them, the twenty-year stay starts from their fifteenth year.
No mention occurs in the Laws of the doctrine of Ideas. The will of God, the authority of the legislator, and the dignity of the soul, have taken their place in the mind of Plato. If we ask what is that truth or principle which, towards the end of his life, seems to have absorbed him most, like the idea of good in the Republic, or of beauty in the Symposium, or of the unity of virtue in the Protagoras, we should answer—The priority of the soul to the body: his later system mainly hangs upon this. In the Laws, as in the Sophist and Statesman, we pass out of the region of metaphysical or transcendental ideas into that of psychology.
No mention is made in the Laws of the concept of Ideas. The will of God, the authority of the legislator, and the dignity of the soul have taken priority in Plato's thoughts. If we consider what truth or principle seems to have consumed him most in his later years, similar to the idea of good in the Republic, or beauty in the Symposium, or the unity of virtue in the Protagoras, we would say—The priority of the soul over the body: his later system largely revolves around this. In the Laws, as in the Sophist and Statesman, we transition from the realm of metaphysical or transcendental ideas into the field of psychology.
The opening of the fifth book, though abrupt and unconnected in style, is one of the most elevated passages in Plato. The religious feeling which he seeks to diffuse over the commonest actions of life, the blessedness of living in the truth, the great mistake of a man living for himself, the pity as well as anger which should be felt at evil, the kindness due to the suppliant and the stranger, have the temper of Christian philosophy. The remark that elder men, if they want to educate others, should begin by educating themselves; the necessity of creating a spirit of obedience in the citizens; the desirableness of limiting property; the importance of parochial districts, each to be placed under the protection of some God or demigod, have almost the tone of a modern writer. In many of his views of politics, Plato seems to us, like some politicians of our own time, to be half socialist, half conservative.
The start of the fifth book, while sudden and disconnected in style, is one of the most profound passages in Plato. The sense of spirituality he tries to spread over everyday actions, the joy of living in honesty, the significant error of living solely for oneself, the compassion and frustration that should arise towards wrongdoing, and the kindness owed to those in need and strangers all reflect the essence of Christian philosophy. The idea that older individuals, if they wish to teach others, should first work on their own education; the need to foster a spirit of obedience among citizens; the value of limiting wealth; and the significance of local communities, each dedicated to the protection of a deity or demigod, all echo the voice of a contemporary author. In many of his political views, Plato seems to us, much like some modern politicians, to embody a mix of socialist and conservative ideas.
In the Laws, we remark a change in the place assigned by him to pleasure and pain. There are two ways in which even the ideal systems of morals may regard them: either like the Stoics, and other ascetics, we may say that pleasure must be eradicated; or if this seems unreal to us, we may affirm that virtue is the true pleasure; and then, as Aristotle says, 'to be brought up to take pleasure in what we ought, exercises a great and paramount influence on human life' (Arist. Eth. Nic.). Or as Plato says in the Laws, 'A man will recognize the noblest life as having the greatest pleasure and the least pain, if he have a true taste.' If we admit that pleasures differ in kind, the opposition between these two modes of speaking is rather verbal than real; and in the greater part of the writings of Plato they alternate with each other. In the Republic, the mere suggestion that pleasure may be the chief good, is received by Socrates with a cry of abhorrence; but in the Philebus, innocent pleasures vindicate their right to a place in the scale of goods. In the Protagoras, speaking in the person of Socrates rather than in his own, Plato admits the calculation of pleasure to be the true basis of ethics, while in the Phaedo he indignantly denies that the exchange of one pleasure for another is the exchange of virtue. So wide of the mark are they who would attribute to Plato entire consistency in thoughts or words.
In the Laws, we notice a shift in how he views pleasure and pain. There are two ways even the best moral systems can look at them: like the Stoics and other ascetics, we might say that pleasure should be eliminated; or, if that feels unrealistic to us, we might claim that virtue is the true pleasure. Then, as Aristotle says, "being raised to take pleasure in what we should, has a significant and major impact on human life" (Arist. Eth. Nic.). Or as Plato states in the Laws, "a man will recognize the most noble life as the one that has the greatest pleasure and the least pain, if he has a genuine sense." If we accept that pleasures vary in type, the difference between these two views is more about wording than substance; and in most of Plato's writings, they switch back and forth. In the Republic, Socrates reacts with disgust at the mere idea that pleasure could be the highest good; but in the Philebus, innocent pleasures defend their place in the hierarchy of goods. In the Protagoras, speaking more as Socrates than himself, Plato acknowledges that evaluating pleasure is the real foundation of ethics, while in the Phaedo he angrily refutes the idea that trading one pleasure for another means exchanging virtue. Those who claim Plato's thoughts or words are completely consistent are quite mistaken.
He acknowledges that the second state is inferior to the first—in this, at any rate, he is consistent; and he still casts longing eyes upon the ideal. Several features of the first are retained in the second: the education of men and women is to be as far as possible the same; they are to have common meals, though separate, the men by themselves, the women with their children; and they are both to serve in the army; the citizens, if not actually communists, are in spirit communistic; they are to be lovers of equality; only a certain amount of wealth is permitted to them, and their burdens and also their privileges are to be proportioned to this. The constitution in the Laws is a timocracy of wealth, modified by an aristocracy of merit. Yet the political philosopher will observe that the first of these two principles is fixed and permanent, while the latter is uncertain and dependent on the opinion of the multitude. Wealth, after all, plays a great part in the Second Republic of Plato. Like other politicians, he deems that a property qualification will contribute stability to the state. The four classes are derived from the constitution of Athens, just as the form of the city, which is clustered around a citadel set on a hill, is suggested by the Acropolis at Athens. Plato, writing under Pythagorean influences, seems really to have supposed that the well-being of the city depended almost as much on the number 5040 as on justice and moderation. But he is not prevented by Pythagoreanism from observing the effects which climate and soil exercise on the characters of nations.
He recognizes that the second state is not as good as the first—he’s consistent in this regard, and he still looks longingly at the ideal. Some features of the first state carry over to the second: men and women are to be educated similarly as much as possible; they will have shared meals, though separate, with men eating alone and women with their children; and both will serve in the military. While the citizens might not be communists in name, they have a communistic spirit; they are to value equality; only a limited amount of wealth is allowed, and their burdens and privileges will be based on this. The constitution described in the Laws is a timocracy based on wealth, adjusted by an aristocracy of merit. However, the political philosopher will note that the first principle is fixed and permanent, while the second is uncertain and reliant on the public's opinion. Wealth plays a significant role in Plato's Second Republic. Like other politicians, he believes that a property requirement will add stability to the state. The four classes are modeled after the Athenian constitution, just as the city layout, which clusters around a citadel on a hill, is inspired by the Acropolis in Athens. Writing under the influence of Pythagorean thought, Plato seems to have genuinely believed that the city's well-being relied almost as much on the number 5040 as on justice and moderation. Yet, he does not let Pythagoreanism stop him from recognizing the impact that climate and soil have on the characteristics of nations.
He was doubtful in the Republic whether the ideal or communistic state could be realized, but was at the same time prepared to maintain that whether it existed or not made no difference to the philosopher, who will in any case regulate his life by it (Republic). He has now lost faith in the practicability of his scheme—he is speaking to 'men, and not to Gods or sons of Gods' (Laws). Yet he still maintains it to be the true pattern of the state, which we must approach as nearly as possible: as Aristotle says, 'After having created a more general form of state, he gradually brings it round to the other' (Pol.). He does not observe, either here or in the Republic, that in such a commonwealth there would be little room for the development of individual character. In several respects the second state is an improvement on the first, especially in being based more distinctly on the dignity of the soul. The standard of truth, justice, temperance, is as high as in the Republic;—in one respect higher, for temperance is now regarded, not as a virtue, but as the condition of all virtue. It is finally acknowledged that the virtues are all one and connected, and that if they are separated, courage is the lowest of them. The treatment of moral questions is less speculative but more human. The idea of good has disappeared; the excellences of individuals—of him who is faithful in a civil broil, of the examiner who is incorruptible, are the patterns to which the lives of the citizens are to conform. Plato is never weary of speaking of the honour of the soul, which can only be honoured truly by being improved. To make the soul as good as possible, and to prepare her for communion with the Gods in another world by communion with divine virtue in this, is the end of life. If the Republic is far superior to the Laws in form and style, and perhaps in reach of thought, the Laws leave on the mind of the modern reader much more strongly the impression of a struggle against evil, and an enthusiasm for human improvement. When Plato says that he must carry out that part of his ideal which is practicable, he does not appear to have reflected that part of an ideal cannot be detached from the whole.
He was unsure in the Republic if the ideal or communal state could actually be achieved, but he was also willing to argue that whether it existed or not didn’t really matter to the philosopher, who would still structure his life around it (Republic). He has now lost faith in the feasibility of his plan—he is addressing 'men, and not Gods or sons of Gods' (Laws). Still, he insists that it is the true model of the state that we should try to emulate as closely as possible: as Aristotle puts it, 'After having created a more general form of state, he gradually brings it round to the other' (Pol.). He does not realize, either here or in the Republic, that in such a commonwealth, there wouldn't be much space for the development of individual character. In several ways, the second state improves upon the first, especially since it is more clearly based on the dignity of the soul. The standards of truth, justice, and temperance remain as high as in the Republic; in one way, they are higher, because temperance is now seen not as a virtue itself, but as the foundation of all virtue. It is finally recognized that all virtues are interconnected, and if they are separated, courage is the lowest of them. The discussion of moral issues is less abstract but more relatable. The notion of good has vanished; the qualities of individuals—like the one who is loyal in a civil conflict or the unbribable examiner—are the models that citizens should aspire to follow. Plato consistently emphasizes the honor of the soul, which can only be truly honored by improving it. The goal of life is to make the soul as good as possible and to prepare it for communion with the Gods in another world through connection with divine virtue in this one. While the Republic is far superior to the Laws in terms of form and style, and perhaps in depth of thought, the Laws leave a much stronger impression on modern readers of a struggle against evil and a passion for human betterment. When Plato states that he must implement the part of his ideal that is achievable, it seems he has not considered that a part of an ideal cannot be separated from the whole.
The great defect of both his constitutions is the fixedness which he seeks to impress upon them. He had seen the Athenian empire, almost within the limits of his own life, wax and wane, but he never seems to have asked himself what would happen if, a century from the time at which he was writing, the Greek character should have as much changed as in the century which had preceded. He fails to perceive that the greater part of the political life of a nation is not that which is given them by their legislators, but that which they give themselves. He has never reflected that without progress there cannot be order, and that mere order can only be preserved by an unnatural and despotic repression. The possibility of a great nation or of an universal empire arising never occurred to him. He sees the enfeebled and distracted state of the Hellenic world in his own later life, and thinks that the remedy is to make the laws unchangeable. The same want of insight is apparent in his judgments about art. He would like to have the forms of sculpture and of music fixed as in Egypt. He does not consider that this would be fatal to the true principles of art, which, as Socrates had himself taught, was to give life (Xen. Mem.). We wonder how, familiar as he was with the statues of Pheidias, he could have endured the lifeless and half-monstrous works of Egyptian sculpture. The 'chants of Isis' (Laws), we might think, would have been barbarous in an Athenian ear. But although he is aware that there are some things which are not so well among 'the children of the Nile,' he is deeply struck with the stability of Egyptian institutions. Both in politics and in art Plato seems to have seen no way of bringing order out of disorder, except by taking a step backwards. Antiquity, compared with the world in which he lived, had a sacredness and authority for him: the men of a former age were supposed by him to have had a sense of reverence which was wanting among his contemporaries. He could imagine the early stages of civilization; he never thought of what the future might bring forth. His experience is confined to two or three centuries, to a few Greek states, and to an uncertain report of Egypt and the East. There are many ways in which the limitations of their knowledge affected the genius of the Greeks. In criticism they were like children, having an acute vision of things which were near to them, blind to possibilities which were in the distance.
The major flaw in both of his systems is the rigidity he tries to impose on them. He witnessed the rise and fall of the Athenian empire, nearly within his own lifetime, yet he never seems to have considered what might happen if, a century after he wrote, the Greek character changed as much as it had in the century before. He fails to recognize that most of a nation's political life isn't determined by their lawmakers, but rather what the people create for themselves. He hasn't thought about the fact that without progress, there can't be order, and that mere order can only be maintained through unnatural and oppressive control. The idea of a great nation or a universal empire never crossed his mind. He observes the weakened and disoriented state of the Hellenic world in his later years and believes the solution is to make laws unchangeable. The same lack of insight is clear in his views on art. He would prefer the forms of sculpture and music to be as fixed as they are in Egypt. He doesn't realize that this would be detrimental to the true principles of art, which, as Socrates himself taught, is about bringing things to life (Xen. Mem.). It's surprising that, given his familiarity with the statues of Phidias, he could tolerate the lifeless and often grotesque creations of Egyptian sculpture. The "chants of Isis" (Laws) would likely have sounded barbaric to an Athenian ear. Yet, while he's aware that some things are lacking among "the children of the Nile," he's deeply impressed by the stability of Egyptian institutions. In both politics and art, Plato seems to think that the only way to restore order from chaos is to take a step backward. To him, antiquity had a sacredness and authority compared to his own time; he believed that people from a previous age possessed a sense of reverence that was missing in his contemporaries. He could envision the early stages of civilization but never considered what the future might hold. His experience was limited to two or three centuries, a handful of Greek states, and uncertain accounts of Egypt and the East. There are numerous ways in which the limitations of their knowledge shaped the genius of the Greeks. In their criticism, they resembled children, having a sharp insight into what was close to them but being blind to distant possibilities.
The colony is to receive from the mother-country her original constitution, and some of the first guardians of the law. The guardians of the law are to be ministers of justice, and the president of education is to take precedence of them all. They are to keep the registers of property, to make regulations for trade, and they are to be superannuated at seventy years of age. Several questions of modern politics, such as the limitation of property, the enforcement of education, the relations of classes, are anticipated by Plato. He hopes that in his state will be found neither poverty nor riches; every man having the necessaries of life, he need not go fortune-hunting in marriage. Almost in the spirit of the Gospel he would say, 'How hardly can a rich man dwell in a perfect state.' For he cannot be a good man who is always gaining too much and spending too little (Laws; compare Arist. Eth. Nic.). Plato, though he admits wealth as a political element, would deny that material prosperity can be the foundation of a really great community. A man's soul, as he often says, is more to be esteemed than his body; and his body than external goods. He repeats the complaint which has been made in all ages, that the love of money is the corruption of states. He has a sympathy with thieves and burglars, 'many of whom are men of ability and greatly to be pitied, because their souls are hungering and thirsting all their lives long;' but he has little sympathy with shopkeepers or retailers, although he makes the reflection, which sometimes occurs to ourselves, that such occupations, if they were carried on honestly by the best men and women, would be delightful and honourable. For traders and artisans a moderate gain was, in his opinion, best. He has never, like modern writers, idealized the wealth of nations, any more than he has worked out the problems of political economy, which among the ancients had not yet grown into a science. The isolation of Greek states, their constant wars, the want of a free industrial population, and of the modern methods and instruments of 'credit,' prevented any great extension of commerce among them; and so hindered them from forming a theory of the laws which regulate the accumulation and distribution of wealth.
The colony is set to receive its original constitution from the mother country, along with some of the first law enforcers. These law enforcers will be justice ministers, with the head of education taking the lead. They will keep property records, create trade regulations, and will retire at the age of seventy. Plato anticipates several modern political issues, such as property limits, mandatory education, and class relations. He hopes that in his state there will be neither poverty nor extreme wealth; everyone will have what they need to live, so they won’t have to seek fortune through marriage. Almost echoing the Gospel, he suggests, 'It's difficult for a rich man to thrive in a perfect state.' A good person can't be someone who is always accumulating more and spending less. Although Plato acknowledges wealth as a political factor, he rejects the idea that material prosperity can be the foundation of a truly great society. He often asserts that a person's soul is more valuable than their body, and their body is worth more than external possessions. He echoes a complaint heard throughout history, that the love of money corrupts societies. He feels some sympathy for thieves and burglars, seeing many as capable individuals worthy of pity because their souls are in constant need. However, he has little sympathy for shopkeepers or retailers, even though he reflects, as we might, that such jobs could be enjoyable and respectable if carried out honestly by the best people. For traders and artisans, he believed a moderate profit was best. Unlike modern writers, he never romanticized national wealth, nor did he tackle political economy, which had not yet evolved into a science among the ancients. The isolation of Greek states, their ongoing conflicts, the lack of a free industrial workforce, and the absence of modern methods and tools of credit all limited their trade and prevented them from developing a theory on the laws of wealth accumulation and distribution.
The constitution of the army is aristocratic and also democratic; official appointment is combined with popular election. The two principles are carried out as follows: The guardians of the law nominate generals out of whom three are chosen by those who are or have been of the age for military service; and the generals elected have the nomination of certain of the inferior officers. But if either in the case of generals or of the inferior officers any one is ready to swear that he knows of a better man than those nominated, he may put the claims of his candidate to the vote of the whole army, or of the division of the service which he will, if elected, command. There is a general assembly, but its functions, except at elections, are hardly noticed. In the election of the Boule, Plato again attempts to mix aristocracy and democracy. This is effected, first as in the Servian constitution, by balancing wealth and numbers; for it cannot be supposed that those who possessed a higher qualification were equal in number with those who had a lower, and yet they have an equal number of representatives. In the second place, all classes are compelled to vote in the election of senators from the first and second class; but the fourth class is not compelled to elect from the third, nor the third and fourth from the fourth. Thirdly, out of the 180 persons who are thus chosen from each of the four classes, 720 in all, 360 are to be taken by lot; these form the council for the year.
The structure of the army is both aristocratic and democratic; official appointments come together with popular elections. This works in the following way: the guardians of the law nominate generals, and three of them are chosen by those who are currently or have been eligible for military service. The elected generals then nominate some of the lower-ranking officers. However, if anyone, whether a general or a lower officer, can swear they know of a better candidate than those nominated, they can present their candidate's claims to a vote from the entire army or the division they will command if elected. There is a general assembly, but its roles are hardly noted except during elections. In the election of the Boule, Plato tries to blend aristocracy and democracy again. This is done first, like in the Servian constitution, by balancing wealth and numbers; it can't be assumed that those with higher qualifications are equal in number to those with lower ones, yet they have the same number of representatives. Secondly, all classes must vote in the election of senators from the first and second classes; however, the fourth class isn't required to vote for candidates from the third, nor are the third and fourth classes required to vote for candidates from the fourth. Lastly, out of the 180 persons chosen from each of the four classes, totaling 720, 360 are selected by lot; these make up the council for the year.
These political adjustments of Plato's will be criticised by the practical statesman as being for the most part fanciful and ineffectual. He will observe, first of all, that the only real check on democracy is the division into classes. The second of the three proposals, though ingenious, and receiving some light from the apathy to politics which is often shown by the higher classes in a democracy, would have little power in times of excitement and peril, when the precaution was most needed. At such political crises, all the lower classes would vote equally with the higher. The subtraction of half the persons chosen at the first election by the chances of the lot would not raise the character of the senators, and is open to the objection of uncertainty, which necessarily attends this and similar schemes of double representative government. Nor can the voters be expected to retain the continuous political interest required for carrying out such a proposal as Plato's. Who could select 180 persons of each class, fitted to be senators? And whoever were chosen by the voter in the first instance, his wishes might be neutralized by the action of the lot. Yet the scheme of Plato is not really so extravagant as the actual constitution of Athens, in which all the senators appear to have been elected by lot (apo kuamou bouleutai), at least, after the revolution made by Cleisthenes; for the constitution of the senate which was established by Solon probably had some aristocratic features, though their precise nature is unknown to us. The ancients knew that election by lot was the most democratic of all modes of appointment, seeming to say in the objectionable sense, that 'one man is as good as another.' Plato, who is desirous of mingling different elements, makes a partial use of the lot, which he applies to candidates already elected by vote. He attempts also to devise a system of checks and balances such as he supposes to have been intended by the ancient legislators. We are disposed to say to him, as he himself says in a remarkable passage, that 'no man ever legislates, but accidents of all sorts, which legislate for us in all sorts of ways. The violence of war and the hard necessity of poverty are constantly overturning governments and changing laws.' And yet, as he adds, the true legislator is still required: he must co-operate with circumstances. Many things which are ascribed to human foresight are the result of chance. Ancient, and in a less degree modern political constitutions, are never consistent with themselves, because they are never framed on a single design, but are added to from time to time as new elements arise and gain the preponderance in the state. We often attribute to the wisdom of our ancestors great political effects which have sprung unforeseen from the accident of the situation. Power, not wisdom, is most commonly the source of political revolutions. And the result, as in the Roman Republic, of the co-existence of opposite elements in the same state is, not a balance of power or an equable progress of liberal principles, but a conflict of forces, of which one or other may happen to be in the ascendant. In Greek history, as well as in Plato's conception of it, this 'progression by antagonism' involves reaction: the aristocracy expands into democracy and returns again to tyranny.
These political changes made by Plato will be criticized by practical politicians as mostly unrealistic and ineffective. They will first point out that the only real check on democracy is the division into classes. The second of the three proposals, while clever and influenced by the indifference to politics often shown by the upper classes in a democracy, wouldn’t have much impact during times of excitement and danger when such precautions are most needed. During political crises, all lower-class citizens would vote equally with the higher classes. Removing half of those chosen in the initial election through chance wouldn’t improve the quality of the senators and raises concerns about the uncertainty that comes with these kinds of systems of double representation. Moreover, voters can't be expected to maintain the ongoing political interest needed to make Plato's proposal work. Who could realistically choose 180 people from each class to serve as senators? And whoever was selected by the voter initially could have their preferences negated by the random selection process. Still, Plato's plan isn't as unrealistic as the actual system in Athens, where it seems all senators were chosen by lot (apo kuamou bouleutai), at least after Cleisthenes’ reforms; the senate set up by Solon likely had some aristocratic elements, though we don't know exactly what those were. The ancients understood that random selection was the most democratic way to appoint officials, implying in an irritating way that 'one person is just as good as another.' Plato, aiming to blend different elements, partially uses random selection, applying it to candidates who have already been chosen by vote. He also tries to create a system of checks and balances, which he believes the ancient legislators intended. We might say to him, just as he notes in a striking passage, that 'no one truly legislates; we are governed by all sorts of accidents that legislate for us in various ways. The horrors of war and the harsh realities of poverty continually disrupt governments and alter laws.' Yet, as he adds, a true legislator is still necessary; they need to work alongside circumstances. Many outcomes credited to human foresight actually result from chance. Ancient, and to a lesser extent modern, political systems often lack internal consistency because they aren’t developed with a single design but are modified over time as new factors emerge and gain dominance in the state. We often attribute significant political changes to the wisdom of our ancestors that actually arose unexpectedly from situational accidents. Power, rather than wisdom, is typically the root of political upheaval. The outcome, as seen in the Roman Republic, of conflicting elements existing within the same state is not a balanced power structure or steady progress of liberal ideals, but rather a clash of forces, one of which may temporarily rise in strength. In Greek history, and in Plato’s view of it, this 'progress through opposition' leads to reaction: aristocracy evolves into democracy and then regresses back into tyranny.
The constitution of the Laws may be said to consist, besides the magistrates, mainly of three elements,—an administrative Council, the judiciary, and the Nocturnal Council, which is an intellectual aristocracy, composed of priests and the ten eldest guardians of the law and some younger co-opted members. To this latter chiefly are assigned the functions of legislation, but to be exercised with a sparing hand. The powers of the ordinary council are administrative rather than legislative. The whole number of 360, as in the Athenian constitution, is distributed among the months of the year according to the number of the tribes. Not more than one-twelfth is to be in office at once, so that the government would be made up of twelve administrations succeeding one another in the course of the year. They are to exercise a general superintendence, and, like the Athenian counsellors, are to preside in monthly divisions over all assemblies. Of the ecclesia over which they presided little is said, and that little relates to comparatively trifling duties. Nothing is less present to the mind of Plato than a House of Commons, carrying on year by year the work of legislation. For he supposes the laws to be already provided. As little would he approve of a body like the Roman Senate. The people and the aristocracy alike are to be represented, not by assemblies, but by officers elected for one or two years, except the guardians of the law, who are elected for twenty years.
The structure of the Laws includes, apart from the magistrates, three main components: an administrative Council, the judiciary, and the Nocturnal Council, which is an intellectual elite made up of priests, the ten oldest guardians of the law, and some younger co-opted members. The Nocturnal Council mainly handles legislation but does so sparingly. The ordinary council's powers are more administrative than legislative. The total of 360 members, similar to the Athenian system, is divided among the months of the year based on the number of tribes. No more than one-twelfth of them can be in office at the same time, meaning the government consists of twelve administrations that take turns throughout the year. They are responsible for general oversight and, like the Athenian counselors, are to lead all meetings in monthly segments. There isn’t much written about the assemblies they oversee, and what little is mentioned focuses on relatively minor tasks. Plato is far from envisioning a House of Commons that continuously handles legislation year after year; he assumes that laws are already established. He wouldn’t favor a body like the Roman Senate either. Both the people and the aristocracy are represented not by assemblies but by officials elected for one or two years, except for the guardians of the law, who serve for twenty years.
The evils of this system are obvious. If in any state, as Plato says in the Statesman, it is easier to find fifty good draught-players than fifty good rulers, the greater part of the 360 who compose the council must be unfitted to rule. The unfitness would be increased by the short period during which they held office. There would be no traditions of government among them, as in a Greek or Italian oligarchy, and no individual would be responsible for any of their acts. Everything seems to have been sacrificed to a false notion of equality, according to which all have a turn of ruling and being ruled. In the constitution of the Magnesian state Plato has not emancipated himself from the limitations of ancient politics. His government may be described as a democracy of magistrates elected by the people. He never troubles himself about the political consistency of his scheme. He does indeed say that the greater part of the good of this world arises, not from equality, but from proportion, which he calls the judgment of Zeus (compare Aristotle's Distributive Justice), but he hardly makes any attempt to carry out the principle in practice. There is no attempt to proportion representation to merit; nor is there any body in his commonwealth which represents the life either of a class or of the whole state. The manner of appointing magistrates is taken chiefly from the old democratic constitution of Athens, of which it retains some of the worst features, such as the use of the lot, while by doing away with the political character of the popular assembly the mainspring of the machine is taken out. The guardians of the law, thirty-seven in number, of whom the ten eldest reappear as a part of the Nocturnal Council at the end of the twelfth book, are to be elected by the whole military class, but they are to hold office for twenty years, and would therefore have an oligarchical rather than a democratic character. Nothing is said of the manner in which the functions of the Nocturnal Council are to be harmonized with those of the guardians of the law, or as to how the ordinary council is related to it.
The problems with this system are clear. If, as Plato points out in the Statesman, it's easier to find fifty skilled players than fifty capable rulers, then most of the 360 members of the council aren't fit to lead. Their unfitness would be worsened by the short time they spend in office. There wouldn’t be any governmental traditions among them, like in a Greek or Italian oligarchy, and no one would take responsibility for their actions. Everything seems to have been sacrificed for a misguided idea of equality, where everyone gets a turn at ruling and being ruled. In the setup of the Magnesian state, Plato hasn’t freed himself from the constraints of ancient politics. His government can be described as a democracy of magistrates elected by the people. He doesn’t seem concerned about the political consistency of his plan. He does say that most of the world’s good comes not from equality but from proportion, which he calls the judgment of Zeus (compare Aristotle's Distributive Justice), but he hardly makes any effort to put this principle into practice. There’s no attempt to match representation with merit, nor is there any body in his commonwealth that reflects either a class or the entire state. The way magistrates are appointed mainly comes from the old democratic constitution of Athens, keeping some of its worst aspects, like the use of random selection, while removing the political character from the popular assembly takes away its main driving force. The guardians of the law, totaling thirty-seven, with the ten oldest forming part of the Nocturnal Council at the end of the twelfth book, are to be elected by the entire military class, but they will serve for twenty years, giving them an oligarchical rather than a democratic nature. There’s no mention of how the roles of the Nocturnal Council will fit with those of the guardians of the law, or how the regular council relates to them.
Similar principles are applied to inferior offices. To some the appointment is made by vote, to others by lot. In the elections to the priesthood, Plato endeavours to mix or balance in a friendly manner 'demus and not demus.' The commonwealth of the Laws, like the Republic, cannot dispense with a spiritual head, which is the same in both—the oracle of Delphi. From this the laws about all divine things are to be derived. The final selection of the Interpreters, the choice of an heir for a vacant lot, the punishment for removing a deposit, are also to be determined by it. Plato is not disposed to encourage amateur attempts to revive religion in states. For, as he says in the Laws, 'To institute religious rites is the work of a great intelligence.'
Similar principles apply to lower offices. For some positions, appointments are made by vote, while for others, they are decided by random drawing. In the elections for the priesthood, Plato tries to balance 'the people and not the people' in a friendly way. The commonwealth of the Laws, like the Republic, cannot do without a spiritual leader, which in both cases is the oracle of Delphi. From this oracle, laws regarding all divine matters should be derived. The final selection of the Interpreters, the choice of an heir for a vacant lot, and the punishment for taking a deposit are also to be determined by it. Plato is not in favor of casual efforts to revive religion in states. As he states in the Laws, 'Creating religious rites requires great intelligence.'
Though the council is framed on the model of the Athenian Boule, the law courts of Plato do not equally conform to the pattern of the Athenian dicasteries. Plato thinks that the judges should speak and ask questions:—this is not possible if they are numerous; he would, therefore, have a few judges only, but good ones. He is nevertheless aware that both in public and private suits there must be a popular element. He insists that the whole people must share in the administration of justice—in public causes they are to take the first step, and the final decision is to remain with them. In private suits they are also to retain a share; 'for the citizen who has no part in the administration of justice is apt to think that he has no share in the state. For this reason there is to be a court of law in every tribe (i.e. for about every 2,000 citizens), and the judges are to be chosen by lot.' Of the courts of law he gives what he calls a superficial sketch. Nor, indeed is it easy to reconcile his various accounts of them. It is however clear that although some officials, like the guardians of the law, the wardens of the agora, city, and country have power to inflict minor penalties, the administration of justice is in the main popular. The ingenious expedient of dividing the questions of law and fact between a judge and jury, which would have enabled Plato to combine the popular element with the judicial, did not occur to him or to any other ancient political philosopher. Though desirous of limiting the number of judges, and thereby confining the office to persons specially fitted for it, he does not seem to have understood that a body of law must be formed by decisions as well as by legal enactments.
Although the council is based on the Athenian Boule, Plato’s law courts do not entirely follow the Athenian dicasteries. Plato believes that judges should speak and ask questions, which isn’t feasible if there are too many judges; therefore, he prefers having only a few judges, but they need to be good ones. He is still aware that there should be a popular element in both public and private cases. He insists that the entire population must participate in administering justice— in public cases, they should take the initiative, and the final decision should be left to them. In private cases, they should also have a role; “for a citizen who does not participate in the administration of justice tends to feel disconnected from the community.” For this reason, there should be a court of law in every tribe (meaning roughly every 2,000 citizens), and the judges should be selected by lottery. He provides what he calls a basic outline of the law courts. However, it is not easy to reconcile his various descriptions of them. It is clear that while some officials, like the guardians of the law and the wardens of the marketplace and the town, have the authority to impose minor penalties, the administration of justice is primarily popular. The clever idea of separating questions of law and fact between a judge and a jury— which would have allowed Plato to merge the popular element with the judicial— did not occur to him or any other ancient political philosopher. While he aims to limit the number of judges, thus ensuring that only particularly qualified individuals hold the position, he doesn’t seem to realize that law needs to be formed by decisions as well as by legal regulations.
He would have men in the first place seek justice from their friends and neighbours, because, as he truly remarks, they know best the questions at issue; these are called in another passage arbiters rather than judges. But if they cannot settle the matter, it is to be referred to the courts of the tribes, and a higher penalty is to be paid by the party who is unsuccessful in the suit. There is a further appeal allowed to the select judges, with a further increase of penalty. The select judges are to be appointed by the magistrates, who are to choose one from every magistracy. They are to be elected annually, and therefore probably for a year only, and are liable to be called to account before the guardians of the law. In cases of which death is the penalty, the trial takes place before a special court, which is composed of the guardians of the law and of the judges of appeal.
He would have people first seek justice from their friends and neighbors because, as he correctly points out, they know the issues best; these are referred to in another passage as arbitrators rather than judges. However, if they cannot resolve the issue, it should be taken to the tribal courts, where the losing party will have to pay a higher penalty. There is also an option to appeal to the selected judges, which comes with an additional increase in penalty. The selected judges will be appointed by the magistrates, who will choose one from each magistracy. They will be elected annually, likely serving for just one year, and are accountable to the guardians of the law. In cases where the penalty is death, a special court comprised of the guardians of the law and the appeal judges will handle the trial.
In treating of the subject in Book ix, he proposes to leave for the most part the methods of procedure to a younger generation of legislators; the procedure in capital causes he determines himself. He insists that the vote of the judges shall be given openly, and before they vote they are to hear speeches from the plaintiff and defendant. They are then to take evidence in support of what has been said, and to examine witnesses. The eldest judge is to ask his questions first, and then the second, and then the third. The interrogatories are to continue for three days, and the evidence is to be written down. Apparently he does not expect the judges to be professional lawyers, any more than he expects the members of the council to be trained statesmen.
In discussing the topic in Book ix, he plans to mostly leave the methods to a younger generation of lawmakers; he will determine the process for serious cases himself. He stresses that the judges' votes should be cast openly, and before voting, they must listen to arguments from both the plaintiff and the defendant. They then need to gather evidence supporting these arguments and question witnesses. The oldest judge will ask his questions first, followed by the second, and then the third. The questioning will last for three days, and the evidence will be recorded. Apparently, he doesn’t expect the judges to be professional lawyers, just as he doesn’t expect the council members to be seasoned politicians.
In forming marriage connexions, Plato supposes that the public interest will prevail over private inclination. There was nothing in this very shocking to the notions of Greeks, among whom the feeling of love towards the other sex was almost deprived of sentiment or romance. Married life is to be regulated solely with a view to the good of the state. The newly-married couple are not allowed to absent themselves from their respective syssitia, even during their honeymoon; they are to give their whole mind to the procreation of children; their duties to one another at a later period of life are not a matter about which the state is equally solicitous. Divorces are readily allowed for incompatibility of temper. As in the Republic, physical considerations seem almost to exclude moral and social ones. To modern feelings there is a degree of coarseness in Plato's treatment of the subject. Yet he also makes some shrewd remarks on marriage, as for example, that a man who does not marry for money will not be the humble servant of his wife. And he shows a true conception of the nature of the family, when he requires that the newly-married couple 'should leave their father and mother,' and have a separate home. He also provides against extravagance in marriage festivals, which in some states of society, for instance in the case of the Hindoos, has been a social evil of the first magnitude.
In forming marriage connections, Plato believes that the public good should take priority over personal desire. This wasn’t shocking to the Greeks, who viewed love for the opposite sex as largely devoid of sentiment or romance. Married life is meant to focus solely on the welfare of the state. Newlyweds are not allowed to skip their respective communal meals, even during their honeymoon; they are expected to fully dedicate themselves to having children. Later responsibilities to each other are not something the state is as concerned about. Divorces are easily granted due to incompatible personalities. As in the Republic, physical aspects seem to overshadow moral and social ones. To modern sensibilities, there’s a bluntness to Plato’s approach. Still, he offers some insightful comments on marriage, such as the idea that a man who doesn’t marry for money won’t be subservient to his wife. He also understands the essence of family by stating that newly married couples should “leave their father and mother” and create their own household. Additionally, he cautions against excessive spending on marriage celebrations, which can be a significant social issue in some cultures, like among the Hindus.
In treating of property, Plato takes occasion to speak of property in slaves. They are to be treated with perfect justice; but, for their own sake, to be kept at a distance. The motive is not so much humanity to the slave, of which there are hardly any traces (although Plato allows that many in the hour of peril have found a slave more attached than members of their own family), but the self-respect which the freeman and citizen owes to himself (compare Republic). If they commit crimes, they are doubly punished; if they inform against illegal practices of their masters, they are to receive a protection, which would probably be ineffectual, from the guardians of the law; in rare cases they are to be set free. Plato still breathes the spirit of the old Hellenic world, in which slavery was a necessity, because leisure must be provided for the citizen.
When discussing property, Plato takes the opportunity to address the issue of property in slaves. They should be treated with complete fairness but kept at a distance for their own good. The reason isn't so much compassion for the slave—of which there is little evidence (though Plato acknowledges that many have found their slaves more loyal in times of danger than their own family members)—but rather the self-respect that a free person and citizen owe to themselves (see Republic). If slaves commit crimes, they face double punishment; if they report their masters' illegal activities, they should receive some protection, which is likely to be ineffective, from law enforcement; and in rare instances, they may be granted freedom. Plato still embodies the values of the old Hellenic world, where slavery was seen as a necessity to ensure that citizens could have leisure time.
The education propounded in the Laws differs in several points from that of the Republic. Plato seems to have reflected as deeply and earnestly on the importance of infancy as Rousseau, or Jean Paul (compare the saying of the latter—'Not the moment of death, but the moment of birth, is probably the more important'). He would fix the amusements of children in the hope of fixing their characters in after-life. In the spirit of the statesman who said, 'Let me make the ballads of a country, and I care not who make their laws,' Plato would say, 'Let the amusements of children be unchanged, and they will not want to change the laws. The 'Goddess Harmonia' plays a great part in Plato's ideas of education. The natural restless force of life in children, 'who do nothing but roar until they are three years old,' is gradually to be reduced to law and order. As in the Republic, he fixes certain forms in which songs are to be composed: (1) they are to be strains of cheerfulness and good omen; (2) they are to be hymns or prayers addressed to the Gods; (3) they are to sing only of the lawful and good. The poets are again expelled or rather ironically invited to depart; and those who remain are required to submit their poems to the censorship of the magistrates. Youth are no longer compelled to commit to memory many thousand lyric and tragic Greek verses; yet, perhaps, a worse fate is in store for them. Plato has no belief in 'liberty of prophesying'; and having guarded against the dangers of lyric poetry, he remembers that there is an equal danger in other writings. He cannot leave his old enemies, the Sophists, in possession of the field; and therefore he proposes that youth shall learn by heart, instead of the compositions of poets or prose writers, his own inspired work on laws. These, and music and mathematics, are the chief parts of his education.
The education presented in the Laws differs in several ways from that in the Republic. Plato seems to contemplate the significance of early childhood as deeply and seriously as Rousseau or Jean Paul (consider the latter's saying—'Not the moment of death, but the moment of birth is probably the more important'). He aims to shape children's play with the hope of shaping their character in later life. In the spirit of the statesman who said, 'Let me create a country’s ballads, and I don’t care who makes their laws,' Plato would argue, 'If the play of children remains unchanged, they won’t want to change the laws.' The 'Goddess Harmonia' plays a significant role in Plato's thoughts on education. The natural, restless energy of children, 'who just make noise until they’re three years old,' is gradually meant to be brought into law and order. As in the Republic, he specifies certain formats for composing songs: (1) they should be cheerful and optimistic; (2) they should be hymns or prayers to the Gods; (3) they should only sing about what is lawful and good. Poets are once again expelled or rather ironically encouraged to leave; and those who stay must submit their poems to the magistrates for approval. Young people are no longer forced to memorize thousands of Greek lyric and tragic verses; yet, perhaps, a worse fate awaits them. Plato doesn’t believe in 'freedom of expression'; and after guarding against the risks of lyric poetry, he recalls that there are equal dangers in other types of writing. He can't let his old adversaries, the Sophists, have the upper hand, so he suggests that youth memorize, instead of the works of poets or prose writers, his own inspired writings on laws. These writings, along with music and mathematics, are the main components of his education.
Mathematics are to be cultivated, not as in the Republic with a view to the science of the idea of good,—though the higher use of them is not altogether excluded,—but rather with a religious and political aim. They are a sacred study which teaches men how to distribute the portions of a state, and which is to be pursued in order that they may learn not to blaspheme about astronomy. Against three mathematical errors Plato is in profound earnest. First, the error of supposing that the three dimensions of length, breadth, and height, are really commensurable with one another. The difficulty which he feels is analogous to the difficulty which he formerly felt about the connexion of ideas, and is equally characteristic of ancient philosophy: he fixes his mind on the point of difference, and cannot at the same time take in the similarity. Secondly, he is puzzled about the nature of fractions: in the Republic, he is disposed to deny the possibility of their existence. Thirdly, his optimism leads him to insist (unlike the Spanish king who thought that he could have improved on the mechanism of the heavens) on the perfect or circular movement of the heavenly bodies. He appears to mean, that instead of regarding the stars as overtaking or being overtaken by one another, or as planets wandering in many paths, a more comprehensive survey of the heavens would enable us to infer that they all alike moved in a circle around a centre (compare Timaeus; Republic). He probably suspected, though unacquainted with the true cause, that the appearance of the heavens did not agree with the reality: at any rate, his notions of what was right or fitting easily overpowered the results of actual observation. To the early astronomers, who lived at the revival of science, as to Plato, there was nothing absurd in a priori astronomy, and they would probably have made fewer real discoveries of they had followed any other track. (Compare Introduction to the Republic.)
Mathematics should be nurtured, not just for the sake of understanding the concept of the good, as in the Republic—although a higher purpose isn't entirely ruled out—but rather for religious and political reasons. It's a sacred discipline that teaches people how to allocate resources within a state, and it should be studied to help them avoid speaking irreverently about astronomy. Plato is very serious about three mathematical misconceptions. First, he challenges the idea that the three dimensions of length, width, and height can truly be compared on the same level. The confusion he experiences is similar to his earlier struggles with the connections between ideas; he focuses on their differences and can’t grasp their similarities at the same time. Second, he is confused about the nature of fractions: in the Republic, he tends to deny that they can even exist. Third, his optimistic view leads him to insist—unlike the Spanish king who believed he could improve the workings of the universe—on the perfect or circular motion of celestial bodies. He seems to suggest that, instead of viewing stars as catching up to or being overtaken by one another, or planets roaming off in various directions, a broader perspective of the heavens would reveal that they all move in a circle around a common center (see Timaeus; Republic). He likely suspected, though he didn’t know the actual reason, that the appearance of the heavens didn’t match reality; in any case, his views on what was right or appropriate often overshadowed the results of real observation. For early astronomers, contemporary with the rise of science, as well as for Plato, there was nothing strange about theoretical astronomy, and they likely would have made fewer true discoveries had they followed a different path. (See Introduction to the Republic.)
The science of dialectic is nowhere mentioned by name in the Laws, nor is anything said of the education of after-life. The child is to begin to learn at ten years of age: he is to be taught reading and writing for three years, from ten to thirteen, and no longer; and for three years more, from thirteen to sixteen, he is to be instructed in music. The great fault which Plato finds in the contemporary education is the almost total ignorance of arithmetic and astronomy, in which the Greeks would do well to take a lesson from the Egyptians (compare Republic). Dancing and wrestling are to have a military character, and women as well as men are to be taught the use of arms. The military spirit which Plato has vainly endeavoured to expel in the first two books returns again in the seventh and eighth. He has evidently a sympathy with the soldier, as well as with the poet, and he is no mean master of the art, or at least of the theory, of war (compare Laws; Republic), though inclining rather to the Spartan than to the Athenian practice of it (Laws). Of a supreme or master science which was to be the 'coping-stone' of the rest, few traces appear in the Laws. He seems to have lost faith in it, or perhaps to have realized that the time for such a science had not yet come, and that he was unable to fill up the outline which he had sketched. There is no requirement that the guardians of the law shall be philosophers, although they are to know the unity of virtue, and the connexion of the sciences. Nor are we told that the leisure of the citizens, when they are grown up, is to be devoted to any intellectual employment. In this respect we note a falling off from the Republic, but also there is 'the returning to it' of which Aristotle speaks in the Politics. The public and family duties of the citizens are to be their main business, and these would, no doubt, take up a great deal more time than in the modern world we are willing to allow to either of them. Plato no longer entertains the idea of any regular training to be pursued under the superintendence of the state from eighteen to thirty, or from thirty to thirty-five; he has taken the first step downwards on 'Constitution Hill' (Republic). But he maintains as earnestly as ever that 'to men living under this second polity there remains the greatest of all works, the education of the soul,' and that no bye-work should be allowed to interfere with it. Night and day are not long enough for the consummation of it.
The science of dialectic isn't mentioned by name in the Laws, and nothing is said about life after death. A child should start learning at age ten: they'll learn reading and writing for three years, from ten to thirteen, and no longer; then for another three years, from thirteen to sixteen, they'll study music. Plato criticizes contemporary education for nearly ignoring arithmetic and astronomy, suggesting the Greeks could learn from the Egyptians (see Republic). Dancing and wrestling should have a military aspect, and both women and men should learn to use weapons. The military spirit that Plato tried to eliminate in the first two books reappears in the seventh and eighth. He clearly has an affinity for soldiers as well as poets, and he understands the art or at least the theory of war (see Laws; Republic), leaning more towards Spartan than Athenian practices (Laws). There are few signs of a supreme or master science meant to be the 'final piece' of the others in the Laws. He seems to have lost faith in it or realized that the time for such a science hasn't arrived, and that he can't fully develop the outline he proposed. There's no requirement that the guardians of the law be philosophers, although they should understand the unity of virtue and the connection of the sciences. We're not informed that citizens’ leisure time, when they're adults, will be dedicated to any intellectual pursuits. In this respect, there’s a decline from the Republic, but also a 'return to it,' as Aristotle mentions in the Politics. The main focus of citizens should be their public and family responsibilities, which would undoubtedly take much more time than we allow them in today's world. Plato no longer supports the idea of regular training supervised by the state from eighteen to thirty or from thirty to thirty-five; he has taken the first step down ‘Constitution Hill’ (Republic). However, he still strongly believes that 'for men living under this second regime, the most important task is the education of the soul,' and no side activities should interfere with it. Night and day aren't long enough to achieve it.
Few among us are either able or willing to carry education into later life; five or six years spent at school, three or four at a university, or in the preparation for a profession, an occasional attendance at a lecture to which we are invited by friends when we have an hour to spare from house-keeping or money-making—these comprise, as a matter of fact, the education even of the educated; and then the lamp is extinguished 'more truly than Heracleitus' sun, never to be lighted again' (Republic). The description which Plato gives in the Republic of the state of adult education among his contemporaries may be applied almost word for word to our own age. He does not however acquiesce in this widely-spread want of a higher education; he would rather seek to make every man something of a philosopher before he enters on the duties of active life. But in the Laws he no longer prescribes any regular course of study which is to be pursued in mature years. Nor does he remark that the education of after-life is of another kind, and must consist with the majority of the world rather in the improvement of character than in the acquirement of knowledge. It comes from the study of ourselves and other men: from moderation and experience: from reflection on circumstances: from the pursuit of high aims: from a right use of the opportunities of life. It is the preservation of what we have been, and the addition of something more. The power of abstract study or continuous thought is very rare, but such a training as this can be given by every one to himself.
Few of us are either able or willing to continue our education into later life; five or six years spent in school, three or four at university, or preparing for a profession, along with the occasional lecture we attend when friends invite us and we have some free time from taking care of home or making money—these make up, in reality, the education of even the educated. After that, the lamp is extinguished 'more truly than Heracleitus' sun, never to be lit again' (Republic). Plato's description in the Republic of adult education among his contemporaries applies almost exactly to our own time. However, he doesn't just accept this widespread lack of higher education; he prefers that every person should become somewhat of a philosopher before taking on the responsibilities of active life. But in the Laws, he no longer prescribes any specific course of study to be followed in adulthood. He also doesn't point out that the education of later life is different and should focus more on character development than mere knowledge acquisition. It comes from studying ourselves and others, from moderation and experience, from reflecting on our circumstances, from pursuing noble goals, and from making good use of life's opportunities. It is about preserving who we have been and adding something more. The capacity for abstract study or continuous thought is quite rare, but everyone can engage in this kind of self-training.
The singular passage in Book vii., in which Plato describes life as a pastime, like many other passages in the Laws is imperfectly expressed. Two thoughts seem to be struggling in his mind: first, the reflection, to which he returns at the end of the passage, that men are playthings or puppets, and that God only is the serious aim of human endeavours; this suggests to him the afterthought that, although playthings, they are the playthings of the Gods, and that this is the best of them. The cynical, ironical fancy of the moment insensibly passes into a religious sentiment. In another passage he says that life is a game of which God, who is the player, shifts the pieces so as to procure the victory of good on the whole. Or once more: Tragedies are acted on the stage; but the best and noblest of them is the imitation of the noblest life, which we affirm to be the life of our whole state. Again, life is a chorus, as well as a sort of mystery, in which we have the Gods for playmates. Men imagine that war is their serious pursuit, and they make war that they may return to their amusements. But neither wars nor amusements are the true satisfaction of men, which is to be found only in the society of the Gods, in sacrificing to them and propitiating them. Like a Christian ascetic, Plato seems to suppose that life should be passed wholly in the enjoyment of divine things. And after meditating in amazement on the sadness and unreality of the world, he adds, in a sort of parenthesis, 'Be cheerful, Sirs' (Shakespeare, Tempest.)
The unique passage in Book VII, where Plato describes life as a pastime, like many other parts of the Laws, is not clearly stated. Two ideas seem to be at odds in his mind: first, the thought he returns to at the end of the passage that humans are just playthings or puppets, and that only God is the real focus of human efforts; this leads him to the realization that, even as playthings, they are still the playthings of the Gods, and this is the best part. The cynical, ironic idea gradually transforms into a religious feeling. In another part, he mentions that life is like a game where God, the player, moves the pieces to ensure that good ultimately wins. Or again: Tragedies are performed on stage; but the greatest and noblest of them is the portrayal of the highest life, which we consider to be the life of our entire state. Once more, life is a chorus, as well as a kind of mystery, in which we have the Gods as our companions. People believe that war is their serious goal, and they engage in war so they can return to their leisure activities. But neither wars nor leisure provide true fulfillment for people, which can only be found in the company of the Gods, through offering sacrifices and winning their favor. Like a Christian ascetic, Plato seems to believe that life should be spent entirely enjoying divine things. After reflecting in wonder on the sadness and unreality of the world, he adds, almost as an afterthought, “Be cheerful, Sirs” (Shakespeare, Tempest).
In one of the noblest passages of Plato, he speaks of the relation of the sexes. Natural relations between members of the same family have been established of old; a 'little word' has put a stop to incestuous connexions. But unnatural unions of another kind continued to prevail at Crete and Lacedaemon, and were even justified by the example of the Gods. They, too, might be banished, if the feeling that they were unholy and abominable could sink into the minds of men. The legislator is to cry aloud, and spare not, 'Let not men fall below the level of the beasts.' Plato does not shrink, like some modern philosophers, from 'carrying on war against the mightiest lusts of mankind;' neither does he expect to extirpate them, but only to confine them to their natural use and purpose, by the enactments of law, and by the influence of public opinion. He will not feed them by an over-luxurious diet, nor allow the healthier instincts of the soul to be corrupted by music and poetry. The prohibition of excessive wealth is, as he says, a very considerable gain in the way of temperance, nor does he allow of those enthusiastic friendships between older and younger persons which in his earlier writings appear to be alluded to with a certain degree of amusement and without reproof (compare Introduction to the Symposium). Sappho and Anacreon are celebrated by him in the Charmides and the Phaedrus; but they would have been expelled from the Magnesian state.
In one of Plato's most profound passages, he discusses the relationship between the sexes. Long ago, natural relationships among family members were defined, and a simple word has put an end to incest. However, abnormal unions of a different kind persisted in Crete and Lacedaemon and were even legitimized by the actions of the Gods. These too could be eliminated if the belief that they were wrong and disgusting could take root in people's minds. The lawgiver should declare strongly, "Let not humans sink below the level of animals." Unlike some modern philosophers, Plato doesn't hesitate to challenge the strongest desires of humanity; he doesn’t expect to eradicate them, but aims to redirect them towards their rightful use and purpose through laws and societal influence. He won’t encourage them with excessive indulgence, nor permit the healthier instincts of the soul to be tainted by music and poetry. He claims that limiting excessive wealth is a significant advancement towards temperance, and he does not support those passionate friendships between older and younger individuals, which he previously mentioned with a hint of humor and without reproach (see Introduction to the Symposium). Although he praises Sappho and Anacreon in the Charmides and Phaedrus, they would have been banned from the Magnesian state.
Yet he does not suppose that the rule of absolute purity can be enforced on all mankind. Something must be conceded to the weakness of human nature. He therefore adopts a 'second legal standard of honourable and dishonourable, having a second standard of right.' He would abolish altogether 'the connexion of men with men...As to women, if any man has to do with any but those who come into his house duly married by sacred rites, and he offends publicly in the face of all mankind, we shall be right in enacting that he be deprived of civic honours and privileges.' But feeling also that it is impossible wholly to control the mightiest passions of mankind,' Plato, like other legislators, makes a compromise. The offender must not be found out; decency, if not morality, must be respected. In this he appears to agree with the practice of all civilized ages and countries. Much may be truly said by the moralist on the comparative harm of open and concealed vice. Nor do we deny that some moral evils are better turned out to the light, because, like diseases, when exposed, they are more easily cured. And secrecy introduces mystery which enormously exaggerates their power; a mere animal want is thus elevated into a sentimental ideal. It may very well be that a word spoken in season about things which are commonly concealed may have an excellent effect. But having regard to the education of youth, to the innocence of children, to the sensibilities of women, to the decencies of society, Plato and the world in general are not wrong in insisting that some of the worst vices, if they must exist, should be kept out of sight; this, though only a second-best rule, is a support to the weakness of human nature. There are some things which may be whispered in the closet, but should not be shouted on the housetop. It may be said of this, as of many other things, that it is a great part of education to know to whom they are to be spoken of, and when, and where.
Yet he doesn’t believe that the rule of complete purity can be enforced on everyone. Some allowance must be made for the weaknesses of human nature. Therefore, he adopts a "second legal standard of honorable and dishonorable, having a second standard of right." He would entirely eliminate "the connection of men with men... As for women, if a man is involved with anyone other than those who come into his house properly married by sacred rites, and he offends publicly in front of everyone, we would be justified in enacting that he be stripped of civic honors and privileges." But also recognizing that it’s impossible to completely control the strongest passions of humanity, Plato, like other lawmakers, makes a compromise. The offender must not be discovered; decency, if not morality, must be upheld. In this, he seems to align with the practices of all civilized times and places. A moralist can say a lot about the relative harm of open versus hidden vices. We do not deny that some moral wrongs are better brought to light, because, like illnesses, they are more easily treated when exposed. Secrecy creates a mystery that greatly amplifies their power; a simple base desire is thus elevated into a sentimental ideal. It may be that a timely word about matters that are usually hidden can have a positive impact. However, considering the education of youth, the innocence of children, the sensibilities of women, and the decencies of society, Plato and the world in general are not mistaken in insisting that some of the worst vices, if they must exist, should be kept out of sight; this, though only a second-best guideline, supports the weaknesses of human nature. There are some things that may be whispered in private but should not be shouted from the rooftops. It can be said of this, as of many other things, that a significant part of education is knowing to whom they should be addressed, and when, and where.
BOOK IX. Punishments of offences and modes of procedure come next in order. We have a sense of disgrace in making regulations for all the details of crime in a virtuous and well-ordered state. But seeing that we are legislating for men and not for Gods, there is no uncharitableness in apprehending that some one of our citizens may have a heart, like the seed which has touched the ox's horn, so hard as to be impenetrable to the law. Let our first enactment be directed against the robbing of temples. No well-educated citizen will be guilty of such a crime, but one of their servants, or some stranger, may, and with a view to him, and at the same time with a remoter eye to the general infirmity of human nature, I will lay down the law, beginning with a prelude. To the intending robber we will say—O sir, the complaint which troubles you is not human; but some curse has fallen upon you, inherited from the crimes of your ancestors, of which you must purge yourself: go and sacrifice to the Gods, associate with the good, avoid the wicked; and if you are cured of the fatal impulse, well; but if not, acknowledge death to be better than life, and depart.
BOOK IX. Next up are the punishments for offenses and the ways we approach them. It feels embarrassing to create detailed rules about crime in a virtuous and organized society. However, since we’re making laws for people, not gods, it’s not unfair to acknowledge that some citizens might have a heart that’s as hard as a seed that’s been touched by an ox's horn—impenetrable to the law. Our first law will target the theft of temples. No educated citizen would commit such an act, but maybe one of their servants or a stranger might, so we’ll address that, while also considering the general weaknesses of human nature. To anyone thinking of robbing a temple, we’ll say: O sir, the anxiety you feel isn’t human—it’s a curse passed down from your ancestors’ wrongdoings, and you need to cleanse yourself of it. Go and make sacrifices to the gods, surround yourself with good people, and steer clear of the wicked. If you manage to overcome this dangerous urge, great; but if not, recognize that death is better than a life of crime, and choose to leave.
These are the accents, soft and low, in which we address the would-be criminal. And if he will not listen, then cry aloud as with the sound of a trumpet: Whosoever robs a temple, if he be a slave or foreigner shall be branded in the face and hands, and scourged, and cast naked beyond the border. And perhaps this may improve him: for the law aims either at the reformation of the criminal, or the repression of crime. No punishment is designed to inflict useless injury. But if the offender be a citizen, he must be incurable, and for him death is the only fitting penalty. His iniquity, however, shall not be visited on his children, nor shall his property be confiscated.
These are the soft and low tones we use when speaking to a potential criminal. And if he doesn't listen, then shout loudly like a trumpet: Anyone who steals from a temple, whether a slave or a foreigner, will be branded on the face and hands, whipped, and banished naked beyond the border. And maybe this will help him improve: because the law seeks either to reform the criminal or to deter crime. No punishment is meant to cause unnecessary harm. But if the offender is a citizen, he must be beyond help, and death is the only appropriate punishment for him. However, his wrongdoing will not affect his children, nor will his property be seized.
As to the exaction of penalties, any person who is fined for an offence shall not be liable to pay the fine, unless he have property in excess of his lot. For the lots must never go uncultivated for lack of means; the guardians of the law are to provide against this. If a fine is inflicted upon a man which he cannot pay, and for which his friends are unwilling to give security, he shall be imprisoned and otherwise dishonoured. But no criminal shall go unpunished:—whether death, or imprisonment, or stripes, or fines, or the stocks, or banishment to a remote temple, be the penalty. Capital offences shall come under the cognizance of the guardians of the law, and a college of the best of the last year's magistrates. The order of suits and similar details we shall leave to the lawgivers of the future, and only determine the mode of voting. The judges are to sit in order of seniority, and the proceedings shall begin with the speeches of the plaintiff and the defendant; and then the judges, beginning with the eldest, shall ask questions and collect evidence during three days, which, at the end of each day, shall be deposited in writing under their seals on the altar of Hestia; and when they have evidence enough, after a solemn declaration that they will decide justly, they shall vote and end the case. The votes are to be given openly in the presence of the citizens.
Regarding penalties, anyone who is fined for an offense won’t have to pay the fine unless they own property beyond their lot. Lots should never remain uncultivated due to lack of resources; the law's guardians must ensure this doesn’t happen. If someone is fined and can’t pay, and their friends refuse to back them up, they will face imprisonment and other forms of humiliation. No criminal will escape punishment—whether it’s death, imprisonment, whipping, fines, stocks, or banishment to a distant temple, there will be consequences. Serious crimes will be handled by the law's guardians and a panel of the best magistrates from the previous year. The specifics of lawsuits and similar procedures will be left to future lawmakers, and we will only establish how voting will take place. Judges will sit in order of seniority, and proceedings will start with arguments from the plaintiff and the defendant; then, the judges, starting with the oldest, will ask questions and gather evidence over three days. At the end of each day, evidence will be submitted in writing, sealed, and placed on the altar of Hestia. Once they have sufficient proof, and after a solemn pledge to decide fairly, they will cast their votes and conclude the case. Votes will be cast openly in front of the citizens.
Next to religion, the preservation of the constitution is the first object of the law. The greatest enemy of the state is he who attempts to set up a tyrant, or breeds plots and conspiracies; not far below him in guilt is a magistrate who either knowingly, or in ignorance, fails to bring the offender to justice. Any one who is good for anything will give information against traitors. The mode of proceeding at such trials will be the same as at trials for sacrilege; the penalty, death. But neither in this case nor in any other is the son to bear the iniquity of the father, unless father, grandfather, great-grandfather, have all of them been capitally convicted, and then the family of the criminal are to be sent off to the country of their ancestor, retaining their property, with the exception of the lot and its fixtures. And ten are to be selected from the younger sons of the other citizens—one of whom is to be chosen by the oracle of Delphi to be heir of the lot.
Next to religion, preserving the constitution is the highest priority of the law. The biggest threat to the state is someone trying to install a tyrant or who creates plots and conspiracies. A magistrate who either knowingly or unknowingly fails to bring such offenders to justice is almost as guilty. Anyone who is worth anything will report traitors. The process for these trials will be the same as for trials related to sacrilege, with the punishment being death. However, in this case, as in all others, a son shouldn't have to bear the wrongdoing of the father unless the father, grandfather, and great-grandfather have all been sentenced to death. If that's the case, the criminal's family should be sent to their ancestor's country, keeping their property except for the lot and its fixtures. Additionally, ten younger sons from the other citizens will be selected, and one will be chosen by the oracle of Delphi to inherit the lot.
Our third law will be a general one, concerning the procedure and the judges in cases of treason. As regards the remaining or departure of the family of the offender, the same law shall apply equally to the traitor, the sacrilegious, and the conspirator.
Our third law will be a broad one, addressing the process and the judges in treason cases. Regarding the family of the offender, the same law will apply equally to the traitor, the blasphemer, and the conspirator.
A thief, whether he steals much or little, must refund twice the amount, if he can do so without impairing his lot; if he cannot, he must go to prison until he either pays the plaintiff, or in case of a public theft, the city, or they agree to forgive him. 'But should all kinds of theft incur the same penalty?' You remind me of what I know—that legislation is never perfect. The men for whom laws are now made may be compared to the slave who is being doctored, according to our old image, by the unscientific doctor. For the empirical practitioner, if he chance to meet the educated physician talking to his patient, and entering into the philosophy of his disease, would burst out laughing and say, as doctors delight in doing, 'Foolish fellow, instead of curing the patient you are educating him!' 'And would he not be right?' Perhaps; and he might add, that he who discourses in our fashion preaches to the citizens instead of legislating for them. 'True.' There is, however, one advantage which we possess—that being amateurs only, we may either take the most ideal, or the most necessary and utilitarian view. 'But why offer such an alternative? As if all our legislation must be done to-day, and nothing put off until the morrow. We may surely rough-hew our materials first, and shape and place them afterwards.' That will be the natural way of proceeding. There is a further point. Of all writings either in prose or verse the writings of the legislator are the most important. For it is he who has to determine the nature of good and evil, and how they should be studied with a view to our instruction. And is it not as disgraceful for Solon and Lycurgus to lay down false precepts about the institutions of life as for Homer and Tyrtaeus? The laws of states ought to be the models of writing, and what is at variance with them should be deemed ridiculous. And we may further imagine them to express the affection and good sense of a father or mother, and not to be the fiats of a tyrant. 'Very true.'
A thief, whether he steals a lot or a little, must pay back double the amount if he can do so without ruining his situation; if he can’t, he must go to jail until he either pays the victim, or in cases of public theft, the city, or until they agree to forgive him. 'But shouldn't all types of theft have the same punishment?' You remind me that legislation is never perfect. The people for whom laws are made can be compared to a slave being treated by an unqualified doctor. If the untrained practitioner happens to see the educated physician discussing a patient’s condition and the philosophy behind it, he would chuckle and say, as doctors often do, 'Silly man, instead of fixing the patient, you’re teaching him!' 'And wouldn’t he be right?' Maybe; he could also argue that those who talk in our style are preaching to the citizens instead of actually making laws for them. 'True.' However, we do have one advantage—that since we are just amateurs, we can take either the most ideal or the most practical perspective. 'But why present such an option? As if all our laws must be finalized today, and nothing can wait until tomorrow. We can definitely rough out our ideas first and refine them later.' That would be the natural way to go about it. There’s another point. Of all writings, whether in prose or poetry, a legislator’s writings are the most significant. It is he who has to define what is good and what is bad, and how they should be understood for our guidance. Isn’t it just as shameful for Solon and Lycurgus to set down false principles about life’s institutions as it is for Homer and Tyrtaeus? The laws of a state should serve as the benchmarks for writing, and anything contrary to them should be seen as absurd. We can also envision them as expressing the love and wisdom of a parent, rather than being the commands of a tyrant. 'Very true.'
Let us enquire more particularly about sacrilege, theft and other crimes, for which we have already legislated in part. And this leads us to ask, first of all, whether we are agreed or disagreed about the nature of the honourable and just. 'To what are you referring?' I will endeavour to explain. All are agreed that justice is honourable, whether in men or things, and no one who maintains that a very ugly men who is just, is in his mind fair, would be thought extravagant. 'Very true.' But if honour is to be attributed to justice, are just sufferings honourable, or only just actions? 'What do you mean?' Our laws supply a case in point; for we enacted that the robber of temples and the traitor should die; and this was just, but the reverse of honourable. In this way does the language of the many rend asunder the just and honourable. 'That is true.' But is our own language consistent? I have already said that the evil are involuntarily evil; and the evil are the unjust. Now the voluntary cannot be the involuntary; and if you two come to me and say, 'Then shall we legislate for our city?' Of course, I shall reply.—'Then will you distinguish what crimes are voluntary and what involuntary, and shall we impose lighter penalties on the latter, and heavier on the former? Or shall we refuse to determine what is the meaning of voluntary and involuntary, and maintain that our words have come down from heaven, and that they should be at once embodied in a law?' All states legislate under the idea that there are two classes of actions, the voluntary and the involuntary, but there is great confusion about them in the minds of men; and the law can never act unless they are distinguished. Either we must abstain from affirming that unjust actions are involuntary, or explain the meaning of this statement. Believing, then, that acts of injustice cannot be divided into voluntary and involuntary, I must endeavour to find some other mode of classifying them. Hurts are voluntary and involuntary, but all hurts are not injuries: on the other hand, a benefit when wrongly conferred may be an injury. An act which gives or takes away anything is not simply just; but the legislator who has to decide whether the case is one of hurt or injury, must consider the animus of the agent; and when there is hurt, he must as far as possible, provide a remedy and reparation: but if there is injustice, he must, when compensation has been made, further endeavour to reconcile the two parties. 'Excellent.' Where injustice, like disease, is remediable, there the remedy must be applied in word or deed, with the assistance of pleasures and pains, of bounties and penalties, or any other influence which may inspire man with the love of justice, or hatred of injustice; and this is the noblest work of law. But when the legislator perceives the evil to be incurable, he will consider that the death of the offender will be a good to himself, and in two ways a good to society: first, as he becomes an example to others; secondly, because the city will be quit of a rogue; and in such a case, but in no other, the legislator will punish with death. 'There is some truth in what you say. I wish, however, that you would distinguish more clearly the difference of injury and hurt, and the complications of voluntary and involuntary.' You will admit that anger is of a violent and destructive nature? 'Certainly.' And further, that pleasure is different from anger, and has an opposite power, working by persuasion and deceit? 'Yes.' Ignorance is the third source of crimes; this is of two kinds—simple ignorance and ignorance doubled by conceit of knowledge; the latter, when accompanied with power, is a source of terrible errors, but is excusable when only weak and childish. 'True.' We often say that one man masters, and another is mastered by pleasure and anger. 'Just so.' But no one says that one man masters, and another is mastered by ignorance. 'You are right.' All these motives actuate men and sometimes drive them in different ways. 'That is so.' Now, then, I am in a position to define the nature of just and unjust. By injustice I mean the dominion of anger and fear, pleasure and pain, envy and desire, in the soul, whether doing harm or not: by justice I mean the rule of the opinion of the best, whether in states or individuals, extending to the whole of life; although actions done in error are often thought to be involuntary injustice. No controversy need be raised about names at present; we are only desirous of fixing in our memories the heads of error. And the pain which is called fear and anger is our first head of error; the second is the class of pleasures and desires; and the third, of hopes which aim at true opinion about the best;—this latter falls into three divisions (i.e. (1) when accompanied by simple ignorance, (2) when accompanied by conceit of wisdom combined with power, or (3) with weakness), so that there are in all five. And the laws relating to them may be summed up under two heads, laws which deal with acts of open violence and with acts of deceit; to which may be added acts both violent and deceitful, and these last should be visited with the utmost rigour of the law. 'Very properly.'
Let’s take a closer look at sacrilege, theft, and other crimes, for which we’ve already made some laws. This brings us to the question of whether we agree or disagree about what is honorable and just. ‘What do you mean by that?’ I’ll try to clarify. Everyone agrees that justice is honorable, whether it’s applied to people or things, and no one would think it strange to say that an unjust but very ugly man isn’t considered fair in his mind. ‘That’s true.’ But if we attribute honor to justice, are the sufferings of just individuals considered honorable, or only their just actions? ‘What do you mean?’ Our laws provide an example; we enacted that temple robbers and traitors should face death, which is just, but not honorable. This shows how the opinions of the many can separate justice from honor. ‘That’s right.’ But is our own language consistent? I’ve already stated that the evil do evil acts involuntarily, and that evil acts belong to the unjust. The voluntary cannot be the involuntary; and if you come to me and say, 'Should we legislate for our city?' I would certainly respond—‘Will you identify what crimes are voluntary and what are involuntary, and should we impose lighter penalties on the latter and harsher on the former? Or shall we ignore the meaning of voluntary and involuntary and claim our words come from heaven, demanding they be written into law?’ All societies legislate under the belief that there are two types of actions—voluntary and involuntary—but there’s a lot of confusion about them among people; the law can never act unless we make this distinction. We must either refrain from claiming that unjust actions are involuntary or explain what we mean by that. Believing that unjust acts cannot be neatly classified as voluntary or involuntary, I need to find another way to categorize them. Hurts can be either voluntary or involuntary, but not all hurts qualify as injuries; conversely, a benefit that is wrongly given can be considered an injury. An act that gives or takes away something is not inherently just; the lawmaker deciding if the case involves a hurt or an injury must take the intent of the doer into account; if there’s a hurt, they should provide a solution and compensation as much as possible, but if there’s injustice, they should, after compensation, also strive to reconcile the two parties. ‘Excellent.’ Where injustice, like a disease, can be cured, the remedy should be applied through speech or action, using pleasures and pains, rewards and punishments, or any other influence that can inspire a love of justice or a hatred of injustice; and this is the highest aim of the law. But when the lawmaker sees that the harm is incurable, they may conclude that the offender's death will benefit themselves and society in two ways: first, they become a cautionary tale for others, and second, the city is rid of a criminal; in such a case, and no other, the lawmaker will impose a death sentence. ‘There is some truth in what you say. I wish, though, that you would clarify the difference between injury and hurt, and the complexities of voluntary and involuntary acts.’ You’d agree that anger is inherently violent and destructive? ‘Absolutely.’ And that pleasure is different from anger and has the opposite effect, often misleading people? ‘Yes.’ Ignorance is another source of crimes; it comes in two types—simple ignorance and ignorance compounded by a false sense of knowledge; the latter, particularly when linked with power, can lead to terrible mistakes, but is excusable when it involves mere weakness and childishness. ‘True.’ We often say that one person can control pleasure and anger, while another is controlled by them. ‘Exactly.’ But no one says one person can control ignorance while another is controlled by it. ‘You’re right.’ All these motivations drive people and can lead them in various directions. ‘That’s correct.’ So now I’m ready to define what is just and unjust. By injustice, I mean the rule of anger, fear, pleasure and pain, envy and desire within the soul, whether they cause harm or not; by justice, I mean the influence of the best opinion, whether in states or individuals, encompassing all aspects of life; even though acts committed in error are often seen as involuntary injustices. We don’t need to argue about names right now; we just want to remember the core aspects of errors. The pain involving fear and anger is our first aspect of error; the second concerns pleasures and desires; and the third includes hopes aiming for true understanding about the best; this last category divides into three segments: (1) when it's paired with simple ignorance, (2) when it's paired with a false sense of wisdom combined with power, or (3) when it involves weakness—leading to a total of five categories. The laws associated with these can be summed up into two groups: laws addressing acts of open violence and those covering acts of deceit; we can also include acts that are both violent and deceitful, which should be dealt with the strictest measures of the law. ‘Very properly.’
Let us now return to the enactment of laws. We have treated of sacrilege, and of conspiracy, and of treason. Any of these crimes may be committed by a person not in his right mind, or in the second childhood of old age. If this is proved to be the fact before the judges, the person in question shall only have to pay for the injury, and not be punished further, unless he have on his hands the stain of blood. In this case he shall be exiled for a year, and if he return before the expiration of the year, he shall be retained in the public prison two years.
Let’s now go back to discussing laws. We’ve talked about sacrilege, conspiracy, and treason. Any of these crimes can be committed by someone who isn’t in their right mind or who is in the later stages of old age. If this is proven to the judges, the person will only need to compensate for the harm caused and won’t face further punishment, unless they have blood on their hands. In that case, they will be exiled for a year, and if they return before the year is up, they will spend two years in public prison.
Homicides may be divided into voluntary and involuntary: and first of involuntary homicide. He who unintentionally kills another man at the games or in military exercises duly authorized by the magistrates, whether death follow immediately or after an interval, shall be acquitted, subject only to the purification required by the Delphian Oracle. Any physician whose patient dies against his will shall in like manner be acquitted. Any one who unintentionally kills the slave of another, believing that he is his own, with or without weapons, shall bear the master of the slave harmless, or pay a penalty amounting to twice the value of the slave, and to this let him add a purification greater than in the case of homicide at the games. If a man kill his own slave, a purification only is required of him. If he kill a freeman unintentionally, let him also make purification; and let him remember the ancient tradition which says that the murdered man is indignant when he sees the murderer walk about in his own accustomed haunts, and that he terrifies him with the remembrance of his crime. And therefore the homicide should keep away from his native land for a year, or, if he have slain a stranger, let him avoid the land of the stranger for a like period. If he complies with this condition, the nearest kinsman of the deceased shall take pity upon him and be reconciled to him; but if he refuses to remain in exile, or visits the temples unpurified, then let the kinsman proceed against him, and demand a double penalty. The kinsman who neglects this duty shall himself incur the curse, and any one who likes may proceed against him, and compel him to leave his country for five years. If a stranger involuntarily kill a stranger, any one may proceed against him in the same manner: and the homicide, if he be a metic, shall be banished for a year; but if he be an entire stranger, whether he have murdered metic, citizen, or stranger, he shall be banished for ever; and if he return, he shall be punished with death, and his property shall go to the next of kin of the murdered man. If he come back by sea against his will, he shall remain on the seashore, wetting his feet in the water while he waits for a vessel to sail; or if he be brought back by land, the magistrates shall send him unharmed beyond the border.
Homicides can be categorized into voluntary and involuntary, starting with involuntary homicide. If someone unintentionally kills another person during games or military exercises sanctioned by officials, whether the death happens right away or after some time, they will be acquitted, only needing to undergo the purification required by the Delphian Oracle. Similarly, if a doctor’s patient dies against their will, the doctor will also be acquitted. If someone unintentionally kills another person's slave, thinking it’s their own, with or without a weapon, they must either keep the slave's owner unharmed or pay a penalty that’s twice the slave's value, along with a more significant purification than for homicide occurring during games. If someone kills their own slave, they only need to perform a purification. If they unintentionally kill a free person, they should also perform a purification, and they should remember the old belief that the murdered person feels anger when seeing their killer going about in familiar places, haunting them with memories of their crime. Therefore, the killer should stay away from their own land for a year, or if they killed a stranger, they should avoid the stranger's land for the same amount of time. If they follow this rule, the closest relative of the deceased may show compassion and reconcile with them; but if they refuse to stay in exile or visit temples while unpurified, the relative can take action against them and demand a double penalty. A relative who ignores this responsibility will also face the curse, and anyone can take legal action against them, forcing them to leave their country for five years. If a stranger unintentionally kills another stranger, anyone can take action against them in the same way: and if the killer is a metic, they will be banished for a year; but if they are a complete stranger, regardless of whether they killed a citizen, metic, or another stranger, they will be banished forever; and if they return, they will face the death penalty, and their property will go to the next of kin of the victim. If they return by sea against their will, they must stay on the shore, dipping their feet in the water while waiting for a ship to take them away; or if they are brought back by land, the officials will send them away unharmed beyond the borders.
Next follows murder done from anger, which is of two kinds—either arising out of a sudden impulse, and attended with remorse; or committed with premeditation, and unattended with remorse. The cause of both is anger, and both are intermediate between voluntary and involuntary. The one which is committed from sudden impulse, though not wholly involuntary, bears the image of the involuntary, and is therefore the more excusable of the two, and should receive a gentler punishment. The act of him who nurses his wrath is more voluntary, and therefore more culpable. The degree of culpability depends on the presence or absence of intention, to which the degree of punishment should correspond. For the first kind of murder, that which is done on a momentary impulse, let two years' exile be the penalty; for the second, that which is accompanied with malice prepense, three. When the time of any one's exile has expired, the guardians shall send twelve judges to the borders of the land, who shall have authority to decide whether he may return or not. He who after returning repeats the offence, shall be exiled and return no more, and, if he return, shall be put to death, like the stranger in a similar case. He who in a fit of anger kills his own slave, shall purify himself; and he who kills another man's slave, shall pay to his master double the value. Any one may proceed against the offender if he appear in public places, not having been purified; and may bring to trial both the next of kin to the dead man and the homicide, and compel the one to exact, and the other to pay, a double penalty. If a slave kill his master, or a freeman who is not his master, in anger, the kinsmen of the murdered person may do with the murderer whatever they please, but they must not spare his life. If a father or mother kill their son or daughter in anger, let the slayer remain in exile for three years; and on the return of the exile let the parents separate, and no longer continue to cohabit, or have the same sacred rites with those whom he or she has deprived of a brother or sister. The same penalty is decreed against the husband who murders his wife, and also against the wife who murders her husband. Let them be absent three years, and on their return never again share in the same sacred rites with their children, or sit at the same table with them. Nor is a brother or sister who have lifted up their hands against a brother or sister, ever to come under the same roof or share in the same rites with those whom they have robbed of a child. If a son feels such hatred against his father or mother as to take the life of either of them, then, if the parent before death forgive him, he shall only suffer the penalty due to involuntary homicide; but if he be unforgiven, there are many laws against which he has offended; he is guilty of outrage, impiety, sacrilege all in one, and deserves to be put to death many times over. For if the law will not allow a man to kill the authors of his being even in self-defence, what other penalty than death can be inflicted upon him who in a fit of passion wilfully slays his father or mother? If a brother kill a brother in self-defence during a civil broil, or a citizen a citizen, or a slave a slave, or a stranger a stranger, let them be free from blame, as he is who slays an enemy in battle. But if a slave kill a freeman, let him be as a parricide. In all cases, however, the forgiveness of the injured party shall acquit the agents; and then they shall only be purified, and remain in exile for a year.
Next comes murder committed in anger, which can be classified into two types—either done from a sudden impulse, accompanied by remorse, or carried out with premeditation, without any remorse. The root of both is anger, and they fall somewhere between voluntary and involuntary actions. The one driven by sudden impulse, while not entirely involuntary, reflects a sense of the involuntary, making it the more justifiable of the two, and deserving of a lighter punishment. The act of someone who harbors anger is more intentional and, therefore, more blameworthy. The level of blame depends on whether there was intent, which should determine the punishment. For the first type of murder, committed out of momentary impulse, the penalty should be two years of exile; for the second type, committed with malice aforethought, three years. When someone's exile ends, twelve judges will be sent to the borders to decide if they can return or not. If a person returns and reoffends, they will be exiled permanently, and if they return again, they will be executed, just like a foreigner in a similar situation. If someone kills their own slave in a fit of anger, they must purify themselves; if they kill someone else's slave, they owe the master double the slave's value. Anyone can take action against the offender if they appear in public without being purified, and can bring the next of kin of the dead and the killer to trial, requiring the former to demand and the latter to pay a double penalty. If a slave kills their master or a freeman who is not their master in anger, the family of the murdered person can do as they wish with the killer, but they must not spare their life. If a parent kills their son or daughter in anger, they shall be in exile for three years; upon their return, the parents must separate and no longer live together or perform the same sacred rites as those they have denied a sibling. The same penalty applies to a husband who kills his wife and to a wife who kills her husband. They must be absent for three years and, upon returning, they cannot participate in the same sacred rites with their children or eat at the same table. Likewise, a brother or sister who harms their sibling is never allowed under the same roof or to share the same rites with those they have robbed of a child. If a son harbors such hatred for his parent that he kills them, and if the parent forgives him before dying, he will only face the punishment for involuntary homicide; but if he is not forgiven, he has broken many laws and is guilty of outrage, impiety, and sacrilege, deserving the death penalty multiple times over. For if the law does not allow killing one’s own parents even in self-defense, what punishment could be worse than death for someone who intentionally takes their father or mother's life in a fit of anger? If a brother kills a brother in self-defense during a civil conflict, or a citizen kills a fellow citizen, or a slave kills another slave, or a stranger kills a stranger, they will be blameless, just like someone who kills an enemy in battle. However, if a slave kills a freeman, they will be treated like a parricide. In all cases, though, the forgiveness of the injured party will free the offender, and they will only need to be purified, remaining in exile for a year.
Enough of actions that are involuntary, or done in anger; let us proceed to voluntary and premeditated actions. The great source of voluntary crime is the desire of money, which is begotten by evil education; and this arises out of the false praise of riches, common both among Hellenes and barbarians; they think that to be the first of goods which is really the third. For the body is not for the sake of wealth, but wealth for the body, as the body is for the soul. If this were better understood, the crime of murder, of which avarice is the chief cause, would soon cease among men. Next to avarice, ambition is a source of crime, troublesome to the ambitious man himself, as well as to the chief men of the state. And next to ambition, base fear is a motive, which has led many an one to commit murder in order that he may get rid of the witnesses of his crimes. Let this be said as a prelude to all enactments about crimes of violence; and the tradition must not be forgotten, which tells that the murderer is punished in the world below, and that when he returns to this world he meets the fate which he has dealt out to others. If a man is deterred by the prelude and the fear of future punishment, he will have no need of the law; but in case he disobey, let the law be declared against him as follows:—He who of malice prepense kills one of his kindred, shall in the first place be outlawed; neither temple, harbour, nor agora shall be polluted by his presence. And if a kinsman of the deceased refuse to proceed against his slayer, he shall take the curse of pollution upon himself, and also be liable to be prosecuted by any one who will avenge the dead. The prosecutor, however, must observe the customary ceremonial before he proceeds against the offender. The details of these observances will be best determined by a conclave of prophets and interpreters and guardians of the law, and the judges of the cause itself shall be the same as in cases of sacrilege. He who is convicted shall be punished with death, and not be buried within the country of the murdered person. He who flies from the law shall undergo perpetual banishment; if he return, he may be put to death with impunity by any relative of the murdered man or by any other citizen, or bound and delivered to the magistrates. He who accuses a man of murder shall demand satisfactory bail of the accused, and if this is not forthcoming, the magistrate shall keep him in prison against the day of trial. If a man commit murder by the hand of another, he shall be tried in the same way as in the cases previously supposed, but if the offender be a citizen, his body after execution shall be buried within the land.
Enough of actions that are involuntary or done in anger; let’s move on to voluntary and premeditated actions. The major cause of voluntary crime is the desire for money, which comes from bad education; this stems from the false admiration of wealth, common among both Greeks and non-Greeks. They mistakenly believe that wealth is the highest good, which is actually the third. The body exists not for the sake of wealth, but wealth exists for the body, just as the body exists for the soul. If this were better understood, the crime of murder, primarily driven by greed, would quickly diminish among people. Following greed, ambition also fuels crime, causing trouble for the ambitious individual as well as the leaders in society. Next to ambition, base fear can drive someone to commit murder just to eliminate witnesses to their crimes. This should serve as an introduction to all laws regarding violent crimes; and we must not forget the tradition stating that murderers face punishment in the underworld, and when they return to this world, they meet the same fate they inflicted on others. If a person is deterred by this introduction and the fear of future punishment, they will have no need for the law; but if they disobey, let the law state the following:—Anyone who maliciously kills a family member shall be outlawed; their presence shall defile none of the sacred places, ports, or marketplace. If a relative of the deceased refuses to act against the murderer, they will bring pollution upon themselves and can be prosecuted by anyone who wishes to avenge the dead. However, the prosecutor must follow the customary rituals before pursuing the offender. The specifics of these rituals should be determined by a council of prophets, interpreters, guardians of the law, and the judges in the case will be the same as in sacrilege cases. Anyone convicted shall face the death penalty and will not be allowed to be buried in the country of the murdered individual. Anyone who escapes the law will face eternal banishment; if they return, any relative of the murdered person or any other citizen can kill them without penalty, or they can be captured and handed over to the magistrates. Anyone accusing someone of murder must demand adequate bail from the accused, and if it isn’t provided, the magistrate will keep them in jail until the trial. If someone commits murder through another person, they will be tried in the same way as in earlier cases, but if the perpetrator is a citizen, their body shall be buried in the land afterward.
If a slave kill a freeman, either with his own hand or by contrivance, let him be led either to the grave or to a place whence he can see the grave of the murdered man, and there receive as many stripes at the hand of the public executioner as the person who took him pleases; and if he survive he shall be put to death. If a slave be put out of the way to prevent his informing of some crime, his death shall be punished like that of a citizen. If there are any of those horrible murders of kindred which sometimes occur even in well-regulated societies, and of which the legislator, however unwilling, cannot avoid taking cognizance, he will repeat the old myth of the divine vengeance against the perpetrators of such atrocities. The myth will say that the murderer must suffer what he has done: if he have slain his father, he must be slain by his children; if his mother, he must become a woman and perish at the hands of his offspring in another age of the world. Such a preamble may terrify him; but if, notwithstanding, in some evil hour he murders father or mother or brethren or children, the mode of proceeding shall be as follows:—Him who is convicted, the officers of the judges shall lead to a spot without the city where three ways meet, and there slay him and expose his body naked; and each of the magistrates shall cast a stone upon his head and justify the city, and he shall be thrown unburied beyond the border. But what shall we say of him who takes the life which is dearest to him, that is to say, his own; and this not from any disgrace or calamity, but from cowardice and indolence? The manner of his burial and the purification of his crime is a matter for God and the interpreters to decide and for his kinsmen to execute. Let him, at any rate, be buried alone in some uncultivated and nameless spot, and be without name or monument. If a beast kill a man, not in a public contest, let it be prosecuted for murder, and after condemnation slain and cast without the border. Also inanimate things which have caused death, except in the case of lightning and other visitations from heaven, shall be carried without the border. If the body of a dead man be found, and the murderer remain unknown, the trial shall take place all the same, and the unknown murderer shall be warned not to set foot in the temples or come within the borders of the land; if discovered, he shall die, and his body shall be cast out. A man is justified in taking the life of a burglar, of a footpad, of a violator of women or youth; and he may take the life of another with impunity in defence of father, mother, brother, wife, or other relations.
If a slave kills a free person, whether directly or by plotting, he should be taken to the grave or to a place where he can see the grave of the murdered person, and there he should receive as many lashes from the public executioner as the victim's family decides; and if he survives, he will be executed. If a slave is killed to prevent him from revealing a crime, his death will be punished the same way as a citizen's. If there are any horrific murders among family members that sometimes happen even in well-ordered societies, the lawmaker, despite his reluctance, must address them. He will invoke the old myth of divine retribution against those who commit such crimes. The myth states that a murderer must face the consequences of their actions: if he kills his father, he should be killed by his children; if he kills his mother, he should become a woman and be killed by his own offspring in another lifetime. Such a warning may frighten him; but if, in a moment of darkness, he murders his father, mother, siblings, or children, the procedure will be as follows: The convicted person will be taken by the judicial officers to a spot outside the city where three roads meet, and there they will execute him and leave his body exposed; each magistrate will throw a stone on his head to justify the city, and he will be buried beyond the borders without a proper burial. But what about someone who takes their own life, especially not due to shame or hardship, but out of fear and laziness? The decision on how to bury him and cleanse his crime belongs to God and the interpreters, to be carried out by his relatives. Regardless, he should be buried alone in a wild, nameless place, without a name or monument. If an animal kills a person, not in a public contest, it should be prosecuted for murder, and after being found guilty, it should be killed and removed from the borders. Also, inanimate objects that cause death, except for natural disasters like lightning and other divine occurrences, should be disposed of outside the borders. If a dead body is discovered and the murderer is unknown, a trial will still take place, and the unknown murderer will be warned not to enter temples or the land; if caught, he will be executed, and his body will be discarded. A person is justified in taking the life of a burglar, mugger, or anyone who assaults a woman or youth; they may also kill in defense of their father, mother, brother, wife, or other relatives.
The nurture and education which are necessary to the existence of men have been considered, and the punishment of acts of violence which destroy life. There remain maiming, wounding, and the like, which admit of a similar division into voluntary and involuntary. About this class of actions the preamble shall be: Whereas men would be like wild beasts unless they obeyed the laws, the first duty of citizens is the care of the public interests, which unite and preserve states, as private interests distract them. A man may know what is for the public good, but if he have absolute power, human nature will impel him to seek pleasure instead of virtue, and so darkness will come over his soul and over the state. If he had mind, he would have no need of law; for mind is the perfection of law. But such a freeman, 'whom the truth makes free,' is hardly to be found; and therefore law and order are necessary, which are the second-best, and they regulate things as they exist in part only, but cannot take in the whole. For actions have innumerable characteristics, which must be partly determined by the law and partly left to the judge. The judge must determine the fact; and to him also the punishment must sometimes be left. What shall the law prescribe, and what shall be left to the judge? A city is unfortunate in which the tribunals are either secret and speechless, or, what is worse, noisy and public, when the people, as if they were in a theatre, clap and hoot the various speakers. Such courts a legislator would rather not have; but if he is compelled to have them, he will speak distinctly, and leave as little as possible to their discretion. But where the courts are good, and presided over by well-trained judges, the penalties to be inflicted may be in a great measure left to them; and as there are to be good courts among our colonists, we need not determine beforehand the exact proportion of the penalty and the crime. Returning, then, to our legislator, let us indite a law about wounding, which shall run as follows:—He who wounds with intent to kill, and fails in his object, shall be tried as if he had succeeded. But since God has favoured both him and his victim, instead of being put to death, he shall be allowed to go into exile and take his property with him, the damage due to the sufferer having been previously estimated by the court, which shall be the same as would have tried the case if death had ensued. If a child should intentionally wound a parent, or a servant his master, or brother or sister wound brother or sister with malice prepense, the penalty shall be death. If a husband or wife wound one another with intent to kill, the penalty which is inflicted upon them shall be perpetual exile; and if they have young children, the guardians shall take care of them and administer their property as if they were orphans. If they have no children, their kinsmen male and female shall meet, and after a consultation with the priests and guardians of the law, shall appoint an heir of the house; for the house and family belong to the state, being a 5040th portion of the whole. And the state is bound to preserve her families happy and holy; therefore, when the heir of a house has committed a capital offence, or is in exile for life, the house is to be purified, and then the kinsmen of the house and the guardians of the law are to find out a family which has a good name and in which there are many sons, and introduce one of them to be the heir and priest of the house. He shall assume the fathers and ancestors of the family, while the first son dies in dishonour and his name is blotted out.
The care and education essential for the existence of people have been discussed, along with the punishment for violent acts that take lives. Next, we have cases of injury and harm, which can also be split into voluntary and involuntary. The introduction to this category of actions should be: Since people would behave like wild animals without following the laws, the primary responsibility of citizens is to look after the public interest, which binds and sustains societies, while private interests often lead to distractions. A person might understand what is good for the public, but if given absolute power, human nature will lead him to chase pleasure rather than virtue, resulting in moral decay for both himself and the state. If he were truly wise, he wouldn't require laws, as wisdom embodies the essence of law. However, such a truly free person, "whom the truth sets free," is hard to find; thus, laws and order are essential, serving as a second-best option. They can only partially regulate society, as actions possess countless traits that must be determined by law and also left to the discretion of the judge. The judge must ascertain the facts, and at times, also decide on the punishment. What should the law specify, and what should be left to the judge? A city suffers when its courts are either hidden and silent or, even worse, loud and public, where the people react like an audience in a theater, applauding or booing speakers. A legislator wouldn't want such courts; but if he must have them, he will be precise and minimize their discretion. In contrast, where the courts are well-run and presided over by skilled judges, they may have substantial authority concerning penalties; and since we ought to have decent courts among our settlers, we need not define the exact ratio of penalty to crime in advance. Now, returning to our lawmaker, let's draft a law regarding injuries that states: Anyone who intentionally injures someone with the intent to kill but fails will be tried as if they succeeded. However, because both he and his victim have been spared by divine grace, instead of facing execution, he may go into exile with his property, with the victim’s damages assessed by the court as if death had occurred. If a child intentionally injures a parent, or a servant injures a master, or a sibling harms another sibling with malice, the punishment will be death. If spouses harm each other with intent to kill, both will face lifelong exile; if they have young children, guardians will care for them and manage their property as if they were orphans. If there are no children, family members will gather, and after consulting with priests and law guardians, they will appoint an heir for the household; for the home and family are part of the state, constituting one 5040th of it all. The state is responsible for keeping families happy and virtuous; hence, if a family heir commits a serious crime or is exiled for life, the home must be purified. Subsequently, the relatives and law guardians should identify a family with a good reputation and many sons to introduce one of them as the new heir and priest of the house. He will take on the names of his predecessors while the original heir will be condemned to dishonor, with their name erased.
Some actions are intermediate between the voluntary and involuntary. Those done from anger are of this class. If a man wound another in anger, let him pay double the damage, if the injury is curable; or fourfold, if curable, and at the same time dishonourable; and fourfold, if incurable; the amount is to be assessed by the judges. If the wounded person is rendered incapable of military service, the injurer, besides the other penalties, shall serve in his stead, or be liable to a suit for refusing to serve. If brother wounds brother, then their parents and kindred, of both sexes, shall meet and judge the crime. The damages shall be assessed by the parents; and if the amount fixed by them is disputed, an appeal shall be made to the male kindred; or in the last resort to the guardians of the law. Parents who wound their children are to be tried by judges of at least sixty years of age, who have children of their own; and they are to determine whether death, or some lesser punishment, is to be inflicted upon them—no relatives are to take part in the trial. If a slave in anger smite a freeman, he is to be delivered up by his master to the injured person. If the master suspect collusion between the slave and the injured person, he may bring the matter to trial: and if he fail he shall pay three times the injury; or if he obtain a conviction, the contriver of the conspiracy shall be liable to an action for kidnapping. He who wounds another unintentionally shall only pay for the actual harm done.
Some actions fall somewhere between being voluntary and involuntary. Actions taken out of anger belong to this category. If someone injures another person in a fit of anger, they should pay double the damages if the injury can be healed; or four times the amount if it's not only curable but also shameful; and four times if the injury is permanent; this amount will be determined by the judges. If the person who was injured can no longer serve in the military, the one who caused the injury, in addition to other penalties, must serve in their place or face a lawsuit for refusing to serve. If one brother hurts another, their parents and relatives, from both sides, will come together to judge the situation. The parents will set the damages, and if there's a disagreement about the amount they decide, it can be appealed to the male relatives; ultimately, it can go to the guardians of the law. Parents who harm their children will be judged by judges who are at least sixty years old and have children themselves; they will decide whether the punishment should be death or something less severe—no relatives are allowed to participate in the trial. If a slave, in anger, strikes a free person, the slave must be handed over by their master to the injured party. If the master thinks there was a conspiracy between the slave and the injured person, they can take the case to trial; if they lose, they must pay three times the injury; if they win, the person who plotted the conspiracy could be charged with kidnapping. If someone accidentally injures another person, they only need to pay for the actual damage caused.
In all outrages and acts of violence, the elder is to be more regarded than the younger. An injury done by a younger man to an elder is abominable and hateful; but the younger man who is struck by an elder is to bear with him patiently, considering that he who is twenty years older is loco parentis, and remembering the reverence which is due to the Gods who preside over birth. Let him keep his hands, too, from the stranger; instead of taking upon himself to chastise him when he is insolent, he shall bring him before the wardens of the city, who shall examine into the case, and if they find him guilty, shall scourge him with as many blows as he has given; or if he be innocent, they shall warn and threaten his accuser. When an equal strikes an equal, whether an old man an old man, or a young man a young man, let them use only their fists and have no weapons. He who being above forty years of age commences a fight, or retaliates, shall be counted mean and base.
In all cases of wrongdoing and violence, the elder should be respected more than the younger. If a younger person harms an elder, it is disgusting and hateful; but if a younger person is struck by an elder, they should endure it patiently, keeping in mind that the one who is twenty years older is in a parental role, and remembering the respect owed to the Gods overseeing birth. The younger person should also avoid engaging with strangers; instead of taking it upon themselves to punish them when they are rude, they should bring the matter to the city officials, who will investigate the situation. If the stranger is found guilty, they will be punished with as many blows as they dealt; if they are innocent, the accuser will be warned and reprimanded. When two equals confront each other, whether both elderly or both young, they should limit themselves to using their fists and refrain from weapons. Anyone over forty who starts a fight or retaliates will be considered petty and low.
To this preamble, let the law be added: If a man smite another who is his elder by twenty years or more, let the bystander, in case he be older than the combatants, part them; or if he be younger than the person struck, or of the same age with him, let him defend him as he would a father or brother; and let the striker be brought to trial, and if convicted imprisoned for a year or more at the discretion of the judges. If a stranger smite one who is his elder by twenty years or more, he shall be imprisoned for two years, and a metic, in like case, shall suffer three years' imprisonment. He who is standing by and gives no assistance, shall be punished according to his class in one of four penalties—a mina, fifty, thirty, twenty drachmas. The generals and other superior officers of the army shall form the court which tries this class of offences.
To this introduction, let the law be added: If a person hits another who is at least twenty years older, a bystander who is older than the fighters should separate them; if he’s younger than the person being hit or the same age, he should defend him as he would a father or brother. The attacker will be taken to trial, and if found guilty, he may be imprisoned for a year or more at the judges' discretion. If a stranger hits someone who is at least twenty years older, he will be imprisoned for two years, and a resident alien in the same situation will face three years’ imprisonment. Anyone present who does not help will be punished according to their social status with one of four fines—a mina, fifty, thirty, or twenty drachmas. The generals and other senior officers of the army will serve as the court for these types of offenses.
Laws are made to instruct the good, and in the hope that there may be no need of them; also to control the bad, whose hardness of heart will not be hindered from crime. The uttermost penalty will fall upon those who lay violent hands upon a parent, having no fear of the Gods above, or of the punishments which will pursue them in the world below. They are too wise in their own conceits to believe in such things: wherefore the tortures which await them in another life must be anticipated in this. Let the law be as follows:—
Laws are created to guide the good with the hope that they won't need them, and to keep the bad in check, as their hardened hearts won't stop them from committing crimes. The harshest penalties will be imposed on those who violently harm a parent, showing no fear of the gods above or the punishments that will follow them in the afterlife. They think they are too clever to believe in such consequences, so the suffering that awaits them in the next life must be faced in this one. Let the law be as follows:—
If a man, being in his right mind, dare to smite his father and mother, or his grandfather and grandmother, let the passer-by come to the rescue; and if he be a metic or stranger who comes to the rescue, he shall have the first place at the games; or if he do not come to the rescue, he shall be a perpetual exile. Let the citizen in the like case be praised or blamed, and the slave receive freedom or a hundred stripes. The wardens of the agora, the city, or the country, as the case may be, shall see to the execution of the law. And he who is an inhabitant of the same place and is present shall come to the rescue, or he shall fall under a curse.
If a person, in their right mind, dares to hit their father or mother, or their grandparents, bystanders should step in to help; and if the person who intervenes is a foreigner or stranger, they will take first place in the games; but if they do not intervene, they will be exiled forever. Citizens in the same situation will either be praised or blamed, and slaves will be given freedom or receive a hundred lashes. The officials of the marketplace, the city, or the countryside, depending on the situation, will ensure the law is enforced. Anyone who lives in the same area and is present must help, or they will face a curse.
If a man be convicted of assaulting his parents, let him be banished for ever from the city into the country, and let him abstain from all sacred rites; and if he do not abstain, let him be punished by the wardens of the country; and if he return to the city, let him be put to death. If any freeman consort with him, let him be purified before he returns to the city. If a slave strike a freeman, whether citizen or stranger, let the bystander be obliged to seize and deliver him into the hands of the injured person, who may inflict upon him as many blows as he pleases, and shall then return him to his master. The law will be as follows:—The slave who strikes a freeman shall be bound by his master, and not set at liberty without the consent of the person whom he has injured. All these laws apply to women as well as to men.
If a man is found guilty of assaulting his parents, he should be banished permanently from the city to the countryside, and he must avoid all sacred ceremonies; if he doesn’t stay away, he will be punished by the local authorities. If he returns to the city, he should be put to death. If any free person associates with him, they must undergo a purification before coming back to the city. If a slave hits a free person, whether they are a citizen or a foreigner, bystanders are required to capture and hand him over to the injured person, who can then hit him as many times as they want before returning him to his master. The law will state that a slave who strikes a free person must be restrained by their master and cannot be freed without the injured person's approval. All these laws apply equally to women and men.
BOOK X. The greatest wrongs arise out of youthful insolence, and the greatest of all are committed against public temples; they are in the second degree great when private rites and sepulchres are insulted; in the third degree, when committed against parents; in the fourth degree, when they are done against the authority or property of the rulers; in the fifth degree, when the rights of individuals are violated. Most of these offences have been already considered; but there remains the question of admonition and punishment of offences against the Gods. Let the admonition be in the following terms:—No man who ever intentionally did or said anything impious, had a true belief in the existence of the Gods; but either he thought that there were no Gods, or that they did not care about men, or that they were easily appeased by sacrifices and prayers. 'What shall we say or do to such persons?' My good sir, let us first hear the jests which they in their superiority will make upon us. 'What will they say?' Probably something of this kind:—'Strangers you are right in thinking that some of us do not believe in the existence of the Gods; while others assert that they do not care for us, and others that they are propitiated by prayers and offerings. But we want you to argue with us before you threaten; you should prove to us by reasonable evidence that there are Gods, and that they are too good to be bribed. Poets, priests, prophets, rhetoricians, even the best of them, speak to us of atoning for evil, and not of avoiding it. From legislators who profess to be gentle we ask for instruction, which may, at least, have the persuasive power of truth, if no other.' What have you to say? 'Well, there is no difficulty in proving the being of the Gods. The sun, and earth, and stars, moving in their courses, the recurring seasons, furnish proofs of their existence; and there is the general opinion of mankind.' I fear that the unbelievers—not that I care for their opinion—will despise us. You are not aware that their impiety proceeds, not from sensuality, but from ignorance taking the garb of wisdom. 'What do you mean?' At Athens there are tales current both in prose and verse of a kind which are not tolerated in a well-regulated state like yours. The oldest of them relate the origin of the world, and the birth and life of the Gods. These narratives have a bad influence on family relations; but as they are old we will let them pass, and consider another kind of tales, invented by the wisdom of a younger generation, who, if any one argues for the existence of the Gods and claims that the stars have a divine being, insist that these are mere earth and stones, which can have no care of human things, and that all theology is a cooking up of words. Now what course ought we to take? Shall we suppose some impious man to charge us with assuming the existence of the Gods, and make a defence? Or shall we leave the preamble and go on to the laws? 'There is no hurry, and we have often said that the shorter and worse method should not be preferred to the longer and better. The proof that there are Gods who are good, and the friends of justice, is the best preamble of all our laws.' Come, let us talk with the impious, who have been brought up from their infancy in the belief of religion, and have heard their own fathers and mothers praying for them and talking with the Gods as if they were absolutely convinced of their existence; who have seen mankind prostrate in prayer at the rising and setting of the sun and moon and at every turn of fortune, and have dared to despise and disbelieve all this. Can we keep our temper with them, when they compel us to argue on such a theme? We must; or like them we shall go mad, though with more reason. Let us select one of them and address him as follows:
BOOK X. The biggest wrongs come from youthful arrogance, and the most severe ones are against public temples; they are somewhat serious when private rites and burial sites are disrespected; they are less serious when they're aimed at parents; even less so when they're directed against authority or the property of leaders; and least serious when individual rights are violated. Most of these offenses have already been addressed; however, we still need to discuss how to advise and punish those who disrespect the Gods. The advice should be this: no one who has ever intentionally done or said anything disrespectful has genuinely believed in the existence of the Gods; instead, they either think there are no Gods, or that the Gods are indifferent to humans, or that they can be easily satisfied with sacrifices and prayers. 'What should we say or do to such individuals?' My friend, let's first hear the mockery they will throw at us. 'What will they say?' Likely something like this: 'Strangers, you’re right to believe that some of us doubt the existence of the Gods; others claim the Gods don’t care about us, and yet others think they can be won over with prayers and offerings. But we’d like you to discuss this with us before making threats; you need to show us clear evidence that the Gods exist and that they are too good to be swayed by gifts. Poets, priests, prophets, orators, even the best among them, tell us about making up for wrongdoing, not about avoiding it altogether. From lawmakers who claim to be gentle, we seek instructions that at least have the persuasive power of truth, if nothing more.' What do you say to that? 'Well, proving the existence of the Gods isn’t difficult. The sun, earth, and stars moving in their paths, the changing seasons, provide evidence of their existence; and so does the general consensus of humanity.' I worry that the skeptics—not that I care about their views—will look down on us. You may not realize that their disrespect comes not from indulgence but from ignorance disguised as wisdom. 'What do you mean?' In Athens, there are stories in both prose and poetry that wouldn’t be accepted in a well-ordered society like yours. The oldest tales explain the origin of the world and the lives of the Gods. These stories negatively affect family dynamics; however, since they are old, we'll let them be and focus on another type of narrative from a newer generation, who, when someone argues for the existence of the Gods and claims that the stars possess a divine essence, insist that these are nothing but earth and stones, indifferent to human affairs, and that all theology is just wordplay. What should we do next? Should we let an impious person accuse us of assuming the Gods exist and attempt a defense? Or should we skip the introduction and proceed to the laws? 'There’s no rush, and we’ve often mentioned that we shouldn’t choose a shorter, worse method over a longer, better one. The proof of good Gods, who are allies of justice, is the best introduction to all our laws.' Now, let’s engage with the impious, who have grown up believing in religion, having heard their own parents praying for them and communicating with the Gods as if they were completely convinced of their existence; who have witnessed people bowing in prayer at the sunrise and sunset, and in times of fortune, yet still dared to dismiss and doubt all of this. Can we remain calm with them, when they force us to debate such topics? We must; otherwise, like them, we will lose our minds, though for more justifiable reasons. Let's choose one of them and address him as follows:
O my son, you are young; time and experience will make you change many of your opinions. Do not be hasty in forming a conclusion about the divine nature; and let me mention to you a fact which I know. You and your friends are not the first or the only persons who have had these notions about the Gods. There are always a considerable number who are infected by them: I have known many myself, and can assure you that no one who was an unbeliever in his youth ever persisted till he was old in denying the existence of the Gods. The two other opinions, first, that the Gods exist and have no care of men, secondly, that they care for men, but may be propitiated by sacrifices and prayers, may indeed last through life in a few instances, but even this is not common. I would beg of you to be patient, and learn the truth of the legislator and others; in the mean time abstain from impiety. 'So far, our discourse has gone well.'
My son, you’re young; time and experience will change many of your beliefs. Don’t rush to conclusions about the divine; let me share something I know. You and your friends aren’t the first or only ones with these ideas about the Gods. There are always a good number of people who share them: I’ve known many myself, and I can assure you that no one who doubted the Gods in their youth continued to deny their existence into old age. The two other beliefs, first that the Gods exist but don’t care about humans, and second that they care about humans but can be won over with sacrifices and prayers, may stick with a few people for their entire lives, but that’s rare. I urge you to be patient and seek the truth from the lawmakers and others; in the meantime, avoid impiety. 'So far, our discourse has gone well.'
I will now speak of a strange doctrine, which is regarded by many as the crown of philosophy. They affirm that all things come into being either by art or nature or chance, and that the greater things are done by nature and chance, and the lesser things by art, which receiving from nature the greater creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are termed works of art. Their meaning is that fire, water, earth, and air all exist by nature and chance, and not by art; and that out of these, according to certain chance affinities of opposites, the sun, the moon, the stars, and the earth have been framed, not by any action of mind, but by nature and chance only. Thus, in their opinion, the heaven and earth were created, as well as the animals and plants. Art came later, and is of mortal birth; by her power were invented certain images and very partial imitations of the truth, of which kind are the creations of musicians and painters: but they say that there are other arts which combine with nature, and have a deeper truth, such as medicine, husbandry, gymnastic. Also the greater part of politics they imagine to co-operate with nature, but in a less degree, having more of art, while legislation is declared by them to be wholly a work of art. 'How do you mean?' In the first place, they say that the Gods exist neither by nature nor by art, but by the laws of states, which are different in different countries; and that virtue is one thing by nature and another by convention; and that justice is altogether conventional, made by law, and having authority for the moment only. This is repeated to young men by sages and poets, and leads to impiety, and the pretended life according to nature and in disobedience to law; for nobody believes the Gods to be such as the law affirms. 'How true! and oh! how injurious to states and to families!' But then, what should the lawgiver do? Should he stand up in the state and threaten mankind with the severest penalties if they persist in their unbelief, while he makes no attempt to win them by persuasion? 'Nay, Stranger, the legislator ought never to weary of trying to persuade the world that there are Gods; and he should declare that law and art exist by nature.' Yes, Cleinias; but these are difficult and tedious questions. 'And shall our patience, which was not exhausted in the enquiry about music or drink, fail now that we are discoursing about the Gods? There may be a difficulty in framing laws, but when written down they remain, and time and diligence will make them clear; if they are useful there would be neither reason nor religion in rejecting them on account of their length.' Most true. And the general spread of unbelief shows that the legislator should do something in vindication of the laws, when they are being undermined by bad men. 'He should.' You agree with me, Cleinias, that the heresy consists in supposing earth, air, fire, and water to be the first of all things. These the heretics call nature, conceiving them to be prior to the soul. 'I agree.' You would further agree that natural philosophy is the source of this impiety—the study appears to be pursued in a wrong way. 'In what way do you mean?' The error consists in transposing first and second causes. They do not see that the soul is before the body, and before all other things, and the author and ruler of them all. And if the soul is prior to the body, then the things of the soul are prior to the things of the body. In other words, opinion, attention, mind, art, law, are prior to sensible qualities; and the first and greater works of creation are the results of art and mind, whereas the works of nature, as they are improperly termed, are secondary and subsequent. 'Why do you say "improperly"?' Because when they speak of nature they seem to mean the first creative power. But if the soul is first, and not fire and air, then the soul above all things may be said to exist by nature. And this can only be on the supposition that the soul is prior to the body. Shall we try to prove that it is so? 'By all means.' I fear that the greenness of our argument will ludicrously contrast with the ripeness of our ages. But as we must go into the water, and the stream is strong, I will first attempt to cross by myself, and if I arrive at the bank, you shall follow. Remembering that you are unaccustomed to such discussions, I will ask and answer the questions myself, while you listen in safety. But first I must pray the Gods to assist at the demonstration of their own existence—if ever we are to call upon them, now is the time. Let me hold fast to the rope, and enter into the depths: Shall I put the question to myself in this form?—Are all things at rest, and is nothing in motion? or are some things in motion, and some things at rest? 'The latter.' And do they move and rest, some in one place, some in more? 'Yes.' There may be (1) motion in the same place, as in revolution on an axis, which is imparted swiftly to the larger and slowly to the lesser circle; and there may be motion in different places, having sometimes (2) one centre of motion and sometimes (3) more. (4) When bodies in motion come against other bodies which are at rest, they are divided by them, and (5) when they are caught between other bodies coming from opposite directions they unite with them; and (6) they grow by union and (7) waste by dissolution while their constitution remains the same, but are (8) destroyed when their constitution fails. There is a growth from one dimension to two, and from a second to a third, which then becomes perceptible to sense; this process is called generation, and the opposite, destruction. We have now enumerated all possible motions with the exception of two. 'What are they?' Just the two with which our enquiry is concerned; for our enquiry relates to the soul. There is one kind of motion which is only able to move other things; there is another which can move itself as well, working in composition and decomposition, by increase and diminution, by generation and destruction. 'Granted.' (9) That which moves and is moved by another is the ninth kind of motion; (10) that which is self-moved and moves others is the tenth. And this tenth kind of motion is the mightiest, and is really the first, and is followed by that which was improperly called the ninth. 'How do you mean?' Must not that which is moved by others finally depend upon that which is moved by itself? Nothing can be affected by any transition prior to self-motion. Then the first and eldest principle of motion, whether in things at rest or not at rest, will be the principle of self-motion; and that which is moved by others and can move others will be the second. 'True.' Let me ask another question:
I’m going to talk about a strange idea that many consider the pinnacle of philosophy. They argue that everything comes into existence through art, nature, or chance, with the bigger things arising from nature and chance, while the smaller things come from art, which takes the greater creations from nature and shapes them into lesser works that we call art. They believe that fire, water, earth, and air exist through nature and chance, not art; and that the sun, moon, stars, and earth were formed not by any conscious effort but purely through nature and chance. So, in their view, heaven and earth, along with plants and animals, were created this way. Art developed later and is a human invention; through it, certain images and partial imitations of truth were created, like the works of musicians and painters. However, they argue that there are other arts that work together with nature and reveal a deeper truth, such as medicine, agriculture, and athletics. They believe that much of politics also aligns with nature, albeit less so as it involves more art, while they see legislation as completely an art form. 'What do you mean?' Firstly, they claim that the gods exist neither by nature nor art, but through state laws, which differ across countries; and that virtue is one thing by nature and something else by social agreement; justice is entirely a social construct, made by law, holding authority only for the moment. This idea is taught to young people by wise men and poets, leading to a lack of respect for the gods and an imagined life based on nature that disregards law, because no one believes the portrayal of the gods that the law provides. 'How true! What a harm to societies and families!' But what should lawmakers do? Should they stand up in society and threaten people with harsh penalties for their disbelief without trying to persuade them? 'No, Stranger, the legislator should never stop trying to persuade people that gods exist, and he should state that law and art arise from nature.' Yes, Cleinias; but these are complicated and tedious issues. 'Should our patience, which held up during discussions about music or drink, fail now that we’re talking about the gods? There may be challenges in creating laws, but once written, they endure, and time and effort will clarify them; if they are beneficial, there’s no reason or sense in discarding them just because they’re lengthy.' Absolutely. And the widespread disbelief indicates that lawmakers should address the erosion of laws caused by bad individuals. 'They should.' You agree with me, Cleinias, that the heresy lies in believing that earth, air, fire, and water are the first things. The heretics refer to these as nature, thinking they come before the soul. 'I agree.' You also agree that natural philosophy is the root of this disbelief—the study seems to be approached incorrectly. 'In what way?' The mistake lies in confusing first and second causes. They fail to recognize that the soul precedes the body and everything else, serving as their source and ruler. If the soul is before the body, then the things of the soul take precedence over the things of the body. In short, opinion, attention, mind, art, and law take priority over physical qualities; and the initial and greatest acts of creation are the results of art and mind, whereas nature’s works, as they’re wrongly labeled, are secondary and subsequent. 'Why do you say "wrongly"?' Because when they talk about nature, they tend to mean the first creative force. But if the soul is first, and not fire or air, then the soul can be said to exist by nature above all else. And this can only be true if we assume that the soul is prior to the body. Shall we try to prove that? 'Absolutely.' I worry that our argument may seem immature compared to our ages. But since we need to dive in, and the current is strong, I will first attempt to cross alone, and if I reach the bank, you can follow. Acknowledging that you’re not used to such discussions, I will ask and answer the questions myself while you listen safely. First, I must pray to the gods for help in proving their own existence—if there’s ever a time to call on them, it’s now. Let me grab hold of the rope and dive into the deep water: Should I ask myself this—Are all things at rest, or is something in motion? Or are some things in motion while others are still? 'The latter.' Do they move and stay still, some in one place and some in several? 'Yes.' There can be (1) motion in the same place, like spinning on an axis, which transfers quickly to the larger circle and slowly to the smaller; and there can be motion in different places, sometimes (2) having one center of motion and at times (3) more. (4) When moving bodies encounter stationary bodies, they are affected by them, and (5) when caught between others coming from different directions, they merge with them; (6) they grow through this union, and (7) diminish through separation, while their makeup stays the same, but they are (8) destroyed when their structure fails. There’s a growth from one dimension to two, and from a second to a third, which then becomes perceptible; this process is called generation, and its opposite is destruction. Now we’ve covered all possible types of motion except for two. 'What are they?' Just the two that relate to our inquiry, which focuses on the soul. One kind of motion can only move other things; the other can move itself as well, engaging in combining and breaking down, through increasing and decreasing, and through creating and destroying. 'Agreed.' (9) The motion that is moved by another is the ninth kind; (10) the one that moves itself and moves others is the tenth. And this tenth kind of motion is the most powerful, positioned as the first, and leads to what was wrongly called the ninth. 'What do you mean?' Isn’t it true that what is moved by others ultimately depends on what moves itself? Nothing can be influenced by any change prior to self-motion. Hence, the primary and original principle of motion, whether in still things or moving ones, will be self-motion; and that which is moved by others and moves others will be second. 'True.' Let me ask another question:
What is the name which is given to self-motion when manifested in any material substance? 'Life.' And soul too is life? 'Very good.' And are there not three kinds of knowledge—a knowledge (1) of the essence, (2) of the definition, (3) of the name? And sometimes the name leads us to ask the definition, sometimes the definition to ask the name. For example, number can be divided into equal parts, and when thus divided is termed even, and the definition of even and the word 'even' refer to the same thing. 'Very true.' And what is the definition of the thing which is named 'soul'? Must we not reply, 'The self-moved'? And have we not proved that the self-moved is the source of motion in other things? 'Yes.' And the motion which is not self-moved will be inferior to this? 'True.' And if so, we shall be right in saying that the soul is prior and superior to the body, and the body by nature subject and inferior to the soul? 'Quite right.' And we agreed that if the soul was prior to the body, the things of the soul were prior to the things of the body? 'Certainly.' And therefore desires, and manners, and thoughts, and true opinions, and recollections, are prior to the length and breadth and force of bodies. 'To be sure.' In the next place, we acknowledge that the soul is the cause of good and evil, just and unjust, if we suppose her to be the cause of all things? 'Certainly.' And the soul which orders all things must also order the heavens? 'Of course.' One soul or more? More; for less than two are inconceivable, one good, the other evil. 'Most true.' The soul directs all things by her movements, which we call will, consideration, attention, deliberation, opinion true and false, joy, sorrow, courage, fear, hatred, love, and similar affections. These are the primary movements, and they receive the secondary movements of bodies, and guide all things to increase and diminution, separation and union, and to all the qualities which accompany them—cold, hot, heavy, light, hard, soft, white, black, sweet, bitter; these and other such qualities the soul, herself a goddess, uses, when truly receiving the divine mind she leads all things rightly to their happiness; but under the impulse of folly she works out an opposite result. For the controller of heaven and earth and the circle of the world is either the wise and good soul, or the foolish and vicious soul, working in them. 'What do you mean?' If we say that the whole course and motion of heaven and earth is in accordance with the workings and reasonings of mind, clearly the best soul must have the care of the heaven, and guide it along that better way. 'True.' But if the heavens move wildly and disorderly, then they must be under the guidance of the evil soul. 'True again.' What is the nature of the movement of the soul? We must not suppose that we can see and know the soul with our bodily eyes, any more than we can fix them on the midday sun; it will be safer to look at an image only. 'How do you mean?' Let us find among the ten kinds of motion an image of the motion of the mind. You remember, as we said, that all things are divided into two classes; and some of them were moved and some at rest. 'Yes.' And of those which were moved, some were moved in the same place, others in more places than one. 'Just so.' The motion which was in one place was circular, like the motion of a spherical body; and such a motion in the same place, and in the same relations, is an excellent image of the motion of mind. 'Very true.' The motion of the other sort, which has no fixed place or manner or relation or order or proportion, is akin to folly and nonsense. 'Very true.' After what has been said, it is clear that, since the soul carries round all things, some soul which is either very good or the opposite carries round the circumference of heaven. But that soul can be no other than the best. Again, the soul carries round the sun, moon, and stars, and if the sun has a soul, then either the soul of the sun is within and moves the sun as the human soul moves the body; or, secondly, the sun is contained in some external air or fire, which the soul provides and through which she operates; or, thirdly, the course of the sun is guided by the soul acting in a wonderful manner without a body. 'Yes, in one of those ways the soul must guide all things.' And this soul of the sun, which is better than the sun, whether driving him in a chariot or employing any other agency, is by every man called a God? 'Yes, by every man who has any sense.' And of the seasons, stars, moon, and year, in like manner, it may be affirmed that the soul or souls from which they derive their excellence are divine; and without insisting on the manner of their working, no one can deny that all things are full of Gods. 'No one.' And now let us offer an alternative to him who denies that there are Gods. Either he must show that the soul is not the origin of all things, or he must live for the future in the belief that there are Gods.
What do we call self-motion when it shows up in any material substance? 'Life.' And is the soul also considered life? 'Exactly.' Aren't there three types of knowledge—a knowledge (1) of the essence, (2) of the definition, (3) of the name? Sometimes the name prompts us to ask for the definition, and sometimes the definition leads us to ask for the name. For example, a number can be split into equal parts, and when split this way, it’s called even, and both the concept of even and the term 'even' refer to the same thing. 'That's true.' So what is the definition of what we call the 'soul'? Shouldn't we answer, 'The self-moved'? And haven't we shown that the self-moved is the source of motion in other things? 'Yes.' And isn’t it true that the motion which isn’t self-moved is inferior to this? 'That's right.' Therefore, it’s correct to say that the soul is prior and superior to the body, with the body being naturally subject to and inferior to the soul? 'Absolutely.' And we agreed that if the soul comes before the body, then the matters of the soul come before those of the body? 'Certainly.' Hence, desires, behaviors, thoughts, true opinions, and memories are prior to physical attributes like length, breadth, and strength. 'Definitely.' Next, we acknowledge that if we assume the soul is the cause of everything, then it is also the cause of good and evil, justice and injustice? 'Absolutely.' And the soul that organizes everything must also organize the heavens? 'Of course.' Is there one soul or multiple? Multiple, because having fewer than two is unthinkable, one being good and the other evil. 'Very true.' The soul directs everything through movements that we term will, thought, attention, deliberation, true and false opinions, joy, sorrow, courage, fear, hatred, love, and other similar feelings. These are the primary movements, and they influence secondary movements of bodies, guiding everything towards increase and decrease, separation and unity, along with all the qualities that accompany them—cold, hot, heavy, light, hard, soft, white, black, sweet, bitter; these and other such qualities are utilized by the soul, which is divine in its nature, as it truly receives the divine mind and guides everything correctly towards happiness; but under the influence of folly, it can lead to an opposite outcome. The force that governs heaven, earth, and the entire cosmos must either be the wise and good soul or the foolish and wicked soul working through them. 'What do you mean?' If we say that the entire movement and course of heaven and earth follows the workings and reasoning of mind, it’s clear that the best soul must oversee the heavens and guide them along a better path. 'That’s true.' But if the heavens move chaotically and disorderly, then they are likely under the influence of an evil soul. 'That’s true again.' What is the nature of the soul's movement? We mustn’t think we can see and know the soul with our physical eyes, just like we can’t stare directly at the midday sun; it’s safer to view it only as an image. 'How do you mean?' Let’s find an image of the mind's motion among the ten types of motion. Remember, as we said, everything falls into two categories: some are moving and some are at rest. 'Yes.' And of those that are moving, some stay in the same place while others move through multiple places. 'Exactly.' The motion that happens in one location is circular, like that of a sphere; this kind of motion in one location and in its own relations serves as a perfect image of the mind's motion. 'Very true.' The other kind of motion, which doesn’t have a fixed location, manner, relation, order, or proportion, resembles folly and senselessness. 'Very true.' From what has been said, it’s evident that since the soul moves everything, some soul, whether very good or its opposite, must be moving the circumference of heaven. But that soul must be the best. Additionally, the soul moves the sun, moon, and stars, and if the sun has a soul, then either the soul of the sun is internal and moves it like the human soul moves a body; or, secondly, the sun is contained in some external air or fire, which the soul provides and operates through; or, thirdly, the path of the sun is guided by the soul acting in a remarkable way without a body. 'Yes, in one of those ways the soul must guide all things.' And this soul of the sun, which is superior to the sun, whether driving it in a chariot or using some other method, is referred to as God by every person of sense. 'Yes, by anyone with sense.' Similarly, for the seasons, stars, moon, and year, it can also be claimed that the soul or souls from which they derive their excellence are divine; without insisting on the way they function, no one can deny that everything is filled with Gods. 'No one can.' And now let’s present an alternative to anyone who denies that there are Gods. They must either prove that the soul is not the origin of all things or choose to believe in Gods in the future.
Next, as to the man who believes in the Gods, but refuses to acknowledge that they take care of human things—let him too have a word of admonition. 'Best of men,' we will say to him, 'some affinity to the Gods leads you to honour them and to believe in them. But you have heard the happiness of wicked men sung by poets and admired by the world, and this has drawn you away from your natural piety. Or you have seen the wicked growing old in prosperity, and leaving great offices to their children; or you have watched the tyrant succeeding in his career of crime; and considering all these things you have been led to believe in an irrational way that the Gods take no care of human affairs. That your error may not increase, I will endeavour to purify your soul.' Do you, Megillus and Cleinias, make answer for the youth, and when we come to a difficulty, I will carry you over the water as I did before. 'Very good.' He will easily be convinced that the Gods care for the small as well as the great; for he heard what was said of their goodness and of their having all things under their care. 'He certainly heard.' Then now let us enquire what is meant by the virtue of the Gods. To possess mind belongs to virtue, and the contrary to vice. 'That is what we say.' And is not courage a part of virtue, and cowardice of vice? 'Certainly.' And to the Gods we ascribe virtues; but idleness and indolence are not virtues. 'Of course not.' And is God to be conceived of as a careless, indolent fellow, such as the poet would compare to a stingless drone? 'Impossible.' Can we be right in praising any one who cares for great matters and leaves the small to take care of themselves? Whether God or man, he who does so, must either think the neglect of such matters to be of no consequence, or he is indolent and careless. For surely neither of them can be charged with neglect if they fail to attend to something which is beyond their power? 'Certainly not.'
Next, about the man who believes in the Gods but won't admit that they look after human affairs—let's give him a word of warning. "Best of men," we would say to him, "something about the Gods draws you to honor and believe in them. But you've heard poets sing about the happiness of wicked people, and this has led you away from your natural sense of piety. Or maybe you've seen the wicked enjoy success and pass their wealth onto their children; or you've watched a tyrant thrive in his wrongdoing; and considering all this, you've come to believe, in a misguided way, that the Gods don't care about human affairs. To help correct your misunderstanding, I will try to enlighten your soul." You, Megillus and Cleinias, respond for the young man, and when we hit a snag, I'll guide you through it as I did before. "Sounds good." He will easily be convinced that the Gods care for both the small and the great since he's heard about their goodness and how they oversee everything. "He definitely has heard that." Now, let's explore what the virtue of the Gods means. Having a mind is part of virtue, while the opposite is vice. "That's what we say." Isn't courage a part of virtue, and cowardice a part of vice? "Absolutely." We attribute virtues to the Gods, but laziness and apathy are not virtues. "Of course not." Can we really consider God as a careless, lazy figure, like a poet comparing him to a useless drone? "No way." Can we truly praise anyone who focuses on important matters while leaving the smaller ones to fend for themselves? Whether it's God or man, whoever does this must either think that neglecting those matters doesn’t matter, or they are just lazy and indifferent. Because surely, neither can be blamed for ignoring something that’s beyond their control? "Definitely not."
And now we will examine the two classes of offenders who admit that there are Gods, but say,—the one that they may be appeased, the other that they take no care of small matters: do they not acknowledge that the Gods are omnipotent and omniscient, and also good and perfect? 'Certainly.' Then they cannot be indolent, for indolence is the offspring of idleness, and idleness of cowardice, and there is no cowardice in God. 'True.' If the Gods neglect small matters, they must either know or not know that such things are not to be regarded. But of course they know that they should be regarded, and knowing, they cannot be supposed to neglect their duty, overcome by the seductions of pleasure or pain. 'Impossible.' And do not all human things share in soul, and is not man the most religious of animals and the possession of the Gods? And the Gods, who are the best of owners, will surely take care of their property, small or great. Consider further, that the greater the power of perception, the less the power of action. For it is harder to see and hear the small than the great, but easier to control them. Suppose a physician who had to cure a patient—would he ever succeed if he attended to the great and neglected the little? 'Impossible.' Is not life made up of littles?—the pilot, general, householder, statesman, all attend to small matters; and the builder will tell you that large stones do not lie well without small ones. And God is not inferior to mortal craftsmen, who in proportion to their skill are careful in the details of their work; we must not imagine the best and wisest to be a lazy good-for-nothing, who wearies of his work and hurries over small and easy matters. 'Never, never!' He who charges the Gods with neglect has been forced to admit his error; but I should like further to persuade him that the author of all has made every part for the sake of the whole, and that the smallest part has an appointed state of action or passion, and that the least action or passion of any part has a presiding minister. You, we say to him, are a minute fraction of this universe, created with a view to the whole; the world is not made for you, but you for the world; for the good artist considers the whole first, and afterwards the parts. And you are annoyed at not seeing how you and the universe are all working together for the best, so far as the laws of the common creation admit. The soul undergoes many changes from her contact with bodies; and all that the player does is to put the pieces into their right places. 'What do you mean?' I mean that God acts in the way which is simplest and easiest. Had each thing been formed without any regard to the rest, the transposition of the Cosmos would have been endless; but now there is not much trouble in the government of the world. For when the king saw the actions of the living souls and bodies, and the virtue and vice which were in them, and the indestructibility of the soul and body (although they were not eternal), he contrived so to arrange them that virtue might conquer and vice be overcome as far as possible; giving them a seat and room adapted to them, but leaving the direction of their separate actions to men's own wills, which make our characters to be what they are. 'That is very probable.' All things which have a soul possess in themselves the principle of change, and in changing move according to fate and law; natures which have undergone lesser changes move on the surface; but those which have changed utterly for the worse, sink into Hades and the infernal world. And in all great changes for good and evil which are produced either by the will of the soul or the influence of others, there is a change of place. The good soul, which has intercourse with the divine nature, passes into a holier and better place; and the evil soul, as she grows worse, changes her place for the worse. This,—as we declare to the youth who fancies that he is neglected of the Gods,—is the law of divine justice—the worse to the worse, the better to the better, like to like, in life and in death. And from this law no man will ever boast that he has escaped. Even if you say—'I am small, and will creep into the earth,' or 'I am high, and will mount to heaven'—you are not so small or so high that you shall not pay the fitting penalty, either here or in the world below. This is also the explanation of the seeming prosperity of the wicked, in whose actions as in a mirror you imagined that you saw the neglect of the Gods, not considering that they make all things contribute to the whole. And how then could you form any idea of true happiness?—If Cleinias and Megillus and I have succeeded in persuading you that you know not what you say about the Gods, God will help you; but if there is still any deficiency of proof, hear our answer to the third opponent.
And now let’s look at the two types of offenders who acknowledge the existence of Gods. One group believes they can be appeased, while the other claims the Gods don’t concern themselves with minor details. Don’t they recognize that the Gods are all-powerful, all-knowing, and also good and perfect? 'Definitely.' Then they can’t be lazy because laziness comes from idleness, and idleness stems from cowardice, which doesn’t exist in God. 'True.' If the Gods overlook minor matters, it must be either because they know or don’t know that such things aren’t important. But of course, they know that they should be important, and knowing that, they can’t be assumed to neglect their duties, regardless of temptations from pleasure or pain. 'Impossible.' And don’t all living things have a soul? Isn’t man the most spiritual of creatures, belonging to the Gods? The Gods, being the best of caretakers, will surely look after their property, whether small or large. Consider also that the greater the ability to perceive details, the less the ability to act. It’s harder to notice small things than big ones, but it’s easier to manage them. Suppose a doctor is treating a patient—would they succeed if they focused only on major issues and ignored the minor ones? 'Impossible.' Isn’t life made up of little things? The pilot, general, homeowner, and statesman all pay attention to the small details; a builder will tell you that large stones don’t fit well without smaller ones. And God isn’t any less careful than human craftsmen, who, based on their skill, pay attention to the details of their work. We shouldn’t picture the best and wisest as lazy and neglectful, rushing through small and easy tasks. 'Never, never!' Anyone who accuses the Gods of neglect has been forced to rethink their stance. However, I’d like to further convince them that the creator of all has designed every part for the sake of the whole, and the tiniest part has its specific role or purpose, with even the smallest action or feeling assigned a directive force. You, we say to him, are just a tiny fragment of this universe, created for the whole; the universe wasn’t made for you, but you were made for the universe. A good artist starts by considering the big picture before focusing on the details. And you’re frustrated because you can’t see how you and the universe are all working together for the best, as much as the laws of the shared creation allow. The soul goes through many changes from its interaction with bodies; all that the player does is properly arrange the pieces. 'What do you mean?' I mean that God acts in the simplest and most straightforward way. If everything was created without regard to the entire system, the organization of the Cosmos would be chaotic; but now, governing the world isn’t too difficult. For when the king observed the actions of living souls and bodies, their virtues and vices, and the enduring nature of the soul and body (even if they’re not eternal), he devised a way to arrange them so that virtue could prevail and vice could be minimized as much as possible, providing each with a suitable place while leaving the responsibility for their individual actions to human wills, which shape our characters. 'That seems very likely.' All things with a soul have within them the principle of change, and in changing, they move according to fate and law; those that have gone through minor changes stay on the surface; but those that have changed completely for the worse descend into Hades and the underworld. In all significant changes for the better or worse, whether due to the soul’s will or outside influence, there’s a change of location. The good soul, in contact with the divine nature, transitions into a more sacred and better place; and the evil soul, as it deteriorates, shifts to a worse one. This,—as we explain to the young person who thinks the Gods have ignored him,—is the rule of divine justice—the worse go to worse, the better go to better, like attracts like, in life and death. And no one can claim to escape this law. Even if you say—'I am small and will hide in the earth,' or 'I am great and will rise to the heavens'—you’re not so small or so great that you won't face the appropriate consequences, either here or in the afterlife. This also clarifies the apparent success of the wicked, whose actions you mistook for the Gods' neglect, not realizing that they work together for the overall good. So how could you hope to understand true happiness?—If Cleinias, Megillus, and I have managed to show you that you don’t really know what you’re talking about concerning the Gods, God will assist you; but if you still lack proof, listen to our response to the third opponent.
Enough has been said to prove that the Gods exist and care for us; that they can be propitiated, or that they receive gifts, is not to be allowed or admitted for an instant. 'Let us proceed with the argument.' Tell me, by the Gods, I say, how the Gods are to be propitiated by us? Are they not rulers, who may be compared to charioteers, pilots, perhaps generals, or physicians providing against the assaults of disease, husbandmen observing the perils of the seasons, shepherds watching their flocks? To whom shall we compare them? We acknowledged that the world is full both of good and evil, but having more of evil than of good. There is an immortal conflict going on, in which Gods and demigods are our allies, and we their property; for injustice and folly and wickedness make war in our souls upon justice and temperance and wisdom. There is little virtue to be found on earth; and evil natures fawn upon the Gods, like wild beasts upon their keepers, and believe that they can win them over by flattery and prayers. And this sin, which is termed dishonesty, is to the soul what disease is to the body, what pestilence is to the seasons, what injustice is to states. 'Quite so.' And they who maintain that the Gods can be appeased must say that they forgive the sins of men, if they are allowed to share in their spoils; as you might suppose wolves to mollify the dogs by throwing them a portion of the prey. 'That is the argument.' But let us apply our images to the Gods—are they the pilots who are won by gifts to wreck their own ships—or the charioteers who are bribed to lose the race—or the generals, or doctors, or husbandmen, who are perverted from their duty—or the dogs who are silenced by wolves? 'God forbid.' Are they not rather our best guardians; and shall we suppose them to fall short even of a moderate degree of human or even canine virtue, which will not betray justice for reward? 'Impossible.' He, then, who maintains such a doctrine, is the most blasphemous of mankind.
Enough has been said to show that the gods exist and care for us; that they can be pleased, or that they accept gifts, cannot be allowed or accepted for even a moment. "Let’s continue with the argument." Tell me, by the gods, how do we appease them? Are they not rulers, comparable to chariot drivers, pilots, maybe generals, or doctors protecting against disease, farmers aware of seasonal risks, or shepherds tending their flocks? Who can we compare them to? We recognize that the world has both good and evil, but there’s more evil than good. There is an everlasting battle happening, where gods and demigods are our allies, and we are their possessions; because injustice, foolishness, and wickedness wage war within us against justice, moderation, and wisdom. There’s little virtue on earth; and evil people flatter the gods, like wild animals toward their keepers, thinking they can win them over through flattery and prayers. This sin, called dishonesty, harms the soul like disease harms the body, like plague harms the seasons, like injustice harms societies. "That’s right." Those who claim that the gods can be appeased must believe that they forgive human sins if they are allowed to enjoy some of their spoils; as you might expect wolves to placate dogs by tossing them a piece of the kill. "That’s the argument." But if we think about the gods—are they the pilots who can be bought with gifts to deliberately sink their own ships—or the chariot drivers who can be bribed to lose the race—or the generals, or doctors, or farmers, who would neglect their duties—or the dogs made silent by wolves? "Heavens no." Aren’t they instead our best protectors? Should we assume they fall short of even a basic level of human or canine virtue, which wouldn’t betray justice for a reward? "Impossible." Therefore, anyone who upholds such a belief is the most blasphemous person alive.
And now our three points are proven; and we are agreed (1) that there are Gods, (2) that they care for men, (3) that they cannot be bribed to do injustice. I have spoken warmly, from a fear lest this impiety of theirs should lead to a perversion of life. And our warmth will not have been in vain, if we have succeeded in persuading these men to abominate themselves, and to change their ways. 'So let us hope.' Then now that the preamble is completed, we will make a proclamation commanding the impious to renounce their evil ways; and in case they refuse, the law shall be added:—If a man is guilty of impiety in word or deed, let the bystander inform the magistrates, and let the magistrates bring the offender before the court; and if any of the magistrates refuses to act, he likewise shall be tried for impiety. Any one who is found guilty of such an offence shall be fined at the discretion of the court, and shall also be punished by a term of imprisonment. There shall be three prisons—one for common offences against life and property; another, near by the spot where the Nocturnal Council will assemble, which is to be called the 'House of Reformation'; the third, to be situated in some desolate region in the centre of the country, shall be called by a name indicating retribution. There are three causes of impiety, and from each of them spring impieties of two kinds, six in all. First, there is the impiety of those who deny the existence of the Gods; these may be honest men, haters of evil, who are only dangerous because they talk loosely about the Gods and make others like themselves; but there is also a more vicious class, who are full of craft and licentiousness. To this latter belong diviners, jugglers, despots, demagogues, generals, hierophants of private mysteries, and sophists. The first class shall be only imprisoned and admonished. The second class should be put to death, if they could be, many times over. The two other sorts of impiety, first of those who deny the care of the Gods, and secondly, of those who affirm that they may be propitiated, have similar subdivisions, varying in degree of guilt. Those who have learnt to blaspheme from mere ignorance shall be imprisoned in the House of Reformation for five years at least, and not allowed to see any one but members of the Nocturnal Council, who shall converse with them touching their souls health. If any of the prisoners come to their right mind, at the end of five years let them be restored to sane company; but he who again offends shall die. As to that class of monstrous natures who not only believe that the Gods are negligent, or may be propitiated, but pretend to practise on the souls of quick and dead, and promise to charm the Gods, and to effect the ruin of houses and states—he, I say, who is guilty of these things, shall be bound in the central prison, and shall have no intercourse with any freeman, receiving only his daily rations of food from the public slaves; and when he dies, let him be cast beyond the border; and if any freeman assist to bury him, he shall be liable to a suit for impiety. But the sins of the father shall not be visited upon his children, who, like other orphans, shall be educated by the state. Further, let there be a general law which will have a tendency to repress impiety. No man shall have religious services in his house, but he shall go with his friends to pray and sacrifice in the temples. The reason of this is, that religious institutions can only be framed by a great intelligence. But women and weak men are always consecrating the event of the moment; they are under the influence of dreams and apparitions, and they build altars and temples in every village and in any place where they have had a vision. The law is designed to prevent this, and also to deter men from attempting to propitiate the Gods by secret sacrifices, which only multiply their sins. Therefore let the law run:—No one shall have private religious rites; and if a man or woman who has not been previously noted for any impiety offend in this way, let them be admonished to remove their rites to a public temple; but if the offender be one of the obstinate sort, he shall be brought to trial before the guardians, and if he be found guilty, let him die.
And now our three points are proven; and we agree (1) that there are Gods, (2) that they care for humans, (3) that they cannot be bribed to commit injustice. I've spoken passionately, out of concern that this impiety of theirs could lead to a distortion of life. Our passion won't be wasted if we've managed to convince these individuals to despise their actions and change their ways. 'So let's hope.' Now that the introduction is finished, we'll issue a proclamation commanding the impious to abandon their wrongdoings; and if they refuse, the law will be as follows:—If someone is guilty of impiety in thought or action, let bystanders inform the authorities, and let the authorities bring the offender before the court; and if any of the authorities refuse to act, they too will be tried for impiety. Anyone found guilty of such an offense will face a fine determined by the court and will also serve time in prison. There will be three prisons—one for common offenses against people and property; another, close to where the Nocturnal Council meets, which will be called the 'House of Reformation'; the third, located in a desolate area in the center of the country, will be named to reflect retribution. There are three causes of impiety, each leading to two types of offenses, making a total of six. First, there's the impiety of those who deny the existence of the Gods; these may be sincere individuals, opposed to evil, who are only dangerous because they speak carelessly about the Gods and make others think the same way; but there's also a more harmful group, who are devious and immoral. This second group includes fortune tellers, tricksters, tyrants, politicians, military leaders, secret cult leaders, and sophists. The first group will only be imprisoned and warned. The second group should be put to death, if possible, multiple times. The other two kinds of impiety—first, those who deny the care of the Gods, and second, those who claim they can be appeased—also have subdivisions, varying in severity. Those who blaspheme out of ignorance will be imprisoned in the House of Reformation for at least five years, with communication limited to members of the Nocturnal Council, who will discuss their spiritual well-being. If any prisoners regain their senses after five years, they will be allowed to return to society; but those who offend again will be put to death. As for those who not only believe that the Gods are negligent or that they can be appeased but also claim to manipulate the souls of the living and the dead, promising to charm the Gods and cause destruction—such individuals will be locked in the central prison, without contact with anyone free, receiving only daily rations from public servants; and when they die, they will be disposed of beyond the borders, and anyone who helps bury them will face charges of impiety. However, the sins of the father will not affect their children, who will be educated by the state, like other orphans. Additionally, there should be a general law aimed at curbing impiety. No one shall conduct religious services at home; instead, they should go with friends to pray and sacrifice at the temples. This is because religious institutions can only be established by wise individuals. However, women and weak-minded men often create rituals based on fleeting moments; they are influenced by dreams and visions, building altars and temples in every village or wherever they experience a vision. This law intends to prevent such practices and also discourage individuals from attempting to appease the Gods with secret sacrifices, which only increase their wrongdoing. Therefore, the law will state:—No one shall perform private religious rites; and if a man or woman not previously noted for impiety offends in this manner, they will be urged to move their rites to a public temple; but if the offender is stubborn, they will be brought to trial before the guardians, and if found guilty, they shall face death.
BOOK XI. As to dealings between man and man, the principle of them is simple—Thou shalt not take what is not thine; and shalt do to others as thou wouldst that they should do to thee. First, of treasure trove:—May I never desire to find, or lift, if I find, or be induced by the counsel of diviners to lift, a treasure which one who was not my ancestor has laid down; for I shall not gain so much in money as I shall lose in virtue. The saying, 'Move not the immovable,' may be repeated in a new sense; and there is a common belief which asserts that such deeds prevent a man from having a family. To him who is careless of such consequences, and, despising the word of the wise, takes up a treasure which is not his—what will be done by the hand of the Gods, God only knows,—but I would have the first person who sees the offender, inform the wardens of the city or the country; and they shall send to Delphi for a decision, and whatever the oracle orders, they shall carry out. If the informer be a freeman, he shall be honoured, and if a slave, set free; but he who does not inform, if he be a freeman, shall be dishonoured, and if a slave, shall be put to death. If a man leave anywhere anything great or small, intentionally or unintentionally, let him who may find the property deem the deposit sacred to the Goddess of ways. And he who appropriates the same, if he be a slave, shall be beaten with many stripes; if a freeman, he shall pay tenfold, and be held to have done a dishonourable action. If a person says that another has something of his, and the other allows that he has the property in dispute, but maintains it to be his own, let the ownership be proved out of the registers of property. If the property is registered as belonging to some one who is absent, possession shall be given to him who offers sufficient security on behalf of the absentee; or if the property is not registered, let it remain with the three eldest magistrates, and if it should be an animal, the defeated party must pay the cost of its keep. A man may arrest his own slave, and he may also imprison for safe-keeping the runaway slave of a friend. Any one interfering with him must produce three sureties; otherwise, he will be liable to an action for violence, and if he be cast, must pay a double amount of damages to him from whom he has taken the slave. A freedman who does not pay due respect to his patron, may also be seized. Due respect consists in going three times a month to the house of his patron, and offering to perform any lawful service for him; he must also marry as his master pleases; and if his property be greater than his master's, he must hand over to him the excess. A freedman may not remain in the state, except with the consent of the magistrates and of his master, for more than twenty years; and whenever his census exceeds that of the third class, he must in any case leave the country within thirty days, taking his property with him. If he break this regulation, the penalty shall be death, and his property shall be confiscated. Suits about these matters are to be decided in the courts of the tribes, unless the parties have settled the matter before a court of neighbours or before arbiters. If anybody claim a beast, or anything else, let the possessor refer to the seller or giver of the property within thirty days, if the latter reside in the city, or, if the goods have been received from a stranger, within five months, of which the middle month shall include the summer solstice. All purchases and exchanges are to be made in the agora, and paid for on the spot; the law will not allow credit to be given. No law shall protect the money subscribed for clubs. He who sells anything of greater value than fifty drachmas shall abide in the city for ten days, and let his whereabouts be known to the buyer, in case of any reclamation. When a slave is sold who is subject to epilepsy, stone, or any other invisible disorder, the buyer, if he be a physician or trainer, or if he be warned, shall have no redress; but in other cases within six months, or within twelve months in epileptic disorders, he may bring the matter before a jury of physicians to be agreed upon by both parties; and the seller who loses the suit, if he be an expert, shall pay twice the price; or if he be a private person, the bargain shall be rescinded, and he shall simply refund. If a person knowingly sells a homicide to another, who is informed of his character, there is no redress. But if the judges—who are to be the five youngest guardians of the law—decide that the purchaser was not aware, then the seller is to pay threefold, and to purify the house of the buyer.
BOOK XI. When it comes to interactions between people, the basic rule is straightforward—don’t take what isn’t yours; treat others how you want to be treated. First, regarding treasure found: may I never wish to find or take, if I do find, or be swayed by advice from fortune tellers to take any treasure that does not belong to me; because my gain in money won’t be worth the loss in integrity. The saying, 'Leave the untouched alone,' can be interpreted in a new way; there's a common belief that such actions prevent someone from having a family. For someone who disregards these consequences, ignores wise advice, and takes a treasure that isn’t theirs—the actions of the Gods can be unpredictable, but I would have the first person to witness the wrongdoing inform the city or area authorities; they should then consult the oracle at Delphi for guidance, and whatever the oracle advises, they will enforce. If the informant is free, they will be honored; if they're a slave, they'll be freed; but anyone who fails to report, if they are free, will be dishonored, and if they are a slave, they shall be executed. If someone leaves anything, big or small, intentionally or unintentionally, wherever, the finder should consider the property a sacred deposit for the Goddess of pathways. Anyone who keeps it for themselves, if they are a slave, will be severely punished; if they are free, they must repay ten times its worth, and their actions will be viewed as shameful. If someone claims that another person has their property, and the other person agrees they have it but insists it’s theirs, ownership should be established through property records. If the property is registered to someone who is absent, it will go to whoever can provide sufficient security for the absentee; if it isn’t registered, it will stay with the three eldest magistrates, and if it’s an animal, the losing party must cover its care costs. A person can detain their own slave, and can also secure the runaway slave of a friend. Anyone trying to interfere must provide three guarantees; otherwise, they face a lawsuit for violence, and if found guilty, must pay double the damages to the original slave owner. A freedman who disrespects their patron can also be seized. Respect means visiting their patron's house three times a month and offering to perform any lawful task; they must also marry according to their patron's wishes; and if their property exceeds that of their patron, they must give over the excess. A freedman can’t stay in the country without the magistrates' and their patron’s consent for more than twenty years; and if their assets surpass those in the third class, they must leave the country within thirty days, taking their belongings with them. If they violate this rule, the punishment is death, and their belongings will be confiscated. Disputes about these issues should be decided in tribal courts unless both parties previously resolved the matter in a neighborhood court or through arbitration. If anyone claims ownership of a beast or anything else, the current possessor must reach out to the seller or giver within thirty days if they live in the city, or within five months if the item came from a stranger, with the middle month including the summer solstice. All purchases and exchanges should happen in the agora, and payment should be made immediately; the law does not permit credit. No law will protect funds subscribed for clubs. Anyone selling anything worth more than fifty drachmas must stay in the city for ten days, making their location known to the buyer in case of any claims. When selling a slave with epilepsy, stones, or any other invisible illness, the buyer—if they’re a physician or trainer, or if they have been warned—will have no recourse; but in other cases within six months, or within twelve months for epileptic conditions, they can bring the case to a jury of physicians agreed upon by both parties; and if the seller loses the case and is an expert, they must pay double the price; or if they are a private person, the deal will be cancelled, and they will simply refund the payment. If someone knowingly sells a murderer to another party who is aware of their background, there will be no compensation. But if the judges—who are the five youngest guardians of the law—determine that the buyer was unaware, then the seller must pay triple and cleanse the buyer's home.
He who exchanges money for money, or beast for beast, must warrant either of them to be sound and good. As in the case of other laws, let us have a preamble, relating to all this class of crime. Adulteration is a kind of falsehood about which the many commonly say that at proper times the practice may often be right, but they do not define at what times. But the legislator will tell them, that no man should invoke the Gods when he is practising deceit or fraud, in word or deed. For he is the enemy of heaven, first, who swears falsely, not thinking of the Gods by whom he swears, and secondly, he who lies to his superiors. (Now the superiors are the betters of inferiors,—the elder of the younger, parents of children, men of women, and rulers of subjects.) The trader who cheats in the agora is a liar and is perjured—he respects neither the name of God nor the regulations of the magistrates. If after hearing this he will still be dishonest, let him listen to the law:—The seller shall not have two prices on the same day, neither must he puff his goods, nor offer to swear about them. If he break the law, any citizen not less than thirty years of age may smite him. If he sell adulterated goods, the slave or metic who informs against him shall have the goods; the citizen who brings such a charge, if he prove it, shall offer up the goods in question to the Gods of the agora; or if he fail to prove it, shall be dishonoured. He who is detected in selling adulterated goods shall be deprived of them, and shall receive a stripe for every drachma of their value. The wardens of the agora and the guardians of the law shall take experienced persons into counsel, and draw up regulations for the agora. These shall be inscribed on a column in front of the court of the wardens of the agora.—As to the wardens of the city, enough has been said already. But if any omissions in the law are afterwards discovered, the wardens and the guardians shall supply them, and have them inscribed after the original regulations on a column before the court of the wardens of the city.
Anyone who trades money for money or animals for animals must guarantee that what they are offering is good and sound. As with other laws, let's introduce a preamble concerning this type of wrongdoing. Adulteration is a type of dishonesty that many claim can occasionally be justified, but they fail to specify when. However, the lawmaker will remind them that no one should call upon the Gods while engaging in deceit or fraud, whether in words or actions. A person who swears falsely, without considering the Gods they swear by, is the first enemy of heaven, along with anyone who lies to their superiors. (Superiors include those who are better than inferiors, older than younger people, parents of children, men over women, and rulers over subjects.) A trader who cheats in the marketplace is a liar and guilty of perjury, showing no respect for the name of God or the laws of the authorities. If he hears this and still decides to be dishonest, the law has something to say: The seller may not set two different prices on the same day, must not exaggerate his products, or offer to swear about them. If he breaks the law, any citizen over the age of thirty may punish him. If he sells adulterated goods, the slave or resident alien who reports him will receive the goods; if a citizen brings such a charge and proves it, he will dedicate the goods in question to the Gods of the marketplace; if he fails to prove it, he will face dishonor. Anyone caught selling adulterated goods will lose them and receive a stripe for each drachma of their value. The overseers of the marketplace and custodians of the law will consult experienced individuals to draft regulations for the marketplace. These will be inscribed on a column in front of the overseers’ court. —Regarding the overseers of the city, enough has been said. However, if any gaps in the law are discovered later, the overseers and custodians will address them and have those added to the original regulations on a column before the overseers' court.
Next in order follows the subject of retail trades, which in their natural use are the reverse of mischievous; for every man is a benefactor who reduces what is unequal to symmetry and proportion. Money is the instrument by which this is accomplished, and the shop-keeper, the merchant, and hotel-keeper do but supply the wants and equalize the possessions of mankind. Why, then, does any dishonour attach to a beneficent occupation? Let us consider the nature of the accusation first, and then see whether it can be removed. 'What is your drift?' Dear Cleinias, there are few men who are so gifted by nature, and improved by education, as to be able to control the desire of making money; or who are sober in their wishes and prefer moderation to accumulation. The great majority think that they can never have enough, and the consequence is that retail trade has become a reproach. Whereas, however ludicrous the idea may seem, if noble men and noble women could be induced to open a shop, and to trade upon incorruptible principles, then the aspect of things would change, and retail traders would be regarded as nursing fathers and mothers. In our own day the trader goes and settles in distant places, and receives the weary traveller hospitably at first, but in the end treats him as an enemy and a captive, whom he only liberates for an enormous ransom. This is what has brought retail trade into disrepute, and against this the legislator ought to provide. Men have said of old, that to fight against two opponents is hard; and the two opponents of whom I am thinking are wealth and poverty—the one corrupting men by luxury; the other, through misery, depriving them of the sense of shame. What remedies can a city find for this disease? First, to have as few retail traders as possible; secondly, to give retail trade over to a class whose corruption will not injure the state; and thirdly, to restrain the insolence and meanness of the retailers.
Next, let's talk about retail trades, which, in their true sense, are actually helpful because every person who makes things more equal is doing a good thing. Money is the tool that makes this possible, and shopkeepers, merchants, and hoteliers simply meet people’s needs and balance out what everyone has. So why is there any shame attached to such a positive profession? Let’s first look at the nature of the criticism and then see if it can be addressed. 'What are you getting at?' Well, Cleinias, not many people are naturally inclined or educated enough to resist the urge to make money; most are not moderate in their desires and think they can never have enough, which is why retail trade has a bad reputation. However silly it may sound, if honorable men and women could be persuaded to open shops and trade with integrity, then the perception would shift, and retail traders would be seen as nurturing figures. Nowadays, traders go off to faraway places, welcoming tired travelers at first, but eventually treating them like enemies or captives, only letting them go for an outrageous price. This is what has tarnished the image of retail trade, and it’s something that lawmakers should address. People have long said that battling two foes is tough, and those two foes I’m thinking of are wealth and poverty—the former corrupting people with luxury, the latter robbing them of their dignity through suffering. What solutions can a city find for this issue? First, minimizing the number of retail traders; second, assigning retail trade to a group whose moral failings won’t harm the community; and third, limiting the arrogance and greed of retailers.
Let us make the following laws:—(1) In the city of the Magnetes none of the 5040 citizens shall be a retailer or merchant, or do any service to any private persons who do not equally serve him, except to his father and mother and their fathers and mothers, and generally to his elders who are freemen, and whom he serves as a freeman. He who follows an illiberal pursuit may be cited for dishonouring his family, and kept in bonds for a year; and if he offend again, he shall be bound for two years; and for every offence his punishment shall be doubled: (2) Every retailer shall be a metic or a foreigner: (3) The guardians of the law shall have a special care of this part of the community, whose calling exposes them to peculiar temptations. They shall consult with persons of experience, and find out what prices will yield the traders a moderate profit, and fix them.
Let’s establish the following rules:—(1) In the city of Magnetes, none of the 5040 citizens shall be retailers or merchants, or provide any services to private individuals who do not equally serve them, except for their parents and their grandparents, and generally to their elders who are free citizens, whom they assist as free citizens. Anyone who engages in an unworthy profession may be charged with dishonoring their family and held in custody for a year; if they offend again, they will be detained for two years; and for each subsequent offense, their punishment will be doubled: (2) All retailers must be metics or foreigners: (3) The law enforcement authorities shall pay special attention to this segment of the community, whose work puts them at risk of specific temptations. They shall consult experienced individuals to determine what prices will allow traders to make a reasonable profit and set those prices.
When a man does not fulfil his contract, he being under no legal or other impediment, the case shall be brought before the court of the tribes, if not previously settled by arbitration. The class of artisans is consecrated to Hephaestus and Athene; the makers of weapons to Ares and Athene: all of whom, remembering that the Gods are their ancestors, should be ashamed to deceive in the practice of their craft. If any man is lazy in the fulfilment of his work, and fancies, foolish fellow, that his patron God will not deal hardly with him, he will be punished by the God; and let the law follow:—He who fails in his undertaking shall pay the value, and do the work gratis in a specified time. The contractor, like the seller, is enjoined by law to charge the simple value of his work; in a free city, art should be a true thing, and the artist must not practise on the ignorance of others. On the other hand, he who has ordered any work and does not pay the workman according to agreement, dishonours Zeus and Athene, and breaks the bonds of society. And if he does not pay at the time agreed, let him pay double; and although interest is forbidden in other cases, let the workman receive after the expiration of a year interest at the rate of an obol a month for every drachma (equal to 200 per cent. per ann.). And we may observe by the way, in speaking of craftsmen, that if our military craft do their work well, the state will praise those who honour them, and blame those who do not honour them. Not that the first place of honour is to be assigned to the warrior; a higher still is reserved for those who obey the laws.
When a man doesn’t fulfill his contract, and there’s no legal or other reason preventing him from doing so, the issue should be brought before the court of the tribes, unless it’s already been settled by arbitration. The group of artisans is dedicated to Hephaestus and Athene; the makers of weapons to Ares and Athene as well. All of them, knowing that the Gods are their ancestors, should be embarrassed to deceive in their craft. If someone is lazy in completing his work and foolishly thinks that his patron God won't be tough on him, he will be punished by that God; and let the law take its course: Anyone who fails to complete their task shall pay the value and perform the work for free within a specified time. Like sellers, contractors are required by law to charge only the fair value of their work; in a free city, art should be authentic, and the artist must not take advantage of others' ignorance. Conversely, anyone who orders work and fails to pay the worker as agreed dishonors Zeus and Athene and disrupts social bonds. If he doesn’t pay on time, he should pay double; and although interest is prohibited in other situations, the worker should receive interest at the rate of an obol per month for every drachma (which equals 200 percent annually) after one year. Furthermore, when discussing craftsmen, we should note that if our military professionals do their jobs well, the state will commend those who respect them and criticize those who do not. It’s not that the warriors deserve the top honor; even higher respect is given to those who follow the laws.
Most of the dealings between man and man are now settled, with the exception of such as relate to orphans and guardianships. These lead us to speak of the intentions of the dying, about which we must make regulations. I say 'must'; for mankind cannot be allowed to dispose of their property as they please, in ways at variance with one another and with law and custom. But a dying person is a strange being, and is not easily managed; he wants to be master of all he has, and is apt to use angry words. He will say,—'May I not do what I will with my own, and give much to my friends, and little to my enemies?' 'There is reason in that.' O Cleinias, in my judgment the older lawgivers were too soft-hearted, and wanting in insight into human affairs. They were too ready to listen to the outcry of a dying man, and hence they were induced to give him an absolute power of bequest. But I would say to him:—O creature of a day, you know neither what is yours nor yourself: for you and your property are not your own, but belong to your whole family, past and to come, and property and family alike belong to the State. And therefore I must take out of your hands the charge of what you leave behind you, with a view to the interests of all. And I hope that you will not quarrel with us, now that you are going the way of all mankind; we will do our best for you and yours when you are no longer here. Let this be our address to the living and dying, and let the law be as follows:—The father who has sons shall appoint one of them to be the heir of the lot; and if he has given any other son to be adopted by another, the adoption shall also be recorded; and if he has still a son who has no lot, and has a chance of going to a colony, he may give him what he has more than the lot; or if he has more than one son unprovided for, he may divide the money between them. A son who has a house of his own, and a daughter who is betrothed, are not to share in the bequest of money; and the son or daughter who, having inherited one lot, acquires another, is to bequeath the new inheritance to the next of kin. If a man have only daughters, he may adopt the husband of any one of them; or if he have lost a son, let him make mention of the circumstance in his will and adopt another. If he have no children, he may give away a tenth of his acquired property to whomsoever he likes; but he must adopt an heir to inherit the lot, and may leave the remainder to him. Also he may appoint guardians for his children; or if he die without appointing them or without making a will, the nearest kinsmen,—two on the father's and two on the mother's side,—and one friend of the departed, shall be appointed guardians. The fifteen eldest guardians of the law are to have special charge of all orphans, the whole number of fifteen being divided into bodies of three, who will succeed one another according to seniority every year for five years. If a man dying intestate leave daughters, he must pardon the law which marries them for looking, first to kinship, and secondly to the preservation of the lot. The legislator cannot regard the character of the heir, which to the father is the first consideration. The law will therefore run as follows:—If the intestate leave daughters, husbands are to be found for them among their kindred according to the following table of affinity: first, their father's brothers; secondly, the sons of their father's brothers; thirdly, of their father's sisters; fourthly, their great-uncles; fifthly, the sons of a great-uncle; sixthly, the sons of a great-aunt. The kindred in such cases shall always be reckoned in this way; the relationship shall proceed upwards through brothers and sisters and brothers' and sisters' children, and first the male line must be taken and then the female. If there is a dispute in regard to fitness of age for marriage, this the judge shall decide, after having made an inspection of the youth naked, and of the maiden naked down to the waist. If the maiden has no relations within the degree of third cousin, she may choose whom she likes, with the consent of her guardians; or she may even select some one who has gone to a colony, and he, if he be a kinsman, will take the lot by law; if not, he must have her guardians' consent, as well as hers. When a man dies without children and without a will, let a young man and a young woman go forth from the family and take up their abode in the desolate house. The woman shall be selected from the kindred in the following order of succession:—first, a sister of the deceased; second, a brother's daughter; third, a sister's daughter; fourth, a father's sister; fifth, a daughter of a father's brother; sixth, a daughter of a father's sister. For the man the same order shall be observed as in the preceding case. The legislator foresees that laws of this kind will sometimes press heavily, and that his intention cannot always be fulfilled; as for example, when there are mental and bodily defects in the persons who are enjoined to marry. But he must be excused for not being always able to reconcile the general principles of public interest with the particular circumstances of individuals; and he is willing to allow, in like manner, that the individual cannot always do what the lawgiver wishes. And then arbiters must be chosen, who will determine equitably the cases which may arise under the law: e.g. a rich cousin may sometimes desire a grander match, or the requirements of the law can only be fulfilled by marrying a madwoman. To meet such cases let the following law be enacted:—If any one comes forward and says that the lawgiver, had he been alive, would not have required the carrying out of the law in a particular case, let him go to the fifteen eldest guardians of the law who have the care of orphans; but if he thinks that too much power is thus given to them, he may bring the case before the court of select judges.
Most interactions between people are now settled, except for those involving orphans and guardians. This brings us to discuss the wishes of the dying, about which we need to make rules. I say 'need'; people can't just manage their property how they want, in ways that conflict with each other and with the law and tradition. However, a dying person is a complex figure and hard to manage; they want control over everything they have and may use harsh words. They might say, "Am I not allowed to do what I want with my own and give generously to my friends and little to my enemies?" "That makes sense." O Cleinias, I believe the earlier lawmakers were too compassionate and lacked insight into human nature. They were too quick to heed the cries of a dying person, which led to granting them absolute control over their inheritance. But I would say to them: "O fleeting being, you know neither what is yours nor who you truly are; for you and your belongings are not solely yours, but belong to your entire family, both past and future, and to the State as well. Therefore, I must take from you the responsibility of what you leave behind, for the sake of everyone's interests. And I hope you won't argue with us as you head toward the inevitable; we'll do our best for you and your family in your absence. Let this be our message to both the living and the dying, and let the law state: the father with sons must designate one of them as the heir to his property; if he has adopted another son, that adoption must also be documented; and if he has a son without property who may go to a colony, he can give him anything above what he has as an inheritance; or if he has multiple sons without property, he can share the extra money among them. A son who owns a house and a daughter who is engaged shall not inherit any money; and the son or daughter who inherits one property and gains another must pass the new inheritance to their next closest relative. If a man has only daughters, he may adopt any of their husbands; or if he has lost a son, he should mention this in his will and adopt another. If he has no children, he can donate a tenth of his acquired wealth to anyone he wishes; but he must adopt an heir for his property and can leave the rest to him. He may also appoint guardians for his children; if he dies without appointing them or without a will, the nearest relatives—two from the father's side and two from the mother's—along with one friend of the deceased, shall be assigned as guardians. The fifteen oldest guardians of the law will be responsible for all orphans, divided into groups of three, who will alternate according to seniority every year for five years. If a man dies without a will, leaving daughters, he must accept the law that marries them off first considering kinship and then preserving property. The legislator cannot assess the heir's character, which is the father's priority. Thus, the law states: if the deceased leaves daughters, husbands must be found from among their relatives according to this order: first, their father's brothers; second, the sons of their father's brothers; third, their father's sisters; fourth, their great-uncles; fifth, the sons of a great-uncle; sixth, the sons of a great-aunt. The relatives must be counted in this order; the connection should move up through brothers and sisters and their children, starting with males and then females. If there is a disagreement regarding eligibility for marriage age, the judge will decide, having seen both the young man and the young woman naked down to the waist. If the woman has no relatives within the third cousin degree, she can choose whoever she likes, with her guardians' approval; or she may even select someone who has moved to a colony, and if he is a relative, he will inherit by law; if not, he must get consent from her guardians as well as hers. When a man dies without children or a will, a young man and a young woman should be chosen from the family to live in the abandoned house. The woman should be selected from the relatives in this order: first, a sister of the deceased; second, a brother's daughter; third, a sister's daughter; fourth, a father's sister; fifth, a daughter of a father's brother; sixth, a daughter of a father's sister. The same sequence applies to the man. The legislator anticipates that such laws will sometimes impose significant burdens and that his aims cannot always be achieved, especially when there are mental or physical disabilities in those expected to marry. However, he must be excused for not being able to consistently reconcile the general principles of public interest with the specific situations of individuals; he is open to the idea that individuals cannot always do what the lawgiver envisions. Therefore, it is necessary to choose arbitrators who can fairly resolve disputes arising under the law: for example, a wealthy cousin may prefer a more prestigious match, or fulfilling the law's requirements might mean marrying someone who is not mentally stable. To address these scenarios, the following law should be established: if anyone claims that the lawgiver would not have insisted on enforcing the law in a particular case if he were alive, they should go to the fifteen oldest guardians of the law tasked with overseeing orphans; but if they believe too much power is given to them, they can present the case to a court of chosen judges.
Thus will orphans have a second birth. In order to make their sad condition as light as possible, the guardians of the law shall be their parents, and shall be admonished to take care of them. And what admonition can be more appropriate than the assurance which we formerly gave, that the souls of the dead watch over mortal affairs? About this there are many ancient traditions, which may be taken on trust from the legislator. Let men fear, in the first place, the Gods above; secondly, the souls of the departed, who naturally care for their own descendants; thirdly, the aged living, who are quick to hear of any neglect of family duties, especially in the case of orphans. For they are the holiest and most sacred of all deposits, and the peculiar care of guardians and magistrates; and those who try to bring them up well will contribute to their own good and to that of their families. He who listens to the preamble of the law will never know the severity of the legislator; but he who disobeys, and injures the orphan, will pay twice the penalty he would have paid if the parents had been alive. More laws might have been made about orphans, did we not suppose that the guardians have children and property of their own which are protected by the laws; and the duty of the guardian in our state is the same as that of a father, though his honour or disgrace is greater. A legal admonition and threat may, however, be of service: the guardian of the orphan and the guardian of the law who is over him, shall love the orphan as their own children, and take more care of his or her property than of their own. If the guardian of the child neglect his duty, the guardian of the law shall fine him; and the guardian may also have the magistrate tried for neglect in the court of select judges, and he shall pay, if convicted, a double penalty. Further, the guardian of the orphan who is careless or dishonest may be fined on the information of any of the citizens in a fourfold penalty, half to go to the orphan and half to the prosecutor of the suit. When the orphan is of age, if he thinks that he has been ill-used, his guardian may be brought to trial by him within five years, and the penalty shall be fixed by the court. Or if the magistrate has neglected the orphan, he shall pay damages to him; but if he have defrauded him, he shall make compensation and also be deposed from his office of guardian of the law.
Thus, orphans will have a second chance at life. To lighten their sad situation as much as possible, those entrusted with the law will be their guardians and will be reminded to take care of them. What could be more fitting than the assurance we once gave that the souls of the deceased look out for human matters? There are many ancient traditions regarding this that can be trusted from the lawmakers. Men should, first of all, fear the Gods above; secondly, the souls of those who have passed, who naturally care for their own descendants; and thirdly, the elderly among the living, who are quick to notice any neglect of family responsibilities, especially concerning orphans. For they are the most sacred and precious of all responsibilities, deserving special attention from guardians and officials. Those who strive to raise them well will benefit both themselves and their families. Those who heed the preamble of the law will never experience the severity of the lawmaker; however, those who disobey and harm the orphan will face twice the punishment they would have received if the parents had been alive. More laws could have been created regarding orphans, had we not assumed that guardians have their own children and property, which are also protected by the laws; the guardian's duty in our society is similar to that of a father, albeit with greater implications for their honor or disgrace. A legal warning and threat can be helpful: the guardian of the orphan and the overseeing legal authority should love the orphan as if they were their own children and take better care of the orphan's property than their own. If the child's guardian neglects their duties, the legal guardian will impose a fine; and additionally, the guardian can bring the legal authority to court for neglect before a panel of judges, where they will face a double penalty if convicted. Moreover, if the guardian of the orphan is negligent or dishonest, they can be fined based on a complaint from any citizen, with the penalty being four times the amount—half going to the orphan and half to the person who filed the complaint. When the orphan comes of age, if they believe they have been mistreated, they can bring their guardian to trial within five years, with the penalty determined by the court. If the legal authority has neglected the orphan, they must pay damages; if they have defrauded the orphan, they must provide compensation and will also be removed from their position as the legal guardian.
If irremediable differences arise between fathers and sons, the father may want to renounce his son, or the son may indict his father for imbecility: such violent separations only take place when the family are 'a bad lot'; if only one of the two parties is bad, the differences do not grow to so great a height. But here arises a difficulty. Although in any other state a son who is disinherited does not cease to be a citizen, in ours he does; for the number of citizens cannot exceed 5040. And therefore he who is to suffer such a penalty ought to be abjured, not only by his father, but by the whole family. The law, then, should run as follows:—If any man's evil fortune or temper incline him to disinherit his son, let him not do so lightly or on the instant; but let him have a council of his own relations and of the maternal relations of his son, and set forth to them the propriety of disinheriting him, and allow his son to answer. And if more than half of the kindred male and female, being of full age, condemn the son, let him be disinherited. If any other citizen desires to adopt him, he may, for young men's characters often change in the course of life. But if, after ten years, he remains unadopted, let him be sent to a colony. If disease, or old age, or evil disposition cause a man to go out of his mind, and he is ruining his house and property, and his son doubts about indicting him for insanity, let him lay the case before the eldest guardians of the law, and consult with them. And if they advise him to proceed, and the father is decided to be imbecile, he shall have no more control over his property, but shall live henceforward like a child in the house.
If serious differences come up between fathers and sons, the father might want to cut ties with his son, or the son might accuse his father of being incompetent. Such drastic separations only happen when the family isn’t doing well; if only one of the parties is problematic, the differences don’t escalate to such an extreme. However, there’s a challenge here. In any other situation, a son who is disinherited doesn’t stop being a citizen, but in our society, he does; because the number of citizens can’t go over 5040. Therefore, the person who faces this penalty should be rejected not just by his father, but by the entire family. So the law should state: If someone’s bad luck or temperament leads him to disinherit his son, he shouldn't do it lightly or impulsively; instead, he should consult with his family and the mother’s side of the son’s family, explain why he wants to disinherit, and let his son respond. If more than half of the adult relatives, both male and female, condemn the son, then he can be disinherited. If another citizen wishes to adopt him, he can, since young people often change as they grow. But if, after ten years, he hasn’t been adopted, he should be sent to a colony. If illness, old age, or a bad temperament makes a man lose his mind and he’s damaging his household and property, and his son is uncertain about accusing him of insanity, the son should bring the matter to the eldest guardians of the law and seek their advice. If they suggest he proceed and the father is found to be incompetent, he will lose control over his property and will live in the house like a child from then on.
If a man and his wife are of incompatible tempers, ten guardians of the law and ten of the matrons who regulate marriage shall take their case in hand, and reconcile them, if possible. If, however, their swelling souls cannot be pacified, the wife may try and find a new husband, and the husband a new wife; probably they are not very gentle creatures, and should therefore be joined to milder natures. The younger of those who are separated should also select their partners with a view to the procreation of children; while the older should seek a companion for their declining years. If a woman dies, leaving children male or female, the law will advise, but not compel, the widower to abstain from a second marriage; if she leave no children, he shall be compelled to marry. Also a widow, if she is not old enough to live honestly without marriage, shall marry again; and in case she have no children, she should marry for the sake of them. There is sometimes an uncertainty which parent the offspring is to follow: in unions of a female slave with a male slave, or with a freedman or free man, or of a free woman with a male slave, the offspring is to belong to the master; but if the master or mistress be themselves the parent of the child, the slave and the child are to be sent away to another land.
If a man and his wife have clashing personalities, ten legal guardians and ten matrons who oversee marriage will handle their case and try to reconcile them, if they can. However, if their strong-willed spirits can’t be calmed, the wife may look for a new husband, and the husband may seek a new wife; they probably aren’t very gentle people and should be paired with kinder individuals. The younger ones who are separated should choose their partners with the intention of having children, while the older ones should look for companionship in their later years. If a woman passes away, leaving behind children of either gender, the law will suggest, but not force, the widower to refrain from remarrying; if she leaves no children, he will be required to marry. Additionally, a widow who is not old enough to live independently should marry again; if she has no children, she should remarry for the sake of having them. There can sometimes be confusion about which parent the children should follow: in cases where a female slave has a child with a male slave, a freedman, or a free man, or where a free woman has a child with a male slave, the child will belong to the master; but if the master or mistress is the parent of the child, both the slave and the child should be sent away to another place.
Concerning duty to parents, let the preamble be as follows:—We honour the Gods in their lifeless images, and believe that we thus propitiate them. But he who has an aged father or mother has a living image, which if he cherish it will do him far more good than any statue. 'What do you mean by cherishing them?' I will tell you. Oedipus and Amyntor and Theseus cursed their children, and their curses took effect. This proves that the Gods hear the curses of parents who are wronged; and shall we doubt that they hear and fulfil their blessings too?' 'Surely not.' And, as we were saying, no image is more honoured by the Gods than an aged father and mother, to whom when honour is done, the God who hears their prayers is rejoiced, and their influence is greater than that of the lifeless statue; for they pray that good or evil may come to us in proportion as they are honoured or dishonoured, but the statue is silent. 'Excellent.' Good men are glad when their parents live to extreme old age, or if they depart early, lament their loss; but to bad man their parents are always terrible. Wherefore let every one honour his parents, and if this preamble fails of influencing him, let him hear the law:—If any one does not take sufficient care of his parents, let the aggrieved person inform the three eldest guardians of the law and three of the women who are concerned with marriages. Women up to forty years of age, and men up to thirty, who thus offend, shall be beaten and imprisoned. After that age they are to be brought before a court composed of the eldest citizens, who may inflict any punishment upon them which they please. If the injured party cannot inform, let any freeman who hears of the case inform; a slave who does so shall be set free,—if he be the slave of the one of the parties, by the magistrate,—if owned by another, at the cost of the state; and let the magistrates, take care that he is not wronged by any one out of revenge.
Regarding the duty to parents, let the introduction be as follows:—We honor the Gods through their lifeless images, believing that this pleases them. But someone with an elderly father or mother has a living image, and if they care for it, it will benefit them far more than any statue. 'What do you mean by caring for them?' I will explain. Oedipus, Amyntor, and Theseus cursed their children, and their curses had an impact. This shows that the Gods hear the curses of wronged parents; should we doubt that they also hear and fulfill their blessings?' 'Certainly not.' And, as we were saying, no image is more revered by the Gods than an elderly father and mother. When they are honored, the God who hears their prayers rejoices, and their influence is greater than that of the lifeless statue; for they pray that good or evil may come to us in proportion to how they are honored or dishonored, while the statue remains silent. 'Very true.' Good people are happy when their parents live to a ripe old age, or if they pass away early, they mourn their loss; but for bad people, their parents are always a source of dread. Therefore, everyone should honor their parents, and if this introduction does not motivate them, let them hear the law:—If anyone fails to care for their parents adequately, the affected person should notify the three oldest guardians of the law and three women involved in marriages. Women under forty years old and men under thirty who offend in this way will be beaten and imprisoned. After that age, they will be brought before a court made up of the oldest citizens, who may impose any punishment they see fit. If the injured party cannot notify, any free person who hears about the case should report it; a slave who does so will be freed—if they belong to one of the parties, by the magistrate—if they belong to someone else, at the state's expense; and let the magistrates ensure that they are not wronged by anyone out of revenge.
The injuries which one person does to another by the use of poisons are of two kinds;—one affects the body by the employment of drugs and potions; the other works on the mind by the practice of sorcery and magic. Fatal cases of either sort have been already mentioned; and now we must have a law respecting cases which are not fatal. There is no use in arguing with a man whose mind is disturbed by waxen images placed at his own door, or on the sepulchre of his father or mother, or at a spot where three ways meet. But to the wizards themselves we must address a solemn preamble, begging them not to treat the world as if they were children, or compel the legislator to expose them, and to show men that the poisoner who is not a physician and the wizard who is not a prophet or diviner are equally ignorant of what they are doing. Let the law be as follows:—He who by the use of poison does any injury not fatal to a man or his servants, or any injury whether fatal or not to another's cattle or bees, is to be punished with death if he be a physician, and if he be not a physician he is to suffer the punishment awarded by the court: and he who injures another by sorcery, if he be a diviner or prophet, shall be put to death; and, if he be not a diviner, the court shall determine what he ought to pay or suffer.
The injuries that one person inflicts on another using poisons fall into two categories: one impacts the body through the use of drugs and potions, while the other affects the mind through sorcery and magic. Fatal cases of both types have been discussed, and now we need a law concerning non-fatal cases. There's no point in arguing with someone whose mind is disturbed by wax figures placed at their door, or on their parents' grave, or at a junction where three roads meet. But we must address the wizards directly, urging them not to treat the world as if it were a playground, or force lawmakers to expose them, showing that the poisoner who isn't a doctor and the wizard who isn't a prophet or a diviner are just as clueless about their actions. The law shall be as follows: anyone who causes non-fatal harm to a person or their servants using poison, or any harm, fatal or not, to someone else's livestock or bees, will face the death penalty if they are a physician. If they are not a physician, they will receive the punishment determined by the court. Anyone who harms another through sorcery, if they are a diviner or prophet, will be put to death; if they are not a diviner, the court will decide what they should pay or suffer.
Any one who injures another by theft or violence shall pay damages at least equal to the injury; and besides the compensation, a suitable punishment shall be inflicted. The foolish youth who is the victim of others is to have a lighter punishment; he whose folly is occasioned by his own jealousy or desire or anger is to suffer more heavily. Punishment is to be inflicted, not for the sake of vengeance, for what is done cannot be undone, but for the sake of prevention and reformation. And there should be a proportion between the punishment and the crime, in which the judge, having a discretion left him, must, by estimating the crime, second the legislator, who, like a painter, furnishes outlines for him to fill up.
Anyone who harms another through theft or violence must pay damages that are at least equal to the injury caused; in addition to the compensation, an appropriate punishment will be imposed. The foolish young person who is victimized by others will receive a lighter punishment; however, those whose folly stems from their own jealousy, desires, or anger will face harsher consequences. Punishment should not be imposed out of vengeance, since what is done cannot be undone, but rather to prevent future offenses and encourage reform. There should be a balance between the punishment and the crime, and the judge, with some discretion, must evaluate the crime to complement the legislator’s guidelines, much like a painter who provides outlines for others to complete.
A madman is not to go about at large in the city, but is to be taken care of by his relatives. Neglect on their part is to be punished in the first class by a fine of a hundred drachmas, and proportionally in the others. Now madness is of various kinds; in addition to that which arises from disease there is the madness which originates in a passionate temperament, and makes men when engaged in a quarrel use foul and abusive language against each other. This is intolerable in a well-ordered state; and therefore our law shall be as follows:—No one is to speak evil of another, but when men differ in opinion they are to instruct one another without speaking evil. Nor should any one seek to rouse the passions which education has calmed; for he who feeds and nurses his wrath is apt to make ribald jests at his opponent, with a loss of character or dignity to himself. And for this reason no one may use any abusive word in a temple, or at sacrifices, or games, or in any public assembly, and he who offends shall be censured by the proper magistrate; and the magistrate, if he fail to censure him, shall not claim the prize of virtue. In any other place the angry man who indulges in revilings, whether he be the beginner or not, may be chastised by an elder. The reviler is always trying to make his opponent ridiculous; and the use of ridicule in anger we cannot allow. We forbid the comic poet to ridicule our citizens, under a penalty of expulsion from the country or a fine of three minae. Jest in which there is no offence may be allowed; but the question of offence shall be determined by the director of education, who is to be the licenser of theatrical performances.
A madman shouldn't roam freely in the city and should be cared for by his relatives. If they neglect this responsibility, they’ll face a fine of a hundred drachmas, and less severe penalties for lesser neglect. Madness comes in different forms; besides that which results from illness, there's a type that comes from a fiery temperament, causing people, during arguments, to use harsh and abusive language against each other. This behavior is unacceptable in a well-ordered society; therefore, our law will be as follows: No one should speak ill of another. When people have different opinions, they should discuss them without resorting to insults. No one should provoke the passions that education has tamed, as someone who feeds their anger is likely to make crude jokes at their opponent's expense, which only diminishes their own dignity. For this reason, no one may use insulting language in a temple, during sacrifices, at games, or at any public gathering, and anyone who does will be reprimanded by the appropriate magistrate. The magistrate who fails to take action will not earn the reward of virtue. In other places, a person consumed by anger who starts insulting someone, whether they instigated it or not, may be reprimanded by an elder. The insulter always attempts to make their opponent look foolish, and we cannot allow this ridicule in anger. We prohibit comedic poets from mocking our citizens, or they will face expulsion from the country or a fine of three minae. Innocent jesting without offense is permitted, but the issue of what's considered offensive will be decided by the director of education, who will also be responsible for licensing theatrical performances.
The righteous man who is in adversity will not be allowed to starve in a well-ordered city; he will never be a beggar. Nor is a man to be pitied, merely because he is hungry, unless he be temperate. Therefore let the law be as follows:—Let there be no beggars in our state; and he who begs shall be expelled by the magistrates both from town and country.
The righteous person facing hardship will not be allowed to starve in a well-run city; they will never be a beggar. A person shouldn't be pitied just for being hungry, unless they lack self-control. So let the law be this: There shall be no beggars in our state; anyone who begs will be removed by the authorities from both the town and the countryside.
If a slave, male or female, does any harm to the property of another, who is not himself a party to the harm, the master shall compensate the injury or give up the offending slave. But if the master argue that the charge has arisen by collusion, with the view of obtaining the slave, he may put the plaintiff on his trial for malpractices, and recover from him twice the value of the slave; or if he is cast he must make good the damage and deliver up the slave. The injury done by a horse or other animal shall be compensated in like manner.
If a slave, whether male or female, damages someone else's property, and that person isn't involved in the wrongdoing, the master must either pay for the damage or hand over the offending slave. However, if the master claims that the accusation was made in collusion to get the slave, he can take the plaintiff to court for misconduct and recover double the value of the slave. If the master loses, he must cover the damages and surrender the slave. The same rule applies to injuries caused by a horse or other animal.
A witness who will not come of himself may be summoned, and if he fail in appearing, he shall be liable for any harm which may ensue: if he swears that he does not know, he may leave the court. A judge who is called upon as a witness must not vote. A free woman, if she is over forty, may bear witness and plead, and, if she have no husband, she may also bring an action. A slave, male or female, and a child may witness and plead only in case of murder, but they must give sureties that they will appear at the trial, if they should be charged with false witness. Such charges must be made pending the trial, and the accusations shall be sealed by both parties and kept by the magistrates until the trial for perjury comes off. If a man is twice convicted of perjury, he is not to be required, if three times, he is not to be allowed to bear witness, or, if he persists in bearing witness, is to be punished with death. When more than half the evidence is proved to be false there must be a new trial.
A witness who refuses to come on their own can be summoned, and if they fail to show up, they will be responsible for any harm that may occur. If they claim they don’t know anything, they can leave the court. A judge called as a witness must not vote. A free woman over forty can testify and represent herself, and if she is unmarried, she can also file a lawsuit. Slaves, whether male or female, and children can only testify and plead in cases of murder, but they must provide guarantees that they will show up for the trial if accused of lying. These accusations must be made before the trial, and they will be documented and held by the magistrates until the perjury trial occurs. If someone is convicted of perjury twice, they won't have to testify again, and if they're convicted three times, they cannot testify at all. If they continue to testify, they will face the death penalty. If more than half of the evidence presented is proven false, a new trial must be held.
The best and noblest things in human life are liable to be defiled and perverted. Is not justice the civilizer of mankind? And yet upon the noble profession of the advocate has come an evil name. For he is said to make the worse appear the better cause, and only requires money in return for his services. Such an art will be forbidden by the legislator, and if existing among us will be requested to depart to another city. To the disobedient let the voice of the law be heard saying:—He who tries to pervert justice in the minds of the judges, or to increase litigation, shall be brought before the supreme court. If he does so from contentiousness, let him be silenced for a time, and, if he offend again, put to death. If he have acted from a love of gain, let him be sent out of the country if he be a foreigner, or if he be a citizen let him be put to death.
The best and most admirable things in life can easily be corrupted and twisted. Isn’t justice the thing that civilizes humanity? Yet, the noble profession of the lawyer has gained a bad reputation. People say that he makes the worse argument seem like the better one and only demands payment for his services. Such a practice should be outlawed, and if it exists among us, it should be driven out to another city. To those who disobey, let the law declare:—Anyone who tries to distort justice in the minds of the judges or to increase lawsuits shall be brought before the highest court. If he does this out of spite, let him be silenced for a period, and if he offends again, let him be executed. If his motives are driven by greed, let him be expelled from the country if he is a foreigner, or if he is a citizen, let him be put to death.
BOOK XII. If a false message be taken to or brought from other states, whether friendly or hostile, by ambassadors or heralds, they shall be indicted for having dishonoured their sacred office, and, if convicted, shall suffer a penalty.—Stealing is mean; robbery is shameless. Let no man deceive himself by the supposed example of the Gods, for no God or son of a God ever really practised either force or fraud. On this point the legislator is better informed than all the poets put together. He who listens to him shall be for ever happy, but he who will not listen shall have the following law directed against him:—He who steals much, or he who steals little of the public property is deserving of the same penalty; for they are both impelled by the same evil motive. When the law punishes one man more lightly than another, this is done under the idea, not that he is less guilty, but that he is more curable. Now a thief who is a foreigner or slave may be curable; but the thief who is a citizen, and has had the advantages of education, should be put to death, for he is incurable.
BOOK XII. If a false message is taken to or brought from other states, whether they are friendly or hostile, by ambassadors or heralds, they will be charged for dishonoring their sacred office, and if found guilty, they will face a penalty. Stealing is petty; robbery is shameless. Let no one deceive themselves by the supposed example of the Gods, as no God or son of a God ever truly practiced either force or fraud. On this matter, the legislator knows better than all the poets combined. Those who heed his words will be forever happy, but those who ignore him will face the following law:—Anyone who steals a lot, or anyone who steals a little from public property deserves the same punishment; both are driven by the same evil intent. When the law punishes one person more lightly than another, it’s not because that person is less guilty, but because they are seen as more likely to be rehabilitated. Now, a thief who is a foreigner or a slave may be rehabilitatable; however, a thief who is a citizen and has had the benefits of education should be put to death, for he is beyond help.
Much consideration and many regulations are necessary about military expeditions; the great principal of all is that no one, male or female, in war or peace, in great matters or small, shall be without a commander. Whether men stand or walk, or drill, or pursue, or retreat, or wash, or eat, they should all act together and in obedience to orders. We should practise from our youth upwards the habits of command and obedience. All dances, relaxations, endurances of meats and drinks, of cold and heat, and of hard couches, should have a view to war, and care should be taken not to destroy the natural covering and use of the head and feet by wearing shoes and caps; for the head is the lord of the body, and the feet are the best of servants. The soldier should have thoughts like these; and let him hear the law:—He who is enrolled shall serve, and if he absent himself without leave he shall be indicted for failure of service before his own branch of the army when the expedition returns, and if he be found guilty he shall suffer the penalty which the courts award, and never be allowed to contend for any prize of valour, or to accuse another of misbehaviour in military matters. Desertion shall also be tried and punished in the same manner. After the courts for trying failure of service and desertion have been held, the generals shall hold another court, in which the several arms of the service will award prizes for the expedition which has just concluded. The prize is to be a crown of olive, which the victor shall offer up at the temple of his favourite war God...In any suit which a man brings, let the indictment be scrupulously true, for justice is an honourable maiden, to whom falsehood is naturally hateful. For example, when men are prosecuted for having lost their arms, great care should be taken by the witnesses to distinguish between cases in which they have been lost from necessity and from cowardice. If the hero Patroclus had not been killed but had been brought back alive from the field, he might have been reproached with having lost the divine armour. And a man may lose his arms in a storm at sea, or from a fall, and under many other circumstances. There is a distinction of language to be observed in the use of the two terms, 'thrower away of a shield' (ripsaspis), and 'loser of arms' (apoboleus oplon), one being the voluntary, the other the involuntary relinquishment of them. Let the law then be as follows:—If any one is overtaken by the enemy, having arms in his hands, and he leaves them behind him voluntarily, choosing base life instead of honourable death, let justice be done. The old legend of Caeneus, who was changed by Poseidon from a woman into a man, may teach by contraries the appropriate punishment. Let the thrower away of his shield be changed from a man into a woman—that is to say, let him be all his life out of danger, and never again be admitted by any commander into the ranks of his army; and let him pay a heavy fine according to his class. And any commander who permits him to serve shall also be punished by a fine.
A lot of thought and many rules are needed regarding military operations; the main principle is that no one, regardless of gender, in war or peace, in major issues or minor ones, should be without a leader. Whether soldiers are standing, walking, training, chasing, retreating, cleaning, or eating, they should all work together and follow orders. We should train from a young age to develop the habits of leadership and obedience. All activities like dancing, relaxing, tolerating food and drinks, dealing with heat and cold, and enduring uncomfortable beds should prepare us for war, and we should be mindful not to harm the natural protection and use of our heads and feet by wearing shoes and hats; the head is the ruler of the body, and the feet are its best servants. A soldier should think like this, and should know the law:—Anyone enrolled must serve, and if they are absent without permission, they will face charges for failing to serve when the expedition returns. If found guilty, they will receive the penalty determined by the courts and will never be allowed to compete for any honor or accuse someone else of misconduct in military matters. Desertion will also be addressed and punished in the same way. After courts for dealing with failure to serve and desertion have taken place, the generals will hold another court where different branches of the service will award prizes for the recent expedition. The prize will be an olive crown, which the winner will dedicate at the temple of their favored war god. In any legal case a person brings, the charges should be accurately true, as justice is an honorable figure who despises falsehood. For instance, when people are accused of having lost their weapons, witnesses must carefully differentiate between situations where they were lost due to necessity versus cowardice. If the hero Patroclus had survived and returned from battle alive, he might have faced blame for losing the divine armor. And a person can lose their weapons in a storm at sea, or due to a fall, and under many other circumstances. There is a distinction in the terms used: 'thrower away of a shield' (ripsaspis) versus 'loser of arms' (apoboleus oplon), one implying voluntary loss and the other involuntary. Therefore, the law should state:—If anyone is confronted by the enemy while armed and voluntarily abandons their weapons, choosing cowardice over honorable death, let justice prevail. The old tale of Caeneus, who was transformed by Poseidon from a woman into a man, can illustrate the fitting punishment by contrast. Let the one who throws away his shield be turned from a man into a woman—that is, let him live his life out of danger and never again be allowed by any commander to join the army; and let him pay a heavy fine based on his status. Additionally, any commander who allows him to serve should also face a fine.
All magistrates, whatever be their tenure of office, must give an account of their magistracy. But where shall we find the magistrate who is worthy to supervise them or look into their short-comings and crooked ways? The examiner must be more than man who is sufficient for these things. For the truth is that there are many causes of the dissolution of states; which, like ships or animals, have their cords, and girders, and sinews easily relaxed, and nothing tends more to their welfare and preservation than the supervision of them by examiners who are better than the magistrates; failing in this they fall to pieces, and each becomes many instead of one. Wherefore let the people meet after the summer solstice, in the precincts of Apollo and the Sun, and appoint three men of not less than fifty years of age. They shall proceed as follows:—Each citizen shall select some one, not himself, whom he thinks the best. The persons selected shall be reduced to one half, who have the greatest number of votes, if they are an even number; but if an odd number, he who has the smallest number of votes shall be previously withdrawn. The voting shall continue in the same manner until three only remain; and if the number of votes cast for them be equal, a distinction between the first, second, and third shall be made by lot. The three shall be crowned with an olive wreath, and proclamation made, that the city of the Magnetes, once more preserved by the Gods, presents her three best men to Apollo and the Sun, to whom she dedicates them as long as their lives answer to the judgment formed of them. They shall choose in the first year of their office twelve examiners, to continue until they are seventy-five years of age; afterwards three shall be added annually. While they hold office, they shall dwell within the precinct of the God. They are to divide all the magistracies into twelve classes, and may apply any methods of enquiry, and inflict any punishments which they please; in some cases singly, in other cases together, announcing the acquittal or punishment of the magistrate on a tablet which they will place in the agora. A magistrate who has been condemned by the examiners may appeal to the select judges, and, if he gain his suit, may in turn prosecute the examiners; but if the appellant is cast, his punishment shall be doubled, unless he was previously condemned to death.
All magistrates, regardless of how long they’ve been in office, must account for their actions. But where can we find a magistrate who is truly qualified to oversee them and examine their flaws and misdeeds? The examiner needs to be more than just someone capable of these tasks. The truth is, there are many reasons states can fall apart; like ships or animals, they have their bonds, supports, and essential parts that can easily weaken, and nothing is more important for their health and survival than being watched over by examiners who are superior to the magistrates. Without this oversight, they unravel, and each one becomes divided instead of unified. Therefore, let the people gather after the summer solstice in the sacred grounds dedicated to Apollo and the Sun, and appoint three men who are at least fifty years old. Here’s how it should work: Each citizen will choose someone, not themselves, whom they believe is the best. The chosen candidates will be narrowed down by voting to half of their number if it's even, or the one with the fewest votes will be removed if it’s odd. Voting will proceed in this manner until only three remain; if there's a tie in votes, a lottery will determine the order of first, second, and third. The three will be crowned with olive wreaths, and it will be announced that the city of the Magnetes, once again favored by the Gods, presents its three finest individuals to Apollo and the Sun, dedicating them as long as their lives reflect the judgment made of them. They will select twelve examiners in their first year, who will serve until they turn seventy-five, and then three more will be added each year. While in office, they will reside within the God’s precincts. They are to categorize all magistracies into twelve classes and can use any methods of inquiry and impose any punishments they choose, either individually or collectively, announcing the outcome—whether acquittal or punishment—on a tablet displayed in the agora. A magistrate found guilty by the examiners may appeal to the select judges, and if he succeeds, he may then prosecute the examiners; however, if the appeal fails, his punishment will be doubled, unless he was already sentenced to death.
And what honours shall be paid to these examiners, whom the whole state counts worthy of the rewards of virtue? They shall have the first place at all sacrifices and other ceremonies, and in all assemblies and public places; they shall go on sacred embassies, and have the exclusive privilege of wearing a crown of laurel. They are priests of Apollo and the Sun, and he of their number who is judged first shall be high priest, and give his name to the year. The manner of their burial, too, shall be different from that of the other citizens. The colour of their funeral array shall be white, and, instead of the voice of lamentation, around the bier shall stand a chorus of fifteen boys and fifteen maidens, chanting hymns in honour of the deceased in alternate strains during an entire day; and at dawn a band of a hundred youths shall carry the bier to the grave, marching in the garb of warriors, and the boys in front of the bier shall sing their national hymn, while the maidens and women past child-bearing follow after. Priests and priestesses may also follow, unless the Pythian oracle forbids. The sepulchre shall be a vault built underground, which will last for ever, having couches of stone placed side by side; on one of these they shall lay the departed saint, and then cover the tomb with a mound, and plant trees on every side except one, where an opening shall be left for other interments. Every year there shall be games—musical, gymnastic, or equestrian, in honour of those who have passed every ordeal. But if any of them, after having been acquitted on any occasion, begin to show the wickedness of human nature, he who pleases may bring them to trial before a court composed of the guardians of the law, and of the select judges, and of any of the examiners who are alive. If he be convicted he shall be deprived of his honours, and if the accuser do not obtain a fifth part of the votes, he shall pay a fine according to his class.
And what honors will be given to these examiners, whom the entire state considers deserving of the rewards of virtue? They will have the top spot at all sacrifices and ceremonies, and in all assemblies and public places; they will go on sacred missions and have the exclusive right to wear a laurel crown. They are priests of Apollo and the Sun, and the one among them who is deemed the best will be the high priest and will have his name assigned to the year. Their burial process will also differ from that of other citizens. The color of their funeral attire will be white, and instead of wailing, a chorus of fifteen boys and fifteen girls will surround the coffin, singing hymns in honor of the deceased in alternating parts all day long; and at dawn, a group of a hundred young men will carry the coffin to the grave, dressed as warriors, while the boys in front of the coffin will sing their national anthem, and the girls and women past childbearing age will follow behind. Priests and priestesses may also follow unless the Pythian oracle prohibits it. The tomb will be an underground vault that lasts forever, with stone couches placed side by side; on one of these, they will lay the departed saint and then cover the grave with a mound, planting trees all around except for one area, where an opening will be left for future burials. Each year there will be games—musical, athletic, or equestrian—in honor of those who have endured every test. However, if any of them, after being acquitted, start to display the wickedness of human nature, anyone can bring them to trial before a court made up of the guardians of the law, select judges, and any living examiners. If found guilty, they will lose their honors, and if the accuser fails to get a fifth of the votes, they will pay a fine based on their social class.
What is called the judgment of Rhadamanthus is suited to 'ages of faith,' but not to our days. He knew that his contemporaries believed in the Gods, for many of them were the sons of Gods; and he thought that the easiest and surest method of ending litigation was to commit the decision to Heaven. In our own day, men either deny the existence of Gods or their care of men, or maintain that they may be bribed by attentions and gifts; and the procedure of Rhadamanthus would therefore be out of date. When the religious ideas of mankind change, their laws should also change. Thus oaths should no longer be taken from plaintiff and defendant; simple statements of affirmation and denial should be substituted. For there is something dreadful in the thought, that nearly half the citizens of a state are perjured men. There is no objection to an oath, where a man has no interest in forswearing himself; as, for example, when a judge is about to give his decision, or in voting at an election, or in the judgment of games and contests. But where there would be a premium on perjury, oaths and imprecations should be prohibited as irrelevant, like appeals to feeling. Let the principles of justice be learned and taught without words of evil omen. The oaths of a stranger against a stranger may be allowed, because strangers are not permitted to become permanent residents in our state.
What’s referred to as the judgment of Rhadamanthus was appropriate for "ages of faith," but not for our time. He knew that people in his era believed in the Gods, many of whom were sons of Gods themselves; he thought that the easiest and most reliable way to resolve disputes was to leave the decision to Heaven. Today, people either deny the existence of Gods or claim they don’t care about humans, or argue that they can be swayed by gifts and favors; thus, Rhadamanthus's approach would be outdated. When religious beliefs change, laws should change as well. Therefore, instead of oaths from plaintiffs and defendants, we should use simple affirmations and denials. It’s troubling to think that almost half the citizens of a state are perjurers. Oaths are acceptable when a person has no incentive to lie, such as when a judge is about to make a ruling, during voting, or in judging competitions. But where there’s a reward for lying, oaths and curses should be banned as irrelevant, just like appeals to emotion. Let’s convey the principles of justice without the words that bring bad luck. Oaths between strangers may be permitted since strangers aren’t allowed to become permanent residents in our state.
Trials in private causes are to be decided in the same manner as lesser offences against the state. The non-attendance at a chorus or sacrifice, or the omission to pay a war-tax, may be regarded as in the first instance remediable, and the defaulter may give security; but if he forfeits the security, the goods pledged shall be sold and the money given to the state. And for obstinate disobedience, the magistrate shall have the power of inflicting greater penalties.
Trials in private cases will be handled in the same way as minor offenses against the state. Not showing up for a performance or sacrifice, or missing a war tax payment, can initially be seen as something that can be fixed, and the person at fault may offer a guarantee. However, if they fail to uphold the guarantee, the items used as collateral will be sold, and the proceeds will go to the state. For stubborn disobedience, the magistrate has the authority to impose harsher penalties.
A city which is without trade or commerce must consider what it will do about the going abroad of its own people and the admission of strangers. For out of intercourse with strangers there arises great confusion of manners, which in most states is not of any consequence, because the confusion exists already; but in a well-ordered state it may be a great evil. Yet the absolute prohibition of foreign travel, or the exclusion of strangers, is impossible, and would appear barbarous to the rest of mankind. Public opinion should never be lightly regarded, for the many are not so far wrong in their judgments as in their lives. Even the worst of men have often a divine instinct, which enables them to judge of the differences between the good and bad. States are rightly advised when they desire to have the praise of men; and the greatest and truest praise is that of virtue. And our Cretan colony should, and probably will, have a character for virtue, such as few cities have. Let this, then, be our law about foreign travel and the reception of strangers:—No one shall be allowed to leave the country who is under forty years of age—of course military service abroad is not included in this regulation—and no one at all except in a public capacity. To the Olympic, and Pythian, and Nemean, and Isthmian games, shall be sent the fairest and best and bravest, who shall support the dignity of the city in time of peace. These, when they come home, shall teach the youth the inferiority of all other governments. Besides those who go on sacred missions, other persons shall be sent out by permission of the guardians to study the institutions of foreign countries. For a people which has no experience, and no knowledge of the characters of men or the reason of things, but lives by habit only, can never be perfectly civilized. Moreover, in all states, bad as well as good, there are holy and inspired men; these the citizen of a well-ordered city should be ever seeking out; he should go forth to find them over sea and over land, that he may more firmly establish institutions in his own state which are good already and amend the bad. 'What will be the best way of accomplishing such an object?' In the first place, let the visitor of foreign countries be between fifty and sixty years of age, and let him be a citizen of repute, especially in military matters. On his return he shall appear before the Nocturnal Council: this is a body which sits from dawn to sunrise, and includes amongst its members the priests who have gained the prize of virtue, and the ten oldest guardians of the law, and the director and past directors of education; each of whom has power to bring with him a younger friend of his own selection, who is between thirty and forty. The assembly thus constituted shall consider the laws of their own and other states, and gather information relating to them. Anything of the sort which is approved by the elder members of the council shall be studied with all diligence by the younger; who are to be specially watched by the rest of the citizens, and shall receive honour, if they are deserving of honour, or dishonour, if they prove inferior. This is the assembly to which the visitor of foreign countries shall come and tell anything which he has heard from others in the course of his travels, or which he has himself observed. If he be made neither better nor worse, let him at least be praised for his zeal; and let him receive still more praise, and special honour after death, if he be improved. But if he be deteriorated by his travels, let him be prohibited from speaking to any one; and if he submit, he may live as a private individual: but if he be convicted of attempting to make innovations in education and the laws, let him die.
A city without trade or commerce needs to think about how to handle its people's travels abroad and the entry of outsiders. Interacting with strangers can create a lot of confusion about customs, which may not matter much in most places, since those places are already mixed up; however, in a well-ordered state, this confusion can be a serious problem. Still, outright banning foreign travel or keeping strangers out is impossible and would seem barbaric to others. Public opinion shouldn’t be taken lightly, as the masses aren’t usually too far off in their judgments, despite how they might live. Even the worst people often have a sense that helps them distinguish between good and bad. It’s wise for states to seek the approval of others, and the highest praise is for virtue. Our Cretan colony should, and likely will, develop a reputation for virtue that few cities can match. Therefore, let’s establish this as our rule regarding foreign travel and welcoming strangers: No one under forty years old will be allowed to leave the country — military service abroad is exempt from this rule — and no one should leave except in a public role. The best, bravest, and most admirable citizens will represent our city at the Olympic, Pythian, Nemean, and Isthmian games, maintaining the city's dignity in peaceful times. Upon their return, they will teach the youth about the shortcomings of all other governments. Aside from those on sacred missions, others may be sent abroad with the guardians’ permission to learn about foreign institutions. A society without experience and knowledge of people's character or the reasoning behind things, living solely by habit, can never be fully civilized. Additionally, in all communities, both good and bad, there are holy and inspired individuals; citizens of a well-ordered city should seek them out, traveling far and wide to better establish and improve their own state’s laws. 'What’s the best way to achieve this?' First, the traveler to foreign lands should be between fifty and sixty years old and a respected citizen, especially in military matters. Upon returning, he will report to the Nocturnal Council, which meets from dawn until sunrise. This council includes the priests who have won awards for virtue, the ten oldest guardians of the law, and the current and former directors of education; each member can bring a younger friend of their choice, aged between thirty and forty. This assembled group will review their own laws and those of other states, gathering relevant information. Any findings approved by the elder council members will be studied diligently by the younger ones, who will be closely monitored by the rest of the citizens and will receive honor or dishonor based on their merit. This assembly will hear from the foreign traveler about what he learned during his journeys or what he observed firsthand. If he doesn’t improve, at least commend him for his effort; and if he does improve, he should receive even greater praise and honor after death. But if his travels lead him to decline, he should be barred from speaking to anyone; if he complies, he may live as a private citizen, but if he tries to introduce changes to education or laws, he should face death.
Next, as to the reception of strangers. Of these there are four classes:—First, merchants, who, like birds of passage, find their way over the sea at a certain time of the year, that they may exhibit their wares. These should be received in markets and public buildings without the city, by proper officers, who shall see that justice is done them, and shall also watch against any political designs which they may entertain; no more intercourse is to be held with them than is absolutely necessary. Secondly, there are the visitors at the festivals, who shall be entertained by hospitable persons at the temples for a reasonable time; the priests and ministers of the temples shall have a care of them. In small suits brought by them or against them, the priests shall be the judges; but in the more important, the wardens of the agora. Thirdly, there are ambassadors of foreign states; these are to be honourably received by the generals and commanders, and placed under the care of the Prytanes and of the persons with whom they are lodged. Fourthly, there is the philosophical stranger, who, like our own spectators, from time to time goes to see what is rich and rare in foreign countries. Like them he must be fifty years of age: and let him go unbidden to the doors of the wise and rich, that he may learn from them, and they from him.
Next, regarding how to welcome strangers, there are four types: First, there are merchants, who, like migratory birds, travel across the sea at certain times of the year to display their goods. They should be welcomed in markets and public buildings outside the city by designated officials who will ensure they are treated fairly and also guard against any political intentions they might have; no more interaction should be allowed than absolutely necessary. Secondly, there are the festival visitors, who should be hosted by generous individuals at the temples for a reasonable period; the priests and temple attendants will take care of them. For minor disputes they bring or face, the priests will act as judges, but for more significant issues, the attendants of the agora will handle them. Thirdly, there are ambassadors from foreign nations; they should be treated with honor by the generals and commanders and placed under the care of the Prytanes and those in whose homes they stay. Fourthly, there are philosophical travelers, who, like our own spectators, occasionally travel to explore what is valuable and unique in other lands. Like them, they should be at least fifty years old, and they may visit the homes of the wise and wealthy without an invitation, sharing knowledge with each other.
These are the rules of missions into foreign countries, and of the reception of strangers. Let Zeus, the God of hospitality, be honoured; and let not the stranger be excluded, as in Egypt, from meals and sacrifices, or, (as at Sparta,) driven away by savage proclamations.
These are the rules for missions in foreign countries and how to welcome strangers. Let Zeus, the God of hospitality, be respected; and let no stranger be turned away, like in Egypt, from meals and sacrifices, or, as in Sparta, chased off by harsh declarations.
Let guarantees be clearly given in writing and before witnesses. The number of witnesses shall be three when the sum lent is under a thousand drachmas, or five when above. The agent and principal at a fraudulent sale shall be equally liable. He who would search another man's house for anything must swear that he expects to find it there; and he shall enter naked, or having on a single garment and no girdle. The owner shall place at the disposal of the searcher all his goods, sealed as well as unsealed; if he refuse, he shall be liable in double the value of the property, if it shall prove to be in his possession. If the owner be absent, the searcher may counter-seal the property which is under seal, and place watchers. If the owner remain absent more than five days, the searcher shall take the magistrates, and open the sealed property, and seal it up again in their presence. The recovery of goods disputed, except in the case of lands and houses, (about which there can be no dispute in our state), is to be barred by time. The public and unimpeached use of anything for a year in the city, or for five years in the country, or the private possession and domestic use for three years in the city, or for ten years in the country, is to give a right of ownership. But if the possessor have the property in a foreign country, there shall be no bar as to time. The proceedings of any trial are to be void, in which either the parties or the witnesses, whether bond or free, have been prevented by violence from attending:—if a slave be prevented, the suit shall be invalid; or if a freeman, he who is guilty of the violence shall be imprisoned for a year, and shall also be liable to an action for kidnapping. If one competitor forcibly prevents another from attending at the games, the other may be inscribed as victor in the temples, and the first, whether victor or not, shall be liable to an action for damages. The receiver of stolen goods shall undergo the same punishment as the thief. The receiver of an exile shall be punished with death. A man ought to have the same friends and enemies as his country; and he who makes war or peace for himself shall be put to death. And if a party in the state make war or peace, their leaders shall be indicted by the generals, and, if convicted, they shall be put to death. The ministers and officers of a country ought not to receive gifts, even as the reward of good deeds. He who disobeys shall die.
Let guarantees be clearly given in writing and witnessed. The number of witnesses should be three when the amount lent is under a thousand drachmas, or five when it's above that. Both the agent and the principal in a fraudulent sale will be equally responsible. Anyone who wants to search someone else's house for something must swear they expect to find it there; they must enter without clothes or wearing only a single garment without a belt. The owner must provide the searcher access to all their goods, both sealed and unsealed; if they refuse, they will be liable for double the value of the property if it is found in their possession. If the owner is absent, the searcher may seal the sealed property again and assign watchers. If the owner remains absent for more than five days, the searcher must bring the magistrates to open the sealed property and reseal it in their presence. The recovery of disputed goods, except for land and houses (which cannot be disputed in our state), is subject to time limits. Public and uncontested use of anything for one year in the city, or five years in the countryside, or private possession and domestic use for three years in the city, or ten years in the countryside, grants a right of ownership. However, if the possessor has the property in a foreign country, there is no time limit. Any trial proceedings will be void if either party or the witnesses, whether enslaved or free, are prevented from attending by violence: if a slave is prevented, the case will be invalid; or if a free person is prevented, the one guilty of the violence will be imprisoned for a year and may also be liable for kidnapping charges. If one competitor forcibly prevents another from attending the games, the other may be declared the victor in the temples, and the first, whether victorious or not, will be liable for damages. The receiver of stolen goods will face the same punishment as the thief. The receiver of an exiled person will be punished with death. A person should have the same friends and enemies as their country; anyone who makes war or peace for themselves will be put to death. If a faction in the state makes war or peace, their leaders will be indicted by the generals, and if convicted, they will be put to death. The ministers and officials of a country should not accept gifts, even as rewards for good deeds. Anyone who disobeys will face death.
With a view to taxation a man should have his property and income valued: and the government may, at their discretion, levy the tax upon the annual return, or take a portion of the whole.
With the purpose of taxation, a person should have their property and income assessed: and the government may, at their discretion, impose the tax on the annual earnings, or take a part of the total.
The good man will offer moderate gifts to the Gods; his land or hearth cannot be offered, because they are already consecrated to all Gods. Gold and silver, which arouse envy, and ivory, which is taken from the dead body of an animal, are unsuitable offerings; iron and brass are materials of war. Wood and stone of a single piece may be offered; also woven work which has not occupied one woman more than a month in making. White is a colour which is acceptable to the Gods; figures of birds and similar offerings are the best of gifts, but they must be such as the painter can execute in a day.
A good person will give modest gifts to the Gods; their land or home can't be offered because they're already dedicated to all the Gods. Gold and silver, which can cause jealousy, and ivory, which comes from a dead animal, are inappropriate gifts; iron and brass are materials of war. Solid wood and stone materials can be offered, as well as woven items that take no more than a month for one woman to create. White is a color that the Gods appreciate; bird figures and similar offerings are the best gifts, but they should be things the artist can complete in a day.
Next concerning lawsuits. Judges, or rather arbiters, may be agreed upon by the plaintiff and defendant; and if no decision is obtained from them, their fellow-tribesmen shall judge. At this stage there shall be an increase of the penalty: the defendant, if he be cast, shall pay a fifth more than the damages claimed. If he further persist, and appeal a second time, the case shall be heard before the select judges; and he shall pay, if defeated, the penalty and half as much again. And the pursuer, if on the first appeal he is defeated, shall pay one fifth of the damages claimed by him; and if on the second, one half. Other matters relating to trials, such as the assignment of judges to courts, the times of sitting, the number of judges, the modes of pleading and procedure, as we have already said, may be determined by younger legislators.
Next, let's talk about lawsuits. The plaintiff and defendant can agree on judges, or arbiters; if they can't reach a decision, their fellow community members will step in to judge. At this point, there will be an increase in the penalty: if the defendant loses, they will have to pay an additional fifth of the damages claimed. If the defendant continues to fight and appeals a second time, the case will go before select judges, and if they lose again, they will owe the penalty plus half of that amount again. If the plaintiff loses on the first appeal, they must pay one fifth of the damages they claimed, and if they lose on the second appeal, they owe half of that. Other aspects of trials, like assigning judges to courts, scheduling sessions, the number of judges, and the ways of making pleas and procedures, as we’ve mentioned before, can be settled by younger lawmakers.
These are to be the rules of private courts. As regards public courts, many states have excellent modes of procedure which may serve for models; these, when duly tested by experience, should be ratified and made permanent by us.
These will be the rules for private courts. As for public courts, many states have effective procedures that could serve as models; these, once proven effective through experience, should be approved and established permanently by us.
Let the judge be accomplished in the laws. He should possess writings about them, and make a study of them; for laws are the highest instrument of mental improvement, and derive their name from mind (nous, nomos). They afford a measure of all censure and praise, whether in verse or prose, in conversation or in books, and are an antidote to the vain disputes of men and their equally vain acquiescence in each other's opinions. The just judge, who imbibes their spirit, makes the city and himself to stand upright. He establishes justice for the good, and cures the tempers of the bad, if they can be cured; but denounces death, which is the only remedy, to the incurable, the threads of whose life cannot be reversed.
Let the judge be knowledgeable about the laws. He should have writings on them and study them; laws are the greatest tool for mental development and get their name from mind (nous, nomos). They provide a standard for all criticism and praise, whether in poetry or prose, during conversations or in books, and serve as a remedy for the pointless arguments of people and their equally pointless acceptance of each other’s views. The fair judge, who embodies their essence, helps the city and himself to thrive. He upholds justice for the good and tries to fix the attitudes of the bad if they can be fixed; but he condemns death, which is the only solution, for the incurable, whose lives cannot be changed.
When the suits of the year are completed, execution is to follow. The court is to award to the plaintiff the property of the defendant, if he is cast, reserving to him only his lot of land. If the plaintiff is not satisfied within a month, the court shall put into his hands the property of the defendant. If the defendant fails in payment to the amount of a drachma, he shall lose the use and protection of the court; or if he rebel against the authority of the court, he shall be brought before the guardians of the law, and if found guilty he shall be put to death.
Once the lawsuits of the year are resolved, execution will take place. The court will grant the plaintiff the defendant's property if the defendant loses, keeping only his plot of land. If the plaintiff isn't satisfied within a month, the court will hand over the defendant's property to him. If the defendant fails to pay even a drachma, he will lose the benefits and protection of the court; if he defies the court's authority, he will be brought before the law guardians, and if found guilty, he will be sentenced to death.
Man having been born, educated, having begotten and brought up children, and gone to law, fulfils the debt of nature. The rites which are to be celebrated after death in honour of the Gods above and below shall be determined by the Interpreters. The dead shall be buried in uncultivated places, where they will be out of the way and do least injury to the living. For no one either in life or after death has any right to deprive other men of the sustenance which mother earth provides for them. No sepulchral mound is to be piled higher than five men can raise it in five days, and the grave-stone shall not be larger than is sufficient to contain an inscription of four heroic verses. The dead are only to be exposed for three days, which is long enough to test the reality of death. The legislator will instruct the people that the body is a mere shadow or image, and that the soul, which is our true being, is gone to give an account of herself before the Gods below. When they hear this, the good are full of hope, and the evil are terrified. It is also said that not much can be done for any one after death. And therefore while in life all man should be helped by their kindred to pass their days justly and holily, that they may depart in peace. When a man loses a son or a brother, he should consider that the beloved one has gone away to fulfil his destiny in another place, and should not waste money over his lifeless remains. Let the law then order a moderate funeral of five minae for the first class, of three for the second, of two for the third, of one for the fourth. One of the guardians of the law, to be selected by the relatives, shall assist them in arranging the affairs of the deceased. There would be a want of delicacy in prescribing that there should or should not be mourning for the dead. But, at any rate, such mourning is to be confined to the house; there must be no processions in the streets, and the dead body shall be taken out of the city before daybreak. Regulations about other forms of burial and about the non-burial of parricides and other sacrilegious persons have already been laid down. The work of legislation is therefore nearly completed; its end will be finally accomplished when we have provided for the continuance of the state.
A person, after being born, educated, having children, and dealing with legal matters, fulfills the responsibilities of life. The rituals to be performed after death in honor of the gods will be decided by the interpreters. The deceased should be buried in uninhabited areas, away from others, causing the least disruption to the living. No one, in life or after death, has the right to take away the resources that the earth provides for others. No burial mound should be taller than what five people can build in five days, and the tombstone should only be big enough for a four-line inscription. The deceased may only be displayed for three days, which is sufficient to confirm their death. The laws will inform people that the body is just a shadow or image, while the soul, which represents our true self, has moved on to account for itself before the gods below. When people understand this, the good feel hopeful, while the wicked feel fear. It is also said that little can be done for anyone after death. Therefore, while alive, each person should receive support from their family to live justly and righteously, so they can leave in peace. When a person loses a son or brother, they should think of their loved one as having gone to fulfill their destiny in another realm and should not spend recklessly on their lifeless body. The law should dictate a modest funeral costing five minae for the first class, three for the second, two for the third, and one for the fourth. One of the law guardians, chosen by the relatives, will help manage the affairs of the deceased. It would be insensitive to dictate whether mourning should occur. However, any mourning should be kept within the home; there should be no processions in the streets, and the body must be removed from the city before dawn. Regulations regarding other burial methods and the non-burial of parricides and other sacrilegious individuals have already been established. The work of legislation is thus nearly finished; it will be fully accomplished when we ensure the continuation of the state.
Do you remember the names of the Fates? Lachesis, the giver of the lots, is the first of them; Clotho, the spinster, the second; Atropos, the unchanging one, is the third and last, who makes the threads of the web irreversible. And we too want to make our laws irreversible, for the unchangeable quality in them will be the salvation of the state, and the source of health and order in the bodies and souls of our citizens. 'But can such a quality be implanted?' I think that it may; and at any rate we must try; for, after all our labour, to have been piling up a fabric which has no foundation would be too ridiculous. 'What foundation would you lay?' We have already instituted an assembly which was composed of the ten oldest guardians of the law, and secondly, of those who had received prizes of virtue, and thirdly, of the travellers who had gone abroad to enquire into the laws of other countries. Moreover, each of the members was to choose a young man, of not less than thirty years of age, to be approved by the rest; and they were to meet at dawn, when all the world is at leisure. This assembly will be an anchor to the vessel of state, and provide the means of permanence; for the constitutions of states, like all other things, have their proper saviours, which are to them what the head and soul are to the living being. 'How do you mean?' Mind in the soul, and sight and hearing in the head, or rather, the perfect union of mind and sense, may be justly called every man's salvation. 'Certainly.' Yes; but of what nature is this union? In the case of a ship, for example, the senses of the sailors are added to the intelligence of the pilot, and the two together save the ship and the men in the ship. Again, the physician and the general have their objects; and the object of the one is health, of the other victory. States, too, have their objects, and the ruler must understand, first, their nature, and secondly, the means of attaining them, whether in laws or men. The state which is wanting in this knowledge cannot be expected to be wise when the time for action arrives. Now what class or institution is there in our state which has such a saving power? 'I suspect that you are referring to the Nocturnal Council.' Yes, to that council which is to have all virtue, and which should aim directly at the mark. 'Very true.' The inconsistency of legislation in most states is not surprising, when the variety of their objects is considered. One of them makes their rule of justice the government of a class; another aims at wealth; another at freedom, or at freedom and power; and some who call themselves philosophers maintain that you should seek for all of them at once. But our object is unmistakeably virtue, and virtue is of four kinds. 'Yes; and we said that mind is the chief and ruler of the three other kinds of virtue and of all else.' True, Cleinias; and now, having already declared the object which is present to the mind of the pilot, the general, the physician, we will interrogate the mind of the statesman. Tell me, I say, as the physician and general have told us their object, what is the object of the statesman. Can you tell me? 'We cannot.' Did we not say that there are four virtues—courage, wisdom, and two others, all of which are called by the common name of virtue, and are in a sense one? 'Certainly we did.' The difficulty is, not in understanding the differences of the virtues, but in apprehending their unity. Why do we call virtue, which is a single thing, by the two names of wisdom and courage? The reason is that courage is concerned with fear, and is found both in children and in brutes; for the soul may be courageous without reason, but no soul was, or ever will be, wise without reason. 'That is true.' I have explained to you the difference, and do you in return explain to me the unity. But first let us consider whether any one who knows the name of a thing without the definition has any real knowledge of it. Is not such knowledge a disgrace to a man of sense, especially where great and glorious truths are concerned? and can any subject be more worthy of the attention of our legislators than the four virtues of which we are speaking—courage, temperance, justice, wisdom? Ought not the magistrates and officers of the state to instruct the citizens in the nature of virtue and vice, instead of leaving them to be taught by some chance poet or sophist? A city which is without instruction suffers the usual fate of cities in our day. What then shall we do? How shall we perfect the ideas of our guardians about virtue? how shall we give our state a head and eyes? 'Yes, but how do you apply the figure?' The city will be the body or trunk; the best of our young men will mount into the head or acropolis and be our eyes; they will look about them, and inform the elders, who are the mind and use the younger men as their instruments: together they will save the state. Shall this be our constitution, or shall all be educated alike, and the special training be given up? 'That is impossible.' Let us then endeavour to attain to some more exact idea of education. Did we not say that the true artist or guardian ought to have an eye, not only to the many, but to the one, and to order all things with a view to the one? Can there be any more philosophical speculation than how to reduce many things which are unlike to one idea? 'Perhaps not.' Say rather, 'Certainly not.' And the rulers of our divine state ought to have an exact knowledge of the common principle in courage, temperance, justice, wisdom, which is called by the name of virtue; and unless we know whether virtue is one or many, we shall hardly know what virtue is. Shall we contrive some means of engrafting this knowledge on our state, or give the matter up? 'Anything rather than that.' Let us begin by making an agreement. 'By all means, if we can.' Well, are we not agreed that our guardians ought to know, not only how the good and the honourable are many, but also how they are one? 'Yes, certainly.' The true guardian of the laws ought to know their truth, and should also be able to interpret and execute them? 'He should.' And is there any higher knowledge than the knowledge of the existence and power of the Gods? The people may be excused for following tradition; but the guardian must be able to give a reason of the faith which is in him. And there are two great evidences of religion—the priority of the soul and the order of the heavens. For no man of sense, when he contemplates the universe, will be likely to substitute necessity for reason and will. Those who maintain that the sun and the stars are inanimate beings are utterly wrong in their opinions. The men of a former generation had a suspicion, which has been confirmed by later thinkers, that things inanimate could never without mind have attained such scientific accuracy; and some (Anaxagoras) even in those days ventured to assert that mind had ordered all things in heaven; but they had no idea of the priority of mind, and they turned the world, or more properly themselves, upside down, and filled the universe with stones, and earth, and other inanimate bodies. This led to great impiety, and the poets said many foolish things against the philosophers, whom they compared to 'yelping she-dogs,' besides making other abusive remarks. No man can now truly worship the Gods who does not believe that the soul is eternal, and prior to the body, and the ruler of all bodies, and does not perceive also that there is mind in the stars; or who has not heard the connexion of these things with music, and has not harmonized them with manners and laws, giving a reason of things which are matters of reason. He who is unable to acquire this knowledge, as well as the ordinary virtues of a citizen, can only be a servant, and not a ruler in the state.
Do you remember the names of the Fates? Lachesis, the one who decides destinies, is the first; Clotho, the spinner, is the second; and Atropos, the one who makes it all irreversible, is the third and last. We also want to create laws that are permanent because their unchanging nature will be the salvation of the state and the source of health and order for our citizens' bodies and souls. 'But can we truly make them permanent?' I believe we can; at the very least, we must try. After all our efforts, it would be ridiculous to build something without a foundation. 'What foundation do you propose?' We have already established an assembly made up of the ten oldest law guardians, those who have been awarded for their virtues, and travelers who have gone abroad to study laws from other places. Additionally, each member is to choose a young man, at least thirty years old, to be approved by the group, and they will meet at dawn when everyone is free. This assembly will serve as the anchor for the state and ensure its lasting stability because the constitutions of states, like everything else, have their saviors, which are to them what the head and soul are to a living being. 'What do you mean?' The mind in the soul, and sight and hearing in the head—or, rather, the perfect combination of mind and senses—can be rightly called every person's salvation. 'Absolutely.' But what about the nature of this unity? In a ship, for instance, the senses of the sailors work alongside the intelligence of the captain, and together, they save the ship and everyone on board. Similarly, a physician and a general have their focus; for one it’s health, and for the other, victory. States also have their goals, and a ruler must first understand what those goals are and then find ways to achieve them, whether through laws or people. A state lacking this understanding cannot be expected to act wisely when the time comes. Now, what class or institution in our state possesses that saving power? 'I suspect you are talking about the Nocturnal Council.' Yes, that council, which should embody all virtues and aim directly at the target. 'Very true.' It is no surprise that legislation is inconsistent in most states when you consider the varied objectives they pursue. Some are governed by a class, others aim for wealth, some for freedom, or a combination of freedom and power; and there are those who call themselves philosophers but insist you should pursue all these goals simultaneously. However, our objective is clearly virtue, which comes in four types. 'Yes; and we agreed that the mind is the chief guide of the other three virtues, as well as everything else.' Correct, Cleinias; now, having identified the objective of the pilot, the general, and the physician, let’s explore the mind of the statesman. Tell me, just as the physician and the general declared their objectives, what is the goal of the statesman? Can you tell me? 'We cannot.' Didn’t we agree that there are four virtues—courage, wisdom, and two others—collectively referred to as virtue and essentially one? 'Certainly we did.' The challenge lies not in distinguishing between the various virtues but in understanding their unity. Why do we refer to virtue, which is singular, using the two terms wisdom and courage? The reason is that courage relates to fear and is found in both children and animals; a soul can display courage without reason, but no soul has ever been or will ever be wise without reason. 'That's true.' I have clarified the difference; now please clarify the unity for me. But first, let’s consider whether any person who knows the name of something but not its definition truly knows it. Isn’t that kind of knowledge shameful for someone sensible, especially when dealing with significant and valuable truths? And can any topic be more deserving of the attention of our legislators than the four virtues we are discussing—courage, temperance, justice, wisdom? Shouldn't the magistrates and officials of the state educate citizens about virtue and vice instead of leaving it to chance poets or sophists? A city that lacks education suffers the usual consequences that modern cities face. So what should we do? How can we refine our guardians' understanding of virtue? How can we give our state direction and clarity? 'Yes, but how does this metaphor apply?' The city will represent the body; our best young men will rise to become the head, or acropolis, and serve as our eyes; they will observe and inform the elders, who represent the mind and will use the younger men as their instruments: together, they will support the state. Should this be our form of governance, or should we educate everyone the same, abandoning specialized training? 'That’s not feasible.'Then let us strive to develop a more precise concept of education. Did we not agree that the true artist or guardian should focus not only on the many but on the one, organizing all things with that singular vision? Is there any more philosophical inquiry than how to unify many disparate things under one idea? 'Perhaps not.' More accurately, 'Definitely not.' The rulers of our ideal state must deeply understand the common principle in courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom, which is referred to as virtue; unless we know whether virtue is singular or multiple, we will hardly grasp what virtue truly is. Shall we find a way to instill this knowledge in our state or abandon the endeavor? 'Anything but that.' Let's start by making an agreement. 'Certainly, if we can.' Well, do we not agree that our guardians should understand how the good and honorable can be both many and one? 'Yes, definitely.' The true guardian of the laws should know their truth and be able to interpret and implement them. 'Absolutely.' Is there any greater knowledge than understanding the existence and power of the Gods? While the people may be forgiven for sticking to tradition, the guardian must be able to explain the faith within him. There are two significant pieces of evidence for religion—the primacy of the soul and the order of the heavens. For no sensible person contemplating the universe would replace reason and will with mere necessity. Those who argue that the sun and stars are lifeless beings are profoundly mistaken. Previous generations suspected, and later thinkers confirmed, that inanimate things could not have achieved such scientific precision without intellect; some even claimed (like Anaxagoras) that mind ordered everything in the heavens; but they lacked understanding of the priority of mind and turned the world—or more accurately, themselves—upside down, filling the universe with rocks, soil, and other lifeless matter. This led to great irreverence, and poets derided philosophers, calling them ‘yelping she-dogs’ and making other disparaging comments. No one can truly worship the Gods who does not believe that the soul is eternal, that it precedes the body and rules all bodies, and who does not perceive the presence of mind in the stars; nor who has not recognized the connection of these concepts with music and harmonized them with morals and laws, reasoning about matters that are logical. Anyone unable to acquire this understanding, along with the basic virtues of a citizen, can only be a servant, not a ruler in the state.
Let us then add another law to the effect that the Nocturnal Council shall be a guard set for the salvation of the state. 'Very good.' To establish this will be our aim, and I hope that others besides myself will assist. 'Let us proceed along the road in which God seems to guide us.' We cannot, Megillus and Cleinias, anticipate the details which will hereafter be needed; they must be supplied by experience. 'What do you mean?' First of all a register will have to be made of all those whose age, character, or education would qualify them to be guardians. The subjects which they are to learn, and the order in which they are to be learnt, are mysteries which cannot be explained beforehand, but not mysteries in any other sense. 'If that is the case, what is to be done?' We must stake our all on a lucky throw, and I will share the risk by stating my views on education. And I would have you, Cleinias, who are the founder of the Magnesian state, and will obtain the greatest glory if you succeed, and will at least be praised for your courage, if you fail, take especial heed of this matter. If we can only establish the Nocturnal Council, we will hand over the city to its keeping; none of the present company will hesitate about that. Our dream will then become a reality; and our citizens, if they are carefully chosen and well educated, will be saviours and guardians such as the world hitherto has never seen.
Let’s then add another rule stating that the Nocturnal Council will act as a safeguard for the well-being of the state. 'Sounds great.' Our goal will be to establish this, and I hope that others beside me will help. 'Let’s move forward on the path that seems to be guided by a higher power.' We can't, Megillus and Cleinias, predict the specifics that will be needed later; those will come from experience. 'What do you mean?' First, we need to create a list of everyone whose age, character, or education qualifies them to be guardians. The subjects they need to learn, and the order in which they should learn them, are things we can’t explain ahead of time, but they aren't mysteries in any other way. 'If that’s the case, what should we do?' We have to put everything on the line for a chance at success, and I'm willing to share the risk by sharing my thoughts on education. And I would urge you, Cleinias, as the founder of the Magnesian state, who will gain the most honor if you succeed and at least earn praise for your bravery if you fail, to pay special attention to this matter. If we can successfully establish the Nocturnal Council, we’ll entrust the city to them; no one here will doubt that. Our vision will then turn into reality, and our citizens, if they are selected carefully and educated well, will be protectors and guardians like the world has never seen before.
The want of completeness in the Laws becomes more apparent in the later books. There is less arrangement in them, and the transitions are more abrupt from one subject to another. Yet they contain several noble passages, such as the 'prelude to the discourse concerning the honour and dishonour of parents,' or the picture of the dangers attending the 'friendly intercourse of young men and maidens with one another,' or the soothing remonstrance which is addressed to the dying man respecting his right to do what he will with his own, or the fine description of the burial of the dead. The subject of religion in Book X is introduced as a prelude to offences against the Gods, and this portion of the work appears to be executed in Plato's best manner.
The lack of completeness in the Laws becomes more obvious in the later books. There's less organized structure, and the shifts between topics feel more abrupt. However, they include several remarkable passages, like the 'introduction to the discussion about the respect and disrespect shown to parents,' or the depiction of the risks involved in the 'friendly relationships between young men and women,' or the comforting advice given to a dying person about their right to manage their own life, or the beautiful portrayal of a burial. The topic of religion in Book X is presented as a lead-up to offenses against the Gods, and this section of the work seems to reflect Plato's best writing style.
In the last four books, several questions occur for consideration: among them are (I) the detection and punishment of offences; (II) the nature of the voluntary and involuntary; (III) the arguments against atheism, and against the opinion that the Gods have no care of human affairs; (IV) the remarks upon retail trade; (V) the institution of the Nocturnal Council.
In the last four books, several questions come up for discussion: among them are (I) the detection and punishment of offenses; (II) the nature of the voluntary and involuntary; (III) the arguments against atheism, and against the belief that the Gods don't care about human affairs; (IV) comments on retail trade; (V) the establishment of the Nocturnal Council.
I. A weak point in the Laws of Plato is the amount of inquisition into private life which is to be made by the rulers. The magistrate is always watching and waylaying the citizens. He is constantly to receive information against improprieties of life. Plato does not seem to be aware that espionage can only have a negative effect. He has not yet discovered the boundary line which parts the domain of law from that of morality or social life. Men will not tell of one another; nor will he ever be the most honoured citizen, who gives the most frequent information about offenders to the magistrates.
I. A weak point in Plato's Laws is the level of scrutiny into private lives that the rulers are expected to exert. The magistrates are always watching and trying to catch citizens off guard. They are constantly seeking information about immoral behavior. Plato doesn’t seem to realize that spying can only lead to negative outcomes. He hasn’t yet identified the line that separates the realm of law from that of morality or social life. People won’t report on each other; nor will the most respected citizen be the one who frequently informs the magistrates about offenders.
As in some writers of fiction, so also in philosophers, we may observe the effect of age. Plato becomes more conservative as he grows older, and he would govern the world entirely by men like himself, who are above fifty years of age; for in them he hopes to find a principle of stability. He does not remark that, in destroying the freedom he is destroying also the life of the State. In reducing all the citizens to rule and measure, he would have been depriving the Magnesian colony of those great men 'whose acquaintance is beyond all price;' and he would have found that in the worst-governed Hellenic State, there was more of a carriere ouverte for extraordinary genius and virtue than in his own.
Just like some fiction writers, we can see that philosophers are also affected by age. Plato becomes more conservative as he gets older, wanting to run the world entirely with men like him, who are over fifty; he believes they offer a sense of stability. He doesn’t realize that by taking away freedom, he’s also harming the life of the State. By wanting to control all citizens with strict rules, he would be robbing the Magnesian colony of those exceptional individuals "whose friendship is priceless;" and he would discover that, even in the poorly governed Hellenic states, there was more opportunity for extraordinary talent and virtue than in his own.
Plato has an evident dislike of the Athenian dicasteries; he prefers a few judges who take a leading part in the conduct of trials to a great number who only listen in silence. He allows of two appeals—in each case however with an increase of the penalty. Modern jurists would disapprove of the redress of injustice being purchased only at an increasing risk; though indirectly the burden of legal expenses, which seems to have been little felt among the Athenians, has a similar effect. The love of litigation, which is a remnant of barbarism quite as much as a corruption of civilization, and was innate in the Athenian people, is diminished in the new state by the imposition of severe penalties. If persevered in, it is to be punished with death.
Plato clearly dislikes the Athenian courts; he favors a few judges who actively participate in trials over many who just sit and listen. He allows for two appeals, but in each case, the penalty increases. Modern legal experts would not agree with the idea that injustice can only be corrected at a greater risk; however, the burden of legal fees, which didn't seem to be a significant issue for the Athenians, has a similar effect. The Athenian people's natural tendency towards lawsuits—a sign of both barbarism and a flaw in civilization—is reduced in the new state because of strict penalties. If someone persists in litigation, they face a death sentence.
In the Laws murder and homicide besides being crimes, are also pollutions. Regarded from this point of view, the estimate of such offences is apt to depend on accidental circumstances, such as the shedding of blood, and not on the real guilt of the offender or the injury done to society. They are measured by the horror which they arouse in a barbarous age. For there is a superstition in law as well as in religion, and the feelings of a primitive age have a traditional hold on the mass of the people. On the other hand, Plato is innocent of the barbarity which would visit the sins of the fathers upon the children, and he is quite aware that punishment has an eye to the future, and not to the past. Compared with that of most European nations in the last century his penal code, though sometimes capricious, is reasonable and humane.
In the Laws, murder and homicide, besides being crimes, are also considered pollutions. Viewed from this perspective, the assessment of such offenses often depends on random factors, like the act of shedding blood, rather than on the actual guilt of the offender or the harm done to society. They are judged by the horror they provoke in a barbaric age. There's a kind of superstition in law, just like in religion, and the emotions from a primitive era still strongly influence the general populace. On the flip side, Plato does not share the cruelty of punishing children for their parents' sins, and he understands that punishment should focus on the future, not the past. Compared to most European nations in the last century, his penal code, while sometimes arbitrary, is more reasonable and humane.
A defect in Plato's criminal jurisprudence is his remission of the punishment when the homicide has obtained the forgiveness of the murdered person; as if crime were a personal affair between individuals, and not an offence against the State. There is a ridiculous disproportion in his punishments. Because a slave may fairly receive a blow for stealing one fig or one bunch of grapes, or a tradesman for selling adulterated goods to the value of one drachma, it is rather hard upon the slave that he should receive as many blows as he has taken grapes or figs, or upon the tradesman who has sold adulterated goods to the value of a thousand drachmas that he should receive a thousand blows.
A flaw in Plato's criminal justice system is that he lets the punishment slide if the person who was killed has forgiven the murderer; as if crime were just a private issue between people, rather than a crime against the State. There's an absurd imbalance in his punishments. It seems fair for a slave to get a punishment for stealing a single fig or a bunch of grapes, or for a merchant to be penalized for selling fake goods worth one drachma, but it’s pretty harsh for a slave to get as many strikes as the number of grapes or figs he stole, or for a merchant who sold fake goods worth a thousand drachmas to receive a thousand strikes.
II. But before punishment can be inflicted at all, the legislator must determine the nature of the voluntary and involuntary. The great question of the freedom of the will, which in modern times has been worn threadbare with purely abstract discussion, was approached both by Plato and Aristotle—first, from the judicial; secondly, from the sophistical point of view. They were puzzled by the degrees and kinds of crime; they observed also that the law only punished hurts which are inflicted by a voluntary agent on an involuntary patient.
II. But before any punishment can be given, the lawmaker must figure out what voluntary and involuntary mean. The big question about free will, which has been overanalyzed in modern times with abstract debates, was addressed by both Plato and Aristotle—first from a legal perspective, and second from a logical angle. They were confused by the different degrees and types of crime; they also noted that the law only punishes harm caused by a voluntary agent to an involuntary victim.
In attempting to distinguish between hurt and injury, Plato says that mere hurt is not injury; but that a benefit when done in a wrong spirit may sometimes injure, e.g. when conferred without regard to right and wrong, or to the good or evil consequences which may follow. He means to say that the good or evil disposition of the agent is the principle which characterizes actions; and this is not sufficiently described by the terms voluntary and involuntary. You may hurt another involuntarily, and no one would suppose that you had injured him; and you may hurt him voluntarily, as in inflicting punishment—neither is this injury; but if you hurt him from motives of avarice, ambition, or cowardly fear, this is injury. Injustice is also described as the victory of desire or passion or self-conceit over reason, as justice is the subordination of them to reason. In some paradoxical sense Plato is disposed to affirm all injustice to be involuntary; because no man would do injustice who knew that it never paid and could calculate the consequences of what he was doing. Yet, on the other hand, he admits that the distinction of voluntary and involuntary, taken in another and more obvious sense, is the basis of legislation. His conception of justice and injustice is complicated (1) by the want of a distinction between justice and virtue, that is to say, between the quality which primarily regards others, and the quality in which self and others are equally regarded; (2) by the confusion of doing and suffering justice; (3) by the unwillingness to renounce the old Socratic paradox, that evil is involuntary.
In trying to differentiate between hurt and injury, Plato argues that mere hurt isn’t the same as injury; he points out that a benefit offered with the wrong intentions can sometimes cause injury, like when it’s given without considering what’s right or wrong, or the good or bad outcomes that might result. He suggests that the good or bad mindset of the person acting is what defines their actions, and this isn’t fully captured by the terms voluntary and involuntary. You can hurt someone unintentionally, and no one would think you had injured them; conversely, you might hurt someone on purpose, such as through punishment—this too isn’t considered injury. However, if you hurt someone out of greed, ambition, or cowardly fear, that qualifies as injury. Injustice is portrayed as desire, passion, or vanity overpowering reason, while justice is the opposite—bring those feelings under reason’s control. In a somewhat paradoxical way, Plato seems to suggest that all injustice is unintentional, since no one would commit injustice if they knew it never paid off and could foresee the outcomes of their actions. Still, he acknowledges that the distinction between voluntary and involuntary, understood in a clearer way, forms the basis of laws. His views on justice and injustice are complicated by (1) an unclear distinction between justice and virtue, meaning the quality that mostly concerns others and the quality that equally concerns both self and others; (2) the confusion between doing and experiencing justice; and (3) a reluctance to give up the old Socratic idea that evil is unintentional.
III. The Laws rest on a religious foundation; in this respect they bear the stamp of primitive legislation. They do not escape the almost inevitable consequence of making irreligion penal. If laws are based upon religion, the greatest offence against them must be irreligion. Hence the necessity for what in modern language, and according to a distinction which Plato would scarcely have understood, might be termed persecution. But the spirit of persecution in Plato, unlike that of modern religious bodies, arises out of the desire to enforce a true and simple form of religion, and is directed against the superstitions which tend to degrade mankind. Sir Thomas More, in his Utopia, is in favour of tolerating all except the intolerant, though he would not promote to high offices those who disbelieved in the immortality of the soul. Plato has not advanced quite so far as this in the path of toleration. But in judging of his enlightenment, we must remember that the evils of necromancy and divination were far greater than those of intolerance in the ancient world. Human nature is always having recourse to the first; but only when organized into some form of priesthood falls into the other; although in primitive as in later ages the institution of a priesthood may claim probably to be an advance on some form of religion which preceded. The Laws would have rested on a sounder foundation, if Plato had ever distinctly realized to his mind the difference between crime and sin or vice. Of this, as of many other controversies, a clear definition might have been the end. But such a definition belongs to a later age of philosophy.
III. The Laws are based on a religious foundation; in this sense, they reflect the principles of early legislation. They inevitably lead to making irreligion a punishable offense. If laws are rooted in religion, then the biggest offense against them is irreligion. This brings about what can be described in modern terms as persecution. However, Plato's spirit of persecution, unlike that of contemporary religious groups, comes from the intention to enforce a true and straightforward form of religion and targets superstitions that degrade humanity. Sir Thomas More, in his Utopia, supports tolerating everyone except the intolerant, though he wouldn't promote people who do not believe in the immortality of the soul to high offices. Plato hasn't quite reached this level of tolerance. But when evaluating his openness, we should remember that the dangers of necromancy and divination were seen as far worse than intolerance in the ancient world. People often resort to the former, but only when organized into a priesthood do they typically fall into the latter; although, both in ancient times and later, the establishment of a priesthood can be seen as a step forward from some earlier form of religion. The Laws would have had a stronger foundation if Plato had clearly understood the difference between crime and sin or vice. A clear definition of this, as with many other debates, could have been conclusive. But such a definition belongs to a later era of philosophy.
The arguments which Plato uses for the being of a God, have an extremely modern character: first, the consensus gentium; secondly, the argument which has already been adduced in the Phaedrus, of the priority of the self-moved. The answer to those who say that God 'cares not,' is, that He governs by general laws; and that he who takes care of the great will assuredly take care of the small. Plato did not feel, and has not attempted to consider, the difficulty of reconciling the special with the general providence of God. Yet he is on the road to a solution, when he regards the world as a whole, of which all the parts work together towards the final end.
The arguments that Plato presents for the existence of God have a very modern feel: first, the consensus among people; second, the argument already mentioned in the Phaedrus about the idea of a self-moved being. The response to those who claim that God "does not care" is that He governs through general laws, and someone who looks after the big picture will definitely take care of the details. Plato did not address the challenge of reconciling specific with general providence of God. However, he is on the path to a solution when he sees the world as a whole, where all parts work together toward a common goal.
We are surprised to find that the scepticism, which we attribute to young men in our own day, existed then (compare Republic); that the Epicureanism expressed in the line of Horace (borrowed from Lucretius)—
We are surprised to discover that the skepticism we associate with young men today was present back then (see Republic); that the Epicureanism reflected in the line of Horace (taken from Lucretius)—
'Namque Deos didici securum agere aevum,'
'For I have learned that the gods spend their time in peace.'
was already prevalent in the age of Plato; and that the terrors of another world were freely used in order to gain advantages over other men in this. The same objection which struck the Psalmist—'when I saw the prosperity of the wicked'—is supposed to lie at the root of the better sort of unbelief. And the answer is substantially the same which the modern theologian would offer:—that the ways of God in this world cannot be justified unless there be a future state of rewards and punishments. Yet this future state of rewards and punishments is in Plato's view not any addition of happiness or suffering imposed from without, but the permanence of good and evil in the soul: here he is in advance of many modern theologians. The Greek, too, had his difficulty about the existence of evil, which in one solitary passage, remarkable for being inconsistent with his general system, Plato explains, after the Magian fashion, by a good and evil spirit (compare Theaet., Statesman). This passage is also remarkable for being at variance with the general optimism of the Tenth Book—not 'all things are ordered by God for the best,' but some things by a good, others by an evil spirit.
was already common during Plato's time; and the fears of an afterlife were often used to gain leverage over others in this life. The same concern that troubled the Psalmist—'when I saw the prosperity of the wicked'—is thought to be at the heart of more thoughtful skepticism. The response is largely the same as what a contemporary theologian would suggest: that the ways of God in this world can't be justified unless there's an afterlife with rewards and punishments. However, for Plato, this future state of rewards and punishments isn't just about happiness or suffering imposed from outside, but rather the lasting effects of good and evil on the soul: in this regard, he surpasses many modern theologians. The Greek also wrestled with the issue of evil, which in one unique passage—notable for being inconsistent with his overall philosophy—Plato explains in a manner similar to the Magi, attributing it to a good and an evil spirit (see Theaet., Statesman). This passage is also striking because it contrasts with the general optimism of the Tenth Book—not 'all things are ordered by God for the best,' but rather some things by a good spirit, others by an evil spirit.
The Tenth Book of the Laws presents a picture of the state of belief among the Greeks singularly like that of the world in which we live. Plato is disposed to attribute the incredulity of his own age to several causes. First, to the bad effect of mythological tales, of which he retains his disapproval; but he has a weak side for antiquity, and is unwilling, as in the Republic, wholly to proscribe them. Secondly, he remarks the self-conceit of a newly-fledged generation of philosophers, who declare that the sun, moon, and stars, are earth and stones only; and who also maintain that the Gods are made by the laws of the state. Thirdly, he notes a confusion in the minds of men arising out of their misinterpretation of the appearances of the world around them: they do not always see the righteous rewarded and the wicked punished. So in modern times there are some whose infidelity has arisen from doubts about the inspiration of ancient writings; others who have been made unbelievers by physical science, or again by the seemingly political character of religion; while there is a third class to whose minds the difficulty of 'justifying the ways of God to man' has been the chief stumblingblock. Plato is very much out of temper at the impiety of some of his contemporaries; yet he is determined to reason with the victims, as he regards them, of these illusions before he punishes them. His answer to the unbelievers is twofold: first, that the soul is prior to the body; secondly, that the ruler of the universe being perfect has made all things with a view to their perfection. The difficulties arising out of ancient sacred writings were far less serious in the age of Plato than in our own.
The Tenth Book of the Laws shows a view of belief among the Greeks that is surprisingly similar to our world today. Plato attributes the skepticism of his time to several factors. First, he blames the negative impact of mythological stories, which he doesn't approve of, but he has a soft spot for tradition and isn't ready to completely ban them, as he does in the Republic. Second, he points out the arrogance of a new generation of philosophers who claim that the sun, moon, and stars are just earth and stones, and that the Gods are created by state laws. Third, he notices confusion among people due to their misunderstanding of the world around them: they don't always see good people rewarded and bad people punished. Similarly, in modern times, some people's unbelief comes from doubts about the inspiration of ancient texts; others become skeptics due to advances in physical science, or because they perceive religion as having a political angle; while a third group struggles with the challenge of "justifying the ways of God to man." Plato is very frustrated by the irreverence of some people in his time, yet he is determined to address what he sees as misconceptions before he reprimands them. His response to the skeptics is twofold: first, that the soul comes before the body; and second, that the perfect ruler of the universe has created everything with the intention of achieving perfection. The issues stemming from ancient sacred texts were much less severe in Plato's age than they are today.
We too have our popular Epicureanism, which would allow the world to go on as if there were no God. When the belief in Him, whether of ancient or modern times, begins to fade away, men relegate Him, either in theory or practice, into a distant heaven. They do not like expressly to deny God when it is more convenient to forget Him; and so the theory of the Epicurean becomes the practice of mankind in general. Nor can we be said to be free from that which Plato justly considers to be the worst unbelief—of those who put superstition in the place of true religion. For the larger half of Christians continue to assert that the justice of God may be turned aside by gifts, and, if not by the 'odour of fat, and the sacrifice steaming to heaven,' still by another kind of sacrifice placed upon the altar—by masses for the quick and dead, by dispensations, by building churches, by rites and ceremonies—by the same means which the heathen used, taking other names and shapes. And the indifference of Epicureanism and unbelief is in two ways the parent of superstition, partly because it permits, and also because it creates, a necessity for its development in religious and enthusiastic temperaments. If men cannot have a rational belief, they will have an irrational. And hence the most superstitious countries are also at a certain point of civilization the most unbelieving, and the revolution which takes one direction is quickly followed by a reaction in the other. So we may read 'between the lines' ancient history and philosophy into modern, and modern into ancient. Whether we compare the theory of Greek philosophy with the Christian religion, or the practice of the Gentile world with the practice of the Christian world, they will be found to differ more in words and less in reality than we might have supposed. The greater opposition which is sometimes made between them seems to arise chiefly out of a comparison of the ideal of the one with the practice of the other.
We also have our version of Epicureanism, which lets the world continue as if there were no God. When belief in Him, whether from ancient or modern times, starts to fade, people push Him into the background, either in theory or in practice, treating Him as if He’s far away in the heavens. They don’t openly deny God when it’s easier to just forget about Him; so, the idea of the Epicurean becomes the behavior of most people. We can’t say we're free from what Plato rightly sees as the worst kind of disbelief—where superstition takes the place of true religion. Because a significant portion of Christians still believe that God's justice can be swayed by gifts. Even if not by “the odor of fat and the sacrifice steaming to heaven,” they still rely on other forms of sacrifice—like masses for the living and the dead, indulgences, building churches, and various rites and ceremonies—using the same methods that the pagans did but under different names and forms. The indifference of Epicureanism and disbelief leads to superstition in two ways: it allows it to exist and creates a need for it in religious and enthusiastic people. If people can’t have a rational belief, they’ll settle for an irrational one. Thus, the most superstitious countries also tend to be among the most unbelieving at certain stages of civilization, and when one side of this equation shifts, the other quickly reacts. We can see ancient history and philosophy reflected in the modern world and vice versa. Whether we compare the theories of Greek philosophy with Christianity or the practices of the pagan world with those of Christians, the differences seem to be more about words and less about reality than we might think. The greater contrasts that sometimes arise between them mostly come from comparing the ideals of one with the practices of the other.
To the errors of superstition and unbelief Plato opposes the simple and natural truth of religion; the best and highest, whether conceived in the form of a person or a principle—as the divine mind or as the idea of good—is believed by him to be the basis of human life. That all things are working together for good to the good and evil to the evil in this or in some other world to which human actions are transferred, is the sum of his faith or theology. Unlike Socrates, he is absolutely free from superstition. Religion and morality are one and indivisible to him. He dislikes the 'heathen mythology,' which, as he significantly remarks, was not tolerated in Crete, and perhaps (for the meaning of his words is not quite clear) at Sparta. He gives no encouragement to individual enthusiasm; 'the establishment of religion could only be the work of a mighty intellect.' Like the Hebrews, he prohibits private rites; for the avoidance of superstition, he would transfer all worship of the Gods to the public temples. He would not have men and women consecrating the accidents of their lives. He trusts to human punishments and not to divine judgments; though he is not unwilling to repeat the old tradition that certain kinds of dishonesty 'prevent a man from having a family.' He considers that the 'ages of faith' have passed away and cannot now be recalled. Yet he is far from wishing to extirpate the sentiment of religion, which he sees to be common to all mankind—Barbarians as well as Hellenes. He remarks that no one passes through life without, sooner or later, experiencing its power. To which we may add the further remark that the greater the irreligion, the more violent has often been the religious reaction.
To the mistakes of superstition and disbelief, Plato counters with the straightforward and natural truth of religion; he believes that the best and highest, whether viewed as a person or a principle—like the divine mind or the idea of good—forms the foundation of human life. He sums up his belief or theology in the idea that everything works together for the good for the good and for evil for the evil in this world or another to which human actions are transferred. Unlike Socrates, he is completely free from superstition. To him, religion and morality are one and the same. He disapproves of 'heathen mythology,' which he notably points out was not accepted in Crete and possibly (since the meaning of his words is unclear) in Sparta. He does not support individual enthusiasm; 'the establishment of religion could only be the work of a great intellect.' Like the Hebrews, he forbids private rituals; to avoid superstition, he wants all worship of the gods to take place in public temples. He doesn't believe that men and women should consecrate the incidents of their lives. He relies on human punishments rather than divine judgments; though he is open to repeating the old saying that certain types of dishonesty 'prevent a man from having a family.' He thinks that the 'ages of faith' are behind us and cannot be brought back. Yet, he does not wish to eradicate the feeling of religion, which he acknowledges is common to all people—both Barbarians and Hellenes. He observes that no one goes through life without experiencing its influence sooner or later. We might also note that the more pronounced the irreligion, the more intense the religious reaction often is.
It is remarkable that Plato's account of mind at the end of the Laws goes beyond Anaxagoras, and beyond himself in any of his previous writings. Aristotle, in a well-known passage (Met.) which is an echo of the Phaedo, remarks on the inconsistency of Anaxagoras in introducing the agency of mind, and yet having recourse to other and inferior, probably material causes. But Plato makes the further criticism, that the error of Anaxagoras consisted, not in denying the universal agency of mind, but in denying the priority, or, as we should say, the eternity of it. Yet in the Timaeus he had himself allowed that God made the world out of pre-existing materials: in the Statesman he says that there were seeds of evil in the world arising out of the remains of a former chaos which could not be got rid of; and even in the Tenth Book of the Laws he has admitted that there are two souls, a good and evil. In the Meno, the Phaedrus, and the Phaedo, he had spoken of the recovery of ideas from a former state of existence. But now he has attained to a clearer point of view: he has discarded these fancies. From meditating on the priority of the human soul to the body, he has learnt the nature of soul absolutely. The power of the best, of which he gave an intimation in the Phaedo and in the Republic, now, as in the Philebus, takes the form of an intelligence or person. He no longer, like Anaxagoras, supposes mind to be introduced at a certain time into the world and to give order to a pre-existing chaos, but to be prior to the chaos, everlasting and evermoving, and the source of order and intelligence in all things. This appears to be the last form of Plato's religious philosophy, which might almost be summed up in the words of Kant, 'the starry heaven above and the moral law within.' Or rather, perhaps, 'the starry heaven above and mind prior to the world.'
It's impressive that Plato's discussion of the mind at the end of the Laws goes further than Anaxagoras and exceeds anything he had written before. Aristotle, in a famous passage (Met.), which reflects the Phaedo, notes the inconsistency of Anaxagoras in introducing the concept of mind while still relying on other, lesser, likely material causes. However, Plato adds that Anaxagoras's mistake was not in rejecting the universal influence of the mind, but in denying its primacy, or what we would now call its eternity. Yet in the Timaeus, he himself conceded that God created the world from pre-existing materials; in the Statesman, he mentions that there were seeds of evil in the world stemming from leftover chaos that couldn't be eliminated; and even in the Tenth Book of the Laws, he recognized the existence of two souls, one good and the other evil. In the Meno, the Phaedrus, and the Phaedo, he discussed the recovery of ideas from a previous existence. But now he has reached a clearer perspective: he has moved beyond these notions. By contemplating the priority of the human soul over the body, he has understood the essence of the soul definitively. The power of the best, which he hinted at in the Phaedo and in the Republic, now resembles an intelligence or person, as seen in the Philebus. He no longer believes, like Anaxagoras, that mind was introduced into the world at a certain time to impose order on a pre-existing chaos; instead, he sees it as existing before chaos, eternal and in constant motion, the source of order and intelligence in all things. This seems to represent the final expression of Plato's religious philosophy, which could almost be summarized by Kant's words: 'the starry heaven above and the moral law within.' Or rather, more accurately, 'the starry heaven above and mind prior to the world.'
IV. The remarks about retail trade, about adulteration, and about mendicity, have a very modern character. Greek social life was more like our own than we are apt to suppose. There was the same division of ranks, the same aristocratic and democratic feeling, and, even in a democracy, the same preference for land and for agricultural pursuits. Plato may be claimed as the first free trader, when he prohibits the imposition of customs on imports and exports, though he was clearly not aware of the importance of the principle which he enunciated. The discredit of retail trade he attributes to the rogueries of traders, and is inclined to believe that if a nobleman would keep a shop, which heaven forbid! retail trade might become honourable. He has hardly lighted upon the true reason, which appears to be the essential distinction between buyers and sellers, the one class being necessarily in some degree dependent on the other. When he proposes to fix prices 'which would allow a moderate gain,' and to regulate trade in several minute particulars, we must remember that this is by no means so absurd in a city consisting of 5040 citizens, in which almost every one would know and become known to everybody else, as in our own vast population. Among ourselves we are very far from allowing every man to charge what he pleases. Of many things the prices are fixed by law. Do we not often hear of wages being adjusted in proportion to the profits of employers? The objection to regulating them by law and thus avoiding the conflicts which continually arise between the buyers and sellers of labour, is not so much the undesirableness as the impossibility of doing so. Wherever free competition is not reconcileable either with the order of society, or, as in the case of adulteration, with common honesty, the government may lawfully interfere. The only question is,—Whether the interference will be effectual, and whether the evil of interference may not be greater than the evil which is prevented by it.
IV. The comments about retail trade, adulteration, and begging feel very modern. Greek society was more similar to ours than we typically think. There was the same social hierarchy, the same mix of aristocratic and democratic sentiments, and even within a democracy, the same preference for land and farming. Plato could be seen as the first proponent of free trade when he argues against customs on imports and exports, even though he didn’t fully grasp the significance of his point. He blames the bad reputation of retail trade on the trickery of merchants and suggests that if a nobleman were to run a shop—heaven forbid!—retail trade could become respectable. However, he hasn't identified the real issue, which seems to be the fundamental difference between buyers and sellers, with one group being somewhat dependent on the other. When he suggests setting prices that allow for a reasonable profit and regulating trade in many small details, we should keep in mind that this isn't as ridiculous in a city with 5,040 citizens, where nearly everyone would know each other, compared to our large population. Here, we are far from letting everyone charge whatever they want. Many prices are set by law. Don't we often hear about wages being adjusted according to employers' profits? The concern over regulating prices by law to prevent the ongoing disputes between buyers and sellers of labor is not just about whether it’s undesirable, but whether it’s even possible. Whenever free competition conflicts with societal order, or, as in cases of adulteration, with basic honesty, the government can justifiably step in. The main question is—Will this intervention be effective, and could the problems caused by the intervention be worse than the issues it aims to address?
He would prohibit beggars, because in a well-ordered state no good man would be left to starve. This again is a prohibition which might have been easily enforced, for there is no difficulty in maintaining the poor when the population is small. In our own times the difficulty of pauperism is rendered far greater, (1) by the enormous numbers, (2) by the facility of locomotion, (3) by the increasing tenderness for human life and suffering. And the only way of meeting the difficulty seems to be by modern nations subdividing themselves into small bodies having local knowledge and acting together in the spirit of ancient communities (compare Arist. Pol.)
He would ban beggars because, in a well-ordered society, no good person should be left to starve. This is a ban that could have been easily enforced since there’s no challenge in supporting the poor when the population is small. In our time, the problem of poverty is made much greater by (1) the huge numbers, (2) the ease of transportation, and (3) the growing compassion for human life and suffering. The only way to tackle this issue seems to be for modern nations to break themselves into smaller groups with local understanding, working together like ancient communities (compare Arist. Pol.)
V. Regarded as the framework of a polity the Laws are deemed by Plato to be a decline from the Republic, which is the dream of his earlier years. He nowhere imagines that he has reached a higher point of speculation. He is only descending to the level of human things, and he often returns to his original idea. For the guardians of the Republic, who were the elder citizens, and were all supposed to be philosophers, is now substituted a special body, who are to review and amend the laws, preserving the spirit of the legislator. These are the Nocturnal Council, who, although they are not specially trained in dialectic, are not wholly destitute of it; for they must know the relation of particular virtues to the general principle of virtue. Plato has been arguing throughout the Laws that temperance is higher than courage, peace than war, that the love of both must enter into the character of the good citizen. And at the end the same thought is summed up by him in an abstract form. The true artist or guardian must be able to reduce the many to the one, than which, as he says with an enthusiasm worthy of the Phaedrus or Philebus, 'no more philosophical method was ever devised by the wit of man.' But the sense of unity in difference can only be acquired by study; and Plato does not explain to us the nature of this study, which we may reasonably infer, though there is a remarkable omission of the word, to be akin to the dialectic of the Republic.
V. Seen as the foundation of a society, Plato views the Laws as a step down from the Republic, which represents his earlier ideals. He never thinks he’s reached a more advanced level of thought. Instead, he is simply returning to the realm of human affairs, often revisiting his original ideas. The guardians of the Republic, who were older citizens and expected to be philosophers, are now replaced by a specific group responsible for reviewing and improving the laws while maintaining the spirit of the lawmaker. These are the Nocturnal Council, who, although not specifically trained in dialectic, aren't completely lacking in it either; they need to understand how individual virtues relate to the broader concept of virtue. Throughout the Laws, Plato argues that moderation is more important than bravery, and peace is preferred over conflict; both of these qualities must be part of a good citizen's character. At the end, he summarizes this idea in an abstract way. The true artist or guardian must be able to unify the many into the one, which, as he expresses with a passion reminiscent of the Phaedrus or Philebus, "no more philosophical method was ever created by human intelligence." However, the understanding of unity in diversity can only be gained through study, and Plato doesn’t clarify what this study entails, which we can reasonably guess is similar to the dialectic of the Republic, although he notably does not include the word.
The Nocturnal Council is to consist of the priests who have obtained the rewards of virtue, of the ten eldest guardians of the law, and of the director and ex-directors of education; each of whom is to select for approval a younger coadjutor. To this council the 'Spectator,' who is sent to visit foreign countries, has to make his report. It is not an administrative body, but an assembly of sages who are to make legislation their study. Plato is not altogether disinclined to changes in the law where experience shows them to be necessary; but he is also anxious that the original spirit of the constitution should never be lost sight of.
The Nocturnal Council will consist of the priests who have earned the rewards of virtue, the ten oldest guardians of the law, and the current and former directors of education; each of them will choose a younger assistant for approval. This council will receive reports from the 'Spectator,' who travels to foreign countries. It’s not an administrative group, but a gathering of wise individuals focused on studying legislation. Plato is open to legal changes when experience indicates they’re needed; however, he also wants to ensure that the original spirit of the constitution is never forgotten.
The Laws of Plato contain the latest phase of his philosophy, showing in many respects an advance, and in others a decline, in his views of life and the world. His Theory of Ideas in the next generation passed into one of Numbers, the nature of which we gather chiefly from the Metaphysics of Aristotle. Of the speculative side of this theory there are no traces in the Laws, but doubtless Plato found the practical value which he attributed to arithmetic greatly confirmed by the possibility of applying number and measure to the revolution of the heavens, and to the regulation of human life. In the return to a doctrine of numbers there is a retrogression rather than an advance; for the most barren logical abstraction is of a higher nature than number and figure. Philosophy fades away into the distance; in the Laws it is confined to the members of the Nocturnal Council. The speculative truth which was the food of the guardians in the Republic, is for the majority of the citizens to be superseded by practical virtues. The law, which is the expression of mind written down, takes the place of the living word of the philosopher. (Compare the contrast of Phaedrus, and Laws; also the plays on the words nous, nomos, nou dianome; and the discussion in the Statesman of the difference between the personal rule of a king and the impersonal reign of law.) The State is based on virtue and religion rather than on knowledge; and virtue is no longer identified with knowledge, being of the commoner sort, and spoken of in the sense generally understood. Yet there are many traces of advance as well as retrogression in the Laws of Plato. The attempt to reconcile the ideal with actual life is an advance; to 'have brought philosophy down from heaven to earth,' is a praise which may be claimed for him as well as for his master Socrates. And the members of the Nocturnal Council are to continue students of the 'one in many' and of the nature of God. Education is the last word with which Plato supposes the theory of the Laws to end and the reality to begin.
The Laws of Plato represent the latest stage of his philosophy, showing progress in some areas and decline in others regarding his views on life and the world. His Theory of Ideas eventually evolved into a Theory of Numbers, which we mainly learn about from Aristotle's Metaphysics. There are no signs of the speculative aspect of this theory in the Laws, but it’s clear that Plato found practical value in arithmetic, especially in how it could be applied to the movements of the heavens and the organization of human life. The shift back to a focus on numbers seems more like a regression than an improvement since the most abstract logical ideas are of a higher order than mere numbers and shapes. Philosophy seems to drift away; in the Laws, it’s limited to the members of the Nocturnal Council. The speculative truths that nourished the guardians in the Republic are set aside for most citizens in favor of practical virtues. The law, written out as an expression of thought, replaces the living voice of the philosopher. (See the contrast between Phaedrus and Laws; also consider the plays on words like nous, nomos, nou dianome; and the debate in the Statesman about the difference between a king's personal rule and the impersonal rule of law.) The State is founded on virtue and religion instead of knowledge; virtue is no longer equated with knowledge and is more common and generally understood. Still, there are signs of both progress and regression in the Laws of Plato. The effort to align ideals with real life is a step forward; he, along with his master Socrates, deserves credit for 'bringing philosophy down from heaven to earth.' The members of the Nocturnal Council will continue to study the 'one in many' and the nature of God. Education is the final concept that Plato believes transitions theory into reality in the Laws.
Plato's increasing appreciation of the difficulties of human affairs, and of the element of chance which so largely influences them, is an indication not of a narrower, but of a maturer mind, which had become more conversant with realities. Nor can we fairly attribute any want of originality to him, because he has borrowed many of his provisions from Sparta and Athens. Laws and institutions grow out of habits and customs; and they have 'better opinion, better confirmation,' if they have come down from antiquity and are not mere literary inventions. Plato would have been the first to acknowledge that the Book of Laws was not the creation of his fancy, but a collection of enactments which had been devised by inspired legislators, like Minos, Lycurgus, and Solon, to meet the actual needs of men, and had been approved by time and experience.
Plato's growing recognition of the complexities of human life and the role of chance that heavily impacts them shows not a limited perspective, but a more developed understanding that has become more attuned to reality. We shouldn't consider him lacking originality just because he borrowed many ideas from Sparta and Athens. Laws and institutions emerge from established habits and customs, and they’re viewed as more credible and validated if they come from ancient origins rather than being mere literary creations. Plato would have been the first to admit that the Book of Laws wasn't a product of his imagination, but rather a compilation of laws crafted by visionary leaders like Minos, Lycurgus, and Solon, designed to address the actual needs of people, and which had stood the test of time and experience.
In order to do justice therefore to the design of the work, it is necessary to examine how far it rests on an historical foundation and coincides with the actual laws of Sparta and Athens. The consideration of the historical aspect of the Laws has been reserved for this place. In working out the comparison the writer has been greatly assisted by the excellent essays of C.F. Hermann ('De vestigiis institutorum veterum, imprimis Atticorum, per Platonis de Legibus libros indagandis,' and 'Juris domestici et familiaris apud Platonem in Legibus cum veteris Graeciae inque primis Athenarum institutis comparatio': Marburg, 1836), and by J.B. Telfy's 'Corpus Juris Attici' (Leipzig, 1868).
To truly appreciate the design of the work, it's essential to examine how much it is built on a historical foundation and aligns with the actual laws of Sparta and Athens. The historical aspect of the Laws has been set aside for this discussion. While making the comparison, the author has been greatly helped by the excellent essays of C.F. Hermann ('De vestigiis institutorum veterum, imprimis Atticorum, per Platonis de Legibus libros indagandis,' and 'Juris domestici et familiaris apud Platonem in Legibus cum veteris Graeciae inque primis Athenarum institutis comparatio': Marburg, 1836), and by J.B. Telfy's 'Corpus Juris Attici' (Leipzig, 1868).
EXCURSUS ON THE RELATION OF THE LAWS OF PLATO TO THE INSTITUTIONS OF CRETE AND LACEDAEMON AND TO THE LAWS AND CONSTITUTION OF ATHENS.
The Laws of Plato are essentially Greek: unlike Xenophon's Cyropaedia, they contain nothing foreign or oriental. Their aim is to reconstruct the work of the great lawgivers of Hellas in a literary form. They partake both of an Athenian and a Spartan character. Some of them too are derived from Crete, and are appropriately transferred to a Cretan colony. But of Crete so little is known to us, that although, as Montesquieu (Esprit des Lois) remarks, 'the Laws of Crete are the original of those of Sparta and the Laws of Plato the correction of these latter,' there is only one point, viz. the common meals, in which they can be compared. Most of Plato's provisions resemble the laws and customs which prevailed in these three states (especially in the two former), and which the personifying instinct of the Greeks attributed to Minos, Lycurgus, and Solon. A very few particulars may have been borrowed from Zaleucus (Cic. de Legibus), and Charondas, who is said to have first made laws against perjury (Arist. Pol.) and to have forbidden credit (Stob. Florileg., Gaisford). Some enactments are Plato's own, and were suggested by his experience of defects in the Athenian and other Greek states. The Laws also contain many lesser provisions, which are not found in the ordinary codes of nations, because they cannot be properly defined, and are therefore better left to custom and common sense. 'The greater part of the work,' as Aristotle remarks (Pol.), 'is taken up with laws': yet this is not wholly true, and applies to the latter rather than to the first half of it. The book rests on an ethical and religious foundation: the actual laws begin with a hymn of praise in honour of the soul. And the same lofty aspiration after the good is perpetually recurring, especially in Books X, XI, XII, and whenever Plato's mind is filled with his highest themes. In prefixing to most of his laws a prooemium he has two ends in view, to persuade and also to threaten. They are to have the sanction of laws and the effect of sermons. And Plato's 'Book of Laws,' if described in the language of modern philosophy, may be said to be as much an ethical and educational, as a political or legal treatise.
The Laws of Plato are primarily Greek: unlike Xenophon's Cyropaedia, they don’t include any foreign or eastern elements. Their purpose is to recreate the work of the great lawgivers of ancient Greece in a literary format. They reflect both Athenian and Spartan influences. Some aspects are also rooted in Crete and are fittingly linked to a Cretan colony. However, we know so little about Crete that, as Montesquieu (Esprit des Lois) points out, 'the Laws of Crete are the original of those of Sparta and the Laws of Plato are the refinement of the latter,' that they can only be compared in one specific area—common meals. Most of Plato's laws resemble the laws and customs that existed in these three states (especially the first two) and which the Greeks attributed to Minos, Lycurgus, and Solon. A few details may have been influenced by Zaleucus (Cic. de Legibus) and Charondas, who is said to have been the first to establish laws against perjury (Arist. Pol.) and to have banned credit (Stob. Florileg., Gaisford). Some regulations are Plato's own, inspired by his observations of flaws in the Athenian and other Greek city-states. The Laws also include numerous minor provisions that aren’t typically found in standard legal codes, as they can't be clearly defined and are better addressed through custom and common sense. 'The greater part of the work,' as Aristotle notes (Pol.), 'is focused on laws': yet this isn’t entirely accurate, particularly regarding the first half. The book is built on an ethical and religious foundation: the actual laws start with a hymn praising the soul. The same high pursuit of the good recurs throughout, especially in Books X, XI, XII, and whenever Plato's thoughts dive into his profound themes. By introducing most of his laws with a prologue, he aims to persuade and also to caution. They are meant to carry the authority of laws and the impact of sermons. Plato's 'Book of Laws,' if described in contemporary philosophical terms, can be seen as equally ethical and educational as it is political or legal.
But although the Laws partake both of an Athenian and a Spartan character, the elements which are borrowed from either state are necessarily very different, because the character and origin of the two governments themselves differed so widely. Sparta was the more ancient and primitive: Athens was suited to the wants of a later stage of society. The relation of the two states to the Laws may be conceived in this manner:—The foundation and ground-plan of the work are more Spartan, while the superstructure and details are more Athenian. At Athens the laws were written down and were voluminous; more than a thousand fragments of them have been collected by Telfy. Like the Roman or English law, they contained innumerable particulars. Those of them which regulated daily life were familiarly known to the Athenians; for every citizen was his own lawyer, and also a judge, who decided the rights of his fellow-citizens according to the laws, often after hearing speeches from the parties interested or from their advocates. It is to Rome and not to Athens that the invention of law, in the modern sense of the term, is commonly ascribed. But it must be remembered that long before the times of the Twelve Tables (B.C. 451), regular courts and forms of law had existed at Athens and probably in the Greek colonies. And we may reasonably suppose, though without any express proof of the fact, that many Roman institutions and customs, like Latin literature and mythology, were partly derived from Hellas and had imperceptibly drifted from one shore of the Ionian Sea to the other (compare especially the constitutions of Servius Tullius and of Solon).
But even though the laws have elements from both Athenian and Spartan backgrounds, the parts taken from each state are quite different due to the distinct nature and origins of their governments. Sparta was more ancient and primitive, while Athens catered to the needs of a more advanced society. We can think of the relationship between the two states and the laws in this way: the foundation and framework of the work are more Spartan, while the detailed structure is more Athenian. In Athens, the laws were documented and extensive; over a thousand fragments have been compiled by Telfy. Similar to Roman or English law, they included countless specifics. Athenians were familiar with those laws that governed everyday life, as every citizen acted as his own lawyer and also a judge, resolving the rights of their fellow citizens in accordance with the laws, often after hearing arguments from the involved parties or their representatives. The creation of law, in the modern sense, is usually credited to Rome rather than Athens. However, it's important to note that long before the Twelve Tables (B.C. 451), Athens had organized courts and legal systems, likely existing in Greek colonies as well. We can reasonably assume, though without direct proof, that many Roman institutions and customs, like Latin literature and mythology, partially originated from Greece and gradually made their way from one side of the Ionian Sea to the other (especially comparing the constitutions of Servius Tullius and Solon).
It is not proved that the laws of Sparta were in ancient times either written down in books or engraved on tablets of marble or brass. Nor is it certain that, if they had been, the Spartans could have read them. They were ancient customs, some of them older probably than the settlement in Laconia, of which the origin is unknown; they occasionally received the sanction of the Delphic oracle, but there was a still stronger obligation by which they were enforced,—the necessity of self-defence: the Spartans were always living in the presence of their enemies. They belonged to an age when written law had not yet taken the place of custom and tradition. The old constitution was very rarely affected by new enactments, and these only related to the duties of the Kings or Ephors, or the new relations of classes which arose as time went on. Hence there was as great a difference as could well be conceived between the Laws of Athens and Sparta: the one was the creation of a civilized state, and did not differ in principle from our modern legislation, the other of an age in which the people were held together and also kept down by force of arms, and which afterwards retained many traces of its barbaric origin 'surviving in culture.'
It hasn't been proven that the laws of Sparta were written down in books or carved on marble or brass tablets in ancient times. It’s also unclear whether, if they had been, the Spartans could have read them. These were ancient customs, some likely older than the settlement in Laconia, with unknown origins; occasionally, they received approval from the Delphic oracle, but there was an even stronger force enforcing them—the need for self-defense: the Spartans were always surrounded by their enemies. They lived in a time when written laws hadn't yet replaced customs and traditions. The old constitution was rarely changed by new laws, which only pertained to the responsibilities of the Kings or Ephors or the changing social dynamics over time. As a result, there was a significant difference between the laws of Athens and Sparta: Athens represented a civilized state and didn't differ in principle from our modern laws, while Sparta was from an era where people were held together and oppressed by military force, retaining many signs of its primitive roots 'surviving in culture.'
Nevertheless the Lacedaemonian was the ideal of a primitive Greek state. According to Thucydides it was the first which emerged out of confusion and became a regular government. It was also an army devoted to military exercises, but organized with a view to self-defence and not to conquest. It was not quick to move or easily excited; but stolid, cautious, unambitious, procrastinating. For many centuries it retained the same character which was impressed upon it by the hand of the legislator. This singular fabric was partly the result of circumstances, partly the invention of some unknown individual in prehistoric times, whose ideal of education was military discipline, and who, by the ascendency of his genius, made a small tribe into a nation which became famous in the world's history. The other Hellenes wondered at the strength and stability of his work. The rest of Hellas, says Thucydides, undertook the colonisation of Heraclea the more readily, having a feeling of security now that they saw the Lacedaemonians taking part in it. The Spartan state appears to us in the dawn of history as a vision of armed men, irresistible by any other power then existing in the world. It can hardly be said to have understood at all the rights or duties of nations to one another, or indeed to have had any moral principle except patriotism and obedience to commanders. Men were so trained to act together that they lost the freedom and spontaneity of human life in cultivating the qualities of the soldier and ruler. The Spartan state was a composite body in which kings, nobles, citizens, perioeci, artisans, slaves, had to find a 'modus vivendi' with one another. All of them were taught some use of arms. The strength of the family tie was diminished among them by an enforced absence from home and by common meals. Sparta had no life or growth; no poetry or tradition of the past; no art, no thought. The Athenians started on their great career some centuries later, but the Spartans would have been easily conquered by them, if Athens had not been deficient in the qualities which constituted the strength (and also the weakness) of her rival.
Nevertheless, the Lacedaemonian represented the ideal of a primitive Greek state. According to Thucydides, it was the first to emerge from chaos and establish a regular government. It functioned as an army dedicated to military training, organized primarily for self-defense rather than conquest. It wasn't quick to act or easily stirred; instead, it was solid, cautious, unambitious, and prone to procrastination. For many centuries, it maintained the same character instilled by its legislator. This unique structure was partly due to circumstances and partly the result of an unknown individual from prehistoric times, whose vision of education focused on military discipline and, through his brilliance, transformed a small tribe into a nation renowned in history. The other Hellenes admired the strength and stability of his creation. The rest of Hellas, Thucydides notes, eagerly engaged in the colonization of Heraclea, feeling secure now that the Lacedaemonians were involved. The Spartan state presents itself at the dawn of history as a vision of armed men, unstoppable by any other power existing at that time. It can hardly be said to have grasped the rights or responsibilities of nations toward one another, nor did it possess any moral principle beyond patriotism and obedience to leaders. The people were so trained to act in unison that they lost the freedom and spontaneity of human life while cultivating the qualities of soldiers and rulers. The Spartan state was a mixed entity where kings, nobles, citizens, perioeci, artisans, and slaves had to find a way to coexist. All of them were taught some form of weaponry. The strength of family bonds weakened among them due to enforced absences from home and communal meals. Sparta lacked vitality or growth; it had no poetry, traditions of the past, art, or intellectual pursuits. The Athenians began their remarkable journey some centuries later, but the Spartans would have been easily defeated by them if Athens hadn't lacked the very traits that made her rival strong (and also weak).
The ideal of Athens has been pictured for all time in the speech which Thucydides puts into the mouth of Pericles, called the Funeral Oration. He contrasts the activity and freedom and pleasantness of Athenian life with the immobility and severe looks and incessant drill of the Spartans. The citizens of no city were more versatile, or more readily changed from land to sea or more quickly moved about from place to place. They 'took their pleasures' merrily, and yet, when the time for fighting arrived, were not a whit behind the Spartans, who were like men living in a camp, and, though always keeping guard, were often too late for the fray. Any foreigner might visit Athens; her ships found a way to the most distant shores; the riches of the whole earth poured in upon her. Her citizens had their theatres and festivals; they 'provided their souls with many relaxations'; yet they were not less manly than the Spartans or less willing to sacrifice this enjoyable existence for their country's good. The Athenian was a nobler form of life than that of their rivals, a life of music as well as of gymnastic, the life of a citizen as well as of a soldier. Such is the picture which Thucydides has drawn of the Athenians in their glory. It is the spirit of this life which Plato would infuse into the Magnesian state and which he seeks to combine with the common meals and gymnastic discipline of Sparta.
The ideal of Athens has been captured for all time in the speech that Thucydides gives to Pericles, known as the Funeral Oration. He contrasts the lively, free, and enjoyable life of Athenians with the rigidity, sternness, and constant drills of the Spartans. Citizens from no other city were more adaptable, easily shifting from land to sea and quickly moving from place to place. They enjoyed their pleasures cheerfully, yet when it was time to fight, they were just as capable as the Spartans, who were like men always prepared to camp and often arrived late to battle. Any foreign visitor could come to Athens; its ships reached even the farthest shores, bringing in wealth from all over the world. Athenians had their theaters and festivals, providing plenty of entertainment for their minds, yet they were just as brave as the Spartans and just as willing to sacrifice their enjoyable lives for the good of their country. The Athenian way of life was a nobler one than that of their rivals, encompassing both music and athletics, blending the life of a citizen with that of a soldier. This is the image that Thucydides painted of the Athenians in their prime. It is the essence of this life that Plato aimed to instill in the Magnesian state, seeking to merge it with the communal meals and athletic training of Sparta.
The two great types of Athens and Sparta had deeply entered into his mind. He had heard of Sparta at a distance and from common Hellenic fame: he was a citizen of Athens and an Athenian of noble birth. He must often have sat in the law-courts, and may have had personal experience of the duties of offices such as he is establishing. There is no need to ask the question, whence he derived his knowledge of the Laws of Athens: they were a part of his daily life. Many of his enactments are recognized to be Athenian laws from the fragments preserved in the Orators and elsewhere: many more would be found to be so if we had better information. Probably also still more of them would have been incorporated in the Magnesian code, if the work had ever been finally completed. But it seems to have come down to us in a form which is partly finished and partly unfinished, having a beginning and end, but wanting arrangement in the middle. The Laws answer to Plato's own description of them, in the comparison which he makes of himself and his two friends to gatherers of stones or the beginners of some composite work, 'who are providing materials and partly putting them together:—having some of their laws, like stones, already fixed in their places, while others lie about.'
The two main types of Athens and Sparta had made a significant impression on him. He had heard about Sparta from a distance and through general Greek lore; he was a citizen of Athens and came from a noble family. He must have often sat in the law courts and likely had firsthand experience with the responsibilities of the positions he was establishing. There's no need to question where he got his knowledge of Athenian laws; they were a part of his everyday life. Many of his laws are recognized as Athenian based on the fragments that remain in the works of the Orators and elsewhere; many more would likely be identified as such if we had better records. It's also probable that even more of them would have been included in the Magnesian code if the work had ever been fully completed. However, it appears to have been passed down to us in a state that is partially finished, with a clear beginning and end, but lacking organization in the middle. The Laws align with Plato's own description of them when he compares himself and his two friends to gatherers of stones or the creators of some composite work, “who are providing materials and partly putting them together:—having some of their laws, like stones, already fixed in their places, while others lie about.”
Plato's own life coincided with the period at which Athens rose to her greatest heights and sank to her lowest depths. It was impossible that he should regard the blessings of democracy in the same light as the men of a former generation, whose view was not intercepted by the evil shadow of the taking of Athens, and who had only the glories of Marathon and Salamis and the administration of Pericles to look back upon. On the other hand the fame and prestige of Sparta, which had outlived so many crimes and blunders, was not altogether lost at the end of the life of Plato. Hers was the only great Hellenic government which preserved something of its ancient form; and although the Spartan citizens were reduced to almost one-tenth of their original number (Arist. Pol.), she still retained, until the rise of Thebes and Macedon, a certain authority and predominance due to her final success in the struggle with Athens and to the victories which Agesilaus won in Asia Minor.
Plato's life happened during the time when Athens reached its peak and then fell to its lowest point. He couldn't see the benefits of democracy in the same way as the people from an earlier generation, who weren't affected by the downfall of Athens and could only remember the glories of Marathon and Salamis and the leadership of Pericles. On the flip side, Sparta's reputation and influence, which survived many crimes and mistakes, were not entirely lost by the end of Plato's life. It was the only major Greek government that kept some of its ancient structure; and even though the number of Spartan citizens had dwindled to almost one-tenth of what it once was (Arist. Pol.), Sparta still held onto a degree of power and dominance until Thebes and Macedon rose up, thanks to its final success against Athens and the victories that Agesilaus achieved in Asia Minor.
Plato, like Aristotle, had in his mind some form of a mean state which should escape the evils and secure the advantages of both aristocracy and democracy. It may however be doubted whether the creation of such a state is not beyond the legislator's art, although there have been examples in history of forms of government, which through some community of interest or of origin, through a balance of parties in the state itself, or through the fear of a common enemy, have for a while preserved such a character of moderation. But in general there arises a time in the history of a state when the struggle between the few and the many has to be fought out. No system of checks and balances, such as Plato has devised in the Laws, could have given equipoise and stability to an ancient state, any more than the skill of the legislator could have withstood the tide of democracy in England or France during the last hundred years, or have given life to China or India.
Plato, like Aristotle, envisioned a kind of balanced state that would avoid the pitfalls and embrace the benefits of both aristocracy and democracy. However, one might wonder if creating such a state is beyond what lawmakers can achieve, even though there have been historical examples of governments that, through shared interests or origins, a balance of parties, or the fear of a common enemy, have temporarily maintained a sense of moderation. Generally, though, there comes a point in a state's history when the conflict between the few and the many has to be resolved. No system of checks and balances, like the one Plato proposed in the Laws, could have provided balance and stability to an ancient state, just as the efforts of lawmakers couldn't have resisted the rise of democracy in England or France over the past hundred years or revived China or India.
The basis of the Magnesian constitution is the equal division of land. In the new state, as in the Republic, there was to be neither poverty nor riches. Every citizen under all circumstances retained his lot, and as much money as was necessary for the cultivation of it, and no one was allowed to accumulate property to the amount of more than five times the value of the lot, inclusive of it. The equal division of land was a Spartan institution, not known to have existed elsewhere in Hellas. The mention of it in the Laws of Plato affords considerable presumption that it was of ancient origin, and not first introduced, as Mr. Grote and others have imagined, in the reformation of Cleomenes III. But at Sparta, if we may judge from the frequent complaints of the accumulation of property in the hands of a few persons (Arist. Pol.), no provision could have been made for the maintenance of the lot. Plutarch indeed speaks of a law introduced by the Ephor Epitadeus soon after the Peloponnesian War, which first allowed the Spartans to sell their land (Agis): but from the manner in which Aristotle refers to the subject, we should imagine this evil in the state to be of a much older standing. Like some other countries in which small proprietors have been numerous, the original equality passed into inequality, and, instead of a large middle class, there was probably at Sparta greater disproportion in the property of the citizens than in any other state of Hellas. Plato was aware of the danger, and has improved on the Spartan custom. The land, as at Sparta, must have been tilled by slaves, since other occupations were found for the citizens. Bodies of young men between the ages of twenty-five and thirty were engaged in making biennial peregrinations of the country. They and their officers are to be the magistrates, police, engineers, aediles, of the twelve districts into which the colony was divided. Their way of life may be compared with that of the Spartan secret police or Crypteia, a name which Plato freely applies to them without apparently any consciousness of the odium which has attached to the word in history.
The foundation of the Magnesian constitution is the equal distribution of land. In the new state, just like in the Republic, there was to be neither poverty nor wealth. Every citizen always kept their lot, along with enough money needed to cultivate it, and no one was allowed to own property worth more than five times the value of their lot, including it. The equal division of land was a Spartan practice, not known to have existed anywhere else in Greece. Its mention in Plato's Laws suggests it has ancient roots and wasn’t first introduced, as Mr. Grote and others have thought, during Cleomenes III's reforms. However, in Sparta, if we can believe the frequent complaints about wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few (Arist. Pol.), no arrangements were likely made for maintaining the lot. Plutarch does mention a law introduced by the Ephor Epitadeus shortly after the Peloponnesian War, which first permitted Spartans to sell their land (Agis), but Aristotle’s comments imply this problem in the state was likely much older. Like in some other countries with many small landowners, the initial equality turned into inequality, and instead of a large middle class, there was probably greater disparity in property among citizens in Sparta than in any other Greek state. Plato recognized the risk and improved upon the Spartan practice. The land, similar to Sparta, was probably worked by slaves since other jobs were designated for the citizens. Groups of young men aged between twenty-five and thirty were tasked with traveling around the country every two years. They and their leaders would serve as the magistrates, police, engineers, and aediles of the twelve districts into which the colony was divided. Their lifestyle can be compared to that of the Spartan secret police or Crypteia, a term that Plato uses for them without seeming to acknowledge the negative connotations it carries in history.
Another great institution which Plato borrowed from Sparta (or Crete) is the Syssitia or common meals. These were established in both states, and in some respects were considered by Aristotle to be better managed in Crete than at Lacedaemon (Pol.). In the Laws the Cretan custom appears to be adopted (This is not proved, as Hermann supposes ('De Vestigiis,' etc.)): that is to say, if we may interpret Plato by Aristotle, the cost of them was defrayed by the state and not by the individuals (Arist. Pol); so that the members of the mess, who could not pay their quota, still retained their rights of citizenship. But this explanation is hardly consistent with the Laws, where contributions to the Syssitia from private estates are expressly mentioned. Plato goes further than the legislators of Sparta and Crete, and would extend the common meals to women as well as men: he desires to curb the disorders, which existed among the female sex in both states, by the application to women of the same military discipline to which the men were already subject. It was an extension of the custom of Syssitia from which the ancient legislators shrank, and which Plato himself believed to be very difficult of enforcement.
Another important institution that Plato took from Sparta (or Crete) is the Syssitia, or communal meals. These were established in both places, and in some ways, Aristotle thought they were managed better in Crete than in Sparta (Pol.). In the Laws, it seems the Cretan practice is adopted (though this isn't proven, as Hermann suggests in 'De Vestigiis,' etc.): in other words, if we interpret Plato through Aristotle, the costs were covered by the state rather than individuals (Arist. Pol); thus, members of the mess who couldn't pay their share still kept their citizenship rights. However, this explanation doesn’t quite align with the Laws, where contributions to the Syssitia from private estates are specifically mentioned. Plato goes further than the lawmakers of Sparta and Crete by wanting to extend communal meals to women as well as men: he aims to address the issues that existed among women in both states by applying the same military discipline to them that men already followed. This was an extension of the Syssitia custom that the ancient lawmakers avoided and which Plato himself thought would be very hard to implement.
Like Sparta, the new colony was not to be surrounded by walls,—a state should learn to depend upon the bravery of its citizens only—a fallacy or paradox, if it is not to be regarded as a poetical fancy, which is fairly enough ridiculed by Aristotle (Pol.). Women, too, must be ready to assist in the defence of their country: they are not to rush to the temples and altars, but to arm themselves with shield and spear. In the regulation of the Syssitia, in at least one of his enactments respecting property, and in the attempt to correct the licence of women, Plato shows, that while he borrowed from the institutions of Sparta and favoured the Spartan mode of life, he also sought to improve upon them.
Like Sparta, the new colony wasn't supposed to have walls— a state should learn to rely only on the bravery of its citizens— a fallacy or paradox, if it’s not just seen as a poetic idea, which Aristotle fairly critiques (Pol.). Women, too, need to be prepared to defend their country: they shouldn't be rushing to the temples and altars, but should take up arms with shields and spears. In organizing the Syssitia, in at least one of his laws regarding property, and in his effort to curb the freedoms of women, Plato demonstrates that while he borrowed from Spartan institutions and favored their way of life, he also aimed to improve upon them.
The enmity to the sea is another Spartan feature which is transferred by Plato to the Magnesian state. He did not reflect that a non-maritime power would always be at the mercy of one which had a command of the great highway. Their many island homes, the vast extent of coast which had to be protected by them, their struggles first of all with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and secondly with the Persian fleets, forced the Greeks, mostly against their will, to devote themselves to the sea. The islanders before the inhabitants of the continent, the maritime cities before the inland, the Corinthians and Athenians before the Spartans, were compelled to fit out ships: last of all the Spartans, by the pressure of the Peloponnesian War, were driven to establish a naval force, which, after the battle of Aegospotami, for more than a generation commanded the Aegean. Plato, like the Spartans, had a prejudice against a navy, because he regarded it as the nursery of democracy. But he either never considered, or did not care to explain, how a city, set upon an island and 'distant not more than ten miles from the sea, having a seaboard provided with excellent harbours,' could have safely subsisted without one.
The dislike of the sea is another Spartan trait that Plato applies to the Magnesian state. He didn't consider that a landlocked power would always be at the mercy of one that controlled the major trade routes. Their numerous island homes, the vast coastline they needed to defend, their ongoing battles first with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, and later with the Persian fleets, forced the Greeks—mostly against their wishes—to engage with the sea. The islanders, before the mainlanders, the coastal cities ahead of the inland ones, and the Corinthians and Athenians before the Spartans, were all compelled to build ships. Finally, the Spartans, due to the pressures of the Peloponnesian War, were pushed to create a naval force, which dominated the Aegean for over a generation after the battle of Aegospotami. Like the Spartans, Plato had a bias against having a navy because he saw it as a breeding ground for democracy. However, he either never thought about or chose not to explain how a city located on an island, just ten miles from the sea and with a coastline featuring excellent harbors, could have safely survived without one.
Neither the Spartans nor the Magnesian colonists were permitted to engage in trade or commerce. In order to limit their dealings as far as possible to their own country, they had a separate coinage; the Magnesians were only allowed to use the common currency of Hellas when they travelled abroad, which they were forbidden to do unless they received permission from the government. Like the Spartans, Plato was afraid of the evils which might be introduced into his state by intercourse with foreigners; but he also shrinks from the utter exclusiveness of Sparta, and is not unwilling to allow visitors of a suitable age and rank to come from other states to his own, as he also allows citizens of his own state to go to foreign countries and bring back a report of them. Such international communication seemed to him both honourable and useful.
Neither the Spartans nor the Magnesian colonists were allowed to participate in trade or commerce. To keep their dealings limited to their own territory, they had their own currency; the Magnesians could only use the common currency of Hellas when traveling abroad, which they were prohibited from doing unless they had government approval. Like the Spartans, Plato was concerned about the negative influences that could enter his state through interaction with outsiders; however, he also recoiled from the strict isolation of Sparta and was open to allowing visitors of appropriate age and status from other states into his own. He also permitted his citizens to travel to foreign lands and report back on their experiences. He viewed such international exchange as both honorable and beneficial.
We may now notice some points in which the commonwealth of the Laws approximates to the Athenian model. These are much more numerous than the previous class of resemblances; we are better able to compare the laws of Plato with those of Athens, because a good deal more is known to us of Athens than of Sparta.
We can now see some similarities between the system of laws and the Athenian model. There are many more of these similarities compared to the earlier group we've looked at; we can compare Plato's laws to those of Athens more effectively because we know significantly more about Athens than we do about Sparta.
The information which we possess about Athenian law, though comparatively fuller, is still fragmentary. The sources from which our knowledge is derived are chiefly the following:—
The information we have about Athenian law, while more comprehensive, is still incomplete. The sources of our knowledge mainly include the following:—
(1) The Orators,—Antiphon, Andocides, Lysias, Isocrates, Demosthenes, Aeschines, Lycurgus, and others.
(1) The Speakers — Antiphon, Andocides, Lysias, Isocrates, Demosthenes, Aeschines, Lycurgus, and others.
(2) Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, as well as later writers, such as Cicero de Legibus, Plutarch, Aelian, Pausanias.
(2) Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, and later writers like Cicero in de Legibus, Plutarch, Aelian, and Pausanias.
(3) Lexicographers, such as Harpocration, Pollux, Hesychius, Suidas, and the compiler of the Etymologicum Magnum, many of whom are of uncertain date, and to a great extent based upon one another. Their writings extend altogether over more than eight hundred years, from the second to the tenth century.
(3) Lexicographers like Harpocration, Pollux, Hesychius, Suidas, and the compiler of the Etymologicum Magnum, many of whom have uncertain dates and rely heavily on each other. Their works span over eight hundred years, from the second to the tenth century.
(4) The Scholia on Aristophanes, Plato, Demosthenes.
(4) The Scholarly Comments on Aristophanes, Plato, Demosthenes.
(5) A few inscriptions.
A few engravings.
Our knowledge of a subject derived from such various sources and for the most part of uncertain date and origin, is necessarily precarious. No critic can separate the actual laws of Solon from those which passed under his name in later ages. Nor do the Scholiasts and Lexicographers attempt to distinguish how many of these laws were still in force at the time when they wrote, or when they fell into disuse and were to be found in books only. Nor can we hastily assume that enactments which occur in the Laws of Plato were also a part of Athenian law, however probable this may appear.
Our knowledge of a subject that comes from so many different sources, mostly dating from uncertain times and origins, is inherently unstable. No critic can separate the actual laws of Solon from those that were attributed to him in later years. The Scholiasts and Lexicographers also don't make an effort to pinpoint how many of these laws were still active when they wrote or when they became obsolete and were only found in books. We also can't quickly assume that laws mentioned in Plato's Laws were a part of Athenian law, no matter how likely that might seem.
There are two classes of similarities between Plato's Laws and those of Athens: (i) of institutions (ii) of minor enactments.
There are two types of similarities between Plato's Laws and those of Athens: (i) of institutions (ii) of minor enactments.
(i) The constitution of the Laws in its general character resembles much more nearly the Athenian constitution of Solon's time than that which succeeded it, or the extreme democracy which prevailed in Plato's own day. It was a mean state which he hoped to create, equally unlike a Syracusan tyranny or the mob-government of the Athenian assembly. There are various expedients by which he sought to impart to it the quality of moderation. (1) The whole people were to be educated: they could not be all trained in philosophy, but they were to acquire the simple elements of music, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy; they were also to be subject to military discipline, archontes kai archomenoi. (2) The majority of them were, or had been at some time in their lives, magistrates, and had the experience which is given by office. (3) The persons who held the highest offices were to have a further education, not much inferior to that provided for the guardians in the Republic, though the range of their studies is narrowed to the nature and divisions of virtue: here their philosophy comes to an end. (4) The entire number of the citizens (5040) rarely, if ever, assembled, except for purposes of elections. The whole people were divided into four classes, each having the right to be represented by the same number of members in the Council. The result of such an arrangement would be, as in the constitution of Servius Tullius, to give a disproportionate share of power to the wealthier classes, who may be supposed to be always much fewer in number than the poorer. This tendency was qualified by the complicated system of selection by vote, previous to the final election by lot, of which the object seems to be to hand over to the wealthy few the power of selecting from the many poor, and vice versa. (5) The most important body in the state was the Nocturnal Council, which is borrowed from the Areopagus at Athens, as it existed, or was supposed to have existed, in the days before Ephialtes and the Eumenides of Aeschylus, when its power was undiminished. In some particulars Plato appears to have copied exactly the customs and procedure of the Areopagus: both assemblies sat at night (Telfy). There was a resemblance also in more important matters. Like the Areopagus, the Nocturnal Council was partly composed of magistrates and other state officials, whose term of office had expired. (7) The constitution included several diverse and even opposing elements, such as the Assembly and the Nocturnal Council. (8) There was much less exclusiveness than at Sparta; the citizens were to have an interest in the government of neighbouring states, and to know what was going on in the rest of the world.—All these were moderating influences.
(i) The structure of the laws is more similar to the Athenian constitution from Solon's time than to the one that followed it or the extreme democracy that existed during Plato's time. He aimed to create a balanced state, unlike the tyranny of Syracuse or the mob rule seen in the Athenian assembly. He tried various methods to ensure moderation in this system. (1) The entire population was to be educated: while not everyone could study philosophy, they would learn the basics of music, arithmetic, geometry, and astronomy; they would also undergo military training. (2) Most of them had, at some point in their lives, served as magistrates and gained the experience that comes with office. (3) Those in the highest positions were to receive an additional education, similar but somewhat less extensive than what was provided for the guardians in the Republic, focusing on the nature and aspects of virtue: this is where their philosophical education would end. (4) The entire citizenry (5040) would rarely, if ever, gather except for elections. The population was divided into four classes, each with the right to elect the same number of representatives to the Council. This arrangement would give a disproportionate amount of power to the wealthier classes, who were assumed to be significantly fewer in number than the poorer ones. This tendency was tempered by a complex voting selection system that occurred before the final lottery election, which seemed designed to allow the wealthy few to choose from the many poor, and vice versa. (5) The most important group in the state was the Nocturnal Council, modeled after the Areopagus in Athens, as it was believed to have existed before Ephialtes and the Eumenides of Aeschylus, when its authority was at its peak. In some respects, Plato seems to have directly copied the customs and processes of the Areopagus: both assemblies met at night. There were also significant similarities in other important areas. Like the Areopagus, the Nocturnal Council was partly made up of magistrates and other state officials whose terms had ended. (7) The constitution included several different and sometimes opposing elements, such as the Assembly and the Nocturnal Council. (8) There was much less exclusivity than in Sparta; citizens were to be involved in the governance of neighboring states and aware of what was happening in the wider world. All these factors contributed to the moderating influences in the state.
A striking similarity between Athens and the constitution of the Magnesian colony is the use of the lot in the election of judges and other magistrates. That such a mode of election should have been resorted to in any civilized state, or that it should have been transferred by Plato to an ideal or imaginary one, is very singular to us. The most extreme democracy of modern times has never thought of leaving government wholly to chance. It was natural that Socrates should scoff at it, and ask, 'Who would choose a pilot or carpenter or flute-player by lot' (Xen. Mem.)? Yet there were many considerations which made this mode of choice attractive both to the oligarch and to the democrat:—(1) It seemed to recognize that one man was as good as another, and that all the members of the governing body, whether few or many, were on a perfect equality in every sense of the word. (2) To the pious mind it appeared to be a choice made, not by man, but by heaven (compare Laws). (3) It afforded a protection against corruption and intrigue...It must also be remembered that, although elected by lot, the persons so elected were subject to a scrutiny before they entered on their office, and were therefore liable, after election, if disqualified, to be rejected (Laws). They were, moreover, liable to be called to account after the expiration of their office. In the election of councillors Plato introduces a further check: they are not to be chosen directly by lot from all the citizens, but from a select body previously elected by vote. In Plato's state at least, as we may infer from his silence on this point, judges and magistrates performed their duties without pay, which was a guarantee both of their disinterestedness and of their belonging probably to the higher class of citizens (compare Arist. Pol.). Hence we are not surprised that the use of the lot prevailed, not only in the election of the Athenian Council, but also in many oligarchies, and even in Plato's colony. The evil consequences of the lot are to a great extent avoided, if the magistrates so elected do not, like the dicasts at Athens, receive pay from the state.
A notable similarity between Athens and the constitution of the Magnesian colony is the use of random selection in the election of judges and other officials. It seems unusual to us that such a method of election would be used in any civilized society, or that Plato would have adopted it for an ideal or imagined one. The most extreme democracies of today have never considered leaving governance entirely to chance. It was expected that Socrates would ridicule it and ask, 'Who would choose a pilot, carpenter, or flute player by chance?' (Xen. Mem.) However, there were many reasons that made this method of selection appealing to both the oligarch and the democrat: (1) It seemed to acknowledge that one person is just as good as another, and that all members of the governing body, regardless of being few or many, were completely equal in every sense. (2) For the religiously minded, it appeared that the selection was made not by humans, but by divine intervention (compare Laws). (3) It provided protection against corruption and scheming... It should also be noted that, although chosen by lot, those elected underwent scrutiny before taking office and could be rejected if found disqualified after their election (Laws). Additionally, they could be held accountable after their term ended. In the election of council members, Plato adds another layer of oversight: they are not to be selected directly by lot from all citizens but from a previously elected group chosen by vote. In Plato's ideal state, as inferred from his silence on the matter, judges and officials likely served without pay, ensuring their selflessness and suggesting they belonged to the higher class of citizens (compare Arist. Pol.). Therefore, it is not surprising that random selection was common not only in electing the Athenian Council but also in various oligarchies and even in Plato's colony. The negative consequences of random selection are largely mitigated if the elected officials do not, like the dicasts in Athens, receive compensation from the state.
Another parallel is that of the Popular Assembly, which at Athens was omnipotent, but in the Laws has only a faded and secondary existence. In Plato it was chiefly an elective body, having apparently no judicial and little political power entrusted to it. At Athens it was the mainspring of the democracy; it had the decision of war or peace, of life and death; the acts of generals or statesmen were authorized or condemned by it; no office or person was above its control. Plato was far from allowing such a despotic power to exist in his model community, and therefore he minimizes the importance of the Assembly and narrows its functions. He probably never asked himself a question, which naturally occurs to the modern reader, where was to be the central authority in this new community, and by what supreme power would the differences of inferior powers be decided. At the same time he magnifies and brings into prominence the Nocturnal Council (which is in many respects a reflection of the Areopagus), but does not make it the governing body of the state.
Another parallel is the Popular Assembly, which in Athens was all-powerful, but in the Laws it has only a diminished and secondary role. In Plato's view, it was primarily an elected body that seemingly had no judicial and very little political power. In Athens, it was the driving force of democracy; it determined matters of war or peace, life and death; the actions of generals or politicians were approved or condemned by it; no office or individual was above its authority. Plato clearly wanted to avoid such a dictatorial power in his ideal community, so he downplays the significance of the Assembly and limits its functions. He likely never considered a question that seems obvious to the modern reader: where would the central authority be in this new community, and what supreme power would resolve the disputes among lesser powers? At the same time, he emphasizes the Nocturnal Council (which in many ways mirrors the Areopagus), but does not establish it as the governing body of the state.
Between the judicial system of the Laws and that of Athens there was very great similarity, and a difference almost equally great. Plato not unfrequently adopts the details when he rejects the principle. At Athens any citizen might be a judge and member of the great court of the Heliaea. This was ordinarily subdivided into a number of inferior courts, but an occasion is recorded on which the whole body, in number six thousand, met in a single court (Andoc. de Myst.). Plato significantly remarks that a few judges, if they are good, are better than a great number. He also, at least in capital cases, confines the plaintiff and defendant to a single speech each, instead of allowing two apiece, as was the common practice at Athens. On the other hand, in all private suits he gives two appeals, from the arbiters to the courts of the tribes, and from the courts of the tribes to the final or supreme court. There was nothing answering to this at Athens. The three courts were appointed in the following manner:—the arbiters were to be agreed upon by the parties to the cause; the judges of the tribes to be elected by lot; the highest tribunal to be chosen at the end of each year by the great officers of state out of their own number—they were to serve for a year, to undergo a scrutiny, and, unlike the Athenian judges, to vote openly. Plato does not dwell upon methods of procedure: these are the lesser matters which he leaves to the younger legislators. In cases of murder and some other capital offences, the cause was to be tried by a special tribunal, as was the custom at Athens: military offences, too, as at Athens, were decided by the soldiers. Public causes in the Laws, as sometimes at Athens, were voted upon by the whole people: because, as Plato remarks, they are all equally concerned in them. They were to be previously investigated by three of the principal magistrates. He believes also that in private suits all should take part; 'for he who has no share in the administration of justice is apt to imagine that he has no share in the state at all.' The wardens of the country, like the Forty at Athens, also exercised judicial power in small matters, as well as the wardens of the agora and city. The department of justice is better organized in Plato than in an ordinary Greek state, proceeding more by regular methods, and being more restricted to distinct duties.
Between the judicial system of the Laws and that of Athens, there were significant similarities and equally significant differences. Plato often takes specific details from one system while rejecting its underlying principles. In Athens, any citizen could act as a judge and participate in the main court of the Heliaea, which was usually divided into smaller courts. However, there’s a recorded instance where all six thousand members convened as one court (Andoc. de Myst.). Plato notably states that a few good judges are better than a large number of them. He also limits both the plaintiff and defendant to a single speech in serious cases, rather than allowing them two each, which was standard practice in Athens. Conversely, in all private disputes, he allows for two appeals: one from the arbiters to the tribal courts, and another from the tribal courts to the final or highest court, a structure absent in Athens. The three courts were established in the following way: the parties involved would agree on the arbiters; judges of the tribes would be chosen by lottery; and the top tribunal would be selected at the end of each year from among the great officers of state, who would serve for a year, be subject to scrutiny, and, unlike Athenian judges, would vote openly. Plato doesn’t focus on procedural methods, as he considers these lesser matters to be for younger legislators to handle. In cases of murder and other capital offenses, a special tribunal would handle the trials, similar to Athenian practices; military offenses would also be judged by soldiers, as in Athens. Public cases in the Laws, as sometimes in Athens, would be voted on by the entire populace since, as Plato notes, everyone has a stake in them. These cases would first be investigated by three main magistrates. He also believes that everyone should be involved in private disputes, stating that ‘he who has no share in the administration of justice is likely to think he has no share in the state at all.’ The wardens in the countryside, like the Forty in Athens, also had judicial authority in minor matters, as did the wardens of the agora and city. Plato's organization of justice is more structured and methodical than that of a typical Greek state, adhering to clearer processes and more defined responsibilities.
The executive of Plato's Laws, like the Athenian, was different from that of a modern civilized state. The difference chiefly consists in this, that whereas among ourselves there are certain persons or classes of persons set apart for the execution of the duties of government, in ancient Greece, as in all other communities in the earlier stages of their development, they were not equally distinguished from the rest of the citizens. The machinery of government was never so well organized as in the best modern states. The judicial department was not so completely separated from the legislative, nor the executive from the judicial, nor the people at large from the professional soldier, lawyer, or priest. To Aristotle (Pol.) it was a question requiring serious consideration—Who should execute a sentence? There was probably no body of police to whom were entrusted the lives and properties of the citizens in any Hellenic state. Hence it might be reasonably expected that every man should be the watchman of every other, and in turn be watched by him. The ancients do not seem to have remembered the homely adage that, 'What is every man's business is no man's business,' or always to have thought of applying the principle of a division of labour to the administration of law and to government. Every Athenian was at some time or on some occasion in his life a magistrate, judge, advocate, soldier, sailor, policeman. He had not necessarily any private business; a good deal of his time was taken up with the duties of office and other public occupations. So, too, in Plato's Laws. A citizen was to interfere in a quarrel, if older than the combatants, or to defend the outraged party, if his junior. He was especially bound to come to the rescue of a parent who was ill-treated by his children. He was also required to prosecute the murderer of a kinsman. In certain cases he was allowed to arrest an offender. He might even use violence to an abusive person. Any citizen who was not less than thirty years of age at times exercised a magisterial authority, to be enforced even by blows. Both in the Magnesian state and at Athens many thousand persons must have shared in the highest duties of government, if a section only of the Council, consisting of thirty or of fifty persons, as in the Laws, or at Athens after the days of Cleisthenes, held office for a month, or for thirty-five days only. It was almost as if, in our own country, the Ministry or the Houses of Parliament were to change every month. The average ability of the Athenian and Magnesian councillors could not have been very high, considering there were so many of them. And yet they were entrusted with the performance of the most important executive duties. In these respects the constitution of the Laws resembles Athens far more than Sparta. All the citizens were to be, not merely soldiers, but politicians and administrators.
The executive branch in Plato's Laws, much like that of Athens, was different from what we see in modern civilized states. The main difference lies in the fact that in our society, there are specific individuals or classes designated to carry out government duties, while in ancient Greece, as in other early-stage communities, such distinctions were less clear among citizens. The government wasn't organized as efficiently as in the best modern states. The judicial system wasn't completely separate from the legislative branch, nor was the executive distinct from the judiciary, and the general public wasn't separated from professional soldiers, lawyers, or priests. Aristotle questioned who should carry out a sentence, suggesting it was a serious matter. There likely wasn't a police force responsible for safeguarding citizens' lives and properties in any Greek state. This led to an expectation that everyone should keep an eye on each other. The ancients seemed to overlook the saying, "What is everyone’s business is no one’s business," and didn’t always apply the division of labor principle to law enforcement and governance. Every Athenian had been a magistrate, judge, advocate, soldier, sailor, or police officer at some point in their life. They often didn't have a private business, as much of their time was devoted to office duties and other public roles. Similarly, in Plato's Laws, a citizen was expected to intervene in a dispute if they were older than the fighters or to defend the wronged party if they were younger. They were especially obligated to assist a parent being mistreated by their children. They had to prosecute the murderer of a relative, and in some cases, were allowed to arrest an offender. They could even use force against an abusive individual. Any citizen over thirty sometimes exercised magisterial authority, which could even involve physical force. In both the Magnesian state and Athens, thousands of individuals must have participated in key governmental roles, especially since a small section of the Council, whether thirty or fifty people, held office for just a month or 35 days, much like if in our country the Cabinet or Parliament turned over every month. The average capability of the Athenian and Magnesian council members likely wasn’t very high given the large numbers. Yet, they were responsible for crucial executive tasks. In these aspects, the constitution in the Laws is much more similar to Athens than to Sparta. All citizens were expected to be not just soldiers but also politicians and administrators.
(ii) There are numerous minor particulars in which the Laws of Plato resemble those of Athens. These are less interesting than the preceding, but they show even more strikingly how closely in the composition of his work Plato has followed the laws and customs of his own country.
(ii) There are many small details in which Plato's Laws resemble those of Athens. While these are less interesting than the ones mentioned earlier, they illustrate even more clearly how closely Plato adhered to the laws and customs of his own country in crafting his work.
(1) Evidence. (a) At Athens a child was not allowed to give evidence (Telfy). Plato has a similar law: 'A child shall be allowed to give evidence only in cases of murder.' (b) At Athens an unwilling witness might be summoned; but he was not required to appear if he was ready to declare on oath that he knew nothing about the matter in question (Telfy). So in the Laws. (c) Athenian law enacted that when more than half the witnesses in a case had been convicted of perjury, there was to be a new trial (anadikos krisis—Telfy). There is a similar provision in the Laws. (d) False-witness was punished at Athens by atimia and a fine (Telfy). Plato is at once more lenient and more severe: 'If a man be twice convicted of false-witness, he shall not be required, and if thrice, he shall not be allowed to bear witness; and if he dare to witness after he has been convicted three times,...he shall be punished with death.'
(1) Evidence. (a) In Athens, a child wasn't allowed to give testimony (Telfy). Plato has a similar rule: 'A child may give evidence only in cases of murder.' (b) In Athens, an unwilling witness could be summoned, but they didn't have to appear if they were willing to swear that they knew nothing about the issue at hand (Telfy). This is also reflected in the Laws. (c) Athenian law stated that if more than half the witnesses in a case had been found guilty of perjury, a new trial should be held (anadikos krisis—Telfy). There is a similar rule in the Laws. (d) Giving false testimony in Athens was punished with atimia and a fine (Telfy). Plato's approach is both more lenient and more severe: 'If a person is convicted of false testimony twice, they will not be required to bear witness, and if they are convicted three times, they will be forbidden to testify; and if they dare to testify after being convicted three times,...they will face the death penalty.'
(2) Murder. (a) Wilful murder was punished in Athenian law by death, perpetual exile, and confiscation of property (Telfy). Plato, too, has the alternative of death or exile, but he does not confiscate the murderer's property. (b) The Parricide was not allowed to escape by going into exile at Athens (Telfy), nor, apparently, in the Laws. (c) A homicide, if forgiven by his victim before death, received no punishment, either at Athens (Telfy), or in the Magnesian state. In both (Telfy) the contriver of a murder is punished as severely as the doer; and persons accused of the crime are forbidden to enter temples or the agora until they have been tried (Telfy). (d) At Athens slaves who killed their masters and were caught red-handed, were not to be put to death by the relations of the murdered man, but to be handed over to the magistrates (Telfy). So in the Laws, the slave who is guilty of wilful murder has a public execution: but if the murder is committed in anger, it is punished by the kinsmen of the victim.
(2) Murder. (a) Willful murder was punished by death, lifetime exile, and confiscation of property in Athenian law (Telfy). Plato also offered the choice of death or exile, but he did not seize the killer's property. (b) A parricide was not allowed to escape by going into exile in Athens (Telfy), nor apparently in the Laws. (c) A homicide, if forgiven by the victim before death, faced no punishment in Athens (Telfy) or in the Magnesian state. In both cases (Telfy), the planner of a murder is punished just as severely as the actual perpetrator, and those accused of the crime are banned from entering temples or the agora until they have been tried (Telfy). (d) In Athens, slaves who killed their masters and were caught in the act were not to be executed by the relatives of the victim, but were to be handed over to the magistrates (Telfy). Similarly, in the Laws, a slave guilty of willful murder faced public execution, but if the murder was committed in anger, it was punished by the victim's family.
(3) Involuntary homicide. (a) The guilty person, according to the Athenian law, had to go into exile, and might not return, until the family of the man slain were conciliated. Then he must be purified (Telfy). If he is caught before he has obtained forgiveness, he may be put to death. These enactments reappear in the Laws. (b) The curious provision of Plato, that a stranger who has been banished for involuntary homicide and is subsequently wrecked upon the coast, must 'take up his abode on the sea-shore, wetting his feet in the sea, and watching for an opportunity of sailing,' recalls the procedure of the Judicium Phreatteum at Athens, according to which an involuntary homicide, who, having gone into exile, is accused of a wilful murder, was tried at Phreatto for this offence in a boat by magistrates on the shore. (c) A still more singular law, occurring both in the Athenian and Magnesian code, enacts that a stone or other inanimate object which kills a man is to be tried, and cast over the border (Telfy).
(3) Involuntary homicide. (a) According to Athenian law, the guilty party had to go into exile and couldn’t return until he had reconciled with the family of the deceased. Then, he had to undergo purification (Telfy). If he is caught before receiving forgiveness, he could be sentenced to death. These laws are reiterated in the Laws. (b) Plato’s interesting rule states that a stranger banished for involuntary homicide who washes up on the shore must 'live by the sea, getting his feet wet in the water, and look for a chance to set sail.' This reflects the process of the Judicium Phreatteum in Athens, where an involuntary killer, after going into exile, would be tried for intentional murder at Phreatto in a boat by magistrates on the shore. (c) An even stranger law, found in both the Athenian and Magnesian codes, states that a stone or other inanimate object that kills a person must be put on trial and then thrown beyond the border (Telfy).
(4) Justifiable or excusable homicide. Plato and Athenian law agree in making homicide justifiable or excusable in the following cases:—(1) at the games (Telfy); (2) in war (Telfy); (3) if the person slain was found doing violence to a free woman (Telfy); (4) if a doctor's patient dies; (5) in the case of a robber (Telfy); (6) in self-defence (Telfy).
(4) Justifiable or excusable homicide. Plato and Athenian law both agree that homicide can be justifiable or excusable in the following situations:—(1) during the games (Telfy); (2) in wartime (Telfy); (3) if the person killed was found assaulting a free woman (Telfy); (4) if a doctor's patient dies; (5) in the case of a robber (Telfy); (6) in self-defense (Telfy).
(5) Impiety. Death or expulsion was the Athenian penalty for impiety (Telfy). In the Laws it is punished in various cases by imprisonment for five years, for life, and by death.
(5) Impiety. The penalty for impiety in Athens was death or expulsion (Telfy). In the Laws, it’s punished in various situations by imprisonment for five years, life imprisonment, or death.
(6) Sacrilege. Robbery of temples at Athens was punished by death, refusal of burial in the land, and confiscation of property (Telfy). In the Laws the citizen who is guilty of such a crime is to 'perish ingloriously and be cast beyond the borders of the land,' but his property is not confiscated.
(6) Sacrilege. Stealing from temples in Athens was punishable by death, denial of burial in the land, and confiscation of property (Telfy). In the Laws, a citizen found guilty of such a crime is to 'perish ingloriously and be cast beyond the borders of the land,' but their property is not confiscated.
(7) Sorcery. The sorcerer at Athens was to be executed (Telfy): compare Laws, where it is enacted that the physician who poisons and the professional sorcerer shall be punished with death.
(7) Sorcery. The sorcerer in Athens was to be executed (Telfy): compare Laws, where it states that the doctor who poisons and the professional sorcerer will be sentenced to death.
(8) Treason. Both at Athens and in the Laws the penalty for treason was death (Telfy), and refusal of burial in the country (Telfy).
(8) Treason. Both in Athens and in the Laws, the punishment for treason was death (Telfy) and denial of burial in the country (Telfy).
(9) Sheltering exiles. 'If a man receives an exile, he shall be punished with death.' So, too, in Athenian law (Telfy.).
(9) Sheltering exiles. 'If someone takes in an exile, they shall be punished with death.' Similarly, in Athenian law (Telfy.).
(10) Wounding. Athenian law compelled a man who had wounded another to go into exile; if he returned, he was to be put to death (Telfy). Plato only punishes the offence with death when children wound their parents or one another, or a slave wounds his master.
(10) Wounding. Athenian law required a man who had injured another to go into exile; if he came back, he would face execution (Telfy). Plato only imposes the death penalty for the offense when children injure their parents or each other, or when a slave injures his master.
(11) Bribery. Death was the punishment for taking a bribe, both at Athens (Telfy) and in the Laws; but Athenian law offered an alternative—the payment of a fine of ten times the amount of the bribe.
(11) Bribery. The punishment for taking a bribe was death, both in Athens (Telfy) and in the Laws; however, Athenian law provided an alternative—the payment of a fine that was ten times the amount of the bribe.
(12) Theft. Plato, like Athenian law (Telfy), punishes the theft of public property by death; the theft of private property in both involves a fine of double the value of the stolen goods (Telfy).
(12) Theft. Plato, similar to Athenian law (Telfy), imposes the death penalty for stealing public property; for the theft of private property, both mandate a fine that is double the value of the stolen items (Telfy).
(13) Suicide. He 'who slays him who of all men, as they say, is his own best friend,' is regarded in the same spirit by Plato and by Athenian law. Plato would have him 'buried ingloriously on the borders of the twelve portions of the land, in such places as are uncultivated and nameless,' and 'no column or inscription is to mark the place of his interment.' Athenian law enacted that the hand which did the deed should be separated from the body and be buried apart (Telfy).
(13) Suicide. He "who takes the life of himself, as they say, is his own best friend," is viewed in the same way by Plato and Athenian law. Plato would have him "buried without honor on the outskirts of the twelve sections of the land, in areas that are uncultivated and unnamed," and "no column or inscription should mark the spot of his burial." Athenian law stated that the hand that committed the act should be detached from the body and buried separately (Telfy).
(14) Injury. In cases of wilful injury, Athenian law compelled the guilty person to pay double the damage; in cases of involuntary injury, simple damages (Telfy). Plato enacts that if a man wounds another in passion, and the wound is curable, he shall pay double the damage, if incurable or disfiguring, fourfold damages. If, however, the wounding is accidental, he shall simply pay for the harm done.
(14) Injury. In cases of intentional injury, Athenian law required the person at fault to pay double the damages; in cases of unintentional injury, just basic damages (Telfy). Plato states that if someone injures another out of anger, and the injury can be healed, they must pay double the damages; if it’s permanent or causes disfigurement, they must pay four times the damages. However, if the injury is accidental, they only pay for the damage caused.
(15) Treatment of parents. Athenian law allowed any one to indict another for neglect or illtreatment of parents (Telfy). So Plato bids bystanders assist a father who is assaulted by his son, and allows any one to give information against children who neglect their parents.
(15) Treatment of parents. Athenian law allowed anyone to accuse another for neglect or mistreatment of their parents (Telfy). So, Plato encourages bystanders to help a father who is being attacked by his son and permits anyone to report children who neglect their parents.
(16) Execution of sentences. Both Plato and Athenian law give to the winner of a suit power to seize the goods of the loser, if he does not pay within the appointed time (Telfy). At Athens the penalty was also doubled (Telfy); not so in Plato. Plato however punishes contempt of court by death, which at Athens seems only to have been visited with a further fine (Telfy).
(16) Execution of sentences. Both Plato and Athenian law give the winner of a lawsuit the authority to take the loser’s possessions if they don’t pay within the set time (Telfy). In Athens, the penalty was also doubled (Telfy); Plato did not have this provision. However, Plato imposes the death penalty for contempt of court, while in Athens, it seems the punishment was only an additional fine (Telfy).
(17) Property. (a) Both at Athens and in the Laws a man who has disputed property in his possession must give the name of the person from whom he received it (Telfy); and any one searching for lost property must enter a house naked (Telfy), or, as Plato says, 'naked, or wearing only a short tunic and without a girdle. (b) Athenian law, as well as Plato, did not allow a father to disinherit his son without good reason and the consent of impartial persons (Telfy). Neither grants to the eldest son any special claim on the paternal estate (Telfy). In the law of inheritance both prefer males to females (Telfy). (c) Plato and Athenian law enacted that a tree should be planted at a fair distance from a neighbour's property (Telfy), and that when a man could not get water, his neighbour must supply him (Telfy). Both at Athens and in Plato there is a law about bees, the former providing that a beehive must be set up at not less a distance than 300 feet from a neighbour's (Telfy), and the latter forbidding the decoying of bees.
(17) Property. (a) Both in Athens and in the Laws, a person disputing property they possess must provide the name of the person from whom they received it (Telfy); and anyone searching for lost property must enter a house naked (Telfy), or, as Plato puts it, 'naked, or wearing only a short tunic and without a belt.' (b) Athenian law, as well as Plato, did not permit a father to disinherit his son without a valid reason and the agreement of impartial individuals (Telfy). No special claims on the family estate are granted to the eldest son (Telfy). In matters of inheritance, both systems favor males over females (Telfy). (c) Plato and Athenian law stipulated that a tree should be planted a fair distance away from a neighbor's property (Telfy), and that if a man could not obtain water, his neighbor must provide it (Telfy). In both Athens and Plato's laws, there are regulations concerning bees; the former requires that a beehive must be set up at least 300 feet away from a neighbor's property (Telfy), while the latter prohibits the luring of bees.
(18) Orphans. A ward must proceed against a guardian whom he suspects of fraud within five years of the expiration of the guardianship. This provision is common to Plato and to Athenian law (Telfy). Further, the latter enacted that the nearest male relation should marry or provide a husband for an heiress (Telfy),—a point in which Plato follows it closely.
(18) Orphans. A ward must take action against a guardian they suspect of fraud within five years after the guardianship ends. This rule is shared by both Plato and Athenian law (Telfy). Additionally, Athenian law stated that the closest male relative should marry or find a husband for an heiress (Telfy), which is something Plato also closely follows.
(19) Contracts. Plato's law that 'when a man makes an agreement which he does not fulfil, unless the agreement be of a nature which the law or a vote of the assembly does not allow, or which he has made under the influence of some unjust compulsion, or which he is prevented from fulfilling against his will by some unexpected chance,—the other party may go to law with him,' according to Pollux (quoted in Telfy's note) prevailed also at Athens.
(19) Contracts. Plato's rule that "when a person makes an agreement that they do not honor, unless the agreement is one that the law or a vote of the assembly prohibits, or if they made it under some unjust pressure, or if they are prevented from fulfilling it against their will by some unforeseen circumstance—the other party can take legal action against them," as noted by Pollux (quoted in Telfy's note), was also accepted in Athens.
(20) Trade regulations. (a) Lying was forbidden in the agora both by Plato and at Athens (Telfy). (b) Athenian law allowed an action of recovery against a man who sold an unsound slave as sound (Telfy). Plato's enactment is more explicit: he allows only an unskilled person (i.e. one who is not a trainer or physician) to take proceedings in such a case. (c) Plato diverges from Athenian practice in the disapproval of credit, and does not even allow the supply of goods on the deposit of a percentage of their value (Telfy). He enacts that 'when goods are exchanged by buying and selling, a man shall deliver them and receive the price of them at a fixed place in the agora, and have done with the matter,' and that 'he who gives credit must be satisfied whether he obtain his money or not, for in such exchanges he will not be protected by law. (d) Athenian law forbad an extortionate rate of interest (Telfy); Plato allows interest in one case only—if a contractor does not receive the price of his work within a year of the time agreed—and at the rate of 200 per cent. per annum for every drachma a monthly interest of an obol. (e) Both at Athens and in the Laws sales were to be registered (Telfy), as well as births (Telfy).
(20) Trade regulations. (a) Lying was banned in the marketplace both by Plato and in Athens (Telfy). (b) Athenian law permitted a recovery action against someone who sold an unsound slave as if he were sound (Telfy). Plato's rule is clearer: he only allows an unskilled person (meaning someone who isn’t a trainer or doctor) to take legal action in such cases. (c) Plato differs from Athenian customs by rejecting credit, and he doesn’t even permit providing goods in exchange for a percentage of their value (Telfy). He stipulates that 'when goods are exchanged through buying and selling, a person must deliver them and receive the price at a fixed location in the marketplace, and conclude the matter,' and that 'anyone who extends credit must accept whether or not they get their money, for in such transactions, they won't be protected by law.' (d) Athenian law prohibited charging excessive interest (Telfy); Plato allows interest in only one situation—if a contractor doesn't get paid for their work within a year as agreed—and at an annual rate of 200 percent for every drachma, with a monthly interest of an obol. (e) Both in Athens and in the Laws, sales were required to be registered (Telfy), as well as births (Telfy).
(21) Sumptuary laws. Extravagance at weddings (Telfy), and at funerals (Telfy) was forbidden at Athens and also in the Magnesian state.
(21) Sumptuary laws. Spending too much at weddings (Telfy) and at funerals (Telfy) was banned in Athens and in the Magnesian state.
There remains the subject of family life, which in Plato's Laws partakes both of an Athenian and Spartan character. Under this head may conveniently be included the condition of women and of slaves. To family life may be added citizenship.
There’s still the topic of family life, which in Plato's Laws has elements of both Athenian and Spartan styles. This category also conveniently includes the status of women and slaves. You can also add citizenship to family life.
As at Sparta, marriages are to be contracted for the good of the state; and they may be dissolved on the same ground, where there is a failure of issue,—the interest of the state requiring that every one of the 5040 lots should have an heir. Divorces are likewise permitted by Plato where there is an incompatibility of temper, as at Athens by mutual consent. The duty of having children is also enforced by a still higher motive, expressed by Plato in the noble words:—'A man should cling to immortality, and leave behind him children's children to be the servants of God in his place.' Again, as at Athens, the father is allowed to put away his undutiful son, but only with the consent of impartial persons (Telfy), and the only suit which may be brought by a son against a father is for imbecility. The class of elder and younger men and women are still to regard one another, as in the Republic, as standing in the relation of parents and children. This is a trait of Spartan character rather than of Athenian. A peculiar sanctity and tenderness was to be shown towards the aged; the parent or grandparent stricken with years was to be loved and worshipped like the image of a God, and was to be deemed far more able than any lifeless statue to bring good or ill to his descendants. Great care is to be taken of orphans: they are entrusted to the fifteen eldest Guardians of the Law, who are to be 'lawgivers and fathers to them not inferior to their natural fathers,' as at Athens they were entrusted to the Archons. Plato wishes to make the misfortune of orphanhood as little sad to them as possible.
Just like in Sparta, marriages are meant to benefit the state, and they can be ended for the same reason if there are no children, since the state's interest requires each of the 5040 lots to have an heir. Plato also allows divorces for incompatibility of temperament, similar to how it's handled in Athens by mutual consent. The responsibility to have children is emphasized by a higher motivation, which Plato expresses beautifully: "A man should strive for immortality and leave behind grandchildren to serve God in his place." Additionally, like in Athens, a father can disown a disobedient son, but only with the agreement of unbiased witnesses, and the only legal action a son can take against his father is for incompetency. The older and younger men and women are still expected to view each other, as in the Republic, as being in a parent-child relationship. This is more characteristic of Spartan values than Athenian. A special respect and care was to be shown to the elderly; parents or grandparents who are aging are to be loved and revered like a divine figure, seen as much more capable of influencing the fortunes of their descendants than any lifeless statue. Great care must be taken of orphans: they are entrusted to the fifteen oldest Guardians of the Law, who are to act as "lawgivers and fathers to them, no less than their biological fathers," just as in Athens, they were cared for by the Archons. Plato aims to make orphanhood as little sorrowful for them as possible.
Plato, seeing the disorder into which half the human race had fallen at Athens and Sparta, is minded to frame for them a new rule of life. He renounces his fanciful theory of communism, but still desires to place women as far as possible on an equality with men. They were to be trained in the use of arms, they are to live in public. Their time was partly taken up with gymnastic exercises; there could have been little family or private life among them. Their lot was to be neither like that of Spartan women, who were made hard and common by excessive practice of gymnastic and the want of all other education,—nor yet like that of Athenian women, who, at least among the upper classes, retired into a sort of oriental seclusion,—but something better than either. They were to be the perfect mothers of perfect children, yet not wholly taken up with the duties of motherhood, which were to be made easy to them as far as possible (compare Republic), but able to share in the perils of war and to be the companions of their husbands. Here, more than anywhere else, the spirit of the Laws reverts to the Republic. In speaking of them as the companions of their husbands we must remember that it is an Athenian and not a Spartan way of life which they are invited to share, a life of gaiety and brightness, not of austerity and abstinence, which often by a reaction degenerated into licence and grossness.
Plato, noticing the chaos half of humanity had fallen into at Athens and Sparta, decides to create a new way of life for them. He gives up his imaginative idea of communism but still wants to place women as close to equality with men as possible. They were to be trained to use weapons and live publicly. Their time would mostly be spent on physical training; there would be little room for family or private life among them. Their situation was meant to be different from Spartan women, who became tough and ordinary from excessive training and lack of other education, and also different from Athenian women, who, at least among the upper classes, withdrew into a kind of eastern-style seclusion—something better than either. They were meant to be ideal mothers of ideal children, but not completely consumed by motherhood, which was to be made easier for them whenever possible (see Republic), while also being able to participate in the dangers of war and be companions to their husbands. Here, more than anywhere else, the spirit of the Laws returns to the Republic. When referring to them as companions of their husbands, we must remember that this is an Athenian way of life they're invited to share, one of joy and brightness, not of strictness and abstinence, which often sometimes turned into excess and vulgarity.
In Plato's age the subject of slavery greatly interested the minds of thoughtful men; and how best to manage this 'troublesome piece of goods' exercised his own mind a good deal. He admits that they have often been found better than brethren or sons in the hour of danger, and are capable of rendering important public services by informing against offenders—for this they are to be rewarded; and the master who puts a slave to death for the sake of concealing some crime which he has committed, is held guilty of murder. But they are not always treated with equal consideration. The punishments inflicted on them bear no proportion to their crimes. They are to be addressed only in the language of command. Their masters are not to jest with them, lest they should increase the hardship of their lot. Some privileges were granted to them by Athenian law of which there is no mention in Plato; they were allowed to purchase their freedom from their master, and if they despaired of being liberated by him they could demand to be sold, on the chance of falling into better hands. But there is no suggestion in the Laws that a slave who tried to escape should be branded with the words—kateche me, pheugo, or that evidence should be extracted from him by torture, that the whole household was to be executed if the master was murdered and the perpetrator remained undetected: all these were provisions of Athenian law. Plato is more consistent than either the Athenians or the Spartans; for at Sparta too the Helots were treated in a manner almost unintelligible to us. On the one hand, they had arms put into their hands, and served in the army, not only, as at Plataea, in attendance on their masters, but, after they had been manumitted, as a separate body of troops called Neodamodes: on the other hand, they were the victims of one of the greatest crimes recorded in Greek history (Thucyd.). The two great philosophers of Hellas sought to extricate themselves from this cruel condition of human life, but acquiesced in the necessity of it. A noble and pathetic sentiment of Plato, suggested by the thought of their misery, may be quoted in this place:—'The right treatment of slaves is to behave properly to them, and to do to them, if possible, even more justice than to those who are our equals; for he who naturally and genuinely reverences justice, and hates injustice, is discovered in his dealings with any class of men to whom he can easily be unjust. And he who in regard to the natures and actions of his slaves is undefiled by impiety and injustice, will best sow the seeds of virtue in them; and this may be truly said of every master, and tyrant, and of every other having authority in relation to his inferiors.'
In Plato's time, people were really interested in the topic of slavery, and he spent a lot of time thinking about how to handle this "troublesome piece of goods." He acknowledged that slaves often performed better than brothers or sons in moments of danger and could provide important public services by informing on wrongdoers—this should be rewarded. A master who kills a slave to hide a crime committed by the slave is guilty of murder. However, slaves are not always treated fairly. The punishment they receive often doesn't match their offenses. They are only spoken to in commands. Masters should not joke with them, as it could make their situation even harder. Athenian law granted some privileges that Plato doesn't mention: slaves could buy their freedom from their masters, and if they lost hope of being freed, they could ask to be sold, hoping to be in better hands. But the Laws do not suggest that a slave attempting to escape should be branded with the words "let me go" or that evidence should be obtained through torture, nor does it state that the whole household should be executed if the master was murdered and the culprit remained unknown—these are all parts of Athenian law. Plato is more consistent than the Athenians or Spartans; in Sparta, the Helots were treated in ways that seem almost incomprehensible to us. On one hand, they were given weapons and served in the army, not just in attendance of their masters but also, after being freed, as a distinct group of soldiers called Neodamodes. On the other hand, they suffered from one of the greatest injustices recorded in Greek history. The two great philosophers of Greece tried to find a way out of this harsh reality, yet accepted that it was necessary. A noble and touching sentiment from Plato, inspired by the thought of their suffering, can be quoted here: "The right treatment of slaves is to treat them well and, if possible, to do more justice for them than for those who are our equals; because someone who genuinely respects justice and despises injustice will show themselves in their interactions with any group of people to whom they could easily be unfair. And someone who remains free of impiety and injustice regarding the natures and actions of their slaves will best cultivate virtue in them; and this can truly be said of every master, tyrant, and anyone else in authority over their inferiors."
All the citizens of the Magnesian state were free and equal; there was no distinction of rank among them, such as is believed to have prevailed at Sparta. Their number was a fixed one, corresponding to the 5040 lots. One of the results of this is the requirement that younger sons or those who have been disinherited shall go out to a colony. At Athens, where there was not the same religious feeling against increasing the size of the city, the number of citizens must have been liable to considerable fluctuations. Several classes of persons, who were not citizens by birth, were admitted to the privilege. Perpetual exiles from other countries, people who settled there to practise a trade (Telfy), any one who had shown distinguished valour in the cause of Athens, the Plataeans who escaped from the siege, metics and strangers who offered to serve in the army, the slaves who fought at Arginusae,—all these could or did become citizens. Even those who were only on one side of Athenian parentage were at more than one period accounted citizens. But at times there seems to have arisen a feeling against this promiscuous extension of the citizen body, an expression of which is to be found in the law of Pericles—monous Athenaious einai tous ek duoin Athenaion gegonotas (Plutarch, Pericles); and at no time did the adopted citizen enjoy the full rights of citizenship—e.g. he might not be elected archon or to the office of priest (Telfy), although this prohibition did not extend to his children, if born of a citizen wife. Plato never thinks of making the metic, much less the slave, a citizen. His treatment of the former class is at once more gentle and more severe than that which prevailed at Athens. He imposes upon them no tax but good behaviour, whereas at Athens they were required to pay twelve drachmae per annum, and to have a patron: on the other hand, he only allows them to reside in the Magnesian state on condition of following a trade; they were required to depart when their property exceeded that of the third class, and in any case after a residence of twenty years, unless they could show that they had conferred some great benefit on the state. This privileged position reflects that of the isoteleis at Athens, who were excused from the metoikion. It is Plato's greatest concession to the metic, as the bestowal of freedom is his greatest concession to the slave.
All the citizens of the Magnesian state were free and equal; there was no ranking among them, unlike what is thought to have existed in Sparta. Their number was set at 5040 lots. One outcome of this is that younger sons or those who have been disinherited must leave for a colony. In Athens, where there was no similar religious opposition to expanding the city, the citizen count likely varied widely. Several groups of people who were not citizens by birth were granted this privilege. Permanent exiles from other regions, individuals who moved there to do business, anyone who demonstrated exceptional bravery for Athens, the Plataeans who escaped the siege, metics and foreigners who offered to join the army, and the slaves who fought at Arginusae—all of these could or did become citizens. Even those with Athenian parents on just one side were considered citizens at various times. However, there were moments when a sentiment arose against this indiscriminate inclusion of citizens, evident in the law of Pericles—monous Athenaious einai tous ek duoin Athenaion gegonotas (Plutarch, Pericles); and at no point did an adopted citizen possess the full rights of citizenship—for example, they could not be elected as archon or priest (Telfy), though this restriction did not apply to their children if born to a citizen wife. Plato never considers granting citizenship to metics, let alone slaves. His treatment of metics is both more lenient and stricter than what was practiced in Athens. He doesn't impose a tax on them but expects good behavior, while in Athens, they were required to pay twelve drachmae each year and have a patron: on the other hand, Plato only allowed them to live in the Magnesian state on the condition that they follow a trade; they had to leave when their wealth exceeded that of the third class and, in any case, after twenty years, unless they could demonstrate that they had provided significant benefits to the state. This privileged status mirrors that of the isoteleis in Athens, who were exempt from the metoikion. It represents Plato's greatest concession to metics, while granting freedom stands as his greatest concession to slaves.
Lastly, there is a more general point of view under which the Laws of Plato may be considered,—the principles of Jurisprudence which are contained in them. These are not formally announced, but are scattered up and down, to be observed by the reflective reader for himself. Some of them are only the common principles which all courts of justice have gathered from experience; others are peculiar and characteristic. That judges should sit at fixed times and hear causes in a regular order, that evidence should be laid before them, that false witnesses should be disallowed, and corruption punished, that defendants should be heard before they are convicted,—these are the rules, not only of the Hellenic courts, but of courts of law in all ages and countries. But there are also points which are peculiar, and in which ancient jurisprudence differs considerably from modern; some of them are of great importance...It could not be said at Athens, nor was it ever contemplated by Plato, that all men, including metics and slaves, should be equal 'in the eye of the law.' There was some law for the slave, but not much; no adequate protection was given him against the cruelty of his master...It was a singular privilege granted, both by the Athenian and Magnesian law, to a murdered man, that he might, before he died, pardon his murderer, in which case no legal steps were afterwards to be taken against him. This law is the remnant of an age in which the punishment of offences against the person was the concern rather of the individual and his kinsmen than of the state...Plato's division of crimes into voluntary and involuntary and those done from passion, only partially agrees with the distinction which modern law has drawn between murder and manslaughter; his attempt to analyze them is confused by the Socratic paradox, that 'All vice is involuntary'...It is singular that both in the Laws and at Athens theft is commonly punished by a twofold restitution of the article stolen. The distinction between civil and criminal courts or suits was not yet recognized...Possession gives a right of property after a certain time...The religious aspect under which certain offences were regarded greatly interfered with a just and natural estimate of their guilt...As among ourselves, the intent to murder was distinguished by Plato from actual murder...We note that both in Plato and the laws of Athens, libel in the market-place and personality in the theatre were forbidden...Both in Plato and Athenian law, as in modern times, the accomplice of a crime is to be punished as well as the principal...Plato does not allow a witness in a cause to act as a judge of it...Oaths are not to be taken by the parties to a suit...Both at Athens and in Plato's Laws capital punishment for murder was not to be inflicted, if the offender was willing to go into exile...Respect for the dead, duty towards parents, are to be enforced by the law as well as by public opinion...Plato proclaims the noble sentiment that the object of all punishment is the improvement of the offender... Finally, he repeats twice over, as with the voice of a prophet, that the crimes of the fathers are not to be visited upon the children. In this respect he is nobly distinguished from the Oriental, and indeed from the spirit of Athenian law (compare Telfy,—dei kai autous kai tous ek touton atimous einai), as the Hebrew in the age of Ezekial is from the Jewish people of former ages.
Lastly, there is a broader perspective under which Plato's Laws can be viewed—the principles of jurisprudence they contain. These principles aren't formally stated but are scattered throughout, meant to be discovered by thoughtful readers. Some are just the common principles that all courts of justice have learned from experience; others are unique and distinctive. For instance, judges should sit at regular times and hear cases in an orderly fashion, evidence should be presented to them, false witnesses should be disallowed, and corruption punished, and defendants should be heard before any conviction—these rules apply not only to Greek courts but to courts of law in all times and places. However, there are aspects that are unique and where ancient jurisprudence significantly differs from modern practices; some of these aspects are quite important... In Athens, it couldn't be said, nor was it ever suggested by Plato, that all individuals, including metics and slaves, should be considered equal "in the eyes of the law." There were laws for slaves, but they were limited; no adequate protection was provided against the cruelty of their masters... A unique privilege granted in both Athenian and Magnesian law allowed a murdered person to pardon their murderer before dying, in which case no legal action would be taken against them afterward. This law is a remnant of an era where the punishment for offenses against individuals was more the concern of the person and their family than of the state... Plato's classification of crimes into voluntary and involuntary, including those driven by passion, only partially matches the distinction modern law makes between murder and manslaughter; his attempt to analyze them is complicated by the Socratic paradox that "All vice is involuntary"... It is noteworthy that in both the Laws and in Athens, theft is typically punished by requiring the thief to return double the stolen item. The distinction between civil and criminal courts or cases had not yet been established... Possession confers property rights after a certain period... The religious viewpoint of certain offenses greatly affected a fair and natural assessment of their guilt... Just like today, Plato distinguished the intent to murder from actual murder... We observe that both in Plato and Athenian law, libel in public places and defamatory acts in the theater were prohibited... In both Plato and Athenian law, just as today, accomplices in a crime are to be punished alongside the main perpetrator... Plato does not permit a witness in a case to also serve as a judge in that case... Oaths should not be taken by the parties involved in a lawsuit... Both in Athens and in Plato's Laws, capital punishment for murder was not to be carried out if the offender chose to go into exile... Respect for the dead and duty towards parents should be upheld by law as well as by societal norms... Plato strongly asserts that the purpose of punishment is to reform the offender... Finally, he emphasizes that the crimes of parents should not be punished on their children. In this regard, he stands apart from the Oriental approach and the mentality of Athenian law, much like the Hebrew people in the time of Ezekiel differ from the Jewish people of earlier times.
Of all Plato's provisions the object is to bring the practice of the law more into harmony with reason and philosophy; to secure impartiality, and while acknowledging that every citizen has a right to share in the administration of justice, to counteract the tendency of the courts to become mere popular assemblies.
Of all of Plato's ideas, the goal is to align the practice of law more closely with reason and philosophy; to ensure fairness, and while recognizing that every citizen has the right to participate in the administration of justice, to prevent the courts from simply turning into popular gatherings.
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Thus we have arrived at the end of the writings of Plato, and at the last stage of philosophy which was really his. For in what followed, which we chiefly gather from the uncertain intimations of Aristotle, the spirit of the master no longer survived. The doctrine of Ideas passed into one of numbers; instead of advancing from the abstract to the concrete, the theories of Plato were taken out of their context, and either asserted or refuted with a provoking literalism; the Socratic or Platonic element in his teaching was absorbed into the Pythagorean or Megarian. His poetry was converted into mysticism; his unsubstantial visions were assailed secundum artem by the rules of logic. His political speculations lost their interest when the freedom of Hellas had passed away. Of all his writings the Laws were the furthest removed from the traditions of the Platonic school in the next generation. Both his political and his metaphysical philosophy are for the most part misinterpreted by Aristotle. The best of him—his love of truth, and his 'contemplation of all time and all existence,' was soonest lost; and some of his greatest thoughts have slept in the ear of mankind almost ever since they were first uttered.
So, we've reached the end of Plato's works, and the final stage of the philosophy that was truly his. In what came after, particularly from the uncertain hints of Aristotle, the essence of the master was no longer present. The idea of Forms turned into a matter of numbers; instead of moving from the abstract to the concrete, Plato's theories were taken out of context and either confirmed or challenged with annoying literalism. The Socratic or Platonic aspects of his teachings were absorbed into Pythagorean or Megarian thought. His poetry transformed into mysticism, and his vague visions were rigorously attacked by the rules of logic. His political ideas lost their appeal when the freedom of Greece faded away. Of all his writings, the Laws strayed the furthest from the traditions of the Platonic school in the next generation. Both his political and metaphysical philosophies are mostly misinterpreted by Aristotle. The best parts of him—his love for truth and his 'contemplation of all time and all existence'—were lost the soonest; and some of his greatest thoughts have gone unheard by humanity almost since the moment they were first expressed.
We have followed him during his forty or fifty years of authorship, from the beginning when he first attempted to depict the teaching of Socrates in a dramatic form, down to the time at which the character of Socrates had disappeared, and we have the latest reflections of Plato's own mind upon Hellas and upon philosophy. He, who was 'the last of the poets,' in his book of Laws writes prose only; he has himself partly fallen under the rhetorical influences which in his earlier dialogues he was combating. The progress of his writings is also the history of his life; we have no other authentic life of him. They are the true self of the philosopher, stripped of the accidents of time and place. The great effort which he makes is, first, to realize abstractions, secondly, to connect them. In the attempt to realize them, he was carried into a transcendental region in which he isolated them from experience, and we pass out of the range of science into poetry or fiction. The fancies of mythology for a time cast a veil over the gulf which divides phenomena from onta (Meno, Phaedrus, Symposium, Phaedo). In his return to earth Plato meets with a difficulty which has long ceased to be a difficulty to us. He cannot understand how these obstinate, unmanageable ideas, residing alone in their heaven of abstraction, can be either combined with one another, or adapted to phenomena (Parmenides, Philebus, Sophist). That which is the most familiar process of our own minds, to him appeared to be the crowning achievement of the dialectical art. The difficulty which in his own generation threatened to be the destruction of philosophy, he has rendered unmeaning and ridiculous. For by his conquests in the world of mind our thoughts are widened, and he has furnished us with new dialectical instruments which are of greater compass and power. We have endeavoured to see him as he truly was, a great original genius struggling with unequal conditions of knowledge, not prepared with a system nor evolving in a series of dialogues ideas which he had long conceived, but contradictory, enquiring as he goes along, following the argument, first from one point of view and then from another, and therefore arriving at opposite conclusions, hovering around the light, and sometimes dazzled with excess of light, but always moving in the same element of ideal truth. We have seen him also in his decline, when the wings of his imagination have begun to droop, but his experience of life remains, and he turns away from the contemplation of the eternal to take a last sad look at human affairs.
We have followed him during his forty or fifty years of writing, from the beginning when he first tried to portray Socrates’ teachings in a dramatic way, to the point where the character of Socrates has disappeared, and we see the latest thoughts of Plato himself on Greece and philosophy. He, who was "the last of the poets," writes only in prose in his book of Laws; he has partly succumbed to the rhetorical influences he was fighting against in his earlier dialogues. The development of his writings is also the story of his life; we have no other authentic account of him. They represent the true self of the philosopher, free from the distractions of time and place. His main effort is, first, to make abstract concepts real, and second, to connect them. In trying to realize those concepts, he was taken into a transcendental realm where he separated them from experience, moving us from the realm of science into poetry or fiction. The myths for a while obscured the gap between phenomena and reality (Meno, Phaedrus, Symposium, Phaedo). When he comes back to reality, Plato grapples with a problem that we no longer find challenging. He struggles to understand how these stubborn, unmanageable ideas, existing alone in their abstract heaven, can be combined with each other or aligned with real phenomena (Parmenides, Philebus, Sophist). What is a straightforward process for our minds appeared to him as the ultimate achievement of dialectical skill. The challenges that once threatened the demise of philosophy in his own time now seem trivial and absurd thanks to his breakthroughs in the realm of thought, which have broadened our understanding and provided us with new dialectical tools that are more expansive and powerful. We have tried to see him as he truly was, a brilliant original thinker grappling with limited knowledge, not equipped with a system or developing a series of ideas he had long contemplated, but instead questioning as he progresses, viewing the argument from one perspective and then another, leading to opposing conclusions, circling around the truth, sometimes overwhelmed by its brilliance, but always moving within the sphere of ideal truth. We have also witnessed his decline, as his imaginative capabilities begin to fade, yet his life experiences remain, causing him to turn away from the contemplation of the eternal to take one last, sorrowful look at human affairs.
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And so having brought into the world 'noble children' (Phaedr.), he rests from the labours of authorship. More than two thousand two hundred years have passed away since he returned to the place of Apollo and the Muses. Yet the echo of his words continues to be heard among men, because of all philosophers he has the most melodious voice. He is the inspired prophet or teacher who can never die, the only one in whom the outward form adequately represents the fair soul within; in whom the thoughts of all who went before him are reflected and of all who come after him are partly anticipated. Other teachers of philosophy are dried up and withered,—after a few centuries they have become dust; but he is fresh and blooming, and is always begetting new ideas in the minds of men. They are one-sided and abstract; but he has many sides of wisdom. Nor is he always consistent with himself, because he is always moving onward, and knows that there are many more things in philosophy than can be expressed in words, and that truth is greater than consistency. He who approaches him in the most reverent spirit shall reap most of the fruit of his wisdom; he who reads him by the light of ancient commentators will have the least understanding of him.
And so, after bringing 'noble children' into the world (Phaedr.), he takes a break from the hard work of writing. More than 2,200 years have passed since he returned to the realm of Apollo and the Muses. Yet, the impact of his words is still felt among people because, of all philosophers, he has the most beautiful expression. He is the inspired prophet or teacher who can never truly die, the only one whose outward appearance perfectly reflects the beautiful soul within; he embodies the thoughts of all who came before him and hints at the ideas of those who will come after. Other philosophy teachers become stale and forgotten after a few centuries; they turn to dust, but he remains fresh and vibrant, constantly generating new ideas in the minds of people. While they may be limited and abstract, he possesses a well-rounded wisdom. He isn’t always consistent with himself because he continues to evolve, understanding that there is much more in philosophy than can be articulated and that truth surpasses consistency. Those who approach him with deep respect will gain the most from his wisdom; those who read him through the lens of ancient commentators will understand him the least.
We may see him with the eye of the mind in the groves of the Academy, or on the banks of the Ilissus, or in the streets of Athens, alone or walking with Socrates, full of those thoughts which have since become the common possession of mankind. Or we may compare him to a statue hid away in some temple of Zeus or Apollo, no longer existing on earth, a statue which has a look as of the God himself. Or we may once more imagine him following in another state of being the great company of heaven which he beheld of old in a vision (Phaedr.). So, 'partly trifling, but with a certain degree of seriousness' (Symp.), we linger around the memory of a world which has passed away (Phaedr.).
We can picture him in our minds wandering through the groves of the Academy, along the banks of the Ilissus, or in the streets of Athens, either alone or walking with Socrates, filled with the thoughts that have become part of humanity's shared knowledge. We might also think of him as a statue hidden away in a temple dedicated to Zeus or Apollo, no longer present on earth, a statue that seems to embody the God himself. Alternatively, we could imagine him in another existence following the great company of heaven that he once witnessed in a vision (Phaedr.). So, 'partly trivial, but with a certain degree of seriousness' (Symp.), we linger on the memory of a world that has vanished (Phaedr.).
LAWS
BOOK I.
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: An Athenian Stranger, Cleinias (a Cretan), Megillus (a Lacedaemonian).
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: An Athenian Stranger, Cleinias (a Cretan), Megillus (a Spartan).
ATHENIAN: Tell me, Strangers, is a God or some man supposed to be the author of your laws?
ATHENIAN: Tell me, strangers, do you think a god or some person is responsible for your laws?
CLEINIAS: A God, Stranger; in very truth a God: among us Cretans he is said to have been Zeus, but in Lacedaemon, whence our friend here comes, I believe they would say that Apollo is their lawgiver: would they not, Megillus?
CLEINIAS: A God, Stranger; truly a God. Among us Cretans, he's said to be Zeus, but in Lacedaemon, where our friend here comes from, I believe they'd say that Apollo is their lawgiver, right, Megillus?
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: And do you, Cleinias, believe, as Homer tells, that every ninth year Minos went to converse with his Olympian sire, and was inspired by him to make laws for your cities?
ATHENIAN: So, Cleinias, do you believe, like Homer says, that every nine years Minos went to talk to his father in Olympus and was inspired by him to create laws for your cities?
CLEINIAS: Yes, that is our tradition; and there was Rhadamanthus, a brother of his, with whose name you are familiar; he is reputed to have been the justest of men, and we Cretans are of opinion that he earned this reputation from his righteous administration of justice when he was alive.
CLEINIAS: Yes, that's our tradition; and there was Rhadamanthus, his brother, whose name you know; he's said to have been the most just of men, and we Cretans believe he earned this reputation through his fair handling of justice when he was alive.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and a noble reputation it was, worthy of a son of Zeus. As you and Megillus have been trained in these institutions, I dare say that you will not be unwilling to give an account of your government and laws; on our way we can pass the time pleasantly in talking about them, for I am told that the distance from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus is considerable; and doubtless there are shady places under the lofty trees, which will protect us from this scorching sun. Being no longer young, we may often stop to rest beneath them, and get over the whole journey without difficulty, beguiling the time by conversation.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and it was a great reputation, fitting for a son of Zeus. Since you and Megillus have been trained in these institutions, I bet you won’t mind discussing your government and laws; we can enjoy our time talking about them as we go, because I’ve heard that the distance from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus is quite long. I’m sure there are shady spots under the tall trees that will shelter us from this blazing sun. Since we’re no longer young, we can take breaks under them and complete the journey without much trouble, passing the time with conversation.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger, and if we proceed onward we shall come to groves of cypresses, which are of rare height and beauty, and there are green meadows, in which we may repose and converse.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger, and if we keep going, we'll arrive at beautiful cypress groves that are unusually tall and stunning. There are also green meadows where we can relax and chat.
ATHENIAN: Very good.
Athenian: Awesome.
CLEINIAS: Very good, indeed; and still better when we see them; let us move on cheerily.
CLEINIAS: Great, really; and even better when we actually see them; let’s keep going with a positive attitude.
ATHENIAN: I am willing—And first, I want to know why the law has ordained that you shall have common meals and gymnastic exercises, and wear arms.
ATHENIAN: I'm open to this—But first, I want to understand why the law requires you to share meals and do physical training, and to carry weapons.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that the aim of our institutions is easily intelligible to any one. Look at the character of our country: Crete is not like Thessaly, a large plain; and for this reason they have horsemen in Thessaly, and we have runners—the inequality of the ground in our country is more adapted to locomotion on foot; but then, if you have runners you must have light arms—no one can carry a heavy weight when running, and bows and arrows are convenient because they are light. Now all these regulations have been made with a view to war, and the legislator appears to me to have looked to this in all his arrangements:—the common meals, if I am not mistaken, were instituted by him for a similar reason, because he saw that while they are in the field the citizens are by the nature of the case compelled to take their meals together for the sake of mutual protection. He seems to me to have thought the world foolish in not understanding that all men are always at war with one another; and if in war there ought to be common meals and certain persons regularly appointed under others to protect an army, they should be continued in peace. For what men in general term peace would be said by him to be only a name; in reality every city is in a natural state of war with every other, not indeed proclaimed by heralds, but everlasting. And if you look closely, you will find that this was the intention of the Cretan legislator; all institutions, private as well as public, were arranged by him with a view to war; in giving them he was under the impression that no possessions or institutions are of any value to him who is defeated in battle; for all the good things of the conquered pass into the hands of the conquerors.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that the purpose of our institutions is pretty clear to anyone. Just look at our country: Crete isn’t like Thessaly, which is a vast plain; that’s why they have horsemen in Thessaly, while we have runners—the uneven terrain here is better suited for running. But if you have runners, you need light weapons—no one can carry a heavy load while running, and bows and arrows are handy because they’re lightweight. All these rules were created with war in mind, and it seems the legislator considered this in all his plans: the communal meals, if I’m not mistaken, were established for a similar reason, since he realized that when they’re in the field, citizens naturally have to eat together for mutual protection. He seems to have thought it foolish that people don’t see that everyone is always at war with one another; and if there should be communal meals and certain people designated to protect an army during war, then those arrangements should also apply during peace. What people generally call peace would be regarded by him as just a label; in truth, every city is naturally at war with every other city, not formally declared by heralds, but constantly ongoing. And if you look closely, you’ll see that this was the intent of the Cretan legislator; all institutions, both private and public, were designed with war in mind; he believed that nothing has value for someone who is defeated in battle, since all the possessions of the conquered go to the victors.
ATHENIAN: You appear to me, Stranger, to have been thoroughly trained in the Cretan institutions, and to be well informed about them; will you tell me a little more explicitly what is the principle of government which you would lay down? You seem to imagine that a well-governed state ought to be so ordered as to conquer all other states in war: am I right in supposing this to be your meaning?
ATHENIAN: You seem to me, Stranger, to be well-versed in the Cretan system and knowledgeable about it; could you explain a bit more clearly what principle of government you would propose? It looks like you believe that a well-governed state should be structured to defeat all other states in battle: am I correct in thinking that’s what you mean?
CLEINIAS: Certainly; and our Lacedaemonian friend, if I am not mistaken, will agree with me.
CLEINIAS: Definitely; and our Spartan friend, if I'm not mistaken, will agree with me.
MEGILLUS: Why, my good friend, how could any Lacedaemonian say anything else?
MEGILLUS: My good friend, how could any Spartan say anything different?
ATHENIAN: And is what you say applicable only to states, or also to villages?
ATHENIAN: Is what you’re saying only relevant to states, or does it apply to villages too?
CLEINIAS: To both alike.
CLEINIAS: To both of them.
ATHENIAN: The case is the same?
ATHENIAN: Is the situation the same?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: And in the village will there be the same war of family against family, and of individual against individual?
ATHENIAN: Will there be the same conflict in the village, with families fighting against each other and individuals against individuals?
CLEINIAS: The same.
CLEINIAS: Same here.
ATHENIAN: And should each man conceive himself to be his own enemy:—what shall we say?
ATHENIAN: And if each person sees themselves as their own enemy—what should we say?
CLEINIAS: O Athenian Stranger—inhabitant of Attica I will not call you, for you seem to deserve rather to be named after the goddess herself, because you go back to first principles,—you have thrown a light upon the argument, and will now be better able to understand what I was just saying,—that all men are publicly one another's enemies, and each man privately his own.
CLEINIAS: Oh Athenian Stranger—since you live in Attica, I'm hesitant to just call you that, because you seem more deserving of a name that reflects the goddess herself. You've returned to the fundamentals and shed light on the discussion, so you’ll have a clearer grasp of what I was just saying—that all people are enemies to each other in public, and each person is their own enemy in private.
(ATHENIAN: My good sir, what do you mean?)—
(ATHENIAN: My good man, what are you saying?)—
CLEINIAS:...Moreover, there is a victory and defeat—the first and best of victories, the lowest and worst of defeats—which each man gains or sustains at the hands, not of another, but of himself; this shows that there is a war against ourselves going on within every one of us.
CLEINIAS:...Also, there’s a victory and a defeat—the highest and greatest victory, the lowest and worst defeat—that each person achieves or suffers through their own actions, not due to anyone else. This indicates that there’s a battle within each of us.
ATHENIAN: Let us now reverse the order of the argument: Seeing that every individual is either his own superior or his own inferior, may we say that there is the same principle in the house, the village, and the state?
ATHENIAN: Let's change the order of the argument: Since every person is either better or worse than themselves, can we say that the same principle applies in the household, the community, and the state?
CLEINIAS: You mean that in each of them there is a principle of superiority or inferiority to self?
CLEINIAS: Are you saying that each of them has a basis for being better or worse compared to itself?
ATHENIAN: Yes.
Yes.
CLEINIAS: You are quite right in asking the question, for there certainly is such a principle, and above all in states; and the state in which the better citizens win a victory over the mob and over the inferior classes may be truly said to be better than itself, and may be justly praised, where such a victory is gained, or censured in the opposite case.
CLEINIAS: You're absolutely right to ask that question because there is definitely a principle here. Especially in societies, the state where the better citizens succeed over the crowd and the lower classes can genuinely be considered better than it normally is and deserves praise when that success happens, or criticism if the opposite occurs.
ATHENIAN: Whether the better is ever really conquered by the worse, is a question which requires more discussion, and may be therefore left for the present. But I now quite understand your meaning when you say that citizens who are of the same race and live in the same cities may unjustly conspire, and having the superiority in numbers may overcome and enslave the few just; and when they prevail, the state may be truly called its own inferior and therefore bad; and when they are defeated, its own superior and therefore good.
ATHENIAN: Whether the better can ever truly be defeated by the worse is a question that needs more discussion, so we can set that aside for now. But I completely understand what you mean when you say that citizens who belong to the same race and live in the same cities may unjustly conspire, and that by having greater numbers, they can overpower and enslave the few who are just. When they win, the state can genuinely be considered inferior and therefore bad; and when they lose, it can be considered superior and therefore good.
CLEINIAS: Your remark, Stranger, is a paradox, and yet we cannot possibly deny it.
CLEINIAS: What you said, Stranger, is a contradiction, yet we can't deny it.
ATHENIAN: Here is another case for consideration;—in a family there may be several brothers, who are the offspring of a single pair; very possibly the majority of them may be unjust, and the just may be in a minority.
ATHENIAN: Here's another situation to think about; in a family, there could be several brothers, all coming from the same parents; it's quite possible that most of them might be unjust, while the just ones are in the minority.
CLEINIAS: Very possibly.
CLEINIAS: Probably.
ATHENIAN: And you and I ought not to raise a question of words as to whether this family and household are rightly said to be superior when they conquer, and inferior when they are conquered; for we are not now considering what may or may not be the proper or customary way of speaking, but we are considering the natural principles of right and wrong in laws.
ATHENIAN: You and I shouldn’t get caught up in wordplay about whether this family and household are rightfully called superior when they win, and inferior when they lose. We’re not focused on what might be the proper or traditional way to express this; instead, we’re looking at the natural principles of right and wrong in laws.
CLEINIAS: What you say, Stranger, is most true.
CLEINIAS: What you’re saying, Stranger, is absolutely true.
MEGILLUS: Quite excellent, in my opinion, as far as we have gone.
MEGILLUS: I think it’s really great, considering how far we’ve come.
ATHENIAN: Again; might there not be a judge over these brethren, of whom we were speaking?
ATHENIAN: Again, could there be a judge for these brothers we've been talking about?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: Now, which would be the better judge—one who destroyed the bad and appointed the good to govern themselves; or one who, while allowing the good to govern, let the bad live, and made them voluntarily submit? Or third, I suppose, in the scale of excellence might be placed a judge, who, finding the family distracted, not only did not destroy any one, but reconciled them to one another for ever after, and gave them laws which they mutually observed, and was able to keep them friends.
ATHENIAN: So, who would make a better judge—one who got rid of the bad and let the good lead themselves, or one who allowed the good to govern while letting the bad live and made them willingly comply? Or, I guess, a third option for excellence could be a judge who, seeing a family in discord, not only refrained from destroying anyone but also brought them back together for good, gave them laws they all followed, and kept them on good terms.
CLEINIAS: The last would be by far the best sort of judge and legislator.
CLEINIAS: The last would definitely be the best kind of judge and lawmaker.
ATHENIAN: And yet the aim of all the laws which he gave would be the reverse of war.
ATHENIAN: And yet the purpose of all the laws he established would be the opposite of war.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And will he who constitutes the state and orders the life of man have in view external war, or that kind of intestine war called civil, which no one, if he could prevent, would like to have occurring in his own state; and when occurring, every one would wish to be quit of as soon as possible?
ATHENIAN: And will the person who creates the state and organizes human life focus on external war, or on the kind of internal conflict known as civil war, which no one would want happening in their own state if they could avoid it, and when it does happen, everyone would want to end it as soon as possible?
CLEINIAS: He would have the latter chiefly in view.
CLEINIAS: He would mainly focus on the latter.
ATHENIAN: And would he prefer that this civil war should be terminated by the destruction of one of the parties, and by the victory of the other, or that peace and friendship should be re-established, and that, being reconciled, they should give their attention to foreign enemies?
ATHENIAN: Would he rather see this civil war end with the destruction of one side and the victory of the other, or would he prefer that peace and friendship be restored, and that, once reconciled, they focus on external threats?
CLEINIAS: Every one would desire the latter in the case of his own state.
CLEINIAS: Everyone would want the latter in the case of their own state.
ATHENIAN: And would not that also be the desire of the legislator?
ATHENIAN: Wouldn't that also be what the legislator wants?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And would not every one always make laws for the sake of the best?
ATHENIAN: Wouldn't everyone always create laws for the best reason?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But war, whether external or civil, is not the best, and the need of either is to be deprecated; but peace with one another, and good will, are best. Nor is the victory of the state over itself to be regarded as a really good thing, but as a necessity; a man might as well say that the body was in the best state when sick and purged by medicine, forgetting that there is also a state of the body which needs no purge. And in like manner no one can be a true statesman, whether he aims at the happiness of the individual or state, who looks only, or first of all, to external warfare; nor will he ever be a sound legislator who orders peace for the sake of war, and not war for the sake of peace.
ATHENIAN: But war, whether it's fought against outsiders or within, isn't ideal, and we should avoid needing either; what’s best is to have peace among ourselves and good will towards each other. The success of a state over its own people shouldn’t be seen as a truly positive outcome, but rather as a necessity; it’s like saying the body is in the best shape when it’s sick and being treated with medicine, forgetting that there’s a state of health that doesn’t require any treatment. Similarly, no one can be a real statesman, whether they seek the happiness of the individual or the state, if they focus only, or primarily, on external conflict; nor can anyone be a good legislator if they promote peace for the sake of war, instead of war for the sake of peace.
CLEINIAS: I suppose that there is truth, Stranger, in that remark of yours; and yet I am greatly mistaken if war is not the entire aim and object of our own institutions, and also of the Lacedaemonian.
CLEINIAS: I think there's some truth to what you said, Stranger; still, I would be very wrong if I didn't believe that war is the main goal of our own institutions, as well as those of the Lacedaemonians.
ATHENIAN: I dare say; but there is no reason why we should rudely quarrel with one another about your legislators, instead of gently questioning them, seeing that both we and they are equally in earnest. Please follow me and the argument closely:—And first I will put forward Tyrtaeus, an Athenian by birth, but also a Spartan citizen, who of all men was most eager about war: Well, he says,
ATHENIAN: I think you're right; however, there's no reason for us to argue harshly about your lawmakers instead of asking them questions politely, since we all care just as much. Let's focus on the discussion closely:—First, I'll mention Tyrtaeus, who was born in Athens but was also a Spartan citizen, and who was the most passionate about war: Well, he says,
'I sing not, I care not, about any man,
'I don't sing, I don't care, about any man,
even if he were the richest of men, and possessed every good (and then he gives a whole list of them), if he be not at all times a brave warrior.' I imagine that you, too, must have heard his poems; our Lacedaemonian friend has probably heard more than enough of them.
even if he were the richest man and had every good thing (and then he lists a whole bunch of them), if he isn’t always a brave warrior." I assume you’ve heard his poems too; our friend from Sparta has probably heard more than his fair share.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: So true.
CLEINIAS: And they have found their way from Lacedaemon to Crete.
CLEINIAS: And they've made their way from Sparta to Crete.
ATHENIAN: Come now and let us all join in asking this question of Tyrtaeus: O most divine poet, we will say to him, the excellent praise which you have bestowed on those who excel in war sufficiently proves that you are wise and good, and I and Megillus and Cleinias of Cnosus do, as I believe, entirely agree with you. But we should like to be quite sure that we are speaking of the same men; tell us, then, do you agree with us in thinking that there are two kinds of war; or what would you say? A far inferior man to Tyrtaeus would have no difficulty in replying quite truly, that war is of two kinds,—one which is universally called civil war, and is, as we were just now saying, of all wars the worst; the other, as we should all admit, in which we fall out with other nations who are of a different race, is a far milder form of warfare.
ATHENIAN: Come on, let's all ask Tyrtaeus this question: O most divine poet, we want to say to you, the great praise you've given to those who excel in war shows that you are wise and good, and I, Megillus, and Cleinias of Cnosus, all completely agree with you. But we want to make sure we’re talking about the same people; so tell us, do you agree with us that there are two kinds of war, or what do you think? Even someone much less skilled than Tyrtaeus could easily point out that war comes in two forms—one that everyone calls civil war, which, as we just mentioned, is the worst of all wars; and the other, which we can all agree on, is when we clash with other nations of different races, and this is a much milder form of warfare.
CLEINIAS: Certainly, far milder.
CLEINIAS: Definitely much milder.
ATHENIAN: Well, now, when you praise and blame war in this high-flown strain, whom are you praising or blaming, and to which kind of war are you referring? I suppose that you must mean foreign war, if I am to judge from expressions of yours in which you say that you abominate those
ATHENIAN: So, when you praise or criticize war in such an exaggerated way, who exactly are you talking about, and which type of war are you referring to? I guess you're talking about foreign wars, based on your statements where you say you can't stand those.
'Who refuse to look upon fields of blood, and will not draw near and strike at their enemies.'
'Who refuse to look at fields of blood, and will not come closer and fight their enemies.'
And we shall naturally go on to say to him,—You, Tyrtaeus, as it seems, praise those who distinguish themselves in external and foreign war; and he must admit this.
And we will naturally say to him, "You, Tyrtaeus, seem to praise those who stand out in external and foreign wars," and he has to agree with this.
CLEINIAS: Evidently.
CLEINIAS: Clearly.
ATHENIAN: They are good; but we say that there are still better men whose virtue is displayed in the greatest of all battles. And we too have a poet whom we summon as a witness, Theognis, citizen of Megara in Sicily:
ATHENIAN: They are good, but we argue that there are even better people whose virtue shines in the greatest battle of all. And we also have a poet we can call as a witness, Theognis, a citizen of Megara in Sicily:
'Cyrnus,' he says, 'he who is faithful in a civil broil is worth his weight in gold and silver.'
'Cyrnus,' he says, 'someone who stays loyal during a civil conflict is worth their weight in gold and silver.'
And such an one is far better, as we affirm, than the other in a more difficult kind of war, much in the same degree as justice and temperance and wisdom, when united with courage, are better than courage only; for a man cannot be faithful and good in civil strife without having all virtue. But in the war of which Tyrtaeus speaks, many a mercenary soldier will take his stand and be ready to die at his post, and yet they are generally and almost without exception insolent, unjust, violent men, and the most senseless of human beings. You will ask what the conclusion is, and what I am seeking to prove: I maintain that the divine legislator of Crete, like any other who is worthy of consideration, will always and above all things in making laws have regard to the greatest virtue; which, according to Theognis, is loyalty in the hour of danger, and may be truly called perfect justice. Whereas, that virtue which Tyrtaeus highly praises is well enough, and was praised by the poet at the right time, yet in place and dignity may be said to be only fourth rate (i.e., it ranks after justice, temperance, and wisdom.).
And one type of person is far better, as we say, than the other in a more challenging kind of conflict, just as justice, self-control, and wisdom, when combined with courage, are better than courage alone; because a person cannot be loyal and good in civil war without embodying all virtues. But in the type of war that Tyrtaeus speaks of, many mercenary soldiers will stand their ground and be ready to die at their posts, and yet they are typically, and almost without exception, arrogant, unjust, violent individuals, and some of the most foolish people. You might ask what the conclusion is and what I’m trying to prove: I argue that the divine lawmaker of Crete, like anyone else deserving of respect, will always prioritize the highest virtue when crafting laws; which, as Theognis states, is loyalty in times of danger and can be truly called perfect justice. Meanwhile, the virtue that Tyrtaeus highly praises is decent and was rightly commended by the poet at the appropriate time, yet in terms of importance and ranking, it can be considered only fourth-rate (i.e., it comes after justice, self-control, and wisdom).
CLEINIAS: Stranger, we are degrading our inspired lawgiver to a rank which is far beneath him.
CLEINIAS: Hey, stranger, we're putting our inspired lawgiver down in a way that's way beneath him.
ATHENIAN: Nay, I think that we degrade not him but ourselves, if we imagine that Lycurgus and Minos laid down laws both in Lacedaemon and Crete mainly with a view to war.
ATHENIAN: No, I believe that we lower ourselves, not him, if we think that Lycurgus and Minos created laws in Sparta and Crete solely for the purpose of war.
CLEINIAS: What ought we to say then?
CLEINIAS: What should we say then?
ATHENIAN: What truth and what justice require of us, if I am not mistaken, when speaking in behalf of divine excellence;—that the legislator when making his laws had in view not a part only, and this the lowest part of virtue, but all virtue, and that he devised classes of laws answering to the kinds of virtue; not in the way in which modern inventors of laws make the classes, for they only investigate and offer laws whenever a want is felt, and one man has a class of laws about allotments and heiresses, another about assaults; others about ten thousand other such matters. But we maintain that the right way of examining into laws is to proceed as we have now done, and I admired the spirit of your exposition; for you were quite right in beginning with virtue, and saying that this was the aim of the giver of the law, but I thought that you went wrong when you added that all his legislation had a view only to a part, and the least part of virtue, and this called forth my subsequent remarks. Will you allow me then to explain how I should have liked to have heard you expound the matter?
ATHENIAN: What truth and justice demand from us, if I’m not mistaken, when discussing divine excellence, is that the lawmaker, in creating laws, considered not just a portion—specifically, the lowest form of virtue—but all forms of virtue. He should have designed categories of laws that align with the different kinds of virtue. This is different from the way modern lawmakers create categories, as they typically only respond to specific needs, with one person focusing on laws about property and heirs, another on assaults, and still others on countless other issues. We argue that the proper approach to examining laws is to proceed as we have done, and I appreciated the intent behind your explanation. You were correct to start with virtue and to state that it was the goal of the lawgiver; however, I believe you erred when you claimed that his entire legislation addressed only a part—and the smallest part—of virtue, which prompted my subsequent comments. Can I then explain how I would have preferred to hear you present the topic?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: You ought to have said, Stranger—The Cretan laws are with reason famous among the Hellenes; for they fulfil the object of laws, which is to make those who use them happy; and they confer every sort of good. Now goods are of two kinds: there are human and there are divine goods, and the human hang upon the divine; and the state which attains the greater, at the same time acquires the less, or, not having the greater, has neither. Of the lesser goods the first is health, the second beauty, the third strength, including swiftness in running and bodily agility generally, and the fourth is wealth, not the blind god (Pluto), but one who is keen of sight, if only he has wisdom for his companion. For wisdom is chief and leader of the divine class of goods, and next follows temperance; and from the union of these two with courage springs justice, and fourth in the scale of virtue is courage. All these naturally take precedence of the other goods, and this is the order in which the legislator must place them, and after them he will enjoin the rest of his ordinances on the citizens with a view to these, the human looking to the divine, and the divine looking to their leader mind. Some of his ordinances will relate to contracts of marriage which they make one with another, and then to the procreation and education of children, both male and female; the duty of the lawgiver will be to take charge of his citizens, in youth and age, and at every time of life, and to give them punishments and rewards; and in reference to all their intercourse with one another, he ought to consider their pains and pleasures and desires, and the vehemence of all their passions; he should keep a watch over them, and blame and praise them rightly by the mouth of the laws themselves. Also with regard to anger and terror, and the other perturbations of the soul, which arise out of misfortune, and the deliverances from them which prosperity brings, and the experiences which come to men in diseases, or in war, or poverty, or the opposite of these; in all these states he should determine and teach what is the good and evil of the condition of each. In the next place, the legislator has to be careful how the citizens make their money and in what way they spend it, and to have an eye to their mutual contracts and dissolutions of contracts, whether voluntary or involuntary: he should see how they order all this, and consider where justice as well as injustice is found or is wanting in their several dealings with one another; and honour those who obey the law, and impose fixed penalties on those who disobey, until the round of civil life is ended, and the time has come for the consideration of the proper funeral rites and honours of the dead. And the lawgiver reviewing his work, will appoint guardians to preside over these things,—some who walk by intelligence, others by true opinion only, and then mind will bind together all his ordinances and show them to be in harmony with temperance and justice, and not with wealth or ambition. This is the spirit, Stranger, in which I was and am desirous that you should pursue the subject. And I want to know the nature of all these things, and how they are arranged in the laws of Zeus, as they are termed, and in those of the Pythian Apollo, which Minos and Lycurgus gave; and how the order of them is discovered to his eyes, who has experience in laws gained either by study or habit, although they are far from being self-evident to the rest of mankind like ourselves.
ATHENIAN: You should have said, Stranger—The Cretan laws are justly famous among the Greeks; they achieve the purpose of laws, which is to make those who follow them happy, and they provide every type of good. Now, goods are of two types: human and divine goods, and the human ones depend on the divine. A state that achieves the greater also gains the lesser, or if it lacks the greater, it has neither. Among the lesser goods, the first is health, the second is beauty, the third is strength, which includes swiftness in running and overall physical agility, and the fourth is wealth, not the blind god (Pluto), but one who is perceptive, provided wisdom accompanies him. Wisdom is the chief and leader of the divine goods, followed by temperance; from the combination of these two with courage comes justice, and courage ranks fourth in virtue. All of these naturally take precedence over other goods, and this is the order the legislator must follow when organizing them, ensuring that the human aspects aspire to the divine, and the divine aspects look to their guiding mind. Some of his laws will pertain to the marriages individuals enter, and to the procreation and education of both sons and daughters; the lawgiver’s role will be to oversee his citizens from youth to old age, and at every stage of life, administering punishments and rewards. Regarding all their interactions with one another, he should take into account their pains, pleasures, desires, and the intensity of their emotions; he ought to oversee them, appropriately praising and blaming them through the laws. Similarly, concerning anger, fear, and other disturbances of the soul that arise from misfortune, along with the relief that prosperity brings, and the experiences people encounter in sickness, war, poverty, or the opposite of these; in all these situations, he should define and teach what constitutes the good and bad of each state. Next, the legislator needs to be mindful of how citizens earn and spend their money, paying attention to their voluntary or involuntary contracts and dissolutions; he should observe how they manage all this, considering where justice and injustice are present or absent in their interactions. He should honor those who comply with the law and impose definite penalties on those who do not, until the full cycle of civic life ends, and it’s time to focus on the proper funeral rites and honors for the deceased. The lawgiver, evaluating his work, will appoint guardians to oversee these matters—some guided by intelligence, others by mere opinion, and then reason will connect all his regulations and display them as aligned with temperance and justice, not with wealth or ambition. This is the spirit, Stranger, in which I have always wanted you to explore the topic. I also want to understand the nature of all these things and how they are structured in the laws of Zeus, as they are called, and in those of Pythian Apollo, which were established by Minos and Lycurgus; and how the arrangement of laws is revealed to those who have experience in them, gained through study or practice, even though they are far from being obvious to others like us.
CLEINIAS: How shall we proceed, Stranger?
CLEINIAS: What should we do next, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: I think that we must begin again as before, and first consider the habit of courage; and then we will go on and discuss another and then another form of virtue, if you please. In this way we shall have a model of the whole; and with these and similar discourses we will beguile the way. And when we have gone through all the virtues, we will show, by the grace of God, that the institutions of which I was speaking look to virtue.
ATHENIAN: I think we should start over like we did before and first talk about the habit of courage. After that, we can discuss another type of virtue, and then another, if that works for you. This way, we'll create a complete picture, and with these discussions, we'll make the journey more enjoyable. Once we've covered all the virtues, we'll demonstrate, with God's help, that the institutions I mentioned are focused on virtue.
MEGILLUS: Very good; and suppose that you first criticize this praiser of Zeus and the laws of Crete.
MEGILLUS: Sounds good; how about you start by criticizing this admirer of Zeus and the laws of Crete?
ATHENIAN: I will try to criticize you and myself, as well as him, for the argument is a common concern. Tell me,—were not first the syssitia, and secondly the gymnasia, invented by your legislator with a view to war?
ATHENIAN: I’m going to criticize both you and myself, as well as him, since this argument affects all of us. Tell me—weren’t the syssitia first, and then the gymnasia, created by your lawmaker with the purpose of preparing for war?
MEGILLUS: Yes.
Yes.
ATHENIAN: And what comes third, and what fourth? For that, I think, is the sort of enumeration which ought to be made of the remaining parts of virtue, no matter whether you call them parts or what their name is, provided the meaning is clear.
ATHENIAN: So what's third, and what's fourth? I believe that's how we should list the other aspects of virtue, regardless of whether you call them parts or something else, as long as the meaning is clear.
MEGILLUS: Then I, or any other Lacedaemonian, would reply that hunting is third in order.
MEGILLUS: Then I, or any other Spartan, would say that hunting comes in third place.
ATHENIAN: Let us see if we can discover what comes fourth and fifth.
ATHENIAN: Let's see if we can figure out what comes fourth and fifth.
MEGILLUS: I think that I can get as far as the fourth head, which is the frequent endurance of pain, exhibited among us Spartans in certain hand-to-hand fights; also in stealing with the prospect of getting a good beating; there is, too, the so-called Crypteia, or secret service, in which wonderful endurance is shown,—our people wander over the whole country by day and by night, and even in winter have not a shoe to their foot, and are without beds to lie upon, and have to attend upon themselves. Marvellous, too, is the endurance which our citizens show in their naked exercises, contending against the violent summer heat; and there are many similar practices, to speak of which in detail would be endless.
MEGILLUS: I believe I can explain the fourth aspect, which is the constant endurance of pain, demonstrated by us Spartans during certain close combat situations; it's also evident in our willingness to steal, knowing we might face serious consequences. Then there's the Crypteia, or secret service, where we show remarkable endurance—our people roam the entire country day and night, and even in winter, they go without shoes, without beds to rest on, and have to take care of themselves. The endurance our citizens display in their naked exercises is also impressive, as they compete under the intense summer heat; there are many similar activities, and detailing them all would take forever.
ATHENIAN: Excellent, O Lacedaemonian Stranger. But how ought we to define courage? Is it to be regarded only as a combat against fears and pains, or also against desires and pleasures, and against flatteries; which exercise such a tremendous power, that they make the hearts even of respectable citizens to melt like wax?
ATHENIAN: Great, O Lacedaemonian Stranger. But how should we define courage? Is it just about fighting against fears and pain, or does it also involve resisting desires and pleasures, as well as flattery, which has such a powerful influence that it can make the hearts of even respectable citizens soften like wax?
MEGILLUS: I should say the latter.
MEGILLUS: I’d definitely say the latter.
ATHENIAN: In what preceded, as you will remember, our Cnosian friend was speaking of a man or a city being inferior to themselves:—Were you not, Cleinias?
ATHENIAN: In what we discussed earlier, as you may recall, our friend from Cnosos was talking about a man or a city being less impressive than themselves:—Weren't you, Cleinias?
CLEINIAS: I was.
I was.
ATHENIAN: Now, which is in the truest sense inferior, the man who is overcome by pleasure or by pain?
ATHENIAN: So, who is truly inferior—the man who is defeated by pleasure or the one defeated by pain?
CLEINIAS: I should say the man who is overcome by pleasure; for all men deem him to be inferior in a more disgraceful sense, than the other who is overcome by pain.
CLEINIAS: I would say that a person who is overwhelmed by pleasure is seen as more disgraceful by everyone than someone who is overwhelmed by pain.
ATHENIAN: But surely the lawgivers of Crete and Lacedaemon have not legislated for a courage which is lame of one leg, able only to meet attacks which come from the left, but impotent against the insidious flatteries which come from the right?
ATHENIAN: But surely the lawmakers of Crete and Lacedaemon haven’t created laws for a courage that’s one-sided, able to handle attacks coming from the left but powerless against the sneaky flatteries that come from the right?
CLEINIAS: Able to meet both, I should say.
CLEINIAS: I can definitely do both, I’d say.
ATHENIAN: Then let me once more ask, what institutions have you in either of your states which give a taste of pleasures, and do not avoid them any more than they avoid pains; but which set a person in the midst of them, and compel or induce him by the prospect of reward to get the better of them? Where is an ordinance about pleasure similar to that about pain to be found in your laws? Tell me what there is of this nature among you:—What is there which makes your citizen equally brave against pleasure and pain, conquering what they ought to conquer, and superior to the enemies who are most dangerous and nearest home?
ATHENIAN: So let me ask again, what institutions do you have in your states that embrace pleasures just as much as they do pains? What helps people face these feelings, encouraging them with the promise of rewards to overcome them? Where is a rule about pleasure that matches the ones about pain in your laws? Tell me what you have that makes your citizens equally courageous in the face of pleasure and pain, allowing them to conquer what they should, and to be stronger than the most dangerous enemies right at their doorstep?
MEGILLUS: I was able to tell you, Stranger, many laws which were directed against pain; but I do not know that I can point out any great or obvious examples of similar institutions which are concerned with pleasure; there are some lesser provisions, however, which I might mention.
MEGILLUS: I could share with you, Stranger, many laws that focus on preventing pain, but I’m not sure I can highlight any major or clear examples of rules that deal with pleasure. However, there are a few smaller provisions I could mention.
CLEINIAS: Neither can I show anything of that sort which is at all equally prominent in the Cretan laws.
CLEINIAS: I also can’t point to anything like that which stands out in the Cretan laws.
ATHENIAN: No wonder, my dear friends; and if, as is very likely, in our search after the true and good, one of us may have to censure the laws of the others, we must not be offended, but take kindly what another says.
ATHENIAN: It’s no surprise, my friends; and if, as is quite possible, in our pursuit of truth and goodness, one of us needs to critique the laws of the others, we shouldn’t take offense but should accept what someone else has to say with an open mind.
CLEINIAS: You are quite right, Athenian Stranger, and we will do as you say.
CLEINIAS: You're absolutely right, Athenian Stranger, and we'll go along with what you said.
ATHENIAN: At our time of life, Cleinias, there should be no feeling of irritation.
ATHENIAN: At our age, Cleinias, we shouldn’t feel any irritation.
CLEINIAS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: I will not at present determine whether he who censures the Cretan or Lacedaemonian polities is right or wrong. But I believe that I can tell better than either of you what the many say about them. For assuming that you have reasonably good laws, one of the best of them will be the law forbidding any young men to enquire which of them are right or wrong; but with one mouth and one voice they must all agree that the laws are all good, for they came from God; and any one who says the contrary is not to be listened to. But an old man who remarks any defect in your laws may communicate his observation to a ruler or to an equal in years when no young man is present.
ATHENIAN: I'm not going to decide right now whether the criticisms of the Cretan or Lacedaemonian governments are valid. However, I think I can better express what most people think about them. Assuming your laws are pretty good, one of the best rules will be that young men shouldn't question which laws are right or wrong; instead, they must all agree, with one voice, that the laws are good because they come from God. Anyone who argues otherwise shouldn’t be listened to. An older man who notices any flaws in your laws can share his thoughts with a ruler or someone of the same age, but only when no young men are around.
CLEINIAS: Exactly so, Stranger; and like a diviner, although not there at the time, you seem to me quite to have hit the meaning of the legislator, and to say what is most true.
CLEINIAS: That's right, Stranger; and like a fortune teller, even though you weren't there at the time, it seems you really captured the legislator's meaning and said what's most accurate.
ATHENIAN: As there are no young men present, and the legislator has given old men free licence, there will be no impropriety in our discussing these very matters now that we are alone.
ATHENIAN: Since there are no young men here, and the legislator has given older men the freedom to speak, it’s perfectly fine for us to discuss these matters now that we’re alone.
CLEINIAS: True. And therefore you may be as free as you like in your censure of our laws, for there is no discredit in knowing what is wrong; he who receives what is said in a generous and friendly spirit will be all the better for it.
CLEINIAS: That's right. So, feel free to criticize our laws as much as you want because there's no shame in recognizing what's wrong; anyone who takes it in a generous and friendly way will only benefit from it.
ATHENIAN: Very good; however, I am not going to say anything against your laws until to the best of my ability I have examined them, but I am going to raise doubts about them. For you are the only people known to us, whether Greek or barbarian, whom the legislator commanded to eschew all great pleasures and amusements and never to touch them; whereas in the matter of pains or fears which we have just been discussing, he thought that they who from infancy had always avoided pains and fears and sorrows, when they were compelled to face them would run away from those who were hardened in them, and would become their subjects. Now the legislator ought to have considered that this was equally true of pleasure; he should have said to himself, that if our citizens are from their youth upward unacquainted with the greatest pleasures, and unused to endure amid the temptations of pleasure, and are not disciplined to refrain from all things evil, the sweet feeling of pleasure will overcome them just as fear would overcome the former class; and in another, and even a worse manner, they will be the slaves of those who are able to endure amid pleasures, and have had the opportunity of enjoying them, they being often the worst of mankind. One half of their souls will be a slave, the other half free; and they will not be worthy to be called in the true sense men and freemen. Tell me whether you assent to my words?
ATHENIAN: That's fair; however, I won't criticize your laws until I've done my best to examine them, but I will express some doubts. You are the only people we know of, whether Greek or non-Greek, who have been told by your legislator to avoid all major pleasures and distractions entirely. On the other hand, regarding the pains or fears we've just discussed, he believed that those who had always steered clear of them since childhood would run away from those who were used to facing them and would end up being dominated by them. The legislator should have realized that the same applies to pleasure; he should have considered that if our citizens grow up unfamiliar with the greatest pleasures and are not trained to withstand temptations of pleasure, the enticing nature of pleasure will overpower them just like fear would overpower the former group. In an even worse way, they could become the slaves of those who can endure pleasure and have had the chance to enjoy it, who are often the worst among people. One part of their soul will be enslaved, while the other part remains free; they wouldn’t truly deserve to be called men or free people. Do you agree with what I'm saying?
CLEINIAS: On first hearing, what you say appears to be the truth; but to be hasty in coming to a conclusion about such important matters would be very childish and simple.
CLEINIAS: At first glance, what you’re saying seems true; but jumping to conclusions about such important issues would be very naive and immature.
ATHENIAN: Suppose, Cleinias and Megillus, that we consider the virtue which follows next of those which we intended to discuss (for after courage comes temperance), what institutions shall we find relating to temperance, either in Crete or Lacedaemon, which, like your military institutions, differ from those of any ordinary state.
ATHENIAN: So, Cleinias and Megillus, if we discuss the next virtue we planned to cover (since temperance comes after courage), what institutions related to temperance can we find in Crete or Lacedaemon that, like your military systems, differ from those of a typical state?
MEGILLUS: That is not an easy question to answer; still I should say that the common meals and gymnastic exercises have been excellently devised for the promotion both of temperance and courage.
MEGILLUS: That's not an easy question to answer; however, I would say that the shared meals and physical training are really well designed to encourage both self-control and bravery.
ATHENIAN: There seems to be a difficulty, Stranger, with regard to states, in making words and facts coincide so that there can be no dispute about them. As in the human body, the regimen which does good in one way does harm in another; and we can hardly say that any one course of treatment is adapted to a particular constitution. Now the gymnasia and common meals do a great deal of good, and yet they are a source of evil in civil troubles; as is shown in the case of the Milesian, and Boeotian, and Thurian youth, among whom these institutions seem always to have had a tendency to degrade the ancient and natural custom of love below the level, not only of man, but of the beasts. The charge may be fairly brought against your cities above all others, and is true also of most other states which especially cultivate gymnastics. Whether such matters are to be regarded jestingly or seriously, I think that the pleasure is to be deemed natural which arises out of the intercourse between men and women; but that the intercourse of men with men, or of women with women, is contrary to nature, and that the bold attempt was originally due to unbridled lust. The Cretans are always accused of having invented the story of Ganymede and Zeus because they wanted to justify themselves in the enjoyment of unnatural pleasures by the practice of the god whom they believe to have been their lawgiver. Leaving the story, we may observe that any speculation about laws turns almost entirely on pleasure and pain, both in states and in individuals: these are two fountains which nature lets flow, and he who draws from them where and when, and as much as he ought, is happy; and this holds of men and animals—of individuals as well as states; and he who indulges in them ignorantly and at the wrong time, is the reverse of happy.
ATHENIAN: It seems there's a challenge, Stranger, when it comes to states, in aligning words and facts so that there's no argument about them. Just like in the human body, what benefits in one way can harm in another; and it's tough to say that any one treatment suits a specific condition. The gymnasiums and communal meals do a lot of good, yet they also contribute to civil unrest; as seen with the youth of Miletus, Boeotia, and Thurii, where these institutions seem to have degraded the traditional and natural form of love below the standards of both men and beasts. This accusation can fairly be directed at your cities more than any others, and it is also applicable to most other states that focus heavily on gymnastics. Whether we view these matters lightly or seriously, I believe that the enjoyment that comes from interactions between men and women is natural; however, relationships between men and men, or women and women, go against nature and were initially fueled by unchecked desire. The Cretans are often criticized for creating the myth of Ganymede and Zeus as a way to rationalize their pursuit of unnatural pleasures by mimicking the practices of the god they see as their lawmaker. Setting aside the myth, we can observe that discussions about laws primarily revolve around pleasure and pain, both in societies and individuals: these are two sources that nature provides. Those who partake from them appropriately and at the right times are happy; and this applies to both humans and animals—individuals and states alike; whereas those who indulge in them ignorantly and at inappropriate times are the opposite of happy.
MEGILLUS: I admit, Stranger, that your words are well spoken, and I hardly know what to say in answer to you; but still I think that the Spartan lawgiver was quite right in forbidding pleasure. Of the Cretan laws, I shall leave the defence to my Cnosian friend. But the laws of Sparta, in as far as they relate to pleasure, appear to me to be the best in the world; for that which leads mankind in general into the wildest pleasure and licence, and every other folly, the law has clean driven out; and neither in the country nor in towns which are under the control of Sparta, will you find revelries and the many incitements of every kind of pleasure which accompany them; and any one who meets a drunken and disorderly person, will immediately have him most severely punished, and will not let him off on any pretence, not even at the time of a Dionysiac festival; although I have remarked that this may happen at your performances 'on the cart,' as they are called; and among our Tarentine colonists I have seen the whole city drunk at a Dionysiac festival; but nothing of the sort happens among us.
MEGILLUS: I’ll admit, Stranger, that you speak well, and I'm not quite sure how to respond; but I still believe that the Spartan lawmaker was correct in banning pleasure. I'll leave the defense of Cretan laws to my friend from Cnosus. But as for the laws of Sparta regarding pleasure, I think they are the best in the world. They have completely eliminated what leads people into the wildest excesses and all sorts of foolishness. You won't find wild parties or the many temptations that come with them in Sparta, whether in the countryside or the cities under Spartan control. Anyone who encounters a drunk and disorderly person will face strict punishment, and there will be no exceptions made, even during a Dionysian festival. Although I have noticed this can happen during your performances “on the cart,” as they're called, and I’ve seen the entire city of our Tarentine colonists drunk at a Dionysian festival, nothing like that occurs among us.
ATHENIAN: O Lacedaemonian Stranger, these festivities are praiseworthy where there is a spirit of endurance, but are very senseless when they are under no regulations. In order to retaliate, an Athenian has only to point out the licence which exists among your women. To all such accusations, whether they are brought against the Tarentines, or us, or you, there is one answer which exonerates the practice in question from impropriety. When a stranger expresses wonder at the singularity of what he sees, any inhabitant will naturally answer him:—Wonder not, O stranger; this is our custom, and you may very likely have some other custom about the same things. Now we are speaking, my friends, not about men in general, but about the merits and defects of the lawgivers themselves. Let us then discourse a little more at length about intoxication, which is a very important subject, and will seriously task the discrimination of the legislator. I am not speaking of drinking, or not drinking, wine at all, but of intoxication. Are we to follow the custom of the Scythians, and Persians, and Carthaginians, and Celts, and Iberians, and Thracians, who are all warlike nations, or that of your countrymen, for they, as you say, altogether abstain? But the Scythians and Thracians, both men and women, drink unmixed wine, which they pour on their garments, and this they think a happy and glorious institution. The Persians, again, are much given to other practices of luxury which you reject, but they have more moderation in them than the Thracians and Scythians.
ATHENIAN: Hey, Lacedaemonian Stranger, these celebrations are commendable when they show endurance, but they seem pointless when there are no rules in place. To make a comeback, an Athenian just has to point out the freedom your women have. For all these accusations, whether aimed at the Tarentines, us, or you, there’s a single response that clears up any ideas of wrongdoing. When a stranger notices something unusual, any local will naturally respond: “Don’t be surprised, stranger; this is our tradition, and you probably have your own customs about these things.” Now, let’s focus not on men in general, but on the strengths and weaknesses of the lawgivers themselves. Let’s discuss intoxication a little more, as it’s an important topic that will truly challenge the understanding of the legislator. I’m not just talking about drinking or not drinking wine, but about intoxication. Should we follow the customs of the Scythians, Persians, Carthaginians, Celts, Iberians, and Thracians, all of whom are warrior nations, or your fellow countrymen who, as you say, completely abstain? The Scythians and Thracians, both men and women, drink undiluted wine and even pour it on their clothes, believing this to be a wonderful and honorable tradition. The Persians, on the other hand, engage in different luxury practices that you turn away from, but they exhibit more restraint compared to the Thracians and Scythians.
MEGILLUS: O best of men, we have only to take arms into our hands, and we send all these nations flying before us.
MEGILLUS: Oh, the best of us, we just need to take up arms, and we can send all these nations running away from us.
ATHENIAN: Nay, my good friend, do not say that; there have been, as there always will be, flights and pursuits of which no account can be given, and therefore we cannot say that victory or defeat in battle affords more than a doubtful proof of the goodness or badness of institutions. For when the greater states conquer and enslave the lesser, as the Syracusans have done the Locrians, who appear to be the best-governed people in their part of the world, or as the Athenians have done the Ceans (and there are ten thousand other instances of the same sort of thing), all this is not to the point; let us endeavour rather to form a conclusion about each institution in itself and say nothing, at present, of victories and defeats. Let us only say that such and such a custom is honourable, and another not. And first permit me to tell you how good and bad are to be estimated in reference to these very matters.
ATHENIAN: No, my good friend, don’t say that; there have always been, and always will be, attempts and struggles that defy explanation, and so we can’t claim that winning or losing in battle truly indicates the quality of systems. When larger states conquer and oppress smaller ones, like the Syracusans have done to the Locrians, who seem to be the best-governed people in their area, or as the Athenians have done to the Ceans (and there are countless other examples of this), it misses the point; let’s instead try to draw conclusions about each system on its own and set aside talk of victories and defeats for now. Let’s just acknowledge that some customs are honorable while others are not. First, allow me to explain how we should evaluate what is good and bad concerning these matters.
MEGILLUS: How do you mean?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: All those who are ready at a moment's notice to praise or censure any practice which is matter of discussion, seem to me to proceed in a wrong way. Let me give you an illustration of what I mean:—You may suppose a person to be praising wheat as a good kind of food, whereupon another person instantly blames wheat, without ever enquiring into its effect or use, or in what way, or to whom, or with what, or in what state and how, wheat is to be given. And that is just what we are doing in this discussion. At the very mention of the word intoxication, one side is ready with their praises and the other with their censures; which is absurd. For either side adduce their witnesses and approvers, and some of us think that we speak with authority because we have many witnesses; and others because they see those who abstain conquering in battle, and this again is disputed by us. Now I cannot say that I shall be satisfied, if we go on discussing each of the remaining laws in the same way. And about this very point of intoxication I should like to speak in another way, which I hold to be the right one; for if number is to be the criterion, are there not myriads upon myriads of nations ready to dispute the point with you, who are only two cities?
ATHENIAN: Everyone who is quick to either praise or criticize any topic up for discussion seems to me to be going about it the wrong way. Let me illustrate what I mean: Imagine someone praising wheat as a good food, and then another person quickly criticizes it, without ever looking into its effects, its uses, or how, to whom, or with what it should be consumed. That’s exactly what we're doing in this discussion. As soon as the word "intoxication" comes up, one side is ready to praise, while the other is quick to criticize; it's ridiculous. Each side brings forward their supporters and endorsements, with some of us thinking we have authority because we have many witnesses, and others pointing out that those who abstain tend to win in battle—something we dispute as well. I can't say I'll be satisfied if we continue discussing each of the remaining laws in the same manner. When it comes to this very issue of intoxication, I’d like to approach it differently, which I believe is the correct way; because if numbers are to be the deciding factor, aren’t there countless nations ready to debate the issue with you, who are merely two cities?
MEGILLUS: I shall gladly welcome any method of enquiry which is right.
MEGILLUS: I will gladly accept any approach to investigation that is correct.
ATHENIAN: Let me put the matter thus:—Suppose a person to praise the keeping of goats, and the creatures themselves as capital things to have, and then some one who had seen goats feeding without a goatherd in cultivated spots, and doing mischief, were to censure a goat or any other animal who has no keeper, or a bad keeper, would there be any sense or justice in such censure?
ATHENIAN: Let me put it this way: Imagine someone praising the value of keeping goats and the goats themselves as great animals to have. Then, if someone who saw goats grazing without a shepherd in well-kept areas criticized a goat or any other animal that lacks a caretaker, or has a bad one, would that criticism make any sense or be fair?
MEGILLUS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: Does a captain require only to have nautical knowledge in order to be a good captain, whether he is sea-sick or not? What do you say?
ATHENIAN: Does a captain only need to have sailing knowledge to be a good captain, whether he’s seasick or not? What do you think?
MEGILLUS: I say that he is not a good captain if, although he have nautical skill, he is liable to sea-sickness.
MEGILLUS: I say he's not a good captain if, even though he has sailing skills, he gets seasick.
ATHENIAN: And what would you say of the commander of an army? Will he be able to command merely because he has military skill if he be a coward, who, when danger comes, is sick and drunk with fear?
ATHENIAN: What do you think about an army's commander? Can he really lead just because he has military skills if he's a coward, who gets sick and paralyzed with fear when danger strikes?
MEGILLUS: Impossible.
MEGILLUS: No way.
ATHENIAN: And what if besides being a coward he has no skill?
ATHENIAN: What if, on top of being a coward, he also has no skills?
MEGILLUS: He is a miserable fellow, not fit to be a commander of men, but only of old women.
MEGILLUS: He’s a pathetic guy, not cut out to be a leader of men, but only of old women.
ATHENIAN: And what would you say of some one who blames or praises any sort of meeting which is intended by nature to have a ruler, and is well enough when under his presidency? The critic, however, has never seen the society meeting together at an orderly feast under the control of a president, but always without a ruler or with a bad one:—when observers of this class praise or blame such meetings, are we to suppose that what they say is of any value?
ATHENIAN: What do you think about someone who criticizes or praises any gathering that is naturally meant to have a leader, especially when it works well under one? The critic has never actually witnessed the group coming together at a well-organized feast led by a good leader, but only in situations without a leader or with a bad one. So when these critics offer their opinions on such gatherings, do we really believe their thoughts hold any value?
MEGILLUS: Certainly not, if they have never seen or been present at such a meeting when rightly ordered.
MEGILLUS: Definitely not, if they have never witnessed or been at such a meeting when it's properly organized.
ATHENIAN: Reflect; may not banqueters and banquets be said to constitute a kind of meeting?
ATHENIAN: Think about it; can’t we say that feast-goers and feasts make up a kind of gathering?
MEGILLUS: Of course.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: And did any one ever see this sort of convivial meeting rightly ordered? Of course you two will answer that you have never seen them at all, because they are not customary or lawful in your country; but I have come across many of them in many different places, and moreover I have made enquiries about them wherever I went, as I may say, and never did I see or hear of anything of the kind which was carried on altogether rightly; in some few particulars they might be right, but in general they were utterly wrong.
ATHENIAN: Have you ever seen a social gathering that was truly well-organized? Of course, you two will say that you’ve never seen one at all, since they aren’t common or legal in your country. But I’ve encountered many of them in various places, and I’ve asked about them wherever I went. Honestly, I never saw or heard of anything like that being done correctly; there might have been a few things done right, but overall, they were completely wrong.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, Stranger, by this remark? Explain. For we, as you say, from our inexperience in such matters, might very likely not know, even if they came in our way, what was right or wrong in such societies.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that, Stranger? Please explain. Because, as you mentioned, we might not recognize what is right or wrong in such societies due to our lack of experience.
ATHENIAN: Likely enough; then let me try to be your instructor: You would acknowledge, would you not, that in all gatherings of mankind, of whatever sort, there ought to be a leader?
ATHENIAN: Probably; so let me try to teach you: You would agree, wouldn't you, that in all groups of people, no matter what kind, there should be a leader?
CLEINIAS: Certainly I should.
CLEINIAS: Of course I should.
ATHENIAN: And we were saying just now, that when men are at war the leader ought to be a brave man?
ATHENIAN: And we were just saying that when men are at war, the leader should be someone brave?
CLEINIAS: We were.
We were.
ATHENIAN: The brave man is less likely than the coward to be disturbed by fears?
ATHENIAN: Is the brave person less likely than the coward to be affected by fears?
CLEINIAS: That again is true.
CLEINIAS: That's true again.
ATHENIAN: And if there were a possibility of having a general of an army who was absolutely fearless and imperturbable, should we not by all means appoint him?
ATHENIAN: And if there were a chance to have a general of an army who was completely fearless and unshakeable, shouldn't we definitely appoint him?
CLEINIAS: Assuredly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: Now, however, we are speaking not of a general who is to command an army, when foe meets foe in time of war, but of one who is to regulate meetings of another sort, when friend meets friend in time of peace.
ATHENIAN: Right now, we're not talking about a general who leads an army when enemies confront each other in war, but rather someone who manages gatherings of a different kind, when friends come together in times of peace.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And that sort of meeting, if attended with drunkenness, is apt to be unquiet.
ATHENIAN: And those kinds of gatherings, especially if people are drinking, tend to get restless.
CLEINIAS: Certainly; the reverse of quiet.
CLEINIAS: Definitely; the exact opposite of calm.
ATHENIAN: In the first place, then, the revellers as well as the soldiers will require a ruler?
ATHENIAN: So, first of all, the partygoers and the soldiers will need a leader?
CLEINIAS: To be sure; no men more so.
CLEINIAS: For sure; no men more than that.
ATHENIAN: And we ought, if possible, to provide them with a quiet ruler?
ATHENIAN: And we should, if we can, give them a calm leader?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: And he should be a man who understands society; for his duty is to preserve the friendly feelings which exist among the company at the time, and to increase them for the future by his use of the occasion.
ATHENIAN: He should be someone who understands society because it's his job to maintain the good vibes that are happening among the group right now and to enhance them for the future by making the most of the moment.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Must we not appoint a sober man and a wise to be our master of the revels? For if the ruler of drinkers be himself young and drunken, and not over-wise, only by some special good fortune will he be saved from doing some great evil.
ATHENIAN: Shouldn't we choose a sensible and wise person to be our master of the revels? Because if the leader of the drinkers is young, drunk, and not very wise, only by sheer luck will he avoid causing some serious trouble.
CLEINIAS: It will be by a singular good fortune that he is saved.
CLEINIAS: He will be saved by some remarkable stroke of luck.
ATHENIAN: Now suppose such associations to be framed in the best way possible in states, and that some one blames the very fact of their existence—he may very likely be right. But if he blames a practice which he only sees very much mismanaged, he shows in the first place that he is not aware of the mismanagement, and also not aware that everything done in this way will turn out to be wrong, because done without the superintendence of a sober ruler. Do you not see that a drunken pilot or a drunken ruler of any sort will ruin ship, chariot, army—anything, in short, of which he has the direction?
ATHENIAN: Now let's say that these associations are created in the best possible way in societies, and someone criticizes their very existence—he might actually have a point. But if he criticizes a practice that he only sees poorly managed, he first shows that he doesn't recognize the mismanagement and also doesn't realize that anything done like this will end up going wrong because it's done without the guidance of a sensible leader. Don’t you see that a drunk pilot or a drunk leader of any kind will ruin a ship, a chariot, an army—basically anything they are in charge of?
CLEINIAS: The last remark is very true, Stranger; and I see quite clearly the advantage of an army having a good leader—he will give victory in war to his followers, which is a very great advantage; and so of other things. But I do not see any similar advantage which either individuals or states gain from the good management of a feast; and I want you to tell me what great good will be effected, supposing that this drinking ordinance is duly established.
CLEINIAS: That last point is spot on, Stranger; I can clearly see how beneficial it is for an army to have a good leader—he’ll lead his people to victory in battle, which is a huge plus, and there are other benefits as well. But I don’t see any comparable benefit that individuals or states get from the proper organization of a feast; I’d like you to explain what significant good will come from establishing this drinking rule properly.
ATHENIAN: If you mean to ask what great good accrues to the state from the right training of a single youth, or of a single chorus—when the question is put in that form, we cannot deny that the good is not very great in any particular instance. But if you ask what is the good of education in general, the answer is easy—that education makes good men, and that good men act nobly, and conquer their enemies in battle, because they are good. Education certainly gives victory, although victory sometimes produces forgetfulness of education; for many have grown insolent from victory in war, and this insolence has engendered in them innumerable evils; and many a victory has been and will be suicidal to the victors; but education is never suicidal.
ATHENIAN: If you're asking what benefit a single young person or a single chorus brings to the state through proper training, then we have to admit that the benefit isn’t very significant in any specific case. However, if you’re asking about the overall value of education, the answer is straightforward—education creates good people, and good people act honorably and defeat their enemies in battle because they are good. Education certainly leads to victory, although victory can sometimes make people forget about education; many have become arrogant after winning wars, and that arrogance has caused them countless problems. Many victories have led to the downfall of the victors, but education never leads to downfall.
CLEINIAS: You seem to imply, my friend, that convivial meetings, when rightly ordered, are an important element of education.
CLEINIAS: It sounds like you're saying, my friend, that well-organized gatherings are a key part of education.
ATHENIAN: Certainly I do.
For sure.
CLEINIAS: And can you show that what you have been saying is true?
CLEINIAS: Can you prove that what you've been saying is true?
ATHENIAN: To be absolutely sure of the truth of matters concerning which there are many opinions, is an attribute of the Gods not given to man, Stranger; but I shall be very happy to tell you what I think, especially as we are now proposing to enter on a discussion concerning laws and constitutions.
ATHENIAN: To be completely certain about the truth of matters that have many opinions is a quality of the Gods, not something humans possess, Stranger; but I'm more than happy to share my thoughts, especially since we're about to start a discussion about laws and constitutions.
CLEINIAS: Your opinion, Stranger, about the questions which are now being raised, is precisely what we want to hear.
CLEINIAS: We really want to hear your thoughts on the questions that are being raised, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Very good; I will try to find a way of explaining my meaning, and you shall try to have the gift of understanding me. But first let me make an apology. The Athenian citizen is reputed among all the Hellenes to be a great talker, whereas Sparta is renowned for brevity, and the Cretans have more wit than words. Now I am afraid of appearing to elicit a very long discourse out of very small materials. For drinking indeed may appear to be a slight matter, and yet is one which cannot be rightly ordered according to nature, without correct principles of music; these are
ATHENIAN: Alright; I’ll try to explain what I mean, and you should try to understand me. But first, I need to apologize. The Athenian citizen is known among all the Greeks for being a big talker, while Sparta is famous for being brief, and the Cretans are wittier than they are wordy. I'm worried I might end up giving a long speech about something that seems small. Drinking might seem like a minor issue, but you can't properly approach it according to nature without the right principles of music; these are
necessary to any clear or satisfactory treatment of the subject, and music again runs up into education generally, and there is much to be said about all this. What would you say then to leaving these matters for the present, and passing on to some other question of law?
necessary for any clear or satisfactory treatment of the subject, and music again connects to education in general, and there’s a lot to discuss about all this. So, what do you think about putting these issues aside for now and moving on to another legal question?
MEGILLUS: O Athenian Stranger, let me tell you what perhaps you do not know, that our family is the proxenus of your state. I imagine that from their earliest youth all boys, when they are told that they are the proxeni of a particular state, feel kindly towards their second country; and this has certainly been my own feeling. I can well remember from the days of my boyhood, how, when any Lacedaemonians praised or blamed the Athenians, they used to say to me,—'See, Megillus, how ill or how well,' as the case might be, 'has your state treated us'; and having always had to fight your battles against detractors when I heard you assailed, I became warmly attached to you. And I always like to hear the Athenian tongue spoken; the common saying is quite true, that a good Athenian is more than ordinarily good, for he is the only man who is freely and genuinely good by the divine inspiration of his own nature, and is not manufactured. Therefore be assured that I shall like to hear you say whatever you have to say.
MEGILLUS: O Athenian Stranger, I want to tell you something you might not know—our family is the proxenus for your city. I believe that from a young age, all boys feel a sense of affection for their second homeland when they learn they are the proxeni of a certain state; that's definitely how I've felt. I can clearly remember from my childhood how, whenever the Spartans praised or criticized the Athenians, they would say to me, 'Look, Megillus, how poorly or how well your state has treated us,' depending on the situation. Having always had to defend your honor against critics whenever I heard you attacked, I grew very fond of you. I also enjoy hearing the Athenian language spoken; the saying is true that a good Athenian is exceptionally good because he is genuinely good by the divine inspiration of his own nature and not made. So rest assured, I’ll be eager to hear whatever you have to say.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger; and when you have heard me speak, say boldly what is in your thoughts. Let me remind you of a tie which unites you to Crete. You must have heard here the story of the prophet Epimenides, who was of my family, and came to Athens ten years before the Persian war, in accordance with the response of the Oracle, and offered certain sacrifices which the God commanded. The Athenians were at that time in dread of the Persian invasion; and he said that for ten years they would not come, and that when they came, they would go away again without accomplishing any of their objects, and would suffer more evil than they inflicted. At that time my forefathers formed ties of hospitality with you; thus ancient is the friendship which I and my parents have had for you.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger; and once you’ve heard me out, feel free to share what’s on your mind. Let me remind you of a connection that links you to Crete. You must have heard the tale of the prophet Epimenides, who was part of my family and came to Athens ten years before the Persian war, following the Oracle’s advice, and made certain sacrifices that the God commanded. At that time, the Athenians were terrified of the Persian invasion; he declared that they wouldn’t come for ten years, and when they did, they would leave without achieving anything and suffer more harm than they caused. It was during that time that my ancestors established ties of hospitality with you; hence, the friendship that my parents and I have shared with you is quite old.
ATHENIAN: You seem to be quite ready to listen; and I am also ready to perform as much as I can of an almost impossible task, which I will nevertheless attempt. At the outset of the discussion, let me define the nature and power of education; for this is the way by which our argument must travel onwards to the God Dionysus.
ATHENIAN: You look like you’re eager to listen, and I’m also prepared to do as much as I can with this nearly impossible task, which I’ll still try. To start the discussion, let me explain what education really is and what it can do; this is the path our argument must take to reach the God Dionysus.
CLEINIAS: Let us proceed, if you please.
CLEINIAS: Let's continue, if that's alright.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, if I tell you what are my notions of education, will you consider whether they satisfy you?
ATHENIAN: Alright, if I share my ideas about education, will you think about whether they work for you?
CLEINIAS: Let us hear.
CLEINIAS: Let's hear it.
ATHENIAN: According to my view, any one who would be good at anything must practise that thing from his youth upwards, both in sport and earnest, in its several branches: for example, he who is to be a good builder, should play at building children's houses; he who is to be a good husbandman, at tilling the ground; and those who have the care of their education should provide them when young with mimic tools. They should learn beforehand the knowledge which they will afterwards require for their art. For example, the future carpenter should learn to measure or apply the line in play; and the future warrior should learn riding, or some other exercise, for amusement, and the teacher should endeavour to direct the children's inclinations and pleasures, by the help of amusements, to their final aim in life. The most important part of education is right training in the nursery. The soul of the child in his play should be guided to the love of that sort of excellence in which when he grows up to manhood he will have to be perfected. Do you agree with me thus far?
ATHENIAN: I believe that anyone who wants to be good at something should practice it from a young age, both for fun and seriously, in all its aspects. For instance, someone wanting to be a skilled builder should play at constructing children's houses; someone aiming to be a good farmer should practice tending to the soil; and those responsible for educating them should provide kids with pretend tools when they’re young. They need to learn the skills they'll later need for their craft. For example, a future carpenter should have fun measuring and using a ruler, and an aspiring soldier should enjoy riding or some other activity for fun. The teacher should try to guide the children's interests and enjoyment towards their ultimate goals in life through these activities. The most crucial part of education is proper training in early childhood. The child's spirit during play should be nurtured to develop a love for the kind of excellence they'll need to achieve as adults. Do you agree with me so far?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Then let us not leave the meaning of education ambiguous or ill-defined. At present, when we speak in terms of praise or blame about the bringing-up of each person, we call one man educated and another uneducated, although the uneducated man may be sometimes very well educated for the calling of a retail trader, or of a captain of a ship, and the like. For we are not speaking of education in this narrower sense, but of that other education in virtue from youth upwards, which makes a man eagerly pursue the ideal perfection of citizenship, and teaches him how rightly to rule and how to obey. This is the only education which, upon our view, deserves the name; that other sort of training, which aims at the acquisition of wealth or bodily strength, or mere cleverness apart from intelligence and justice, is mean and illiberal, and is not worthy to be called education at all. But let us not quarrel with one another about a word, provided that the proposition which has just been granted hold good: to wit, that those who are rightly educated generally become good men. Neither must we cast a slight upon education, which is the first and fairest thing that the best of men can ever have, and which, though liable to take a wrong direction, is capable of reformation. And this work of reformation is the great business of every man while he lives.
ATHENIAN: Let's not leave the meaning of education unclear or poorly defined. Right now, when we talk about praising or criticizing someone's upbringing, we label one person as educated and another as uneducated, even though the uneducated person might actually be very well prepared for a job as a retailer, a ship captain, or similar roles. We're not referring to education in that limited sense, but to a broader education in virtue from a young age, which inspires a person to strive for the ideal of good citizenship and teaches them how to govern and obey correctly. This is the only education that truly deserves the name; that other type of training, which focuses on gaining wealth, physical strength, or mere cleverness without intelligence and justice, is shallow and unrefined, and shouldn't be considered education at all. But let's not argue over terminology, as long as we agree on this point: that those who are properly educated usually become good people. We should also recognize the importance of education, which is the most essential and admirable quality one can possess, and while it can sometimes go astray, it can also be corrected. This task of correction is the crucial responsibility of every person throughout their life.
CLEINIAS: Very true; and we entirely agree with you.
CLEINIAS: That's absolutely right; we completely agree with you.
ATHENIAN: And we agreed before that they are good men who are able to rule themselves, and bad men who are not.
ATHENIAN: So we agreed earlier that good men are those who can govern themselves, and bad men are those who cannot.
CLEINIAS: You are quite right.
CLEINIAS: You’re absolutely right.
ATHENIAN: Let me now proceed, if I can, to clear up the subject a little further by an illustration which I will offer you.
ATHENIAN: Now, let me try to clarify the topic a bit more by giving you an example.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Do we not consider each of ourselves to be one?
ATHENIAN: Don't we all see ourselves as one?
CLEINIAS: We do.
We sure do.
ATHENIAN: And each one of us has in his bosom two counsellors, both foolish and also antagonistic; of which we call the one pleasure, and the other pain.
ATHENIAN: Each of us has two advisors in our hearts, both foolish and opposing; we call one pleasure and the other pain.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Also there are opinions about the future, which have the general name of expectations; and the specific name of fear, when the expectation is of pain; and of hope, when of pleasure; and further, there is reflection about the good or evil of them, and this, when embodied in a decree by the State, is called Law.
ATHENIAN: There are also beliefs about the future, commonly referred to as expectations; specifically, when we anticipate pain, it's called fear, and when we expect pleasure, it's called hope. Additionally, there is contemplation about the good or bad of these feelings, and when this is established in a decree by the State, it is known as Law.
CLEINIAS: I am hardly able to follow you; proceed, however, as if I were.
CLEINIAS: I'm having a hard time keeping up with you, but go ahead as if I do.
MEGILLUS: I am in the like case.
MEGILLUS: I'm in the same situation.
ATHENIAN: Let us look at the matter thus: May we not conceive each of us living beings to be a puppet of the Gods, either their plaything only, or created with a purpose—which of the two we cannot certainly know? But we do know, that these affections in us are like cords and strings, which pull us different and opposite ways, and to opposite actions; and herein lies the difference between virtue and vice. According to the argument there is one among these cords which every man ought to grasp and never let go, but to pull with it against all the rest; and this is the sacred and golden cord of reason, called by us the common law of the State; there are others which are hard and of iron, but this one is soft because golden; and there are several other kinds. Now we ought always to cooperate with the lead of the best, which is law. For inasmuch as reason is beautiful and gentle, and not violent, her rule must needs have ministers in order to help the golden principle in vanquishing the other principles. And thus the moral of the tale about our being puppets will not have been lost, and the meaning of the expression 'superior or inferior to a man's self' will become clearer; and the individual, attaining to right reason in this matter of pulling the strings of the puppet, should live according to its rule; while the city, receiving the same from some god or from one who has knowledge of these things, should embody it in a law, to be her guide in her dealings with herself and with other states. In this way virtue and vice will be more clearly distinguished by us. And when they have become clearer, education and other institutions will in like manner become clearer; and in particular that question of convivial entertainment, which may seem, perhaps, to have been a very trifling matter, and to have taken a great many more words than were necessary.
ATHENIAN: Let's look at it this way: Can we not think of each of us living beings as puppets of the Gods, either just their toys or made for a purpose—which we can't really know for sure? But we do know that our emotions are like cords and strings that pull us in different and opposing directions, leading to different actions; and this is where the distinction between virtue and vice lies. According to the argument, there is one of these cords that every person should hold onto and never let go of, pulling against all the others, and this is the sacred and golden cord of reason, which we call the common law of the State. There are others that are hard and made of iron, but this one is soft and golden. Now we should always work together with the best, which is law. Since reason is beautiful and gentle, not harsh, its guidance needs assistants to help the golden principle overcome the others. Thus, the moral of our being puppets won’t be lost, and the meaning of the phrase 'superior or inferior to a man’s self' will be clearer; the individual, by achieving true reason in the matter of controlling the puppet's strings, should live according to its guidance; while the city, receiving the same wisdom from some god or from someone knowledgeable about these matters, should incorporate it into a law to guide its actions with itself and other states. This way, we will better distinguish between virtue and vice. And as things become clearer, education and other institutions will also become clearer; particularly that issue of social gatherings, which may seem trivial and may have taken more words than necessary.
CLEINIAS: Perhaps, however, the theme may turn out not to be unworthy of the length of discourse.
CLEINIAS: Maybe the topic will actually be worth the length of the discussion.
ATHENIAN: Very good; let us proceed with any enquiry which really bears on our present object.
ATHENIAN: Great; let’s go ahead with any questions that are really relevant to our current goal.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Suppose that we give this puppet of ours drink,—what will be the effect on him?
ATHENIAN: If we give this puppet of ours a drink, what will happen to him?
CLEINIAS: Having what in view do you ask that question?
CLEINIAS: What are you trying to understand by asking that question?
ATHENIAN: Nothing as yet; but I ask generally, when the puppet is brought to the drink, what sort of result is likely to follow. I will endeavour to explain my meaning more clearly: what I am now asking is this—Does the drinking of wine heighten and increase pleasures and pains, and passions and loves?
ATHENIAN: Nothing yet; but I'm asking generally, when the puppet is brought to drink, what kind of outcome can we expect? I'll try to explain my point more clearly: what I'm asking is this—Does drinking wine intensify pleasures and pains, as well as passions and loves?
CLEINIAS: Very greatly.
CLEINIAS: A lot.
ATHENIAN: And are perception and memory, and opinion and prudence, heightened and increased? Do not these qualities entirely desert a man if he becomes saturated with drink?
ATHENIAN: So, do perception, memory, opinion, and judgment get better and stronger? Don’t these qualities completely leave a person if they get drunk?
CLEINIAS: Yes, they entirely desert him.
CLEINIAS: Yes, they completely abandon him.
ATHENIAN: Does he not return to the state of soul in which he was when a young child?
ATHENIAN: Doesn't he return to the state of mind he had when he was a young child?
CLEINIAS: He does.
CLEINIAS: He does.
ATHENIAN: Then at that time he will have the least control over himself?
ATHENIAN: So, at that point, he'll have the least control over himself?
CLEINIAS: The least.
CLEINIAS: The minimum.
ATHENIAN: And will he not be in a most wretched plight?
ATHENIAN: And won't he be in a terrible situation?
CLEINIAS: Most wretched.
CLEINIAS: So miserable.
ATHENIAN: Then not only an old man but also a drunkard becomes a second time a child?
ATHENIAN: So, not only does an old man become a child again, but a drunkard too?
CLEINIAS: Well said, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: Well said, stranger.
ATHENIAN: Is there any argument which will prove to us that we ought to encourage the taste for drinking instead of doing all we can to avoid it?
ATHENIAN: Is there any reasoning that can show us why we should promote a love for drinking instead of trying our best to steer clear of it?
CLEINIAS: I suppose that there is; you at any rate, were just now saying that you were ready to maintain such a doctrine.
CLEINIAS: I guess there is; you just said that you were prepared to support that idea.
ATHENIAN: True, I was; and I am ready still, seeing that you have both declared that you are anxious to hear me.
ATHENIAN: That's true, and I'm still ready since you both said you're eager to hear me.
CLEINIAS: To be sure we are, if only for the strangeness of the paradox, which asserts that a man ought of his own accord to plunge into utter degradation.
CLEINIAS: We definitely are, if only because of the oddity of the paradox, which claims that a man should willingly throw himself into complete degradation.
ATHENIAN: Are you speaking of the soul?
ATHENIAN: Are you talking about the soul?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: And what would you say about the body, my friend? Are you not surprised at any one of his own accord bringing upon himself deformity, leanness, ugliness, decrepitude?
ATHENIAN: So, what do you think about the body, my friend? Aren't you surprised that anyone would willingly choose to bring upon themselves deformity, skinniness, unattractiveness, or frailty?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: Yet when a man goes of his own accord to a doctor's shop, and takes medicine, is he not aware that soon, and for many days afterwards, he will be in a state of body which he would die rather than accept as the permanent condition of his life? Are not those who train in gymnasia, at first beginning reduced to a state of weakness?
ATHENIAN: But when a man chooses to go to a doctor's office and takes medicine, isn’t he aware that for a while, and for many days afterward, he will be in a physical condition that he would rather die than make his permanent state? Aren’t those who train in gyms initially brought to a state of weakness?
CLEINIAS: Yes, all that is well known.
CLEINIAS: Yes, we all know that.
ATHENIAN: Also that they go of their own accord for the sake of the subsequent benefit?
ATHENIAN: So they choose to go on their own for their later benefit?
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: And we may conceive this to be true in the same way of other practices?
ATHENIAN: Can we also think this is true for other practices?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And the same view may be taken of the pastime of drinking wine, if we are right in supposing that the same good effect follows?
ATHENIAN: We can think the same way about the activity of drinking wine, if we are correct in assuming that it brings about the same positive outcome?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: If such convivialities should turn out to have any advantage equal in importance to that of gymnastic, they are in their very nature to be preferred to mere bodily exercise, inasmuch as they have no accompaniment of pain.
ATHENIAN: If these social gatherings end up being as beneficial as physical training, they are naturally to be favored over just working out since they don't come with any pain.
CLEINIAS: True; but I hardly think that we shall be able to discover any such benefits to be derived from them.
CLEINIAS: That's true; but I don't really think we'll be able to find any benefits from them.
ATHENIAN: That is just what we must endeavour to show. And let me ask you a question:—Do we not distinguish two kinds of fear, which are very different?
ATHENIAN: That's exactly what we need to demonstrate. And let me ask you a question: don’t we recognize two types of fear that are quite different from each other?
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: There is the fear of expected evil.
ATHENIAN: There's the dread of anticipated harm.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: And there is the fear of an evil reputation; we are afraid of being thought evil, because we do or say some dishonourable thing, which fear we and all men term shame.
ATHENIAN: And then there's the fear of having a bad reputation; we're scared of being seen as bad because we do or say something dishonorable, and that fear, we all call shame.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: These are the two fears, as I called them; one of which is the opposite of pain and other fears, and the opposite also of the greatest and most numerous sort of pleasures.
ATHENIAN: These are the two fears, as I've referred to them; one is the opposite of pain and other fears, and it's also the opposite of the greatest and most common pleasures.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
Totally agree.
ATHENIAN: And does not the legislator and every one who is good for anything, hold this fear in the greatest honour? This is what he terms reverence, and the confidence which is the reverse of this he terms insolence; and the latter he always deems to be a very great evil both to individuals and to states.
ATHENIAN: Doesn't the legislator and anyone useful hold this fear in the highest regard? This is what he calls reverence, and the confidence that's the opposite of it he calls insolence; and he always sees the latter as a significant evil for both individuals and states.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Does not this kind of fear preserve us in many important ways? What is there which so surely gives victory and safety in war? For there are two things which give victory—confidence before enemies, and fear of disgrace before friends.
ATHENIAN: Doesn’t this kind of fear protect us in many important ways? What else guarantees victory and safety in war? There are two things that lead to victory—confidence when facing enemies and the fear of disgrace in front of friends.
CLEINIAS: There are.
CLEINIAS: There are.
ATHENIAN: Then each of us should be fearless and also fearful; and why we should be either has now been determined.
ATHENIAN: So, each of us should be both brave and scared; and we've now figured out why we should be either.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And when we want to make any one fearless, we and the law bring him face to face with many fears.
ATHENIAN: And when we want to make someone fearless, we and the law confront them with many fears.
CLEINIAS: Clearly.
CLEINIAS: Obviously.
ATHENIAN: And when we want to make him rightly fearful, must we not introduce him to shameless pleasures, and train him to take up arms against them, and to overcome them? Or does this principle apply to courage only, and must he who would be perfect in valour fight against and overcome his own natural character,—since if he be unpractised and inexperienced in such conflicts, he will not be half the man which he might have been,—and are we to suppose, that with temperance it is otherwise, and that he who has never fought with the shameless and unrighteous temptations of his pleasures and lusts, and conquered them, in earnest and in play, by word, deed, and act, will still be perfectly temperate?
ATHENIAN: So, when we want to truly instill fear in him, shouldn't we expose him to shameless pleasures and teach him to fight against them and overcome them? Or is this idea only relevant to courage, meaning that someone who wants to be perfect in bravery needs to tackle and conquer his own natural tendencies—because if he’s inexperienced and hasn't practiced in such battles, he won't be anywhere near the person he could be? Should we think that temperance is different, and that someone who has never battled the shameless and wrongful temptations of pleasures and desires, and hasn't conquered them—in serious situations and in fun, through words, actions, and behavior—can still be completely temperate?
CLEINIAS: A most unlikely supposition.
CLEINIAS: An unexpected assumption.
ATHENIAN: Suppose that some God had given a fear-potion to men, and that the more a man drank of this the more he regarded himself at every draught as a child of misfortune, and that he feared everything happening or about to happen to him; and that at last the most courageous of men utterly lost his presence of mind for a time, and only came to himself again when he had slept off the influence of the draught.
ATHENIAN: Imagine that a God had given people a fear-inducing potion, and the more a person drank, the more they saw themselves as a victim of bad luck with each sip, fearing everything that was happening or about to happen to them; and eventually, even the bravest of men completely lost their composure for a while, only regaining their senses once they slept off the effects of the drink.
CLEINIAS: But has such a draught, Stranger, ever really been known among men?
CLEINIAS: But has such a drink, Stranger, ever actually existed among people?
ATHENIAN: No; but, if there had been, might not such a draught have been of use to the legislator as a test of courage? Might we not go and say to him, 'O legislator, whether you are legislating for the Cretan, or for any other state, would you not like to have a touchstone of the courage and cowardice of your citizens?'
ATHENIAN: No; but if there had been, could such a test have been helpful to the lawmaker as a measure of courage? Couldn't we go and say to him, 'Hey lawmaker, whether you're making laws for the Cretan or for any other state, wouldn't you want a way to gauge the courage and cowardice of your citizens?'
CLEINIAS: 'I should,' will be the answer of every one.
CLEINIAS: "I should," will be everyone's response.
ATHENIAN: 'And you would rather have a touchstone in which there is no risk and no great danger than the reverse?'
ATHENIAN: 'So you'd prefer a safe touchstone with no risks or serious dangers instead of the opposite?'
CLEINIAS: In that proposition every one may safely agree.
CLEINIAS: Everyone can safely agree with that statement.
ATHENIAN: 'And in order to make use of the draught, you would lead them amid these imaginary terrors, and prove them, when the affection of fear was working upon them, and compel them to be fearless, exhorting and admonishing them; and also honouring them, but dishonouring any one who will not be persuaded by you to be in all respects such as you command him; and if he underwent the trial well and manfully, you would let him go unscathed; but if ill, you would inflict a punishment upon him? Or would you abstain from using the potion altogether, although you have no reason for abstaining?'
ATHENIAN: 'To make use of the potion, you would lead them through these imagined fears and test them while they were feeling afraid, pushing them to be brave, encouraging and advising them; you would also respect those who followed your guidance but shame anyone who refused to be exactly as you instructed. If someone handled the test well and showed courage, you would let them go unharmed; but if they failed, you would punish them? Or would you choose not to use the potion at all, even though you have no reason to abstain?'
CLEINIAS: He would be certain, Stranger, to use the potion.
CLEINIAS: He would definitely use the potion, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: This would be a mode of testing and training which would be wonderfully easy in comparison with those now in use, and might be applied to a single person, or to a few, or indeed to any number; and he would do well who provided himself with the potion only, rather than with any number of other things, whether he preferred to be by himself in solitude, and there contend with his fears, because he was ashamed to be seen by the eye of man until he was perfect; or trusting to the force of his own nature and habits, and believing that he had been already disciplined sufficiently, he did not hesitate to train himself in company with any number of others, and display his power in conquering the irresistible change effected by the draught—his virtue being such, that he never in any instance fell into any great unseemliness, but was always himself, and left off before he arrived at the last cup, fearing that he, like all other men, might be overcome by the potion.
ATHENIAN: This would be a way of testing and training that would be incredibly easy compared to what we use now, and it could be applied to a single person, a few people, or even a large group. It would be wise for someone to prepare themselves with just the potion, rather than a bunch of other things, whether they preferred to be alone in solitude to face their fears out of shame of being seen by others until they felt ready; or relying on their own nature and habits, believing they were already trained enough, they wouldn’t hesitate to practice alongside others, showing their ability to overcome the overwhelming change brought on by the drink—having the kind of character that never let them fall into any major impropriety, always remaining true to themselves, and stopping before reaching the last cup, worried that they might, like everyone else, be taken over by the potion.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger, in that last case, too, he might equally show his self-control.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger, in that last case, too, he might also demonstrate his self-control.
ATHENIAN: Let us return to the lawgiver, and say to him:—'Well, lawgiver, there is certainly no such fear-potion which man has either received from the Gods or himself discovered; for witchcraft has no place at our board. But is there any potion which might serve as a test of overboldness and excessive and indiscreet boasting?
ATHENIAN: Let's go back to the lawmaker and say to him, 'Well, lawmaker, there's definitely no fear-inducing potion that anyone has gotten from the Gods or figured out themselves; witchcraft isn’t part of our discussions. But is there a potion that could test for overconfidence and reckless boasting?'
CLEINIAS: I suppose that he will say, Yes,—meaning that wine is such a potion.
CLEINIAS: I guess he'll say yes—implying that wine is that kind of drink.
ATHENIAN: Is not the effect of this quite the opposite of the effect of the other? When a man drinks wine he begins to be better pleased with himself, and the more he drinks the more he is filled full of brave hopes, and conceit of his power, and at last the string of his tongue is loosened, and fancying himself wise, he is brimming over with lawlessness, and has no more fear or respect, and is ready to do or say anything.
ATHENIAN: Isn't the result of this completely the opposite of the other? When someone drinks wine, they start to feel more confident and pleased with themselves, and the more they drink, the more filled with bold hopes and self-importance they become. Eventually, their inhibitions fade away, and thinking they are wise, they overflow with reckless behavior, losing all fear or respect, and are ready to say or do anything.
CLEINIAS: I think that every one will admit the truth of your description.
CLEINIAS: I believe everyone will agree with your description.
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: Now, let us remember, as we were saying, that there are two things which should be cultivated in the soul: first, the greatest courage; secondly, the greatest fear—
ATHENIAN: Now, let's remember, as we were saying, that there are two things that should be nurtured in the soul: first, the highest courage; and second, the deepest fear—
CLEINIAS: Which you said to be characteristic of reverence, if I am not mistaken.
CLEINIAS: That's what you mentioned is typical of respect, if I'm not wrong.
ATHENIAN: Thank you for reminding me. But now, as the habit of courage and fearlessness is to be trained amid fears, let us consider whether the opposite quality is not also to be trained among opposites.
ATHENIAN: Thanks for the reminder. But now, just as we develop courage and fearlessness by facing our fears, let's think about whether the opposite quality should also be developed through its opposites.
CLEINIAS: That is probably the case.
CLEINIAS: That’s likely true.
ATHENIAN: There are times and seasons at which we are by nature more than commonly valiant and bold; now we ought to train ourselves on these occasions to be as free from impudence and shamelessness as possible, and to be afraid to say or suffer or do anything that is base.
ATHENIAN: There are moments and times when we naturally feel braver and more daring; during these times, we should focus on being as free from arrogance and shamelessness as we can, and be cautious about saying, enduring, or doing anything that is dishonorable.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Are not the moments in which we are apt to be bold and shameless such as these?—when we are under the influence of anger, love, pride, ignorance, avarice, cowardice? or when wealth, beauty, strength, and all the intoxicating workings of pleasure madden us? What is better adapted than the festive use of wine, in the first place to test, and in the second place to train the character of a man, if care be taken in the use of it? What is there cheaper, or more innocent? For do but consider which is the greater risk:—Would you rather test a man of a morose and savage nature, which is the source of ten thousand acts of injustice, by making bargains with him at a risk to yourself, or by having him as a companion at the festival of Dionysus? Or would you, if you wanted to apply a touchstone to a man who is prone to love, entrust your wife, or your sons, or daughters to him, perilling your dearest interests in order to have a view of the condition of his soul? I might mention numberless cases, in which the advantage would be manifest of getting to know a character in sport, and without paying dearly for experience. And I do not believe that either a Cretan, or any other man, will doubt that such a test is a fair test, and safer, cheaper, and speedier than any other.
ATHENIAN: Aren't the times we tend to be bold and shameless moments like these?—when we're influenced by anger, love, pride, ignorance, greed, or fear? Or when wealth, beauty, strength, and all the pleasures of life drive us wild? What better way to test and train a person's character than through the festive use of wine, as long as we handle it responsibly? What could be cheaper or more innocent? Just think about which is the greater risk: would you prefer testing someone with a gloomy and cruel nature, which leads to countless acts of injustice, by making deals with him at your own expense, or having him as a companion at the festival of Dionysus? Or would you, if you wanted to assess someone who's prone to love, trust your wife, or your sons, or daughters to him, risking your most precious interests just to see what he's really like? I could mention countless situations where it would clearly benefit you to get to know someone's character in a lighthearted way without paying a heavy price for the lesson. I truly believe that neither a Cretan nor anyone else would doubt that such a test is fair, safer, cheaper, and faster than any other.
CLEINIAS: That is certainly true.
CLEINIAS: That's definitely true.
ATHENIAN: And this knowledge of the natures and habits of men's souls will be of the greatest use in that art which has the management of them; and that art, if I am not mistaken, is politics.
ATHENIAN: Understanding the nature and behavior of people's souls will be incredibly valuable in the practice that deals with them; and that practice, if I'm not wrong, is politics.
CLEINIAS: Exactly so.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
BOOK II.
ATHENIAN: And now we have to consider whether the insight into human nature is the only benefit derived from well-ordered potations, or whether there are not other advantages great and much to be desired. The argument seems to imply that there are. But how and in what way these are to be attained, will have to be considered attentively, or we may be entangled in error.
ATHENIAN: Now we need to think about whether the understanding of human nature is the only benefit we get from well-organized drinking, or if there are other significant advantages to be gained. The discussion suggests there are. However, we need to carefully consider how we can achieve these benefits, or we might find ourselves caught in mistake.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Let me once more recall our doctrine of right education; which, if I am not mistaken, depends on the due regulation of convivial intercourse.
ATHENIAN: Let me remind you again of our teachings on proper education; which, if I'm not mistaken, relies on the appropriate management of social interactions.
CLEINIAS: You talk rather grandly.
CLEINIAS: You talk pretty grand.
ATHENIAN: Pleasure and pain I maintain to be the first perceptions of children, and I say that they are the forms under which virtue and vice are originally present to them. As to wisdom and true and fixed opinions, happy is the man who acquires them, even when declining in years; and we may say that he who possesses them, and the blessings which are contained in them, is a perfect man. Now I mean by education that training which is given by suitable habits to the first instincts of virtue in children;—when pleasure, and friendship, and pain, and hatred, are rightly implanted in souls not yet capable of understanding the nature of them, and who find them, after they have attained reason, to be in harmony with her. This harmony of the soul, taken as a whole, is virtue; but the particular training in respect of pleasure and pain, which leads you always to hate what you ought to hate, and love what you ought to love from the beginning of life to the end, may be separated off; and, in my view, will be rightly called education.
ATHENIAN: I believe that pleasure and pain are the first feelings children experience, and I argue that these feelings are the forms in which virtue and vice first appear to them. As for wisdom and true, stable opinions, fortunate is the person who gains them, even later in life; we can say that someone who has them, along with the benefits they bring, is a truly complete individual. By education, I mean the training that shapes appropriate habits around the initial instincts of virtue in children—when feelings like pleasure, friendship, pain, and hatred are correctly instilled in souls that don't yet understand their nature, and who recognize these feelings as aligning with reason once they reach that stage. This overall harmony of the soul is virtue; however, the specific training regarding pleasure and pain that guides you to consistently dislike what you should dislike, and love what you should love, from the start of life to the end, can be distinguished and rightly called education.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that you are quite right in all that you have said and are saying about education.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that you're absolutely right about education in everything you've said and are saying.
ATHENIAN: I am glad to hear that you agree with me; for, indeed, the discipline of pleasure and pain which, when rightly ordered, is a principle of education, has been often relaxed and corrupted in human life. And the Gods, pitying the toils which our race is born to undergo, have appointed holy festivals, wherein men alternate rest with labour; and have given them the Muses and Apollo, the leader of the Muses, and Dionysus, to be companions in their revels, that they may improve their education by taking part in the festivals of the Gods, and with their help. I should like to know whether a common saying is in our opinion true to nature or not. For men say that the young of all creatures cannot be quiet in their bodies or in their voices; they are always wanting to move and cry out; some leaping and skipping, and overflowing with sportiveness and delight at something, others uttering all sorts of cries. But, whereas the animals have no perception of order or disorder in their movements, that is, of rhythm or harmony, as they are called, to us, the Gods, who, as we say, have been appointed to be our companions in the dance, have given the pleasurable sense of harmony and rhythm; and so they stir us into life, and we follow them, joining hands together in dances and songs; and these they call choruses, which is a term naturally expressive of cheerfulness. Shall we begin, then, with the acknowledgment that education is first given through Apollo and the Muses? What do you say?
ATHENIAN: I'm glad to hear you agree with me because, truly, the way we handle pleasure and pain, when done right, is a key part of education, has often been loosened and twisted in human life. The gods, feeling sorry for the struggles our kind has to endure, have set up sacred festivals where people balance rest with work; they have given us the Muses and Apollo, the leader of the Muses, along with Dionysus, to join us in our celebrations so we can enhance our education through participating in the gods’ festivals, with their guidance. I’d like to know if we think a popular saying is accurate or not. People say that the young of all creatures can’t stay still in body or voice; they always want to move and shout; some leap and skip, bursting with playfulness and joy over something, while others make all sorts of noises. But while animals don’t have an understanding of order or chaos in their movements—what we call rhythm or harmony—we, as the gods’ dancing partners, have been gifted the joyful experience of harmony and rhythm; they inspire us into life, and we follow them, joining hands in dances and songs; they call these choruses, a term that naturally conveys cheerfulness. So, shall we start by agreeing that education comes first through Apollo and the Muses? What do you think?
CLEINIAS: I assent.
CLEINIAS: I agree.
ATHENIAN: And the uneducated is he who has not been trained in the chorus, and the educated is he who has been well trained?
ATHENIAN: So, the uneducated person is someone who hasn't been trained in the chorus, while the educated person is someone who has received good training?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And the chorus is made up of two parts, dance and song?
ATHENIAN: So, the chorus consists of two parts, dance and song?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: Then he who is well educated will be able to sing and dance well?
ATHENIAN: So, someone who is well-educated will be able to sing and dance well?
CLEINIAS: I suppose that he will.
CLEINIAS: I think he will.
ATHENIAN: Let us see; what are we saying?
ATHENIAN: Let's see; what are we talking about?
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: He sings well and dances well; now must we add that he sings what is good and dances what is good?
ATHENIAN: He sings well and dances well; do we really need to add that he sings good songs and dances well?
CLEINIAS: Let us make the addition.
CLEINIAS: Let’s add that.
ATHENIAN: We will suppose that he knows the good to be good, and the bad to be bad, and makes use of them accordingly: which now is the better trained in dancing and music—he who is able to move his body and to use his voice in what is understood to be the right manner, but has no delight in good or hatred of evil; or he who is incorrect in gesture and voice, but is right in his sense of pleasure and pain, and welcomes what is good, and is offended at what is evil?
ATHENIAN: Let's assume that he recognizes good as good and bad as bad, and acts accordingly. Who is better trained in dancing and music—someone who can move their body and use their voice in what is considered the right way but feels no joy in good or dislike for evil, or someone who is awkward in their movements and voice but has a proper sense of pleasure and pain, embracing what is good and rejecting what is evil?
CLEINIAS: There is a great difference, Stranger, in the two kinds of education.
CLEINIAS: There's a big difference, Stranger, between the two types of education.
ATHENIAN: If we three know what is good in song and dance, then we truly know also who is educated and who is uneducated; but if not, then we certainly shall not know wherein lies the safeguard of education, and whether there is any or not.
ATHENIAN: If the three of us understand what makes a good song and dance, then we really know who is educated and who isn’t; but if that’s not the case, then we definitely won’t know what the key to education is, or if there even is one.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Let us follow the scent like hounds, and go in pursuit of beauty of figure, and melody, and song, and dance; if these escape us, there will be no use in talking about true education, whether Hellenic or barbarian.
ATHENIAN: Let's chase after beauty in form, melody, song, and dance like hounds on a scent. If we miss these, discussing true education—whether it's Greek or foreign—won’t matter.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: And what is beauty of figure, or beautiful melody? When a manly soul is in trouble, and when a cowardly soul is in similar case, are they likely to use the same figures and gestures, or to give utterance to the same sounds?
ATHENIAN: So, what does it mean to have a beautiful appearance or a lovely melody? When a brave soul is in distress, and when a cowardly soul faces the same situation, do they express themselves with the same gestures and movements, or do they make the same sounds?
CLEINIAS: How can they, when the very colours of their faces differ?
CLEINIAS: How can they, when the colors of their faces are so different?
ATHENIAN: Good, my friend; I may observe, however, in passing, that in music there certainly are figures and there are melodies: and music is concerned with harmony and rhythm, so that you may speak of a melody or figure having good rhythm or good harmony—the term is correct enough; but to speak metaphorically of a melody or figure having a 'good colour,' as the masters of choruses do, is not allowable, although you can speak of the melodies or figures of the brave and the coward, praising the one and censuring the other. And not to be tedious, let us say that the figures and melodies which are expressive of virtue of soul or body, or of images of virtue, are without exception good, and those which are expressive of vice are the reverse of good.
ATHENIAN: That’s true, my friend; I just want to point out that in music, there are definitely patterns and melodies. Music involves harmony and rhythm, so it's appropriate to say that a melody or pattern has good rhythm or harmony. However, it's not acceptable to metaphorically describe a melody or pattern as having a 'good color,' like how chorus masters do. You can talk about the melodies or patterns of the brave and the cowardly, praising one and critiquing the other. To keep it brief, let's say that the patterns and melodies that express moral virtue, whether of the soul or body, or images of virtue, are always good, while those that express vice are the opposite of good.
CLEINIAS: Your suggestion is excellent; and let us answer that these things are so.
CLEINIAS: Your suggestion is great; let's agree that these things are true.
ATHENIAN: Once more, are all of us equally delighted with every sort of dance?
ATHENIAN: Are we all equally excited about every kind of dance?
CLEINIAS: Far otherwise.
CLEINIAS: Not at all.
ATHENIAN: What, then, leads us astray? Are beautiful things not the same to us all, or are they the same in themselves, but not in our opinion of them? For no one will admit that forms of vice in the dance are more beautiful than forms of virtue, or that he himself delights in the forms of vice, and others in a muse of another character. And yet most persons say, that the excellence of music is to give pleasure to our souls. But this is intolerable and blasphemous; there is, however, a much more plausible account of the delusion.
ATHENIAN: So what misleads us? Are beautiful things not the same for everyone, or are they the same in themselves but not in how we see them? No one would agree that the bad forms in dance are more beautiful than the good ones, or that they personally enjoy the bad forms while others enjoy different kinds. Yet most people claim that the purpose of music is to bring pleasure to our souls. But this is unacceptable and outrageous; however, there is a much more convincing explanation for this misunderstanding.
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: The adaptation of art to the characters of men. Choric movements are imitations of manners occurring in various actions, fortunes, dispositions,—each particular is imitated, and those to whom the words, or songs, or dances are suited, either by nature or habit or both, cannot help feeling pleasure in them and applauding them, and calling them beautiful. But those whose natures, or ways, or habits are unsuited to them, cannot delight in them or applaud them, and they call them base. There are others, again, whose natures are right and their habits wrong, or whose habits are right and their natures wrong, and they praise one thing, but are pleased at another. For they say that all these imitations are pleasant, but not good. And in the presence of those whom they think wise, they are ashamed of dancing and singing in the baser manner, or of deliberately lending any countenance to such proceedings; and yet, they have a secret pleasure in them.
ATHENIAN: The way art reflects the personalities of people. Choral movements are imitations of behaviors that happen in various actions, circumstances, and temperaments—each detail is portrayed, and those who connect with the words, songs, or dances, whether by nature or habit or both, can’t help but enjoy them, applaud them, and call them beautiful. But those whose natures, habits, or ways don’t align with them find no joy in them or applause for them, labeling them as inferior. Then there are others whose natures are right but habits are wrong, or whose habits are right but natures are wrong, who praise one thing but enjoy another. They claim that all these imitations are enjoyable, but not good. In front of those they consider wise, they feel embarrassed to dance and sing in a less refined way or to openly support such activities; yet, they secretly take pleasure in them.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: And is any harm done to the lover of vicious dances or songs, or any good done to the approver of the opposite sort of pleasure?
ATHENIAN: Is there any harm done to someone who enjoys bad dances or songs, or any good done to someone who appreciates the opposite type of pleasure?
CLEINIAS: I think that there is.
CLEINIAS: I think there is.
ATHENIAN: 'I think' is not the word, but I would say, rather, 'I am certain.' For must they not have the same effect as when a man associates with bad characters, whom he likes and approves rather than dislikes, and only censures playfully because he has a suspicion of his own badness? In that case, he who takes pleasure in them will surely become like those in whom he takes pleasure, even though he be ashamed to praise them. And what greater good or evil can any destiny ever make us undergo?
ATHENIAN: 'I think' isn't quite right; I would say, 'I am certain.' Aren't the effects the same as when someone hangs out with bad company, whom they like and approve of rather than dislike, and only mock them lightly because they suspect their own flaws? In that situation, someone who enjoys their company will definitely start to resemble those they enjoy, even if they're embarrassed to commend them. And what greater good or evil could any fate ever force us to experience?
CLEINIAS: I know of none.
CLEINIAS: I don't know any.
ATHENIAN: Then in a city which has good laws, or in future ages is to have them, bearing in mind the instruction and amusement which are given by music, can we suppose that the poets are to be allowed to teach in the dance anything which they themselves like, in the way of rhythm, or melody, or words, to the young children of any well-conditioned parents? Is the poet to train his choruses as he pleases, without reference to virtue or vice?
ATHENIAN: So in a city with good laws, or one that will have them in the future, considering the guidance and enjoyment that music provides, can we really think that poets should be allowed to teach whatever rhythms, melodies, or lyrics they want to the young children of well-behaved parents? Should the poet be able to train his choruses however he likes, without considering what is right or wrong?
CLEINIAS: That is surely quite unreasonable, and is not to be thought of.
CLEINIAS: That’s definitely unreasonable and not worth considering.
ATHENIAN: And yet he may do this in almost any state with the exception of Egypt.
ATHENIAN: And yet he can do this in almost any state except Egypt.
CLEINIAS: And what are the laws about music and dancing in Egypt?
CLEINIAS: So, what are the laws regarding music and dancing in Egypt?
ATHENIAN: You will wonder when I tell you: Long ago they appear to have recognized the very principle of which we are now speaking—that their young citizens must be habituated to forms and strains of virtue. These they fixed, and exhibited the patterns of them in their temples; and no painter or artist is allowed to innovate upon them, or to leave the traditional forms and invent new ones. To this day, no alteration is allowed either in these arts, or in music at all. And you will find that their works of art are painted or moulded in the same forms which they had ten thousand years ago;—this is literally true and no exaggeration,—their ancient paintings and sculptures are not a whit better or worse than the work of to-day, but are made with just the same skill.
ATHENIAN: You’ll be surprised when I tell you this: A long time ago, they seemed to understand the very principle we’re discussing now—that young citizens must be trained in the values of virtue. They established these values and displayed their examples in their temples; no painter or artist is allowed to change them or create new forms. Even today, no changes are permitted in these arts or in music at all. You’ll see that their art is painted or sculpted in the same styles they used ten thousand years ago—this is literally true and not an exaggeration— their ancient paintings and sculptures are just as good, or just as bad, as today’s work, made with exactly the same skill.
CLEINIAS: How extraordinary!
CLEINIAS: That's amazing!
ATHENIAN: I should rather say, How statesmanlike, how worthy of a legislator! I know that other things in Egypt are not so well. But what I am telling you about music is true and deserving of consideration, because showing that a lawgiver may institute melodies which have a natural truth and correctness without any fear of failure. To do this, however, must be the work of God, or of a divine person; in Egypt they have a tradition that their ancient chants which have been preserved for so many ages are the composition of the Goddess Isis. And therefore, as I was saying, if a person can only find in any way the natural melodies, he may confidently embody them in a fixed and legal form. For the love of novelty which arises out of pleasure in the new and weariness of the old, has not strength enough to corrupt the consecrated song and dance, under the plea that they have become antiquated. At any rate, they are far from being corrupted in Egypt.
ATHENIAN: I’d rather say, How impressive, how deserving of a legislator! I know that other things in Egypt aren’t as good. But what I’m telling you about music is true and worth considering, because it shows that a lawmaker can create melodies that have natural truth and correctness without any fear of failure. However, this must be the work of God or a divine person; in Egypt, there’s a tradition that their ancient chants, which have been preserved for so many ages, are the compositions of the Goddess Isis. So, as I was saying, if someone can find the natural melodies in any way, they can confidently put them into a fixed and legal form. The desire for new things that comes from enjoying the fresh and getting tired of the old isn’t strong enough to ruin the sacred song and dance just because they’ve become outdated. In any case, they are far from being corrupted in Egypt.
CLEINIAS: Your arguments seem to prove your point.
CLEINIAS: Your arguments seem to support your point.
ATHENIAN: May we not confidently say that the true use of music and of choral festivities is as follows: We rejoice when we think that we prosper, and again we think that we prosper when we rejoice?
ATHENIAN: Can we not confidently say that the real purpose of music and choral celebrations is this: We feel happy when we believe we are thriving, and we believe we are thriving when we feel happy?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: And when rejoicing in our good fortune, we are unable to be still?
ATHENIAN: And when we're celebrating our good luck, can we really stay quiet?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Our young men break forth into dancing and singing, and we who are their elders deem that we are fulfilling our part in life when we look on at them. Having lost our agility, we delight in their sports and merry-making, because we love to think of our former selves; and gladly institute contests for those who are able to awaken in us the memory of our youth.
ATHENIAN: Our young men burst into dancing and singing, and we older folks believe we're doing our part in life when we watch them. Since we've lost our agility, we enjoy their fun and games because it reminds us of our younger days; and we happily set up competitions for those who can bring back memories of our youth.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Is it altogether unmeaning to say, as the common people do about festivals, that he should be adjudged the wisest of men, and the winner of the palm, who gives us the greatest amount of pleasure and mirth? For on such occasions, and when mirth is the order of the day, ought not he to be honoured most, and, as I was saying, bear the palm, who gives most mirth to the greatest number? Now is this a true way of speaking or of acting?
ATHENIAN: Is it completely meaningless to say, as regular people do about festivals, that he should be considered the wisest man and the winner of the prize, who brings us the most joy and laughter? Because on such occasions, when fun is what's expected, shouldn't the person who brings the most joy to the largest crowd be honored the most, and as I mentioned, receive the prize? Is this a genuine way of speaking or acting?
CLEINIAS: Possibly.
CLEINIAS: Maybe.
ATHENIAN: But, my dear friend, let us distinguish between different cases, and not be hasty in forming a judgment: One way of considering the question will be to imagine a festival at which there are entertainments of all sorts, including gymnastic, musical, and equestrian contests: the citizens are assembled; prizes are offered, and proclamation is made that any one who likes may enter the lists, and that he is to bear the palm who gives the most pleasure to the spectators—there is to be no regulation about the manner how; but he who is most successful in giving pleasure is to be crowned victor, and deemed to be the pleasantest of the candidates: What is likely to be the result of such a proclamation?
ATHENIAN: But, my dear friend, let’s differentiate between various situations and not rush to conclusions: One way to look at the issue is to picture a festival with all kinds of entertainment, including athletic, musical, and equestrian competitions: the citizens gather; prizes are offered, and an announcement is made that anyone who wants to can participate, with the winner being the one who brings the most joy to the audience—there will be no regulations on how to achieve this; the person who succeeds best in entertaining will be crowned the winner and considered the most enjoyable of the participants: What do you think will happen as a result of such an announcement?
CLEINIAS: In what respect?
CLEINIAS: In what way?
ATHENIAN: There would be various exhibitions: one man, like Homer, will exhibit a rhapsody, another a performance on the lute; one will have a tragedy, and another a comedy. Nor would there be anything astonishing in some one imagining that he could gain the prize by exhibiting a puppet-show. Suppose these competitors to meet, and not these only, but innumerable others as well—can you tell me who ought to be the victor?
ATHENIAN: There would be different showcases: one person, like Homer, would present a rhapsody, another would perform on the lute; one would stage a tragedy, and another a comedy. It wouldn't be surprising if someone thought they could win the prize by putting on a puppet show. If these competitors were to gather, along with countless others—can you tell me who should be the winner?
CLEINIAS: I do not see how any one can answer you, or pretend to know, unless he has heard with his own ears the several competitors; the question is absurd.
CLEINIAS: I don’t see how anyone can answer you or claim to know anything unless they’ve actually heard the different competitors themselves; the question is ridiculous.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, if neither of you can answer, shall I answer this question which you deem so absurd?
ATHENIAN: Alright, if neither of you can answer, should I take a shot at this question you think is so ridiculous?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: If very small children are to determine the question, they will decide for the puppet show.
ATHENIAN: If very young kids get to make the decision, they'll choose the puppet show.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: The older children will be advocates of comedy; educated women, and young men, and people in general, will favour tragedy.
ATHENIAN: The older kids will support comedy; educated women, young men, and people in general will prefer tragedy.
CLEINIAS: Very likely.
CLEINIAS: Probably.
ATHENIAN: And I believe that we old men would have the greatest pleasure in hearing a rhapsodist recite well the Iliad and Odyssey, or one of the Hesiodic poems, and would award the victory to him. But, who would really be the victor?—that is the question.
ATHENIAN: I think we older guys would really enjoy hearing a skilled rhapsodist perform the Iliad and Odyssey, or one of Hesiod's poems, and we would probably give him the win. But, who would actually be the true winner?—that's the real question.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: Clearly you and I will have to declare that those whom we old men adjudge victors ought to win; for our ways are far and away better than any which at present exist anywhere in the world.
ATHENIAN: Clearly you and I will have to state that those whom we older men consider winners should indeed win; for our methods are far superior to any that currently exist anywhere in the world.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Thus far I too should agree with the many, that the excellence of music is to be measured by pleasure. But the pleasure must not be that of chance persons; the fairest music is that which delights the best and best educated, and especially that which delights the one man who is pre-eminent in virtue and education. And therefore the judges must be men of character, for they will require both wisdom and courage; the true judge must not draw his inspiration from the theatre, nor ought he to be unnerved by the clamour of the many and his own incapacity; nor again, knowing the truth, ought he through cowardice and unmanliness carelessly to deliver a lying judgment, with the very same lips which have just appealed to the Gods before he judged. He is sitting not as the disciple of the theatre, but, in his proper place, as their instructor, and he ought to be the enemy of all pandering to the pleasure of the spectators. The ancient and common custom of Hellas, which still prevails in Italy and Sicily, did certainly leave the judgment to the body of spectators, who determined the victor by show of hands. But this custom has been the destruction of the poets; for they are now in the habit of composing with a view to please the bad taste of their judges, and the result is that the spectators instruct themselves;—and also it has been the ruin of the theatre; they ought to be having characters put before them better than their own, and so receiving a higher pleasure, but now by their own act the opposite result follows. What inference is to be drawn from all this? Shall I tell you?
ATHENIAN: So far, I agree with the majority that the value of music should be judged by how much pleasure it brings. However, this pleasure shouldn’t be based on the opinions of random people; the best music is the one that pleases those who are the most virtuous and well-educated, especially the one person who stands out in virtue and knowledge. Therefore, the judges must be individuals of good character, as they need both wisdom and courage. A true judge shouldn’t get his ideas from the theater, nor should he be swayed by the noise of the crowd or his own insecurities; knowing the truth, he shouldn’t act out of fear or weakness by giving a false judgment, especially after appealing to the Gods before making his decision. He sits not as a follower of the theater but in his rightful position as their teacher, opposing anything that caters to the crowd’s whims. The traditional practice in Greece, which still exists in Italy and Sicily, has historically allowed the audience to judge, determining the winner by a show of hands. But this practice has harmed the poets; they now write to please the poor tastes of their judges, leading to a situation where the audience ends up teaching themselves. This has also damaged the theater; they should be presented with characters that are better than themselves to receive a greater pleasure, yet their choices have led to the opposite outcome. What can we conclude from all this? Should I tell you?
CLEINIAS: What?
What?
ATHENIAN: The inference at which we arrive for the third or fourth time is, that education is the constraining and directing of youth towards that right reason, which the law affirms, and which the experience of the eldest and best has agreed to be truly right. In order, then, that the soul of the child may not be habituated to feel joy and sorrow in a manner at variance with the law, and those who obey the law, but may rather follow the law and rejoice and sorrow at the same things as the aged—in order, I say, to produce this effect, chants appear to have been invented, which really enchant, and are designed to implant that harmony of which we speak. And, because the mind of the child is incapable of enduring serious training, they are called plays and songs, and are performed in play; just as when men are sick and ailing in their bodies, their attendants give them wholesome diet in pleasant meats and drinks, but unwholesome diet in disagreeable things, in order that they may learn, as they ought, to like the one, and to dislike the other. And similarly the true legislator will persuade, and, if he cannot persuade, will compel the poet to express, as he ought, by fair and noble words, in his rhythms, the figures, and in his melodies, the music of temperate and brave and in every way good men.
ATHENIAN: The conclusion we reach for the third or fourth time is that education is about guiding young people towards the right reason that the law supports, which the wisdom of the oldest and best has recognized as truly right. So, to ensure that a child doesn’t develop joy and sorrow in ways that go against the law and those who follow it, but instead aligns with the law and finds joy and sorrow in the same things as the elderly—in order to achieve this, chants seem to have been created, which truly enchant and aim to instill that harmony we’re talking about. And since children's minds can't handle serious training, these are called plays and songs and are performed in a playful manner; just as when people are unwell, their caregivers provide them with healthy foods in enjoyable forms while avoiding unhealthy options that are unpleasant, so they learn to appreciate the good and dislike the bad. Similarly, the ideal legislator will either persuade or, if persuasion fails, compel the poet to express, as they should, using beautiful and honorable language, in their rhythms, the representations and in their melodies, the music of temperate, brave, and genuinely good people.
CLEINIAS: But do you really imagine, Stranger, that this is the way in which poets generally compose in States at the present day? As far as I can observe, except among us and among the Lacedaemonians, there are no regulations like those of which you speak; in other places novelties are always being introduced in dancing and in music, generally not under the authority of any law, but at the instigation of lawless pleasures; and these pleasures are so far from being the same, as you describe the Egyptian to be, or having the same principles, that they are never the same.
CLEINIAS: Do you really think, Stranger, that this is how poets usually create in societies today? From what I can see, except for us and the Lacedaemonians, there aren't any rules like the ones you mentioned; in other places, new trends in dancing and music are always popping up, usually not guided by any laws but driven by unchecked desires. These desires are so different from what you described the Egyptians to be or their principles that they never end up being the same.
ATHENIAN: Most true, Cleinias; and I daresay that I may have expressed myself obscurely, and so led you to imagine that I was speaking of some really existing state of things, whereas I was only saying what regulations I would like to have about music; and hence there occurred a misapprehension on your part. For when evils are far gone and irremediable, the task of censuring them is never pleasant, although at times necessary. But as we do not really differ, will you let me ask you whether you consider such institutions to be more prevalent among the Cretans and Lacedaemonians than among the other Hellenes?
ATHENIAN: That's true, Cleinias; I might have been unclear, which made you think I was talking about an actual situation, when I was really just sharing the rules I wish we had about music. That's where the confusion came from. When issues are deeply entrenched and impossible to fix, calling them out is never enjoyable, though sometimes it's necessary. But since we don't truly disagree, can I ask you if you think those kinds of institutions are more common among the Cretans and Spartans than among other Greeks?
CLEINIAS: Certainly they are.
CLEINIAS: They definitely are.
ATHENIAN: And if they were extended to the other Hellenes, would it be an improvement on the present state of things?
ATHENIAN: And if they were applied to the other Greeks, would it make things better than they are now?
CLEINIAS: A very great improvement, if the customs which prevail among them were such as prevail among us and the Lacedaemonians, and such as you were just now saying ought to prevail.
CLEINIAS: It would be a huge improvement if their customs were similar to ours and those of the Spartans, and like what you just mentioned should be the norm.
ATHENIAN: Let us see whether we understand one another:—Are not the principles of education and music which prevail among you as follows: you compel your poets to say that the good man, if he be temperate and just, is fortunate and happy; and this whether he be great and strong or small and weak, and whether he be rich or poor; and, on the other hand, if he have a wealth passing that of Cinyras or Midas, and be unjust, he is wretched and lives in misery? As the poet says, and with truth: I sing not, I care not about him who accomplishes all noble things, not having justice; let him who 'draws near and stretches out his hand against his enemies be a just man.' But if he be unjust, I would not have him 'look calmly upon bloody death,' nor 'surpass in swiftness the Thracian Boreas;' and let no other thing that is called good ever be his. For the goods of which the many speak are not really good: first in the catalogue is placed health, beauty next, wealth third; and then innumerable others, as for example to have a keen eye or a quick ear, and in general to have all the senses perfect; or, again, to be a tyrant and do as you like; and the final consummation of happiness is to have acquired all these things, and when you have acquired them to become at once immortal. But you and I say, that while to the just and holy all these things are the best of possessions, to the unjust they are all, including even health, the greatest of evils. For in truth, to have sight, and hearing, and the use of the senses, or to live at all without justice and virtue, even though a man be rich in all the so-called goods of fortune, is the greatest of evils, if life be immortal; but not so great, if the bad man lives only a very short time. These are the truths which, if I am not mistaken, you will persuade or compel your poets to utter with suitable accompaniments of harmony and rhythm, and in these they must train up your youth. Am I not right? For I plainly declare that evils as they are termed are goods to the unjust, and only evils to the just, and that goods are truly good to the good, but evil to the evil. Let me ask again, Are you and I agreed about this?
ATHENIAN: Let’s see if we’re on the same page: Don’t you make your poets say that a good person, if they are temperate and just, is fortunate and happy, whether they are strong or weak, rich or poor? And conversely, if someone has wealth greater than Cinyras or Midas but is unjust, they are miserable and live in suffering? As the poet says, and rightly so: I won’t sing about someone who does great things without justice; let the one who "draws near and stretches out his hand against his enemies" be a just person. But if they are unjust, I wouldn’t want them to "look calmly upon bloody death," nor to "outrun the Thracian Boreas." And let nothing else that is considered good ever belong to them. Because what most people call good isn’t truly good: first on the list is health, then beauty, and third is wealth; followed by countless others, such as having sharp eyesight or a quick ear, or generally having all senses in perfect condition; or, on another note, being a tyrant and doing as one pleases; and the ultimate goal of happiness is to acquire all these things and, upon obtaining them, to become immortal. But you and I say that while these things are the best possessions for the just and holy, for the unjust, they are all, even health, the greatest evils. For in truth, to have sight, hearing, and the use of the senses, or to simply live without justice and virtue, even if one is rich in all the so-called goods of fortune, is the greatest of evils if life is immortal; but it’s not as bad if the unjust person lives only a very short time. These are the truths that, if I'm not mistaken, you will persuade or force your poets to express with fitting harmony and rhythm, and they must use this to educate your youth. Am I right? Because I clearly state that what are called evils are goods for the unjust and only evils for the just, and that goods are truly good for the good but evil for the evil. Let me ask again, are we in agreement on this?
CLEINIAS: I think that we partly agree and partly do not.
CLEINIAS: I think we partially agree and partially disagree.
ATHENIAN: When a man has health and wealth and a tyranny which lasts, and when he is pre-eminent in strength and courage, and has the gift of immortality, and none of the so-called evils which counter-balance these goods, but only the injustice and insolence of his own nature—of such an one you are, I suspect, unwilling to believe that he is miserable rather than happy.
ATHENIAN: When a man has good health, wealth, and a lasting power, and when he stands out in strength and bravery, and possesses the gift of immortality, and is free from the so-called misfortunes that balance these advantages—only plagued by the injustice and arrogance of his own nature—I'd guess you’re reluctant to believe that such a person is more miserable than happy.
CLEINIAS: That is quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's absolutely true.
ATHENIAN: Once more: Suppose that he be valiant and strong, and handsome and rich, and does throughout his whole life whatever he likes, still, if he be unrighteous and insolent, would not both of you agree that he will of necessity live basely? You will surely grant so much?
ATHENIAN: Once again: Imagine that he is brave and strong, attractive and wealthy, and does whatever he wants throughout his life. Still, if he is unjust and arrogant, wouldn’t you both agree that he will inevitably live poorly? Surely, you would acknowledge that much?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And an evil life too?
ATHENIAN: And a bad life too?
CLEINIAS: I am not equally disposed to grant that.
CLEINIAS: I don't feel the same way about that.
ATHENIAN: Will he not live painfully and to his own disadvantage?
ATHENIAN: Won't he end up living a painful life and disadvantage himself?
CLEINIAS: How can I possibly say so?
CLEINIAS: How am I supposed to say that?
ATHENIAN: How! Then may Heaven make us to be of one mind, for now we are of two. To me, dear Cleinias, the truth of what I am saying is as plain as the fact that Crete is an island. And, if I were a lawgiver, I would try to make the poets and all the citizens speak in this strain, and I would inflict the heaviest penalties on any one in all the land who should dare to say that there are bad men who lead pleasant lives, or that the profitable and gainful is one thing, and the just another; and there are many other matters about which I should make my citizens speak in a manner different from the Cretans and Lacedaemonians of this age, and I may say, indeed, from the world in general. For tell me, my good friends, by Zeus and Apollo tell me, if I were to ask these same Gods who were your legislators,—Is not the most just life also the pleasantest? or are there two lives, one of which is the justest and the other the pleasantest?—and they were to reply that there are two; and thereupon I proceeded to ask, (that would be the right way of pursuing the enquiry), Which are the happier—those who lead the justest, or those who lead the pleasantest life? and they replied, Those who lead the pleasantest—that would be a very strange answer, which I should not like to put into the mouth of the Gods. The words will come with more propriety from the lips of fathers and legislators, and therefore I will repeat my former questions to one of them, and suppose him to say again that he who leads the pleasantest life is the happiest. And to that I rejoin:—O my father, did you not wish me to live as happily as possible? And yet you also never ceased telling me that I should live as justly as possible. Now, here the giver of the rule, whether he be legislator or father, will be in a dilemma, and will in vain endeavour to be consistent with himself. But if he were to declare that the justest life is also the happiest, every one hearing him would enquire, if I am not mistaken, what is that good and noble principle in life which the law approves, and which is superior to pleasure. For what good can the just man have which is separated from pleasure? Shall we say that glory and fame, coming from Gods and men, though good and noble, are nevertheless unpleasant, and infamy pleasant? Certainly not, sweet legislator. Or shall we say that the not-doing of wrong and there being no wrong done is good and honourable, although there is no pleasure in it, and that the doing wrong is pleasant, but evil and base?
ATHENIAN: How is that possible! May Heaven help us to agree, because right now we don’t see eye to eye. To me, dear Cleinias, the truth of what I’m saying is as clear as the fact that Crete is an island. If I were a lawmaker, I would make sure that poets and all citizens spoke in this way, and I would impose the strictest penalties on anyone in the land who dared to claim that there are bad people living good lives, or that what is profitable and advantageous is different from what is just. There are many other issues about which I would want my citizens to speak differently from the Cretans and Spartans of today, and I would say, indeed, from the world in general. For tell me, my good friends, by Zeus and Apollo, if I were to ask these same Gods who were your lawmakers—Isn't the most just life also the most pleasant? Or are there two lives, one that is the most just and the other the most pleasant?—and if they were to answer that there are two; then I would ask (and that would be the right way to pursue the inquiry), Which lives are happier—the ones who live the most justly, or those who live the most pleasantly? If they replied that those who live the most pleasantly are happier—that would be a very strange answer, one I wouldn’t want to attribute to the Gods. Such words would better come from the mouths of fathers and lawmakers, and so I will repeat my earlier questions to one of them, and suppose he says again that the one who lives the most pleasantly is the happiest. To that I respond:—O my father, didn’t you want me to live as happily as possible? And yet you also always told me that I should live as justly as I can. Here, the giver of the rule, whether he’s a lawmaker or a father, finds himself in a dilemma and will struggle in vain to be consistent. But if he were to declare that the most just life is also the happiest, everyone hearing him would want to know, if I’m not mistaken, what that good and noble principle in life is that the law supports and that is superior to pleasure. For what good can the just man have that is separate from pleasure? Should we say that the glory and fame, coming from the Gods and men, though good and noble, are nonetheless unpleasant, while infamy is pleasant? Certainly not, dear legislator. Or should we say that not doing wrong and there being no wrong done is good and honorable, even if there’s no pleasure in it, while doing wrong is pleasant, but evil and base?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: The view which identifies the pleasant and the pleasant and the just and the good and the noble has an excellent moral and religious tendency. And the opposite view is most at variance with the designs of the legislator, and is, in his opinion, infamous; for no one, if he can help, will be persuaded to do that which gives him more pain than pleasure. But as distant prospects are apt to make us dizzy, especially in childhood, the legislator will try to purge away the darkness and exhibit the truth; he will persuade the citizens, in some way or other, by customs and praises and words, that just and unjust are shadows only, and that injustice, which seems opposed to justice, when contemplated by the unjust and evil man appears pleasant and the just most unpleasant; but that from the just man's point of view, the very opposite is the appearance of both of them.
ATHENIAN: The perspective that links pleasure with what is just, good, and noble has a strong moral and religious foundation. In contrast, the opposing view clashes with the intentions of the lawmaker and is, in his eyes, disgraceful; for no one, if they can avoid it, will choose to do something that causes them more pain than pleasure. However, since distant views can often confuse us, especially in childhood, the lawmaker will attempt to clear away the confusion and reveal the truth. He will encourage the citizens, through traditions, praise, and words, to understand that concepts of justice and injustice are merely illusions, and that while injustice might seem appealing to the unjust and immoral person, the just person sees the opposite.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: And which may be supposed to be the truer judgment—that of the inferior or of the better soul?
ATHENIAN: So which is thought to be the more accurate judgment— that of the inferior soul or the superior one?
CLEINIAS: Surely, that of the better soul.
CLEINIAS: Surely, that would be the better soul.
ATHENIAN: Then the unjust life must not only be more base and depraved, but also more unpleasant than the just and holy life?
ATHENIAN: So, the unjust life has to be not just more lowly and corrupt, but also more unpleasant than the just and virtuous life?
CLEINIAS: That seems to be implied in the present argument.
CLEINIAS: That looks to be implied in the current discussion.
ATHENIAN: And even supposing this were otherwise, and not as the argument has proven, still the lawgiver, who is worth anything, if he ever ventures to tell a lie to the young for their good, could not invent a more useful lie than this, or one which will have a better effect in making them do what is right, not on compulsion but voluntarily.
ATHENIAN: And even if that wasn't the case, and things weren't as the argument has shown, a truly valuable lawmaker, if he ever tries to tell a lie to the young for their benefit, couldn't come up with a more useful lie than this, nor one that would have a better impact in encouraging them to do what's right, not out of force but willingly.
CLEINIAS: Truth, Stranger, is a noble thing and a lasting, but a thing of which men are hard to be persuaded.
CLEINIAS: Honestly, Stranger, truth is a noble and enduring thing, but it's something people are often difficult to convince about.
ATHENIAN: And yet the story of the Sidonian Cadmus, which is so improbable, has been readily believed, and also innumerable other tales.
ATHENIAN: And still, the tale of the Sidonian Cadmus, which seems so unlikely, has been easily accepted, along with countless other stories.
CLEINIAS: What is that story?
CLEINIAS: What's that story?
ATHENIAN: The story of armed men springing up after the sowing of teeth, which the legislator may take as a proof that he can persuade the minds of the young of anything; so that he has only to reflect and find out what belief will be of the greatest public advantage, and then use all his efforts to make the whole community utter one and the same word in their songs and tales and discourses all their life long. But if you do not agree with me, there is no reason why you should not argue on the other side.
ATHENIAN: The tale of warriors arising from the planting of teeth shows that a lawmaker can convince the youth of anything. All he needs to do is think carefully about which belief will benefit the public the most, and then strive to make the entire community express the same ideas in their songs, stories, and discussions throughout their lives. However, if you disagree with me, you’re welcome to argue your side.
CLEINIAS: I do not see that any argument can fairly be raised by either of us against what you are now saying.
CLEINIAS: I don't think either of us can really argue against what you're saying right now.
ATHENIAN: The next suggestion which I have to offer is, that all our three choruses shall sing to the young and tender souls of children, reciting in their strains all the noble thoughts of which we have already spoken, or are about to speak; and the sum of them shall be, that the life which is by the Gods deemed to be the happiest is also the best;—we shall affirm this to be a most certain truth; and the minds of our young disciples will be more likely to receive these words of ours than any others which we might address to them.
ATHENIAN: My next suggestion is that all three of our choruses should sing to the young and innocent souls of children, sharing in their songs all the noble ideas we've discussed and will discuss; and the essence of these ideas will be that the life considered by the Gods to be the happiest is also the best;—we will declare this to be a definite truth, and our young learners are more likely to accept these words from us than any others we might say to them.
CLEINIAS: I assent to what you say.
CLEINIAS: I agree with what you’re saying.
ATHENIAN: First will enter in their natural order the sacred choir composed of children, which is to sing lustily the heaven-taught lay to the whole city. Next will follow the choir of young men under the age of thirty, who will call upon the God Paean to testify to the truth of their words, and will pray him to be gracious to the youth and to turn their hearts. Thirdly, the choir of elder men, who are from thirty to sixty years of age, will also sing. There remain those who are too old to sing, and they will tell stories, illustrating the same virtues, as with the voice of an oracle.
ATHENIAN: First, the sacred choir made up of children will enter in their natural order to sing joyfully the heavenly song for everyone in the city. Next, the choir of young men under thirty will follow, calling on the God Paean to confirm their words and asking him to be kind to the youth and change their hearts. Third, the choir of older men, aged thirty to sixty, will also sing. Finally, the oldest members, too old to sing, will share stories that highlight the same virtues, speaking like an oracle.
CLEINIAS: Who are those who compose the third choir, Stranger? for I do not clearly understand what you mean to say about them.
CLEINIAS: Who are the people in the third choir, Stranger? I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by them.
ATHENIAN: And yet almost all that I have been saying has been said with a view to them.
ATHENIAN: And yet almost everything I’ve been saying has been aimed at them.
CLEINIAS: Will you try to be a little plainer?
CLEINIAS: Can you please be a bit clearer?
ATHENIAN: I was speaking at the commencement of our discourse, as you will remember, of the fiery nature of young creatures: I said that they were unable to keep quiet either in limb or voice, and that they called out and jumped about in a disorderly manner; and that no other animal attained to any perception of order, but man only. Now the order of motion is called rhythm, and the order of the voice, in which high and low are duly mingled, is called harmony; and both together are termed choric song. And I said that the Gods had pity on us, and gave us Apollo and the Muses to be our playfellows and leaders in the dance; and Dionysus, as I dare say that you will remember, was the third.
ATHENIAN: I was talking at the beginning of our conversation, as you’ll recall, about the passionate nature of young beings. I mentioned that they can’t stay still, either in their movements or their voices, and they shout and move around in a chaotic way; and that no other creature develops any sense of order, only humans do. Now, the order in motion is called rhythm, and the organization of sound, where high and low notes are properly mixed, is called harmony; together, they’re known as choric song. I said that the Gods took pity on us and gave us Apollo and the Muses to be our companions and guides in the dance; and Dionysus, as I’m sure you remember, was the third.
CLEINIAS: I quite remember.
CLEINIAS: I remember well.
ATHENIAN: Thus far I have spoken of the chorus of Apollo and the Muses, and I have still to speak of the remaining chorus, which is that of Dionysus.
ATHENIAN: So far, I've talked about the chorus of Apollo and the Muses, and now I need to discuss the other chorus, which is that of Dionysus.
CLEINIAS: How is that arranged? There is something strange, at any rate on first hearing, in a Dionysiac chorus of old men, if you really mean that those who are above thirty, and may be fifty, or from fifty to sixty years of age, are to dance in his honour.
CLEINIAS: How does that work? It sounds odd, at least at first, to have a Dionysian chorus of old men if you're saying that those who are over thirty, or even up to fifty, or from fifty to sixty years old, are supposed to dance in his honor.
ATHENIAN: Very true; and therefore it must be shown that there is good reason for the proposal.
ATHENIAN: That’s absolutely right; so we need to demonstrate that there’s a solid reason for the suggestion.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Are we agreed thus far?
ATHENIAN: Are we all on the same page so far?
CLEINIAS: About what?
CLEINIAS: About what exactly?
ATHENIAN: That every man and boy, slave and free, both sexes, and the whole city, should never cease charming themselves with the strains of which we have spoken; and that there should be every sort of change and variation of them in order to take away the effect of sameness, so that the singers may always receive pleasure from their hymns, and may never weary of them?
ATHENIAN: That every man and boy, slave and free, both genders, and the entire city should always enjoy the music we've talked about; and that there should be all kinds of changes and variations to keep things from feeling monotonous, so that the singers can always find joy in their songs and never tire of them?
CLEINIAS: Every one will agree.
CLEINIAS: Everyone will agree.
ATHENIAN: Where, then, will that best part of our city which, by reason of age and intelligence, has the greatest influence, sing these fairest of strains, which are to do so much good? Shall we be so foolish as to let them off who would give us the most beautiful and also the most useful of songs?
ATHENIAN: So, where will the best part of our city, which has the most influence due to its age and intelligence, sing these beautiful songs that can do so much good? Are we really going to be so foolish as to let go of those who would give us the most beautiful and useful songs?
CLEINIAS: But, says the argument, we cannot let them off.
CLEINIAS: But, the argument goes, we can't just let them off the hook.
ATHENIAN: Then how can we carry out our purpose with decorum? Will this be the way?
ATHENIAN: So how can we achieve our goal with respect? Is this the right way?
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: What’s up?
ATHENIAN: When a man is advancing in years, he is afraid and reluctant to sing;—he has no pleasure in his own performances; and if compulsion is used, he will be more and more ashamed, the older and more discreet he grows;—is not this true?
ATHENIAN: When a man gets older, he becomes fearful and hesitant to sing; he finds no joy in his own performances, and if pressured, he'll feel more ashamed as he ages and becomes more sensible. Isn't that true?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Well, and will he not be yet more ashamed if he has to stand up and sing in the theatre to a mixed audience?—and if moreover when he is required to do so, like the other choirs who contend for prizes, and have been trained under a singing master, he is pinched and hungry, he will certainly have a feeling of shame and discomfort which will make him very unwilling to exhibit.
ATHENIAN: So, won't he feel even more embarrassed if he has to stand up and sing in front of a mixed audience? Plus, if he's expected to do it like the other choirs competing for prizes, who have been trained by a vocal coach, while he’s starving and uncomfortable, he will definitely experience shame and discomfort that will make him really reluctant to perform.
CLEINIAS: No doubt.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: How, then, shall we reassure him, and get him to sing? Shall we begin by enacting that boys shall not taste wine at all until they are eighteen years of age; we will tell them that fire must not be poured upon fire, whether in the body or in the soul, until they begin to go to work—this is a precaution which has to be taken against the excitableness of youth;—afterwards they may taste wine in moderation up to the age of thirty, but while a man is young he should abstain altogether from intoxication and from excess of wine; when, at length, he has reached forty years, after dinner at a public mess, he may invite not only the other Gods, but Dionysus above all, to the mystery and festivity of the elder men, making use of the wine which he has given men to lighten the sourness of old age; that in age we may renew our youth, and forget our sorrows; and also in order that the nature of the soul, like iron melted in the fire, may become softer and so more impressible. In the first place, will not any one who is thus mellowed be more ready and less ashamed to sing—I do not say before a large audience, but before a moderate company; nor yet among strangers, but among his familiars, and, as we have often said, to chant, and to enchant?
ATHENIAN: So, how can we reassure him and get him to sing? Should we start by making a rule that boys can’t drink wine until they're eighteen? We'll tell them that fire shouldn’t be mixed with fire, whether it’s in the body or the soul, until they start working—this is a precaution against the impulsiveness of youth; after that, they can drink wine in moderation until they’re thirty, but while they’re young, they should completely avoid intoxication and excessive drinking. Once they reach forty, after dinner at a gathering, they can invite not just the other gods, but especially Dionysus, to join in the celebrations of older men, using the wine that he gave to ease the bitterness of aging; so that in our old age, we can recapture our youth and forget our troubles; and also so that the nature of the soul, like iron heated in fire, can become softer and more receptive. For starters, wouldn’t anyone who feels this relaxed be more willing and less embarrassed to sing—not in front of a large crowd, but in a small group; not among strangers, but among friends, and, as we have often said, to chant and to delight?
CLEINIAS: He will be far more ready.
CLEINIAS: He’ll be much more willing.
ATHENIAN: There will be no impropriety in our using such a method of persuading them to join with us in song.
ATHENIAN: There’s nothing wrong with using this method to convince them to sing along with us.
CLEINIAS: None at all.
None at all.
ATHENIAN: And what strain will they sing, and what muse will they hymn? The strain should clearly be one suitable to them.
ATHENIAN: So, what song will they sing, and which muse will they celebrate? The song should definitely be one that fits them well.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Of course.
ATHENIAN: And what strain is suitable for heroes? Shall they sing a choric strain?
ATHENIAN: So what kind of music works for heroes? Should they perform a choir song?
CLEINIAS: Truly, Stranger, we of Crete and Lacedaemon know no strain other than that which we have learnt and been accustomed to sing in our chorus.
CLEINIAS: Honestly, Stranger, we from Crete and Lacedaemon don’t know any tune other than the one we’ve learned and practiced in our chorus.
ATHENIAN: I dare say; for you have never acquired the knowledge of the most beautiful kind of song, in your military way of life, which is modelled after the camp, and is not like that of dwellers in cities; and you have your young men herding and feeding together like young colts. No one takes his own individual colt and drags him away from his fellows against his will, raging and foaming, and gives him a groom to attend to him alone, and trains and rubs him down privately, and gives him the qualities in education which will make him not only a good soldier, but also a governor of a state and of cities. Such an one, as we said at first, would be a greater warrior than he of whom Tyrtaeus sings; and he would honour courage everywhere, but always as the fourth, and not as the first part of virtue, either in individuals or states.
ATHENIAN: I must say, you've never really learned the most beautiful kind of song because of your military lifestyle, which is shaped by the camp and is nothing like that of city dwellers. You have your young men all grouped together, like young colts, herding and feeding. No one takes a single colt and drags him away from his friends against his will, making him angry and restless, and then gives him an attendant to look after him alone, training and grooming him privately, and teaching him the skills that will make him not just a good soldier but also a leader in a state and cities. As we mentioned earlier, someone like that would be a greater warrior than the one Tyrtaeus sings about; he would respect courage everywhere, but always as the fourth quality, not the first, in both individuals and states.
CLEINIAS: Once more, Stranger, I must complain that you depreciate our lawgivers.
CLEINIAS: Once again, Stranger, I have to say that you downplay our lawmakers.
ATHENIAN: Not intentionally, if at all, my good friend; but whither the argument leads, thither let us follow; for if there be indeed some strain of song more beautiful than that of the choruses or the public theatres, I should like to impart it to those who, as we say, are ashamed of these, and want to have the best.
ATHENIAN: Not on purpose, if anything, my good friend; but wherever the conversation takes us, let’s go there; because if there really is a type of song that's more beautiful than those from the choruses or the public theaters, I’d love to share it with those who, as we say, are embarrassed by these and want the best.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: When things have an accompanying charm, either the best thing in them is this very charm, or there is some rightness or utility possessed by them;—for example, I should say that eating and drinking, and the use of food in general, have an accompanying charm which we call pleasure; but that this rightness and utility is just the healthfulness of the things served up to us, which is their true rightness.
ATHENIAN: When things come with a certain charm, either that charm is their best quality, or they have some kind of value or usefulness; for example, I would say that eating and drinking, and the use of food in general, have a charm that we refer to as pleasure. However, the real value and usefulness come from the healthiness of what is served to us, which is their true worth.
CLEINIAS: Just so.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Thus, too, I should say that learning has a certain accompanying charm which is the pleasure; but that the right and the profitable, the good and the noble, are qualities which the truth gives to it.
ATHENIAN: I would say that learning has a certain charm that comes from pleasure, but the qualities of being right and beneficial, good and noble, are what truth adds to it.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: And so in the imitative arts—if they succeed in making likenesses, and are accompanied by pleasure, may not their works be said to have a charm?
ATHENIAN: So in the imitative arts—if they manage to create likenesses and bring enjoyment, can't we say their works have a certain charm?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: But equal proportions, whether of quality or quantity, and not pleasure, speaking generally, would give them truth or rightness.
ATHENIAN: But equal amounts, whether in quality or quantity, and not just pleasure, would generally provide them with truth or correctness.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: Then that only can be rightly judged by the standard of pleasure, which makes or furnishes no utility or truth or likeness, nor on the other hand is productive of any hurtful quality, but exists solely for the sake of the accompanying charm; and the term 'pleasure' is most appropriately applied to it when these other qualities are absent.
ATHENIAN: Then, we can only judge that by the standard of pleasure, which doesn’t provide any utility, truth, or resemblance, and, on the flip side, doesn’t produce anything harmful, but exists only for the sake of its own appeal; and the term 'pleasure' fits it best when these other qualities are missing.
CLEINIAS: You are speaking of harmless pleasure, are you not?
CLEINIAS: You're talking about innocent pleasure, right?
ATHENIAN: Yes; and this I term amusement, when doing neither harm nor good in any degree worth speaking of.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and I call this amusement, when it doesn't cause any harm or good that’s worth mentioning.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Then, if such be our principles, we must assert that imitation is not to be judged of by pleasure and false opinion; and this is true of all equality, for the equal is not equal or the symmetrical symmetrical, because somebody thinks or likes something, but they are to be judged of by the standard of truth, and by no other whatever.
ATHENIAN: So, if those are our principles, we have to say that imitation shouldn’t be judged by pleasure and mistaken beliefs; and this applies to all concepts of equality. Something isn't equal or symmetrical just because someone thinks it is or likes it; they should be evaluated based on the standard of truth, and nothing else.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: Do we not regard all music as representative and imitative?
ATHENIAN: Don't we see all music as being representative and imitative?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Then, when any one says that music is to be judged of by pleasure, his doctrine cannot be admitted; and if there be any music of which pleasure is the criterion, such music is not to be sought out or deemed to have any real excellence, but only that other kind of music which is an imitation of the good.
ATHENIAN: So, when someone claims that we should evaluate music based on pleasure, we can't accept that view. If there's any music where pleasure is the standard, that music shouldn't be pursued or considered truly excellent. Instead, we should focus on the kind of music that imitates what is good.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And those who seek for the best kind of song and music ought not to seek for that which is pleasant, but for that which is true; and the truth of imitation consists, as we were saying, in rendering the thing imitated according to quantity and quality.
ATHENIAN: Those who look for the best kind of song and music shouldn’t just look for what sounds nice, but for what is true; and the truth of imitation, as we discussed, lies in representing the thing being imitated with the right amount and quality.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And every one will admit that musical compositions are all imitative and representative. Will not poets and spectators and actors all agree in this?
ATHENIAN: And everyone will agree that musical compositions are all imitative and representational. Won't poets, audiences, and performers all agree on this?
CLEINIAS: They will.
They will.
ATHENIAN: Surely then he who would judge correctly must know what each composition is; for if he does not know what is the character and meaning of the piece, and what it represents, he will never discern whether the intention is true or false.
ATHENIAN: So, someone who wants to judge correctly needs to understand what each composition is. If they don’t grasp the character, meaning, and representation of the piece, they will never be able to tell if the intention is genuine or misleading.
CLEINIAS: Certainly not.
Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: And will he who does not know what is true be able to distinguish what is good and bad? My statement is not very clear; but perhaps you will understand me better if I put the matter in another way.
ATHENIAN: And can someone who doesn't know what is true tell the difference between good and bad? My point isn't very clear; but maybe you'll get it better if I explain it differently.
CLEINIAS: How?
CLEINIAS: How?
ATHENIAN: There are ten thousand likenesses of objects of sight?
ATHENIAN: Are there really ten thousand representations of things we can see?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: And can he who does not know what the exact object is which is imitated, ever know whether the resemblance is truthfully executed? I mean, for example, whether a statue has the proportions of a body, and the true situation of the parts; what those proportions are, and how the parts fit into one another in due order; also their colours and conformations, or whether this is all confused in the execution: do you think that any one can know about this, who does not know what the animal is which has been imitated?
ATHENIAN: Can someone who doesn't know the exact object being imitated ever truly determine if the resemblance has been captured accurately? For instance, can they tell if a statue has the right proportions and accurately placed parts? What those proportions should be, and how the parts fit together correctly? Also, what about their colors and shapes, or whether everything is just a jumbled mess in the execution? Do you really think anyone can understand this if they don't know what the animal being imitated is?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
No way.
ATHENIAN: But even if we know that the thing pictured or sculptured is a man, who has received at the hand of the artist all his proper parts and colours and shapes, must we not also know whether the work is beautiful or in any respect deficient in beauty?
ATHENIAN: But even if we can tell that the person in the picture or sculpture is a man, who has been given all his proper parts, colors, and shapes by the artist, do we not also need to know whether the work is beautiful or in any way lacking in beauty?
CLEINIAS: If this were not required, Stranger, we should all of us be judges of beauty.
CLEINIAS: If this weren't necessary, Stranger, we would all be judges of beauty.
ATHENIAN: Very true; and may we not say that in everything imitated, whether in drawing, music, or any other art, he who is to be a competent judge must possess three things;—he must know, in the first place, of what the imitation is; secondly, he must know that it is true; and thirdly, that it has been well executed in words and melodies and rhythms?
ATHENIAN: Absolutely; can we not agree that in anything that is imitated, whether it’s drawing, music, or any other form of art, a good judge must have three key things? First, they need to understand what is being imitated; second, they must recognize that it is authentic; and third, they need to see that it has been skillfully crafted in language, melodies, and rhythms?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then let us not faint in discussing the peculiar difficulty of music. Music is more celebrated than any other kind of imitation, and therefore requires the greatest care of them all. For if a man makes a mistake here, he may do himself the greatest injury by welcoming evil dispositions, and the mistake may be very difficult to discern, because the poets are artists very inferior in character to the Muses themselves, who would never fall into the monstrous error of assigning to the words of men the gestures and songs of women; nor after combining the melodies with the gestures of freemen would they add on the rhythms of slaves and men of the baser sort; nor, beginning with the rhythms and gestures of freemen, would they assign to them a melody or words which are of an opposite character; nor would they mix up the voices and sounds of animals and of men and instruments, and every other sort of noise, as if they were all one. But human poets are fond of introducing this sort of inconsistent mixture, and so make themselves ridiculous in the eyes of those who, as Orpheus says, 'are ripe for true pleasure.' The experienced see all this confusion, and yet the poets go on and make still further havoc by separating the rhythm and the figure of the dance from the melody, setting bare words to metre, and also separating the melody and the rhythm from the words, using the lyre or the flute alone. For when there are no words, it is very difficult to recognize the meaning of the harmony and rhythm, or to see that any worthy object is imitated by them. And we must acknowledge that all this sort of thing, which aims only at swiftness and smoothness and a brutish noise, and uses the flute and the lyre not as the mere accompaniments of the dance and song, is exceedingly coarse and tasteless. The use of either instrument, when unaccompanied, leads to every sort of irregularity and trickery. This is all rational enough. But we are considering not how our choristers, who are from thirty to fifty years of age, and may be over fifty, are not to use the Muses, but how they are to use them. And the considerations which we have urged seem to show in what way these fifty years' old choristers who are to sing, may be expected to be better trained. For they need to have a quick perception and knowledge of harmonies and rhythms; otherwise, how can they ever know whether a melody would be rightly sung to the Dorian mode, or to the rhythm which the poet has assigned to it?
ATHENIAN: Then let’s not shy away from discussing the unique challenges of music. Music is more celebrated than any other form of imitation, which means it demands the most careful attention. If someone makes a mistake here, they might cause themselves significant harm by encouraging negative tendencies, and these mistakes can be hard to spot because poets are often of much lower character than the Muses themselves. The Muses would never make the enormous error of assigning the gestures and songs of women to men's words; nor would they combine the melodies with the movements of free people, only to add in the rhythms of slaves and lower-class individuals. Likewise, they wouldn't start with the rhythms and actions of free people and then give them melodies or words that clash with that character. They wouldn't mix the voices and sounds of animals with those of humans and instruments, treating them all as if they were the same. But human poets love to create this kind of inconsistent mixture, making themselves look foolish in the eyes of those who, as Orpheus puts it, 'are ready for true pleasure.' Those who are experienced see this chaos, yet poets continue to deepen the confusion by separating rhythm and dance from melody, setting plain words to meter, and isolating melody and rhythm from the words by using only the lyre or flute. Without words, it's tough to grasp the meaning of the harmony and rhythm or see that they imitate anything valuable. We have to admit that all this, which seeks only speed, smoothness, and a brutish noise, and employs the flute and the lyre not just as accessories to dancing and singing, is extremely crude and tasteless. Using either instrument alone leads to all kinds of irregularities and deceptions. This reasoning is pretty clear. However, we’re not just considering how our choristers, who are between thirty and fifty years old—and possibly even older—should avoid misusing the Muses, but how they should use them correctly. The points we've raised seem to show how these choristers, who will be singing, can be expected to be better trained. They need to have a keen understanding and awareness of harmonies and rhythms; otherwise, how can they know if a melody is meant to be sung in the Dorian mode or to the rhythm that the poet has given it?
CLEINIAS: Clearly they cannot.
CLEINIAS: Clearly, they can't.
ATHENIAN: The many are ridiculous in imagining that they know what is in proper harmony and rhythm, and what is not, when they can only be made to sing and step in rhythm by force; it never occurs to them that they are ignorant of what they are doing. Now every melody is right when it has suitable harmony and rhythm, and wrong when unsuitable.
ATHENIAN: It's ridiculous that so many people think they know what proper harmony and rhythm are when they're only able to sing and move in time because they're made to do so; they never realize that they don’t actually understand what they’re doing. Every melody is correct when it has the right harmony and rhythm, and incorrect when it doesn’t.
CLEINIAS: That is most certain.
CLEINIAS: That's definitely true.
ATHENIAN: But can a man who does not know a thing, as we were saying, know that the thing is right?
ATHENIAN: But can a person who doesn't know something, like we were saying, know that it's right?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: Then now, as would appear, we are making the discovery that our newly-appointed choristers, whom we hereby invite and, although they are their own masters, compel to sing, must be educated to such an extent as to be able to follow the steps of the rhythm and the notes of the song, that they may know the harmonies and rhythms, and be able to select what are suitable for men of their age and character to sing; and may sing them, and have innocent pleasure from their own performance, and also lead younger men to welcome with dutiful delight good dispositions. Having such training, they will attain a more accurate knowledge than falls to the lot of the common people, or even of the poets themselves. For the poet need not know the third point, viz., whether the imitation is good or not, though he can hardly help knowing the laws of melody and rhythm. But the aged chorus must know all the three, that they may choose the best, and that which is nearest to the best; for otherwise they will never be able to charm the souls of young men in the way of virtue. And now the original design of the argument which was intended to bring eloquent aid to the Chorus of Dionysus, has been accomplished to the best of our ability, and let us see whether we were right:—I should imagine that a drinking assembly is likely to become more and more tumultuous as the drinking goes on: this, as we were saying at first, will certainly be the case.
ATHENIAN: So now it seems we’re realizing that our newly appointed choristers, whom we invite and, even though they are their own masters, encourage to sing, need to be educated enough to keep up with the rhythm and the notes of the song. They should understand the harmonies and rhythms and be able to choose songs that are appropriate for their age and character so they can perform them and genuinely enjoy their own singing while also inspiring younger men to appreciate good character. With this training, they will gain a deeper understanding than what most people, or even the poets themselves, possess. A poet doesn’t necessarily need to know whether the imitation is good or not, although he can hardly avoid knowing the rules of melody and rhythm. However, the older chorus must understand all three aspects in order to select the best options and the closest to the best; otherwise, they will never be able to inspire young men towards virtue. Now the original purpose of our discussion, which aimed to support the Chorus of Dionysus, has been fulfilled to the best of our ability, so let’s see if we were correct: I would guess that a drinking gathering is likely to get more and more chaotic as the drinking continues, which, as we mentioned at the beginning, is definitely the case.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Every man has a more than natural elevation; his heart is glad within him, and he will say anything and will be restrained by nobody at such a time; he fancies that he is able to rule over himself and all mankind.
ATHENIAN: Every man feels a boost beyond the ordinary; his heart is happy inside him, and he will speak freely without being held back by anyone at that moment; he believes that he can control himself and everyone else.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: Were we not saying that on such occasions the souls of the drinkers become like iron heated in the fire, and grow softer and younger, and are easily moulded by him who knows how to educate and fashion them, just as when they were young, and that this fashioner of them is the same who prescribed for them in the days of their youth, viz., the good legislator; and that he ought to enact laws of the banquet, which, when a man is confident, bold, and impudent, and unwilling to wait his turn and have his share of silence and speech, and drinking and music, will change his character into the opposite—such laws as will infuse into him a just and noble fear, which will take up arms at the approach of insolence, being that divine fear which we have called reverence and shame?
ATHENIAN: Were we not saying that on such occasions, the souls of those drinking become like iron heated in fire, growing softer and younger, easily shaped by someone who knows how to educate and mold them, just as they did when they were young? This shaper is the same person who guided them in their youth, namely, the good legislator. He should create laws for the banquet, which, when a person feels confident, bold, and inconsiderate—unwilling to wait their turn and have their share of silence, conversation, drinking, and music—will transform their character into the opposite. Such laws will instill in them a just and noble fear, arming them against arrogance, that divine fear we've referred to as reverence and shame.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: And the guardians of these laws and fellow-workers with them are the calm and sober generals of the drinkers; and without their help there is greater difficulty in fighting against drink than in fighting against enemies when the commander of an army is not himself calm; and he who is unwilling to obey them and the commanders of Dionysiac feasts who are more than sixty years of age, shall suffer a disgrace as great as he who disobeys military leaders, or even greater.
ATHENIAN: The guardians of these laws and their fellow workers are the composed and sensible leaders of the drinkers. Without their support, it's harder to resist alcohol than to face external enemies when the army's commander isn't composed. Anyone who refuses to follow them and the leaders of Dionysian celebrations who are over sixty will face a disgrace as significant as that of someone who disobeys military leaders, or even worse.
CLEINIAS: Right.
CLEINIAS: Got it.
ATHENIAN: If, then, drinking and amusement were regulated in this way, would not the companions of our revels be improved? they would part better friends than they were, and not, as now, enemies. Their whole intercourse would be regulated by law and observant of it, and the sober would be the leaders of the drunken.
ATHENIAN: If drinking and fun were organized like this, wouldn’t our party friends be better off? They would leave as closer friends instead of enemies like they do now. Their interactions would follow the rules and everyone would pay attention to them, with the sober guiding the drunk.
CLEINIAS: I think so too, if drinking were regulated as you propose.
CLEINIAS: I agree, if drinking were managed the way you suggest.
ATHENIAN: Let us not then simply censure the gift of Dionysus as bad and unfit to be received into the State. For wine has many excellences, and one pre-eminent one, about which there is a difficulty in speaking to the many, from a fear of their misconceiving and misunderstanding what is said.
ATHENIAN: Let's not just criticize the gift from Dionysus as bad and unsuitable for our society. Wine has many good qualities, and one major one that's hard to talk about with most people because I'm afraid they might misinterpret and misunderstand what I'm saying.
CLEINIAS: To what do you refer?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: There is a tradition or story, which has somehow crept about the world, that Dionysus was robbed of his wits by his stepmother Here, and that out of revenge he inspires Bacchic furies and dancing madnesses in others; for which reason he gave men wine. Such traditions concerning the Gods I leave to those who think that they may be safely uttered (compare Euthyph.; Republic); I only know that no animal at birth is mature or perfect in intelligence; and in the intermediate period, in which he has not yet acquired his own proper sense, he rages and roars without rhyme or reason; and when he has once got on his legs he jumps about without rhyme or reason; and this, as you will remember, has been already said by us to be the origin of music and gymnastic.
ATHENIAN: There’s a tale that’s made its way around the world, saying that Dionysus lost his mind because of his stepmother Hera, and out of spite, he makes others experience wild frenzies and dance crazes; that’s why he gave humanity wine. I’ll leave those kinds of stories about the gods to people who think they can safely be shared (see Euthyph.; Republic); what I do know is that no creature is born fully mature or intelligent. During the time they haven’t yet developed their own understanding, they act wildly and scream without sense; and once they can stand, they move about erratically without rhyme or reason; and you’ll recall we’ve noted that this is the root of music and physical training.
CLEINIAS: To be sure, I remember.
CLEINIAS: Of course, I remember that.
ATHENIAN: And did we not say that the sense of harmony and rhythm sprang from this beginning among men, and that Apollo and the Muses and Dionysus were the Gods whom we had to thank for them?
ATHENIAN: Didn't we say that the feeling of harmony and rhythm came from this origin among people, and that we owe our thanks to Apollo, the Muses, and Dionysus for it?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: The other story implied that wine was given man out of revenge, and in order to make him mad; but our present doctrine, on the contrary, is, that wine was given him as a balm, and in order to implant modesty in the soul, and health and strength in the body.
ATHENIAN: The other story suggested that wine was given to man as an act of revenge, to drive him insane; but our current belief is the opposite: that wine was given as a healing remedy, to instill modesty in the soul, and to promote health and strength in the body.
CLEINIAS: That, Stranger, is precisely what was said.
CLEINIAS: That's exactly what was said, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Then half the subject may now be considered to have been discussed; shall we proceed to the consideration of the other half?
ATHENIAN: So, we've covered about half of the topic; should we move on to the other half now?
CLEINIAS: What is the other half, and how do you divide the subject?
CLEINIAS: What’s the other half, and how do you break down the topic?
ATHENIAN: The whole choral art is also in our view the whole of education; and of this art, rhythms and harmonies form the part which has to do with the voice.
ATHENIAN: We believe that the entire choral art is essentially the whole of education; and within this art, rhythms and harmonies relate specifically to the voice.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yup.
ATHENIAN: The movement of the body has rhythm in common with the movement of the voice, but gesture is peculiar to it, whereas song is simply the movement of the voice.
ATHENIAN: The movement of the body has a rhythm similar to the movement of the voice, but gestures are unique to the body, while song is just the movement of the voice.
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
ATHENIAN: And the sound of the voice which reaches and educates the soul, we have ventured to term music.
ATHENIAN: And the sound of the voice that touches and shapes the soul, we have dared to call music.
CLEINIAS: We were right.
CLEINIAS: We were correct.
ATHENIAN: And the movement of the body, when regarded as an amusement, we termed dancing; but when extended and pursued with a view to the excellence of the body, this scientific training may be called gymnastic.
ATHENIAN: We call the movement of the body dancing when it's seen as entertainment, but when it’s developed and practiced for physical improvement, we refer to this kind of training as gymnastics.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Music, which was one half of the choral art, may be said to have been completely discussed. Shall we proceed to the other half or not? What would you like?
ATHENIAN: Music, which was half of the choral art, has been fully covered. Should we move on to the other half or not? What do you think?
CLEINIAS: My good friend, when you are talking with a Cretan and Lacedaemonian, and we have discussed music and not gymnastic, what answer are either of us likely to make to such an enquiry?
CLEINIAS: My good friend, when you’re chatting with someone from Crete and another from Sparta, and we’ve talked about music instead of gymnastics, what kind of answer are either of us likely to give to such a question?
ATHENIAN: An answer is contained in your question; and I understand and accept what you say not only as an answer, but also as a command to proceed with gymnastic.
ATHENIAN: Your question already holds the answer; I see what you’re saying not just as a response, but as an order to go ahead with gymnastics.
CLEINIAS: You quite understand me; do as you say.
CLEINIAS: You totally get me; go ahead and do what you said.
ATHENIAN: I will; and there will not be any difficulty in speaking intelligibly to you about a subject with which both of you are far more familiar than with music.
ATHENIAN: I will; and there won’t be any trouble talking clearly with you about a topic that you both know much better than music.
CLEINIAS: There will not.
CLEINIAS: It won't happen.
ATHENIAN: Is not the origin of gymnastics, too, to be sought in the tendency to rapid motion which exists in all animals; man, as we were saying, having attained the sense of rhythm, created and invented dancing; and melody arousing and awakening rhythm, both united formed the choral art?
ATHENIAN: Isn't the origin of gymnastics also found in the natural tendency for rapid movement that exists in all animals? As we mentioned, humans, having developed a sense of rhythm, created and invented dancing; and with melody stimulating and awakening rhythm, the two combined to form the choral art?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And one part of this subject has been already discussed by us, and there still remains another to be discussed?
ATHENIAN: We've already talked about one part of this topic, and there's still another part we need to discuss, right?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: I have first a final word to add to my discourse about drink, if you will allow me to do so.
ATHENIAN: I have one last thing to say about drinking, if you don't mind me sharing.
CLEINIAS: What more have you to say?
CLEINIAS: What else do you want to say?
ATHENIAN: I should say that if a city seriously means to adopt the practice of drinking under due regulation and with a view to the enforcement of temperance, and in like manner, and on the same principle, will allow of other pleasures, designing to gain the victory over them—in this way all of them may be used. But if the State makes drinking an amusement only, and whoever likes may drink whenever he likes, and with whom he likes, and add to this any other indulgences, I shall never agree or allow that this city or this man should practise drinking. I would go further than the Cretans and Lacedaemonians, and am disposed rather to the law of the Carthaginians, that no one while he is on a campaign should be allowed to taste wine at all, but that he should drink water during all that time, and that in the city no slave, male or female, should ever drink wine; and that no magistrates should drink during their year of office, nor should pilots of vessels or judges while on duty taste wine at all, nor any one who is going to hold a consultation about any matter of importance; nor in the day-time at all, unless in consequence of exercise or as medicine; nor again at night, when any one, either man or woman, is minded to get children. There are numberless other cases also in which those who have good sense and good laws ought not to drink wine, so that if what I say is true, no city will need many vineyards. Their husbandry and their way of life in general will follow an appointed order, and their cultivation of the vine will be the most limited and the least common of their employments. And this, Stranger, shall be the crown of my discourse about wine, if you agree.
ATHENIAN: I’d say that if a city genuinely intends to regulate drinking with the aim of promoting moderation, and similarly allows for other pleasures with the goal of mastering them, then all these pleasures can be appropriately enjoyed. However, if the State treats drinking as just a form of entertainment, where anyone can drink whenever and with whomever they want, along with indulging in other excesses, I will never support or permit this city or its people to engage in drinking. I would go even further than the Cretans and Lacedaemonians and would prefer the law of the Carthaginians, which says that no one on a campaign should drink wine at all; instead, they should only drink water during that time. Additionally, in the city, no slave, male or female, should ever drink wine, nor should any magistrate drink during their term of office, nor should pilots or judges consume wine while on duty, nor anyone who needs to discuss important matters. No drinking should occur during the day unless it’s due to physical exertion or for medicinal purposes, and not at night when anyone, man or woman, is looking to conceive a child. There are countless other scenarios where sensible individuals with good laws should refrain from drinking wine, meaning that if what I’m saying is correct, a city won't require many vineyards. Their agricultural practices and overall lifestyle will follow a structured order, and their vine cultivation will be the most restricted and least common of their activities. And this, Stranger, will be the conclusion of my thoughts on wine, if you agree.
CLEINIAS: Excellent: we agree.
CLEINIAS: Great: we’re on the same page.
BOOK III.
ATHENIAN: Enough of this. And what, then, is to be regarded as the origin of government? Will not a man be able to judge of it best from a point of view in which he may behold the progress of states and their transitions to good or evil?
ATHENIAN: That's enough of that. So, what's considered the source of government? Wouldn't a person best understand it by observing how states evolve and shift between good and bad?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean that he might watch them from the point of view of time, and observe the changes which take place in them during infinite ages.
ATHENIAN: I mean that he could see them over time and notice the changes that happen to them over endless ages.
CLEINIAS: How so?
CLEINIAS: How's that?
ATHENIAN: Why, do you think that you can reckon the time which has elapsed since cities first existed and men were citizens of them?
ATHENIAN: So, do you think you can calculate the time that has passed since cities first existed and people became their citizens?
CLEINIAS: Hardly.
CLEINIAS: Not really.
ATHENIAN: But are sure that it must be vast and incalculable?
ATHENIAN: But are you sure it has to be huge and impossible to measure?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And have not thousands and thousands of cities come into being during this period and as many perished? And has not each of them had every form of government many times over, now growing larger, now smaller, and again improving or declining?
ATHENIAN: Haven't thousands and thousands of cities come into existence during this time, and just as many have disappeared? And hasn't each of them experienced every type of government repeatedly, sometimes growing larger, sometimes smaller, and occasionally getting better or worse?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Let us endeavour to ascertain the cause of these changes; for that will probably explain the first origin and development of forms of government.
ATHENIAN: Let's try to figure out why these changes are happening, because that will likely explain how different forms of government first started and evolved.
CLEINIAS: Very good. You shall endeavour to impart your thoughts to us, and we will make an effort to understand you.
CLEINIAS: Great. You’ll try to share your thoughts with us, and we’ll do our best to understand you.
ATHENIAN: Do you believe that there is any truth in ancient traditions?
ATHENIAN: Do you think there's any truth in old traditions?
CLEINIAS: What traditions?
CLEINIAS: Which traditions?
ATHENIAN: The traditions about the many destructions of mankind which have been occasioned by deluges and pestilences, and in many other ways, and of the survival of a remnant?
ATHENIAN: The legends about the various disasters that have wiped out humanity due to floods, plagues, and other causes, and about how a small group managed to survive?
CLEINIAS: Every one is disposed to believe them.
CLEINIAS: Everyone is inclined to believe them.
ATHENIAN: Let us consider one of them, that which was caused by the famous deluge.
ATHENIAN: Let's talk about one of them, the one that was caused by the famous flood.
CLEINIAS: What are we to observe about it?
CLEINIAS: What should we pay attention to?
ATHENIAN: I mean to say that those who then escaped would only be hill shepherds,—small sparks of the human race preserved on the tops of mountains.
ATHENIAN: I mean that those who survived would just be hill shepherds—small remnants of humanity living on the mountain peaks.
CLEINIAS: Clearly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: Such survivors would necessarily be unacquainted with the arts and the various devices which are suggested to the dwellers in cities by interest or ambition, and with all the wrongs which they contrive against one another.
ATHENIAN: Such survivors would likely be unfamiliar with the skills and various tricks that people living in cities pursue out of self-interest or ambition, as well as all the injustices they create against each other.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: You're right.
ATHENIAN: Let us suppose, then, that the cities in the plain and on the sea-coast were utterly destroyed at that time.
ATHENIAN: Let's assume, then, that the cities in the plain and on the coast were completely destroyed at that time.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Would not all implements have then perished and every other excellent invention of political or any other sort of wisdom have utterly disappeared?
ATHENIAN: Wouldn't all tools have then been lost and every other great innovation in politics or any other kind of wisdom completely vanished?
CLEINIAS: Why, yes, my friend; and if things had always continued as they are at present ordered, how could any discovery have ever been made even in the least particular? For it is evident that the arts were unknown during ten thousand times ten thousand years. And no more than a thousand or two thousand years have elapsed since the discoveries of Daedalus, Orpheus and Palamedes,—since Marsyas and Olympus invented music, and Amphion the lyre—not to speak of numberless other inventions which are but of yesterday.
CLEINIAS: Yes, my friend; and if things had always stayed the way they are now, how could any discoveries have ever been made, even in the smallest ways? It's clear that the arts were unknown for countless years. Only about a thousand or two thousand years have passed since the discoveries of Daedalus, Orpheus, and Palamedes—since Marsyas and Olympus created music, and Amphion invented the lyre—not to mention countless other inventions that are quite recent.
ATHENIAN: Have you forgotten, Cleinias, the name of a friend who is really of yesterday?
ATHENIAN: Have you forgotten, Cleinias, the name of a friend who is basically from yesterday?
CLEINIAS: I suppose that you mean Epimenides.
CLEINIAS: I guess you’re talking about Epimenides.
ATHENIAN: The same, my friend; he does indeed far overleap the heads of all mankind by his invention; for he carried out in practice, as you declare, what of old Hesiod (Works and Days) only preached.
ATHENIAN: The same, my friend; he definitely surpasses everyone with his invention; because he put into practice, as you say, what old Hesiod (Works and Days) only preached.
CLEINIAS: Yes, according to our tradition.
CLEINIAS: Yes, that's in line with our tradition.
ATHENIAN: After the great destruction, may we not suppose that the state of man was something of this sort:—In the beginning of things there was a fearful illimitable desert and a vast expanse of land; a herd or two of oxen would be the only survivors of the animal world; and there might be a few goats, these too hardly enough to maintain the shepherds who tended them?
ATHENIAN: After the major destruction, can we imagine that the state of humanity was something like this: In the beginning, there was a terrifying, endless desert and a huge stretch of land; a couple of herds of cattle might be the only survivors of the animal kingdom, and there might be a few goats, barely enough to support the shepherds who looked after them?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And of cities or governments or legislation, about which we are now talking, do you suppose that they could have any recollection at all?
ATHENIAN: Do you think that cities, governments, or laws—the things we're discussing right now—could have any memory of this at all?
CLEINIAS: None whatever.
None at all.
ATHENIAN: And out of this state of things has there not sprung all that we now are and have: cities and governments, and arts and laws, and a great deal of vice and a great deal of virtue?
ATHENIAN: And from this situation, haven't we gotten everything we are and have now: cities and governments, arts and laws, along with a lot of vice and a lot of virtue?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: Why, my good friend, how can we possibly suppose that those who knew nothing of all the good and evil of cities could have attained their full development, whether of virtue or of vice?
ATHENIAN: Why, my good friend, how can we possibly think that those who knew nothing about the good and bad of cities could have reached their full potential, whether in virtue or in vice?
CLEINIAS: I understand your meaning, and you are quite right.
CLEINIAS: I see what you mean, and you’re absolutely correct.
ATHENIAN: But, as time advanced and the race multiplied, the world came to be what the world is.
ATHENIAN: But, as time went on and the population grew, the world became what it is today.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Doubtless the change was not made all in a moment, but little by little, during a very long period of time.
ATHENIAN: Surely, the change wasn't made all at once, but gradually, over a very long period of time.
CLEINIAS: A highly probable supposition.
CLEINIAS: A very likely assumption.
ATHENIAN: At first, they would have a natural fear ringing in their ears which would prevent their descending from the heights into the plain.
ATHENIAN: At first, they would have a natural fear echoing in their ears that would keep them from coming down from the heights to the plain.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: The fewness of the survivors at that time would have made them all the more desirous of seeing one another; but then the means of travelling either by land or sea had been almost entirely lost, as I may say, with the loss of the arts, and there was great difficulty in getting at one another; for iron and brass and all metals were jumbled together and had disappeared in the chaos; nor was there any possibility of extracting ore from them; and they had scarcely any means of felling timber. Even if you suppose that some implements might have been preserved in the mountains, they must quickly have worn out and vanished, and there would be no more of them until the art of metallurgy had again revived.
ATHENIAN: The small number of survivors at that time would have made them even more eager to see each other; however, the means of traveling by land or sea had nearly been lost, along with the skills needed to do so. It was very difficult to connect with one another because iron, brass, and all the metals were mixed together and had vanished in the chaos. There was no way to extract ore from them, and they hardly had any way to cut down trees. Even if we assume that some tools might have been preserved in the mountains, they would have quickly worn out and disappeared, with no hope of new ones until the skill of metallurgy was revived.
CLEINIAS: There could not have been.
CLEINIAS: That can't have happened.
ATHENIAN: In how many generations would this be attained?
ATHENIAN: How many generations would it take to achieve this?
CLEINIAS: Clearly, not for many generations.
CLEINIAS: Clearly, not for many generations.
ATHENIAN: During this period, and for some time afterwards, all the arts which require iron and brass and the like would disappear.
ATHENIAN: During this time, and for a while after, all the arts that require iron, brass, and similar materials would vanish.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Faction and war would also have died out in those days, and for many reasons.
ATHENIAN: Groups and conflict would have also disappeared back then, and for many reasons.
CLEINIAS: How would that be?
CLEINIAS: How would that work?
ATHENIAN: In the first place, the desolation of these primitive men would create in them a feeling of affection and goodwill towards one another; and, secondly, they would have no occasion to quarrel about their subsistence, for they would have pasture in abundance, except just at first, and in some particular cases; and from their pasture-land they would obtain the greater part of their food in a primitive age, having plenty of milk and flesh; moreover they would procure other food by the chase, not to be despised either in quantity or quality. They would also have abundance of clothing, and bedding, and dwellings, and utensils either capable of standing on the fire or not; for the plastic and weaving arts do not require any use of iron: and God has given these two arts to man in order to provide him with all such things, that, when reduced to the last extremity, the human race may still grow and increase. Hence in those days mankind were not very poor; nor was poverty a cause of difference among them; and rich they could not have been, having neither gold nor silver:—such at that time was their condition. And the community which has neither poverty nor riches will always have the noblest principles; in it there is no insolence or injustice, nor, again, are there any contentions or envyings. And therefore they were good, and also because they were what is called simple-minded; and when they were told about good and evil, they in their simplicity believed what they heard to be very truth and practised it. No one had the wit to suspect another of a falsehood, as men do now; but what they heard about Gods and men they believed to be true, and lived accordingly; and therefore they were in all respects such as we have described them.
ATHENIAN: First of all, the hardship faced by these early people would foster a sense of love and goodwill among them; secondly, they wouldn’t have any reason to fight over their survival, as they would have plenty of pastures available, except perhaps at the very beginning and in certain situations. From their pasture lands, they would gather most of their food during primitive times, enjoying plenty of milk and meat; additionally, they would hunt for other food, which would be significant in both quantity and quality. They would also have a surplus of clothing, bedding, shelters, and tools, whether made for cooking over a fire or not; because the arts of crafting and weaving don’t rely on the use of iron. God has given humanity these two skills to ensure that, even in the direst situations, people can still thrive and multiply. Therefore, during that time, people were not very poor, nor did poverty lead to conflict among them; they couldn’t be considered rich either, as they had no gold or silver—such was their situation at that time. A community without poverty or wealth will always uphold the highest principles; with no arrogance or injustice, it also lacks contention or jealousy. Thus, they were good-natured and, in many ways, simple-minded; when told about right and wrong, they believed what they heard to be absolute truth and acted accordingly. No one was clever enough to doubt others' honesty as people do today; they accepted what they heard about gods and humans as true and lived by it, and that’s why they were exactly as we’ve described.
CLEINIAS: That quite accords with my views, and with those of my friend here.
CLEINIAS: That aligns perfectly with my thoughts and those of my friend here.
ATHENIAN: Would not many generations living on in a simple manner, although ruder, perhaps, and more ignorant of the arts generally, and in particular of those of land or naval warfare, and likewise of other arts, termed in cities legal practices and party conflicts, and including all conceivable ways of hurting one another in word and deed;—although inferior to those who lived before the deluge, or to the men of our day in these respects, would they not, I say, be simpler and more manly, and also more temperate and altogether more just? The reason has been already explained.
ATHENIAN: Wouldn't many generations living simply, even if they were rougher and less skilled in the arts, especially in land and naval warfare, as well as in other practices associated with cities like legal disputes and political conflicts, which include all possible ways to harm each other through words and actions—wouldn't they, I ask, be more straightforward and manly, and also more moderate and ultimately more just? The reason has already been explained.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: I should wish you to understand that what has preceded and what is about to follow, has been, and will be said, with the intention of explaining what need the men of that time had of laws, and who was their lawgiver.
ATHENIAN: I want you to understand that everything that has been said and will be said has been meant to explain why the people of that time needed laws and who their lawgiver was.
CLEINIAS: And thus far what you have said has been very well said.
CLEINIAS: So far, what you've said has been really well said.
ATHENIAN: They could hardly have wanted lawgivers as yet; nothing of that sort was likely to have existed in their days, for they had no letters at this early period; they lived by habit and the customs of their ancestors, as they are called.
ATHENIAN: They probably didn't need lawgivers yet; nothing like that likely existed in their time since they didn't have writing back then. They lived by routine and the traditions of their ancestors, as they say.
CLEINIAS: Probably.
CLEINIAS: Maybe.
ATHENIAN: But there was already existing a form of government which, if I am not mistaken, is generally termed a lordship, and this still remains in many places, both among Hellenes and barbarians (compare Arist. Pol.), and is the government which is declared by Homer to have prevailed among the Cyclopes:—
ATHENIAN: But there was already a form of government that, if I’m not mistaken, is usually called a lordship, and this still exists in many places, both among Greeks and non-Greeks (see Arist. Pol.), and it’s the type of government that Homer says was common among the Cyclopes:—
'They have neither councils nor judgments, but they dwell in hollow caves on the tops of high mountains, and every one gives law to his wife and children, and they do not busy themselves about one another.' (Odyss.)
'They have no councils or judgments, but they live in hollow caves on the tops of tall mountains, and each person makes the rules for his wife and children, without concerning themselves with one another.' (Odyss.)
CLEINIAS: That seems to be a charming poet of yours; I have read some other verses of his, which are very clever; but I do not know much of him, for foreign poets are very little read among the Cretans.
CLEINIAS: That seems to be a delightful poet of yours; I’ve read some of his other verses, which are quite clever; but I don’t know much about him, since foreign poets aren’t really read much by the Cretans.
MEGILLUS: But they are in Lacedaemon, and he appears to be the prince of them all; the manner of life, however, which he describes is not Spartan, but rather Ionian, and he seems quite to confirm what you are saying, when he traces up the ancient state of mankind by the help of tradition to barbarism.
MEGILLUS: But they are in Lacedaemon, and he seems to be the leader of them all; however, the way of life he describes isn't Spartan but more Ionian, and he definitely supports what you’re saying when he links the early state of humanity through tradition back to barbarism.
ATHENIAN: Yes, he does confirm it; and we may accept his witness to the fact that such forms of government sometimes arise.
ATHENIAN: Yes, he confirms it; and we can take his testimony as proof that such types of government can sometimes emerge.
CLEINIAS: We may.
We might.
ATHENIAN: And were not such states composed of men who had been dispersed in single habitations and families by the poverty which attended the devastations; and did not the eldest then rule among them, because with them government originated in the authority of a father and a mother, whom, like a flock of birds, they followed, forming one troop under the patriarchal rule and sovereignty of their parents, which of all sovereignties is the most just?
ATHENIAN: Weren't those states made up of people who had been scattered into separate homes and families because of the poverty that followed the destruction? And didn't the oldest among them take charge because government started with the authority of a father and a mother, whom they followed like a flock of birds, forming a single group under the leadership and authority of their parents, which is the most fair form of governance?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: That's so true.
ATHENIAN: After this they came together in greater numbers, and increased the size of their cities, and betook themselves to husbandry, first of all at the foot of the mountains, and made enclosures of loose walls and works of defence, in order to keep off wild beasts; thus creating a single large and common habitation.
ATHENIAN: After this, they gathered in larger groups, expanded their cities, and focused on farming, starting at the base of the mountains. They built enclosures with loose walls and defensive structures to keep out wild animals, creating a single, large shared home.
CLEINIAS: Yes; at least we may suppose so.
CLEINIAS: Yeah; we can assume that.
ATHENIAN: There is another thing which would probably happen.
ATHENIAN: There's one more thing that would likely happen.
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: When these larger habitations grew up out of the lesser original ones, each of the lesser ones would survive in the larger; every family would be under the rule of the eldest, and, owing to their separation from one another, would have peculiar customs in things divine and human, which they would have received from their several parents who had educated them; and these customs would incline them to order, when the parents had the element of order in their nature, and to courage, when they had the element of courage. And they would naturally stamp upon their children, and upon their children's children, their own likings; and, as we are saying, they would find their way into the larger society, having already their own peculiar laws.
ATHENIAN: As these larger communities developed from the smaller original ones, each smaller community would continue to exist within the larger one. Every family would be led by the eldest member, and due to their separation from each other, they would have unique customs regarding both religious and social practices, which they inherited from their individual parents who raised them. These customs would encourage them to value order, when their parents had that quality, and bravery, when their parents possessed courage. They would naturally pass on their preferences to their children and grandchildren, and, as we mentioned, they would integrate into the larger society, already bringing their own distinct laws.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And every man surely likes his own laws best, and the laws of others not so well.
ATHENIAN: And every man clearly prefers his own laws and isn’t as fond of those from other places.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then now we seem to have stumbled upon the beginnings of legislation.
ATHENIAN: So it looks like we've just come across the start of legislation.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: The next step will be that these persons who have met together, will select some arbiters, who will review the laws of all of them, and will publicly present such as they approve to the chiefs who lead the tribes, and who are in a manner their kings, allowing them to choose those which they think best. These persons will themselves be called legislators, and will appoint the magistrates, framing some sort of aristocracy, or perhaps monarchy, out of the dynasties or lordships, and in this altered state of the government they will live.
ATHENIAN: The next step is that these people who have come together will choose some arbitrators to review all their laws. They will publicly present the ones they approve to the leaders of the tribes, who are like their kings, allowing them to select what they think is best. These individuals will be called legislators, and they will appoint the magistrates, creating some form of aristocracy or possibly monarchy from the dynasties or lordships, and they will live under this new government structure.
CLEINIAS: Yes, that would be the natural order of things.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, that makes sense.
ATHENIAN: Then, now let us speak of a third form of government, in which all other forms and conditions of polities and cities concur.
ATHENIAN: So, now let's talk about a third type of government, where all other forms and conditions of political systems and cities come together.
CLEINIAS: What is that?
CLEINIAS: What’s that?
ATHENIAN: The form which in fact Homer indicates as following the second. This third form arose when, as he says, Dardanus founded Dardania:—
ATHENIAN: The version that Homer actually mentions as coming after the second. This third version came about when, as he states, Dardanus established Dardania:—
'For not as yet had the holy Ilium been built on the plain to be a city of speaking men; but they were still dwelling at the foot of many-fountained Ida.'
'For the holy Ilium had not yet been built on the plain to become a city of speaking people; instead, they were still living at the base of the many-fountained Ida.'
For indeed, in these verses, and in what he said of the Cyclopes, he speaks the words of God and nature; for poets are a divine race, and often in their strains, by the aid of the Muses and the Graces, they attain truth.
For sure, in these verses, and in what he said about the Cyclopes, he expresses the words of God and nature; poets are a divine group, and often in their work, with the help of the Muses and the Graces, they reach the truth.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: Then now let us proceed with the rest of our tale, which will probably be found to illustrate in some degree our proposed design:—Shall we do so?
ATHENIAN: Then let’s move on with the rest of our story, which you'll probably find illustrates our intended purpose to some extent:—Shall we?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Ilium was built, when they descended from the mountain, in a large and fair plain, on a sort of low hill, watered by many rivers descending from Ida.
ATHENIAN: Ilium was built when they came down from the mountain, in a large and beautiful plain, on a kind of low hill, fed by many rivers that flow down from Ida.
CLEINIAS: Such is the tradition.
CLEINIAS: That's the way it is.
ATHENIAN: And we must suppose this event to have taken place many ages after the deluge?
ATHENIAN: So, we have to assume this event happened many ages after the flood?
ATHENIAN: A marvellous forgetfulness of the former destruction would appear to have come over them, when they placed their town right under numerous streams flowing from the heights, trusting for their security to not very high hills, either.
ATHENIAN: It seems like they've completely forgotten about the past destruction, as they built their town right under several streams coming down from the hills, relying for their safety on the not-so-high hills around them.
CLEINIAS: There must have been a long interval, clearly.
CLEINIAS: There must have been a long break, obviously.
ATHENIAN: And, as population increased, many other cities would begin to be inhabited.
ATHENIAN: And as the population grew, many other cities would start to be settled.
CLEINIAS: Doubtless.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Those cities made war against Troy—by sea as well as land—for at that time men were ceasing to be afraid of the sea.
ATHENIAN: Those cities went to war against Troy—on the sea and on land—because at that time, people were starting to stop fearing the sea.
CLEINIAS: Clearly.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: The Achaeans remained ten years, and overthrew Troy.
ATHENIAN: The Achaeans stayed for ten years and took down Troy.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: And during the ten years in which the Achaeans were besieging Ilium, the homes of the besiegers were falling into an evil plight. Their youth revolted; and when the soldiers returned to their own cities and families, they did not receive them properly, and as they ought to have done, and numerous deaths, murders, exiles, were the consequence. The exiles came again, under a new name, no longer Achaeans, but Dorians,—a name which they derived from Dorieus; for it was he who gathered them together. The rest of the story is told by you Lacedaemonians as part of the history of Sparta.
ATHENIAN: During the ten years the Achaeans were laying siege to Ilium, the homes of the besiegers fell into a terrible state. Their youth revolted; and when the soldiers returned to their cities and families, they weren't welcomed properly, as they should have been, leading to many deaths, murders, and exiles. The exiles came back under a new name, no longer Achaeans, but Dorians—a name they took from Dorieus, because he was the one who brought them together. The rest of the story is recounted by you Lacedaemonians as part of Sparta's history.
MEGILLUS: To be sure.
Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Thus, after digressing from the original subject of laws into music and drinking-bouts, the argument has, providentially, come back to the same point, and presents to us another handle. For we have reached the settlement of Lacedaemon; which, as you truly say, is in laws and in institutions the sister of Crete. And we are all the better for the digression, because we have gone through various governments and settlements, and have been present at the foundation of a first, second, and third state, succeeding one another in infinite time. And now there appears on the horizon a fourth state or nation which was once in process of settlement and has continued settled to this day. If, out of all this, we are able to discern what is well or ill settled, and what laws are the salvation and what are the destruction of cities, and what changes would make a state happy, O Megillus and Cleinias, we may now begin again, unless we have some fault to find with the previous discussion.
ATHENIAN: So, after straying from the original topic of laws into music and drinking parties, the conversation has, fortunately, circled back to the same point and gives us another angle to explore. We’ve reached the discussion about Lacedaemon, which, as you correctly noted, shares its laws and institutions with Crete. And this detour has actually benefited us because we've examined different governments and settlements, witnessing the establishment of a first, second, and third state, each following the other over endless time. Now, we see a fourth state or nation on the horizon that was once in the process of being established and has remained settled to this day. If we can figure out what is well-established or poorly established from all this, what laws are beneficial and what lead to the downfall of cities, and what changes would lead to a happy state, O Megillus and Cleinias, we can begin again, unless we have any issues with the previous discussion.
MEGILLUS: If some God, Stranger, would promise us that our new enquiry about legislation would be as good and full as the present, I would go a great way to hear such another, and would think that a day as long as this—and we are now approaching the longest day of the year—was too short for the discussion.
MEGILLUS: If a God, Stranger, were to promise us that our new exploration of legislation would be as good and complete as the current one, I would gladly travel far to hear it, and I would think that a day as long as this—and we are now nearing the longest day of the year—would be too short for the discussion.
ATHENIAN: Then I suppose that we must consider this subject?
ATHENIAN: So, I guess we need to discuss this topic?
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Let us place ourselves in thought at the moment when Lacedaemon and Argos and Messene and the rest of the Peloponnesus were all in complete subjection, Megillus, to your ancestors; for afterwards, as the legend informs us, they divided their army into three portions, and settled three cities, Argos, Messene, Lacedaemon.
ATHENIAN: Let's imagine the time when Lacedaemon, Argos, Messene, and the rest of the Peloponnesus were completely under the control of your ancestors, Megillus; because later, as the story goes, they split their army into three parts and established three cities: Argos, Messene, and Lacedaemon.
MEGILLUS: True.
MEGILLUS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Temenus was the king of Argos, Cresphontes of Messene, Procles and Eurysthenes of Lacedaemon.
ATHENIAN: Temenus was the king of Argos, Cresphontes of Messene, Procles and Eurysthenes of Lacedaemon.
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: To these kings all the men of that day made oath that they would assist them, if any one subverted their kingdom.
ATHENIAN: All the men of that time swore an oath to these kings that they would help them if anyone tried to overthrow their kingdom.
MEGILLUS: True.
MEGILLUS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But can a kingship be destroyed, or was any other form of government ever destroyed, by any but the rulers themselves? No indeed, by Zeus. Have we already forgotten what was said a little while ago?
ATHENIAN: But can a kingship be destroyed, or has any other form of government ever been destroyed, by anyone other than the rulers themselves? No way, by Zeus. Have we already forgotten what was said a little while ago?
MEGILLUS: No.
Nope.
ATHENIAN: And may we not now further confirm what was then mentioned? For we have come upon facts which have brought us back again to the same principle; so that, in resuming the discussion, we shall not be enquiring about an empty theory, but about events which actually happened. The case was as follows:—Three royal heroes made oath to three cities which were under a kingly government, and the cities to the kings, that both rulers and subjects should govern and be governed according to the laws which were common to all of them: the rulers promised that as time and the race went forward they would not make their rule more arbitrary; and the subjects said that, if the rulers observed these conditions, they would never subvert or permit others to subvert those kingdoms; the kings were to assist kings and peoples when injured, and the peoples were to assist peoples and kings in like manner. Is not this the fact?
ATHENIAN: Can we not now further confirm what was previously mentioned? We have come across facts that have brought us back to the same principle; so, in continuing the discussion, we won’t be questioning an empty theory, but rather events that actually took place. The situation was as follows: Three royal heroes swore an oath to three cities governed by kings, and the cities vowed to the kings that both rulers and subjects would govern and be governed according to the laws common to all of them: the rulers promised that as time passed and their lineage continued, they would not make their rule more tyrannical; and the subjects said that if the rulers upheld these conditions, they would never undermine or allow others to undermine those kingdoms; the kings were to support each other and their peoples when harmed, and the peoples were to support each other and the kings in the same way. Is that not the truth?
MEGILLUS: Yes.
MEGILLUS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: And the three states to whom these laws were given, whether their kings or any others were the authors of them, had therefore the greatest security for the maintenance of their constitutions?
ATHENIAN: So, the three states that received these laws, whether their kings or someone else created them, had the best guarantee for upholding their systems of government?
MEGILLUS: What security?
MEGILLUS: What protection?
ATHENIAN: That the other two states were always to come to the rescue against a rebellious third.
ATHENIAN: That the other two states would always come to the rescue of a rebellious third.
MEGILLUS: True.
MEGILLUS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Many persons say that legislators ought to impose such laws as the mass of the people will be ready to receive; but this is just as if one were to command gymnastic masters or physicians to treat or cure their pupils or patients in an agreeable manner.
ATHENIAN: Many people argue that lawmakers should create laws that the majority will be willing to accept; but this is like telling gym teachers or doctors to train or heal their students or patients in a way that's pleasing to them.
MEGILLUS: Exactly.
MEGILLUS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: Whereas the physician may often be too happy if he can restore health, and make the body whole, without any very great infliction of pain.
ATHENIAN: While the doctor might feel pretty good if he can bring back someone’s health and make their body complete, without causing too much pain.
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: There was also another advantage possessed by the men of that day, which greatly lightened the task of passing laws.
ATHENIAN: There was also another advantage that the men of that day had, which made the job of passing laws much easier.
MEGILLUS: What advantage?
What’s the advantage?
ATHENIAN: The legislators of that day, when they equalized property, escaped the great accusation which generally arises in legislation, if a person attempts to disturb the possession of land, or to abolish debts, because he sees that without this reform there can never be any real equality. Now, in general, when the legislator attempts to make a new settlement of such matters, every one meets him with the cry, that 'he is not to disturb vested interests,'—declaring with imprecations that he is introducing agrarian laws and cancelling of debts, until a man is at his wits' end; whereas no one could quarrel with the Dorians for distributing the land,—there was nothing to hinder them; and as for debts, they had none which were considerable or of old standing.
ATHENIAN: The lawmakers of that time, when they made property equal, avoided the major accusation that often comes up in legislation, which is that if someone tries to change land ownership or get rid of debts, it’s because they know that without these changes, true equality is impossible. Generally, when a legislator tries to reorganize these issues, everyone shouts that 'he shouldn't disturb established interests,' cursing him for introducing land redistribution and debt cancellation, leaving the man overwhelmed; yet no one could blame the Dorians for redistributing land—there was nothing stopping them, and they had no significant or long-standing debts.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: But then, my good friends, why did the settlement and legislation of their country turn out so badly?
ATHENIAN: But then, my good friends, why did the settlement and laws of their country end up so poorly?
MEGILLUS: How do you mean; and why do you blame them?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean, and why are you blaming them?
ATHENIAN: There were three kingdoms, and of these, two quickly corrupted their original constitution and laws, and the only one which remained was the Spartan.
ATHENIAN: There were three kingdoms, and of these, two quickly corrupted their original constitution and laws, and the only one that remained was the Spartan.
MEGILLUS: The question which you ask is not easily answered.
MEGILLUS: The question you're asking isn't easy to answer.
ATHENIAN: And yet must be answered when we are enquiring about laws, this being our old man's sober game of play, whereby we beguile the way, as I was saying when we first set out on our journey.
ATHENIAN: And we still have to respond when we're asking about laws, since this is our elder's serious form of play, through which we pass the time, as I mentioned when we first started our journey.
MEGILLUS: Certainly; and we must find out why this was.
MEGILLUS: Definitely; and we need to figure out why this happened.
ATHENIAN: What laws are more worthy of our attention than those which have regulated such cities? or what settlements of states are greater or more famous?
ATHENIAN: What laws deserve our attention more than those that have governed such cities? Or what state settlements are greater or more renowned?
MEGILLUS: I know of none.
MEGILLUS: I don't know any.
ATHENIAN: Can we doubt that your ancestors intended these institutions not only for the protection of Peloponnesus, but of all the Hellenes, in case they were attacked by the barbarian? For the inhabitants of the region about Ilium, when they provoked by their insolence the Trojan war, relied upon the power of the Assyrians and the Empire of Ninus, which still existed and had a great prestige; the people of those days fearing the united Assyrian Empire just as we now fear the Great King. And the second capture of Troy was a serious offence against them, because Troy was a portion of the Assyrian Empire. To meet the danger the single army was distributed between three cities by the royal brothers, sons of Heracles,—a fair device, as it seemed, and a far better arrangement than the expedition against Troy. For, firstly, the people of that day had, as they thought, in the Heraclidae better leaders than the Pelopidae; in the next place, they considered that their army was superior in valour to that which went against Troy; for, although the latter conquered the Trojans, they were themselves conquered by the Heraclidae—Achaeans by Dorians. May we not suppose that this was the intention with which the men of those days framed the constitutions of their states?
ATHENIAN: Can we really doubt that your ancestors designed these institutions not just to protect Peloponnesus, but all the Greeks, in case they were attacked by outsiders? The people around Ilium, when they instigated the Trojan War with their arrogance, relied on the strength of the Assyrians and the Empire of Ninus, which was still powerful and held great prestige; people back then feared the united Assyrian Empire just like we now fear the Great King. The second capture of Troy was a serious offense against them because Troy was part of the Assyrian Empire. To face this threat, the single army was divided among three cities by the royal brothers, the sons of Heracles—a reasonable strategy, it seemed, and much better than the expedition against Troy. First, people of that time believed that the Heraclidae were better leaders than the Pelopidae; secondly, they thought their army was braver than the one that fought against Troy; because, even though the latter defeated the Trojans, they themselves were defeated by the Heraclidae—Achaeans by Dorians. Can we not assume that this was the purpose behind how those people established the laws of their states?
MEGILLUS: Quite true.
MEGILLUS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: And would not men who had shared with one another many dangers, and were governed by a single race of royal brothers, and had taken the advice of oracles, and in particular of the Delphian Apollo, be likely to think that such states would be firmly and lastingly established?
ATHENIAN: Wouldn't men who have faced many dangers together, who are ruled by a single line of royal brothers, and who have sought the counsel of oracles, especially that of Delphian Apollo, likely believe that such states would be strong and enduring?
MEGILLUS: Of course they would.
MEGILLUS: Of course they will.
ATHENIAN: Yet these institutions, of which such great expectations were entertained, seem to have all rapidly vanished away; with the exception, as I was saying, of that small part of them which existed in your land. And this third part has never to this day ceased warring against the two others; whereas, if the original idea had been carried out, and they had agreed to be one, their power would have been invincible in war.
ATHENIAN: But these institutions, which held such high hopes, seem to have quickly disappeared, except for that small part that exists in your country. And this third part has never stopped fighting against the other two; however, if the original idea had been followed through and they had united, their strength in war would have been unbeatable.
MEGILLUS: No doubt.
MEGILLUS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But what was the ruin of this glorious confederacy? Here is a subject well worthy of consideration.
ATHENIAN: But what caused the downfall of this glorious alliance? This is definitely a topic worth examining.
MEGILLUS: Certainly, no one will ever find more striking instances of laws or governments being the salvation or destruction of great and noble interests, than are here presented to his view.
MEGILLUS: Definitely, no one will ever come across more striking examples of laws or governments being the saving grace or downfall of significant and noble interests than what is shown here.
ATHENIAN: Then now we seem to have happily arrived at a real and important question.
ATHENIAN: It looks like we've finally come to a real and important question.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: That's absolutely right.
ATHENIAN: Did you never remark, sage friend, that all men, and we ourselves at this moment, often fancy that they see some beautiful thing which might have effected wonders if any one had only known how to make a right use of it in some way; and yet this mode of looking at things may turn out after all to be a mistake, and not according to nature, either in our own case or in any other?
ATHENIAN: Have you ever noticed, wise friend, that everyone, including us right now, often believes they see something beautiful that could have achieved amazing things if someone had known how to use it properly? Yet, this way of viewing things might actually be wrong and not in line with reality, both in our situation and in others as well?
MEGILLUS: To what are you referring, and what do you mean?
MEGILLUS: What are you talking about, and what do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I was thinking of my own admiration of the aforesaid Heracleid expedition, which was so noble, and might have had such wonderful results for the Hellenes, if only rightly used; and I was just laughing at myself.
ATHENIAN: I was reflecting on my admiration for the aforementioned Heracleid expedition, which was so impressive and could have led to amazing outcomes for the Greeks, if only it had been utilized properly; and I found myself chuckling at my own thoughts.
MEGILLUS: But were you not right and wise in speaking as you did, and we in assenting to you?
MEGILLUS: But weren't you right and wise to say what you did, and we to agree with you?
ATHENIAN: Perhaps; and yet I cannot help observing that any one who sees anything great or powerful, immediately has the feeling that—'If the owner only knew how to use his great and noble possession, how happy would he be, and what great results would he achieve!'
ATHENIAN: Maybe; but I can't help noticing that anyone who witnesses something great or powerful instantly thinks, 'If the owner only knew how to make the most of their amazing possession, how happy they would be, and what incredible results they would achieve!'
MEGILLUS: And would he not be justified?
MEGILLUS: Wouldn't he be right?
ATHENIAN: Reflect; in what point of view does this sort of praise appear just: First, in reference to the question in hand:—If the then commanders had known how to arrange their army properly, how would they have attained success? Would not this have been the way? They would have bound them all firmly together and preserved them for ever, giving them freedom and dominion at pleasure, combined with the power of doing in the whole world, Hellenic and barbarian, whatever they and their descendants desired. What other aim would they have had?
ATHENIAN: Think about it; how is this kind of praise justified? First, regarding the question at hand: If the commanders back then had known how to organize their army properly, how would they have achieved success? Wouldn’t this have been the way? They would have united everyone tightly and kept them together forever, allowing them freedom and control at will, along with the power to do whatever they and their descendants wanted in the entire world, both Greek and non-Greek. What other goal would they have had?
MEGILLUS: Very good.
MEGILLUS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Suppose any one were in the same way to express his admiration at the sight of great wealth or family honour, or the like, he would praise them under the idea that through them he would attain either all or the greater and chief part of what he desires.
ATHENIAN: Imagine if someone were to show their admiration for great wealth or family honor, or something similar; they would praise these things thinking that through them they would achieve either everything or at least the most important part of what they want.
MEGILLUS: He would.
He definitely would.
ATHENIAN: Well, now, and does not the argument show that there is one common desire of all mankind?
ATHENIAN: So, does this argument not show that there’s a common desire for all humanity?
MEGILLUS: What is it?
MEGILLUS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: The desire which a man has, that all things, if possible,—at any rate, things human,—may come to pass in accordance with his soul's desire.
ATHENIAN: A man wishes that everything, if possible—at least, human things—aligns with the desires of his soul.
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: And having this desire always, and at every time of life, in youth, in manhood, in age, he cannot help always praying for the fulfilment of it.
ATHENIAN: And having this desire constantly, at every stage of life—in youth, in adulthood, in old age—he can't help but always pray for it to be fulfilled.
MEGILLUS: No doubt.
No question.
ATHENIAN: And we join in the prayers of our friends, and ask for them what they ask for themselves.
ATHENIAN: And we join in the prayers of our friends and wish for them what they wish for themselves.
MEGILLUS: We do.
We definitely do.
ATHENIAN: Dear is the son to the father—the younger to the elder.
ATHENIAN: A son is precious to his father—the younger to the older.
MEGILLUS: Of course.
MEGILLUS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: And yet the son often prays to obtain things which the father prays that he may not obtain.
ATHENIAN: And yet the son often prays for things that the father hopes he won't get.
MEGILLUS: When the son is young and foolish, you mean?
MEGILLUS: Are you talking about when the son is young and naïve?
ATHENIAN: Yes; or when the father, in the dotage of age or the heat of youth, having no sense of right and justice, prays with fervour, under the influence of feelings akin to those of Theseus when he cursed the unfortunate Hippolytus, do you imagine that the son, having a sense of right and justice, will join in his father's prayers?
ATHENIAN: Yes; or when the father, either in his old age or during a passionate time in his youth, lacking a sense of right and justice, fervently prays, influenced by feelings similar to those of Theseus when he cursed the unfortunate Hippolytus, do you think the son, who has a sense of right and justice, will go along with his father's prayers?
MEGILLUS: I understand you to mean that a man should not desire or be in a hurry to have all things according to his wish, for his wish may be at variance with his reason. But every state and every individual ought to pray and strive for wisdom.
MEGILLUS: I get what you’re saying—that a person shouldn’t rush to get everything they want, since their desires might not align with their judgment. However, every society and every person should seek wisdom and work towards it.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and I remember, and you will remember, what I said at first, that a statesman and legislator ought to ordain laws with a view to wisdom; while you were arguing that the good lawgiver ought to order all with a view to war. And to this I replied that there were four virtues, but that upon your view one of them only was the aim of legislation; whereas you ought to regard all virtue, and especially that which comes first, and is the leader of all the rest—I mean wisdom and mind and opinion, having affection and desire in their train. And now the argument returns to the same point, and I say once more, in jest if you like, or in earnest if you like, that the prayer of a fool is full of danger, being likely to end in the opposite of what he desires. And if you would rather receive my words in earnest, I am willing that you should; and you will find, I suspect, as I have said already, that not cowardice was the cause of the ruin of the Dorian kings and of their whole design, nor ignorance of military matters, either on the part of the rulers or of their subjects; but their misfortunes were due to their general degeneracy, and especially to their ignorance of the most important human affairs. That was then, and is still, and always will be the case, as I will endeavour, if you will allow me, to make out and demonstrate as well as I am able to you who are my friends, in the course of the argument.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and I remember, and you will remember, what I said at the beginning, that a statesman and legislator should create laws with an eye towards wisdom; while you argued that a good lawgiver should prioritize everything for the sake of war. I responded that there are four virtues, but according to your view, only one of them is the goal of legislation; whereas you should consider all virtues, especially the foremost one, which leads the rest—I mean wisdom, intellect, and informed judgment, accompanied by desire and emotion. Now the discussion comes back to the same point, and I reiterate, whether in jest or seriousness, that the prayer of a fool is fraught with danger, likely to result in just the opposite of what he seeks. If you'd prefer to take my words seriously, I am fine with that; and you will discover, as I've mentioned before, that the downfall of the Dorian kings and their entire plan was not due to cowardice or ignorance of military affairs, either from the rulers or their subjects. Their tragedies stemmed from their overall moral decline, particularly their lack of understanding of the most crucial human matters. That was true then, and it still holds today, and it always will, as I will try, if you allow me, to explain and demonstrate as clearly as I can to you, my friends, throughout this discussion.
CLEINIAS: Pray go on, Stranger;—compliments are troublesome, but we will show, not in word but in deed, how greatly we prize your words, for we will give them our best attention; and that is the way in which a freeman best shows his approval or disapproval.
CLEINIAS: Please continue, Stranger;—compliments can be annoying, but we’ll demonstrate, not just through words but through actions, how much we value what you say, as we will listen attentively; and that’s how a free person truly shows approval or disapproval.
MEGILLUS: Excellent, Cleinias; let us do as you say.
MEGILLUS: Great, Cleinias; let’s go with your suggestion.
CLEINIAS: By all means, if Heaven wills. Go on.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely, if that’s what Fate decides. Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, proceeding in the same train of thought, I say that the greatest ignorance was the ruin of the Dorian power, and that now, as then, ignorance is ruin. And if this be true, the legislator must endeavour to implant wisdom in states, and banish ignorance to the utmost of his power.
ATHENIAN: Alright, continuing along the same lines, I believe that the biggest lack of knowledge led to the downfall of the Dorian power, and that today, just like back then, ignorance leads to destruction. If this is the case, the lawmaker must work to instill wisdom in societies and drive ignorance away as much as possible.
CLEINIAS: That is evident.
CLEINIAS: That’s obvious.
ATHENIAN: Then now consider what is really the greatest ignorance. I should like to know whether you and Megillus would agree with me in what I am about to say; for my opinion is—
ATHENIAN: So now think about what true ignorance really is. I’d like to know if you and Megillus would agree with me on what I’m about to say; because my opinion is—
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: That the greatest ignorance is when a man hates that which he nevertheless thinks to be good and noble, and loves and embraces that which he knows to be unrighteous and evil. This disagreement between the sense of pleasure and the judgment of reason in the soul is, in my opinion, the worst ignorance; and also the greatest, because affecting the great mass of the human soul; for the principle which feels pleasure and pain in the individual is like the mass or populace in a state. And when the soul is opposed to knowledge, or opinion, or reason, which are her natural lords, that I call folly, just as in the state, when the multitude refuses to obey their rulers and the laws; or, again, in the individual, when fair reasonings have their habitation in the soul and yet do no good, but rather the reverse of good. All these cases I term the worst ignorance, whether in individuals or in states. You will understand, Stranger, that I am speaking of something which is very different from the ignorance of handicraftsmen.
ATHENIAN: The greatest ignorance is when a person hates what they believe to be good and noble and instead loves and embraces what they know to be wrong and evil. This conflict between the desire for pleasure and the judgment of reason in the soul is, in my view, the worst ignorance; and also the most significant, because it affects the vast majority of humanity. The part of us that feels pleasure and pain is like the masses in a society. When the soul goes against knowledge, opinion, or reason—her natural authorities—I call that foolishness, just as in society, when the masses refuse to follow their leaders and laws; or, in an individual, when sound reasoning resides in the soul but fails to do any good, instead causing harm. I consider all these situations the worst ignorance, whether in individuals or societies. You get what I mean, Stranger, that I’m talking about something very different from the ignorance of tradespeople.
CLEINIAS: Yes, my friend, we understand and agree.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, my friend, we get it and we're on the same page.
ATHENIAN: Let us, then, in the first place declare and affirm that the citizen who does not know these things ought never to have any kind of authority entrusted to him: he must be stigmatized as ignorant, even though he be versed in calculation and skilled in all sorts of accomplishments, and feats of mental dexterity; and the opposite are to be called wise, even although, in the words of the proverb, they know neither how to read nor how to swim; and to them, as to men of sense, authority is to be committed. For, O my friends, how can there be the least shadow of wisdom when there is no harmony? There is none; but the noblest and greatest of harmonies may be truly said to be the greatest wisdom; and of this he is a partaker who lives according to reason; whereas he who is devoid of reason is the destroyer of his house and the very opposite of a saviour of the state: he is utterly ignorant of political wisdom. Let this, then, as I was saying, be laid down by us.
ATHENIAN: So, first of all, let’s declare that a citizen who doesn’t know these things should never be given any kind of authority: they should be labeled as ignorant, even if they’re good at math and have all sorts of skills and mental tricks. On the flip side, those who may not know how to read or swim, as the saying goes, should be considered wise, and authority should be given to them as people of reason. Because, my friends, how can there be even a hint of wisdom without harmony? There can't be; the greatest and best harmony is truly the highest form of wisdom, and that belongs to someone who lives according to reason. In contrast, someone who lacks reason destroys their own home and is the complete opposite of a savior for the state: they are completely ignorant of political wisdom. Let’s agree on this, as I was saying.
CLEINIAS: Let it be so laid down.
CLEINIAS: Let's do that.
ATHENIAN: I suppose that there must be rulers and subjects in states?
ATHENIAN: I guess there have to be rulers and subjects in states?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And what are the principles on which men rule and obey in cities, whether great or small; and similarly in families? What are they, and how many in number? Is there not one claim of authority which is always just,—that of fathers and mothers and in general of progenitors to rule over their offspring?
ATHENIAN: So, what are the principles that guide how people rule and obey in cities, big or small, and in families? What exactly are they, and how many are there? Isn’t there one form of authority that is always just—that of parents and, generally, ancestors to have authority over their children?
CLEINIAS: There is.
CLEINIAS: There is.
ATHENIAN: Next follows the principle that the noble should rule over the ignoble; and, thirdly, that the elder should rule and the younger obey?
ATHENIAN: Next is the idea that the noble should govern the ignoble; and, third, that the older should lead and the younger should follow?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And, fourthly, that slaves should be ruled, and their masters rule?
ATHENIAN: And, fourthly, should slaves be ruled, and their masters in charge?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: Fifthly, if I am not mistaken, comes the principle that the stronger shall rule, and the weaker be ruled?
ATHENIAN: Fifthly, if I'm not mistaken, isn't there the principle that the stronger will rule and the weaker will be ruled?
CLEINIAS: That is a rule not to be disobeyed.
CLEINIAS: That’s a rule you shouldn’t break.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and a rule which prevails very widely among all creatures, and is according to nature, as the Theban poet Pindar once said; and the sixth principle, and the greatest of all, is, that the wise should lead and command, and the ignorant follow and obey; and yet, O thou most wise Pindar, as I should reply him, this surely is not contrary to nature, but according to nature, being the rule of law over willing subjects, and not a rule of compulsion.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and there's a rule that is commonly accepted among all beings, which aligns with nature, as the Theban poet Pindar once said. The sixth principle, and the most important of all, is that the wise should lead and direct, while the ignorant should follow and obey. And yet, O wise Pindar, as I would respond to him, this is not contrary to nature, but in accordance with nature, as it represents the rule of law over willing subjects, rather than a rule of force.
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: There is a seventh kind of rule which is awarded by lot, and is dear to the Gods and a token of good fortune: he on whom the lot falls is a ruler, and he who fails in obtaining the lot goes away and is the subject; and this we affirm to be quite just.
ATHENIAN: There's a seventh type of rule that's decided by drawing lots, and it's honored by the Gods and seen as a sign of good luck. The person chosen by the lot becomes the ruler, while the one who doesn't get picked leaves and becomes a subject; and we believe this is completely fair.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: 'Then now,' as we say playfully to any of those who lightly undertake the making of laws, 'you see, legislator, the principles of government, how many they are, and that they are naturally opposed to each other. There we have discovered a fountain-head of seditions, to which you must attend. And, first, we will ask you to consider with us, how and in what respect the kings of Argos and Messene violated these our maxims, and ruined themselves and the great and famous Hellenic power of the olden time. Was it because they did not know how wisely Hesiod spoke when he said that the half is often more than the whole? His meaning was, that when to take the whole would be dangerous, and to take the half would be the safe and moderate course, then the moderate or better was more than the immoderate or worse.'
ATHENIAN: 'So now,' as we jokingly say to those who casually try to create laws, 'you see, legislator, the principles of government, how many there are, and that they naturally oppose each other. We've found a source of unrest that you need to pay attention to. First, let's ask you to think about how and in what ways the kings of Argos and Messene violated our maxims and brought about their own downfall, along with the great and renowned Hellenic power of ancient times. Was it because they didn’t understand what Hesiod wisely said when he stated that sometimes half is more than the whole? What he meant was that when taking the whole would be risky, taking half would be the safer and more moderate choice; thus, the moderate or better option was greater than the immoderate or worse one.'
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And may we suppose this immoderate spirit to be more fatal when found among kings than when among peoples?
ATHENIAN: Can we assume that this excessive spirit is more dangerous when found in kings than in the general population?
CLEINIAS: The probability is that ignorance will be a disorder especially prevalent among kings, because they lead a proud and luxurious life.
CLEINIAS: It's likely that ignorance will be especially common among kings, as they live a proud and extravagant lifestyle.
ATHENIAN: Is it not palpable that the chief aim of the kings of that time was to get the better of the established laws, and that they were not in harmony with the principles which they had agreed to observe by word and oath? This want of harmony may have had the appearance of wisdom, but was really, as we assert, the greatest ignorance, and utterly overthrew the whole empire by dissonance and harsh discord.
ATHENIAN: Isn't it obvious that the main goal of the kings back then was to outsmart the existing laws, and that they didn't align with the principles they had promised to uphold by word and oath? This disconnect may have seemed wise, but as we claim, it was actually the greatest ignorance, and it completely brought down the entire empire through conflict and harsh disagreement.
CLEINIAS: Very likely.
CLEINIAS: Most likely.
ATHENIAN: Good; and what measures ought the legislator to have then taken in order to avert this calamity? Truly there is no great wisdom in knowing, and no great difficulty in telling, after the evil has happened; but to have foreseen the remedy at the time would have taken a much wiser head than ours.
ATHENIAN: Good; so what actions should the lawmaker have taken to prevent this disaster? It's easy to know and even easier to say what should have been done after the problem has already occurred; but being able to foresee the solution at that moment would have required a much wiser mind than ours.
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: Any one who looks at what has occurred with you Lacedaemonians, Megillus, may easily know and may easily say what ought to have been done at that time.
ATHENIAN: Anyone who looks at what happened with you Lacedaemonians, Megillus, can easily see and easily say what should have been done back then.
MEGILLUS: Speak a little more clearly.
MEGILLUS: Can you speak a bit more clearly?
ATHENIAN: Nothing can be clearer than the observation which I am about to make.
ATHENIAN: Nothing could be clearer than the observation I'm about to make.
MEGILLUS: What is it?
MEGILLUS: What’s going on?
ATHENIAN: That if any one gives too great a power to anything, too large a sail to a vessel, too much food to the body, too much authority to the mind, and does not observe the mean, everything is overthrown, and, in the wantonness of excess, runs in the one case to disorders, and in the other to injustice, which is the child of excess. I mean to say, my dear friends, that there is no soul of man, young and irresponsible, who will be able to sustain the temptation of arbitrary power—no one who will not, under such circumstances, become filled with folly, that worst of diseases, and be hated by his nearest and dearest friends: when this happens his kingdom is undermined, and all his power vanishes from him. And great legislators who know the mean should take heed of the danger. As far as we can guess at this distance of time, what happened was as follows:—
ATHENIAN: If someone gives too much power to anything—like giving a ship too large a sail, feeding the body too much, or giving the mind too much authority—and doesn't find a balance, everything falls apart. Excess leads to chaos in one case and injustice in the other, which is born out of excess. I’m saying, my dear friends, that no young and reckless person can handle the temptation of unchecked power—no one can avoid becoming foolish, which is the worst kind of sickness, and end up being despised by their closest friends. When this happens, their authority crumbles, and all their power slips away. Great lawmakers who understand balance need to be mindful of this danger. From what we can guess from this distance of time, what happened was as follows:—
MEGILLUS: What?
MEGILLUS: What is it?
ATHENIAN: A God, who watched over Sparta, seeing into the future, gave you two families of kings instead of one; and thus brought you more within the limits of moderation. In the next place, some human wisdom mingled with divine power, observing that the constitution of your government was still feverish and excited, tempered your inborn strength and pride of birth with the moderation which comes of age, making the power of your twenty-eight elders equal with that of the kings in the most important matters. But your third saviour, perceiving that your government was still swelling and foaming, and desirous to impose a curb upon it, instituted the Ephors, whose power he made to resemble that of magistrates elected by lot; and by this arrangement the kingly office, being compounded of the right elements and duly moderated, was preserved, and was the means of preserving all the rest. Since, if there had been only the original legislators, Temenus, Cresphontes, and their contemporaries, as far as they were concerned not even the portion of Aristodemus would have been preserved; for they had no proper experience in legislation, or they would surely not have imagined that oaths would moderate a youthful spirit invested with a power which might be converted into a tyranny. Now that God has instructed us what sort of government would have been or will be lasting, there is no wisdom, as I have already said, in judging after the event; there is no difficulty in learning from an example which has already occurred. But if any one could have foreseen all this at the time, and had been able to moderate the government of the three kingdoms and unite them into one, he might have saved all the excellent institutions which were then conceived; and no Persian or any other armament would have dared to attack us, or would have regarded Hellas as a power to be despised.
ATHENIAN: A God, who looked over Sparta and could see the future, gave you two royal families instead of one, bringing you closer to balance. Additionally, some human wisdom mixed with divine power noticed that your government was still restless and chaotic, and tempered your natural strength and pride of lineage with the maturity that comes with age, making the authority of your twenty-eight elders equal to that of the kings in crucial matters. But your third savior, realizing that your government was still overflowing and turbulent, wanted to put a limit on it and established the Ephors, whose authority was similar to that of randomly elected magistrates; this setup helped preserve the royal office, balancing the right elements properly and ensuring the stability of everything else. If there had only been the original lawmakers, Temenus, Cresphontes, and their peers, then not even the legacy of Aristodemus would have remained, because they lacked the necessary experience in legislation, otherwise they wouldn’t have thought that oaths would control a youthful spirit empowered enough to become tyrannical. Now that God has taught us what kind of government would be enduring, there’s no wisdom, as I mentioned earlier, in judging after the fact; it’s easy to learn from examples that have already happened. However, if someone had been able to foresee all this at the time and could have moderated the governance of the three kingdoms to unite them, he could have preserved all the great institutions that were then envisioned; and no Persian or other military force would have dared to challenge us or regarded Hellas as a weak power.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: There was small credit to us, Cleinias, in defeating them; and the discredit was, not that the conquerors did not win glorious victories both by land and sea, but what, in my opinion, brought discredit was, first of all, the circumstance that of the three cities one only fought on behalf of Hellas, and the two others were so utterly good for nothing that the one was waging a mighty war against Lacedaemon, and was thus preventing her from rendering assistance, while the city of Argos, which had the precedence at the time of the distribution, when asked to aid in repelling the barbarian, would not answer to the call, or give aid. Many things might be told about Hellas in connexion with that war which are far from honourable; nor, indeed, can we rightly say that Hellas repelled the invader; for the truth is, that unless the Athenians and Lacedaemonians, acting in concert, had warded off the impending yoke, all the tribes of Hellas would have been fused in a chaos of Hellenes mingling with one another, of barbarians mingling with Hellenes, and Hellenes with barbarians; just as nations who are now subject to the Persian power, owing to unnatural separations and combinations of them, are dispersed and scattered, and live miserably. These, Cleinias and Megillus, are the reproaches which we have to make against statesmen and legislators, as they are called, past and present, if we would analyse the causes of their failure, and find out what else might have been done. We said, for instance, just now, that there ought to be no great and unmixed powers; and this was under the idea that a state ought to be free and wise and harmonious, and that a legislator ought to legislate with a view to this end. Nor is there any reason to be surprised at our continually proposing aims for the legislator which appear not to be always the same; but we should consider when we say that temperance is to be the aim, or wisdom is to be the aim, or friendship is to be the aim, that all these aims are really the same; and if so, a variety in the modes of expression ought not to disturb us.
ATHENIAN: There’s little credit for us, Cleinias, in having defeated them; and the discredit comes not from the fact that the conquerors achieved glorious victories both on land and at sea, but rather from the fact that only one of the three cities fought for Hellas, while the other two were completely unhelpful. One was engaged in a serious war against Lacedaemon, preventing it from providing support, and the city of Argos, which was supposed to take the lead during the distribution, refused to assist when called upon to help repel the barbarian. There are many dishonorable things that could be said about Hellas in relation to that war; indeed, we cannot truly claim that Hellas drove back the invader. The reality is that without the Athenians and Lacedaemonians working together to fend off the looming threat, all the tribes of Hellas would have been thrown into a chaotic mix of Hellenes and barbarians, just like the nations currently under Persian rule, scattered and living poorly due to unnatural divisions and combinations. These, Cleinias and Megillus, are the criticisms we must level at politicians and lawmakers—both past and present—if we want to analyze the reasons for their failures and identify what else could have been done. For example, we just noted that there shouldn’t be any large, single powers; this was based on the view that a state should be free, wise, and harmonious, and that legislators should aim for this outcome. It’s no surprise, then, that we keep suggesting different goals for legislators that might not always seem consistent. However, it’s important to recognize that when we say temperance, wisdom, or friendship should be the goal, these aims are essentially the same, and so variations in how we express them shouldn’t confuse us.
CLEINIAS: Let us resume the argument in that spirit. And now, speaking of friendship and wisdom and freedom, I wish that you would tell me at what, in your opinion, the legislator should aim.
CLEINIAS: Let’s pick up the discussion with that mindset. Now, when we talk about friendship, wisdom, and freedom, I’d like you to share what you think the legislator should focus on.
ATHENIAN: Hear me, then: there are two mother forms of states from which the rest may be truly said to be derived; and one of them may be called monarchy and the other democracy: the Persians have the highest form of the one, and we of the other; almost all the rest, as I was saying, are variations of these. Now, if you are to have liberty and the combination of friendship with wisdom, you must have both these forms of government in a measure; the argument emphatically declares that no city can be well governed which is not made up of both.
ATHENIAN: Listen to me: there are two primary types of states that the others can be considered to come from; one is called monarchy and the other democracy. The Persians have the most advanced version of monarchy, while we have the best version of democracy; nearly all other systems, as I mentioned, are variations of these. Now, if you want to have freedom and a blend of friendship with wisdom, you need to incorporate both of these government types to some extent; the argument clearly states that no city can be well governed without having both.
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: Neither the one, if it be exclusively and excessively attached to monarchy, nor the other, if it be similarly attached to freedom, observes moderation; but your states, the Laconian and Cretan, have more of it; and the same was the case with the Athenians and Persians of old time, but now they have less. Shall I tell you why?
ATHENIAN: Neither one, if it's completely and excessively devoted to monarchy, nor the other, if it's equally devoted to freedom, practices moderation. However, your states, the Laconian and Cretan, have more of it; the same was true for the Athenians and Persians in the past, but now they have less. Should I explain why?
CLEINIAS: By all means, if it will tend to elucidate our subject.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, if it will help clarify our topic.
ATHENIAN: Hear, then:—There was a time when the Persians had more of the state which is a mean between slavery and freedom. In the reign of Cyrus they were freemen and also lords of many others: the rulers gave a share of freedom to the subjects, and being treated as equals, the soldiers were on better terms with their generals, and showed themselves more ready in the hour of danger. And if there was any wise man among them, who was able to give good counsel, he imparted his wisdom to the public; for the king was not jealous, but allowed him full liberty of speech, and gave honour to those who could advise him in any matter. And the nation waxed in all respects, because there was freedom and friendship and communion of mind among them.
ATHENIAN: Listen up: there was a time when the Persians experienced a balance between slavery and freedom. During Cyrus's reign, they were free people and also lords over many others: the rulers granted some freedom to their subjects, and since they were treated as equals, the soldiers had better relationships with their generals, making them more willing to step up in times of danger. If there was any wise person among them who could offer good advice, he would share his insights with everyone; the king wasn’t jealous but welcomed his input and respected those who could advise him on various matters. The nation flourished in every way because there was freedom, camaraderie, and a shared sense of purpose among them.
CLEINIAS: That certainly appears to have been the case.
CLEINIAS: That definitely seems to have been true.
ATHENIAN: How, then, was this advantage lost under Cambyses, and again recovered under Darius? Shall I try to divine?
ATHENIAN: So, how was this advantage lost under Cambyses and then regained under Darius? Should I take a guess?
CLEINIAS: The enquiry, no doubt, has a bearing upon our subject.
CLEINIAS: The inquiry, for sure, relates to our topic.
ATHENIAN: I imagine that Cyrus, though a great and patriotic general, had never given his mind to education, and never attended to the order of his household.
ATHENIAN: I think that Cyrus, even though he was a great and patriotic general, never focused on education and never managed his household properly.
CLEINIAS: What makes you say so?
CLEINIAS: Why do you say that?
ATHENIAN: I think that from his youth upwards he was a soldier, and entrusted the education of his children to the women; and they brought them up from their childhood as the favourites of fortune, who were blessed already, and needed no more blessings. They thought that they were happy enough, and that no one should be allowed to oppose them in any way, and they compelled every one to praise all that they said or did. This was how they brought them up.
ATHENIAN: I believe that from a young age he was a soldier and left the education of his kids to the women. They raised them from childhood as if they were favorites of fate, already blessed and needing nothing more. They thought they were happy enough and believed no one should dare to oppose them in any way. They made everyone praise everything they said or did. That’s how they were raised.
CLEINIAS: A splendid education truly!
CLEINIAS: A great education indeed!
ATHENIAN: Such an one as women were likely to give them, and especially princesses who had recently grown rich, and in the absence of the men, too, who were occupied in wars and dangers, and had no time to look after them.
ATHENIAN: Someone like the women who were likely to give birth to them, especially princesses who had recently become wealthy, and also in the absence of the men who were busy with wars and dangers, and had no time to look after them.
CLEINIAS: What would you expect?
CLEINIAS: What do you expect?
ATHENIAN: Their father had possessions of cattle and sheep, and many herds of men and other animals, but he did not consider that those to whom he was about to make them over were not trained in his own calling, which was Persian; for the Persians are shepherds—sons of a rugged land, which is a stern mother, and well fitted to produce a sturdy race able to live in the open air and go without sleep, and also to fight, if fighting is required (compare Arist. Pol.). He did not observe that his sons were trained differently; through the so-called blessing of being royal they were educated in the Median fashion by women and eunuchs, which led to their becoming such as people do become when they are brought up unreproved. And so, after the death of Cyrus, his sons, in the fulness of luxury and licence, took the kingdom, and first one slew the other because he could not endure a rival; and, afterwards, the slayer himself, mad with wine and brutality, lost his kingdom through the Medes and the Eunuch, as they called him, who despised the folly of Cambyses.
ATHENIAN: Their father owned cattle and sheep, along with many herds of people and other animals, but he didn’t realize that the ones he was about to pass them on to weren’t trained in his own profession, which was Persian; because Persians are shepherds—children of a harsh land, which is a tough mother, well-suited to produce a resilient race capable of living outdoors, going without sleep, and also fighting when necessary (compare Arist. Pol.). He failed to notice that his sons were raised differently; due to the so-called blessing of royalty, they were educated in the Median way by women and eunuchs, which caused them to become like those who grow up without discipline. And so, after Cyrus died, his sons, living in extreme luxury and indulgence, took over the kingdom, and first one killed the other because he couldn't stand having a rival; and later, the killer himself, driven mad by wine and violence, lost his kingdom to the Medes and the Eunuch, as they called him, who looked down on Cambyses' foolishness.
CLEINIAS: So runs the tale, and such probably were the facts.
CLEINIAS: That’s how the story goes, and that’s likely how things were.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and the tradition says, that the empire came back to the Persians, through Darius and the seven chiefs.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and the story goes that the empire returned to the Persians, thanks to Darius and the seven leaders.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Let us note the rest of the story. Observe, that Darius was not the son of a king, and had not received a luxurious education. When he came to the throne, being one of the seven, he divided the country into seven portions, and of this arrangement there are some shadowy traces still remaining; he made laws upon the principle of introducing universal equality in the order of the state, and he embodied in his laws the settlement of the tribute which Cyrus promised,—thus creating a feeling of friendship and community among all the Persians, and attaching the people to him with money and gifts. Hence his armies cheerfully acquired for him countries as large as those which Cyrus had left behind him. Darius was succeeded by his son Xerxes; and he again was brought up in the royal and luxurious fashion. Might we not most justly say: 'O Darius, how came you to bring up Xerxes in the same way in which Cyrus brought up Cambyses, and not to see his fatal mistake?' For Xerxes, being the creation of the same education, met with much the same fortune as Cambyses; and from that time until now there has never been a really great king among the Persians, although they are all called Great. And their degeneracy is not to be attributed to chance, as I maintain; the reason is rather the evil life which is generally led by the sons of very rich and royal persons; for never will boy or man, young or old, excel in virtue, who has been thus educated. And this, I say, is what the legislator has to consider, and what at the present moment has to be considered by us. Justly may you, O Lacedaemonians, be praised, in that you do not give special honour or a special education to wealth rather than to poverty, or to a royal rather than to a private station, where the divine and inspired lawgiver has not originally commanded them to be given. For no man ought to have pre-eminent honour in a state because he surpasses others in wealth, any more than because he is swift of foot or fair or strong, unless he have some virtue in him; nor even if he have virtue, unless he have this particular virtue of temperance.
ATHENIAN: Let's talk about the rest of the story. Notice that Darius was not born a king and didn’t have a privileged upbringing. When he ascended to the throne as one of the seven, he divided the country into seven parts, and traces of that division still exist today. He created laws aimed at establishing equality in the state and included in his laws the tribute arrangement promised by Cyrus, fostering a sense of friendship and community among all Persians and endearing the people to him with money and gifts. As a result, his armies happily conquered territories as vast as those left to him by Cyrus. Darius was succeeded by his son Xerxes, who was raised in lavish royal style. Can we not rightly ask: ‘O Darius, how did you raise Xerxes in the same way Cyrus raised Cambyses, without recognizing the disastrous mistake?’ Xerxes, shaped by the same upbringing, faced a fate similar to Cambyses. Since then, there has never been a truly great king among the Persians, despite them all being called Great. Their decline isn’t just random; it stems from the poor lives often led by the children of the very wealthy and royal. No boy or man, young or old, will excel in virtue if raised that way. This is something lawmakers need to consider, and it's what we need to reflect on today. You, O Lacedaemonians, deserve praise for not giving special honor or education to wealth over poverty or to royalty over common people, where divine and inspired law doesn’t originally dictate it. A person shouldn’t receive special privilege in a state just because they are richer than others, any more than because they are fast or attractive or strong, unless they possess some virtue; nor should they be honored even if they have virtue unless they specifically have the virtue of temperance.
MEGILLUS: What do you mean, Stranger?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean, stranger?
ATHENIAN: I suppose that courage is a part of virtue?
ATHENIAN: I guess courage is a part of virtue?
MEGILLUS: To be sure.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Then, now hear and judge for yourself:—Would you like to have for a fellow-lodger or neighbour a very courageous man, who had no control over himself?
ATHENIAN: So, listen and decide for yourself: Would you want to have as a roommate or neighbor a very brave person who couldn't control themselves?
MEGILLUS: Heaven forbid!
No way!
ATHENIAN: Or an artist, who was clever in his profession, but a rogue?
ATHENIAN: Or an artist who was skilled at his craft but also a con artist?
MEGILLUS: Certainly not.
Absolutely not.
ATHENIAN: And surely justice does not grow apart from temperance?
ATHENIAN: And surely justice doesn't exist without temperance?
MEGILLUS: Impossible.
MEGILLUS: No way.
ATHENIAN: Any more than our pattern wise man, whom we exhibited as having his pleasures and pains in accordance with and corresponding to true reason, can be intemperate?
ATHENIAN: Can our model wise man, who we showed as having his pleasures and pains aligned with true reason, be intemperate?
MEGILLUS: No.
No.
ATHENIAN: There is a further consideration relating to the due and undue award of honours in states.
ATHENIAN: There's another point to think about regarding the fair and unfair awarding of honors in states.
MEGILLUS: What is it?
MEGILLUS: What's up?
ATHENIAN: I should like to know whether temperance without the other virtues, existing alone in the soul of man, is rightly to be praised or blamed?
ATHENIAN: I’d like to know if temperance, when it exists alone in a person's soul without the other virtues, should be praised or criticized?
MEGILLUS: I cannot tell.
MEGILLUS: I can't say.
ATHENIAN: And that is the best answer; for whichever alternative you had chosen, I think that you would have gone wrong.
ATHENIAN: That's the best answer; no matter which option you picked, I believe you would have made a mistake.
MEGILLUS: I am fortunate.
MEGILLUS: I'm lucky.
ATHENIAN: Very good; a quality, which is a mere appendage of things which can be praised or blamed, does not deserve an expression of opinion, but is best passed over in silence.
ATHENIAN: That's true; a quality that is just an add-on to things that can be praised or criticized doesn’t deserve an opinion, and it's better left unsaid.
MEGILLUS: You are speaking of temperance?
MEGILLUS: Are you talking about self-control?
ATHENIAN: Yes; but of the other virtues, that which having this appendage is also most beneficial, will be most deserving of honour, and next that which is beneficial in the next degree; and so each of them will be rightly honoured according to a regular order.
ATHENIAN: Yes; but among the other virtues, the one that comes with this extra quality and is also the most beneficial will be the most worthy of honor, followed by the one that is beneficial to a lesser extent; and so each of them will be appropriately honored in a proper order.
MEGILLUS: True.
MEGILLUS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And ought not the legislator to determine these classes?
ATHENIAN: Shouldn't the legislator define these classes?
MEGILLUS: Certainly he should.
MEGILLUS: Of course he should.
ATHENIAN: Suppose that we leave to him the arrangement of details. But the general division of laws according to their importance into a first and second and third class, we who are lovers of law may make ourselves.
ATHENIAN: Let's say we let him handle the details. However, we who appreciate the law can categorize it generally by importance into first, second, and third classes.
MEGILLUS: Very good.
MEGILLUS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: We maintain, then, that a State which would be safe and happy, as far as the nature of man allows, must and ought to distribute honour and dishonour in the right way. And the right way is to place the goods of the soul first and highest in the scale, always assuming temperance to be the condition of them; and to assign the second place to the goods of the body; and the third place to money and property. And if any legislator or state departs from this rule by giving money the place of honour, or in any way preferring that which is really last, may we not say, that he or the state is doing an unholy and unpatriotic thing?
ATHENIAN: We assert that a State aiming for safety and happiness, as much as human nature allows, must and should distribute honor and dishonor appropriately. The appropriate way is to prioritize the goods of the soul first and foremost, always considering that temperance is essential for them; then, give second place to the goods of the body; and third place to money and property. If any legislator or state strays from this guideline by placing money at the top or favoring what should actually be last, can we not say that they, or the state, are acting in an unholy and unpatriotic manner?
MEGILLUS: Yes; let that be plainly declared.
MEGILLUS: Yes; let's make that clear.
ATHENIAN: The consideration of the Persian governments led us thus far to enlarge. We remarked that the Persians grew worse and worse. And we affirm the reason of this to have been, that they too much diminished the freedom of the people, and introduced too much of despotism, and so destroyed friendship and community of feeling. And when there is an end of these, no longer do the governors govern on behalf of their subjects or of the people, but on behalf of themselves; and if they think that they can gain ever so small an advantage for themselves, they devastate cities, and send fire and desolation among friendly races. And as they hate ruthlessly and horribly, so are they hated; and when they want the people to fight for them, they find no community of feeling or willingness to risk their lives on their behalf; their untold myriads are useless to them on the field of battle, and they think that their salvation depends on the employment of mercenaries and strangers whom they hire, as if they were in want of more men. And they cannot help being stupid, since they proclaim by their actions that the ordinary distinctions of right and wrong which are made in a state are a trifle, when compared with gold and silver.
ATHENIAN: We've explored the Persian governments and noticed a troubling trend. The Persians have been getting progressively worse. We believe this decline stems from their excessive oppression of the people's freedom and the rise of despotism, leading to a breakdown of friendship and shared feelings. When these bonds vanish, the leaders stop governing for the benefit of their subjects and start acting in their own interest; if they see any opportunity for personal gain, they devastate cities and bring destruction upon friendly societies. Their ruthless hatred breeds the same in return, and when they need the people's support in battle, they find no sense of solidarity or willingness for sacrifice among them. Their countless numbers are ineffective in combat, and they mistakenly think their safety relies on hiring mercenaries and outsiders, as if they need more soldiers. Their foolishness is evident, as their actions show that they regard the usual distinctions of right and wrong in a state as insignificant compared to wealth.
MEGILLUS: Quite true.
MEGILLUS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: And now enough of the Persians, and their present mal-administration of their government, which is owing to the excess of slavery and despotism among them.
ATHENIAN: And now let's move on from the Persians and their current poor governance, which is the result of too much slavery and tyranny among them.
MEGILLUS: Good.
MEGILLUS: Great.
ATHENIAN: Next, we must pass in review the government of Attica in like manner, and from this show that entire freedom and the absence of all superior authority is not by any means so good as government by others when properly limited, which was our ancient Athenian constitution at the time when the Persians made their attack on Hellas, or, speaking more correctly, on the whole continent of Europe. There were four classes, arranged according to a property census, and reverence was our queen and mistress, and made us willing to live in obedience to the laws which then prevailed. Also the vastness of the Persian armament, both by sea and on land, caused a helpless terror, which made us more and more the servants of our rulers and of the laws; and for all these reasons an exceeding harmony prevailed among us. About ten years before the naval engagement at Salamis, Datis came, leading a Persian host by command of Darius, which was expressly directed against the Athenians and Eretrians, having orders to carry them away captive; and these orders he was to execute under pain of death. Now Datis and his myriads soon became complete masters of Eretria, and he sent a fearful report to Athens that no Eretrian had escaped him; for the soldiers of Datis had joined hands and netted the whole of Eretria. And this report, whether well or ill founded, was terrible to all the Hellenes, and above all to the Athenians, and they dispatched embassies in all directions, but no one was willing to come to their relief, with the exception of the Lacedaemonians; and they, either because they were detained by the Messenian war, which was then going on, or for some other reason of which we are not told, came a day too late for the battle of Marathon. After a while, the news arrived of mighty preparations being made, and innumerable threats came from the king. Then, as time went on, a rumour reached us that Darius had died, and that his son, who was young and hot-headed, had come to the throne and was persisting in his design. The Athenians were under the impression that the whole expedition was directed against them, in consequence of the battle of Marathon; and hearing of the bridge over the Hellespont, and the canal of Athos, and the host of ships, considering that there was no salvation for them either by land or by sea, for there was no one to help them, and remembering that in the first expedition, when the Persians destroyed Eretria, no one came to their help, or would risk the danger of an alliance with them, they thought that this would happen again, at least on land; nor, when they looked to the sea, could they descry any hope of salvation; for they were attacked by a thousand vessels and more. One chance of safety remained, slight indeed and desperate, but their only one. They saw that on the former occasion they had gained a seemingly impossible victory, and borne up by this hope, they found that their only refuge was in themselves and in the Gods. All these things created in them the spirit of friendship; there was the fear of the moment, and there was that higher fear, which they had acquired by obedience to their ancient laws, and which I have several times in the preceding discourse called reverence, of which the good man ought to be a willing servant, and of which the coward is independent and fearless. If this fear had not possessed them, they would never have met the enemy, or defended their temples and sepulchres and their country, and everything that was near and dear to them, as they did; but little by little they would have been all scattered and dispersed.
ATHENIAN: Next, we should take a look at the government of Attica in the same way and show that complete freedom and lack of any higher authority is not as beneficial as being governed by others when it’s properly limited, which reflects our ancient Athenian constitution during the time when the Persians attacked Hellas, or more accurately, the entire continent of Europe. There were four classes based on a property census, and reverence was our guiding principle, making us willing to obey the laws that were in effect at the time. Moreover, the sheer size of the Persian forces, both at sea and on land, instilled a deep fear in us, increasing our submission to our leaders and the laws; for all these reasons, there was great harmony among us. About ten years before the naval battle at Salamis, Datis led a Persian army on orders from Darius, specifically targeting the Athenians and Eretrians, with instructions to capture them; failure to do so would result in death. Datis and his massive army quickly took control of Eretria, and he sent a terrifying report to Athens claiming that no Eretrian had escaped, as his soldiers had completely surrounded the city. This report, regardless of its accuracy, was frightening to all the Greeks, especially the Athenians, who sent envoys everywhere, but no one was willing to come to their aid except the Lacedaemonians; they arrived a day too late for the Battle of Marathon, likely due to being engaged in the ongoing Messenian war, or for some other undisclosed reason. Eventually, news came of the significant preparations being made, accompanied by countless threats from the king. Over time, we heard a rumor that Darius had died and that his young, impulsive son had ascended the throne and was still bent on carrying out his plans. The Athenians believed the entire expedition was aimed at them due to the Battle of Marathon; upon hearing about the bridge over the Hellespont, the canal of Athos, and the multitude of ships, they felt hopeless, with no one to assist them, recalling that in the first expedition when the Persians took Eretria, no one came to their aid, nor would anyone risk forming an alliance with them. They feared a repeat of this, at least on land; and when they looked at the sea, they saw no glimmer of hope for salvation, surrounded by a thousand ships or more. One slim chance of safety remained, albeit desperate, and it was their only option. They remembered their seemingly impossible victory from before, and encouraged by that hope, they realized their only refuge was themselves and the Gods. All these factors fostered a spirit of camaraderie among them; they felt the immediate fear of the situation and also the deeper reverence they had developed through their obedience to ancient laws—something that a good person serves willingly, while a coward feels free from obligation. If this reverence had not possessed them, they would have never faced the enemy or defended their temples, graves, and homeland, or everything else that was precious to them; instead, they would have slowly scattered and dispersed.
MEGILLUS: Your words, Athenian, are quite true, and worthy of yourself and of your country.
MEGILLUS: What you say, Athenian, is absolutely true, and reflects well on you and your country.
ATHENIAN: They are true, Megillus; and to you, who have inherited the virtues of your ancestors, I may properly speak of the actions of that day. And I would wish you and Cleinias to consider whether my words have not also a bearing on legislation; for I am not discoursing only for the pleasure of talking, but for the argument's sake. Please to remark that the experience both of ourselves and the Persians was, in a certain sense, the same; for as they led their people into utter servitude, so we too led ours into all freedom. And now, how shall we proceed? for I would like you to observe that our previous arguments have good deal to say for themselves.
ATHENIAN: That's true, Megillus; and since you've inherited the virtues of your ancestors, I can properly discuss the events of that day with you. I hope you and Cleinias will consider whether my words also matter for legislation; I'm not just talking for the sake of it, but to make a point. Notice that our experience and that of the Persians were quite similar; they led their people into total subjugation, while we led ours into complete freedom. So now, how should we move forward? I want you to see that our previous arguments have a lot of merit.
MEGILLUS: True; but I wish that you would give us a fuller explanation.
MEGILLUS: That's true, but I wish you would explain it to us in more detail.
ATHENIAN: I will. Under the ancient laws, my friends, the people was not as now the master, but rather the willing servant of the laws.
ATHENIAN: I will. According to the old laws, my friends, the people were not the masters as they are now, but rather the willing servants of the laws.
MEGILLUS: What laws do you mean?
MEGILLUS: Which laws are you referring to?
ATHENIAN: In the first place, let us speak of the laws about music,—that is to say, such music as then existed—in order that we may trace the growth of the excess of freedom from the beginning. Now music was early divided among us into certain kinds and manners. One sort consisted of prayers to the Gods, which were called hymns; and there was another and opposite sort called lamentations, and another termed paeans, and another, celebrating the birth of Dionysus, called, I believe, 'dithyrambs.' And they used the actual word 'laws,' or nomoi, for another kind of song; and to this they added the term 'citharoedic.' All these and others were duly distinguished, nor were the performers allowed to confuse one style of music with another. And the authority which determined and gave judgment, and punished the disobedient, was not expressed in a hiss, nor in the most unmusical shouts of the multitude, as in our days, nor in applause and clapping of hands. But the directors of public instruction insisted that the spectators should listen in silence to the end; and boys and their tutors, and the multitude in general, were kept quiet by a hint from a stick. Such was the good order which the multitude were willing to observe; they would never have dared to give judgment by noisy cries. And then, as time went on, the poets themselves introduced the reign of vulgar and lawless innovation. They were men of genius, but they had no perception of what is just and lawful in music; raging like Bacchanals and possessed with inordinate delights—mingling lamentations with hymns, and paeans with dithyrambs; imitating the sounds of the flute on the lyre, and making one general confusion; ignorantly affirming that music has no truth, and, whether good or bad, can only be judged of rightly by the pleasure of the hearer (compare Republic). And by composing such licentious works, and adding to them words as licentious, they have inspired the multitude with lawlessness and boldness, and made them fancy that they can judge for themselves about melody and song. And in this way the theatres from being mute have become vocal, as though they had understanding of good and bad in music and poetry; and instead of an aristocracy, an evil sort of theatrocracy has grown up (compare Arist. Pol.). For if the democracy which judged had only consisted of educated persons, no fatal harm would have been done; but in music there first arose the universal conceit of omniscience and general lawlessness;—freedom came following afterwards, and men, fancying that they knew what they did not know, had no longer any fear, and the absence of fear begets shamelessness. For what is this shamelessness, which is so evil a thing, but the insolent refusal to regard the opinion of the better by reason of an over-daring sort of liberty?
ATHENIAN: First, let’s talk about the laws regarding music—specifically, the types of music that existed back then—so we can trace how the growing excess of freedom began. Music was early classified into different kinds and styles. One type included prayers to the Gods, which we called hymns; there was another completely opposite type known as lamentations, and another called paeans, as well as a style celebrating the birth of Dionysus, which I think were called 'dithyrambs.' They used the actual word 'laws,' or nomoi, for another kind of song, which they also referred to as 'citharoedic.' All these, and others, were clearly defined, and performers were not allowed to mix one style with another. The authority that determined, judged, and punished those who disobeyed was not expressed through hissing, or the most unmusical shouts of the crowd, like today, nor in applause and clapping of hands. Instead, the public instructors insisted that the audience should listen in silence until the end; boys, their tutors, and the general crowd were kept quiet with a little nudge from a stick. Such was the good order that the crowd was willing to follow; they would never have dared to pass judgment with loud cries. Over time, however, the poets themselves brought in a wave of vulgar and lawless innovation. They were talented individuals, but they lacked an understanding of what is just and lawful in music; like Bacchanals, they were possessed by excessive pleasures—mixing lamentations with hymns, and paeans with dithyrambs; imitating the sounds of the flute with the lyre, creating a general chaos; foolishly claiming that music has no truth, and that whether it’s good or bad can only be judged by the listener's enjoyment (compare Republic). By creating such indecent works and pairing them with equally indecent lyrics, they inspired the crowd with lawlessness and boldness, leading them to believe they could judge melody and song for themselves. In this way, theaters went from being silent to being vocal, as if they had an understanding of what is good and bad in music and poetry; and instead of an aristocracy, a harmful kind of theatrocracy emerged (compare Arist. Pol.). If the judging democracy consisted only of educated people, no serious harm would have come from it; but in music, this universal arrogance of total understanding and widespread lawlessness first emerged—freedom followed thereafter, and people, believing they knew what they did not, lost all fear, and the absence of fear breeds shamelessness. For what is this shamelessness, which is so evil, but the bold refusal to consider the opinions of the wiser due to an overly daring kind of freedom?
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Consequent upon this freedom comes the other freedom, of disobedience to rulers (compare Republic); and then the attempt to escape the control and exhortation of father, mother, elders, and when near the end, the control of the laws also; and at the very end there is the contempt of oaths and pledges, and no regard at all for the Gods,—herein they exhibit and imitate the old so-called Titanic nature, and come to the same point as the Titans when they rebelled against God, leading a life of endless evils. But why have I said all this? I ask, because the argument ought to be pulled up from time to time, and not be allowed to run away, but held with bit and bridle, and then we shall not, as the proverb says, fall off our ass. Let us then once more ask the question, To what end has all this been said?
ATHENIAN: With this freedom comes another kind of freedom—the freedom to disobey those in charge (see Republic); then there's the effort to break free from the guidance and advice of parents, elders, and eventually, the authority of the law; and finally, there’s a disregard for promises and a complete lack of respect for the Gods—this reflects and echoes the so-called Titanic nature of old, leading to the same outcome as the Titans when they defied God, resulting in a life filled with endless troubles. But why am I saying all this? I mention it because we need to occasionally rein in the argument; it shouldn't just run wild but should be controlled, so we don’t, as the saying goes, fall off our ass. So, once again, let’s ask the question: What is the purpose of all this?
MEGILLUS: Very good.
MEGILLUS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: This, then, has been said for the sake—
ATHENIAN: This has been said for the sake—
MEGILLUS: Of what?
MEGILLUS: About what?
ATHENIAN: We were maintaining that the lawgiver ought to have three things in view: first, that the city for which he legislates should be free; and secondly, be at unity with herself; and thirdly, should have understanding;—these were our principles, were they not?
ATHENIAN: We were saying that the lawmaker should focus on three things: first, that the city he’s creating laws for should be free; second, that it should be unified; and third, that it should have wisdom—these were our principles, right?
MEGILLUS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: With a view to this we selected two kinds of government, the one the most despotic, and the other the most free; and now we are considering which of them is the right form: we took a mean in both cases, of despotism in the one, and of liberty in the other, and we saw that in a mean they attained their perfection; but that when they were carried to the extreme of either, slavery or licence, neither party were the gainers.
ATHENIAN: To that end, we chose two types of government: one that is the most oppressive and the other the most free. Now we’re figuring out which of these is the correct form. We found a balance in both cases—oppression in one and freedom in the other—and realized that when balanced, they reached their highest potential. However, when pushed to their extremes, either tyranny or chaos, neither side benefited.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And that was our reason for considering the settlement of the Dorian army, and of the city built by Dardanus at the foot of the mountains, and the removal of cities to the seashore, and of our mention of the first men, who were the survivors of the deluge. And all that was previously said about music and drinking, and what preceded, was said with the view of seeing how a state might be best administered, and how an individual might best order his own life. And now, Megillus and Cleinias, how can we put to the proof the value of our words?
ATHENIAN: That was our reason for discussing the settlement of the Dorian army, the city built by Dardanus at the base of the mountains, and relocating cities to the coast, as well as mentioning the first people who survived the flood. Everything previously mentioned about music and drinking, and what came before, was intended to explore how a state can be best governed and how a person can best manage their own life. Now, Megillus and Cleinias, how can we test the validity of our words?
CLEINIAS: Stranger, I think that I see how a proof of their value may be obtained. This discussion of ours appears to me to have been singularly fortunate, and just what I at this moment want; most auspiciously have you and my friend Megillus come in my way. For I will tell you what has happened to me; and I regard the coincidence as a sort of omen. The greater part of Crete is going to send out a colony, and they have entrusted the management of the affair to the Cnosians; and the Cnosian government to me and nine others. And they desire us to give them any laws which we please, whether taken from the Cretan model or from any other; and they do not mind about their being foreign if they are better. Grant me then this favour, which will also be a gain to yourselves:—Let us make a selection from what has been said, and then let us imagine a State of which we will suppose ourselves to be the original founders. Thus we shall proceed with our enquiry, and, at the same time, I may have the use of the framework which you are constructing, for the city which is in contemplation.
CLEINIAS: Hey there, stranger, I think I figured out how we can prove their value. This discussion we've been having seems really lucky and exactly what I need right now; it's incredibly fortunate that you and my friend Megillus have crossed my path. Let me tell you what happened to me, and I see this coincidence as a kind of sign. Most of Crete is planning to send out a colony, and they've put the Cnosians in charge of the whole thing; the Cnosian government has entrusted me and nine others with this task. They want us to provide any laws we think are best, whether they're based on the Cretan model or anything else; they don’t care if the laws are from somewhere else, as long as they're better. So, please do me this favor, which will benefit you too: let’s pick from what we've discussed, and then let’s imagine a State that we’ll consider ourselves the original founders of. This way, we can continue our investigation, and at the same time, I can use the structure you're creating for the city we're thinking about.
ATHENIAN: Good news, Cleinias; if Megillus has no objection, you may be sure that I will do all in my power to please you.
ATHENIAN: Great news, Cleinias; if Megillus is okay with it, you can be sure that I’ll do everything I can to make you happy.
CLEINIAS: Thank you.
CLEINIAS: Thanks.
MEGILLUS: And so will I.
MEGILLUS: Same here.
CLEINIAS: Excellent; and now let us begin to frame the State.
CLEINIAS: Great; now let’s start shaping the State.
BOOK IV.
ATHENIAN: And now, what will this city be? I do not mean to ask what is or will hereafter be the name of the place; that may be determined by the accident of locality or of the original settlement—a river or fountain, or some local deity may give the sanction of a name to the newly-founded city; but I do want to know what the situation is, whether maritime or inland.
ATHENIAN: And now, what will this city be? I’m not asking what its name is or will be; that could come from the local area or the original settlement—a river, a spring, or some local god might provide a name for the new city. What I really want to know is the location—whether it’s by the sea or inland.
CLEINIAS: I should imagine, Stranger, that the city of which we are speaking is about eighty stadia distant from the sea.
CLEINIAS: I would guess, Stranger, that the city we're talking about is roughly eighty stadia away from the sea.
ATHENIAN: And are there harbours on the seaboard?
ATHENIAN: Are there any harbors along the coast?
CLEINIAS: Excellent harbours, Stranger; there could not be better.
CLEINIAS: Great harbors, Stranger; they couldn't be any better.
ATHENIAN: Alas! what a prospect! And is the surrounding country productive, or in need of importations?
ATHENIAN: Wow! What a view! Is the countryside fertile, or does it rely on imports?
CLEINIAS: Hardly in need of anything.
CLEINIAS: Almost self-sufficient.
ATHENIAN: And is there any neighbouring State?
ATHENIAN: Is there any neighboring state?
CLEINIAS: None whatever, and that is the reason for selecting the place; in days of old, there was a migration of the inhabitants, and the region has been deserted from time immemorial.
CLEINIAS: None at all, and that's why we chose this spot; in ancient times, the residents moved away, and the area has been abandoned for as long as anyone can remember.
ATHENIAN: And has the place a fair proportion of hill, and plain, and wood?
ATHENIAN: Does the area have a good balance of hills, flat land, and woods?
CLEINIAS: Like the rest of Crete in that.
CLEINIAS: Just like the rest of Crete in that regard.
ATHENIAN: You mean to say that there is more rock than plain?
ATHENIAN: Are you saying there’s more rock than flat land?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: Right on.
ATHENIAN: Then there is some hope that your citizens may be virtuous: had you been on the sea, and well provided with harbours, and an importing rather than a producing country, some mighty saviour would have been needed, and lawgivers more than mortal, if you were ever to have a chance of preserving your state from degeneracy and discordance of manners (compare Ar. Pol.). But there is comfort in the eighty stadia; although the sea is too near, especially if, as you say, the harbours are so good. Still we may be content. The sea is pleasant enough as a daily companion, but has indeed also a bitter and brackish quality; filling the streets with merchants and shopkeepers, and begetting in the souls of men uncertain and unfaithful ways—making the state unfriendly and unfaithful both to her own citizens, and also to other nations. There is a consolation, therefore, in the country producing all things at home; and yet, owing to the ruggedness of the soil, not providing anything in great abundance. Had there been abundance, there might have been a great export trade, and a great return of gold and silver; which, as we may safely affirm, has the most fatal results on a State whose aim is the attainment of just and noble sentiments: this was said by us, if you remember, in the previous discussion.
ATHENIAN: So there's some hope that your citizens might be virtuous. If you had been on the sea, well-stocked with harbors, and more of an importing country than a producing one, you would have needed a mighty savior and lawgivers more than human, just to have a chance of keeping your state from decline and discord (compare Ar. Pol.). But there’s some comfort in the eighty stadia; even though the sea is too close, especially if, as you say, the harbors are so good. Still, we can be content. The sea is a nice daily companion, but it also has a bitter and salty side; it fills the streets with merchants and shopkeepers, and breeds uncertainty and unfaithfulness in people—making the state unfriendly and untrustworthy to its own citizens and to other nations. So, there's a consolation in the country producing everything at home; yet, because of the rough terrain, it doesn’t provide anything in great abundance. If there had been a lot, there could have been a huge export trade and a big return of gold and silver; which, as we can safely say, has the most disastrous effects on a state that aims for just and noble ideals: we mentioned this in our earlier discussion.
CLEINIAS: I remember, and am of opinion that we both were and are in the right.
CLEINIAS: I remember, and I believe that we were right and still are.
ATHENIAN: Well, but let me ask, how is the country supplied with timber for ship-building?
ATHENIAN: Well, let me ask, how does the country get timber for building ships?
CLEINIAS: There is no fir of any consequence, nor pine, and not much cypress; and you will find very little stone-pine or plane-wood, which shipwrights always require for the interior of ships.
CLEINIAS: There’s no fir of any importance, no pine, and not much cypress; and you’ll find very little stone pine or plane wood, which shipbuilders always need for the insides of ships.
ATHENIAN: These are also natural advantages.
ATHENIAN: These are also natural benefits.
CLEINIAS: Why so?
CLEINIAS: Why is that?
ATHENIAN: Because no city ought to be easily able to imitate its enemies in what is mischievous.
ATHENIAN: Because no city should be easily able to copy its enemies in doing harm.
CLEINIAS: How does that bear upon any of the matters of which we have been speaking?
CLEINIAS: How does that relate to any of the topics we've been discussing?
ATHENIAN: Remember, my good friend, what I said at first about the Cretan laws, that they looked to one thing only, and this, as you both agreed, was war; and I replied that such laws, in so far as they tended to promote virtue, were good; but in that they regarded a part only, and not the whole of virtue, I disapproved of them. And now I hope that you in your turn will follow and watch me if I legislate with a view to anything but virtue, or with a view to a part of virtue only. For I consider that the true lawgiver, like an archer, aims only at that on which some eternal beauty is always attending, and dismisses everything else, whether wealth or any other benefit, when separated from virtue. I was saying that the imitation of enemies was a bad thing; and I was thinking of a case in which a maritime people are harassed by enemies, as the Athenians were by Minos (I do not speak from any desire to recall past grievances); but he, as we know, was a great naval potentate, who compelled the inhabitants of Attica to pay him a cruel tribute; and in those days they had no ships of war as they now have, nor was the country filled with ship-timber, and therefore they could not readily build them. Hence they could not learn how to imitate their enemy at sea, and in this way, becoming sailors themselves, directly repel their enemies. Better for them to have lost many times over the seven youths, than that heavy-armed and stationary troops should have been turned into sailors, and accustomed to be often leaping on shore, and again to come running back to their ships; or should have fancied that there was no disgrace in not awaiting the attack of an enemy and dying boldly; and that there were good reasons, and plenty of them, for a man throwing away his arms, and betaking himself to flight,—which is not dishonourable, as people say, at certain times. This is the language of naval warfare, and is anything but worthy of extraordinary praise. For we should not teach bad habits, least of all to the best part of the citizens. You may learn the evil of such a practice from Homer, by whom Odysseus is introduced, rebuking Agamemnon, because he desires to draw down the ships to the sea at a time when the Achaeans are hard pressed by the Trojans,—he gets angry with him, and says:
ATHENIAN: Remember, my good friend, what I said at the beginning about the Cretan laws—they focused solely on one thing, which, as you both agreed, was war. I mentioned that such laws, insofar as they aimed to promote virtue, were good; but since they addressed only a part of virtue and not the entirety of it, I disapproved of them. Now, I hope you will follow and observe if I legislate with the intention of anything other than virtue or just part of virtue. I believe that a true lawgiver, like an archer, aims only at that which is always accompanied by some kind of eternal beauty, dismissing everything else—whether it’s wealth or any other benefit—when separated from virtue. I was saying that imitating enemies is a bad practice; I was considering a situation where a coastal community is troubled by enemies, like the Athenians were by Minos (I mention this not to bring up old grievances). He was a powerful naval leader who forced the people of Attica to pay a harsh tribute; at that time, they lacked warships, as they have now, and the country wasn’t filled with timber for ships, so they couldn’t easily build them. Thus, they couldn’t learn to imitate their enemy at sea and become sailors themselves, enabling them to repel their foes. It would have been better for them to have lost the seven youths many times over than for their heavy infantry to become sailors, getting used to jumping ashore and then running back to their ships again; or to believe that there was no shame in not standing their ground against an enemy and dying bravely; and that there were justifiable reasons for a man to discard his weapons and flee—which, contrary to popular belief, is not dishonorable at certain moments. This expresses the mindset of naval warfare, and it certainly doesn’t deserve high praise. We shouldn’t teach harmful habits, especially not to the best of our citizens. You can see the consequences of such a practice from Homer, who depicts Odysseus scolding Agamemnon for wanting to pull the ships to the sea while the Achaeans are under pressure from the Trojans—he gets angry with him and says:
'Who, at a time when the battle is in full cry, biddest to drag the well-benched ships into the sea, that the prayers of the Trojans may be accomplished yet more, and high ruin fall upon us. For the Achaeans will not maintain the battle, when the ships are drawn into the sea, but they will look behind and will cease from strife; in that the counsel which you give will prove injurious.'
'Who, in the heat of battle, urges us to pull the well-equipped ships into the sea so that the Trojans' prayers may be fulfilled even more and lead to our destruction? The Achaeans won't continue fighting once the ships are pulled away; they'll turn back and stop the fight, and the advice you're giving will be harmful.'
You see that he quite knew triremes on the sea, in the neighbourhood of fighting men, to be an evil;—lions might be trained in that way to fly from a herd of deer. Moreover, naval powers which owe their safety to ships, do not give honour to that sort of warlike excellence which is most deserving of it. For he who owes his safety to the pilot and the captain, and the oarsman, and all sorts of rather inferior persons, cannot rightly give honour to whom honour is due. But how can a state be in a right condition which cannot justly award honour?
You can see that he definitely recognized triremes in the sea, among warriors, as a negative influence—just like lions could be trained to run away from a herd of deer. Furthermore, naval powers that rely on their ships for safety don’t truly appreciate the kind of military skill that really deserves recognition. Someone who depends on the pilot, the captain, and the rowers, as well as all sorts of lesser individuals, can't fairly honor those who truly deserve it. But how can a state be in a good position if it can’t justly award honor?
CLEINIAS: It is hardly possible, I admit; and yet, Stranger, we Cretans are in the habit of saying that the battle of Salamis was the salvation of Hellas.
CLEINIAS: I know it's unlikely, but still, Stranger, we Cretans like to say that the battle of Salamis saved Greece.
ATHENIAN: Why, yes; and that is an opinion which is widely spread both among Hellenes and barbarians. But Megillus and I say rather, that the battle of Marathon was the beginning, and the battle of Plataea the completion, of the great deliverance, and that these battles by land made the Hellenes better; whereas the sea-fights of Salamis and Artemisium—for I may as well put them both together—made them no better, if I may say so without offence about the battles which helped to save us. And in estimating the goodness of a state, we regard both the situation of the country and the order of the laws, considering that the mere preservation and continuance of life is not the most honourable thing for men, as the vulgar think, but the continuance of the best life, while we live; and that again, if I am not mistaken, is a remark which has been made already.
ATHENIAN: Yes, that's a commonly held view among both Greeks and non-Greeks. But Megillus and I believe that the battle of Marathon marked the beginning and the battle of Plataea was the conclusion of our great liberation. These land battles improved the Greeks’ strength, while the naval battles of Salamis and Artemisium—since I might as well mention both—didn’t enhance them as much, if I may speak candidly about the battles that helped save us. When we assess the value of a state, we take into account both the location and the laws, recognizing that merely surviving isn’t the most honorable goal for people, as most think, but rather living the best life while we exist. And if I’m not mistaken, that’s a point that’s already been made.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
ATHENIAN: Then we have only to ask, whether we are taking the course which we acknowledge to be the best for the settlement and legislation of states.
ATHENIAN: So all we need to do now is ask if we're pursuing the path we believe is best for establishing and creating laws for states.
CLEINIAS: The best by far.
CLEINIAS: The best, hands down.
ATHENIAN: And now let me proceed to another question: Who are to be the colonists? May any one come out of all Crete; and is the idea that the population in the several states is too numerous for the means of subsistence? For I suppose that you are not going to send out a general invitation to any Hellene who likes to come. And yet I observe that to your country settlers have come from Argos and Aegina and other parts of Hellas. Tell me, then, whence do you draw your recruits in the present enterprise?
ATHENIAN: Now, let me ask another question: Who will be the colonists? Can anyone from all of Crete come, and is it the case that the population in the various states is too large for the resources available? I assume you’re not planning to send out a general invitation for any Greek who wants to join. Still, I notice that settlers have arrived from Argos, Aegina, and other areas of Greece. So, tell me, where are you getting your recruits for this venture?
CLEINIAS: They will come from all Crete; and of other Hellenes, Peloponnesians will be most acceptable. For, as you truly observe, there are Cretans of Argive descent; and the race of Cretans which has the highest character at the present day is the Gortynian, and this has come from Gortys in the Peloponnesus.
CLEINIAS: They will come from all over Crete; and among the other Greeks, the people from the Peloponnesus will be the most welcome. As you rightly point out, there are Cretans who are descended from Argos; and the group of Cretans with the best reputation nowadays is the Gortynians, who trace their roots back to Gortys in the Peloponnesus.
ATHENIAN: Cities find colonization in some respects easier if the colonists are one race, which like a swarm of bees is sent out from a single country, either when friends leave friends, owing to some pressure of population or other similar necessity, or when a portion of a state is driven by factions to emigrate. And there have been whole cities which have taken flight when utterly conquered by a superior power in war. This, however, which is in one way an advantage to the colonist or legislator, in another point of view creates a difficulty. There is an element of friendship in the community of race, and language, and laws, and in common temples and rites of worship; but colonies which are of this homogeneous sort are apt to kick against any laws or any form of constitution differing from that which they had at home; and although the badness of their own laws may have been the cause of the factions which prevailed among them, yet from the force of habit they would fain preserve the very customs which were their ruin, and the leader of the colony, who is their legislator, finds them troublesome and rebellious. On the other hand, the conflux of several populations might be more disposed to listen to new laws; but then, to make them combine and pull together, as they say of horses, is a most difficult task, and the work of years. And yet there is nothing which tends more to the improvement of mankind than legislation and colonization.
ATHENIAN: Cities often find it easier to colonize when the colonists come from a single race, like a swarm of bees sent out from one country, whether because friends are leaving friends due to population pressures or other similar needs, or when a part of a state is forced to emigrate because of internal conflicts. There have even been entire cities that fled after being completely conquered by a stronger power in war. While this uniformity can be an advantage for the colonist or legislator, it also creates challenges. The shared ethnicity, language, laws, and common temples and rituals foster a sense of community, but these homogeneous colonies tend to resist any laws or constitutions that differ from what they had back home. Even if their old laws contributed to the problems they faced, they often cling to the very customs that caused their downfall, making it difficult for the colony leader, who is also their legislator, to manage them. On the other hand, a mix of different populations may be more open to new laws, but getting them to work together, like they say about horses, is a very challenging task that takes years. Still, nothing is more beneficial for the advancement of society than legislation and colonization.
CLEINIAS: No doubt; but I should like to know why you say so.
CLEINIAS: No doubt about it; but I’d like to know why you say that.
ATHENIAN: My good friend, I am afraid that the course of my speculations is leading me to say something depreciatory of legislators; but if the word be to the purpose, there can be no harm. And yet, why am I disquieted, for I believe that the same principle applies equally to all human things?
ATHENIAN: My good friend, I'm worried that my thoughts are taking me to say something negative about lawmakers; but if it’s relevant, it shouldn't be an issue. Still, why am I uneasy? I believe the same principle applies to everything human.
CLEINIAS: To what are you referring?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: I was going to say that man never legislates, but accidents of all sorts, which legislate for us in all sorts of ways. The violence of war and the hard necessity of poverty are constantly overturning governments and changing laws. And the power of disease has often caused innovations in the state, when there have been pestilences, or when there has been a succession of bad seasons continuing during many years. Any one who sees all this, naturally rushes to the conclusion of which I was speaking, that no mortal legislates in anything, but that in human affairs chance is almost everything. And this may be said of the arts of the sailor, and the pilot, and the physician, and the general, and may seem to be well said; and yet there is another thing which may be said with equal truth of all of them.
ATHENIAN: I was going to say that humans don’t truly create laws on their own; it’s actually all kinds of accidents that legislate for us in various ways. The brutality of war and the harsh reality of poverty constantly disrupt governments and alter laws. The impact of disease has frequently led to changes in the state, especially during epidemics or prolonged periods of bad harvests. Anyone who observes this would naturally conclude, as I was mentioning, that no one truly legislates anything, and that chance plays a significant role in human affairs. This could also apply to the skills of sailors, pilots, doctors, and generals, and it might seem like a valid point; however, there’s something else just as true about all of them.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: That God governs all things, and that chance and opportunity co-operate with Him in the government of human affairs. There is, however, a third and less extreme view, that art should be there also; for I should say that in a storm there must surely be a great advantage in having the aid of the pilot's art. You would agree?
ATHENIAN: That God oversees everything, and that chance and opportunity work alongside Him in managing human affairs. However, there’s a third, less extreme perspective that suggests art should play a role as well; after all, in a storm, having the skill of a pilot would definitely be a significant advantage. You would agree, right?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: And does not a like principle apply to legislation as well as to other things: even supposing all the conditions to be favourable which are needed for the happiness of the state, yet the true legislator must from time to time appear on the scene?
ATHENIAN: Doesn't the same principle apply to laws like it does to other things? Even if all the conditions for the state's happiness are in place, the true lawmaker still needs to step in from time to time?
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely true.
ATHENIAN: In each case the artist would be able to pray rightly for certain conditions, and if these were granted by fortune, he would then only require to exercise his art?
ATHENIAN: In each case, the artist would be able to pray correctly for certain conditions, and if fortune granted those, he would then only need to practice his art.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And all the other artists just now mentioned, if they were bidden to offer up each their special prayer, would do so?
ATHENIAN: And all the other artists recently mentioned, if they were asked to offer their special prayer, would they do it?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: And the legislator would do likewise?
ATHENIAN: So the legislator would do the same?
CLEINIAS: I believe that he would.
CLEINIAS: I think he would.
ATHENIAN: 'Come, legislator,' we will say to him; 'what are the conditions which you require in a state before you can organize it?' How ought he to answer this question? Shall I give his answer?
ATHENIAN: 'Come on, legislator,' we’ll say to him; 'what are the conditions you need for a state before you can set it up?' How should he respond to this question? Should I share his answer?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
ATHENIAN: He will say—'Give me a state which is governed by a tyrant, and let the tyrant be young and have a good memory; let him be quick at learning, and of a courageous and noble nature; let him have that quality which, as I said before, is the inseparable companion of all the other parts of virtue, if there is to be any good in them.'
ATHENIAN: He will say—'Give me a state that is ruled by a tyrant, and let the tyrant be young and have a good memory; let him learn quickly, and be courageous and noble; let him have that quality which, as I mentioned before, is the constant companion of all the other aspects of virtue, if they are to have any value.'
CLEINIAS: I suppose, Megillus, that this companion virtue of which the Stranger speaks, must be temperance?
CLEINIAS: I guess, Megillus, that this companion virtue the Stranger is talking about must be temperance?
ATHENIAN: Yes, Cleinias, temperance in the vulgar sense; not that which in the forced and exaggerated language of some philosophers is called prudence, but that which is the natural gift of children and animals, of whom some live continently and others incontinently, but when isolated, was, as we said, hardly worth reckoning in the catalogue of goods. I think that you must understand my meaning.
ATHENIAN: Yes, Cleinias, I mean temperance in the common sense; not the kind that some philosophers awkwardly refer to as prudence, but the kind that comes naturally to children and animals. Some of them live with self-control, while others do not, but when looked at alone, as we mentioned, it’s not really something to consider as a valuable trait. I believe you get what I mean.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then our tyrant must have this as well as the other qualities, if the state is to acquire in the best manner and in the shortest time the form of government which is most conducive to happiness; for there neither is nor ever will be a better or speedier way of establishing a polity than by a tyranny.
ATHENIAN: Then our tyrant must have this as well as the other qualities if the state is to effectively and quickly achieve the form of government that is most conducive to happiness; for there is no better or quicker way to establish a political system than through tyranny.
CLEINIAS: By what possible arguments, Stranger, can any man persuade himself of such a monstrous doctrine?
CLEINIAS: How can anyone possibly convince themselves of such a ridiculous belief, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: There is surely no difficulty in seeing, Cleinias, what is in accordance with the order of nature?
ATHENIAN: It’s pretty obvious, Cleinias, what aligns with the natural order, right?
CLEINIAS: You would assume, as you say, a tyrant who was young, temperate, quick at learning, having a good memory, courageous, of a noble nature?
CLEINIAS: So you're saying that you'd expect a young, temperate tyrant who is quick to learn, has a good memory, is courageous, and has a noble character?
ATHENIAN: Yes; and you must add fortunate; and his good fortune must be that he is the contemporary of a great legislator, and that some happy chance brings them together. When this has been accomplished, God has done all that he ever does for a state which he desires to be eminently prosperous; He has done second best for a state in which there are two such rulers, and third best for a state in which there are three. The difficulty increases with the increase, and diminishes with the diminution of the number.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and we should also say fortunate; his good luck must be that he lives at the same time as a great lawmaker, and that some lucky chance brings them together. When this happens, God has done everything he can for a state that he wants to be truly successful; he's done the second best for a state with two such rulers, and the third best for a state with three. The challenges grow with the number of rulers and decrease as the number goes down.
CLEINIAS: You mean to say, I suppose, that the best government is produced from a tyranny, and originates in a good lawgiver and an orderly tyrant, and that the change from such a tyranny into a perfect form of government takes place most easily; less easily when from an oligarchy; and, in the third degree, from a democracy: is not that your meaning?
CLEINIAS: So you’re saying that the best government comes from a tyranny that starts with a good lawmaker and a structured tyrant, and that transitioning from that kind of tyranny to a perfect government is the easiest; it's harder to transition from an oligarchy; and it's even more difficult from a democracy. Is that what you mean?
ATHENIAN: Not so; I mean rather to say that the change is best made out of a tyranny; and secondly, out of a monarchy; and thirdly, out of some sort of democracy: fourth, in the capacity for improvement, comes oligarchy, which has the greatest difficulty in admitting of such a change, because the government is in the hands of a number of potentates. I am supposing that the legislator is by nature of the true sort, and that his strength is united with that of the chief men of the state; and when the ruling element is numerically small, and at the same time very strong, as in a tyranny, there the change is likely to be easiest and most rapid.
ATHENIAN: Not at all; what I mean is that the best changes come from a tyranny; then from a monarchy; and thirdly, from some kind of democracy. Fourth, in terms of the ability to improve, we have oligarchy, which has the hardest time making such a change because the power is held by a few strong individuals. I'm assuming that the legislator is genuinely good at what he does and that his influence is combined with that of the important leaders in the state. When the ruling group is small and very powerful, like in a tyranny, that's when change is likely to happen the easiest and fastest.
CLEINIAS: How? I do not understand.
CLEINIAS: How? I don't get it.
ATHENIAN: And yet I have repeated what I am saying a good many times; but I suppose that you have never seen a city which is under a tyranny?
ATHENIAN: I've said what I'm saying many times; but I guess you've never seen a city that's under a tyranny?
CLEINIAS: No, and I cannot say that I have any great desire to see one.
CLEINIAS: No, and I can’t say that I really want to see one.
ATHENIAN: And yet, where there is a tyranny, you might certainly see that of which I am now speaking.
ATHENIAN: And yet, in the presence of a tyranny, you can definitely see what I'm talking about.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean that you might see how, without trouble and in no very long period of time, the tyrant, if he wishes, can change the manners of a state: he has only to go in the direction of virtue or of vice, whichever he prefers, he himself indicating by his example the lines of conduct, praising and rewarding some actions and reproving others, and degrading those who disobey.
ATHENIAN: I mean that you could see how, without much effort and in a relatively short time, a tyrant, if he chooses, can change the behavior of a state: he just needs to promote virtue or vice, depending on what he wants, setting the example himself, encouraging and rewarding certain actions while disapproving of others, and punishing those who don't comply.
CLEINIAS: But how can we imagine that the citizens in general will at once follow the example set to them; and how can he have this power both of persuading and of compelling them?
CLEINIAS: But how can we expect that the citizens will just automatically follow the example set for them? And how can he have the ability to both persuade and force them?
ATHENIAN: Let no one, my friends, persuade us that there is any quicker and easier way in which states change their laws than when the rulers lead: such changes never have, nor ever will, come to pass in any other way. The real impossibility or difficulty is of another sort, and is rarely surmounted in the course of ages; but when once it is surmounted, ten thousand or rather all blessings follow.
ATHENIAN: Let no one, my friends, convince us that there is any faster or simpler way for governments to change their laws than when the leaders take charge: such changes have never happened, and will never happen, in any other way. The true challenge is of a different nature and is seldom overcome over the ages; but once it is overcome, countless blessings follow.
CLEINIAS: Of what are you speaking?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: The difficulty is to find the divine love of temperate and just institutions existing in any powerful forms of government, whether in a monarchy or oligarchy of wealth or of birth. You might as well hope to reproduce the character of Nestor, who is said to have excelled all men in the power of speech, and yet more in his temperance. This, however, according to the tradition, was in the times of Troy; in our own days there is nothing of the sort; but if such an one either has or ever shall come into being, or is now among us, blessed is he and blessed are they who hear the wise words that flow from his lips. And this may be said of power in general: When the supreme power in man coincides with the greatest wisdom and temperance, then the best laws and the best constitution come into being; but in no other way. And let what I have been saying be regarded as a kind of sacred legend or oracle, and let this be our proof that, in one point of view, there may be a difficulty for a city to have good laws, but that there is another point of view in which nothing can be easier or sooner effected, granting our supposition.
ATHENIAN: The challenge is to find true divine love for rational and just systems within any strong government, whether it’s a monarchy, an oligarchy of wealth, or one based on lineage. It’s about as likely as trying to recreate the character of Nestor, who was said to be the most eloquent of all men and even more distinguished for his self-control. However, according to tradition, that was back in the days of Troy; today, we don’t see anything like this. But if such a person were to exist, or ever comes into existence, or is among us now, they would be blessed, as would those who get to hear the wise words coming from their mouth. This applies to power in general: When a person’s highest authority aligns with their greatest wisdom and self-restraint, the best laws and the best government emerge; otherwise, it’s not possible. Let what I have said be viewed as a sort of sacred legend or prophecy, and let this serve as proof that, from one perspective, it can be challenging for a city to have good laws, but from another perspective, nothing could be easier or quicker to achieve, if we accept our premise.
CLEINIAS: How do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: Let us try to amuse ourselves, old boys as we are, by moulding in words the laws which are suitable to your state.
ATHENIAN: Let's try to have some fun, old friends that we are, by shaping in words the laws that fit your state.
CLEINIAS: Let us proceed without delay.
CLEINIAS: Let's move forward without wasting any time.
ATHENIAN: Then let us invoke God at the settlement of our state; may He hear and be propitious to us, and come and set in order the State and the laws!
ATHENIAN: Then let’s call upon God as we establish our state; may He listen to us and be favorable, and come to organize the State and the laws!
CLEINIAS: May He come!
CLEINIAS: I hope He comes!
ATHENIAN: But what form of polity are we going to give the city?
ATHENIAN: But what kind of government are we going to set up for the city?
CLEINIAS: Tell us what you mean a little more clearly. Do you mean some form of democracy, or oligarchy, or aristocracy, or monarchy? For we cannot suppose that you would include tyranny.
CLEINIAS: Can you explain what you mean a bit more clearly? Are you referring to some kind of democracy, oligarchy, aristocracy, or monarchy? We can't think that you're including tyranny.
ATHENIAN: Which of you will first tell me to which of these classes his own government is to be referred?
ATHENIAN: Which of you will be the first to tell me which of these classes his own government belongs to?
MEGILLUS: Ought I to answer first, since I am the elder?
MEGILLUS: Should I answer first since I'm the oldest?
CLEINIAS: Perhaps you should.
CLEINIAS: Maybe you should.
MEGILLUS: And yet, Stranger, I perceive that I cannot say, without more thought, what I should call the government of Lacedaemon, for it seems to me to be like a tyranny,—the power of our Ephors is marvellously tyrannical; and sometimes it appears to me to be of all cities the most democratical; and who can reasonably deny that it is an aristocracy (compare Ar. Pol.)? We have also a monarchy which is held for life, and is said by all mankind, and not by ourselves only, to be the most ancient of all monarchies; and, therefore, when asked on a sudden, I cannot precisely say which form of government the Spartan is.
MEGILLUS: And yet, Stranger, I realize that I can't quite determine what to call the government of Lacedaemon without thinking it through more. It seems to me like a tyranny—our Ephors have a remarkably tyrannical grip on power; at times it even feels like the most democratic of all cities. Who can reasonably argue that it isn't an aristocracy? We also have a monarchy that lasts for life, which everyone agrees is the oldest of all monarchies, not just us. So, when I'm asked out of the blue, I can't accurately say what form of government the Spartans have.
CLEINIAS: I am in the same difficulty, Megillus; for I do not feel confident that the polity of Cnosus is any of these.
CLEINIAS: I'm in the same predicament, Megillus; I don't feel sure that the government of Cnosus fits any of these.
ATHENIAN: The reason is, my excellent friends, that you really have polities, but the states of which we were just now speaking are merely aggregations of men dwelling in cities who are the subjects and servants of a part of their own state, and each of them is named after the dominant power; they are not polities at all. But if states are to be named after their rulers, the true state ought to be called by the name of the God who rules over wise men.
ATHENIAN: The reason is, my great friends, that you actually have political systems, but the states we just mentioned are just groups of people living in cities who are the subjects and servants of a portion of their own society, and each one is named after the ruling power; they aren't true political systems at all. But if states were to be named after their rulers, the real state should be named after the God who governs wise people.
CLEINIAS: And who is this God?
CLEINIAS: And who is this God?
ATHENIAN: May I still make use of fable to some extent, in the hope that I may be better able to answer your question: shall I?
ATHENIAN: Can I still use a fable to some extent, hoping it will help me answer your question better? Should I?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: In the primeval world, and a long while before the cities came into being whose settlements we have described, there is said to have been in the time of Cronos a blessed rule and life, of which the best-ordered of existing states is a copy (compare Statesman).
ATHENIAN: In the ancient world, long before the cities we’ve described were established, it’s said that during the time of Cronos, there was a blessed rule and way of life, which the most well-organized of today’s states reflects (see Statesman).
CLEINIAS: It will be very necessary to hear about that.
CLEINIAS: We really need to hear about that.
ATHENIAN: I quite agree with you; and therefore I have introduced the subject.
ATHENIAN: I totally agree with you, and that's why I brought it up.
CLEINIAS: Most appropriately; and since the tale is to the point, you will do well in giving us the whole story.
CLEINIAS: That makes perfect sense; and since the story is relevant, it would be great if you could share the entire tale with us.
ATHENIAN: I will do as you suggest. There is a tradition of the happy life of mankind in days when all things were spontaneous and abundant. And of this the reason is said to have been as follows:—Cronos knew what we ourselves were declaring, that no human nature invested with supreme power is able to order human affairs and not overflow with insolence and wrong. Which reflection led him to appoint not men but demigods, who are of a higher and more divine race, to be the kings and rulers of our cities; he did as we do with flocks of sheep and other tame animals. For we do not appoint oxen to be the lords of oxen, or goats of goats; but we ourselves are a superior race, and rule over them. In like manner God, in His love of mankind, placed over us the demons, who are a superior race, and they with great ease and pleasure to themselves, and no less to us, taking care of us and giving us peace and reverence and order and justice never failing, made the tribes of men happy and united. And this tradition, which is true, declares that cities of which some mortal man and not God is the ruler, have no escape from evils and toils. Still we must do all that we can to imitate the life which is said to have existed in the days of Cronos, and, as far as the principle of immortality dwells in us, to that we must hearken, both in private and public life, and regulate our cities and houses according to law, meaning by the very term 'law,' the distribution of mind. But if either a single person or an oligarchy or a democracy has a soul eager after pleasures and desires—wanting to be filled with them, yet retaining none of them, and perpetually afflicted with an endless and insatiable disorder; and this evil spirit, having first trampled the laws under foot, becomes the master either of a state or of an individual,—then, as I was saying, salvation is hopeless. And now, Cleinias, we have to consider whether you will or will not accept this tale of mine.
ATHENIAN: I will do what you suggest. There’s a story about the joyful life of people in times when everything was free and plentiful. The reason for this is said to be as follows:—Cronos understood what we’re saying, that no human being with ultimate power can manage human affairs without becoming arrogant and corrupt. This realization led him to choose not men, but demigods—who are of a higher and more divine nature—to be the kings and rulers of our cities, just like we handle flocks of sheep and other domesticated animals. We don't choose oxen to lead oxen, or goats to lead goats; we, being a superior species, rule over them. Similarly, God, out of love for humanity, appointed the demons, who are a higher race, to oversee us, and they, finding joy in caring for us and in providing us with peace, respect, order, and consistent justice, made humanity happy and united. This true story asserts that cities ruled by some mortal man instead of God face unavoidable troubles and hardships. Still, we must do our best to emulate the life that is said to have existed in the days of Cronos. As long as the spirit of immortality resides within us, we must listen to it, both in our private lives and in public affairs, and organize our cities and homes according to the law, which means the application of reason. However, if an individual, an oligarchy, or a democracy has a soul that craves pleasures and desires—seeking to be filled with them yet never truly possessing them, constantly tormented by a never-ending and insatiable chaos; and if this corrupted spirit, having first disregarded the laws, takes control either of a state or an individual—then, as I said, salvation becomes impossible. Now, Cleinias, we need to think about whether you will accept this story of mine or not.
CLEINIAS: Certainly we will.
CLEINIAS: Of course we will.
ATHENIAN: You are aware,—are you not?—that there are often said to be as many forms of laws as there are of governments, and of the latter we have already mentioned all those which are commonly recognized. Now you must regard this as a matter of first-rate importance. For what is to be the standard of just and unjust, is once more the point at issue. Men say that the law ought not to regard either military virtue, or virtue in general, but only the interests and power and preservation of the established form of government; this is thought by them to be the best way of expressing the natural definition of justice.
ATHENIAN: You know, right? There are often said to be as many types of laws as there are governments, and we've already talked about all the ones that are generally accepted. You really need to see this as a crucial point. Because what should define what's just and unjust is once again the key issue. People argue that the law shouldn't focus on military virtue, or virtue in general, but rather on the interests, power, and preservation of the current government system; they believe this is the best way to express the natural definition of justice.
CLEINIAS: How?
CLEINIAS: How's that?
ATHENIAN: Justice is said by them to be the interest of the stronger (Republic).
ATHENIAN: They say that justice is the advantage of the stronger.
CLEINIAS: Speak plainer.
CLEINIAS: Speak more clearly.
ATHENIAN: I will:—'Surely,' they say, 'the governing power makes whatever laws have authority in any state'?
ATHENIAN: I will:—'Surely,' they say, 'the governing power creates whatever laws hold authority in any state'?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: 'Well,' they would add, 'and do you suppose that tyranny or democracy, or any other conquering power, does not make the continuance of the power which is possessed by them the first or principal object of their laws'?
ATHENIAN: 'Well,' they would add, 'do you really think that tyranny or democracy, or any other dominating force, doesn’t make the preservation of their power the main focus of their laws?'
CLEINIAS: How can they have any other?
CLEINIAS: How could they have anything else?
ATHENIAN: 'And whoever transgresses these laws is punished as an evil-doer by the legislator, who calls the laws just'?
ATHENIAN: 'And anyone who breaks these laws is punished as a wrongdoer by the lawmaker, who calls the laws fair'?
CLEINIAS: Naturally.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: 'This, then, is always the mode and fashion in which justice exists.'
ATHENIAN: 'This is always how justice exists.'
CLEINIAS: Certainly, if they are correct in their view.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, if their perspective is right.
ATHENIAN: Why, yes, this is one of those false principles of government to which we were referring.
ATHENIAN: Yes, this is one of those misguided ideas about government we were talking about.
CLEINIAS: Which do you mean?
CLEINIAS: Which one are you referring to?
ATHENIAN: Those which we were examining when we spoke of who ought to govern whom. Did we not arrive at the conclusion that parents ought to govern their children, and the elder the younger, and the noble the ignoble? And there were many other principles, if you remember, and they were not always consistent. One principle was this very principle of might, and we said that Pindar considered violence natural and justified it.
ATHENIAN: The ones we were looking into when we discussed who should govern whom. Didn't we conclude that parents should govern their children, and older people should govern younger ones, and the noble should govern the ignoble? And there were many other principles, if you recall, and they weren’t always consistent. One of those principles was the idea of power, and we said that Pindar viewed violence as natural and justified it.
CLEINIAS: Yes; I remember.
CLEINIAS: Yeah; I remember.
ATHENIAN: Consider, then, to whom our state is to be entrusted. For there is a thing which has occurred times without number in states—
ATHENIAN: So, think about to whom we’re going to entrust our state. There’s something that has happened countless times in governments—
CLEINIAS: What thing?
CLEINIAS: What thing?
ATHENIAN: That when there has been a contest for power, those who gain the upper hand so entirely monopolize the government, as to refuse all share to the defeated party and their descendants—they live watching one another, the ruling class being in perpetual fear that some one who has a recollection of former wrongs will come into power and rise up against them. Now, according to our view, such governments are not polities at all, nor are laws right which are passed for the good of particular classes and not for the good of the whole state. States which have such laws are not polities but parties, and their notions of justice are simply unmeaning. I say this, because I am going to assert that we must not entrust the government in your state to any one because he is rich, or because he possesses any other advantage, such as strength, or stature, or again birth: but he who is most obedient to the laws of the state, he shall win the palm; and to him who is victorious in the first degree shall be given the highest office and chief ministry of the gods; and the second to him who bears the second palm; and on a similar principle shall all the other offices be assigned to those who come next in order. And when I call the rulers servants or ministers of the law, I give them this name not for the sake of novelty, but because I certainly believe that upon such service or ministry depends the well- or ill-being of the state. For that state in which the law is subject and has no authority, I perceive to be on the highway to ruin; but I see that the state in which the law is above the rulers, and the rulers are the inferiors of the law, has salvation, and every blessing which the Gods can confer.
ATHENIAN: When there's a struggle for power, those who come out on top end up taking complete control of the government, completely shutting out the defeated group and their descendants. They constantly watch each other, with the ruling class living in fear that someone with memories of past injustices will gain power and rise against them. In our opinion, such governments aren't true political systems at all, and laws that benefit only specific groups rather than the entire state are unjust. States with such laws aren't political entities; they're merely factions, and their ideas of justice lack meaning. I'm saying this because I want to emphasize that we shouldn't hand over government positions to anyone simply because they’re wealthy, strong, tall, or come from a prestigious background. Instead, the person who follows the laws of the state the best should earn the highest recognition. The one who achieves this first will be granted the top position and the chief ministry dedicated to the gods; the next best will take the second spot, and so on for all other roles assigned in order of merit. When I refer to the rulers as servants or ministers of the law, I’m not just using a fancy term; I genuinely believe that the welfare of the state relies on such service. A state where the law is subservient and lacks authority is on the path to destruction. Conversely, a state where the law stands above its rulers, and where those rulers are subordinate to the law, is ensured salvation and all the blessings that the gods can offer.
CLEINIAS: Truly, Stranger, you see with the keen vision of age.
CLEINIAS: Seriously, Stranger, you have the sharp insight that comes with age.
ATHENIAN: Why, yes; every man when he is young has that sort of vision dullest, and when he is old keenest.
ATHENIAN: Of course; every man has that kind of vision when he’s young—it's the dullest, and when he’s old, it’s the sharpest.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And now, what is to be the next step? May we not suppose the colonists to have arrived, and proceed to make our speech to them?
ATHENIAN: So, what's the next step? Can we assume the colonists have arrived, and go ahead with our speech to them?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: 'Friends,' we say to them,—'God, as the old tradition declares, holding in his hand the beginning, middle, and end of all that is, travels according to His nature in a straight line towards the accomplishment of His end. Justice always accompanies Him, and is the punisher of those who fall short of the divine law. To justice, he who would be happy holds fast, and follows in her company with all humility and order; but he who is lifted up with pride, or elated by wealth or rank, or beauty, who is young and foolish, and has a soul hot with insolence, and thinks that he has no need of any guide or ruler, but is able himself to be the guide of others, he, I say, is left deserted of God; and being thus deserted, he takes to him others who are like himself, and dances about, throwing all things into confusion, and many think that he is a great man, but in a short time he pays a penalty which justice cannot but approve, and is utterly destroyed, and his family and city with him. Wherefore, seeing that human things are thus ordered, what should a wise man do or think, or not do or think'?
ATHENIAN: "Friends," we say to them, "God, as the old saying goes, holds the beginning, middle, and end of everything in His hands. He moves naturally in a straight line toward His purpose. Justice is always by His side, punishing those who fall short of divine law. To achieve happiness, one must cling to justice and follow it with humility and order. But those who are proud, lifted by wealth, status, or beauty—young fools with fiery insolence who believe they don't need guidance and think they can lead others—are abandoned by God. In their abandonment, they gather others like themselves, causing chaos, and many mistakenly regard them as great. However, in a short time, they face a penalty that justice inevitably supports, leading to their complete destruction along with their family and city. Therefore, given that human affairs are arranged this way, what should a wise person do, think, or refrain from doing or thinking?"
CLEINIAS: Every man ought to make up his mind that he will be one of the followers of God; there can be no doubt of that.
CLEINIAS: Every person should decide to be one of God's followers; there's no doubt about that.
ATHENIAN: Then what life is agreeable to God, and becoming in His followers? One only, expressed once for all in the old saying that 'like agrees with like, with measure measure,' but things which have no measure agree neither with themselves nor with the things which have. Now God ought to be to us the measure of all things, and not man (compare Crat.; Theaet.), as men commonly say (Protagoras): the words are far more true of Him. And he who would be dear to God must, as far as is possible, be like Him and such as He is. Wherefore the temperate man is the friend of God, for he is like Him; and the intemperate man is unlike Him, and different from Him, and unjust. And the same applies to other things; and this is the conclusion, which is also the noblest and truest of all sayings,—that for the good man to offer sacrifice to the Gods, and hold converse with them by means of prayers and offerings and every kind of service, is the noblest and best of all things, and also the most conducive to a happy life, and very fit and meet. But with the bad man, the opposite of this is true: for the bad man has an impure soul, whereas the good is pure; and from one who is polluted, neither a good man nor God can without impropriety receive gifts. Wherefore the unholy do only waste their much service upon the Gods, but when offered by any holy man, such service is most acceptable to them. This is the mark at which we ought to aim. But what weapons shall we use, and how shall we direct them? In the first place, we affirm that next after the Olympian Gods and the Gods of the State, honour should be given to the Gods below; they should receive everything in even numbers, and of the second choice, and ill omen, while the odd numbers, and the first choice, and the things of lucky omen, are given to the Gods above, by him who would rightly hit the mark of piety. Next to these Gods, a wise man will do service to the demons or spirits, and then to the heroes, and after them will follow the private and ancestral Gods, who are worshipped as the law prescribes in the places which are sacred to them. Next comes the honour of living parents, to whom, as is meet, we have to pay the first and greatest and oldest of all debts, considering that all which a man has belongs to those who gave him birth and brought him up, and that he must do all that he can to minister to them, first, in his property, secondly, in his person, and thirdly, in his soul, in return for the endless care and travail which they bestowed upon him of old, in the days of his infancy, and which he is now to pay back to them when they are old and in the extremity of their need. And all his life long he ought never to utter, or to have uttered, an unbecoming word to them; for of light and fleeting words the penalty is most severe; Nemesis, the messenger of justice, is appointed to watch over all such matters. When they are angry and want to satisfy their feelings in word or deed, he should give way to them; for a father who thinks that he has been wronged by his son may be reasonably expected to be very angry. At their death, the most moderate funeral is best, neither exceeding the customary expense, nor yet falling short of the honour which has been usually shown by the former generation to their parents. And let a man not forget to pay the yearly tribute of respect to the dead, honouring them chiefly by omitting nothing that conduces to a perpetual remembrance of them, and giving a reasonable portion of his fortune to the dead. Doing this, and living after this manner, we shall receive our reward from the Gods and those who are above us (i.e. the demons); and we shall spend our days for the most part in good hope. And how a man ought to order what relates to his descendants and his kindred and friends and fellow-citizens, and the rites of hospitality taught by Heaven, and the intercourse which arises out of all these duties, with a view to the embellishment and orderly regulation of his own life—these things, I say, the laws, as we proceed with them, will accomplish, partly persuading, and partly when natures do not yield to the persuasion of custom, chastising them by might and right, and will thus render our state, if the Gods co-operate with us, prosperous and happy. But of what has to be said, and must be said by the legislator who is of my way of thinking, and yet, if said in the form of law, would be out of place—of this I think that he may give a sample for the instruction of himself and of those for whom he is legislating; and then when, as far as he is able, he has gone through all the preliminaries, he may proceed to the work of legislation. Now, what will be the form of such prefaces? There may be a difficulty in including or describing them all under a single form, but I think that we may get some notion of them if we can guarantee one thing.
ATHENIAN: So, what kind of life pleases God and is appropriate for His followers? There's only one answer, summed up in the old saying that 'like attracts like, and measure is measure.' Things without measure don’t align with each other or with those that have measure. God should be our standard for everything, not man, as people usually claim. The words ring far truer for Him. Anyone who wants to be dear to God should, as much as possible, strive to be like Him. Therefore, a temperate person is a friend of God because he resembles Him; meanwhile, an intemperate person is unlike Him, different, and unjust. This principle extends to other areas too, leading us to the noblest and truest conclusion: for a good person, offering sacrifices to the Gods and communicating with them through prayers, offerings, and services is the highest and best endeavor, and it contributes significantly to a happy life, making it very fitting. Conversely, with a bad person, the opposite is true: a bad person has an impure soul, while a good person is pure; and from someone contaminated, neither a good person nor God can rightfully accept gifts. Thus, those who are unholy merely waste their efforts on the Gods, while offerings from a holy person are most welcome. This is the goal we should strive for. But what methods should we use, and how should we guide them? First, we affirm that after honoring the Olympian Gods and the Gods of the State, respect should also be shown to the Gods below; they should receive offerings in even numbers, second-rate choices, and objects associated with ill omens, while odd numbers, first-rate choices, and items with good omens should be given to the Gods above by anyone aiming to properly express piety. After these Gods, a wise person will serve the spirits or demons, then the heroes, followed by private and ancestral Gods, who are worshipped according to the law in their designated sacred spaces. Next comes honor for living parents, to whom we owe the first and greatest debt, given that everything a person has comes from those who birthed and raised them; thus, they should do everything possible to care for them, first through their resources, then personal service, and lastly, with their spirit, in gratitude for the lifelong care and effort their parents invested in them during childhood, which they must now repay as their parents enter old age and need their help. Throughout life, one should never say or have said anything disrespectful to them, for the consequences of careless words can be severe; Nemesis, the messenger of justice, oversees such matters. When parents are upset and want to express their feelings in words or actions, one should yield to them, for a father who feels wronged by his son is understandably very angry. At their death, a modest funeral is best—neither exceeding traditional expenses nor falling short of the customary honors shown by previous generations to their parents. Furthermore, one should not forget to pay the annual tribute of respect to the dead, honoring them primarily by ensuring that nothing is overlooked that aids in their eternal remembrance, and giving a reasonable part of their wealth to the deceased. By doing this and living in this manner, we will earn our rewards from the Gods and those above us (i.e., the demons), and we will generally live in good hope. Regarding how a person should organize matters related to their descendants, relatives, friends, fellow citizens, the rites of hospitality instituted by Heaven, and the interactions that arise from these responsibilities, all aimed at enhancing and orderly managing one's own life—these aspects, I believe, the laws will handle as we progress with them, partly persuading and partly correcting those whose natures resist customary persuasion through might and right, thus making our state prosperous and happy if the Gods are in agreement with us. However, regarding what the legislator who shares my views must say, which would seem out of place if presented as a law—I think they can give a sample for their own understanding and for those to whom they are legislating; and only after covering all the preliminaries as best as possible, can they move on to the actual work of legislating. Now, what form will these prefaces take? It might be challenging to categorize or define them all under a single framework, but I believe we can grasp the essence of them if we can secure one thing.
CLEINIAS: What is that?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: I should wish the citizens to be as readily persuaded to virtue as possible; this will surely be the aim of the legislator in all his laws.
ATHENIAN: I want the citizens to be easily convinced to do the right thing; this will definitely be the goal of the legislator in all his laws.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: The proposal appears to me to be of some value; and I think that a person will listen with more gentleness and good-will to the precepts addressed to him by the legislator, when his soul is not altogether unprepared to receive them. Even a little done in the way of conciliation gains his ear, and is always worth having. For there is no great inclination or readiness on the part of mankind to be made as good, or as quickly good, as possible. The case of the many proves the wisdom of Hesiod, who says that the road to wickedness is smooth and can be travelled without perspiring, because it is so very short:
ATHENIAN: I think the proposal has some value; and I believe that a person will respond more kindly and openly to the advice given by the legislator when they're somewhat ready to accept it. Even a small gesture towards making peace catches their attention and is always beneficial. People aren’t very eager or willing to improve themselves or become good as quickly as they can. The situation of most people proves Hesiod's wisdom, who says that the path to wrongdoing is easy and can be traveled without effort because it's so short:
'But before virtue the immortal Gods have placed the sweat of labour, and long and steep is the way thither, and rugged at first; but when you have reached the top, although difficult before, it is then easy.' (Works and Days.)
'But before virtue, the immortal Gods have placed the effort of hard work, and the path to get there is long and steep at first; but once you reach the top, what was once difficult becomes easy.' (Works and Days.)
CLEINIAS: Yes; and he certainly speaks well.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, he definitely knows how to talk.
ATHENIAN: Very true: and now let me tell you the effect which the preceding discourse has had upon me.
ATHENIAN: That's absolutely right. Now, let me share how the previous conversation has impacted me.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Suppose that we have a little conversation with the legislator, and say to him—'O, legislator, speak; if you know what we ought to say and do, you can surely tell.'
ATHENIAN: Let's have a brief chat with the legislator and ask him—'Hey, legislator, please say something; if you know what we should say and do, you can definitely tell us.'
CLEINIAS: Of course he can.
CLEINIAS: Of course he can.
ATHENIAN: 'Did we not hear you just now saying, that the legislator ought not to allow the poets to do what they liked? For that they would not know in which of their words they went against the laws, to the hurt of the state.'
ATHENIAN: 'Did we not just hear you say that the legislator shouldn’t let the poets do whatever they want? Because they wouldn’t realize when their words go against the laws, which would harm the state.'
CLEINIAS: That is true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: May we not fairly make answer to him on behalf of the poets?
ATHENIAN: Can we not fairly respond to him on behalf of the poets?
CLEINIAS: What answer shall we make to him?
CLEINIAS: What should we say to him?
ATHENIAN: That the poet, according to the tradition which has ever prevailed among us, and is accepted of all men, when he sits down on the tripod of the muse, is not in his right mind; like a fountain, he allows to flow out freely whatever comes in, and his art being imitative, he is often compelled to represent men of opposite dispositions, and thus to contradict himself; neither can he tell whether there is more truth in one thing that he has said than in another. This is not the case in a law; the legislator must give not two rules about the same thing, but one only. Take an example from what you have just been saying. Of three kinds of funerals, there is one which is too extravagant, another is too niggardly, the third in a mean; and you choose and approve and order the last without qualification. But if I had an extremely rich wife, and she bade me bury her and describe her burial in a poem, I should praise the extravagant sort; and a poor miserly man, who had not much money to spend, would approve of the niggardly; and the man of moderate means, who was himself moderate, would praise a moderate funeral. Now you in the capacity of legislator must not barely say 'a moderate funeral,' but you must define what moderation is, and how much; unless you are definite, you must not suppose that you are speaking a language that can become law.
ATHENIAN: According to the tradition that we all accept, when a poet sits down on the muse's tripod, he’s not in his right mind. Like a fountain, he lets whatever comes to him flow out freely, and because his art imitates life, he often has to portray people with different personalities, which makes him contradict himself. He can’t even tell if one thing he says is truer than another. This is different in law; a legislator must provide only one rule for the same issue, not two. For example, regarding funerals, there’s one type that’s too lavish, another that’s too cheap, and a third that’s just right; you choose and endorse the reasonable option without hesitation. But if I had a very wealthy wife and she asked me to bury her and write a poem about her funeral, I would praise the extravagant type; a poor miser might prefer the cheap option; and someone of average means would commend a moderate funeral. As a legislator, you can’t just say 'a moderate funeral.' You need to define what moderation means and how much is appropriate; if you’re not specific, you can’t expect to be understood as making a law.
CLEINIAS: Certainly not.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: And is our legislator to have no preface to his laws, but to say at once Do this, avoid that—and then holding the penalty in terrorem, to go on to another law; offering never a word of advice or exhortation to those for whom he is legislating, after the manner of some doctors? For of doctors, as I may remind you, some have a gentler, others a ruder method of cure; and as children ask the doctor to be gentle with them, so we will ask the legislator to cure our disorders with the gentlest remedies. What I mean to say is, that besides doctors there are doctors' servants, who are also styled doctors.
ATHENIAN: So, is our legislator just going to jump straight into his laws without any introduction, saying things like "Do this" or "Avoid that," and then move on to the next law while threatening penalties? He doesn’t offer any advice or encouragement to the people he’s making laws for, like some doctors do? Because, as you might remember, some doctors are gentler in their approach while others can be much harsher. Just like how children ask doctors to be gentle, we want our legislator to address our issues using the gentlest methods possible. What I’m getting at is, aside from actual doctors, there are also those who work for them and are called doctors too.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And whether they are slaves or freemen makes no difference; they acquire their knowledge of medicine by obeying and observing their masters; empirically and not according to the natural way of learning, as the manner of freemen is, who have learned scientifically themselves the art which they impart scientifically to their pupils. You are aware that there are these two classes of doctors?
ATHENIAN: It doesn’t matter if they are slaves or free; they learn medicine by following and watching their masters, based on experience, not the natural way of learning. This is different from how free people learn, who understand the art scientifically themselves and teach it scientifically to their students. You know there are these two types of doctors, right?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And did you ever observe that there are two classes of patients in states, slaves and freemen; and the slave doctors run about and cure the slaves, or wait for them in the dispensaries—practitioners of this sort never talk to their patients individually, or let them talk about their own individual complaints? The slave doctor prescribes what mere experience suggests, as if he had exact knowledge; and when he has given his orders, like a tyrant, he rushes off with equal assurance to some other servant who is ill; and so he relieves the master of the house of the care of his invalid slaves. But the other doctor, who is a freeman, attends and practices upon freemen; and he carries his enquiries far back, and goes into the nature of the disorder; he enters into discourse with the patient and with his friends, and is at once getting information from the sick man, and also instructing him as far as he is able, and he will not prescribe for him until he has first convinced him; at last, when he has brought the patient more and more under his persuasive influences and set him on the road to health, he attempts to effect a cure. Now which is the better way of proceeding in a physician and in a trainer? Is he the better who accomplishes his ends in a double way, or he who works in one way, and that the ruder and inferior?
ATHENIAN: Have you noticed that there are two types of patients in societies: slaves and free people? The slave doctors hurry around treating the slaves or wait for them in the clinics—these doctors never talk to their patients personally or let them share their specific issues. The slave doctor relies on his experience, acting like he has all the knowledge; once he gives his orders, like a tyrant, he swiftly moves on to the next sick servant. This way, he frees the homeowner from worrying about their sick slaves. On the other hand, the free doctor treats free patients. He digs deep into their conditions and engages in discussions with both the patient and their friends, gathering information while also educating the patient as much as he can. He won’t suggest a treatment until he has first convinced the patient. Eventually, when he has persuaded the patient and set them on the path to recovery, he tries to cure them. So, which approach is better for a physician or a trainer? Is it better to achieve results in two ways, or to rely on a single, less effective method?
CLEINIAS: I should say, Stranger, that the double way is far better.
CLEINIAS: I have to say, Stranger, that the two paths are much better.
ATHENIAN: Should you like to see an example of the double and single method in legislation?
ATHENIAN: Would you like to see an example of the double and single method in law-making?
CLEINIAS: Certainly I should.
CLEINIAS: Of course I should.
ATHENIAN: What will be our first law? Will not the legislator, observing the order of nature, begin by making regulations for states about births?
ATHENIAN: What will our first law be? Won't the lawmaker, observing the natural order, start by creating rules for states regarding births?
CLEINIAS: He will.
He will.
ATHENIAN: In all states the birth of children goes back to the connexion of marriage?
ATHENIAN: In all societies, the arrival of children is linked to marriage, right?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And, according to the true order, the laws relating to marriage should be those which are first determined in every state?
ATHENIAN: So, should the laws about marriage be the ones that are established first in every state?
CLEINIAS: Quite so.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Then let me first give the law of marriage in a simple form; it may run as follows:—A man shall marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five, or, if he does not, he shall pay such and such a fine, or shall suffer the loss of such and such privileges. This would be the simple law about marriage. The double law would run thus:—A man shall marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five, considering that in a manner the human race naturally partakes of immortality, which every man is by nature inclined to desire to the utmost; for the desire of every man that he may become famous, and not lie in the grave without a name, is only the love of continuance. Now mankind are coeval with all time, and are ever following, and will ever follow, the course of time; and so they are immortal, because they leave children's children behind them, and partake of immortality in the unity of generation. And for a man voluntarily to deprive himself of this gift, as he deliberately does who will not have a wife or children, is impiety. He who obeys the law shall be free, and shall pay no fine; but he who is disobedient, and does not marry, when he has arrived at the age of thirty-five, shall pay a yearly fine of a certain amount, in order that he may not imagine his celibacy to bring ease and profit to him; and he shall not share in the honours which the young men in the state give to the aged. Comparing now the two forms of the law, you will be able to arrive at a judgment about any other laws—whether they should be double in length even when shortest, because they have to persuade as well as threaten, or whether they shall only threaten and be of half the length.
ATHENIAN: Let me first outline the law of marriage in a straightforward way: A man must marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five, or if he doesn’t, he will face a specific fine or lose certain privileges. That’s the basic law about marriage. The more detailed law would state: A man must marry between the ages of thirty and thirty-five, considering that humanity naturally seeks a form of immortality, which everyone inherently desires. This desire for fame and to avoid being forgotten is just the longing for continuation. Humanity exists with the passage of time, always pursuing its course, and thus they are immortal because they leave behind descendants and share in immortality through generations. To willingly give up this gift, as someone does when they choose not to have a wife or children, is an act of impiety. Those who follow the law will be free and won’t have to pay a fine; however, those who disobey and don’t marry by the age of thirty-five will pay an annual fine to discourage them from thinking that being single brings ease and benefit. They also won’t participate in the honors that younger citizens give to the elderly. By comparing these two versions of the law, you can judge any other laws—whether they should be twice as long even at their shortest, since they need to persuade as well as threaten, or whether they should only threaten and be half as long.
MEGILLUS: The shorter form, Stranger, would be more in accordance with Lacedaemonian custom; although, for my own part, if any one were to ask me which I myself prefer in the state, I should certainly determine in favour of the longer; and I would have every law made after the same pattern, if I had to choose. But I think that Cleinias is the person to be consulted, for his is the state which is going to use these laws.
MEGILLUS: The shorter version, Stranger, would fit better with Lacedaemonian custom; however, personally, if someone were to ask me which I prefer for our state, I would definitely choose the longer version. I would want every law to follow the same pattern if I had a choice. But I believe we should consult Cleinias, since it's his state that will be using these laws.
CLEINIAS: Thank you, Megillus.
Thanks, Megillus.
ATHENIAN: Whether, in the abstract, words are to be many or few, is a very foolish question; the best form, and not the shortest, is to be approved; nor is length at all to be regarded. Of the two forms of law which have been recited, the one is not only twice as good in practical usefulness as the other, but the case is like that of the two kinds of doctors, which I was just now mentioning. And yet legislators never appear to have considered that they have two instruments which they might use in legislation—persuasion and force; for in dealing with the rude and uneducated multitude, they use the one only as far as they can; they do not mingle persuasion with coercion, but employ force pure and simple. Moreover, there is a third point, sweet friends, which ought to be, and never is, regarded in our existing laws.
ATHENIAN: Whether words should be many or few is a very silly question; the best form, not the shortest one, should be favored; length shouldn't matter at all. Of the two types of laws we've talked about, one is not just twice as effective as the other, but it’s similar to the comparison I made earlier about two kinds of doctors. Yet, lawmakers don’t seem to recognize that they have two tools for legislation—persuasion and force. When dealing with the rough and uneducated masses, they only use one as much as they can; they don’t mix persuasion with coercion, but rely solely on force. Additionally, there’s a third aspect, dear friends, that should be considered but never is in our current laws.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's going on?
ATHENIAN: A point arising out of our previous discussion, which comes into my mind in some mysterious way. All this time, from early dawn until noon, have we been talking about laws in this charming retreat: now we are going to promulgate our laws, and what has preceded was only the prelude of them. Why do I mention this? For this reason:—Because all discourses and vocal exercises have preludes and overtures, which are a sort of artistic beginnings intended to help the strain which is to be performed; lyric measures and music of every other kind have preludes framed with wonderful care. But of the truer and higher strain of law and politics, no one has ever yet uttered any prelude, or composed or published any, as though there was no such thing in nature. Whereas our present discussion seems to me to imply that there is;—these double laws, of which we were speaking, are not exactly double, but they are in two parts, the law and the prelude of the law. The arbitrary command, which was compared to the commands of doctors, whom we described as of the meaner sort, was the law pure and simple; and that which preceded, and was described by our friend here as being hortatory only, was, although in fact, an exhortation, likewise analogous to the preamble of a discourse. For I imagine that all this language of conciliation, which the legislator has been uttering in the preface of the law, was intended to create good-will in the person whom he addressed, in order that, by reason of this good-will, he might more intelligently receive his command, that is to say, the law. And therefore, in my way of speaking, this is more rightly described as the preamble than as the matter of the law. And I must further proceed to observe, that to all his laws, and to each separately, the legislator should prefix a preamble; he should remember how great will be the difference between them, according as they have, or have not, such preambles, as in the case already given.
ATHENIAN: A point from our earlier discussion has come to mind in a somewhat mysterious way. We've been talking about laws in this lovely place from dawn until noon; now we are going to announce our laws, and everything before this was just the introduction. Why do I bring this up? For this reason: all speeches and verbal performances have introductions and prefaces, which serve as artistic starts meant to enhance what is to follow; lyrical compositions and all kinds of music have meticulously crafted introductions. However, regarding the more genuine and profound realm of law and politics, no one has ever given an introduction or created one, as if such a thing doesn't exist. Yet our current talk suggests otherwise; the double laws we've discussed aren't actually double but have two parts: the law and the law's introduction. The arbitrary command we compared to those of lesser doctors was simply the law itself, while what came before, which our friend described as just encouraging, was really an exhortation, similar to a preamble of a speech. I believe all this conciliatory language from the legislator in the law's introduction was meant to foster goodwill in the person addressed, so that this goodwill would help them understand the command better, which is the law. So, I say this is more accurately called a preamble than part of the law itself. I must add that for every law and each one individually, the legislator should include a preamble; he should be aware of how significant the difference will be, depending on whether or not such preambles are included, like in the case I just mentioned.
CLEINIAS: The lawgiver, if he asks my opinion, will certainly legislate in the form which you advise.
CLEINIAS: If the lawgiver asks for my opinion, he will definitely create laws based on your advice.
ATHENIAN: I think that you are right, Cleinias, in affirming that all laws have preambles, and that throughout the whole of this work of legislation every single law should have a suitable preamble at the beginning; for that which is to follow is most important, and it makes all the difference whether we clearly remember the preambles or not. Yet we should be wrong in requiring that all laws, small and great alike, should have preambles of the same kind, any more than all songs or speeches; although they may be natural to all, they are not always necessary, and whether they are to be employed or not has in each case to be left to the judgment of the speaker or the musician, or, in the present instance, of the lawgiver.
ATHENIAN: I think you're right, Cleinias, in saying that all laws have preambles, and that in this whole legislative process, every law should have an appropriate preamble at the beginning; because what follows is really important, and it makes a big difference whether we clearly remember the preamble or not. However, we would be mistaken to insist that all laws, big and small, should have the same type of preambles, just like we wouldn't expect all songs or speeches to be the same; while they may be natural for everyone, they aren't always necessary, and whether to include them or not should be up to the judgment of the speaker or the musician, or in this case, the lawmaker.
CLEINIAS: That I think is most true. And now, Stranger, without delay let us return to the argument, and, as people say in play, make a second and better beginning, if you please, with the principles which we have been laying down, which we never thought of regarding as a preamble before, but of which we may now make a preamble, and not merely consider them to be chance topics of discourse. Let us acknowledge, then, that we have a preamble. About the honour of the Gods and the respect of parents, enough has been already said; and we may proceed to the topics which follow next in order, until the preamble is deemed by you to be complete; and after that you shall go through the laws themselves.
CLEINIAS: I think that's definitely true. Now, Stranger, let’s get back to our discussion without wasting any time, and as people say in theater, let’s start fresh with a stronger foundation, if you don’t mind, based on the principles we’ve already established. We never considered these as our introduction before, but now we can treat them as such instead of just random talking points. So, let’s agree that we have an introduction. We’ve talked enough about the honor of the Gods and respecting parents, so let’s move on to the next topics in line until you think our introduction is complete; then, we can go through the laws themselves.
ATHENIAN: I understand you to mean that we have made a sufficient preamble about Gods and demigods, and about parents living or dead; and now you would have us bring the rest of the subject into the light of day?
ATHENIAN: I take it you mean we've talked enough about gods and demigods, as well as parents, whether they're alive or gone; and now you want us to bring the rest of the topic into the open?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: After this, as is meet and for the interest of us all, I the speaker, and you the listeners, will try to estimate all that relates to the souls and bodies and properties of the citizens, as regards both their occupations and amusements, and thus arrive, as far as in us lies, at the nature of education. These then are the topics which follow next in order.
ATHENIAN: After this, as is proper and for everyone's benefit, I, the speaker, and you, the audience, will try to evaluate everything that concerns the souls, bodies, and possessions of the citizens regarding their jobs and pastimes. This will help us, as much as we can, understand the nature of education. These are the topics we will discuss next.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
BOOK V.
ATHENIAN: Listen, all ye who have just now heard the laws about Gods, and about our dear forefathers:—Of all the things which a man has, next to the Gods, his soul is the most divine and most truly his own. Now in every man there are two parts: the better and superior, which rules, and the worse and inferior, which serves; and the ruling part of him is always to be preferred to the subject. Wherefore I am right in bidding every one next to the Gods, who are our masters, and those who in order follow them (i.e. the demons), to honour his own soul, which every one seems to honour, but no one honours as he ought; for honour is a divine good, and no evil thing is honourable; and he who thinks that he can honour the soul by word or gift, or any sort of compliance, without making her in any way better, seems to honour her, but honours her not at all. For example, every man, from his very boyhood, fancies that he is able to know everything, and thinks that he honours his soul by praising her, and he is very ready to let her do whatever she may like. But I mean to say that in acting thus he injures his soul, and is far from honouring her; whereas, in our opinion, he ought to honour her as second only to the Gods. Again, when a man thinks that others are to be blamed, and not himself, for the errors which he has committed from time to time, and the many and great evils which befell him in consequence, and is always fancying himself to be exempt and innocent, he is under the idea that he is honouring his soul; whereas the very reverse is the fact, for he is really injuring her. And when, disregarding the word and approval of the legislator, he indulges in pleasure, then again he is far from honouring her; he only dishonours her, and fills her full of evil and remorse; or when he does not endure to the end the labours and fears and sorrows and pains which the legislator approves, but gives way before them, then, by yielding, he does not honour the soul, but by all such conduct he makes her to be dishonourable; nor when he thinks that life at any price is a good, does he honour her, but yet once more he dishonours her; for the soul having a notion that the world below is all evil, he yields to her, and does not resist and teach or convince her that, for aught she knows, the world of the Gods below, instead of being evil, may be the greatest of all goods. Again, when any one prefers beauty to virtue, what is this but the real and utter dishonour of the soul? For such a preference implies that the body is more honourable than the soul; and this is false, for there is nothing of earthly birth which is more honourable than the heavenly, and he who thinks otherwise of the soul has no idea how greatly he undervalues this wonderful possession; nor, again, when a person is willing, or not unwilling, to acquire dishonest gains, does he then honour his soul with gifts—far otherwise; he sells her glory and honour for a small piece of gold; but all the gold which is under or upon the earth is not enough to give in exchange for virtue. In a word, I may say that he who does not estimate the base and evil, the good and noble, according to the standard of the legislator, and abstain in every possible way from the one and practise the other to the utmost of his power, does not know that in all these respects he is most foully and disgracefully abusing his soul, which is the divinest part of man; for no one, as I may say, ever considers that which is declared to be the greatest penalty of evil-doing—namely, to grow into the likeness of bad men, and growing like them to fly from the conversation of the good, and be cut off from them, and cleave to and follow after the company of the bad. And he who is joined to them must do and suffer what such men by nature do and say to one another,—a suffering which is not justice but retribution; for justice and the just are noble, whereas retribution is the suffering which waits upon injustice; and whether a man escape or endure this, he is miserable,—in the former case, because he is not cured; while in the latter, he perishes in order that the rest of mankind may be saved.
ATHENIAN: Listen, everyone who has just heard the laws about the Gods and our beloved ancestors: Of all the things a person has, next to the Gods, their soul is the most sacred and truly their own. Every person has two parts: the better and superior part that rules, and the worse and inferior part that serves; and the ruling part should always be preferred to the subject. Therefore, I am right to say that everyone, after the Gods who are our masters and those who follow them (the demons), should honor their own soul. Everyone seems to honor it, but no one honors it as they should; because honor is a divine good, and no evil is honorable. Someone who thinks they can honor their soul through words, gifts, or any kind of compliance without making it better is mistaken— they may think they're honoring it, but they are not at all. For instance, every person, from childhood, believes they can know everything and thinks they're honoring their soul by praising it, eagerly letting it do whatever it wants. But in doing so, they harm their soul rather than honor it; in our view, they should honor it as second only to the Gods. Additionally, when a person believes others should be blamed, not themselves, for the mistakes they’ve made and the many misfortunes that follow, and always sees themselves as innocent, they think they’re honoring their soul—but this is actually the opposite, as they are truly harming it. When they ignore the words and approval of the lawgiver and give in to pleasure, they are again far from honoring it; they just dishonor it, filling it with evil and remorse. Or, when they can't endure the struggles, fears, sorrow, and pain that the lawgiver supports, and they give in, they do not honor the soul. By yielding, they make it dishonorable; nor do they honor it when they believe that life is good at any cost; once again, they dishonor it. Since the soul believes that the world below is all evil, they give in instead of resisting and teaching it that, for all it knows, the world of the Gods below may actually be the greatest good. Furthermore, when someone prefers beauty over virtue, isn't that a true dishonor to the soul? Such a choice suggests that the body is more valuable than the soul; this is wrong; nothing earthly is more honorable than the heavenly. A person who thinks differently has no clue how much they undervalue this incredible possession. And when someone is willing, or not unwilling, to gain dishonest profits, they certainly do not honor their soul with gifts—quite the opposite; they sell their glory and honor for a mere bit of gold. But all the gold in the world can't compare to the value of virtue. In short, I can say that anyone who does not assess good and evil based on the standard set by the lawgiver, avoiding the former and practicing the latter to the best of their ability, does not realize how disgracefully they are abusing their soul, the most divine part of a person. After all, no one seems to consider the greatest penalty of wrongdoing— to become like bad people, to distance themselves from good company, and to cling to and follow the company of the wicked. Those who join them must do and endure what such people naturally do and say to each other— a suffering that is not justice but retribution; for justice and the just are noble, while retribution is simply the consequence of injustice. Whether someone escapes or endures this, they are still miserable— in the former case, because they aren’t healed; in the latter, they suffer so that the rest of humanity might be saved.
Speaking generally, our glory is to follow the better and improve the inferior, which is susceptible of improvement, as far as this is possible. And of all human possessions, the soul is by nature most inclined to avoid the evil, and track out and find the chief good; which when a man has found, he should take up his abode with it during the remainder of his life. Wherefore the soul also is second (or next to God) in honour; and third, as every one will perceive, comes the honour of the body in natural order. Having determined this, we have next to consider that there is a natural honour of the body, and that of honours some are true and some are counterfeit. To decide which are which is the business of the legislator; and he, I suspect, would intimate that they are as follows:—Honour is not to be given to the fair body, or to the strong or the swift or the tall, or to the healthy body (although many may think otherwise), any more than to their opposites; but the mean states of all these habits are by far the safest and most moderate; for the one extreme makes the soul braggart and insolent, and the other, illiberal and base; and money, and property, and distinction all go to the same tune. The excess of any of these things is apt to be a source of hatreds and divisions among states and individuals; and the defect of them is commonly a cause of slavery. And, therefore, I would not have any one fond of heaping up riches for the sake of his children, in order that he may leave them as rich as possible. For the possession of great wealth is of no use, either to them or to the state. The condition of youth which is free from flattery, and at the same time not in need of the necessaries of life, is the best and most harmonious of all, being in accord and agreement with our nature, and making life to be most entirely free from sorrow. Let parents, then, bequeath to their children not a heap of riches, but the spirit of reverence. We, indeed, fancy that they will inherit reverence from us, if we rebuke them when they show a want of reverence. But this quality is not really imparted to them by the present style of admonition, which only tells them that the young ought always to be reverential. A sensible legislator will rather exhort the elders to reverence the younger, and above all to take heed that no young man sees or hears one of themselves doing or saying anything disgraceful; for where old men have no shame, there young men will most certainly be devoid of reverence. The best way of training the young is to train yourself at the same time; not to admonish them, but to be always carrying out your own admonitions in practice. He who honours his kindred, and reveres those who share in the same Gods and are of the same blood and family, may fairly expect that the Gods who preside over generation will be propitious to him, and will quicken his seed. And he who deems the services which his friends and acquaintances do for him, greater and more important than they themselves deem them, and his own favours to them less than theirs to him, will have their good-will in the intercourse of life. And surely in his relations to the state and his fellow citizens, he is by far the best, who rather than the Olympic or any other victory of peace or war, desires to win the palm of obedience to the laws of his country, and who, of all mankind, is the person reputed to have obeyed them best through life. In his relations to strangers, a man should consider that a contract is a most holy thing, and that all concerns and wrongs of strangers are more directly dependent on the protection of God, than wrongs done to citizens; for the stranger, having no kindred and friends, is more to be pitied by Gods and men. Wherefore, also, he who is most able to avenge him is most zealous in his cause; and he who is most able is the genius and the god of the stranger, who follow in the train of Zeus, the god of strangers. And for this reason, he who has a spark of caution in him, will do his best to pass through life without sinning against the stranger. And of offences committed, whether against strangers or fellow-countrymen, that against suppliants is the greatest. For the God who witnessed to the agreement made with the suppliant, becomes in a special manner the guardian of the sufferer; and he will certainly not suffer unavenged.
Generally speaking, our purpose is to pursue what’s better and improve what can be improved, as much as possible. Among all human possessions, the soul is naturally most inclined to avoid evil and seek out the greatest good; once a person finds it, they should embrace it for the rest of their life. Therefore, the soul holds second place in honor (after God), and third comes the honor of the body in the natural order. Having established this, we must now recognize that there is a natural honor for the body, and that some honors are genuine while others are fake. Determining which is which falls to the legislator, who would likely indicate that honor shouldn't be given to just a beautiful body, a strong one, a fast one, a tall one, or a healthy one (even if many believe otherwise), any more than to their opposites; rather, the moderate states of these qualities are the safest and most balanced. One extreme leads to vanity and arrogance, and the other to meanness and inferiority; the same pattern applies to wealth, possessions, and social status. Excess in any of these areas tends to create divisions and hostility among individuals and communities, while lacking them often leads to forms of oppression. Therefore, I advise against accumulating wealth solely for one’s children, to leave them as rich as possible. Great wealth is of little benefit to them or the community. The best phase of youth, free from flattery and lacking the basic necessities of life, is the most harmonious, aligning with our nature and minimizing sorrow. Let parents leave their children not a pile of riches, but a sense of respect. We think they will inherit respect from us if we criticize them for lacking it. However, this quality cannot simply be instilled through admonishment, which merely states that the young should be respectful. A wise legislator would encourage elders to show respect to the young, and to ensure that no young person sees or hears them behaving disgracefully; for where elders lack shame, young people will undoubtedly lack respect. The best way to educate the young is to also train ourselves, not just preach at them, but to consistently live out our own advice. Those who honor their relatives and respect those who share the same gods, blood, and family can reasonably expect favorable outcomes from the deities who oversee lineage. And anyone who values the help from friends and acquaintances more than they do, while considering their own contributions as less important than those of others, will have their goodwill in life’s interactions. Certainly, in relation to the state and fellow citizens, the best person is one who, instead of seeking glory through Olympic triumphs or victories in war, strives to earn praise for obeying the laws of their country, and is regarded by all as someone who has lived in accordance with them. When it comes to dealings with strangers, one should recognize that a contract is a sacred bond, and that the issues and wrongs affecting strangers are more directly under the protection of the divine than those affecting citizens; for a stranger, lacking family and friends, deserves greater sympathy from gods and humans alike. Thus, the one most capable of providing justice takes a passionate interest in their case; and the one most capable is the spirit and deity of the stranger, who accompany Zeus, the god of strangers. For this reason, anyone with a hint of caution should strive to navigate life without offending strangers. Among all offenses, those against supplicants are the most serious. For the god who witnesses the agreement made with the supplicant uniquely becomes their protector, ensuring that the offense won't go unpunished.
Thus we have fairly described the manner in which a man is to act about his parents, and himself, and his own affairs; and in relation to the state, and his friends, and kindred, both in what concerns his own countrymen, and in what concerns the stranger. We will now consider what manner of man he must be who would best pass through life in respect of those other things which are not matters of law, but of praise and blame only; in which praise and blame educate a man, and make him more tractable and amenable to the laws which are about to be imposed.
So, we've clearly outlined how a person should interact with their parents, themselves, and their own responsibilities; in relation to the community, their friends, and family, both concerning their own countrymen and regarding outsiders. Now, let's explore what kind of person they should be to navigate life effectively concerning those aspects that aren’t legally mandated but are instead about reputation and judgment; in these areas, praise and blame can shape a person, making them more receptive to the laws that will be applied.
Truth is the beginning of every good thing, both to Gods and men; and he who would be blessed and happy, should be from the first a partaker of the truth, that he may live a true man as long as possible, for then he can be trusted; but he is not to be trusted who loves voluntary falsehood, and he who loves involuntary falsehood is a fool. Neither condition is enviable, for the untrustworthy and ignorant has no friend, and as time advances he becomes known, and lays up in store for himself isolation in crabbed age when life is on the wane: so that, whether his children or friends are alive or not, he is equally solitary.—Worthy of honour is he who does no injustice, and of more than twofold honour, if he not only does no injustice himself, but hinders others from doing any; the first may count as one man, the second is worth many men, because he informs the rulers of the injustice of others. And yet more highly to be esteemed is he who co-operates with the rulers in correcting the citizens as far as he can—he shall be proclaimed the great and perfect citizen, and bear away the palm of virtue. The same praise may be given about temperance and wisdom, and all other goods which may be imparted to others, as well as acquired by a man for himself; he who imparts them shall be honoured as the man of men, and he who is willing, yet is not able, may be allowed the second place; but he who is jealous and will not, if he can help, allow others to partake in a friendly way of any good, is deserving of blame: the good, however, which he has, is not to be undervalued by us because it is possessed by him, but must be acquired by us also to the utmost of our power. Let every man, then, freely strive for the prize of virtue, and let there be no envy. For the unenvious nature increases the greatness of states—he himself contends in the race, blasting the fair fame of no man; but the envious, who thinks that he ought to get the better by defaming others, is less energetic himself in the pursuit of true virtue, and reduces his rivals to despair by his unjust slanders of them. And so he makes the whole city to enter the arena untrained in the practice of virtue, and diminishes her glory as far as in him lies. Now every man should be valiant, but he should also be gentle. From the cruel, or hardly curable, or altogether incurable acts of injustice done to him by others, a man can only escape by fighting and defending himself and conquering, and by never ceasing to punish them; and no man who is not of a noble spirit is able to accomplish this. As to the actions of those who do evil, but whose evil is curable, in the first place, let us remember that the unjust man is not unjust of his own free will. For no man of his own free will would choose to possess the greatest of evils, and least of all in the most honourable part of himself. And the soul, as we said, is of a truth deemed by all men the most honourable. In the soul, then, which is the most honourable part of him, no one, if he could help, would admit, or allow to continue the greatest of evils (compare Republic). The unrighteous and vicious are always to be pitied in any case; and one can afford to forgive as well as pity him who is curable, and refrain and calm one's anger, not getting into a passion, like a woman, and nursing ill-feeling. But upon him who is incapable of reformation and wholly evil, the vials of our wrath should be poured out; wherefore I say that good men ought, when occasion demands, to be both gentle and passionate.
Truth is the foundation of every good thing, for both gods and humans. Anyone who wants to be blessed and happy should first embrace the truth so that they can live as a genuinely good person for as long as possible, because then they can be trusted. However, someone who loves to lie on purpose cannot be trusted, and someone who lies without realizing it is foolish. Both situations are not desirable, since the untrustworthy and ignorant have no friends, and as time goes on, they reveal themselves and end up alone in a grumpy old age when life is winding down. Whether or not their children or friends are around, they are equally solitary. A person who does no wrong deserves respect, and is even more respectable if they not only avoid injustice themselves but also prevent others from doing wrong. The first can be valued as one person, but the second is worth many because they inform those in power about the wrongdoings of others. Even more admirable is someone who works with leaders to help guide citizens toward better behavior as much as they can; they will be celebrated as an outstanding and virtuous citizen. The same recognition can be given to those who promote self-control, wisdom, and any other good qualities. Those who share these virtues will be honored as the best among people, while those who wish to help but aren’t able may still hold a secondary place. However, those who are jealous and, when able, deny others the opportunity to enjoy good things are deserving of criticism. Yet, we should not underestimate the good they have simply because they possess it; we must strive to acquire it ourselves to the best of our ability. So, let everyone freely pursue the goal of virtue without envy. An envious nature diminishes the greatness of society—such a person competes in the race while tearing down the reputations of others. In contrast, the non-envious person focuses on their own efforts, contributing to the growth of virtue in society. The envious individual, who thinks they can get ahead by slandering others, lacks the energy to pursue true virtue and discourages their rivals with unjust accusations. This harms the community by keeping everyone from training in virtue and weakening its overall greatness. Every person should be courageous while also being kind. When faced with cruel or unforgiving injustices from others, the only way to escape is to fight back, defend oneself, and overcome, continuing to punish those who wronged them. Only someone with a noble spirit can do this. Regarding those who do wrong but can change, we must remember that no one chooses to be unjust willingly. No one would willingly choose the greatest evil, especially in the most honorable aspect of themselves—their soul, which is viewed as the most honorable part by all people. Therefore, in the soul—the most honorable part of a person—no one would willingly accept or allow the greatest evils to persist. The unjust and wicked should be pitied, and we can afford to forgive and feel sympathy for those who can change, controlling our anger and avoiding excessive passion. However, we should direct our anger toward those who are irredeemably evil. Hence, I believe that good people should sometimes be both gentle and passionate when the situation calls for it.
Of all evils the greatest is one which in the souls of most men is innate, and which a man is always excusing in himself and never correcting; I mean, what is expressed in the saying that 'Every man by nature is and ought to be his own friend.' Whereas the excessive love of self is in reality the source to each man of all offences; for the lover is blinded about the beloved, so that he judges wrongly of the just, the good, and the honourable, and thinks that he ought always to prefer himself to the truth. But he who would be a great man ought to regard, not himself or his interests, but what is just, whether the just act be his own or that of another. Through a similar error men are induced to fancy that their own ignorance is wisdom, and thus we who may be truly said to know nothing, think that we know all things; and because we will not let others act for us in what we do not know, we are compelled to act amiss ourselves. Wherefore let every man avoid excess of self-love, and condescend to follow a better man than himself, not allowing any false shame to stand in the way. There are also minor precepts which are often repeated, and are quite as useful; a man should recollect them and remind himself of them. For when a stream is flowing out, there should be water flowing in too; and recollection flows in while wisdom is departing. Therefore I say that a man should refrain from excess either of laughter or tears, and should exhort his neighbour to do the same; he should veil his immoderate sorrow or joy, and seek to behave with propriety, whether the genius of his good fortune remains with him, or whether at the crisis of his fate, when he seems to be mounting high and steep places, the Gods oppose him in some of his enterprises. Still he may ever hope, in the case of good men, that whatever afflictions are to befall them in the future God will lessen, and that present evils He will change for the better; and as to the goods which are the opposite of these evils, he will not doubt that they will be added to them, and that they will be fortunate. Such should be men's hopes, and such should be the exhortations with which they admonish one another, never losing an opportunity, but on every occasion distinctly reminding themselves and others of all these things, both in jest and earnest.
Of all the evils, the greatest one is something that most people naturally have within them, which they always excuse in themselves and never fix; I’m talking about what’s captured in the saying that 'Every person by nature is and should be their own friend.' However, an excessive love of self is actually the root of all wrongdoings for each person; because when someone loves too much, it clouds their judgment about what is just, good, and honorable, leading them to believe they should always prioritize themselves over the truth. But someone who wants to be a great person should focus not on themselves or their own interests, but on what is just, whether that act is their own or someone else's. Similarly, people often misjudge their ignorance as wisdom, so those of us who can truly be said to know nothing think we know everything; and since we refuse to let others handle what we don't understand, we’re forced to make mistakes ourselves. Therefore, everyone should steer clear of excessive self-love and be willing to follow someone better than themselves, not letting false shame hold them back. There are also smaller principles that are often repeated and are just as useful; a person should remember these and remind themselves of them. Just like when a stream is flowing out, there needs to be water flowing in as well; and recollection comes in while wisdom is fading. So, I say that a person should avoid extremes of laughter or tears and encourage their neighbors to do the same; they should hide their excessive sorrow or joy and strive to behave appropriately, whether their good fortune is with them or whether fate seems to be against them at critical moments. Still, they can always hope that for good people, whatever hardships come in the future, God will ease them, and that current troubles will be turned into something better; as for the good things opposing those troubles, they shouldn't doubt that they will come and that they will be fortunate. Such should be people’s hopes, and such should be the reminders with which they encourage each other, never missing an opportunity, but at every occasion clearly reminding themselves and others of all these things, in both fun and seriousness.
Enough has now been said of divine matters, both as touching the practices which men ought to follow, and as to the sort of persons who they ought severally to be. But of human things we have not as yet spoken, and we must; for to men we are discoursing and not to Gods. Pleasures and pains and desires are a part of human nature, and on them every mortal being must of necessity hang and depend with the most eager interest. And therefore we must praise the noblest life, not only as the fairest in appearance, but as being one which, if a man will only taste, and not, while still in his youth, desert for another, he will find to surpass also in the very thing which we all of us desire,—I mean in having a greater amount of pleasure and less of pain during the whole of life. And this will be plain, if a man has a true taste of them, as will be quickly and clearly seen. But what is a true taste? That we have to learn from the argument—the point being what is according to nature, and what is not according to nature. One life must be compared with another, the more pleasurable with the more painful, after this manner:—We desire to have pleasure, but we neither desire nor choose pain; and the neutral state we are ready to take in exchange, not for pleasure but for pain; and we also wish for less pain and greater pleasure, but less pleasure and greater pain we do not wish for; and an equal balance of either we cannot venture to assert that we should desire. And all these differ or do not differ severally in number and magnitude and intensity and equality, and in the opposites of these when regarded as objects of choice, in relation to desire. And such being the necessary order of things, we wish for that life in which there are many great and intense elements of pleasure and pain, and in which the pleasures are in excess, and do not wish for that in which the opposites exceed; nor, again, do we wish for that in which the elements of either are small and few and feeble, and the pains exceed. And when, as I said before, there is a balance of pleasure and pain in life, this is to be regarded by us as the balanced life; while other lives are preferred by us because they exceed in what we like, or are rejected by us because they exceed in what we dislike. All the lives of men may be regarded by us as bound up in these, and we must also consider what sort of lives we by nature desire. And if we wish for any others, I say that we desire them only through some ignorance and inexperience of the lives which actually exist.
We've talked enough about divine matters, both in terms of the practices people should follow and the type of people they should be. However, we haven't touched on human affairs yet, and we need to; we're speaking to humans, not to gods. Pleasures, pains, and desires are part of human nature, and every person naturally focuses intently on these. Therefore, we should celebrate the noblest life, not just because it looks the best, but because if someone truly embraces it and doesn't abandon it for something else while still young, they'll find it offers the most pleasure and the least pain throughout their lives. This will become clear if someone genuinely experiences them. But what does it mean to have a true experience? We need to understand this through our discussions, delving into what aligns with nature and what doesn’t. We need to compare one life to another, weighing the pleasurable against the painful in the following way: we want pleasure but not pain; we would accept a neutral state in exchange for pain, not pleasure; we prefer less pain and more pleasure, and we don’t wish for more pain and less pleasure. We can't even claim we desire a perfectly balanced amount of each. All these aspects differ in quantity, intensity, and quality, particularly when considered as options in relation to our desires. Given this natural order, we lean toward a life filled with many intense experiences of pleasure and pain, preferring those where pleasure outweighs pain, and we certainly don’t want lives where pain is more prominent or where both pleasure and pain are minimal. When, as I mentioned earlier, there is a balance of pleasure and pain in a life, we see it as a balanced life; we prefer other lives if they offer more of what we enjoy, or we reject those that have too much of what we dislike. The lives of all people can be viewed in this context, and we must also think about what kinds of lives we naturally prefer. If we desire other types, I argue that it's only because we lack knowledge or experience of the lives that truly exist.
Now, what lives are they, and how many in which, having searched out and beheld the objects of will and desire and their opposites, and making of them a law, choosing, I say, the dear and the pleasant and the best and noblest, a man may live in the happiest way possible? Let us say that the temperate life is one kind of life, and the rational another, and the courageous another, and the healthful another; and to these four let us oppose four other lives—the foolish, the cowardly, the intemperate, the diseased. He who knows the temperate life will describe it as in all things gentle, having gentle pains and gentle pleasures, and placid desires and loves not insane; whereas the intemperate life is impetuous in all things, and has violent pains and pleasures, and vehement and stinging desires, and loves utterly insane; and in the temperate life the pleasures exceed the pains, but in the intemperate life the pains exceed the pleasures in greatness and number and frequency. Hence one of the two lives is naturally and necessarily more pleasant and the other more painful, and he who would live pleasantly cannot possibly choose to live intemperately. And if this is true, the inference clearly is that no man is voluntarily intemperate; but that the whole multitude of men lack temperance in their lives, either from ignorance, or from want of self-control, or both. And the same holds of the diseased and healthy life; they both have pleasures and pains, but in health the pleasure exceeds the pain, and in sickness the pain exceeds the pleasure. Now our intention in choosing the lives is not that the painful should exceed, but the life in which pain is exceeded by pleasure we have determined to be the more pleasant life. And we should say that the temperate life has the elements both of pleasure and pain fewer and smaller and less frequent than the intemperate, and the wise life than the foolish life, and the life of courage than the life of cowardice; one of each pair exceeding in pleasure and the other in pain, the courageous surpassing the cowardly, and the wise exceeding the foolish. And so the one class of lives exceeds the other class in pleasure; the temperate and courageous and wise and healthy exceed the cowardly and foolish and intemperate and diseased lives; and generally speaking, that which has any virtue, whether of body or soul, is pleasanter than the vicious life, and far superior in beauty and rectitude and excellence and reputation, and causes him who lives accordingly to be infinitely happier than the opposite.
Now, what kinds of lives are there, and how many of them exist? After exploring and understanding the things we want, desire, and their opposites, we create a set of rules for ourselves. By choosing what is dear, enjoyable, best, and noble, how can someone live in the happiest way possible? Let’s say that the temperate life is one type of life, the rational another, the courageous another, and the healthy one more; and we'll set these four against four other lifestyles—the foolish, the cowardly, the intemperate, and the diseased. Someone who understands the temperate life would describe it as gentle all around, characterized by gentle pains and pleasures, calm desires, and loves that aren’t insane. In contrast, the intemperate life is impulsive in every aspect, with intense pains and pleasures, fierce and overwhelming desires, and loves that are completely irrational. In a temperate life, pleasures outweigh the pains, while in an intemperate life, pains surpass pleasures in intensity, number, and frequency. Thus, one of these two lives is naturally more enjoyable, while the other is more painful, and anyone who wants to live pleasantly can’t choose an intemperate life. If this is accurate, it follows that no one willingly chooses intemperance; rather, many people lack temperance in their lives due to ignorance, lack of self-control, or both. The same logic applies to healthy versus diseased lives; both experience pleasures and pains, but in health, pleasure surpasses pain, while in sickness, pain exceeds pleasure. Our aim in selecting these lives is not for the painful to dominate but rather to identify the life where pleasure exceeds pain, which we’ve decided is the more enjoyable life. We can say that the temperate life includes pleasures and pains that are fewer, smaller, and less frequent than in the intemperate life, just as the wise life has fewer and smaller pains and pleasures compared to the foolish life, and the courageous life surpasses the cowardly. Thus, one group of lives has more pleasure than the other group; the temperate, courageous, wise, and healthy lives exceed the cowardly, foolish, intemperate, and diseased lives. Generally speaking, any life that embodies virtue, be it physical or mental, is more pleasurable than a vicious life and is greatly superior in goodness, beauty, excellence, and reputation, leading those who live virtuous lives to be infinitely happier than those who do not.
Enough of the preamble; and now the laws should follow; or, to speak more correctly, an outline of them. As, then, in the case of a web or any other tissue, the warp and the woof cannot be made of the same materials (compare Statesman), but the warp is necessarily superior as being stronger, and having a certain character of firmness, whereas the woof is softer and has a proper degree of elasticity;—in a similar manner those who are to hold great offices in states, should be distinguished truly in each case from those who have been but slenderly proven by education. Let us suppose that there are two parts in the constitution of a state—one the creation of offices, the other the laws which are assigned to them to administer.
Enough of the introduction; now it's time for the laws to be presented, or more accurately, an outline of them. Just like in a fabric where the warp and the weft can't be made of the same materials (refer to Statesman), the warp is stronger and more stable while the weft is softer and more flexible. Similarly, those in high positions within a government should be clearly distinguished from those who lack substantial education. Let's assume there are two components in the structure of a government—one being the establishment of offices, and the other being the laws tasked to them for enforcement.
But, before all this, comes the following consideration:—The shepherd or herdsman, or breeder of horses or the like, when he has received his animals will not begin to train them until he has first purified them in a manner which befits a community of animals; he will divide the healthy and unhealthy, and the good breed and the bad breed, and will send away the unhealthy and badly bred to other herds, and tend the rest, reflecting that his labours will be vain and have no effect, either on the souls or bodies of those whom nature and ill nurture have corrupted, and that they will involve in destruction the pure and healthy nature and being of every other animal, if he should neglect to purify them. Now the case of other animals is not so important—they are only worth introducing for the sake of illustration; but what relates to man is of the highest importance; and the legislator should make enquiries, and indicate what is proper for each one in the way of purification and of any other procedure. Take, for example, the purification of a city—there are many kinds of purification, some easier and others more difficult; and some of them, and the best and most difficult of them, the legislator, if he be also a despot, may be able to effect; but the legislator, who, not being a despot, sets up a new government and laws, even if he attempt the mildest of purgations, may think himself happy if he can complete his work. The best kind of purification is painful, like similar cures in medicine, involving righteous punishment and inflicting death or exile in the last resort. For in this way we commonly dispose of great sinners who are incurable, and are the greatest injury of the whole state. But the milder form of purification is as follows:—when men who have nothing, and are in want of food, show a disposition to follow their leaders in an attack on the property of the rich—these, who are the natural plague of the state, are sent away by the legislator in a friendly spirit as far as he is able; and this dismissal of them is euphemistically termed a colony. And every legislator should contrive to do this at once. Our present case, however, is peculiar. For there is no need to devise any colony or purifying separation under the circumstances in which we are placed. But as, when many streams flow together from many sources, whether springs or mountain torrents, into a single lake, we ought to attend and take care that the confluent waters should be perfectly clear, and in order to effect this, should pump and draw off and divert impurities, so in every political arrangement there may be trouble and danger. But, seeing that we are now only discoursing and not acting, let our selection be supposed to be completed, and the desired purity attained. Touching evil men, who want to join and be citizens of our state, after we have tested them by every sort of persuasion and for a sufficient time, we will prevent them from coming; but the good we will to the utmost of our ability receive as friends with open arms.
But before all this, we should consider the following: The shepherd, herdsman, or horse breeder, when they receive their animals, won’t start training them until they’ve first purified them in a way that suits a community of animals. They will separate the healthy from the unhealthy and the good breed from the bad, sending the unhealthy and poorly bred animals away to other herds, taking care of the rest. They know their efforts will be wasted on those whose nature and poor upbringing have corrupted them, and that these corrupted individuals will harm the pure and healthy nature of all the other animals if they neglect to purify them. While the situation with other animals isn’t as critical—it's just used for illustration—what pertains to humans is of utmost importance. The legislator should investigate and determine what is appropriate for each person in terms of purification and other processes. For instance, consider the purification of a city—there are many types of purification, some easier and others more challenging. Some of the best and most challenging methods may be possible for a legislator who is also a despot; however, a legislator who isn’t a despot and establishes a new government and laws may be lucky to complete even the gentlest of purifications. The most effective purification is often painful, similar to tough medical treatments, involving just punishment and, as a last resort, death or exile. This is how we typically handle the worst offenders who are beyond help and are the biggest threat to the state. The gentler form of purification occurs when people who have nothing and are starving show a willingness to follow their leaders in attacking the property of the wealthy—those who are a natural plague to the state are sent away by the legislator as kindly as possible; this dismissal is euphemistically called a colony. Every legislator should aim to do this promptly. Our current situation is unique, though, because there’s no need to create a colony or separate for purification, given our circumstances. However, just as many streams flow together from various sources into a single lake, we must ensure that the combined waters are completely clear. To achieve this, we should pump out and redirect any impurities. Similarly, in any political setup, there may be problems and risks. But since we are only discussing and not acting right now, let’s assume our selection is finalized and the desired purity achieved. Regarding those ill-intentioned individuals who wish to become citizens of our state, after testing them with every kind of persuasion for a reasonable time, we will prevent their entry; however, we will welcome the good with open arms to the best of our ability.
Another piece of good fortune must not be forgotten, which, as we were saying, the Heraclid colony had, and which is also ours,—that we have escaped division of land and the abolition of debts; for these are always a source of dangerous contention, and a city which is driven by necessity to legislate upon such matters can neither allow the old ways to continue, nor yet venture to alter them. We must have recourse to prayers, so to speak, and hope that a slight change may be cautiously effected in a length of time. And such a change can be accomplished by those who have abundance of land, and having also many debtors, are willing, in a kindly spirit, to share with those who are in want, sometimes remitting and sometimes giving, holding fast in a path of moderation, and deeming poverty to be the increase of a man's desires and not the diminution of his property. For this is the great beginning of salvation to a state, and upon this lasting basis may be erected afterwards whatever political order is suitable under the circumstances; but if the change be based upon an unsound principle, the future administration of the country will be full of difficulties. That is a danger which, as I am saying, is escaped by us, and yet we had better say how, if we had not escaped, we might have escaped; and we may venture now to assert that no other way of escape, whether narrow or broad, can be devised but freedom from avarice and a sense of justice—upon this rock our city shall be built; for there ought to be no disputes among citizens about property. If there are quarrels of long standing among them, no legislator of any degree of sense will proceed a step in the arrangement of the state until they are settled. But that they to whom God has given, as He has to us, to be the founders of a new state as yet free from enmity—that they should create themselves enmities by their mode of distributing lands and houses, would be superhuman folly and wickedness.
Another important piece of luck shouldn't be overlooked, which, as we mentioned, the Heraclid colony experienced, and which is also ours—namely, that we have avoided land division and the cancellation of debts; because these always lead to serious conflict, and a city forced by necessity to regulate such issues can neither maintain the old ways nor dare to change them. We must rely on our hopes and pray, so to speak, for a minor change to be carefully implemented over time. Such a change can be made by those who possess ample land and have many debtors, willing to generously share with those in need, occasionally forgiving debts and sometimes giving assistance, all while sticking to a balanced approach, believing that poverty expands a person's desires rather than reducing their wealth. This is the essential foundation for the salvation of a state, and upon this sturdy base, any suitable political system can later be established; however, if the change is built on a weak principle, the future governance of the country will be filled with challenges. That is a risk we have avoided, and yet it’s worth discussing how, if we had not avoided it, we might have found a way out; and we can now confidently say that there is no other escape route, narrow or wide, except for freedom from greed and a sense of justice—on this foundation our city will be built; for there should be no disputes among citizens over property. If there are long-standing conflicts among them, no sensible legislator will move forward with organizing the state until those are resolved. But for those whom God has blessed, as He has blessed us, to be the founders of a new state free from animosity—that they should generate their own conflicts through how they distribute land and property would be an act of tremendous folly and wickedness.
How then can we rightly order the distribution of the land? In the first place, the number of the citizens has to be determined, and also the number and size of the divisions into which they will have to be formed; and the land and the houses will then have to be apportioned by us as fairly as we can. The number of citizens can only be estimated satisfactorily in relation to the territory and the neighbouring states. The territory must be sufficient to maintain a certain number of inhabitants in a moderate way of life—more than this is not required; and the number of citizens should be sufficient to defend themselves against the injustice of their neighbours, and also to give them the power of rendering efficient aid to their neighbours when they are wronged. After having taken a survey of their's and their neighbours' territory, we will determine the limits of them in fact as well as in theory. And now, let us proceed to legislate with a view to perfecting the form and outline of our state. The number of our citizens shall be 5040—this will be a convenient number; and these shall be owners of the land and protectors of the allotment. The houses and the land will be divided in the same way, so that every man may correspond to a lot. Let the whole number be first divided into two parts, and then into three; and the number is further capable of being divided into four or five parts, or any number of parts up to ten. Every legislator ought to know so much arithmetic as to be able to tell what number is most likely to be useful to all cities; and we are going to take that number which contains the greatest and most regular and unbroken series of divisions. The whole of number has every possible division, and the number 5040 can be divided by exactly fifty-nine divisors, and ten of these proceed without interval from one to ten: this will furnish numbers for war and peace, and for all contracts and dealings, including taxes and divisions of the land. These properties of number should be ascertained at leisure by those who are bound by law to know them; for they are true, and should be proclaimed at the foundation of the city, with a view to use. Whether the legislator is establishing a new state or restoring an old and decayed one, in respect of Gods and temples,—the temples which are to be built in each city, and the Gods or demi-gods after whom they are to be called,—if he be a man of sense, he will make no change in anything which the oracle of Delphi, or Dodona, or the God Ammon, or any ancient tradition has sanctioned in whatever manner, whether by apparitions or reputed inspiration of Heaven, in obedience to which mankind have established sacrifices in connexion with mystic rites, either originating on the spot, or derived from Tyrrhenia or Cyprus or some other place, and on the strength of which traditions they have consecrated oracles and images, and altars and temples, and portioned out a sacred domain for each of them. The least part of all these ought not to be disturbed by the legislator; but he should assign to the several districts some God, or demi-god, or hero, and, in the distribution of the soil, should give to these first their chosen domain and all things fitting, that the inhabitants of the several districts may meet at fixed times, and that they may readily supply their various wants, and entertain one another with sacrifices, and become friends and acquaintances; for there is no greater good in a state than that the citizens should be known to one another. When not light but darkness and ignorance of each other's characters prevails among them, no one will receive the honour of which he is deserving, or the power or the justice to which he is fairly entitled: wherefore, in every state, above all things, every man should take heed that he have no deceit in him, but that he be always true and simple; and that no deceitful person take any advantage of him.
How can we fairly organize the distribution of land? First, we need to determine the number of citizens, and also the number and size of the divisions they will be grouped into; then we will allocate the land and houses as fairly as we can. The number of citizens can only be accurately estimated in relation to the territory and neighboring states. The territory must be large enough to maintain a certain number of residents at a moderate standard of living—no more is necessary; and the citizen count should be enough to defend against injustice from their neighbors, while also having the ability to offer help to neighboring communities when they are wronged. After reviewing their territory and that of their neighbors, we will establish the actual and theoretical boundaries. Now, let’s move on to create laws to improve the structure and framework of our state. We will set the number of citizens at 5,040 — a practical figure; they will be landowners and guardians of the allotment. The houses and land will be divided in a similar way, ensuring that each person corresponds to a lot. Start by splitting the total into two parts, then into three; it can also be divided into four, five, or any number of parts up to ten. Every legislator should have enough arithmetic knowledge to determine what number is most beneficial for all cities; we will choose the number that allows for the largest and most regular series of divisions. The entire number can be divided in any way, and 5,040 can be divided by exactly fifty-nine divisors, with ten of them ranging from one to ten without interruption: this will provide numbers for both war and peace, as well as for contracts, transactions, taxes, and land divisions. Those bound by law to know these numerical properties should learn them carefully; they are true and should be declared at the city’s foundation for practical use. Whether the legislator is creating a new state or reviving an old one, with regard to gods and temples—the temples to be built in each city and the gods or demi-gods they will be named after—if he is sensible, he will not alter anything acknowledged by oracles from Delphi, Dodona, or the god Ammon, or any ancient traditions that have been established, whether through visions or believed divine inspiration, which have led people to create sacrifices linked to mystical rites, whether originating locally or brought from places like Tyrrhenia or Cyprus. On the basis of these traditions, they have consecrated oracles, images, altars, temples, and designated sacred lands for each. The legislator should not disturb even the smallest part of these; instead, he should assign a specific god, demi-god, or hero to each district, and when distributing the land, ensure they receive their designated area and suitable provisions first, so that residents can gather regularly, fulfill each other's needs, share sacrifices, and build friendships, because there is no greater benefit in a state than for citizens to know one another. When ignorance and darkness prevail among them, no one will receive the honor they deserve, nor the power or justice rightly owed to them. Therefore, in every state, it is essential that everyone remains honest and straightforward; no deceit should take advantage of anyone.
The next move in our pastime of legislation, like the withdrawal of the stone from the holy line in the game of draughts, being an unusual one, will probably excite wonder when mentioned for the first time. And yet, if a man will only reflect and weigh the matter with care, he will see that our city is ordered in a manner which, if not the best, is the second best. Perhaps also some one may not approve this form, because he thinks that such a constitution is ill adapted to a legislator who has not despotic power. The truth is, that there are three forms of government, the best, the second and the third best, which we may just mention, and then leave the selection to the ruler of the settlement. Following this method in the present instance, let us speak of the states which are respectively first, second, and third in excellence, and then we will leave the choice to Cleinias now, or to any one else who may hereafter have to make a similar choice among constitutions, and may desire to give to his state some feature which is congenial to him and which he approves in his own country.
The next step in our legislative discussion, like removing the stone from the sacred line in checkers, is an unusual one and will likely raise eyebrows the first time it's mentioned. However, if a person takes a moment to think it through carefully, they'll recognize that our city is organized in a way that, while not perfect, is the second best. Some may not favor this structure because they believe it doesn’t suit a legislator without absolute power. The fact is, there are three types of government: the best, the second best, and the third best. We'll briefly mention these and then leave the final decision to the leader of the city. In this case, let’s discuss the states that rank first, second, and third in quality, and then we’ll let Cleinias, or anyone else who might face a similar decision about political systems in the future, choose a model that aligns with their values and preferences.
The first and highest form of the state and of the government and of the law is that in which there prevails most widely the ancient saying, that 'Friends have all things in common.' Whether there is anywhere now, or will ever be, this communion of women and children and of property, in which the private and individual is altogether banished from life, and things which are by nature private, such as eyes and ears and hands, have become common, and in some way see and hear and act in common, and all men express praise and blame and feel joy and sorrow on the same occasions, and whatever laws there are unite the city to the utmost (compare Republic),—whether all this is possible or not, I say that no man, acting upon any other principle, will ever constitute a state which will be truer or better or more exalted in virtue. Whether such a state is governed by Gods or sons of Gods, one, or more than one, happy are the men who, living after this manner, dwell there; and therefore to this we are to look for the pattern of the state, and to cling to this, and to seek with all our might for one which is like this. The state which we have now in hand, when created, will be nearest to immortality and the only one which takes the second place; and after that, by the grace of God, we will complete the third one. And we will begin by speaking of the nature and origin of the second.
The first and highest form of the state, government, and law is one in which the ancient saying "Friends share all things" is most widely embraced. Whether such a community of women, children, and property exists now or will ever exist, where private and individual life is completely removed, and things that are naturally private—like eyes, ears, and hands—have become common, allowing everyone to see, hear, and act together; where all individuals express praise and blame and share joy and sorrow on the same occasions; and where the laws unite the city to the fullest extent (see Republic)—whether any of this is possible or not, I believe that no one, acting on any other principle, can ever create a state that is truer, better, or more virtuous. Whether such a state is governed by Gods or sons of Gods, or by one or more rulers, those who live in this way are fortunate. Therefore, we should look to this as the ideal model for the state, hold onto it, and strive with all our effort for something similar. The state we are about to create will be closest to immortality and will be the second-best; and after that, with God’s grace, we will work on the third. We will start by discussing the nature and origin of the second state.
Let the citizens at once distribute their land and houses, and not till the land in common, since a community of goods goes beyond their proposed origin, and nurture, and education. But in making the distribution, let the several possessors feel that their particular lots also belong to the whole city; and seeing that the earth is their parent, let them tend her more carefully than children do their mother. For she is a goddess and their queen, and they are her mortal subjects. Such also are the feelings which they ought to entertain to the Gods and demi-gods of the country. And in order that the distribution may always remain, they ought to consider further that the present number of families should be always retained, and neither increased nor diminished. This may be secured for the whole city in the following manner:—Let the possessor of a lot leave the one of his children who is his best beloved, and one only, to be the heir of his dwelling, and his successor in the duty of ministering to the Gods, the state and the family, as well the living members of it as those who are departed when he comes into the inheritance; but of his other children, if he have more than one, he shall give the females in marriage according to the law to be hereafter enacted, and the males he shall distribute as sons to those citizens who have no children, and are disposed to receive them; or if there should be none such, and particular individuals have too many children, male or female, or too few, as in the case of barrenness—in all these cases let the highest and most honourable magistracy created by us judge and determine what is to be done with the redundant or deficient, and devise a means that the number of 5040 houses shall always remain the same. There are many ways of regulating numbers; for they in whom generation is affluent may be made to refrain (compare Arist. Pol.), and, on the other hand, special care may be taken to increase the number of births by rewards and stigmas, or we may meet the evil by the elder men giving advice and administering rebuke to the younger—in this way the object may be attained. And if after all there be very great difficulty about the equal preservation of the 5040 houses, and there be an excess of citizens, owing to the too great love of those who live together, and we are at our wits' end, there is still the old device often mentioned by us of sending out a colony, which will part friends with us, and be composed of suitable persons. If, on the other hand, there come a wave bearing a deluge of disease, or a plague of war, and the inhabitants become much fewer than the appointed number by reason of bereavement, we ought not to introduce citizens of spurious birth and education, if this can be avoided; but even God is said not to be able to fight against necessity.
Let the citizens immediately distribute their land and houses, and not cultivate the land in common, since sharing everything goes beyond their original purpose, nurture, and education. But as they distribute the land, the owners should feel that their individual lots also belong to the entire city; and recognizing that the earth is their mother, they should care for her even more than children do their own moms. For she is a goddess and their queen, and they are her mortal subjects. They should feel the same way towards the gods and demigods of the land. To ensure the distribution lasts, they need to think about maintaining the current number of families, keeping it neither increased nor decreased. This can be managed for the entire city like this: The owner of a lot should leave his most beloved child, and only one, as the heir of his home, responsible for serving the gods, the state, and the family, including both the living and the departed when he inherits; any other children he has should be married off according to the laws to be created later, and any boys should be given to citizens without children who are willing to take them in; or if there are no such citizens, and some individuals have too many children—either boys or girls—or too few due to infertility—in all these cases, let the highest and most honorable magistrate we create decide what should be done with the surplus or deficiencies, and come up with a way to keep the number of 5040 houses consistently the same. There are many ways to manage population numbers; those who have many offspring may be encouraged to refrain from having more (see Arist. Pol.), while care can be taken to increase births through rewards and social pressures, or by having older men advise and reprimand the younger ones—in this way, the goal can be achieved. And if we still face significant challenges in maintaining the equal number of 5040 houses, and if there are too many citizens due to excessive love among those living together, and we exhaust all options, we can revert to the old solution often mentioned: sending out a colony, which will separate friends and consist of suitable people. Conversely, if there comes a wave of disease or war that reduces the population below the designated number due to loss, we shouldn’t introduce citizens of questionable birth and education, if we can help it; even so, it is said that not even God can fight against necessity.
Wherefore let us suppose this 'high argument' of ours to address us in the following terms:—Best of men, cease not to honour according to nature similarity and equality and sameness and agreement, as regards number and every good and noble quality. And, above all, observe the aforesaid number 5040 throughout life; in the second place, do not disparage the small and modest proportions of the inheritances which you received in the distribution, by buying and selling them to one another. For then neither will the God who gave you the lot be your friend, nor will the legislator; and indeed the law declares to the disobedient that these are the terms upon which he may or may not take the lot. In the first place, the earth as he is informed is sacred to the Gods; and in the next place, priests and priestesses will offer up prayers over a first, and second, and even a third sacrifice, that he who buys or sells the houses or lands which he has received, may suffer the punishment which he deserves; and these their prayers they shall write down in the temples, on tablets of cypress-wood, for the instruction of posterity. Moreover they will set a watch over all these things, that they may be observed;—the magistracy which has the sharpest eyes shall keep watch that any infringement of these commands may be discovered and punished as offences both against the law and the God. How great is the benefit of such an ordinance to all those cities, which obey and are administered accordingly, no bad man can ever know, as the old proverb says; but only a man of experience and good habits. For in such an order of things there will not be much opportunity for making money; no man either ought, or indeed will be allowed, to exercise any ignoble occupation, of which the vulgarity is a matter of reproach to a freeman, and should never want to acquire riches by any such means.
So let’s imagine this 'important topic' of ours speaking to us like this:—Best of people, always value nature’s similarities, equality, sameness, and agreement, especially when it comes to numbers and all good and noble qualities. And, above all, pay attention to the number 5040 throughout your life; secondly, don’t look down on the small and modest portions of the inheritance you received by trading them with one another. If you do, neither will the God who gave you your share be your ally, nor will the legislator; in fact, the law makes it clear to those who disobey that these are the conditions under which they may gain or lose their lot. First, the earth, as he knows, is sacred to the Gods; next, priests and priestesses will pray over each sacrifice—first, second, and even a third—that whoever buys or sells the homes or land they’ve received may face the punishment they deserve; and they will document these prayers in the temples on cypress wood tablets for the education of future generations. Moreover, they will keep watch over all these matters to ensure they are upheld; the magistrates with the keenest eyes will monitor that any violations of these rules are identified and punished as offenses against both the law and God. No bad person can truly understand the benefits of such an ordinance for all those cities that comply and are managed accordingly, as the old saying goes; only someone with experience and good morals can appreciate it. In such a system, there won’t be much chance to make a profit; no person should, or will, be allowed to engage in any dishonorable work, which is viewed with disdain by a free person, and they should never seek to gain wealth through such means.
Further, the law enjoins that no private man shall be allowed to possess gold and silver, but only coin for daily use, which is almost necessary in dealing with artisans, and for payment of hirelings, whether slaves or immigrants, by all those persons who require the use of them. Wherefore our citizens, as we say, should have a coin passing current among themselves, but not accepted among the rest of mankind; with a view, however, to expeditions and journeys to other lands,—for embassies, or for any other occasion which may arise of sending out a herald, the state must also possess a common Hellenic currency. If a private person is ever obliged to go abroad, let him have the consent of the magistrates and go; and if when he returns he has any foreign money remaining, let him give the surplus back to the treasury, and receive a corresponding sum in the local currency. And if he is discovered to appropriate it, let it be confiscated, and let him who knows and does not inform be subject to curse and dishonour equally him who brought the money, and also to a fine not less in amount than the foreign money which has been brought back. In marrying and giving in marriage, no one shall give or receive any dowry at all; and no one shall deposit money with another whom he does not trust as a friend, nor shall he lend money upon interest; and the borrower should be under no obligation to repay either capital or interest. That these principles are best, any one may see who compares them with the first principle and intention of a state. The intention, as we affirm, of a reasonable statesman, is not what the many declare to be the object of a good legislator, namely, that the state for the true interests of which he is advising should be as great and as rich as possible, and should possess gold and silver, and have the greatest empire by sea and land;—this they imagine to be the real object of legislation, at the same time adding, inconsistently, that the true legislator desires to have the city the best and happiest possible. But they do not see that some of these things are possible, and some of them are impossible; and he who orders the state will desire what is possible, and will not indulge in vain wishes or attempts to accomplish that which is impossible. The citizen must indeed be happy and good, and the legislator will seek to make him so; but very rich and very good at the same time he cannot be, not, at least, in the sense in which the many speak of riches. For they mean by 'the rich' the few who have the most valuable possessions, although the owner of them may quite well be a rogue. And if this is true, I can never assent to the doctrine that the rich man will be happy—he must be good as well as rich. And good in a high degree, and rich in a high degree at the same time, he cannot be. Some one will ask, why not? And we shall answer—Because acquisitions which come from sources which are just and unjust indifferently, are more than double those which come from just sources only; and the sums which are expended neither honourably nor disgracefully, are only half as great as those which are expended honourably and on honourable purposes. Thus, if the one acquires double and spends half, the other who is in the opposite case and is a good man cannot possibly be wealthier than he. The first—I am speaking of the saver and not of the spender—is not always bad; he may indeed in some cases be utterly bad, but, as I was saying, a good man he never is. For he who receives money unjustly as well as justly, and spends neither nor unjustly, will be a rich man if he be also thrifty. On the other hand, the utterly bad is in general profligate, and therefore very poor; while he who spends on noble objects, and acquires wealth by just means only, can hardly be remarkable for riches, any more than he can be very poor. Our statement, then, is true, that the very rich are not good, and, if they are not good, they are not happy. But the intention of our laws was, that the citizens should be as happy as may be, and as friendly as possible to one another. And men who are always at law with one another, and amongst whom there are many wrongs done, can never be friends to one another, but only those among whom crimes and lawsuits are few and slight. Therefore we say that gold and silver ought not to be allowed in the city, nor much of the vulgar sort of trade which is carried on by lending money, or rearing the meaner kinds of live stock; but only the produce of agriculture, and only so much of this as will not compel us in pursuing it to neglect that for the sake of which riches exist—I mean, soul and body, which without gymnastics, and without education, will never be worth anything; and therefore, as we have said not once but many times, the care of riches should have the last place in our thoughts. For there are in all three things about which every man has an interest; and the interest about money, when rightly regarded, is the third and lowest of them: midway comes the interest of the body; and, first of all, that of the soul; and the state which we are describing will have been rightly constituted if it ordains honours according to this scale. But if, in any of the laws which have been ordained, health has been preferred to temperance, or wealth to health and temperate habits, that law must clearly be wrong. Wherefore, also, the legislator ought often to impress upon himself the question—'What do I want?' and 'Do I attain my aim, or do I miss the mark?' In this way, and in this way only, he may acquit himself and free others from the work of legislation.
Furthermore, the law states that no private individual should be allowed to own gold and silver, except for coins needed for daily transactions, which are almost essential when dealing with artisans and paying workers, whether they are slaves or immigrants, for those who need to use them. Therefore, our citizens should have a local currency that is accepted among themselves but not by others; however, for trips and missions to other lands—like diplomatic missions or any other situation that requires sending a messenger—the state must also have a common Hellenic currency. If a private citizen needs to travel abroad, they must have permission from the magistrates to go; and if they return with any leftover foreign currency, they should return the excess to the treasury and receive the equivalent amount in local currency. If they are found to keep it, it should be seized, and anyone who knows about it and does not report it should face a curse and dishonor, just like the one who brought the money, and also pay a fine that is at least as much as the foreign money brought back. When it comes to marriage, no one should give or receive any dowry at all; and no one should deposit money with someone they don't trust as a friend, nor should they lend money with interest; and the borrower should not be required to repay either the principal or interest. Anyone can see that these principles are the best when compared to the primary goal and intention of a state. As we assert, a reasonable statesman's aim is not what most people think a good legislator's objective is—namely, that the state should be as large and wealthy as possible, possessing gold and silver, and ruling over the largest empire by land and sea; they believe this to be the true aim of legislation, while inconsistently adding that the true legislator wants the city to be the best and happiest it can be. But they fail to recognize that some of these outcomes are possible and some are not; and a person who organizes the state will focus on what is achievable, avoiding futile wishes or efforts to achieve what is impossible. The citizen must indeed be happy and virtuous, and the legislator will aim to make him so; but it is not possible for him to be both extremely wealthy and virtuous at the same time, at least not in the way that most people understand wealth. For when they refer to 'the rich,' they mean the few who possess the most valuable assets, even if those assets belong to someone who could be completely dishonest. If this holds true, I cannot agree with the belief that a rich person will be happy—they must be both good and rich. And being highly virtuous and highly rich at the same time is impossible. Someone might ask, why not? And we will respond—because the wealth gained from both just and unjust sources is more than double that gained from just sources alone; and the amounts spent without honor or dishonor are only half of those spent honorably and on honorable causes. So if one person acquires double and spends half, the other, who is a good person and in the opposite situation, cannot possibly be richer than he. The first—who I refer to as the saver and not the spender—is not always bad; he can be completely bad in some cases, but, as I mentioned, he is never a good man. For one who receives money unjustly as well as justly, and spends neither honorably nor dishonorably, will be rich if he is thrifty. On the other hand, a completely bad person tends to be wasteful, making him very poor; while a person who spends on noble causes and earns wealth solely through just means can hardly be very rich, just as he cannot be very poor. Thus, our claim remains true that very wealthy individuals are not good, and if they are not good, then they are not happy. The purpose of our laws was for citizens to be as happy and friendly as possible with each other. Men who are constantly in conflict with one another, and among whom many wrongs occur, can never truly be friends, but only those among whom crimes and lawsuits are few and minor. Therefore, we state that gold and silver should not be allowed in the city, nor should there be much of the common kind of trade that involves lending money or raising lower-quality livestock; instead, only the produce of agriculture should be permitted, and only as much as will not lead us to neglect what riches are for—I mean
Let the allottee then hold his lot upon the conditions which we have mentioned.
Let the allottee hold his lot based on the conditions we've stated.
It would be well that every man should come to the colony having all things equal; but seeing that this is not possible, and one man will have greater possessions than another, for many reasons and in particular in order to preserve equality in special crises of the state, qualifications of property must be unequal, in order that offices and contributions and distributions may be proportioned to the value of each person's wealth, and not solely to the virtue of his ancestors or himself, nor yet to the strength and beauty of his person, but also to the measure of his wealth or poverty; and so by a law of inequality, which will be in proportion to his wealth, he will receive honours and offices as equally as possible, and there will be no quarrels and disputes. To which end there should be four different standards appointed according to the amount of property: there should be a first and a second and a third and a fourth class, in which the citizens will be placed, and they will be called by these or similar names: they may continue in the same rank, or pass into another in any individual case, on becoming richer from being poorer, or poorer from being richer. The form of law which I should propose as the natural sequel would be as follows:—In a state which is desirous of being saved from the greatest of all plagues—not faction, but rather distraction;—there should exist among the citizens neither extreme poverty, nor, again, excess of wealth, for both are productive of both these evils. Now the legislator should determine what is to be the limit of poverty or wealth. Let the limit of poverty be the value of the lot; this ought to be preserved, and no ruler, nor any one else who aspires after a reputation for virtue, will allow the lot to be impaired in any case. This the legislator gives as a measure, and he will permit a man to acquire double or triple, or as much as four times the amount of this (compare Arist. Pol.). But if a person have yet greater riches, whether he has found them, or they have been given to him, or he has made them in business, or has acquired by any stroke of fortune that which is in excess of the measure, if he give back the surplus to the state, and to the Gods who are the patrons of the state, he shall suffer no penalty or loss of reputation; but if he disobeys this our law, any one who likes may inform against him and receive half the value of the excess, and the delinquent shall pay a sum equal to the excess out of his own property, and the other half of the excess shall belong to the Gods. And let every possession of every man, with the exception of the lot, be publicly registered before the magistrates whom the law appoints, so that all suits about money may be easy and quite simple.
It would be ideal for everyone to arrive in the colony on equal footing; however, since that’s not feasible, some people will inevitably have more than others. To maintain fairness during critical times for the community, property qualifications need to be unequal. This way, roles, contributions, and allocations can reflect each person's wealth rather than being based solely on their family's reputation or their own merits, or even their physical attractiveness. Instead, the distribution should consider each individual's financial situation; by establishing a law of inequality that corresponds to wealth, everyone can receive honors and positions fairly, minimizing conflict and disputes. To achieve this, there should be four distinct categories based on wealth: a first class, a second class, a third class, and a fourth class, where citizens will be assigned. They can either remain in their current class or move to another if their financial situation changes. The proposed law would be the following: In a society that wants to be free from the greatest threat—not division, but disorder—there should be no extreme poverty or excessive wealth among citizens, as both can lead to these problems. The legislator should set boundaries for poverty and wealth. The poverty threshold should be the value of a basic lot, which must be safeguarded, and no leader or anyone seeking to be seen as virtuous should allow this value to decline. This serves as a guideline, allowing individuals to accumulate up to double, triple, or even four times this amount. However, if someone acquires even more wealth—whether through fortune or business—they may donate the excess back to the state and to the deities who protect it without facing penalties or losing their reputation. If they don’t follow this law, anyone can report them, and the informer will receive half the value of the excess. The offender will then owe the state an amount equal to the excess, with the other half going to the gods. Additionally, all possessions, except for the basic lot, should be publicly recorded by the designated officials, making financial disputes straightforward and uncomplicated.
The next thing to be noted is, that the city should be placed as nearly as possible in the centre of the country; we should choose a place which possesses what is suitable for a city, and this may easily be imagined and described. Then we will divide the city into twelve portions, first founding temples to Hestia, to Zeus and to Athene, in a spot which we will call the Acropolis, and surround with a circular wall, making the division of the entire city and country radiate from this point. The twelve portions shall be equalized by the provision that those which are of good land shall be smaller, while those of inferior quality shall be larger. The number of the lots shall be 5040, and each of them shall be divided into two, and every allotment shall be composed of two such sections; one of land near the city, the other of land which is at a distance (compare Arist. Pol.). This arrangement shall be carried out in the following manner: The section which is near the city shall be added to that which is on the borders, and form one lot, and the portion which is next nearest shall be added to the portion which is next farthest; and so of the rest. Moreover, in the two sections of the lots the same principle of equalization of the soil ought to be maintained; the badness and goodness shall be compensated by more and less. And the legislator shall divide the citizens into twelve parts, and arrange the rest of their property, as far as possible, so as to form twelve equal parts; and there shall be a registration of all. After this they shall assign twelve lots to twelve Gods, and call them by their names, and dedicate to each God their several portions, and call the tribes after them. And they shall distribute the twelve divisions of the city in the same way in which they divided the country; and every man shall have two habitations, one in the centre of the country, and the other at the extremity. Enough of the manner of settlement.
The next important point is that the city should be located as close to the center of the country as possible; we should pick a place that has what is suitable for a city, which can easily be imagined and described. Then, we will divide the city into twelve sections, first building temples to Hestia, Zeus, and Athena in a location we will call the Acropolis, surrounded by a circular wall, and making the division of the entire city and country radiate from this point. The twelve sections will be equalized by making the plots of good land smaller and the plots of lesser quality larger. There will be a total of 5040 lots, and each lot will be split into two sections; one section will be near the city, and the other will be farther away (see Arist. Pol.). This setup will be done as follows: the section near the city will be combined with the outer section to form one lot, and the next closest section will be paired with the next farthest, and so on for the rest. Additionally, within the two sections of each lot, the principle of equalizing the land quality should be upheld; the poorer and better soils will balance each other out. The legislator will divide the citizens into twelve groups and arrange their remaining property as equally as possible, forming twelve equal parts, and there will be a complete registration of all. After this, they will assign twelve lots to twelve Gods, naming them accordingly, and dedicate each portion to its respective God, with the tribes named after them. They will organize the twelve divisions of the city in the same manner as they did for the countryside, and each person will have two residences, one in the center of the country and the other at the outskirts. That's enough about the settlement process.
Now we ought by all means to consider that there can never be such a happy concurrence of circumstances as we have described; neither can all things coincide as they are wanted. Men who will not take offence at such a mode of living together, and will endure all their life long to have their property fixed at a moderate limit, and to beget children in accordance with our ordinances, and will allow themselves to be deprived of gold and other things which the legislator, as is evident from these enactments, will certainly forbid them; and will endure, further, the situation of the land with the city in the middle and dwellings round about;—all this is as if the legislator were telling his dreams, or making a city and citizens of wax. There is truth in these objections, and therefore every one should take to heart what I am going to say. Once more, then, the legislator shall appear and address us:—'O my friends,' he will say to us, 'do not suppose me ignorant that there is a certain degree of truth in your words; but I am of opinion that, in matters which are not present but future, he who exhibits a pattern of that at which he aims, should in nothing fall short of the fairest and truest; and that if he finds any part of this work impossible of execution he should avoid and not execute it, but he should contrive to carry out that which is nearest and most akin to it; you must allow the legislator to perfect his design, and when it is perfected, you should join with him in considering what part of his legislation is expedient and what will arouse opposition; for surely the artist who is to be deemed worthy of any regard at all, ought always to make his work self-consistent.'
Now we should definitely consider that there can never be such a perfect alignment of circumstances as we've described; not everything can happen just as needed. People who won’t be offended by this way of living together, who will accept having their property limited to a reasonable amount their whole lives, and who will raise children according to our rules, and who are willing to give up gold and other things that the law will clearly forbid them—along with enduring the arrangement of the land with the city in the center and homes surrounding it—this all feels like the lawmaker is just sharing dreams, as if he’s shaping a city and citizens out of wax. There’s truth to these concerns, and so everyone should pay attention to what I’m about to say. Once again, the lawmaker will come forward and speak to us: “Oh my friends,” he’ll say, “don’t think I’m unaware that there’s some truth in your words; but I believe that when it comes to future matters, anyone showing an example of what they aim for should strive to present the most beautiful and truthful version possible. If he finds part of this plan unfeasible, he should avoid it and not go through with it, but instead aim to accomplish what is closest to it. You need to let the lawmaker complete his vision, and once it’s complete, you should help him evaluate which parts of his laws are practical and which might face resistance; surely the artist who deserves any respect should always make his work consistent.”
Having determined that there is to be a distribution into twelve parts, let us now see in what way this may be accomplished. There is no difficulty in perceiving that the twelve parts admit of the greatest number of divisions of that which they include, or in seeing the other numbers which are consequent upon them, and are produced out of them up to 5040; wherefore the law ought to order phratries and demes and villages, and also military ranks and movements, as well as coins and measures, dry and liquid, and weights, so as to be commensurable and agreeable to one another. Nor should we fear the appearance of minuteness, if the law commands that all the vessels which a man possesses should have a common measure, when we consider generally that the divisions and variations of numbers have a use in respect of all the variations of which they are susceptible, both in themselves and as measures of height and depth, and in all sounds, and in motions, as well those which proceed in a straight direction, upwards or downwards, as in those which go round and round. The legislator is to consider all these things and to bid the citizens, as far as possible, not to lose sight of numerical order; for no single instrument of youthful education has such mighty power, both as regards domestic economy and politics, and in the arts, as the study of arithmetic. Above all, arithmetic stirs up him who is by nature sleepy and dull, and makes him quick to learn, retentive, shrewd, and aided by art divine he makes progress quite beyond his natural powers (compare Republic). All such things, if only the legislator, by other laws and institutions, can banish meanness and covetousness from the souls of men, so that they can use them properly and to their own good, will be excellent and suitable instruments of education. But if he cannot, he will unintentionally create in them, instead of wisdom, the habit of craft, which evil tendency may be observed in the Egyptians and Phoenicians, and many other races, through the general vulgarity of their pursuits and acquisitions, whether some unworthy legislator of theirs has been the cause, or some impediment of chance or nature. For we must not fail to observe, O Megillus and Cleinias, that there is a difference in places, and that some beget better men and others worse; and we must legislate accordingly. Some places are subject to strange and fatal influences by reason of diverse winds and violent heats, some by reason of waters; or, again, from the character of the food given by the earth, which not only affects the bodies of men for good or evil, but produces similar results in their souls. And in all such qualities those spots excel in which there is a divine inspiration, and in which the demigods have their appointed lots, and are propitious, not adverse, to the settlers in them. To all these matters the legislator, if he have any sense in him, will attend as far as man can, and frame his laws accordingly. And this is what you, Cleinias, must do, and to matters of this kind you must turn your mind since you are going to colonize a new country.
Having established that there will be a division into twelve parts, let’s now explore how this can be achieved. It’s easy to see that these twelve parts can accommodate numerous subdivisions of what they include, as well as the other numbers that are derived from them, reaching up to 5040. Therefore, the law should organize phratries, demes, villages, military ranks and movements, as well as coins, measurements for dry and liquid substances, and weights, so that they are compatible and consistent with one another. There’s no need to worry about seeming overly detailed if the law mandates that all the vessels a person owns share a common measurement. When we look at it broadly, the divisions and variations of numbers serve practical purposes regarding all the different aspects they can measure, whether in height or depth, sound, or movement—whether straight up and down, or circular. The legislator should keep all these considerations in mind and encourage citizens, as much as possible, to maintain numerical order; for no single educational tool for the young carries as much influence, both for household management and politics, as the study of arithmetic. Above all, arithmetic awakens those who are naturally sluggish and dull, making them quick learners, sharp-minded, and with divine assistance, they make progress beyond their innate abilities. If the legislator can eliminate meanness and greed from people's hearts through other laws and institutions, allowing them to use these tools properly for their own benefit, they will serve as excellent and appropriate educational instruments. However, if he cannot, he may inadvertently instill, instead of wisdom, a tendency towards cunning, which can be seen in Egyptians, Phoenicians, and many other groups, reflecting a general vulgarity in their pursuits and wealth, whether due to an unworthy legislator or unforeseen circumstances. We must also recognize, O Megillus and Cleinias, that different places produce different qualities in people; some areas foster better individuals while others lead to worse outcomes, and our legislation must reflect this. Certain regions are influenced by harmful elements, such as wild winds and harsh heat or bodies of water; additionally, the nature of the local food affects not just the bodies of individuals but also their souls. The most favorable areas are those inspired by the divine, where the demigods are kind to their settlers. The legislator, if he possesses any insight, will pay attention to these matters and craft his laws accordingly. This is what you, Cleinias, must focus on as you prepare to settle a new land.
CLEINIAS: Your words, Athenian Stranger, are excellent, and I will do as you say.
CLEINIAS: Your words, Athenian Stranger, are great, and I will follow your advice.
BOOK VI.
ATHENIAN: And now having made an end of the preliminaries we will proceed to the appointment of magistracies.
ATHENIAN: Now that we’ve finished the preliminaries, let’s move on to the appointment of magistracies.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: In the ordering of a state there are two parts: first, the number of the magistracies, and the mode of establishing them; and, secondly, when they have been established, laws again will have to be provided for each of them, suitable in nature and number. But before electing the magistrates let us stop a little and say a word in season about the election of them.
ATHENIAN: When it comes to organizing a state, there are two main aspects: first, the number of magistracies and how to set them up; and second, once they are established, we need to create laws for each of them that are appropriate in nature and quantity. But before we elect the magistrates, let’s take a moment to discuss their election process.
CLEINIAS: What have you got to say?
CLEINIAS: What do you have to say?
ATHENIAN: This is what I have to say;—every one can see, that although the work of legislation is a most important matter, yet if a well-ordered city superadd to good laws unsuitable offices, not only will there be no use in having the good laws,—not only will they be ridiculous and useless, but the greatest political injury and evil will accrue from them.
ATHENIAN: Here’s what I want to say: everyone can see that while creating good laws is really important, if a well-structured city adds inappropriate positions on top of those laws, then having those good laws becomes pointless—not only will they be absurd and ineffective, but they will also cause major political harm and problems.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Then now, my friend, let us observe what will happen in the constitution of out intended state. In the first place, you will acknowledge that those who are duly appointed to magisterial power, and their families, should severally have given satisfactory proof of what they are, from youth upward until the time of election; in the next place, those who are to elect should have been trained in habits of law, and be well educated, that they may have a right judgment, and may be able to select or reject men whom they approve or disapprove, as they are worthy of either. But how can we imagine that those who are brought together for the first time, and are strangers to one another, and also uneducated, will avoid making mistakes in the choice of magistrates?
ATHENIAN: So now, my friend, let's take a look at what will happen in the setup of our planned state. First, you have to agree that those appointed to hold positions of power, along with their families, should have proven themselves worthy from their youth up to the time of election. Next, those who will be voting should have been trained in the law and well-educated, so they can make smart decisions and choose or dismiss candidates based on their merits. But how can we expect that people who are meeting for the first time, who don’t know each other, and who are also uneducated, will make the right choices when it comes to selecting magistrates?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: The matter is serious, and excuses will not serve the turn. I will tell you, then, what you and I will have to do, since you, as you tell me, with nine others, have offered to settle the new state on behalf of the people of Crete, and I am to help you by the invention of the present romance. I certainly should not like to leave the tale wandering all over the world without a head;—a headless monster is such a hideous thing.
ATHENIAN: This is serious, and excuses won't help. Let me explain what we need to do, since you, along with nine others, have offered to establish the new state for the people of Crete, and I'm here to assist you by creating the current story. I really don't want to leave the tale aimlessly wandering without a main character;—a headless monster is just too grotesque.
CLEINIAS: Excellent, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: Great, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and I will be as good as my word.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and I will keep my promise.
CLEINIAS: Let us by all means do as you propose.
CLEINIAS: Let's definitely go along with your suggestion.
ATHENIAN: That we will, by the grace of God, if old age will only permit us.
ATHENIAN: We will, with God's help, if old age allows us.
CLEINIAS: But God will be gracious.
CLEINIAS: But God will be kind.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and under his guidance let us consider a further point.
ATHENIAN: Yes, and with his guidance, let’s think about another point.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: Let us remember what a courageously mad and daring creation this our city is.
ATHENIAN: Let's remember how boldly crazy and daring this city of ours is.
CLEINIAS: What had you in your mind when you said that?
CLEINIAS: What were you thinking when you said that?
ATHENIAN: I had in my mind the free and easy manner in which we are ordaining that the inexperienced colonists shall receive our laws. Now a man need not be very wise, Cleinias, in order to see that no one can easily receive laws at their first imposition. But if we could anyhow wait until those who have been imbued with them from childhood, and have been nurtured in them, and become habituated to them, take their part in the public elections of the state; I say, if this could be accomplished, and rightly accomplished by any way or contrivance—then, I think that there would be very little danger, at the end of the time, of a state thus trained not being permanent.
ATHENIAN: I was thinking about how casually we plan for the inexperienced colonists to accept our laws. It doesn’t take a genius, Cleinias, to realize that it’s tough for anyone to accept laws right off the bat. But if we could somehow wait until people have grown up with these laws, have been raised with them, and have gotten used to them before they participate in the public elections of the state; I mean, if we could make that happen in the right way—then I believe there would be very little risk that a state trained in this way wouldn’t last.
CLEINIAS: A reasonable supposition.
CLEINIAS: A reasonable assumption.
ATHENIAN: Then let us consider if we can find any way out of the difficulty; for I maintain, Cleinias, that the Cnosians, above all the other Cretans, should not be satisfied with barely discharging their duty to the colony, but they ought to take the utmost pains to establish the offices which are first created by them in the best and surest manner. Above all, this applies to the selection of the guardians of the law, who must be chosen first of all, and with the greatest care; the others are of less importance.
ATHENIAN: Let’s think about how we can resolve this issue; I believe, Cleinias, that the Cnosians, more than any other Cretans, shouldn’t just be satisfied with fulfilling their responsibilities to the colony. They should make every effort to establish the offices they create in the best and most reliable way. This is especially true for choosing the guardians of the law, who must be selected first and with the utmost care; the other positions are less critical.
CLEINIAS: What method can we devise of electing them?
CLEINIAS: How can we choose them?
ATHENIAN: This will be the method:—Sons of the Cretans, I shall say to them, inasmuch as the Cnosians have precedence over the other states, they should, in common with those who join this settlement, choose a body of thirty-seven in all, nineteen of them being taken from the settlers, and the remainder from the citizens of Cnosus. Of these latter the Cnosians shall make a present to your colony, and you yourself shall be one of the eighteen, and shall become a citizen of the new state; and if you and they cannot be persuaded to go, the Cnosians may fairly use a little violence in order to make you.
ATHENIAN: Here’s the plan:—Cretan sons, I will tell them, since the Cnosians are in charge over the other states, they should, along with those who join this settlement, select a total of thirty-seven members, with nineteen coming from the settlers and the rest from the citizens of Cnosus. The Cnosians will offer these citizens as a gift to your colony, and you will be one of the eighteen, becoming a citizen of the new state; and if you and they refuse to go, the Cnosians might justifiably use a bit of force to persuade you.
CLEINIAS: But why, Stranger, do not you and Megillus take a part in our new city?
CLEINIAS: But why, Stranger, don't you and Megillus get involved in our new city?
ATHENIAN: O, Cleinias, Athens is proud, and Sparta too; and they are both a long way off. But you and likewise the other colonists are conveniently situated as you describe. I have been speaking of the way in which the new citizens may be best managed under present circumstances; but in after-ages, if the city continues to exist, let the election be on this wise. All who are horse or foot soldiers, or have seen military service at the proper ages when they were severally fitted for it (compare Arist. Pol.), shall share in the election of magistrates; and the election shall be held in whatever temple the state deems most venerable, and every one shall carry his vote to the altar of the God, writing down on a tablet the name of the person for whom he votes, and his father's name, and his tribe, and ward; and at the side he shall write his own name in like manner. Any one who pleases may take away any tablet which he does not think properly filled up, and exhibit it in the Agora for a period of not less than thirty days. The tablets which are judged to be first, to the number of 300, shall be shown by the magistrates to the whole city, and the citizens shall in like manner select from these the candidates whom they prefer; and this second selection, to the number of 100, shall be again exhibited to the citizens; in the third, let any one who pleases select whom he pleases out of the 100, walking through the parts of victims, and let them choose for magistrates and proclaim the seven-and-thirty who have the greatest number of votes. But who, Cleinias and Megillus, will order for us in the colony all this matter of the magistrates, and the scrutinies of them? If we reflect, we shall see that cities which are in process of construction like ours must have some such persons, who cannot possibly be elected before there are any magistrates; and yet they must be elected in some way, and they are not to be inferior men, but the best possible. For as the proverb says, 'a good beginning is half the business'; and 'to have begun well' is praised by all, and in my opinion is a great deal more than half the business, and has never been praised by any one enough.
ATHENIAN: Oh, Cleinias, Athens is impressive, and so is Sparta; they are both quite far away. But you and the other colonists are in a great position, just like you mentioned. I've been discussing how to best manage the new citizens under the current circumstances; but for future generations, if the city endures, let the elections be held this way. All who are cavalry or infantry soldiers, or have served in the military at the appropriate ages, should have a say in electing magistrates (see Arist. Pol.). The election should take place in whatever temple the state considers most respected, and everyone will cast their vote at the altar of the God, writing down on a tablet the name of the person they are voting for, along with their father's name, tribe, and ward; they should also write their own name in a similar manner. Anyone who wants can take away any tablet that they believe is not filled out correctly and display it in the Agora for at least thirty days. The tablets deemed the best, up to 300, will be shown by the magistrates to the whole city, and the citizens will then select their preferred candidates from these. This second selection, reduced to 100, will again be presented to the citizens; in the third round, anyone can pick whom they prefer from the 100, walking through the offerings of victims, and they should choose for magistrates and announce the thirty-seven individuals with the most votes. But who, Cleinias and Megillus, will handle all this regarding the magistrates and their evaluations in the colony? If we think about it, we’ll see that cities like ours, still being built, need some sort of leadership, even if those leaders can’t be elected until there are magistrates. Yet, these leaders must be chosen somehow, and they should not be lesser individuals, but the best we can find. As the saying goes, "a good beginning is half the battle," and "to have started well" is celebrated by everyone; in my view, it’s much more than half the battle and hasn’t received enough praise.
CLEINIAS: That is very true.
CLEINIAS: That's very true.
ATHENIAN: Then let us recognize the difficulty, and make clear to our own minds how the beginning is to be accomplished. There is only one proposal which I have to offer, and that is one which, under our circumstances, is both necessary and expedient.
ATHENIAN: So let’s acknowledge the challenge and clarify for ourselves how we should get started. I have only one suggestion to make, and that's one that is both necessary and practical for our situation.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: I maintain that this colony of ours has a father and mother, who are no other than the colonizing state. Well I know that many colonies have been, and will be, at enmity with their parents. But in early days the child, as in a family, loves and is beloved; even if there come a time later when the tie is broken, still, while he is in want of education, he naturally loves his parents and is beloved by them, and flies to his relatives for protection, and finds in them his only natural allies in time of need; and this parental feeling already exists in the Cnosians, as is shown by their care of the new city; and there is a similar feeling on the part of the young city towards Cnosus. And I repeat what I was saying—for there is no harm in repeating a good thing—that the Cnosians should take a common interest in all these matters, and choose, as far as they can, the eldest and best of the colonists, to the number of not less than a hundred; and let there be another hundred of the Cnosians themselves. These, I say, on their arrival, should have a joint care that the magistrates should be appointed according to law, and that when they are appointed they should undergo a scrutiny. When this has been effected, the Cnosians shall return home, and the new city do the best she can for her own preservation and happiness. I would have the seven-and-thirty now, and in all future time, chosen to fulfil the following duties:—Let them, in the first place, be the guardians of the law; and, secondly, of the registers in which each one registers before the magistrate the amount of his property, excepting four minae which are allowed to citizens of the first class, three allowed to the second, two to the third, and a single mina to the fourth. And if any one, despising the laws for the sake of gain, be found to possess anything more which has not been registered, let all that he has in excess be confiscated, and let him be liable to a suit which shall be the reverse of honourable or fortunate. And let any one who will, indict him on the charge of loving base gains, and proceed against him before the guardians of the law. And if he be cast, let him lose his share of the public possessions, and when there is any public distribution, let him have nothing but his original lot; and let him be written down a condemned man as long as he lives, in some place in which any one who pleases can read about his offences. The guardian of the law shall not hold office longer than twenty years, and shall not be less than fifty years of age when he is elected; or if he is elected when he is sixty years of age, he shall hold office for ten years only; and upon the same principle, he must not imagine that he will be permitted to hold such an important office as that of guardian of the laws after he is seventy years of age, if he live so long.
ATHENIAN: I believe that our colony has a mother and father, who are the state that founded us. I'm aware that many colonies have had and will have conflicts with their parent state. However, in the early days, a child, like in a family, loves and is loved; even if there comes a time when that bond is broken, while still needing guidance, the child naturally loves their parents, who affectionately care for them, and turns to their relatives for support, finding in them their only true allies when in need. This parental bond already exists with the Cnosians, evident in how they care for the new city, and the young city shares that feeling towards Cnosus. And I’ll repeat what I said—there’s no harm in repeating something good—Cnosians should have a common interest in these matters and select, as much as they can, the best and oldest of the colonists, at least a hundred in number; and there should be another hundred from Cnosus. These individuals, upon arriving, should jointly ensure that the magistrates are appointed according to the law and face a review once appointed. After this is done, the Cnosians can return home, leaving the new city to manage its own preservation and prosperity. I propose that the thirty-seven individuals chosen now and in the future should have the following responsibilities: first, to be the guardians of the law; second, to oversee the records where each person registers their property amount, barring four minae for first-class citizens, three for second-class, two for third-class, and one mina for fourth-class. If someone, disregarding the laws for profit, is found to possess more than what’s registered, all excess should be confiscated, and they should face a lawsuit that’s neither honorable nor fortunate. Anyone can charge them with greed for unjust profits and take them to the law guardians. If they are convicted, they will lose their share of public assets and, during public distributions, receive only their initial allotment; they should also be listed as a condemned individual for life, in a place where anyone can see their offenses. The law guardian cannot serve for more than twenty years, and must be at least fifty years old when elected; if elected at sixty, they can only serve ten years; similarly, they should not assume such an important role as guardian of the laws after reaching seventy, if they live that long.
These are the three first ordinances about the guardians of the law; as the work of legislation progresses, each law in turn will assign to them their further duties. And now we may proceed in order to speak of the election of other officers; for generals have to be elected, and these again must have their ministers, commanders, and colonels of horse, and commanders of brigades of foot, who would be more rightly called by their popular name of brigadiers. The guardians of the law shall propose as generals men who are natives of the city, and a selection from the candidates proposed shall be made by those who are or have been of the age for military service. And if one who is not proposed is thought by somebody to be better than one who is, let him name whom he prefers in the place of whom, and make oath that he is better, and propose him; and whichever of them is approved by vote shall be admitted to the final selection; and the three who have the greatest number of votes shall be appointed generals, and superintendents of military affairs, after previously undergoing a scrutiny, like the guardians of the law. And let the generals thus elected propose twelve brigadiers, one for each tribe; and there shall be a right of counter-proposal as in the case of the generals, and the voting and decision shall take place in the same way. Until the prytanes and council are elected, the guardians of the law shall convene the assembly in some holy spot which is suitable to the purpose, placing the hoplites by themselves, and the cavalry by themselves, and in a third division all the rest of the army. All are to vote for the generals (and for the colonels of horse), but the brigadiers are to be voted for only by those who carry shields (i.e. the hoplites). Let the body of cavalry choose phylarchs for the generals; but captains of light troops, or archers, or any other division of the army, shall be appointed by the generals for themselves. There only remains the appointment of officers of cavalry: these shall be proposed by the same persons who proposed the generals, and the election and the counter-proposal of other candidates shall be arranged in the same way as in the case of the generals, and let the cavalry vote and the infantry look on at the election; the two who have the greatest number of votes shall be the leaders of all the horse. Disputes about the voting may be raised once or twice; but if the dispute be raised a third time, the officers who preside at the several elections shall decide.
These are the first three rules regarding the guardians of the law. As the process of creating laws continues, each law will define their additional responsibilities. Now, let's move on to the election of other officials; generals need to be elected, and they will also need their ministers, commanders, and colonels for cavalry, as well as brigade commanders for infantry, who are more commonly known as brigadiers. The guardians of the law will suggest local candidates for the position of generals, and a selection will be made from those put forward by individuals who are or have been of the age to serve in the military. If someone thinks a candidate who wasn't proposed is better than one who was, they can name their preferred candidate instead and swear that they are superior. The finalists will be approved through a vote, and the three candidates with the most votes will be appointed as generals and overseers of military affairs, after passing a screening, just like the guardians of the law. The elected generals will then nominate twelve brigadiers, one for each tribe, with the option for counter-nominations similar to the generals' election, and the voting process will be the same. Until the prytanes and council are elected, the guardians of the law will call the assembly together at an appropriate sacred location, organizing the hoplites together, the cavalry separately, and all other troops in a third group. Everyone is allowed to vote for the generals (and for the colonels of cavalry), but only those with shields (the hoplites) can vote for the brigadiers. The cavalry will choose phylarchs for the generals, while the generals will appoint captains for light troops, archers, or any other divisions of the army. The last step is to appoint cavalry officers: these will be proposed by the same individuals who suggested the generals, and the election and counter-nominations will follow the same process as for the generals, with the cavalry voting while the infantry observes the election. The two candidates with the most votes will become the leaders of the cavalry. Disputes over the voting can be raised once or twice, but if a dispute arises a third time, the election officials will make the final decision.
The council shall consist of 30 x 12 members—360 will be a convenient number for sub-division. If we divide the whole number into four parts of ninety each, we get ninety counsellors for each class. First, all the citizens shall select candidates from the first class; they shall be compelled to vote, and, if they do not, shall be duly fined. When the candidates have been selected, some one shall mark them down; this shall be the business of the first day. And on the following day, candidates shall be selected from the second class in the same manner and under the same conditions as on the previous day; and on the third day a selection shall be made from the third class, at which every one may, if he likes vote, and the three first classes shall be compelled to vote; but the fourth and lowest class shall be under no compulsion, and any member of this class who does not vote shall not be punished. On the fourth day candidates shall be selected from the fourth and smallest class; they shall be selected by all, but he who is of the fourth class shall suffer no penalty, nor he who is of the third, if he be not willing to vote; but he who is of the first or second class, if he does not vote shall be punished;—he who is of the second class shall pay a fine of triple the amount which was exacted at first, and he who is of the first class quadruple. On the fifth day the rulers shall bring out the names noted down, for all the citizens to see, and every man shall choose out of them, under pain, if he do not, of suffering the first penalty; and when they have chosen 180 out of each of the classes, they shall choose one-half of them by lot, who shall undergo a scrutiny:—These are to form the council for the year.
The council will have 360 members, organized into 30 groups of 12, making it easy to divide. If we break the total number into four sections of 90 each, we'll have 90 representatives for each group. First, all citizens will choose candidates from the first group; they will be required to vote, and if they don’t, they will face a fine. Once the candidates are selected, someone will record them; this will be done on the first day. The next day, candidates will be chosen from the second group in the same way and under the same rules as the previous day. On the third day, candidates will be selected from the third group, where everyone can vote if they want, and the first two groups must vote, but members of the fourth and lowest group will not be required to vote, and those who don’t vote will not be punished. On the fourth day, candidates will be selected from the fourth and smallest group; everyone can participate, but those in the fourth group won’t face any penalties, nor will those in the third group if they choose not to vote. However, those in the first or second group who fail to vote will be punished: those in the second group will pay three times the original fine, and those in the first group will pay four times. On the fifth day, the leaders will announce the names of the candidates for everyone to see, and each citizen must choose from them to avoid the first penalty for not voting. Once 180 representatives have been chosen from each group, half of them will be selected by lot to undergo a review: these will form the council for the year.
The mode of election which has been described is in a mean between monarchy and democracy, and such a mean the state ought always to observe; for servants and masters never can be friends, nor good and bad, merely because they are declared to have equal privileges. For to unequals equals become unequal, if they are not harmonised by measure; and both by reason of equality, and by reason of inequality, cities are filled with seditions. The old saying, that 'equality makes friendship,' is happy and also true; but there is obscurity and confusion as to what sort of equality is meant. For there are two equalities which are called by the same name, but are in reality in many ways almost the opposite of one another; one of them may be introduced without difficulty, by any state or any legislator in the distribution of honours: this is the rule of measure, weight, and number, which regulates and apportions them. But there is another equality, of a better and higher kind, which is not so easily recognized. This is the judgment of Zeus; among men it avails but little; that little, however, is the source of the greatest good to individuals and states. For it gives to the greater more, and to the inferior less and in proportion to the nature of each; and, above all, greater honour always to the greater virtue, and to the less less; and to either in proportion to their respective measure of virtue and education. And this is justice, and is ever the true principle of states, at which we ought to aim, and according to this rule order the new city which is now being founded, and any other city which may be hereafter founded. To this the legislator should look,—not to the interests of tyrants one or more, or to the power of the people, but to justice always; which, as I was saying, is the distribution of natural equality among unequals in each case. But there are times at which every state is compelled to use the words, 'just,' 'equal,' in a secondary sense, in the hope of escaping in some degree from factions. For equity and indulgence are infractions of the perfect and strict rule of justice. And this is the reason why we are obliged to use the equality of the lot, in order to avoid the discontent of the people; and so we invoke God and fortune in our prayers, and beg that they themselves will direct the lot with a view to supreme justice. And therefore, although we are compelled to use both equalities, we should use that into which the element of chance enters as seldom as possible.
The method of election described is a balance between monarchy and democracy, and the state should always maintain this balance; servants and masters can never really be friends, nor can good and bad truly coexist, just because they are said to have equal rights. When equals are given to unequals, they become unequal unless balanced by some measure; both equality and inequality lead to strife within cities. The old saying that "equality fosters friendship" is insightful and true, but there is confusion about what type of equality is being referred to. There are two types of equality that share the same name but are often quite different; one can be easily established by any state or legislator in the distribution of honors: this is the equality based on measure, weight, and number, which governs and divides them. However, there is another, higher form of equality that is harder to recognize. This is the judgment of Zeus; among humans, its effect is minimal, but that little has the potential to bring great benefits to individuals and states. It grants more to those who are greater and less to those who are lesser, proportionate to their nature; and, most importantly, it gives greater honor to greater virtue, and less to the lesser, adjusting according to their respective levels of virtue and education. This is justice, the true principle of states, which should guide our efforts in organizing the new city being established, and any cities that may be founded in the future. The legislator should focus on this—not on the interests of one or more tyrants, or solely on the people's power, but always on justice, which, as I mentioned, is the distribution of natural equality among unequals in each situation. However, there are times when a state must use the terms "just" and "equal" in a secondary way to try to minimize factional conflict. This is because equity and leniency are deviations from the ideal and strict rule of justice. This is why we often resort to chance in the name of equality to prevent public discontent; hence, we pray to God and fortune for guidance in determining the outcome based on ultimate justice. Therefore, while we are forced to use both types of equality, we should rely on the element of chance as infrequently as possible.
Thus, O my friends, and for the reasons given, should a state act which would endure and be saved. But as a ship sailing on the sea has to be watched night and day, in like manner a city also is sailing on a sea of politics, and is liable to all sorts of insidious assaults; and therefore from morning to night, and from night to morning, rulers must join hands with rulers, and watchers with watchers, receiving and giving up their trust in a perpetual succession. Now a multitude can never fulfil a duty of this sort with anything like energy. Moreover, the greater number of the senators will have to be left during the greater part of the year to order their concerns at their own homes. They will therefore have to be arranged in twelve portions, answering to the twelve months, and furnish guardians of the state, each portion for a single month. Their business is to be at hand and receive any foreigner or citizen who comes to them, whether to give information, or to put one of those questions, to which, when asked by other cities, a city should give an answer, and to which, if she ask them herself, she should receive an answer; or again, when there is a likelihood of internal commotions, which are always liable to happen in some form or other, they will, if they can, prevent their occurring; or if they have already occurred, will lose no time in making them known to the city, and healing the evil. Wherefore, also, this which is the presiding body of the state ought always to have the control of their assemblies, and of the dissolutions of them, ordinary as well as extraordinary. All this is to be ordered by the twelfth part of the council, which is always to keep watch together with the other officers of the state during one portion of the year, and to rest during the remaining eleven portions.
So, my friends, for the reasons mentioned, a state should take actions that will last and be preserved. Just as a ship sailing on the ocean needs constant attention, a city also navigates a sea of politics and faces various hidden threats. Therefore, rulers must collaborate with each other, and watchers must join forces from morning to night and from night to morning, continuously trusting and supporting one another. A large group can never carry out this responsibility effectively. Additionally, most senators will need to spend much of the year managing their own personal affairs. They will be divided into twelve groups, corresponding to the twelve months, to provide guardians for the state, with each group serving for one month. Their role is to be present to welcome any foreigner or citizen who approaches them, whether to share information or to ask questions that a city should respond to when asked by others, and that they should answer when they inquire themselves. Furthermore, if there is a risk of internal unrest, which can happen in various forms, they should try to prevent it if possible; if it has already happened, they must quickly inform the city and address the issue. Therefore, this governing body should always oversee their meetings and any decisions to dissolve them, whether regular or special. All of this should be managed by one twelfth of the council, which will keep watch along with the other state officials for one portion of the year and then rest during the other eleven portions.
Thus will the city be fairly ordered. And now, who is to have the superintendence of the country, and what shall be the arrangement? Seeing that the whole city and the entire country have been both of them divided into twelve portions, ought there not to be appointed superintendents of the streets of the city, and of the houses, and buildings, and harbours, and the agora, and fountains, and sacred domains, and temples, and the like?
So the city will be well organized. Now, who will oversee the country, and how will it be arranged? Since the entire city and the whole country have both been divided into twelve parts, shouldn't we appoint supervisors for the city's streets, houses, buildings, harbors, marketplace, fountains, holy sites, temples, and so on?
CLEINIAS: To be sure there ought.
CLEINIAS: There definitely should be.
ATHENIAN: Let us assume, then, that there ought to be servants of the temples, and priests and priestesses. There must also be superintendents of roads and buildings, who will have a care of men, that they may do no harm, and also of beasts, both within the enclosure and in the suburbs. Three kinds of officers will thus have to be appointed, in order that the city may be suitably provided according to her needs. Those who have the care of the city shall be called wardens of the city; and those who have the care of the agora shall be called wardens of the agora; and those who have the care of the temples shall be called priests. Those who hold hereditary offices as priests or priestesses, shall not be disturbed; but if there be few or none such, as is probable at the foundation of a new city, priests and priestesses shall be appointed to be servants of the Gods who have no servants. Some of our officers shall be elected, and others appointed by lot, those who are of the people and those who are not of the people mingling in a friendly manner in every place and city, that the state may be as far as possible of one mind. The officers of the temples shall be appointed by lot; in this way their election will be committed to God, that He may do what is agreeable to Him. And he who obtains a lot shall undergo a scrutiny, first, as to whether he is sound of body and of legitimate birth; and in the second place, in order to show that he is of a perfectly pure family, not stained with homicide or any similar impiety in his own person, and also that his father and mother have led a similar unstained life. Now the laws about all divine things should be brought from Delphi, and interpreters appointed, under whose direction they should be used. The tenure of the priesthood should always be for a year and no longer; and he who will duly execute the sacred office, according to the laws of religion, must be not less than sixty years of age—the laws shall be the same about priestesses. As for the interpreters, they shall be appointed thus:—Let the twelve tribes be distributed into groups of four, and let each group select four, one out of each tribe within the group, three times; and let the three who have the greatest number of votes (out of the twelve appointed by each group), after undergoing a scrutiny, nine in all, be sent to Delphi, in order that the God may return one out of each triad; their age shall be the same as that of the priests, and the scrutiny of them shall be conducted in the same manner; let them be interpreters for life, and when any one dies let the four tribes select another from the tribe of the deceased. Moreover, besides priests and interpreters, there must be treasurers, who will take charge of the property of the several temples, and of the sacred domains, and shall have authority over the produce and the letting of them; and three of them shall be chosen from the highest classes for the greater temples, and two for the lesser, and one for the least of all; the manner of their election and the scrutiny of them shall be the same as that of the generals. This shall be the order of the temples.
ATHENIAN: Let’s assume, then, that there should be servants for the temples, along with priests and priestesses. We also need supervisors for the roads and buildings, who will ensure that people don’t cause harm, as well as for animals, both within the city and in the surrounding areas. We will need to appoint three types of officials to ensure that the city meets its needs. Those responsible for the city will be called city wardens; those in charge of the agora will be called agora wardens; and those who oversee the temples will be referred to as priests. Those who have hereditary positions as priests or priestesses won’t be disturbed; but if there are few or none, as is likely when starting a new city, we will appoint priests and priestesses to serve the Gods that currently have none. Some of our officials will be elected, while others will be chosen by lot, mixing those from the community with those outside it in a friendly way, so that our state may be as united as possible. The officials of the temples will be chosen by lot; this way, their selection is entrusted to God, allowing Him to choose what He prefers. The person chosen will go through a review process first to verify that they are physically sound and of legitimate birth; secondly, to confirm that they come from a family without records of homicide or similar offenses, and that both their parents have lived similarly unblemished lives. The laws regarding all divine matters should originate from Delphi, and interpreters should be appointed to guide their usage. The tenure of the priesthood should always last for a year and no longer; anyone fulfilling this sacred office according to religious laws must be at least sixty years old—this applies to priestesses as well. Regarding the interpreters, the twelve tribes will be divided into groups of four, and each group will choose four individuals—one from each tribe in the group—three times. The three who receive the most votes (from the twelve chosen by each group), after passing inspection, will be sent to Delphi, so that God may select one from each trio; their age will be the same as that of the priests, and they will undergo the same scrutiny; they will serve as interpreters for life, and when anyone dies, the four tribes will select a replacement from the deceased’s tribe. Additionally, besides priests and interpreters, we need treasurers to oversee the property of the temples and sacred lands, managing their revenue and rental; three will be chosen from the upper classes for the larger temples, two for the smaller ones, and one for the smallest; their election process and review will be the same as that for generals. This will be the structure for the temples.
Let everything have a guard as far as possible. Let the defence of the city be commited to the generals, and taxiarchs, and hipparchs, and phylarchs, and prytanes, and the wardens of the city, and of the agora, when the election of them has been completed. The defence of the country shall be provided for as follows:—The entire land has been already distributed into twelve as nearly as possible equal parts, and let the tribe allotted to a division provide annually for it five wardens of the country and commanders of the watch; and let each body of five have the power of selecting twelve others out of the youth of their own tribe,—these shall be not less than twenty-five years of age, and not more than thirty. And let there be allotted to them severally every month the various districts, in order that they may all acquire knowledge and experience of the whole country. The term of service for commanders and for watchers shall continue during two years. After having had their stations allotted to them, they will go from place to place in regular order, making their round from left to right as their commanders direct them; (when I speak of going to the right, I mean that they are to go to the east). And at the commencement of the second year, in order that as many as possible of the guards may not only get a knowledge of the country at any one season of the year, but may also have experience of the manner in which different places are affected at different seasons of the year, their then commanders shall lead them again towards the left, from place to place in succession, until they have completed the second year. In the third year other wardens of the country shall be chosen and commanders of the watch, five for each division, who are to be the superintendents of the bands of twelve. While on service at each station, their attention shall be directed to the following points:—In the first place, they shall see that the country is well protected against enemies; they shall trench and dig wherever this is required, and, as far as they can, they shall by fortifications keep off the evil-disposed, in order to prevent them from doing any harm to the country or the property; they shall use the beasts of burden and the labourers whom they find on the spot: these will be their instruments whom they will superintend, taking them, as far as possible, at the times when they are not engaged in their regular business. They shall make every part of the country inaccessible to enemies, and as accessible as possible to friends (compare Arist. Pol.); there shall be ways for man and beasts of burden and for cattle, and they shall take care to have them always as smooth as they can; and shall provide against the rains doing harm instead of good to the land, when they come down from the mountains into the hollow dells; and shall keep in the overflow by the help of works and ditches, in order that the valleys, receiving and drinking up the rain from heaven, and providing fountains and streams in the fields and regions which lie underneath, may furnish even to the dry places plenty of good water. The fountains of water, whether of rivers or of springs, shall be ornamented with plantations and buildings for beauty; and let them bring together the streams in subterraneous channels, and make all things plenteous; and if there be a sacred grove or dedicated precinct in the neighbourhood, they shall conduct the water to the actual temples of the Gods, and so beautify them at all seasons of the year. Everywhere in such places the youth shall make gymnasia for themselves, and warm baths for the aged, placing by them abundance of dry wood, for the benefit of those labouring under disease—there the weary frame of the rustic, worn with toil, will receive a kindly welcome, far better than he would at the hands of a not over-wise doctor.
Let everything have a guard as much as possible. The defense of the city should be entrusted to the generals, captains, and leaders, and the overseers of the city and the marketplace, once they've been elected. The defense of the country will be organized as follows: the entire land has already been divided into twelve roughly equal parts, and the tribe assigned to each division will provide five wardens and commanders of the watch each year; and each group of five will have the authority to select twelve others from their own tribe’s youth—these individuals should be at least twenty-five years old and no older than thirty. Each month, they will be assigned to different districts, so they can gain knowledge and experience of the entire country. The term of service for commanders and watchers will last two years. Once their areas are assigned to them, they will move around in a regular pattern, going from left to right as directed by their commanders; (when I refer to going to the right, I mean heading east). At the start of the second year, to ensure that as many watchers as possible learn about the country not just in one season but also how different places change over the seasons, their commanders will guide them back to the left, moving from place to place until they finish the second year. In the third year, different wardens and commanders, five for each division, will be selected to oversee the teams of twelve. While stationed, their focus will be on the following: first, they must ensure the country is protected from enemies; they will dig trenches and construct fortifications wherever needed to keep harm away from the country and its property; they will use local pack animals and laborers: these individuals will be their tools and helpers, utilized during their free time from regular work. They will make the land hard for enemies to access and as easy as possible for friends; there will be pathways for people, pack animals, and livestock, and they'll maintain these paths to keep them smooth; they will manage rainfall to prevent it from damaging the land while ensuring that valleys absorb and retain water from the rains, creating springs and streams in the surrounding fields, even providing plenty of good water to dry areas. Water sources, whether rivers or springs, will be enhanced with landscaping and structures for beauty; they will guide water through underground channels to make everything abundant; if there's a sacred grove or sanctuary nearby, they'll direct water to the temples of the Gods to beautify them year-round. Young people will set up gyms and warm baths for the elderly in these places, providing plenty of dry wood for those suffering from illness—here, the tired farmer, worn out from work, will receive a much warmer welcome than from a not-so-wise doctor.
The building of these and the like works will be useful and ornamental; they will provide a pleasing amusement, but they will be a serious employment too; for the sixty wardens will have to guard their several divisions, not only with a view to enemies, but also with an eye to professing friends. When a quarrel arises among neighbours or citizens, and any one whether slave or freeman wrongs another, let the five wardens decide small matters on their own authority; but where the charge against another relates to greater matters, the seventeen composed of the fives and twelves, shall determine any charges which one man brings against another, not involving more than three minae. Every judge and magistrate shall be liable to give an account of his conduct in office, except those who, like kings, have the final decision. Moreover, as regards the aforesaid wardens of the country, if they do any wrong to those of whom they have the care, whether by imposing upon them unequal tasks, or by taking the produce of the soil or implements of husbandry without their consent; also if they receive anything in the way of a bribe, or decide suits unjustly, or if they yield to the influences of flattery, let them be publicly dishonoured; and in regard to any other wrong which they do to the inhabitants of the country, if the question be of a mina, let them submit to the decision of the villagers in the neighbourhood; but in suits of greater amount, or in case of lesser, if they refuse to submit, trusting that their monthly removal into another part of the country will enable them to escape—in such cases the injured party may bring his suit in the common court, and if he obtain a verdict he may exact from the defendant, who refused to submit, a double penalty.
The construction of these and similar projects will be both useful and attractive; they will provide enjoyable recreation, but they will also be a serious responsibility. The sixty wardens will need to protect their sections, not just from enemies but also from so-called friends. When conflicts arise among neighbors or citizens, and anyone, whether slave or free, wrongs another, the five wardens should handle minor disputes on their own. However, for more serious charges, the group of seventeen, made up of the fives and twelves, will resolve any claims one person makes against another, as long as it doesn't exceed three minae. Every judge and magistrate must account for their actions in office, except those, like kings, who have the final say. Additionally, concerning the aforementioned wardens of the area, if they wrong those they are responsible for—whether by assigning them unfair tasks, taking their crops or farming tools without consent, accepting bribes, ruling unfairly in disputes, or giving in to flattery—they should face public shame. If they commit any other wrong against the local residents, and the issue involves a mina, they must accept the decision from the nearby villagers. For larger disputes, or if they refuse to cooperate, thinking that their monthly relocation will allow them to evade consequences, the injured party can take their case to the common court. If they win the case, they can demand a double penalty from the defendant who refused to participate.
The wardens and the overseers of the country, while on their two years' service, shall have common meals at their several stations, and shall all live together; and he who is absent from the common meal, or sleeps out, if only for one day or night, unless by order of his commanders, or by reason of absolute necessity, if the five denounce him and inscribe his name in the agora as not having kept his guard, let him be deemed to have betrayed the city, as far as lay in his power, and let him be disgraced and beaten with impunity by any one who meets him and is willing to punish him. If any of the commanders is guilty of such an irregularity, the whole company of sixty shall see to it, and he who is cognisant of the offence, and does not bring the offender to trial, shall be amenable to the same laws as the younger offender himself, and shall pay a heavier fine, and be incapable of ever commanding the young. The guardians of the law are to be careful inspectors of these matters, and shall either prevent or punish offenders. Every man should remember the universal rule, that he who is not a good servant will not be a good master; a man should pride himself more upon serving well than upon commanding well: first upon serving the laws, which is also the service of the Gods; in the second place, upon having served ancient and honourable men in the days of his youth. Furthermore, during the two years in which any one is a warden of the country, his daily food ought to be of a simple and humble kind. When the twelve have been chosen, let them and the five meet together, and determine that they will be their own servants, and, like servants, will not have other slaves and servants for their own use, neither will they use those of the villagers and husbandmen for their private advantage, but for the public service only; and in general they should make up their minds to live independently by themselves, servants of each other and of themselves. Further, at all seasons of the year, summer and winter alike, let them be under arms and survey minutely the whole country; thus they will at once keep guard, and at the same time acquire a perfect knowledge of every locality. There can be no more important kind of information than the exact knowledge of a man's own country; and for this as well as for more general reasons of pleasure and advantage, hunting with dogs and other kinds of sports should be pursued by the young. The service to whom this is committed may be called the secret police or wardens of the country; the name does not much signify, but every one who has the safety of the state at heart will use his utmost diligence in this service.
The wardens and supervisors of the country, during their two-year term, will have shared meals at their designated posts and will all live together. Anyone who misses a shared meal or sleeps away from the group, even for just one day or night, without an order from their superiors or due to an absolute necessity, will be considered to have betrayed the city if five others report him and list his name in the public square for failing to maintain his watch. He should be deemed to have acted against the city and can be publicly shamed and punished without consequences by anyone who chooses to do so. If any of the commanders commit such an offense, the entire group of sixty shall ensure accountability, and anyone aware of the wrongdoing who fails to report it will face the same penalties as the younger wrongdoer and will incur a heavier fine, becoming unfit to command the youth in the future. Law guardians must carefully oversee these matters and either prevent or punish wrongdoers. Everyone should remember the fundamental principle that those who cannot serve well will not be good leaders; one should take more pride in serving well than in commanding well: first, by serving the laws, which is also serving the Gods; second, by having served respected and honorable individuals in their youth. Additionally, during the two years that someone serves as a warden of the country, their daily meals should be simple and modest. When the twelve are selected, they and the five should come together and agree to act as their own servants, not employing other slaves or servants for personal use, nor exploiting the villagers' and farmers’ labor for their own benefit, but solely for public service; they should resolve to live independently, serving each other and themselves. Furthermore, throughout the year, in both summer and winter, they should be armed and thoroughly survey the entire country; this way, they will maintain watch and concurrently gain a comprehensive understanding of every area. There is no more crucial information than knowing one’s own country well, and for reasons of enjoyment and benefit, young people should engage in hunting with dogs and other sports. The group assigned to this role may be referred to as the secret police or wardens of the country; the name is less important, but everyone concerned about the state’s safety will diligently commit to this duty.
After the wardens of the country, we have to speak of the election of wardens of the agora and of the city. The wardens of the country were sixty in number, and the wardens of the city will be three, and will divide the twelve parts of the city into three; like the former, they shall have care of the ways, and of the different high roads which lead out of the country into the city, and of the buildings, that they may be all made according to law;—also of the waters, which the guardians of the supply preserve and convey to them, care being taken that they may reach the fountains pure and abundant, and be both an ornament and a benefit to the city. These also should be men of influence, and at leisure to take care of the public interest. Let every man propose as warden of the city any one whom he likes out of the highest class, and when the vote has been given on them, and the number is reduced to the six who have the greatest number of votes, let the electing officers choose by lot three out of the six, and when they have undergone a scrutiny let them hold office according to the laws laid down for them. Next, let the wardens of the agora be elected in like manner, out of the first and second class, five in number: ten are to be first elected, and out of the ten five are to be chosen by lot, as in the election of the wardens of the city:—these when they have undergone a scrutiny are to be declared magistrates. Every one shall vote for every one, and he who will not vote, if he be informed against before the magistrates, shall be fined fifty drachmae, and shall also be deemed a bad citizen. Let any one who likes go to the assembly and to the general council; it shall be compulsory to go on citizens of the first and second class, and they shall pay a fine of ten drachmae if they be found not answering to their names at the assembly. But the third and fourth class shall be under no compulsion, and shall be let off without a fine, unless the magistrates have commanded all to be present, in consequence of some urgent necessity. The wardens of the agora shall observe the order appointed by law for the agora, and shall have the charge of the temples and fountains which are in the agora; and they shall see that no one injures anything, and punish him who does, with stripes and bonds, if he be a slave or stranger; but if he be a citizen who misbehaves in this way, they shall have the power themselves of inflicting a fine upon him to the amount of a hundred drachmae, or with the consent of the wardens of the city up to double that amount. And let the wardens of the city have a similar power of imposing punishments and fines in their own department; and let them impose fines by their own department; and let them impose fines by their own authority, up to a mina, or up to two minae with the consent of the wardens of the agora.
After discussing the wardens of the countryside, we must talk about the election of wardens for the agora and the city. There are sixty wardens for the countryside, while the city will have three, dividing the twelve sections of the city into three parts. Like the previous wardens, they will oversee the roads and highways that connect the countryside to the city, ensuring that all buildings comply with the law. They will also manage the water supply, making sure it reaches the fountains clean and abundant, serving both as a decoration and a benefit to the city. These individuals should be influential and have the time to focus on public matters. Anyone can recommend someone from the upper class to be a city warden. After votes are cast, the list will be narrowed down to the six candidates with the most votes. Election officials will then randomly choose three from these six, and after a review, they will hold office according to established laws. Next, let’s elect the wardens of the agora in the same way, selecting five from the first and second classes: ten will be chosen first, and from those, five will be randomly selected, just like in the city warden election. After their review, they will be declared magistrates. Everyone can vote for anyone, and if someone fails to vote and is reported to the magistrates, they will be fined fifty drachmas and considered a bad citizen. Anyone can attend the assembly and the general council; however, citizens from the first and second classes are required to attend and will be fined ten drachmas if they do not respond when their names are called. Citizens from the third and fourth classes are not required to attend and won’t face fines unless mandated by the magistrates due to an urgent need. The wardens of the agora will follow the legal order for managing the agora and will oversee the temples and fountains located there. They must ensure that nothing is damaged and will punish anyone who does so with flogging or imprisonment, if they are a slave or a foreigner. If a citizen misbehaves, the wardens can fine them up to a hundred drachmas, or double that amount with the approval of the city wardens. Similarly, the city wardens will have the authority to impose punishments and fines in their area, with the power to fine up to a mina individually, or up to two minae with the consent of the agora wardens.
In the next place, it will be proper to appoint directors of music and gymnastic, two kinds of each—of the one kind the business will be education, of the other, the superintendence of contests. In speaking of education, the law means to speak of those who have the care of order and instruction in gymnasia and schools, and of the going to school, and of school buildings for boys and girls; and in speaking of contests, the law refers to the judges of gymnastics and of music; these again are divided into two classes, the one having to do with music, the other with gymnastics; and the same who judge of the gymnastic contests of men, shall judge of horses; but in music there shall be one set of judges of solo singing, and of imitation—I mean of rhapsodists, players on the harp, the flute and the like, and another who shall judge of choral song. First of all, we must choose directors for the choruses of boys, and men, and maidens, whom they shall follow in the amusement of the dance, and for our other musical arrangements;—one director will be enough for the choruses, and he should be not less than forty years of age. One director will also be enough to introduce the solo singers, and to give judgment on the competitors, and he ought not to be less than thirty years of age. The director and manager of the choruses shall be elected after the following manner:—Let any persons who commonly take an interest in such matters go to the meeting, and be fined if they do not go (the guardians of the law shall judge of their fault), but those who have no interest shall not be compelled. The elector shall propose as director some one who understands music, and he in the scrutiny may be challenged on the one part by those who say he has no skill, and defended on the other hand by those who say that he has. Ten are to be elected by vote, and he of the ten who is chosen by lot shall undergo a scrutiny, and lead the choruses for a year according to law. And in like manner the competitor who wins the lot shall be leader of the solo and concert music for that year; and he who is thus elected shall deliver the award to the judges. In the next place, we have to choose judges in the contests of horses and of men; these shall be selected from the third and also from the second class of citizens, and three first classes shall be compelled to go to the election, but the lowest may stay away with impunity; and let there be three elected by lot out of the twenty who have been chosen previously, and they must also have the vote and approval of the examiners. But if any one is rejected in the scrutiny at any ballot or decision, others shall be chosen in the same manner, and undergo a similar scrutiny.
Next, we need to appoint music and gymnastic directors, with two for each type—one group focusing on education and the other overseeing contests. When we talk about education, we mean those responsible for order and instruction in gyms and schools, the attendance of students, and the facilities for boys and girls. When we discuss contests, we refer to the judges of gymnastics and music, who are also divided into two categories: one for music and the other for gymnastics. The same judges who oversee men’s gymnastic contests will also judge horse competitions; however, for music, there will be a separate group of judges for solo performances, including rhapsodists and players of the harp, flute, and similar instruments, and another set for choral singing. First, we need to select directors for the boy, men, and girl choruses, who will guide them in dancing and other musical activities. One director is sufficient for the choruses, and this person should be at least forty years old. A separate director will be needed to manage solo singers and judge the competitors, and this individual should be at least thirty years old. The election of the director and manager of choruses will be conducted as follows: anyone who usually cares about these matters should attend the meeting, and those who fail to do so will face fines (the guardians of the law will decide the penalty), but those uninterested must not be compelled to attend. The person proposing a director must choose someone knowledgeable in music, who can be challenged by others claiming a lack of skill and defended by supporters. Ten people will be chosen by vote, and one of those selected will be chosen by lot to undergo scrutiny and lead the choruses for one year as per the law. Similarly, the competitor who wins the lot will lead the solo and group music that year, and they will be responsible for delivering the results to the judges. Next, we need to select judges for both horse and human contests; these judges should be chosen from the third and second classes of citizens. Three individuals from the first class must attend the election, but those in the lowest class may skip without penalty. From the twenty individuals previously selected, three will be chosen by lot, and they must also be approved by the examiners. If anyone is rejected during the scrutiny at any voting or decision, others will be chosen in the same way and subjected to the same scrutiny.
There remains the minister of the education of youth, male and female; he too will rule according to law; one such minister will be sufficient, and he must be fifty years old, and have children lawfully begotten, both boys and girls by preference, at any rate, one or the other. He who is elected, and he who is the elector, should consider that of all the great offices of state this is the greatest; for the first shoot of any plant, if it makes a good start towards the attainment of its natural excellence, has the greatest effect on its maturity; and this is not only true of plants, but of animals wild and tame, and also of men. Man, as we say, is a tame or civilized animal; nevertheless, he requires proper instruction and a fortunate nature, and then of all animals he becomes the most divine and most civilized (Arist. Pol.); but if he be insufficiently or ill educated he is the most savage of earthly creatures. Wherefore the legislator ought not to allow the education of children to become a secondary or accidental matter. In the first place, he who would be rightly provident about them, should begin by taking care that he is elected, who of all the citizens is in every way best; him the legislator shall do his utmost to appoint guardian and superintendent. To this end all the magistrates, with the exception of the council and prytanes, shall go to the temple of Apollo, and elect by ballot him of the guardians of the law whom they severally think will be the best superintendent of education. And he who has the greatest number of votes, after he has undergone a scrutiny at the hands of all the magistrates who have been his electors, with the exception of the guardians of the law,—shall hold office for five years; and in the sixth year let another be chosen in like manner to fill his office.
There remains the minister responsible for the education of young people, both boys and girls; he too will govern according to the law. One such minister will be enough, and he should be at least fifty years old, with children of his own, preferably both boys and girls, or at least one or the other. The person who is elected, along with those who elect him, should recognize that this is the most important position in the state. Just like the first sprout of any plant, if it starts well towards reaching its natural potential, it has the greatest impact on its growth; this is true not just for plants but also for both wild and domestic animals, and for humans as well. Humans, as we know, are domesticated or civilized creatures; however, they still need proper guidance and a fortunate disposition. When they receive this, they become the most divine and civilized of all animals; but if they are poorly or improperly educated, they become the most savage of creatures. Therefore, the lawmaker should not treat the education of children as a minor or trivial issue. First and foremost, anyone who genuinely cares about their education should ensure that the best person among all citizens is elected. The lawmaker should make every effort to appoint this individual as the guardian and supervisor of education. To achieve this, all the magistrates, except for the council and the prytanes, should go to the temple of Apollo and hold a ballot to elect the guardian of the law they believe would be the best supervisor of education. The candidate with the most votes, after being reviewed by all the magistrates who voted for him—except for the guardians of the law—will hold the office for five years. In the sixth year, a new person should be chosen in the same way to take over the role.
If any one dies while he is holding a public office, and more than thirty days before his term of office expires, let those whose business it is elect another to the office in the same manner as before. And if any one who is entrusted with orphans dies, let the relations both on the father's and mother's side, who are residing at home, including cousins, appoint another guardian within ten days, or be fined a drachma a day for neglect to do so.
If anyone dies while serving in a public office, and more than thirty days are left in their term, it's the responsibility of those in charge to elect a replacement in the same way as before. And if someone who is in charge of orphans dies, their relatives on both the father's and mother's sides, who are living at home, including cousins, need to appoint another guardian within ten days, or they will be fined a drachma for each day they fail to do so.
A city which has no regular courts of law ceases to be a city; and again, if a judge is silent and says no more in preliminary proceedings than the litigants, as is the case in arbitrations, he will never be able to decide justly; wherefore a multitude of judges will not easily judge well, nor a few if they are bad. The point in dispute between the parties should be made clear; and time, and deliberation, and repeated examination, greatly tend to clear up doubts. For this reason, he who goes to law with another, should go first of all to his neighbours and friends who know best the questions at issue. And if he be unable to obtain from them a satisfactory decision, let him have recourse to another court; and if the two courts cannot settle the matter, let a third put an end to the suit.
A city without regular courts of law stops being a city; also, if a judge remains silent and only responds as much as the parties involved, like in arbitrations, he won't be able to make fair decisions. This means that having a lot of judges won’t necessarily lead to good judgment, nor will having a few if they are incompetent. The issues in dispute between the parties need to be clarified, and taking time, thinking it through, and examining things repeatedly really helps clear up confusion. For this reason, anyone going to court should first talk to their neighbors and friends who understand the situation best. If they can't get a satisfactory answer from them, they should turn to another court; and if two courts can’t resolve the issue, a third court should bring the matter to a close.
Now the establishment of courts of justice may be regarded as a choice of magistrates, for every magistrate must also be a judge of some things; and the judge, though he be not a magistrate, yet in certain respects is a very important magistrate on the day on which he is determining a suit. Regarding then the judges also as magistrates, let us say who are fit to be judges, and of what they are to be judges, and how many of them are to judge in each suit. Let that be the supreme tribunal which the litigants appoint in common for themselves, choosing certain persons by agreement. And let there be two other tribunals: one for private causes, when a citizen accuses another of wronging him and wishes to get a decision; the other for public causes, in which some citizen is of opinion that the public has been wronged by an individual, and is willing to vindicate the common interests. And we must not forget to mention how the judges are to be qualified, and who they are to be. In the first place, let there be a tribunal open to all private persons who are trying causes one against another for the third time, and let this be composed as follows:—All the officers of state, as well annual as those holding office for a longer period, when the new year is about to commence, in the month following after the summer solstice, on the last day but one of the year, shall meet in some temple, and calling God to witness, shall dedicate one judge from every magistracy to be their first-fruits, choosing in each office him who seems to them to be the best, and whom they deem likely to decide the causes of his fellow-citizens during the ensuing year in the best and holiest manner. And when the election is completed, a scrutiny shall be held in the presence of the electors themselves, and if any one be rejected another shall be chosen in the same manner. Those who have undergone the scrutiny shall judge the causes of those who have declined the inferior courts, and shall give their vote openly. The councillors and other magistrates who have elected them shall be required to be hearers and spectators of the causes; and any one else may be present who pleases. If one man charges another with having intentionally decided wrong, let him go to the guardians of the law and lay his accusation before them, and he who is found guilty in such a case shall pay damages to the injured party equal to half the injury; but if he shall appear to deserve a greater penalty, the judges shall determine what additional punishment he shall suffer, and how much more he ought to pay to the public treasury, and to the party who brought the suit.
Now, the creation of courts can be seen as choosing judges, since every magistrate also serves as a judge in certain matters; and even if a judge isn’t a magistrate, they still play a crucial role on the day they decide a case. So, considering judges as magistrates too, let’s discuss who should be judges, what they should judge on, and how many judges will be involved in each case. The top court should be one that the parties involved agree upon together, picking specific individuals by consensus. Then, there should be two other courts: one for private disputes, where one citizen accuses another of wrongdoing and requests a decision; and another for public issues, where a citizen believes that the public has been harmed by someone and is willing to defend the common good. We shouldn’t forget to specify how judges should be qualified and who they should be. Firstly, there should be a court available to all individuals disputing against each other for the third time, composed as follows: all state officials, whether serving for a year or longer, must meet in a temple just before the new year, on the second-to-last day of the year, and, calling upon God as a witness, will dedicate one judge from each magistracy as their first choice, selecting the individual they deem best suited, and who they believe will fairly resolve the cases of their fellow citizens in the coming year. Once the selection is made, a review will take place in front of the electors, and if someone is rejected, another will be chosen in the same way. Those who pass this review will hear cases from those who have opted out of lower courts and will cast their votes publicly. The councilors and other magistrates who elected them must be present as observers of the cases, and anyone else is welcome to attend. If someone accuses another of having intentionally made a wrong decision, they should take their accusation to the law guardians, and if found guilty, the accused must pay damages to the harmed party amounting to half of the injury; however, if they deserve a greater penalty, the judges will decide what additional punishment they should face, along with how much more they should pay to the public treasury and to the party who filed the suit.
In the judgment of offences against the state, the people ought to participate, for when any one wrongs the state all are wronged, and may reasonably complain if they are not allowed to share in the decision. Such causes ought to originate with the people, and the ought also to have the final decision of them, but the trial of them shall take place before three of the highest magistrates, upon whom the plaintiff and the defendant shall agree; and if they are not able to come to an agreement themselves, the council shall choose one of the two proposed. And in private suits, too, as far as is possible, all should have a share; for he who has no share in the administration of justice, is apt to imagine that he has no share in the state at all. And for this reason there shall be a court of law in every tribe, and the judges shall be chosen by lot;—they shall give their decisions at once, and shall be inaccessible to entreaties. The final judgment shall rest with that court which, as we maintain, has been established in the most incorruptible form of which human things admit: this shall be the court established for those who are unable to get rid of their suits either in the courts of neighbours or of the tribes.
In cases involving offenses against the state, the public should be involved because when someone wrongs the state, it affects everyone, and they can rightfully complain if they aren't allowed to take part in the decisions. These cases should originate from the people, and they should also have the final say, but the actual trials will be conducted by three of the highest magistrates that both the plaintiff and the defendant agree on; if they can’t reach an agreement, the council will select one of the two nominees. In private disputes as well, as much as possible, everyone should have a role; because someone who has no involvement in the justice system might feel they have no stake in the state at all. For this reason, there will be a court in every tribe, and the judges will be chosen randomly; they will provide their decisions immediately and will not be swayed by appeals. The final judgment will be made by the court that we believe has been created in the most incorruptible way possible: this will be the court set up for those who can't resolve their disputes in the courts of their neighbors or tribes.
Thus much of the courts of law, which, as I was saying, cannot be precisely defined either as being or not being offices; a superficial sketch has been given of them, in which some things have been told and others omitted. For the right place of an exact statement of the laws respecting suits, under their several heads, will be at the end of the body of legislation;—let us then expect them at the end. Hitherto our legislation has been chiefly occupied with the appointment of offices. Perfect unity and exactness, extending to the whole and every particular of political administration, cannot be attained to the full, until the discussion shall have a beginning, middle, and end, and is complete in every part. At present we have reached the election of magistrates, and this may be regarded as a sufficient termination of what preceded. And now there need no longer be any delay or hesitation in beginning the work of legislation.
Much of the legal system, which, as I mentioned, can't be exactly defined as either being or not being official roles; I've provided a brief overview where some things were explained and others left out. The proper place for a thorough explanation of the laws about lawsuits, categorized by their different types, will come at the end of the legal framework; so let's look for that later. Up to now, our legislation has mainly focused on appointing officials. We can’t achieve complete unity and accuracy across all aspects of political administration until the discussion has a clear start, middle, and conclusion, and is finished in every detail. For now, we've reached the point of electing magistrates, which can be seen as a fitting conclusion to what came before. There should be no more delay or uncertainty in starting the legislative work.
CLEINIAS: I like what you have said, Stranger; and I particularly like your manner of tacking on the beginning of your new discourse to the end of the former one.
CLEINIAS: I like what you’ve said, Stranger; and I especially appreciate how you’ve tied the start of your new conversation to the end of the previous one.
ATHENIAN: Thus far, then, the old men's rational pastime has gone off well.
ATHENIAN: So far, the old men's logical activity has gone pretty well.
CLEINIAS: You mean, I suppose, their serious and noble pursuit?
CLEINIAS: You mean, I guess, their serious and honorable pursuit?
ATHENIAN: Perhaps; but I should like to know whether you and I are agreed about a certain thing.
ATHENIAN: Maybe; but I’d like to know if you and I agree on something.
CLEINIAS: About what thing?
CLEINIAS: About what?
ATHENIAN: You know the endless labour which painters expend upon their pictures—they are always putting in or taking out colours, or whatever be the term which artists employ; they seem as if they would never cease touching up their works, which are always being made brighter and more beautiful.
ATHENIAN: You know how much effort painters put into their artwork—they're always adding or removing colors, or whatever term artists use; it seems like they'll never stop perfecting their pieces, which are always getting brighter and more beautiful.
CLEINIAS: I know something of these matters from report, although I have never had any great acquaintance with the art.
CLEINIAS: I know a bit about these things from what I've heard, but I've never really gotten into the art.
ATHENIAN: No matter; we may make use of the illustration notwithstanding:—Suppose that some one had a mind to paint a figure in the most beautiful manner, in the hope that his work instead of losing would always improve as time went on—do you not see that being a mortal, unless he leaves some one to succeed him who will correct the flaws which time may introduce, and be able to add what is left imperfect through the defect of the artist, and who will further brighten up and improve the picture, all his great labour will last but a short time?
ATHENIAN: No matter; we can still use the example: Imagine someone wants to paint a figure in the most beautiful way, hoping that their work will keep getting better with time. Don’t you see that since they are human, unless they have someone to take over who can fix any flaws that time might bring and add what the artist couldn’t finish, and who can further enhance and improve the painting, all their hard work will only last for a little while?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And is not the aim of the legislator similar? First, he desires that his laws should be written down with all possible exactness; in the second place, as time goes on and he has made an actual trial of his decrees, will he not find omissions? Do you imagine that there ever was a legislator so foolish as not to know that many things are necessarily omitted, which some one coming after him must correct, if the constitution and the order of government is not to deteriorate, but to improve in the state which he has established?
ATHENIAN: Isn't the goal of the lawmaker similar? First, he wants his laws to be documented as accurately as possible; secondly, over time, after he’s put his rules into practice, won’t he discover some gaps? Do you think there has ever been a lawmaker so naive as to believe that many important things won't be left out, which someone else will need to fix if the constitution and the government he set up are to continue improving rather than falling apart?
CLEINIAS: Assuredly, that is the sort of thing which every one would desire.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, that's exactly the kind of thing everyone would want.
ATHENIAN: And if any one possesses any means of accomplishing this by word or deed, or has any way great or small by which he can teach a person to understand how he can maintain and amend the laws, he should finish what he has to say, and not leave the work incomplete.
ATHENIAN: And if anyone has the ability to do this through words or actions, or has any method, no matter how big or small, to teach someone how to uphold and improve the laws, they should share what they have to say and not leave the job half-done.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And is not this what you and I have to do at the present moment?
ATHENIAN: Isn't this exactly what you and I need to do right now?
CLEINIAS: What have we to do?
CLEINIAS: What should we do now?
ATHENIAN: As we are about to legislate and have chosen our guardians of the law, and are ourselves in the evening of life, and they as compared with us are young men, we ought not only to legislate for them, but to endeavour to make them not only guardians of the law but legislators themselves, as far as this is possible.
ATHENIAN: As we're about to create laws and have selected our guardians of the law, and since we are in the later stages of life while they are younger, we shouldn’t just legislate for them. We should also try to make them not only guardians of the law but legislators themselves, as far as that’s possible.
CLEINIAS: Certainly; if we can.
CLEINIAS: Definitely; if we can.
ATHENIAN: At any rate, we must do our best.
ATHENIAN: Anyway, we need to give it our all.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: We will say to them—O friends and saviours of our laws, in laying down any law, there are many particulars which we shall omit, and this cannot be helped; at the same time, we will do our utmost to describe what is important, and will give an outline which you shall fill up. And I will explain on what principle you are to act. Megillus and Cleinias and I have often spoken to one another touching these matters, and we are of opinion that we have spoken well. And we hope that you will be of the same mind with us, and become our disciples, and keep in view the things which in our united opinion the legislator and guardian of the law ought to keep in view. There was one main point about which we were agreed—that a man's whole energies throughout life should be devoted to the acquisition of the virtue proper to a man, whether this was to be gained by study, or habit, or some mode of acquisition, or desire, or opinion, or knowledge—and this applies equally to men and women, old and young—the aim of all should always be such as I have described; anything which may be an impediment, the good man ought to show that he utterly disregards. And if at last necessity plainly compels him to be an outlaw from his native land, rather than bow his neck to the yoke of slavery and be ruled by inferiors, and he has to fly, an exile he must be and endure all such trials, rather than accept another form of government, which is likely to make men worse. These are our original principles; and do you now, fixing your eyes upon the standard of what a man and a citizen ought or ought not to be, praise and blame the laws—blame those which have not this power of making the citizen better, but embrace those which have; and with gladness receive and live in them; bidding a long farewell to other institutions which aim at goods, as they are termed, of a different kind.
ATHENIAN: We will say to them—O friends and protectors of our laws, when creating any law, there are many details we will leave out, and that's unavoidable; at the same time, we will do our best to highlight what's important and provide a framework that you can fill in. I will explain the principles you should follow. Megillus, Cleinias, and I have often discussed these issues, and we believe we've done a good job. We hope you will share our views, become our followers, and consider the principles that both the legislator and the guardian of the law should prioritize. We all agreed on one major point—that a person’s entire focus in life should be on developing their human virtue, whether that’s achieved through study, habit, another method of acquisition, desire, opinion, or knowledge—and this applies to everyone, regardless of gender or age. The goal for all should always be as I’ve described; anything that might get in the way should be completely disregarded by a good person. If necessity forces him to become an outlaw in his own land, rather than submit to slavery and be ruled by those inferior to him, he must flee and endure the hardships of exile instead of accepting a government that could make people worse. These are our foundational principles; and now, as you focus on what a man and citizen should or shouldn’t be, judge the laws accordingly—criticize those that fail to improve citizens but embrace those that do; welcome them with joy and live by them, bidding a long farewell to other systems that aim for different kinds of goods.
Let us proceed to another class of laws, beginning with their foundation in religion. And we must first return to the number 5040—the entire number had, and has, a great many convenient divisions, and the number of the tribes which was a twelfth part of the whole, being correctly formed by 21 x 20 (5040/(21 x 20), i.e., 5040/420 = 12), also has them. And not only is the whole number divisible by twelve, but also the number of each tribe is divisible by twelve. Now every portion should be regarded by us as a sacred gift of Heaven, corresponding to the months and to the revolution of the universe (compare Tim.). Every city has a guiding and sacred principle given by nature, but in some the division or distribution has been more right than in others, and has been more sacred and fortunate. In our opinion, nothing can be more right than the selection of the number 5040, which may be divided by all numbers from one to twelve with the single exception of eleven, and that admits of a very easy correction; for if, turning to the dividend (5040), we deduct two families, the defect in the division is cured. And the truth of this may be easily proved when we have leisure. But for the present, trusting to the mere assertion of this principle, let us divide the state; and assigning to each portion some God or son of a God, let us give them altars and sacred rites, and at the altars let us hold assemblies for sacrifice twice in the month—twelve assemblies for the tribes, and twelve for the city, according to their divisions; the first in honour of the Gods and divine things, and the second to promote friendship and 'better acquaintance,' as the phrase is, and every sort of good fellowship with one another. For people must be acquainted with those into whose families and whom they marry and with those to whom they give in marriage; in such matters, as far as possible, a man should deem it all important to avoid a mistake, and with this serious purpose let games be instituted (compare Republic) in which youths and maidens shall dance together, seeing one another and being seen naked, at a proper age, and on a suitable occasion, not transgressing the rules of modesty.
Let's move on to another category of laws, starting with their basis in religion. First, we need to revisit the number 5040. This number has many useful divisions, and since the number of the tribes is one-twelfth of the whole, it is accurately represented by 21 x 20 (5040/(21 x 20), that is, 5040/420 = 12), it also has these divisions. Not only can the whole number be divided by twelve, but so can the number associated with each tribe. We should view every part as a sacred gift from Heaven, aligned with the months and the cycles of the universe (see Tim.). Each city has a guiding and sacred principle bestowed by nature; however, in some cases, the division or allocation is more fitting than in others, making it more sacred and beneficial. In our view, nothing can be more appropriate than choosing the number 5040, which can be divided by all numbers from one to twelve, with the single exception of eleven, which can easily be adjusted; if we subtract two families from the total (5040), the issue with the division is resolved. This can be easily demonstrated when we have time. For now, accepting this principle, let’s organize the state; assigning to each part a god or a son of a god, let’s create altars and sacred rituals, and at these altars, let’s hold gatherings for sacrifices twice a month—twelve gatherings for the tribes, and twelve for the city, in accordance with their divisions; the first to honor the gods and divine matters, and the second to foster friendship and “better acquaintances,” as the saying goes, and all forms of good fellowship among each other. People need to be familiar with those they marry into and those they give in marriage; in these matters, it's crucial to avoid mistakes, so with that serious intent, let’s establish games (see Republic) where young men and women can dance together, seeing and being seen naked, at the right age, and on appropriate occasions, always respecting the standards of modesty.
The directors of choruses will be the superintendents and regulators of these games, and they, together with the guardians of the law, will legislate in any matters which we have omitted; for, as we said, where there are numerous and minute details, the legislator must leave out something. And the annual officers who have experience, and know what is wanted, must make arrangements and improvements year by year, until such enactments and provisions are sufficiently determined. A ten years' experience of sacrifices and dances, if extending to all particulars, will be quite sufficient; and if the legislator be alive they shall communicate with him, but if he be dead then the several officers shall refer the omissions which come under their notice to the guardians of the law, and correct them, until all is perfect; and from that time there shall be no more change, and they shall establish and use the new laws with the others which the legislator originally gave them, and of which they are never, if they can help, to change aught; or, if some necessity overtakes them, the magistrates must be called into counsel, and the whole people, and they must go to all the oracles of the Gods; and if they are all agreed, in that case they may make the change, but if they are not agreed, by no manner of means, and any one who dissents shall prevail, as the law ordains.
The chorus directors will oversee these events, and together with the law guardians, they'll handle any issues we may have missed. As we mentioned, with so many specifics, it's impossible for the lawmakers to cover everything. The annual officers, who have experience and know what's needed, will organize and improve things year by year until the laws and provisions are clearly established. A decade of experiences with rituals and performances, covering all details, will be sufficient. If the lawmaker is still alive, they will consult with him; if he has passed, the officers will bring any omissions they notice to the law guardians for correction until everything is perfect. From that point on, there won't be any more changes; they will implement the new laws alongside the original ones given by the legislator, and they should avoid altering them unless absolutely necessary. In such cases, the magistrates and the entire community must be consulted, and they should seek guidance from all the oracles. If there’s a consensus, then changes can be made; if not, no changes will occur, and any dissenting opinion will take precedence, as the law stipulates.
Whenever any one over twenty-five years of age, having seen and been seen by others, believes himself to have found a marriage connexion which is to his mind, and suitable for the procreation of children, let him marry if he be still under the age of five-and-thirty years; but let him first hear how he ought to seek after what is suitable and appropriate (compare Arist. Pol.). For, as Cleinias says, every law should have a suitable prelude.
Whenever someone over twenty-five years old, who has seen and been seen by others, believes they have found a marriage connection that suits them and is good for having children, they should marry if they are still under thirty-five. However, they should first learn how to properly seek out what is suitable and appropriate (see Arist. Pol.). As Cleinias states, every law should have a proper introduction.
CLEINIAS: You recollect at the right moment, Stranger, and do not miss the opportunity which the argument affords of saying a word in season.
CLEINIAS: You're remembering at just the right time, Stranger, and you're not passing up the chance that the argument gives you to say something timely.
ATHENIAN: I thank you. We will say to him who is born of good parents—O my son, you ought to make such a marriage as wise men would approve. Now they would advise you neither to avoid a poor marriage, nor specially to desire a rich one; but if other things are equal, always to honour inferiors, and with them to form connexions;—this will be for the benefit of the city and of the families which are united; for the equable and symmetrical tends infinitely more to virtue than the unmixed. And he who is conscious of being too headstrong, and carried away more than is fitting in all his actions, ought to desire to become the relation of orderly parents; and he who is of the opposite temper ought to seek the opposite alliance. Let there be one word concerning all marriages:—Every man shall follow, not after the marriage which is most pleasing to himself, but after that which is most beneficial to the state. For somehow every one is by nature prone to that which is likest to himself, and in this way the whole city becomes unequal in property and in disposition; and hence there arise in most states the very results which we least desire to happen. Now, to add to the law an express provision, not only that the rich man shall not marry into the rich family, nor the powerful into the family of the powerful, but that the slower natures shall be compelled to enter into marriage with the quicker, and the quicker with the slower, may awaken anger as well as laughter in the minds of many; for there is a difficulty in perceiving that the city ought to be well mingled like a cup, in which the maddening wine is hot and fiery, but when chastened by a soberer God, receives a fair associate and becomes an excellent and temperate drink (compare Statesman). Yet in marriage no one is able to see that the same result occurs. Wherefore also the law must let alone such matters, but we should try to charm the spirits of men into believing the equability of their children's disposition to be of more importance than equality in excessive fortune when they marry; and him who is too desirous of making a rich marriage we should endeavour to turn aside by reproaches, not, however, by any compulsion of written law.
ATHENIAN: Thank you. We will tell the one born to good parents—Oh my son, you should seek a marriage that wise people would endorse. They would suggest that you neither shy away from a poor match nor rush into a rich one; but if other factors are equal, you should always respect those of lower status and build connections with them—this will benefit both the city and the families involved. A balanced and harmonious approach leads much more to virtue than an unvaried one. If someone realizes they are too stubborn and impulsive, they should aim to connect with organized parents; conversely, if someone is more laid-back, they should look for an opposite partner. One key point about all marriages should be this: every man should pursue not the marriage that pleases him the most, but the one that benefits the state the most. It seems everyone is naturally inclined towards what resembles themselves, and this is how the city becomes unequal in wealth and temperament; leading to the very outcomes we least want. Now, adding a specific law that not only prevents wealthy people from marrying into wealthy families, or powerful individuals into powerful ones, but also requires the less driven to marry the more ambitious, and vice versa, might provoke frustration as well as laughter in many. There is difficulty in understanding that the city should be well-mixed like a cup, where the strong wine becomes hot and fierce, but when tempered by a wiser influence, pairs with a good mix to create an excellent, balanced drink (see Statesman). Yet, it's hard to see that the same principle applies to marriage. Therefore, the law should avoid getting into these issues, and instead, we should encourage people to believe that the balance of their children's characters is more important than equal levels of wealth when marrying; and we should aim to dissuade those who are overly eager for a rich marriage through criticism, but not through any force of written law.
Let this then be our exhortation concerning marriage, and let us remember what was said before—that a man should cling to immortality, and leave behind him children's children to be the servants of God in his place for ever. All this and much more may be truly said by way of prelude about the duty of marriage. But if a man will not listen, and remains unsocial and alien among his fellow-citizens, and is still unmarried at thirty-five years of age, let him pay a yearly fine;—he who of the highest class shall pay a fine of a hundred drachmae, and he who is of the second class a fine of seventy drachmae; the third class shall pay sixty drachmae, and the fourth thirty drachmae, and let the money be sacred to Here; he who does not pay the fine annually shall owe ten times the sum, which the treasurer of the goddess shall exact; and if he fails in doing so, let him be answerable and give an account of the money at his audit. He who refuses to marry shall be thus punished in money, and also be deprived of all honour which the younger show to the elder; let no young man voluntarily obey him, and, if he attempt to punish any one, let every one come to the rescue and defend the injured person, and he who is present and does not come to the rescue, shall be pronounced by the law to be a coward and a bad citizen. Of the marriage portion I have already spoken; and again I say for the instruction of poor men that he who neither gives nor receives a dowry on account of poverty, has a compensation; for the citizens of our state are provided with the necessaries of life, and wives will be less likely to be insolent, and husbands to be mean and subservient to them on account of property. And he who obeys this law will do a noble action; but he who will not obey, and gives or receives more than fifty drachmae as the price of the marriage garments if he be of the lowest, or more than a mina, or a mina-and-a-half, if he be of the third or second classes, or two minae if he be of the highest class, shall owe to the public treasury a similar sum, and that which is given or received shall be sacred to Here and Zeus; and let the treasurers of these Gods exact the money, as was said before about the unmarried—that the treasurers of Here were to exact the money, or pay the fine themselves.
Let this be our encouragement regarding marriage, and let’s remember what was said earlier—that a man should embrace immortality and leave behind grandchildren to serve God in his place forever. This and much more can be truly said as an introduction to the responsibilities of marriage. But if a man won’t listen, remains unsociable and detached from his fellow citizens, and is still unmarried at thirty-five years old, he should pay an annual fine; those in the highest class will have to pay a fine of a hundred drachmas, the second class seventy drachmas, the third class sixty drachmas, and the fourth thirty drachmas, with the money being dedicated to Hera. Anyone who fails to pay the fine each year will owe ten times the amount, which the treasurer of the goddess will collect; if he does not do so, he must be accountable and report on the money during his audit. Those who refuse to marry will face monetary penalties and lose all the respect that younger people would typically show to elders; no young man should willingly follow him, and if he tries to punish anyone, everyone should come to the aid of the victim; anyone who is present and does not assist will be deemed a coward and a poor citizen under the law. I have already discussed the marriage portion; and once again I say for the benefit of poorer men that those who neither give nor receive a dowry due to poverty have a remedy; citizens in our state receive the necessities of life, so wives are less likely to be disrespectful, and husbands less likely to be petty and submissive due to financial matters. Anyone who follows this law will be performing a noble act; but anyone who ignores it and gives or receives more than fifty drachmas for the marriage garments if they are in the lowest class, or more than a mina or a mina-and-a-half for those in the second or third classes, or two minae if in the highest class, will owe the public treasury a similar amount, and whatever is given or received will be dedicated to Hera and Zeus; and let the treasurers of these gods collect the money, as previously stated regarding the unmarried—that the treasurers of Hera would collect the funds or pay the fine themselves.
The betrothal by a father shall be valid in the first degree, that by a grandfather in the second degree, and in the third degree, betrothal by brothers who have the same father; but if there are none of these alive, the betrothal by a mother shall be valid in like manner; in cases of unexampled fatality, the next of kin and the guardians shall have authority. What are to be the rites before marriages, or any other sacred acts, relating either to future, present, or past marriages, shall be referred to the interpreters; and he who follows their advice may be satisfied. Touching the marriage festival, they shall assemble not more than five male and five female friends of both families; and a like number of members of the family of either sex, and no man shall spend more than his means will allow; he who is of the richest class may spend a mina,—he who is of the second, half a mina, and in the same proportion as the census of each decreases: all men shall praise him who is obedient to the law; but he who is disobedient shall be punished by the guardians of the law as a man wanting in true taste, and uninstructed in the laws of bridal song. Drunkenness is always improper, except at the festivals of the God who gave wine; and peculiarly dangerous, when a man is engaged in the business of marriage; at such a crisis of their lives a bride and bridegroom ought to have all their wits about them—they ought to take care that their offspring may be born of reasonable beings; for on what day or night Heaven will give them increase, who can say? Moreover, they ought not to begetting children when their bodies are dissipated by intoxication, but their offspring should be compact and solid, quiet and compounded properly; whereas the drunkard is all abroad in all his actions, and beside himself both in body and soul. Wherefore, also, the drunken man is bad and unsteady in sowing the seed of increase, and is likely to beget offspring who will be unstable and untrustworthy, and cannot be expected to walk straight either in body or mind. Hence during the whole year and all his life long, and especially while he is begetting children, he ought to take care and not intentionally do what is injurious to health, or what involves insolence and wrong; for he cannot help leaving the impression of himself on the souls and bodies of his offspring, and he begets children in every way inferior. And especially on the day and night of marriage should a man abstain from such things. For the beginning, which is also a God dwelling in man, preserves all things, if it meet with proper respect from each individual. He who marries is further to consider, that one of the two houses in the lot is the nest and nursery of his young, and there he is to marry and make a home for himself and bring up his children, going away from his father and mother. For in friendships there must be some degree of desire, in order to cement and bind together diversities of character; but excessive intercourse not having the desire which is created by time, insensibly dissolves friendships from a feeling of satiety; wherefore a man and his wife shall leave to his and her father and mother their own dwelling-places, and themselves go as to a colony and dwell there, and visit and be visited by their parents; and they shall beget and bring up children, handing on the torch of life from one generation to another, and worshipping the Gods according to law for ever.
A father's betrothal is valid in the first degree, a grandfather's in the second degree, and in the third degree, a betrothal by brothers who share the same father; if none of these relatives are alive, a mother's betrothal will also be valid. In cases of extreme misfortune, the next of kin and guardians will have authority. The rituals before marriages, or any other sacred acts concerning future, present, or past marriages, will be determined by the interpreters; anyone who follows their guidance can be assured. Regarding the marriage celebration, both families should gather no more than five male and five female friends, as well as the same number of family members of either gender. No one should spend more than they can afford; those in the wealthiest class may spend a mina, those in the second class half a mina, with proportional spending as income decreases. Everyone should praise those who obey the law, while those who do not will face punishment from the guardians for lacking good taste and understanding of wedding traditions. Drunkenness is generally inappropriate, except during the festivals honoring the God of wine, and is especially risky during marriage preparations. Brides and grooms should keep their wits about them at this important time in their lives, ensuring their children are born to rational parents; after all, no one knows when Heaven will grant them children. Moreover, they should avoid having children while under the influence, as those children should be well-formed, calm, and properly conceived; a drunkard’s actions are uncontrolled, affecting both body and soul. Therefore, whether throughout the year or for their entire lives, especially while trying to conceive, individuals should refrain from actions that harm their health or show disrespect. They inevitably leave a mark on the souls and bodies of their children, producing offspring that may fall short in various ways. Particularly on the day and night of the marriage, one should avoid such behaviors. The beginning, which is also a divine force within a person, protects all things when treated with due respect. Those getting married should remember that one of their homes will become a place of nurturing for their children, as they create a life and family outside of their parents' home. Friendships require some level of desire to connect diverse characters, but too much interaction without the desire that builds over time can weaken bonds through a feeling of excess. Thus, a man and his wife should leave their respective parents' homes to establish their own, visiting and being visited by their parents. They will have children and raise them, passing on the torch of life from one generation to the next, while worshiping the Gods according to the law forever.
In the next place, we have to consider what sort of property will be most convenient. There is no difficulty either in understanding or acquiring most kinds of property, but there is great difficulty in what relates to slaves. And the reason is, that we speak about them in a way which is right and which is not right; for what we say about our slaves is consistent and also inconsistent with our practice about them.
Next, we need to think about what type of property will be the most practical. It’s easy to understand and obtain most types of property, but dealing with slaves is really complicated. The reason is that we talk about them in ways that are both correct and incorrect; what we say about our slaves doesn't always match up with how we actually treat them.
MEGILLUS: I do not understand, Stranger, what you mean.
MEGILLUS: I don’t get what you’re saying, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: I am not surprised, Megillus, for the state of the Helots among the Lacedaemonians is of all Hellenic forms of slavery the most controverted and disputed about, some approving and some condemning it; there is less dispute about the slavery which exists among the Heracleots, who have subjugated the Mariandynians, and about the Thessalian Penestae. Looking at these and the like examples, what ought we to do concerning property in slaves? I made a remark, in passing, which naturally elicited a question about my meaning from you. It was this:—We know that all would agree that we should have the best and most attached slaves whom we can get. For many a man has found his slaves better in every way than brethren or sons, and many times they have saved the lives and property of their masters and their whole house—such tales are well known.
ATHENIAN: I'm not surprised, Megillus, because the situation of the Helots among the Lacedaemonians is the most debated and controversial form of slavery in all of Greece, with some people supporting it and others condemning it. There’s less disagreement about the slavery among the Heracleots, who have conquered the Mariandynians, and about the Thessalian Penestae. Considering these examples, what should we do regarding ownership of slaves? I made a comment that got you asking for clarification. It was this: We all agree that we should have the best and most loyal slaves available. Many people have found their slaves to be better in every way than brothers or sons, and often, they have saved the lives and property of their masters and their entire households—these stories are well known.
MEGILLUS: To be sure.
MEGILLUS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But may we not also say that the soul of the slave is utterly corrupt, and that no man of sense ought to trust them? And the wisest of our poets, speaking of Zeus, says:
ATHENIAN: But can we not also say that a slave's soul is completely corrupt, and that no sensible person should trust them? And the wisest of our poets, talking about Zeus, says:
'Far-seeing Zeus takes away half the understanding of men whom the day of slavery subdues.'
'All-seeing Zeus takes away half the understanding of men whom the day of slavery overwhelms.'
Different persons have got these two different notions of slaves in their minds—some of them utterly distrust their servants, and, as if they were wild beasts, chastise them with goads and whips, and make their souls three times, or rather many times, as slavish as they were before;—and others do just the opposite.
Different people have these two different ideas about slaves in their minds—some completely distrust their servants and, treating them like wild animals, punish them with whips and prods, making them feel even more enslaved than before; while others do the exact opposite.
MEGILLUS: True.
MEGILLUS: For real.
CLEINIAS: Then what are we to do in our own country, Stranger, seeing that there are such differences in the treatment of slaves by their owners?
CLEINIAS: So, what should we do in our own country, Stranger, considering there are such differences in how owners treat their slaves?
ATHENIAN: Well, Cleinias, there can be no doubt that man is a troublesome animal, and therefore he is not very manageable, nor likely to become so, when you attempt to introduce the necessary division of slave, and freeman, and master.
ATHENIAN: Well, Cleinias, there’s no doubt that humans can be difficult creatures, and because of that, they’re not really easy to handle, nor are they likely to become so when you try to establish the necessary divisions between slaves, free people, and masters.
CLEINIAS: That is obvious.
CLEINIAS: That’s clear.
ATHENIAN: He is a troublesome piece of goods, as has been often shown by the frequent revolts of the Messenians, and the great mischiefs which happen in states having many slaves who speak the same language, and the numerous robberies and lawless life of the Italian banditti, as they are called. A man who considers all this is fairly at a loss. Two remedies alone remain to us,—not to have the slaves of the same country, nor if possible, speaking the same language (compare Aris. Pol.); in this way they will more easily be held in subjection: secondly, we should tend them carefully, not only out of regard to them, but yet more out of respect to ourselves. And the right treatment of slaves is to behave properly to them, and to do to them, if possible, even more justice than to those who are our equals; for he who naturally and genuinely reverences justice, and hates injustice, is discovered in his dealings with any class of men to whom he can easily be unjust. And he who in regard to the natures and actions of his slaves is undefiled by impiety and injustice, will best sow the seeds of virtue in them; and this may be truly said of every master, and tyrant, and of every other having authority in relation to his inferiors. Slaves ought to be punished as they deserve, and not admonished as if they were freemen, which will only make them conceited. The language used to a servant ought always to be that of a command (compare Arist. Pol.), and we ought not to jest with them, whether they are males or females—this is a foolish way which many people have of setting up their slaves, and making the life of servitude more disagreeable both for them and for their masters.
ATHENIAN: He is a real troublemaker, as has often been shown by the constant uprisings of the Messenians and the significant issues that arise in states with many slaves who share the same language, as well as the repeated thefts and lawless behavior of the Italian bandits. A person who thinks about all this is understandably confused. We have only two solutions left: first, not to have slaves from the same country, or, if possible, those who speak the same language (compare Aris. Pol.); this way, it will be easier to keep them under control. Second, we should take good care of them, not just for their sake but even more so for our own. The right way to treat slaves is to act fairly towards them and, if possible, to give them even more justice than we give to our equals; because someone who truly respects justice and detests injustice is revealed in how they deal with any group of people they could easily be unfair to. A master who remains untainted by impiety and injustice concerning the nature and actions of his slaves will best cultivate virtue in them; this applies to every master, tyrant, and anyone else in authority over their subordinates. Slaves should be punished as they deserve, not warned as if they were free, which will only make them arrogant. The language we use with a servant should always be commanding (compare Arist. Pol.), and we shouldn't joke with them, whether they are male or female—this is a foolish habit that many people have, making both the life of the slaves and that of their masters more unpleasant.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Now that each of the citizens is provided, as far as possible, with a sufficient number of suitable slaves who can help him in what he has to do, we may next proceed to describe their dwellings.
ATHENIAN: Now that each citizen has, as much as possible, a good number of suitable slaves to assist them in their tasks, we can move on to describe their homes.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: The city being new and hitherto uninhabited, care ought to be taken of all the buildings, and the manner of building each of them, and also of the temples and walls. These, Cleinias, were matters which properly came before the marriages;—but, as we are only talking, there is no objection to changing the order. If, however, our plan of legislation is ever to take effect, then the house shall precede the marriage if God so will, and afterwards we will come to the regulations about marriage; but at present we are only describing these matters in a general outline.
ATHENIAN: Since the city is new and has not been settled yet, we need to pay attention to all the buildings, how each one is constructed, as well as the temples and walls. Cleinias, these are issues that should come before discussions about marriages; however, since we’re just having a conversation, there’s no harm in shifting the order. But if we are ever going to implement our laws, then the house should come before the marriage if that’s how it’s meant to be, and later we can address the rules about marriage. For now, we are just outlining these topics in a general way.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: The temples are to be placed all round the agora, and the whole city built on the heights in a circle (compare Arist. Pol.), for the sake of defence and for the sake of purity. Near the temples are to be placed buildings for the magistrates and the courts of law; in these plaintiff and defendant will receive their due, and the places will be regarded as most holy, partly because they have to do with holy things: and partly because they are the dwelling-places of holy Gods: and in them will be held the courts in which cases of homicide and other trials of capital offences may fitly take place. As to the walls, Megillus, I agree with Sparta in thinking that they should be allowed to sleep in the earth, and that we should not attempt to disinter them (compare Arist. Pol.); there is a poetical saying, which is finely expressed, that 'walls ought to be of steel and iron, and not of earth;' besides, how ridiculous of us to be sending out our young men annually into the country to dig and to trench, and to keep off the enemy by fortifications, under the idea that they are not to be allowed to set foot in our territory, and then, that we should surround ourselves with a wall, which, in the first place, is by no means conducive to the health of cities, and is also apt to produce a certain effeminacy in the minds of the inhabitants, inviting men to run thither instead of repelling their enemies, and leading them to imagine that their safety is due not to their keeping guard day and night, but that when they are protected by walls and gates, then they may sleep in safety; as if they were not meant to labour, and did not know that true repose comes from labour, and that disgraceful indolence and a careless temper of mind is only the renewal of trouble. But if men must have walls, the private houses ought to be so arranged from the first that the whole city may be one wall, having all the houses capable of defence by reason of their uniformity and equality towards the streets (compare Arist. Pol.). The form of the city being that of a single dwelling will have an agreeable aspect, and being easily guarded will be infinitely better for security. Until the original building is completed, these should be the principal objects of the inhabitants; and the wardens of the city should superintend the work, and should impose a fine on him who is negligent; and in all that relates to the city they should have a care of cleanliness, and not allow a private person to encroach upon any public property either by buildings or excavations. Further, they ought to take care that the rains from heaven flow off easily, and of any other matters which may have to be administered either within or without the city. The guardians of the law shall pass any further enactments which their experience may show to be necessary, and supply any other points in which the law may be deficient. And now that these matters, and the buildings about the agora, and the gymnasia, and places of instruction, and theatres, are all ready and waiting for scholars and spectators, let us proceed to the subjects which follow marriage in the order of legislation.
ATHENIAN: The temples will be built all around the agora, with the entire city constructed in a circular shape on the hills, for the sake of defense and cleanliness. Near the temples, there will be buildings for the magistrates and courts of law; here, plaintiffs and defendants will receive justice, and these places will be considered sacred, partly because they are related to holy matters and partly because they are the homes of the gods. In these courts, cases of murder and other serious crimes will appropriately take place. As for the walls, Megillus, I agree with Sparta that they should be allowed to remain buried in the earth, and we shouldn't try to uncover them; there is a well-known saying that ‘walls should be made of steel and iron, not earth.’ Besides, isn't it absurd to send our young men out each year to dig trenches and fortify against the enemy, believing they shouldn’t set foot in our land, and then surround ourselves with walls that are not only unhealthy for cities but also create a sense of vulnerability among the people? It encourages them to run toward the walls instead of protecting against enemies, leading them to think their safety comes from walls and gates rather than their constant vigilance. True peace comes from hard work, and idleness only leads to trouble returning. If we must have walls, the private houses should be arranged so that the entire city functions as one stronghold, with all homes defensible due to their uniformity and equality along the streets. The city's shape as a single unit will look appealing and will be much easier to defend. Until the main structure is completed, these should be the main concerns of the residents; those in charge of the city should oversee the construction and impose fines on anyone who is negligent. They should ensure cleanliness within the city and prevent any individual from encroaching on public property through construction or excavation. Additionally, they must ensure that rainwater drains easily and manage other necessary tasks inside and outside the city. The guardians of the law will implement further measures as needed based on their experience and address any gaps in the law. Now that these issues, including the buildings around the agora, gymnasiums, places of learning, and theaters, are ready for students and audiences, let’s move on to the topics that come after marriage in our legislative agenda.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Assuming that marriages exist already, Cleinias, the mode of life during the year after marriage, before children are born, will follow next in order. In what way bride and bridegroom ought to live in a city which is to be superior to other cities, is a matter not at all easy for us to determine. There have been many difficulties already, but this will be the greatest of them, and the most disagreeable to the many. Still I cannot but say what appears to me to be right and true, Cleinias.
ATHENIAN: Assuming that marriages already happen, Cleinias, the way of life during the year after marriage, before children arrive, comes next in order. It’s not at all easy for us to decide how a bride and bridegroom should live in a city that aims to be better than others. There have already been many challenges, but this one will be the hardest and most unpleasant for many. Still, I have to express what I believe is right and true, Cleinias.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: He who imagines that he can give laws for the public conduct of states, while he leaves the private life of citizens wholly to take care of itself; who thinks that individuals may pass the day as they please, and that there is no necessity of order in all things; he, I say, who gives up the control of their private lives, and supposes that they will conform to law in their common and public life, is making a great mistake. Why have I made this remark? Why, because I am going to enact that the bridegrooms should live at the common tables, just as they did before marriage. This was a singularity when first enacted by the legislator in your parts of the world, Megillus and Cleinias, as I should suppose, on the occasion of some war or other similar danger, which caused the passing of the law, and which would be likely to occur in thinly-peopled places, and in times of pressure. But when men had once tried and been accustomed to a common table, experience showed that the institution greatly conduced to security; and in some such manner the custom of having common tables arose among you.
ATHENIAN: Someone who thinks they can create laws for how states should operate while completely ignoring the private lives of citizens is mistaken. They believe that individuals can do whatever they want throughout the day and that there’s no need for order in everything; this person, who relinquishes control over people's private lives, assumes that they will still follow laws in public life, and that’s a huge error. Why am I bringing this up? Because I'm proposing that grooms should continue to eat at the communal tables just like they did before marriage. This was something unique when first introduced by the lawmakers in your region, Megillus and Cleinias, likely due to a war or some other threat that demanded such a law, which is more common in sparsely populated areas or during difficult times. However, once people experienced and got used to communal dining, it became clear that this practice greatly enhanced security; that's how the tradition of communal tables came about among you.
CLEINIAS: Likely enough.
CLEINIAS: Probably.
ATHENIAN: I said that there may have been singularity and danger in imposing such a custom at first, but that now there is not the same difficulty. There is, however, another institution which is the natural sequel to this, and would be excellent, if it existed anywhere, but at present it does not. The institution of which I am about to speak is not easily described or executed; and would be like the legislator 'combing wool into the fire,' as people say, or performing any other impossible and useless feat.
ATHENIAN: I mentioned that there might have been some uniqueness and risk in introducing such a custom initially, but that now it's not as challenging. However, there’s another system that naturally follows this one and would be great if it actually existed anywhere, but right now it doesn't. The system I’m about to discuss isn’t easy to define or implement; it would be like the legislator 'combing wool into the fire,' as the saying goes, or trying to do something impractical and pointless.
CLEINIAS: What is the cause, Stranger, of this extreme hesitation?
CLEINIAS: What’s causing you to hesitate so much, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: You shall hear without any fruitless loss of time. That which has law and order in a state is the cause of every good, but that which is disordered or ill-ordered is often the ruin of that which is well-ordered; and at this point the argument is now waiting. For with you, Cleinias and Megillus, the common tables of men are, as I said, a heaven-born and admirable institution, but you are mistaken in leaving the women unregulated by law. They have no similar institution of public tables in the light of day, and just that part of the human race which is by nature prone to secrecy and stealth on account of their weakness—I mean the female sex—has been left without regulation by the legislator, which is a great mistake. And, in consequence of this neglect, many things have grown lax among you, which might have been far better, if they had been only regulated by law; for the neglect of regulations about women may not only be regarded as a neglect of half the entire matter (Arist. Pol.), but in proportion as woman's nature is inferior to that of men in capacity for virtue, in that degree the consequence of such neglect is more than twice as important. The careful consideration of this matter, and the arranging and ordering on a common principle of all our institutions relating both to men and women, greatly conduces to the happiness of the state. But at present, such is the unfortunate condition of mankind, that no man of sense will even venture to speak of common tables in places and cities in which they have never been established at all; and how can any one avoid being utterly ridiculous, who attempts to compel women to show in public how much they eat and drink? There is nothing at which the sex is more likely to take offence. For women are accustomed to creep into dark places, and when dragged out into the light they will exert their utmost powers of resistance, and be far too much for the legislator. And therefore, as I said before, in most places they will not endure to have the truth spoken without raising a tremendous outcry, but in this state perhaps they may. And if we may assume that our whole discussion about the state has not been mere idle talk, I should like to prove to you, if you will consent to listen, that this institution is good and proper; but if you had rather not, I will refrain.
ATHENIAN: You’ll hear this without wasting any more time. What brings law and order to a society is the foundation of all that is good, while chaos can often destroy what is well-ordered. Right now, we’re at a point in the discussion. Cleinias and Megillus, as I mentioned, the communal meals we have are a wonderful and inspired practice, but you’re mistaken to leave women without legal regulation. They don’t have a similar public dining system, and that part of humanity, which tends to be secretive and sneaky due to their vulnerabilities—I mean women—has been overlooked by lawmakers, and that’s a significant error. As a result of this neglect, many issues have arisen among you that could have been much better had there been legal guidelines; for ignoring regulations regarding women may not just be seen as neglecting half of the whole issue, but given that women are generally viewed as having less capacity for virtue than men, the impact of this neglect is even more significant. Thoughtfully addressing this topic and structuring all our systems related to both men and women on a common principle is key to the happiness of the state. However, right now, the unfortunate reality is that no sensible person would even dare discuss communal meals in places that have never had them; and who wouldn’t look ridiculous trying to force women to openly show how much they eat and drink? That’s something women are likely to find offensive. They’re used to hiding away in the shadows, and when pulled into the light, they’ll resist with all their might, posing a real challenge for lawmakers. So, as I mentioned earlier, in most places, they won’t tolerate the truth without causing a huge uproar, but maybe in this state, they might. If we can agree that our whole conversation about the state hasn’t been just idle chatter, I’d like to show you that this institution is beneficial and appropriate, but if you prefer not to hear it, I’ll hold back.
CLEINIAS: There is nothing which we should both of us like better, Stranger, than to hear what you have to say.
CLEINIAS: There’s nothing we’d both enjoy more, Stranger, than hearing what you have to say.
ATHENIAN: Very good; and you must not be surprised if I go back a little, for we have plenty of leisure, and there is nothing to prevent us from considering in every point of view the subject of law.
ATHENIAN: That's great; and you shouldn't be surprised if I revisit some points, since we have plenty of time, and nothing is stopping us from exploring the topic of law from every angle.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then let us return once more to what we were saying at first. Every man should understand that the human race either had no beginning at all, and will never have an end, but always will be and has been; or that it began an immense while ago.
ATHENIAN: Then let’s go back to what we were saying before. Every person should realize that humanity either had no beginning and will never end, but has always existed and always will; or that it started a very long time ago.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Well, and have there not been constitutions and destructions of states, and all sorts of pursuits both orderly and disorderly, and diverse desires of meats and drinks always, and in all the world, and all sorts of changes of the seasons in which animals may be expected to have undergone innumerable transformations of themselves?
ATHENIAN: Well, haven’t there been systems of government and the collapse of states, and all kinds of activities both organized and chaotic, and various cravings for food and drinks throughout history, and across the globe, along with all sorts of seasonal changes that animals would have likely experienced countless transformations?
CLEINIAS: No doubt.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And may we not suppose that vines appeared, which had previously no existence, and also olives, and the gifts of Demeter and her daughter, of which one Triptolemus was the minister, and that, before these existed, animals took to devouring each other as they do still?
ATHENIAN: Can we not assume that vines emerged, which didn’t exist before, along with olives and the offerings from Demeter and her daughter, with Triptolemus as their messenger? And that before these existed, animals were still eating each other just as they do now?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Again, the practice of men sacrificing one another still exists among many nations; while, on the other hand, we hear of other human beings who did not even venture to taste the flesh of a cow and had no animal sacrifices, but only cakes and fruits dipped in honey, and similar pure offerings, but no flesh of animals; from these they abstained under the idea that they ought not to eat them, and might not stain the altars of the Gods with blood. For in those days men are said to have lived a sort of Orphic life, having the use of all lifeless things, but abstaining from all living things.
ATHENIAN: Once again, the practice of people sacrificing one another still happens in many cultures; meanwhile, there are others who wouldn’t even consider tasting the flesh of a cow and performed no animal sacrifices, only offering cakes and fruits dipped in honey, and similar pure gifts, totally avoiding animal flesh. They believed they shouldn’t eat it, as they didn’t want to stain the altars of the Gods with blood. In those days, people are said to have led a sort of Orphic life, using all inanimate things but refraining from taking from any living beings.
CLEINIAS: Such has been the constant tradition, and is very likely true.
CLEINIAS: That has always been the tradition, and it’s probably true.
ATHENIAN: Some one might say to us, What is the drift of all this?
ATHENIAN: Someone might ask us, What's the point of all this?
CLEINIAS: A very pertinent question, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: That's a really relevant question, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: And therefore I will endeavour, Cleinias, if I can, to draw the natural inference.
ATHENIAN: So, Cleinias, I’ll try to figure out the obvious conclusion if I can.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: I see that among men all things depend upon three wants and desires, of which the end is virtue, if they are rightly led by them, or the opposite if wrongly. Now these are eating and drinking, which begin at birth—every animal has a natural desire for them, and is violently excited, and rebels against him who says that he must not satisfy all his pleasures and appetites, and get rid of all the corresponding pains—and the third and greatest and sharpest want and desire breaks out last, and is the fire of sexual lust, which kindles in men every species of wantonness and madness. And these three disorders we must endeavour to master by the three great principles of fear and law and right reason; turning them away from that which is called pleasantest to the best, using the Muses and the Gods who preside over contests to extinguish their increase and influx.
ATHENIAN: I see that among men, everything depends on three needs and desires, which can lead to virtue if managed correctly, or the opposite if misdirected. These are eating and drinking, which start at birth—every creature has a natural craving for them and reacts strongly, rebelling against anyone who insists they shouldn’t fulfill their desires and eliminate their discomfort. The third and most intense desire surfaces last and is the fire of sexual lust, which ignites all kinds of indulgence and madness in people. We must strive to control these three urges with the guiding principles of fear, law, and sound judgment; redirecting them from what seems most pleasurable to what is truly best, calling upon the Muses and the Gods who oversee competitions to curb their increase and influence.
But to return:—After marriage let us speak of the birth of children, and after their birth of their nurture and education. In the course of discussion the several laws will be perfected, and we shall at last arrive at the common tables. Whether such associations are to be confined to men, or extended to women also, we shall see better when we approach and take a nearer view of them; and we may then determine what previous institutions are required and will have to precede them. As I said before, we shall see them more in detail, and shall be better able to lay down the laws which are proper or suited to them.
But to get back on track: After marriage, let's discuss the birth of children, and after that, their care and education. Throughout this discussion, we will refine the various laws, and eventually, we will arrive at the common tables. Whether these associations should be limited to men or extended to women as well will become clearer when we take a closer look at them; we can then decide what existing institutions are necessary and need to come before them. As I mentioned earlier, we will explore them more thoroughly and will be better prepared to establish the appropriate laws for them.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Totally agree.
ATHENIAN: Let us keep in mind the words which have now been spoken; for hereafter there may be need of them.
ATHENIAN: Let’s remember what has just been said, because we might need it later.
CLEINIAS: What do you bid us keep in mind?
CLEINIAS: What do you want us to remember?
ATHENIAN: That which we comprehended under the three words—first, eating, secondly, drinking, thirdly, the excitement of love.
ATHENIAN: What we understood by the three words—first, eating, second, drinking, and third, the thrill of love.
CLEINIAS: We shall be sure to remember, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: We'll totally remember, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Very good. Then let us now proceed to marriage, and teach persons in what way they shall beget children, threatening them, if they disobey, with the terrors of the law.
ATHENIAN: Great. Now let's talk about marriage and how people should have children, warning them that if they don’t follow the rules, they’ll face legal consequences.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: The bride and bridegroom should consider that they are to produce for the state the best and fairest specimens of children which they can. Now all men who are associated in any action always succeed when they attend and give their mind to what they are doing, but when they do not give their mind or have no mind, they fail; wherefore let the bridegroom give his mind to the bride and to the begetting of children, and the bride in like manner give her mind to the bridegroom, and particularly at the time when their children are not yet born. And let the women whom we have chosen be the overseers of such matters, and let them in whatever number, large or small, and at whatever time the magistrates may command, assemble every day in the temple of Eileithyia during a third part of the day, and being there assembled, let them inform one another of any one whom they see, whether man or woman, of those who are begetting children, disregarding the ordinances given at the time when the nuptial sacrifices and ceremonies were performed. Let the begetting of children and the supervision of those who are begetting them continue ten years and no longer, during the time when marriage is fruitful. But if any continue without children up to this time, let them take counsel with their kindred and with the women holding the office of overseer and be divorced for their mutual benefit. If, however, any dispute arises about what is proper and for the interest of either party, they shall choose ten of the guardians of the law and abide by their permission and appointment. The women who preside over these matters shall enter into the houses of the young, and partly by admonitions and partly by threats make them give over their folly and error: if they persist, let the women go and tell the guardians of the law, and the guardians shall prevent them. But if they too cannot prevent them, they shall bring the matter before the people; and let them write up their names and make oath that they cannot reform such and such an one; and let him who is thus written up, if he cannot in a court of law convict those who have inscribed his name, be deprived of the privileges of a citizen in the following respects:—let him not go to weddings nor to the thanksgivings after the birth of children; and if he go, let any one who pleases strike him with impunity; and let the same regulations hold about women: let not a woman be allowed to appear abroad, or receive honour, or go to nuptial and birthday festivals, if she in like manner be written up as acting disorderly and cannot obtain a verdict. And if, when they themselves have done begetting children according to the law, a man or woman have connexion with another man or woman who are still begetting children, let the same penalties be inflicted upon them as upon those who are still having a family; and when the time for procreation has passed let the man or woman who refrains in such matters be held in esteem, and let those who do not refrain be held in the contrary of esteem—that is to say, disesteem. Now, if the greater part of mankind behave modestly, the enactments of law may be left to slumber; but, if they are disorderly, the enactments having been passed, let them be carried into execution. To every man the first year is the beginning of life, and the time of birth ought to be written down in the temples of their fathers as the beginning of existence to every child, whether boy or girl. Let every phratria have inscribed on a whited wall the names of the successive archons by whom the years are reckoned. And near to them let the living members of the phratria be inscribed, and when they depart life let them be erased. The limit of marriageable ages for a woman shall be from sixteen to twenty years at the longest,—for a man, from thirty to thirty-five years; and let a woman hold office at forty, and a man at thirty years. Let a man go out to war from twenty to sixty years, and for a woman, if there appear any need to make use of her in military service, let the time of service be after she shall have brought forth children up to fifty years of age; and let regard be had to what is possible and suitable to each.
ATHENIAN: The bride and groom should realize that they are meant to create the best possible children for the state. All those involved in any endeavor succeed when they focus and pay attention to what they're doing, but when they don’t, they fail. Therefore, the groom should focus on the bride and the conception of children, and the bride, in turn, should focus on the groom, especially before their children are born. The women we’ve chosen should oversee these matters, and regardless of their numbers and when the magistrates request it, they should gather every day in the temple of Eileithyia for one-third of the day. While there, they should share information about anyone, man or woman, who is trying to have children, disregarding the rules established at the time of the wedding sacrifices and ceremonies. The effort to conceive and oversee this process should last ten years and no longer, as that is the fruitful period of marriage. If anyone remains childless after this time, they should consult their relatives and the overseeing women and consider divorce for the mutual benefit of both. If any disputes arise about what is appropriate for either party, they should select ten guardians of the law to resolve the issue and abide by their decisions. The overseeing women should enter the homes of the young couples and, using both encouragement and warnings, persuade them to stop their foolishness. If they do not comply, the women should inform the guardians of the law, who will take action. If the guardians also cannot intervene, the matter should be brought before the public, and they should document the names of those who cannot be reformed and make an oath to that effect. Anyone listed this way, if unable to prove their case in court, will lose certain citizen privileges: they will be barred from attending weddings or celebrations after the birth of children, and anyone may strike them without consequence. The same rules apply to women: they will also be prohibited from appearing in public or receiving honors, or from attending weddings and birthday celebrations if they are noted for acting disorderly and cannot obtain a favorable verdict. If, after having children legally, a man or woman becomes involved with someone still trying to have children, they will face the same penalties as those currently starting a family. Once the procreation phase has passed, those who choose to refrain should be respected, while those who do not should be held in disesteem. If most people act with modesty, the laws can be relaxed; however, if they are unruly, the laws should be enforced. For every person, the first year marks the beginning of life, and the date of birth should be noted in their family temples as the start of existence for every child, whether a boy or a girl. Each phratria should have the names of the successive archons who mark the years inscribed on a white wall. Nearby, the living members of the phratria should also be listed and removed upon their death. The age limit for marriage for women should be between sixteen and twenty years at most; for men, it should be from thirty to thirty-five. A woman can hold office at forty, and a man at thirty. Men should be able to go to war between the ages of twenty and sixty, and for women, if there is a need for their military service, it should be after they've had children until they reach fifty years of age. Each case should be considered based on what is feasible and appropriate.
BOOK VII.
And now, assuming children of both sexes to have been born, it will be proper for us to consider, in the next place, their nurture and education; this cannot be left altogether unnoticed, and yet may be thought a subject fitted rather for precept and admonition than for law. In private life there are many little things, not always apparent, arising out of the pleasures and pains and desires of individuals, which run counter to the intention of the legislator, and make the characters of the citizens various and dissimilar:—this is an evil in states; for by reason of their smallness and frequent occurrence, there would be an unseemliness and want of propriety in making them penal by law; and if made penal, they are the destruction of the written law because mankind get the habit of frequently transgressing the law in small matters. The result is that you cannot legislate about them, and still less can you be silent. I speak somewhat darkly, but I shall endeavour also to bring my wares into the light of day, for I acknowledge that at present there is a want of clearness in what I am saying.
And now, assuming that children of both genders have been born, we should consider their upbringing and education next. This topic can't be completely ignored, yet it seems more suited for guidance and advice than for laws. In everyday life, there are many small factors, often not obvious, that come from people's pleasures, pains, and desires, which contradict the legislator's aims and make citizens' characters diverse and different. This is a problem for societies; because of their minor and frequent nature, it wouldn't be appropriate to make them illegal. If they were made illegal, it would undermine the written law since people would often get into the habit of breaking the law over minor issues. As a result, it's difficult to legislate on them, and even harder to remain silent. I may be somewhat unclear, but I will try to clarify my points, as I recognize that my current explanation lacks transparency.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN. Am I not right in maintaining that a good education is that which tends most to the improvement of mind and body?
ATHENIAN. Am I not correct in saying that a good education is one that mostly enhances both mind and body?
CLEINIAS: Undoubtedly.
Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And nothing can be plainer than that the fairest bodies are those which grow up from infancy in the best and straightest manner?
ATHENIAN: It's clear that the most beautiful bodies are those that develop from childhood in the best and straightest way, right?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And do we not further observe that the first shoot of every living thing is by far the greatest and fullest? Many will even contend that a man at twenty-five does not reach twice the height which he attained at five.
ATHENIAN: And don't we also notice that the first growth of every living thing is often the biggest and most full? Many people will even argue that a man at twenty-five doesn't grow to be more than twice the height he was at five.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Well, and is not rapid growth without proper and abundant exercise the source endless evils in the body?
ATHENIAN: Well, isn't fast growth without enough proper exercise the source of endless problems in the body?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: And the body should have the most exercise when it receives most nourishment?
ATHENIAN: So, the body should get the most exercise when it gets the most food?
CLEINIAS: But, Stranger, are we to impose this great amount of exercise upon newly-born infants?
CLEINIAS: But, Stranger, are we really going to make newborn babies do all this exercise?
ATHENIAN: Nay, rather on the bodies of infants still unborn.
ATHENIAN: No, rather on the bodies of unborn infants.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, my good sir? In the process of gestation?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, my good man? During the process of pregnancy?
ATHENIAN: Exactly. I am not at all surprised that you have never heard of this very peculiar sort of gymnastic applied to such little creatures, which, although strange, I will endeavour to explain to you.
ATHENIAN: Exactly. I'm not surprised at all that you've never heard of this really unusual kind of workout for such tiny beings, which, although odd, I will try to explain to you.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: The practice is more easy for us to understand than for you, by reason of certain amusements which are carried to excess by us at Athens. Not only boys, but often older persons, are in the habit of keeping quails and cocks (compare Republic), which they train to fight one another. And they are far from thinking that the contests in which they stir them up to fight with one another are sufficient exercise; for, in addition to this, they carry them about tucked beneath their armpits, holding the smaller birds in their hands, the larger under their arms, and go for a walk of a great many miles for the sake of health, that is to say, not their own health, but the health of the birds; whereby they prove to any intelligent person, that all bodies are benefited by shakings and movements, when they are moved without weariness, whether the motion proceeds from themselves, or is caused by a swing, or at sea, or on horseback, or by other bodies in whatever way moving, and that thus gaining the mastery over food and drink, they are able to impart beauty and health and strength. But admitting all this, what follows? Shall we make a ridiculous law that the pregnant woman shall walk about and fashion the embryo within as we fashion wax before it hardens, and after birth swathe the infant for two years? Suppose that we compel nurses, under penalty of a legal fine, to be always carrying the children somewhere or other, either to the temples, or into the country, or to their relations' houses, until they are well able to stand, and to take care that their limbs are not distorted by leaning on them when they are too young (compare Arist. Pol.),—they should continue to carry them until the infant has completed its third year; the nurses should be strong, and there should be more than one of them. Shall these be our rules, and shall we impose a penalty for the neglect of them? No, no; the penalty of which we were speaking will fall upon our own heads more than enough.
ATHENIAN: This practice is easier for us to grasp than for you because of certain pastimes that we indulge in excessively here in Athens. Not only do boys, but often older people, keep quails and cocks (see Republic) and train them to fight each other. They don’t believe that just having the birds fight is enough exercise; in addition, they carry them tucked under their arms, holding the smaller ones in their hands and the larger ones under their arms, going for long walks to promote their health—not their own health, but that of the birds. This shows any sensible person that all bodies benefit from movement and shaking when it's done without fatigue, whether the motion comes from the body itself or is caused by swinging, riding at sea, or being moved by other bodies in any way. By mastering food and drink this way, they can help achieve beauty, health, and strength. But given all this, what follows? Should we create a silly law stating that a pregnant woman should walk around and mold the embryo like we mold wax before it hardens, and swaddle the infant for two years after birth? What if we required nurses, under financial penalties, to constantly carry the children to various places, like temples, the countryside, or relatives’ homes, until the children can stand on their own and ensure their limbs are not deformed from being leaned on when they're too young (see Arist. Pol.)? They should keep carrying them until the child turns three; the nurses must be strong, and there should be more than one of them. Should these be our rules, and should we impose fines for not following them? No, no; the penalties we discussed will fall on us more than enough.
CLEINIAS: What penalty?
CLEINIAS: What’s the penalty?
ATHENIAN: Ridicule, and the difficulty of getting the feminine and servant-like dispositions of the nurses to comply.
ATHENIAN: Mockery, and the challenge of getting the feminine and servant-like attitudes of the nurses to cooperate.
CLEINIAS: Then why was there any need to speak of the matter at all?
CLEINIAS: So why did we even need to discuss this?
ATHENIAN: The reason is, that masters and freemen in states, when they hear of it, are very likely to arrive at a true conviction that without due regulation of private life in cities, stability in the laying down of laws is hardly to be expected (compare Republic); and he who makes this reflection may himself adopt the laws just now mentioned, and, adopting them, may order his house and state well and be happy.
ATHENIAN: The reason is that leaders and citizens in society, when they hear about it, are likely to truly understand that without proper regulation of personal life in cities, it's hard to expect stability in establishing laws (see Republic); and anyone who thinks this through may choose to follow the laws just mentioned, and by doing so, may organize their home and community well and find happiness.
CLEINIAS: Likely enough.
CLEINIAS: Probably.
ATHENIAN: And therefore let us proceed with our legislation until we have determined the exercises which are suited to the souls of young children, in the same manner in which we have begun to go through the rules relating to their bodies.
ATHENIAN: So, let's continue with our laws until we figure out the activities that are best for the minds of young children, just like we've started to review the guidelines for their bodies.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Let us assume, then, as a first principle in relation both to the body and soul of very young creatures, that nursing and moving about by day and night is good for them all, and that the younger they are, the more they will need it (compare Arist. Pol.); infants should live, if that were possible, as if they were always rocking at sea. This is the lesson which we may gather from the experience of nurses, and likewise from the use of the remedy of motion in the rites of the Corybantes; for when mothers want their restless children to go to sleep they do not employ rest, but, on the contrary, motion—rocking them in their arms; nor do they give them silence, but they sing to them and lap them in sweet strains; and the Bacchic women are cured of their frenzy in the same manner by the use of the dance and of music.
ATHENIAN: Let's agree, then, as a fundamental idea regarding both the body and mind of very young beings, that nursing and moving around day and night is beneficial for them all, and that the younger they are, the more they need it (see Arist. Pol.); infants should live, if possible, as if they were always being rocked at sea. This is the lesson we can learn from the experiences of caregivers, as well as from the use of movement in the rituals of the Corybantes; when mothers want their restless kids to fall asleep, they don’t rely on stillness, but rather on movement—gently rocking them in their arms; and instead of giving them silence, they sing to them and cradle them in sweet sounds; similarly, the Bacchic women find relief from their frenzy through dance and music.
CLEINIAS: Well, Stranger, and what is the reason of this?
CLEINIAS: So, Stranger, what’s the reason for this?
ATHENIAN: The reason is obvious.
ATHENIAN: The reason is clear.
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: The affection both of the Bacchantes and of the children is an emotion of fear, which springs out of an evil habit of the soul. And when some one applies external agitation to affections of this sort, the motion coming from without gets the better of the terrible and violent internal one, and produces a peace and calm in the soul, and quiets the restless palpitation of the heart, which is a thing much to be desired, sending the children to sleep, and making the Bacchantes, although they remain awake, to dance to the pipe with the help of the Gods to whom they offer acceptable sacrifices, and producing in them a sound mind, which takes the place of their frenzy. And, to express what I mean in a word, there is a good deal to be said in favour of this treatment.
ATHENIAN: The affection of both the Bacchantes and the children is rooted in fear, stemming from a harmful pattern in the soul. When someone introduces external stimulation to these emotions, the outside force can overpower the intense and chaotic internal feelings, bringing peace and calm to the soul. This quiets the restless beating of the heart, which is highly desirable, lulling the children to sleep and allowing the Bacchantes, even while awake, to dance to the music with the assistance of the Gods they honor with pleasing sacrifices, leading them to a sound mind that replaces their madness. In short, there’s a lot to be said for this approach.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But if fear has such a power we ought to infer from these facts, that every soul which from youth upward has been familiar with fears, will be made more liable to fear (compare Republic), and every one will allow that this is the way to form a habit of cowardice and not of courage.
ATHENIAN: But if fear has this much power, we should conclude from these facts that every person who has been exposed to fears from a young age will become more susceptible to fear, and everyone would agree that this is how a habit of cowardice is formed, not courage.
CLEINIAS: No doubt.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And, on the other hand, the habit of overcoming, from our youth upwards, the fears and terrors which beset us, may be said to be an exercise of courage.
ATHENIAN: And, on the other hand, the habit of overcoming the fears and anxieties that challenge us from our youth onward can be seen as a practice of courage.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: And we may say that the use of exercise and motion in the earliest years of life greatly contributes to create a part of virtue in the soul.
ATHENIAN: And we can say that exercising and moving around in the early years of life greatly helps develop a part of virtue in the soul.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Further, a cheerful temper, or the reverse, may be regarded as having much to do with high spirit on the one hand, or with cowardice on the other.
ATHENIAN: Additionally, a cheerful attitude, or the opposite, can be seen as greatly influencing one's confidence on one hand, or cowardice on the other.
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then now we must endeavour to show how and to what extent we may, if we please, without difficulty implant either character in the young.
ATHENIAN: So now we need to try to demonstrate how and to what degree we can, if we want to, easily instill either character in young people.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: There is a common opinion, that luxury makes the disposition of youth discontented and irascible and vehemently excited by trifles; that on the other hand excessive and savage servitude makes men mean and abject, and haters of their kind, and therefore makes them undesirable associates.
ATHENIAN: There's a common belief that luxury makes young people discontented, irritable, and overly stirred up by minor issues; on the other hand, excessive and harsh servitude turns men into mean and lowly individuals who resent their own kind, making them undesirable companions.
CLEINIAS: But how must the state educate those who do not as yet understand the language of the country, and are therefore incapable of appreciating any sort of instruction?
CLEINIAS: But how should the state educate those who do not yet understand the language of the country and are therefore unable to appreciate any kind of instruction?
ATHENIAN: I will tell you how:—Every animal that is born is wont to utter some cry, and this is especially the case with man, and he is also affected with the inclination to weep more than any other animal.
ATHENIAN: I'll explain how: Every animal that is born tends to make some sort of sound, and this is especially true for humans, who also have a greater tendency to cry than any other animal.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: Do not nurses, when they want to know what an infant desires, judge by these signs?—when anything is brought to the infant and he is silent, then he is supposed to be pleased, but, when he weeps and cries out, then he is not pleased. For tears and cries are the inauspicious signs by which children show what they love and hate. Now the time which is thus spent is no less than three years, and is a very considerable portion of life to be passed ill or well.
ATHENIAN: Don’t nurses, when they want to figure out what a baby wants, rely on these signs? When something is given to the baby and he stays quiet, it means he's happy, but when he cries and screams, it means he’s unhappy. Tears and cries are the clear signs that show what children love and hate. This stage lasts for at least three years, which is a significant part of life to be spent either positively or negatively.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Does not the discontented and ungracious nature appear to you to be full of lamentations and sorrows more than a good man ought to be?
ATHENIAN: Doesn't the unhappy and ungrateful nature seem to you to be filled with complaints and sadness more than a good person should be?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Well, but if during these three years every possible care were taken that our nursling should have as little of sorrow and fear, and in general of pain as was possible, might we not expect in early childhood to make his soul more gentle and cheerful? (Compare Arist. Pol.)
ATHENIAN: Well, if over these three years we did everything we could to make sure our child experienced as little sorrow, fear, and pain as possible, wouldn’t we expect that in early childhood we could make his spirit kinder and happier? (Compare Arist. Pol.)
CLEINIAS: To be sure, Stranger—more especially if we could procure him a variety of pleasures.
CLEINIAS: For sure, Stranger—especially if we could offer him a range of pleasures.
ATHENIAN: There I can no longer agree, Cleinias: you amaze me. To bring him up in such a way would be his utter ruin; for the beginning is always the most critical part of education. Let us see whether I am right.
ATHENIAN: I can't agree with you there, Cleinias; you leave me baffled. Raising him that way would completely ruin him because the beginning is always the most crucial part of education. Let's see if I'm right.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
Cleinias: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: The point about which you and I differ is of great importance, and I hope that you, Megillus, will help to decide between us. For I maintain that the true life should neither seek for pleasures, nor, on the other hand, entirely avoid pains, but should embrace the middle state (compare Republic), which I just spoke of as gentle and benign, and is a state which we by some divine presage and inspiration rightly ascribe to God. Now, I say, he among men, too, who would be divine ought to pursue after this mean habit—he should not rush headlong into pleasures, for he will not be free from pains; nor should we allow any one, young or old, male or female, to be thus given any more than ourselves, and least of all the newly-born infant, for in infancy more than at any other time the character is engrained by habit. Nay, more, if I were not afraid of appearing to be ridiculous, I would say that a woman during her year of pregnancy should of all women be most carefully tended, and kept from violent or excessive pleasures and pains, and should at that time cultivate gentleness and benevolence and kindness.
ATHENIAN: The issue we disagree on is really important, and I hope you, Megillus, can help us find a solution. I believe that a truly good life shouldn't chase after pleasures or completely avoid pains, but should find a balance (compare Republic). This balanced state, which I previously described as gentle and kind, is one that we can rightly attribute to God due to some divine insight. I argue that anyone aiming for a higher existence should strive for this balanced way of living— they shouldn't blindly chase after pleasures, as this will lead to unavoidable pains; nor should we let anyone, whether young or old, male or female, fall into this trap just like we shouldn't allow ourselves to. This is especially true for newborns, since habits formed in infancy shape character more than at any other time. Furthermore, if I weren’t worried about sounding absurd, I would say that pregnant women should be the most carefully supported during their pregnancy, kept away from extreme pleasures and pains, and should focus on cultivating gentleness, kindness, and compassion during this period.
CLEINIAS: You need not ask Megillus, Stranger, which of us has most truly spoken; for I myself agree that all men ought to avoid the life of unmingled pain or pleasure, and pursue always a middle course. And having spoken well, may I add that you have been well answered?
CLEINIAS: You don't have to ask Megillus, Stranger, which of us has spoken more truthfully; I believe that everyone should avoid a life that's only about pain or pleasure and should always aim for a balanced approach. And since we've discussed this well, may I add that you've received a solid reply?
ATHENIAN: Very good, Cleinias; and now let us all three consider a further point.
ATHENIAN: Great job, Cleinias; now let’s all three think about another point.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: That all the matters which we are now describing are commonly called by the general name of unwritten customs, and what are termed the laws of our ancestors are all of similar nature. And the reflection which lately arose in our minds, that we can neither call these things laws, nor yet leave them unmentioned, is justified; for they are the bonds of the whole state, and come in between the written laws which are or are hereafter to be laid down; they are just ancestral customs of great antiquity, which, if they are rightly ordered and made habitual, shield and preserve the previously existing written law; but if they depart from right and fall into disorder, then they are like the props of builders which slip away out of their place and cause a universal ruin—one part drags another down, and the fair super-structure falls because the old foundations are undermined. Reflecting upon this, Cleinias, you ought to bind together the new state in every possible way, omitting nothing, whether great or small, of what are called laws or manners or pursuits, for by these means a city is bound together, and all these things are only lasting when they depend upon one another; and, therefore, we must not wonder if we find that many apparently trifling customs or usages come pouring in and lengthening out our laws.
ATHENIAN: All the things we're discussing are generally referred to as unwritten customs, and what we call the laws of our ancestors are similar. The thought that just came to mind—that we can’t truly call these things laws, nor can we ignore them—is valid; they are the ties that hold the entire state together and come between the written laws that currently exist or will be established in the future. They are simply ancient customs that, if properly organized and consistently practiced, protect and uphold the existing written law. But if they stray from what is right and descend into chaos, they become like the supports of builders that slip out of place and lead to total destruction—one part pulls another down, and the beautiful structure collapses because the old foundations are weakened. Considering this, Cleinias, you should unify the new state in every way possible, leaving nothing out—whether it’s significant or minor—of what we call laws, customs, or pursuits. These elements bind a city together and can only endure when they rely on one another; therefore, we shouldn’t be surprised to see many seemingly trivial customs or practices contributing to the expansion of our laws.
CLEINIAS: Very true: we are disposed to agree with you.
CLEINIAS: That's absolutely true: we are inclined to agree with you.
ATHENIAN: Up to the age of three years, whether of boy or girl, if a person strictly carries out our previous regulations and makes them a principal aim, he will do much for the advantage of the young creatures. But at three, four, five, and even six years the childish nature will require sports; now is the time to get rid of self-will in him, punishing him, but not so as to disgrace him. We were saying about slaves, that we ought neither to add insult to punishment so as to anger them, nor yet to leave them unpunished lest they become self-willed; and a like rule is to be observed in the case of the free-born. Children at that age have certain natural modes of amusement which they find out for themselves when they meet. And all the children who are between the ages of three and six ought to meet at the temples of the villages, the several families of a village uniting on one spot. The nurses are to see that the children behave properly and orderly—they themselves and all their companies are to be under the control of twelve matrons, one for each company, who are annually selected to inspect them from the women previously mentioned [i.e. the women who have authority over marriage], whom the guardians of the law appoint. These matrons shall be chosen by the women who have authority over marriage, one out of each tribe; all are to be of the same age; and let each of them, as soon as she is appointed, hold office and go to the temples every day, punishing all offenders, male or female, who are slaves or strangers, by the help of some of the public slaves; but if any citizen disputes the punishment, let her bring him before the wardens of the city; or, if there be no dispute, let her punish him herself. After the age of six years the time has arrived for the separation of the sexes—let boys live with boys, and girls in like manner with girls. Now they must begin to learn—the boys going to teachers of horsemanship and the use of the bow, the javelin, and sling, and the girls too, if they do not object, at any rate until they know how to manage these weapons, and especially how to handle heavy arms; for I may note, that the practice which now prevails is almost universally misunderstood.
ATHENIAN: Up until the age of three, whether it’s a boy or girl, if someone follows our earlier guidelines and makes them a main focus, they’ll do a lot for those young ones. But at ages three, four, five, and even six, children need to play; this is the time to curb their stubbornness through discipline, but without humiliating them. We mentioned before about slaves that we shouldn’t add insult to punishment to provoke them, nor should we let them go unpunished to prevent them from becoming headstrong; and the same principle applies to freeborn children. Kids at that age naturally find ways to entertain themselves when they gather. All children aged three to six should come together at the village temples, with the different families congregating in one location. The caregivers need to ensure that the children behave properly, and they, along with their groups, should be overseen by twelve matrons—one for each group—who are chosen annually from the women previously mentioned [i.e., the women in charge of marriage], as appointed by the guardians of the law. These matrons will be selected by the marriage authorities, one from each tribe; all must be of the same age. As soon as they are appointed, each matron will hold her position and go to the temples daily, punishing any offenders, whether male or female, who are slaves or outsiders, with the assistance of some public slaves; but if any citizen contests the punishment, she should bring him before the city wardens; if there is no dispute, she can punish him herself. Once children reach the age of six, it’s time to separate the genders—boys should be with boys, and girls with girls. They must start learning—the boys will go to instructors for horseback riding and using the bow, javelin, and sling, and girls too, if they are willing, at least until they know how to handle these weapons, especially heavier ones; because I should point out that the current methods are often widely misunderstood.
CLEINIAS: In what respect?
CLEINIAS: How so?
ATHENIAN: In that the right and left hand are supposed to be by nature differently suited for our various uses of them; whereas no difference is found in the use of the feet and the lower limbs; but in the use of the hands we are, as it were, maimed by the folly of nurses and mothers; for although our several limbs are by nature balanced, we create a difference in them by bad habit. In some cases this is of no consequence, as, for example, when we hold the lyre in the left hand, and the plectrum in the right, but it is downright folly to make the same distinction in other cases. The custom of the Scythians proves our error; for they not only hold the bow from them with the left hand and draw the arrow to them with their right, but use either hand for both purposes. And there are many similar examples in charioteering and other things, from which we may learn that those who make the left side weaker than the right act contrary to nature. In the case of the plectrum, which is of horn only, and similar instruments, as I was saying, it is of no consequence, but makes a great difference, and may be of very great importance to the warrior who has to use iron weapons, bows and javelins, and the like; above all, when in heavy armour, he has to fight against heavy armour. And there is a very great difference between one who has learnt and one who has not, and between one who has been trained in gymnastic exercises and one who has not been. For as he who is perfectly skilled in the Pancratium or boxing or wrestling, is not unable to fight from his left side, and does not limp and draggle in confusion when his opponent makes him change his position, so in heavy-armed fighting, and in all other things, if I am not mistaken, the like holds—he who has these double powers of attack and defence ought not in any case to leave them either unused or untrained, if he can help; and if a person had the nature of Geryon or Briareus he ought to be able with his hundred hands to throw a hundred darts. Now, the magistrates, male and female, should see to all these things, the women superintending the nursing and amusements of the children, and the men superintending their education, that all of them, boys and girls alike, may be sound hand and foot, and may not, if they can help, spoil the gifts of nature by bad habits.
ATHENIAN: The right and left hands are naturally suited for different tasks, while there’s no such distinction with the feet and legs. However, we’re hindered in our use of our hands by the mistakes of caregivers, because even though our limbs are balanced by nature, we create an imbalance through bad habits. In some cases, like holding a lyre with the left hand and a plectrum with the right, this doesn’t matter much. But it’s truly foolish to apply this same distinction in other situations. The practices of the Scythians highlight our mistake; they not only hold a bow with their left hand while drawing an arrow with their right but can use either hand for both actions. There are many similar examples in charioteering and other activities, demonstrating that weakening the left side more than the right goes against nature. In the case of the plectrum, which is made of horn, it doesn’t carry much weight, but it can make a significant difference in battle, especially for a warrior using iron weapons, bows, and javelins. This difference becomes even more crucial when fighting in heavy armor against others who are also heavily armed. There’s a huge contrast between someone who has training and someone who hasn’t, and between those who’ve practiced gymnastic exercises and those who haven’t. Just as a skilled fighter in disciplines like Pancratium or boxing can effectively fight from their left side without faltering when their opponent forces a change in position, the same principle applies to heavily armed combat and other areas. Those capable of attacking and defending from both sides shouldn’t leave those skills underused or unpracticed whenever possible. If someone had the abilities of Geryon or Briareus, they should be able to throw a hundred darts with their hundred hands. The magistrates, both men and women, should oversee all these aspects—women managing the care and play of children while men handle their education—so that all children, boys and girls, develop sound abilities and avoid distorting nature’s gifts with bad habits.
Education has two branches—one of gymnastic, which is concerned with the body, and the other of music, which is designed for the improvement of the soul. And gymnastic has also two branches—dancing and wrestling; and one sort of dancing imitates musical recitation, and aims at preserving dignity and freedom, the other aims at producing health, agility, and beauty in the limbs and parts of the body, giving the proper flexion and extension to each of them, a harmonious motion being diffused everywhere, and forming a suitable accompaniment to the dance. As regards wrestling, the tricks which Antaeus and Cercyon devised in their systems out of a vain spirit of competition, or the tricks of boxing which Epeius or Amycus invented, are useless and unsuitable for war, and do not deserve to have much said about them; but the art of wrestling erect and keeping free the neck and hands and sides, working with energy and constancy, with a composed strength, for the sake of health—these are always useful, and are not to be neglected, but to be enjoined alike on masters and scholars, when we reach that part of legislation; and we will desire the one to give their instructions freely, and the others to receive them thankfully. Nor, again, must we omit suitable imitations of war in our choruses; here in Crete you have the armed dances of the Curetes, and the Lacedaemonians have those of the Dioscuri. And our virgin lady, delighting in the amusement of the dance, thought it not fit to amuse herself with empty hands; she must be clothed in a complete suit of armour, and in this attire go through the dance; and youths and maidens should in every respect imitate her, esteeming highly the favour of the Goddess, both with a view to the necessities of war, and to festive occasions: it will be right also for the boys, until such time as they go out to war, to make processions and supplications to all the Gods in goodly array, armed and on horseback, in dances and marches, fast or slow, offering up prayers to the Gods and to the sons of Gods; and also engaging in contests and preludes of contests, if at all, with these objects. For these sorts of exercises, and no others, are useful both in peace and war, and are beneficial alike to states and to private houses. But other labours and sports and exercises of the body are unworthy of freemen, O Megillus and Cleinias.
Education has two main areas—physical training, which focuses on the body, and music, which aims to enhance the soul. Physical training also has two aspects—dancing and wrestling. One type of dancing mimics musical performance and seeks to maintain dignity and freedom, while the other aims to promote health, agility, and beauty in the body, ensuring proper movement and coordination. When it comes to wrestling, the flashy moves created by Antaeus and Cercyon just for bragging rights, or the boxing techniques developed by Epeius or Amycus, are irrelevant and impractical for actual combat and don’t deserve much attention. However, the art of wrestling properly—keeping the neck, hands, and sides strong and free, working with energy, perseverance, and balanced strength for health—is always valuable and not to be overlooked. This should be encouraged for both trainers and students when we address this in regulations, with instructors generously sharing their knowledge and students gratefully receiving it. We should also include appropriate simulations of warfare in our dances; here in Crete, for instance, you have the armed dances of the Curetes, and the Spartans have those of the Dioscuri. Our virgin lady, enjoying the dance, found it unfit to participate empty-handed; she needed to be fully armored while dancing, and both boys and girls should follow her example, valuing the Goddess's favor in both war and celebration. Boys, until they go off to battle, should also participate in processions and rituals honoring all the Gods, well-equipped and on horseback, in both lively and slow dances, offering prayers to the Gods and demigods and, if appropriate, engaging in contests. These types of activities, and no others, are beneficial in both times of peace and war, helping both communities and individuals. However, other forms of labor, sports, and physical activities are unworthy of free individuals, O Megillus and Cleinias.
I have now completely described the kind of gymnastic which I said at first ought to be described; if you know of any better, will you communicate your thoughts?
I have now fully explained the type of gymnastics that I initially said should be described; if you know of any better, please share your thoughts.
CLEINIAS: It is not easy, Stranger, to put aside these principles of gymnastic and wrestling and to enunciate better ones.
CLEINIAS: It's not easy, Stranger, to set aside these principles of gymnastics and wrestling and to express better ones.
ATHENIAN: Now we must say what has yet to be said about the gifts of the Muses and of Apollo: before, we fancied that we had said all, and that gymnastic alone remained; but now we see clearly what points have been omitted, and should be first proclaimed; of these, then, let us proceed to speak.
ATHENIAN: Now we need to talk about the gifts of the Muses and Apollo that we haven't covered yet. Before, we thought we had said everything, and that only gymnastics was left; but now we clearly see what we've missed and what should be shared first. So, let's go ahead and discuss these topics.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Let me tell you once more—although you have heard me say the same before—that caution must be always exercised, both by the speaker and by the hearer, about anything that is very singular and unusual. For my tale is one which many a man would be afraid to tell, and yet I have a confidence which makes me go on.
ATHENIAN: Let me remind you again—though you've heard me say this before—that we should always be cautious, both the speaker and the listener, when it comes to anything that’s really strange or out of the ordinary. My story is one that many would hesitate to share, yet I feel a confidence that compels me to continue.
CLEINIAS: What have you to say, Stranger?
CLEINIAS: What do you have to say, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: I say that in states generally no one has observed that the plays of childhood have a great deal to do with the permanence or want of permanence in legislation. For when plays are ordered with a view to children having the same plays, and amusing themselves after the same manner, and finding delight in the same playthings, the more solemn institutions of the state are allowed to remain undisturbed. Whereas if sports are disturbed, and innovations are made in them, and they constantly change, and the young never speak of their having the same likings, or the same established notions of good and bad taste, either in the bearing of their bodies or in their dress, but he who devises something new and out of the way in figures and colours and the like is held in special honour, we may truly say that no greater evil can happen in a state; for he who changes the sports is secretly changing the manners of the young, and making the old to be dishonoured among them and the new to be honoured. And I affirm that there is nothing which is a greater injury to all states than saying or thinking thus. Will you hear me tell how great I deem the evil to be?
ATHENIAN: I believe that in societies, no one has noticed how much childhood games influence the stability or instability of laws. When games are organized so that children can enjoy the same activities, have fun in similar ways, and find joy in the same toys, the more serious systems of governance are left untouched. However, if these games are disrupted, new trends are introduced, and they constantly change, with young people never mentioning their shared interests or established ideas of good and bad taste—either in how they carry themselves or in their clothing—then those who come up with new and unusual styles in designs and colors are particularly praised. We can truly say that a greater harm cannot occur in a society, as those who change the games are subtly altering the behavior of the young, making the old traditions seem disrespected and the new trends seem admirable. I assert that there is nothing more damaging to all societies than thinking or saying this way. Would you like to hear how serious I think the harm is?
CLEINIAS: You mean the evil of blaming antiquity in states?
CLEINIAS: Are you talking about the problem of blaming the past in societies?
ATHENIAN: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: If you are speaking of that, you will find in us hearers who are disposed to receive what you say not unfavourably but most favourably.
CLEINIAS: If you're talking about that, you'll find us listeners who are inclined to take in what you say not negatively but very positively.
ATHENIAN: I should expect so.
ATHENIAN: I would think so.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, let us give all the greater heed to one another's words. The argument affirms that any change whatever except from evil is the most dangerous of all things; this is true in the case of the seasons and of the winds, in the management of our bodies and the habits of our minds—true of all things except, as I said before, of the bad. He who looks at the constitution of individuals accustomed to eat any sort of meat, or drink any drink, or to do any work which they can get, may see that they are at first disordered by them, but afterwards, as time goes on, their bodies grow adapted to them, and they learn to know and like variety, and have good health and enjoyment of life; and if ever afterwards they are confined again to a superior diet, at first they are troubled with disorders, and with difficulty become habituated to their new food. A similar principle we may imagine to hold good about the minds of men and the natures of their souls. For when they have been brought up in certain laws, which by some Divine Providence have remained unchanged during long ages, so that no one has any memory or tradition of their ever having been otherwise than they are, then every one is afraid and ashamed to change that which is established. The legislator must somehow find a way of implanting this reverence for antiquity, and I would propose the following way: People are apt to fancy, as I was saying before, that when the plays of children are altered they are merely plays, not seeing that the most serious and detrimental consequences arise out of the change; and they readily comply with the child's wishes instead of deterring him, not considering that these children who make innovations in their games, when they grow up to be men, will be different from the last generation of children, and, being different, will desire a different sort of life, and under the influence of this desire will want other institutions and laws; and no one of them reflects that there will follow what I just now called the greatest of evils to states. Changes in bodily fashions are no such serious evils, but frequent changes in the praise and censure of manners are the greatest of evils, and require the utmost prevision.
ATHENIAN: Well, let’s pay closer attention to each other’s words. The argument suggests that any change, except for moving away from evil, is extremely dangerous; this applies to the seasons and winds, how we take care of our bodies, and the habits of our minds—true for everything except, as I mentioned earlier, for the bad. If you observe people who are used to eating any kind of meat, drinking any beverage, or doing any work they can find, you’ll notice that they may initially struggle, but over time, their bodies adjust, and they come to appreciate variety, leading to good health and enjoyment in life. Yet, if they are later limited to a healthier diet, they initially have issues and find it hard to get used to their new food. A similar idea likely applies to people’s minds and their souls. When individuals are raised under certain laws, which by some divine chance have stayed the same for ages, so that no one remembers them being any different, everyone becomes afraid and embarrassed to change what is established. The lawmaker must find a way to instill this respect for tradition, and I suggest the following approach: People often think, as I said before, that when children's games are changed, they are just games, not realizing that serious and harmful consequences can come from such changes. They easily agree with the child’s wishes instead of guiding them, failing to consider that those children who innovate their games will grow up wanting a different life than the previous generation did. And by wanting something different, they will seek new institutions and laws; no one reflects that this can lead to what I referred to as the greatest evil for societies. Changes in fashion may not be serious problems, but frequent shifts in how we praise or criticize behavior are the biggest issues and require the highest level of foresight.
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And now do we still hold to our former assertion, that rhythms and music in general are imitations of good and evil characters in men? What say you?
ATHENIAN: So, do we still stand by our earlier claim that rhythms and music are basically reflections of good and bad traits in people? What do you think?
CLEINIAS: That is the only doctrine which we can admit.
CLEINIAS: That’s the only belief we can accept.
ATHENIAN: Must we not, then, try in every possible way to prevent our youth from even desiring to imitate new modes either in dance or song? nor must any one be allowed to offer them varieties of pleasures.
ATHENIAN: Should we not do everything we can to stop our young people from wanting to copy new styles in dance or music? And we shouldn't let anyone offer them different kinds of entertainment.
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Can any of us imagine a better mode of effecting this object than that of the Egyptians?
ATHENIAN: Can any of us think of a better way to achieve this goal than the Egyptians did?
CLEINIAS: What is their method?
CLEINIAS: What's their method?
ATHENIAN: To consecrate every sort of dance or melody. First we should ordain festivals—calculating for the year what they ought to be, and at what time, and in honour of what Gods, sons of Gods, and heroes they ought to be celebrated; and, in the next place, what hymns ought to be sung at the several sacrifices, and with what dances the particular festival is to be honoured. This has to be arranged at first by certain persons, and, when arranged, the whole assembly of the citizens are to offer sacrifices and libations to the Fates and all the other Gods, and to consecrate the several odes to Gods and heroes: and if any one offers any other hymns or dances to any one of the Gods, the priests and priestesses, acting in concert with the guardians of the law, shall, with the sanction of religion and the law, exclude him, and he who is excluded, if he do not submit, shall be liable all his life long to have a suit of impiety brought against him by any one who likes.
ATHENIAN: We should set aside time for all kinds of dance and music. First, we need to plan festivals—deciding when they should happen, which gods, divine beings, and heroes we celebrate. Next, we have to determine what songs should be sung at each sacrifice, and what dances should honor each specific festival. This should be organized by certain individuals, and once it's set, the entire assembly of citizens should perform sacrifices and offerings to the Fates and all the other gods, dedicating the various songs to gods and heroes. If someone offers different hymns or dances to any of the gods, the priests and priestesses, with support from the law guardians, must exclude that person, and if the person resists, they may face a lifelong charge of impiety from anyone who wishes to do so.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: In the consideration of this subject, let us remember what is due to ourselves.
ATHENIAN: As we think about this topic, let’s keep in mind what we owe to ourselves.
CLEINIAS: To what are you referring?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: I mean that any young man, and much more any old one, when he sees or hears anything strange or unaccustomed, does not at once run to embrace the paradox, but he stands considering, like a person who is at a place where three paths meet, and does not very well know his way—he may be alone or he may be walking with others, and he will say to himself and them, 'Which is the way?' and will not move forward until he is satisfied that he is going right. And this is what we must do in the present instance: A strange discussion on the subject of law has arisen, which requires the utmost consideration, and we should not at our age be too ready to speak about such great matters, or be confident that we can say anything certain all in a moment.
ATHENIAN: What I mean is that any young man, and even more so any older man, when he sees or hears something strange or unfamiliar, doesn't just jump to accept it right away. Instead, he stops to think, like someone who finds themselves at a crossroads and isn’t quite sure which way to go. He might be alone or with others and will ask himself and them, 'Which way should I take?' He won’t proceed until he feels confident he’s headed in the right direction. This is what we need to do in this situation: A strange discussion about the law has come up that needs careful thought, and at our age, we shouldn’t be too quick to weigh in on such serious topics or assume that we can say anything definitive on the spot.
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Then we will allow time for reflection, and decide when we have given the subject sufficient consideration. But that we may not be hindered from completing the natural arrangement of our laws, let us proceed to the conclusion of them in due order; for very possibly, if God will, the exposition of them, when completed, may throw light on our present perplexity.
ATHENIAN: Let's take some time to think this over and decide once we’ve considered the topic thoroughly. However, so we aren’t delayed in finalizing our laws’ natural order, let’s continue with their conclusion in the right sequence. If it's meant to be, finishing this may help clarify our current confusion.
CLEINIAS: Excellent, Stranger; let us do as you propose.
CLEINIAS: Great idea, Stranger; let's go with your suggestion.
ATHENIAN: Let us then affirm the paradox that strains of music are our laws (nomoi), and this latter being the name which the ancients gave to lyric songs, they probably would not have very much objected to our proposed application of the word. Some one, either asleep or awake, must have had a dreamy suspicion of their nature. And let our decree be as follows: No one in singing or dancing shall offend against public and consecrated models, and the general fashion among the youth, any more than he would offend against any other law. And he who observes this law shall be blameless; but he who is disobedient, as I was saying, shall be punished by the guardians of the laws, and by the priests and priestesses. Suppose that we imagine this to be our law.
ATHENIAN: Let’s agree on this unusual idea that music is our laws (nomoi), and this term was what the ancients used for lyric songs, so they probably wouldn’t have had much issue with our use of the word. Someone, whether asleep or awake, must have had a hazy awareness of their nature. And here’s our decree: No one in singing or dancing shall go against public and sacred standards, just like they wouldn’t break any other law. Those who follow this law will be without blame; however, those who disobey, as I mentioned, will face punishment from the law guardians and the priests and priestesses. Let’s assume this is our law.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Great.
ATHENIAN: Can any one who makes such laws escape ridicule? Let us see. I think that our only safety will be in first framing certain models for composers. One of these models shall be as follows: If when a sacrifice is going on, and the victims are being burnt according to law—if, I say, any one who may be a son or brother, standing by another at the altar and over the victims, horribly blasphemes, will not his words inspire despondency and evil omens and forebodings in the mind of his father and of his other kinsmen?
ATHENIAN: Can anyone who creates such laws avoid being laughed at? Let's take a look. I believe our best bet is to first establish some guidelines for those who compose laws. One of these guidelines should be: If during a sacrifice, when the victims are being burned as required by law—if someone, say a son or brother, standing next to another at the altar and over the victims, starts to blaspheme horribly, won’t his words bring despair and bad omens and feelings of dread to his father and other relatives?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And this is just what takes place in almost all our cities. A magistrate offers a public sacrifice, and there come in not one but many choruses, who take up a position a little way from the altar, and from time to time pour forth all sorts of horrible blasphemies on the sacred rites, exciting the souls of the audience with words and rhythms and melodies most sorrowful to hear; and he who at the moment when the city is offering sacrifice makes the citizens weep most, carries away the palm of victory. Now, ought we not to forbid such strains as these? And if ever our citizens must hear such lamentations, then on some unblest and inauspicious day let there be choruses of foreign and hired minstrels, like those hirelings who accompany the departed at funerals with barbarous Carian chants. That is the sort of thing which will be appropriate if we have such strains at all; and let the apparel of the singers be, not circlets and ornaments of gold, but the reverse. Enough of all this. I will simply ask once more whether we shall lay down as one of our principles of song—
ATHENIAN: This is exactly what happens in almost all our cities. A magistrate conducts a public sacrifice, and numerous choruses gather a little distance from the altar, periodically unleashing all kinds of terrible blasphemies against the sacred rites, stirring the audience's emotions with words, rhythms, and melodies that are deeply sorrowful to hear. The person who makes the citizens cry the most when the city is offering a sacrifice gets the victory. Shouldn't we ban these kinds of performances? And if our citizens have to hear such lamentations, then let it be on a day that's unlucky and inappropriate, with choruses of foreign and hired musicians, like those performers who accompany the deceased at funerals with harsh Carian songs. That's what would be fitting if we must allow such performances at all; and the singers’ clothing should be plain, not adorned with gold jewelry and decorations. Enough of all this. I will simply ask once more whether we should establish as one of our principles of song—
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: That we should avoid every word of evil omen; let that kind of song which is of good omen be heard everywhere and always in our state. I need hardly ask again, but shall assume that you agree with me.
ATHENIAN: We should steer clear of any negative words; let good songs be heard all around our city, all the time. I won’t bother asking again, so I’ll just assume you agree with me.
CLEINIAS: By all means; that law is approved by the suffrages of us all.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely; that law has our unanimous support.
ATHENIAN: But what shall be our next musical law or type? Ought not prayers to be offered up to the Gods when we sacrifice?
ATHENIAN: But what should be our next musical rule or style? Shouldn't we offer prayers to the Gods when we make sacrifices?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And our third law, if I am not mistaken, will be to the effect that our poets, understanding prayers to be requests which we make to the Gods, will take especial heed that they do not by mistake ask for evil instead of good. To make such a prayer would surely be too ridiculous.
ATHENIAN: And our third law, if I'm not mistaken, will state that our poets, recognizing that prayers are requests we make to the Gods, must be especially careful not to accidentally ask for something bad instead of something good. Making such a prayer would definitely be absurd.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely true.
ATHENIAN: Were we not a little while ago quite convinced that no silver or golden Plutus should dwell in our state?
ATHENIAN: Weren't we just a little while ago completely convinced that no silver or golden Plutus should live in our city?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And what has it been the object of our argument to show? Did we not imply that the poets are not always quite capable of knowing what is good or evil? And if one of them utters a mistaken prayer in song or words, he will make our citizens pray for the opposite of what is good in matters of the highest import; than which, as I was saying, there can be few greater mistakes. Shall we then propose as one of our laws and models relating to the Muses—
ATHENIAN: So what has our discussion aimed to prove? Didn't we suggest that poets don't always fully understand what is good or evil? If one of them expresses a misguided prayer in their song or words, they might lead our citizens to pray for the opposite of what is truly good in crucial matters; and as I mentioned, there are few errors greater than that. Should we then propose one of our laws and guidelines concerning the Muses—
CLEINIAS: What? will you explain the law more precisely?
CLEINIAS: What? Can you explain the law more clearly?
ATHENIAN: Shall we make a law that the poet shall compose nothing contrary to the ideas of the lawful, or just, or beautiful, or good, which are allowed in the state? nor shall he be permitted to communicate his compositions to any private individuals, until he shall have shown them to the appointed judges and the guardians of the law, and they are satisfied with them. As to the persons whom we appoint to be our legislators about music and as to the director of education, these have been already indicated. Once more then, as I have asked more than once, shall this be our third law, and type, and model—What do you say?
ATHENIAN: Should we create a law stating that the poet can't write anything that goes against what's lawful, just, beautiful, or good in our society? Also, he shouldn't be allowed to share his work with anyone privately until he's shown it to the judges and the guardians of the law, and they've approved it. We've already decided who will be our legislators for music and who will direct education. So again, as I've asked before, should this be our third law, style, and model—What do you think?
CLEINIAS: Let it be so, by all means.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, let's go with that.
ATHENIAN: Then it will be proper to have hymns and praises of the Gods, intermingled with prayers; and after the Gods prayers and praises should be offered in like manner to demigods and heroes, suitable to their several characters.
ATHENIAN: Then it makes sense to have songs and praises for the Gods, mixed with prayers; and after the Gods, prayers and praises should also be offered in a similar way to demigods and heroes, fitting their individual natures.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: In the next place there will be no objection to a law, that citizens who are departed and have done good and energetic deeds, either with their souls or with their bodies, and have been obedient to the laws, should receive eulogies; this will be very fitting.
ATHENIAN: Next, there shouldn’t be any issue with a law stating that citizens who have passed away and have performed good and commendable actions, whether with their minds or their bodies, and have obeyed the laws, should be honored with eulogies; this would be very appropriate.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: Totally true.
ATHENIAN: But to honour with hymns and panegyrics those who are still alive is not safe; a man should run his course, and make a fair ending, and then we will praise him; and let praise be given equally to women as well as men who have been distinguished in virtue. The order of songs and dances shall be as follows: There are many ancient musical compositions and dances which are excellent, and from these the newly-founded city may freely select what is proper and suitable; and they shall choose judges of not less than fifty years of age, who shall make the selection, and any of the old poems which they deem sufficient they shall include; any that are deficient or altogether unsuitable, they shall either utterly throw aside, or examine and amend, taking into their counsel poets and musicians, and making use of their poetical genius; but explaining to them the wishes of the legislator in order that they may regulate dancing, music, and all choral strains, according to the mind of the judges; and not allowing them to indulge, except in some few matters, their individual pleasures and fancies. Now the irregular strain of music is always made ten thousand times better by attaining to law and order, and rejecting the honeyed Muse—not however that we mean wholly to exclude pleasure, which is the characteristic of all music. And if a man be brought up from childhood to the age of discretion and maturity in the use of the orderly and severe music, when he hears the opposite he detests it, and calls it illiberal; but if trained in the sweet and vulgar music, he deems the severer kind cold and displeasing. So that, as I was saying before, while he who hears them gains no more pleasure from the one than from the other, the one has the advantage of making those who are trained in it better men, whereas the other makes them worse.
ATHENIAN: But it's risky to honor the living with songs and praise; a person should complete their journey and have a fair ending before we celebrate them. Praise should be given equally to women and men distinguished by their virtue. The order of songs and dances will be as follows: There are many ancient musical pieces and dances that are excellent, and from these, the newly-founded city can freely choose what is appropriate and fitting. They will select judges who are at least fifty years old to make the selection, and any old poems they find sufficient will be included; any that are lacking or unsuitable will be discarded or revised, with input from poets and musicians, utilizing their creative talents, while also explaining to them the wishes of the legislator so that they can organize dancing, music, and all choral performances according to the judges' intentions, allowing only limited individual preferences. The imperfect strain of music is always vastly improved by adhering to law and order, and dismissing the overly sweet Muse—but this doesn’t mean we want to completely eliminate enjoyment, which is an essential aspect of all music. If someone is raised from childhood to maturity with structured and serious music, they will reject the opposite type, calling it unrefined; but if they are trained in sweet and popular music, they will find the serious kind dull and unappealing. So, as I mentioned before, while a listener gains no more pleasure from one than the other, the former has the advantage of making those trained in it better individuals, while the latter tends to make them worse.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Again, we must distinguish and determine on some general principle what songs are suitable to women, and what to men, and must assign to them their proper melodies and rhythms. It is shocking for a whole harmony to be inharmonical, or for a rhythm to be unrhythmical, and this will happen when the melody is inappropriate to them. And therefore the legislator must assign to these also their forms. Now both sexes have melodies and rhythms which of necessity belong to them; and those of women are clearly enough indicated by their natural difference. The grand, and that which tends to courage, may be fairly called manly; but that which inclines to moderation and temperance, may be declared both in law and in ordinary speech to be the more womanly quality. This, then, will be the general order of them.
ATHENIAN: Again, we need to distinguish and figure out some general principle about which songs are appropriate for women and which are for men, and we should assign them the right melodies and rhythms. It's unacceptable for a whole harmony to be out of tune, or for a rhythm to be offbeat, and this can happen when the melody doesn’t suit them. Therefore, the lawmaker must designate the appropriate forms for each. Both genders have melodies and rhythms that naturally belong to them; those for women are clearly indicated by their natural differences. The grand and courageous sounds can be considered manly, while those that lean towards moderation and self-control can be referred to in both law and everyday language as more feminine. This will be the general arrangement of them.
Let us now speak of the manner of teaching and imparting them, and the persons to whom, and the time when, they are severally to be imparted. As the shipwright first lays down the lines of the keel, and thus, as it were, draws the ship in outline, so do I seek to distinguish the patterns of life, and lay down their keels according to the nature of different men's souls; seeking truly to consider by what means, and in what ways, we may go through the voyage of life best. Now human affairs are hardly worth considering in earnest, and yet we must be in earnest about them—a sad necessity constrains us. And having got thus far, there will be a fitness in our completing the matter, if we can only find some suitable method of doing so. But what do I mean? Some one may ask this very question, and quite rightly, too.
Let’s now talk about how to teach and share these ideas, who we should share them with, and when the right time is to do so. Just like a shipbuilder first sketches the lines of the keel to create the ship's outline, I want to identify the patterns of life and establish their foundations based on the different natures of people's souls; I aim to truly think about how we can navigate the journey of life most effectively. Human affairs are often not worth serious contemplation, yet we must take them seriously—it's a frustrating necessity we have to face. Now that we've reached this point, it makes sense to finish this discussion, as long as we can find the right way to do it. But what do I mean by this? Someone might ask exactly that, and they would be right to do so.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: I say that about serious matters a man should be serious, and about a matter which is not serious he should not be serious; and that God is the natural and worthy object of our most serious and blessed endeavours, for man, as I said before, is made to be the plaything of God, and this, truly considered, is the best of him; wherefore also every man and woman should walk seriously, and pass life in the noblest of pastimes, and be of another mind from what they are at present.
ATHENIAN: I believe that when it comes to serious issues, a person should take them seriously, and when it comes to things that aren't serious, they shouldn't be so serious. God is the natural and deserving focus of our most serious and blessed efforts because, as I mentioned earlier, humans are meant to be God's playthings, and when you really think about it, that's the best part of who we are. Therefore, every man and woman should approach life earnestly, engage in the highest forms of leisure, and adopt a mindset that's different from what they have now.
CLEINIAS: In what respect?
CLEINIAS: In what way?
ATHENIAN: At present they think that their serious pursuits should be for the sake of their sports, for they deem war a serious pursuit, which must be managed well for the sake of peace; but the truth is, that there neither is, nor has been, nor ever will be, either amusement or instruction in any degree worth speaking of in war, which is nevertheless deemed by us to be the most serious of our pursuits. And therefore, as we say, every one of us should live the life of peace as long and as well as he can. And what is the right way of living? Are we to live in sports always? If so, in what kind of sports? We ought to live sacrificing, and singing, and dancing, and then a man will be able to propitiate the Gods, and to defend himself against his enemies and conquer them in battle. The type of song or dance by which he will propitiate them has been described, and the paths along which he is to proceed have been cut for him. He will go forward in the spirit of the poet:
ATHENIAN: Right now, they believe that their serious activities should serve their sports because they see war as a serious endeavor that must be handled properly for the sake of peace. However, the reality is that there has never been, is not, nor will there ever be, any entertainment or education worth mentioning in war, yet we consider it to be our most serious pursuit. Therefore, as we say, everyone should live a peaceful life for as long and as well as possible. But what does it mean to live rightly? Should we always focus on sports? If so, what kind of sports should they be? We should live by making sacrifices, singing, and dancing so that we can honor the Gods, protect ourselves from our enemies, and defeat them in battle. The specific songs or dances that will honor them have been outlined, and the paths he should follow have been laid out for him. He will move forward in the spirit of the poet:
'Telemachus, some things thou wilt thyself find in thy heart, but other things God will suggest; for I deem that thou wast not born or brought up without the will of the Gods.'
'Telemachus, there are things you will discover in your own heart, but there are also things that God will inspire; for I believe that you were not born or raised without the will of the Gods.'
And this ought to be the view of our alumni; they ought to think that what has been said is enough for them, and that any other things their Genius and God will suggest to them—he will tell them to whom, and when, and to what Gods severally they are to sacrifice and perform dances, and how they may propitiate the deities, and live according to the appointment of nature; being for the most part puppets, but having some little share of reality.
And this should be the perspective of our alumni; they should believe that what has been said is sufficient for them, and that any other insights their creativity and fate will reveal to them—will guide them on whom to honor, when to do so, to which deities they should make offerings and perform rituals, and how they can win the favor of the gods, while living in harmony with nature; mostly acting like puppets, but having a small part of genuine existence.
MEGILLUS: You have a low opinion of mankind, Stranger.
MEGILLUS: You have a low view of people, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Nay, Megillus, be not amazed, but forgive me: I was comparing them with the Gods; and under that feeling I spoke. Let us grant, if you wish, that the human race is not to be despised, but is worthy of some consideration.
ATHENIAN: No, Megillus, don’t be surprised, just forgive me: I was comparing them to the Gods; and that’s how I came to speak. Let’s agree, if you like, that humanity is not to be looked down upon, but is deserving of some respect.
Next follow the buildings for gymnasia and schools open to all; these are to be in three places in the midst of the city; and outside the city and in the surrounding country, also in three places, there shall be schools for horse exercise, and large grounds arranged with a view to archery and the throwing of missiles, at which young men may learn and practise. Of these mention has already been made; and if the mention be not sufficiently explicit, let us speak further of them and embody them in laws. In these several schools let there be dwellings for teachers, who shall be brought from foreign parts by pay, and let them teach those who attend the schools the art of war and the art of music, and the children shall come not only if their parents please, but if they do not please; there shall be compulsory education, as the saying is, of all and sundry, as far as this is possible; and the pupils shall be regarded as belonging to the state rather than to their parents. My law would apply to females as well as males; they shall both go through the same exercises. I assert without fear of contradiction that gymnastic and horsemanship are as suitable to women as to men. Of the truth of this I am persuaded from ancient tradition, and at the present day there are said to be countless myriads of women in the neighbourhood of the Black Sea, called Sauromatides, who not only ride on horseback like men, but have enjoined upon them the use of bows and other weapons equally with the men. And I further affirm, that if these things are possible, nothing can be more absurd than the practice which prevails in our own country, of men and women not following the same pursuits with all their strength and with one mind, for thus the state, instead of being a whole, is reduced to a half, but has the same imposts to pay and the same toils to undergo; and what can be a greater mistake for any legislator to make than this?
Next come the buildings for gyms and schools open to everyone; these will be in three locations in the middle of the city, and outside the city and in the surrounding countryside, there will also be three schools for horseback riding, along with large areas set up for archery and throwing sports, where young men can learn and practice. We've mentioned these before; and if our earlier mention wasn't clear enough, let’s talk about them more and include them in our laws. In these various schools, there should be housing for teachers, who will be brought in from other places for pay, to teach those who attend these schools the arts of warfare and music. Children should attend whether their parents approve or not; there will be mandatory education for all as much as possible, and the students will be seen as belonging to the state rather than their parents. My law would apply to both females and males; they should both participate in the same activities. I confidently state that physical training and horseback riding are just as fitting for women as they are for men. I believe this based on ancient tradition, and today, there are said to be countless women near the Black Sea, called Sauromatides, who not only ride like men but are also required to use bows and other weapons just like men do. Furthermore, I maintain that if these possibilities exist, there’s nothing more ridiculous than the custom in our own country where men and women aren't pursuing the same activities with full effort and unity, because this way the state, rather than being whole, is reduced to a half, while still facing the same taxes and responsibilities; and what could be a greater error for any lawmaker to make than this?
CLEINIAS: Very true; yet much of what has been asserted by us, Stranger, is contrary to the custom of states; still, in saying that the discourse should be allowed to proceed, and that when the discussion is completed, we should choose what seems best, you spoke very properly, and I now feel compunction for what I have said. Tell me, then, what you would next wish to say.
CLEINIAS: That's definitely true; however, a lot of what we've discussed, Stranger, goes against the usual practices of states. Still, when you said that we should let the conversation continue and, once it's finished, choose what seems best, you were absolutely right, and now I feel guilty about what I said. So, tell me, what do you want to say next?
ATHENIAN: I should wish to say, Cleinias, as I said before, that if the possibility of these things were not sufficiently proven in fact, then there might be an objection to the argument, but the fact being as I have said, he who rejects the law must find some other ground of objection; and, failing this, our exhortation will still hold good, nor will any one deny that women ought to share as far as possible in education and in other ways with men. For consider; if women do not share in their whole life with men, then they must have some other order of life.
ATHENIAN: I want to repeat, Cleinias, that if the possibility of these ideas weren't clearly proven, there could be a reason to question the argument. But since it is what I've stated, anyone who rejects the law needs to find another reason to argue against it. If they can't do that, our encouragement still stands, and no one can deny that women should participate as much as possible in education and other areas alongside men. Think about it; if women don't share their entire lives with men, then they must have a completely different way of living.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And what arrangement of life to be found anywhere is preferable to this community which we are now assigning to them? Shall we prefer that which is adopted by the Thracians and many other races who use their women to till the ground and to be shepherds of their herds and flocks, and to minister to them like slaves? Or shall we do as we and people in our part of the world do—getting together, as the phrase is, all our goods and chattels into one dwelling, we entrust them to our women, who are the stewards of them, and who also preside over the shuttles and the whole art of spinning? Or shall we take a middle course, as in Lacedaemon, Megillus—letting the girls share in gymnastic and music, while the grown-up women, no longer employed in spinning wool, are hard at work weaving the web of life, which will be no cheap or mean employment, and in the duty of serving and taking care of the household and bringing up the children, in which they will observe a sort of mean, not participating in the toils of war; and if there were any necessity that they should fight for their city and families, unlike the Amazons, they would be unable to take part in archery or any other skilled use of missiles, nor could they, after the example of the Goddess, carry shield or spear, or stand up nobly for their country when it was being destroyed, and strike terror into their enemies, if only because they were seen in regular order? Living as they do, they would never dare at all to imitate the Sauromatides, who, when compared with ordinary women, would appear to be like men. Let him who will, praise your legislators, but I must say what I think. The legislator ought to be whole and perfect, and not half a man only; he ought not to let the female sex live softly and waste money and have no order of life, while he takes the utmost care of the male sex, and leaves half of life only blest with happiness, when he might have made the whole state happy.
ATHENIAN: What lifestyle anywhere is better than the community we’re creating for them? Should we choose what the Thracians and many other cultures do, where women work the fields and tend to livestock like servants? Or should we follow our own model, where we gather all our belongings into one home and trust our women to manage everything, while they also handle weaving and spinning? Or perhaps we should take a middle ground like in Lacedaemon, Megillus, allowing girls to participate in sports and music, while adult women, no longer focused solely on spinning, engage in the essential tasks of running the household and raising children, maintaining a balance where they don’t partake in the burdens of war. If they were ever needed to defend their city and families, unlike the Amazons, they wouldn’t be able to excel in archery or any skilled use of weapons, nor could they, like the Goddess, wield a shield or spear, or stand strong for their country when under threat, and intimidate their foes just by being organized. In their current state, they would never dare to emulate the Sauromatides, who, when compared to regular women, appear more like men. Let anyone who wants praise your lawmakers, but I have to voice my opinion. The legislator should be whole and complete, not just half a person; they shouldn’t allow women to live comfortably, waste resources, and lack structure while carefully managing the lives of men and leaving half of life only blessed with happiness, when they could create a state where everyone thrives.
MEGILLUS: What shall we do, Cleinias? Shall we allow a stranger to run down Sparta in this fashion?
MEGILLUS: What should we do, Cleinias? Should we let a stranger talk bad about Sparta like this?
CLEINIAS: Yes; for as we have given him liberty of speech we must let him go on until we have perfected the work of legislation.
CLEINIAS: Yes; since we've allowed him to speak freely, we need to let him continue until we've completed the legislation.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
Totally true.
ATHENIAN: Then now I may proceed?
ATHENIAN: So, can I go ahead now?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: What will be the manner of life among men who may be supposed to have their food and clothing provided for them in moderation, and who have entrusted the practice of the arts to others, and whose husbandry committed to slaves paying a part of the produce, brings them a return sufficient for men living temperately; who, moreover, have common tables in which the men are placed apart, and near them are the common tables of their families, of their daughters and mothers, which day by day, the officers, male and female, are to inspect—they shall see to the behaviour of the company, and so dismiss them; after which the presiding magistrate and his attendants shall honour with libations those Gods to whom that day and night are dedicated, and then go home? To men whose lives are thus ordered, is there no work remaining to be done which is necessary and fitting, but shall each one of them live fattening like a beast? Such a life is neither just nor honourable, nor can he who lives it fail of meeting his due; and the due reward of the idle fatted beast is that he should be torn in pieces by some other valiant beast whose fatness is worn down by brave deeds and toil. These regulations, if we duly consider them, will never be exactly carried into execution under present circumstances, nor as long as women and children and houses and all other things are the private property of individuals; but if we can attain the second-best form of polity, we shall be very well off. And to men living under this second polity there remains a work to be accomplished which is far from being small or insignificant, but is the greatest of all works, and ordained by the appointment of righteous law. For the life which may be truly said to be concerned with the virtue of body and soul is twice, or more than twice, as full of toil and trouble as the pursuit after Pythian and Olympic victories, which debars a man from every employment of life. For there ought to be no bye-work interfering with the greater work of providing the necessary exercise and nourishment for the body, and instruction and education for the soul. Night and day are not long enough for the accomplishment of their perfection and consummation; and therefore to this end all freemen ought to arrange the way in which they will spend their time during the whole course of the day, from morning till evening and from evening till the morning of the next sunrise. There may seem to be some impropriety in the legislator determining minutely the numberless details of the management of the house, including such particulars as the duty of wakefulness in those who are to be perpetual watchmen of the whole city; for that any citizen should continue during the whole of any night in sleep, instead of being seen by all his servants, always the first to awake and get up—this, whether the regulation is to be called a law or only a practice, should be deemed base and unworthy of a freeman; also that the mistress of the house should be awakened by her hand-maidens instead of herself first awakening them, is what the slaves, male and female, and the serving-boys, and, if that were possible, everybody and everything in the house should regard as base. If they rise early, they may all of them do much of their public and of their household business, as magistrates in the city, and masters and mistresses in their private houses, before the sun is up. Much sleep is not required by nature, either for our souls or bodies, or for the actions which they perform. For no one who is asleep is good for anything, any more than if he were dead; but he of us who has the most regard for life and reason keeps awake as long as he can, reserving only so much time for sleep as is expedient for health; and much sleep is not required, if the habit of moderation be once rightly formed. Magistrates in states who keep awake at night are terrible to the bad, whether enemies or citizens, and are honoured and reverenced by the just and temperate, and are useful to themselves and to the whole state.
ATHENIAN: What will life be like for people who have their food and clothing provided in moderation, who rely on others for their skills, and who have entrusted their farming to slaves that pay a portion of the harvest, providing enough for those living sensibly? They also have communal dining where men sit separately, with family tables nearby for their daughters and mothers, which are supervised daily by male and female officers; they ensure the behavior of the guests and dismiss them afterward. The leading magistrate and his aides will offer libations to the gods dedicated to that day and night before heading home. In a society organized this way, is there no important work left for anyone, or will each person simply exist like a fattened animal? Such a life is neither just nor honorable, and anyone living it will surely face their due consequences; the rightful outcome for a lazy, pampered creature is to be torn apart by a stronger beast, one who has earned its strength through courageous deeds and hard work. If we consider these regulations, we’ll see they won’t be perfectly implemented under the current situation, especially while women, children, homes, and everything else belong to individuals. However, if we can achieve a better form of governance, we will be in a good position. For those living under this improved system still have important work to do that is by no means minor or trivial, but rather the most significant task, as assigned by just laws. The life truly focused on the virtue of body and soul requires more effort and hardship than striving for Pythian and Olympic victories, which can keep a person away from all other pursuits in life. There shouldn’t be distractions from the more important tasks of providing the necessary exercise and nourishment for the body, along with education and guidance for the soul. There isn’t enough time in night and day to achieve full perfection, so all free people should plan how they’ll spend their time throughout the day, from morning to evening and then from evening until the next sunrise. It might seem inappropriate for lawmakers to meticulously decide countless details about household management, including the responsibilities of those who serve as the city’s watchmen. Any citizen sleeping through a whole night without being seen by their servants, always the first to wake and rise—this, whether we call it a law or a custom, should be considered disgraceful and unworthy of a free person. Additionally, it’s inappropriate for the lady of the house to be woken by her maids instead of waking them herself; all household members, both male and female slaves, as well as serving boys, should see this as disgraceful. If they rise early, they can take care of their public and domestic duties, serving as magistrates in the city and heads of their households, before dawn. Nature does not require much sleep for our souls, bodies, or the actions we undertake. A person who sleeps is not useful, just like one who is dead; but those who value life and reason stay awake as long as possible, allowing for just enough sleep to maintain health, as moderate habits can reduce the need for sleep. Nightly vigil by magistrates is intimidating to the wicked, whether enemies or fellow citizens, but honored and respected by the just and moderate, making them beneficial for both themselves and the entire state.
A night which is passed in such a manner, in addition to all the above-mentioned advantages, infuses a sort of courage into the minds of the citizens. When the day breaks, the time has arrived for youth to go to their schoolmasters. Now neither sheep nor any other animals can live without a shepherd, nor can children be left without tutors, or slaves without masters. And of all animals the boy is the most unmanageable, inasmuch as he has the fountain of reason in him not yet regulated; he is the most insidious, sharp-witted, and insubordinate of animals. Wherefore he must be bound with many bridles; in the first place, when he gets away from mothers and nurses, he must be under the management of tutors on account of his childishness and foolishness; then, again, being a freeman, he must be controlled by teachers, no matter what they teach, and by studies; but he is also a slave, and in that regard any freeman who comes in his way may punish him and his tutor and his instructor, if any of them does anything wrong; and he who comes across him and does not inflict upon him the punishment which he deserves, shall incur the greatest disgrace; and let the guardian of the law, who is the director of education, see to him who coming in the way of the offences which we have mentioned, does not chastise them when he ought, or chastises them in a way which he ought not; let him keep a sharp look-out, and take especial care of the training of our children, directing their natures, and always turning them to good according to the law.
A night spent this way, along with all the advantages mentioned earlier, gives a boost of courage to the minds of the citizens. When morning comes, it’s time for the youth to head to their teachers. Just like sheep or any other animals can’t thrive without a shepherd, kids can’t be left without educators, and servants without masters. Among all creatures, boys are the hardest to manage because their reasoning hasn’t yet been fully developed; they can be the most cunning, sharp, and rebellious of all. Therefore, they need to be guided with strict rules; first, when they’re away from mothers and caregivers, they must be under the supervision of teachers due to their childishness and foolishness. Then, as free individuals, they need to be governed by educators, regardless of what they teach, and by their studies. However, they are also treated as dependents, meaning any adult who crosses their path can discipline them and their tutors if any of them misbehave. If someone encounters them and fails to give them the punishment they deserve, they will be looked down upon. Moreover, the law guardian, who oversees education, must pay attention to those who ignore the offenses we've talked about—whether they fail to punish when they should, or punish inappropriately. They need to keep a close watch and take special care in guiding our children, shaping their character, and always leading them toward goodness according to the law.
But how can our law sufficiently train the director of education himself; for as yet all has been imperfect, and nothing has been said either clear or satisfactory? Now, as far as possible, the law ought to leave nothing to him, but to explain everything, that he may be an interpreter and tutor to others. About dances and music and choral strains, I have already spoken both as to the character of the selection of them, and the manner in which they are to be amended and consecrated. But we have not as yet spoken, O illustrious guardian of education, of the manner in which your pupils are to use those strains which are written in prose, although you have been informed what martial strains they are to learn and practise; what relates in the first place to the learning of letters, and secondly, to the lyre, and also to calculation, which, as we were saying, is needful for them all to learn, and any other things which are required with a view to war and the management of house and city, and, looking to the same object, what is useful in the revolutions of the heavenly bodies—the stars and sun and moon, and the various regulations about these matters which are necessary for the whole state—I am speaking of the arrangements of days in periods of months, and of months in years, which are to be observed, in order that seasons and sacrifices and festivals may have their regular and natural order, and keep the city alive and awake, the Gods receiving the honours due to them, and men having a better understanding about them: all these things, O my friend, have not yet been sufficiently declared to you by the legislator. Attend, then, to what I am now going to say: We were telling you, in the first place, that you were not sufficiently informed about letters, and the objection was to this effect—that you were never told whether he who was meant to be a respectable citizen should apply himself in detail to that sort of learning, or not apply himself at all; and the same remark holds good of the study of the lyre. But now we say that he ought to attend to them. A fair time for a boy of ten years old to spend in letters is three years; the age of thirteen is the proper time for him to begin to handle the lyre, and he may continue at this for another three years, neither more nor less, and whether his father or himself like or dislike the study, he is not to be allowed to spend more or less time in learning music than the law allows. And let him who disobeys the law be deprived of those youthful honours of which we shall hereafter speak. Hear, however, first of all, what the young ought to learn in the early years of life, and what their instructors ought to teach them. They ought to be occupied with their letters until they are able to read and write; but the acquisition of perfect beauty or quickness in writing, if nature has not stimulated them to acquire these accomplishments in the given number of years, they should let alone. And as to the learning of compositions committed to writing which are not set to the lyre, whether metrical or without rhythmical divisions, compositions in prose, as they are termed, having no rhythm or harmony—seeing how dangerous are the writings handed down to us by many writers of this class—what will you do with them, O most excellent guardians of the law? or how can the lawgiver rightly direct you about them? I believe that he will be in great difficulty.
But how can our laws properly train the director of education himself? So far, everything has been incomplete, and nothing has been communicated clearly or satisfactorily. As much as possible, the law should leave nothing up to him and explain everything so that he can be an interpreter and teacher for others. I've already discussed music, dances, and choral selections, as well as how they should be improved and dedicated. However, we haven’t talked yet, esteemed guardian of education, about how your students should engage with the prose works they are expected to read, even though you've been informed about the martial tunes they need to learn and practice; what relates to learning letters first, then the lyre, and also to mathematics, which, as we mentioned, is necessary for them all to learn, along with other things they need for war and managing home and city. Looking at the same purpose, we should consider what is useful in understanding the movements of celestial bodies—the stars, sun, and moon—and the regulations regarding these matters necessary for the entire state. I refer to the organization of days within months and months within years, which should be respected to ensure that seasons, sacrifices, and festivals proceed in their natural order, keeping the city active and attentive, with the Gods receiving their due honors and people gaining a better understanding of them. All these matters, my friend, have yet to be adequately explained to you by the legislator. So listen to what I’m about to say: We previously mentioned that you were not adequately informed about letters, and the concern was raised about whether a respectable citizen should focus on this type of learning in detail or not engage with it at all. The same point applies to studying the lyre. But now we assert that he should indeed focus on them. A good amount of time for a ten-year-old to spend on learning letters is three years; thirteen is the right age to start learning the lyre, continuing for another three years, no more and no less. Whether his father or he likes or dislikes the study, he must not spend more or less time learning music than the law stipulates. Whoever disobeys the law should be stripped of those youthful honors we will discuss later. However, first, listen to what young people should learn during their early years and what their teachers should instruct them. They should focus on learning letters until they can read and write. However, if nature hasn’t inspired them to achieve perfect beauty or speed in writing within the specified years, they should not pursue it further. Regarding the study of written works that aren’t set to music, whether they're metrical or free prose compositions lacking rhythm or harmony—given how dangerous the writings from many authors of this kind can be—what will you do about them, you excellent guardians of the law? Or how can the lawgiver correctly guide you on this? I suspect he will face significant challenges.
CLEINIAS: What troubles you, Stranger? and why are you so perplexed in your mind?
CLEINIAS: What's bothering you, Stranger? Why do you seem so confused?
ATHENIAN: You naturally ask, Cleinias, and to you and Megillus, who are my partners in the work of legislation, I must state the more difficult as well as the easier parts of the task.
ATHENIAN: You naturally ask, Cleinias, and to you and Megillus, who are my partners in shaping the laws, I need to outline both the harder and the easier aspects of the job.
CLEINIAS: To what do you refer in this instance?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about in this case?
ATHENIAN: I will tell you. There is a difficulty in opposing many myriads of mouths.
ATHENIAN: I'll tell you. It's challenging to go against so many voices.
CLEINIAS: Well, and have we not already opposed the popular voice in many important enactments?
CLEINIAS: Well, haven't we already gone against public opinion on several important laws?
ATHENIAN: That is quite true; and you mean to imply that the road which we are taking may be disagreeable to some but is agreeable to as many others, or if not to as many, at any rate to persons not inferior to the others, and in company with them you bid me, at whatever risk, to proceed along the path of legislation which has opened out of our present discourse, and to be of good cheer, and not to faint.
ATHENIAN: That's absolutely true; and you’re suggesting that the road we’re taking might be unpleasant for some but is just as pleasant for many others, or if not as many, at least for people who are just as capable as the others. You’re urging me, despite any risks, to move forward with the path of legislation that has come up in our conversation and to stay optimistic and not lose heart.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: And I do not faint; I say, indeed, that we have a great many poets writing in hexameter, trimeter, and all sorts of measures—some who are serious, others who aim only at raising a laugh—and all mankind declare that the youth who are rightly educated should be brought up in them and saturated with them; some insist that they should be constantly hearing them read aloud, and always learning them, so as to get by heart entire poets; while others select choice passages and long speeches, and make compendiums of them, saying that these ought to be committed to memory, if a man is to be made good and wise by experience and learning of many things. And you want me now to tell them plainly in what they are right and in what they are wrong.
ATHENIAN: And I’m not backing down; I really think we have a lot of poets writing in hexameter, trimeter, and all kinds of rhythms—some serious, others just trying to be funny—and everyone agrees that well-educated young people should be immersed in them. Some believe they should constantly hear them read aloud and memorize whole poems, while others pick out select passages and lengthy speeches, creating compilations that should be memorized if someone wants to become good and wise through experience and learning a lot. And now you want me to clearly explain where they're right and where they're wrong.
CLEINIAS: Yes, I do.
CLEINIAS: Sure, I do.
ATHENIAN: But how can I in one word rightly comprehend all of them? I am of opinion, and, if I am not mistaken, there is a general agreement, that every one of these poets has said many things well and many things the reverse of well; and if this be true, then I do affirm that much learning is dangerous to youth.
ATHENIAN: But how can I sum them all up in just one word? I think, and if I'm not wrong, most people agree, that each of these poets has said some things well and other things not so well; and if that’s the case, then I truly believe that too much knowledge can be harmful for young people.
CLEINIAS: How would you advise the guardian of the law to act?
CLEINIAS: What would you suggest the law guardian do?
ATHENIAN: In what respect?
ATHENIAN: How so?
CLEINIAS: I mean to what pattern should he look as his guide in permitting the young to learn some things and forbidding them to learn others. Do not shrink from answering.
CLEINIAS: I’m asking what standard he should follow when deciding which things to let the young learn and which things to keep them from learning. Don’t hesitate to answer.
ATHENIAN: My good Cleinias, I rather think that I am fortunate.
ATHENIAN: My good Cleinias, I feel pretty lucky.
CLEINIAS: How so?
CLEINIAS: How come?
ATHENIAN: I think that I am not wholly in want of a pattern, for when I consider the words which we have spoken from early dawn until now, and which, as I believe, have been inspired by Heaven, they appear to me to be quite like a poem. When I reflected upon all these words of ours, I naturally felt pleasure, for of all the discourses which I have ever learnt or heard, either in poetry or prose, this seemed to me to be the justest, and most suitable for young men to hear; I cannot imagine any better pattern than this which the guardian of the law who is also the director of education can have. He cannot do better than advise the teachers to teach the young these words and any which are of a like nature, if he should happen to find them, either in poetry or prose, or if he come across unwritten discourses akin to ours, he should certainly preserve them, and commit them to writing. And, first of all, he shall constrain the teachers themselves to learn and approve them, and any of them who will not, shall not be employed by him, but those whom he finds agreeing in his judgment, he shall make use of and shall commit to them the instruction and education of youth. And here and on this wise let my fanciful tale about letters and teachers of letters come to an end.
ATHENIAN: I don’t think I really need a template because when I consider the words we've shared from early morning until now—words that I believe have been inspired by a higher power—they feel like a poem to me. Reflecting on all these discussions brings me joy, because of all the talks I’ve ever learned or heard, whether in poetry or prose, this seems to be the fairest and most suitable for young people to hear. I can’t imagine a better model for the guardian of the law and education to have. He should encourage teachers to share these ideas with the youth, and if he finds similar thoughts in poetry, prose, or unwritten discussions like ours, he should definitely preserve and write them down. First, he should ensure that the teachers themselves learn and endorse these ideas, and anyone who won’t should not be employed by him. Those whom he finds in agreement with his judgment should be utilized, and he should delegate the task of guiding and educating the youth to them. And so, let my imaginative tale about letters and teaching come to a close.
CLEINIAS: I do not think, Stranger, that we have wandered out of the proposed limits of the argument; but whether we are right or not in our whole conception, I cannot be very certain.
CLEINIAS: I don't think, Stranger, that we've strayed beyond the intended focus of our discussion; however, I'm not very sure if our entire understanding is correct.
ATHENIAN: The truth, Cleinias, may be expected to become clearer when, as we have often said, we arrive at the end of the whole discussion about laws.
ATHENIAN: The truth, Cleinias, is likely to become clearer once we reach the end of our entire discussion about laws, as we have often mentioned.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: And now that we have done with the teacher of letters, the teacher of the lyre has to receive orders from us.
ATHENIAN: Now that we're done with the letters teacher, the lyre teacher needs to take orders from us.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: I think that we have only to recollect our previous discussions, and we shall be able to give suitable regulations touching all this part of instruction and education to the teachers of the lyre.
ATHENIAN: I believe if we just remember our earlier discussions, we can come up with appropriate guidelines for all aspects of instruction and education for the lyre teachers.
CLEINIAS: To what do you refer?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: We were saying, if I remember rightly, that the sixty years old choristers of Dionysus were to be specially quick in their perceptions of rhythm and musical composition, that they might be able to distinguish good and bad imitation, that is to say, the imitation of the good or bad soul when under the influence of passion, rejecting the one and displaying the other in hymns and songs, charming the souls of youth, and inviting them to follow and attain virtue by the way of imitation.
ATHENIAN: We were saying, if I remember correctly, that the sixty-year-old choristers of Dionysus should be especially quick to perceive rhythm and musical composition. They ought to be able to tell the difference between good and bad imitation, meaning the imitation of a good or bad soul when affected by passion, rejecting the former and showcasing the latter in hymns and songs, captivating the souls of young people and encouraging them to pursue and achieve virtue through imitation.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: And with this view the teacher and the learner ought to use the sounds of the lyre, because its notes are pure, the player who teaches and his pupil rendering note for note in unison; but complexity, and variation of notes, when the strings give one sound and the poet or composer of the melody gives another—also when they make concords and harmonies in which lesser and greater intervals, slow and quick, or high and low notes, are combined—or, again, when they make complex variations of rhythms, which they adapt to the notes of the lyre—all that sort of thing is not suited to those who have to acquire speedy and useful knowledge of music in three years; for opposite principles are confusing, and create a difficulty in learning, and our young men should learn quickly, and their mere necessary acquirements are not few or trifling, as will be shown in due course. Let the director of education attend to the principles concerning music which we are laying down. As to the songs and words themselves which the masters of choruses are to teach and the character of them, they have been already described by us, and are the same which, when consecrated and adapted to the different festivals, we said were to benefit cities by affording them an innocent amusement.
ATHENIAN: The teacher and the student should use the sounds of the lyre, as its notes are clear, and both the teacher and the student should play in unison. However, adding complexity and variations in notes, where the strings produce one sound but the poet or composer creates another, as well as creating harmonies with different intervals, speeds, or pitch, or making intricate rhythm variations that fit the lyre’s notes, isn’t suitable for those needing to learn music quickly and effectively in three years. Conflicting principles can be confusing and make learning difficult. Our young men need to learn efficiently, and their essential skills are significant, as we will demonstrate later. The education director should focus on the music principles we are establishing. As for the songs and lyrics to be taught by the chorus masters, we've already described them, and they are the same ones that, when tailored for various festivals, were intended to provide cities with harmless entertainment.
CLEINIAS: That, again, is true.
CLEINIAS: That's true again.
ATHENIAN: Then let him who has been elected a director of music receive these rules from us as containing the very truth; and may he prosper in his office! Let us now proceed to lay down other rules in addition to the preceding about dancing and gymnastic exercise in general. Having said what remained to be said about the teaching of music, let us speak in like manner about gymnastic. For boys and girls ought to learn to dance and practise gymnastic exercises—ought they not?
ATHENIAN: Then let the person elected as music director receive these rules from us as the absolute truth; and may he thrive in his role! Now, let's move on to establish additional rules regarding dancing and gymnastic exercises in general. After we've covered everything about teaching music, let’s address gymnastic training as well. Boys and girls should learn to dance and practice gymnastics—shouldn’t they?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: Then the boys ought to have dancing masters, and the girls dancing mistresses to exercise them.
ATHENIAN: Then the boys should have dance instructors, and the girls should have dance teachers to train them.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Then once more let us summon him who has the chief concern in the business, the superintendent of youth [i.e. the director of education]; he will have plenty to do, if he is to have the charge of music and gymnastic.
ATHENIAN: Then let’s call once again the person who is mainly responsible for this, the head of youth education; he’ll have a lot on his plate if he’s in charge of music and athletics.
CLEINIAS: But how will an old man be able to attend to such great charges?
CLEINIAS: But how can an old man handle such big responsibilities?
ATHENIAN: O my friend, there will be no difficulty, for the law has already given and will give him permission to select as his assistants in this charge any citizens, male or female, whom he desires; and he will know whom he ought to choose, and will be anxious not to make a mistake, from a due sense of responsibility, and from a consciousness of the importance of his office, and also because he will consider that if young men have been and are well brought up, then all things go swimmingly, but if not, it is not meet to say, nor do we say, what will follow, lest the regarders of omens should take alarm about our infant state. Many things have been said by us about dancing and about gymnastic movements in general; for we include under gymnastics all military exercises, such as archery, and all hurling of weapons, and the use of the light shield, and all fighting with heavy arms, and military evolutions, and movements of armies, and encampings, and all that relates to horsemanship. Of all these things there ought to be public teachers, receiving pay from the state, and their pupils should be the men and boys in the state, and also the girls and women, who are to know all these things. While they are yet girls they should have practised dancing in arms and the whole art of fighting—when grown-up women, they should apply themselves to evolutions and tactics, and the mode of grounding and taking up arms; if for no other reason, yet in case the whole military force should have to leave the city and carry on operations of war outside, that those who will have to guard the young and the rest of the city may be equal to the task; and, on the other hand, when enemies, whether barbarian or Hellenic, come from without with mighty force and make a violent assault upon them, and thus compel them to fight for the possession of the city, which is far from being an impossibility, great would be the disgrace to the state, if the women had been so miserably trained that they could not fight for their young, as birds will, against any creature however strong, and die or undergo any danger, but must instantly rush to the temples and crowd at the altars and shrines, and bring upon human nature the reproach, that of all animals man is the most cowardly!
ATHENIAN: Oh my friend, there will be no problem, because the law has already allowed him to choose any citizens, male or female, he wants as his assistants in this role; he will know who to pick and will be careful not to make a mistake out of a sense of duty and because he understands the importance of his position. He will also think that if young people have been well raised, then everything will go smoothly, but if not, it wouldn’t be appropriate to say what might happen, or we shouldn’t say it, lest the interpreters of omens become worried about our young state. We’ve talked a lot about dancing and gymnastic movements in general; we include all military exercises as gymnastics, such as archery, throwing weapons, using the light shield, heavy combat, military maneuvers, troop movements, camping, and everything related to horse riding. For all these things, there should be public teachers paid by the state, and their students should include men, boys, and also girls and women, who need to learn all these skills. While they are still girls, they should practice dancing in arms and the whole fighting technique—when they grow up, they should focus on maneuvers and tactics, as well as the proper way to handle and put down arms; if for no other reason, then in case the entire military force has to leave the city and conduct operations outside, so those left to protect the young and the rest of the city are prepared for the task. Furthermore, when enemies, whether barbarian or Greek, come from outside with great force and launch a violent attack, forcing them to fight for the city, which isn’t impossible, it would be a huge disgrace for the state if the women have been so poorly trained that they couldn’t fight for their young, as birds do, against any strong creature, risking their lives or facing any danger. Instead, they would just rush to the temples and crowd at the altars and shrines, bringing upon humanity the shame that among all animals, humans are the most cowardly!
CLEINIAS: Such a want of education, Stranger, is certainly an unseemly thing to happen in a state, as well as a great misfortune.
CLEINIAS: Such a lack of education, Stranger, is definitely an inappropriate thing for a society and a significant misfortune.
ATHENIAN: Suppose that we carry our law to the extent of saying that women ought not to neglect military matters, but that all citizens, male and female alike, shall attend to them?
ATHENIAN: What if we took our law further and said that women should not ignore military matters, and that all citizens, both men and women, should be involved in them?
CLEINIAS: I quite agree.
CLEINIAS: I totally agree.
ATHENIAN: Of wrestling we have spoken in part, but of what I should call the most important part we have not spoken, and cannot easily speak without showing at the same time by gesture as well as in word what we mean; when word and action combine, and not till then, we shall explain clearly what has been said, pointing out that of all movements wrestling is most akin to the military art, and is to be pursued for the sake of this, and not this for the sake of wrestling.
ATHENIAN: We've talked about wrestling a bit, but we haven't addressed what I consider the most important part, which we can't easily convey without demonstrating it through gesture as well as through words. Only when words and actions come together will we be able to clearly explain what we've discussed, highlighting that among all movements, wrestling is the closest to military skill, and we pursue wrestling for the sake of that, not the other way around.
CLEINIAS: Excellent. ATHENIAN: Enough of wrestling; we will now proceed to speak of other movements of the body. Such motion may be in general called dancing, and is of two kinds: one of nobler figures, imitating the honourable, the other of the more ignoble figures, imitating the mean; and of both these there are two further subdivisions. Of the serious, one kind is of those engaged in war and vehement action, and is the exercise of a noble person and a manly heart; the other exhibits a temperate soul in the enjoyment of prosperity and modest pleasures, and may be truly called and is the dance of peace. The warrior dance is different from the peaceful one, and may be rightly termed Pyrrhic; this imitates the modes of avoiding blows and missiles by dropping or giving way, or springing aside, or rising up or falling down; also the opposite postures which are those of action, as, for example, the imitation of archery and the hurling of javelins, and of all sorts of blows. And when the imitation is of brave bodies and souls, and the action is direct and muscular, giving for the most part a straight movement to the limbs of the body—that, I say, is the true sort; but the opposite is not right. In the dance of peace what we have to consider is whether a man bears himself naturally and gracefully, and after the manner of men who duly conform to the law. But before proceeding I must distinguish the dancing about which there is any doubt, from that about which there is no doubt. Which is the doubtful kind, and how are the two to be distinguished? There are dances of the Bacchic sort, both those in which, as they say, they imitate drunken men, and which are named after the Nymphs, and Pan, and Silenuses, and Satyrs; and also those in which purifications are made or mysteries celebrated—all this sort of dancing cannot be rightly defined as having either a peaceful or a warlike character, or indeed as having any meaning whatever, and may, I think, be most truly described as distinct from the warlike dance, and distinct from the peaceful, and not suited for a city at all. There let it lie; and so leaving it to lie, we will proceed to the dances of war and peace, for with these we are undoubtedly concerned. Now the unwarlike muse, which honours in dance the Gods and the sons of the Gods, is entirely associated with the consciousness of prosperity; this class may be subdivided into two lesser classes, of which one is expressive of an escape from some labour or danger into good, and has greater pleasures, the other expressive of preservation and increase of former good, in which the pleasure is less exciting—in all these cases, every man when the pleasure is greater, moves his body more, and less when the pleasure is less; and, again, if he be more orderly and has learned courage from discipline he moves less, but if he be a coward, and has no training or self-control, he makes greater and more violent movements, and in general when he is speaking or singing he is not altogether able to keep his body still; and so out of the imitation of words in gestures the whole art of dancing has arisen. And in these various kinds of imitation one man moves in an orderly, another in a disorderly manner; and as the ancients may be observed to have given many names which are according to nature and deserving of praise, so there is an excellent one which they have given to the dances of men who in their times of prosperity are moderate in their pleasures—the giver of names, whoever he was, assigned to them a very true, and poetical, and rational name, when he called them Emmeleiai, or dances of order, thus establishing two kinds of dances of the nobler sort, the dance of war which he called the Pyrrhic, and the dance of peace which he called Emmeleia, or the dance of order; giving to each their appropriate and becoming name. These things the legislator should indicate in general outline, and the guardian of the law should enquire into them and search them out, combining dancing with music, and assigning to the several sacrificial feasts that which is suitable to them; and when he has consecrated all of them in due order, he shall for the future change nothing, whether of dance or song. Thenceforward the city and the citizens shall continue to have the same pleasures, themselves being as far as possible alike, and shall live well and happily.
CLEINIAS: Great. ATHENIAN: Enough with wrestling; let's move on to discuss other body movements. This kind of movement can generally be called dancing, and it comes in two types: one represents noble figures, imitating the honorable, while the other reflects more ignoble figures, imitating the lowly; and each of these has two further subdivisions. For the serious type, one kind represents those engaged in war and intense actions, showcasing the exercise of a noble and strong spirit; the other displays a calm soul enjoying prosperity and modest pleasures, which can genuinely be called a dance of peace. The warrior dance differs from the peaceful one and is rightly termed Pyrrhic; it mimics how to evade blows and projectiles by dropping down or moving aside, or rising up or falling down; it also includes the opposite movements related to action, such as mimicking archery, javelin throwing, and various types of strikes. When the imitation involves brave bodies and souls, with direct and muscular action giving a predominately straight movement to the body, that represents the true form; the opposite does not. In the dance of peace, we need to consider if a person carries themselves naturally and gracefully, in line with how those who respect the law act. But before moving forward, I must clarify the type of dance that raises doubts from the clearly defined. What is the doubtful kind, and how can we tell the two apart? There are dances of the Bacchic sort, including those that mimic drunkenness and are associated with Nymphs, Pan, Silenus, and Satyrs; there are also those where purifications are carried out or mysteries celebrated—all these dances cannot be clearly defined as having either a peaceful or warlike nature, or even as having any meaning at all, and I believe they are best described as distinct from both warrior and peaceful dances, making them unsuitable for a city. Let them remain where they are; leaving that aside, we'll focus on the dances of war and peace, as these are definitely relevant to us. The unwarlike muse, which honors the Gods and their offspring through dance, is fully linked to the awareness of prosperity; this category can be further split into two smaller classes, one expressing an escape from labor or danger into something good, with greater pleasures, and the other reflecting the preservation and enhancement of previous goods, where the delight is less intense—in all these cases, when pleasure is greater, individuals move more, and when it's lower, they move less; furthermore, if one is more disciplined and has learned courage through training, they will move less, while if one is cowardly, without training or self-control, they tend to move more violently, and generally, when speaking or singing, they can’t keep still; hence, from the imitation of words in gestures, the whole art of dance has emerged. In these various forms of imitation, one person moves in a disciplined way, another in a chaotic manner; as we can see from the ancients, they assigned many names that are true to nature and commendable. One excellent name they gave to the dances of people who, in their times of prosperity, are moderate in their pleasures — the namer, whoever they were, rightly assigned a true, poetic, and rational name, calling them Emmeleiai, or dances of order, thus establishing two kinds of nobler dances: the war dance dubbed Pyrrhic and the peace dance named Emmeleia, or the dance of order, appropriately naming each. The legislator should present these concepts broadly, and the guardian of the law should investigate and understand them, combining dance with music, and assigning appropriate expressions for the various sacrificial feasts; once he has consecrated them all in proper order, he should change nothing in terms of dance or song. From then on, the city and its citizens should continue enjoying the same pleasures, striving to be as similar as possible, and they shall live well and happily.
I have described the dances which are appropriate to noble bodies and generous souls. But it is necessary also to consider and know uncomely persons and thoughts, and those which are intended to produce laughter in comedy, and have a comic character in respect of style, song, and dance, and of the imitations which these afford. For serious things cannot be understood without laughable things, nor opposites at all without opposites, if a man is really to have intelligence of either; but he cannot carry out both in action, if he is to have any degree of virtue. And for this very reason he should learn them both, in order that he may not in ignorance do or say anything which is ridiculous and out of place—he should command slaves and hired strangers to imitate such things, but he should never take any serious interest in them himself, nor should any freeman or freewoman be discovered taking pains to learn them; and there should always be some element of novelty in the imitation. Let these then be laid down, both in law and in our discourse, as the regulations of laughable amusements which are generally called comedy. And, if any of the serious poets, as they are termed, who write tragedy, come to us and say—'O strangers, may we go to your city and country or may we not, and shall we bring with us our poetry—what is your will about these matters?'—how shall we answer the divine men? I think that our answer should be as follows: Best of strangers, we will say to them, we also according to our ability are tragic poets, and our tragedy is the best and noblest; for our whole state is an imitation of the best and noblest life, which we affirm to be indeed the very truth of tragedy. You are poets and we are poets, both makers of the same strains, rivals and antagonists in the noblest of dramas, which true law can alone perfect, as our hope is. Do not then suppose that we shall all in a moment allow you to erect your stage in the agora, or introduce the fair voices of your actors, speaking above our own, and permit you to harangue our women and children, and the common people, about our institutions, in language other than our own, and very often the opposite of our own. For a state would be mad which gave you this licence, until the magistrates had determined whether your poetry might be recited, and was fit for publication or not. Wherefore, O ye sons and scions of the softer Muses, first of all show your songs to the magistrates, and let them compare them with our own, and if they are the same or better we will give you a chorus; but if not, then, my friends, we cannot. Let these, then, be the customs ordained by law about all dances and the teaching of them, and let matters relating to slaves be separated from those relating to masters, if you do not object.
I have talked about the dances suitable for noble people and generous souls. However, it's also important to consider and understand those who are awkward and the thoughts that come with them, along with those meant to provoke laughter in comedy, with a comedic style, song, dance, and the imitations they provide. Serious things can’t be grasped without laughable things, nor can opposites be understood without their other halves, if someone wants to truly comprehend either of them; yet, one can’t embody both in practice if they wish to maintain any level of virtue. For this reason, one should learn both so they don’t unknowingly say or do anything foolish or out of place—they should instruct slaves and hired workers to imitate such things, but should never seriously engage with them themselves, nor should any free person be found striving to learn them; there should always be some element of novelty in the imitation. Let’s establish these as the guidelines for comedic entertainment, generally referred to as comedy. And if any of the serious poets, as they’re called, who write tragedy come to us and say, “Oh strangers, may we come to your city and country or not, and can we bring our poetry—what do you think about this?”—how shall we respond to these esteemed men? I believe our response should be as follows: Best of strangers, we will tell them, we too consider ourselves tragic poets, and our tragedy is the finest and most honorable; because our entire state is an imitation of the best and noblest life, which we declare to be the true essence of tragedy. You are poets, and so are we, both creators of the same themes, competitors in the highest drama, which only true law can perfect, as we hope. Do not assume that we will suddenly let you set up your stage in the marketplace or let the beautiful voices of your actors speak over ours and address our women, children, and the general public about our institutions in a language other than our own, in many cases the opposite of our own. For a state would be foolish to grant you this freedom until the officials decide whether your poetry can be recited and is suitable for public performance. Therefore, oh you offspring of the softer Muses, first present your songs to the officials, and let them compare them to our own; if they’re the same or better, we will provide you with a chorus; but if not, then, my friends, we cannot. Let these be the laws established regarding all dances and their teaching, and let matters concerning slaves be kept separate from those concerning masters, if that’s agreeable to you.
CLEINIAS: We can have no hesitation in assenting when you put the matter thus.
CLEINIAS: We can’t hesitate to agree when you put it that way.
ATHENIAN: There still remain three studies suitable for freemen. Arithmetic is one of them; the measurement of length, surface, and depth is the second; and the third has to do with the revolutions of the stars in relation to one another. Not every one has need to toil through all these things in a strictly scientific manner, but only a few, and who they are to be we will hereafter indicate at the end, which will be the proper place; not to know what is necessary for mankind in general, and what is the truth, is disgraceful to every one: and yet to enter into these matters minutely is neither easy, nor at all possible for every one; but there is something in them which is necessary and cannot be set aside, and probably he who made the proverb about God originally had this in view when he said, that 'not even God himself can fight against necessity;' he meant, if I am not mistaken, divine necessity; for as to the human necessities of which the many speak, when they talk in this manner, nothing can be more ridiculous than such an application of the words.
ATHENIAN: There are still three areas of study suitable for free individuals. Arithmetic is one of them; the second involves measuring length, area, and depth; and the third relates to the movements of the stars in relation to one another. Not everyone needs to study these subjects in a strictly scientific way, just a few, and we will identify who they are later, which will be the right time for it. Ignorance of what is essential for humanity and the truth is shameful for everyone. However, diving deep into these topics is neither easy nor possible for everyone. Yet, there is something in them that is necessary and cannot be ignored. The person who coined the saying about God probably had this in mind when he said, 'not even God himself can fight against necessity;' he was referring, if I’m not mistaken, to divine necessity. As for the human necessities that people often discuss, nothing could be more absurd than applying those words in that context.
CLEINIAS: And what necessities of knowledge are there, Stranger, which are divine and not human?
CLEINIAS: What essential knowledge is there, Stranger, that comes from the divine and not from humans?
ATHENIAN: I conceive them to be those of which he who has no use nor any knowledge at all cannot be a God, or demi-god, or hero to mankind, or able to take any serious thought or charge of them. And very unlike a divine man would he be, who is unable to count one, two, three, or to distinguish odd and even numbers, or is unable to count at all, or reckon night and day, and who is totally unacquainted with the revolution of the sun and moon, and the other stars. There would be great folly in supposing that all these are not necessary parts of knowledge to him who intends to know anything about the highest kinds of knowledge; but which these are, and how many there are of them, and when they are to be learned, and what is to be learned together and what apart, and the whole correlation of them, must be rightly apprehended first; and these leading the way we may proceed to the other parts of knowledge. For so necessity grounded in nature constrains us, against which we say that no God contends, or ever will contend.
ATHENIAN: I believe that those who have no use for or knowledge of certain things cannot be a God, demigod, or hero to humanity, nor can they seriously think about or manage those things. It would be very un-godlike for someone not to be able to count one, two, three, distinguish between odd and even numbers, or to know how to count at all, or recognize night and day, and who is completely unfamiliar with the movements of the sun, moon, and other stars. It would be foolish to think that all this knowledge isn’t essential for anyone who wants to understand the highest forms of knowledge. However, we must first understand what these are, how many there are, when they should be learned, what should be learned together, what separately, and how they all relate to each other. Once we grasp these fundamentals, we can move on to other areas of knowledge. This is because necessity rooted in nature compels us, against which we say that no God argues, nor will ever argue.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that what you have now said is very true and agreeable to nature.
CLEINIAS: I think, Stranger, that what you've just said is very true and aligns with nature.
ATHENIAN: Yes, Cleinias, that is so. But it is difficult for the legislator to begin with these studies; at a more convenient time we will make regulations for them.
ATHENIAN: Yes, Cleinias, that's true. But it's tough for the lawmaker to start with these topics; we'll set the rules for them at a better time.
CLEINIAS: You seem, Stranger, to be afraid of our habitual ignorance of the subject: there is no reason why that should prevent you from speaking out.
CLEINIAS: You seem, Stranger, to be hesitant because of our usual lack of understanding on this topic; that shouldn’t stop you from speaking your mind.
ATHENIAN: I certainly am afraid of the difficulties to which you allude, but I am still more afraid of those who apply themselves to this sort of knowledge, and apply themselves badly. For entire ignorance is not so terrible or extreme an evil, and is far from being the greatest of all; too much cleverness and too much learning, accompanied with an ill bringing up, are far more fatal.
ATHENIAN: I’m definitely worried about the challenges you mentioned, but I’m even more afraid of those who try to gain this kind of knowledge but do it poorly. Complete ignorance isn’t that serious or extreme, and it’s far from the worst thing; being overly clever and well-read, but raised poorly, is much more dangerous.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: All freemen I conceive, should learn as much of these branches of knowledge as every child in Egypt is taught when he learns the alphabet. In that country arithmetical games have been invented for the use of mere children, which they learn as a pleasure and amusement. They have to distribute apples and garlands, using the same number sometimes for a larger and sometimes for a lesser number of persons; and they arrange pugilists and wrestlers as they pair together by lot or remain over, and show how their turns come in natural order. Another mode of amusing them is to distribute vessels, sometimes of gold, brass, silver, and the like, intermixed with one another, sometimes of one metal only; as I was saying they adapt to their amusement the numbers in common use, and in this way make more intelligible to their pupils the arrangements and movements of armies and expeditions, and in the management of a household they make people more useful to themselves, and more wide awake; and again in measurements of things which have length, and breadth, and depth, they free us from that natural ignorance of all these things which is so ludicrous and disgraceful.
ATHENIAN: I believe that all free people should learn as much about these subjects as every child in Egypt does when they learn the alphabet. In that country, they've created counting games for young kids, which they enjoy and find entertaining. They practice distributing apples and garlands, sometimes using the same number for a larger group and sometimes for a smaller one; they also pair up fighters and wrestlers, either through chance or if they have to stay behind, showing how their turns come in a natural order. Another way to entertain them is by distributing containers, sometimes made of gold, brass, silver, and so on, mixed together or made of just one metal; as I mentioned, they adapt everyday numbers for fun, making it easier for their students to understand the organization and movements of armies and military campaigns. They also help people manage their households more effectively and keep them alert. Additionally, when it comes to measuring things that have length, width, and depth, they help us overcome the natural ignorance we have about such things, which can be quite embarrassing and ridiculous.
CLEINIAS: What kind of ignorance do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What kind of ignorance are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: O my dear Cleinias, I, like yourself, have late in life heard with amazement of our ignorance in these matters; to me we appear to be more like pigs than men, and I am quite ashamed, not only of myself, but of all Hellenes.
ATHENIAN: Oh my dear Cleinias, just like you, I've recently been amazed to realize how ignorant we are about these things; honestly, we seem more like pigs than humans, and I feel pretty ashamed, not just of myself, but of all Greeks.
CLEINIAS: About what? Say, Stranger, what you mean.
CLEINIAS: About what? Tell me, Stranger, what you mean.
ATHENIAN: I will; or rather I will show you my meaning by a question, and do you please to answer me: You know, I suppose, what length is?
ATHENIAN: I will; or actually, I’ll show you what I mean with a question, and if you could please answer me: You know, I assume, what length is?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Totally.
ATHENIAN: And what breadth is?
ATHENIAN: And what is the width?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And you know that these are two distinct things, and that there is a third thing called depth?
ATHENIAN: And you know that these are two different things, and that there’s a third thing called depth?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: And do not all these seem to you to be commensurable with themselves?
ATHENIAN: Don’t all these seem to you to be comparable to each other?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yup.
ATHENIAN: That is to say, length is naturally commensurable with length, and breadth with breadth, and depth in like manner with depth?
ATHENIAN: In other words, length naturally relates to length, and breadth to breadth, and depth in the same way to depth?
CLEINIAS: Undoubtedly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: But if some things are commensurable and others wholly incommensurable, and you think that all things are commensurable, what is your position in regard to them?
ATHENIAN: But if some things can be measured against each other and others can't at all, and you believe that everything can be measured, what do you think about that?
CLEINIAS: Clearly, far from good.
CLEINIAS: Clearly, not good at all.
ATHENIAN: Concerning length and breadth when compared with depth, or breadth and length when compared with one another, are not all the Hellenes agreed that these are commensurable with one another in some way?
ATHENIAN: When it comes to length and width compared to depth, or width and length compared to each other, don't you think all the Greeks agree that these can be measured against each other in some way?
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: But if they are absolutely incommensurable, and yet all of us regard them as commensurable, have we not reason to be ashamed of our compatriots; and might we not say to them: O ye best of Hellenes, is not this one of the things of which we were saying that not to know them is disgraceful, and of which to have a bare knowledge only is no great distinction?
ATHENIAN: But if they are completely incommensurable, and yet all of us see them as comparable, shouldn't we be ashamed of our fellow citizens? Can't we say to them: O you best of Greeks, isn't this one of those things we were talking about when we said that not knowing them is shameful, and that just having a surface-level understanding isn’t something to be proud of?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And there are other things akin to these, in which there spring up other errors of the same family.
ATHENIAN: And there are other things like these, where other mistakes of the same type arise.
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: The natures of commensurable and incommensurable quantities in their relation to one another. A man who is good for anything ought to be able, when he thinks, to distinguish them; and different persons should compete with one another in asking questions, which will be a far better and more graceful way of passing their time than the old man's game of draughts.
ATHENIAN: The nature of comparable and incomparable quantities in relation to each other. A person who is capable should be able to recognize the difference when they think; and various individuals should challenge each other with questions, which is a much better and more elegant way to spend their time than playing the old man's game of checkers.
CLEINIAS: I dare say; and these pastimes are not so very unlike a game of draughts.
CLEINIAS: I must say; these activities aren’t too different from a game of checkers.
ATHENIAN: And these, as I maintain, Cleinias, are the studies which our youth ought to learn, for they are innocent and not difficult; the learning of them will be an amusement, and they will benefit the state. If any one is of another mind, let him say what he has to say.
ATHENIAN: And these, as I believe, Cleinias, are the subjects that our young people should study, because they are harmless and not too hard; learning them will be enjoyable, and they will help the community. If anyone thinks differently, let them share their thoughts.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then if these studies are such as we maintain, we will include them; if not, they shall be excluded.
ATHENIAN: So, if these studies are as we say they are, we'll include them; if not, we'll leave them out.
CLEINIAS: Assuredly: but may we not now, Stranger, prescribe these studies as necessary, and so fill up the lacunae of our laws?
CLEINIAS: Surely, but can we not now, Stranger, suggest that these studies are essential and fill the gaps in our laws?
ATHENIAN: They shall be regarded as pledges which may be hereafter redeemed and removed from our state, if they do not please either us who give them, or you who accept them.
ATHENIAN: They will be seen as promises that can be taken back and removed from our state in the future if they're not satisfactory to either us who give them, or you who accept them.
CLEINIAS: A fair condition.
CLEINIAS: A good deal.
ATHENIAN: Next let us see whether we are or are not willing that the study of astronomy shall be proposed for our youth.
ATHENIAN: Next, let’s see if we are willing to propose the study of astronomy for our youth.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Here occurs a strange phenomenon, which certainly cannot in any point of view be tolerated.
ATHENIAN: A strange phenomenon is happening here, and it definitely can't be accepted in any way.
CLEINIAS: To what are you referring?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: Men say that we ought not to enquire into the supreme God and the nature of the universe, nor busy ourselves in searching out the causes of things, and that such enquiries are impious; whereas the very opposite is the truth.
ATHENIAN: People say that we shouldn't try to understand the supreme God and the nature of the universe, or spend our time searching for the reasons behind things, claiming that such inquiries are disrespectful; however, the exact opposite is true.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: Perhaps what I am saying may seem paradoxical, and at variance with the usual language of age. But when any one has any good and true notion which is for the advantage of the state and in every way acceptable to God, he cannot abstain from expressing it.
ATHENIAN: What I’m saying might sound unusual and different from what people usually say as they get older. But when someone has a good and true idea that benefits the state and is pleasing to God, they can't hold back from sharing it.
CLEINIAS: Your words are reasonable enough; but shall we find any good or true notion about the stars?
CLEINIAS: Your points make sense, but are we going to discover any real or accurate ideas about the stars?
ATHENIAN: My good friends, at this hour all of us Hellenes tell lies, if I may use such an expression, about those great Gods, the Sun and the Moon.
ATHENIAN: My good friends, right now all of us Greeks are telling lies, if I may put it that way, about those great Gods, the Sun and the Moon.
CLEINIAS: Lies of what nature?
CLEINIAS: Lies of what kind?
ATHENIAN: We say that they and divers other stars do not keep the same path, and we call them planets or wanderers.
ATHENIAN: We say that they and various other stars don’t follow the same path, and we call them planets or wanderers.
CLEINIAS: Very true, Stranger; and in the course of my life I have often myself seen the morning star and the evening star and divers others not moving in their accustomed course, but wandering out of their path in all manner of ways, and I have seen the sun and moon doing what we all know that they do.
CLEINIAS: That's very true, Stranger; throughout my life, I've often seen the morning star, the evening star, and various others not following their usual paths, but moving around in all sorts of ways. I've also seen the sun and moon doing what we all know they do.
ATHENIAN: Just so, Megillus and Cleinias; and I maintain that our citizens and our youth ought to learn about the nature of the Gods in heaven, so far as to be able to offer sacrifices and pray to them in pious language, and not to blaspheme about them.
ATHENIAN: Exactly, Megillus and Cleinias; I believe that our citizens and our young people should understand the nature of the Gods in heaven enough to be able to offer sacrifices and pray to them respectfully, and not to speak irreverently about them.
CLEINIAS: There you are right, if such a knowledge be only attainable; and if we are wrong in our mode of speaking now, and can be better instructed and learn to use better language, then I quite agree with you that such a degree of knowledge as will enable us to speak rightly should be acquired by us. And now do you try to explain to us your whole meaning, and we, on our part, will endeavour to understand you.
CLEINIAS: You're right, if such knowledge is even possible to obtain; and if we're incorrect in how we're speaking now, and can be taught better and learn to use improved language, then I completely agree with you that we should acquire a level of knowledge that allows us to speak properly. Now, please do your best to explain your complete meaning to us, and we will try our best to understand you.
ATHENIAN: There is some difficulty in understanding my meaning, but not a very great one, nor will any great length of time be required. And of this I am myself a proof; for I did not know these things long ago, nor in the days of my youth, and yet I can explain them to you in a brief space of time; whereas if they had been difficult I could certainly never have explained them all, old as I am, to old men like yourselves.
ATHENIAN: There’s a bit of difficulty in grasping what I mean, but it’s not too much, and it won’t take long to understand. I’m proof of that myself; I didn’t know these things not too long ago, nor did I understand them in my youth, and yet I can explain them to you in a short amount of time. If they had been really tough, I definitely wouldn’t be able to explain everything to older men like you.
CLEINIAS: True; but what is this study which you describe as wonderful and fitting for youth to learn, but of which we are ignorant? Try and explain the nature of it to us as clearly as you can.
CLEINIAS: That's true; but what is this amazing study that you say is suitable for young people to learn, but that we don't know anything about? Please explain what it involves as clearly as you can.
ATHENIAN: I will. For, O my good friends, that other doctrine about the wandering of the sun and the moon and the other stars is not the truth, but the very reverse of the truth. Each of them moves in the same path—not in many paths, but in one only, which is circular, and the varieties are only apparent. Nor are we right in supposing that the swiftest of them is the slowest, nor conversely, that the slowest is the quickest. And if what I say is true, only just imagine that we had a similar notion about horses running at Olympia, or about men who ran in the long course, and that we addressed the swiftest as the slowest and the slowest as the swiftest, and sang the praises of the vanquished as though he were the victor—in that case our praises would not be true, nor very agreeable to the runners, though they be but men; and now, to commit the same error about the Gods which would have been ludicrous and erroneous in the case of men—is not that ludicrous and erroneous?
ATHENIAN: I will. For, oh my good friends, that other idea about the wandering of the sun, moon, and the other stars isn’t the truth at all but is actually the opposite. Each of them moves along the same path—not in many paths, but in just one, which is circular, and the differences we see are only superficial. We are also wrong in thinking that the fastest among them is the slowest, or that the slowest is the fastest. If what I'm saying is true, just picture if we had a similar belief about horses racing at Olympia or about people running in the long race, where we called the fastest the slowest and the slowest the fastest, praising the loser as if he were the winner—then our praises wouldn’t be true or very pleasing to the runners, even if they are just people. Now, to make the same mistake about the Gods, which would be ridiculous and wrong in the case of humans—isn’t that also ridiculous and wrong?
CLEINIAS: Worse than ludicrous, I should say.
CLEINIAS: I’d say it’s worse than ridiculous.
ATHENIAN: At all events, the Gods cannot like us to be spreading a false report of them.
ATHENIAN: In any case, the Gods can’t be happy about us spreading false rumors about them.
CLEINIAS: Most true, if such is the fact.
CLEINIAS: That's definitely true, if that's the case.
ATHENIAN: And if we can show that such is really the fact, then all these matters ought to be learned so far as is necessary for the avoidance of impiety; but if we cannot, they may be let alone, and let this be our decision.
ATHENIAN: And if we can prove that’s really the case, then we should learn everything necessary to avoid being disrespectful. But if we can’t, then we can just leave it alone, and let this be our decision.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Enough of laws relating to education and learning. But hunting and similar pursuits in like manner claim our attention. For the legislator appears to have a duty imposed upon him which goes beyond mere legislation. There is something over and above law which lies in a region between admonition and law, and has several times occurred to us in the course of discussion; for example, in the education of very young children there were things, as we maintain, which are not to be defined, and to regard them as matters of positive law is a great absurdity. Now, our laws and the whole constitution of our state having been thus delineated, the praise of the virtuous citizen is not complete when he is described as the person who serves the laws best and obeys them most, but the higher form of praise is that which describes him as the good citizen who passes through life undefiled and is obedient to the words of the legislator, both when he is giving laws and when he assigns praise and blame. This is the truest word that can be spoken in praise of a citizen; and the true legislator ought not only to write his laws, but also to interweave with them all such things as seem to him honourable and dishonourable. And the perfect citizen ought to seek to strengthen these no less than the principles of law which are sanctioned by punishments. I will adduce an example which will clear up my meaning, and will be a sort of witness to my words. Hunting is of wide extent, and has a name under which many things are included, for there is a hunting of creatures in the water, and of creatures in the air, and there is a great deal of hunting of land animals of all kinds, and not of wild beasts only. The hunting after man is also worthy of consideration; there is the hunting after him in war, and there is often a hunting after him in the way of friendship, which is praised and also blamed; and there is thieving, and the hunting which is practised by robbers, and that of armies against armies. Now the legislator, in laying down laws about hunting, can neither abstain from noting these things, nor can he make threatening ordinances which will assign rules and penalties about all of them. What is he to do? He will have to praise and blame hunting with a view to the exercise and pursuits of youth. And, on the other hand, the young man must listen obediently; neither pleasure nor pain should hinder him, and he should regard as his standard of action the praises and injunctions of the legislator rather than the punishments which he imposes by law. This being premised, there will follow next in order moderate praise and censure of hunting; the praise being assigned to that kind which will make the souls of young men better, and the censure to that which has the opposite effect. And now let us address young men in the form of a prayer for their welfare: O friends, we will say to them, may no desire or love of hunting in the sea, or of angling or of catching the creatures in the waters, ever take possession of you, either when you are awake or when you are asleep, by hook or with weels, which latter is a very lazy contrivance; and let not any desire of catching men and of piracy by sea enter into your souls and make you cruel and lawless hunters. And as to the desire of thieving in town or country, may it never enter into your most passing thoughts; nor let the insidious fancy of catching birds, which is hardly worthy of freemen, come into the head of any youth. There remains therefore for our athletes only the hunting and catching of land animals, of which the one sort is called hunting by night, in which the hunters sleep in turn and are lazy; this is not to be commended any more than that which has intervals of rest, in which the wild strength of beasts is subdued by nets and snares, and not by the victory of a laborious spirit. Thus, only the best kind of hunting is allowed at all—that of quadrupeds, which is carried on with horses and dogs and men's own persons, and they get the victory over the animals by running them down and striking them and hurling at them, those who have a care of godlike manhood taking them with their own hands. The praise and blame which is assigned to all these things has now been declared; and let the law be as follows: Let no one hinder these who verily are sacred hunters from following the chase wherever and whithersoever they will; but the hunter by night, who trusts to his nets and gins, shall not be allowed to hunt anywhere. The fowler in the mountains and waste places shall be permitted, but on cultivated ground and on consecrated wilds he shall not be permitted; and any one who meets him may stop him. As to the hunter in waters, he may hunt anywhere except in harbours or sacred streams or marshes or pools, provided only that he do not pollute the water with poisonous juices. And now we may say that all our enactments about education are complete.
ATHENIAN: Let's move on from laws about education and learning to discuss hunting and similar activities. The legislator has a responsibility that goes beyond just creating laws. There's something that sits between advice and law, and we've touched on it before in our discussions; for instance, when it comes to educating young children, there are aspects that can’t be precisely defined, and to treat them as straightforward legal matters is quite ridiculous. Now that we’ve outlined our laws and the structure of our state, the praise for a virtuous citizen shouldn’t just focus on how well they follow the laws; the higher praise is for the good citizen who lives a pure life and listens to the legislator's guidance, both in making laws and in assigning praise and blame. This is the truest commendation for a citizen; a true legislator should not only craft laws but also weave in what he sees as honorable and dishonorable. A perfect citizen should strive to uphold these values just as much as the legal principles backed by punishments. Let me provide an example to clarify my point, which will support my argument. Hunting is broad and encompasses many activities—it includes hunting aquatic creatures, avian species, and a variety of land animals, not just wild beasts. The pursuit of humans is also noteworthy; this includes hunting them in war as well as chasing them in friendship, which can receive both praise and blame; there's stealing, and the hunting practiced by thieves, as well as armies clashing. When the legislator sets laws about hunting, he must acknowledge all these different practices; he can't just issue strict rules and penalties about every single one. What should he do? He must offer praise and criticism of hunting concerning the activities and interests of the youth. And likewise, young people should listen with respect; their actions should not be swayed by pleasure or pain, and they should use the legislator's praises and instructions as their guide over the punishments of the law. With this in mind, we can now move on to a moderate praise and criticism of hunting; the praise will go to pursuits that enhance the character of young people, while the criticism will be for those that lead to the opposite outcome. Now, let's address young men with a prayer for their well-being: O friends, we say to you, may no desire or love of sea hunting, fishing, or capturing aquatic creatures ever take hold of you, whether you are awake or asleep, through hooks or through nets, which are a lazy method; and may you not feel any inclination towards capturing people or engaging in piracy at sea, turning you into cruel and lawless hunters. Regarding thieving in towns or countryside, may such thoughts never even cross your mind; nor should the sneaky urge to catch birds, hardly fitting for free individuals, enter any young person's head. Therefore, athletes are left with hunting and catching land animals, which includes nighttime hunting where hunters take turns sleeping and being lazy; this should not be encouraged, just like hunting that involves resting while wild beasts are trapped by nets and snares instead of being overcome through hard effort. Thus, only the finest kind of hunting is acceptable—the hunting of four-legged creatures, done with horses, dogs, and the hunters themselves, who achieve victory over the animals by chasing them down, striking them, and throwing at them, with those committed to noble manhood capturing them with their own hands. The praise and blame concerning all these activities have now been articulated; thus, let the law state: No one should prevent these truly dedicated hunters from pursuing their chase anywhere they desire; however, night hunters, who rely on nets and traps, shall not be permitted to hunt at all. The bird catcher in the mountains and wild areas may be allowed, but not on cultivated land or sacred ground, and anyone who encounters him can stop him. As for the water hunter, he may hunt anywhere except in harbors, sacred streams, marshes, or pools, provided he does not contaminate the water with toxic substances. And now we can say that our regulations regarding education are complete.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
BOOK VIII.
ATHENIAN: Next, with the help of the Delphian oracle, we have to institute festivals and make laws about them, and to determine what sacrifices will be for the good of the city, and to what Gods they shall be offered; but when they shall be offered, and how often, may be partly regulated by us.
ATHENIAN: Next, with the help of the Delphian oracle, we need to set up festivals and create rules for them, decide which sacrifices will benefit the city, and to which gods they should be offered. However, when these sacrifices will take place and how often can be partially decided by us.
CLEINIAS: The number—yes.
CLEINIAS: The number—definitely.
ATHENIAN: Then we will first determine the number; and let the whole number be 365—one for every day—so that one magistrate at least will sacrifice daily to some God or demi-god on behalf of the city, and the citizens, and their possessions. And the interpreters, and priests, and priestesses, and prophets shall meet, and, in company with the guardians of the law, ordain those things which the legislator of necessity omits; and I may remark that they are the very persons who ought to take note of what is omitted. The law will say that there are twelve feasts dedicated to the twelve Gods, after whom the several tribes are named; and that to each of them they shall sacrifice every month, and appoint choruses, and musical and gymnastic contests, assigning them so as to suit the Gods and seasons of the year. And they shall have festivals for women, distinguishing those which ought to be separated from the men's festivals, and those which ought not. Further, they shall not confuse the infernal deities and their rites with the Gods who are termed heavenly and their rites, but shall separate them, giving to Pluto his own in the twelfth month, which is sacred to him, according to the law. To such a deity warlike men should entertain no aversion, but they should honour him as being always the best friend of man. For the connexion of soul and body is no way better than the dissolution of them, as I am ready to maintain quite seriously. Moreover, those who would regulate these matters rightly should consider, that our city among existing cities has no fellow, either in respect of leisure or command of the necessaries of life, and that like an individual she ought to live happily. And those who would live happily should in the first place do no wrong to one another, and ought not themselves to be wronged by others; to attain the first is not difficult, but there is great difficulty in acquiring the power of not being wronged. No man can be perfectly secure against wrong, unless he has become perfectly good; and cities are like individuals in this, for a city if good has a life of peace, but if evil, a life of war within and without. Wherefore the citizens ought to practise war—not in time of war, but rather while they are at peace. And every city which has any sense, should take the field at least for one day in every month, and for more if the magistrates think fit, having no regard to winter cold or summer heat; and they should go out en masse, including their wives and their children, when the magistrates determine to lead forth the whole people, or in separate portions when summoned by them; and they should always provide that there should be games and sacrificial feasts, and they should have tournaments, imitating in as lively a manner as they can real battles. And they should distribute prizes of victory and valour to the competitors, passing censures and encomiums on one another according to the characters which they bear in the contests and in their whole life, honouring him who seems to be the best, and blaming him who is the opposite. And let poets celebrate the victors—not however every poet, but only one who in the first place is not less than fifty years of age; nor should he be one who, although he may have musical and poetical gifts, has never in his life done any noble or illustrious action; but those who are themselves good and also honourable in the state, creators of noble actions—let their poems be sung, even though they be not very musical. And let the judgment of them rest with the instructor of youth and the other guardians of the laws, who shall give them this privilege, and they alone shall be free to sing; but the rest of the world shall not have this liberty. Nor shall any one dare to sing a song which has not been approved by the judgment of the guardians of the laws, not even if his strain be sweeter than the songs of Thamyras and Orpheus; but only such poems as have been judged sacred and dedicated to the Gods, and such as are the works of good men, in which praise or blame has been awarded and which have been deemed to fulfil their design fairly.
ATHENIAN: First, let’s decide on the number; let’s make it 365—one for each day—so at least one magistrate will perform a sacrifice daily to some God or demi-god on behalf of the city, its citizens, and their belongings. The interpreters, priests, priestesses, and prophets will gather, along with the guardians of the law, to organize what the legislator inevitably leaves out; and I would say they are the ones who should notice what’s missing. The law will state that there are twelve feasts dedicated to the twelve Gods, after whom the various tribes are named; each month, sacrifices will be made to each of them, and they will arrange choruses and musical and athletic competitions that fit the Gods and the seasons. They will also host festivals for women, clearly differentiating those that should be separate from the men's festivals and those that should not. Furthermore, they must keep the rites for underworld deities distinct from those for the heavenly Gods and their rituals, giving Pluto his own services in the twelfth month, which is sacred to him, as required by law. Those who are warriors should have no aversion to such a deity, but rather honor him as he is always man’s best friend. The connection between the soul and body is no better than their separation, which I firmly believe. Additionally, those who manage these affairs correctly should recognize that our city is unmatched among contemporary cities, both in terms of leisure and access to life's necessities, and that, just like an individual, she should strive to live happily. For people to live happily, they must first not wrong each other and should also not allow others to wrong them; the first part is easy, but gaining the ability to avoid being wronged is quite difficult. No one can be completely safe from wrongdoing unless they have become entirely virtuous; cities are similar to individuals in this regard— a good city enjoys peace while an evil one experiences chaos both internally and externally. Therefore, citizens should prepare for war—not just in wartime, but especially in peacetime. Any sensible city should practice military drills at least once a month, more if the magistrates see fit, without worrying about winter’s chill or summer’s heat; they should march out together with their wives and children when the magistrates decide to mobilize the whole community or in smaller groups when called upon; and there should be games and sacrificial feasts, with tournaments imitating real battles as vividly as possible. They should award prizes for victory and bravery to participants, offering praise and criticism based on their conduct in the contests and in everyday life, honoring the best and reprimanding the worst. Poets should celebrate the victors—but not just any poet; only one who is at least fifty years old and who, despite having musical and poetic talents, has performed no noble or remarkable deeds should be excluded. Instead, those who are good and honorable in the community, creators of noble actions—let their poems be sung, even if they aren't the most melodious. The judgment of these poems shall rest with the youth's instructor and the other guardians of the laws, who will confer this honor, and only they will be free to sing; the rest shall not have this license. No one should dare to sing a song that hasn’t been approved by the guardians of the laws, even if their tune is sweeter than those of Thamyras and Orpheus; only poems deemed sacred and dedicated to the Gods and composed by good individuals, in which praise or criticism has been fairly given, will be allowed.
The regulations about war, and about liberty of speech in poetry, ought to apply equally to men and women. The legislator may be supposed to argue the question in his own mind: Who are my citizens for whom I have set in order the city? Are they not competitors in the greatest of all contests, and have they not innumerable rivals? To be sure, will be the natural reply. Well, but if we were training boxers, or pancratiasts, or any other sort of athletes, would they never meet until the hour of contest arrived; and should we do nothing to prepare ourselves previously by daily practice? Surely, if we were boxers, we should have been learning to fight for many days before, and exercising ourselves in imitating all those blows and wards which we were intending to use in the hour of conflict; and in order that we might come as near to reality as possible, instead of cestuses we should put on boxing-gloves, that the blows and the wards might be practised by us to the utmost of our power. And if there were a lack of competitors, the ridicule of fools would not deter us from hanging up a lifeless image and practising at that. Or if we had no adversary at all, animate or inanimate, should we not venture in the dearth of antagonists to spar by ourselves? In what other manner could we ever study the art of self-defence?
The rules about war and the freedom of speech in poetry should apply equally to both men and women. The lawmaker might think to themselves: Who are my citizens for whom I've organized the city? Aren't they all competitors in the greatest contest of all, and do they not have countless rivals? Of course, the answer is yes. But if we were training boxers, or fighters, or any other type of athlete, would they just wait until the competition starts to meet each other? Shouldn't we prepare ourselves with daily practice beforehand? Surely, if we were boxers, we would have been training for many days, practicing all the techniques and defenses we plan to use in the match. To get as close to reality as possible, we would wear boxing gloves instead of heavy wraps, so we could practice our punches and defenses to the best of our ability. And if there were a shortage of competitors, the mockery of fools wouldn't stop us from hanging up a lifeless dummy to practice on. Or if we had no opponent at all, animated or not, wouldn't we still take the opportunity to spar by ourselves despite the lack of adversaries? How else could we ever learn the art of self-defense?
CLEINIAS: The way which you mention, Stranger, would be the only way.
CLEINIAS: The way you're talking about, Stranger, would be the only way.
ATHENIAN: And shall the warriors of our city, who are destined when occasion calls to enter the greatest of all contests, and to fight for their lives, and their children, and their property, and the whole city, be worse prepared than boxers? And will the legislator, because he is afraid that their practising with one another may appear to some ridiculous, abstain from commanding them to go out and fight; will he not ordain that soldiers shall perform lesser exercises without arms every day, making dancing and all gymnastic tend to this end; and also will he not require that they shall practise some gymnastic exercises, greater as well as lesser, as often as every month; and that they shall have contests one with another in every part of the country, seizing upon posts and lying in ambush, and imitating in every respect the reality of war; fighting with boxing-gloves and hurling javelins, and using weapons somewhat dangerous, and as nearly as possible like the true ones, in order that the sport may not be altogether without fear, but may have terrors and to a certain degree show the man who has and who has not courage; and that the honour and dishonour which are assigned to them respectively, may prepare the whole city for the true conflict of life? If any one dies in these mimic contests, the homicide is involuntary, and we will make the slayer, when he has been purified according to law, to be pure of blood, considering that if a few men should die, others as good as they will be born; but that if fear is dead, then the citizens will never find a test of superior and inferior natures, which is a far greater evil to the state than the loss of a few.
ATHENIAN: Shouldn't the warriors of our city, who are destined to enter the greatest of all contests when the time arises, and fight for their lives, their children, their property, and the entire city, be just as well prepared as boxers? And will the legislator, out of fear that their training together might seem ridiculous to some, avoid commanding them to go out and fight? Shouldn't he instead order that soldiers engage in smaller exercises without weapons every day, making dance and all gymnastic activities serve this purpose? Also, will he not require them to practice some gymnastic exercises, both major and minor, as frequently as every month? Will there be contests across the country where they seize posts, lie in ambush, and simulate every aspect of real war; fighting with boxing gloves, throwing javelins, and using somewhat dangerous weapons that closely resemble real ones? This way, the sport won't be without fear, but will contain elements of danger to some degree, exposing who has courage and who doesn't. The honor and dishonor they receive will prepare the entire city for the genuine struggle of life. If anyone dies in these mock contests, the act is considered involuntary, and we will purify the one who caused it according to the law, ensuring they are free of guilt, believing that if a few individuals die, others as good as them will be born. However, if fear is eliminated, then citizens will never discover a way to test superior and inferior natures, which poses a far greater threat to the state than the loss of a few.
CLEINIAS: We are quite agreed, Stranger, that we should legislate about such things, and that the whole state should practise them.
CLEINIAS: We all agree, Stranger, that we need to create laws about these matters, and that the entire state should follow them.
ATHENIAN: And what is the reason that dances and contests of this sort hardly ever exist in states, at least not to any extent worth speaking of? Is this due to the ignorance of mankind and their legislators?
ATHENIAN: So why do dances and contests like this hardly happen in states, or at least not enough to be worth mentioning? Is it because people and their lawmakers just don't know any better?
CLEINIAS: Perhaps.
Maybe.
ATHENIAN: Certainly not, sweet Cleinias; there are two causes, which are quite enough to account for the deficiency.
ATHENIAN: Of course not, dear Cleinias; there are two reasons that are more than enough to explain the shortfall.
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: One cause is the love of wealth, which wholly absorbs men, and never for a moment allows them to think of anything but their own private possessions; on this the soul of every citizen hangs suspended, and can attend to nothing but his daily gain; mankind are ready to learn any branch of knowledge, and to follow any pursuit which tends to this end, and they laugh at every other: that is one reason why a city will not be in earnest about such contests or any other good and honourable pursuit. But from an insatiable love of gold and silver, every man will stoop to any art or contrivance, seemly or unseemly, in the hope of becoming rich; and will make no objection to performing any action, holy, or unholy and utterly base; if only like a beast he have the power of eating and drinking all kinds of things, and procuring for himself in every sort of way the gratification of his lusts.
ATHENIAN: One reason is the love of wealth, which completely consumes people and never lets them think of anything except their own possessions; the fate of every citizen hangs on this, and they can focus on nothing but their daily profit. People are eager to learn any kind of knowledge and pursue any activity that leads to this goal, laughing at everything else: that's one reason why a city won't take serious interest in competitions or any other good and honorable endeavors. Driven by an insatiable desire for money, people are willing to resort to any means, respectable or not, hoping to get rich; they will not hesitate to do any action, whether sacred or profane and utterly shameful, as long as they can indulge in eating and drinking whatever they want, satisfying their desires in every possible way.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Let this, then, be deemed one of the causes which prevent states from pursuing in an efficient manner the art of war, or any other noble aim, but makes the orderly and temperate part of mankind into merchants, and captains of ships, and servants, and converts the valiant sort into thieves and burglars, and robbers of temples, and violent, tyrannical persons; many of whom are not without ability, but they are unfortunate.
ATHENIAN: Let this be considered one of the reasons why states are unable to effectively pursue the art of war or any other noble goal. It turns the orderly and moderate people into merchants, ship captains, and servants, while transforming the brave individuals into thieves, burglars, temple robbers, and violent, tyrannical figures. Many of these individuals are not lacking in ability; they are simply unfortunate.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: Must not they be truly unfortunate whose souls are compelled to pass through life always hungering?
ATHENIAN: Aren't those who have to go through life constantly craving truly unfortunate?
CLEINIAS: Then that is one cause, Stranger; but you spoke of another.
CLEINIAS: So that’s one reason, Stranger; but you mentioned another.
ATHENIAN: Thank you for reminding me.
ATHENIAN: Thanks for the heads-up.
CLEINIAS: The insatiable lifelong love of wealth, as you were saying, is one cause which absorbs mankind, and prevents them from rightly practising the arts of war: Granted; and now tell me, what is the other?
CLEINIAS: The never-ending desire for wealth, as you mentioned, is one reason that consumes people and keeps them from truly mastering the arts of war. That’s understandable; now tell me, what’s the other reason?
ATHENIAN: Do you imagine that I delay because I am in a perplexity?
ATHENIAN: Do you think I'm hesitating because I'm confused?
CLEINIAS: No; but we think that you are too severe upon the money-loving temper, of which you seem in the present discussion to have a peculiar dislike.
CLEINIAS: No; but we believe you are being too harsh on the money-loving nature, which you seem to especially dislike in this discussion.
ATHENIAN: That is a very fair rebuke, Cleinias; and I will now proceed to the second cause.
ATHENIAN: That's a very fair criticism, Cleinias; and I will now move on to the second reason.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
CLEINIAS: Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: I say that governments are a cause—democracy, oligarchy, tyranny, concerning which I have often spoken in the previous discourse; or rather governments they are not, for none of them exercises a voluntary rule over voluntary subjects; but they may be truly called states of discord, in which while the government is voluntary, the subjects always obey against their will, and have to be coerced; and the ruler fears the subject, and will not, if he can help, allow him to become either noble, or rich, or strong, or valiant, or warlike at all. These two are the chief causes of almost all evils, and of the evils of which I have been speaking they are notably the causes. But our state has escaped both of them; for her citizens have the greatest leisure, and they are not subject to one another, and will, I think, be made by these laws the reverse of lovers of money. Such a constitution may be reasonably supposed to be the only one existing which will accept the education which we have described, and the martial pastimes which have been perfected according to our idea.
ATHENIAN: I argue that governments are a problem—democracy, oligarchy, tyranny, which I have discussed before; or rather, they're not really governments, since none of them truly rule willingly over willing subjects. Instead, they can be described as states of conflict, where the government may be voluntary, but the people always obey against their will and have to be forced into it. The ruler fears the subject and will do everything possible to prevent them from becoming noble, rich, strong, brave, or warlike. These two factors are the main causes of nearly all troubles, and notably the troubles I've been talking about. However, our state has managed to avoid both; its citizens enjoy the greatest freedom, and they don’t dominate one another, and I believe these laws will make them the opposite of money-obsessed. Such a political system might be seen as the only one capable of embracing the education we’ve outlined and the martial activities we’ve ideally developed.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then next we must remember, about all gymnastic contests, that only the warlike sort of them are to be practised and to have prizes of victory; and those which are not military are to be given up. The military sort had better be completely described and established by law; and first, let us speak of running and swiftness.
ATHENIAN: Next, we need to keep in mind that among all gymnastic contests, only the military types should be practiced and rewarded with prizes for victory; the non-military ones should be abandoned. The military contests should be fully defined and established by law; first, let’s talk about running and speed.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Certainly the most military of all qualities is general activity of body, whether of foot or hand. For escaping or for capturing an enemy, quickness of foot is required; but hand-to-hand conflict and combat need vigour and strength.
ATHENIAN: Definitely, the most important military quality is overall physical activity, whether it involves the feet or hands. To escape from or capture an enemy, you need speed in your feet; however, close combat and fighting require energy and strength.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Neither of them can attain their greatest efficiency without arms.
ATHENIAN: Neither of them can reach their full potential without weapons.
CLEINIAS: How can they?
CLEINIAS: How can they do that?
ATHENIAN: Then our herald, in accordance with the prevailing practice, will first summon the runner—he will appear armed, for to an unarmed competitor we will not give a prize. And he shall enter first who is to run the single course bearing arms; next, he who is to run the double course; third, he who is to run the horse-course; and fourthly, he who is to run the long course; the fifth whom we start, shall be the first sent forth in heavy armour, and shall run a course of sixty stadia to some temple of Ares—and we will send forth another, whom we will style the more heavily armed, to run over smoother ground. There remains the archer; and he shall run in the full equipments of an archer a distance of 100 stadia over mountains, and across every sort of country, to a temple of Apollo and Artemis; this shall be the order of the contest, and we will wait for them until they return, and will give a prize to the conqueror in each.
ATHENIAN: Our herald will first call up the runner, as is the usual practice. He will come prepared with armor, as we won’t give a prize to someone who is unarmed. The first to enter will be the one who runs the single course with arms; next will be the one running the double course; third will be the one for the horse-course; and fourth will be the one for the long course. The fifth runner will be the first to start in heavy armor and will cover a distance of sixty stadia to a temple of Ares. We will also send out another contestant, whom we will refer to as the more heavily armed, to run on smoother terrain. Then there’s the archer, who will run in full archer gear for 100 stadia over mountains and various types of land to a temple of Apollo and Artemis. This will be the order of the contest, and we will wait for their return, awarding a prize to the winner in each category.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Let us suppose that there are three kinds of contests—one of boys, another of beardless youths, and a third of men. For the youths we will fix the length of the contest at two-thirds, and for the boys at half of the entire course, whether they contend as archers or as heavy-armed. Touching the women, let the girls who are not grown up compete naked in the stadium and the double course, and the horse-course and the long course, and let them run on the race-ground itself; those who are thirteen years of age and upwards until their marriage shall continue to share in contests if they are not more than twenty, and shall be compelled to run up to eighteen; and they shall descend into the arena in suitable dresses. Let these be the regulations about contests in running both for men and women.
ATHENIAN: Let's imagine there are three types of competitions—one for boys, another for young men, and a third for grown men. For the young men, we'll set the contest length at two-thirds, and for the boys at half of the full distance, whether they compete as archers or in heavy armor. As for the women, let the girls who are not yet grown compete in the stadium and the double course, and the horse course and the long course, running on the track itself; those who are thirteen and older can continue to participate until they marry, as long as they are under twenty, and they must compete up to the age of eighteen; they should enter the arena in appropriate attire. These should be the rules for running competitions for both men and women.
Respecting contests of strength, instead of wrestling and similar contests of the heavier sort, we will institute conflicts in armour of one against one, and two against two, and so on up to ten against ten. As to what a man ought not to suffer or do, and to what extent, in order to gain the victory—as in wrestling, the masters of the art have laid down what is fair and what is not fair, so in fighting in armour—we ought to call in skilful persons, who shall judge for us and be our assessors in the work of legislation; they shall say who deserves to be victor in combats of this sort, and what he is not to do or have done to him, and in like manner what rule determines who is defeated; and let these ordinances apply to women until they are married as well as to men. The pancration shall have a counterpart in a combat of the light-armed; they shall contend with bows and with light shields and with javelins and in the throwing of stones by slings and by hand: and laws shall be made about it, and rewards and prizes given to him who best fulfils the ordinances of the law.
In terms of strength contests, instead of traditional wrestling and similar heavyweight matches, we will set up battles in armor where it's one-on-one, two-on-two, and so on, all the way up to ten-on-ten. Regarding what a person should or shouldn't endure or do to achieve victory—just like in wrestling, where experts have defined what's fair and unfair—similarly, we should enlist skilled individuals to judge and advise us in our legislative efforts; they will determine who should be deemed the winner in these fights and what actions are off-limits for them or should be avoided by others. The same rules will apply to women until they are married as they do to men. The pankration will have a counterpart in light-armed combat, where participants will engage using bows, light shields, javelins, and by throwing stones with slings or by hand. Laws will be established around this, and rewards will be given to those who best adhere to the legal guidelines.
Next in order we shall have to legislate about the horse contests. Now we do not need many horses, for they cannot be of much use in a country like Crete, and hence we naturally do not take great pains about the rearing of them or about horse races. There is no one who keeps a chariot among us, and any rivalry in such matters would be altogether out of place; there would be no sense nor any shadow of sense in instituting contests which are not after the manner of our country. And therefore we give our prizes for single horses—for colts who have not yet cast their teeth, and for those who are intermediate, and for the full-grown horses themselves; and thus our equestrian games will accord with the nature of the country. Let them have conflict and rivalry in these matters in accordance with the law, and let the colonels and generals of horse decide together about all courses and about the armed competitors in them. But we have nothing to say to the unarmed either in gymnastic exercises or in these contests. On the other hand, the Cretan bowman or javelin-man who fights in armour on horseback is useful, and therefore we may as well place a competition of this sort among our amusements. Women are not to be forced to compete by laws and ordinances; but if from previous training they have acquired the habit and are strong enough and like to take part, let them do so, girls as well as boys, and no blame to them.
Next, we need to make some laws about horse contests. However, we don’t require many horses since they aren’t very useful in a place like Crete, so we don’t pay much attention to raising them or holding horse races. Nobody around here owns a chariot, and any competition in that area would be completely inappropriate; it wouldn’t make sense at all to set up contests that don’t fit our culture. So, we will reward individual horses—both colts that haven’t lost their baby teeth and fully grown horses; this way, our equestrian events will match the character of our land. Let there be competition and rivalry in these events according to the law, and let the horse leaders and commanders work together to decide on the events and the armed participants. However, we don’t have any rules for unarmed participants in gymnastics or these contests. On the other hand, a Cretan archer or javelin thrower who fights in armor on horseback is valuable, so we might as well include a competition like this in our entertainment. Women aren’t obligated to compete by laws, but if they’ve had previous training, are strong enough, and want to participate, they should be allowed to, just like boys, and there’s no shame in that.
Thus the competition in gymnastic and the mode of learning it have been described; and we have spoken also of the toils of the contest, and of daily exercises under the superintendence of masters. Likewise, what relates to music has been, for the most part, completed. But as to rhapsodes and the like, and the contests of choruses which are to perform at feasts, all this shall be arranged when the months and days and years have been appointed for Gods and demi-gods, whether every third year, or again every fifth year, or in whatever way or manner the Gods may put into men's minds the distribution and order of them. At the same time, we may expect that the musical contests will be celebrated in their turn by the command of the judges and the director of education and the guardians of the law meeting together for this purpose, and themselves becoming legislators of the times and nature and conditions of the choral contests and of dancing in general. What they ought severally to be in language and song, and in the admixture of harmony with rhythm and the dance, has been often declared by the original legislator; and his successors ought to follow him, making the games and sacrifices duly to correspond at fitting times, and appointing public festivals. It is not difficult to determine how these and the like matters may have a regular order; nor, again, will the alteration of them do any great good or harm to the state. There is, however, another matter of great importance and difficulty, concerning which God should legislate, if there were any possibility of obtaining from Him an ordinance about it. But seeing that divine aid is not to be had, there appears to be a need of some bold man who specially honours plainness of speech, and will say outright what he thinks best for the city and citizens—ordaining what is good and convenient for the whole state amid the corruptions of human souls, opposing the mightiest lusts, and having no man his helper but himself standing alone and following reason only.
The competition in gymnastics and the way it's taught have been laid out, and we've also talked about the challenges of the contests and daily training under the guidance of instructors. Similarly, most of what relates to music has been covered. However, regarding rhapsodes and similar performers, along with the choral contests that take place at feasts, this will be organized once the months, days, and years have been designated for the gods and demigods—whether every third year, every fifth year, or in whatever way the gods inspire people to determine their schedule. At the same time, we can expect that musical competitions will be held when the judges, the education directors, and the law guardians convene for this purpose, acting as lawmakers for the timing, nature, and conditions of the choral contests and dance in general. It has often been stated what these should be in terms of language, song, and the blend of harmony with rhythm and dance. The original lawmaker has declared this, and his successors should follow his lead, ensuring that the games and sacrifices align properly with the right occasions and establishing public festivals. It’s not difficult to see how these matters can have an orderly arrangement; also, changing them wouldn’t bring significant benefit or harm to the state. However, there is another matter of great importance and complexity where divine guidance would be needed, if it were possible to receive such a decree. But since we cannot rely on divine help, it seems there’s a need for a brave individual who values straightforwardness and will boldly express what he believes is best for the city and its citizens—designing what is good and suitable for the entire state amidst the moral decay of humanity, resisting the strongest desires, and depending only on his own reasoning as he stands alone.
CLEINIAS: What is this, Stranger, that you are saying? For we do not as yet understand your meaning.
CLEINIAS: What are you saying, Stranger? We still don’t understand what you mean.
ATHENIAN: Very likely; I will endeavour to explain myself more clearly. When I came to the subject of education, I beheld young men and maidens holding friendly intercourse with one another. And there naturally arose in my mind a sort of apprehension—I could not help thinking how one is to deal with a city in which youths and maidens are well nurtured, and have nothing to do, and are not undergoing the excessive and servile toils which extinguish wantonness, and whose only cares during their whole life are sacrifices and festivals and dances. How, in such a state as this, will they abstain from desires which thrust many a man and woman into perdition; and from which reason, assuming the functions of law, commands them to abstain? The ordinances already made may possibly get the better of most of these desires; the prohibition of excessive wealth is a very considerable gain in the direction of temperance, and the whole education of our youth imposes a law of moderation on them; moreover, the eye of the rulers is required always to watch over the young, and never to lose sight of them; and these provisions do, as far as human means can effect anything, exercise a regulating influence upon the desires in general. But how can we take precautions against the unnatural loves of either sex, from which innumerable evils have come upon individuals and cities? How shall we devise a remedy and way of escape out of so great a danger? Truly, Cleinias, here is a difficulty. In many ways Crete and Lacedaemon furnish a great help to those who make peculiar laws; but in the matter of love, as we are alone, I must confess that they are quite against us. For if any one following nature should lay down the law which existed before the days of Laius, and denounce these lusts as contrary to nature, adducing the animals as a proof that such unions were monstrous, he might prove his point, but he would be wholly at variance with the custom of your states. Further, they are repugnant to a principle which we say that a legislator should always observe; for we are always enquiring which of our enactments tends to virtue and which not. And suppose we grant that these loves are accounted by law to the honourable, or at least not disgraceful, in what degree will they contribute to virtue? Will such passions implant in the soul of him who is seduced the habit of courage, or in the soul of the seducer the principle of temperance? Who will ever believe this? or rather, who will not blame the effeminacy of him who yields to pleasures and is unable to hold out against them? Will not all men censure as womanly him who imitates the woman? And who would ever think of establishing such a practice by law? certainly no one who had in his mind the image of true law. How can we prove that what I am saying is true? He who would rightly consider these matters must see the nature of friendship and desire, and of these so-called loves, for they are of two kinds, and out of the two arises a third kind, having the same name; and this similarity of name causes all the difficulty and obscurity.
ATHENIAN: Very likely; I will try to explain myself more clearly. When I looked into the topic of education, I saw young men and women interacting with each other in a friendly way. Naturally, this made me feel a sort of concern—I couldn’t help but wonder how to manage a city where young people are well cared for, have nothing to do, and aren’t engaged in the harsh, menial tasks that quench their desires. Their only preoccupations throughout their lives are sacrifices, festivals, and dances. In a situation like this, how will they refrain from desires that lead many men and women into ruin, which reason, acting as law, tells them to avoid? The laws already in place might manage to curb most of these desires; the ban on excessive wealth is a significant step toward moderation, and the entire education of our youth promotes a lifestyle of restraint; furthermore, the rulers must always keep a watchful eye on the young, ensuring they are never out of sight. These measures do, as much as human efforts can, exert some control over desires in general. But how can we protect against the unnatural attractions between the sexes, which have caused countless troubles for individuals and cities? How can we find a solution and escape such great danger? Truly, Cleinias, this is a challenge. In many ways, Crete and Lacedaemon greatly assist those creating specific laws; however, when it comes to love, being on our own, I must admit they don’t help us at all. For if someone, following nature, were to enforce the laws that existed before Laius’s time and label these desires as unnatural, using animals as evidence that such unions are monstrous, they might make their case, but they would be completely at odds with the customs in your states. Moreover, these ideas clash with a principle we say every legislator should follow; we always ask which of our laws promote virtue and which do not. And suppose we accept that these desires are considered by law to be honorable, or at least not shameful, how much do they contribute to virtue? Will such passions instill courage in the one being seduced or self-control in the one doing the seducing? Who would ever believe that? Or rather, who wouldn’t criticize the weakness of someone who gives in to pleasure and can't resist? Won't everyone see as unmanly someone who mimics a woman? And who would possibly think of establishing such a practice by law? Certainly no one who has a genuine sense of true law. How can we prove that what I’m saying is correct? Anyone who wants to properly understand these matters must examine the nature of friendship and desire, along with these so-called loves, as they are of two types, and from those two arises a third type, sharing the same name; and this similarity of name creates all the difficulty and confusion.
CLEINIAS: How is that?
CLEINIAS: What's that about?
ATHENIAN: Dear is the like in virtue to the like, and the equal to the equal; dear also, though unlike, is he who has abundance to him who is in want. And when either of these friendships becomes excessive, we term the excess love.
ATHENIAN: Like attracts like in virtue, and equals find each other dear; also, someone who has plenty is dear to someone in need, even if they are different. But when any of these friendships goes too far, we call that excess love.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: The friendship which arises from contraries is horrible and coarse, and has often no tie of communion; but that which arises from likeness is gentle, and has a tie of communion which lasts through life. As to the mixed sort which is made up of them both, there is, first of all, a difficulty in determining what he who is possessed by this third love desires; moreover, he is drawn different ways, and is in doubt between the two principles; the one exhorting him to enjoy the beauty of youth, and the other forbidding him. For the one is a lover of the body, and hungers after beauty, like ripe fruit, and would fain satisfy himself without any regard to the character of the beloved; the other holds the desire of the body to be a secondary matter, and looking rather than loving and with his soul desiring the soul of the other in a becoming manner, regards the satisfaction of the bodily love as wantonness; he reverences and respects temperance and courage and magnanimity and wisdom, and wishes to live chastely with the chaste object of his affection. Now the sort of love which is made up of the other two is that which we have described as the third. Seeing then that there are these three sorts of love, ought the law to prohibit and forbid them all to exist among us? Is it not rather clear that we should wish to have in the state the love which is of virtue and which desires the beloved youth to be the best possible; and the other two, if possible, we should hinder? What do you say, friend Megillus?
ATHENIAN: The friendship that comes from differences is terrible and rough, and often lacks any real connection; but the friendship that comes from similarities is kind and has a bond that lasts a lifetime. As for the mixed kind that combines both, there’s a challenge in figuring out what someone caught in this third type of love truly wants; they are pulled in different directions and feel torn between the two influences—one urging them to enjoy the beauty of youth, and the other warning against it. One type loves the body and craves beauty like ripe fruit, wanting to satisfy himself without regard for the beloved’s character; the other views physical desire as secondary. This person looks to connect on a deeper level, seeking the soul of the beloved in a respectful way, seeing raw physical desire as merely indulgent. They value temperance, courage, greatness, and wisdom, wishing to live a pure life with their pure love. Now, the love that results from these two is what we’ve called the third type. Given that there are these three kinds of love, should the law ban all of them from our society? Isn’t it clear that we should encourage the love grounded in virtue, which aims for the beloved youth to be as great as possible, while trying to limit the other two, if we can? What do you think, my friend Megillus?
MEGILLUS: I think, Stranger, that you are perfectly right in what you have been now saying.
MEGILLUS: I believe, Stranger, that you are absolutely right in what you've just said.
Athenian: I knew well, my friend, that I should obtain your assent, which I accept, and therefore have no need to analyze your custom any further. Cleinias shall be prevailed upon to give me his assent at some other time. Enough of this; and now let us proceed to the laws.
Athenian: I knew, my friend, that I would get your agreement, which I appreciate, so I don’t need to go into your customs any more. I’ll convince Cleinias to agree at another time. That’s enough of this; now let’s move on to the laws.
MEGILLUS: Very good.
MEGILLUS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Upon reflection I see a way of imposing the law, which, in one respect, is easy, but, in another, is of the utmost difficulty.
ATHENIAN: Looking back, I see a way to enforce the law that is, in some ways, simple, but in others, incredibly challenging.
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: We are all aware that most men, in spite of their lawless natures, are very strictly and precisely restrained from intercourse with the fair, and this is not at all against their will, but entirely with their will.
ATHENIAN: We all know that most men, despite their unruly natures, are very strictly and precisely kept from interacting with women, and this is not against their wishes at all, but completely in line with their desires.
MEGILLUS: When do you mean?
MEGILLUS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: When any one has a brother or sister who is fair; and about a son or daughter the same unwritten law holds, and is a most perfect safeguard, so that no open or secret connexion ever takes place between them. Nor does the thought of such a thing ever enter at all into the minds of most of them.
ATHENIAN: When someone has a brother or sister who is attractive; and the same unspoken rule applies to a son or daughter, providing the best protection to ensure that no open or secret relationship ever develops between them. Most of them never even think about such a thing at all.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Does not a little word extinguish all pleasures of that sort?
ATHENIAN: Doesn't a simple word ruin all those kinds of pleasures?
MEGILLUS: What word?
What word?
ATHENIAN: The declaration that they are unholy, hated of God, and most infamous; and is not the reason of this that no one has ever said the opposite, but every one from his earliest childhood has heard men speaking in the same manner about them always and everywhere, whether in comedy or in the graver language of tragedy? When the poet introduces on the stage a Thyestes or an Oedipus, or a Macareus having secret intercourse with his sister, he represents him, when found out, ready to kill himself as the penalty of his sin.
ATHENIAN: They’re called unholy, hated by God, and utterly infamous; isn’t it because no one has ever said otherwise? Everyone has heard people talking about them this way from a very young age, whether in comedies or in the serious tone of tragedies. When the playwright brings a Thyestes or an Oedipus to the stage, or a Macareus who has an affair with his sister, he shows them ready to take their own lives when their sins are discovered.
MEGILLUS: You are very right in saying that tradition, if no breath of opposition ever assails it, has a marvellous power.
MEGILLUS: You're absolutely right that tradition, if it never faces any opposition, has an incredible power.
ATHENIAN: Am I not also right in saying that the legislator who wants to master any of the passions which master man may easily know how to subdue them? He will consecrate the tradition of their evil character among all, slaves and freemen, women and children, throughout the city: that will be the surest foundation of the law which he can make.
ATHENIAN: Am I not right in saying that a lawmaker who wants to control any of the passions that dominate people can easily learn how to manage them? He will establish a tradition that highlights their negative nature among everyone—slaves and free people, women and children—across the city: that will be the strongest basis for the laws he can create.
MEGILLUS: Yes; but will he ever succeed in making all mankind use the same language about them?
MEGILLUS: Yes, but will he ever be able to get everyone to speak the same language about them?
ATHENIAN: A good objection; but was I not just now saying that I had a way to make men use natural love and abstain from unnatural, not intentionally destroying the seeds of human increase, or sowing them in stony places, in which they will take no root; and that I would command them to abstain too from any female field of increase in which that which is sown is not likely to grow? Now if a law to this effect could only be made perpetual, and gain an authority such as already prevents intercourse of parents and children—such a law, extending to other sensual desires, and conquering them, would be the source of ten thousand blessings. For, in the first place, moderation is the appointment of nature, and deters men from all frenzy and madness of love, and from all adulteries and immoderate use of meats and drinks, and makes them good friends to their own wives. And innumerable other benefits would result if such a law could only be enforced. I can imagine some lusty youth who is standing by, and who, on hearing this enactment, declares in scurrilous terms that we are making foolish and impossible laws, and fills the world with his outcry. And therefore I said that I knew a way of enacting and perpetuating such a law, which was very easy in one respect, but in another most difficult. There is no difficulty in seeing that such a law is possible, and in what way; for, as I was saying, the ordinance once consecrated would master the soul of every man, and terrify him into obedience. But matters have now come to such a pass that even then the desired result seems as if it could not be attained, just as the continuance of an entire state in the practice of common meals is also deemed impossible. And although this latter is partly disproven by the fact of their existence among you, still even in your cities the common meals of women would be regarded as unnatural and impossible. I was thinking of the rebelliousness of the human heart when I said that the permanent establishment of these things is very difficult.
ATHENIAN: That’s a valid point, but wasn’t I just saying that I have a way to encourage people to embrace natural love and avoid unnatural desires, without destroying the potential for human procreation or planting it in places where it can’t thrive? I would also instruct them to avoid any female opportunities for procreation where what is planted is unlikely to flourish. Now, if such a law could be made permanent and gain the authority similar to that which currently prevents relationships between parents and children—such a law, extending to other desires and overcoming them, would bring about countless blessings. First of all, moderation is a natural guideline that keeps people from the frenzies and madness of love, from affairs, and from excessive indulgence in food and drink, making them good partners to their own wives. Many other benefits would arise if such a law could actually be enforced. I can picture some eager young person nearby who, upon hearing this proposal, complains loudly that we’re creating foolish and impossible laws, raising a ruckus everywhere. That’s why I mentioned that I know a way to enact and maintain such a law, which is straightforward in one sense but very challenging in another. It’s easy to understand that such a law is possible and how it could be implemented; as I was saying, once established, this law would dominate the hearts of everyone and frighten them into compliance. However, things have reached a point where even then, achieving the desired outcome seems unfeasible, just as maintaining a community focused on shared meals is considered impossible. Although this latter idea is somewhat disproven by its existence among you, even in your cities, communal meals among women would be viewed as unnatural and unlikely. I was reflecting on the rebellious nature of the human spirit when I said that establishing these changes permanently is very challenging.
MEGILLUS: Very true.
MEGILLUS: That's so true.
ATHENIAN: Shall I try and find some sort of persuasive argument which will prove to you that such enactments are possible, and not beyond human nature?
ATHENIAN: Should I try to come up with a convincing argument that shows you these laws are possible and not out of reach for humanity?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Is a man more likely to abstain from the pleasures of love and to do what he is bidden about them, when his body is in a good condition, or when he is in an ill condition, and out of training?
ATHENIAN: Is a man more likely to skip the pleasures of love and follow orders regarding them when his body is in good shape, or when he's not feeling well and out of shape?
CLEINIAS: He will be far more temperate when he is in training.
CLEINIAS: He'll be much more disciplined when he's training.
ATHENIAN: And have we not heard of Iccus of Tarentum, who, with a view to the Olympic and other contests, in his zeal for his art, and also because he was of a manly and temperate disposition, never had any connexion with a woman or a youth during the whole time of his training? And the same is said of Crison and Astylus and Diopompus and many others; and yet, Cleinias, they were far worse educated in their minds than your and my citizens, and in their bodies far more lusty.
ATHENIAN: Haven’t we heard of Iccus of Tarentum, who, in his passion for his craft and because of his strong and disciplined nature, never had any relationships with a woman or a young man during his entire training for the Olympics and other competitions? The same can be said for Crison, Astylus, Diopompus, and many others; yet, Cleinias, they were much less educated than our citizens, and their bodies were much more vigorous.
CLEINIAS: No doubt this fact has been often affirmed positively by the ancients of these athletes.
CLEINIAS: There's no doubt that this fact has often been positively confirmed by the ancients regarding these athletes.
ATHENIAN: And had they the courage to abstain from what is ordinarily deemed a pleasure for the sake of a victory in wrestling, running, and the like; and shall our young men be incapable of a similar endurance for the sake of a much nobler victory, which is the noblest of all, as from their youth upwards we will tell them, charming them, as we hope, into the belief of this by tales and sayings and songs?
ATHENIAN: Did they have the courage to give up what is usually seen as pleasure for the sake of winning at wrestling, running, and similar sports? Will our young men not be able to endure as well for a victory that is far more honorable, the greatest of all, which we will encourage them to aspire to from their youth by sharing stories, sayings, and songs to inspire them?
CLEINIAS: Of what victory are you speaking?
CLEINIAS: Which victory are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: Of the victory over pleasure, which if they win, they will live happily; or if they are conquered, the reverse of happily. And, further, may we not suppose that the fear of impiety will enable them to master that which other inferior people have mastered?
ATHENIAN: Winning over pleasure will lead to a happy life; if they lose, it will be the opposite of happiness. And, can we not assume that the fear of doing something wrong will help them control what others with lesser character have managed to control?
CLEINIAS: I dare say.
CLEINIAS: I guess so.
ATHENIAN: And since we have reached this point in our legislation, and have fallen into a difficulty by reason of the vices of mankind, I affirm that our ordinance should simply run in the following terms: Our citizens ought not to fall below the nature of birds and beasts in general, who are born in great multitudes, and yet remain until the age for procreation virgin and unmarried, but when they have reached the proper time of life are coupled, male and female, and lovingly pair together, and live the rest of their lives in holiness and innocence, abiding firmly in their original compact: surely, we will say to them, you should be better than the animals. But if they are corrupted by the other Hellenes and the common practice of barbarians, and they see with their eyes and hear with their ears of the so-called free love everywhere prevailing among them, and they themselves are not able to get the better of the temptation, the guardians of the law, exercising the functions of lawgivers, shall devise a second law against them.
ATHENIAN: Now that we've reached this point in our laws and found ourselves in a tough spot due to human flaws, I believe our rule should simply state: Our citizens shouldn’t fall below the nature of birds and beasts, which are born in large numbers yet remain virgin and unmarried until they’re ready to mate. When the time is right, they pair up, male and female, form loving bonds, and live the rest of their lives in purity and innocence, staying true to their original agreement. We must tell them they should strive to be better than animals. However, if they’re influenced by other Greeks and the common ways of outsiders, witnessing the so-called free love that’s common among them, and can't resist the temptation, then the guardians of the law, acting as lawmakers, will need to create a second law to address this.
CLEINIAS: And what law would you advise them to pass if this one failed?
CLEINIAS: So, what law would you suggest they create if this one doesn't work?
ATHENIAN: Clearly, Cleinias, the one which would naturally follow.
ATHENIAN: Obviously, Cleinias, the one that would naturally come next.
CLEINIAS: What is that?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: Our citizens should not allow pleasures to strengthen with indulgence, but should by toil divert the aliment and exuberance of them into other parts of the body; and this will happen if no immodesty be allowed in the practice of love. Then they will be ashamed of frequent intercourse, and they will find pleasure, if seldom enjoyed, to be a less imperious mistress. They should not be found out doing anything of the sort. Concealment shall be honourable, and sanctioned by custom and made law by unwritten prescription; on the other hand, to be detected shall be esteemed dishonourable, but not, to abstain wholly. In this way there will be a second legal standard of honourable and dishonourable, involving a second notion of right. Three principles will comprehend all those corrupt natures whom we call inferior to themselves, and who form but one class, and will compel them not to transgress.
ATHENIAN: Our citizens shouldn’t let pleasures grow strong through excess, but should instead channel that energy into other areas of life through hard work; and this will happen if there's no shamelessness in love. Then, they’ll feel embarrassed about getting involved too often, and they’ll find that infrequent pleasure isn’t such a demanding mistress. They shouldn’t be caught engaging in such activities. Keeping it a secret should be seen as honorable, accepted by tradition, and enforced by unwritten rules; on the other hand, being discovered should be viewed as disgraceful, but not completely avoiding it. This way, there will be a second standard of what is honorable and dishonorable, involving a different understanding of right. Three principles will encompass all those flawed individuals we regard as beneath themselves, forming a single group, and will keep them from crossing the line.
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: The principle of piety, the love of honour, and the desire of beauty, not in the body but in the soul. These are, perhaps, romantic aspirations; but they are the noblest of aspirations, if they could only be realised in all states, and, God willing, in the matter of love we may be able to enforce one of two things—either that no one shall venture to touch any person of the freeborn or noble class except his wedded wife, or sow the unconsecrated and bastard seed among harlots, or in barren and unnatural lusts; or at least we may abolish altogether the connection of men with men; and as to women, if any man has to do with any but those who come into his house duly married by sacred rites, whether they be bought or acquired in any other way, and he offends publicly in the face of all mankind, we shall be right in enacting that he be deprived of civic honours and privileges, and be deemed to be, as he truly is, a stranger. Let this law, then, whether it is one, or ought rather to be called two, be laid down respecting love in general, and the intercourse of the sexes which arises out of the desires, whether rightly or wrongly indulged.
ATHENIAN: The principle of piety, the love of honor, and the desire for beauty, not in the body but in the soul. These might be seen as romantic aspirations; however, they are the noblest aspirations, if they could only be realized in all states. God willing, in matters of love, we may be able to enforce one of two things—either that no one should dare to touch anyone of the freeborn or noble class except his married wife, or sow unholy and illegitimate seeds among prostitutes, or in barren and unnatural desires; or at the very least, we should eliminate all connections between men and men; and as for women, if any man associates with anyone other than those who have entered his house duly married by sacred rites, whether they are purchased or acquired in any other way, and he openly offends in front of everyone, we would be right to enact that he loses his civic honors and privileges and is recognized as, in truth, a stranger. So let this law, whether it should be considered one, or rather two, be established regarding love in general and the relationships between the sexes that arise from desires, whether they are indulged rightly or wrongly.
MEGILLUS: I, for my part, Stranger, would gladly receive this law. Cleinias shall speak for himself, and tell you what is his opinion.
MEGILLUS: As for me, Stranger, I would be happy to accept this law. Cleinias will speak for himself and share his thoughts.
CLEINIAS: I will, Megillus, when an opportunity offers; at present, I think that we had better allow the Stranger to proceed with his laws.
CLEINIAS: I will, Megillus, when the chance comes up; for now, I think we should let the Stranger continue with his laws.
MEGILLUS: Very good.
MEGILLUS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: We had got about as far as the establishment of the common tables, which in most places would be difficult, but in Crete no one would think of introducing any other custom. There might arise a question about the manner of them—whether they shall be such as they are here in Crete, or such as they are in Lacedaemon—or is there a third kind which may be better than either of them? The answer to this question might be easily discovered, but the discovery would do no great good, for at present they are very well ordered.
ATHENIAN: We had gotten as far as setting up the common tables, which would be tough to implement in most places, but in Crete, no one would consider introducing any other practice. There might be a debate about how they should be arranged—should they be like they are here in Crete, or like they are in Lacedaemon—or is there a third option that might be better than either? The answer to this question could be found easily, but finding it wouldn't really help, because right now, they are very well organized.
Leaving the common tables, we may therefore proceed to the means of providing food. Now, in cities the means of life are gained in many ways and from divers sources, and in general from two sources, whereas our city has only one. For most of the Hellenes obtain their food from sea and land, but our citizens from land only. And this makes the task of the legislator less difficult—half as many laws will be enough, and much less than half; and they will be of a kind better suited to free men. For he has nothing to do with laws about shipowners and merchants and retailers and inn-keepers and tax collectors and mines and moneylending and compound interest and innumerable other things—bidding good-bye to these, he gives laws to husbandmen and shepherds and bee-keepers, and to the guardians and superintendents of their implements; and he has already legislated for greater matters, as for example, respecting marriage and the procreation and nurture of children, and for education, and the establishment of offices—and now he must direct his laws to those who provide food and labour in preparing it.
Leaving the common tables, we can now move on to how to provide food. In cities, people often get their necessities in various ways from different sources, usually from two main ones, while our city relies on just one. Most Greeks obtain their food from both the sea and the land, but our citizens only get theirs from the land. This makes the legislator's job easier—fewer laws will be needed, and even much fewer than that; and those laws will be more suitable for free people. He won’t have to deal with laws about shipowners, merchants, retailers, innkeepers, tax collectors, mines, moneylending, compound interest, and countless other matters—instead, he focuses on creating laws for farmers, shepherds, beekeepers, and those who oversee their tools. He has already made laws on more significant issues, such as marriage, raising children, education, and the establishment of offices—and now he needs to direct his laws toward those responsible for food and the work involved in preparing it.
Let us first of all, then, have a class of laws which shall be called the laws of husbandmen. And let the first of them be the law of Zeus, the God of boundaries. Let no one shift the boundary line either of a fellow-citizen who is a neighbour, or, if he dwells at the extremity of the land, of any stranger who is conterminous with him, considering that this is truly 'to move the immovable,' and every one should be more willing to move the largest rock which is not a landmark, than the least stone which is the sworn mark of friendship and hatred between neighbours; for Zeus, the god of kindred, is the witness of the citizen, and Zeus, the god of strangers, of the stranger, and when aroused, terrible are the wars which they stir up. He who obeys the law will never know the fatal consequences of disobedience, but he who despises the law shall be liable to a double penalty, the first coming from the Gods, and the second from the law. For let no one wilfully remove the boundaries of his neighbour's land, and if any one does, let him who will inform the landowners, and let them bring him into court, and if he be convicted of re-dividing the land by stealth or by force, let the court determine what he ought to suffer or pay. In the next place, many small injuries done by neighbours to one another, through their multiplication, may cause a weight of enmity, and make neighbourhood a very disagreeable and bitter thing. Wherefore a man ought to be very careful of committing any offence against his neighbour, and especially of encroaching on his neighbour's land; for any man may easily do harm, but not every man can do good to another. He who encroaches on his neighbour's land, and transgresses his boundaries, shall make good the damage, and, to cure him of his impudence and also of his meanness, he shall pay a double penalty to the injured party. Of these and the like matters the wardens of the country shall take cognizance, and be the judges of them and assessors of the damage; in the more important cases, as has been already said, the whole number of them belonging to any one of the twelve divisions shall decide, and in the lesser cases the commanders: or, again, if any one pastures his cattle on his neighbour's land, they shall see the injury, and adjudge the penalty. And if any one, by decoying the bees, gets possession of another's swarms, and draws them to himself by making noises, he shall pay the damage; or if any one sets fire to his own wood and takes no care of his neighbour's property, he shall be fined at the discretion of the magistrates. And if in planting he does not leave a fair distance between his own and his neighbour's land, he shall be punished, in accordance with the enactments of many lawgivers, which we may use, not deeming it necessary that the great legislator of our state should determine all the trifles which might be decided by any body; for example, husbandmen have had of old excellent laws about waters, and there is no reason why we should propose to divert their course: He who likes may draw water from the fountain-head of the common stream on to his own land, if he do not cut off the spring which clearly belongs to some other owner; and he may take the water in any direction which he pleases, except through a house or temple or sepulchre, but he must be careful to do no harm beyond the channel. And if there be in any place a natural dryness of the earth, which keeps in the rain from heaven, and causes a deficiency in the supply of water, let him dig down on his own land as far as the clay, and if at this depth he finds no water, let him obtain water from his neighbours, as much as is required for his servants' drinking, and if his neighbours, too, are limited in their supply, let him have a fixed measure, which shall be determined by the wardens of the country. This he shall receive each day, and on these terms have a share of his neighbours' water. If there be heavy rain, and one of those on the lower ground injures some tiller of the upper ground, or some one who has a common wall, by refusing to give them an outlet for water; or, again, if some one living on the higher ground recklessly lets off the water on his lower neighbour, and they cannot come to terms with one another, let him who will call in a warden of the city, if he be in the city, or if he be in the country, a warden of the country, and let him obtain a decision determining what each of them is to do. And he who will not abide by the decision shall suffer for his malignant and morose temper, and pay a fine to the injured party, equivalent to double the value of the injury, because he was unwilling to submit to the magistrates.
Let’s first establish a set of laws known as the laws for farmers. The first of these laws should be the law of Zeus, the God of boundaries. No one should move the boundary line of a neighbor or, if they live at the edge of the land, any stranger who shares a boundary with them. Doing so is truly 'to move the immovable,' and everyone should prefer to shift the largest rock that isn't a landmark than the smallest stone that represents the bond of friendship and rivalry between neighbors. Zeus, the god of kinship, witnesses the citizens, and Zeus, the god of strangers, witnesses the strangers. When angered, they can incite terrible wars. Those who follow the law will never face the dire consequences of disobedience, but those who disregard the law will face a two-fold penalty: one from the gods and another from the law. No one should intentionally move their neighbor's boundary. If someone does, the landowners should be informed, and they should take the matter to court. If the offender is found guilty of secretly or forcefully altering the land, the court will decide their punishment or fine. Next, minor offenses between neighbors, if they accumulate, can build up resentment, making neighborhood relations unpleasant and bitter. Therefore, a person should be very careful not to offend their neighbor, especially by encroaching on their land. Anyone can easily cause harm, but not everyone can do good for others. If someone infringes on a neighbor's property and crosses boundaries, they must compensate for the damage. To correct their arrogance and stinginess, they will pay double the penalty to the injured party. The local officials will oversee matters like these and act as judges and assessors of damages. For more serious cases, as previously mentioned, all members from any of the twelve divisions will decide, and for minor cases, the commanders will handle them. If someone allows their cattle to graze on a neighbor's land, the officials will assess the damage and determine the penalty. If someone tricks bees into coming to their property, making noise to attract them, they will have to pay for the loss. If a person irresponsibly sets fire to their own wood and neglects their neighbor's property, they will be fined at the officials' discretion. If someone plants crops too close to their neighbor’s land, they will face punishment according to the laws of many legal authorities. It’s unnecessary for the primary lawgiver of our state to dictate all minor issues that can be resolved by others. For instance, farmers historically had great laws regarding water, so there's no reason to change their natural flow. Anyone may draw water from the common stream for their land, provided they do not cut off access to someone else's source. They can direct the water however they wish, except through a house, temple, or grave, but they must ensure no harm is done outside the channel. If there is a naturally dry area that prevents rainwater from replenishing the land, a person should dig down on their land until reaching clay. If they find no water at that depth, they can request water from their neighbors, as much as needed for their servants' drinking. If the neighbors also face water shortages, the amount will be determined by local officials. They will receive this daily share of their neighbors’ water. If there's heavy rain and someone living at a lower elevation damages a farmer's crops above them by obstructing water drainage, or if someone from a higher elevation irresponsibly floods their lower neighbor’s land without reaching an agreement, the affected party should call a city warden if they are in the city, or a country warden if in the countryside, to help resolve the issue. Anyone who refuses to comply with the decision will be penalized for their uncooperative behavior and will owe a fine equivalent to double the value of the damage, due to their unwillingness to cooperate with the authorities.
Now the participation of fruits shall be ordered on this wise. The goddess of Autumn has two gracious gifts: one the joy of Dionysus which is not treasured up; the other, which nature intends to be stored. Let this be the law, then, concerning the fruits of autumn: He who tastes the common or storing fruits of autumn, whether grapes or figs, before the season of vintage which coincides with Arcturus, either on his own land or on that of others—let him pay fifty drachmae, which shall be sacred to Dionysus, if he pluck them from his own land; and if from his neighbour's land, a mina, and if from any others', two-thirds of a mina. And he who would gather the 'choice' grapes or the 'choice' figs, as they are now termed, if he take them off his own land, let him pluck them how and when he likes; but if he take them from the ground of others without their leave, let him in that case be always punished in accordance with the law which ordains that he should not move what he has not laid down. And if a slave touches any fruit of this sort, without the consent of the owner of the land, he shall be beaten with as many blows as there are grapes on the bunch, or figs on the fig-tree. Let a metic purchase the 'choice' autumnal fruit, and then, if he pleases, he may gather it; but if a stranger is passing along the road, and desires to eat, let him take of the 'choice' grape for himself and a single follower without payment, as a tribute of hospitality. The law however forbids strangers from sharing in the sort which is not used for eating; and if any one, whether he be master or slave, takes of them in ignorance, let the slave be beaten, and the freeman dismissed with admonitions, and instructed to take of the other autumnal fruits which are unfit for making raisins and wine, or for laying by as dried figs. As to pears, and apples, and pomegranates, and similar fruits, there shall be no disgrace in taking them secretly; but he who is caught, if he be of less than thirty years of age, shall be struck and beaten off, but not wounded; and no freeman shall have any right of satisfaction for such blows. Of these fruits the stranger may partake, just as he may of the fruits of autumn. And if an elder, who is more than thirty years of age, eat of them on the spot, let him, like the stranger, be allowed to partake of all such fruits, but he must carry away nothing. If, however, he will not obey the law, let him run the risk of failing in the competition of virtue, in case any one takes notice of his actions before the judges at the time.
Now the rules for participating in the harvest of fruits are as follows. The goddess of Autumn offers two gifts: one is the joy of Dionysus, which isn't saved; the other is meant to be stored. So, here's the law regarding autumn fruits: anyone who tastes the common or storables like grapes or figs before the harvest time, which aligns with Arcturus, whether on their own land or someone else's, must pay fifty drachmas, which will go to Dionysus if they picked them from their own land; if they took them from a neighbor's land, they owe a mina, and if from anyone else's, two-thirds of a mina. Anyone who wants to gather the 'choice' grapes or 'choice' figs can pick them however and whenever they want if they’re from their own land; but if they take them from someone else's property without permission, they should face the consequences according to the law that states they cannot take what isn't theirs. If a slave picks any of these fruits without the landowner's consent, they will be beaten as many times as there are grapes on the bunch or figs on the tree. A resident alien can buy 'choice' autumn fruit, and if they wish, gather it; however, if a stranger comes along and wants to eat, they can take a 'choice' grape for themselves and one companion without paying as a gesture of hospitality. Nonetheless, the law prohibits strangers from eating fruits meant for storage; and if anyone, whether a master or a slave, accidentally takes these, the slave will be beaten and the free person given a warning, advising them to take other autumn fruits that aren’t meant for drying or winemaking. As for pears, apples, pomegranates, and similar fruits, there’s no shame in taking them secretly; but if someone under thirty is caught, they will be struck and chased away, without being seriously hurt; and no free person is entitled to compensation for such blows. Strangers can eat these fruits just like they can the autumn fruits. If an elder over thirty eats them on the spot, they too can enjoy these fruits, but they cannot take any with them. However, if they refuse to follow the law, they risk failing in the contest of virtue if someone notices their actions before the judges.
Water is the greatest element of nutrition in gardens, but is easily polluted. You cannot poison the soil, or the sun, or the air, which are the other elements of nutrition in plants, or divert them, or steal them; but all these things may very likely happen in regard to water, which must therefore be protected by law. And let this be the law: If any one intentionally pollutes the water of another, whether the water of a spring, or collected in reservoirs, either by poisonous substances, or by digging, or by theft, let the injured party bring the cause before the wardens of the city, and claim in writing the value of the loss; if the accused be found guilty of injuring the water by deleterious substances, let him not only pay damages, but purify the stream or the cistern which contains the water, in such manner as the laws of the interpreters order the purification to be made by the offender in each case.
Water is the most important element for nutrition in gardens, but it can easily be contaminated. You can’t poison the soil, the sun, or the air, which are also essential for plant nutrition; those elements can’t be diverted or taken away. However, all of these can definitely happen with water, so it needs to be protected by law. Here’s the law: If someone intentionally contaminates another person's water, whether it comes from a spring or is stored in reservoirs, using poisonous substances, by digging, or by stealing it, the affected person should take the matter to the city wardens and submit a written claim for the value of their loss. If the accused is found guilty of harming the water with harmful substances, they should not only pay for damages but also purify the stream or reservoir that holds the water, according to the purification methods established by the laws for each situation.
With respect to the gathering in of the fruits of the soil, let a man, if he pleases, carry his own fruits through any place in which he either does no harm to any one, or himself gains three times as much as his neighbour loses. Now of these things the magistrates should be cognizant, as of all other things in which a man intentionally does injury to another or to the property of another, by fraud or force, in the use which he makes of his own property. All these matters a man should lay before the magistrates, and receive damages, supposing the injury to be not more than three minae; or if he have a charge against another which involves a larger amount, let him bring his suit into the public courts and have the evil-doer punished. But if any of the magistrates appear to adjudge the penalties which he imposes in an unjust spirit, let him be liable to pay double to the injured party. Any one may bring the offences of magistrates, in any particular case, before the public courts. There are innumerable little matters relating to the modes of punishment, and applications for suits, and summonses and the witnesses to summonses—for example, whether two witnesses should be required for a summons, or how many—and all such details, which cannot be omitted in legislation, but are beneath the wisdom of an aged legislator. These lesser matters, as they indeed are in comparison with the greater ones, let a younger generation regulate by law, after the patterns which have preceded, and according to their own experience of the usefulness and necessity of such laws; and when they are duly regulated let there be no alteration, but let the citizens live in the observance of them.
Regarding the collection of crops, a person can carry their own fruits through any area as long as they do not harm anyone or benefit themselves three times more than what their neighbor loses. The magistrates should be aware of this, as well as any situation where someone intentionally harms another person or their property, either through deception or force, while using their own property. All these matters should be brought before the magistrates, and the injured party should receive compensation if the damage is no more than three minae; if the amount is larger, they should take their case to the public courts to have the offender punished. However, if any magistrate seems to impose penalties unfairly, they should be required to pay double to the injured party. Anyone can bring up the offenses committed by magistrates in specific cases to the public courts. There are countless small details concerning punishments, lawsuit applications, summonses, and witnesses for summonses—like whether two witnesses are needed for a summons or how many are required—and all of this must be included in legislation, though it may be considered trivial by an older legislator. These smaller issues, which are indeed lesser in comparison to the more significant ones, should be managed by a younger generation through legislation, based on previous patterns and their own understanding of the usefulness and necessity of such laws; once properly established, these laws should remain unchanged, and citizens should adhere to them.
Now of artisans, let the regulations be as follows: In the first place, let no citizen or servant of a citizen be occupied in handicraft arts; for he who is to secure and preserve the public order of the state, has an art which requires much study and many kinds of knowledge, and does not admit of being made a secondary occupation; and hardly any human being is capable of pursuing two professions or two arts rightly, or of practising one art himself, and superintending some one else who is practising another. Let this, then, be our first principle in the state: No one who is a smith shall also be a carpenter, and if he be a carpenter, he shall not superintend the smith's art rather than his own, under the pretext that in superintending many servants who are working for him, he is likely to superintend them better, because more revenue will accrue to him from them than from his own art; but let every man in the state have one art, and get his living by that. Let the wardens of the city labour to maintain this law, and if any citizen incline to any other art rather than the study of virtue, let them punish him with disgrace and infamy, until they bring him back into his own right course; and if any stranger profess two arts, let them chastise him with bonds and money penalties, and expulsion from the state, until they compel him to be one only and not many.
Now regarding artisans, the rules should be as follows: First and foremost, no citizen or the servant of a citizen should be involved in craft work. The person responsible for maintaining public order in the state has a role that requires extensive study and diverse knowledge, and this role cannot be a side job. Very few people can effectively pursue two professions or crafts simultaneously, or practice one craft while overseeing someone else practicing another. Therefore, let this be our first principle in the state: a blacksmith should not also be a carpenter, and if he is a carpenter, he should not oversee blacksmithing instead of focusing on his own trade, under the excuse that managing many workers for him will earn him more money than his own work. Each person in the state should have one craft and earn a living from it. The city's officials should work to enforce this law, and if any citizen shows interest in a different craft instead of the pursuit of virtue, they should be punished with shame and disgrace until they are redirected back to the right path. If any outsider claims to have two crafts, they should be punished with bonds and monetary fines and expelled from the state until they are forced to choose one.
But as touching payments for hire, and contracts of work, or in case any one does wrong to any of the citizens, or they do wrong to any other, up to fifty drachmae, let the wardens of the city decide the case; but if a greater amount be involved, then let the public courts decide according to law. Let no one pay any duty either on the importation or exportation of goods; and as to frankincense and similar perfumes, used in the service of the Gods, which come from abroad, and purple and other dyes which are not produced in the country, or the materials of any art which have to be imported, and which are not necessary—no one should import them; nor, again, should any one export anything which is wanted in the country. Of all these things let there be inspectors and superintendents, taken from the guardians of the law; and they shall be the twelve next in order to the five seniors. Concerning arms, and all implements which are required for military purposes, if there be need of introducing any art, or plant, or metal, or chains of any kind, or animals for use in war, let the commanders of the horse and the generals have authority over their importation and exportation; the city shall send them out and also receive them, and the guardians of the law shall make fit and proper laws about them. But let there be no retail trade for the sake of moneymaking, either in these or any other articles, in the city or country at all.
But regarding payments for services, work contracts, or if someone wrongs a citizen, or if citizens harm each other, the city's wardens should handle cases involving amounts up to fifty drachmas; if more is at stake, then the public courts will decide based on the law. No one should have to pay any duties on importing or exporting goods; and for frankincense and similar perfumes used for religious purposes, which come from abroad, as well as purple and other dyes not made in the country or any artistic materials that need to be imported and are not essential—no one should import them; nor should anyone export anything that's needed in the country. There should be inspectors and supervisors for all these matters, chosen from the law guardians, and they will be the twelve following the five seniors. Concerning weapons and any military items that need to be imported, if there is a need for any art, plant, metal, chains, or animals for warfare, the cavalry commanders and generals will have authority over their import and export; the city will facilitate their sending and receiving, and the law guardians will establish appropriate regulations regarding them. However, there should be no retail trade for profit, whether for these or any other items, in the city or countryside.
With respect to food and the distribution of the produce of the country, the right and proper way seems to be nearly that which is the custom of Crete; for all should be required to distribute the fruits of the soil into twelve parts, and in this way consume them. Let the twelfth portion of each as for instance of wheat and barley, to which the rest of the fruits of the earth shall be added, as well as the animals which are for sale in each of the twelve divisions, be divided in due proportion into three parts; one part for freemen, another for their servants, and a third for craftsmen and in general for strangers, whether sojourners who may be dwelling in the city, and like other men must live, or those who come on some business which they have with the state, or with some individual. Let only this third part of all necessaries be required to be sold; out of the other two-thirds no one shall be compelled to sell. And how will they be best distributed? In the first place, we see clearly that the distribution will be of equals in one point of view, and in another point of view of unequals.
Regarding food and the distribution of the country's produce, the most appropriate approach seems to align closely with the customs of Crete. Everyone should be required to divide the fruits of the land into twelve parts and consume them this way. The twelfth part of each type, such as wheat and barley, along with the other fruits of the earth and the animals available for sale in each of the twelve sectors, should be split into three portions: one for free citizens, another for their servants, and a third for artisans and, in general, for visitors—whether they are temporary residents living in the city or individuals who come for business with the state or someone else. Only this third portion of all necessities should be sold; no one should be forced to sell from the remaining two-thirds. And how should these be best distributed? Firstly, it is clear that the distribution will reflect equality from one perspective and inequality from another.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean that the earth of necessity produces and nourishes the various articles of food, sometimes better and sometimes worse.
ATHENIAN: I mean that the earth must produce and provide different kinds of food, sometimes better and sometimes worse.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely.
ATHENIAN: Such being the case, let no one of the three portions be greater than either of the other two—neither that which is assigned to masters or to slaves, nor again that of the stranger; but let the distribution to all be equal and alike, and let every citizen take his two portions and distribute them among slaves and freemen, he having power to determine the quantity and quality. And what remains he shall distribute by measure and number among the animals who have to be sustained from the earth, taking the whole number of them.
ATHENIAN: Given this situation, no part should be larger than the other two—neither the portion for masters nor for slaves, nor for the stranger; instead, the distribution should be equal for everyone. Each citizen should take their two portions and share them among both slaves and free people, having the authority to decide on the amount and quality. Whatever is left over should be allocated by measurement and count among the animals that need to be supported from the land, considering the total number of them.
In the second place, our citizens should have separate houses duly ordered; and this will be the order proper for men like them. There shall be twelve hamlets, one in the middle of each twelfth portion, and in each hamlet they shall first set apart a market-place, and the temples of the Gods, and of their attendant demi-gods; and if there be any local deities of the Magnetes, or holy seats of other ancient deities, whose memory has been preserved, to these let them pay their ancient honours. But Hestia, and Zeus, and Athene will have temples everywhere together with the God who presides in each of the twelve districts. And the first erection of houses shall be around these temples, where the ground is highest, in order to provide the safest and most defensible place of retreat for the guards. All the rest of the country they shall settle in the following manner: They shall make thirteen divisions of the craftsmen; one of them they shall establish in the city, and this, again, they shall subdivide into twelve lesser divisions, among the twelve districts of the city, and the remainder shall be distributed in the country round about; and in each village they shall settle various classes of craftsmen, with a view to the convenience of the husbandmen. And the chief officers of the wardens of the country shall superintend all these matters, and see how many of them, and which class of them, each place requires; and fix them where they are likely to be least troublesome, and most useful to the husbandman. And the wardens of the city shall see to similar matters in the city.
First of all, our citizens should have separate houses that are well-organized, which is the best way for people like them to live. There will be twelve villages, one in the center of each twelfth area, and in each village, they should first set aside a marketplace and temples for the Gods and their associated demi-gods. If there are any local deities of the Magnetes or sacred sites of other ancient gods whose stories have been kept alive, they should honor them in their traditional ways. However, Hestia, Zeus, and Athena will have temples everywhere along with the God in charge of each of the twelve districts. The first houses should be built around these temples, where the land is highest, to create a safe and defensible retreat for the guards. The rest of the land will be settled as follows: they will create thirteen groups for craftsmen; one will be set up in the city, which will be further divided into twelve smaller groups across the twelve city districts, while the others will be distributed in the surrounding countryside. In each village, various types of craftsmen will be settled, making life easier for the farmers. The main officers overseeing the countryside will manage these details and determine how many of each type are needed in each area, placing them where they will be the least disruptive and most helpful to the farmers. Similarly, the city wardens will handle related matters within the city.
Now the wardens of the agora ought to see to the details of the agora. Their first care, after the temples which are in the agora have been seen to, should be to prevent any one from doing any wrong in dealings between man and man; in the second place, as being inspectors of temperance and violence, they should chastise him who requires chastisement. Touching articles of sale, they should first see whether the articles which the citizens are under regulations to sell to strangers are sold to them, as the law ordains. And let the law be as follows: On the first day of the month, the persons in charge, whoever they are, whether strangers or slaves, who have the charge on behalf of the citizens, shall produce to the strangers the portion which falls to them, in the first place, a twelfth portion of the corn—the stranger shall purchase corn for the whole month, and other cereals, on the first market day; and on the tenth day of the month the one party shall sell, and the other buy, liquids sufficient to last during the whole month; and on the twenty-third day there shall be a sale of animals by those who are willing to sell to the people who want to buy, and of implements and other things which husbandmen sell, (such as skins and all kinds of clothing, either woven or made of felt and other goods of the same sort) and which strangers are compelled to buy and purchase of others. As to the retail trade in these things, whether of barley or wheat set apart for meal and flour, or any other kind of food, no one shall sell them to citizens or their slaves, nor shall any one buy of a citizen; but let the stranger sell them in the market of strangers, to artisans and their slaves, making an exchange of wine and food, which is commonly called retail trade. And butchers shall offer for sale parts of dismembered animals to the strangers, and artisans, and their servants. Let any stranger who likes buy fuel from day to day wholesale, from those who have the care of it in the country, and let him sell to the strangers as much as he pleases and when he pleases. As to other goods and implements which are likely to be wanted, they shall sell them in the common market, at any place which the guardians of the law and the wardens of the market and city, choosing according to their judgment, shall determine; at such places they shall exchange money for goods, and goods for money, neither party giving credit to the other; and he who gives credit must be satisfied, whether he obtain his money or not, for in such exchanges he will not be protected by law. But whenever property has been bought or sold, greater in quantity or value than is allowed by the law, which has determined within what limits a man may increase and diminish his possessions, let the excess be registered in the books of the guardians of the law; or in case of diminution, let there be an erasure made. And let the same rule be observed about the registration of the property of the metics. Any one who likes may come and be a metic on certain conditions; a foreigner, if he likes, and is able to settle, may dwell in the land, but he must practise an art, and not abide more than twenty years from the time at which he has registered himself; and he shall pay no sojourner's tax, however small, except good conduct, nor any other tax for buying and selling. But when the twenty years have expired, he shall take his property with him and depart. And if in the course of these years he should chance to distinguish himself by any considerable benefit which he confers on the state, and he thinks that he can persuade the council and assembly, either to grant him delay in leaving the country, or to allow him to remain for the whole of his life, let him go and persuade the city, and whatever they assent to at his instance shall take effect. For the children of the metics, being artisans, and of fifteen years of age, let the time of their sojourn commence after their fifteenth year; and let them remain for twenty years, and then go where they like; but any of them who wishes to remain, may do so, if he can persuade the council and assembly. And if he depart, let him erase all the entries which have been made by him in the register kept by the magistrates.
Now, the supervisors of the agora should take care of the details of the agora. Their first priority, after ensuring the temples in the agora are addressed, should be to prevent anyone from wrongdoing in interactions between individuals. Secondly, as overseers of moderation and violence, they should punish those who need correction. Regarding items for sale, they should first check if the goods that citizens are required to sell to outsiders are indeed being sold to them, as mandated by law. The law should state that on the first day of the month, the responsible parties, whether they are foreigners or slaves acting on behalf of the citizens, must provide the outsiders with their allotted share, specifically a twelfth of the grain. The outsider is to purchase grain for the entire month, along with other cereals, on the first market day. On the tenth day of the month, one side will sell, and the other will buy sufficient liquids to last for the month. On the twenty-third day, there should be a sale of livestock from those willing to sell to buyers, along with tools and other items that farmers sell (such as skins and all kinds of clothing, whether woven or felt, and similar goods) that outsiders are required to buy from others. For the retail trade of these items, whether barley or wheat reserved for meal and flour, or any other food, no one shall sell them to citizens or their slaves, nor shall anyone buy from a citizen; the outsider may sell these in the foreign market to artisans and their slaves, exchanging wine and food, which is commonly known as retail trade. Butchers should offer parts of butchered animals to outsiders and artisans, along with their servants. Any outsider who wishes can purchase wholesale fuel daily from those responsible for it in the countryside and sell as much as they like to other outsiders whenever desired. As for other goods and tools likely to be needed, they should be sold in the general market at locations designated by the law enforcement and market supervisors, as per their discretion; at these locations, they should exchange money for goods and goods for money, with neither party extending credit to the other; anyone who extends credit must accept the outcome, whether they receive payment or not, as such exchanges are not protected by law. However, when property is bought or sold, surpassing the limits set by law that dictate how much a person can increase or decrease their assets, the excess should be recorded in the law guardians' books; or in cases of decrease, an erasure should be made. The same rule must apply to the registration of properties belonging to metics. Anyone can choose to be a metic under certain conditions; a foreigner, if they wish and can settle, may reside in the land, but they must practice a trade and not remain more than twenty years from their registration date; they shall not owe any sojourner's tax, however small, aside from maintaining good conduct, nor any other tax on buying and selling. When the twenty years are up, they must take their property and leave. If during this period they happen to achieve a significant benefit for the state and believe they can convince the council and assembly to grant them an extension to stay or permission to remain for life, they are free to go and persuade the city, and whatever they agree to as a result of their request shall take effect. For the children of metics who are artisans and at least fifteen years old, their residency should start after their fifteenth birthday; they can stay for twenty years, then go wherever they choose; however, anyone wishing to remain must be able to persuade the council and assembly. If they leave, they should erase all the records they made in the register maintained by the magistrates.
BOOK IX.
Next to all the matters which have preceded in the natural order of legislation will come suits of law. Of suits those which relate to agriculture have been already described, but the more important have not been described. Having mentioned them severally under their usual names, we will proceed to say what punishments are to be inflicted for each offence, and who are to be the judges of them.
Next to everything we've talked about regarding legislation, we'll address legal suits. We've already covered those related to agriculture, but we haven't discussed the more significant ones. After mentioning them by their common names, we'll outline what punishments will be imposed for each offense and who will serve as the judges for these cases.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Great!
ATHENIAN: There is a sense of disgrace in legislating, as we are about to do, for all the details of crime in a state which, as we say, is to be well regulated and will be perfectly adapted to the practice of virtue. To assume that in such a state there will arise some one who will be guilty of crimes as heinous as any which are ever perpetrated in other states, and that we must legislate for him by anticipation, and threaten and make laws against him if he should arise, in order to deter him, and punish his acts, under the idea that he will arise—this, as I was saying, is in a manner disgraceful. Yet seeing that we are not like the ancient legislators, who gave laws to heroes and sons of gods, being, according to the popular belief, themselves the offspring of the gods, and legislating for others, who were also the children of divine parents, but that we are only men who are legislating for the sons of men, there is no uncharitableness in apprehending that some one of our citizens may be like a seed which has touched the ox's horn, having a heart so hard that it cannot be softened any more than those seeds can be softened by fire. Among our citizens there may be those who cannot be subdued by all the strength of the laws; and for their sake, though an ungracious task, I will proclaim my first law about the robbing of temples, in case any one should dare to commit such a crime. I do not expect or imagine that any well-brought-up citizen will ever take the infection, but their servants, and strangers, and strangers' servants may be guilty of many impieties. And with a view to them especially, and yet not without a provident eye to the weakness of human nature generally, I will proclaim the law about robbers of temples and similar incurable, or almost incurable, criminals. Having already agreed that such enactments ought always to have a short prelude, we may speak to the criminal, whom some tormenting desire by night and by day tempts to go and rob a temple, the fewest possible words of admonition and exhortation: O sir, we will say to him, the impulse which moves you to rob temples is not an ordinary human malady, nor yet a visitation of heaven, but a madness which is begotten in a man from ancient and unexpiated crimes of his race, an ever-recurring curse—against this you must guard with all your might, and how you are to guard we will explain to you. When any such thought comes into your mind, go and perform expiations, go as a suppliant to the temples of the Gods who avert evils, go to the society of those who are called good men among you; hear them tell and yourself try to repeat after them, that every man should honour the noble and the just. Fly from the company of the wicked—fly and turn not back; and if your disorder is lightened by these remedies, well and good, but if not, then acknowledge death to be nobler than life, and depart hence.
ATHENIAN: There’s something shameful about making laws for every tiny detail of crime in a society that we hope will be well-ordered and perfectly suited for virtuous living. To believe that in such a society someone might commit terrible crimes as seen in other places, and that we need to anticipate this by creating laws and threats against them just in case they appear—this, as I said, feels somewhat disgraceful. Yet, since we’re not like the ancient lawmakers who created laws for heroes and demi-gods—believed to be of divine descent—legislating for others who are also considered divine offspring, we are just regular people making laws for other regular people. It’s not unreasonable to suspect that some of our citizens could be like seeds touched by an ox’s horn, having hearts so hardened that not even fire can soften them. Among our people, there might be those who cannot be restrained by the might of laws; and for their sake, even though it’s an unpleasant task, I will announce my first law regarding temple theft, in case anyone dares to commit such a crime. I don’t expect any well-raised citizen to catch this disease, but their servants, outsiders, and the servants of outsiders might end up doing many wrongs. Keeping this in mind, and also considering the general weaknesses of human nature, I will declare the law concerning temple robbers and similar almost unredeemable criminals. Having already agreed that such laws should have brief introductions, we can talk to the criminal, whom a tormenting desire—day and night—tempts to steal from a temple, using as few words as possible for guidance and encouragement: O sir, we will say to him, the urge driving you to rob temples is not a typical human flaw, nor a divine affliction, but a madness born from the long-standing and unresolved sins of your ancestors, an ongoing curse—against this you must defend yourself with all your strength, and we will explain how. When such a thought crosses your mind, go perform rituals of purification, approach the temples of the Gods who ward off evil, seek out the company of those deemed good in your community; listen to them and try to repeat after them that every person should honor the noble and just. Flee from the company of the wicked—run and don’t look back; and if your affliction eases through these remedies, that’s great, but if not, then recognize that death is nobler than life, and depart from this world.
Such are the preludes which we sing to all who have thoughts of unholy and treasonable actions, and to him who hearkens to them the law has nothing to say. But to him who is disobedient when the prelude is over, cry with a loud voice—He who is taken in the act of robbing temples, if he be a slave or stranger, shall have his evil deed engraven on his face and hands, and shall be beaten with as many stripes as may seem good to the judges, and be cast naked beyond the borders of the land. And if he suffers this punishment he will probably return to his right mind and be improved; for no penalty which the law inflicts is designed for evil, but always makes him who suffers either better or not so much worse as he would have been. But if any citizen be found guilty of any great or unmentionable wrong, either in relation to the Gods, or his parents, or the state, let the judge deem him to be incurable, remembering that after receiving such an excellent education and training from youth upward, he has not abstained from the greatest of crimes. His punishment shall be death, which to him will be the least of evils; and his example will benefit others, if he perish ingloriously, and be cast beyond the borders of the land. But let his children and family, if they avoid the ways of their father, have glory, and let honourable mention be made of them, as having nobly and manfully escaped out of evil into good. None of them should have their goods confiscated to the state, for the lots of the citizens ought always to continue the same and equal.
These are the warnings we give to anyone thinking of doing something immoral or treasonous, and for those who heed them, the law has nothing to say. But for anyone who breaks the law once the warning is over, shout loudly—Anyone caught robbing temples, whether they are a slave or a foreigner, will have their crime marked on their face and hands, will be beaten as determined by the judges, and will be thrown out of the country naked. If they endure this punishment, they may come to their senses and improve; for no punishment imposed by the law is intended for evil, but is meant to make the offender better or at least not worse than they would have been. However, if a citizen is found guilty of a serious or unspeakable crime against the gods, their parents, or the state, the judge should consider them beyond redemption, remembering that after such a good education and upbringing, they have still committed the worst offenses. Their punishment will be death, which they will find to be the least of their troubles; and their fate will serve as a lesson to others if they die without honor and are cast out of the country. But if their children and family steer clear of their father's ways, they should be honored and recognized for nobly and bravely turning from evil to good. None of them should have their property taken by the state, because the fortunes of citizens should always remain equal.
Touching the exaction of penalties, when a man appears to have done anything which deserves a fine, he shall pay the fine, if he have anything in excess of the lot which is assigned to him; but more than that he shall not pay. And to secure exactness, let the guardians of the law refer to the registers, and inform the judges of the precise truth, in order that none of the lots may go uncultivated for want of money. But if any one seems to deserve a greater penalty, let him undergo a long and public imprisonment and be dishonoured, unless some of his friends are willing to be surety for him, and liberate him by assisting him to pay the fine. No criminal shall go unpunished, not even for a single offence, nor if he have fled the country; but let the penalty be according to his deserts—death, or bonds, or blows, or degrading places of sitting or standing, or removal to some temple on the borders of the land; or let him pay fines, as we said before. In cases of death, let the judges be the guardians of the law, and a court selected by merit from the last year's magistrates. But how the causes are to be brought into court, how the summonses are to be served, and the like, these things may be left to the younger generation of legislators to determine; the manner of voting we must determine ourselves.
Regarding penalties, if someone is found to have committed an offense deserving a fine, they must pay the fine, but only if they have more than what is allotted to them; beyond that, they should not pay. To ensure accuracy, the law enforcement officers should check the records and inform the judges of the exact facts to prevent any land from being left uncultivated due to lack of funds. If someone deserves a harsher penalty, they should face extended public imprisonment and disgrace, unless friends step in as guarantors to help pay the fine and secure their release. No offender should escape punishment, not even for a minor crime, nor if they flee the country; the penalty should match the crime—death, imprisonment, corporal punishment, or public humiliation, or they may be required to pay fines, as previously mentioned. In cases of capital punishment, the judges will oversee the law, with a court made up of last year's top magistrates. However, the details of how cases will be brought to court and how summonses will be issued can be determined by the next generation of lawmakers; we must decide the voting process ourselves.
Let the vote be given openly; but before they come to the vote let the judges sit in order of seniority over against plaintiff and defendant, and let all the citizens who can spare time hear and take a serious interest in listening to such causes. First of all the plaintiff shall make one speech, and then the defendant shall make another; and after the speeches have been made the eldest judge shall begin to examine the parties, and proceed to make an adequate enquiry into what has been said; and after the oldest has spoken, the rest shall proceed in order to examine either party as to what he finds defective in the evidence, whether of statement or omission; and he who has nothing to ask shall hand over the examination to another. And on so much of what has been said as is to the purpose all the judges shall set their seals, and place the writings on the altar of Hestia. On the next day they shall meet again, and in like manner put their questions and go through the cause, and again set their seals upon the evidence; and when they have three times done this, and have had witnesses and evidence enough, they shall each of them give a holy vote, after promising by Hestia that they will decide justly and truly to the utmost of their power; and so they shall put an end to the suit.
Let the vote be cast openly; but before they vote, the judges should sit in order of seniority facing the plaintiff and defendant, and all citizens who can take the time should listen and pay serious attention to these cases. First, the plaintiff will make their statement, and then the defendant will respond. After the speeches, the oldest judge will begin questioning the parties and will conduct a thorough investigation into what has been said. After the oldest judge has spoken, the others will take turns examining either party about any weaknesses in the evidence, whether it be in statements or omissions; anyone who has no questions will pass the examination to someone else. All judges will seal the relevant parts of what has been discussed and place the documents on the altar of Hestia. The next day, they will reconvene, ask their questions, review the case, and again seal the evidence; after doing this three times and having sufficient witnesses and evidence, each judge will cast a sacred vote, after promising by Hestia that they will decide fairly and truthfully to the best of their ability; thus, they will bring the case to a conclusion.
Next, after what relates to the Gods, follows what relates to the dissolution of the state: Whoever by permitting a man to power enslaves the laws, and subjects the city to factions, using violence and stirring up sedition contrary to law, him we will deem the greatest enemy of the whole state. But he who takes no part in such proceedings, and, being one of the chief magistrates of the state, has no knowledge of treason, or, having knowledge of it, by reason of cowardice does not interfere on behalf of his country, such an one we must consider nearly as bad. Every man who is worth anything will inform the magistrates, and bring the conspirator to trial for making a violent and illegal attempt to change the government. The judges of such cases shall be the same as of the robbers of temples; and let the whole proceeding be carried on in the same way, and the vote of the majority condemn to death. But let there be a general rule, that the disgrace and punishment of the father is not to be visited on the children, except in the case of some one whose father, grandfather, and great-grandfather have successively undergone the penalty of death. Such persons the city shall send away with all their possessions to the city and country of their ancestors, retaining only and wholly their appointed lot. And out of the citizens who have more than one son of not less than ten years of age, they shall select ten whom their father or grandfather by the mother's or father's side shall appoint, and let them send to Delphi the names of those who are selected, and him whom the God chooses they shall establish as heir of the house which has failed; and may he have better fortune than his predecessors!
Next, after discussing what concerns the Gods, we address the breakdown of the state: Whoever, by allowing a person to gain power, undermines the laws and subjects the city to factions, resorting to violence and inciting rebellion against the law, we will consider the greatest enemy of the entire state. But those who do not participate in such actions, and who, as some of the chief officials of the state, are either unaware of treason or, knowing of it, fail to act out of fear for their country, should be seen as nearly as guilty. Anyone with any integrity will inform the officials and bring the conspirator to trial for making a violent and illegal attempt to change the government. The judges in these cases shall be the same as those for temple robbers; and let the entire process be conducted in the same manner, with the majority vote resulting in a death penalty. However, a general rule must be established that the shame and punishment of the father will not extend to the children, except in cases where a father, grandfather, and great-grandfather have all faced the death penalty. In such cases, the city shall exile them with all their possessions to the city and land of their ancestors, retaining only their designated share. Among citizens with more than one son who is at least ten years old, they shall choose ten who the father or grandfather, on either side, appoints, and send their names to Delphi; and whoever the God selects will be recognized as the heir of the fallen house; may they have better luck than their ancestors!
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Once more let there be a third general law respecting the judges who are to give judgment, and the manner of conducting suits against those who are tried on an accusation of treason; and as concerning the remaining or departure of their descendants—there shall be one law for all three, for the traitor, and the robber of temples, and the subverter by violence of the laws of the state. For a thief, whether he steal much or little, let there be one law, and one punishment for all alike: in the first place, let him pay double the amount of the theft if he be convicted, and if he have so much over and above the allotment—if he have not, he shall be bound until he pay the penalty, or persuade him who has obtained the sentence against him to forgive him. But if a person be convicted of a theft against the state, then if he can persuade the city, or if he will pay back twice the amount of the theft, he shall be set free from his bonds.
ATHENIAN: Once again, let's establish a third general law regarding the judges who will make decisions, and the process for handling cases against those accused of treason; as for the fate of their descendants—there should be one law for all three: for the traitor, the temple robber, and the violent disruptor of the laws of the state. For a thief, regardless of how much he steals, there should be one law and one punishment for everyone: first, he must pay double the value of what he stole if he is found guilty, and if he has more than what is required—if he doesn't, he will be held until he pays the penalty or convinces the person who won the case against him to forgive him. However, if someone is convicted of stealing from the state, then if he can convince the city, or if he pays back double the amount he stole, he will be released from his bonds.
CLEINIAS: What makes you say, Stranger, that a theft is all one, whether the thief may have taken much or little, and either from sacred or secular places—and these are not the only differences in thefts—seeing, then, that they are of many kinds, ought not the legislator to adapt himself to them, and impose upon them entirely different penalties?
CLEINIAS: Why do you think, Stranger, that theft is the same no matter how much is stolen or whether it's taken from sacred or regular places? And those aren’t the only differences in thefts. Since there are so many types, shouldn’t the lawmaker adjust to them and set completely different penalties?
ATHENIAN: Excellent. I was running on too fast, Cleinias, and you impinged upon me, and brought me to my senses, reminding me of what, indeed, had occurred to my mind already, that legislation was never yet rightly worked out, as I may say in passing. Do you remember the image in which I likened the men for whom laws are now made to slaves who are doctored by slaves? For of this you may be very sure, that if one of those empirical physicians, who practise medicine without science, were to come upon the gentleman physician talking to his gentleman patient, and using the language almost of philosophy, beginning at the beginning of the disease and discoursing about the whole nature of the body, he would burst into a hearty laugh—he would say what most of those who are called doctors always have at their tongue's end: Foolish fellow, he would say, you are not healing the sick man, but you are educating him; and he does not want to be made a doctor, but to get well.
ATHENIAN: Great. I was going too fast, Cleinias, and you interrupted me, bringing me back to reality and reminding me of what I had already thought: that legislation has never really been figured out properly, as a side note. Do you remember the analogy I used where I compared the people for whom laws are made to slaves who are treated by other slaves? You can be quite sure of this: if one of those quack doctors—who practice medicine without any real knowledge—happened upon a qualified doctor talking to his educated patient, using language that sounds almost philosophical, starting from the beginning of the illness and discussing the entire nature of the body, he would burst out laughing. He would say what many of those called doctors always have ready to say: “You foolish guy, you’re not healing the sick man; you're trying to educate him, and he doesn’t want to become a doctor; he just wants to get better.”
CLEINIAS: And would he not be right?
CLEINIAS: Wouldn’t he be right?
ATHENIAN: Perhaps he would; and he might remark upon us, that he who discourses about laws, as we are now doing, is giving the citizens education and not laws; that would be rather a telling observation.
ATHENIAN: Maybe he would; and he might point out that someone who talks about laws, like we are right now, is really educating the citizens and not actually making laws; that would be quite an insightful comment.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: But we are fortunate.
ATHENIAN: But we're lucky.
CLEINIAS: In what way?
CLEINIAS: How so?
ATHENIAN: Inasmuch as we are not compelled to give laws, but we may take into consideration every form of government, and ascertain what is best and what is most needful, and how they may both be carried into execution; and we may also, if we please, at this very moment choose what is best, or, if we prefer, what is most necessary—which shall we do?
ATHENIAN: Since we don’t have to give laws, we can look at every type of government, figure out what’s best and what’s most needed, and find out how they can both be implemented. We can also choose right now what’s best, or if we want, what’s most necessary—what should we do?
CLEINIAS: There is something ridiculous, Stranger, in our proposing such an alternative, as if we were legislators, simply bound under some great necessity which cannot be deferred to the morrow. But we, as I may by the grace of Heaven affirm, like gatherers of stones or beginners of some composite work, may gather a heap of materials, and out of this, at our leisure, select what is suitable for our projected construction. Let us then suppose ourselves to be at leisure, not of necessity building, but rather like men who are partly providing materials, and partly putting them together. And we may truly say that some of our laws, like stones, are already fixed in their places, and others lie at hand.
CLEINIAS: There's something ridiculous, Stranger, about us suggesting such an option, as if we're lawmakers who have no choice but to decide immediately. But we, as I can confidently say, are more like stone gatherers or beginners of a larger project. We can collect a bunch of materials and take our time choosing what’s best for what we want to create. So let’s think of ourselves as being at leisure, not urgently building, but more like people who are both gathering materials and starting to put them together. Truly, we can say that some of our laws, like stones, are already set in place, while others are ready and waiting.
ATHENIAN: Certainly, in that case, Cleinias, our view of law will be more in accordance with nature. For there is another matter affecting legislators, which I must earnestly entreat you to consider.
ATHENIAN: Absolutely, in that case, Cleinias, our perspective on law will align more with nature. There’s another issue that impacts lawmakers, and I must sincerely ask you to think about it.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: There are many writings to be found in cities, and among them there are discourses composed by legislators as well as by other persons.
ATHENIAN: There are many writings in cities, including talks written by lawmakers and others.
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Shall we give heed rather to the writings of those others—poets and the like, who either in metre or out of metre have recorded their advice about the conduct of life, and not to the writings of legislators? or shall we give heed to them above all?
ATHENIAN: Should we pay more attention to the writings of others—like poets and such—who have shared their thoughts on how to live, whether in verse or not, instead of focusing on the writings of lawmakers? Or should we prioritize the latter above everything else?
CLEINIAS: Yes; to them far above all others.
CLEINIAS: Yes; to them far above everyone else.
ATHENIAN: And ought the legislator alone among writers to withhold his opinion about the beautiful, the good, and the just, and not to teach what they are, and how they are to be pursued by those who intend to be happy?
ATHENIAN: Should the legislator be the only writer to keep his opinion about beauty, goodness, and justice to himself, and not explain what they are and how to pursue them for those who want to be happy?
CLEINIAS: Certainly not.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely not.
ATHENIAN: And is it disgraceful for Homer and Tyrtaeus and other poets to lay down evil precepts in their writings respecting life and the pursuits of men, but not so disgraceful for Lycurgus and Solon and others who were legislators as well as writers? Is it not true that of all the writings to be found in cities, those which relate to laws, when you unfold and read them, ought to be by far the noblest and the best? and should not other writings either agree with them, or if they disagree, be deemed ridiculous? We should consider whether the laws of states ought not to have the character of loving and wise parents, rather than of tyrants and masters, who command and threaten, and, after writing their decrees on walls, go their ways; and whether, in discoursing of laws, we should not take the gentler view of them which may or may not be attainable—at any rate, we will show our readiness to entertain such a view, and be prepared to undergo whatever may be the result. And may the result be good, and if God be gracious, it will be good!
ATHENIAN: Is it shameful for Homer, Tyrtaeus, and other poets to promote bad ideas about life and human pursuits in their works, but not for lawmakers like Lycurgus and Solon who also wrote? Isn’t it true that out of all the writings found in cities, those about laws should be the most noble and the best? Shouldn’t other writings either align with them, or if they disagree, be considered laughable? We should think about whether the laws of states should behave more like loving and wise parents instead of tyrants and masters who command, threaten, and then walk away after posting their decrees on walls. And when we talk about laws, shouldn’t we adopt a kinder perspective, even if it's hard to achieve? At the very least, we're willing to consider that perspective and accept whatever comes of it. And hopefully, the outcome will be positive; if God is willing, it will be!
CLEINIAS: Excellent; let us do as you say.
CLEINIAS: Great; let’s do what you suggest.
ATHENIAN: Then we will now consider accurately, as we proposed, what relates to robbers of temples, and all kinds of thefts, and offences in general; and we must not be annoyed if, in the course of legislation, we have enacted some things, and have not made up our minds about some others; for as yet we are not legislators, but we may soon be. Let us, if you please, consider these matters.
ATHENIAN: Let’s now carefully consider, as we planned, everything related to temple robbers, all types of theft, and offenses in general. We shouldn’t be bothered if in our discussions we’ve put some things into law while still deciding on others; we aren’t lawmakers yet, but we will be soon. If you’re okay with it, let’s think about these issues.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Concerning all things honourable and just, let us then endeavour to ascertain how far we are consistent with ourselves, and how far we are inconsistent, and how far the many, from whom at any rate we should profess a desire to differ, agree and disagree among themselves.
ATHENIAN: Regarding everything honorable and just, let’s try to figure out how consistent we are with ourselves, how inconsistent we are, and how much the many, from whom we want to differ, agree and disagree with each other.
CLEINIAS: What are the inconsistencies which you observe in us?
CLEINIAS: What inconsistencies do you see in us?
ATHENIAN: I will endeavour to explain. If I am not mistaken, we are all agreed that justice, and just men and things and actions, are all fair, and, if a person were to maintain that just men, even when they are deformed in body, are still perfectly beautiful in respect of the excellent justice of their minds, no one would say that there was any inconsistency in this.
ATHENIAN: I will try to explain. If I'm not wrong, we all agree that justice, along with just people, things, and actions, is all fair. And if someone were to argue that just people, even if they're physically deformed, are still perfectly beautiful because of the great justice in their minds, no one would say that's inconsistent.
CLEINIAS: They would be quite right.
CLEINIAS: They would be absolutely correct.
ATHENIAN: Perhaps; but let us consider further, that if all things which are just are fair and honourable, in the term 'all' we must include just sufferings which are the correlatives of just actions.
ATHENIAN: Maybe; but let's think about it more. If everything that is just is also fair and honorable, then when we say 'everything,' we have to include just suffering, which goes hand in hand with just actions.
CLEINIAS: And what is the inference?
CLEINIAS: So what does that mean?
ATHENIAN: The inference is, that a just action in partaking of the just partakes also in the same degree of the fair and honourable.
ATHENIAN: The implication is that a just action involved in something just also shares equally in what is fair and honorable.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And must not a suffering which partakes of the just principle be admitted to be in the same degree fair and honourable, if the argument is consistently carried out?
ATHENIAN: And shouldn't a suffering that aligns with the principle of justice be considered equally fair and honorable, if the argument is consistently followed through?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For real.
ATHENIAN: But then if we admit suffering to be just and yet dishonourable, and the term 'dishonourable' is applied to justice, will not the just and the honourable disagree?
ATHENIAN: But if we accept that suffering can be just but still dishonorable, and we use the term 'dishonorable' to describe justice, won't the just and the honorable end up in conflict?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: A thing not difficult to understand; the laws which have been already enacted would seem to announce principles directly opposed to what we are saying.
ATHENIAN: It's not hard to understand; the laws that have already been created seem to express ideas that are completely against what we're saying.
CLEINIAS: To what?
CLEINIAS: To what?
ATHENIAN: We had enacted, if I am not mistaken, that the robber of temples, and he who was the enemy of law and order, might justly be put to death, and we were proceeding to make divers other enactments of a similar nature. But we stopped short, because we saw that these sufferings are infinite in number and degree, and that they are, at once, the most just and also the most dishonourable of all sufferings. And if this be true, are not the just and the honourable at one time all the same, and at another time in the most diametrical opposition?
ATHENIAN: We had decided, if I remember correctly, that the thief of temples, and anyone who disrupts law and order, could justly be put to death, and we were planning to create various other laws that were similar. But we stopped because we realized that these sufferings are endless in number and intensity, and they are, at the same time, the most just and also the most dishonorable of all sufferings. If this is true, aren't what is just and what is honorable sometimes the same, and at other times completely opposed?
CLEINIAS: Such appears to be the case.
CLEINIAS: That seems to be the case.
ATHENIAN: In this discordant and inconsistent fashion does the language of the many rend asunder the honourable and just.
ATHENIAN: In this chaotic and inconsistent way, the words of the many tear apart what is honorable and fair.
CLEINIAS: Very true, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: Totally right, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Then now, Cleinias, let us see how far we ourselves are consistent about these matters.
ATHENIAN: So now, Cleinias, let’s see how consistent we are about these things.
CLEINIAS: Consistent in what?
CLEINIAS: Consistent in what exactly?
ATHENIAN: I think that I have clearly stated in the former part of the discussion, but if I did not, let me now state—
ATHENIAN: I believe I've made my point clear in the earlier part of our discussion, but if I didn't, let me clarify now—
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: That all bad men are always involuntarily bad; and from this I must proceed to draw a further inference.
ATHENIAN: That all bad people are always bad without meaning to be; and from this, I need to draw another conclusion.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's going on?
ATHENIAN: That the unjust man may be bad, but that he is bad against his will. Now that an action which is voluntary should be done involuntarily is a contradiction; wherefore he who maintains that injustice is involuntary will deem that the unjust does injustice involuntarily. I too admit that all men do injustice involuntarily, and if any contentious or disputatious person says that men are unjust against their will, and yet that many do injustice willingly, I do not agree with him. But, then, how can I avoid being inconsistent with myself, if you, Cleinias, and you, Megillus, say to me—Well, Stranger, if all this be as you say, how about legislating for the city of the Magnetes—shall we legislate or not—what do you advise? Certainly we will, I should reply. Then will you determine for them what are voluntary and what are involuntary crimes, and shall we make the punishments greater of voluntary errors and crimes and less for the involuntary? or shall we make the punishment of all to be alike, under the idea that there is no such thing as voluntary crime?
ATHENIAN: The unjust person may be bad, but they are bad against their will. It's a contradiction for something that should be done voluntarily to happen involuntarily; therefore, anyone who claims that injustice is involuntary will believe that the unjust act out of compulsion. I also believe that all people commit injustice involuntarily, and if any argumentative person says that people are unjust against their will while insisting that many act unjustly willingly, I don't agree with that. But how can I avoid being inconsistent if you, Cleinias, and you, Megillus, ask me—Well, Stranger, if everything is as you say, what about creating laws for the people of Magnetes—should we create laws or not—what do you suggest? I would certainly say we should. Then will you decide for them what constitutes voluntary and involuntary crimes, and should we impose harsher punishments for voluntary offenses and lighter ones for involuntary ones? Or should we treat all crimes equally, on the assumption that voluntary crime doesn’t exist?
CLEINIAS: Very good, Stranger; and what shall we say in answer to these objections?
CLEINIAS: Sounds great, Stranger; so what should we say in response to these objections?
ATHENIAN: That is a very fair question. In the first place, let us—
ATHENIAN: That’s a really good question. First of all, let’s—
CLEINIAS: Do what?
CLEINIAS: What should I do?
ATHENIAN: Let us remember what has been well said by us already, that our ideas of justice are in the highest degree confused and contradictory. Bearing this in mind, let us proceed to ask ourselves once more whether we have discovered a way out of the difficulty. Have we ever determined in what respect these two classes of actions differ from one another? For in all states and by all legislators whatsoever, two kinds of actions have been distinguished—the one, voluntary, the other, involuntary; and they have legislated about them accordingly. But shall this new word of ours, like an oracle of God, be only spoken, and get away without giving any explanation or verification of itself? How can a word not understood be the basis of legislation? Impossible. Before proceeding to legislate, then, we must prove that they are two, and what is the difference between them, that when we impose the penalty upon either, every one may understand our proposal, and be able in some way to judge whether the penalty is fitly or unfitly inflicted.
ATHENIAN: Let’s remember what we’ve already said: our ideas of justice are really confusing and contradictory. Keeping this in mind, let’s ask ourselves again if we’ve found a way out of this issue. Have we figured out how these two types of actions differ from each other? In every society, legislators have made a distinction between two kinds of actions—one, voluntary, and the other, involuntary—and they’ve created laws about them accordingly. But should this new term of ours, like a divine oracle, just be mentioned and then left unexplained? How can a term that isn't understood form the basis of legislation? That’s impossible. Before we make any laws, we need to prove that there are indeed two kinds and clarify the difference between them, so that when we impose penalties for either, everyone understands our reasoning and can judge whether the penalties are appropriate or not.
CLEINIAS: I agree with you, Stranger; for one of two things is certain: either we must not say that all unjust acts are involuntary, or we must show the meaning and truth of this statement.
CLEINIAS: I agree with you, Stranger; because one of two things is clear: either we cannot say that all unjust acts are involuntary, or we need to clarify the meaning and truth of this statement.
ATHENIAN: Of these two alternatives, the one is quite intolerable—not to speak what I believe to be the truth would be to me unlawful and unholy. But if acts of injustice cannot be divided into voluntary and involuntary, I must endeavour to find some other distinction between them.
ATHENIAN: Of these two options, one is completely unacceptable—not expressing what I genuinely believe to be true would feel wrong and immoral to me. However, if we can't separate acts of injustice into those that are voluntary and those that are involuntary, I need to try to find some other way to differentiate between them.
CLEINIAS: Very true, Stranger; there cannot be two opinions among us upon that point.
CLEINIAS: You're absolutely right, Stranger; we all agree on that.
ATHENIAN: Reflect, then; there are hurts of various kinds done by the citizens to one another in the intercourse of life, affording plentiful examples both of the voluntary and involuntary.
ATHENIAN: Think about it; citizens hurt each other in different ways throughout life, providing many examples of both intentional and unintentional actions.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: I would not have any one suppose that all these hurts are injuries, and that these injuries are of two kinds—one, voluntary, and the other, involuntary; for the involuntary hurts of all men are quite as many and as great as the voluntary. And please to consider whether I am right or quite wrong in what I am going to say; for I deny, Cleinias and Megillus, that he who harms another involuntarily does him an injury involuntarily, nor should I legislate about such an act under the idea that I am legislating for an involuntary injury. But I should rather say that such a hurt, whether great or small, is not an injury at all; and, on the other hand, if I am right, when a benefit is wrongly conferred, the author of the benefit may often be said to injure. For I maintain, O my friends, that the mere giving or taking away of anything is not to be described either as just or unjust; but the legislator has to consider whether mankind do good or harm to one another out of a just principle and intention. On the distinction between injustice and hurt he must fix his eye; and when there is hurt, he must, as far as he can, make the hurt good by law, and save that which is ruined, and raise up that which is fallen, and make that which is dead or wounded whole. And when compensation has been given for injustice, the law must always seek to win over the doers and sufferers of the several hurts from feelings of enmity to those of friendship.
ATHENIAN: I don't want anyone to assume that all these harms are injuries, and that these injuries fall into two categories—one, voluntary, and the other, involuntary; because the involuntary harms that people inflict are just as numerous and serious as the voluntary ones. Please consider if I’m correct or completely mistaken in what I’m about to say; I argue, Cleinias and Megillus, that someone who harms another person unintentionally is not actually causing them an injury unintentionally, nor should I create laws regarding such actions as if I were addressing an involuntary injury. Instead, I would say that such harm, whether significant or minor, is not an injury at all; and, on the flip side, if I’m correct, when a benefit is wrongly given, the person who provides the benefit can often be said to inflict harm. I assert, my friends, that simply giving or taking away something cannot be described as just or unjust; rather, the lawmaker needs to consider whether people are doing good or harm to one another based on a fair principle and intention. The distinction between injustice and harm must be the focus; and when there is harm, the law must strive, as much as possible, to rectify the harm, preserve what has been damaged, support what has fallen, and restore that which is dead or injured. Once compensation has been made for wrongdoing, the law should always aim to shift the feelings of the doers and victims of the various harms from hostility to friendship.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Then as to unjust hurts (and gains also, supposing the injustice to bring gain), of these we may heal as many as are capable of being healed, regarding them as diseases of the soul; and the cure of injustice will take the following direction.
ATHENIAN: So, about unfair harm (and gains too, assuming the unfairness leads to profit), we can try to fix as many as we can, thinking of them as ailments of the soul; and the remedy for injustice will go in this direction.
CLEINIAS: What direction?
CLEINIAS: Which way?
ATHENIAN: When any one commits any injustice, small or great, the law will admonish and compel him either never at all to do the like again, or never voluntarily, or at any rate in a far less degree; and he must in addition pay for the hurt. Whether the end is to be attained by word or action, with pleasure or pain, by giving or taking away privileges, by means of fines or gifts, or in whatsoever way the law shall proceed to make a man hate injustice, and love or not hate the nature of the just—this is quite the noblest work of law. But if the legislator sees any one who is incurable, for him he will appoint a law and a penalty. He knows quite well that to such men themselves there is no profit in the continuance of their lives, and that they would do a double good to the rest of mankind if they would take their departure, inasmuch as they would be an example to other men not to offend, and they would relieve the city of bad citizens. In such cases, and in such cases only, the legislator ought to inflict death as the punishment of offences.
ATHENIAN: When someone commits an injustice, whether it's big or small, the law will warn and force them either to never do it again, or at least not willingly, or to do it much less often; plus, they must compensate for the harm done. Whether this is achieved through words or actions, through pleasure or pain, by granting or taking away privileges, through fines or gifts, or whatever method the law uses to instill a hatred for injustice and a love for, or at least a lack of hatred for, what is just—this is the most noble purpose of the law. However, if the lawmaker sees someone who is beyond redemption, they will set a law and a penalty for that person. They understand that for such individuals, continuing to live provides no benefit, and they would actually do greater good for humanity if they would leave, as they would serve as a warning to others not to commit offenses and would free the city from bad citizens. In such situations, and only in such situations, the legislator should impose death as the punishment for offenses.
CLEINIAS: What you have said appears to me to be very reasonable, but will you favour me by stating a little more clearly the difference between hurt and injustice, and the various complications of the voluntary and involuntary which enter into them?
CLEINIAS: I find what you’ve said quite reasonable, but could you please clarify a bit more the difference between hurt and injustice, and the various complexities of what’s voluntary and involuntary that relate to them?
ATHENIAN: I will endeavour to do as you wish: Concerning the soul, thus much would be generally said and allowed, that one element in her nature is passion, which may be described either as a state or a part of her, and is hard to be striven against and contended with, and by irrational force overturns many things.
ATHENIAN: I will try to do what you want: When it comes to the soul, it's generally accepted that one aspect of its nature is passion. This can be seen as either a state or a part of it, and it's difficult to resist and fight against, often causing chaos through its uncontrollable force.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: And pleasure is not the same with passion, but has an opposite power, working her will by persuasion and by the force of deceit in all things.
ATHENIAN: Pleasure isn't the same as passion; it has the opposite effect, achieving its goals through persuasion and the power of deceit in everything.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: A man may truly say that ignorance is a third cause of crimes. Ignorance, however, may be conveniently divided by the legislator into two sorts: there is simple ignorance, which is the source of lighter offences, and double ignorance, which is accompanied by a conceit of wisdom; and he who is under the influence of the latter fancies that he knows all about matters of which he knows nothing. This second kind of ignorance, when possessed of power and strength, will be held by the legislator to be the source of great and monstrous crimes, but when attended with weakness, will only result in the errors of children and old men; and these he will treat as errors, and will make laws accordingly for those who commit them, which will be the mildest and most merciful of all laws.
ATHENIAN: A person can honestly say that ignorance is a significant factor behind crimes. However, the lawmaker can conveniently break ignorance down into two types: simple ignorance, which leads to minor offenses, and profound ignorance, which comes with a false sense of knowledge; the person affected by the latter believes they understand everything about topics they actually know nothing about. This second type of ignorance, especially when combined with power and strength, will be seen by the lawmaker as a cause of serious and heinous crimes, but when associated with weakness, it will only result in mistakes made by children and the elderly; these will be regarded as mistakes, and the lawmaker will create rules accordingly for those who commit them, which will be the least severe and most compassionate of all laws.
CLEINIAS: You are perfectly right.
CLEINIAS: You're absolutely right.
ATHENIAN: We all of us remark of one man that he is superior to pleasure and passion, and of another that he is inferior to them; and this is true.
ATHENIAN: We all notice that one man is above pleasure and passion, while another is below them; and that’s true.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: But no one was ever yet heard to say that one of us is superior and another inferior to ignorance.
ATHENIAN: But no one has ever said that one of us is better and another is worse when it comes to ignorance.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely true.
ATHENIAN: We are speaking of motives which incite men to the fulfilment of their will; although an individual may be often drawn by them in opposite directions at the same time.
ATHENIAN: We're talking about the motives that drive people to fulfill their desires, even though an individual can often be pulled in different directions at the same time.
CLEINIAS: Yes, often.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, all the time.
ATHENIAN: And now I can define to you clearly, and without ambiguity, what I mean by the just and unjust, according to my notion of them: When anger and fear, and pleasure and pain, and jealousies and desires, tyrannize over the soul, whether they do any harm or not—I call all this injustice. But when the opinion of the best, in whatever part of human nature states or individuals may suppose that to dwell, has dominion in the soul and orders the life of every man, even if it be sometimes mistaken, yet what is done in accordance therewith, and the principle in individuals which obeys this rule, and is best for the whole life of man, is to be called just; although the hurt done by mistake is thought by many to be involuntary injustice. Leaving the question of names, about which we are not going to quarrel, and having already delineated three sources of error, we may begin by recalling them somewhat more vividly to our memory: One of them was of the painful sort, which we denominate anger and fear.
ATHENIAN: Now I can clearly and without confusion explain to you what I mean by justice and injustice, according to my understanding: When anger, fear, pleasure, pain, jealousy, and desires dominate the soul, whether they cause harm or not—I call all of this injustice. But when the opinion of what is best, regardless of where it appears in human nature, whether in states or individuals, takes control of the soul and guides a person's life, even if it is sometimes mistaken, then actions taken in line with this understanding, and the principles in individuals that follow this guidance, which are best for the overall life of a person, should be considered just; although many believe that the harm caused by mistakes is an unintentional injustice. Setting aside the question of names, which we are not going to argue about, and having already identified three sources of error, we can start by recalling them a bit more vividly: One of them was the painful kind, which we call anger and fear.
CLEINIAS: Quite right.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: There was a second consisting of pleasures and desires, and a third of hopes, which aimed at true opinion about the best. The latter being subdivided into three, we now get five sources of actions, and for these five we will make laws of two kinds.
ATHENIAN: There was a section filled with pleasures and desires, and another focused on hopes, which aimed at understanding what is truly best. The latter is broken down into three parts, giving us five sources of actions in total, and for these five, we will create two types of laws.
CLEINIAS: What are the two kinds?
CLEINIAS: What are the two types?
ATHENIAN: There is one kind of actions done by violence and in the light of day, and another kind of actions which are done in darkness and with secret deceit, or sometimes both with violence and deceit; the laws concerning these last ought to have a character of severity.
ATHENIAN: There are actions that are carried out with violence and in broad daylight, and then there are actions that happen in the dark and involve secret deceit, or sometimes both violence and deceit; the laws regarding these actions should be strict.
CLEINIAS: Naturally.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: And now let us return from this digression and complete the work of legislation. Laws have been already enacted by us concerning the robbers of the Gods, and concerning traitors, and also concerning those who corrupt the laws for the purpose of subverting the government. A man may very likely commit some of these crimes, either in a state of madness or when affected by disease, or under the influence of extreme old age, or in a fit of childish wantonness, himself no better than a child. And if this be made evident to the judges elected to try the cause, on the appeal of the criminal or his advocate, and he be judged to have been in this state when he committed the offence, he shall simply pay for the hurt which he may have done to another; but he shall be exempt from other penalties, unless he have slain some one, and have on his hands the stain of blood. And in that case he shall go to another land and country, and there dwell for a year; and if he return before the expiration of the time which the law appoints, or even set his foot at all on his native land, he shall be bound by the guardians of the law in the public prison for two years, and then go free.
ATHENIAN: Now, let’s get back from this digression and finish the legislation. We’ve already made laws about the robbers of the Gods, traitors, and those who manipulate the laws to undermine the government. A person might commit some of these crimes either during a moment of madness, due to illness, as a result of extreme old age, or in a childish fit of recklessness, being no better than a child himself. If this is proven to the judges assigned to handle the case, either through the appeal of the accused or their advocate, and they determine that the person was in such a state when the crime occurred, he will only have to compensate for the harm done to another. He’ll be exempt from other penalties unless he has killed someone, in which case he will be sent to another land and live there for a year. If he returns before this period is over, or even sets foot back on his home land, he will be held by the law guardians in public prison for two years, after which he will be released.
Having begun to speak of homicide, let us endeavour to lay down laws concerning every different kind of homicide; and, first of all, concerning violent and involuntary homicides. If any one in an athletic contest, and at the public games, involuntarily kills a friend, and he dies either at the time or afterwards of the blows which he has received; or if the like misfortune happens to any one in war, or military exercises, or mimic contests of which the magistrates enjoin the practice, whether with or without arms, when he has been purified according to the law brought from Delphi relating to these matters, he shall be innocent. And so in the case of physicians: if their patient dies against their will, they shall be held guiltless by the law. And if one slay another with his own hand, but unintentionally, whether he be unarmed or have some instrument or dart in his hand; or if he kill him by administering food or drink, or by the application of fire or cold, or by suffocating him, whether he do the deed by his own hand, or by the agency of others, he shall be deemed the agent, and shall suffer one of the following penalties: If he kill the slave of another in the belief that he is his own, he shall bear the master of the dead man harmless from loss, or shall pay a penalty of twice the value of the dead man, which the judges shall assess; but purifications must be used greater and more numerous than for those who committed homicide at the games—what they are to be, the interpreters whom the God appoints shall be authorised to declare. And if a man kills his own slave, when he has been purified according to law, he shall be quit of the homicide. And if a man kills a freeman unintentionally, he shall undergo the same purification as he did who killed the slave. But let him not forget also a tale of olden time, which is to this effect: He who has suffered a violent end, when newly dead, if he has had the soul of a freeman in life, is angry with the author of his death; and being himself full of fear and panic by reason of his violent end, when he sees his murderer walking about in his own accustomed haunts, he is stricken with terror and becomes disordered, and this disorder of his, aided by the guilty recollection of the other, is communicated by him with overwhelming force to the murderer and his deeds. Wherefore also the murderer must go out of the way of his victim for the entire period of a year, and not himself be found in any spot which was familiar to him throughout the country. And if the dead man be a stranger, the homicide shall be kept from the country of the stranger during a like period. If any one voluntarily obeys this law, the next of kin to the deceased, seeing all that has happened, shall take pity on him, and make peace with him, and show him all gentleness. But if any one is disobedient, and either ventures to go to any of the temples and sacrifice unpurified, or will not continue in exile during the appointed time, the next of kin to the deceased shall proceed against him for murder; and if he be convicted, every part of his punishment shall be doubled. And if the next of kin do not proceed against the perpetrator of the crime, then the pollution shall be deemed to fall upon his own head—the murdered man will fix the guilt upon his kinsman, and he who has a mind to proceed against him may compel him to be absent from his country during five years, according to law. If a stranger unintentionally kill a stranger who is dwelling in the city, he who likes shall prosecute the cause according to the same rules. If he be a metic, let him be absent for a year, or if he be an entire stranger, in addition to the purification, whether he have slain a stranger, or a metic, or a citizen, he shall be banished for life from the country which is in possession of our laws. And if he return contrary to law, let the guardians of the law punish him with death; and let them hand over his property, if he have any, to him who is next of kin to the sufferer. And if he be wrecked, and driven on the coast against his will, he shall take up his abode on the seashore, wetting his feet in the sea, and watching for an opportunity of sailing; but if he be brought by land, and is not his own master, let the magistrate whom he first comes across in the city, release him and send him unharmed over the border.
Having started to talk about homicide, let's try to establish guidelines about the different types of homicide, beginning with violent and involuntary ones. If someone accidentally kills a friend during a sports event or at public games, and that person dies at the moment or later from the injuries sustained; or if a similar unfortunate event occurs in war, military drills, or practice contests sanctioned by the authorities, whether armed or unarmed, as long as they have been cleansed according to the law from Delphi regarding these matters, they will be considered innocent. Similarly, if a doctor has a patient who dies despite their best efforts, the law will hold them blameless. If someone unintentionally kills another person, whether they are unarmed or holding a weapon; or if they cause death by giving food or drink, applying heat or cold, or suffocating someone, either directly or through another person, they will be seen as responsible and will face one of the following penalties: If they kill someone else's slave thinking it is their own, they must compensate the slave's owner for the loss or pay twice the value of the slave, as determined by the judges; however, they will require more extensive purifications than those who committed homicide during games—what these entail shall be announced by the appointed interpreters. If someone kills their own slave after being purified according to the law, they will be free from guilt. If they unintentionally kill a free person, they must go through the same purification process as if they had killed a slave. Additionally, one should not forget an old tale that goes like this: A person who suffers a violent death, if they had the soul of a free person in life, becomes angry at their killer; and being filled with fear and panic due to their violent end, when they see their murderer in familiar places, they become terrified and disturbed, and this disturbance, combined with the murderer’s guilty memories, overwhelms the murderer with fear for their actions. For this reason, the murderer must stay away from their victim’s usual places for an entire year and must not be found in any location familiar to them throughout the land. If the deceased is a stranger, the killer must stay out of that person's homeland for the same period. If someone willingly follows this law, the deceased's next of kin, observing everything that has transpired, may feel compassion for them, make peace, and treat them kindly. However, if someone disobeys, whether by going to any temples to sacrifice while unpurified, or refusing to remain in exile for the prescribed time, the deceased's next of kin will take action against them for murder; and if found guilty, their punishment will be doubled. If the next of kin do not pursue the offender, then the guilt will fall on them; the murdered person will direct blame at their relative, and anyone seeking action against them can require them to remain out of their homeland for five years as per the law. If a stranger unintentionally kills another stranger living in the city, anyone may take legal action based on the same rules. If the offender is a metic, they must stay away for a year; if they are an absolute stranger, in addition to purification, whether they kill a stranger, a metic, or a citizen, they will be permanently banished from the territory governed by our laws. If they return illegally, the law enforcers should punish them with death; and any property they might have should go to the next of kin of the victim. If they happen to be shipwrecked and washed ashore against their will, they should settle by the seaside, wetting their feet in the water and looking for a chance to sail away; but if they come by land and are not in control of themselves, the first magistrate they encounter in the city should release them and send them across the border unharmed.
If any one slays a freeman with his own hand, and the deed be done in passion, in the case of such actions we must begin by making a distinction. For a deed is done from passion either when men suddenly, and without intention to kill, cause the death of another by blows and the like on a momentary impulse, and are sorry for the deed immediately afterwards; or again, when after having been insulted in deed or word, men pursue revenge, and kill a person intentionally, and are not sorry for the act. And, therefore, we must assume that these homicides are of two kinds, both of them arising from passion, which may be justly said to be in a mean between the voluntary and involuntary; at the same time, they are neither of them anything more than a likeness or shadow of either. He who treasures up his anger, and avenges himself, not immediately and at the moment, but with insidious design, and after an interval, is like the voluntary; but he who does not treasure up his anger, and takes vengeance on the instant, and without malice prepense, approaches to the involuntary; and yet even he is not altogether involuntary, but is only the image or shadow of the involuntary; wherefore about homicides committed in hot blood, there is a difficulty in determining whether in legislating we shall reckon them as voluntary or as partly involuntary. The best and truest view is to regard them respectively as likenesses only of the voluntary and involuntary, and to distinguish them accordingly as they are done with or without premeditation. And we should make the penalties heavier for those who commit homicide with angry premeditation, and lighter for those who do not premeditate, but smite upon the instant; for that which is like a greater evil should be punished more severely, and that which is like a less evil should be punished less severely: this shall be the rule of our laws.
If someone kills a free person with their own hand, and it’s done out of passion, we need to start by making a distinction. A person acts out of passion either when they suddenly, without meaning to kill, cause someone’s death through blows or something similar in a moment of impulse and feel regret immediately afterward, or when, after being insulted in some way, they seek revenge, intentionally killing someone without feeling remorse. Therefore, we can categorize these killings into two kinds, both stemming from passion, which can be seen as sitting between voluntary and involuntary acts; however, neither fully qualifies as either. The person who holds onto their anger and seeks revenge not immediately but with careful planning after some time is more like the voluntary type; on the other hand, the one who acts on their anger immediately and without premeditated malice comes closer to the involuntary type. Yet even they aren’t entirely involuntary but merely resemble the involuntary act; thus, determining how to legislate about homicides carried out in a heated moment poses a challenge regarding whether to classify them as voluntary or partially involuntary. The clearest and most accurate perspective is to view them as mere reflections of the voluntary and involuntary acts and to differentiate them based on whether they were done with or without premeditation. We should impose harsher penalties on those who commit homicide with angry intent and lighter penalties for those who act without premeditation and strike in the moment; because that which resembles a greater wrongdoing should be punished more severely, while that which resembles a lesser wrongdoing should be punished less severely: this will be the principle of our laws.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: Let us proceed: If any one slays a freeman with his own hand, and the deed be done in a moment of anger, and without premeditation, let the offender suffer in other respects as the involuntary homicide would have suffered, and also undergo an exile of two years, that he may learn to school his passions. But he who slays another from passion, yet with premeditation, shall in other respects suffer as the former; and to this shall be added an exile of three instead of two years—his punishment is to be longer because his passion is greater. The manner of their return shall be on this wise: (and here the law has difficulty in determining exactly; for in some cases the murderer who is judged by the law to be the worse may really be the less cruel, and he who is judged the less cruel may be really the worse, and may have executed the murder in a more savage manner, whereas the other may have been gentler. But in general the degrees of guilt will be such as we have described them. Of all these things the guardians of the law must take cognizance): When a homicide of either kind has completed his term of exile, the guardians shall send twelve judges to the borders of the land; these during the interval shall have informed themselves of the actions of the criminals, and they shall judge respecting their pardon and reception; and the homicides shall abide by their judgment. But if after they have returned home, any one of them in a moment of anger repeats the deed, let him be an exile, and return no more; or if he returns, let him suffer as the stranger was to suffer in a similar case. He who kills his own slave shall undergo a purification, but if he kills the slave of another in anger, he shall pay twice the amount of the loss to his owner. And if any homicide is disobedient to the law, and without purification pollutes the agora, or the games, or the temples, he who pleases may bring to trial the next of kin to the dead man for permitting him, and the murderer with him, and may compel the one to exact and the other to suffer a double amount of fines and purifications; and the accuser shall himself receive the fine in accordance with the law. If a slave in a fit of passion kills his master, the kindred of the deceased man may do with the murderer (provided only they do not spare his life) whatever they please, and they will be pure; or if he kills a freeman, who is not his master, the owner shall give up the slave to the relatives of the deceased, and they shall be under an obligation to put him to death, but this may be done in any manner which they please. And if (which is a rare occurrence, but does sometimes happen) a father or a mother in a moment of passion slays a son or daughter by blows, or some other violence, the slayer shall undergo the same purification as in other cases, and be exiled during three years; but when the exile returns the wife shall separate from the husband, and the husband from the wife, and they shall never afterwards beget children together, or live under the same roof, or partake of the same sacred rites with those whom they have deprived of a child or of a brother. And he who is impious and disobedient in such a case shall be brought to trial for impiety by any one who pleases. If in a fit of anger a husband kills his wedded wife, or the wife her husband, the slayer shall undergo the same purification, and the term of exile shall be three years. And when he who has committed any such crime returns, let him have no communication in sacred rites with his children, neither let him sit at the same table with them, and the father or son who disobeys shall be liable to be brought to trial for impiety by any one who pleases. If a brother or a sister in a fit of passion kills a brother or a sister, they shall undergo purification and exile, as was the case with parents who killed their offspring: they shall not come under the same roof, or share in the sacred rites of those whom they have deprived of their brethren, or of their children. And he who is disobedient shall be justly liable to the law concerning impiety, which relates to these matters. If any one is so violent in his passion against his parents, that in the madness of his anger he dares to kill one of them, if the murdered person before dying freely forgives the murderer, let him undergo the purification which is assigned to those who have been guilty of involuntary homicide, and do as they do, and he shall be pure. But if he be not acquitted, the perpetrator of such a deed shall be amenable to many laws—he shall be amenable to the extreme punishments for assault, and impiety, and robbing of temples, for he has robbed his parent of life; and if a man could be slain more than once, most justly would he who in a fit of passion has slain father or mother, undergo many deaths. How can he, whom, alone of all men, even in defence of his life, and when about to suffer death at the hands of his parents, no law will allow to kill his father or his mother who are the authors of his being, and whom the legislator will command to endure any extremity rather than do this—how can he, I say, lawfully receive any other punishment? Let death then be the appointed punishment of him who in a fit of passion slays his father or his mother. But if brother kills brother in a civil broil, or under other like circumstances, if the other has begun, and he only defends himself, let him be free from guilt, as he would be if he had slain an enemy; and the same rule will apply if a citizen kill a citizen, or a stranger a stranger. Or if a stranger kill a citizen or a citizen a stranger in self-defence, let him be free from guilt in like manner; and so in the case of a slave who has killed a slave; but if a slave have killed a freeman in self-defence, let him be subject to the same law as he who has killed a father; and let the law about the remission of penalties in the case of parricide apply equally to every other remission. Whenever any sufferer of his own accord remits the guilt of homicide to another, under the idea that his act was involuntary, let the perpetrator of the deed undergo a purification and remain in exile for a year, according to law.
ATHENIAN: Let's move forward: If someone kills a free person with their own hands, and it happens in a fit of anger, without planning, the offender should face the same consequences as an unintentional killer, plus a two-year exile, so they can learn to control their emotions. But if someone kills out of passion but has thought about it beforehand, they'll face the same consequences as the first, with an extended three-year exile—because their passion is greater. The way they return will be as follows: (the law struggles to determine this; sometimes, the killer deemed worse might actually be less cruel, and the one seen as less cruel could be more brutal, having committed the murder in a more savage way, while the other could have acted more gently. But generally, the levels of guilt will be as we've described. The guardians of the law must oversee all these matters): When a person convicted of either type of homicide finishes their exile, the guardians will send twelve judges to the border of the land; during this time, they will have investigated the actions of the offenders, and they will decide on their pardon and reentry; the offenders must accept their judgment. If, after returning home, any of them kills again in a moment of anger, they should be exiled permanently; or if they come back, they should face the same punishment as a stranger in a similar situation. If someone kills their own slave, they must undergo a purification, but if they kill someone else's slave out of anger, they must compensate the owner twice the value of the loss. If any killer disobeys the law and profanes the agora, games, or temples without purification, anyone can bring the next of kin of the victim to trial for allowing this, along with the murderer, and can force them both to pay double fines and undergo purification; the accuser will receive the fine as per the law. If a slave, in a fit of rage, kills his master, the deceased's family can do whatever they want with the murderer (as long as they don't spare his life), and they will remain pure; if he kills a free person who is not his master, the owner must hand over the slave to the victim's relatives, who are obligated to execute him, but they can do it however they see fit. In rare cases, if a father or mother kills their child out of anger with blows or violence, the killer will go through the same purification and face three years of exile; however, when they return from exile, the wife must separate from the husband and the husband from the wife, and they cannot have children together or live under the same roof, nor participate in the same sacred rites with those whose child or sibling they have lost. Anyone who acts impiously and disobeys in such a situation can be put on trial for impiety by anyone who wishes to do so. If a husband kills his wife in a fit of anger, or a wife kills her husband, the killer must go through the same purification process, and the term of exile will be three years. When someone who committed such a crime returns, they should not partake in sacred rites with their children, nor sit at the same table with them. If either the father or son disobeys, they can be brought to trial for impiety by anyone who chooses to. If a brother or sister, out of passion, kills a sibling, they will undergo purification and exile, as with parents who kill their children: they cannot live together or share in the sacred rites with those from whom they have taken a sibling or a child. Anyone who disobeys will justly face legal repercussions relating to impiety in these matters. If someone is so consumed by anger to kill a parent, and if the victim, before dying, forgives the murderer, they should go through the purification process for unintentional homicide and act accordingly, and they will be considered pure. But if they are not acquitted, the person responsible for such an act will be subject to severe penalties—facing harsh punishments for assault, impiety, and temple robbery because they have robbed their parent of life; and if someone could die more than once, the one who, in anger, has killed a father or mother should face many deaths. How can anyone, who, above all, cannot kill their own parents even to defend their own life, as no law allows that, and the legislator demands that they endure any hardship rather than do this—how can they, I ask, lawfully face any other punishment? Therefore, let death be the sentence for anyone who, in a fit of passion, kills a father or mother. But if a brother kills another brother in a civil dispute, or under similar circumstances, and if the other initiated, allowing for self-defense, let them be free of guilt, as if they had killed an enemy; the same applies if a citizen kills another citizen, or a stranger kills another stranger. If a stranger kills a citizen or a citizen kills a stranger in self-defense, they should be free of guilt in like manner; this also applies to a slave who has killed another slave; but if a slave kills a free person in self-defense, let them be subject to the same law as someone who has killed a parent; and let the laws regarding the remission of penalties for parricide apply equally to any other remission. Whenever someone voluntarily forgives another for homicide, believing it to be unintentional, that person should undergo purification and remain in exile for a year, according to the law.
Enough has been said of murders violent and involuntary and committed in passion: we have now to speak of voluntary crimes done with injustice of every kind and with premeditation, through the influence of pleasures, and desires, and jealousies.
Enough has been said about murders that are violent and unintentional, as well as those done in the heat of the moment: now we need to discuss intentional crimes carried out with all sorts of injustices and premeditated actions, driven by desires, pleasures, and jealousy.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Let us first speak, as far as we are able, of their various kinds. The greatest cause of them is lust, which gets the mastery of the soul maddened by desire; and this is most commonly found to exist where the passion reigns which is strongest and most prevalent among the mass of mankind: I mean where the power of wealth breeds endless desires of never-to-be-satisfied acquisition, originating in natural disposition, and a miserable want of education. Of this want of education, the false praise of wealth which is bruited about both among Hellenes and barbarians is the cause; they deem that to be the first of goods which in reality is only the third. And in this way they wrong both posterity and themselves, for nothing can be nobler and better than that the truth about wealth should be spoken in all states—namely, that riches are for the sake of the body, as the body is for the sake of the soul. They are good, and wealth is intended by nature to be for the sake of them, and is therefore inferior to them both, and third in order of excellence. This argument teaches us that he who would be happy ought not to seek to be rich, or rather he should seek to be rich justly and temperately, and then there would be no murders in states requiring to be purged away by other murders. But now, as I said at first, avarice is the chiefest cause and source of the worst trials for voluntary homicide. A second cause is ambition: this creates jealousies, which are troublesome companions, above all to the jealous man himself, and in a less degree to the chiefs of the state. And a third cause is cowardly and unjust fear, which has been the occasion of many murders. When a man is doing or has done something which he desires that no one should know him to be doing or to have done, he will take the life of those who are likely to inform of such things, if he have no other means of getting rid of them. Let this be said as a prelude concerning crimes of violence in general; and I must not omit to mention a tradition which is firmly believed by many, and has been received by them from those who are learned in the mysteries: they say that such deeds will be punished in the world below, and also that when the perpetrators return to this world they will pay the natural penalty which is due to the sufferer, and end their lives in like manner by the hand of another. If he who is about to commit murder believes this, and is made by the mere prelude to dread such a penalty, there is no need to proceed with the proclamation of the law. But if he will not listen, let the following law be declared and registered against him: Whoever shall wrongfully and of design slay with his own hand any of his kinsmen, shall in the first place be deprived of legal privileges; and he shall not pollute the temples, or the agora, or the harbours, or any other place of meeting, whether he is forbidden of men or not; for the law, which represents the whole state, forbids him, and always is and will be in the attitude of forbidding him. And if a cousin or nearer relative of the deceased, whether on the male or female side, does not prosecute the homicide when he ought, and have him proclaimed an outlaw, he shall in the first place be involved in the pollution, and incur the hatred of the Gods, even as the curse of the law stirs up the voices of men against him; and in the second place he shall be liable to be prosecuted by any one who is willing to inflict retribution on behalf of the dead. And he who would avenge a murder shall observe all the precautionary ceremonies of lavation, and any others which the God commands in cases of this kind. Let him have proclamation made, and then go forth and compel the perpetrator to suffer the execution of justice according to the law. Now the legislator may easily show that these things must be accomplished by prayers and sacrifices to certain Gods, who are concerned with the prevention of murders in states. But who these Gods are, and what should be the true manner of instituting such trials with due regard to religion, the guardians of the law, aided by the interpreters, and the prophets, and the God, shall determine, and when they have determined let them carry on the prosecution at law. The cause shall have the same judges who are appointed to decide in the case of those who plunder temples. Let him who is convicted be punished with death, and let him not be buried in the country of the murdered man, for this would be shameless as well as impious. But if he fly and will not stand his trial, let him fly for ever; or, if he set foot anywhere on any part of the murdered man's country, let any relation of the deceased, or any other citizen who may first happen to meet with him, kill him with impunity, or bind and deliver him to those among the judges of the case who are magistrates, that they may put him to death. And let the prosecutor demand surety of him whom he prosecutes; three sureties sufficient in the opinion of the magistrates who try the cause shall be provided by him, and they shall undertake to produce him at the trial. But if he be unwilling or unable to provide sureties, then the magistrates shall take him and keep him in bonds, and produce him at the day of trial.
ATHENIAN: First, let's discuss the different types as best as we can. The main reason for them is desire, which takes control of the soul that is consumed by craving; and this is most commonly seen where the strongest and most widespread passion thrives among most people: I mean where the influence of wealth creates endless desires for unquenchable gain, stemming from natural tendencies and a lack of education. This lack of education is caused by the false praise of wealth, which is spread among both Greeks and non-Greeks; they think that wealth is the greatest good, whereas it is actually only the third. In this way, they do a disservice to both future generations and themselves, for nothing is more noble or better than acknowledging the truth about wealth in all societies—namely, that riches are for the sake of the body, just as the body is for the sake of the soul. They are good, and wealth is meant by nature to serve them, making it inherently inferior to both and the third in the order of excellence. This reasoning shows us that anyone who seeks happiness should not aim to be rich, but rather should strive to become wealthy justly and moderately; otherwise, there will be no need for violence in societies that require cleansing through further acts of violence. But as I mentioned at the outset, greed is the primary cause and source of the worst trials leading to intentional murder. A second reason is ambition: it creates jealousy, which is a troublesome companion, especially for the jealous person themselves, and to a lesser extent for those leading the state. The third reason is cowardly and unjust fear, which has led to many murders. When someone is doing or has done something they desperately want to keep hidden, they may take the lives of those who might expose them, if they see no other way out. This serves as a prelude regarding violent crimes in general; I must also mention a widely accepted belief held by many, passed down by those knowledgeable in the mysteries: they say that such acts will be punished in the afterlife, and that when the perpetrators return to this world, they will face the natural consequences owed to the victim, often ending their lives similarly at the hands of another. If the potential murderer believes this and is deterred by this forewarning, there’s no need to continue with the declaration of the law. However, if they refuse to listen, let the following law be established and recorded against them: Anyone who intentionally and wrongfully kills a relative with their own hand shall first be stripped of legal rights; they shall not desecrate the temples, or the marketplace, or the harbors, or any other gathering place, whether people prohibit them or not; for the law, representing the entire state, forbids them, and always will. If a cousin or closer relative of the victim fails to prosecute the murderer when they should, and does not declare them an outlaw, they will first share in the pollution and incur the wrath of the Gods, just as the curse of the law ignites public condemnation against them; secondly, they will be subject to prosecution by anyone willing to seek justice for the deceased. Anyone who seeks to avenge a murder must perform all the necessary purification rites and any other rituals mandated by the God in these matters. They should make a public declaration, then go and compel the perpetrator to face justice as dictated by the law. The legislator can easily argue that these matters must be addressed through prayers and sacrifices to specific Gods who oversee the prevention of murders in society. But which Gods they are, and how such trials should be carried out in accordance with religious guidelines, shall be decided by the guardians of the law, with help from interpreters, prophets, and the God; and once determined, they shall pursue the legal process. The case should have the same judges who are appointed to hear cases involving temple robbery. Anyone found guilty should be sentenced to death, and they must not be buried in the land of the murdered person, as this would be both shameless and impious. However, if they flee and refuse to face trial, let them remain a fugitive forever; or if they set foot anywhere in the land of the murdered person, let any relative of the deceased, or any citizen who encounters them first, kill them without consequences, or capture them and bring them to the judges assigned to the case so they can be executed. And let the prosecutor demand guarantees from the one being prosecuted; three guarantees deemed sufficient by the magistrates handling the case must be provided, obligating them to produce the defendant for the trial. If they are unwilling or unable to provide guarantees, then the magistrates shall take them into custody and present them for the trial.
If a man do not commit a murder with his own hand, but contrives the death of another, and is the author of the deed in intention and design, and he continues to dwell in the city, having his soul not pure of the guilt of murder, let him be tried in the same way, except in what relates to the sureties; and also, if he be found guilty, his body after execution may have burial in his native land, but in all other respects his case shall be as the former; and whether a stranger shall kill a citizen, or a citizen a stranger, or a slave a slave, there shall be no difference as touching murder by one's own hand or by contrivance, except in the matter of sureties; and these, as has been said, shall be required of the actual murderer only, and he who brings the accusation shall bind them over at the time. If a slave be convicted of slaying a freeman voluntarily, either by his own hand or by contrivance, let the public executioner take him in the direction of the sepulchre, to a place whence he can see the tomb of the dead man, and inflict upon him as many stripes as the person who caught him orders, and if he survive, let him put him to death. And if any one kills a slave who has done no wrong, because he is afraid that he may inform of some base and evil deeds of his own, or for any similar reason, in such a case let him pay the penalty of murder, as he would have done if he had slain a citizen. There are things about which it is terrible and unpleasant to legislate, but impossible not to legislate. If, for example, there should be murders of kinsmen, either perpetrated by the hands of kinsmen, or by their contrivance, voluntary and purely malicious, which most often happen in ill-regulated and ill-educated states, and may perhaps occur even in a country where a man would not expect to find them, we must repeat once more the tale which we narrated a little while ago, in the hope that he who hears us will be the more disposed to abstain voluntarily on these grounds from murders which are utterly abominable. For the myth, or saying, or whatever we ought to call it, has been plainly set forth by priests of old; they have pronounced that the justice which guards and avenges the blood of kindred, follows the law of retaliation, and ordains that he who has done any murderous act should of necessity suffer that which he has done. He who has slain a father shall himself be slain at some time or other by his children—if a mother, he shall of necessity take a woman's nature, and lose his life at the hands of his offspring in after ages; for where the blood of a family has been polluted there is no other purification, nor can the pollution be washed out until the homicidal soul which did the deed has given life for life, and has propitiated and laid to sleep the wrath of the whole family. These are the retributions of Heaven, and by such punishments men should be deterred. But if they are not deterred, and any one should be incited by some fatality to deprive his father, or mother, or brethren, or children, of life voluntarily and of purpose, for him the earthly lawgiver legislates as follows: There shall be the same proclamations about outlawry, and there shall be the same sureties which have been enacted in the former cases. But in his case, if he be convicted, the servants of the judges and the magistrates shall slay him at an appointed place without the city where three ways meet, and there expose his body naked, and each of the magistrates on behalf of the whole city shall take a stone and cast it upon the head of the dead man, and so deliver the city from pollution; after that, they shall bear him to the borders of the land, and cast him forth unburied, according to law. And what shall he suffer who slays him who of all men, as they say, is his own best friend? I mean the suicide, who deprives himself by violence of his appointed share of life, not because the law of the state requires him, nor yet under the compulsion of some painful and inevitable misfortune which has come upon him, nor because he has had to suffer from irremediable and intolerable shame, but who from sloth or want of manliness imposes upon himself an unjust penalty. For him, what ceremonies there are to be of purification and burial God knows, and about these the next of kin should enquire of the interpreters and of the laws thereto relating, and do according to their injunctions. They who meet their death in this way shall be buried alone, and none shall be laid by their side; they shall be buried ingloriously in the borders of the twelve portions of the land, in such places as are uncultivated and nameless, and no column or inscription shall mark the place of their interment. And if a beast of burden or other animal cause the death of any one, except in the case of anything of that kind happening to a competitor in the public contests, the kinsmen of the deceased shall prosecute the slayer for murder, and the wardens of the country, such, and so many as the kinsmen appoint, shall try the cause, and let the beast when condemned be slain by them, and let them cast it beyond the borders. And if any lifeless thing deprive a man of life, except in the case of a thunderbolt or other fatal dart sent from the Gods—whether a man is killed by lifeless objects falling upon him, or by his falling upon them, the nearest of kin shall appoint the nearest neighbour to be a judge, and thereby acquit himself and the whole family of guilt. And he shall cast forth the guilty thing beyond the border, as has been said about the animals.
If a person doesn’t directly commit murder but plans the death of someone else and is the mastermind behind the act in intention and design, and continues to live in the city with a guilty conscience over the murder, they should be tried in the same way, except regarding sureties. If found guilty, their body may be buried in their homeland after execution, but otherwise, their case will be treated the same as the previous one. It doesn’t matter if a stranger kills a citizen, a citizen kills a stranger, or a slave kills another slave; there’s no distinction between murder committed directly or through planning, except for the matter of sureties. These, as mentioned, will only be required from the actual killer, and the accuser must secure them at that time. If a slave is convicted of killing a free person voluntarily, whether by their own actions or by plotting, the public executioner should take them to the burial site, where they can see the tomb of the victim, and inflict as many strikes as the catcher orders. If the slave survives, they should be put to death. If someone kills an innocent slave out of fear that the slave might expose their wrongdoings or for any similar reason, that person should face the same penalty for murder as they would if they had killed a citizen. There are topics that are difficult and unpleasant to legislate, but necessary to address. For example, murders among relatives, whether committed by one relative against another or through their design—especially malicious and intentional acts—are more likely to happen in poorly governed and poorly educated societies and can appear even in places you’d least expect. We must recount the story we shared earlier, in the hope that those who hear it will choose to avoid such utterly reprehensible murders. The myth or saying, whatever we should call it, has been clearly stated by ancient priests; they have declared that the justice that protects and avenges the blood of relatives follows the law of retribution, requiring that one who commits a murder must eventually suffer the same fate. Whoever kills their father shall themselves be killed at some point by their own children—if it’s the mother, they will inevitably adopt a woman’s nature and lose their life at the hands of their descendants in the future; for where the blood of a family has been tainted, there is no other purification, nor can the stain be washed away until the murderous soul that committed the act has paid with their own life and has appeased the anger of the entire family. These are the divine repercussions, and such punishments should deter people. However, if they remain undeterred, and someone is driven by some fate to willingly take the life of their father, mother, siblings, or children, the earthly lawmaker decrees the following: The same declarations regarding outlawry will apply, along with the same sureties established in previous cases. If convicted, the servants of the judges and magistrates will execute them at a designated place outside the city where three roads meet, and expose their naked body. Each magistrate, representing the entire city, should take a stone and cast it upon the head of the deceased to cleanse the city from pollution; afterward, they must carry the body to the borders of the land and cast it out unburied, in accordance with the law. And what should happen to someone who kills the one person, as they say, who is their best friend? I mean the suicide, who violently takes away their own life, not because of state law, nor due to unavoidable misfortune, nor because of unbearable shame, but because of laziness or lack of courage imposes an unjust penalty on themselves. For them, the rituals of purification and burial are known only to God, and the next of kin should consult the interpreters and the relevant laws and act according to their guidance. Those who meet their end in this manner should be buried alone, with no one beside them; they should receive an inglorious burial at the borders of the twelve districts of the land, in uncultivated and nameless locations, and their burial site should not have any column or inscription to mark it. If an animal causes the death of someone, except in the case of such an incident occurring during public contests, the relatives of the deceased should pursue the slayer for murder, and the guardians of the land, as many as the relatives appoint, should hear the case. If the animal is condemned, it should be killed by them and disposed of beyond the borders. If an inanimate object causes a man's death—except for a thunderbolt or another lethal force sent from the Gods—whether a person is killed by objects falling on them or by falling onto them, the nearest relative should choose the closest neighbor to act as a judge, thereby clearing themselves and their family of guilt. They should then cast the offending object beyond the border, similar to the procedure with animals.
If a man is found dead, and his murderer be unknown, and after a diligent search cannot be detected, there shall be the same proclamation as in the previous cases, and the same interdict on the murderer; and having proceeded against him, they shall proclaim in the agora by a herald, that he who has slain such and such a person, and has been convicted of murder, shall not set his foot in the temples, nor at all in the country of the murdered man, and if he appears and is discovered, he shall die, and be cast forth unburied beyond the border. Let this one law then be laid down by us about murder; and let cases of this sort be so regarded.
If a man is found dead and his murderer is unknown, and after a thorough search he cannot be found, there will be the same announcement as in previous cases, and the same ban on the murderer; and after pursuing him, a herald will announce in the public square that whoever has killed this person and has been found guilty of murder shall not enter the temples or step foot in the land of the victim. If he shows up and is caught, he shall die and be buried outside the border. Let this be the law we establish regarding murder, and let such cases be treated this way.
And now let us say in what cases and under what circumstances the murderer is rightly free from guilt: If a man catch a thief coming into his house by night to steal, and he take and kill him, or if he slay a footpad in self-defence, he shall be guiltless. And any one who does violence to a free woman or a youth, shall be slain with impunity by the injured person, or by his or her father or brothers or sons. If a man find his wife suffering violence, he may kill the violator, and be guiltless in the eye of the law; or if a person kill another in warding off death from his father or mother or children or brethren or wife who are doing no wrong, he shall assuredly be guiltless.
And now let's discuss when and under what circumstances someone who kills can be considered not guilty: If a person catches a thief breaking into their house at night and kills him, or if he kills someone attacking him in self-defense, he will not be held guilty. Anyone who assaults a free woman or a young person can be killed without consequences by the victim or by their father, brothers, or sons. If a man sees his wife being attacked, he can kill the attacker and will be considered not guilty by the law; or if someone kills another person to protect their father, mother, children, or siblings who are not in the wrong, that person will certainly be seen as not guilty.
Thus much as to the nurture and education of the living soul of man, having which, he can, and without which, if he unfortunately be without them, he cannot live; and also concerning the punishments which are to be inflicted for violent deaths, let thus much be enacted. Of the nurture and education of the body we have spoken before, and next in order we have to speak of deeds of violence, voluntary and involuntary, which men do to one another; these we will now distinguish, as far as we are able, according to their nature and number, and determine what will be the suitable penalties of each, and so assign to them their proper place in the series of our enactments. The poorest legislator will have no difficulty in determining that wounds and mutilations arising out of wounds should follow next in order after deaths. Let wounds be divided as homicides were divided—into those which are involuntary, and which are given in passion or from fear, and those inflicted voluntarily and with premeditation. Concerning all this, we must make some such proclamation as the following: Mankind must have laws, and conform to them, or their life would be as bad as that of the most savage beast. And the reason of this is that no man's nature is able to know what is best for human society; or knowing, always able and willing to do what is best. In the first place, there is a difficulty in apprehending that the true art of politics is concerned, not with private but with public good (for public good binds together states, but private only distracts them); and that both the public and private good as well of individuals as of states is greater when the state and not the individual is first considered. In the second place, although a person knows in the abstract that this is true, yet if he be possessed of absolute and irresponsible power, he will never remain firm in his principles or persist in regarding the public good as primary in the state, and the private good as secondary. Human nature will be always drawing him into avarice and selfishness, avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure without any reason, and will bring these to the front, obscuring the juster and better; and so working darkness in his soul will at last fill with evils both him and the whole city. For if a man were born so divinely gifted that he could naturally apprehend the truth, he would have no need of laws to rule over him; for there is no law or order which is above knowledge, nor can mind, without impiety, be deemed the subject or slave of any man, but rather the lord of all. I speak of mind, true and free, and in harmony with nature. But then there is no such mind anywhere, or at least not much; and therefore we must choose law and order, which are second best. These look at things as they exist for the most part only, and are unable to survey the whole of them. And therefore I have spoken as I have.
Here's the updated text: So, we've talked about nurturing and educating the human soul. It's essential for life; without it, one cannot truly live. We also need to discuss the consequences for violent deaths. We've previously covered the nurture and education of the body, and now we’ll focus on acts of violence—both voluntary and involuntary—that people commit against one another. We'll categorize these acts based on their nature and frequency, and decide on appropriate penalties for each, placing them correctly within our laws. Even the least experienced legislator can see that wounds and mutilations should come next after deaths in terms of legal consequences. Let’s categorize wounds as we did homicides—into those that are involuntary, often caused by passion or fear, and those that are inflicted deliberately and with intent. Regarding all of this, we need to declare something like this: Humanity needs laws and must adhere to them, or life would be as terrible as that of the most savage beast. The reason is that no one can fully understand what's best for society; or, even if they do, they often aren't able or willing to act on it. Firstly, it’s hard to grasp that the true art of politics focuses on the public good, not just private interests (because public good unifies states, while private concerns tend to create division). Secondly, even if someone acknowledges this idea in theory, if they wield absolute power without restraint, they won’t consistently prioritize public good over private interests. Human nature tends toward greed and selfishness, avoiding pain and seeking pleasure irrationally, which can overshadow fairness and quality in decision-making, ultimately leading to harm for both themselves and their community. If someone somehow possessed the ability to intuitively grasp the truth, they would need no laws governing them; no law or order surpasses knowledge, and reason should never be regarded as subservient to others but instead as supreme. I'm referring to a true, free mind that aligns with nature. However, such minds are rare, if they exist at all, which is why we must rely on laws and order, the next best thing. These frameworks typically focus on the immediate circumstances rather than the bigger picture, which explains my previous statements.
And now we will determine what penalty he ought to pay or suffer who has hurt or wounded another. Any one may easily imagine the questions which have to be asked in all such cases: What did he wound, or whom, or how, or when? for there are innumerable particulars of this sort which greatly vary from one another. And to allow courts of law to determine all these things, or not to determine any of them, is alike impossible. There is one particular which they must determine in all cases—the question of fact. And then, again, that the legislator should not permit them to determine what punishment is to be inflicted in any of these cases, but should himself decide about all of them, small or great, is next to impossible.
And now we will decide what penalty someone should face for hurting or injuring another person. It's easy to imagine the questions that need to be asked in such cases: What or who was wounded, how did it happen, or when did it take place? There are countless specifics that can vary greatly from one instance to another. Allowing courts to figure out all these details, or not addressing any of them, is basically impossible. There is one detail they must clarify in every case—the question of fact. Additionally, it is nearly impossible for the lawmaker to just let the courts decide the punishment for any of these cases, big or small, without taking responsibility for those decisions himself.
CLEINIAS: Then what is to be the inference?
CLEINIAS: So, what should we conclude?
ATHENIAN: The inference is, that some things should be left to courts of law; others the legislator must decide for himself.
ATHENIAN: The conclusion is that some matters should be handled by the courts, while others must be decided by the legislator himself.
CLEINIAS: And what ought the legislator to decide, and what ought he to leave to the courts of law?
CLEINIAS: So what should the lawmaker decide, and what should he leave for the courts?
ATHENIAN: I may reply, that in a state in which the courts are bad and mute, because the judges conceal their opinions and decide causes clandestinely; or what is worse, when they are disorderly and noisy, as in a theatre, clapping or hooting in turn this or that orator—I say that then there is a very serious evil, which affects the whole state. Unfortunate is the necessity of having to legislate for such courts, but where the necessity exists, the legislator should only allow them to ordain the penalties for the smallest offences; if the state for which he is legislating be of this character, he must take most matters into his own hands and speak distinctly. But when a state has good courts, and the judges are well trained and scrupulously tested, the determination of the penalties or punishments which shall be inflicted on the guilty may fairly and with advantage be left to them. And we are not to be blamed for not legislating concerning all that large class of matters which judges far worse educated than ours would be able to determine, assigning to each offence what is due both to the perpetrator and to the sufferer. We believe those for whom we are legislating to be best able to judge, and therefore to them the greater part may be left. At the same time, as I have often said, we should exhibit to the judges, as we have done, the outline and form of the punishments to be inflicted, and then they will not transgress the just rule. That was an excellent practice, which we observed before, and which now that we are resuming the work of legislation, may with advantage be repeated by us.
ATHENIAN: I can say that in a state where the courts are unreliable and silent because the judges hide their opinions and secretly decide cases; or worse, when they are chaotic and loud, like in a theatre, cheering or booing this or that speaker—I say this is a serious problem that affects the whole state. It’s unfortunate that we have to create laws for such courts, but where that necessity exists, the legislator should only allow them to determine the penalties for minor offenses. If the state for which he is legislating is like this, he must take most matters into his own hands and speak clearly. However, when a state has good courts, and the judges are well trained and carefully evaluated, the determination of penalties or punishments for the guilty can fairly and wisely be left to them. We shouldn’t be criticized for not legislating on every single matter that judges who are less educated than ours could handle, assigning appropriate consequences for each offense to both the perpetrator and the victim. We believe those we are legislating for are the best judges, so most matters can be left to them. At the same time, as I’ve mentioned before, we should show the judges the general outline and structure of the punishments to be given, so they don't stray from the just rule. That was a great practice that we followed before, and now that we're returning to the task of legislation, it would be beneficial to repeat it.
Let the enactment about wounding be in the following terms: If any one has a purpose and intention to slay another who is not his enemy, and whom the law does not permit him to slay, and he wounds him, but is unable to kill him, he who had the intent and has wounded him is not to be pitied—he deserves no consideration, but should be regarded as a murderer and be tried for murder. Still having respect to the fortune which has in a manner favoured him, and to the providence which in pity to him and to the wounded man saved the one from a fatal blow, and the other from an accursed fate and calamity—as a thank-offering to this deity, and in order not to oppose his will—in such a case the law will remit the punishment of death, and only compel the offender to emigrate to a neighbouring city for the rest of his life, where he shall remain in the enjoyment of all his possessions. But if he have injured the wounded man, he shall make such compensation for the injury as the court deciding the cause shall assess, and the same judges shall decide who would have decided if the man had died of his wounds. And if a child intentionally wound his parents, or a servant his master, death shall be the penalty. And if a brother or a sister intentionally wound a brother or a sister, and is found guilty, death shall be the penalty. And if a husband wound a wife, or a wife a husband, with intent to kill, let him or her undergo perpetual exile; if they have sons or daughters who are still young, the guardians shall take care of their property, and have charge of the children as orphans. If their sons are grown up, they shall be under no obligation to support the exiled parent, but they shall possess the property themselves. And if he who meets with such a misfortune has no children, the kindred of the exiled man to the degree of sons of cousins, both on the male and female side, shall meet together, and after taking counsel with the guardians of the law and the priests, shall appoint a 5040th citizen to be the heir of the house, considering and reasoning that no house of all the 5040 belongs to the inhabitant or to the whole family, but is the public and private property of the state. Now the state should seek to have its houses as holy and happy as possible. And if any one of the houses be unfortunate, and stained with impiety, and the owner leave no posterity, but dies unmarried, or married and childless, having suffered death as the penalty of murder or some other crime committed against the Gods or against his fellow-citizens, of which death is the penalty distinctly laid down in the law; or if any of the citizens be in perpetual exile, and also childless, that house shall first of all be purified and undergo expiation according to law; and then let the kinsmen of the house, as we were just now saying, and the guardians of the law, meet and consider what family there is in the state which is of the highest repute for virtue and also for good fortune, in which there are a number of sons; from that family let them take one and introduce him to the father and forefathers of the dead man as their son, and, for the sake of the omen, let him be called so, that he may be the continuer of their family, the keeper of their hearth, and the minister of their sacred rites with better fortune than his father had; and when they have made this supplication, they shall make him heir according to law, and the offending person they shall leave nameless and childless and portionless when calamities such as these overtake him.
Let the laws regarding wounding be stated as follows: If someone intends to kill another person who is not an enemy and whom the law does not allow them to kill, and they wound that person but fail to kill them, the person who intended to kill and caused the wound shouldn’t be pitied. They deserve no sympathy and should be treated as a murderer and face murder charges. However, acknowledging the fortunate circumstances that in a way spared them, and the divine providence that saved one from a fatal injury, and the other from a terrible fate, the law will reduce the death penalty. Instead, the offender will be required to move to a neighboring city for the rest of their life, where they can keep their possessions. If they injured the wounded person, they must compensate the injured party according to what the court decides, and the same judges will make a decision as if the injured person had died from their wounds. If a child intentionally wounds their parents, or a servant wounds their master, the penalty will be death. If a sibling intentionally wounds another sibling and is found guilty, the penalty will also be death. If a husband wounds his wife, or a wife wounds her husband with the intent to kill, they will face lifelong exile; if they have young children, the guardians will manage their property and care for the kids as orphans. If their children are grown, they aren’t required to support the exiled parent but will inherit the property themselves. If someone experiences this misfortune and has no children, the relatives of the exiled person, extending to the level of cousins on both sides, will gather together. After consulting with legal guardians and priests, they will appoint a 5040th citizen as the heir to the home, acknowledging that the houses belonging to the inhabitants or their families are actually public and private property of the state. The state should aim for its houses to be as sacred and prosperous as possible. If any house becomes unfortunate and tainted with wrongdoing, and the owner dies without heirs—either unmarried or childless, having faced death for murder or any other crime punishable by law; or if any citizens are in permanent exile and also childless, that house must first be purified and undergo legal expiation. Then, the relatives of the house, as previously mentioned, and the guardians of the law will meet to consider which family in the state has the highest reputation for virtue and good fortune, particularly one with many sons. From that family, they will select one to be introduced to the deceased’s family as their son, for the sake of tradition. He will be designated to continue their lineage, maintain their household, and oversee their sacred rituals with better luck than his predecessor. After this ritual, they will legally make him the heir, while the individual who caused the misfortune will remain nameless, childless, and without inheritance when such disasters befall them.
Now the boundaries of some things do not touch one another, but there is a borderland which comes in between, preventing them from touching. And we were saying that actions done from passion are of this nature, and come in between the voluntary and involuntary. If a person be convicted of having inflicted wounds in a passion, in the first place he shall pay twice the amount of the injury, if the wound be curable, or, if incurable, four times the amount of the injury; or if the wound be curable, and at the same time cause great and notable disgrace to the wounded person, he shall pay fourfold. And whenever any one in wounding another injures not only the sufferer, but also the city, and makes him incapable of defending his country against the enemy, he, besides the other penalties, shall pay a penalty for the loss which the state has incurred. And the penalty shall be, that in addition to his own times of service, he shall serve on behalf of the disabled person, and shall take his place in war; or, if he refuse, he shall be liable to be convicted by law of refusal to serve. The compensation for the injury, whether to be twofold or threefold or fourfold, shall be fixed by the judges who convict him. And if, in like manner, a brother wounds a brother, the parents and kindred of either sex, including the children of cousins, whether on the male or female side, shall meet, and when they have judged the cause, they shall entrust the assessment of damages to the parents, as is natural; and if the estimate be disputed, then the kinsmen on the male side shall make the estimate, or if they cannot, they shall commit the matter to the guardians of the law. And when similar charges of wounding are brought by children against their parents, those who are more than sixty years of age, having children of their own, not adopted, shall be required to decide; and if any one is convicted, they shall determine whether he or she ought to die, or suffer some other punishment either greater than death, or, at any rate, not much less. A kinsman of the offender shall not be allowed to judge the cause, not even if he be of the age which is prescribed by the law. If a slave in a fit of anger wound a freeman, the owner of the slave shall give him up to the wounded man, who may do as he pleases with him, and if he do not give him up he shall himself make good the injury. And if any one says that the slave and the wounded man are conspiring together, let him argue the point, and if he is cast, he shall pay for the wrong three times over, but if he gains his case, the freeman who conspired with the slave shall be liable to an action for kidnapping. And if any one unintentionally wounds another he shall simply pay for the harm, for no legislator is able to control chance. In such a case the judges shall be the same as those who are appointed in the case of children suing their parents; and they shall estimate the amount of the injury.
Now, some things don’t directly connect, but there’s a space in between that keeps them apart. We were saying that actions driven by passion fall into this category, sitting between voluntary and involuntary actions. If someone is found guilty of inflicting wounds in a fit of passion, they must first pay double the amount of the injury if the wound can heal, or, if it’s permanent, four times the amount of the injury; or if the wound is curable but also causes significant shame to the victim, they’ll pay four times. Moreover, if someone injures another person and also harms the community, making the victim unable to defend their country against enemies, they will face additional penalties and also pay for the loss the state suffers. This penalty means that, in addition to their own service time, they’ll have to serve in place of the injured person and fight in their stead; if they refuse, they could be legally convicted for not serving. The compensation for injuries, whether it’s double, triple, or quadruple, will be decided by the judges who convict the person. If one brother harms another, the parents and relatives of either side, including cousins' children, will come together to judge the case and assign damages to the parents as is standard; if there’s a dispute over the estimate, then the male relatives will determine it, or if they can’t, they’ll hand it over to the legal guardians. When similar injury claims come from children against their parents, those over sixty years old with biological children (not adopted) will be required to decide; if someone is found guilty, they’ll determine if the punishment should be death, or some punishment greater than death or at least very severe. A relative of the offender cannot judge the case, regardless of whether they meet the age requirement set by law. If a slave, angry, injures a free person, the slave’s owner must hand them over to the injured party, who can deal with them as they wish; if the owner doesn’t hand them over, they’ll have to compensate for the injury. If anyone claims that the slave and the injured person are in cahoots, they can argue that point; if they lose the case, they’ll pay three times for the wrongdoing, but if they win, the free person who conspired with the slave will face charges for kidnapping. Lastly, if someone unintentionally harms another, they simply need to compensate for the damage since no lawmaker can regulate chance. In this case, the judges will be the same as those appointed for children suing their parents, and they will determine the amount of damage.
All the preceding injuries and every kind of assault are deeds of violence; and every man, woman, or child ought to consider that the elder has the precedence of the younger in honour, both among the Gods and also among men who would live in security and happiness. Wherefore it is a foul thing and hateful to the Gods to see an elder man assaulted by a younger in the city, and it is reasonable that a young man when struck by an elder should lightly endure his anger, laying up in store for himself a like honour when he is old. Let this be the law: Every one shall reverence his elder in word and deed; he shall respect any one who is twenty years older than himself, whether male or female, regarding him or her as his father or mother; and he shall abstain from laying hands on any one who is of an age to have been his father or mother, out of reverence to the Gods who preside over birth; similarly he shall keep his hands from a stranger, whether he be an old inhabitant or newly arrived; he shall not venture to correct such an one by blows, either as the aggressor or in self-defence. If he thinks that some stranger has struck him out of wantonness or insolence, and ought to be punished, he shall take him to the wardens of the city, but let him not strike him, that the stranger may be kept far away from the possibility of lifting up his hand against a citizen, and let the wardens of the city take the offender and examine him, not forgetting their duty to the God of Strangers, and in case the stranger appears to have struck the citizen unjustly, let them inflict upon him as many blows with the scourge as he was himself inflicted, and quell his presumption. But if he be innocent, they shall threaten and rebuke the man who arrested him, and let them both go. If a person strikes another of the same age or somewhat older than himself, who has no children, whether he be an old man who strikes an old man or a young man who strikes a young man, let the person struck defend himself in the natural way without a weapon and with his hands only. He who, being more than forty years of age, dares to fight with another, whether he be the aggressor or in self-defence, shall be regarded as rude and ill-mannered and slavish—this will be a disgraceful punishment, and therefore suitable to him. The obedient nature will readily yield to such exhortations, but the disobedient, who heeds not the prelude, shall have the law ready for him: If any man smite another who is older than himself, either by twenty or by more years, in the first place, he who is at hand, not being younger than the combatants, nor their equal in age, shall separate them, or be disgraced according to law; but if he be the equal in age of the person who is struck or younger, he shall defend the person injured as he would a brother or father or still older relative. Further, let him who dares to smite an elder be tried for assault, as I have said, and if he be found guilty, let him be imprisoned for a period of not less than a year, or if the judges approve of a longer period, their decision shall be final. But if a stranger or metic smite one who is older by twenty years or more, the same law shall hold about the bystanders assisting, and he who is found guilty in such a suit, if he be a stranger but not resident, shall be imprisoned during a period of two years; and a metic who disobeys the laws shall be imprisoned for three years, unless the court assign him a longer term. And let him who was present in any of these cases and did not assist according to law be punished, if he be of the highest class, by paying a fine of a mina; or if he be of the second class, of fifty drachmas; or if of the third class, by a fine of thirty drachmas; or if he be of the fourth class, by a fine of twenty drachmas; and the generals and taxiarchs and phylarchs and hipparchs shall form the court in such cases.
All the previous injuries and all types of attacks are acts of violence; and every man, woman, or child should understand that the older person has more honor than the younger one, both among the gods and among people who want to live in peace and happiness. Therefore, it's a disgraceful and detestable thing to see an elder man attacked by a younger one in the city, and it’s reasonable for a young man, when struck by an elder, to tolerate their anger, saving up respect for himself when he gets older. This should be the rule: Everyone must honor their elders in word and action; they should respect anyone who is at least twenty years older than themselves, whether male or female, considering them as their own father or mother; and they should refrain from laying hands on anyone who is old enough to be their parent, out of respect for the gods who oversee birth; similarly, they must keep their hands off strangers, whether they are long-time residents or newly arrived; they should not think of hitting such a person, either as the attacker or in self-defense. If they believe that a stranger has hit them out of malice or arrogance and deserves punishment, they should take the matter to the city wardens instead of hitting back, to ensure the stranger is kept from the chance of raising a hand against a citizen, and the wardens should take the offender and investigate, remembering their responsibility to the God of Strangers. If it seems that the stranger unjustly harmed the citizen, they should give him as many lashes as he inflicted, to curb his arrogance. But if he is innocent, they should reprimand the person who accused him and then let them both go. If someone strikes another person who is about the same age or slightly older, and that person doesn’t have children—whether it’s an older man hitting an older man or a young man hitting a young man—then the one who is hit should defend themselves naturally, using only their hands and no weapons. Whoever, being over forty years old, dares to fight with someone else, whether they're the aggressor or acting in self-defense, will be seen as rude, ill-mannered, and submissive; this will be a disgraceful punishment, making it fitting for them. Those who are obedient will easily follow such advice, but those who are disobedient and ignore the warning will face the law: If anyone hits someone older than them, by twenty years or more, first, anyone present who is not younger than either combatant, nor equal in age, must separate them, or face disgrace under the law; but if they are the same age as the one who was struck or younger, they must defend the injured person as they would a brother, father, or older relative. Moreover, anyone who dares to hit an elder should be tried for assault, and if found guilty, should be imprisoned for at least a year, or if the judges agree on a longer term, their decision will stand. But if a stranger or metic hits someone who is at least twenty years their senior, the same rule applies for bystanders to intervene, and if found guilty in such a case, a stranger who is not a resident will be imprisoned for two years; and a metic who breaks the laws will be imprisoned for three years unless the court decides on a longer sentence. And anyone who was present in any of these situations and did not assist as the law requires will face punishment: if they're of the highest class, a fine of a mina; if of the second class, fifty drachmas; if of the third class, thirty drachmas; and if of the fourth class, twenty drachmas; and the generals, taxiarchs, phylarchs, and hipparchs will form the court in these cases.
Laws are partly framed for the sake of good men, in order to instruct them how they may live on friendly terms with one another, and partly for the sake of those who refuse to be instructed, whose spirit cannot be subdued, or softened, or hindered from plunging into evil. These are the persons who cause the word to be spoken which I am about to utter; for them the legislator legislates of necessity, and in the hope that there may be no need of his laws. He who shall dare to lay violent hands upon his father or mother, or any still older relative, having no fear either of the wrath of the Gods above, or of the punishments that are spoken of in the world below, but transgresses in contempt of ancient and universal traditions as though he were too wise to believe in them, requires some extreme measure of prevention. Now death is not the worst that can happen to men; far worse are the punishments which are said to pursue them in the world below. But although they are most true tales, they work on such souls no prevention; for if they had any effect there would be no slayers of mothers, or impious hands lifted up against parents; and therefore the punishments of this world which are inflicted during life ought not in such cases to fall short, if possible, of the terrors of the world below. Let our enactment then be as follows: If a man dare to strike his father or his mother, or their fathers or mothers, he being at the time of sound mind, then let any one who is at hand come to the rescue as has been already said, and the metic or stranger who comes to the rescue shall be called to the first place in the games; but if he do not come he shall suffer the punishment of perpetual exile. He who is not a metic, if he comes to the rescue, shall have praise, and if he do not come, blame. And if a slave come to the rescue, let him be made free, but if he do not come to the rescue, let him receive 100 strokes of the whip, by order of the wardens of the agora, if the occurrence take place in the agora; or if somewhere in the city beyond the limits of the agora, any warden of the city who is in residence shall punish him; or if in the country, then the commanders of the wardens of the country. If those who are near at the time be inhabitants of the same place, whether they be youths, or men, or women, let them come to the rescue and denounce him as the impious one; and he who does not come to the rescue shall fall under the curse of Zeus, the God of kindred and of ancestors, according to law. And if any one is found guilty of assaulting a parent, let him in the first place be forever banished from the city into the country, and let him abstain from the temples; and if he do not abstain, the wardens of the country shall punish him with blows, or in any way which they please, and if he return he shall be put to death. And if any freeman eat or drink, or have any other sort of intercourse with him, or only meeting him have voluntarily touched him, he shall not enter into any temple, nor into the agora, nor into the city, until he is purified; for he should consider that he has become tainted by a curse. And if he disobeys the law, and pollutes the city and the temples contrary to law, and one of the magistrates sees him and does not indict him, when he gives in his account this omission shall be a most serious charge.
Laws are partly created for the benefit of good people, to guide them on how to get along with each other, and partly for those who refuse to be guided, whose will cannot be broken, softened, or stopped from doing wrong. These are the people who inspire the words I’m about to say; for them the lawmakers must create laws, hoping there will be no need for them. Anyone who dares to violently attack their father or mother, or any older family member, without fearing the wrath of the gods above or the punishments described in the afterlife, shows disdain for old and universal customs as if they were too wise to believe in them, needs some serious measures to be prevented. Death isn’t the worst fate for people; much worse are the punishments said to await them in the afterlife. Yet, even though these stories are true, they don't deter such people; if they did, there wouldn’t be any mothers killed or unholy hands raised against parents. Thus, the punishments in this world that are carried out during life should strive to be as severe as the fears of the afterlife. So let our law be this: If someone dares to hit their father or mother, or their grandparents, while in control of their mind, anyone nearby should come to their defense as previously stated, and any stranger who intervenes will be honored first in the games; but if they do not step in, they will face permanent exile. If a citizen steps in to help, they will be praised, but if they don't, they will be blamed. If a slave assists, they should be freed, but if they do not help, they should receive 100 lashes from the city officials if the incident occurs in the public square; if it takes place elsewhere in the city, any city official on duty will punish them; or if it’s in rural areas, the heads of the country wardens will do so. If those nearby are locals, whether young or old, men or women, they should come to the defense and denounce the offender as wicked; anyone who fails to assist will fall under the curse of Zeus, the god of family and ancestors, according to the law. If someone is convicted of attacking a parent, they should be forever banished from the city to the countryside and must stay away from the temples; if they refuse to do so, the country wardens will punish them however they wish, and if they return, they will be executed. If any free person eats or drinks with them, or engages in any other form of interaction, or even just touches them voluntarily during a meeting, they cannot enter any temple, the public square, or the city until they are purified; they should recognize that they have been tainted by a curse. If they disobey this law and contaminate the city and the temples unlawfully, and one of the magistrates sees them but fails to charge them, this oversight will be regarded as a very serious offense in their report.
If a slave strike a freeman, whether a stranger or a citizen, let any one who is present come to the rescue, or pay the penalty already mentioned; and let the bystanders bind him, and deliver him up to the injured person, and he receiving him shall put him in chains, and inflict on him as many stripes as he pleases; but having punished him he must surrender him to his master according to law, and not deprive him of his property. Let the law be as follows: The slave who strikes a freeman, not at the command of the magistrates, his owner shall receive bound from the man whom he has stricken, and not release him until the slave has persuaded the man whom he has stricken that he ought to be released. And let there be the same laws about women in relation to women, and about men and women in relation to one another.
If a slave hits a free person, whether they are a stranger or a citizen, anyone present should come to their aid or pay the penalty mentioned earlier. The bystanders should restrain the slave and hand them over to the injured party, who can then put the slave in chains and punish them however they see fit. However, after punishing, they must return the slave to their owner according to the law and not take away their property. The law should state that if a slave strikes a free person without being instructed by the authorities, the owner must accept the slave, bound, from the person who was struck and cannot release them until the slave convinces the injured person that they should be freed. The same rules should apply to women regarding other women, and to interactions between men and women.
BOOK X.
And now having spoken of assaults, let us sum up all acts of violence under a single law, which shall be as follows: No one shall take or carry away any of his neighbour's goods, neither shall he use anything which is his neighbour's without the consent of the owner; for these are the offences which are and have been, and will ever be, the source of all the aforesaid evils. The greatest of them are excesses and insolences of youth, and are offences against the greatest when they are done against religion; and especially great when in violation of public and holy rites, or of the partly-common rites in which tribes and phratries share; and in the second degree great when they are committed against private rites and sepulchres, and in the third degree (not to repeat the acts formerly mentioned), when insults are offered to parents; the fourth kind of violence is when any one, regardless of the authority of the rulers, takes or carries away or makes use of anything which belongs to them, not having their consent; and the fifth kind is when the violation of the civil rights of an individual demands reparation. There should be a common law embracing all these cases. For we have already said in general terms what shall be the punishment of sacrilege, whether fraudulent or violent, and now we have to determine what is to be the punishment of those who speak or act insolently toward the Gods. But first we must give them an admonition which may be in the following terms: No one who in obedience to the laws believed that there were Gods, ever intentionally did any unholy act, or uttered any unlawful word; but he who did must have supposed one of three things—either that they did not exist—which is the first possibility, or secondly, that, if they did, they took no care of man, or thirdly, that they were easily appeased and turned aside from their purpose by sacrifices and prayers.
And now that we've talked about assaults, let's summarize all acts of violence under one law: No one should take or carry away any of their neighbor's property, nor use anything that belongs to someone else without the owner's permission; these are the offenses that have been and always will be the source of all the aforementioned problems. The most serious ones are the excesses and disrespect of youth, especially when they are directed against what is sacred; it’s especially severe when it involves public and holy ceremonies, or the shared customs of tribes and clans; it is serious when it involves private ceremonies and graves, and less so when insults are directed at parents. The fourth type of violence occurs when someone disregards the authority of leaders and takes or uses anything that belongs to them without consent; the fifth is when a person's civil rights are violated and require compensation. There should be a common law covering all these situations. We have already outlined the punishment for sacrilege, whether it’s deceitful or forceful, and now we need to decide the punishment for those who speak or act disrespectfully towards the Gods. But first, we should remind them that no one who truly believed in the laws and the existence of the Gods ever intentionally committed any unholy act or said any unlawful word; those who did must have thought one of three things—either that the Gods didn’t exist, which is the first possibility; or, if they did exist, that they didn’t care about humans; or thirdly, that they could easily be satisfied and swayed from their intentions by offerings and prayers.
CLEINIAS: What shall we say or do to these persons?
CLEINIAS: What should we say or do to these people?
ATHENIAN: My good friend, let us first hear the jests which I suspect that they in their superiority will utter against us.
ATHENIAN: My good friend, let's first listen to the jokes I think they’ll make about us from their high horse.
CLEINIAS: What jests?
CLEINIAS: What jokes?
ATHENIAN: They will make some irreverent speech of this sort: 'O inhabitants of Athens, and Sparta, and Cnosus,' they will reply, 'in that you speak truly; for some of us deny the very existence of the Gods, while others, as you say, are of opinion that they do not care about us; and others that they are turned from their course by gifts. Now we have a right to claim, as you yourself allowed, in the matter of laws, that before you are hard upon us and threaten us, you should argue with us and convince us—you should first attempt to teach and persuade us that there are Gods by reasonable evidences, and also that they are too good to be unrighteous, or to be propitiated, or turned from their course by gifts. For when we hear such things said of them by those who are esteemed to be the best of poets, and orators, and prophets, and priests, and by innumerable others, the thoughts of most of us are not set upon abstaining from unrighteous acts, but upon doing them and atoning for them. When lawgivers profess that they are gentle and not stern, we think that they should first of all use persuasion to us, and show us the existence of Gods, if not in a better manner than other men, at any rate in a truer; and who knows but that we shall hearken to you? If then our request is a fair one, please to accept our challenge.
ATHENIAN: They will say something disrespectful like this: 'Oh, people of Athens, Sparta, and Cnosus,' they will respond, 'you speak the truth; some of us deny the existence of the Gods, while others, as you pointed out, believe that they don't care about us; and others think they are swayed from their path by gifts. We have the right to assert, as you yourself suggested regarding the laws, that before you come down hard on us and threaten us, you should engage with us and convince us—you should first try to teach and persuade us that there are Gods with reasonable evidence, and that they are good enough to be just, or to be swayed by gifts. Because when we hear such things about them from those considered the best poets, orators, prophets, and priests, and from countless others, most of us aren't focused on avoiding wrongdoing, but on committing it and making amends. When lawmakers claim to be gentle rather than harsh, we believe they should primarily use persuasion with us and demonstrate the existence of Gods—not necessarily in a better way than others, but in a truer way; and who knows, maybe we will listen to you? If our request is reasonable, please accept our challenge.
CLEINIAS: But is there any difficulty in proving the existence of the Gods?
CLEINIAS: But is there any problem in proving that the Gods exist?
ATHENIAN: How would you prove it?
ATHENIAN: How would you show that?
CLEINIAS: How? In the first place, the earth and the sun, and the stars and the universe, and the fair order of the seasons, and the division of them into years and months, furnish proofs of their existence, and also there is the fact that all Hellenes and barbarians believe in them.
CLEINIAS: How? First of all, the earth, the sun, the stars, the universe, the beautiful cycle of the seasons, and the way they are divided into years and months all provide evidence of their existence. Plus, there’s the fact that all Greeks and non-Greeks believe in them.
ATHENIAN: I fear, my sweet friend, though I will not say that I much regard, the contempt with which the profane will be likely to assail us. For you do not understand the nature of their complaint, and you fancy that they rush into impiety only from a love of sensual pleasure.
ATHENIAN: I worry, my dear friend, although I won’t say that I care too much about it, about the disdain with which the disrespectful will probably attack us. You don’t understand the nature of their complaint, and you think they dive into godlessness just because they love physical pleasure.
CLEINIAS: Why, Stranger, what other reason is there?
CLEINIAS: Why, Stranger, what other reason could there be?
ATHENIAN: One which you who live in a different atmosphere would never guess.
ATHENIAN: Something that you, living in a different environment, would never guess.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: A very grievous sort of ignorance which is imagined to be the greatest wisdom.
ATHENIAN: A deeply troubling kind of ignorance that people think is the highest form of wisdom.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: At Athens there are tales preserved in writing which the virtue of your state, as I am informed, refuses to admit. They speak of the Gods in prose as well as verse, and the oldest of them tell of the origin of the heavens and of the world, and not far from the beginning of their story they proceed to narrate the birth of the Gods, and how after they were born they behaved to one another. Whether these stories have in other ways a good or a bad influence, I should not like to be severe upon them, because they are ancient; but, looking at them with reference to the duties of children to their parents, I cannot praise them, or think that they are useful, or at all true. Of the words of the ancients I have nothing more to say; and I should wish to say of them only what is pleasing to the Gods. But as to our younger generation and their wisdom, I cannot let them off when they do mischief. For do but mark the effect of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods, and produce the sun, moon, stars, and earth, claiming for them a divine being, if we would listen to the aforesaid philosophers we should say that they are earth and stones only, which can have no care at all of human affairs, and that all religion is a cooking up of words and a make-believe.
ATHENIAN: In Athens, there are written stories that, as I understand, your society tends to reject. They talk about the Gods in both prose and poetry, and the oldest ones explain the origins of the heavens and the world. Not long after they start, they describe the birth of the Gods and how they interacted with each other once they were born. Whether these stories have a positive or negative influence, I don't want to be too harsh on them because they are ancient; however, when I consider them in relation to children's responsibilities towards their parents, I can't endorse them or believe they are beneficial or even true. I have nothing more to say about the ancients, and I wish to speak about them only in a way that pleases the Gods. But regarding our younger generation and their wisdom, I can't give them a pass when they cause harm. Just take note of the impact of their words: when you and I argue for the existence of the Gods and point to the sun, moon, stars, and earth, attributing a divine nature to them, if we were to listen to those philosophers, we would conclude that they are just earth and stones, which have no interest in human affairs at all, and that all religion is merely a fabrication of words and make-believe.
CLEINIAS: One such teacher, O stranger, would be bad enough, and you imply that there are many of them, which is worse.
CLEINIAS: One such teacher, stranger, would be bad enough, and you suggest that there are many of them, which is even worse.
ATHENIAN: Well, then; what shall we say or do? Shall we assume that some one is accusing us among unholy men, who are trying to escape from the effect of our legislation; and that they say of us—How dreadful that you should legislate on the supposition that there are Gods! Shall we make a defence of ourselves? or shall we leave them and return to our laws, lest the prelude should become longer than the law? For the discourse will certainly extend to great length, if we are to treat the impiously disposed as they desire, partly demonstrating to them at some length the things of which they demand an explanation, partly making them afraid or dissatisfied, and then proceed to the requisite enactments.
ATHENIAN: So, what should we say or do? Should we assume that someone is accusing us among those who are trying to dodge the consequences of our laws? And that they’re saying—How awful that you would create laws based on the idea that there are Gods! Should we defend ourselves, or should we just ignore them and stick to our laws, so that the discussion doesn’t go on longer than necessary? Because the conversation will definitely drag on if we try to engage with those who are disrespectful, explaining things to them as they want, and then turning them either scared or unhappy, before we get to the necessary rules.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger; but then how often have we repeated already that on the present occasion there is no reason why brevity should be preferred to length; for who is 'at our heels?' as the saying goes, and it would be paltry and ridiculous to prefer the shorter to the better. It is a matter of no small consequence, in some way or other to prove that there are Gods, and that they are good, and regard justice more than men do. The demonstration of this would be the best and noblest prelude of all our laws. And therefore, without impatience, and without hurry, let us unreservedly consider the whole matter, summoning up all the power of persuasion which we possess.
CLEINIAS: Yes, Stranger; but how often have we already said that this time, there's no reason to choose brevity over length? After all, who is 'breathing down our necks?' as the saying goes, and it would be petty and absurd to prefer the shorter version to the better one. It’s really important to somehow prove that there are Gods, that they are good, and that they care about justice more than humans do. Showing this would be the best and most honorable introduction to all our laws. So, without impatience and without rushing, let’s fully explore the whole topic, using all the persuasive power we have.
ATHENIAN: Seeing you thus in earnest, I would fain offer up a prayer that I may succeed: but I must proceed at once. Who can be calm when he is called upon to prove the existence of the Gods? Who can avoid hating and abhorring the men who are and have been the cause of this argument; I speak of those who will not believe the tales which they have heard as babes and sucklings from their mothers and nurses, repeated by them both in jest and earnest, like charms, who have also heard them in the sacrificial prayers, and seen sights accompanying them—sights and sounds delightful to children—and their parents during the sacrifices showing an intense earnestness on behalf of their children and of themselves, and with eager interest talking to the Gods, and beseeching them, as though they were firmly convinced of their existence; who likewise see and hear the prostrations and invocations which are made by Hellenes and barbarians at the rising and setting of the sun and moon, in all the vicissitudes of life, not as if they thought that there were no Gods, but as if there could be no doubt of their existence, and no suspicion of their non-existence; when men, knowing all these things, despise them on no real grounds, as would be admitted by all who have any particle of intelligence, and when they force us to say what we are now saying, how can any one in gentle terms remonstrate with the like of them, when he has to begin by proving to them the very existence of the Gods? Yet the attempt must be made; for it would be unseemly that one half of mankind should go mad in their lust of pleasure, and the other half in their indignation at such persons. Our address to these lost and perverted natures should not be spoken in passion; let us suppose ourselves to select some one of them, and gently reason with him, smothering our anger: O my son, we will say to him, you are young, and the advance of time will make you reverse many of the opinions which you now hold. Wait awhile, and do not attempt to judge at present of the highest things; and that is the highest of which you now think nothing—to know the Gods rightly and to live accordingly. And in the first place let me indicate to you one point which is of great importance, and about which I cannot be deceived: You and your friends are not the first who have held this opinion about the Gods. There have always been persons more or less numerous who have had the same disorder. I have known many of them, and can tell you, that no one who had taken up in youth this opinion, that the Gods do not exist, ever continued in the same until he was old; the two other notions certainly do continue in some cases, but not in many; the notion, I mean, that the Gods exist, but take no heed of human things, and the other notion that they do take heed of them, but are easily propitiated with sacrifices and prayers. As to the opinion about the Gods which may some day become clear to you, I advise you to wait and consider if it be true or not; ask of others, and above all of the legislator. In the meantime take care that you do not offend against the Gods. For the duty of the legislator is and always will be to teach you the truth of these matters.
ATHENIAN: Seeing you so serious, I want to offer a prayer that I succeed, but I must move forward immediately. Who can stay calm when asked to prove the existence of the Gods? Who can avoid hating and despising those who have caused this debate? I’m referring to those who refuse to believe the stories they heard as children from their mothers and caregivers, repeated by them both playfully and seriously, like magic spells, who have also heard them in the prayers for sacrifices and experienced the accompanying sights—delightful sights and sounds for children—while their parents showed intense seriousness on behalf of their children and themselves, eagerly speaking to the Gods and pleading with them, as if they were truly convinced of their existence; who also witness the prostrations and invocations performed by Greeks and non-Greeks at sunrise and sunset, throughout the ups and downs of life, not as if they think there are no Gods, but as if there’s no doubt of their existence and no suspicion that they might not exist; when people, knowing all these things, disdain them without any real basis, as anyone with even a bit of intelligence would agree, and when they force us to say what we are now saying, how can anyone calmly reason with such individuals, starting by proving to them the very existence of the Gods? Yet the effort must be made; it wouldn’t be right for half of humanity to go crazy with their desire for pleasure while the other half is furious at such individuals. Our approach to these lost and misguided souls shouldn’t be full of passion; let’s imagine selecting one of them and gently discussing things with him, suppressing our anger: “Oh my son,” we would say to him, “you are young, and as time goes on, you will change many of the opinions you currently hold. Just wait a bit and don’t rush to judge the most important matters; the most significant of those you currently disregard is to truly know the Gods and live accordingly. First, let me point out something crucial, which I know to be true: You and your friends are not the first to hold this view about the Gods. There have always been more or fewer individuals who shared this disillusionment. I’ve known many and can tell you that no one who believed in their youth that the Gods don’t exist has continued to think the same way into old age; the other two beliefs do persist in some cases, but not many—the belief that the Gods exist but disregard human affairs, and the belief that they do take notice but can be easily appeased with sacrifices and prayers. As for the belief about the Gods that may eventually become clear to you, I suggest waiting and evaluating whether it’s true or not; ask others, especially the lawmakers. In the meantime, be careful not to offend the Gods. For the responsibility of the legislator is and always will be to teach you the truth about these matters.
CLEINIAS: Our address, Stranger, thus far, is excellent.
CLEINIAS: Our location, Stranger, has been great so far.
ATHENIAN: Quite true, Megillus and Cleinias, but I am afraid that we have unconsciously lighted on a strange doctrine.
ATHENIAN: That's true, Megillus and Cleinias, but I'm afraid we have unintentionally stumbled upon a strange idea.
CLEINIAS: What doctrine do you mean?
CLEINIAS: Which doctrine are you talking about?
ATHENIAN: The wisest of all doctrines, in the opinion of many.
ATHENIAN: The smartest of all beliefs, according to many.
CLEINIAS: I wish that you would speak plainer.
CLEINIAS: I wish you would speak more clearly.
ATHENIAN: The doctrine that all things do become, have become, and will become, some by nature, some by art, and some by chance.
ATHENIAN: The idea that everything comes into existence, has come into existence, and will come into existence, some through nature, some through skill, and some by coincidence.
CLEINIAS: Is not that true?
CLEINIAS: Isn't that true?
ATHENIAN: Well, philosophers are probably right; at any rate we may as well follow in their track, and examine what is the meaning of them and their disciples.
ATHENIAN: Well, philosophers are probably right; in any case, we might as well follow their lead and look into what they and their followers really mean.
CLEINIAS: By all means.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: They say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art, which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial.
ATHENIAN: People say that the most amazing and beautiful things come from nature and chance, while the lesser things come from art. Art takes the greater and original creations from nature and shapes and transforms all those smaller works that we usually call artificial.
CLEINIAS: How is that?
CLEINIAS: What’s that about?
ATHENIAN: I will explain my meaning still more clearly. They say that fire and water, and earth and air, all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order—earth, and sun, and moon, and stars—they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them—of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. Art sprang up afterwards and out of these, mortal and of mortal birth, and produced in play certain images and very partial imitations of the truth, having an affinity to one another, such as music and painting create and their companion arts. And there are other arts which have a serious purpose, and these co-operate with nature, such, for example, as medicine, and husbandry, and gymnastic. And they say that politics co-operate with nature, but in a less degree, and have more of art; also that legislation is entirely a work of art, and is based on assumptions which are not true.
ATHENIAN: Let me clarify my point even further. They claim that fire, water, earth, and air all exist naturally and by chance, not through any artistic effort. They suggest that the bodies that follow—earth, sun, moon, and stars—were created solely through these completely lifeless elements. Each element moves by chance and some inherent force, based on certain affinities—like hot and cold, dry and moist, or soft and hard—along with all the other random mixtures of opposites that have come about through necessity. In this way, the entire universe has been created, along with everything in it, like animals and plants, as well as the seasons, all arising from these elements, not through the actions of a mind, a god, or art. Rather, as I said, it's all from nature and chance alone. Art emerged later, coming from these mortal elements, producing playful images and very limited imitations of the truth, like those created by music, painting, and their related arts. There are also other arts with serious purposes, which work alongside nature, such as medicine, farming, and athletics. They argue that politics works with nature too, but to a lesser extent, having more of an artistic element; and that legislation is entirely a creation of art, based on assumptions that aren't true.
CLEINIAS: How do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: In the first place, my dear friend, these people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made. These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might, and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions, these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them.
ATHENIAN: First of all, my dear friend, these people would argue that the Gods don’t exist naturally, but are rather creations of art and the laws of different states, which vary from place to place based on the agreements made by those who create them. They say that what is honorable differs naturally from what is considered honorable by law, and that the principles of justice don’t exist in nature at all. Instead, humanity is always arguing about them and changing them. The changes made by art and law don’t have any natural basis; they only hold authority for the time they are enacted. These words come from wise individuals, poets, and writers, and they influence the minds of young people. They are taught that might makes right, which leads the youth to believe that the Gods aren’t as the law dictates they should think. This gives rise to factions, with these philosophers encouraging them to live a true life according to nature, meaning to have real control over others, rather than being legally subordinate to them.
CLEINIAS: What a dreadful picture, Stranger, have you given, and how great is the injury which is thus inflicted on young men to the ruin both of states and families!
CLEINIAS: What a terrible picture you've painted, Stranger, and how much harm this causes to young men, leading to the downfall of both communities and families!
ATHENIAN: True, Cleinias; but then what should the lawgiver do when this evil is of long standing? should he only rise up in the state and threaten all mankind, proclaiming that if they will not say and think that the Gods are such as the law ordains (and this may be extended generally to the honourable, the just, and to all the highest things, and to all that relates to virtue and vice), and if they will not make their actions conform to the copy which the law gives them, then he who refuses to obey the law shall die, or suffer stripes and bonds, or privation of citizenship, or in some cases be punished by loss of property and exile? Should he not rather, when he is making laws for men, at the same time infuse the spirit of persuasion into his words, and mitigate the severity of them as far as he can?
ATHENIAN: That’s true, Cleinias; but what should the lawmaker do when this issue has been around for a long time? Should he just stand up in the state and threaten everyone, declaring that if they don’t believe and say that the Gods are as the law dictates (which can also be applied to what is honorable, just, and everything related to virtue and vice), and if they don’t align their actions with the example the law provides, then those who refuse to follow the law should be put to death, or face punishment like whipping, imprisonment, loss of citizenship, or sometimes even lose their property and be exiled? Shouldn’t he instead, when creating laws for people, also inject a sense of persuasion into his words and ease the harshness of the laws as much as possible?
CLEINIAS: Why, Stranger, if such persuasion be at all possible, then a legislator who has anything in him ought never to weary of persuading men; he ought to leave nothing unsaid in support of the ancient opinion that there are Gods, and of all those other truths which you were just now mentioning; he ought to support the law and also art, and acknowledge that both alike exist by nature, and no less than nature, if they are the creations of mind in accordance with right reason, as you appear to me to maintain, and I am disposed to agree with you in thinking.
CLEINIAS: Well, Stranger, if it's at all possible to persuade people, then a legislator who truly has something to offer should never get tired of trying to convince others. He should say everything he can to support the long-held belief that there are Gods, along with all those other truths you just mentioned. He should advocate for the law and also for art, recognizing that both exist by nature, just like nature itself, if they are created by the mind in accordance with reason, which I believe you are saying, and I tend to agree with you on that.
ATHENIAN: Yes, my enthusiastic Cleinias; but are not these things when spoken to a multitude hard to be understood, not to mention that they take up a dismal length of time?
ATHENIAN: Yes, my eager Cleinias; but aren’t these things hard to understand when explained to a crowd, not to mention they take a really long time?
CLEINIAS: Why, Stranger, shall we, whose patience failed not when drinking or music were the themes of discourse, weary now of discoursing about the Gods, and about divine things? And the greatest help to rational legislation is that the laws when once written down are always at rest; they can be put to the test at any future time, and therefore, if on first hearing they seem difficult, there is no reason for apprehension about them, because any man however dull can go over them and consider them again and again; nor if they are tedious but useful, is there any reason or religion, as it seems to me, in any man refusing to maintain the principles of them to the utmost of his power.
CLEINIAS: Why, Stranger, should we, who remained patient when discussing drinking or music, now tire of talking about the Gods and divine matters? The best thing about written laws is that they’re always available; they can be tested anytime in the future. So, if they seem hard to grasp at first, there’s no need to worry. Anyone, no matter how slow, can review and think about them repeatedly. And if they are long but beneficial, it seems to me there’s no reason or justification for anyone to refuse to uphold their principles as much as they can.
MEGILLUS: Stranger, I like what Cleinias is saying.
MEGILLUS: Hey there, I really like what Cleinias is saying.
ATHENIAN: Yes, Megillus, and we should do as he proposes; for if impious discourses were not scattered, as I may say, throughout the world, there would have been no need for any vindication of the existence of the Gods—but seeing that they are spread far and wide, such arguments are needed; and who should come to the rescue of the greatest laws, when they are being undermined by bad men, but the legislator himself?
ATHENIAN: Yes, Megillus, we should follow his suggestion; because if disrespectful ideas weren't spread all over the world, there wouldn't be a need to justify the existence of the Gods. But since these ideas are widespread, we need these arguments. Who better to defend the most important laws when they're being attacked by wicked people than the legislator himself?
MEGILLUS: There is no more proper champion of them.
MEGILLUS: There isn’t a better champion for them.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, tell me, Cleinias—for I must ask you to be my partner—does not he who talks in this way conceive fire and water and earth and air to be the first elements of all things? these he calls nature, and out of these he supposes the soul to be formed afterwards; and this is not a mere conjecture of ours about his meaning, but is what he really means.
ATHENIAN: So, Cleinias, since I need your help, let me ask you this—doesn’t the person who speaks like this see fire, water, earth, and air as the basic elements of everything? He refers to these as nature and believes that the soul is formed from them later on; this isn’t just our guess about what he means, but it’s actually what he intends.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Then, by Heaven, we have discovered the source of this vain opinion of all those physical investigators; and I would have you examine their arguments with the utmost care, for their impiety is a very serious matter; they not only make a bad and mistaken use of argument, but they lead away the minds of others: that is my opinion of them.
ATHENIAN: Then, by Heaven, we’ve found the root of this foolish belief held by all those so-called scientists; and I want you to look closely at their arguments, because their disrespect is a really serious issue. They not only misuse logic but also mislead others—this is what I think of them.
CLEINIAS: You are right; but I should like to know how this happens.
CLEINIAS: You're right, but I’d like to understand how this works.
ATHENIAN: I fear that the argument may seem singular.
ATHENIAN: I'm worried that the argument might come off as unusual.
CLEINIAS: Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir.
CLEINIAS: Don’t hold back, Stranger; I can tell you’re worried that this conversation might lead us away from the realm of law. But if there’s no other way to demonstrate that we both believe in the existence of Gods, whom the law is said to endorse now, let’s go this route, my good sir.
ATHENIAN: Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods.
ATHENIAN: Then I guess I need to restate the strange argument of those who create ideas about the soul based on their disrespectful beliefs; they claim that what is actually the first cause of the creation and destruction of everything is not first, but last, and that what is last is first. Because of this, they've misunderstood the true nature of the Gods.
CLEINIAS: Still I do not understand you.
CLEINIAS: I still don't get what you're saying.
ATHENIAN: Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul, especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body?
ATHENIAN: Almost all of them, my friends, appear to be unaware of the nature and power of the soul, particularly regarding its origin: they don’t recognize that it is one of the first things, existing before all physical bodies, and is the main cause of their changes and shifts. If this is the case, and if the soul is older than the body, then mustn't the things related to the soul naturally come before those associated with the body?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind.
ATHENIAN: So, thought, focus, intellect, creativity, and law will come before what is hard or soft, heavy or light; the significant and fundamental creations and actions will be artistic works; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and natural creations, although it’s misguided for people to label them that way; these will follow and will be governed by art and intellect.
CLEINIAS: But why is the word 'nature' wrong?
CLEINIAS: But why is the term 'nature' incorrect?
ATHENIAN: Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise.
ATHENIAN: Because when people use that term, they imply that nature is the primary creative force; however, if the soul is actually the original element, instead of fire or air, then the soul can truly be said to exist by nature in a way that surpasses other things. This would hold true if you could demonstrate that the soul is older than the body, but not in any other case.
CLEINIAS: You are quite right.
CLEINIAS: You’re completely right.
ATHENIAN: Shall we, then, take this as the next point to which our attention should be directed?
ATHENIAN: Should we take this as the next point we should focus on?
CLEINIAS: By all means.
Sure thing.
ATHENIAN: Let us be on our guard lest this most deceptive argument with its youthful looks, beguiling us old men, give us the slip and make a laughing-stock of us. Who knows but we may be aiming at the greater, and fail of attaining the lesser? Suppose that we three have to pass a rapid river, and I, being the youngest of the three and experienced in rivers, take upon me the duty of making the attempt first by myself; leaving you in safety on the bank, I am to examine whether the river is passable by older men like yourselves, and if such appears to be the case then I shall invite you to follow, and my experience will help to convey you across; but if the river is impassable by you, then there will have been no danger to anybody but myself—would not that seem to be a very fair proposal? I mean to say that the argument in prospect is likely to be too much for you, out of your depth and beyond your strength, and I should be afraid that the stream of my questions might create in you who are not in the habit of answering, giddiness and confusion of mind, and hence a feeling of unpleasantness and unsuitableness might arise. I think therefore that I had better first ask the questions and then answer them myself while you listen in safety; in that way I can carry on the argument until I have completed the proof that the soul is prior to the body.
ATHENIAN: Let's be careful not to let this tricky argument, with its youthful appearance, fool us older men and make us look foolish. Who knows, we might be aiming for something greater and end up missing out on something smaller? Imagine we three need to cross a swift river, and I, being the youngest and experienced with rivers, take it upon myself to be the first to try alone. I'll leave you safe on the bank while I check if the river is passable for older men like you. If it seems safe, then I'll invite you to follow, and my experience will help guide you across. But if the river is too dangerous for you, then only I would face the risk—wouldn't that seem like a fair deal? What I mean is that the argument ahead might be too challenging for you, beyond your understanding and strength. I'm worried that my questions could leave you, who aren't used to answering, feeling dizzy and confused, which could lead to discomfort and a sense of being out of place. So, I think it's better if I ask the questions first and then answer them myself while you listen safely; this way, I can continue the argument until I've proven that the soul comes before the body.
CLEINIAS: Excellent, Stranger, and I hope that you will do as you propose.
CLEINIAS: Great, Stranger, and I hope you follow through with what you said.
ATHENIAN: Come, then, and if ever we are to call upon the Gods, let us call upon them now in all seriousness to come to the demonstration of their own existence. And so holding fast to the rope we will venture upon the depths of the argument. When questions of this sort are asked of me, my safest answer would appear to be as follows: Some one says to me, 'O Stranger, are all things at rest and nothing in motion, or is the exact opposite of this true, or are some things in motion and others at rest?' To this I shall reply that some things are in motion and others at rest. 'And do not things which move move in a place, and are not the things which are at rest at rest in a place?' Certainly. 'And some move or rest in one place and some in more places than one?' You mean to say, we shall rejoin, that those things which rest at the centre move in one place, just as the circumference goes round of globes which are said to be at rest? 'Yes.' And we observe that, in the revolution, the motion which carries round the larger and the lesser circle at the same time is proportionally distributed to greater and smaller, and is greater and smaller in a certain proportion. Here is a wonder which might be thought an impossibility, that the same motion should impart swiftness and slowness in due proportion to larger and lesser circles. 'Very true.' And when you speak of bodies moving in many places, you seem to me to mean those which move from one place to another, and sometimes have one centre of motion and sometimes more than one because they turn upon their axis; and whenever they meet anything, if it be stationary, they are divided by it; but if they get in the midst between bodies which are approaching and moving towards the same spot from opposite directions, they unite with them. 'I admit the truth of what you are saying.' Also when they unite they grow, and when they are divided they waste away—that is, supposing the constitution of each to remain, or if that fails, then there is a second reason of their dissolution. 'And when are all things created and how?' Clearly, they are created when the first principle receives increase and attains to the second dimension, and from this arrives at the one which is neighbour to this, and after reaching the third becomes perceptible to sense. Everything which is thus changing and moving is in process of generation; only when at rest has it real existence, but when passing into another state it is destroyed utterly. Have we not mentioned all motions that there are, and comprehended them under their kinds and numbered them with the exception, my friends, of two?
ATHENIAN: Alright, then. If we are ever going to call on the Gods, let's do it seriously now and ask them to show us their own existence. So, holding on tightly to the rope, we’ll dive into the depths of this argument. When I get asked questions like this, my safest response seems to be: Someone might ask me, “Hey, stranger, are all things still and nothing is moving, or is it the exact opposite, or are some things moving while others are still?” To this, I would say that some things are in motion and others are at rest. “And don’t things that move do so in a particular place, and aren’t things that are at rest located in one place?” Definitely. “And some move or stay put in one location while others exist in multiple locations?” So you’re saying that those things resting at the center only move in one place, just like the outer edge of worlds that we say are at rest? “Exactly.” And we notice that in their revolutions, the motion that moves both larger and smaller circles at the same time is proportionately distributed between the two, being bigger or smaller in a certain ratio. Here’s a fascinating puzzle: how is it that the same motion can create both speed and slowness in proportion to larger and smaller circles? “That’s very true.” And when you talk about bodies moving across several places, it seems you mean those that go from one place to another, sometimes having one center of motion and sometimes multiple because they rotate on their axis. Whenever they encounter something still, they are separated by it; but if they find themselves between two bodies moving toward the same point from opposite directions, they come together. “I agree with what you’re saying.” Additionally, when they come together, they grow; and when they separate, they diminish—assuming their structure remains intact—or if that fails, there’s another reason for their disintegration. “And when are all things created, and how?” Clearly, they’re created when the first principle expands and reaches the second dimension, and from there moves to the one that is adjacent, eventually reaching the third dimension, becoming observable. Everything that is changing and moving is in the process of coming into being; it only truly exists when it’s at rest, but when it transitions into another state, it’s completely destroyed. Have we not covered all the movements there are and categorized them, except for two, my friends?
CLEINIAS: Which are they?
CLEINIAS: Which ones are they?
ATHENIAN: Just the two, with which our present enquiry is concerned.
ATHENIAN: Just the two that our current discussion focuses on.
CLEINIAS: Speak plainer.
CLEINIAS: Speak more clearly.
ATHENIAN: I suppose that our enquiry has reference to the soul?
ATHENIAN: I guess our discussion is about the soul?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Let us assume that there is a motion able to move other things, but not to move itself; that is one kind; and there is another kind which can move itself as well as other things, working in composition and decomposition, by increase and diminution and generation and destruction—that is also one of the many kinds of motion.
ATHENIAN: Let’s say there’s a type of motion that can move other things, but can’t move itself; that’s one kind. Then there’s another kind that can move itself as well as other things, functioning in composition and decomposition, through increasing and decreasing, and in generation and destruction—this is also one of the many kinds of motion.
CLEINIAS: Granted.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: And we will assume that which moves other, and is changed by other, to be the ninth, and that which changes itself and others, and is coincident with every action and every passion, and is the true principle of change and motion in all that is—that we shall be inclined to call the tenth.
ATHENIAN: So let's say that what is moved by something else and changes because of it is the ninth. And that which changes itself and others, and is present in every action and every feeling, and is the real source of change and movement in everything—that we will call the tenth.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And which of these ten motions ought we to prefer as being the mightiest and most efficient?
ATHENIAN: So, which of these ten options should we choose as the strongest and most effective?
CLEINIAS: I must say that the motion which is able to move itself is ten thousand times superior to all the others.
CLEINIAS: I have to say that the thing that can move itself is way better than everything else.
ATHENIAN: Very good; but may I make one or two corrections in what I have been saying?
ATHENIAN: That's great, but can I make a couple of corrections to what I've said?
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are they exactly?
ATHENIAN: When I spoke of the tenth sort of motion, that was not quite correct.
ATHENIAN: When I talked about the tenth type of motion, that wasn't exactly right.
CLEINIAS: What was the error?
CLEINIAS: What was the mistake?
ATHENIAN: According to the true order, the tenth was really the first in generation and power; then follows the second, which was strangely enough termed the ninth by us.
ATHENIAN: According to the true order, the tenth was actually the first in generation and power; next comes the second, which curiously was called the ninth by us.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What are you saying?
ATHENIAN: I mean this: when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle?
ATHENIAN: What I’m saying is this: when one thing changes another, is there any primary element that causes the change? How can something that is moved by another be the source of change? That’s impossible. But when something that moves itself changes another, and that one changes yet another, leading to countless other things being set in motion, doesn’t this mean that the starting point of all this motion must be the change initiated by the self-moving principle?
CLEINIAS: Very true, and I quite agree.
CLEINIAS: That’s absolutely right, and I totally agree.
ATHENIAN: Or, to put the question in another way, making answer to ourselves: If, as most of these philosophers have the audacity to affirm, all things were at rest in one mass, which of the above-mentioned principles of motion would first spring up among them?
ATHENIAN: Or, to rephrase the question, answering ourselves: If, as many of these philosophers boldly claim, everything was at rest in a single mass, which of the principles of motion mentioned above would emerge first among them?
CLEINIAS: Clearly the self-moving; for there could be no change in them arising out of any external cause; the change must first take place in themselves.
CLEINIAS: Clearly the self-moving; because any change in them can't come from an outside cause; the change has to happen within themselves first.
ATHENIAN: Then we must say that self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second.
ATHENIAN: So, we must acknowledge that self-motion is the source of all movements, and the first one to occur both in things at rest and in those in motion, making it the oldest and strongest principle of change. What is changed by something else yet moves other things is the second principle.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
Cleinias: That's true.
ATHENIAN: At this stage of the argument let us put a question.
ATHENIAN: At this point in the discussion, let's ask a question.
CLEINIAS: What question?
CLEINIAS: What’s the question?
ATHENIAN: If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound—how should we describe it?
ATHENIAN: If we were to see this power present in any solid, liquid, or gas, whether simple or mixed—how would we describe it?
CLEINIAS: You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life?
CLEINIAS: Are you asking if we should call such a self-moving force life?
ATHENIAN: I do.
I do.
CLEINIAS: Certainly we should.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely, we should.
ATHENIAN: And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same—must we not admit that this is life?
ATHENIAN: And when we see a soul in anything, shouldn't we do the same—shouldn't we recognize that this is life?
CLEINIAS: We must.
CLEINIAS: We have to.
ATHENIAN: And now, I beseech you, reflect—you would admit that we have a threefold knowledge of things?
ATHENIAN: And now, I urge you to think—would you agree that we have a threefold understanding of things?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean that we know the essence, and that we know the definition of the essence, and the name—these are the three; and there are two questions which may be raised about anything.
ATHENIAN: I mean that we understand the essence, and we know the definition of the essence, and the name—these are the three; and there are two questions that can be asked about anything.
CLEINIAS: How two?
CLEINIAS: How so?
ATHENIAN: Sometimes a person may give the name and ask the definition; or he may give the definition and ask the name. I may illustrate what I mean in this way.
ATHENIAN: Sometimes someone might ask for the name and then the definition; or they might give the definition and ask for the name. I can explain what I mean like this.
CLEINIAS: How?
CLEINIAS: How?
ATHENIAN: Number like some other things is capable of being divided into equal parts; when thus divided, number is named 'even,' and the definition of the name 'even' is 'number divisible into two equal parts'?
ATHENIAN: Numbers, like certain other things, can be divided into equal parts. When divided this way, a number is referred to as 'even,' and the definition of 'even' is 'a number that can be divided into two equal parts.'
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: I mean, that when we are asked about the definition and give the name, or when we are asked about the name and give the definition—in either case, whether we give name or definition, we speak of the same thing, calling 'even' the number which is divided into two equal parts.
ATHENIAN: I mean that when we are asked for the definition and provide the name, or when we are asked for the name and provide the definition—in either case, whether we provide the name or the definition, we are talking about the same thing, referring to 'even' as the number that can be divided into two equal parts.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: And what is the definition of that which is named 'soul'? Can we conceive of any other than that which has been already given—the motion which can move itself?
ATHENIAN: So, what do we mean by the term 'soul'? Can we imagine anything other than what we've already described—the ability to move independently?
CLEINIAS: You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul?
CLEINIAS: Are you saying that what we call the essence, defined as self-moved, is the same as what we refer to as the soul?
ATHENIAN: Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things?
ATHENIAN: Yes; and if this is true, do we still believe that there's anything missing in the evidence that the soul is the primary source and driving force behind everything that exists, has existed, or will exist, along with its opposites, considering it has been clearly demonstrated to be the origin of change and movement in all things?
CLEINIAS: Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not; the soul, as the source of motion, has clearly been proven to be the oldest of all things.
ATHENIAN: And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer?
ATHENIAN: Isn't that motion which happens in something else because of something else, but never has its own power to move, and is really just the change in a lifeless object, considered as second, or at a lower rank that you might choose?
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
CLEINIAS: That's right.
ATHENIAN: Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler?
ATHENIAN: So we're correct when we say that the soul comes before the body, and that the body is secondary, existing to follow the soul, which is in charge?
CLEINIAS: Nothing can be more true.
CLEINIAS: Nothing could be more true.
ATHENIAN: Do you remember our old admission, that if the soul was prior to the body the things of the soul were also prior to those of the body?
ATHENIAN: Do you remember our earlier agreement that if the soul existed before the body, then the matters of the soul must also come before those of the body?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: Then characters and manners, and wishes and reasonings, and true opinions, and reflections, and recollections are prior to length and breadth and depth and strength of bodies, if the soul is prior to the body.
ATHENIAN: Then personalities and behaviors, along with desires and thoughts, and true beliefs, and insights, and memories come before the size and strength of physical bodies, if the soul comes before the body.
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: In the next place, we must not of necessity admit that the soul is the cause of good and evil, base and honourable, just and unjust, and of all other opposites, if we suppose her to be the cause of all things?
ATHENIAN: Next, we shouldn’t automatically assume that the soul is responsible for good and evil, low and high, just and unjust, or any other opposites if we think of it as the cause of everything.
CLEINIAS: We must.
We have to.
ATHENIAN: And as the soul orders and inhabits all things that move, however moving, must we not say that she orders also the heavens?
ATHENIAN: Since the soul directs and resides in everything that moves, shouldn't we also say that it governs the heavens?
CLEINIAS: Of course.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: One soul or more? More than one—I will answer for you; at any rate, we must not suppose that there are less than two—one the author of good, and the other of evil.
ATHENIAN: One soul or more? More than one—I’ll take that as my answer for you; anyway, we shouldn’t think there’s less than two—one being the source of good, and the other of evil.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Yes, very true; the soul then directs all things in heaven, and earth, and sea by her movements, and these are described by the terms—will, consideration, attention, deliberation, opinion true and false, joy and sorrow, confidence, fear, hatred, love, and other primary motions akin to these; which again receive the secondary motions of corporeal substances, and guide all things to growth and decay, to composition and decomposition, and to the qualities which accompany them, such as heat and cold, heaviness and lightness, hardness and softness, blackness and whiteness, bitterness and sweetness, and all those other qualities which the soul uses, herself a goddess, when truly receiving the divine mind she disciplines all things rightly to their happiness; but when she is the companion of folly, she does the very contrary of all this. Shall we assume so much, or do we still entertain doubts?
ATHENIAN: Yes, that’s absolutely true; the soul guides everything in the heavens, the earth, and the sea through its movements, which we describe with terms like will, thought, focus, deliberation, true and false opinions, happiness and sadness, confidence, fear, hatred, love, and other basic emotions like these. These then influence the secondary movements of physical substances, steering everything toward growth and decay, creation and destruction, and the qualities that come with them, like heat and cold, heaviness and lightness, hardness and softness, darkness and light, bitterness and sweetness, and all those other traits the soul uses. As a goddess, when it truly connects with the divine mind, it guides everything correctly towards happiness; but when it aligns with foolishness, it does the opposite. Should we accept this, or do we still have doubts?
CLEINIAS: There is no room at all for doubt.
CLEINIAS: There's definitely no room for doubt.
ATHENIAN: Shall we say then that it is the soul which controls heaven and earth, and the whole world? that it is a principle of wisdom and virtue, or a principle which has neither wisdom nor virtue? Suppose that we make answer as follows:
ATHENIAN: So, can we say that it’s the soul that governs heaven and earth, and the entire world? Is it a source of wisdom and virtue, or a source that lacks both? Let’s respond as follows:
CLEINIAS: How would you answer?
CLEINIAS: How would you respond?
ATHENIAN: If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path.
ATHENIAN: If we say, my friend, that the entire movement of heaven and everything in it is naturally similar to the movement, change, and reasoning of the mind, and follows related principles, then it’s clear that the best soul looks after the world and leads it down the right path.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: But if the world moves wildly and irregularly, then the evil soul guides it.
ATHENIAN: But if the world moves chaotically and unpredictably, then the corrupt soul is in control.
CLEINIAS: True again.
CLEINIAS: That's true again.
ATHENIAN: Of what nature is the movement of mind? To this question it is not easy to give an intelligent answer; and therefore I ought to assist you in framing one.
ATHENIAN: What is the nature of thought? It’s not easy to give a clear answer to this question, so I should help you come up with one.
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great.
ATHENIAN: Then let us not answer as if we would look straight at the sun, making ourselves darkness at midday—I mean as if we were under the impression that we could see with mortal eyes, or know adequately the nature of mind—it will be safer to look at the image only.
ATHENIAN: Then let's not respond as if we're trying to stare directly at the sun, making ourselves blind at noon—I mean as if we think we can fully understand with our limited human sight or grasp the true nature of the mind—it’s wiser to just look at the reflection.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: Let us select of the ten motions the one which mind chiefly resembles; this I will bring to your recollection, and will then make the answer on behalf of us all.
ATHENIAN: Let's choose the one from the ten proposals that most closely matches what we have in mind; I'll remind you of it, and then I'll speak on behalf of all of us.
CLEINIAS: That will be excellent.
CLEINIAS: That'll be awesome.
ATHENIAN: You will surely remember our saying that all things were either at rest or in motion?
ATHENIAN: You definitely remember us saying that everything is either at rest or in motion?
CLEINIAS: I do.
I do.
ATHENIAN: And that of things in motion some were moving in one place, and others in more than one?
ATHENIAN: So, some things in motion are moving in one place, while others are moving in multiple places?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: Of these two kinds of motion, that which moves in one place must move about a centre like globes made in a lathe, and is most entirely akin and similar to the circular movement of mind.
ATHENIAN: Of these two types of motion, the one that moves in a fixed place must revolve around a center like spheres created on a lathe, and is most closely related to the circular movement of thought.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: In saying that both mind and the motion which is in one place move in the same and like manner, in and about the same, and in relation to the same, and according to one proportion and order, and are like the motion of a globe, we invented a fair image, which does no discredit to our ingenuity.
ATHENIAN: By saying that both the mind and the motion in one place move in the same way and similarly, concerning the same things and according to one proportion and order, and are like the motion of a globe, we've created a fitting image that reflects our creativity.
CLEINIAS: It does us great credit.
CLEINIAS: It really reflects well on us.
ATHENIAN: And the motion of the other sort which is not after the same manner, nor in the same, nor about the same, nor in relation to the same, nor in one place, nor in order, nor according to any rule or proportion, may be said to be akin to senselessness and folly?
ATHENIAN: So, the kind of motion that doesn't happen in the same way, or in the same place, or regarding the same things, or in any particular order, or according to any rule or proportion, could be considered similar to nonsense and foolishness?
CLEINIAS: That is most true.
CLEINIAS: That is very true.
ATHENIAN: Then, after what has been said, there is no difficulty in distinctly stating, that since soul carries all things round, either the best soul or the contrary must of necessity carry round and order and arrange the revolution of the heaven.
ATHENIAN: So, based on what has been discussed, it’s clear that since the soul moves everything, it must be either the best soul or the opposite that drives and organizes the movement of the heavens.
CLEINIAS: And judging from what has been said, Stranger, there would be impiety in asserting that any but the most perfect soul or souls carries round the heavens.
CLEINIAS: Based on what’s been said, Stranger, it would be disrespectful to claim that anyone other than the most perfect soul or souls moves through the heavens.
ATHENIAN: You have understood my meaning right well, Cleinias, and now let me ask you another question.
ATHENIAN: You’ve got my point, Cleinias, and now I want to ask you another question.
CLEINIAS: What are you going to ask?
CLEINIAS: What do you want to ask?
ATHENIAN: If the soul carries round the sun and moon, and the other stars, does she not carry round each individual of them?
ATHENIAN: If the soul moves the sun, moon, and other stars, doesn’t it also move each one of them individually?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: Then of one of them let us speak, and the same argument will apply to all.
ATHENIAN: Then let’s talk about one of them, and the same argument will apply to all.
CLEINIAS: Which will you take?
CLEINIAS: Which one will you choose?
ATHENIAN: Every one sees the body of the sun, but no one sees his soul, nor the soul of any other body living or dead; and yet there is great reason to believe that this nature, unperceived by any of our senses, is circumfused around them all, but is perceived by mind; and therefore by mind and reflection only let us apprehend the following point.
ATHENIAN: Everyone sees the physical form of the sun, but no one sees its essence, nor the essence of any other living or dead being; yet there is strong reason to believe that this nature, which we can’t perceive with our senses, surrounds all of them. It can only be grasped by the mind; so let us understand this point through thought and reflection.
CLEINIAS: What is that?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: If the soul carries round the sun, we shall not be far wrong in supposing one of three alternatives.
ATHENIAN: If the soul carries the sun around, we won't be too far off by considering one of three possibilities.
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: Either the soul which moves the sun this way and that, resides within the circular and visible body, like the soul which carries us about every way; or the soul provides herself with an external body of fire or air, as some affirm, and violently propels body by body; or thirdly, she is without such a body, but guides the sun by some extraordinary and wonderful power.
ATHENIAN: Either the soul that moves the sun this way and that resides within the circular and visible body, like the soul that moves us around in every direction; or the soul surrounds herself with an external body of fire or air, as some say, and forcefully pushes each body individually; or thirdly, she exists without such a body but directs the sun with some extraordinary and amazing power.
CLEINIAS: Yes, certainly; the soul can only order all things in one of these three ways.
CLEINIAS: Yes, definitely; the soul can only organize everything in one of these three ways.
ATHENIAN: And this soul of the sun, which is therefore better than the sun, whether taking the sun about in a chariot to give light to men, or acting from without, or in whatever way, ought by every man to be deemed a God.
ATHENIAN: And this soul of the sun, which is better than the sun, whether it's driving the sun in a chariot to light up the world, or influencing from afar, or in any other way, should be regarded as a God by everyone.
CLEINIAS: Yes, by every man who has the least particle of sense.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, by every person who has even a shred of common sense.
ATHENIAN: And of the stars too, and of the moon, and of the years and months and seasons, must we not say in like manner, that since a soul or souls having every sort of excellence are the causes of all of them, those souls are Gods, whether they are living beings and reside in bodies, and in this way order the whole heaven, or whatever be the place and mode of their existence—and will any one who admits all this venture to deny that all things are full of Gods?
ATHENIAN: And when it comes to the stars, the moon, the years, the months, and the seasons, shouldn't we say the same? Since souls that possess all kinds of excellence are the reasons for all of these, those souls are gods, whether they are living beings in bodies who organize the entire universe or exist in some other form and place. Can anyone who accepts this dare to deny that everything is filled with gods?
CLEINIAS: No one, Stranger, would be such a madman.
CLEINIAS: No one, Stranger, would be that crazy.
ATHENIAN: And now, Megillus and Cleinias, let us offer terms to him who has hitherto denied the existence of the Gods, and leave him.
ATHENIAN: So now, Megillus and Cleinias, let's propose terms to the one who has denied the existence of the Gods up until now, and then move on.
CLEINIAS: What terms?
CLEINIAS: What are the terms?
ATHENIAN: Either he shall teach us that we were wrong in saying that the soul is the original of all things, and arguing accordingly; or, if he be not able to say anything better, then he must yield to us and live for the remainder of his life in the belief that there are Gods. Let us see, then, whether we have said enough or not enough to those who deny that there are Gods.
ATHENIAN: Either he will teach us that we were mistaken in saying that the soul is the source of everything, and arguing that way; or, if he can't come up with anything better, then he has to accept our view and spend the rest of his life believing that there are Gods. Let's see if we've said enough or not enough to those who claim there are no Gods.
CLEINIAS: Certainly, quite enough, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, that’s plenty, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Then to them we will say no more. And now we are to address him who, believing that there are Gods, believes also that they take no heed of human affairs: To him we say—O thou best of men, in believing that there are Gods you are led by some affinity to them, which attracts you towards your kindred and makes you honour and believe in them. But the fortunes of evil and unrighteous men in private as well as public life, which, though not really happy, are wrongly counted happy in the judgment of men, and are celebrated both by poets and prose writers—these draw you aside from your natural piety. Perhaps you have seen impious men growing old and leaving their children's children in high offices, and their prosperity shakes your faith—you have known or heard or been yourself an eyewitness of many monstrous impieties, and have beheld men by such criminal means from small beginnings attaining to sovereignty and the pinnacle of greatness; and considering all these things you do not like to accuse the Gods of them, because they are your relatives; and so from some want of reasoning power, and also from an unwillingness to find fault with them, you have come to believe that they exist indeed, but have no thought or care of human things. Now, that your present evil opinion may not grow to still greater impiety, and that we may if possible use arguments which may conjure away the evil before it arrives, we will add another argument to that originally addressed to him who utterly denied the existence of the Gods. And do you, Megillus and Cleinias, answer for the young man as you did before; and if any impediment comes in our way, I will take the word out of your mouths, and carry you over the river as I did just now.
ATHENIAN: So we won’t say anything more to them. Now we need to talk to him who, believing in Gods, also thinks they don’t care about human matters. To him we say—Oh, you noble person, your belief in the Gods shows that you feel a connection to them, drawing you toward your kin and encouraging you to honor and trust in them. But the success of wicked and unjust people, both in private and public life, which, although not truly happy, are mistakenly thought to be so by others, and are praised by poets and writers—these things distract you from your natural respect for the divine. Maybe you’ve seen irreverent people aging and passing high positions down to their grandchildren, and their success shakes your faith—you’ve known or heard about, or even witnessed, many outrageous acts of disrespect, and you've seen how some have achieved power and prominence through criminal means from humble beginnings; and when you consider all this, you find it hard to hold the Gods accountable, since they are your relatives. Therefore, due to a lack of reasoning and a reluctance to criticize them, you’ve come to believe they indeed exist but have no thoughts or care for human affairs. Now, to ensure your negative view doesn’t lead to even worse disrespect, and to see if we can use arguments to dispel the negativity before it deepens, we will present another argument to counter the one meant for the person who completely denies the existence of the Gods. And you, Megillus and Cleinias, respond for the young man as you did before; and if any obstacles arise, I’ll take the words right out of your mouths and carry you across the river as I did just now.
CLEINIAS: Very good; do as you say, and we will help you as well as we can.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great; we'll do what you say, and we'll help you as much as we can.
ATHENIAN: There will probably be no difficulty in proving to him that the Gods care about the small as well as about the great. For he was present and heard what was said, that they are perfectly good, and that the care of all things is most entirely natural to them.
ATHENIAN: There should be no problem showing him that the Gods care about both the small and the great. After all, he was there and heard what was said—that they are completely good, and that taking care of everything is entirely natural for them.
CLEINIAS: No doubt he heard that.
CLEINIAS: He definitely heard that.
ATHENIAN: Let us consider together in the next place what we mean by this virtue which we ascribe to them. Surely we should say that to be temperate and to possess mind belongs to virtue, and the contrary to vice?
ATHENIAN: Let's think together about what we mean by the virtue we attribute to them. Surely, we would say that being moderate and having a sound mind is part of virtue, while the opposite is part of vice?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Sure.
ATHENIAN: Yes; and courage is a part of virtue, and cowardice of vice?
ATHENIAN: Yes, and bravery is a part of virtue, while cowardice is part of vice?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Correct.
ATHENIAN: And the one is honourable, and the other dishonourable?
ATHENIAN: So, one is honorable, and the other is dishonorable?
CLEINIAS: To be sure.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And the one, like other meaner things, is a human quality, but the Gods have no part in anything of the sort?
ATHENIAN: So, just like other lesser things, it's a human trait, but the Gods have nothing to do with that?
CLEINIAS: That again is what everybody will admit.
CLEINIAS: That’s something everyone will agree on.
ATHENIAN: But do we imagine carelessness and idleness and luxury to be virtues? What do you think?
ATHENIAN: Do we really think that being careless, lazy, and living in luxury are virtues? What’s your take on it?
CLEINIAS: Decidedly not.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely not.
ATHENIAN: They rank under the opposite class?
ATHENIAN: Are they in the opposite group?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: And their opposites, therefore, would fall under the opposite class?
ATHENIAN: So, would the opposite of them belong to the opposite class?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yep.
ATHENIAN: But are we to suppose that one who possesses all these good qualities will be luxurious and heedless and idle, like those whom the poet compares to stingless drones?
ATHENIAN: But should we really believe that someone with all these good qualities will be indulgent, careless, and lazy, like those the poet likens to stingless drones?
CLEINIAS: And the comparison is a most just one.
CLEINIAS: And that comparison is totally fair.
ATHENIAN: Surely God must not be supposed to have a nature which He Himself hates? he who dares to say this sort of thing must not be tolerated for a moment.
ATHENIAN: Surely we can't think that God has a nature He Himself despises? Anyone who dares to say something like that should not be accepted for even a moment.
CLEINIAS: Of course not. How could he have?
CLEINIAS: Of course not. How could he?
ATHENIAN: Should we not on any principle be entirely mistaken in praising any one who has some special business entrusted to him, if he have a mind which takes care of great matters and no care of small ones? Reflect; he who acts in this way, whether he be God or man, must act from one of two principles.
ATHENIAN: Shouldn't we be completely wrong in praising someone who has a specific job to do if they focus only on big issues and ignore the small ones? Think about it; anyone who behaves this way, whether they are a God or a human, must be guided by one of two principles.
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are those?
ATHENIAN: Either he must think that the neglect of the small matters is of no consequence to the whole, or if he knows that they are of consequence, and he neglects them, his neglect must be attributed to carelessness and indolence. Is there any other way in which his neglect can be explained? For surely, when it is impossible for him to take care of all, he is not negligent if he fails to attend to these things great or small, which a God or some inferior being might be wanting in strength or capacity to manage?
ATHENIAN: He must either believe that ignoring the small things doesn't matter to the whole, or if he knows they do matter and still ignores them, then his neglect must come from carelessness and laziness. Is there any other way to explain his neglect? After all, if it's impossible for him to manage everything, he's not being negligent if he overlooks these big or small tasks that a God or some lesser being might not have the strength or ability to handle.
CLEINIAS: Certainly not.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: Now, then, let us examine the offenders, who both alike confess that there are Gods, but with a difference—the one saying that they may be appeased, and the other that they have no care of small matters: there are three of us and two of them, and we will say to them—In the first place, you both acknowledge that the Gods hear and see and know all things, and that nothing can escape them which is matter of sense and knowledge: do you admit this?
ATHENIAN: Alright, let’s look at the offenders, who both admit that there are Gods, but in different ways—one believes they can be appeased, while the other thinks they don’t care about insignificant issues. There are three of us and two of them, and we’ll say to them—First off, you both agree that the Gods hear, see, and know everything, and that nothing that can be sensed or known escapes their attention: do you agree with this?
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yup.
ATHENIAN: And do you admit also that they have all power which mortals and immortals can have?
ATHENIAN: Do you also agree that they have all the power that both mortals and immortals can have?
CLEINIAS: They will, of course, admit this also.
CLEINIAS: They will, of course, agree with this as well.
ATHENIAN: And surely we three and they two—five in all—have acknowledged that they are good and perfect?
ATHENIAN: So, the three of us and those two—five total—agreed that they are good and flawless, right?
CLEINIAS: Assuredly.
CLEINIAS: Definitely.
ATHENIAN: But, if they are such as we conceive them to be, can we possibly suppose that they ever act in the spirit of carelessness and indolence? For in us inactivity is the child of cowardice, and carelessness of inactivity and indolence.
ATHENIAN: But if they are what we think they are, can we really believe that they ever act out of carelessness and laziness? For in us, inactivity comes from cowardice, and carelessness stems from inactivity and laziness.
CLEINIAS: Most true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: Then not from inactivity and carelessness is any God ever negligent; for there is no cowardice in them.
ATHENIAN: Gods are never negligent due to inactivity or carelessness; they have no cowardice in them.
CLEINIAS: That is very true.
CLEINIAS: That's totally true.
ATHENIAN: Then the alternative which remains is, that if the Gods neglect the lighter and lesser concerns of the universe, they neglect them because they know that they ought not to care about such matters—what other alternative is there but the opposite of their knowing?
ATHENIAN: So the only other option is that if the Gods ignore the smaller and less significant issues of the universe, they do so because they understand that these matters aren't worth their attention—what other choice is there besides them being unaware?
CLEINIAS: There is none.
CLEINIAS: There isn't any.
ATHENIAN: And, O most excellent and best of men, do I understand you to mean that they are careless because they are ignorant, and do not know that they ought to take care, or that they know, and yet like the meanest sort of men, knowing the better, choose the worse because they are overcome by pleasures and pains?
ATHENIAN: So, are you saying, you great and noble man, that they are careless because they don’t know they should take care, or do they know and, like the lowest kind of people, choose the worse option because they’re overwhelmed by pleasure and pain?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
No way.
ATHENIAN: Do not all human things partake of the nature of soul? And is not man the most religious of all animals?
ATHENIAN: Doesn’t everything human share the nature of the soul? And isn’t man the most spiritual of all creatures?
CLEINIAS: That is not to be denied.
CLEINIAS: That's for sure.
ATHENIAN: And we acknowledge that all mortal creatures are the property of the Gods, to whom also the whole of heaven belongs?
ATHENIAN: So, we agree that all living beings are the property of the Gods, to whom all of heaven also belongs?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: And, therefore, whether a person says that these things are to the Gods great or small—in either case it would not be natural for the Gods who own us, and who are the most careful and the best of owners, to neglect us. There is also a further consideration.
ATHENIAN: So, whether someone claims that these things are significant or trivial to the Gods, it wouldn’t be natural for the Gods who possess us, and who are the most attentive and the best of caretakers, to ignore us. There's also another point to consider.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: Sensation and power are in an inverse ratio to each other in respect to their ease and difficulty.
ATHENIAN: Sensation and power are inversely related when it comes to how easy or hard they are.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: I mean that there is greater difficulty in seeing and hearing the small than the great, but more facility in moving and controlling and taking care of small and unimportant things than of their opposites.
ATHENIAN: What I mean is that it's tougher to see and hear the small things than the big ones, but it's easier to handle, control, and take care of small and trivial things than their larger counterparts.
CLEINIAS: Far more.
CLEINIAS: Much more.
ATHENIAN: Suppose the case of a physician who is willing and able to cure some living thing as a whole—how will the whole fare at his hands if he takes care only of the greater and neglects the parts which are lesser?
ATHENIAN: Imagine a doctor who can and wants to heal a living being completely—how will that being do under his care if he only focuses on the big issues and ignores the smaller parts?
CLEINIAS: Decidedly not well.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not well.
ATHENIAN: No better would be the result with pilots or generals, or householders or statesmen, or any other such class, if they neglected the small and regarded only the great—as the builders say, the larger stones do not lie well without the lesser.
ATHENIAN: It wouldn't turn out any better with pilots or generals, or homeowners or politicians, or any other group, if they ignored the small details and only focused on the big things—like builders say, the larger stones don’t fit properly without the smaller ones.
CLEINIAS: Of course not.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: Let us not, then, deem God inferior to human workmen, who, in proportion to their skill, finish and perfect their works, small as well as great, by one and the same art; or that God, the wisest of beings, who is both willing and able to take care, is like a lazy good-for-nothing, or a coward, who turns his back upon labour and gives no thought to smaller and easier matters, but to the greater only.
ATHENIAN: So, let’s not consider God to be less capable than human workers, who, based on their skill, complete and refine their creations—whether small or large—using the same craft; nor should we think that God, the wisest being, who is both willing and able to care for us, behaves like a lazy slacker or a coward, who avoids effort and disregards simpler and easier tasks, focusing only on the bigger problems.
CLEINIAS: Never, Stranger, let us admit a supposition about the Gods which is both impious and false.
CLEINIAS: Never, Stranger, let's entertain an idea about the Gods that is both disrespectful and untrue.
ATHENIAN: I think that we have now argued enough with him who delights to accuse the Gods of neglect.
ATHENIAN: I believe we have argued enough with someone who enjoys blaming the Gods for being indifferent.
CLEINIAS: Yes.
CLEINIAS: Yeah.
ATHENIAN: He has been forced to acknowledge that he is in error, but he still seems to me to need some words of consolation.
ATHENIAN: He has had to admit that he was wrong, but he still seems to me to need some words of comfort.
CLEINIAS: What consolation will you offer him?
CLEINIAS: What comfort will you give him?
ATHENIAN: Let us say to the youth: The ruler of the universe has ordered all things with a view to the excellence and preservation of the whole, and each part, as far as may be, has an action and passion appropriate to it. Over these, down to the least fraction of them, ministers have been appointed to preside, who have wrought out their perfection with infinitesimal exactness. And one of these portions of the universe is thine own, unhappy man, which, however little, contributes to the whole; and you do not seem to be aware that this and every other creation is for the sake of the whole, and in order that the life of the whole may be blessed; and that you are created for the sake of the whole, and not the whole for the sake of you. For every physician and every skilled artist does all things for the sake of the whole, directing his effort towards the common good, executing the part for the sake of the whole, and not the whole for the sake of the part. And you are annoyed because you are ignorant how what is best for you happens to you and to the universe, as far as the laws of the common creation admit. Now, as the soul combining first with one body and then with another undergoes all sorts of changes, either of herself, or through the influence of another soul, all that remains to the player of the game is that he should shift the pieces; sending the better nature to the better place, and the worse to the worse, and so assigning to them their proper portion.
ATHENIAN: Let's tell the youth: The ruler of the universe has organized everything for the excellence and preservation of the whole, and each part, as much as possible, has a role and purpose that fits it. Over each of these, down to the smallest detail, there have been appointed ministers who have worked out their perfection with incredible precision. And one of these parts of the universe is yours, unfortunate person, which, no matter how small, contributes to the whole; and you seem not to realize that this and every other creation exists for the sake of the whole, so that the life of the whole may be blessed; and that you were created for the sake of the whole, not the other way around. Every doctor and skilled artist does everything for the sake of the whole, focusing their efforts on the common good, executing each part for the sake of the whole, not the whole for the sake of the part. And you are frustrated because you don’t understand how what is best for you happens to you and to the universe, as far as the laws of the common creation allow. Now, as the soul connects first with one body and then with another, undergoing all sorts of changes—either on its own or influenced by another soul—all that’s left for the player is to move the pieces; placing the better nature in a better position and the worse in a worse position, thereby assigning them their proper roles.
CLEINIAS: In what way do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: In a way which may be supposed to make the care of all things easy to the Gods. If any one were to form or fashion all things without any regard to the whole—if, for example, he formed a living element of water out of fire, instead of forming many things out of one or one out of many in regular order attaining to a first or second or third birth, the transmutation would have been infinite; but now the ruler of the world has a wonderfully easy task.
ATHENIAN: In a way that might be thought to make it easier for the Gods to manage everything. If someone were to create or shape everything without considering the overall picture—like creating a living element of water from fire, instead of making many things from one or one from many in a regular sequence to achieve a first, second, or third form—the transformations would be endless; but now the ruler of the world has a surprisingly simple job.
CLEINIAS: How so?
CLEINIAS: How's that?
ATHENIAN: I will explain: When the king saw that our actions had life, and that there was much virtue in them and much vice, and that the soul and body, although not, like the Gods of popular opinion, eternal, yet having once come into existence, were indestructible (for if either of them had been destroyed, there would have been no generation of living beings); and when he observed that the good of the soul was ever by nature designed to profit men, and the evil to harm them—he, seeing all this, contrived so to place each of the parts that their position might in the easiest and best manner procure the victory of good and the defeat of evil in the whole. And he contrived a general plan by which a thing of a certain nature found a certain seat and room. But the formation of qualities he left to the wills of individuals. For every one of us is made pretty much what he is by the bent of his desires and the nature of his soul.
ATHENIAN: Let me explain: When the king realized our actions were alive, filled with both virtue and vice, and that the soul and body, while not eternal like the popular gods, had come into existence and were indestructible (because if either were destroyed, there would be no generation of living beings); and when he saw that the well-being of the soul was naturally meant to benefit people, and the evil was meant to harm them—he, understanding all this, devised a way to arrange each part so that their positions would easily and effectively secure the triumph of good and the downfall of evil overall. He crafted a general blueprint by which things of a certain nature found their specific places and roles. But he left the development of qualities to individual choices. Each of us essentially becomes who we are based on our desires and the nature of our soul.
CLEINIAS: Yes, that is probably true.
CLEINIAS: Yeah, that's probably right.
ATHENIAN: Then all things which have a soul change, and possess in themselves a principle of change, and in changing move according to law and to the order of destiny: natures which have undergone a lesser change move less and on the earth's surface, but those which have suffered more change and have become more criminal sink into the abyss, that is to say, into Hades and other places in the world below, of which the very names terrify men, and which they picture to themselves as in a dream, both while alive and when released from the body. And whenever the soul receives more of good or evil from her own energy and the strong influence of others—when she has communion with divine virtue and becomes divine, she is carried into another and better place, which is perfect in holiness; but when she has communion with evil, then she also changes the place of her life.
ATHENIAN: So, everything that has a soul changes and has a built-in reason for changing, and when it changes, it follows laws and the order of fate. Beings that have changed a little move less, mostly on the earth's surface, but those that have changed significantly and become more corrupt sink into the abyss, which means Hades and other terrifying places below, names that frighten people and that they imagine like a dream, both while they're alive and after they leave their bodies. Whenever the soul experiences more good or evil based on her own actions and the strong influence of others—when she connects with divine goodness and becomes divine, she is taken to another, better place that is completely holy; but when she associates with evil, she also changes her living situation.
'This is the justice of the Gods who inhabit Olympus.'
'This is the justice of the gods who live on Olympus.'
O youth or young man, who fancy that you are neglected by the Gods, know that if you become worse you shall go to the worse souls, or if better to the better, and in every succession of life and death you will do and suffer what like may fitly suffer at the hands of like. This is the justice of heaven, which neither you nor any other unfortunate will ever glory in escaping, and which the ordaining powers have specially ordained; take good heed thereof, for it will be sure to take heed of you. If you say: I am small and will creep into the depths of the earth, or I am high and will fly up to heaven, you are not so small or so high but that you shall pay the fitting penalty, either here or in the world below or in some still more savage place whither you shall be conveyed. This is also the explanation of the fate of those whom you saw, who had done unholy and evil deeds, and from small beginnings had grown great, and you fancied that from being miserable they had become happy; and in their actions, as in a mirror, you seemed to see the universal neglect of the Gods, not knowing how they make all things work together and contribute to the great whole. And thinkest thou, bold man, that thou needest not to know this? he who knows it not can never form any true idea of the happiness or unhappiness of life or hold any rational discourse respecting either. If Cleinias and this our reverend company succeed in proving to you that you know not what you say of the Gods, then will God help you; but should you desire to hear more, listen to what we say to the third opponent, if you have any understanding whatsoever. For I think that we have sufficiently proved the existence of the Gods, and that they care for men: The other notion that they are appeased by the wicked, and take gifts, is what we must not concede to any one, and what every man should disprove to the utmost of his power.
O youth, or young man, who think you are overlooked by the Gods, understand that if you become worse, you'll be among worse souls; if better, you'll be among better ones. In every cycle of life and death, you'll do and experience what fits your nature. This is the justice of heaven, which neither you nor any other unfortunate soul will ever escape. The powers that be have specifically ordained this; pay attention to it, for it will certainly pay attention to you. If you say, "I’m insignificant and will hide deep in the earth, or I’m elevated and will soar to the heavens," you are neither so insignificant nor so elevated that you won’t face the appropriate consequences, whether here, in the underworld, or in some even harsher place you will end up. This also explains the fate of those you've seen who committed unholy and evil acts, and from humble beginnings rose to greatness. You thought that from their misery they became happy, and in their actions, like a mirror, you perceived the Gods' neglect, not realizing how everything works together for the greater good. Do you truly believe, bold man, that you needn’t know this? Those who lack this knowledge can never truly grasp the happiness or unhappiness of life or engage in any rational discussion about either. If Cleinias and this esteemed group prove to you that you misunderstand the Gods, then may God help you; but if you want to hear more, listen to what we say to the third opponent, if you have any insight at all. I believe we have convincingly established that the Gods exist and care for humanity. We must not permit the notion that they are satisfied by the wicked and accept gifts; that is something everyone should refute as strongly as possible.
CLEINIAS: Very good; let us do as you say.
CLEINIAS: Sounds great; let’s go with your suggestion.
ATHENIAN: Well, then, by the Gods themselves I conjure you to tell me—if they are to be propitiated, how are they to be propitiated? Who are they, and what is their nature? Must they not be at least rulers who have to order unceasingly the whole heaven?
ATHENIAN: Well, then, by the Gods themselves, I urge you to tell me—if they need to be appeased, how should we do that? Who are they, and what are they like? Shouldn’t they at least be rulers who constantly manage the entire universe?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: And to what earthly rulers can they be compared, or who to them? How in the less can we find an image of the greater? Are they charioteers of contending pairs of steeds, or pilots of vessels? Perhaps they might be compared to the generals of armies, or they might be likened to physicians providing against the diseases which make war upon the body, or to husbandmen observing anxiously the effects of the seasons on the growth of plants; or perhaps to shepherds of flocks. For as we acknowledge the world to be full of many goods and also of evils, and of more evils than goods, there is, as we affirm, an immortal conflict going on among us, which requires marvellous watchfulness; and in that conflict the Gods and demigods are our allies, and we are their property. Injustice and insolence and folly are the destruction of us, and justice and temperance and wisdom are our salvation; and the place of these latter is in the life of the Gods, although some vestige of them may occasionally be discerned among mankind. But upon this earth we know that there dwell souls possessing an unjust spirit, who may be compared to brute animals, which fawn upon their keepers, whether dogs or shepherds, or the best and most perfect masters; for they in like manner, as the voices of the wicked declare, prevail by flattery and prayers and incantations, and are allowed to make their gains with impunity. And this sin, which is termed dishonesty, is an evil of the same kind as what is termed disease in living bodies or pestilence in years or seasons of the year, and in cities and governments has another name, which is injustice.
ATHENIAN: And to what earthly rulers can they be compared, or who is like them? How can we find a smaller version that reflects the larger one? Are they like charioteers racing their horses, or like ship captains? Maybe they're similar to army generals, or we could compare them to doctors fighting the illnesses that attack our bodies, or to farmers carefully watching how the seasons affect their crops; or perhaps to shepherds looking after their flocks. We recognize that the world is filled with both good and evil, with more evil than good. There is an eternal struggle happening among us that demands incredible vigilance; in this struggle, the Gods and demigods are our allies, and we are their possessions. Injustice, arrogance, and ignorance are our downfall, while justice, self-control, and wisdom are our salvation; and these qualities reside in the life of the Gods, although we might occasionally see glimpses of them among humans. But here on earth, we know there are souls with unjust spirits, who can be likened to animals that flatter their caretakers, whether they're dogs, shepherds, or the best and most caring masters. Like the wicked voices suggest, they succeed through flattery and charm, making their profits without facing consequences. This sin, known as dishonesty, is an evil similar to diseases in living beings or plagues that strike different years or seasons, and in cities and governments, it goes by the name of injustice.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: Totally true.
ATHENIAN: What else can he say who declares that the Gods are always lenient to the doers of unjust acts, if they divide the spoil with them? As if wolves were to toss a portion of their prey to the dogs, and they, mollified by the gift, suffered them to tear the flocks. Must not he who maintains that the Gods can be propitiated argue thus?
ATHENIAN: What else can someone say who claims that the Gods are always forgiving to those who commit unfair acts, if they share the rewards with them? It's like wolves giving a part of their kill to the dogs, and the dogs, pleased by the gift, allow them to attack the sheep. Doesn’t anyone who insists that the Gods can be appeased have to argue this way?
CLEINIAS: Precisely so.
Exactly.
ATHENIAN: And to which of the above-mentioned classes of guardians would any man compare the Gods without absurdity? Will he say that they are like pilots, who are themselves turned away from their duty by 'libations of wine and the savour of fat,' and at last overturn both ship and sailors?
ATHENIAN: And which of the classes of guardians mentioned above could any man realistically compare to the Gods? Would he claim they are like pilots, who get distracted from their responsibilities by 'wine and the smell of fat,' ultimately causing the ship and crew to capsize?
CLEINIAS: Assuredly not.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not.
ATHENIAN: And surely they are not like charioteers who are bribed to give up the victory to other chariots?
ATHENIAN: And surely they aren't like race car drivers who are paid off to hand the win to other drivers?
CLEINIAS: That would be a fearful image of the Gods.
CLEINIAS: That would be a terrifying image of the Gods.
ATHENIAN: Nor are they like generals, or physicians, or husbandmen, or shepherds; and no one would compare them to dogs who have been silenced by wolves.
ATHENIAN: They aren't like generals, physicians, farmers, or shepherds; and no one would compare them to dogs that have been silenced by wolves.
CLEINIAS: A thing not to be spoken of.
CLEINIAS: Something that shouldn't be discussed.
ATHENIAN: And are not all the Gods the chiefest of all guardians, and do they not guard our highest interests?
ATHENIAN: Aren't all the Gods the greatest guardians, and don’t they protect our most important interests?
CLEINIAS: Yes; the chiefest.
CLEINIAS: Yes; the main one.
ATHENIAN: And shall we say that those who guard our noblest interests, and are the best of guardians, are inferior in virtue to dogs, and to men even of moderate excellence, who would never betray justice for the sake of gifts which unjust men impiously offer them?
ATHENIAN: So, are we really going to say that those who protect our greatest interests, and are the best guardians, are less virtuous than dogs and even ordinary men who would never betray justice for the sake of bribes that corrupt people offer?
CLEINIAS: Certainly not; nor is such a notion to be endured, and he who holds this opinion may be fairly singled out and characterized as of all impious men the wickedest and most impious.
CLEINIAS: Absolutely not; that kind of idea is unacceptable, and anyone who believes it can rightly be identified as the most wicked and impious of all malicious people.
ATHENIAN: Then are the three assertions—that the Gods exist, and that they take care of men, and that they can never be persuaded to do injustice, now sufficiently demonstrated? May we say that they are?
ATHENIAN: So, are the three claims—that the Gods exist, that they look after people, and that they can never be convinced to act unjustly—now clearly proven? Can we say they are?
CLEINIAS: You have our entire assent to your words.
CLEINIAS: We completely agree with what you've said.
ATHENIAN: I have spoken with vehemence because I am zealous against evil men; and I will tell you, dear Cleinias, why I am so. I would not have the wicked think that, having the superiority in argument, they may do as they please and act according to their various imaginations about the Gods; and this zeal has led me to speak too vehemently; but if we have at all succeeded in persuading the men to hate themselves and love their opposites, the prelude of our laws about impiety will not have been spoken in vain.
ATHENIAN: I’ve spoken passionately because I’m really against evil people; and I want to explain to you, dear Cleinias, why that is. I don’t want the wicked to think that just because they’re good at arguing, they can do whatever they want and act however they imagine the Gods to be; and this passion has caused me to speak too strongly. But if we’ve managed to get these men to hate themselves and embrace their opposites, then the introduction to our laws about impiety won’t have been in vain.
CLEINIAS: So let us hope; and even if we have failed, the style of our argument will not discredit the lawgiver.
CLEINIAS: So let's hope; and even if we haven't succeeded, the way we've argued won't discredit the lawmaker.
ATHENIAN: After the prelude shall follow a discourse, which will be the interpreter of the law; this shall proclaim to all impious persons that they must depart from their ways and go over to the pious. And to those who disobey, let the law about impiety be as follows: If a man is guilty of any impiety in word or deed, any one who happens to be present shall give information to the magistrates, in aid of the law; and let the magistrates who first receive the information bring him before the appointed court according to the law; and if a magistrate, after receiving information, refuses to act, he shall be tried for impiety at the instance of any one who is willing to vindicate the laws; and if any one be cast, the court shall estimate the punishment of each act of impiety; and let all such criminals be imprisoned. There shall be three prisons in the state: the first of them is to be the common prison in the neighbourhood of the agora for the safe-keeping of the generality of offenders; another is to be in the neighbourhood of the nocturnal council, and is to be called the 'House of Reformation'; another, to be situated in some wild and desolate region in the centre of the country, shall be called by some name expressive of retribution. Now, men fall into impiety from three causes, which have been already mentioned, and from each of these causes arise two sorts of impiety, in all six, which are worth distinguishing, and should not all have the same punishment. For he who does not believe in the Gods, and yet has a righteous nature, hates the wicked and dislikes and refuses to do injustice, and avoids unrighteous men, and loves the righteous. But they who besides believing that the world is devoid of Gods are intemperate, and have at the same time good memories and quick wits, are worse; although both of them are unbelievers, much less injury is done by the one than by the other. The one may talk loosely about the Gods and about sacrifices and oaths, and perhaps by laughing at other men he may make them like himself, if he be not punished. But the other who holds the same opinions and is called a clever man, is full of stratagem and deceit—men of this class deal in prophecy and jugglery of all kinds, and out of their ranks sometimes come tyrants and demagogues and generals and hierophants of private mysteries and the Sophists, as they are termed, with their ingenious devices. There are many kinds of unbelievers, but two only for whom legislation is required; one the hypocritical sort, whose crime is deserving of death many times over, while the other needs only bonds and admonition. In like manner also the notion that the Gods take no thought of men produces two other sorts of crimes, and the notion that they may be propitiated produces two more. Assuming these divisions, let those who have been made what they are only from want of understanding, and not from malice or an evil nature, be placed by the judge in the House of Reformation, and ordered to suffer imprisonment during a period of not less than five years. And in the meantime let them have no intercourse with the other citizens, except with members of the nocturnal council, and with them let them converse with a view to the improvement of their soul's health. And when the time of their imprisonment has expired, if any of them be of sound mind let him be restored to sane company, but if not, and if he be condemned a second time, let him be punished with death. As to that class of monstrous natures who not only believe that there are no Gods, or that they are negligent, or to be propitiated, but in contempt of mankind conjure the souls of the living and say that they can conjure the dead and promise to charm the Gods with sacrifices and prayers, and will utterly overthrow individuals and whole houses and states for the sake of money—let him who is guilty of any of these things be condemned by the court to be bound according to law in the prison which is in the centre of the land, and let no freeman ever approach him, but let him receive the rations of food appointed by the guardians of the law from the hands of the public slaves; and when he is dead let him be cast beyond the borders unburied, and if any freeman assist in burying him, let him pay the penalty of impiety to any one who is willing to bring a suit against him. But if he leaves behind him children who are fit to be citizens, let the guardians of orphans take care of them, just as they would of any other orphans, from the day on which their father is convicted.
ATHENIAN: After the introduction, there will be a discussion that interprets the law; this will warn all impious people to change their ways and adopt pious behavior. For those who refuse to comply, here’s the law regarding impiety: If someone is guilty of impious words or actions, anyone present must inform the magistrates to uphold the law; those magistrates who receive the report must bring the offender before the designated court as required by law. If a magistrate receives a report but refuses to take action, they can be tried for impiety by anyone willing to uphold the laws. If someone is found guilty, the court will determine the punishment for each act of impiety, and all such offenders will be imprisoned. There will be three prisons in the state: the first will be a common prison near the agora for keeping most offenders safe; another will be nearby the nighttime council, called the 'House of Reformation'; and a third will be located in a remote, desolate area in the center of the country, named to signify retribution. People fall into impiety for three main reasons, as mentioned before, leading to six types of impiety that should not receive the same punishment. Someone who doesn’t believe in the Gods but has a good nature still hates the wicked, avoids injustice, and loves the righteous. But those who, in addition to their disbelief, are reckless and also smart can do more harm; although both groups are unbelievers, the first is less damaging. The first might speak loosely about the Gods and rituals, and if unpunished, could influence others to be like them. The second, deemed clever, is filled with tricks and deception—they are involved in prophecies, various forms of trickery, and may include tyrants, demagogues, generals, initiators of private mysteries, and so-called Sophists with their clever schemes. There are many kinds of unbelievers, but legislation is needed for only two: the hypocritical kind, whose crimes deserve the death penalty, and the other, who only needs bonds and advice. Similarly, the belief that the Gods don’t care about humanity gives rise to two types of crimes, and the belief that they can be appeased results in two more. Given these categories, those who have erred due to ignorance and not malice should be placed in the House of Reformation by the judge and imprisoned for at least five years. During this time, they should not interact with other citizens, except for members of the nighttime council, with whom they can converse to improve their moral state. When their imprisonment ends, if they are of sound mind, they can return to society; if not, and if they are found guilty again, they should face death. As for those with truly monstrous natures who deny the existence of Gods, claim they are indifferent or can be appeased, and who disrespect humanity by attempting to summon the living or the dead, asserting they can appease the Gods with offerings for profit—anyone guilty of such acts should be sentenced by the court to be imprisoned in the central prison, and no free person should approach them. They shall receive food provided by the law's guardians, delivered by public slaves; upon their death, they will be thrown out beyond the borders without burial. If any free person helps bury them, they will face penalties for impiety brought against them. However, if they leave behind children who can be citizens, the guardians of orphans will take care of them from the day their father is convicted, just as they would with any other orphans.
In all these cases there should be one law, which will make men in general less liable to transgress in word or deed, and less foolish, because they will not be allowed to practise religious rites contrary to law. And let this be the simple form of the law: No man shall have sacred rites in a private house. When he would sacrifice, let him go to the temples and hand over his offerings to the priests and priestesses, who see to the sanctity of such things, and let him pray himself, and let any one who pleases join with him in prayer. The reason of this is as follows: Gods and temples are not easily instituted, and to establish them rightly is the work of a mighty intellect. And women especially, and men too, when they are sick or in danger, or in any sort of difficulty, or again on their receiving any good fortune, have a way of consecrating the occasion, vowing sacrifices, and promising shrines to Gods, demigods, and sons of Gods; and when they are awakened by terrible apparitions and dreams or remember visions, they find in altars and temples the remedies of them, and will fill every house and village with them, placing them in the open air, or wherever they may have had such visions; and with a view to all these cases we should obey the law. The law has also regard to the impious, and would not have them fancy that by the secret performance of these actions—by raising temples and by building altars in private houses, they can propitiate the God secretly with sacrifices and prayers, while they are really multiplying their crimes infinitely, bringing guilt from heaven upon themselves, and also upon those who permit them, and who are better men than they are; and the consequence is that the whole state reaps the fruit of their impiety, which, in a certain sense, is deserved. Assuredly God will not blame the legislator, who will enact the following law: No one shall possess shrines of the Gods in private houses, and he who is found to possess them, and perform any sacred rites not publicly authorised—supposing the offender to be some man or woman who is not guilty of any other great and impious crime—shall be informed against by him who is acquainted with the fact, which shall be announced by him to the guardians of the law; and let them issue orders that he or she shall carry away their private rites to the public temples, and if they do not persuade them, let them inflict a penalty on them until they comply. And if a person be proven guilty of impiety, not merely from childish levity, but such as grown-up men may be guilty of, whether he have sacrificed publicly or privately to any Gods, let him be punished with death, for his sacrifice is impure. Whether the deed has been done in earnest, or only from childish levity, let the guardians of the law determine, before they bring the matter into court and prosecute the offender for impiety.
In all these cases, there should be one law that makes people less likely to break the rules in speech or action and less foolish, because they won't be allowed to perform religious rituals against the law. The law should be simple: No one is allowed to have sacred rites in a private home. When someone wants to make a sacrifice, they should go to the temples and give their offerings to the priests and priestesses, who take care of the sanctity of these practices; they can pray themselves, and anyone who wants to can join in their prayers. The reasoning is as follows: Gods and temples are hard to establish, and doing it right requires great intelligence. Women especially, and men too, when they are sick, in danger, or facing difficulties, or when they experience good fortune, tend to dedicate these moments by vowing sacrifices and promising shrines to Gods, demigods, and sons of Gods. When they are troubled by frightening apparitions, dreams, or memories of visions, they look for solace in altars and temples, filling homes and villages with them, placing them outdoors or wherever they had those visions; to address all these situations, we should follow the law. The law also takes into account the impious and aims to prevent them from thinking that by secretly performing these acts—by raising temples and building altars in private homes—they can appease God in secret with sacrifices and prayers while, in reality, they are significantly increasing their sins, bringing guilt from above upon themselves and upon those who allow it, especially those who are more virtuous than they are. Consequently, the entire state suffers from their impiety, which, in a way, is deserved. Surely, God will not hold the lawmaker responsible for enacting the following rule: No one should have shrines of the Gods in private homes, and anyone caught maintaining them or performing any sacred rites that are not publicly authorized—assuming this person isn't guilty of any other serious crime—will be reported by someone who knows about it to the guardians of the law; they should instruct that person to take their private rituals to the public temples, and if they fail to comply, they should face penalties until they do. If someone is found guilty of impiety, not just out of immature foolishness but as an adult might be, whether they have sacrificed publicly or privately to any Gods, they should be punished with death, for their sacrifice is impure. Whether the act was done sincerely or out of childish foolishness, it's up to the guardians of the law to determine before the case goes to court and the offender is prosecuted for impiety.
BOOK XI.
In the next place, dealings between man and man require to be suitably regulated. The principle of them is very simple: Thou shalt not, if thou canst help, touch that which is mine, or remove the least thing which belongs to me without my consent; and may I be of a sound mind, and do to others as I would that they should do to me. First, let us speak of treasure-trove: May I never pray the Gods to find the hidden treasure, which another has laid up for himself and his family, he not being one of my ancestors, nor lift, if I should find, such a treasure. And may I never have any dealings with those who are called diviners, and who in any way or manner counsel me to take up the deposit entrusted to the earth, for I should not gain so much in the increase of my possessions, if I take up the prize, as I should grow in justice and virtue of soul, if I abstain; and this will be a better possession to me than the other in a better part of myself; for the possession of justice in the soul is preferable to the possession of wealth. And of many things it is well said—'Move not the immovables,' and this may be regarded as one of them. And we shall do well to believe the common tradition which says, that such deeds prevent a man from having a family. Now as to him who is careless about having children and regardless of the legislator, taking up that which neither he deposited, nor any ancestor of his, without the consent of the depositor, violating the simplest and noblest of laws which was the enactment of no mean man: 'Take not up that which was not laid down by thee'—of him, I say, who despises these two legislators, and takes up, not some small matter which he has not deposited, but perhaps a great heap of treasure, what he ought to suffer at the hands of the Gods, God only knows; but I would have the first person who sees him go and tell the wardens of the city, if the occurrence has taken place in the city, or if the occurrence has taken place in the agora he shall tell the wardens of the agora, or if in the country he shall tell the wardens of the country and their commanders. When information has been received the city shall send to Delphi, and, whatever the God answers about the money and the remover of the money, that the city shall do in obedience to the oracle; the informer, if he be a freeman, shall have the honour of doing rightly, and he who informs not, the dishonour of doing wrongly; and if he be a slave who gives information, let him be freed, as he ought to be, by the state, which shall give his master the price of him; but if he do not inform he shall be punished with death. Next in order shall follow a similar law, which shall apply equally to matters great and small: If a man happens to leave behind him some part of his property, whether intentionally or unintentionally, let him who may come upon the left property suffer it to remain, reflecting that such things are under the protection of the Goddess of ways, and are dedicated to her by the law. But if any one defies the law, and takes the property home with him, let him, if the thing is of little worth, and the man who takes it a slave, be beaten with many stripes by him who meets him, being a person of not less than thirty years of age. Or if he be a freeman, in addition to being thought a mean person and a despiser of the laws, let him pay ten times the value of the treasure which he has moved to the leaver. And if some one accuses another of having anything which belongs to him, whether little or much, and the other admits that he has this thing, but denies that the property in dispute belongs to the other, if the property be registered with the magistrates according to law, the claimant shall summon the possessor, who shall bring it before the magistrates; and when it is brought into court, if it be registered in the public registers, to which of the litigants it belonged, let him take it and go his way. Or if the property be registered as belonging to some one who is not present, whoever will offer sufficient surety on behalf of the absent person that he will give it up to him, shall take it away as the representative of the other. But if the property which is deposited be not registered with the magistrates, let it remain until the time of trial with three of the eldest of the magistrates; and if it be an animal which is deposited, then he who loses the suit shall pay the magistrates for its keep, and they shall determine the cause within three days.
Next, relationships between people need to be properly managed. The basic principle is quite simple: Do not touch what belongs to someone else, or take anything that belongs to me without my permission; and may I stay in my right mind and treat others the way I want to be treated. First, let’s talk about hidden treasures: May I never pray to the gods to find treasure that someone else has buried for themselves and their family, especially if they aren’t my ancestors, nor take such a treasure if I find it. And may I never get involved with so-called diviners who counsel me to dig up what’s been entrusted to the earth, because I wouldn't gain as much from increasing my possessions by taking the treasure as I would gain in justice and moral character by refraining; this inner virtue is a far better possession for me than material wealth. It's often said, "Do not disturb the undisturbable,” and I consider this one of those truths. It's wise to trust the common belief that such actions will prevent a man from having a family. As for those who disregard the importance of having children and the laws, taking what was neither theirs nor their ancestors’ without the owner’s consent, violating the most basic and honorable law laid down by a person of great standing: "Do not take what was not entrusted to you"—as for those who dismiss these two laws and seize not just small items, but perhaps a significant treasure, only the gods know what punishment awaits them. I would like the first person to see this happen to go and inform the city officials if it happens in the city, or the agora officials if it occurs in the agora, or the country officials if it happens in the countryside. Once notified, the city shall send a message to Delphi, and whatever the god says about the money and the one who took it, the city will follow the oracle's instructions. The informer, if they are a free person, will earn the honor of doing the right thing, while the one who stays silent will carry the dishonor of wrongdoing. If the informer is a slave, they should be freed by the state, which will compensate their owner; but if they do not inform, they should face the death penalty. Next, there will be a similar law that applies to both large and small matters: If someone accidentally leaves behind part of their property, the person who comes across it should leave it there, remembering that such items are protected by the Goddess of Ways and are legally dedicated to her. However, if someone defies the law and takes the property home, if it is of little value and the person taking it is a slave, they will be beaten soundly by anyone who catches them, provided that person is at least thirty years old. If the thief is a free person, in addition to being regarded as dishonorable and disrespectful of the law, they will have to pay ten times the value of what they took to the original owner. If someone accuses another of having their property, whether it’s big or small, and the accused admits they have it but denies it belongs to the accuser, if the property is officially registered with the authorities, the accuser can summon the possessor, who must present it to the authorities. When it is brought to court, if it’s registered in the public records to one of the parties, that person will take it and go on their way. If the property is registered to someone who is absent, whoever can provide sufficient guarantee for the absent person will take it as their representative. But if the property is not registered with the authorities, it will remain in the custody of three of the eldest magistrates until the trial; and if it is an animal that is deposited, the person who loses the case will have to compensate the magistrates for its upkeep, and they must resolve the issue within three days.
Any one who is of sound mind may arrest his own slave, and do with him whatever he will of such things as are lawful; and he may arrest the runaway slave of any of his friends or kindred with a view to his safe-keeping. And if any one takes away him who is being carried off as a slave, intending to liberate him, he who is carrying him off shall let him go; but he who takes him away shall give three sufficient sureties; and if he give them, and not without giving them, he may take him away, but if he take him away after any other manner he shall be deemed guilty of violence, and being convicted shall pay as a penalty double the amount of the damages claimed to him who has been deprived of the slave. Any man may also carry off a freedman, if he do not pay respect or sufficient respect to him who freed him. Now the respect shall be, that the freedman go three times in the month to the hearth of the person who freed him, and offer to do whatever he ought, so far as he can; and he shall agree to make such a marriage as his former master approves. He shall not be permitted to have more property than he who gave him liberty, and what more he has shall belong to his master. The freedman shall not remain in the state more than twenty years, but like other foreigners shall go away, taking his entire property with him, unless he has the consent of the magistrates and of his former master to remain. If a freedman or any other stranger has a property greater than the census of the third class, at the expiration of thirty days from the day on which this comes to pass, he shall take that which is his and go his way, and in this case he shall not be allowed to remain any longer by the magistrates. And if any one disobeys this regulation, and is brought into court and convicted, he shall be punished with death, and his property shall be confiscated. Suits about these matters shall take place before the tribes, unless the plaintiff and defendant have got rid of the accusation either before their neighbours or before judges chosen by them. If a man lay claim to any animal or anything else which he declares to be his, let the possessor refer to the seller or to some honest and trustworthy person, who has given, or in some legitimate way made over the property to him; if he be a citizen or a metic, sojourning in the city, within thirty days, or, if the property have been delivered to him by a stranger, within five months, of which the middle month shall include the summer solstice. When goods are exchanged by selling and buying, a man shall deliver them, and receive the price of them, at a fixed place in the agora, and have done with the matter; but he shall not buy or sell anywhere else, nor give credit. And if in any other manner or in any other place there be an exchange of one thing for another, and the seller give credit to the man who buys from him, he must do this on the understanding that the law gives no protection in cases of things sold not in accordance with these regulations. Again, as to contributions, any man who likes may go about collecting contributions as a friend among friends, but if any difference arises about the collection, he is to act on the understanding that the law gives no protection in such cases. He who sells anything above the value of fifty drachmas shall be required to remain in the city for ten days, and the purchaser shall be informed of the house of the seller, with a view to the sort of charges which are apt to arise in such cases, and the restitutions which the law allows. And let legal restitution be on this wise: If a man sells a slave who is in a consumption, or who has the disease of the stone, or of strangury, or epilepsy, or some other tedious and incurable disorder of body or mind, which is not discernible to the ordinary man, if the purchaser be a physician or trainer, he shall have no right of restitution; nor shall there be any right of restitution if the seller has told the truth beforehand to the buyer. But if a skilled person sells to another who is not skilled, let the buyer appeal for restitution within six months, except in the case of epilepsy, and then the appeal may be made within a year. The cause shall be determined by such physicians as the parties may agree to choose; and the defendant, if he lose the suit, shall pay double the price at which he sold. If a private person sell to another private person, he shall have the right of restitution, and the decision shall be given as before, but the defendant, if he be cast, shall only pay back the price of the slave. If a person sells a homicide to another, and they both know of the fact, let there be no restitution in such a case, but if he do not know of the fact, there shall be a right of restitution, whenever the buyer makes the discovery; and the decision shall rest with the five youngest guardians of the law, and if the decision be that the seller was cognisant of the fact, he shall purify the house of the purchaser, according to the law of the interpreters, and shall pay back three times the purchase-money.
Anyone who is of sound mind can arrest their own slave and do whatever lawful things they wish with him. They may also arrest the runaway slave of any friends or family for safe-keeping. If someone takes a slave being carried off, intending to free him, the person carrying him away must let him go. However, the one who takes him away must provide three sufficient sureties. If they provide those sureties, they can take the slave; but if they take him any other way, they will be considered guilty of violence, and if convicted, they must pay double the amount of damages claimed by the person who lost the slave. Additionally, anyone may take away a freedman if they do not show respect or enough respect to the person who freed him. Respect means the freedman should visit the home of his liberator three times a month and offer to fulfill his obligations as much as he can. Furthermore, he must agree to marry someone approved by his former master. He cannot have more property than the person who freed him, and anything beyond what he owns will belong to his former master. The freedman cannot remain in the state for more than twenty years; like other foreigners, he must leave and take all his possessions with him unless he has permission from the magistrates and his former master to stay. If a freedman or any other foreigner possesses property exceeding the census of the third class, thirty days after this threshold is reached, he must take what is his and leave; in such cases, he will not be allowed to stay by the magistrates. Anyone who disobeys this regulation and is brought to court and convicted will be punished with death, and their property will be confiscated. Legal disputes regarding these matters should take place before the tribes unless the plaintiff and defendant have previously resolved the issue among neighbors or chosen judges. If someone claims ownership of an animal or item, the possessor should refer to the seller or a reputable person who gave or transferred the property to him. If the seller is a citizen or a metic residing in the city, this must occur within thirty days; if the property was given by a foreigner, it must occur within five months, with the middle month including the summer solstice. When goods are exchanged through selling and buying, the seller must deliver them and receive payment at a designated location in the agora, completing the transaction there. They cannot buy or sell elsewhere or extend credit. If a transaction occurs outside these guidelines and the seller grants credit to the buyer, it should be understood that the law will not provide protection for such transactions. Regarding contributions, anyone may collect them among friends, but if a disagreement arises about the collection, it should be understood that the law does not offer protection in such cases. Anyone selling anything valued over fifty drachmas must remain in the city for ten days, and the purchaser must be informed of the seller's address to manage potential charges and required restitutions according to the law. Legal restitution will work like this: If someone sells a slave suffering from a chronic condition, such as consumption, kidney stones, strangury, epilepsy, or another long-term and incurable ailment that is not obvious to the average person, and the buyer is a doctor or trainer, they will not have a right to restitution. There will also be no right to restitution if the seller truthfully informed the buyer in advance. However, if a skilled person sells to an unskilled person, the buyer can request restitution within six months, except in cases of epilepsy, for which the appeal can be made within a year. The matter will be decided by physicians chosen by the parties, and if the defendant loses, they must pay double the sale price. If a private person sells to another private person, the buyer has the right to restitution, and the decision will be made as previously stated, but if the defendant is found liable, they will only refund the sale price of the slave. If someone sells a known murderer to another person, with both parties aware of the situation, there will be no restitution. However, if they are unaware and later discover the fact, there will be a right to restitution, determined by the five youngest guardians of the law. If it is found the seller was aware of the situation, they must purify the buyer's home according to the law and refund three times the purchase price.
If a man exchanges either money for money, or anything whatever for anything else, either with or without life, let him give and receive them genuine and unadulterated, in accordance with the law. And let us have a prelude about all this sort of roguery, like the preludes of our other laws. Every man should regard adulteration as of one and the same class with falsehood and deceit, concerning which the many are too fond of saying that at proper times and places the practice may often be right. But they leave the occasion, and the when, and the where, undefined and unsettled, and from this want of definiteness in their language they do a great deal of harm to themselves and to others. Now a legislator ought not to leave the matter undetermined; he ought to prescribe some limit, either greater or less. Let this be the rule prescribed: No one shall call the Gods to witness, when he says or does anything false or deceitful or dishonest, unless he would be the most hateful of mankind to them. And he is most hateful to them who takes a false oath, and pays no heed to the Gods; and in the next degree, he who tells a falsehood in the presence of his superiors. Now better men are the superiors of worse men, and in general elders are the superiors of the young; wherefore also parents are the superiors of their offspring, and men of women and children, and rulers of their subjects; for all men ought to reverence any one who is in any position of authority, and especially those who are in state offices. And this is the reason why I have spoken of these matters. For every one who is guilty of adulteration in the agora tells a falsehood, and deceives, and when he invokes the Gods, according to the customs and cautions of the wardens of the agora, he does but swear without any respect for God or man. Certainly, it is an excellent rule not lightly to defile the names of the Gods, after the fashion of men in general, who care little about piety and purity in their religious actions. But if a man will not conform to this rule, let the law be as follows: He who sells anything in the agora shall not ask two prices for that which he sells, but he shall ask one price, and if he do not obtain this, he shall take away his goods; and on that day he shall not value them either at more or less; and there shall be no praising of any goods, or oath taken about them. If a person disobeys this command, any citizen who is present, not being less than thirty years of age, may with impunity chastise and beat the swearer, but if instead of obeying the laws he takes no heed, he shall be liable to the charge of having betrayed them. If a man sells any adulterated goods and will not obey these regulations, he who knows and can prove the fact, and does prove it in the presence of the magistrates, if he be a slave or a metic, shall have the adulterated goods; but if he be a citizen, and do not pursue the charge, he shall be called a rogue, and deemed to have robbed the Gods of the agora; or if he proves the charge, he shall dedicate the goods to the Gods of the agora. He who is proved to have sold any adulterated goods, in addition to losing the goods themselves, shall be beaten with stripes—a stripe for a drachma, according to the price of the goods; and the herald shall proclaim in the agora the offence for which he is going to be beaten. The wardens of the agora and the guardians of the law shall obtain information from experienced persons about the rogueries and adulterations of the sellers, and shall write up what the seller ought and ought not to do in each case; and let them inscribe their laws on a column in front of the court of the wardens of the agora, that they may be clear instructors of those who have business in the agora. Enough has been said in what has preceded about the wardens of the city, and if anything seems to be wanting, let them communicate with the guardians of the law, and write down the omission, and place on a column in the court of the wardens of the city the primary and secondary regulations which are laid down for them about their office.
If a person exchanges money for money or anything else for something else, whether with or without life, they should do so honestly and fairly, following the law. Let's have some background on all this kind of trickery, similar to the introductions of our other laws. Everyone should view adulteration as being on the same level as falsehood and deceit, about which many people often claim that under certain circumstances, it might sometimes be acceptable. However, they leave the situation, timing, and context unclear, and this lack of clarity causes significant harm to themselves and others. A lawmaker should not leave the issue vague; they should set a clear boundary, whether it’s stricter or more lenient. The rule should be this: No one shall call upon the Gods as witnesses when they say or do anything false, deceitful, or dishonest, unless they want to be the most detestable in the eyes of the Gods. The person who takes a false oath and disregards the Gods is most detestable, followed closely by someone who lies in front of their superiors. Better individuals are superiors to worse ones, and generally, elders are superior to the young; therefore, parents are superior to their children, men to women and children, and rulers to their subjects. Everyone should respect those in positions of authority, especially those in government. This is why I am discussing these matters. Everyone who engages in deception in the marketplace is lying and misleading, and when they call upon the Gods according to the customs and cautions set by the overseers of the marketplace, they are swearing without any regard for God or man. It is indeed a great principle not to tarnish the names of the Gods lightly, unlike many people who care little for piety and purity in their religious practices. However, if someone refuses to follow this principle, let the law state the following: Anyone selling anything in the marketplace must not ask for two prices for their goods but should request one price. If they cannot get that, they should take their goods away and not value them more or less that day; there should be no praising of goods or oaths taken regarding them. If someone disobeys this command, any citizen present, who is at least thirty years old, may punish and beat the oath-breaker without consequence, but if they ignore the laws instead of complying, they will be charged with betraying them. If someone sells any tainted goods and doesn’t follow these regulations, anyone who knows and can prove this in front of the magistrates—if they are a slave or a resident—will receive the adulterated goods. But if they are a citizen and do not pursue the case, they will be labeled a swindler and considered to have robbed the Gods of the marketplace; or if they prove the accusation, they will dedicate the goods to the Gods of the marketplace. Anyone proven to have sold adulterated goods will not only lose the goods but will also be punished with stripes—one stripe for every drachma corresponding to the price of the goods—and the herald will announce the offense for which they are being punished in the marketplace. The overseers of the marketplace and the law guardians will seek information from knowledgeable individuals about the tricks and adulterations of sellers, and will record what the seller should and should not do in each situation. They will inscribe their laws on a pillar in front of the court of the overseers of the marketplace, so that they may clearly instruct those conducting business in the marketplace. Enough has been said previously regarding the overseers of the city, and if anything seems to be lacking, let them communicate with the law guardians, document the omission, and place the primary and secondary regulations that have been established for their office on a pillar in the court of the overseers of the city.
After the practices of adulteration naturally follow the practices of retail trade. Concerning these, we will first of all give a word of counsel and reason, and the law shall come afterwards. Retail trade in a city is not by nature intended to do any harm, but quite the contrary; for is not he a benefactor who reduces the inequalities and incommensurabilities of goods to equality and common measure? And this is what the power of money accomplishes, and the merchant may be said to be appointed for this purpose. The hireling and the tavern-keeper, and many other occupations, some of them more and others less seemly—all alike have this object—they seek to satisfy our needs and equalize our possessions. Let us then endeavour to see what has brought retail trade into ill-odour, and wherein lies the dishonour and unseemliness of it, in order that if not entirely, we may yet partially, cure the evil by legislation. To effect this is no easy matter, and requires a great deal of virtue.
Once we look at the practices of adulteration, we naturally turn our attention to retail trade. Regarding this, we'll start with some advice and reasoning, and then address the law. Retail trade in a city isn't meant to cause harm; in fact, it's quite the opposite. Isn't a person a benefactor when they bring fairness and balance to the value of goods? That's what the power of money achieves, and merchants are meant to serve this purpose. Workers, tavern-keepers, and many other jobs—some more respectable than others—share this goal: they aim to meet our needs and balance our possessions. So, let’s explore what's caused retail trade to earn a bad reputation, and where its dishonor and unseemliness lie, so that we can, if not completely, at least partially address the issue through legislation. Accomplishing this isn't easy and requires a great deal of integrity.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: Dear Cleinias, the class of men is small—they must have been rarely gifted by nature, and trained by education—who, when assailed by wants and desires, are able to hold out and observe moderation, and when they might make a great deal of money are sober in their wishes, and prefer a moderate to a large gain. But the mass of mankind are the very opposite: their desires are unbounded, and when they might gain in moderation they prefer gains without limit; wherefore all that relates to retail trade, and merchandise, and the keeping of taverns, is denounced and numbered among dishonourable things. For if what I trust may never be and will not be, we were to compel, if I may venture to say a ridiculous thing, the best men everywhere to keep taverns for a time, or carry on retail trade, or do anything of that sort; or if, in consequence of some fate or necessity, the best women were compelled to follow similar callings, then we should know how agreeable and pleasant all these things are; and if all such occupations were managed on incorrupt principles, they would be honoured as we honour a mother or a nurse. But now that a man goes to desert places and builds houses which can only be reached by long journeys, for the sake of retail trade, and receives strangers who are in need at the welcome resting-place, and gives them peace and calm when they are tossed by the storm, or cool shade in the heat; and then instead of behaving to them as friends, and showing the duties of hospitality to his guests, treats them as enemies and captives who are at his mercy, and will not release them until they have paid the most unjust, abominable, and extortionate ransom—these are the sort of practises, and foul evils they are, which cast a reproach upon the succour of adversity. And the legislator ought always to be devising a remedy for evils of this nature. There is an ancient saying, which is also a true one—'To fight against two opponents is a difficult thing,' as is seen in diseases and in many other cases. And in this case also the war is against two enemies—wealth and poverty; one of whom corrupts the soul of man with luxury, while the other drives him by pain into utter shamelessness. What remedy can a city of sense find against this disease? In the first place, they must have as few retail traders as possible; and in the second place, they must assign the occupation to that class of men whose corruption will be the least injury to the state; and in the third place, they must devise some way whereby the followers of these occupations themselves will not readily fall into habits of unbridled shamelessness and meanness.
ATHENIAN: Dear Cleinias, the number of truly exceptional people is small—they must have been naturally gifted and well-educated—who, when faced with wants and desires, can resist temptation and practice moderation. They can choose to be satisfied with a moderate income rather than chase after huge profits. But the majority of people are quite the opposite: their desires know no bounds, and when they could achieve reasonable gains, they instead pursue limitless profit. That’s why things like retail trade, merchandise, and running taverns are often looked down upon and considered dishonorable. If I may suggest something absurd, what if we forced the best individuals everywhere to run taverns or engage in retail trade, even for a while? Or if the best women had to take similar jobs due to some fate or necessity? Then we would see how pleasant those jobs could actually be; and if they were conducted on honest principles, they would be respected as we respect a mother or a caregiver. But instead, we see people going out to remote places to set up shops that require long journeys to reach, just for retail trade. They host travelers seeking refuge, providing them comfort during storms or cool shade in the heat, yet they treat their guests as adversaries and captives, only releasing them once they’ve paid an outrageous and unfair ransom. These practices are shameful and reflect poorly on our ability to help those in distress. The lawmakers should always strive to remedy such evils. There’s an old saying that rings true: "Fighting against two opponents is tough," which applies to illnesses and many other situations. Here, the struggle is against two foes—wealth and poverty; one corrupts the soul with luxury, while the other drives people into shamelessness through suffering. What can a wise city do about this issue? First, they should aim to have as few retail traders as possible; second, they should assign this role to individuals whose corruption poses the least danger to the community; and third, they need to find a way to ensure that those working in these roles do not easily fall into habits of unrestrained shamelessness and meanness.
After this preface let our law run as follows, and may fortune favour us: No landowner among the Magnetes, whose city the God is restoring and resettling—no one, that is, of the 5040 families, shall become a retail trader either voluntarily or involuntarily; neither shall he be a merchant, or do any service for private persons unless they equally serve him, except for his father or his mother, and their fathers and mothers; and in general for his elders who are freemen, and whom he serves as a freeman. Now it is difficult to determine accurately the things which are worthy or unworthy of a freeman, but let those who have obtained the prize of virtue give judgment about them in accordance with their feelings of right and wrong. He who in any way shares in the illiberality of retail trades may be indicted for dishonouring his race by any one who likes, before those who have been judged to be the first in virtue; and if he appear to throw dirt upon his father's house by an unworthy occupation, let him be imprisoned for a year and abstain from that sort of thing; and if he repeat the offence, for two years; and every time that he is convicted let the length of his imprisonment be doubled. This shall be the second law: He who engages in retail trade must be either a metic or a stranger. And a third law shall be: In order that the retail trader who dwells in our city may be as good or as little bad as possible, the guardians of the law shall remember that they are not only guardians of those who may be easily watched and prevented from becoming lawless or bad, because they are well-born and bred; but still more should they have a watch over those who are of another sort, and follow pursuits which have a very strong tendency to make men bad. And, therefore, in respect of the multifarious occupations of retail trade, that is to say, in respect of such of them as are allowed to remain, because they seem to be quite necessary in a state—about these the guardians of the law should meet and take counsel with those who have experience of the several kinds of retail trade, as we before commanded concerning adulteration (which is a matter akin to this), and when they meet they shall consider what amount of receipts, after deducting expenses, will produce a moderate gain to the retail trades, and they shall fix in writing and strictly maintain what they find to be the right percentage of profit; this shall be seen to by the wardens of the agora, and by the wardens of the city, and by the wardens of the country. And so retail trade will benefit every one, and do the least possible injury to those in the state who practise it.
After this introduction, let our law be as follows, and may fortune be on our side: No landowner among the Magnetes, whose city the God is restoring and resettling—none of the 5,040 families—shall become a retail trader, whether by choice or obligation; nor shall he be a merchant or perform any service for private individuals unless they also serve him, except for his father or mother and their parents; and in general for his elders who are freemen, and whom he serves as a freeman. It’s hard to clearly define what is worthy or unworthy of a freeman, but those who have earned the prize of virtue should judge them based on their sense of right and wrong. Anyone who engages in the unworthiness of retail trades may be accused of dishonoring his lineage by anyone who wishes, in front of those deemed the most virtuous; and if he seems to bring shame to his father’s house through an unworthy occupation, he should be imprisoned for a year and refrain from such activities; if he repeats the offense, for two years; and for every time he is found guilty, the length of his imprisonment will double. This will be the second law: Anyone involved in retail trade must be either a metic or a stranger. A third law will state: To ensure that retail traders living in our city are as good or as minimally bad as possible, the law’s guardians must remember that they are not just guardians of those who can be easily monitored and prevented from becoming lawless or corrupt due to their good birth and upbringing; rather, they should pay even more attention to those of a different nature, who follow pursuits that can easily lead to wrongdoing. Therefore, regarding the diverse occupations of retail trade, particularly those deemed necessary for the state—about these, the guardians of the law should convene and consult with those experienced in the various types of retail trade, as we previously directed concerning adulteration (which is a similar issue), and when they meet, they should determine what level of income, after expenses, will provide a reasonable profit for retail traders, and they should record in writing and strictly enforce what they find to be the correct profit percentage; this will be overseen by the wardens of the agora, the wardens of the city, and the wardens of the countryside. Consequently, retail trade will benefit everyone and cause the least possible harm to those within the state who engage in it.
When a man makes an agreement which he does not fulfil, unless the agreement be of a nature which the law or a vote of the assembly does not allow, or which he has made under the influence of some unjust compulsion, or which he is prevented from fulfilling against his will by some unexpected chance, the other party may go to law with him in the courts of the tribes, for not having completed his agreement, if the parties are not able previously to come to terms before arbiters or before their neighbours. The class of craftsmen who have furnished human life with the arts is dedicated to Hephaestus and Athene; and there is a class of craftsmen who preserve the works of all craftsmen by arts of defence, the votaries of Ares and Athene, to which divinities they too are rightly dedicated. All these continue through life serving the country and the people; some of them are leaders in battle; others make for hire implements and works, and they ought not to deceive in such matters, out of respect to the Gods who are their ancestors. If any craftsman through indolence omit to execute his work in a given time, not reverencing the God who gives him the means of life, but considering, foolish fellow, that he is his own God and will let him off easily, in the first place, he shall suffer at the hands of the God, and in the second place, the law shall follow in a similar spirit. He shall owe to him who contracted with him the price of the works which he has failed in performing, and he shall begin again and execute them gratis in the given time. When a man undertakes a work, the law gives him the same advice which was given to the seller, that he should not attempt to raise the price, but simply ask the value; this the law enjoins also on the contractor; for the craftsman assuredly knows the value of his work. Wherefore, in free states the man of art ought not to attempt to impose upon private individuals by the help of his art, which is by nature a true thing; and he who is wronged in a matter of this sort, shall have a right of action against the party who has wronged him. And if any one lets out work to a craftsman, and does not pay him duly according to the lawful agreement, disregarding Zeus the guardian of the city and Athene, who are the partners of the state, and overthrows the foundations of society for the sake of a little gain, in his case let the law and the Gods maintain the common bonds of the state. And let him who, having already received the work in exchange, does not pay the price in the time agreed, pay double the price; and if a year has elapsed, although interest is not to be taken on loans, yet for every drachma which he owes to the contractor let him pay a monthly interest of an obol. Suits about these matters are to be decided by the courts of the tribes; and by the way, since we have mentioned craftsmen at all, we must not forget that other craft of war, in which generals and tacticians are the craftsmen, who undertake voluntarily or involuntarily the work of our safety, as other craftsmen undertake other public works—if they execute their work well the law will never tire of praising him who gives them those honours which are the just rewards of the soldier; but if any one, having already received the benefit of any noble service in war, does not make the due return of honour, the law will blame him. Let this then be the law, having an ingredient of praise, not compelling but advising the great body of the citizens to honour the brave men who are the saviours of the whole state, whether by their courage or by their military skill—they should honour them, I say, in the second place; for the first and highest tribute of respect is to be given to those who are able above other men to honour the words of good legislators.
When a man makes an agreement and fails to fulfill it, unless the agreement is prohibited by law or a vote of the assembly, made under unjust pressure, or if unforeseen circumstances prevent him from completing it against his will, the other party can take him to court for breaching the agreement, provided they can't reach a resolution with mediators or neighbors. The group of craftsmen who enhance human life with their skills is dedicated to Hephaestus and Athena; there is also a class of craftsmen who protect the work of all artisans with their defensive arts, dedicated to Ares and Athena as well. All of these individuals serve the country and its people throughout their lives; some lead in battle, while others provide tools and services for hire, and they should not deceive others in these matters out of respect for the gods who are their ancestors. If any craftsman neglects to complete his work on time, disrespecting the god who provides him with a livelihood and foolishly thinking he can escape consequences, he will first face the god's judgment, and secondly, the law will respond similarly. He will owe the person he contracted with the price for the work he failed to deliver, and he must redo the tasks without charge within the agreed timeframe. When a man takes on a task, the law advises him similarly to sellers not to raise the price but simply to ask for its value; this is also required of contractors, as the craftsman knows the true value of his work. Therefore, in free states, an artist should not try to deceive individuals using his craft, which is inherently honest; anyone wronged in this manner will have the right to pursue legal action against the offender. If someone hires a craftsman and does not pay him as agreed, ignoring Zeus, the protector of the city, and Athena, who are the state's partners, thereby undermining society for a little profit, the law and the gods will uphold the societal agreement. Moreover, if someone has already received the work but fails to pay on time, he will owe double the agreed amount; and if a year passes without payment, even though interest isn't typically charged on loans, he must pay a monthly interest of an obol for every drachma owed to the contractor. Disputes about these matters will be settled in tribal courts; and since we mentioned craftsmen, we must not overlook the craft of war, where generals and strategists take on the task of our safety as other craftsmen do with public works. If they perform well, the law will always praise those who recognize their contributions with the honors that are just rewards for soldiers; but if someone fails to show due respect after benefiting from a noble service in war, the law will hold him accountable. Let this be the law, which includes praise, encouraging the citizens to honor the brave individuals who save the entire state, whether through their courage or military expertise. They should be honored, but the highest respect should go to those capable of upholding the words of good legislators.
The greater part of the dealings between man and man have been now regulated by us with the exception of those that relate to orphans and the supervision of orphans by their guardians. These follow next in order, and must be regulated in some way. But to arrive at them we must begin with the testamentary wishes of the dying and the case of those who may have happened to die intestate. When I said, Cleinias, that we must regulate them, I had in my mind the difficulty and perplexity in which all such matters are involved. You cannot leave them unregulated, for individuals would make regulations at variance with one another, and repugnant to the laws and habits of the living and to their own previous habits, if a person were simply allowed to make any will which he pleased, and this were to take effect in whatever state he may have been at the end of his life; for most of us lose our senses in a manner, and feel crushed when we think that we are about to die.
Most of the interactions between people have now been managed by us, except for those concerning orphans and their guardianship. These issues come next and need to be addressed somehow. To tackle them, we need to start with the wishes of the dying and the situation of those who may have died without a will. When I mentioned to you, Cleinias, that we need to regulate these matters, I was thinking about the difficulty and confusion that surrounds such issues. We can't leave them unregulated because individuals would create conflicting rules that would clash with each other, as well as with the laws and customs of the living, as well as their own past behaviors. If someone were just allowed to write any will they wanted, and it took effect based on their final state of mind, it would be problematic since many of us lose our clarity and feel overwhelmed when we realize we're approaching death.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, Stranger?
CLEINIAS: What are you talking about, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: O Cleinias, a man when he is about to die is an intractable creature, and is apt to use language which causes a great deal of anxiety and trouble to the legislator.
ATHENIAN: O Cleinias, a man facing death is a difficult person, and he tends to say things that create a lot of anxiety and trouble for the lawmaker.
CLEINIAS: In what way?
CLEINIAS: How so?
ATHENIAN: He wants to have the entire control of all his property, and will use angry words.
ATHENIAN: He wants to have complete control over all his property, and he'll speak angrily.
CLEINIAS: Such as what?
CLEINIAS: Like what?
ATHENIAN: O ye Gods, he will say, how monstrous that I am not allowed to give, or not to give, my own to whom I will—less to him who has been bad to me, and more to him who has been good to me, and whose badness and goodness have been tested by me in time of sickness or in old age and in every other sort of fortune!
ATHENIAN: Oh, Gods, he will say, how absurd that I'm not allowed to give, or not give, what is mine to whoever I choose—less to someone who has wronged me, and more to someone who has treated me well, and whose actions I've judged during times of illness, old age, and every other kind of hardship!
CLEINIAS: Well, Stranger, and may he not very fairly say so?
CLEINIAS: So, Stranger, can he not say that quite fairly?
ATHENIAN: In my opinion, Cleinias, the ancient legislators were too good-natured, and made laws without sufficient observation or consideration of human things.
ATHENIAN: I think, Cleinias, that the old lawmakers were too kind-hearted and created laws without enough observation or understanding of human nature.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean, my friend, that they were afraid of the testator's reproaches, and so they passed a law to the effect that a man should be allowed to dispose of his property in all respects as he liked; but you and I, if I am not mistaken, will have something better to say to our departing citizens.
ATHENIAN: What I mean, my friend, is that they were worried about the testator's criticisms, so they made a law allowing a person to handle their property however they wanted. But you and I, if I'm not wrong, will have something better to share with our departing citizens.
CLEINIAS: What?
CLEINIAS: Huh?
ATHENIAN: O my friends, we will say to them, hard is it for you, who are creatures of a day, to know what is yours—hard too, as the Delphic oracle says, to know yourselves at this hour. Now I, as the legislator, regard you and your possessions, not as belonging to yourselves, but as belonging to your whole family, both past and future, and yet more do I regard both family and possessions as belonging to the state; wherefore, if some one steals upon you with flattery, when you are tossed on the sea of disease or old age, and persuades you to dispose of your property in a way that is not for the best, I will not, if I can help, allow this; but I will legislate with a view to the whole, considering what is best both for the state and for the family, esteeming as I ought the feelings of an individual at a lower rate; and I hope that you will depart in peace and kindness towards us, as you are going the way of all mankind; and we will impartially take care of all your concerns, not neglecting any of them, if we can possibly help. Let this be our prelude and consolation to the living and dying, Cleinias, and let the law be as follows: He who makes a disposition in a testament, if he be the father of a family, shall first of all inscribe as his heir any one of his sons whom he may think fit; and if he gives any of his children to be adopted by another citizen, let the adoption be inscribed. And if he has a son remaining over and above who has not been adopted upon any lot, and who may be expected to be sent out to a colony according to law, to him his father may give as much as he pleases of the rest of his property, with the exception of the paternal lot and the fixtures on the lot. And if there are other sons, let him distribute among them what there is more than the lot in such portions as he pleases. And if one of the sons has already a house of his own, he shall not give him of the money, nor shall he give money to a daughter who has been betrothed, but if she is not betrothed he may give her money. And if any of the sons or daughters shall be found to have another lot of land in the country, which has accrued after the testament has been made, they shall leave the lot which they have inherited to the heir of the man who has made the will. If the testator has no sons, but only daughters, let him choose the husband of any one of his daughters whom he pleases, and leave and inscribe him as his son and heir. And if a man have lost his son, when he was a child, and before he could be reckoned among grown up men, whether his own or an adopted son, let the testator make mention of the circumstance and inscribe whom he will to be his second son in hope of better fortune. If the testator has no children at all, he may select and give to any one whom he pleases the tenth part of the property which he has acquired; but let him not be blamed if he gives all the rest to his adopted son, and makes a friend of him according to the law. If the sons of a man require guardians, and the father when he dies leaves a will appointing guardians, those who have been named by him, whoever they are and whatever their number be, if they are able and willing to take charge of the children, shall be recognised according to the provisions of the will. But if he dies and has made no will, or a will in which he has appointed no guardians, then the next of kin, two on the father's and two on the mother's side, and one of the friends of the deceased, shall have the authority of guardians, whom the guardians of the law shall appoint when the orphans require guardians. And the fifteen eldest guardians of the law shall have the whole care and charge of the orphans, divided into threes according to seniority—a body of three for one year, and then another body of three for the next year, until the cycle of the five periods is complete; and this, as far as possible, is to continue always. If a man dies, having made no will at all, and leaves sons who require the care of guardians, they shall share in the protection which is afforded by these laws. And if a man dying by some unexpected fate leaves daughters behind him, let him pardon the legislator if when he gives them in marriage, he have a regard only to two out of three conditions—nearness of kin and the preservation of the lot, and omits the third condition, which a father would naturally consider, for he would choose out of all the citizens a son for himself, and a husband for his daughter, with a view to his character and disposition—the father, I say, shall forgive the legislator if he disregards this, which to him is an impossible consideration. Let the law about these matters where practicable be as follows: If a man dies without making a will, and leaves behind him daughters, let his brother, being the son of the same father or of the same mother, having no lot, marry the daughter and have the lot of the dead man. And if he have no brother, but only a brother's son, in like manner let them marry, if they be of a suitable age; and if there be not even a brother's son, but only the son of a sister, let them do likewise, and so in the fourth degree, if there be only the testator's father's brother, or in the fifth degree, his father's brother's son, or in the sixth degree, the child of his father's sister. Let kindred be always reckoned in this way: if a person leaves daughters the relationship shall proceed upwards through brothers and sisters, and brothers' and sisters' children, and first the males shall come, and after them the females in the same family. The judge shall consider and determine the suitableness or unsuitableness of age in marriage; he shall make an inspection of the males naked, and of the women naked down to the navel. And if there be a lack of kinsmen in a family extending to grandchildren of a brother, or to the grandchildren of a grandfather's children, the maiden may choose with the consent of her guardians any one of the citizens who is willing and whom she wills, and he shall be the heir of the dead man, and the husband of his daughter. Circumstances vary, and there may sometimes be a still greater lack of relations within the limits of the state; and if any maiden has no kindred living in the city, and there is some one who has been sent out to a colony, and she is disposed to make him the heir of her father's possessions, if he be indeed of her kindred, let him proceed to take the lot according to the regulation of the law; but if he be not of her kindred, she having no kinsmen within the city, and he be chosen by the daughter of the dead man, and empowered to marry by the guardians, let him return home and take the lot of him who died intestate. And if a man has no children, either male or female, and dies without making a will, let the previous law in general hold; and let a man and a woman go forth from the family and share the deserted house, and let the lot belong absolutely to them; and let the heiress in the first degree be a sister, and in a second degree a daughter of a brother, and in the third, a daughter of a sister, in the fourth degree the sister of a father, and in the fifth degree the daughter of a father's brother, and in a sixth degree of a father's sister; and these shall dwell with their male kinsmen, according to the degree of relationship and right, as we enacted before. Now we must not conceal from ourselves that such laws are apt to be oppressive and that there may sometimes be a hardship in the lawgiver commanding the kinsman of the dead man to marry his relation; he may be thought not to have considered the innumerable hindrances which may arise among men in the execution of such ordinances; for there may be cases in which the parties refuse to obey, and are ready to do anything rather than marry, when there is some bodily or mental malady or defect among those who are bidden to marry or be married. Persons may fancy that the legislator never thought of this, but they are mistaken; wherefore let us make a common prelude on behalf of the lawgiver and of his subjects, the law begging the latter to forgive the legislator, in that he, having to take care of the common weal, cannot order at the same time the various circumstances of individuals, and begging him to pardon them if naturally they are sometimes unable to fulfil the act which he in his ignorance imposes upon them.
ATHENIAN: Oh my friends, let’s tell them, it’s tough for you, who are just fleeting beings, to truly know what belongs to you—it's also hard, as the Delphic oracle says, to really know yourselves at this moment. Now, as the lawmaker, I view you and your possessions not as solely yours, but as belonging to your entire family, both the past and the future, and even more so, I see both family and possessions as belonging to the state; therefore, if someone tries to flatter you while you are struggling with illness or old age, persuading you to handle your property in a way that isn’t beneficial, I will do my best to prevent that; instead, I will legislate for the greater good, considering what’s best for both the state and the family, valuing the feelings of an individual less. I hope you will leave us on good terms, as you embark on the same journey as all mankind; and we will take care of all your matters without neglecting any, as much as we can. Let this be our introduction and comfort for the living and the dying, Cleinias, and let the law be as follows: Whoever creates a will, if he is the head of a family, must first name as his heir any son he deems suitable; and if he gives any of his children to be adopted by another citizen, let that adoption be recorded. If he has a son left who hasn’t been adopted, and who might be sent off to a colony according to the law, he can give him whatever he likes from the remaining property, except for the paternal lot and its fixtures. If there are other sons, he can divide whatever is left among them in his preferred portions. If one son already has his own house, he won’t be given any money; nor will a daughter who is engaged, but if she is not engaged, he may give her money. If any sons or daughters are found to have another piece of land that has come to them after the will was made, they must leave the inherited lot to the heir named in the will. If the testator has no sons, only daughters, he should choose the husband of any of his daughters he wishes and name him as his son and heir. If a man loses his son when he is still a child, and before he can be considered an adult, whether it’s his biological or adopted son, the testator should mention this and name someone else as his second son in hope of better luck. If the testator has no children at all, he may select and give any person he chooses one-tenth of his acquired property; but no one should blame him if he gives all the rest to his adopted son and treats him as a friend according to the law. If the sons of a man need guardians, and the father leaves a will appointing guardians, those named, no matter who they are or how many, will be recognized as guardians if they are able and willing to care for the children. But if he passes away without a will, or creates a will without naming guardians, then the next of kin—two from the father's side and two from the mother's side—along with one friend of the deceased, shall take on the role of guardians, appointed by law when the orphans require guardians. The fifteen oldest guardians will oversee all the orphans, divided into groups of three according to seniority; one group for one year, followed by another group for the next year, until a full cycle of five years is completed; this should continue as much as possible. If a man dies without a will and leaves behind sons needing guardianship, they will receive the protection provided by these laws. If a man dies unexpectedly and leaves daughters behind, let him pardon the legislator if, in giving them in marriage, he considers only two out of three factors—closeness of kin and preservation of the estate—while omitting the third, which a father would naturally prioritize, seeking a suitable partner among all citizens based on character and disposition. The father, I say, should forgive the legislator for neglecting this, which is an impossible consideration for him. Let the law regarding these matters, where feasible, be as follows: If a man dies without a will and leaves daughters, let his brother, the son of the same father or mother, with no estate of his own, marry the daughter and inherit the estate of the deceased. If he has no brother, but only a brother's son, let them marry if they are of appropriate age; and if there isn’t even a brother's son, but only a sister's son, let them proceed in the same manner, and this extends to the fourth degree if only the testator's father's brother remains, or the fifth degree, his father's brother's son, or the sixth degree, the child of his father's sister. Kinship should always be recognized in this way: if a person leaves behind daughters, the relationship will be traced upward through siblings and their offspring, prioritizing males, then females within the same family. The judge will assess the appropriateness of age for marriage; he shall examine the males unclothed, and the females unclothed down to the navel. If there are no kinsmen within the family extending up to the grandchildren of a brother or grandfather's children, the maiden may choose any citizen, with her guardians' consent, who is willing to marry her, and he will become the heir to the deceased and her husband. Circumstances vary, and there may be even fewer relatives within the state; if any maiden has no relatives in the city, and there’s someone sent to a colony she wishes to name as her father's heir, and if he indeed is of her kin, let him take the lot according to the law. But if he’s not related to her, and since she has no kinsmen in the city, if she chooses him and he’s authorized by the guardians, he may go home and take the estate of the man who died without a will. If a man has no children, male or female, and dies without creating a will, the previous general law will apply; let a man and woman come from the family and share the abandoned home, and the estate shall belong completely to them; let the nearest heiress be a sister, the second nearest a daughter of a brother, the third a daughter of a sister, the fourth the sister of a father, the fifth the daughter of a father's brother, and the sixth the daughter of a father's sister; and these should live with their male relatives according to their degree of kinship and rights, as previously enacted. Now, we must acknowledge that such laws can be burdensome and can sometimes impose hardships on the lawmaker when he mandates that the relative of the deceased marry their kin; he might be viewed as not considering the countless obstacles that can arise among individuals fulfilling such mandates, since there can be situations where the parties refuse to comply and would rather do anything than marry, especially if there’s some physical or mental ailment affecting those urged to marry. People might think the legislator never contemplated this, but that’s a misunderstanding; therefore, let’s prepare a common preamble on behalf of the lawmaker and his subjects, with the law imploring them to forgive the legislator for, while striving for the common good, he cannot simultaneously account for every unique individual circumstance, and also asking him to pardon them when, naturally, they are sometimes unable to carry out the acts that he, perhaps in ignorance, has imposed on them.
CLEINIAS: And how, Stranger, can we act most fairly under the circumstances?
CLEINIAS: So, Stranger, what's the best way for us to be fair in this situation?
ATHENIAN: There must be arbiters chosen to deal with such laws and the subjects of them.
ATHENIAN: We need to choose mediators to handle these laws and their topics.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I mean to say, that a case may occur in which the nephew, having a rich father, will be unwilling to marry the daughter of his uncle; he will have a feeling of pride, and he will wish to look higher. And there are cases in which the legislator will be imposing upon him the greatest calamity, and he will be compelled to disobey the law, if he is required, for example, to take a wife who is mad, or has some other terrible malady of soul or body, such as makes life intolerable to the sufferer. Then let what we are saying concerning these cases be embodied in a law: If any one finds fault with the established laws respecting testaments, both as to other matters and especially in what relates to marriage, and asserts that the legislator, if he were alive and present, would not compel him to obey—that is to say, would not compel those who are by our law required to marry or be given in marriage, to do either—and some kinsman or guardian dispute this, the reply is that the legislator left fifteen of the guardians of the law to be arbiters and fathers of orphans, male or female, and to them let the disputants have recourse, and by their aid determine any matters of the kind, admitting their decision to be final. But if any one thinks that too great power is thus given to the guardians of the law, let him bring his adversaries into the court of the select judges, and there have the points in dispute determined. And he who loses the cause shall have censure and blame from the legislator, which, by a man of sense, is felt to be a penalty far heavier than a great loss of money.
ATHENIAN: I want to say that there might be a situation where the nephew, having a wealthy father, wouldn't want to marry his uncle’s daughter; he'd feel a sense of pride and want to aim higher. There are situations where the law would be putting him through a serious hardship, forcing him to break the law if he’s required, for instance, to marry someone who is insane or has some other awful condition of mind or body that makes life unbearable for them. So, let's make what we're discussing about these situations part of the law: If someone criticizes the established laws regarding wills, other matters, and particularly marriage, claiming that if the lawmaker were alive and present, he wouldn’t force them to comply—that is, wouldn’t force those who are required by our law to marry or be married—to do either, and if a relative or guardian contests this, the response is that the lawmaker appointed fifteen guardians of the law to serve as mediators and protectors of orphans, whether male or female, and the disputants should turn to them for help, accepting their decision as final. However, if someone believes that this gives the guardians of the law too much power, they can bring their opponents to the court of selected judges to resolve the disputes there. The party who loses the case will receive criticism and reproach from the lawmaker, which a sensible person would find to be a punishment far worse than a substantial financial loss.
Thus will orphan children have a second birth. After their first birth we spoke of their nurture and education, and after their second birth, when they have lost their parents, we ought to take measures that the misfortune of orphanhood may be as little sad to them as possible. In the first place, we say that the guardians of the law are lawgivers and fathers to them, not inferior to their natural fathers. Moreover, they shall take charge of them year by year as of their own kindred; and we have given both to them and to the children's own guardians as suitable admonition concerning the nurture of orphans. And we seem to have spoken opportunely in our former discourse, when we said that the souls of the dead have the power after death of taking an interest in human affairs, about which there are many tales and traditions, long indeed, but true; and seeing that they are so many and so ancient, we must believe them, and we must also believe the lawgivers, who tell us that these things are true, if they are not to be regarded as utter fools. But if these things are really so, in the first place men should have a fear of the Gods above, who regard the loneliness of the orphans; and in the second place of the souls of the departed, who by nature incline to take an especial care of their own children, and are friendly to those who honour, and unfriendly to those who dishonour them. Men should also fear the souls of the living who are aged and high in honour; wherever a city is well ordered and prosperous, their descendants cherish them, and so live happily; old persons are quick to see and hear all that relates to them, and are propitious to those who are just in the fulfilment of such duties, and they punish those who wrong the orphan and the desolate, considering that they are the greatest and most sacred of trusts. To all which matters the guardian and magistrate ought to apply his mind, if he has any, and take heed of the nurture and education of the orphans, seeking in every possible way to do them good, for he is making a contribution to his own good and that of his children. He who obeys the tale which precedes the law, and does no wrong to an orphan, will never experience the wrath of the legislator. But he who is disobedient, and wrongs any one who is bereft of father or mother, shall pay twice the penalty which he would have paid if he had wronged one whose parents had been alive. As touching other legislation concerning guardians in their relation to orphans, or concerning magistrates and their superintendence of the guardians, if they did not possess examples of the manner in which children of freemen would be brought up in the bringing up of their own children, and of the care of their property in the care of their own, or if they had not just laws fairly stated about these very things—there would have been reason in making laws for them, under the idea that they were a peculiar class, and we might distinguish and make separate rules for the life of those who are orphans and of those who are not orphans. But as the case stands, the condition of orphans with us is not different from the case of those who have a father, though in regard to honour and dishonour, and the attention given to them, the two are not usually placed upon a level. Wherefore, touching the legislation about orphans, the law speaks in serious accents, both of persuasion and threatening, and such a threat as the following will be by no means out of place: He who is the guardian of an orphan of either sex, and he among the guardians of the law to whom the superintendence of this guardian has been assigned, shall love the unfortunate orphan as though he were his own child, and he shall be as careful and diligent in the management of his possessions as he would be if they were his own, or even more careful and diligent. Let every one who has the care of an orphan observe this law. But any one who acts contrary to the law on these matters, if he be a guardian of the child, may be fined by a magistrate, or, if he be himself a magistrate, the guardian may bring him before the court of select judges, and punish him, if convicted, by exacting a fine of double the amount of that inflicted by the court. And if a guardian appears to the relations of the orphan, or to any other citizen, to act negligently or dishonestly, let them bring him before the same court, and whatever damages are given against him, let him pay fourfold, and let half belong to the orphan and half to him who procured the conviction. If any orphan arrives at years of discretion, and thinks that he has been ill-used by his guardians, let him within five years of the expiration of the guardianship be allowed to bring them to trial; and if any of them be convicted, the court shall determine what he shall pay or suffer. And if a magistrate shall appear to have wronged the orphan by neglect, and he be convicted, let the court determine what he shall suffer or pay to the orphan, and if there be dishonesty in addition to neglect, besides paying the fine, let him be deposed from his office of guardian of the law, and let the state appoint another guardian of the law for the city and for the country in his room.
Thus, orphaned children will have a second chance at life. After their first birth, we talked about their upbringing and education, and after their second birth, when they have lost their parents, we should take steps to ensure that the tragedy of being an orphan is as little upsetting to them as possible. First of all, we say that the guardians of the law are like lawgivers and fathers to them, just as good as their biological fathers. Furthermore, they will care for them year after year as if they were their own kin; and we have provided both them and the children’s own guardians with appropriate advice regarding the care of orphans. We seem to have spoken at a good time in our previous discussion when we mentioned that the souls of the dead can take an interest in human affairs after death, which is supported by many long but true tales and traditions; and since these stories are numerous and ancient, we must believe them, and we must also trust the lawgivers who tell us that these things are true, unless we want to consider them complete fools. But if these things are indeed true, first, people should fear the Gods above, who take note of the loneliness of orphans; and second, the souls of the departed, who naturally tend to care especially for their own children and favor those who show them respect while disfavoring those who dishonor them. People should also fear the souls of the living who are elderly and held in high regard; in well-ordered and prosperous cities, their descendants honor them, leading to happiness; elderly people are quick to see and hear all that relates to them, and they are favorable to those who fulfill their duties justly, punishing those who wrong orphans and the downtrodden, viewing them as the greatest and most sacred of responsibilities. To all these matters, the guardian and magistrate should focus their thoughts, if they have any, and pay attention to the care and education of orphans, seeking every possible way to help them, for in doing so, he contributes to his own well-being and that of his children. Those who follow the story that precedes the law and do not harm an orphan will never face the legislator's wrath. However, those who disobey and wrong anyone left without a father or mother will pay twice the penalty they would have faced if they had wronged someone whose parents were alive. Regarding other laws about guardians in their relation to orphans, or concerning magistrates and their oversight of guardians, if they did not have examples of how free children would be raised in relation to their own children or how to manage their property responsibly, or if they lacked just laws clearly stated about these matters—there would be reason to create laws for them, operating under the idea that they were a special class, and we could differentiate and create separate rules for the lives of orphans compared to those who are not orphans. But as things stand, the situation of orphans among us is not different from that of those who have a father, although when it comes to honor and dishonor, and the attention given to them, the two groups are usually not treated equally. Therefore, regarding laws about orphans, the law speaks in serious terms, both persuasive and threatening, and a threat like the following will certainly be appropriate: He who is the guardian of an orphan of any gender, and the law guardian responsible for overseeing this guardian, should love the unfortunate orphan as if he were his own child, and he should be as careful and diligent in managing the orphan's possessions as he would be if they were his own, or even more careful and diligent. Let everyone charged with an orphan heed this law. Anyone who violates this law, if he is a guardian of the child, may be fined by a magistrate, or if he is a magistrate himself, the guardian may bring him before the court of select judges and punish him, if convicted, by imposing a fine double that of what the court would have given. If a guardian seems negligent or dishonest to the orphan’s relatives or any other citizen, they should bring him before the same court, and any damages imposed against him should be paid fourfold, with half going to the orphan and half to the person who secured the conviction. If any orphan reaches an age of understanding and believes he has been mistreated by his guardians, he should be allowed to bring them to trial within five years of the end of the guardianship; and if any of them are convicted, the court will decide what they shall pay or endure. And if a magistrate seems to have wronged the orphan by negligence and is convicted, the court will determine what he should suffer or pay to the orphan, and if there is dishonesty in addition to the negligence, he should not only pay the fine but also be removed from his position as guardian of the law, and the state will appoint another guardian of the law for the city and the country to replace him.
Greater differences than there ought to be sometimes arise between fathers and sons, on the part either of fathers who will be of opinion that the legislator should enact that they may, if they wish, lawfully renounce their son by the proclamation of a herald in the face of the world, or of sons who think that they should be allowed to indict their fathers on the charge of imbecility when they are disabled by disease or old age. These things only happen, as a matter of fact, where the natures of men are utterly bad; for where only half is bad, as, for example, if the father be not bad, but the son be bad, or conversely, no great calamity is the result of such an amount of hatred as this. In another state, a son disowned by his father would not of necessity cease to be a citizen, but in our state, of which these are to be the laws, the disinherited must necessarily emigrate into another country, for no addition can be made even of a single family to the 5040 households; and, therefore, he who deserves to suffer these things must be renounced not only by his father, who is a single person, but by the whole family, and what is done in these cases must be regulated by some such law as the following: He who in the sad disorder of his soul has a mind, justly or unjustly, to expel from his family a son whom he has begotten and brought up, shall not lightly or at once execute his purpose; but first of all he shall collect together his own kinsmen, extending to cousins, and in like manner his son's kinsmen by the mother's side, and in their presence he shall accuse his son, setting forth that he deserves at the hands of them all to be dismissed from the family; and the son shall be allowed to address them in a similar manner, and show that he does not deserve to suffer any of these things. And if the father persuades them, and obtains the suffrages of more than half of his kindred, exclusive of the father and mother and the offender himself—I say, if he obtains more than half the suffrages of all the other grown-up members of the family, of both sexes, the father shall be permitted to put away his son, but not otherwise. And if any other citizen is willing to adopt the son who is put away, no law shall hinder him; for the characters of young men are subject to many changes in the course of their lives. And if he has been put away, and in a period of ten years no one is willing to adopt him, let those who have the care of the superabundant population which is sent out into colonies, see to him, in order that he may be suitably provided for in the colony. And if disease or age or harshness of temper, or all these together, makes a man to be more out of his mind than the rest of the world are—but this is not observable, except to those who live with him—and he, being master of his property, is the ruin of the house, and his son doubts and hesitates about indicting his father for insanity, let the law in that case ordain that he shall first of all go to the eldest guardians of the law and tell them of his father's misfortune, and they shall duly look into the matter, and take counsel as to whether he shall indict him or not. And if they advise him to proceed, they shall be both his witnesses and his advocates; and if the father is cast, he shall henceforth be incapable of ordering the least particular of his life; let him be as a child dwelling in the house for the remainder of his days. And if a man and his wife have an unfortunate incompatibility of temper, ten of the guardians of the law, who are impartial, and ten of the women who regulate marriages, shall look to the matter, and if they are able to reconcile them they shall be formally reconciled; but if their souls are too much tossed with passion, they shall endeavour to find other partners. Now they are not likely to have very gentle tempers; and, therefore, we must endeavour to associate with them deeper and softer natures. Those who have no children, or only a few, at the time of their separation, should choose their new partners with a view to the procreation of children; but those who have a sufficient number of children should separate and marry again in order that they may have some one to grow old with and that the pair may take care of one another in age. If a woman dies, leaving children, male or female, the law will advise rather than compel the husband to bring up the children without introducing into the house a stepmother. But if he have no children, then he shall be compelled to marry until he has begotten a sufficient number of sons to his family and to the state. And if a man dies leaving a sufficient number of children, the mother of his children shall remain with them and bring them up. But if she appears to be too young to live virtuously without a husband, let her relations communicate with the women who superintend marriage, and let both together do what they think best in these matters; if there is a lack of children, let the choice be made with a view to having them; two children, one of either sex, shall be deemed sufficient in the eye of the law. When a child is admitted to be the offspring of certain parents and is acknowledged by them, but there is need of a decision as to which parent the child is to follow—in case a female slave have intercourse with a male slave, or with a freeman or freedman, the offspring shall always belong to the master of the female slave. Again, if a free woman have intercourse with a male slave, the offspring shall belong to the master of the slave; but if a child be born either of a slave by her master, or of his mistress by a slave—and this be proven—the offspring of the woman and its father shall be sent away by the women who superintend marriage into another country, and the guardians of the law shall send away the offspring of the man and its mother.
Sometimes, greater differences emerge between fathers and sons than there should be. This can happen when fathers believe the law should allow them to renounce their son publicly, or when sons think they should be able to charge their fathers with incompetence due to disease or old age. These situations typically arise only when people's natures are utterly bad; if only one party is bad—like a good father with a bad son, or vice versa—then such hatred doesn't lead to major disasters. In another society, a son disowned by his father wouldn't necessarily stop being a citizen. However, in our society, which follows these laws, the disinherited must emigrate to another country since no additional families can be added to the existing 5040 households. Therefore, someone deserving such treatment must be disowned not only by their father but by the entire family. The law for these cases should state that if a father wants to expel a son he has raised, he cannot do this lightly or immediately. First, he must gather his relatives, including cousins, along with the son's maternal relatives. In their presence, he will accuse his son and state why he believes the son deserves to be expelled. The son will have the opportunity to address them as well and prove he doesn't deserve this punishment. If the father convinces them and gets more than half of his relatives to support him, excluding the father, mother, and the accused son—meaning he gets more than half of the votes from all other adult family members, both men and women—then the father may disown the son, but not otherwise. If another citizen wants to adopt the disowned son, no law will prevent this, as young people's characters can change significantly throughout their lives. If he is disowned and no one is willing to adopt him within ten years, those responsible for managing the excess population sent to colonies should make sure he is properly cared for there. If disease, age, or a bad temper makes a man seem out of touch with reality—and only those who live with him might notice—and he, while managing his property, becomes a burden to the household, and his son hesitates to accuse his father of insanity, then the law should state that the son must first go to the senior guardians of the law and inform them of his father's situation. They will investigate the issue and decide whether he should proceed with the accusation. If they advise moving forward, they will witness and support him. If the father is judged to be unfit, he will lose the ability to manage any part of his life, basically becoming like a child living in the house for the rest of his days. If a married couple cannot get along, ten impartial guardians of the law and ten women overseeing marriage should evaluate the situation. If they're able to reconcile them, they will formalize that reconciliation. But if the couple is too emotionally tumultuous, they will seek other partners. It's unlikely that they would have gentle dispositions; thus, we should aim to pair them with individuals who have more nurturing personalities. Those without children or with only a few at the time of their separation should choose new partners with the intention of having children. Those with a sufficient number of children should separate and remarry so they can have someone to grow old with and care for each other in their later years. If a woman dies leaving children, the law will recommend rather than force the husband to raise the children without introducing a stepmother. But if he has no children, he must marry again until he has enough sons for both his family and the state. If a man dies leaving enough children behind, their mother will stay with them to raise them. However, if she seems too young to remain virtuous without a husband, her relatives should talk to the women overseeing marriage, and together they should determine the best course of action; if children are lacking, the choice should focus on producing them, with two children of either sex considered sufficient by the law. When a child is confirmed to be the offspring of certain parents and acknowledged by them, but there is a need to decide which parent the child will belong to—if a female slave has relations with a male slave, freeman, or freedman, the child will always belong to the master of the female slave. If a free woman has relations with a male slave, the child will belong to the master of the slave. If a child is born from the union of a slave and her master, or a mistress and a slave—and this is proven—the child from the woman and its father will be sent away to another country by the women overseeing marriage, and the guardians of the law will send away the offspring of the man and its mother.
Neither God, nor a man who has understanding, will ever advise any one to neglect his parents. To a discourse concerning the honour and dishonour of parents, a prelude such as the following, about the service of the Gods, will be a suitable introduction: There are ancient customs about the Gods which are universal, and they are of two kinds: some of the Gods we see with our eyes and we honour them, of others we honour the images, raising statues of them which we adore; and though they are lifeless, yet we imagine that the living Gods have a good will and gratitude to us on this account. Now, if a man has a father or mother, or their fathers or mothers treasured up in his house stricken in years, let him consider that no statue can be more potent to grant his requests than they are, who are sitting at his hearth, if only he knows how to show true service to them.
Neither God nor a wise person would ever suggest that someone neglect their parents. To introduce a discussion about the honor and dishonor of parents, it’s fitting to start with a topic like the service of the Gods. There are ancient customs regarding the Gods that are widely recognized, and they come in two forms: we honor some Gods that we can see, and for others, we respect their images by creating statues that we worship. Even though these statues are lifeless, we believe that the living Gods appreciate our devotion and goodwill. Now, if someone has an elderly father or mother, or even their grandparents, living in their home, they should realize that no statue is more powerful in granting their wishes than their own parents sitting by the hearth, as long as they know how to show them true respect and service.
CLEINIAS: And what do you call the true mode of service?
CLEINIAS: So, what do you mean by the real way of serving?
ATHENIAN: I will tell you, O my friend, for such things are worth listening to.
ATHENIAN: I’ll tell you, my friend, because this stuff is worth hearing.
CLEINIAS: Proceed.
Go ahead.
ATHENIAN: Oedipus, as tradition says, when dishonoured by his sons, invoked on them curses which every one declares to have been heard and ratified by the Gods, and Amyntor in his wrath invoked curses on his son Phoenix, and Theseus upon Hippolytus, and innumerable others have also called down wrath upon their children, whence it is clear that the Gods listen to the imprecations of parents; for the curses of parents are, as they ought to be, mighty against their children as no others are. And shall we suppose that the prayers of a father or mother who is specially dishonoured by his or her children, are heard by the Gods in accordance with nature; and that if a parent is honoured by them, and in the gladness of his heart earnestly entreats the Gods in his prayers to do them good, he is not equally heard, and that they do not minister to his request? If not, they would be very unjust ministers of good, and that we affirm to be contrary to their nature.
ATHENIAN: Oedipus, as tradition says, when disrespected by his sons, cursed them, and everyone agrees these curses were heard and confirmed by the Gods. Likewise, Amyntor, in his anger, cursed his son Phoenix, and Theseus cursed Hippolytus, along with countless others who have called down wrath upon their children. This shows that the Gods pay attention to the curses of parents; for the curses of parents are, as they should be, powerful against their children like no others. Should we assume that the prayers of a father or mother who feels particularly dishonored by their children are heard by the Gods according to nature? And that if a parent is honored by their children and sincerely prays to the Gods, asking for their good, they are not heard equally, and that the Gods do not respond to their requests? If that were the case, the Gods would be very unjust in their role as givers of good, which we claim goes against their nature.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: Of course.
ATHENIAN: May we not think, as I was saying just now, that we can possess no image which is more honoured by the Gods, than that of a father or grandfather, or of a mother stricken in years? whom when a man honours, the heart of the God rejoices, and he is ready to answer their prayers. And, truly, the figure of an ancestor is a wonderful thing, far higher than that of a lifeless image. For the living, when they are honoured by us, join in our prayers, and when they are dishonoured, they utter imprecations against us; but lifeless objects do neither. And therefore, if a man makes a right use of his father and grandfather and other aged relations, he will have images which above all others will win him the favour of the Gods.
ATHENIAN: Can we not agree, as I mentioned earlier, that there is no image more revered by the Gods than that of a father or grandfather, or of an elderly mother? When a person honors them, the heart of the God rejoices, and He is ready to answer their prayers. Indeed, the image of an ancestor is incredibly special, far greater than that of an inanimate object. For those who are alive, when we honor them, they join in our prayers, and when we disrespect them, they cast curses upon us; but lifeless things do neither. Therefore, if someone properly honors their father, grandfather, and other elderly relatives, they will have images that above all others will earn them the favor of the Gods.
CLEINIAS: Excellent.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Every man of any understanding fears and respects the prayers of parents, knowing well that many times and to many persons they have been accomplished. Now these things being thus ordered by nature, good men think it a blessing from heaven if their parents live to old age and reach the utmost limit of human life, or if taken away before their time they are deeply regretted by them; but to bad men parents are always a cause of terror. Wherefore let every man honour with every sort of lawful honour his own parents, agreeably to what has now been said. But if this prelude be an unmeaning sound in the ears of any one, let the law follow, which may be rightly imposed in these terms: If any one in this city be not sufficiently careful of his parents, and do not regard and gratify in every respect their wishes more than those of his sons and of his other offspring or of himself—let him who experiences this sort of treatment either come himself, or send some one to inform the three eldest guardians of the law, and three of the women who have the care of marriages; and let them look to the matter and punish youthful evil-doers with stripes and bonds if they are under thirty years of age, that is to say, if they be men, or if they be women, let them undergo the same punishment up to forty years of age. But if, when they are still more advanced in years, they continue the same neglect of their parents, and do any hurt to any of them, let them be brought before a court in which every single one of the eldest citizens shall be the judges, and if the offender be convicted, let the court determine what he ought to pay or suffer, and any penalty may be imposed on him which a man can pay or suffer. If the person who has been wronged be unable to inform the magistrates, let any freeman who hears of his case inform, and if he do not, he shall be deemed base, and shall be liable to have a suit for damage brought against him by any one who likes. And if a slave inform, he shall receive freedom; and if he be the slave of the injurer or injured party, he shall be set free by the magistrates, or if he belong to any other citizen, the public shall pay a price on his behalf to the owner; and let the magistrates take heed that no one wrongs him out of revenge, because he has given information.
ATHENIAN: Every mindful person fears and respects the prayers of their parents, knowing well that they are often fulfilled for many individuals. Given this natural order, good people consider it a blessing from above if their parents live to a ripe old age and reach the fullest extent of life; or if they pass away too soon, they are profoundly missed. In contrast, bad people always feel dread towards their parents. Therefore, everyone should honor their parents in every lawful way, according to what has just been said. However, if this introduction sounds meaningless to anyone, let the law state: If anyone in this city does not properly care for their parents, and does not prioritize their wishes over those of their children or themselves—let that person or someone on their behalf inform the three eldest guardians of the law and three women responsible for marriages; they should investigate the matter and punish young wrongdoers with physical beatings and restraints if they are under thirty years old, meaning if they are men. Women should receive the same punishment up to forty years old. But if, as they age further, they continue neglecting their parents and cause them harm, they should be brought before a court where all the oldest citizens serve as judges. If the accused is found guilty, the court will decide what they need to pay or endure, imposing any penalty a person can bear. If the person wronged cannot inform the magistrates, any free citizen who learns of the case should do so, and if they do not, they will be considered dishonorable and may face a lawsuit from anyone willing to bring one. If a slave informs the authorities, they will be granted freedom; if they are the slave of the wrongdoer or the victim, they must be freed by the magistrates, or if owned by another citizen, the public will pay a price to the owner for their release. The magistrates must ensure that no one seeks revenge against the informer for providing information.
Cases in which one man injures another by poisons, and which prove fatal, have been already discussed; but about other cases in which a person intentionally and of malice harms another with meats, or drinks, or ointments, nothing has as yet been determined. For there are two kinds of poisons used among men, which cannot clearly be distinguished. There is the kind just now explicitly mentioned, which injures bodies by the use of other bodies according to a natural law; there is also another kind which persuades the more daring class that they can do injury by sorceries, and incantations, and magic knots, as they are termed, and makes others believe that they above all persons are injured by the powers of the magician. Now it is not easy to know the nature of all these things; nor if a man do know can he readily persuade others to believe him. And when men are disturbed in their minds at the sight of waxen images fixed either at their doors, or in a place where three ways meet, or on the sepulchres of parents, there is no use in trying to persuade them that they should despise all such things because they have no certain knowledge about them. But we must have a law in two parts, concerning poisoning, in whichever of the two ways the attempt is made, and we must entreat, and exhort, and advise men not to have recourse to such practises, by which they scare the multitude out of their wits, as if they were children, compelling the legislator and the judge to heal the fears which the sorcerer arouses, and to tell them in the first place, that he who attempts to poison or enchant others knows not what he is doing, either as regards the body (unless he has a knowledge of medicine), or as regards his enchantments (unless he happens to be a prophet or diviner). Let the law, then, run as follows about poisoning or witchcraft: He who employs poison to do any injury, not fatal, to a man himself, or to his servants, or any injury, whether fatal or not, to his cattle or his bees, if he be a physician, and be convicted of poisoning, shall be punished with death; or if he be a private person, the court shall determine what he is to pay or suffer. But he who seems to be the sort of man who injures others by magic knots, or enchantments, or incantations, or any of the like practices, if he be a prophet or diviner, let him die; and if, not being a prophet, he be convicted of witchcraft, as in the previous case, let the court fix what he ought to pay or suffer.
Instances where one person harms another with poison, resulting in death, have been discussed already; however, other situations where someone intentionally and malevolently injures another through food, drinks, or ointments have yet to be resolved. There are two types of poisons used by people that are not easily distinguished. First, there’s the kind that we just talked about, which harms bodies by using other substances according to natural laws. The second type convinces the more reckless individuals that they can inflict harm through sorcery, incantations, and what are called magic knots, making others believe that they, in particular, are victimized by the magician's powers. It is difficult to understand the nature of all these practices; even if someone does understand, it’s not easy to convince others to believe them. When people are troubled by the sight of wax figures placed at their doors, at crossroads, or on their parents’ graves, trying to convince them to disregard these fears is pointless since they lack certainty about them. We need to establish a law in two parts regarding poisoning, regardless of how the act is attempted, and we must encourage, persuade, and advise people not to resort to such practices that terrify the masses as if they were children. This compels lawmakers and judges to alleviate the fears raised by the sorcerer, informing them that anyone attempting to poison or enchant others is unaware of what they are doing, either concerning the body (unless they are knowledgeable about medicine) or regarding their enchantments (unless they happen to be a prophet or diviner). Therefore, let the law state the following about poisoning or witchcraft: Anyone who uses poison to inflict non-fatal harm on a person, their servants, or any harm, fatal or not, to their livestock or bees, shall face the death penalty if they are a physician and found guilty of poisoning. If they are a private citizen, the court will determine the appropriate punishment or fine. Moreover, anyone who appears to harm others through magic knots, enchantments, incantations, or similar practices, if they are a prophet or diviner, should be put to death; and if not a prophet and found guilty of witchcraft, the court will decide what punishment or fine they should receive.
When a man does another any injury by theft or violence, for the greater injury let him pay greater damages to the injured man, and less for the smaller injury; but in all cases, whatever the injury may have been, as much as will compensate the loss. And besides the compensation of the wrong, let a man pay a further penalty for the chastisement of his offence: he who has done the wrong instigated by the folly of another, through the lightheartedness of youth or the like, shall pay a lighter penalty; but he who has injured another through his own folly, when overcome by pleasure or pain, in cowardly fear, or lust, or envy, or implacable anger, shall endure a heavier punishment. Not that he is punished because he did wrong, for that which is done can never be undone, but in order that in future times, he, and those who see him corrected, may utterly hate injustice, or at any rate abate much of their evil-doing. Having an eye to all these things, the law, like a good archer, should aim at the right measure of punishment, and in all cases at the deserved punishment. In the attainment of this the judge shall be a fellow-worker with the legislator, whenever the law leaves to him to determine what the offender shall suffer or pay; and the legislator, like a painter, shall give a rough sketch of the cases in which the law is to be applied. This is what we must do, Megillus and Cleinias, in the best and fairest manner that we can, saying what the punishments are to be of all actions of theft and violence, and giving laws of such a kind as the Gods and sons of Gods would have us give.
When a person causes harm to another through theft or violence, they should pay higher damages for more serious injuries and less for minor ones; in every case, the compensation should cover the loss. In addition to compensating for the wrong done, the offender should face an extra penalty for their actions: someone who commits a wrong out of folly motivated by another, due to youthful carelessness or something similar, should receive a lighter penalty. However, someone who harms another because of their own foolishness—whether due to being overcome by pleasure, pain, cowardice, lust, envy, or uncontrollable anger—should face a heavier punishment. The purpose of the punishment isn’t just to right the wrong, since what's done cannot be undone, but to ensure that in the future, they and others witnessing their correction will truly despise injustice and, at least to some extent, reduce their wrongdoing. Keeping all this in mind, the law, like a skilled archer, should aim for the appropriate level of punishment, ensuring it fits the crime. To achieve this, judges will work alongside lawmakers whenever the law allows them to determine the penalties for offenders, while lawmakers, like artists, will provide an outline for how the law should be enforced. This is what we need to do, Megillus and Cleinias, in the best and fairest way possible, outlining the punishments for all acts of theft and violence, and establishing laws that the Gods and divine beings would approve of.
If a man is mad he shall not be at large in the city, but his relations shall keep him at home in any way which they can; or if not, let them pay a penalty—he who is of the highest class shall pay a penalty of one hundred drachmas, whether he be a slave or a freeman whom he neglects; and he of the second class shall pay four-fifths of a mina; and he of the third class three-fifths; and he of the fourth class two-fifths. Now there are many sorts of madness, some arising out of disease, which we have already mentioned; and there are other kinds, which originate in an evil and passionate temperament, and are increased by bad education; out of a slight quarrel this class of madmen will often raise a storm of abuse against one another, and nothing of that sort ought to be allowed to occur in a well-ordered state. Let this, then, be the law about abuse, which shall relate to all cases: No one shall speak evil of another; and when a man disputes with another he shall teach and learn of the disputant and the company, but he shall abstain from evil-speaking; for out of the imprecations which men utter against one another, and the feminine habit of casting aspersions on one another, and using foul names, out of words light as air, in very deed the greatest enmities and hatreds spring up. For the speaker gratifies his anger, which is an ungracious element of his nature; and nursing up his wrath by the entertainment of evil thoughts, and exacerbating that part of his soul which was formerly civilised by education, he lives in a state of savageness and moroseness, and pays a bitter penalty for his anger. And in such cases almost all men take to saying something ridiculous about their opponent, and there is no man who is in the habit of laughing at another who does not miss virtue and earnestness altogether, or lose the better half of greatness. Wherefore let no one utter any taunting word at a temple, or at the public sacrifices, or at the games, or in the agora, or in a court of justice, or in any public assembly. And let the magistrate who presides on these occasions chastise an offender, and he shall be blameless; but if he fails in doing so, he shall not claim the prize of virtue; for he is one who heeds not the laws, and does not do what the legislator commands. And if in any other place any one indulges in these sort of revilings, whether he has begun the quarrel or is only retaliating, let any elder who is present support the law, and control with blows those who indulge in passion, which is another great evil; and if he do not, let him be liable to pay the appointed penalty. And we say now, that he who deals in reproaches against others cannot reproach them without attempting to ridicule them; and this, when done in a moment of anger, is what we make matter of reproach against him. But then, do we admit into our state the comic writers who are so fond of making mankind ridiculous, if they attempt in a good-natured manner to turn the laugh against our citizens? or do we draw the distinction of jest and earnest, and allow a man to make use of ridicule in jest and without anger about any thing or person; though as we were saying, not if he be angry and have a set purpose? We forbid earnest—that is unalterably fixed; but we have still to say who are to be sanctioned or not to be sanctioned by the law in the employment of innocent humour. A comic poet, or maker of iambic or satirical lyric verse, shall not be permitted to ridicule any of the citizens, either by word or likeness, either in anger or without anger. And if any one is disobedient, the judges shall either at once expel him from the country, or he shall pay a fine of three minae, which shall be dedicated to the God who presides over the contests. Those only who have received permission shall be allowed to write verses at one another, but they shall be without anger and in jest; in anger and in serious earnest they shall not be allowed. The decision of this matter shall be left to the superintendent of the general education of the young, and whatever he may license, the writer shall be allowed to produce, and whatever he rejects let not the poet himself exhibit, or ever teach anybody else, slave or freeman, under the penalty of being dishonoured, and held disobedient to the laws.
If someone is mentally ill, they shouldn’t roam freely in the city, but their family should keep them at home in any way they can; if they can’t, they must pay a fine—someone from the highest class must pay one hundred drachmas, whether they are a slave or a free person they’ve neglected; someone from the second class pays four-fifths of a mina; someone from the third class pays three-fifths; and someone from the fourth class pays two-fifths. There are many types of madness, some caused by illness, which we have already discussed, and others stemming from a bad and passionate temperament, worsened by poor upbringing. From a minor argument, this type of mad person often triggers a torrent of insults towards each other, and such behavior should not be tolerated in a well-ordered society. Therefore, let this be the law regarding insults, applicable to all cases: No one should speak ill of another; and when someone is in a dispute, they should teach and learn from the other person and those around them, but refrain from speaking evil; for from the curses people exchange and the tendency to slander each other, through trivial words, the strongest enmities and animosities arise. The speaker indulges his anger, a negative aspect of his nature; by nurturing his resentment with harmful thoughts and escalating the part of his soul that was once civilized by education, he exists in a state of brutality and bitterness, facing severe consequences for his anger. In such situations, almost everyone resorts to saying something absurd about their opponent, and anyone who regularly laughs at others loses both virtue and seriousness or diminishes their own greatness. Therefore, no one should hurl any insulting words at a temple, during public sacrifices, at games, in the agora, in court, or in any public gathering. The magistrate overseeing these events should punish offenders and will be blameless for doing so; however, if they neglect this duty, they cannot claim moral superiority, as they disregard the laws and fail to uphold what the legislator intends. If anyone engages in insults elsewhere, whether starting the argument or merely retaliating, any elder present should uphold the law and control those who act out of anger, which is another serious issue; and if they do not, they should be subject to the assigned penalty. We maintain that anyone who resorts to insults against others is likely trying to mock them; and this, when done out of anger, is what we consider to be worthy of reproach. But do we allow comic writers to make fun of our citizens, merely for humor, as long as they do so kindly? Or do we draw a line between jest and seriousness, allowing someone to use humor without malice toward any person or thing, but not if they are angry and have a defined purpose? We strictly prohibit earnestness; that is non-negotiable. Yet, we still need to clarify who is allowed by law to use innocent humor. A comic poet, or writer of iambic or satirical verses, shall not be permitted to ridicule any citizens, either verbally or visually, whether angry or not. If anyone disobeys, the judges should either immediately expel them from the land or impose a fine of three minae, to be given to the god overseeing the competitions. Only those with permission may write verses targeting each other, but they must be in a light-hearted manner; creating verses out of anger or seriousness is not allowed. This determination will be left to the supervisor of public education for the youth, and whatever they approve, the writer can produce; whatever they reject, the poet must not present or teach anyone else, whether slave or free, under penalty of dishonor and being deemed disobedient to the law.
Now he is not to be pitied who is hungry, or who suffers any bodily pain, but he who is temperate, or has some other virtue, or part of a virtue, and at the same time suffers from misfortune; it would be an extraordinary thing if such an one, whether slave or freeman, were utterly forsaken and fell into the extremes of poverty in any tolerably well-ordered city or government. Wherefore the legislator may safely make a law applicable to such cases in the following terms: Let there be no beggars in our state; and if anybody begs, seeking to pick up a livelihood by unavailing prayers, let the wardens of the agora turn him out of the agora, and the wardens of the city out of the city, and the wardens of the country send him out of any other parts of the land across the border, in order that the land may be cleared of this sort of animal.
Now, it's not the person who is hungry or in physical pain who deserves pity, but the one who is moderate, holds some other virtue, or embodies part of a virtue, and at the same time faces misfortune. It would be remarkable if such a person, whether enslaved or free, were completely abandoned and fell into extreme poverty in any reasonably well-organized city or society. Therefore, lawmakers can confidently enact a law for such situations with these words: There shall be no beggars in our state; and if anyone begs, trying to make a living through ineffective appeals, let the officials of the marketplace remove them from the marketplace, the city officials remove them from the city, and the rural wardens send them out of any other areas into the neighboring land, so that our land can be rid of this kind of individual.
If a slave of either sex injure anything, which is not his or her own, through inexperience, or some improper practice, and the person who suffers damage be not himself in part to blame, the master of the slave who has done the harm shall either make full satisfaction, or give up the slave who has done the injury. But if the master argue that the charge has arisen by collusion between the injured party and the injurer, with the view of obtaining the slave, let him sue the person, who says that he has been injured, for malpractices. And if he gain a conviction, let him receive double the value which the court fixes as the price of the slave; and if he lose his suit, let him make amends for the injury, and give up the slave. And if a beast of burden, or horse, or dog, or any other animal, injure the property of a neighbour, the owner shall in like manner pay for the injury.
If a slave of either gender damages someone else's property, either due to lack of experience or some wrongful act, and the injured party is not partly to blame, the master of the slave responsible for the damage must either fully compensate the injured party or surrender the slave who caused the harm. However, if the master claims that the accusation is a setup between the injured party and the slave to obtain the slave, the master can sue the person claiming injury for wrongdoing. If the master wins the case, they should receive double the value determined by the court for the slave; if they lose, they must compensate for the damage and surrender the slave. Similarly, if a beast of burden, horse, dog, or any other animal damages a neighbor's property, the owner must pay for the damage.
If any man refuses to be a witness, he who wants him shall summon him, and he who is summoned shall come to the trial; and if he knows and is willing to bear witness, let him bear witness, but if he says he does not know let him swear by the three divinities Zeus, and Apollo, and Themis, that he does not, and have no more to do with the cause. And he who is summoned to give witness and does not answer to his summoner, shall be liable for the harm which ensues according to law. And if a person calls up as a witness any one who is acting as a judge, let him give his witness, but he shall not afterwards vote in the cause. A free woman may give her witness and plead, if she be more than forty years of age, and may bring an action if she have no husband; but if her husband be alive she shall only be allowed to bear witness. A slave of either sex and a child shall be allowed to give evidence and to plead, but only in cases of murder; and they must produce sufficient sureties that they will certainly remain until the trial, in case they should be charged with false witness. And either of the parties in a cause may bring an accusation of perjury against witnesses, touching their evidence in whole or in part, if he asserts that such evidence has been given; but the accusation must be brought previous to the final decision of the cause. The magistrates shall preserve the accusations of false witness, and have them kept under the seal of both parties, and produce them on the day when the trial for false witness takes place. If a man be twice convicted of false witness, he shall not be required, and if thrice, he shall not be allowed to bear witness; and if he dare to witness after he has been convicted three times, let any one who pleases inform against him to the magistrates, and let the magistrates hand him over to the court, and if he be convicted he shall be punished with death. And in any case in which the evidence is rightly found to be false, and yet to have given the victory to him who wins the suit, and more than half the witnesses are condemned, the decision which was gained by these means shall be rescinded, and there shall be a discussion and a decision as to whether the suit was determined by that false evidence or not; and in whichever way the decision may be given, the previous suit shall be determined accordingly.
If anyone refuses to testify, the party requesting their testimony must summon them, and the summoned person must attend the trial. If they know something and are willing to testify, they should do so. However, if they claim ignorance, they must swear by the three gods—Zeus, Apollo, and Themis—that they truly do not know and have no further involvement in the case. If someone is called to testify and fails to respond to the summons, they will be held liable for any damages caused, according to the law. If someone summons a judge as a witness, that judge can provide testimony but cannot later vote on the case. A free woman can testify and advocate for herself, provided she is over forty years old and is not married; if she has a husband, she can only serve as a witness. Both male and female slaves, as well as children, are permitted to give evidence and speak in court, but only in murder cases, and they must provide sufficient guarantees to remain available until the trial, in case they are accused of giving false testimony. Either party in a case can accuse witnesses of perjury regarding their evidence, either fully or partially, if they believe such evidence was presented; however, the accusation must be made before the final ruling of the case. The magistrates will keep records of the perjury accusations under seal from both parties and produce them on the day the false witness trial occurs. If someone is convicted of false witness twice, they cannot be required to testify, and if convicted three times, they will not be allowed to testify. If they dare to testify after three convictions, anyone can inform the magistrates, who will bring the person before the court, and if convicted, they will face the death penalty. In any case where the evidence is found to be false yet still leads to a victory for the party who wins the case, and more than half of the witnesses are condemned, the verdict obtained through such means will be overturned. There will then be a review and a decision on whether the case was decided based on that false evidence; whichever way the decision goes will determine the outcome of the prior suit.
There are many noble things in human life, but to most of them attach evils which are fated to corrupt and spoil them. Is not justice noble, which has been the civiliser of humanity? How then can the advocate of justice be other than noble? And yet upon this profession which is presented to us under the fair name of art has come an evil reputation. In the first place, we are told that by ingenious pleas and the help of an advocate the law enables a man to win a particular cause, whether just or unjust; and that both the art, and the power of speech which is thereby imparted, are at the service of him who is willing to pay for them. Now in our state this so-called art, whether really an art or only an experience and practice destitute of any art, ought if possible never to come into existence, or if existing among us should listen to the request of the legislator and go away into another land, and not speak contrary to justice. If the offenders obey we say no more; but for those who disobey, the voice of the law is as follows: If any one thinks that he will pervert the power of justice in the minds of the judges, and unseasonably litigate or advocate, let any one who likes indict him for malpractices of law and dishonest advocacy, and let him be judged in the court of select judges; and if he be convicted, let the court determine whether he may be supposed to act from a love of money or from contentiousness. And if he is supposed to act from contentiousness, the court shall fix a time during which he shall not be allowed to institute or plead a cause; and if he is supposed to act as he does from love of money, in case he be a stranger, he shall leave the country, and never return under penalty of death; but if he be a citizen, he shall die, because he is a lover of money, in whatever manner gained; and equally, if he be judged to have acted more than once from contentiousness, he shall die.
There are many noble aspects of human life, but most of them come with problems that are destined to corrupt and spoil them. Isn’t justice noble, as it has been a force for civilization? How can someone who advocates for justice be anything but noble? Yet this profession, which is presented to us as an honorable art, has gained a bad reputation. First of all, we are told that through clever arguments and the help of a lawyer, the law allows a person to win a particular case, whether it’s right or wrong; and that both this art and the power of persuasive speech are available to anyone willing to pay for them. Now in our society, this so-called art, whether it’s truly an art or just an experience and practice lacking any true skill, should ideally never exist, or if it does exist among us, it should heed the request of the lawmakers and leave for another place, not speak against justice. If the offenders comply, we have nothing more to say; but for those who do not, the law states: If anyone thinks they can twist the power of justice in the minds of judges and engage in frivolous litigation or advocacy, anyone who wants can accuse them of legal misconduct and dishonest advocacy, and they should be tried in front of a panel of judges; and if they are found guilty, the court will decide whether they acted out of a love for money or a tendency to argue. If they are seen as acting out of a tendency to argue, the court will set a period during which they cannot start or plead any cases; and if they are thought to be acting out of a love for money, if they are a foreigner, they must leave the country and never return under threat of death; but if they are a citizen, they will die because they are greedy, no matter how they acquired their wealth; and similarly, if they are determined to have acted more than once out of a tendency to argue, they will also die.
BOOK XII.
If a herald or an ambassador carry a false message from our city to any other, or bring back a false message from the city to which he is sent, or be proved to have brought back, whether from friends or enemies, in his capacity of herald or ambassador, what they have never said, let him be indicted for having violated, contrary to the law, the commands and duties imposed upon him by Hermes and Zeus, and let there be a penalty fixed, which he shall suffer or pay if he be convicted.
If a messenger or ambassador delivers a false message from our city to another, or brings back incorrect information from the city he was sent to, or is found to have reported something that was never said, whether from allies or adversaries, in his role as messenger or ambassador, he should be charged with violating, against the law, the orders and responsibilities given to him by Hermes and Zeus, and there should be a penalty set that he will face or pay if found guilty.
Theft is a mean, and robbery a shameless thing; and none of the sons of Zeus delight in fraud and violence, or ever practised either. Wherefore let no one be deluded by poets or mythologers into a mistaken belief of such things, nor let him suppose, when he thieves or is guilty of violence, that he is doing nothing base, but only what the Gods themselves do. For such tales are untrue and improbable; and he who steals or robs contrary to the law, is never either a God or the son of a God; of this the legislator ought to be better informed than all the poets put together. Happy is he and may he be for ever happy, who is persuaded and listens to our words; but he who disobeys shall have to contend against the following law: If a man steal anything belonging to the public, whether that which he steals be much or little, he shall have the same punishment. For he who steals a little steals with the same wish as he who steals much, but with less power, and he who takes up a greater amount, not having deposited it, is wholly unjust. Wherefore the law is not disposed to inflict a less penalty on the one than on the other because his theft is less, but on the ground that the thief may possibly be in one case still curable, and may in another case be incurable. If any one convict in a court of law a stranger or a slave of a theft of public property, let the court determine what punishment he shall suffer, or what penalty he shall pay, bearing in mind that he is probably not incurable. But the citizen who has been brought up as our citizens will have been, if he be found guilty of robbing his country by fraud or violence, whether he be caught in the act or not, shall be punished with death; for he is incurable.
Theft is petty, and robbery is shameless; none of Zeus's children take pleasure in deceit and violence, nor do they engage in such actions. So, let's not be misled by poets or storytellers into thinking otherwise, nor should anyone believe that when they steal or commit violence, they are doing anything noble or similar to what the Gods do. These stories are false and unlikely; anyone who steals or robs against the law is not a God or the child of a God; the lawmakers should know this better than all the poets combined. Blessed is he who believes and listens to our words; but he who disobeys will have to face this law: If someone steals anything that belongs to the public, whether it's a lot or a little, they will receive the same punishment. A person who steals a little does so with the same intent as someone who steals a lot, but with less ability, and someone who takes more without returning it is entirely unjust. Therefore, the law does not impose a lighter penalty for one than the other simply because the theft is smaller, but because the thief may still be capable of change in one case, while in another, they may not be. If anyone else is found guilty in court of stealing public property, the court will decide what punishment or fine they should receive, keeping in mind that they are likely not beyond redemption. However, a citizen who has been raised among us, if found guilty of defrauding their country through fraud or violence—whether caught in the act or not—will be punished with death; for they are beyond redemption.
Now for expeditions of war much consideration and many laws are required; the great principle of all is that no one of either sex should be without a commander; nor should the mind of any one be accustomed to do anything, either in jest or earnest, of his own motion, but in war and in peace he should look to and follow his leader, even in the least things being under his guidance; for example, he should stand or move, or exercise, or wash, or take his meals, or get up in the night to keep guard and deliver messages when he is bidden; and in the hour of danger he should not pursue and not retreat except by order of his superior; and in a word, not teach the soul or accustom her to know or understand how to do anything apart from others. Of all soldiers the life should be always and in all things as far as possible in common and together; there neither is nor ever will be a higher, or better, or more scientific principle than this for the attainment of salvation and victory in war. And we ought in time of peace from youth upwards to practise this habit of commanding others, and of being commanded by others; anarchy should have no place in the life of man or of the beasts who are subject to man. I may add that all dances ought to be performed with a view to military excellence; and agility and ease should be cultivated for the same object, and also endurance of the want of meats and drinks, and of winter cold and summer heat, and of hard couches; and, above all, care should be taken not to destroy the peculiar qualities of the head and the feet by surrounding them with extraneous coverings, and so hindering their natural growth of hair and soles. For these are the extremities, and of all the parts of the body, whether they are preserved or not is of the greatest consequence; the one is the servant of the whole body, and the other the master, in whom all the ruling senses are by nature set. Let the young men imagine that he hears in what has preceded the praises of the military life; the law shall be as follows: He shall serve in war who is on the roll or appointed to some special service, and if any one is absent from cowardice, and without the leave of the generals, he shall be indicted before the military commanders for failure of service when the army comes home; and the soldiers shall be his judges; the heavy-armed, and the cavalry, and the other arms of the service shall form separate courts; and they shall bring the heavy-armed before the heavy-armed, and the horsemen before the horsemen, and the others in like manner before their peers; and he who is found guilty shall never be allowed to compete for any prize of valour, or indict another for not serving on an expedition, or be an accuser at all in any military matters. Moreover, the court shall further determine what punishment he shall suffer, or what penalty he shall pay. When the suits for failure of service are completed, the leaders of the several kinds of troops shall again hold an assembly, and they shall adjudge the prizes of valour; and he who likes searching for judgment in his own branch of the service, saying nothing about any former expedition, nor producing any proof or witnesses to confirm his statement, but speaking only of the present occasion. The crown of victory shall be an olive wreath which the victor shall offer up at the temple of any war-god whom he likes, adding an inscription for a testimony to last during life, that such an one has received the first, the second, or the third prize. If any one goes on an expedition, and returns home before the appointed time, when the generals have not withdrawn the army, he shall be indicted for desertion before the same persons who took cognizance of failure of service, and if he be found guilty, the same punishment shall be inflicted on him. Now every man who is engaged in any suit ought to be very careful of bringing false witness against any one, either intentionally or unintentionally, if he can help; for justice is truly said to be an honourable maiden, and falsehood is naturally repugnant to honour and justice. A witness ought to be very careful not to sin against justice, as for example in what relates to the throwing away of arms—he must distinguish the throwing them away when necessary, and not make that a reproach, or bring an action against some innocent person on that account. To make the distinction may be difficult; but still the law must attempt to define the different kinds in some way. Let me endeavour to explain my meaning by an ancient tale: If Patroclus had been brought to the tent still alive but without his arms (and this has happened to innumerable persons), the original arms, which the poet says were presented to Peleus by the Gods as a nuptial gift when he married Thetis, remaining in the hands of Hector, then the base spirits of that day might have reproached the son of Menoetius with having cast away his arms. Again, there is the case of those who have been thrown down precipices and lost their arms; and of those who at sea, and in stormy places, have been suddenly overwhelmed by floods of water; and there are numberless things of this kind which one might adduce by way of extenuation, and with the view of justifying a misfortune which is easily misrepresented. We must, therefore, endeavour to divide to the best of our power the greater and more serious evil from the lesser. And a distinction may be drawn in the use of terms of reproach. A man does not always deserve to be called the thrower away of his shield; he may be only the loser of his arms. For there is a great or rather absolute difference between him who is deprived of his arms by a sufficient force, and him who voluntarily lets his shield go. Let the law then be as follows: If a person having arms is overtaken by the enemy and does not turn round and defend himself, but lets them go voluntarily or throws them away, choosing a base life and a swift escape rather than a courageous and noble and blessed death—in such a case of the throwing away of arms let justice be done, but the judge need take no note of the case just now mentioned; for the bad men ought always to be punished, in the hope that he may be improved, but not the unfortunate, for there is no advantage in that. And what shall be the punishment suited to him who has thrown away his weapons of defence? Tradition says that Caeneus, the Thessalian, was changed by a God from a woman into a man; but the converse miracle cannot now be wrought, or no punishment would be more proper than that the man who throws away his shield should be changed into a woman. This however is impossible, and therefore let us make a law as nearly like this as we can—that he who loves his life too well shall be in no danger for the remainder of his days, but shall live for ever under the stigma of cowardice. And let the law be in the following terms: When a man is found guilty of disgracefully throwing away his arms in war, no general or military officer shall allow him to serve as a soldier, or give him any place at all in the ranks of soldiers; and the officer who gives the coward any place, shall suffer a penalty which the public examiner shall exact of him; and if he be of the highest class, he shall pay a thousand drachmae; or if he be of the second class, five minae; or if he be of the third, three minae; or if he be of the fourth class, one mina. And he who is found guilty of cowardice, shall not only be dismissed from manly dangers, which is a disgrace appropriate to his nature, but he shall pay a thousand drachmae, if he be of the highest class, and five minae if he be of the second class, and three if he be of the third class, and a mina, like the preceding, if he be of the fourth class.
Now, in matters of war, careful planning and many rules are essential. The main idea is that no one, regardless of gender, should be without a commander; no one should act on their own, whether in jest or seriousness. In both war and peace, everyone should look to and follow their leader in even the smallest tasks. For instance, they should stand, move, exercise, wash, eat, or get up at night to guard or deliver messages only when directed. In times of danger, they shouldn't chase or retreat unless ordered by their superiors; in short, no one should learn to act independently. All soldiers should strive to live and act collectively, as there’s no better principle for achieving success and safety in warfare. Even in peacetime, from a young age, people should practice both commanding others and being commanded; chaos should have no place in human life or in the lives of animals that humans control. Additionally, all dances should be focused on improving military skills, and flexibility and endurance should be developed for the same reason—enduring lack of food and water, as well as cold winters and hot summers, and sleeping on hard surfaces. Above all, care should be taken not to hinder the natural growth of hair and soles by overdressing the head and feet. These extremities are crucial; one serves the entire body, while the other governs it, housing all the dominant senses. Let young people consider the earlier remarks as praises for military life. The laws will state that anyone on the roster or assigned to a specific duty must serve in war. If someone is absent out of cowardice and without the generals' permission, they will face charges from military leaders for dereliction of duty when the army returns. Their fellow soldiers—heavy infantry, cavalry, and other branches—will serve as judges in separate courts according to their unit. Those found guilty will be barred from competing for any awards for bravery, from accusing others of not serving in missions, or making any accusations in military matters. Additionally, the court will decide their punishment or fine. Once the dereliction of duty cases are settled, troop leaders will reconvene to award prizes for valor. Anyone seeking judgment for their actions must avoid referencing previous missions or presenting evidence or witnesses, focusing only on the present situation. The victor's prize will be an olive wreath, awarded at the temple of any chosen war deity, along with an inscription signifying their accomplishment, whether it be first, second, or third place. If someone goes on an expedition and returns home before the appointed time, when the generals haven’t ordered a withdrawal, they will face charges for desertion from the same judges who handled the dereliction of duty cases, and if found guilty, they will suffer the same penalties. It is crucial for anyone involved in a case to be cautious about providing false testimony, whether intentionally or unintentionally, whenever possible, for justice is rightly described as an honorable entity, while falsehood contradicts honor and justice. Witnesses should be vigilant not to transgress justice, particularly regarding the abandonment of weapons; they must differentiate between necessary abandonment and wrongful action against someone innocent. Making this distinction can be challenging, but the law must strive to define the differences in some manner. Allow me to clarify with an ancient story: If Patroclus had been brought to the tent alive but without his arms (a fate that has befallen many), with the original arms given to Peleus by the gods during his wedding to Thetis still in Hector's possession, then the lesser minds of that day might have accused the son of Menoetius of abandoning his weapons. Similarly, there are those who have been tossed from cliffs and lost their arms, and those who have been overwhelmed by floods at sea during storms; countless situations like these exist that could explain misfortune, easily misrepresented. Therefore, we must strive to separate more serious wrongs from lesser ones. A distinction should also apply to derogatory terms. Someone doesn't always deserve to be labeled a coward for losing their shield; they might simply be someone who lost their arms. There’s a significant difference between someone stripped of their arms by force and someone who willingly lets go of their shield. Thus, let the law state: If a person with arms is confronted by the enemy and does not defend themselves but chooses to abandon them voluntarily, opting for a cowardly and quick escape over a noble death, then let justice take its course regarding the abandonment of arms—but judges need not focus on the previously mentioned dishonorable cases; bad individuals should indeed be punished with the hope for their reform, but not the unfortunate, as there is no benefit to that. What punishment should fit someone who discards their defensive weapons? It is said that Caeneus, from Thessaly, was transformed by a god from a woman into a man, yet the opposite cannot be done now; otherwise, the most fitting punishment would involve transforming a man who discards his shield into a woman. However, this is impossible. Hence, let’s establish a law that closely resembles this: Whoever values their life overly shall face no peril for the remainder of their days but shall carry the stigma of cowardice forever. Let the law state: When someone is found guilty of disgracefully discarding their arms in battle, no general or military officer shall permit them to serve as a soldier or take any role in the ranks. Any officer who allows a coward any position will face penalties determined by the public examiner. If they are of the highest rank, the fine will be a thousand drachmas; for the second rank, five minae; for the third, three minae; and for the fourth class, one mina. Furthermore, anyone found guilty of cowardice will not only be dismissed from dangerous situations suitable to their nature, but will also face a fine of a thousand drachmas if of the highest class, five minae for the second, three for the third, and one mina for the fourth class.
What regulations will be proper about examiners, seeing that some of our magistrates are elected by lot, and for a year, and some for a longer time and from selected persons? Of such magistrates, who will be a sufficient censor or examiner, if any of them, weighed down by the pressure of office or his own inability to support the dignity of his office, be guilty of any crooked practice? It is by no means easy to find a magistrate who excels other magistrates in virtue, but still we must endeavour to discover some censor or examiner who is more than man. For the truth is, that there are many elements of dissolution in a state, as there are also in a ship, or in an animal; they all have their cords, and girders, and sinews—one nature diffused in many places, and called by many names; and the office of examiner is a most important element in the preservation and dissolution of states. For if the examiners are better than the magistrates, and their duty is fulfilled justly and without blame, then the whole state and country flourishes and is happy; but if the examination of the magistrates is carried on in a wrong way, then, by the relaxation of that justice which is the uniting principle of all constitutions, every power in the state is rent asunder from every other; they no longer incline in the same direction, but fill the city with faction, and make many cities out of one, and soon bring all to destruction. Wherefore the examiners ought to be admirable in every sort of virtue. Let us invent a mode of creating them, which shall be as follows: Every year, after the summer solstice, the whole city shall meet in the common precincts of Helios and Apollo, and shall present to the God three men out of their own number in the manner following: Each citizen shall select, not himself, but some other citizen whom he deems in every way the best, and who is not less than fifty years of age. And out of the selected persons who have the greatest number of votes, they shall make a further selection until they reduce them to one-half, if they are an even number; but if they are not an even number, they shall subtract the one who has the smallest number of votes, and make them an even number, and then leave the half which have the greater number of votes. And if two persons have an equal number of votes, and thus increase the number beyond one-half, they shall withdraw the younger of the two and do away the excess; and then including all the rest they shall again vote, until there are left three having an unequal number of votes. But if all the three, or two out of the three, have equal votes, let them commit the election to good fate and fortune, and separate off by lot the first, and the second, and the third; these they shall crown with an olive wreath and give them the prize of excellence, at the same time proclaiming to all the world that the city of the Magnetes, by the providence of the Gods, is again preserved, and presents to the Sun and to Apollo her three best men as first-fruits, to be a common offering to them, according to the ancient law, as long as their lives answer to the judgment formed of them. And these shall appoint in their first year twelve examiners, to continue until each has completed seventy-five years, to whom three shall afterwards be added yearly; and let these divide all the magistracies into twelve parts, and prove the holders of them by every sort of test to which a freeman may be subjected; and let them live while they hold office in the precinct of Helios and Apollo, in which they were chosen, and let each one form a judgment of some things individually, and of others in company with his colleagues; and let him place a writing in the agora about each magistracy, and what the magistrate ought to suffer or pay, according to the decision of the examiners. And if a magistrate does not admit that he has been justly judged, let him bring the examiners before the select judges, and if he be acquitted by their decision, let him, if he will, accuse the examiners themselves; if, however, he be convicted, and have been condemned to death by the examiners, let him die (and of course he can only die once): but any other penalties which admit of being doubled let him suffer twice over.
What rules should we have about examiners, considering that some of our magistrates are chosen randomly for a year, while others are elected for a longer term from a select group? Among these magistrates, who will be a competent censor or examiner if any of them might be overwhelmed by the demands of their position or their own inability to uphold the dignity of their role? It’s not easy to find a magistrate who stands out in virtue, yet we must aim to find a censor or examiner who is exceptional. The truth is, there are many factors that can lead to the downfall of a state, just as there are in a ship or a living being; they all have their connections and supports—one essence spread across numerous aspects, referred to by various terms; and the role of examiner is crucial in maintaining or undermining states. If the examiners are better than the magistrates and carry out their duties fairly and without fault, then the entire state and community prosper and are content; but if the examination of the magistrates is done improperly, then the weakening of that justice, which binds all systems together, causes every power in the state to pull away from one another; they no longer align towards the same goal, filling the city with divisions and fragmenting it into many cities, ultimately leading to ruin. Therefore, examiners should embody every kind of virtue. Let’s come up with a process for selecting them as follows: Every year, after the summer solstice, the entire city should gather in the common areas dedicated to Helios and Apollo and nominate three men from their ranks as follows: Each citizen should choose not themselves but another citizen whom they consider the best in every aspect and who is at least fifty years old. From those nominated who receive the highest votes, a further selection should occur until they are halved if they start as an even number; if they start as an odd number, they should eliminate the one with the fewest votes to create an even number. Then they will keep the half with the greater votes. If two individuals tie in votes, leading to more than half remaining, the younger of the two should be removed to eliminate the excess; then, including the rest, there should be another vote until three remain with different vote totals. If all three, or two of them, tie, the choice should be left to chance, drawing lots for the first, second, and third positions; these will be honored with an olive wreath and celebrated as the best of the city, proclaiming to everyone that the city of the Magnetes, by the gods’ grace, has been saved once more, offering to the Sun and Apollo its three finest citizens as a common tribute, according to ancient tradition, as long as they live up to the expectations of their selection. These individuals will appoint twelve examiners in their first year, who will serve until each reaches seventy-five years old, with three more added each year; they should divide all the magistracies into twelve segments and assess the holders through various evaluations to which a free person may be subjected; they should live while in office within the precincts of Helios and Apollo, where they were chosen, and each one should form opinions on certain matters individually and on others collaboratively with their colleagues; they should publicly document their observations regarding each magistracy, noting what the magistrate should endure or pay according to the examiners' findings. If a magistrate contests their judgment, they can bring the examiners before selected judges, and if acquitted, they may accuse the examiners themselves; however, if convicted and sentenced to death by the examiners, let them die (after all, one can only die once): for any other penalties that can be doubled, they should endure double the punishment.
And now let us pass under review the examiners themselves; what will their examination be, and how conducted? During the life of these men, whom the whole state counts worthy of the rewards of virtue, they shall have the first seat at all public assemblies, and at all Hellenic sacrifices and sacred missions, and other public and holy ceremonies in which they share. The chiefs of each sacred mission shall be selected from them, and they only of all the citizens shall be adorned with a crown of laurel; they shall all be priests of Apollo and Helios; and one of them, who is judged first of the priests created in that year, shall be high priest; and they shall write up his name in each year to be a measure of time as long as the city lasts; and after their death they shall be laid out and carried to the grave and entombed in a manner different from the other citizens. They shall be decked in a robe all of white, and there shall be no crying or lamentation over them; but a chorus of fifteen maidens, and another of boys, shall stand around the bier on either side, hymning the praises of the departed priests in alternate responses, declaring their blessedness in song all day long; and at dawn a hundred of the youths who practise gymnastic exercises, and whom the relations of the departed shall choose, shall carry the bier to the sepulchre, the young men marching first, dressed in the garb of warriors—the cavalry with their horses, the heavy-armed with their arms, and the others in like manner. And boys near the bier and in front of it shall sing their national hymn, and maidens shall follow behind, and with them the women who have passed the age of child-bearing; next, although they are interdicted from other burials, let priests and priestesses follow, unless the Pythian oracle forbid them; for this burial is free from pollution. The place of burial shall be an oblong vaulted chamber underground, constructed of tufa, which will last for ever, having stone couches placed side by side. And here they will lay the blessed person, and cover the sepulchre with a circular mound of earth and plant a grove of trees around on every side but one; and on that side the sepulchre shall be allowed to extend for ever, and a new mound will not be required. Every year they shall have contests in music and gymnastics, and in horsemanship, in honour of the dead. These are the honours which shall be given to those who at the examination are found blameless; but if any of them, trusting to the scrutiny being over, should, after the judgment has been given, manifest the wickedness of human nature, let the law ordain that he who pleases shall indict him, and let the cause be tried in the following manner. In the first place, the court shall be composed of the guardians of the law, and to them the surviving examiners shall be added, as well as the court of select judges; and let the pursuer lay his indictment in this form—he shall say that so-and-so is unworthy of the prize of virtue and of his office; and if the defendant be convicted let him be deprived of his office, and of the burial, and of the other honours given him. But if the prosecutor do not obtain the fifth part of the votes, let him, if he be of the first-class, pay twelve minae, and eight if he be of the second class, and six if he be of the third class, and two minae if he be of the fourth class.
And now let's take a look at the examiners themselves; what will their examination entail, and how will it be conducted? Throughout the lives of these men, whom the entire state sees as deserving of the rewards of virtue, they will have the best seats at all public gatherings, Hellenic sacrifices, sacred missions, and other public and holy ceremonies in which they participate. The leaders of each sacred mission will be chosen from them, and they alone among all citizens will be honored with a laurel crown; they will all serve as priests of Apollo and Helios, and one of them, deemed the top priest of that year, will be the high priest; his name will be recorded each year to mark the passage of time as long as the city stands. After their death, they will be laid out and taken to their graves and buried differently from other citizens. They will be dressed in a pure white robe, and there will be no weeping or mourning for them; instead, a chorus of fifteen maidens and another of boys will stand around the bier on either side, singing praises of the deceased priests in alternating responses, celebrating their blessedness in song all day long. At dawn, a hundred youths who practice gymnastics, chosen by the families of the deceased, will carry the bier to the tomb, with the young men leading the way, dressed like warriors—cavalry with their horses, heavily armed soldiers with their gear, and others similarly attired. Boys will sing the national hymn near the bier and in front of it, while maidens will follow behind, along with women past childbearing age; moreover, even though they are usually barred from other burials, priests and priestesses will be allowed to follow unless the Pythian oracle forbids it; this burial is free from impurity. The burial site will be a long, vaulted underground chamber made of tufa, designed to last forever, with stone couches placed side by side. Here, they will lay the blessed individual, covering the tomb with a circular mound of earth and planting a grove of trees all around except for one side; on that side, the tomb will be allowed to extend endlessly, not requiring a new mound. Every year there will be competitions in music, gymnastics, and horseback riding in honor of the deceased. These are the honors granted to those found virtuous in the examination; however, if any of them, feeling secure after the evaluation, should later reveal the flaws of human nature, let the law state that anyone may bring charges against him, and the case will be tried in this way. First, the court will consist of the guardians of the law, with the remaining examiners added, along with a select group of judges; the accuser will frame his indictment like this—he will claim that someone is unworthy of the reward for virtue and his position; if the defendant is found guilty, he will lose his office, his burial rights, and the other honors given to him. But if the accuser fails to gain at least a fifth of the votes, he will have to pay a penalty—twelve minae if he is of the first class, eight for the second class, six for the third class, and two minae for the fourth class.
The so-called decision of Rhadamanthus is worthy of all admiration. He knew that the men of his own time believed and had no doubt that there were Gods, which was a reasonable belief in those days, because most men were the sons of Gods, and according to tradition he was one himself. He appears to have thought that he ought to commit judgment to no man, but to the Gods only, and in this way suits were simply and speedily decided by him. For he made the two parties take an oath respecting the points in dispute, and so got rid of the matter speedily and safely. But now that a certain portion of mankind do not believe at all in the existence of the Gods, and others imagine that they have no care of us, and the opinion of most men, and of the worst men, is that in return for a small sacrifice and a few flattering words they will be their accomplices in purloining large sums and save them from many terrible punishments, the way of Rhadamanthus is no longer suited to the needs of justice; for as the opinions of men about the Gods are changed, the laws should also be changed—in the granting of suits a rational legislation ought to do away with the oaths of the parties on either side—he who obtains leave to bring an action should write down the charges, but should not add an oath; and the defendant in like manner should give his denial to the magistrates in writing, and not swear; for it is a dreadful thing to know, when many lawsuits are going on in a state, that almost half the people who meet one another quite unconcernedly at the public meals and in other companies and relations of private life are perjured. Let the law, then, be as follows: A judge who is about to give judgment shall take an oath, and he who is choosing magistrates for the state shall either vote on oath or with a voting tablet which he brings from a temple; so too the judge of dances and of all music, and the superintendents and umpires of gymnastic and equestrian contests, and any matters in which, as far as men can judge, there is nothing to be gained by a false oath; but all cases in which a denial confirmed by an oath clearly results in a great advantage to the taker of the oath, shall be decided without the oath of the parties to the suit, and the presiding judges shall not permit either of them to use an oath for the sake of persuading, nor to call down curses on himself and his race, nor to use unseemly supplications or womanish laments. But they shall ever be teaching and learning what is just in auspicious words; and he who does otherwise shall be supposed to speak beside the point, and the judges shall again bring him back to the question at issue. On the other hand, strangers in their dealings with strangers shall as at present have power to give and receive oaths, for they will not often grow old in the city or leave a fry of young ones like themselves to be the sons and heirs of the land.
The decision made by Rhadamanthus deserves a lot of respect. He understood that the people of his time believed in the Gods without question, which was reasonable back then since most men were seen as sons of the Gods, and according to tradition, he was one of them. He seemed to think that judgment shouldn’t be left to any human, but only to the Gods, which allowed him to resolve disputes quickly and easily. He made both parties swear oaths on the matters in question, speeding up the process and ensuring fairness. However, now that some people don't believe in the existence of the Gods, and others think they don’t care about us, the prevalent opinion among most, especially the dishonest, is that with a small sacrifice and a few flattering words, they can gain help in stealing large amounts and avoid severe punishments. Therefore, Rhadamanthus’s way is no longer suitable for justice; as people's beliefs about the Gods have changed, the laws should change too. Legislation should eliminate the need for oaths in trials—someone who files a claim should write down their accusations without swearing an oath, and similarly, the defendant should respond in writing without swearing. It is disturbing to think that during numerous legal disputes, many people who casually interact at public events and in private life are actually perjurers. Let the law be clear: a judge giving a ruling must take an oath, and those choosing magistrates should vote either with an oath or with a tablet from a temple; this applies too to judges of dances, music, and the officials overseeing athletic and horse contests, in matters where there’s no benefit to lying under oath. But in cases where swearing a denial obviously benefits the one taking the oath, these disputes should be resolved without the parties needing to swear, and judges should not allow them to use oaths to persuade, curse themselves or their families, or resort to inappropriate pleas or emotional outbursts. Instead, they should focus on teaching and learning what is just in positive manners; anyone who deviates from this should be seen as off-topic, and judges will steer them back to the main issue. Meanwhile, foreigners dealing with one another should maintain the ability to give and receive oaths as they currently do, since they may not spend much time in the city or leave descendants to inherit the land.
As to the initiation of private suits, let the manner of deciding causes between all citizens be the same as in cases in which any freeman is disobedient to the state in minor matters, of which the penalty is not stripes, imprisonment, or death. But as regards attendance at choruses or processions or other shows, and as regards public services, whether the celebration of sacrifice in peace, or the payment of contributions in war—in all these cases, first comes the necessity of providing a remedy for the loss; and by those who will not obey, there shall be security given to the officers whom the city and the law empower to exact the sum due; and if they forfeit their security, let the goods which they have pledged be sold and the money given to the city; but if they ought to pay a larger sum, the several magistrates shall impose upon the disobedient a suitable penalty, and bring them before the court, until they are willing to do what they are ordered.
Regarding the initiation of private lawsuits, the way cases are decided among all citizens should be the same as for situations where any free person disobeys the state on minor matters, which do not involve punishment like flogging, imprisonment, or death. However, when it comes to attending choruses, processions, or other events, as well as public duties—whether it’s celebrating sacrifices during peacetime or contributing during wartime—the first step is to ensure compensation for any losses. Those who refuse to comply must provide security to the officials appointed by the city and the law to collect what is owed. If they fail to provide this security, their pledged assets should be sold and the proceeds given to the city. If they owe a larger amount, the relevant magistrates will impose an appropriate penalty on those who disobey and bring them before the court until they comply with the orders.
Now a state which makes money from the cultivation of the soil only, and has no foreign trade, must consider what it will do about the emigration of its own people to other countries, and the reception of strangers from elsewhere. About these matters the legislator has to consider, and he will begin by trying to persuade men as far as he can. The intercourse of cities with one another is apt to create a confusion of manners; strangers are always suggesting novelties to strangers. When states are well governed by good laws the mixture causes the greatest possible injury; but seeing that most cities are the reverse of well-ordered, the confusion which arises in them from the reception of strangers, and from the citizens themselves rushing off into other cities, when any one either young or old desires to travel anywhere abroad at whatever time, is of no consequence. On the other hand, the refusal of states to receive others, and for their own citizens never to go to other places, is an utter impossibility, and to the rest of the world is likely to appear ruthless and uncivilised; it is a practice adopted by people who use harsh words, such as xenelasia or banishment of strangers, and who have harsh and morose ways, as men think. And to be thought or not to be thought well of by the rest of the world is no light matter; for the many are not so far wrong in their judgment of who are bad and who are good, as they are removed from the nature of virtue in themselves. Even bad men have a divine instinct which guesses rightly, and very many who are utterly depraved form correct notions and judgments of the differences between the good and bad. And the generality of cities are quite right in exhorting us to value a good reputation in the world, for there is no truth greater and more important than this—that he who is really good (I am speaking of the men who would be perfect) seeks for reputation with, but not without, the reality of goodness. And our Cretan colony ought also to acquire the fairest and noblest reputation for virtue from other men; and there is every reason to expect that, if the reality answers to the idea, she will be one of the few well-ordered cities which the sun and the other Gods behold. Wherefore, in the matter of journeys to other countries and the reception of strangers, we enact as follows: In the first place, let no one be allowed to go anywhere at all into a foreign country who is less than forty years of age; and no one shall go in a private capacity, but only in some public one, as a herald, or on an embassy, or on a sacred mission. Going abroad on an expedition or in war is not to be included among travels of the class authorised by the state. To Apollo at Delphi and to Zeus at Olympia and to Nemea and to the Isthmus, citizens should be sent to take part in the sacrifices and games there dedicated to the Gods; and they should send as many as possible, and the best and fairest that can be found, and they will make the city renowned at holy meetings in time of peace, procuring a glory which shall be the converse of that which is gained in war; and when they come home they shall teach the young that the institutions of other states are inferior to their own. And they shall send spectators of another sort, if they have the consent of the guardians, being such citizens as desire to look a little more at leisure at the doings of other men; and these no law shall hinder. For a city which has no experience of good and bad men or intercourse with them, can never be thoroughly and perfectly civilised, nor, again, can the citizens of a city properly observe the laws by habit only, and without an intelligent understanding of them. And there always are in the world a few inspired men whose acquaintance is beyond price, and who spring up quite as much in ill-ordered as in well-ordered cities. These are they whom the citizens of a well-ordered city should be ever seeking out, going forth over sea and over land to find him who is incorruptible—that he may establish more firmly institutions in his own state which are good already, and amend what is deficient; for without this examination and enquiry a city will never continue perfect any more than if the examination is ill-conducted.
Now, a state that relies solely on agriculture for revenue and has no foreign trade must think about how to handle its people's emigration to other countries and the arrival of foreigners. This is something lawmakers must address, starting by trying to persuade people as much as possible. Interactions between cities often lead to a blend of customs; newcomers always introduce new ideas. When states are well governed by good laws, this blending can cause significant harm; however, since most cities are poorly organized, the resulting confusion from welcoming outsiders and citizens traveling to other places is usually inconsequential. On the other hand, a state refusing to welcome outsiders and forbidding its citizens from going elsewhere would seem brutal and uncivilized to the rest of the world. This practice is often associated with harsh attitudes, such as xenelasia (the banishment of foreigners) and a general air of gloom. How others perceive a state is quite important; the public is often not entirely wrong in categorizing who is good and who is bad, even if they themselves are distant from the true essence of virtue. Even immoral people have a certain instinct that helps them recognize good, and many who are deeply corrupt have accurate views on the distinctions between good and bad. Most cities are correct in urging the importance of maintaining a good reputation globally because there’s no greater truth than this: those who are truly good (specifically the ones striving for perfection) pursue a reputation that aligns with the reality of their goodness. Our Cretan colony should also aim to gain the highest regard for virtue from others, and we have every reason to believe that if our worth matches our ideals, it will become one of the few well-ordered cities the sun and other gods admire. Therefore, regarding travel to other countries and welcoming strangers, we establish the following rules: Firstly, no one under the age of forty is permitted to travel abroad, and no one should go for personal reasons but only in an official capacity, such as a herald, diplomat, or on a sacred mission. War missions do not count as approved travels. Citizens should be sent to Apollo at Delphi, Zeus at Olympia, Nemea, and the Isthmus to participate in sacrifices and games held in honor of the gods; they should send as many as possible, selecting the best and most admirable, as this will enhance the city's reputation at sacred gatherings during times of peace, garnering a glory that stands in contrast to that earned in war. Upon their return, they shall teach the youth that the institutions of other states are inferior to their own. Additionally, if they have the guardians' approval, they may send a different type of spectator, those citizens who want the chance to observe the activities of other people more leisurely; no law should restrict this. A city with no experience of good and bad people or interactions with them can never be fully civilized, nor can citizens learn the laws merely through habit without a deeper understanding of them. There are always a few inspired individuals in the world whose company is invaluable, emerging in both chaotic and well-ordered cities. Citizens of a well-ordered city should continuously seek such individuals, traveling over land and sea to find those incorruptible souls to strengthen their already good institutions and address deficiencies; otherwise, a city will never remain perfect, much like the outcomes if the examination of its practices is poorly conducted.
CLEINIAS: How can we have an examination and also a good one?
CLEINIAS: How can we have a test that’s also a good one?
ATHENIAN: In this way: In the first place, our spectator shall be of not less than fifty years of age; he must be a man of reputation, especially in war, if he is to exhibit to other cities a model of the guardians of the law, but when he is more than sixty years of age he shall no longer continue in his office of spectator. And when he has carried on his inspection during as many out of the ten years of his office as he pleases, on his return home let him go to the assembly of those who review the laws. This shall be a mixed body of young and old men, who shall be required to meet daily between the hour of dawn and the rising of the sun. They shall consist, in the first place, of the priests who have obtained the rewards of virtue; and, in the second place, of guardians of the law, the ten eldest being chosen; the general superintendent of education shall also be a member, as well as the last appointed as those who have been released from the office; and each of them shall take with him as his companion a young man, whomsoever he chooses, between the ages of thirty and forty. These shall be always holding conversation and discourse about the laws of their own city or about any specially good ones which they may hear to be existing elsewhere; also about kinds of knowledge which may appear to be of use and will throw light upon the examination, or of which the want will make the subject of laws dark and uncertain to them. Any knowledge of this sort which the elders approve, the younger men shall learn with all diligence; and if any one of those who have been invited appear to be unworthy, the whole assembly shall blame him who invited him. The rest of the city shall watch over those among the young men who distinguish themselves, having an eye upon them, and especially honouring them if they succeed, but dishonouring them above the rest if they turn out to be inferior. This is the assembly to which he who has visited the institutions of other men, on his return home shall straightway go, and if he have discovered any one who has anything to say about the enactment of laws or education or nurture, or if he have himself made any observations, let him communicate his discoveries to the whole assembly. And if he be seen to have come home neither better nor worse, let him be praised at any rate for his enthusiasm; and if he be much better, let him be praised so much the more; and not only while he lives but after his death let the assembly honour him with fitting honours. But if on his return home he appear to have been corrupted, pretending to be wise when he is not, let him hold no communication with any one, whether young or old; and if he will hearken to the rulers, then he shall be permitted to live as a private individual; but if he will not, let him die, if he be convicted in a court of law of interfering about education and the laws. And if he deserve to be indicted, and none of the magistrates indict him, let that be counted as a disgrace to them when the rewards of virtue are decided.
ATHENIAN: Here's how it works: First, our audience member should be at least fifty years old; he needs to be a man of good reputation, especially in military matters, if he’s to present other cities with a model for the guardians of the law. However, once he reaches the age of sixty, he will no longer continue in this role. After serving in his position for as many years as he likes out of his ten-year term, he should return home and attend the assembly that reviews the laws. This assembly will be a mixed group of young and old men, who will need to meet daily from dawn until sunrise. It will include, first, priests who have earned rewards for their virtues; second, the guardians of the law, with the ten oldest being chosen; the general overseer of education will also be part of it, along with the latest individuals who have just been released from office; each of them will bring a young man of their choice, aged between thirty and forty. They will constantly discuss and debate the laws of their city or any particularly good laws they hear about from elsewhere, as well as types of knowledge that could be useful and relevant to their studies, or knowledge that, if lacking, could obscure the understanding of laws. Any knowledge approved by the elders will be diligently learned by the younger men; and if anyone invited proves unworthy, the entire assembly will blame the person who invited him. The rest of the city will keep an eye on the outstanding young men, especially honoring those who succeed, but will also dishonor those who prove themselves inferior. This is the assembly that any man who has visited the institutions of others should immediately join upon returning home, and if he has found someone with insights on the creation of laws or education, or if he has made his own observations, he should share his findings with the whole assembly. If he returns home showing no improvement, he’ll still be praised for his enthusiasm; but if he shows significant improvement, he’ll be praised even more. The assembly should honor him appropriately, not only while he is alive but also after his death. If, however, he returns seeming corrupted, pretending to be wise when he is not, he should not communicate with anyone, young or old. If he listens to the rulers, he will be allowed to live as an ordinary citizen; but if he refuses, he should face death if convicted in court for interfering with education and laws. And if he deserves to be charged but none of the magistrates do so, that will be considered a disgrace to them when rewards for virtue are distributed.
Let such be the character of the person who goes abroad, and let him go abroad under these conditions. In the next place, the stranger who comes from abroad should be received in a friendly spirit. Now there are four kinds of strangers, of whom we must make some mention—the first is he who comes and stays throughout the summer; this class are like birds of passage, taking wing in pursuit of commerce, and flying over the sea to other cities, while the season lasts; he shall be received in market-places and harbours and public buildings, near the city but outside, by those magistrates who are appointed to superintend these matters; and they shall take care that a stranger, whoever he be, duly receives justice; but he shall not be allowed to make any innovation. They shall hold the intercourse with him which is necessary, and this shall be as little as possible. The second kind is just a spectator who comes to see with his eyes and hear with his ears the festivals of the Muses; such ought to have entertainment provided them at the temples by hospitable persons, and the priests and ministers of the temples should see and attend to them. But they should not remain more than a reasonable time; let them see and hear that for the sake of which they came, and then go away, neither having suffered nor done any harm. The priests shall be their judges, if any of them receive or do any wrong up to the sum of fifty drachmae, but if any greater charge be brought, in such cases the suit shall come before the wardens of the agora. The third kind of stranger is he who comes on some public business from another land, and is to be received with public honours. He is to be received only by the generals and commanders of horse and foot, and the host by whom he is entertained, in conjunction with the Prytanes, shall have the sole charge of what concerns him. There is a fourth class of persons answering to our spectators, who come from another land to look at ours. In the first place, such visits will be rare, and the visitor should be at least fifty years of age; he may possibly be wanting to see something that is rich and rare in other states, or himself to show something in like manner to another city. Let such an one, then, go unbidden to the doors of the wise and rich, being one of them himself: let him go, for example, to the house of the superintendent of education, confident that he is a fitting guest of such a host, or let him go to the house of some of those who have gained the prize of virtue and hold discourse with them, both learning from them, and also teaching them; and when he has seen and heard all, he shall depart, as a friend taking leave of friends, and be honoured by them with gifts and suitable tributes of respect. These are the customs, according to which our city should receive all strangers of either sex who come from other countries, and should send forth her own citizens, showing respect to Zeus, the God of hospitality, not forbidding strangers at meals and sacrifices, as is the manner which prevails among the children of the Nile, nor driving them away by savage proclamations.
Let this be the character of the person who travels abroad, and let him do so under these conditions. Next, the stranger who arrives from another country should be welcomed with kindness. There are four kinds of strangers to mention—first, there’s the one who comes and stays for the summer; this group is like migratory birds, taking flight for trade and traveling over the sea to other cities during the season. They should be welcomed in marketplaces, harbors, and public buildings just outside the city, by the officials responsible for overseeing these matters. They must ensure that any stranger receives fair treatment, but these strangers should not be permitted to introduce any changes. Interaction with them should be necessary but kept to a minimum. The second type is a visitor who comes just to observe and experience the festivals of the Muses; they should be provided hospitality at the temples by welcoming individuals, and the priests and temple ministers should attend to them. However, they should not stay longer than a reasonable period; they should see and hear what they came for and then depart, having neither harmed nor been harmed. The priests will judge any disputes or wrongs up to fifty drachmas, but for more serious issues, the matter will go to the overseers of the marketplace. The third type is the person who arrives on official business from another land and should be received with public honors. This individual should only be met by the generals and commanders, along with the host who entertains them, who will be solely responsible for everything related to their stay. The fourth group consists of those similar to our spectators, who come from abroad to see our city. Such visits are likely to be rare, and the visitor should be at least fifty years old; they may be wanting to witness something unique and valuable in other states or to showcase something similar in another city. Such a person should feel free to visit the homes of the wise and wealthy, as they would be considered fitting guests. For example, they might go to the residence of the education superintendent, confident in their status as a suitable guest, or visit the home of individuals who have earned virtue and engage in conversation with them, both learning from them and imparting knowledge. After seeing and hearing everything, they should leave as a friend saying goodbye to friends, honored with gifts and due tributes of respect. These are the customs by which our city should welcome all strangers, regardless of gender, from other lands, and should also send out her citizens, showing respect to Zeus, the God of hospitality, allowing strangers to join in meals and sacrifices rather than following the harsh practices seen among the children of the Nile or sending them away with cruel proclamations.
When a man becomes surety, let him give the security in a distinct form, acknowledging the whole transaction in a written document, and in the presence of not less than three witnesses if the sum be under a thousand drachmae, and of not less than five witnesses if the sum be above a thousand drachmae. The agent of a dishonest or untrustworthy seller shall himself be responsible; both the agent and the principal shall be equally liable. If a person wishes to find anything in the house of another, he shall enter naked, or wearing only a short tunic and without a girdle, having first taken an oath by the customary Gods that he expects to find it there; he shall then make his search, and the other shall throw open his house and allow him to search things both sealed and unsealed. And if a person will not allow the searcher to make his search, he who is prevented shall go to law with him, estimating the value of the goods after which he is searching, and if the other be convicted he shall pay twice the value of the article. If the master be absent from home, the dwellers in the house shall let him search the unsealed property, and on the sealed property the searcher shall set another seal, and shall appoint any one whom he likes to guard them during five days; and if the master of the house be absent during a longer time, he shall take with him the wardens of the city, and so make his search, opening the sealed property as well as the unsealed, and then, together with the members of the family and the wardens of the city, he shall seal them up again as they were before. There shall be a limit of time in the case of disputed things, and he who has had possession of them during a certain time shall no longer be liable to be disturbed. As to houses and lands there can be no dispute in this state of ours; but if a man has any other possessions which he has used and openly shown in the city and in the agora and in the temples, and no one has put in a claim to them, and some one says that he was looking for them during this time, and the possessor is proved to have made no concealment, if they have continued for a year, the one having the goods and the other looking for them, the claim of the seeker shall not be allowed after the expiration of the year; or if he does not use or show the lost property in the market or in the city, but only in the country, and no one offers himself as the owner during five years, at the expiration of the five years the claim shall be barred for ever after; or if he uses them in the city but within the house, then the appointed time of claiming the goods shall be three years, or ten years if he has them in the country in private. And if he has them in another land, there shall be no limit of time or prescription, but whenever the owner finds them he may claim them.
When a person becomes a guarantor, they should provide the guarantee in a clear form, confirming the entire transaction in a written document, and in front of at least three witnesses if the amount is under a thousand drachmae, and at least five witnesses if the amount is over a thousand drachmae. The representative of a dishonest or untrustworthy seller will also be held accountable; both the agent and the principal will be equally responsible. If someone wants to search for something in someone else's house, they must enter without clothes, or just in a short tunic with no belt, and first take an oath by the customary gods that they believe it is there; they can then conduct their search, and the other person must open their house and allow them to look through both sealed and unsealed items. If someone refuses to let the searcher look, the person prevented from searching can take legal action against them, estimating the value of the item they are searching for, and if the other is found guilty, they will have to pay double the item's value. If the owner is not home, the inhabitants of the house must let the searcher examine the unsealed items, and for the sealed items, the searcher shall place another seal on them and appoint someone of their choice to guard them for five days; if the owner is absent for longer, they shall bring city officials with them to search, opening both the sealed and unsealed items, and then, along with the family members and city officials, re-seal them as they were before. There will be a time limit for disputed items, and anyone who has possessed them for a certain period will no longer be subject to disturbance. Regarding homes and land, disputes cannot occur in our state; but if someone has possessions they have used and displayed openly in the city, in the agora, and in temples, and no one has claimed them, if someone claims they were searching for them during that time, and the possessor has not hidden them, if they have been in possession for a year with the other person searching, the claim of the seeker will not be permitted after the year is up; or if the lost property has been used or shown only in the countryside, and no one claims ownership within five years, after five years the claim will be permanently barred; or if they are used in the city but only inside the home, the time to claim the items will be three years, or ten years if they are kept in the countryside privately. If the items are in a foreign land, there will be no time limit or prescription, and the owner can claim them whenever they find them.
If any one prevents another by force from being present at a trial, whether a principal party or his witnesses; if the person prevented be a slave, whether his own or belonging to another, the suit shall be incomplete and invalid; but if he who is prevented be a freeman, besides the suit being incomplete, the other who has prevented him shall be imprisoned for a year, and shall be prosecuted for kidnapping by any one who pleases. And if any one hinders by force a rival competitor in gymnastic or music, or any other sort of contest, from being present at the contest, let him who has a mind inform the presiding judges, and they shall liberate him who is desirous of competing; and if they are not able, and he who hinders the other from competing wins the prize, then they shall give the prize of victory to him who is prevented, and inscribe him as the conqueror in any temples which he pleases; and he who hinders the other shall not be permitted to make any offering or inscription having reference to that contest, and in any case he shall be liable for damages, whether he be defeated or whether he conquer.
If anyone forcibly prevents another from attending a trial, whether they are a main party or a witness; if the person being prevented is a slave, whether owned by themselves or someone else, the case will be incomplete and invalid. However, if the person prevented is a free person, in addition to the case being incomplete, the one who obstructed them will be imprisoned for a year and can be prosecuted for kidnapping by anyone who chooses to do so. If someone forcibly hinders a rival competitor in athletics, music, or any other contest from participating, anyone who wishes can inform the judges in charge, and they must free the person who wants to compete. If they cannot do so, and the one who blocked the other from competing wins the prize, then the prize will be awarded to the person who was prevented from competing, and they will be recognized as the winner in any temples they choose. The person who obstructed them will not be allowed to make any offerings or inscriptions related to that contest, and in any case, they will be liable for damages, whether they win or lose.
If any one knowingly receives anything which has been stolen, he shall undergo the same punishment as the thief, and if a man receives an exile he shall be punished with death. Every man should regard the friend and enemy of the state as his own friend and enemy; and if any one makes peace or war with another on his own account, and without the authority of the state, he, like the receiver of the exile, shall undergo the penalty of death. And if any fraction of the city declare war or peace against any, the generals shall indict the authors of this proceeding, and if they are convicted death shall be the penalty. Those who serve their country ought to serve without receiving gifts, and there ought to be no excusing or approving the saying, 'Men should receive gifts as the reward of good, but not of evil deeds'; for to know which we are doing, and to stand fast by our knowledge, is no easy matter. The safest course is to obey the law which says, 'Do no service for a bribe,' and let him who disobeys, if he be convicted, simply die. With a view to taxation, for various reasons, every man ought to have had his property valued: and the tribesmen should likewise bring a register of the yearly produce to the wardens of the country, that in this way there may be two valuations; and the public officers may use annually whichever on consideration they deem the best, whether they prefer to take a certain portion of the whole value, or of the annual revenue, after subtracting what is paid to the common tables.
If anyone knowingly receives something that has been stolen, they will face the same punishment as the thief. If someone shelters an exile, they will be punished with death. Every person should see the state's friends and enemies as their own friends and enemies. If anyone makes peace or declares war on their own without the state's authority, they, like those who shelter exiles, will face the death penalty. If any part of the city declares war or peace against anyone, the generals will charge those responsible, and if they're found guilty, their punishment will be death. Those who serve their country should do so without accepting gifts, and the idea that "people should receive gifts for good deeds, but not for bad ones" should not be tolerated; distinguishing between the two and remaining consistent is challenging. The best approach is to follow the law that states, "Don't do favors for a bribe," and anyone who disobeys this, upon conviction, should simply be put to death. Regarding taxation, every person should have their property assessed for various reasons; the tribal leaders should also submit a list of annual produce to the country's officials so that there are two assessments. The public officials may then use whichever they deem more appropriate each year, whether they choose to take a set portion of the total value or of the annual income after deducting what is paid to communal tables.
Touching offerings to the Gods, a moderate man should observe moderation in what he offers. Now the land and the hearth of the house of all men is sacred to all Gods; wherefore let no man dedicate them a second time to the Gods. Gold and silver, whether possessed by private persons or in temples, are in other cities provocative of envy, and ivory, the product of a dead body, is not a proper offering; brass and iron, again, are instruments of war; but of wood let a man bring what offering he likes, provided it be a single block, and in like manner of stone, to the public temples; of woven work let him not offer more than one woman can execute in a month. White is a colour suitable to the Gods, especially in woven works, but dyes should only be used for the adornments of war. The most divine of gifts are birds and images, and they should be such as one painter can execute in a single day. And let all other offerings follow a similar rule.
When it comes to offerings to the Gods, a reasonable person should practice moderation in what they give. The land and the home of every person is sacred to all Gods, so no one should dedicate them to the Gods more than once. Gold and silver, whether owned by individuals or kept in temples, can cause envy in other cities, and ivory, which comes from a dead body, isn't a fitting offering; brass and iron are weapons of war. Instead, a person can bring any wooden offering they like, as long as it's a single piece, and likewise with stone, for the public temples. For woven items, they shouldn't donate more than what one woman can create in a month. White is a suitable color for the Gods, especially in woven items, but dyes should only be used for war decorations. The most divine gifts are birds and images, and they should be something one painter can create in a single day. All other offerings should follow a similar guideline.
Now that the whole city has been divided into parts of which the nature and number have been described, and laws have been given about all the most important contracts as far as this was possible, the next thing will be to have justice done. The first of the courts shall consist of elected judges, who shall be chosen by the plaintiff and the defendant in common: these shall be called arbiters rather than judges. And in the second court there shall be judges of the villages and tribes corresponding to the twelvefold division of the land, and before these the litigants shall go to contend for greater damages, if the suit be not decided before the first judges; the defendant, if he be defeated the second time, shall pay a fifth more than the damages mentioned in the indictment; and if he find fault with his judges and would try a third time, let him carry the suit before the select judges, and if he be again defeated, let him pay the whole of the damages and half as much again. And the plaintiff, if when defeated before the first judges he persist in going on to the second, shall if he wins receive in addition to the damages a fifth part more, and if defeated he shall pay a like sum; but if he is not satisfied with the previous decision, and will insist on proceeding to a third court, then if he win he shall receive from the defendant the amount of the damages and, as I said before, half as much again, and the plaintiff, if he lose, shall pay half of the damages claimed. Now the assignment by lot of judges to courts and the completion of the number of them, and the appointment of servants to the different magistrates, and the times at which the several causes should be heard, and the votings and delays, and all the things that necessarily concern suits, and the order of causes, and the time in which answers have to be put in and parties are to appear—of these and other things akin to these we have indeed already spoken, but there is no harm in repeating what is right twice or thrice: All lesser and easier matters which the elder legislator has omitted may be supplied by the younger one. Private courts will be sufficiently regulated in this way, and the public and state courts, and those which the magistrates must use in the administration of their several offices, exist in many other states. Many very respectable institutions of this sort have been framed by good men, and from them the guardians of the law may by reflection derive what is necessary for the order of our new state, considering and correcting them, and bringing them to the test of experience, until every detail appears to be satisfactorily determined; and then putting the final seal upon them, and making them irreversible, they shall use them for ever afterwards. As to what relates to the silence of judges and the abstinence from words of evil omen and the reverse, and the different notions of the just and good and honourable which exist in our own as compared with other states, they have been partly mentioned already, and another part of them will be mentioned hereafter as we draw near the end. To all these matters he who would be an equal judge shall justly look, and he shall possess writings about them that he may learn them. For of all kinds of knowledge the knowledge of good laws has the greatest power of improving the learner; otherwise there would be no meaning in the divine and admirable law possessing a name akin to mind (nous, nomos). And of all other words, such as the praises and censures of individuals which occur in poetry and also in prose, whether written down or uttered in daily conversation, whether men dispute about them in the spirit of contention or weakly assent to them, as is often the case—of all these the one sure test is the writings of the legislator, which the righteous judge ought to have in his mind as the antidote of all other words, and thus make himself and the city stand upright, procuring for the good the continuance and increase of justice, and for the bad, on the other hand, a conversion from ignorance and intemperance, and in general from all unrighteousness, as far as their evil minds can be healed, but to those whose web of life is in reality finished, giving death, which is the only remedy for souls in their condition, as I may say truly again and again. And such judges and chiefs of judges will be worthy of receiving praise from the whole city.
Now that the entire city is divided into sections, with their nature and number described and laws established for the most important contracts as much as possible, the next step is to ensure justice is served. The first court will consist of elected arbiters, chosen jointly by the plaintiff and defendant, rather than traditional judges. The second court will include judges representing villages and tribes that align with the twelve divisions of the land. If a case isn’t resolved in the first court, litigants can bring it to the second court for larger damages. If the defendant loses again, they must pay an additional fifth of the damages listed in the indictment. If the defendant believes their judgment was unjust and wants to try again, they can take the case to the select judges. If they lose a third time, they must pay the full damages plus an extra half. Likewise, if the plaintiff, after losing in the first court, chooses to appeal to the second court and wins, they will receive the damages plus one-fifth more, but if they lose, they’ll owe the same amount. If the plaintiff is not satisfied with the second court’s ruling and opts for a third, their potential winnings would include the damages plus half again, but if they lose, they’ll owe half of the claimed damages. The assignment of judges, the completion of their numbers, the appointment of staff for different magistrates, and the scheduling of hearings are already discussed, but it’s worth repeating: any minor details left out by the earlier legislator can be clarified by the newer one. Private courts will be adequately regulated this way, and public and state courts, which magistrates use in their duties, exist in various other places. Many commendable systems have been created by good individuals, and from these, law guardians can adapt what’s needed for our new state's order, reflecting and refining them through experience until every detail is satisfactorily established. Then they can finalize these laws and make them unchangeable for future use. Regarding judges’ silence and their avoidance of ill-omened words, along with differing concepts of justice, goodness, and honor between our state and others, some of this has been mentioned and will be elaborated on as we approach the conclusion. Those aspiring to be fair judges should consider these matters and have writings about them for guidance, because among all types of knowledge, understanding good laws has the most power to uplift the learner. This significance is why the divine and admirable law shares a name similar to that of the mind (nous, nomos). As for other terms, such as the praises and criticisms found in poetry and prose—whether written or spoken, argued over or passively accepted— the ultimate benchmark should be the legislator's writings, which righteous judges should carry in their minds as a remedy against all other words. This will help them and the city to stand strong, ensuring justice for the good and guiding the misguided away from ignorance and excess, in general from all wrongdoing, as far as their flawed minds can be mended. For those whose lives are truly at an end, the only remedy is death, which I can repeat truthfully. Such judges and chief judges will earn praise from the entire city.
When the suits of the year are completed the following laws shall regulate their execution: In the first place, the judge shall assign to the party who wins the suit the whole property of him who loses, with the exception of mere necessaries, and the assignment shall be made through the herald immediately after each decision in the hearing of the judges; and when the month arrives following the month in which the courts are sitting, (unless the gainer of the suit has been previously satisfied) the court shall follow up the case, and hand over to the winner the goods of the loser; but if they find that he has not the means of paying, and the sum deficient is not less than a drachma, the insolvent person shall not have any right of going to law with any other man until he have satisfied the debt of the winning party; but other persons shall still have the right of bringing suits against him. And if any one after he is condemned refuses to acknowledge the authority which condemned him, let the magistrates who are thus deprived of their authority bring him before the court of the guardians of the law, and if he be cast, let him be punished with death, as a subverter of the whole state and of the laws.
Once the lawsuits of the year are concluded, the following rules will govern their execution: First, the judge will award the winner the entire property of the loser, excluding only what is necessary for basic living. This award will be announced by the herald right after each decision in front of the judges. When the month comes after the month in which the courts are in session (unless the winner has already received payment), the court will take action and give the winner the loser's possessions. However, if it's found that the loser can't pay, and the owed amount is at least a drachma, that person will lose the right to take legal action against anyone else until they settle the debt to the winning party; however, others can still sue him. If someone, after being found guilty, refuses to accept the authority that condemned him, the magistrates who have lost their authority should bring him to the court of law guardians, and if he is found guilty, he should be punished with death for undermining the entire state and its laws.
Thus a man is born and brought up, and after this manner he begets and brings up his own children, and has his share of dealings with other men, and suffers if he has done wrong to any one, and receives satisfaction if he has been wronged, and so at length in due time he grows old under the protection of the laws, and his end comes in the order of nature. Concerning the dead of either sex, the religious ceremonies which may fittingly be performed, whether appertaining to the Gods of the under-world or of this, shall be decided by the interpreters with absolute authority. Their sepulchres are not to be in places which are fit for cultivation, and there shall be no monuments in such spots, either large or small, but they shall occupy that part of the country which is naturally adapted for receiving and concealing the bodies of the dead with as little hurt as possible to the living. No man, living or dead, shall deprive the living of the sustenance which the earth, their foster-parent, is naturally inclined to provide for them. And let not the mound be piled higher than would be the work of five men completed in five days; nor shall the stone which is placed over the spot be larger than would be sufficient to receive the praises of the dead included in four heroic lines. Nor shall the laying out of the dead in the house continue for a longer time than is sufficient to distinguish between him who is in a trance only and him who is really dead, and speaking generally, the third day after death will be a fair time for carrying out the body to the sepulchre. Now we must believe the legislator when he tells us that the soul is in all respects superior to the body, and that even in life what makes each one of us to be what we are is only the soul; and that the body follows us about in the likeness of each of us, and therefore, when we are dead, the bodies of the dead are quite rightly said to be our shades or images; for the true and immortal being of each one of us which is called the soul goes on her way to other Gods, before them to give an account—which is an inspiring hope to the good, but very terrible to the bad, as the laws of our fathers tell us; and they also say that not much can be done in the way of helping a man after he is dead. But the living—he should be helped by all his kindred, that while in life he may be the holiest and justest of men, and after death may have no great sins to be punished in the world below. If this be true, a man ought not to waste his substance under the idea that all this lifeless mass of flesh which is in process of burial is connected with him; he should consider that the son, or brother, or the beloved one, whoever he may be, whom he thinks he is laying in the earth, has gone away to complete and fulfil his own destiny, and that his duty is rightly to order the present, and to spend moderately on the lifeless altar of the Gods below. But the legislator does not intend moderation to be taken in the sense of meanness. Let the law, then, be as follows: The expenditure on the entire funeral of him who is of the highest class, shall not exceed five minae; and for him who is of the second class, three minae, and for him who is of the third class, two minae, and for him who is of the fourth class, one mina, will be a fair limit of expense. The guardians of the law ought to take especial care of the different ages of life, whether childhood, or manhood, or any other age. And at the end of all, let there be some one guardian of the law presiding, who shall be chosen by the friends of the deceased to superintend, and let it be glory to him to manage with fairness and moderation what relates to the dead, and a discredit to him if they are not well managed. Let the laying out and other ceremonies be in accordance with custom, but to the statesman who adopts custom as his law we must give way in certain particulars. It would be monstrous for example that he should command any man to weep or abstain from weeping over the dead; but he may forbid cries of lamentation, and not allow the voice of the mourner to be heard outside the house; also, he may forbid the bringing of the dead body into the open streets, or the processions of mourners in the streets, and may require that before daybreak they should be outside the city. Let these, then, be our laws relating to such matters, and let him who obeys be free from penalty; but he who disobeys even a single guardian of the law shall be punished by them all with a fitting penalty. Other modes of burial, or again the denial of burial, which is to be refused in the case of robbers of temples and parricides and the like, have been devised and are embodied in the preceding laws, so that now our work of legislation is pretty nearly at an end; but in all cases the end does not consist in doing something or acquiring something or establishing something—the end will be attained and finally accomplished, when we have provided for the perfect and lasting continuance of our institutions; until then our creation is incomplete.
A man is raised, has children, engages with others, feels regret when he harms someone, and seeks justice if wronged. Eventually, he ages under the laws' protection, and his natural end comes. For both men and women who have died, the appropriate religious ceremonies—whether for the gods of the underworld or those above—will be decided by authorized interpreters. Their graves shouldn't be in places suitable for growing crops, and there should be no big or small monuments in those areas. Instead, they should be located where the land can naturally accommodate and conceal the dead with minimal disturbance to the living. No one, living or dead, should take away the resources that the earth, our nurturer, is inclined to provide. The burial mound should not exceed what five men can build in five days, and the stone placed over the grave should only be large enough to hold four lines of praise for the deceased. The body should not remain in the house longer than needed to distinguish between someone who is merely unconscious and someone who has truly died; typically, three days after death is a reasonable time to take the body to the grave. We must trust the legislator when he says that the soul is superior to the body and that, even in life, our essence comes from the soul. The body trails behind us like a shadow, and after death, it's right to refer to the deceased’s body as just that—our shades—because each soul journeys to another realm, where it must account for its life. This is a hopeful prospect for the virtuous but a daunting realization for the wicked, as our ancestors’ laws suggest. They also state that little can be done to assist someone after they’ve died. The living, however, should be supported by their family so that they can live righteously and avoid great sins that lead to punishment in the afterlife. If this is true, a person shouldn’t squander their wealth thinking that this lifeless body tied to them is all that remains; they should recognize that their loved one has gone on to fulfill their destiny, and their duty is to manage the present and to spend sensibly on the offerings for the dead. Yet, moderation should not be interpreted as stinginess. So, let the law state: the total funeral expenses for someone of the highest class should not exceed five minae; for the second class, three minae; for the third, two minae; and for the fourth class, one mina is a reasonable limit. The law’s guardians should pay special attention to all stages of life—childhood, adulthood, and beyond. Lastly, there should be one guardian selected by the deceased's friends, responsible for overseeing the arrangements, who will gain honor for fairly and reasonably managing the affairs of the dead and be held accountable if they are not properly handled. The body preparation and other rites should align with tradition, but the statesman, who follows custom as law, may adjust certain aspects. It would be inappropriate for him to order anyone to mourn or refrain from mourning, but he can prohibit loud cries of sorrow and ensure that mourning voices don’t carry outside the house. He can also ban bringing the body into public streets or allowing funeral processions during the day, requiring that they be out of the city before dawn. These, then, are our laws regarding such matters, and anyone who complies will face no penalties; however, those who defy even one law guardian will be punished suitably by all of them. Other burial methods, or the complete denial of burial for criminals like temple robbers or murderers, have been addressed in previous laws, so our legislative task is nearly complete. Ultimately, our goal is not just to act, acquire, or establish, but to ensure the lasting and effective continuity of our systems; until we achieve this, our work remains unfinished.
CLEINIAS: That is very good, Stranger; but I wish you would tell me more clearly what you mean.
CLEINIAS: That's great, Stranger; but I’d like you to explain what you mean more clearly.
ATHENIAN: O Cleinias, many things of old time were well said and sung; and the saying about the Fates was one of them.
ATHENIAN: Oh Cleinias, a lot of things from back in the day were spoken and sung well; and the saying about the Fates was one of them.
CLEINIAS: What is it?
CLEINIAS: What's that?
ATHENIAN: The saying that Lachesis or the giver of the lots is the first of them, and that Clotho or the spinster is the second of them, and that Atropos or the unchanging one is the third of them; and that she is the preserver of the things which we have spoken, and which have been compared in a figure to things woven by fire, they both (i.e. Atropos and the fire) producing the quality of unchangeableness. I am speaking of the things which in a state and government give not only health and salvation to the body, but law, or rather preservation of the law, in the soul; and, if I am not mistaken, this seems to be still wanting in our laws: we have still to see how we can implant in them this irreversible nature.
ATHENIAN: The saying goes that Lachesis, the one who assigns destinies, is the first of them, Clotho, the spinner, is the second, and Atropos, the one who doesn’t change, is the third. She is the guardian of the things we’ve discussed, which have been compared figuratively to things woven by fire; both Atropos and fire create a quality of permanence. I’m referring to the elements that in a state and government provide not just health and safety for the body, but also law, or more accurately, the preservation of law in the soul. If I'm right, it seems our laws still lack this essential permanence. We need to figure out how to instill this unchangeable quality in them.
CLEINIAS: It will be no small matter if we can only discover how such a nature can be implanted in anything.
CLEINIAS: It won't be easy if we can figure out how to instill such a nature in anything.
ATHENIAN: But it certainly can be; so much I clearly see.
ATHENIAN: But it definitely can be; I see that clearly.
CLEINIAS: Then let us not think of desisting until we have imparted this quality to our laws; for it is ridiculous, after a great deal of labour has been spent, to place a thing at last on an insecure foundation.
CLEINIAS: So let’s not consider stopping until we make sure our laws have this quality; it’s silly, after all the hard work we’ve put in, to put something in place that’s fundamentally unstable.
ATHENIAN: I approve of your suggestion, and am quite of the same mind with you.
ATHENIAN: I agree with your suggestion and feel the same way you do.
CLEINIAS: Very good: And now what, according to you, is to be the salvation of our government and of our laws, and how is it to be effected?
CLEINIAS: Great! So, what do you think is the solution for our government and our laws, and how is it going to happen?
ATHENIAN: Were we not saying that there must be in our city a council which was to be of this sort: The ten oldest guardians of the law, and all those who have obtained prizes of virtue, were to meet in the same assembly, and the council was also to include those who had visited foreign countries in the hope of hearing something that might be of use in the preservation of the laws, and who, having come safely home, and having been tested in these same matters, had proved themselves to be worthy to take part in the assembly—each of the members was to select some young man of not less than thirty years of age, he himself judging in the first instance whether the young man was worthy by nature and education, and then suggesting him to the others, and if he seemed to them also to be worthy they were to adopt him; but if not, the decision at which they arrived was to be kept a secret from the citizens at large, and, more especially, from the rejected candidate. The meeting of the council was to be held early in the morning, when everybody was most at leisure from all other business, whether public or private—was not something of this sort said by us before?
ATHENIAN: Weren't we saying that our city should have a council like this: The ten oldest guardians of the law, along with everyone who has won awards for virtue, would gather in the same assembly. This council would also include those who traveled abroad hoping to learn something useful for preserving our laws, and who, after returning home safely and proving themselves in these matters, were deemed worthy to join the assembly. Each member would choose a young man of at least thirty years old, assessing first whether the young man was worthy in terms of character and education, and then proposing him to the others. If the others agreed he was worthy, they would accept him; but if not, the decision would be kept secret from the overall citizenry, especially from the candidate who was not selected. The council meetings would take place early in the morning when everyone was least occupied with other business, public or private—didn't we mention something like this before?
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: Then, returning to the council, I would say further, that if we let it down to be the anchor of the state, our city, having everything which is suitable to her, will preserve all that we wish to preserve.
ATHENIAN: Then, going back to the council, I would add that if we allow it to become the anchor of the state, our city, having everything necessary for her, will keep all that we want to preserve.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by that?
ATHENIAN: Now is the time for me to speak the truth in all earnestness.
ATHENIAN: Now is the time for me to speak the truth sincerely.
CLEINIAS: Well said, and I hope that you will fulfil your intention.
CLEINIAS: Well said, and I hope you follow through on your plans.
ATHENIAN: Know, Cleinias, that everything, in all that it does, has a natural saviour, as of an animal the soul and the head are the chief saviours.
ATHENIAN: Understand, Cleinias, that everything, in all its actions, has a natural protector, just as an animal's soul and head are its main protectors.
CLEINIAS: Once more, what do you mean?
CLEINIAS: Can you say that again? What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: The well-being of those two is obviously the preservation of every living thing.
ATHENIAN: It's clear that the well-being of those two depends on the survival of every living thing.
CLEINIAS: How is that?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: The soul, besides other things, contains mind, and the head, besides other things, contains sight and hearing; and the mind, mingling with the noblest of the senses, and becoming one with them, may be truly called the salvation of all.
ATHENIAN: The soul, among other things, holds the mind, and the head, among other things, holds sight and hearing; and the mind, blending with the highest of the senses and uniting with them, can truly be called the salvation of all.
CLEINIAS: Yes, quite so.
CLEINIAS: Yes, exactly.
ATHENIAN: Yes, indeed; but with what is that intellect concerned which, mingling with the senses, is the salvation of ships in storms as well as in fair weather? In a ship, when the pilot and the sailors unite their perceptions with the piloting mind, do they not save both themselves and their craft?
ATHENIAN: Yes, absolutely; but what is that intellect focused on that, coming together with the senses, ensures the safety of ships in both storms and calm seas? On a ship, when the pilot and the crew combine their awareness with the knowledge of navigation, don't they protect themselves and their vessel?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: So true.
ATHENIAN: We do not want many illustrations about such matters: What aim would the general of an army, or what aim would a physician propose to himself, if he were seeking to attain salvation?
ATHENIAN: We don’t need a lot of examples for this: What goal would a general of an army have, or what goal would a doctor set for himself, if he were trying to achieve salvation?
CLEINIAS: Very good.
CLEINIAS: Awesome.
ATHENIAN: Does not the general aim at victory and superiority in war, and do not the physician and his assistants aim at producing health in the body?
ATHENIAN: Doesn't the general aim for victory and dominance in war, and don't the physician and their team aim to promote health in the body?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And a physician who is ignorant about the body, that is to say, who knows not that which we just now called health, or a general who knows not victory, or any others who are ignorant of the particulars of the arts which we mentioned, cannot be said to have understanding about any of these matters.
ATHENIAN: A doctor who doesn’t understand the body, meaning someone who doesn’t know what we just referred to as health, or a general who doesn’t know what victory is, or anyone else who is unaware of the specifics of the arts we discussed, can’t be considered knowledgeable about any of these topics.
CLEINIAS: They cannot.
CLEINIAS: They can't.
ATHENIAN: And what would you say of the state? If a person proves to be ignorant of the aim to which the statesman should look, ought he, in the first place, to be called a ruler at all; and further, will he ever be able to preserve that of which he does not even know the aim?
ATHENIAN: What do you think about the state? If someone shows they have no idea what the goal of a statesman should be, should we even call them a ruler? And on top of that, how could they ever maintain something they don't even understand the purpose of?
CLEINIAS: Impossible.
CLEINIAS: No way.
ATHENIAN: And therefore, if our settlement of the country is to be perfect, we ought to have some institution, which, as I was saying, will tell what is the aim of the state, and will inform us how we are to attain this, and what law or what man will advise us to that end. Any state which has no such institution is likely to be devoid of mind and sense, and in all her actions will proceed by mere chance.
ATHENIAN: So, if we want our settlement of the country to be complete, we need to have some kind of system that, as I mentioned, will clarify the purpose of the state and guide us on how to achieve it, including which laws or individuals will help us reach that goal. Any state without such a system is likely to lack intelligence and awareness, and its actions will just happen randomly.
CLEINIAS: Very true.
Totally true.
ATHENIAN: In which, then, of the parts or institutions of the state is any such guardian power to be found? Can we say?
ATHENIAN: So, where in the parts or institutions of the state can we find any kind of guardian power? Can we say?
CLEINIAS: I am not quite certain, Stranger; but I have a suspicion that you are referring to the assembly which you just now said was to meet at night.
CLEINIAS: I'm not really sure, Stranger, but I have a feeling that you're talking about the meeting you just mentioned that’s supposed to happen at night.
ATHENIAN: You understand me perfectly, Cleinias; and we must assume, as the argument implies, that this council possesses all virtue; and the beginning of virtue is not to make mistakes by guessing many things, but to look steadily at one thing, and on this to fix all our aims.
ATHENIAN: You get me completely, Cleinias; and we should assume, as the argument suggests, that this council has all virtues; and the start of virtue is not making mistakes by guessing about many things, but by focusing on one thing and directing all our goals towards it.
CLEINIAS: Quite true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: Then now we shall see why there is nothing wonderful in states going astray—the reason is that their legislators have such different aims; nor is there anything wonderful in some laying down as their rule of justice, that certain individuals should bear rule in the state, whether they be good or bad, and others that the citizens should be rich, not caring whether they are the slaves of other men or not. The tendency of others, again, is towards freedom; and some legislate with a view to two things at once—they want to be at the same time free and the lords of other states; but the wisest men, as they deem themselves to be, look to all these and similar aims, and there is no one of them which they exclusively honour, and to which they would have all things look.
ATHENIAN: So now we'll understand why it's not surprising that states can go wrong—the reason is that their lawmakers have such different goals. It's also not unusual for some to set their standard of justice based on certain individuals being in charge of the state, regardless of whether they are good or bad, while others think that citizens should be wealthy, not caring if they are enslaved by others. Some tend toward freedom; and some try to legislate for two things at once—they want to be both free and the rulers of other states; but those who consider themselves the wisest acknowledge all these various aims, yet no single one of them is the primary focus they choose to prioritize.
CLEINIAS: Then, Stranger, our former assertion will hold; for we were saying that laws generally should look to one thing only; and this, as we admitted, was rightly said to be virtue.
CLEINIAS: Then, Stranger, what we said before still stands; we were saying that laws should focus on just one thing, and we agreed that this should be virtue.
ATHENIAN: Yes.
ATHENIAN: Yeah.
CLEINIAS: And we said that virtue was of four kinds?
CLEINIAS: So we said that there are four types of virtue?
ATHENIAN: Quite true.
Athenian: Totally true.
CLEINIAS: And that mind was the leader of the four, and that to her the three other virtues and all other things ought to have regard?
CLEINIAS: So that mind was the leader of the four, and that the three other virtues and everything else should pay attention to her?
ATHENIAN: You follow me capitally, Cleinias, and I would ask you to follow me to the end, for we have already said that the mind of the pilot, the mind of the physician and of the general look to that one thing to which they ought to look; and now we may turn to mind political, of which, as of a human creature, we will ask a question: O wonderful being, and to what are you looking? The physician is able to tell his single aim in life, but you, the superior, as you declare yourself to be, of all intelligent beings, when you are asked are not able to tell. Can you, Megillus, and you, Cleinias, say distinctly what is the aim of mind political, in return for the many explanations of things which I have given you?
ATHENIAN: You’re following me really well, Cleinias, and I’d like you to stick with me until the end, because we’ve already talked about how the minds of pilots, physicians, and generals focus on one essential thing they should be concerned with. Now, let’s look at the political mind, which, like a human being, prompts us to ask this question: Oh amazing being, what are you focusing on? The physician can clearly state his main goal in life, but you, who claim to be superior to all intelligent beings, when asked, cannot provide an answer. Can you, Megillus, and you, Cleinias, clearly articulate the goal of the political mind, considering all the explanations I’ve given you?
CLEINIAS: We cannot, Stranger.
CLEINIAS: We can't, Stranger.
ATHENIAN: Well, but ought we not to desire to see it, and to see where it is to be found?
ATHENIAN: Well, shouldn’t we want to see it and find out where it is?
CLEINIAS: For example, where?
CLEINIAS: For instance, where?
ATHENIAN: For example, we were saying that there are four kinds of virtue, and as there are four of them, each of them must be one.
ATHENIAN: For example, we were saying that there are four types of virtue, and since there are four of them, each one must be singular.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And further, all four of them we call one; for we say that courage is virtue, and that prudence is virtue, and the same of the two others, as if they were in reality not many but one, that is, virtue.
ATHENIAN: And also, we refer to all four of them as one; because we say that courage is a virtue, and that prudence is a virtue, and the same goes for the other two, as if they were actually not separate but one, which is virtue.
CLEINIAS: Quite so.
CLEINIAS: Exactly.
ATHENIAN: There is no difficulty in seeing in what way the two differ from one another, and have received two names, and so of the rest. But there is more difficulty in explaining why we call these two and the rest of them by the single name of virtue.
ATHENIAN: It's easy to see how the two are different from each other, and how they have been given two names, just like the others. But it's harder to explain why we refer to both of these and the others with the single term virtue.
CLEINIAS: How do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean?
ATHENIAN: I have no difficulty in explaining what I mean. Let us distribute the subject into questions and answers.
ATHENIAN: I can easily explain what I mean. Let’s break the topic down into questions and answers.
CLEINIAS: Once more, what do you mean?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean this time?
ATHENIAN: Ask me what is that one thing which I call virtue, and then again speak of as two, one part being courage and the other wisdom. I will tell you how that occurs: One of them has to do with fear; in this the beasts also participate, and quite young children—I mean courage; for a courageous temper is a gift of nature and not of reason. But without reason there never has been, or is, or will be a wise and understanding soul; it is of a different nature.
ATHENIAN: Ask me what that one thing I call virtue is, and then let’s discuss it as two parts: one being courage and the other wisdom. I'll explain how that works: One of them relates to fear; in this, animals and even very young children share in it—I'm talking about courage; because a courageous spirit is a natural gift, not something that comes from reasoning. However, without reason, there has never been, is not, and will not be a wise and understanding person; it belongs to a different nature.
CLEINIAS: That is true.
CLEINIAS: That's true.
ATHENIAN: I have now told you in what way the two are different, and do you in return tell me in what way they are one and the same. Suppose that I ask you in what way the four are one, and when you have answered me, you will have a right to ask of me in return in what way they are four; and then let us proceed to enquire whether in the case of things which have a name and also a definition to them, true knowledge consists in knowing the name only and not the definition. Can he who is good for anything be ignorant of all this without discredit where great and glorious truths are concerned?
ATHENIAN: I've just explained how the two are different, so now please tell me how they are the same. Imagine I ask you how the four are one; once you answer, you'll have the right to ask me how they're four. Then let's explore whether true knowledge in things that have both a name and a definition comes from just knowing the name and not the definition. Can anyone who is capable really ignore all this when it comes to significant and profound truths?
CLEINIAS: I suppose not.
CLEINIAS: I guess not.
ATHENIAN: And is there anything greater to the legislator and the guardian of the law, and to him who thinks that he excels all other men in virtue, and has won the palm of excellence, than these very qualities of which we are now speaking—courage, temperance, wisdom, justice?
ATHENIAN: Is there anything more important for the lawmaker and the protector of the law, and for someone who believes they are better than everyone else in virtue and have achieved the highest excellence, than these qualities we are discussing right now—courage, self-control, wisdom, and justice?
CLEINIAS: How can there be anything greater?
CLEINIAS: How could there be anything better?
ATHENIAN: And ought not the interpreters, the teachers, the lawgivers, the guardians of the other citizens, to excel the rest of mankind, and perfectly to show him who desires to learn and know or whose evil actions require to be punished and reproved, what is the nature of virtue and vice? Or shall some poet who has found his way into the city, or some chance person who pretends to be an instructor of youth, show himself to be better than him who has won the prize for every virtue? And can we wonder that when the guardians are not adequate in speech or action, and have no adequate knowledge of virtue, the city being unguarded should experience the common fate of cities in our day?
ATHENIAN: Shouldn't the interpreters, the teachers, the lawmakers, and the guardians of the other citizens be superior to everyone else and clearly show those who want to learn and understand, or those whose wrongful actions need to be punished and corrected, what virtue and vice really are? Or will some poet who has made his way into the city, or some random person pretending to teach the youth, prove to be better than someone who has earned recognition for all their virtues? And can we really be surprised that when the guardians lack skills in speech or action and have no real understanding of virtue, the city ends up facing the same unfortunate fate as other cities today?
CLEINIAS: Wonder! no.
CLEINIAS: No way!
ATHENIAN: Well, then, must we do as we said? Or can we give our guardians a more precise knowledge of virtue in speech and action than the many have? or is there any way in which our city can be made to resemble the head and senses of rational beings because possessing such a guardian power?
ATHENIAN: So, do we have to go along with what we said? Or can we give our guardians a clearer understanding of virtue in both talk and actions than most people have? Is there any way we can make our city resemble the mind and senses of rational beings by having such a powerful guardian?
CLEINIAS: What, Stranger, is the drift of your comparison?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean by your comparison, Stranger?
ATHENIAN: Do we not see that the city is the trunk, and are not the younger guardians, who are chosen for their natural gifts, placed in the head of the state, having their souls all full of eyes, with which they look about the whole city? They keep watch and hand over their perceptions to the memory, and inform the elders of all that happens in the city; and those whom we compared to the mind, because they have many wise thoughts—that is to say, the old men—take counsel, and making use of the younger men as their ministers, and advising with them—in this way both together truly preserve the whole state: Shall this or some other be the order of our state? Are all our citizens to be equal in acquirements, or shall there be special persons among them who have received a more careful training and education?
ATHENIAN: Don't we see that the city is like the trunk of a tree, and the younger guardians, chosen for their natural abilities, are at the head of the state, their souls full of awareness, observing the entire city? They keep watch and pass their observations to the memory, informing the elders of everything that happens in the city. Those we likened to the mind, because they have many wise thoughts—that is, the older men—counsel and utilize the younger men as their assistants, consulting with them. Together, they truly preserve the entire state: Should this be the structure of our state, or should it be different? Will all our citizens have equal knowledge and skills, or will there be certain individuals among them who have received more extensive training and education?
CLEINIAS: That they should be equal, my good sir, is impossible.
CLEINIAS: It's impossible for them to be equal, my good sir.
ATHENIAN: Then we ought to proceed to some more exact training than any which has preceded.
ATHENIAN: Then we should move on to some more precise training than what we've done before.
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
CLEINIAS: For sure.
ATHENIAN: And must not that of which we are in need be the one to which we were just now alluding?
ATHENIAN: And isn’t it obvious that what we need is exactly what we were just talking about?
CLEINIAS: Very true.
CLEINIAS: Totally true.
ATHENIAN: Did we not say that the workman or guardian, if he be perfect in every respect, ought not only to be able to see the many aims, but he should press onward to the one? This he should know, and knowing, order all things with a view to it.
ATHENIAN: Didn't we say that the worker or caretaker, if he is truly perfect in every way, should not only be able to see all the different goals but also focus on the one? He should understand this, and knowing it, arrange everything in relation to that goal.
CLEINIAS: True.
CLEINIAS: Right.
ATHENIAN: And can any one have a more exact way of considering or contemplating anything, than the being able to look at one idea gathered from many different things?
ATHENIAN: Is there a better way to think about or understand something than being able to see one idea coming together from many different things?
CLEINIAS: Perhaps not.
CLEINIAS: Maybe not.
ATHENIAN: Not 'Perhaps not,' but 'Certainly not,' my good sir, is the right answer. There never has been a truer method than this discovered by any man.
ATHENIAN: Not 'Maybe not,' but 'Definitely not,' my good sir, is the right answer. There has never been a more accurate method discovered by any man.
CLEINIAS: I bow to your authority, Stranger; let us proceed in the way which you propose.
CLEINIAS: I respect your authority, Stranger; let's go ahead with the plan you suggested.
ATHENIAN: Then, as would appear, we must compel the guardians of our divine state to perceive, in the first place, what that principle is which is the same in all the four—the same, as we affirm, in courage and in temperance, and in justice and in prudence, and which, being one, we call as we ought, by the single name of virtue. To this, my friends, we will, if you please, hold fast, and not let go until we have sufficiently explained what that is to which we are to look, whether to be regarded as one, or as a whole, or as both, or in whatever way. Are we likely ever to be in a virtuous condition, if we cannot tell whether virtue is many, or four, or one? Certainly, if we take counsel among ourselves, we shall in some way contrive that this principle has a place amongst us; but if you have made up your mind that we should let the matter alone, we will.
ATHENIAN: Then, it seems we must make sure the guardians of our sacred state understand, first of all, what that principle is that is the same in all four areas—same, as we believe, in courage, temperance, justice, and prudence. This single principle, which we refer to appropriately as virtue, should be our focus. My friends, let’s hold on to this idea and not let go until we’ve clearly explained what we’re looking at—whether it’s one thing, a whole, or both, or however else it can be viewed. Can we ever truly be virtuous if we can’t determine whether virtue is many, four, or one? Certainly, if we discuss this among ourselves, we can find a way for this principle to take root in us; but if you’ve decided we should leave it be, we will.
CLEINIAS: We must not, Stranger, by the God of strangers I swear that we must not, for in our opinion you speak most truly; but we should like to know how you will accomplish your purpose.
CLEINIAS: We can’t, Stranger, I swear by the God of strangers that we can’t, because we believe you’re speaking the truth; but we’re curious about how you plan to achieve your goal.
ATHENIAN: Wait a little before you ask; and let us, first of all, be quite agreed with one another that the purpose has to be accomplished.
ATHENIAN: Hold on a moment before you ask; let's first make sure we're all on the same page that we need to achieve our goal.
CLEINIAS: Certainly, it ought to be, if it can be.
CLEINIAS: Definitely, it should be, if it's possible.
ATHENIAN: Well, and about the good and the honourable, are we to take the same view? Are our guardians only to know that each of them is many, or also how and in what way they are one?
ATHENIAN: So, what about the good and the honorable? Should we think the same way? Should our guardians just understand that each of them is many, or should they also know how and in what way they are one?
CLEINIAS: They must consider also in what sense they are one.
CLEINIAS: They should also think about what it means for them to be one.
ATHENIAN: And are they to consider only, and to be unable to set forth what they think?
ATHENIAN: Are they just supposed to think about it and not share their opinions?
CLEINIAS: Certainly not; that would be the state of a slave.
CLEINIAS: Definitely not; that would mean being a slave.
ATHENIAN: And may not the same be said of all good things—that the true guardians of the laws ought to know the truth about them, and to be able to interpret them in words, and carry them out in action, judging of what is and of what is not well, according to nature?
ATHENIAN: Isn’t it true that the same applies to all good things—that the true guardians of the laws should understand the truth about them, be able to express it in words, and put it into action, judging what is right and what is wrong based on nature?
CLEINIAS: Certainly.
Sure.
ATHENIAN: Is not the knowledge of the Gods which we have set forth with so much zeal one of the noblest sorts of knowledge—to know that they are, and know how great is their power, as far as in man lies? We do indeed excuse the mass of the citizens, who only follow the voice of the laws, but we refuse to admit as guardians any who do not labour to obtain every possible evidence that there is respecting the Gods; our city is forbidden and not allowed to choose as a guardian of the law, or to place in the select order of virtue, him who is not an inspired man, and has not laboured at these things.
ATHENIAN: Isn't the understanding of the Gods that we've passionately discussed one of the highest forms of knowledge—to recognize their existence and comprehend their immense power, as much as it's possible for humans? We do excuse the majority of citizens, who simply adhere to the laws, but we won't accept anyone as guardians who doesn't strive to gather every piece of evidence available about the Gods; our city is not permitted to choose as a guardian of the law, or to include in the elite circle of virtue, anyone who isn't inspired and hasn't put in the effort to explore these matters.
CLEINIAS: It is certainly just, as you say, that he who is indolent about such matters or incapable should be rejected, and that things honourable should be put away from him.
CLEINIAS: It’s definitely fair, as you say, that someone who is lazy about these things or unable to handle them should be set aside, and that honorable things should be kept away from him.
ATHENIAN: Are we assured that there are two things which lead men to believe in the Gods, as we have already stated?
ATHENIAN: Are we sure that there are two things that make people believe in the Gods, as we've already mentioned?
CLEINIAS: What are they?
CLEINIAS: What are these?
ATHENIAN: One is the argument about the soul, which has been already mentioned—that it is the eldest and most divine of all things, to which motion attaining generation gives perpetual existence; the other was an argument from the order of the motion of the stars, and of all things under the dominion of the mind which ordered the universe. If a man look upon the world not lightly or ignorantly, there was never any one so godless who did not experience an effect opposite to that which the many imagine. For they think that those who handle these matters by the help of astronomy, and the accompanying arts of demonstration, may become godless, because they see, as far as they can see, things happening by necessity, and not by an intelligent will accomplishing good.
ATHENIAN: One argument concerns the soul, which has already been mentioned—that it is the oldest and most divine of all things, to which the ability to move gives it everlasting existence; the other argument involves the orderly motion of the stars and everything else governed by the mind that organizes the universe. If a person looks at the world seriously and not naively, there has never been anyone so irreverent that they didn’t feel an effect opposite to what most people believe. They think that those who study these matters with the help of astronomy and related methods may become irreverent because they observe, as far as they can discern, that things happen out of necessity rather than through an intelligent will working towards good.
CLEINIAS: But what is the fact?
CLEINIAS: But what’s the real deal?
ATHENIAN: Just the opposite, as I said, of the opinion which once prevailed among men, that the sun and stars are without soul. Even in those days men wondered about them, and that which is now ascertained was then conjectured by some who had a more exact knowledge of them—that if they had been things without soul, and had no mind, they could never have moved with numerical exactness so wonderful; and even at that time some ventured to hazard the conjecture that mind was the orderer of the universe. But these same persons again mistaking the nature of the soul, which they conceived to be younger and not older than the body, once more overturned the world, or rather, I should say, themselves; for the bodies which they saw moving in heaven all appeared to be full of stones, and earth, and many other lifeless substances, and to these they assigned the causes of all things. Such studies gave rise to much atheism and perplexity, and the poets took occasion to be abusive—comparing the philosophers to she-dogs uttering vain howlings, and talking other nonsense of the same sort. But now, as I said, the case is reversed.
ATHENIAN: It’s the complete opposite of what people used to think—that the sun and stars are without a soul. Back then, people were curious about them, and what we now know was once speculated by those who had a deeper understanding—that if they were soulless and mindless, they couldn't possibly move with such remarkable precision. Even back then, some dared to suggest that mind was what organized the universe. However, these same individuals misunderstood the nature of the soul, thinking it was younger than the body, which led them to turn the world upside down, or rather, to turn themselves upside down. They saw the bodies in the sky as made up of stones, earth, and many other lifeless things, and they attributed all things to these materials. Such studies sparked a lot of atheism and confusion, and poets seized the chance to mock—comparing philosophers to howling she-dogs and other similar nonsense. But now, as I said, that’s all changed.
CLEINIAS: How so?
CLEINIAS: Why is that?
ATHENIAN: No man can be a true worshipper of the Gods who does not know these two principles—that the soul is the eldest of all things which are born, and is immortal and rules over all bodies; moreover, as I have now said several times, he who has not contemplated the mind of nature which is said to exist in the stars, and gone through the previous training, and seen the connexion of music with these things, and harmonized them all with laws and institutions, is not able to give a reason of such things as have a reason. And he who is unable to acquire this in addition to the ordinary virtues of a citizen, can hardly be a good ruler of a whole state; but he should be the subordinate of other rulers. Wherefore, Cleinias and Megillus, let us consider whether we may not add to all the other laws which we have discussed this further one—that the nocturnal assembly of the magistrates, which has also shared in the whole scheme of education proposed by us, shall be a guard set according to law for the salvation of the state. Shall we propose this?
ATHENIAN: No one can truly worship the Gods without understanding two key concepts: that the soul is the oldest of all created things, is immortal, and governs all bodies. Additionally, as I’ve mentioned multiple times, anyone who hasn't contemplated the nature of the universe, as it’s believed to be reflected in the stars, and who hasn’t undergone the necessary training, observed the connection between music and these principles, and brought them all into harmony with laws and institutions, cannot provide a logical explanation for matters that require one. Someone who is unable to gain this knowledge, alongside the usual virtues of a citizen, can hardly be a good leader of an entire state; instead, they should follow other leaders. Therefore, Cleinias and Megillus, let’s think about whether we should add this further law to all the others we’ve discussed—that the nocturnal assembly of the magistrates, which has also been a part of the overall educational plan we proposed, shall serve as a legally established guard for the state's welfare. Shall we suggest this?
CLEINIAS: Certainly, my good friend, we will if the thing is in any degree possible.
CLEINIAS: Of course, my good friend, we will if it's at all possible.
ATHENIAN: Let us make a common effort to gain such an object; for I too will gladly share in the attempt. Of these matters I have had much experience, and have often considered them, and I dare say that I shall be able to find others who will also help.
ATHENIAN: Let's work together to achieve this goal; I’m more than happy to contribute to the effort. I have a lot of experience with these issues and have thought about them often, and I'm confident I can find others who will help too.
CLEINIAS: I agree, Stranger, that we should proceed along the road in which God is guiding us; and how we can proceed rightly has now to be investigated and explained.
CLEINIAS: I agree, Stranger, that we should follow the path that God is leading us on; and we need to look into and clarify how we can move forward correctly.
ATHENIAN: O Megillus and Cleinias, about these matters we cannot legislate further until the council is constituted; when that is done, then we will determine what authority they shall have of their own; but the explanation of how this is all to be ordered would only be given rightly in a long discourse.
ATHENIAN: O Megillus and Cleinias, we can't make any more laws about these issues until the council is set up; once that's done, we’ll figure out what powers they will have. However, explaining how everything will be arranged would require a lengthy discussion.
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, and what new thing is this?
CLEINIAS: What do you mean, and what is this new thing?
ATHENIAN: In the first place, a list would have to be made out of those who by their ages and studies and dispositions and habits are well fitted for the duty of a guardian. In the next place, it will not be easy for them to discover themselves what they ought to learn, or become the disciple of one who has already made the discovery. Furthermore, to write down the times at which, and during which, they ought to receive the several kinds of instruction, would be a vain thing; for the learners themselves do not know what is learned to advantage until the knowledge which is the result of learning has found a place in the soul of each. And so these details, although they could not be truly said to be secret, might be said to be incapable of being stated beforehand, because when stated they would have no meaning.
ATHENIAN: First, we would need to create a list of those who, based on their ages, studies, personalities, and habits, are well-suited for the role of a guardian. Next, it will be difficult for them to figure out what they should learn, or to become a student of someone who has already figured it out. Additionally, writing down the times when they should receive different kinds of instruction would be pointless; the learners themselves don’t know what is beneficial to learn until the knowledge gained has truly settled in their minds. Therefore, while these details might not be completely secret, they can be considered impossible to define in advance, because when spelled out, they wouldn’t hold any real significance.
CLEINIAS: What then are we to do, Stranger, under these circumstances?
CLEINIAS: So what are we supposed to do, Stranger, in this situation?
ATHENIAN: As the proverb says, the answer is no secret, but open to all of us: We must risk the whole on the chance of throwing, as they say, thrice six or thrice ace, and I am willing to share with you the danger by stating and explaining to you my views about education and nurture, which is the question coming to the surface again. The danger is not a slight or ordinary one, and I would advise you, Cleinias, in particular, to see to the matter; for if you order rightly the city of the Magnetes, or whatever name God may give it, you will obtain the greatest glory; or at any rate you will be thought the most courageous of men in the estimation of posterity. Dear companions, if this our divine assembly can only be established, to them we will hand over the city; none of the present company of legislators, as I may call them, would hesitate about that. And the state will be perfected and become a waking reality, which a little while ago we attempted to create as a dream and in idea only, mingling together reason and mind in one image, in the hope that our citizens might be duly mingled and rightly educated; and being educated, and dwelling in the citadel of the land, might become perfect guardians, such as we have never seen in all our previous life, by reason of the saving virtue which is in them.
ATHENIAN: As the saying goes, the answer isn’t a mystery; it's clear for all of us: We must be willing to risk everything for the chance of achieving something great, like rolling three sixes or three aces. I'm ready to share my thoughts with you about education and upbringing, which is the topic that's coming up again. This is no small or ordinary challenge, and I especially urge you, Cleinias, to take it seriously; if you manage the city of the Magnetes—or whatever name God gives it—correctly, you'll gain immense glory. At the very least, people will regard you as one of the bravest men in history. Dear friends, if we can establish this divine assembly, we will pass the city into their hands; none of the current lawmakers would hesitate to do that. The state will be perfected and become a reality, which not long ago we only envisioned as a dream, combining reason and intellect into one vision, hoping that our citizens might be properly integrated and well-educated; and by being educated, living in the heart of the land, they might become ideal guardians, unlike any we've seen in our past, due to the saving virtue within them.
MEGILLUS: Dear Cleinias, after all that has been said, either we must detain the Stranger, and by supplications and in all manner of ways make him share in the foundation of the city, or we must give up the undertaking.
MEGILLUS: Dear Cleinias, after everything that's been discussed, we either have to hold onto the Stranger and persuade him in every possible way to get involved in building the city, or we have to abandon the project.
CLEINIAS: Very true, Megillus; and you must join with me in detaining him.
CLEINIAS: That's absolutely right, Megillus; and you need to help me keep him here.
MEGILLUS: I will.
Sure thing.
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